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Upside-Down Sensors Caused Proton-M Rocket Crash

Michi writes "According to Anatoly Zak, the crash of the Russion Proton rocket on 1 July was apparently caused by several angular velocity sensors having been installed upside down. From the source: 'Each of those sensors had an arrow that was supposed to point toward the top of the vehicle, however multiple sensors on the failed rocket were pointing downward instead.' It seems amazing that something as fundamental as this was not caught during quality control. Even more amazing is that the design of the sensors permits them to be installed in the wrong orientation in the first place. Even the simplest of mechanical interlocks (such as a notch at one end that must be matched with a corresponding projection) could have prevented the accident." A review of the quality control procedures used by the contractors responsible is underway.

323 comments

  1. The quality conrol problems... by He+Who+Has+No+Name · · Score: 2, Insightful

    ...aren't so amazing when you look at the track record of Russian manufacturing.

    1. Re:The quality conrol problems... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Actually, the Russians can make quality products, provided they are paid what they are owed and on time.

    2. Re:The quality conrol problems... by SoldierII · · Score: 0

      Actually, the Russians can make quality products, provided they are paid what they are owed and on time.

      I bet there was some "extra payment" that was not paid... and whoops, you know things happen...

    3. Re:The quality conrol problems... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Funny

      Quality Control in Russia basically consists of hitting it with a mallet, and if it doesn't fall apart on impact, it passes.

    4. Re:The quality conrol problems... by PetiePooo · · Score: 5, Informative

      ...aren't so amazing when you look at the track record of Russian manufacturing.

      Before we Americans point too many fingers, let's not forget NASA is not immune to similar mistakes.

    5. Re:The quality conrol problems... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Do you actually know what you're talking about? Their manufacturing is excellent in many ways. For example, they are one of three countries (Russia, US, China) in the world that can smelt titanium.

    6. Re:The quality conrol problems... by Steve_Ussler · · Score: 1

      Not just manufacturingtheir Sukhoi jet had a major crash.

    7. Re:The quality conrol problems... by ackthpt · · Score: 1

      Actually, the Russians can make quality products, provided they are paid what they are owed and on time.

      I bet there was some "extra payment" that was not paid... and whoops, you know things happen...

      That may be, but consider this - do you want to

      • Appear on Putin's Naughty List
      • Be elevated to the top of Putin's Naughty List

      It won't be a lump of coal he will be bringing.

      --

      A feeling of having made the same mistake before: Deja Foobar
    8. Re:The quality conrol problems... by slashmydots · · Score: 1

      My favorite part of that one was the crash was investigated by the MIB - Mishap Invetigation Board and definitely not Men in Black.

    9. Re:The quality conrol problems... by ArcadeMan · · Score: 3, Insightful

      There's a difference between true communism and corrupt, dictatorial regimes.

      For those too lazy to click on the link:

      Communism (from Latin communis - common, universal) is a revolutionary socialist movement to create a classless, moneyless and stateless social order structured upon common ownership of the means of production, as well as a social, political and economic ideology that aims at the establishment of this social order.

      A perfect example of true communism applied to a specific field would be open-source software.
      A perfect example of corruption (on the capitalism side, too) would be Microsoft, threatening computer manufacturers about increasing the cost of Windows if they offered Linux options.

    10. Re:The quality conrol problems... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Do you actually know what you're talking about? Their manufacturing is excellent in many ways. For example, they are one of three countries (Russia, US, China) in the world that can smelt titanium.

      Do you? Because that's simply not true.

      There are many Titanium smelters around the world. Just one of our mining clients has one in Canada and in South Africa, and there are many more mining companies mining titanium.

    11. Re:The quality conrol problems... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Google just had an outage. Therefore don't buy coffee in America.

    12. Re:The quality conrol problems... by LordLimecat · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Communism (n) - an unattainable standard that is constantly held up as a model of perfection despite having no functional real world example past or present. Related entries: No True Scotsman; Ivory Tower Intellectualism.

    13. Re:The quality conrol problems... by Joiseybill · · Score: 1
      Probably outsourced to WalMart, anyhow. Even a communist space agency has a budget, and why not use OTS spare parts from one of the American Government's largest suppliers?

      http://www.theonion.com/articles/walmart-wants-republican-president,15517/ http://www.theonion.com/articles/dhs-teams-up-with-walmart,18722/

      OR ( inclusive or) : over-educated engineers assumed the arrows were the spin state of the subatomic detectors inside. A quasi-random distribution of Up and Down would be required to determine the quantum state of orientation. http://news.phy.duke.edu/2012/02/spinning-quarks-yield-clues-to-orbital-motion/

    14. Re:The quality conrol problems... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
      Yes, the track record of beating you in almost every milestone and scaring you so much you spent half your GDP on "defense" for decades.

      How's American "manufacturing" these days? Real estate bubbles, movies, financial scams, yeah?

    15. Re:The quality conrol problems... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      'Even the simplest of mechanical interlocks (such as a notch at one end that must be matched with a corresponding projection) could have prevented the accident.'

      Then the "projections" would have been installed upside-down :)

    16. Re:The quality conrol problems... by dm6079 · · Score: 1

      ...aren't so amazing when you look at the track record of Russian manufacturing.

      Before we Americans point too many fingers, let's not forget NASA is not immune to similar mistakes.

      I was not aware that Lockheed-Martin was also working on Russian launch vehicles ...

    17. Re:The quality conrol problems... by Canazza · · Score: 2

      That's BS.

      There's a Titanium smelting plant in Redditch. Granted, it's Russian owned, but still, it's in the UK.

      --
      It pays to be obvious, especially if you have a reputation for being subtle.
    18. Re:The quality conrol problems... by K.+S.+Kyosuke · · Score: 2

      A perfect example of true communism applied to a specific field would be open-source software.

      You sure about that? You can't apply communism "to a specific field". That would be like saying that disaster relief volunteers are an example of communism. Also, I'm pretty sure that my means of software production, namely my brain, is not subject to common ownership. Unless somebody's borrowing it in secret whenever I'm asleep, that is.

      --
      Ezekiel 23:20
    19. Re:The quality conrol problems... by internerdj · · Score: 1

      Communism would be a great system if only it didn't have people in it to screw it up with corruption and greed. You know, just like Capitalism.

    20. Re:The quality conrol problems... by KernelMuncher · · Score: 1

      don't forget this one - the standard / metric measurement confusion which caused the crash of the NASA Mars orbiter http://www.cnn.com/TECH/space/9909/30/mars.metric/

    21. Re:The quality conrol problems... by Hognoxious · · Score: 1, Informative

      Communism(n) [also commernussum, comianizzem] - Anything that we don't do in the USA, such as believing that the Earth is more than 6,000 years old.

      --
      Confucius say, "Find worm in apple - bad. Find half a worm - worse."
    22. Re:The quality conrol problems... by 0123456 · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Communism (n) - an unattainable standard that is constantly held up as a model of perfection despite having no functional real world example past or present.

      Sorry, but that's nonsense. All you need to do to create perfect communism is kill everyone else so no-one can disagree with you (you can't just kill the ones who disagree, because the others might only be pretending to agree).

      Stalin made a pretty good attempt, but didn't quite succeed.

    23. Re:The quality conrol problems... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      1/10

    24. Re:The quality conrol problems... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You mean the one where NASA worked with a university to let the students do a small intern project that involved a bit of math and the students decided to use imperial instead of metric?

      What kind of "scientist" uses imperial over metric?

    25. Re:The quality conrol problems... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      So the Russians didn't launch Sputnik, put the first man in orbit, the first woman in orbit, the first orbital docking, no? They beat America almost every step of the way with their inferior manufacturing. And if America was so sure of the inferiority of Russian manufacturing, why did America build up such huge defenses?

    26. Re:The quality conrol problems... by CeasedCaring · · Score: 1

      Before we Americans point too many fingers, let's not forget NASA is not immune to similar mistakes.

      The company I work for made the Mass Spectrometer that NASA used to sift the spacey stuff from the deserty stuff, once they'd scraped all the bits up.

    27. Re:The quality conrol problems... by bhcompy · · Score: 1

      Everyone is on his naughty list, it's just being elevated that matters

    28. Re:The quality conrol problems... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Don't you have someplace to be goose stepping?

    29. Re:The quality conrol problems... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      How about Australian aboriginal society?

    30. Re:The quality conrol problems... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Damn... so when I buy Sam Adams that was brewed in the UK, I can't say it's one of the good American beers?

    31. Re:The quality conrol problems... by jellomizer · · Score: 3, Insightful

      It looked good on Paper doesn't it.

      However it rarely works for a long time or with a lot of people.

      The problem is that we live in a world of scarcity, we can't get all that stuff that we want, or need. The communist system tries to make everything equal, however that means everyone will be living in scarcity, and not really having what they need or want. Because everyone will be wanting, it will open the door for someone(s) to cheat the system and try to get more, once they have more they will hold on to it. And the system begins to fail.

      Software like Open Source tends to work better, because there isn't a limit in supply. You can copy share make a copy of the copy and continue on and on. There is no scarcity in the Open Source Model.

      --
      If something is so important that you feel the need to post it on the internet... It probably isn't that important.
    32. Re:The quality conrol problems... by Immerman · · Score: 4, Insightful

      >That would be like saying that disaster relief volunteers are an example of communism
      Actually that sounds about right to me. "From each according to their ability, to each according to their need" and all that.

      Most family households also run on at least partially communist principles. Luxuries may need to be at least partially earned (or not, plenty of douches with entitlement issues out there), but it's a sad family where everyone's *needs* aren't taken care of first.

      The problem with communism seems to be that it doesn't seem to scale well beyond the tribe/monastery/commune level. Once the population gets too large to allow for effective communal decision making, communal ownership tends to become de-facto ownership by the decision makers, massively exacerbating the problem of corruption.

      --
      --- Most topics have many sides worth arguing, allow me to take one opposite you.
    33. Re:The quality conrol problems... by wagnerrp · · Score: 4, Interesting

      Actually, that's wrong. Capitalism is designed with corruption and greed in mind. Greed motivates entities to perform better in the market and get more stuff. Corruption is dealt with by entities shifting to competitors who are screwing them less. Capitalism's failure is in assuming all involved entities are sufficiently intelligent to be aware of when they're being screwed, and principled enough to forgo what they want to avoid being screwed.

    34. Re:The quality conrol problems... by PseudoCoder · · Score: 1

      Except that every attempt at communism has always miserably failed to build this classless, moneyless and stateless utopia because it's not intended for actual humans with feelings, ambitions, goals and freedom. It requires everyone to be "with the program" or they get shot or starved to death. There are only about 100 million corpses all over the world as evidence of this. I think Cambodia has tourists attractions where you can go see piles of bones and the prisons where they kept the dissenters, if you need to see it with your own eyes.

      If you believe you can get anywhere near a perfect implementation of communism, then you may also know where I can get the magnetic monopole I need to finish my project.

      --
      "Now, I doubt any of you would prefer a rolled up newspaper as a weapon against a dictator or a criminal intruder."
    35. Re:The quality conrol problems... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Communism - an economic system where by everyone slacks off because they think everyone else will pick up the slack.

    36. Re:The quality conrol problems... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I don't understand what the appeal of communism is. In its rawest form it is no different from slavery - you are obliged to work for the benefit of others and your reward is a subsistence living. Hard or innovate work is not rewarded with increased benefits (because it would be unfair for some to have more than others). In fact, hard work is penalized because the better you work, the more is expected from you to produce for the sake of everyone else.

    37. Re:The quality conrol problems... by the+gnat · · Score: 1

      Except that every attempt at communism has always miserably failed to build this classless, moneyless and stateless utopia because it's not intended for actual humans with feelings, ambitions, goals and freedom. It requires everyone to be "with the program" or they get shot or starved to death.

      This can be formulated more generally as: true communism, on a national scale, is impossible without coercion. This means that it's effectively impossible without violence and some kind of dictatorship - even Marx admitted that initially some amount of authoritarian control would be required before society could evolve towards a more "pure" and democratic form of communism.

      The big problem lies in the fact that violent revolutionary movements tend to attract people who are at least as interested in the violence as the underlying ideology. Which is why nearly every attempt at communist revolution has eventually degraded into mass murder and/or corrupt oligarchy. ("Nearly", because a few abortive attempts were nipped in the bud by right-wing counter-revolutions - the best example being Chile, also one of the only cases where communists won power in free and fair elections. Whether Allende's rule would have been enlightened or followed the same course as the rest, we can only guess.)

      The lone example that I'm aware of "true" communism by peaceful means is the anarchist movement in early 20th century Spain. But the key difference there is that non-coercion and free will were considered at least as important (probably more so) as the collectivism they practiced; despite being polar opposites of the Nationalists, they were reluctant to even join the Republican (i.e. liberal democratic) government in the Spanish Civil War, because all government was considered inherently coercive. It's a shame that the movement essentially died out in the war, because it was a fascinating experiment. My guess is that it would have succumbed to outside pressures eventually, but I find the idea of a purely voluntary collectivism philosophically appealing.

    38. Re:The quality conrol problems... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If this happened when Stalin was in the helm, the people who did the installation would be denounced as wreckers and then shot.

    39. Re:The quality conrol problems... by ArcadeMan · · Score: 0

      Where the hell is it written that your reward is subsistence living? The reward is everyone living up to the same standards.

    40. Re:The quality conrol problems... by lgw · · Score: 2

      It's just Murphy's Law in action. The original inspiration for Murphy's Law was when Murphy flew a test airplane that had instrument gauges that, just like the sensors in TFA, could physically be installed upside down, but it was completely obvious which way was right. All of the gauges in his test plane were upside down, leading him to coin the phrase that has far outlasted our memory of his career as a test pilot.

      Murphy's Law was specifically about installing aerospace instrumentation upside down.

      --
      Socialism: a lie told by totalitarians and believed by fools.
    41. Re: The quality conrol problems... by jd2112 · · Score: 1

      (Will Smith) Look over here please. The rocket exploded due to sensors being installed incorrectly. There was no extraterrestrial interference involved in this incident.

      --
      Any insufficiently advanced magic is indistinguishable from technology.
    42. Re:The quality conrol problems... by ArcadeMan · · Score: 2

      The problem is that we live in a world of scarcity, we can't get all that stuff that we want, or need. The communist system tries to make everything equal, however that means everyone will be living in scarcity, and not really having what they need or want. Because everyone will be wanting, it will open the door for someone(s) to cheat the system and try to get more, once they have more they will hold on to it. And the system begins to fail.

      This is your typical right-wing FUD right there. You don't understand the principle and then you go and make your own mind about so-called "facts".

      Communism isn't about giving everyone a fucking Hummer and a fucking five-story house with a lot the size of ten football fields and gold jewelry.

      You need to understand that making everyone equals doesn't mean there will be scarcity. Communism isn't about what people *want*, it's about what people *need*. Everybody should have free basic food, free basic housing, free potable water, free transportation, free health care, etc. You want extra? That's where the capitalism should kick in.

      With more and more jobs going to automated factories, I'm pretty sure that's where we're headed. Too lazy and want to be passive? You don't get anything extra but you can live your life peacefully without sickness and hunger. You want more than the basics? You work to get it.

    43. Re:The quality conrol problems... by internerdj · · Score: 1

      Ideal capitalism has a mechanism for that, but in practice it gives means and motive for a select group to undermine the system by collusion and information control. Hence, my comment that corruption and greed are the fatal flaw of capitalism as well.

    44. Re:The quality conrol problems... by Rhacman · · Score: 1

      Open source software both benefits from as well as helps further for-profit endeavors.

      From: http://go.linuxfoundation.org/who-writes-linux-2012
      Page 9: "over 75% of all [Linux] kernel development is demonstrably done by developers who are being paid for their work."

      Open source software may be an example of something that is open to the masses, but many well known open source projects wouldn't be what they are today without enormous support from corporate interests. These corporations aren't contributing to these development efforts purely out of the goodness of their hearts. Neither would most of these corporations survive if they made all of their goods and services freely available to the public.

      By the way...
      Page 1: "For the first time ever, Microsoft appeared in the list of the top-20 contributors for a kernel release."

      --
      Account -> Discussions -> Disable Sigs
    45. Re:The quality conrol problems... by cheesybagel · · Score: 1

      Actually Lockheed Martin used to have an agreement with the people doing the Proton launches. The company was called International Launch Services or ILS.

    46. Re:The quality conrol problems... by vux984 · · Score: 1

      an unattainable standard that is constantly held up as a model of perfection despite having no functional real world example past or present.

      How clever!

      That's also the definition of Democracy, Capitalism, Constitutional Republic,...

      Guess it wasn't that clever after all.

    47. Re:The quality conrol problems... by stoatwblr · · Score: 1

      The natural end result of capitalism is monopolistic oligarchy and lack of innovation. In times gone by, the US govt would periodically intervene to restore fair competition. Most recently the government has suffered regulatory capture. The USA may be many things, but a capitalist system it isn't. The New Deal was socialism for starters.

    48. Re:The quality conrol problems... by LordLimecat · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Democracy /capitalism "work" even if you dont have a "pure" implementation.

      Communism has never worked in any of its forms; its just gotten millions killed in purges and famines, and left nations in a crippled, dysfuncitonal state even decades later. The cry has always been that it hasnt worked because it wasnt implemented in a pure enough form, hence my "no true scotsman" comment.

      Capitalist / democratic states, however, continue to be represented by every major world power. China is becoming a major power precisely by embracing a functioning economic system that looks and smells an awful lot like capitalism.

    49. Re:The quality conrol problems... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      However it rarely works for a long time or with a lot of people.

      It's not "or", it's "and". Communism can work for a long time with a small group of people. Monastery, Kibbutz (yes, I'm aware Kibbutz are now mostly gone), even the Amish style of living are similar to communism.

      Of course, what is ironic is that the only way for a communist society to survive is with religion.

    50. Re: The quality conrol problems... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Look at the straw man!!!!

    51. Re:The quality conrol problems... by Minwee · · Score: 3, Insightful

      All you need to do to create perfect communism is kill everyone else so no-one can disagree with you (you can't just kill the ones who disagree, because the others might only be pretending to agree).

      Stalin made a pretty good attempt, but didn't quite succeed.

      By an incredible coincidence, that's also the way to create a perfectly free market with no government intervention.

    52. Re:The quality conrol problems... by vux984 · · Score: 1

      Communism has never worked in any of its forms

      Well, except for Hutterite and Amish colonies and Aboriginal tribal societies in a number of places.

      Not that they are "pure" communism, but that isn't a requirement here. They are approximations of communism that have proven to work.

      Capitalist / democratic states, however, continue to be represented by every major world power.

      And history has shown plenty of examples of them getting millions killed, and leaving nations in crippled dysfunctional states. The current modern examples are no exception, and are generally beleived to be in a state of decline, gradually devolving into corporatist fascist / states.

      So it turns out small groups can live just fine as a communism but it doesn't seem to scale well. Then again, no functional solution has been found that is particularly stable or beneficial for large groups in the long term.

    53. Re:The quality conrol problems... by HornWumpus · · Score: 1

      Most leftest defend communism with the 'no true Scotsman' defense. You just redefine communism to suit your whim.

      --
      John McAfee 'It was like that time I hired that Bangkok prostitute; to do my taxes, while I fucked my accountant'
    54. Re:The quality conrol problems... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      That's basically the problem. Any system based on good will and that presumes good intentions in people is very sensible to corruption. Capitalism is inerently evil, or at least, that's what we do believe. That keeps up on the look for crooks, wich really helps keeping the system working.

    55. Re:The quality conrol problems... by ArcadeMan · · Score: 1

      I didn't redefine communism, I stayed true to its spirit for basic modern human needs. I just added capitalism on top of it for non-basic extras.

    56. Re:The quality conrol problems... by HornWumpus · · Score: 1

      Yes you did. Look up the definition. Who owns the means of production?

      You describe a capitalist welfare state.

      --
      John McAfee 'It was like that time I hired that Bangkok prostitute; to do my taxes, while I fucked my accountant'
    57. Re:The quality conrol problems... by LordLimecat · · Score: 1

      And history has shown plenty of examples of them getting millions killed, and leaving nations in crippled dysfunctional states.

      Show me anything on a tenth of the scale of the atrocities of Soviet Russia, DPRK, and Democratic Kampuchea. Until then, dont even pretend the two are on the same scale.

      The most screwed up countries outside of Africa tend to have that one thing-- attempted communism-- in common. Why do you suppose that is?
      On the flip side, most successful countries (by whatever measure) have embraced capitalism, and generally democracy. Why do you suppose that is?

    58. Re:The quality conrol problems... by LordLimecat · · Score: 1

      Im not sure if youre aware or are just trolling, but there IS such a thing as communism, it is pretty well defined, and it has been attempted several times to disastrous effect.

      I mean I guess if you want to ridicule the US for not embracing communism and going the way of Cuba, Russia, North Korea, and Vietnam, you can do that, but it makes you look pretty silly.

    59. Re:The quality conrol problems... by Zynder · · Score: 1

      Nope but if you drive a Japanese car, you can talk about how awesome of an American car it is, and how shitty that Mexican Chevrolet is. Don't you love it when reality gets all mixed up!

    60. Re:The quality conrol problems... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "In Capitalism, man exploits man. In Socialism, it is the other way around." - Anon.

      As I see it, the problem isn't economic systems, it's human nature which is changing very slowly (if at all) over the 40,000 years or so we've been able to track it.

    61. Re:The quality conrol problems... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Interesting

      I've long thought that the problem with Communism is that it assumes that people are essentially good, efficient and responsible. If the people fail to meet that standard then Communism suffers.

      Capitalism assumes that people are essentially bad, lazy and corrupt. If the people do better than that then Capitalism benefits.

    62. Re:The quality conrol problems... by Immerman · · Score: 1

      That's rather like saying the problem with flight is that gravity has remained too high to flap our arms and leap into the sky. Yes, human nature seems to have remained largely unchanged since we domesticated ourselves, that doesn't mean we can't make progress, it simply means our progress will be bound more by our technologies than ourselves. And that's exactly what currency, capitalism, communism, republics, democracies, etc. are - social technologies. And the historical trend among "civilized" societies* seems to be towards increasing checks and balances on the administration of power. Today with the internet and social media we are likely in the early stages of another major social technology with the potential to allow effective communal decision making, as well as exposing corruption. I suspect it won't be long until we start seeing communities effectively employing related technologies to local governance - initially in an advisory role similar to town hall meetings, but eventually much more decisively integrated.

      *the transition from small-scale tribal societies to larger "civilizations" arguably tends to go the other way, but that's scaling problems for you

      As an aside, to imagine that we can track human nature over 40,000 years is... optimistic. I think it's important to keep in mind that anyone who makes significant claims about civilizations from a few scraps of pottery or stone is spinning a tale filled far more with their own speculation and preconceptions than objective fact. The fact is we know almost nothing about pre-historic societies, and as psychologists are beginning to discover even much of what has been widely considered "human nature" today actually appears to be culture-specific - for practical reasons most psych. experiments have been performed upon US university students, but recent more broadly-based research suggests that Westerners are actually outliers within the world population, and the US is an outlier even among the Western world.

      --
      --- Most topics have many sides worth arguing, allow me to take one opposite you.
    63. Re:The quality conrol problems... by vux984 · · Score: 1

      Show me anything on a tenth of the scale of the atrocities of Soviet Russia, DPRK, and Democratic Kampuchea. Until then, dont even pretend the two are on the same scale.

      None of those even got close to communism. They were simply fascist military dictatorships with the alledged (or at least initial goal) of eventually instituting communism that never got around to it.

      You might as well hold up Saddam's Iraq or Hitler's Germany as being democracy's. They weren't democracies in anything but name. And they line up neatly with Stalin's Russia and Mao's China. Which weren't communisms in anything but name.

      The most screwed up countries outside of Africa tend to have that one thing-- attempted communism-- in common. Why do you suppose that is?

      I'd have to accept the premise before I bothered to suppose anything, and I don't. Screwed up countries outside of Africa include Libya, Iraq, Syria, Saudi Arabia, Myanmar, Cambodia, El Salvador, Columbia...

      On the flip side, most successful countries (by whatever measure) have embraced capitalism, and generally democracy. Why do you suppose that is?

      Less than 150 years ago the most successful countries by any measure were constitutional monarchies. 2000 years ago you'd point at the success of the Roman Empire, the unprecedented Pax Romana, and claim that the recently failed Roman Republic which ended in series of bloody civil wars marked the failures of democracy and republic. Give it another couple hundred years; I predict we'll look back at the failed experiment that was "Constutional Republic".

      As for communism, I've already speculated that it doesn't appear to work beyond populations of a couple hundred. Capitalism has plenty of grotesque failures of its own. Socialism - a hybrid of capitalism with communism seems to be the true mark of modern developed countries. Even the USA is far from a pure capitalism after all.

      And we evidently still haven't figured out how to define a democracy that doesn't become hopelessly corrupted. Clearly electing our representatives has proven to be an abject failure.The populace has proven too easy for the monied to manipulate. Candidates seek election over policy, and the field of possibilities amount to those who can secure enough money to run. And once elected have little power to effect positive change, and end up spending all their time posturing for re-election.

      Perhaps election by lottery of anyone over the age of X that meets minimal qualifications; mandatory political duty akin to the mandatory military service in some countries, coupled with a constitution that enshrines the right to an education and the teaching of critical thinking... I don't know I could spitball all night about ways to better reform after a revolution.

    64. Re:The quality conrol problems... by jellomizer · · Score: 1

      Thats not Communism, That is socialism. There is a difference.

      --
      If something is so important that you feel the need to post it on the internet... It probably isn't that important.
    65. Re:The quality conrol problems... by jellomizer · · Score: 1

      I like that analysis. Too bad I don't have mod point and you are an Anonymous Coward.

      --
      If something is so important that you feel the need to post it on the internet... It probably isn't that important.
    66. Re:The quality conrol problems... by MickLinux · · Score: 1

      No, that's free market. Capitalism is rule by capital, meaning that the richest guy bribes the government to pass laws that restrict their competitors, and everything falls apart rather similar to what's happening in that largish third world country, what's it's name, the EU? Estados Unidos, or something. United States! That's it. Anyhow, when bribes rule, then the rich get richer and the poor get enslaved, kindof like in that other system, communism.

      --
      Correct Horse Battery Staple: 72 bits of entropy. Enter "Correct H" into google. When it generates the phrase, that's
    67. Re:The quality conrol problems... by SJester · · Score: 1

      No, it will be a lump of Polonium 210.

    68. Re:The quality conrol problems... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Capitalism's failure is in assuming all involved entities are sufficiently intelligent to be aware of when they're being screwed, and principled enough to forgo what they want to avoid being screwed.

      No, capitalism's failures are by assuming that laws can't be gamed, by having no mechanism for dealing market failure and by having this quaint belief that asymmetric levels of power won't eventually lead to monopolies/oligarchies, regardless of the levels of intelligence of the people involved.

    69. Re:The quality conrol problems... by hawkfish · · Score: 1

      The problem with communism seems to be that it doesn't seem to scale well beyond the tribe/monastery/commune level. Once the population gets too large to allow for effective communal decision making, communal ownership tends to become de-facto ownership by the decision makers, massively exacerbating the problem of corruption.

      What about the military? That's a pretty socialistic system...

      --
      You will not drink with us, but you would taste our steel? - Walter Matthau, The Pirates
    70. Re:The quality conrol problems... by Immerman · · Score: 1

      After a fashion, but with major caveats: The first and most important being that the military is in no way an economy - they produce no wealth and have only limited influence on expenditures. They are in essence a dog on the government's chain, funded and directed as the government sees fit. So any discussion on their "economic system" is fundamentally flawed.

      The second is that ideal socialism/communism stress collectivist ownership, which to my knowledge the military does not have. All ownership flows from the government down through the hierarchy. Individual groups are caretakers of their equipment, but if those resources are deemed to be needed elsewhere they will be removed without regard for those who have been caretaking them.

      --
      --- Most topics have many sides worth arguing, allow me to take one opposite you.
    71. Re:The quality conrol problems... by Hognoxious · · Score: 1

      Mmmm, no.

      I'm ridiculing you for using a word without knowing what it means. See also: terrorist (variants: terrust, tairst).

      --
      Confucius say, "Find worm in apple - bad. Find half a worm - worse."
  2. oooh... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    blow up moose and squirrel....

    sounds like some engineers are going to be working the siberian salt mines.

  3. In Soviet Russia by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Upside down is not always wrong.

    1. Re:In Soviet Russia by RenderSeven · · Score: 5, Funny

      Perhaps the thinking is, as long as the arrow isnt pointed at you it's probably safe.

  4. vodka and work don't mix by alen · · Score: 4, Interesting

    being from there i bet half the people working on this came to work drunk and/or hung over most days

    1. Re:vodka and work don't mix by cold+fjord · · Score: 1

      The Party anti-drinking agitprop didn't really seem to make a dent during the Soviet years.

      --
      much of left-wing thought is a kind of playing with fire by people who don't even know that fire is hot - George Orwell
    2. Re:vodka and work don't mix by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      In rocketry - coming to work drunk? You've got to be shitting me!!!

    3. Re:vodka and work don't mix by tnk1 · · Score: 2

      Russians are quite capable of making some really sturdy stuff. If anything, they engineer it to stand up to operators who are often uneducated and half-drunk. That is where you get masterpieces like the AK-47 which isn't the most accurate assault rifle out there, but you can bury one in shit for a year, dig it up, clean out the mechanism a bit and it will still fire. Try that with an M-16 and you'll have a military-themed door stop.

      So, I would not be surprised if there was someone working on that Proton-M who was somehow inebriated.

      On the other hand, there's probably drunk people working on the Proton-M at all times anyway, so it probably has nothing to do with the problem.

    4. Re:vodka and work don't mix by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      'Russians are quite capable of making some really sturdy stuff.'

      Like the Yugo? (Yugoslavia but was still part of Soviet bloc).

    5. Re:vodka and work don't mix by Slayer · · Score: 1

      replying to undo bs moderation - please ignore

    6. Re:vodka and work don't mix by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Why half? Did they finally introduce staggered paydays?

    7. Re:vodka and work don't mix by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yugoslavia was expelled from COMINFORM, only held observer status of COMECON and actually started the Non-Aligned Movement in the 60's. It really wasn't "part of the Soviet bloc".

    8. Re:vodka and work don't mix by Trax3001BBS · · Score: 1

      being from there i bet half the people working on this came to work drunk and/or hung over most days

      Then being from there you know how Russians drink and stay sober.

      I'd read an article long ago about Russians and their drinking habits, this is what I've found on a quick search.

      Monday, September 19, 2005

      Russians are renowned for drinking a lot of vodka staying sober.
      That’s not something to do with biological inheritance but with the way we drink.
      Russians believe that foreigners don’t know how to drink. They don’t eat while drinking. They mix cocktails. They sip vodka instead of taking shots. They drink vodka with highly carbonated sodas. In short, they do everything to get drunk from the minimum amount of alcohol. May be it has something to do with innate Western avidity or expensiveness of alcohol.
      Russians, on the other hand, do everything to stay sober while drinking as much alcohol as possible. How do we do it? We try to neutralize alcohol as long as possible. I try to outline the basic principles of vodka drinking for uninitiated.

      http://konstantin2005.blogspot.com/2005/09/how-to-drink-vodka-and-stay-sober.html

    9. Re:vodka and work don't mix by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      http://konstantin2005.blogspot.com/2005/09/how-to-drink-vodka-and-stay-sober.html

      You had me riveted until the "2. Drinks one or two raw eggs." part. I thought I could maybe substitute or skip, but "Raw eggs are the most important part of Russian pre-party preparations." was the clinch.

      Guess I'll continue to get drunk or abstain....

  5. QA is not the problem by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Murphy's Law is still in effect. Like the snippet says make sure that they can only be installed one way mechanically, because you won't catch 100% of the errors in QA.

    1. Re:QA is not the problem by X0563511 · · Score: 1

      What stops the key from being installed wrongly?

      --
      For large sets, this will be our guide even unto death, for the LORD will work for each type of data it is applied to...
    2. Re:QA is not the problem by jeffmeden · · Score: 5, Insightful

      What seems more amazing is that a simple software check pre-launch (i.e. "do all the sensors think they are pointed up?") was not part of the SOP. Given that their exact function is orientation detection, skipping the opportunity for self-test via that function is somewhat baffling.

      Obligatory: It's not rocket science!

    3. Re:QA is not the problem by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Exactly. QA is not the answer to all the problems - the work needs to be done correctly to start with. QA is kind of a last chance opportunity to catch mistakes, but nothing is 100%. The place I work loves to hire cheap, unskilled labor to do the work and rely on QA to fix everything up. Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't.

    4. Re:QA is not the problem by war4peace · · Score: 1

      Theoretically, any geometric irregularity. Take SIM cards or SD Cards, for example. Put a notch somewhere and bang, you can't mount it in any other position.

      --
      ...gis sdrawkcab (usually not responding to ACs; don't bother posting as AC)
    5. Re:QA is not the problem by oobayly · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Never underestimate the ingenuity that people are capable of in order to install something wrong. Somebody in our office forced (yes, forced) a Xerox Phaser ink block in the the slot the wrong way round. The thing is basically a shape sorter that a toddler is capable of understanding.

    6. Re:QA is not the problem by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Funny

      there is a job waiting for them in the space optics division of Perkin-Elmer

    7. Re:QA is not the problem by jrumney · · Score: 4, Insightful

      The greatest pleasure my toddler ever got from his shape sorter was when he discovered that the 3 could be forced through the hole for the C. Never underestimate the satisfaction a disgruntled office worker gets from jamming the ink block into the printer the wrong way around.

    8. Re:QA is not the problem by TheCarp · · Score: 5, Informative

      Amusingly, when someone actually attempted to track down who murphy was, and where the law came from.... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murphys_law

      Edward Murphy proposed using electronic strain gauges attached to the restraining clamps of Stapp's harness to measure the force exerted on them by his rapid deceleration. Murphy was engaged in supporting similar research using high speed centrifuges to generate g-forces. Murphy's assistant wired the harness, and a trial was run using a chimpanzee.

      The sensors provided a zero reading; however, it became apparent that they had been installed incorrectly, with each sensor wired backwards. It was at this point that a disgusted Murphy made his pronouncement

      So this is potentially, very much related to the original usage.

      --
      "I opened my eyes, and everything went dark again"
    9. Re:QA is not the problem by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      How does a velocity sensor know position?

    10. Re:QA is not the problem by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Quote: Never underestimate the power of stupid people in large groups.

      Corollary: Never underestimate the power of one stupid person.

    11. Re:QA is not the problem by Athanasius · · Score: 4, Insightful

      My reading of 'angular velocity sensor' is that they're meant to sense rotation. If you're sat stationary on the pad there is no such rotation and thus you'll get a 'correct' zero reading. You'd have to perform such a test during some known movements of the rocket (part).

    12. Re:QA is not the problem by Baloroth · · Score: 5, Informative

      What seems more amazing is that a simple software check pre-launch (i.e. "do all the sensors think they are pointed up?") was not part of the SOP. Given that their exact function is orientation detection, skipping the opportunity for self-test via that function is somewhat baffling.

      Obligatory: It's not rocket science!

      The sensors in question were for angular velocity. Given that pre-launch the craft doesn't have any (peculiar) angular velocity, the sensors would return the correct results (zero) no matter how they were installed.

      --
      "None can love freedom heartily, but good men; the rest love not freedom, but license." --John Milton
    13. Re:QA is not the problem by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      they are angular velocity sensors, so they probably all say "zero" when the rocket is not moving. Once it's moving, you can't adjust the sensors without another rocket and really good timing.

    14. Re:QA is not the problem by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      What seems more amazing is that a simple software check pre-launch (i.e. "do all the sensors think they are pointed up?") was not part of the SOP. Given that their exact function is orientation detection, skipping the opportunity for self-test via that function is somewhat baffling.

      Obligatory: It's not rocket science!

      Another fucking armchair rocket scientist. I don't get why everyone thinks there so much smarter than the experts. You're not. These were angular velocity sensors. Please explain how they can self test without spinning the whole fucking rocket?

    15. Re:QA is not the problem by KiloByte · · Score: 5, Interesting

      An old joke:

      A militia (communist police) station has been ordered to conduct an intelligence test. It consisted of a board with three holes: a circle, a triangle and a square, and three corresponding blocks. The next days, the commandant announces: I'm very proud of our station: all of you passed the test! 5% have shown exceptional intelligence, 95% exceptional strength!

      --
      The creatures outside looked from Alt-Right to Antifa; but already it was impossible to say which was which.
    16. Re:QA is not the problem by VitaminB52 · · Score: 1

      What seems more amazing is that a simple software check pre-launch (i.e. "do all the sensors think they are pointed up?") was not part of the SOP. Given that their exact function is orientation detection, skipping the opportunity for self-test via that function is somewhat baffling.

      No - the sensors were 'angular velocity sensors'. They do not measure orientation but change of orientation. Is a bit more difficult to check pre-launch than an orientation sensor.

    17. Re:QA is not the problem by X0563511 · · Score: 1

      That works if it's a solid item that you can mold like that - but if it were sheets of metal, you could bolt it on wrongly etc. Granted it would certainly reduce the chances...

      --
      For large sets, this will be our guide even unto death, for the LORD will work for each type of data it is applied to...
    18. Re:QA is not the problem by Deadstick · · Score: 1

      Given that their exact function is orientation detection

      Except that it's no such thing. An angular velocity sensor senses, well, angular velocity. That means speed of rotation. A broken clock is right twice a day, and a stationary angular velocity sensor is right all the time.

    19. Re:QA is not the problem by oGMo · · Score: 1

      If nothing else, in addition to the mechanical interlock, you could have an electronic one that says "hey, I'm plugged in right!" or not.

      --

      Don't think of it as a flame---it's more like an argument that does 3d6 fire damage

    20. Re:QA is not the problem by jeffmeden · · Score: 0

      How does a velocity sensor know position?

      Gravity is synonymous with velocity change, so if you are relatively motionless wrt the earth's surface, a sensor will register 9.8m/s/s "up" (if it is oriented the right way).

    21. Re:QA is not the problem by h4rr4r · · Score: 1

      You move the rocket in a known way, as in lift it, then read the outputs.

    22. Re:QA is not the problem by h4rr4r · · Score: 1

      Spin the part they are installed in, before the rocket is assembled. Sure you have to spin one sub assembly, but at least not the whole thing.

    23. Re:QA is not the problem by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Gravity is just acceleration in the down direction. These sensors where measuring acceleration right?

      If these sensors where measuring changes in acceleration, then it seems like the software could fairly easily determine what direction they where pointed the instant the craft started to move and adjusted accordingly. At the very least, a simple test could be devised to "verify" everything is mounted properly before flight.

      My guess is that somebody with a QA stamp didn't actually perform the required tests... Who'd think the Russians suffer from that too?

    24. Re:QA is not the problem by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Already saw that while I was working at Staples Canada, one of our employee put the black in the yellow hole, and the block wasn't broken at all. I also saw a woman that put a PCI WiFi card in the wrong way in her computer, she removed the shield to put with the antenna inside. Human can be really dumb sometime. ;)

    25. Re:QA is not the problem by EmperorArthur · · Score: 1

      Gravity.

      Since these things are really accellerometers,either the sensor or the computer needs to ajust for local gravity to give accurate velocity measurements.

      In this case, the reading should have been around -9.8m/s2 * 2 = -19.6m/s2 when the rocket was sitting on the pad.

      --
      So lets pretend that we've just completed writing this code, as opposed to having just completed sabotaging it -Altera
    26. Re:QA is not the problem by CastrTroy · · Score: 1

      They are angular velocity sensors. At launch, their angular velocity is 0. Although there probably should be a check pre-launch to determine if all the sensors are indeed facing the correct way, or better yet, make it impossible to install them upside down.

      --

      Anthropic principle: We see the universe the way it is because if it were different we would not be here to see it.
    27. Re:QA is not the problem by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I've put a printer cable (male 25 pin D) into a game port (female 15 pin D).
      A couple of pins were bent, and a faint smell of burning plastic and solder started when I turned on the computer, but they fitted.

      You know how this happens when you have to reach around the back of the computer, in the dark, if something almost fit, just use a bit more force until it does.

      captcia: pressure

    28. Re:QA is not the problem by Bartles · · Score: 1

      The mechanical interlock is not the solution here. Two letters on or next to the arrow is. An indicating arrow without a prescribed orientation is useless. Cardboard box manufacturers know this. UP.

    29. Re:QA is not the problem by Githaron · · Score: 1

      I guess they could program the computer to automatically flip the sensor data if after half a second into launch they are getting impossible readings?

    30. Re:QA is not the problem by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It says angular velocity sensor, not linear acceleration sensor.

    31. Re:QA is not the problem by LordLimecat · · Score: 4, Funny

      Ive seen RAM modules installed backwards. "Wait!", you say, "Isnt there a notch which prevents that?" Well, yes, there WAS a notch...

    32. Re:QA is not the problem by Rockoon · · Score: 1

      which sensors are right?

      --
      "His name was James Damore."
    33. Re:QA is not the problem by MiG82au · · Score: 1

      Which part of "angular velocity" do you not understand?

    34. Re:QA is not the problem by Dishevel · · Score: 1

      I love my 8560MFP.

      --
      Why is it so hard to only have politicians for a few years, then have them go away?
    35. Re:QA is not the problem by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Sure, they could. But that makes the software more complicated, and increases the chance of a defect in the programming. Are the odds as high as the chance of installing sensors backwards? I don't know...

    36. Re:QA is not the problem by Dishevel · · Score: 0

      Sure it does.
      9.8 m/s of acceleration up. While standing still.
      Sensors installed upside down should have been reading it as the rocket accelerating backwards, or "Down", or "Braking".

      --
      Why is it so hard to only have politicians for a few years, then have them go away?
    37. Re:QA is not the problem by aralin · · Score: 1

      Reminds me of when local police introduced a shape sorter as interview screening tool,100% of the applicants passed, 50% with brains, 50% with force.

      --
      If programs would be read like poetry, most programmers would be Vogons.
    38. Re:QA is not the problem by putaro · · Score: 1

      The Proton arrives at the pad horizontally and is then erected into a vertical position for launch. If the electronics are powered up at that point, you could run an angular velocity check/

    39. Re:QA is not the problem by Lumpy · · Score: 1

      Yes it is. even as simple as using a 3mm screw on one end and a 5mm screw on the other end. attempting to install it wrong will instantly cause a problem because one screw will not go through the hole.

      Problem is, most places are hiring lowest wage workers, so you do not get people that have the IQ to understand that if the screw does not fit then something is wrong, they just get more 3mm screws or more likely the even more stupid foreman or manager tells them to.

      Same goes if you use a keying hole and peg, easy to make improper installation obvious, until that manager tells them to grind off the peg.

      --
      Do not look at laser with remaining good eye.
    40. Re:QA is not the problem by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Ive seen RAM modules installed backwards. "Wait!", you say, "Isnt there a notch which prevents that?" Well, yes, there WAS a notch...

      And now there are two...

    41. Re:QA is not the problem by oobayly · · Score: 1

      and a stationary angular velocity sensor is right all the time.

      Not if it's giving a non-zero value at rest

      <ducks>

    42. Re:QA is not the problem by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      People like you make me sad :(

    43. Re:QA is not the problem by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I've put a printer cable (male 25 pin D) into a game port (female 15 pin D).

      No you haven't. The other way round might go in.

    44. Re:QA is not the problem by Baloroth · · Score: 2

      Sure, if this was a vertically mounted accelerometer. It was not: it was an angular velocity sensor (I believe this is the technical specification page, although I could be wrong). The angular velocity of the craft on the launchpad is zero. If it's not, you have much much bigger problems than an improperly mounted sensor.

      --
      "None can love freedom heartily, but good men; the rest love not freedom, but license." --John Milton
    45. Re:QA is not the problem by Hognoxious · · Score: 1

      9.8 m/s of acceleration up. While standing still.

      I think the key word you need to learn is "angular".

      Hint: you don't measure angles in metres.

      --
      Confucius say, "Find worm in apple - bad. Find half a worm - worse."
    46. Re:QA is not the problem by cellocgw · · Score: 1

      I guess they could program the computer to automatically flip the sensor data if after half a second into launch they are getting impossible readings?

      I believe that sort of data processing is called the "too-late buffer."

      But, seriously, if data could be ignored in some control loop, why would said data be involved in the first place? Mission-critical sensors HAVE to be relied on. The usual protocol if failure is detected is a full launch abort, or if the bird is away, full shutdown and whatever self-destruct is available is executed.

      --
      https://app.box.com/WitthoftResume Code: https://github.com/cellocgw
    47. Re:QA is not the problem by dpidcoe · · Score: 2

      When I worked in IT, the office movers were notorious for attempting to hook up computers (we told them not to) the wrong way. They destroyed several video cards by connecting the trapezoid shaped dell matrix connector (it splits off into 2 DVI connectors) upside down. Somehow they forced it on enough that the screws could bite, then cranked it down as hard as they could, completely demolishing the interface between the connector and the card. I don't think I could have done a better job had I taken a sledgehammer to it.

    48. Re:QA is not the problem by Brett+Buck · · Score: 3, Interesting

      IT IS NOT ZERO, its 0.004187 degrees per second around some vector. The Earth is turning!

    49. Re:QA is not the problem by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Never underestimate the ingenuity that people are capable of in order to install something wrong. Somebody in our office forced (yes, forced) a Xerox Phaser ink block in the the slot the wrong way round. The thing is basically a shape sorter that a toddler is capable of understanding.

      Did the printer display an error message to tell the user that there was an issue with the ink cartridge? Something suitably cryptic like "PC Load Letter"?

    50. Re:QA is not the problem by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      A perfect reason to include a couple of accelerometers in the design.

    51. Re:QA is not the problem by You're+All+Wrong · · Score: 1

      And there I was thinking that the 'dn' on the bottom skirt of the shower cubicle in my hotel room in [Country-not-important] was short for "down"...

      --
      Your head of state is a corrupt weasel, I hope you're happy.
    52. Re:QA is not the problem by Immerman · · Score: 1

      Look again. The male plug that has an alignment-limiting collar around the pins - it's impossible to seat a 15-pin male collar around a 25-pin female receptacle. The other way around however... all that takes is a couple bent pins.

      --
      --- Most topics have many sides worth arguing, allow me to take one opposite you.
    53. Re:QA is not the problem by Immerman · · Score: 1

      Hey, it worked for (most) old single-sided 5-1/4" floppy disks...

      --
      --- Most topics have many sides worth arguing, allow me to take one opposite you.
    54. Re:QA is not the problem by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      And then you have a bunch of electronic interlocks, and what if one time in a thousand it gives the wrong answer? And what if you have a thousand interlocks? Then you've got a decent chance of never getting off the ground....

    55. Re:QA is not the problem by Immerman · · Score: 1

      *angular* acceleration. Unless the rocket is tipping over they will all read 0.

      --
      --- Most topics have many sides worth arguing, allow me to take one opposite you.
    56. Re:QA is not the problem by Githaron · · Score: 1

      The ones that are showing that the rocket is moving upward. If the rocket is actually moving downward, you have bigger problems than a poorly installed sensor.

    57. Re:QA is not the problem by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      When installing multiples of something, all it takes is for the first person to do something wrong and the others to copy what that person did to have every part installed consistently, but wrong.

    58. Re:QA is not the problem by smellsofbikes · · Score: 3, Informative

      Amusingly, when someone actually attempted to track down who murphy was, and where the law came from.... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murphys_law

      Edward Murphy proposed using electronic strain gauges attached to the restraining clamps of Stapp's harness to measure the force exerted on them by his rapid deceleration. Murphy was engaged in supporting similar research using high speed centrifuges to generate g-forces. Murphy's assistant wired the harness, and a trial was run using a chimpanzee.

      The sensors provided a zero reading; however, it became apparent that they had been installed incorrectly, with each sensor wired backwards. It was at this point that a disgusted Murphy made his pronouncement

      So this is potentially, very much related to the original usage.

      If I remember right, the way a wheatstone strain gauge is set up, there are four ways to connect it. One is right, two are wrong but give you half the resolution you expected -- so you get data, just lousy data -- and one is completely wrong and you get no data whatsoever. It was hooked up in the completely wrong configuration. That was what made him so mad: there was only a 25% chance it would get hooked up in the completely worthless configuration, but that's what happened.

      --
      Nostalgia's not what it used to be.
    59. Re:QA is not the problem by Dishevel · · Score: 1

      Bigger hint.
      It measures angle and acceleration.
      Standing still it should read (Properly zeroed) 0.0 Gs @ 000.
      If the sensors are installed upside down they would be reading 1 G @180 deg.

      --
      Why is it so hard to only have politicians for a few years, then have them go away?
    60. Re:QA is not the problem by cheesybagel · · Score: 1

      You know what. The way the Russians launch a rocket is by using a rotating table. They do horizontal stage integration then they rotate it to vertical and launch. So this method could actually work if done at the correct time.

    61. Re:QA is not the problem by Rockoon · · Score: 1

      The ones that are showing that the rocket is moving upward.

      These sensors, being rotational sensors, dont show that information.

      --
      "His name was James Damore."
    62. Re:QA is not the problem by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Exactly this error happened in the early days of the F-117 program: the angular feedback sensors were mis-wired, such that pitch rate was being fed into the yaw-rate channel and vice-versa. Never detected in checkout as there were no angular velocities present during testing. First takeoff, pilot pulled back on stick, computers "sensed" an uncommanded yaw rate and attempted to correct.

      Ended that pilots flying career, if I remember correctly.

    63. Re:QA is not the problem by surph3r · · Score: 1

      First off, Murphy was an engineer and test pilot in the 1950s, and he worked on... wait for it... ROCKETS! Yes, he built and test piloted rocket sleds in the Mojave desert for NASA's predecessor.

      Murphy's Law actually states: "If it can happen, it will." He said this after someone installed parts of a rocket engine BACKWARDS! It was a comment on bad design because the part COULD be installed backwards, rendering the rocket engine inoperable.

      Sound familiar? Since the Proton-M sensors could be installed upside down, regardless of the indicator arrow, someone did exactly that.

      Murphy rides again!

      --
      If at first you don't succeed, skydiving is not for you.
    64. Re:QA is not the problem by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      My business does exactly this. One of the daily calibration tests for one of our pieces of equipment is quite literally "Grab it and give it a good shake. Make sure it's firmly attached, nothing rattles, and the computer captures the motion." While a rocket is a slightly different beast, there's no reason you couldn't do something very similar.

    65. Re:QA is not the problem by pspahn · · Score: 2

      When I was about 12, I took a knife and shaved off the corners of a molex connector and attached it an old hard disk that had tons of bad sectors. I just wanted to see what would happen.

      While interesting to a 12 year old, it was nothing more than a couple pops, some smoke, and a little bit of melted plastic. It was at this very moment that I learned everything I ever needed to know about computers.

      --
      Someone flopped a steamer in the gene pool.
    66. Re:QA is not the problem by PseudoCoder · · Score: 1

      Control systems nowadays (for systems of this complexity and magnitude) have multiple sensors per channel for redundancy. The control solutions are computed several times with all sensors, and the solutions that accumulate too much numerical errors (residuals) are rejected, and the gains and loops are adjusted if it is determined that a sensor or control channel is "failed". One implementation I'm familiar with is called "Residual Monitoring". Such a solution would have flagged this mis-installed sensor and "banned" it from subsequent nav solutions.

      Most of the sensors I've used in the U.S. market have direction indicators. A possible I could see would be that a technician installing the sensor was trying to access an inconvenient location to install the sensor and just installed it the way that was most convenient to them at the time. Maybe the connector placement contributed to that.

      --
      "Now, I doubt any of you would prefer a rolled up newspaper as a weapon against a dictator or a criminal intruder."
    67. Re:QA is not the problem by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Russian rockets are assembled horizontally then rotated to vertical on the pad. This seems like an ideal time to test the angular velocity sensors.

    68. Re:QA is not the problem by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Interestingly, "up" upside-down is "dn", an abbreviation for down.

      I have no idea what the relevant terms are in Russian/Cyrillic, though.

    69. Re:QA is not the problem by PPH · · Score: 2

      can only be installed one way mechanically,

      Won't help. The assembly notes say, "Beat to fit. Paint to match."

      --
      Have gnu, will travel.
    70. Re:QA is not the problem by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The (MEMS) angular velocity sensors I know about use Coriolis acceleration to sense angular velocity, with a microscopic vibrating thing to to give you the radial velocity term. I'm not sure about the relative magnitudes of the Coriolis acceleration and linear acceleration due to gravity (also directions may or may not be perpendicular), but the sensor might need calibrating against linear acceleration.

    71. Re:QA is not the problem by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I installed a module backwards accidentally once.
      The motherboard & connector bended enough (installing with the tower in place, lazyness...) for both ends to lock without tampering with the notch.
      One pad got wielded on the connector with the current flow of the few seconds it was ON.
      It ripped the slot's pin off when I removed the module. A check for schematic showed it was one of the many GND pins on the slot, and the module shorted it with several other power pins, which survived without getting wielded.
      I clipped the pin off the module, inserted again, flipped the switch... All was fine. Yay redundant power tracks & pads.

    72. Re:QA is not the problem by VitaminB52 · · Score: 1

      Only for one axis of rotation. That's not enough.

    73. Re:QA is not the problem by nbauman · · Score: 1

      Bechtel (I think) once installed a nuclear power plant upside down.

    74. Re:QA is not the problem by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      San Onofre, CA. Right on the fault line, uses ocean water for cooling (increasing ocean temp by degrees C in the area), constant shutdowns and retrofits for bad design (underdesigned steam generators, leading to steam tube failures).

      One of the many "oops" moments in US nuclear generation history. Why don't we just use the reactor designs that the Navy has been debugging since the early 1950s? Why reinvent the wheel and keep relearning lessons the Navy already fixed?

      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/San_Onofre_Nuclear_Generating_Station

      captha: lessons

    75. Re:QA is not the problem by Yoda222 · · Score: 1

      Try again.

    76. Re:QA is not the problem by knidu · · Score: 1

      Ive seen RAM modules installed backwards. "Wait!", you say, "Isnt there a notch which prevents that?" Well, yes, there WAS a notch...

      I see your RAM and raise you a VGA cable into a wall socket. You'd think the D shape would be a clue, but no, no it wasn't.

    77. Re:QA is not the problem by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The Earth is turning

      slower than the rocket

    78. Re:QA is not the problem by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The problem isn't low IQ, it's that the scientists and engineers are too arrogant to walk onto the line and tell workers and managers why performing the task in a certain way is important.

      It's often assumed that the scientists have designed unmanufacturable and/or defective equipment, because usually they have, and piecework is necessary to put these square pegs designed by broadly incompetent "rocket scientists" into the round holes they designed.

    79. Re:QA is not the problem by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If it were "sheets of metal", you can produce those sheets with three mounting holes in a non-isosceles triangle so that there's no way to put it on wrong and get all the bolt holes to line up.

      There's different solutions for different types of assembly, yes, but there's always a possible solution.

    80. Re:QA is not the problem by Bartles · · Score: 1

      Sure, but UP upside down is still UP, only upside down. up, not so much.

    81. Re:QA is not the problem by TheSeatOfMyPants · · Score: 1

      You should've tried plugging a 2-wire audio cable from a motherboard's speaker output pins up to a soundcard's slightly-different-looking input pins -- as I learned in the late 90s, doing that and powering the system on results in a bright flash, the smell of an electrical fire, and one thoroughly blackened wire.

      --
      Now mostly at Usenet:comp.misc & SoylentNews.org (it's made of people!)
    82. Re:QA is not the problem by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I did this. It was not my finest moment.

    83. Re:QA is not the problem by Lumpy · · Score: 1

      "engineers are too arrogant to walk onto the line and tell workers and managers why performing the task in a certain way is important."

      Bet you it is in the assembly documentation that they are not reading.

      --
      Do not look at laser with remaining good eye.
    84. Re:QA is not the problem by Hognoxious · · Score: 1

      reading 1 G

      6.674 x10^-11 N (m/kg)^2?
      Why would you need to measure a constant?

      --
      Confucius say, "Find worm in apple - bad. Find half a worm - worse."
    85. Re:QA is not the problem by Dishevel · · Score: 1

      You would not. Which is why once your zero for the constant force applied to the sensor it would be reading acceleration in the wrong direction.

      --
      Why is it so hard to only have politicians for a few years, then have them go away?
    86. Re:QA is not the problem by Hognoxious · · Score: 1

      G doesn't have the same units as acceleration, so an accelerometer can't show 1 G any more than a speedometer can read 13 amps.

      --
      Confucius say, "Find worm in apple - bad. Find half a worm - worse."
  6. (The Real) Murphy's Law strikes again! by Oloryn · · Score: 2

    Wasn't something like this responsible for the formulation of Murphy's law?

    1. Re:(The Real) Murphy's Law strikes again! by MickLinux · · Score: 5, Interesting

      Yes, the real, original Murphy's law apparently came from Col. Stapp, who was testing rocket sleds for the rocket program.

      I should note that the putative original Murphy's Law reads, "If there are two or more ways to do something, and one of those ways can result in a catastrophe, then someone will do it." . The website goes on to say "This is a principle of defensive design, cited here because it is usually given in mutant forms less descriptive of the challenges of design for lusers. For example, you don't make a two-pin plug symmetrical and then label it `THIS WAY UP'; if it matters which way it is plugged in, then you make the design asymmetrical."

      Highly appropriate to the topic, I might say. If only they had labeled, with the arrow, the words "up", and put another arrow down, with the letters "dn" for "down", then none of this would have happened.

      For those who wish to nit-pick my attention to detail and editing, also, I will for further irony include the wikipedia link, as well: http://wikipedia.org/wiki/Muphry%27s_law

      --
      Correct Horse Battery Staple: 72 bits of entropy. Enter "Correct H" into google. When it generates the phrase, that's
    2. Re:(The Real) Murphy's Law strikes again! by PetiePooo · · Score: 5, Informative

      My favorite is Cole's Law...

    3. Re:(The Real) Murphy's Law strikes again! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If only they had labeled, with the arrow, the words "up", and put another arrow down, with the letters "dn" for "down", then none of this would have happened.

      For those who wish to nit-pick my attention to detail and editing, also, I will for further irony include the wikipedia link, as well: http://wikipedia.org/wiki/Muphry%27s_law

      Very funny, this actually happened to me. The plumber on our new house installed our fancy, stupidly expensive shower valve upside down, with the pipes wrapped around the valve to get them from top to bottom and to the opposite side. When I said "what the hell", he pointed to the arrow pointing down and the letters dn, "the arrow is supposed to point down". He "fixed" it by wrapping the pipes an additional half turn around the valve when he flipped it correct side up. Actually, come to think of it, this isn't very funny at all.

    4. Re:(The Real) Murphy's Law strikes again! by AlecC · · Score: 1

      If only they had labeled, with the arrow, the words "up", and put another arrow down, with the letters "dn" for "down", then none of this would have happened.

      Unless, of course, somebody else had, for reasons that seemed excellent to them, decreed that this particular sub-assembly needed to be assembled upside down. At which point you need a careful worker to decide whether Up and Down mean assembly or launch orientation. This is wh nautical types use Port and Starboard instead of Left and Right for bits of the ship. Perhaps rocketeers need similar terms for nose and tail (Hot and Cold?).

      --
      Consciousness is an illusion caused by an excess of self consciousness.
    5. Re:(The Real) Murphy's Law strikes again! by rjr162 · · Score: 1

      I'd give you a point if I had any to give.. I fell for that hook, line, and sinker!

    6. Re:(The Real) Murphy's Law strikes again! by akh · · Score: 5, Funny

      If only they had labeled, with the arrow, the words "up", and put another arrow down, with the letters "dn" for "down", then none of this would have happened.

      Except that "dn" upside-down is indistinguishable from "up". Murphy strikes again?

      --
      Accept Eris as your Fnord and personally sate her
    7. Re:(The Real) Murphy's Law strikes again! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Don't forget the corollary to this rule. If it doesn't fit force it, if it breaks it wasn't meant to fit.

      I knew of someone(not I) who broke a back plane on a server. The hard drive wasn't seating correctly, so the person just rammed it until it fit. The tech call out to repair it pointed out that drive was being inserted upside down and thus could not fit properly.

    8. Re:(The Real) Murphy's Law strikes again! by dpidcoe · · Score: 1

      whooooooooosh

    9. Re:(The Real) Murphy's Law strikes again! by houghi · · Score: 1

      For example, you don't make a two-pin plug symmetrical and then label it `THIS WAY UP'; if it matters which way it is plugged in, then you make the design asymmetrical."

      Yet somehow people still forget this.
      In the past there was the keyboard and mouse that had the same connectors. They even had to color code it, which is proof that there is an issue.

      Also if it needs to be in one way, make it obvious as well. USB, is especially bad designed, I think, in that you need to try it three times before it fits.

      Many TV remotes are terrible in that I need to look if I am pointing in the right direction and I can not just feel what it up or what is down. In the past I have already not bought a tv because the remote was so crappy in their ergonomics. If they can't be bothered to put a little effort into that, why should I trust the rest of their design on a technical level?

      The best example that is often seen is if a door needs to tell if it is push or pull, the design is bad.

      --
      Don't fight for your country, if your country does not fight for you.
    10. Re:(The Real) Murphy's Law strikes again! by Hognoxious · · Score: 1

      Does that also work in Cyrillic?

      --
      Confucius say, "Find worm in apple - bad. Find half a worm - worse."
    11. Re:(The Real) Murphy's Law strikes again! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Whoosh!

    12. Re:(The Real) Murphy's Law strikes again! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Are you from Germany?

      First we tell the joke, then we explain the joke. And then you can laugh...

    13. Re:(The Real) Murphy's Law strikes again! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      owch, I got owned.

    14. Re:(The Real) Murphy's Law strikes again! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If only they had labeled, with the arrow, the words "up", and put another arrow down, with the letters "dn" for "down"

      ...*Mind Blown*...

      Very clever, this!

    15. Re:(The Real) Murphy's Law strikes again! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      In Russian?

    16. Re:(The Real) Murphy's Law strikes again! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I think this was deliverate, wasn't it. Very funny. I'm labeling all my pen drives like this right now.

    17. Re:(The Real) Murphy's Law strikes again! by MickLinux · · Score: 1

      Kudos to you, I too got 0wned

      --
      Correct Horse Battery Staple: 72 bits of entropy. Enter "Correct H" into google. When it generates the phrase, that's
    18. Re:(The Real) Murphy's Law strikes again! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I'm pretty sure that was intentional. You don't have to assume nobody else on /. is as clever as you...

    19. Re:(The Real) Murphy's Law strikes again! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Gee, thanks for explaining the joke.

    20. Re:(The Real) Murphy's Law strikes again! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      *whoosh*

      (Pretty sure that was parent's point)

    21. Re:(The Real) Murphy's Law strikes again! by Flere+Imsaho · · Score: 1

      Well played, sir.

      --
      It gripped her hand gently. 'Regret is for humans,' it said.
    22. Re:(The Real) Murphy's Law strikes again! by Man+Eating+Duck · · Score: 1

      This is why nautical types use Port and Starboard instead of Left and Right for bits of the ship.

      No, it's not, that's just tradition. "Right" and "left" works equally well for designating location on a car, a train, or a ship. "Nautical types" use a lot of curious terminology which is not strictly necessary. It is useful for dressing down noobs using it wrongly, though :)

      --
      Are you a grammar Nazi? I'm trying to improve my English; please correct my errors! :)
  7. KSP by OptimalCynic · · Score: 2

    Hey, give them a break! I do that in Kerbal Space Program all the time!

    1. Re:KSP by oobayly · · Score: 1

      Squad must be ecstatic, KSP has become the de-facto analogy when it comes to space related tutorials pretty much everywhere.

    2. Re:KSP by OptimalCynic · · Score: 2

      When the rocket guides itself into the ground because you put something on upside down, it's the most appropriate analogy. I've done exactly that more than once, to the point where my mental pre-launch checklist includes "navball completely blue?"

    3. Re:KSP by Rhacman · · Score: 1

      The difference between reality and Kerbal Space Program is that in KSP you test your hugely expensive designs by just launching them and seeing if they crash whereas in reality... what point was I trying to make again?

      (Anyway, they should have just let Jeb pilot that thing. It might have still fireballed, but he's pulled off far stranger feats!)

      --
      Account -> Discussions -> Disable Sigs
  8. Like the old saying goes... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Garbage in, garbage out.

  9. CH3CH2(0H) by Unixnoteunuchs · · Score: 0

    Vodka may have been involved.

  10. Wrong hemisphere by jovius · · Score: 4, Funny

    Should have launched from Australia.

    1. Re:Wrong hemisphere by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Should have launched from Australia.

      Are you kidding? They were trying to place satellites in orbit. Had they launched from Australia with the inverted sensors they'd have landed on the Under Moon by now.

    2. Re:Wrong hemisphere by ArcadeMan · · Score: 3, Funny

      That's the problem. Some parts were made by subcontractors in Australia, where up is down, rats are as tall as humans and hop around and flat-chested 30-years-old women are classified as underage teenagers.

    3. Re:Wrong hemisphere by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      That's for a magnetometer. These were gyros (angular rate).

      Preflight obvious didn't include this check. And I'm surprised the simulation running against the R/T telemetry (which is a typical setup nowadays for launch facilities) didn't flag the rocket 100m as in "trouble" (heck look at the yaw rate!) and forced an ABORT--considering the engines were still running full throttle into the ground.

  11. Shipped in cardboard box? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Were they shipped in a cardboard box marked with an arrow and "this end up"? That would explain why. Nobody pays attention to that.

  12. I have an explanation by slashmydots · · Score: 0

    "It seems amazing that something as fundamental as this was not caught during quality control"
    I have an explanation: it's Russian

  13. Shades of the US "Genesis" sample return probe... by Ellis+D.+Tripp · · Score: 4, Interesting

    which plowed into the desert floor without deploying any parachutes because a G-switch was installed backwards...

    http://www.universetoday.com/73/genesis-accident-report-released/

    --
    Remember "News for Nerds, Stuff that Matters"? Help make it a reality again! http://soylentnews.org
  14. Duck Dodgers in the 24 1/2th Century by dkleinsc · · Score: 3, Funny

    "Whoopth, I had the thilly thing in reverthe!"

    --
    I am officially gone from /. Long live http://www.soylentnews.com/
  15. I have seen something similar. by 140Mandak262Jamuna · · Score: 3, Interesting
    Back in the day when I was with the ministry of defense we lost a vehicle due to an error like this. They had changed the vendor for the gyros of the roll sensor. The new gyros had the voltages in the reverse sense. It is possible one vendor was European and the other was American. They wired it according to the sense of the old vendor. So the control input to the ailerons would add to the roll instead of counteracting it. The RPV crashed 1.5 seconds after launch.

    In the postmortem the flight director started with, "... we sadly lost the vehicle after a flight of 1.5 seconds ...". The mission director interrupted, "What flight? The damned thing had a 6000 Kg[sic][*] rocket booster. You can put it under a 3 ton rock and it will 'fly' for more than 2 seconds..."

    [*]He should have said 6000 Kgf-sec, because that was the impulse delivered by the twin rocket boosters each 1500 Kgf thrust burning for 2 seconds.

    --
    sed -e 's/Chuck Norris/Rajnikant/g' joke > fact
  16. How do you say 'Murphy's Law' . . . by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    . . . In Russian?

    1. Re:How do you say 'Murphy's Law' . . . by VortexCortex · · Score: 1, Offtopic

      Gorbachev?

  17. Nice cosmodrome you've got here, Colonel... by RevWaldo · · Score: 1

    We wouldn't want anything to 'appen to it...

    .

  18. oops my mistake by Bramlet+Abercrombie · · Score: 1

    I thought the arrows pointed down because thats where the fire comes out.

  19. Mars orbital failure by Okian+Warrior · · Score: 5, Insightful

    The US once sent a probe all the way to mars, only to have it fail because the ground computer was in imperial units while the orbiter was in SI units.

    Getting everything correct is hard... really hard. For most projects you have elaborate "fail gracefully" modes which rely on external agents to notice the problem and take action. A doctor or pilot can take appropriate action, but it's hard to do with rockets.

    For comparison, I wrote the software for the altimeter that goes into some 747 aircraft. Total of about 21,000 lines of C, about 40% comments so figure 12,000 lines of code. The testers (and I) worked really hard to find all bugs in the system, knowing that a mistake could knock a plane out of the sky. There were elaborate internal checks both in software and process, and Boeing did their own testing on top of ours. Everything passed, all requirements were met, things looked good.

    The device had 1 bug, found after installation. A software typo which wasn't caught by QA even though it had a specific testing requirement. No one was negligent, it just slipped by despite best efforts.

    Multiply this by all the devices in an aircraft, and add in the other engineering disciplines like electronics and mechanical. It's really hard to get everything right all at once, and on the first try.

    1. Re:Mars orbital failure by Lumpy · · Score: 1

      But did you test it with absurd conditions? I rarely see any software testing that they say," ok let's install all the sensors backwards and see what it does" They assume that never happens and never test for what is assumed as "impossible to ever happen".

      --
      Do not look at laser with remaining good eye.
    2. Re:Mars orbital failure by Solandri · · Score: 1

      The US once sent a probe all the way to mars, only to have it fail because the ground computer was in imperial units while the orbiter was in SI units.

      That was a symptom, not the problem. The problem was that the people or software were not cross-checking the units on the numbers being copied. If you don't check the units, the exact same error can happen even if you use all SI units - e.g. someone hands you numbers in kN and you assume they're Newtons. Always check your units. If you get a number which doesn't have units, ask the person you got the numbers from what the units are. Never assume. And don't let the person you ask assume. Except for dimensionless numbers, any number without a unit should be treated the same as if someone typed in gibberish.

      In the Mars CO case the actual units happened to be Imperial while the assumed units were SI. But the fundamental problem was people were assuming what the units were, not an Imperial/SI mismatch. Using a consistent set of units merely increases the chances that the units you assume coincidentally are the actual units you were given. It doesn't fix the problem (doesn't increase the chance to 100%).

      In fact if you want to guarantee you've fixed the problem, every time a number gets passed to another subroutine or printed out to be passed to another person, it should be converted randomly to a modified SI unit (kilo, Mega, micro, etc) or its equivalent Imperial unit. That forces the receiving subroutine/person to check the units instead of assuming what the units are. If you do this, any subroutines or people still making assumptions will fail early in the testing phases, allowing you to correct them long before they can kill the actual mission.

    3. Re:Mars orbital failure by darkmeridian · · Score: 1

      It's really a matter of money, time, and process. I have referred to this article for years. Writing mission-critical code is about having a process in place that sets standards, guidelines, and checks and balances. These guys wrote code that had 420,000 lines and only one bug; commercial quality code of equivalent complexity would have 5,000 errors. They are one of four organizations in the world rated SEI Level 5.

      The most important part is the constant red-teaming. Verifiers are allowed to go to town and challenge the coders. It is clear that the rest of NASA doesn't have this mentality. We have seen shuttles explode and crash and burn because some political guy told the engineers to go fuck themselves. Imagine if there were a red-team that could have went to HQ and said, "We're not launching because of blow-by on the O-rings, and it's too fucking cold for too fucking long for the O-rings to stay pliant."

      --
      A NYC lawyer blogs. http://www.chuangblog.com/
    4. Re:Mars orbital failure by steelfood · · Score: 1

      Which is why airplanes still have multiple, independently-developed systems installed despite all of the prior checks and controls.

      It's not a practical solution for rockets though.

      --
      "If a nation expects to be ignorant and free in a state of civilization, it expects what never was and never will be."
    5. Re:Mars orbital failure by Chris+Mattern · · Score: 1

      Yes, but some things should be automatic to a competent designer. The statement "The component must be installed in this orientation" should elicit the response "then the component should be designed to be impossible to install in any other orientation" by reflex.

    6. Re:Mars orbital failure by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
    7. Re:Mars orbital failure by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "Every nontrivial program has at least one undiscovered and potentially fatal bug." - Anon.

    8. Re:Mars orbital failure by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Should've used Pint.

    9. Re:Mars orbital failure by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Not all critical systems have backup in an airplane. (example of non redundant system of the majority of airplanes: the left wing)

  20. So is there equality? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    So are the responsible going to jail... just like programmers go for bad development?

  21. Wait, Upside down you say? by VortexCortex · · Score: 1

    Quick! Before it's too late! Somebody call the Australian Space Agency!
    Tell them to look for any boxes not marked: \/ Fragile: Then End Down \/

  22. What about the brown plume? by Antipater · · Score: 2

    I'm confused by this explanation. An upside-down angular velocity sensor would definitely pitch the rocket out of control the way it did. But what about the brown plume that was clearly visible before the rocket lost it? The consensus seemed to be that that was unburned rocket fuel, implying an engine shutdown.

    I don't build rockets, but I can't see how an upside-down rotation sensor could cause an engine shutdown, especially since the shutdown occurred before the rocket began pitching.. Could there have been more than one problem on the rocket?

    --
    Everything is better with chainsaws.
    1. Re:What about the brown plume? by AlecC · · Score: 1

      I could imagine a completely separate attitude sensor shutting the engine down, with a pitch angle too small to see but large enough to detect. The rockets really are meant to fire straight down, and even a small error might well trigger a closedown.

      --
      Consciousness is an illusion caused by an excess of self consciousness.
    2. Re:What about the brown plume? by Lumpy · · Score: 1

      The computer could certainly shut down a rocket given bad information. IT probably wigged completely out and simply shut down that engine.

      --
      Do not look at laser with remaining good eye.
    3. Re:What about the brown plume? by Brett+Buck · · Score: 2

      I am not sure about the Proton, but earlier Russian boosters used differential throttling of the engines to control the attitude. The brown is probably excess oxidizer from running it off-mixture to throttle the engine and control the attitude - in this case to chase the erroneous gyro readings.

    4. Re:What about the brown plume? by firex726 · · Score: 1

      But aren't those engines NOT made to be restarted?
      if it's shut down, it stays shut down.

      Seems odd they would design it to be able to be shut down midflight. If say a part malfunctioned/errored and caused it shut down when it was not supposed to be.

  23. Disco nyet, disco nyet, russians early go to bed! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    > Each of those sensors had an arrow that was supposed to point toward the top of the vehicle, however multiple sensors on the failed rocket were pointing downward instead.

    The same reason brought down the soviet "Polyus" battle-satellite in 1987, as it was trying to ride into LEO, piggybacking a giant Energija rocket booster.

  24. heh by wbr1 · · Score: 4, Funny

    In Soviet Russia, snesors installed correctly, rocket installed upside down.

    --
    Silence is a state of mime.
    1. Re:heh by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      And the largest lawn dart project amost made it to the ground, next time will be a success.

  25. Hemisphere by bjb_admin · · Score: 1

    It wasn't that they were installed upside down, they were installed for a southern hemisphere launch!

  26. Touch cheese comrades by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Of course it's possible to add more controls and archive more security, but it also adds weight of vessel which in turn it cannot raise to orbit. Even if its a small thing those easily adds up. That's my first thought of this event.

    Anyway, this brings in to my mind a story loooong time back from -70's when I was still quite young. My father was a paper machinery pioneer and the company he was employed had sold a paper mill to Russia and was about to be delivered to city of Archangel (Koala Peninsula). The project was quite in the last moments some summer and we were spending summer holiday at our summer cottage when a company car was suddenly drove there. The driver had just a note telling that my father had to return immediately to work. There was some kind of severe issue with the machinery that had arrived to plant. Without further ado my father shaved his holiday beard and kissed us, her wife and me his son around 12 then, goodbye. He just quipped that he could be back by the evening or possibly next day. Well the days passed and we heard nothing. After 4 days we took a bus back to town were we lived and went to home. There was a short notice on kitchen table that he had to leave for a short trip to USSR to find out what are the problems with installation of the machinery.

    We heard nothing from him nor did his employer. He returned after 3 1/2 weeks and looked like he had lived in ghetto, he had lost weight, hadn't shaved, clothes were dirty and he smelled like a rat. Right after he had been in sauna and slept well, he next day told what had happened. He told that Russian customer (state committee or ministry which purchased all this large projects) had demanded that they send 3 to engineers (one of these my father) and their supervisor immediately to the site to solve the issues they had with the installation. The company (Valmet at that time) even though it was state owned too had agreed because they considered customer so important. So they drove with that same Lincoln from Central Finland towards Leningrad (St. Petersburgh) picking up Russian interpreter on their way and continued immediately to Archangel. To make the story shorter I just refer that he said it was a journey he never forget so many things happened next 12 hour while driving. OK, so they got to newly built paper mill site and went directly to see the problem. They found out that the site was completely built by the prisoners and they could only enter the site while there were no prisoners nor their guards or supervisors.

    Right, they found out quite soon that in that installation group were none, I repeat none, who could have been able to read technical documentation and understand it in details so that they could have done the preparations needed properly. The problem was that they had prepared the whole concrete base of the machinery so that it was all reversed left to right. They went and tried to explain the issue using interpreter to plant managers who seemed not first to understand the extent of the problem at all. To understand the scale think of it a paper mill of that time was 7-9 meters wide, it was about 400-500 meters long. Fixing the problem would take months as they have to first break and dig out the old, make new molds and then cast new concrete, wait it dries up enough and then they would be able to start proper installation. Once they got the word trough and installation and plant managers understand the scale they started demanding that the company had provided wrong machinery which left and right was mismatched and because of that the company had to deliver a completely new machinery etc.

    OK, just to shorten the long story more it's enough that I just tell that my father and his team spent several days before they got everybody convinced and that installation was not possible before they fix the base of the machinery properly. Knowing that would take very long and that they could come back once it's finished Russians suddenly didn't agree them to leave before the installation was done. They got the wo

    1. Re:Touch cheese comrades by RockDoctor · · Score: 1
      Sounds a pretty normal SNAFU job.

      One from my history : oil production platform was having an add-on applied to it - a module that would compress produced gas and pump it down a newly installed pipeline for sale onshore, instead of being used for fuel and burned off. Project required some machinery that connected to the existing machinery on the platform, plus a steel jacket set on the seabed to support the new machinery.

      Long story short : left hand design team built the support jacket on the assumption that sea level was figure X above seabed (a measure called "Lowest Astronomical Tides") ; right hand design team designed the surface equipment, pumps, etc on the assumption that things were so far above sea-level. But they used a measure of sea level called "Mean Sea Level".

      Major fuck up ; things didn't fit ; lines that should have let liquids run back to the platform sloped the wrong way ; no room or weight to put pumps onto the lines. M.A.J.O.R. fuck up. Took months to bodge up a solution. People responsible either fired or promoted - I never found out which. Situation 'Normal' : All Fucked Up.

      --
      Birds are not dinosaur descendants;birds are dinosaurs, for all useful meanings of "birds", "are" and "dinosaurs"
  27. Somebody got it in for the Russian government? by clickety6 · · Score: 1

    Interesting article on Space News
    http://www.spacenews.com/article/launch-report/36112proton-launch-failures-more-likely-when-russia-footing-the-bill#.Ud2DnPkyZ8E/
    that points out that the Proton launch failures have a mysterious correlation to whether the customer is private or government (with government launches being the unlucky ones).

    --
    ----------------------------------- My Other Sig Is Hilarious -----------------------------------
  28. This end should point toward the ground by Arancaytar · · Score: 2

    If you want to go to space.

    If it starts pointing toward space you are having a bad problem and you will not go to space today.

  29. causality by drwho · · Score: 1

    I am confused - did the upside-down sensors cause the other problems as well, such as the early disconnect of wiring, or are these all separate failures? If it's the latter, there needs to be some serious effort made to improve the design and construction.

    1. Re:causality by drinkypoo · · Score: 1

      I am confused - did the upside-down sensors cause the other problems as well, such as the early disconnect of wiring,

      I don't have an answer, but that seems highly plausible to me; if you install in the wrong orientation then the wiring can be pulled out. Automotive sensors occasionally can be installed in multiple positions but the cable only really reaches in one.

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
  30. sure, blame the sensor guy. by Vitriol+Angst · · Score: 1

    We just assume that the sensors were upside down -- but does anyone ask if the rocker wasn't upside down and the sensors right side up?

    No. No they do not. Installing sensors is a thankless job and nobody says; "Great sensor." They only talk to you if something goes wrong."

    >> Brought to you by the Anti Sensor Installer Defamation League

    --
    >>"ad space available -- low rates!!!"
    1. Re:sure, blame the sensor guy. by petes_PoV · · Score: 1

      All this talk implies that the sensors were installed in a vehicle with a pointy end pointing upwards. Isn't it entirely possible that the sensors were installed at some point well before the vehicle was commissioned and there was no "up" or "down" (only left or right) on the parts that the sensors get attached to. Maybe the sensors _were_ installed correctly, but the whole subassembly was the wrong way round?

      --
      politicians are like babies' nappies: they should both be changed regularly and for the same reasons
  31. Designing quality in by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    The components were well engineered, but the design of the component was lacking. Installing something backwards should not be possible, and that's part of the design too. Installing computer memory chips is really difficult to do if you install them backwards, because there is a notch preventing it. I've built printed circuit boards (professionally) and have also installed motherboards into computers. In most cases you can't install the wiring harnesses incorrectly because either it doesn't reach the socket, or the number of pins is incorrect. Installing microprocessor chips backwards is impossible because of the notch, and the pins would be up (not able to reach the ball grid array at the bottom) if you put it in upside down.

  32. Behavior shaping constraints by sjbe · · Score: 1

    What stops the key from being installed wrongly?

    The design of the key and the tooling and processes used to produce it. Speaking generally you use behavior shaping constraints which prevent incorrect assembly. Proper design, interlocks, jigs and fixtures, automated tooling, and lots of other tools are used to eliminate mistakes.

    Anything that relies on visual inspection by a human WILL eventually have an error. My company makes wire harnesses and every time we are forced to rely on a visual inspection process there inevitably are some errors. Most of the time the need for these visual inspection can be done away with with product design and in some cases some tooling. However many engineers can't be bothered to design for assembly or the cost of the mistake proofing is not justified by cost of an error.

    1. Re:Behavior shaping constraints by OnlineAlias · · Score: 1

      It is surprising to me that they didn't also have to be calibrated before flight. 2 lines of code could have checked to see that the rocket is indeed not upside down before launch. There are a million ways to make these things foolproof, and none of them were implemented. Closed loop design is not a part of the Russian way, apparently.

    2. Re:Behavior shaping constraints by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
      "However many engineers can't be bothered to design for assembly"

      I work in a space lab. Your comment is exacly correct. Identical connectors, wire colours and flanges abound. Keyed connectors sometimes get used, but the idea of keyways on mounts is anaethma.

      It's not good in an environment where practically every part is custom made and hand assembled. (Who remembers the fuss over results from the Mars Rovers until it was worked out the camera assemblies had eben swapped over post-calibration? Simple metal stamping would have solved that)

      As for the cost, a lost launch ios a lost oopportunity and can't be quantified - however organisations get to keep the funding already given out along with some more to build new stuff, so there's not all that much incentive to get it right in a lot of areas.

      Anonymous because I need to keep my job.

  33. Sofware Fix? by bill_mcgonigle · · Score: 2

    Can the flight control system verify the sensor readings before launch? "Sensor 7 says the rocket is pointing towards the Earth on the launchpad - we might want to have a look".

    --
    My God, it's Full of Source!
    OUTSIDE_IP=$(dig +short my.ip @outsideip.net)
    1. Re:Sofware Fix? by Immerman · · Score: 1

      angular velocity sensors. They'll read 0 regardless of orientation.They could be tested by repeatedly raising and laying down the rocket in different planes, but that gets expensive and is probably dangerous and damaging to a mechanism designed primarily for lateral stresses.

      --
      --- Most topics have many sides worth arguing, allow me to take one opposite you.
    2. Re:Sofware Fix? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Likely the sensors were relative measurements. Zero calibrated at start. Angular rate against ground truth is actually hard, especially if you don't have a fixed star to look at. And Earth based references just aren't good enough for the speed rockets are moving.

  34. Redesign is not the solution by petes_PoV · · Score: 1

    Even the simplest of mechanical interlocks (such as a notch at one end that must be matched with a corresponding projection)

    This only moves the problem, it doesn't fix it. There is now the possibility for the sensors to be installed correctly into mechanical interlocks that were themselves installed upside down

    --
    politicians are like babies' nappies: they should both be changed regularly and for the same reasons
    1. Re:Redesign is not the solution by thereitis · · Score: 1

      Taking that to its logical conclusion, you could assemble the entire rocket upside down. At some point there has to be a base to reference everything else from.

    2. Re:Redesign is not the solution by Shimbo · · Score: 1

      Looking at the photos, it appears that the sensor units were the right way up. It was the rest of the rocket that was upside down.

  35. Just a question by 50000BTU_barbecue · · Score: 2
    Should they have launched from Australia instead?

    Yeah, weak joke, sorry.

    --
    Mostly random stuff.
  36. other failures by jonnymacuser · · Score: 1

    In 2011 the Mars-bound Russian Fobos-Grunt failed because of a programming error which led to a simultaneous reboot of two working channels of an onboard computer, leaving the craft parked in low-Earth orbit and eventually uncontrolled re-entry over the Pacific Ocean. In 1999 NASA's Mars Climate Orbiter disintegrated in the Martian upper atmosphere due to ground based computer software which produced output in non-SI units of pound-seconds (lbf×s) instead of the metric units of newton-seconds (N×s) specified in the contract between NASA and Lockheed.

  37. Cost cutting by Lumpy · · Score: 1

    When you try to make things cheaper you get failures.

    --
    Do not look at laser with remaining good eye.
    1. Re:Cost cutting by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      When you try to make things cheaper you get failures.

      Only when you do it the wrong way. Ie. by cutting corners instead of doing things in a smarter way.

  38. This End Not Up. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I remember seeing a box in a warehouse that had "This end not up!" printed on the side.

    Good idea!

  39. you mean the part where "ours always blow up?" by swschrad · · Score: 1

    things are always unstable during test periods. once a device this complicated, like a space booster or a 787 for instance, gets certified and enters serial production, that is the part where inspections and workers empowered to shut down the line becomes the paramount safety mechanism.

    --
    if this is supposed to be a new economy, how come they still want my old fashioned money?
  40. In post-Soviet Russia... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    You blow up rockets.

  41. speculation about up by Pro923 · · Score: 0

    I could imagine that some modules of a rocket could be assembled in a 'downward' facing orientation.

  42. This kind of thing is not unusual by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    This brings to mind a project that I was involved with. part of the system involved an electronic compass that provided bearing information to a computer. On testing, someone noticed that the bearing angle seemed to be reversed A programmer cleverly fixed the "problem" in software - obviously it must have been some kind of bug in the compass software. What had actually happened was that the compass had been installed upside down and the software fix was not completely successful - the compass had a tilt compensation feature that worked incorrectly in this configuration.

    1. Re:This kind of thing is not unusual by PPH · · Score: 1

      You don't happen to work in Toulouse or Seattle, do you?

      --
      Have gnu, will travel.
  43. Good to Know by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    It's somehow satisfying to know that contractors overbilling the government, stealing from taxpayers, and generally being inept while promoting the "efficiency" of contracting out government work is apparently how it works everywhere, even Russia.

  44. For a pennyworth of tar, the ship was lost by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    "For the want of a pennyworth of tar, the ship was lost."
    We have sayings covering this system failure going back centuries, and probably even thousands of years. In London for instance, a few years make, a fuel depot near London was lost at the cost of hundreds of millions of pounds, because they would not emply a single night-watchman- an employee who would have spotted the small, clearly visible, external leak.

    Why is it that even when a system is a multi-billion dollar one, there is penny-scraping at the bottom where mission critical work is being done.

    You know what makes a difference? NASA producing building full of written regulations defining everything? NO! Paying the people in charge salaries of hundreds of millions of dollars? NO! Creating a regime where everyone wants to take pride in their work, and everyone feels their opinions can make a difference? YES!

    Do you seriosly thing that the people handling those sensors were NOT amazed and disgusted that they lacked fool-proof orientation mechanisms? Why then was this situation not corrected? Well, here's an analogue. Those useless cretins at Intel are responible for every modern interconnect used on hundreds of millions of PCs. Notice that USB plugs lack a positive orientation, and that you have to 'try' inserting to discover which way round they go. (BTW, USB is also useless at the electrical AND network layers too). Did Intel make these angular velocity sensors (I joke, but not really)?

    "They'll know what we mean" is the cry of every useless engineer. Here's the test. An Intel class engineer will place the words "open this end" on a box. A decent engineer will place the words "open the OTHER end" on the same box. THINK ABOUT IT!

    Anyway, anyone with a shred of intelligence in this business KNOWS all critical parts/plugs must be given a keyed receptacle that can ONLY take the plug/part in the correct orientation. In the case of a plug (linear with lots of connectors) that could be forced to fit in the wrong orientation (and Humans always find a way to do this), it is essential that no proper fuctioned appears to occur, and if possible no damage is done to the system (through power lines transposed etc).

    This angular velocity sensor shouldn't have even tested correctly when fitted the wrong way round. Have these clowns never heard of diodes and the like.

    Being old enough to have done 'IT' when IT referenced old punch-card class computing, I vividly recall hearing about the specialist job of 'data entry', and how all data was entered by TWO seperate people, allowing the correctness to be cross-checked. Of course someone checked the work that built this rocket, BUT with the purpose of signing off on the work at the lowest possible cost.

    Done properly the checker would be comparing a photo of the ideal build with the actual build, but the sensors may have been 'new' parts replacing the previously used ones, and thus looked different. Indeed, if new sensors were being used, it is possible they replaced previous designs that did have positive but 'different' positive orientation insertion mechanisms. Anyone who builds anything knows the issue of having to swap the parts being used at short-notice. The new part may (hopefully on a temp build basis) have to be 'forced' to fit in the location where the old part went.

    One might argue that the Proton rocket builders should havekept massive stocks of 'spare' parts, BUT this ignores several factors. Some parts may 'rot' in storage (perhaps a new alloy is suffering fatal electo-migration after a few years). Some parts of the design may require an upgrade after investigations prove the existing design is inadequate in some respect.However, this does not mitigate the care with which new parts must be introduced. The 'build' guidelines must be updated all along the production line. New photographs of correct builds must be made, and given to workers/inspectors. Foolproof orientation mechanisms must be introduced as soon as possible for new parts (although this may take

    1. Re:For a pennyworth of tar, the ship was lost by heypete · · Score: 1

      But then again, we watched at the weekend as Canada destroyed the heart of one of its towns with an explosion caused by 'indestructable' and 'safe under every circumstance' oil-containing railway cars.

      Who says the tank cars were "indestructible" or "safe under any circumstance"?

      The tank cars involved in the Lac-Megantic incident were the DOT-111 type, which are the most common single type of railway tank car in North America. There have been concerns over the integrity of such tank cars for several decades. Various standards were changed a few years ago to improve the integrity of newly-made tank cars but existing tank cars are grandfathered in.

      Pretty much nobody is claiming the tank cars are impervious to damage, and experts like the NTSB (US) and TSBC (CA) have expressed concerns over how easily the tanks can fail.

  45. The short answer is "yes" by Okian+Warrior · · Score: 2

    The short answer is "yes".

    All functions range-checked their arguments on entry, calculations range-checked their results before performing further calculations, precondition logic was tested to ensure the preconditions held, periodic testing checked as many "things that should never happen" as we could think of.

    We never ignored a possibility because it was absurd, so long as there was a way to test it it was tested. The difficulty is coming up with a comprehensive list of things to check... very hard to do in practice.

    1. Re:The short answer is "yes" by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      I recall an anecdote -- which I have not been able to verify -- that, when the Air Force received the first F-16 for testing by military pilots, the first test pilot, after performing all of the requisite preflight checks and getting strapped into the bird, deliberately flipped the 'gear retract' switch with the plane sitting stationary on the apron. The gear retracted, dropping the aircraft onto the concrete. The aircraft was taken away for repair, and squat switches were hurriedly installed on all the test aircraft to prevent the gear from retracting if there was any weight on them.

      The presence of the squat switches on military aircraft landing gear, however, has led to a number of pilot-error takeoff crashes due to reliance on their function. Despite being officially prohibited, pilots would flip the gear-retract switch on their aircraft before beginning their takeoff roll; this would result in the gear retracting the moment the plane left the ground, which was considered to look 'strack'. Unfortunately, if the aircraft encountered a gust of wind during takeoff, it could momentarily produce enough lift to come up off the squat switches, allowing the gear to retract, and after the gust passes, the aircraft -- not having actually reached flying speed -- would settle back onto its belly on the runway.

    2. Re:The short answer is "yes" by u38cg · · Score: 1
      I've heard that anecdote a couple of times in variant forms, not always military.

      Surely it would be simple enough to enforce that the switch must be re-engaged before acting if the failsafe has been triggered?

      --
      [FUCK BETA]
  46. US did the same thing by PDG · · Score: 1

    The Thor missile, the first of the intermediate range ballistic missiles had the same issue on its 2nd launch causing the range operator to hit the self destruct button in fear that it was going the wrong way.

    --
    "Where is my mind?"
  47. Re:Shades of the US "Genesis" sample return probe. by oneiros27 · · Score: 1

    'a' G-switch ?

    *all* of them were installed upside down. (although 'all' might have only been two)

    --
    Build it, and they will come^Hplain.
  48. uber-doh by nozzo · · Score: 1

    The loud sound of palms slapping foreheads after that was discovered caused a cow to give birth.

  49. Contractors? by whitroth · · Score: 3, Interesting

    The Russians are using contractors, now?

    On the other hand, they seem to be doing vastly better than the US these days - we have NO WAY to put someone in orbit (unless the Pentagon's got a black program).

    We also had Challenger and Columbia. And on the latter note, I'll add that I believe my late ex's analysis, rather than the "it's falling insulation" answer. She was an engineer, and worked at the Cape for 17 years, including on the Shuttle, and she thought that some of the inspections that were supposed to be done were *not* being done, or not being done as frequently as they were supposed to have been... and that the hydraulic lines broke due to stress corrosion microcracking, and there went the aerilons.

    So, how many astronauts/cosmonauts have the Russians lost lately?

                      mark

    1. Re:Contractors? by u38cg · · Score: 1

      Plausible, but you'd think someone would have blown the whistle by now.

      --
      [FUCK BETA]
  50. Mod Parent DOWN by Brett+Buck · · Score: 1

    What you do mean there is no angular velocity? It's on the Earth and the Earth is turning. Gyros for this application can easily sense Earth rate, that's an absolutely classic check for proper operation prelaunch.

    1. Re:Mod Parent DOWN by Panaflex · · Score: 1

      Most likely the sensors were made to measure large changes in velocity and not small subtle ones. Otherwise the data would be far noisier and would require more processing power to distill actual values.

      --
      I said no... but I missed and it came out yes.
    2. Re:Mod Parent DOWN by Brett+Buck · · Score: 2

      Not correct. If you cannot accurately sense this rate (~15 deg/hr) you will go far off the trajectory in a 10-15 minute boost. It absolutely cannot tolerate errors of a few degrees. Checking for the proper rates is an absolutely standard pre-launch check and typically, any biases in this are calibrated out while on the pad based on the known alignment of the rocket and the lat/long of the pad.

  51. It's more than just QC, it's also design by BLToday · · Score: 1

    if it's something critical and only functions correctly in one direction, you need to design it so that it only fits one way.

  52. It's called sabotage by chemosh6969 · · Score: 1

    and it's not just a Beastie Boys song anymore

  53. Bad engineering is everywhere by sjbe · · Score: 1

    Closed loop design is not a part of the Russian way, apparently.

    Trust me when I say that is not remotely unique to the Russians. You wouldn't believe how poorly designed some of the products I deal with are. Virtually every drawing we get requires some amount of redesign because it either can't be built or will work badly. We had a customer that made heart lung machines who didn't even have an accurate bill of materials. I'm not talking just a little bit off either - they had NO idea what most of the part numbers were. We had to tell them the parts that were in their own product.

  54. Foolproof and complete fools by Solandri · · Score: 1

    Each of those sensors had an arrow that was supposed to point toward the top of the vehicle, however multiple sensors on the failed rocket were pointing downward instead.

    I've never considered this a good way to denote orientation - you have to learn that the arrow is supposed to point up. If you ask a random person on the street who's never seen this (it's common in packaging) which way the arrow is supposed to point, I'll bet half will say down because that's the way gravity pulls things.

    Even more amazing is that the design of the sensors permits them to be installed in the wrong orientation in the first place. Even the simplest of mechanical interlocks (such as a notch at one end that must be matched with a corresponding projection) could have prevented the accident.

    A mechanical interlock is one of those things which is unappreciated when it's there. So what happens is you design stuff with interlocks for years, and nothing goes wrong. Then someone thinks, "Nothing has ever gone wrong with this before, why bother designing a safety system to prevent a problem which has never occurred?" They skip the interlock this iteration, and it causes a catastrophic failure.

  55. Easy to fool a foolproof system by avandesande · · Score: 1

    "Even the simplest of mechanical interlocks (such as a notch at one end that must be matched with a corresponding projection) could have prevented the accident."

    Unless the sockets are installed upside-down.....

    --
    love is just extroverted narcissism
  56. True Communism Works by ThatsNotPudding · · Score: 1

    True Communism works perfectly. Until people are involved.

    Marx could never quite figure out that little detail.

  57. The same problem caused the Stardust crash by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    NASA's "Stardust" sample return that used aerogel to capture solar wind and solar system dust crash-landed in the Utah desert because of a similar sensor installed in the opposite orientation from where it should have been in the re-entry vehicle.

  58. Amateurs by gweihir · · Score: 1

    There are no velocity sensors that work on rockets. There are however acceleration sensors. These can quite handily be tested on the ground using the 1G acceleration equivalent gravitational pull. It is a simple test, takes seconds, and immediately shows orientation very precisely. Not testing orientation on these sensors after assembly is exceedingly stupid.

    --
    Most ACs are not even worth the keystrokes to insult them. Be generically insulted by this and ignored otherwise.
    1. Re:Amateurs by Blaskowicz · · Score: 1

      This is something I don't understand. If something is tied, or lays on the desk, how the hell is it accelerating at -9.8 m.s^-2 ?
      I'm sitting on a chair, but I'm not in really in freefall, since my ass doesn't fly through the chair, then floors, then crust and upper mantle till I'm dwelling at the center of the Earth. And the story is about angular sensors anyway.

    2. Re:Amateurs by DMUTPeregrine · · Score: 1

      These were angular acceleration sensors, not linear. Testing on the ground would involve tilting the rocket.

      --
      Not a sentence!
    3. Re:Amateurs by gweihir · · Score: 1

      Ah, sorry. That makes it a bit more difficult. Not true even for them if they have reasonable sensitivity, as the earth does rotate. But they may not have. It that case, the amateur level comes from not coming up with a verification procedure for something that can easily go wrong.

      --
      Most ACs are not even worth the keystrokes to insult them. Be generically insulted by this and ignored otherwise.
    4. Re:Amateurs by gweihir · · Score: 1

      Duality between gravitation and acceleration. In fact, relativity says gravitation_is_ acceleration. Sorry, requires some advanced reading to understand.

      --
      Most ACs are not even worth the keystrokes to insult them. Be generically insulted by this and ignored otherwise.
  59. Re:Shades of the US "Genesis" sample return probe. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    I was actually in the audience when one of the guys involved in this project (an engineer, but high up) was giving a presentation discussing the event. It's not as simple as "some moron put this in backwards!!!" like everyone here seems to think. It was actually because the design indicated the sensor should be installed in the wrong orientation and no one caught it. It went past multiple reviews and was observed by tens, if not hundreds, of pairs of eyes. There was a test that they could have performed that would have caught the problem, but the decision was made to skip the test because the project was running behind and they had to cut out some of the tests. Multiple people signed off on that decision. Eventually it was determined that the disaster was no one person's fault and that it was simply something that managed to slip by everyone.

    You also have to realize that this was one part out of a million. People are claiming that everyone involved is a complete dumbass or entirely incompetent because they screwed up a single part out of all the parts that make up a spacecraft.

  60. Jeb by stickrnan · · Score: 1

    would have saved the rocket.

  61. If any industry needed unit testing by TheSkepticalOptimist · · Score: 1

    Its fucking the rocket science industry.

    I mean I cannot perceive how this was not caught. At some point while the rocket is sitting on the launch pad, someone must have run through some kind of test diagnostics, any sensor involved in resolving direction should be on that list of checks:

    Sensor 1 Direction: UP - OK
    Sensor 2 Direction: UP - OK
    Sensor 3 Direction: UP - OK
    Sensor 4 Direction: DOWN - Abort!, Abort!, Abort!

    Anyways, its easy to over trivialize this as we don't know what is really involved in making a rocket go...oh yes, its to make sure fire comes out the bottom and the rest of it goes UP!

    --
    I haven't thought of anything clever to put here, but then again most of you haven't either.
  62. metric vs imperial the real story by mbkennel · · Score: 1

    None. It wasn't any scientist. The real story.

    JPL did the previous mission themselves (Pathfinder), and JPL like all scientists used metric. A later mission, a congressdroid insists that some of it gets outsourced to one of the military-aerospace contractors with a plant in his district. This contractor has an old geezer running the division who insists only on imperial.

    So JPL and Hockleed have to go back and forth for their navigation procedures. Contractor puts a fresh college graduate on the program, you know to lower costs.

    1. Re:metric vs imperial the real story by volmtech · · Score: 1

      A Canadian air line had a new jet but the fuel gauges malfunctioned. They measured the fuel level in the tanks but the dip stick they used was marked in liters. The pilots converted liters to gallons and thought they had enough fuel, but they used the American gallon conversion of 3.7 liter to gal instead of 4.5 liter for imperial gal. At thirty thousand feet they ran out of fuel. The pilots did a safe dead stick landing on an abandoned forest runway.

  63. Link for the uninformed by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    It is the best quote from obligatory xkcd number 1133: The Up Goer Five

    A diagram of the Saturn Five rocket only using the top ten thousand words people use the most often.

    1. Re:Link for the uninformed by PPH · · Score: 1
      --
      Have gnu, will travel.
  64. A quick note by Okian+Warrior · · Score: 1

    Which is why airplanes still have multiple, independently-developed systems installed despite all of the prior checks and controls.

    It's not a practical solution for rockets though.

    You are correct, and IMO this is the right way to do things.

    Note that 747's have two altimeters running the same software. It was pointed out in development that if one of them had a problem, the other one would likely exhibit the same problem at the same time.

    This is a subject close to my heart, and which deserves a lot of thought and discussion. We're putting lots of software into medical and aircraft these days. Software in cars does not get the same level of scrutiny or regulatory process, and with the advent of self-driving cars perhaps they should.

    I'd be interested in people's opinions on this. Where should we draw the line on regulatory process? Aircraft and medical are obvious, but how about cars, smart [power] meters, phone COs, or industrial controllers? Should the West Texas fertilizer plant have had regulatory oversight on their control systems, for instance?

    Having a program crash the user's PC is relatively benign and can be handled as a customer service issue. Nowadays we're putting software in many more places which affects public safety.

    1. Re:A quick note by Zynder · · Score: 1

      The only regulation that the West Texas fertilizer plant should have had, was to not put it right in the middle of the damned town. They cannot claim ignorance as they installed audible sirens to warn of an impending disaster yet continued to build high occupancy buildings near by (the schools and retirement homes). This is a fine example of corporate greed.

  65. Bill the Cat strikes again by flogger · · Score: 1

    Maybe Bill the cat had a new job.. while in Russia.

    --
    ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~
    "First things first -- but not necessarily in that order"
    -- The Doctor, "Doctor
  66. ObQuote by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    The Russkie talks big, but frankly, we think he's short of know how. I mean, you just can't expect a bunch of ignorant peons to understand a machine like some of our boys. And that's not meant as an insult, Mr. Ambassador, I mean, you take your average Russkie, we all know how much guts he's got. Hell, lookit look at all them them Nazis killed off and they still wouldn't quit.

  67. The cost of privatizing the space industry by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    This is what happens when Russia lets businessmen handle their space efforts.

  68. Launch from Australia by coinreturn · · Score: 1

    They should have launched from Australia. That would solve the arrow upside-down problem.

  69. Simple fix by LoRdTAW · · Score: 2

    You wouldn't need a notch, you simply move the screw holes around so they aren't square. The best method is a trapezoid pattern. Two screw holes are set closer together. Impossible to mount upside down or sideways. Or simply shift one screw hole like the ATX power supplies do.

    1. Re:Simple fix by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Self tapping screws and a little force fixes will those missaligned screw holes every time.

      Here in Australia where a little ingenuity comes after your tenth beer I've seen a heatsink put on diagonally with extra long screws straight through the motherboard!

    2. Re:Simple fix by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      sure this works. IFF you make sure, that every time it's mounted all screws are used.

  70. Up/Down Left/Right by rwa2 · · Score: 1

    Well, in an attempt to get things back on topic... I recall one of the big differences in the US and Russian space programs was that the US would build their rockets upright and roll them out to the launch pad that way, while the Russians would build their rockets sideways, and then hoist them upright at the launchpad.

    So really it's not an issue of them not knowing up from down, but left from right.

    OK, now go back into reading that politically what you will.

  71. From the same people that brought you Chernobyl... by Chas · · Score: 2, Informative

    And the K19.
    And the K141 (The Kursk)
    Soyuz 1
    Soyuz 11
    And about half a dozen other fatal accidents involving shoddy workmanship.

    --


    Chas - The one, the only.
    THANK GOD!!!
  72. Professor Farnsworth ... by PPH · · Score: 2

    ... did the same thing with a seven segment timer on a bomb. He thought he had 50 minutes until it started counting seconds down "6h, 8h, Lh ...". Then Bender turned it over.

    You'd think the Russians would study other industries lessons learned and best practices.

    --
    Have gnu, will travel.
    1. Re:Professor Farnsworth ... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Oddly, I have no recollection of that -- which episode?

      But anyway, since "6h, 8h, Lh" is "49, 48, 47", I'm going to assume it was actually 50 seconds (00:50) to start, and the good* Professor was reading it as five minutes (05:00), not fifty.

      * news, everyone!

    2. Re:Professor Farnsworth ... by PPH · · Score: 1
      --
      Have gnu, will travel.
  73. Don't be so fast to criticize by indy_bob_twobears · · Score: 1

    Is this any different than confusing inches and centimeters?

  74. Interlocks by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Why would you make an interlock to prevent them from being installed backwards? There could be many instances where you want to install them backwards... but some damn engineer designed them not to be!

  75. Re:From the same people that brought you Chernobyl by jratcliffe · · Score: 1

    In fairness, some of those (Chernobyl, certainly) were the result of flawed _design_, not workmanship.

  76. How was it possible to connect the cable? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Enough about screw hole patterns. Rockets aren't designed to carry extra weight or bulk without reason, so cables are are trimmed to fit. This sensor seems to have a cable coming off from it. How was it possible for the cable to be connected? Why was the cable long enough to allow this?

  77. Not contractors by Zynder · · Score: 1

    In Soviet Russia, they are called conscripts and not contractors. Work is difficult, often with complaints of "This thing is heavy" but after awhile, they followed them up with praise like "At least we have job!" & "For Mother Russia!" so it all turned out well in end.

    1. Re:Not contractors by whitroth · · Score: 1

      So, how old are you? I'm so old, I remember the USSR on current maps. You, on the other hand, seem to have missed the end of the Soviet Russia 20+ years ago....

                  mark

    2. Re:Not contractors by Zynder · · Score: 1

      36! My UID is high because I've had to make multiple accounts over the years. Been here on /. since 1999. That post was a reference though to Command and Conquer: Red Alert 2. It's what the conscript & flak trooper units said when you told them to do stuff.

  78. Ah yes by PPH · · Score: 1

    Another fine example of the Russian Reversal.

    --
    Have gnu, will travel.
  79. Ob. Armageddon by DarthVain · · Score: 1

    Lev Andropov: It's stuck, yes?
    Watts: Back off! You don't know the components!
    Lev Andropov: [annoyed] Components. American components, Russian Components, ALL MADE IN TAIWAN!

  80. Re:The quality control problems... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I was wondering when someone would get around to quality control on the subject line. I guess it might as well be me.

    You made a heck of a lot of good points in a short post. Herr Hitler was democratically elected twice by the populace and his movement was financed by industrialists (capitalists) who were afraid the Reds were going to take over the country. Before they stepped in the help out the infant Nazi party Hitler was just some ex corporal who had served jail time. Those brown shirts cost money and someone had to foot the bill!

    In return for keeping the communists at bay and advancing his cause, Hitler helped out the industrialists by building a lot of tanks, planes, and ships. Unemployment drops to near zero as people are either in the armed services or the war industries. Everyone wins! Well, with the exception of the people who are conquered or sent off to camps.