Edward Snowden Still Stuck At Airport, May Be Permitted Entry Into Russia Soon

sl4shd0rk writes "Edward Snowden, the enlightening NSA Whistleblower, may have been granted refuge in Russia as reported by Interfax News. He has apparently been given papers (and a change of clothes) by the Russian government to allow him to soon leave the Sheremetyevo airport. The delay in exodus, cited by a Russian official, is apparently due to the 'uniqueness' of the situation being cause for thorough review of Snowden's Asylum request." Reports are conflicting; WaPo and Reuters say Snowden's Asylum application is still in limbo, whereas other sources are claiming only minor details are blocking his exit and he may be allowed to leave as early as tomorrow. What is certain is that he's not leaving today despite early reports claiming he could.

Comments

Give up now!

[Anonymous Coward]

Really, is a life at ADX Florence worse that what he is going through now? Turn yourself in Edward. You'll even get a black and white TV in your all concrete cell and up to 30 minutes a day outside to exercise in your own private exercise yard. And to be fair, the Bradley Manning Treatment will only be applied for about 6 months before your trial. It isn't forever.

Re:Give up now!

[TWiTfan]

If he agrees to wear a muzzle and gag, they may even let him talk to his lawyer at Christmas.

and a change of clothes

[slashmydots]

Whoa. It's been what, like 3 weeks and I've never seen a laundromat in an airport, especially one that lets you stand there naked. So he's been in the same clothes the whole time. Ugh!
They do have a hotel or something like that in there though, right?

Re:and a change of clothes

[turp182]

CNN has had a couple of corespondents try and find Snowden at the airport. There's actually a hotel has a floor that isn't considered Russian territory (having not passed through customs) that they will bus you off airport property to. There's room service, and probably laundry as well.

http://www.cnn.com/2013/07/11/world/europe/russia-snowden-goodman-transit/index.html?iref=allsearch

Interesting read actually. And of course they didn't see him...

Re:and a change of clothes

[slashmydots]

I was wondering about some sort of offsite hotel arrangement like that. If he took the bus (though Russian territory) then obviously that was kept on the down low. Then just order some new clothes on ebay, ship to the hotel, and kill some time. If I had one guess, he's just playing Neverwinter on a laptop all day and probably is level 60 already, lol. I've seen like 8 players named Snowden so far so who knows.

Re:and a change of clothes

[interkin3tic]

If he took the bus (though Russian territory) then obviously that was kept on the down low.

If an airport terminal in a country can be considered "not in a country" and that works, and a hotel can also be considered "not really in a country", why not a bus?

For that matter, the whole idea of countries is purely artificial anyway. The US isn't respecting agreed upon international law anyway. They're only not pulling him out of the airport, bus, hotel, or whatever because that would create more headaches than not taking revenge on him. And because they probably expect to get him anyway.

Re:and a change of clothes

[ShanghaiBill]

And because they probably expect to get him anyway.

Or because they want him to get away. Of course they have to put on a show of trying to get him, but do they really want to? The "Snowden Affair" is quietly fading away, with all the NSA spying intact. Bringing him back to the USA for a trial would put the issue back on the front page. The government prefers that we all focus on Will and Kate's new baby instead.

Re:and a change of clothes

[Deadstick]

If an airport terminal in a country can be considered "not in a country" and that works, and a hotel can also be considered "not really in a country", why not a bus?

Quite right. As long as he's continuously under the control of the immigration authority, he's still "in transit".
Not uncommon to bus international passengers between airplanes and customs/immigration, especially if the airport has construction going on.

Re:and a change of clothes

[loufoque]

It's out?
Why didn't anyone tell me?

Re:and a change of clothes

[colin_faber]

Seems like a nice airport, maybe he's bathing in the fountains near the strip club.

Re:and a change of clothes

[cayenne8]

Or because they want him to get away. Of course they have to put on a show of trying to get him, but do they really want to? The "Snowden Affair" is quietly fading away, with all the NSA spying intact. Bringing him back to the USA for a trial would put the issue back on the front page. The government prefers that we all focus on Will and Kate's new baby instead.

They also seem to needlessly be trying to keep the Travyon/George thing going, another thing to help distract from Federal govt spying and persecution on the US public...something I think is more important that some state level case that a jury has already decided.

Re:and a change of clothes

[Anonymous Coward]

In most civilized countries, it is not illegal to be naked.

Only in religious extremist countries are there such laws. (Coming from the lie that being naked would somehow be a "sin", or the new lie that it would somehow "harm" children. When in reality, 1. every child has gone though a pussy, head first, and has sucked on tits, before the age of 1; 2. only shows curiosity and later surprise when seeing a naked person; and 3. it's only grown-ups who are socially conditioned to have weird reactions to it.)

Your pure body, is not a "sin", nor a crime. It harms nobody. It's those who see a naked man with a boner sitting under a tree, and think about rape, who are fucked up. (Including if they are that man.) Normal people don't think about rape or harassing others or child abuse, even when *fapping* in public *with* children nearby! They think about a girl they went out with, or some porn they watched, etc. Only fucked-up people think that fucked-up shit.

Release the...

[zlives]

before its gone into the belly of the beast

We still don't know much of the situation

[Anonymous Coward]

Unreported: how much contact Snowden has had personally with the Russian authorities, just like we have no idea how much contact he had with Hong Kong's.

Is he trading info for asylum?

Re:We still don't know much of the situation

[Anonymous Coward]

Unreported: how much contact Snowden has had personally with the Russian authorities, just like we have no idea how much contact he had with Hong Kong's.

Is he trading info for asylum?

Let me rephrase this unfounded speculation with the purpose of impugning his character:

Is Edward Snowden selling US secrets because he hates freedom?. We don't know. We're just asking the question. Next on Fox News, why don't we know if Snowden has terrorist connections? Is the mainstream media covering this up? We report, you decide.

Re:We still don't know much of the situation

[cold fjord]

Here are some things we do know.

The Russian lawyer that has been speaking for Snowden for some time now is Anatoly Kucherena. Kucherena is head of public relations for the FSB, the successor to the KGB. So the KGB running interference for Snowden and his laptops full of stolen American secrets. John Walker must be jealous.*

Snowden's Choice For Russian Asylum Reveals His 'Mind-Boggling Naiveté'

David Francis' Fiscal Times write-up digs into Snowden for his "mind boggling naiveté":

He is asking for asylum in a country that continues to openly squash dissent, often using violent tactics. Putin runs the country with an iron fist, has jailed people who oppose him, and has chased others out of the country. Opponents have been known to meet early deaths, often under suspicious circumstances.

Francis notes the untimely, often gruesome deaths of several political opponents to Putin over the years...

To make matters worse, the person seemingly speaking for Snowden now — Russian attorney Anatoly Kucherena — also happens to be the head of public relations for the FSB.

Freelance reporter and intelligence expert Joshua Foust writes: "The involvement of known FSB operatives at his asylum acceptance ... suggests this was a textbook intelligence operation, and not a brave plea for asylum from political persecution."

"The Russians are very good at what they do," wrote Foust, referring to their simultaneous control of the "principal" — Snowden — and the public message.

WSJ/NBC Poll: Most Americans View Snowden Negatively - July 24, 2013

In the poll, only 11% of respondents said they viewed Mr. Snowden in a positive light, while 34% said they viewed him negatively. Nearly a third said they didn’t know who he was.

All in all, another impressive triumph for the KGB.

* John Walker so damaged American security by providing the Soviets stolen American cryptographic material that if an actual shooting war with the Soviet Union had occurred, the US Navy may have been defeated at sea. The Soviets would have been able to read their transmissions, know the locations of ships, and their orders. Snowden's damage may be as bad or worse.

Re:We still don't know much of the situation

[Anonymous Coward]

That poll is bullshit. If a third of people don't know who he was, then the number was larger when the propaganda campaign started. All that this poll shows is that most people are ignorant and influenced by propaganda.

And as far as his lawyer, your claims are ridiculous. In his case he needed to hire a lawyer with connections. In Russia than means that he would likely have contacts with the FSB. If he hired someone unconnected, he would be fucked. But that does not mean that Snowden is giving information to the FSB.

All that you are doing is trying to smear Snowden by association, comparison to a spy, and by misleading polls. Your post is nothing but a smear piece. I have to wonder if your fingers felt greasy before clicking 'submit'. Looking through your comment history reads like the posts of a neo-con. You justify the Iraq invasion, you talk about how Afghanistan is better now, you discount the idea of proportionality, and you unequivocally support spying on US citizens. And that is only in the past couple of days. You are a zealot who has no connection to reality, which explains your above post.

Re:We still don't know much of the situation

[Anonymous Coward]

Same old American rhetoric, "look the other guys are just as bad as us!" Well that doesn't make the US look any better.

Same old one-sided biased "journalism" leaving out the truths that blow the rhetoric completely away: Snowden doesn't have much of a choice, he's forced to take asylum in Russia because as soon as he gets into international territory, the Americans will most definitely detain him and whatever mode of transportation he's using.

As far as your poll, well yeah. Most members of the Mafia view an informant negatively too, doesn't make the informant any less of a hero. What do the world-wide polls on Snowden tell you? That would be the real truth.

Re:We still don't know much of the situation

[clarkkent09]

It's not an unfounded speculation. We know he revealed information about US spying on China to the Chinese authorities. In any case, putting himself in Russian custody and begging them for favors (asylum) while in possession of tons of classified information is not a good idea if you actually intend to keep that information secret.

Re:We still don't know much of the situation

[Anonymous Coward]

newer polls are much more positive although broken down by age group a majority of every cohort but the younger ages still thinks he should be prosecuted. still after it became clear that there was far more than phone metadata collection occuring public opinion has shifted more in his favor and probably will continue to when the revelations are tied back to bush administration era attempts to unlawfully expand executive power

Re:We still don't know much of the situation

[Anonymous Coward]

To return your ad hominem attack with another based on your own postings:

"They hate us for our freedom" post
http://entertainment.slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=2867991&cid=40084835
Iraq is better off because we invaded post
http://entertainment.slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=2867991&cid=40084745
The Iraq invasion was worth it post including the quote:

"By historical standards the campaigns in Iraq and Afghanistan have been cheap in terms of American lives lost. For dealing with Saddam and al Qaidas state within a state and training base turning out thousands of trained terrorists per year in Afghanistan, it was worth it."

http://entertainment.slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=3981499&cid=44305701
America's fucking with everyone in the world and starting wars, arming contras, etc., was justified because of communism post
http://it.slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=2725743&cid=39362143
Gitmo prisoners are well treated post
http://news.slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=3749765&cid=43727743
Waterboarding isn't torture post
http://news.slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=3749765&cid=43730807

I found all of this in just a 5 minute search. Holy fuck. I now understand why you don't like Snowden. Your moral alignment is 180 degrees off.

Re:We still don't know much of the situation

[Anonymous Coward]

Ah, platitudes. Almost as tired as the load you traveled into the world on.

Re:We still don't know much of the situation

[oxdas]

Snowden has been planning this for years. Do you think he hadn't though about that possibility? The Guardian reporter was quite clear that Snowden doesn't want the information falling into the wrong hands. To that end, according to the reporter, the information he is carrying is heavily encrypted and he doesn't have the keys. He spread copies of the encrypted data and copies of the keys to trusted associates around the world. If something happens to him, then they can share their keys and reveal the information. While the Russians could break it in time, by then the information will have considerably less value.

Re:We still don't know much of the situation

[Camel Pilot]

It's not an unfounded speculation. We know he revealed information about US spying on China to the Chinese authorities. In any case, putting himself in Russian custody and begging them for favors (asylum) while in possession of tons of classified information is not a good idea if you actually intend to keep that information secret.

Is this true? I haven't been following the case that close but if Snowden did do this then yes he is a traitor.

Re:We still don't know much of the situation

[MushMouth]

Like Manning before him, Snowden was a pretty low level guy (you know a GED), it's unlikely that the Chinese, Russian, Israeli, British, etc, governments don't already have assets at a higher level than either of these guys.

Re:We still don't know much of the situation

[cold fjord]

And as far as his lawyer, your claims are ridiculous. In his case he needed to hire a lawyer with connections. In Russia than means that he would likely have contacts with the FSB. If he hired someone unconnected, he would be fucked.

Snowden claimed he wanted asylum, even if only temporary. Asylum in Russia is under the control of the Russian Federal Migration Service, not the FSB/KGB. So why is he talking to the head of public relations for the FSB/KGB intelligence service? Why is the KGB speaking on his behalf?

The Federal Migration Service

The competence of the FMS includes the implementation of legislation regarding refugees, granting political asylum to foreign citizens and persons without citizenship. (According to Russian law, the forms of protection granted are: refugee status; temporary asylum, and political asylum. Political asylum is granted by a personal Decree of the President of Russia).

--------

But that does not mean that Snowden is giving information to the FSB.

The FSB/KGB has already received information that originated from Snowden, the same as anyone else that reads the newspapers and visits the Guardian web site. That information was Top Secret. Now he is in regular direct contact with the head of public relations for the FSB/KGB when he claims to want asylum that should be going through another government agency. Why? You can't deny that he still has much highly secret information that he hasn't revealed. Glen Greenwald describes it as a "worst nightmare" if it were revealed. Trust the man that has violated so many trusts already? Trust the man that has lied so much?

That poll is bullshit. If a third of people don't know who he was, then the number was larger when the propaganda campaign started. All that this poll shows is that most people are ignorant and influenced by propaganda.

There is more than one poll showing essentially the same thing.

Most think NSA is violating privacy rights but want Snowden charged with a crime
WSJ/NBC Poll: Most Americans View Snowden Negatively
Attitudes Shift Against Snowden; Fewer than Half Say NSA Unjustified

As to the rest of your nonsense.... Snowden chose his actions and picked his associations, not me. It's not my fault he stole an enormous amount of highly damaging top secret information, it is his fault. I didn't force him to work with the head FSB/KGB public affairs instead of the Federal Migration Service to get asylum, he chose that. Not acknowledging that fact is dangerously naïve. My views don't change anything he did. You are just trying to divert from that fact, trying to confuse people.

Your views are far outside the mainstream. You applaud a man that damages American security, for what purpose I can only guess. Your views are from the fringe.

Re:We still don't know much of the situation

[Anonymous Coward]

You are a fucking neo-con and you call my ideas from the fringe? How many wars started, people killed, and rights crushed will it take for your to realize that history has rejected your bullshit?

It is not Snowden's fault that the government created a surveillance program that violated the 4th Amendment. He bravely exposed that. And working at the CIA and NSA, if his goal was to give information to the Russians for asylum, he could have collected far more valuable information on foreign intelligence than domestic spying. He is a whistleblower, not a spy. And as anyone who has taken an official oath in the US knows, all oaths go to the US Constitution first. You claim that he has violated trust and lied, while it is clear that he has upheld a trust that even high levels of our government can't. And unlike them, he has never lied under oath. So screw your broken philosophy where there is no government accountability over spying programs and when somebody points this out they get thrown into an oubliette. And screw all of your other philosophies where you believe the ends justifies the means. The US Constitution was based on principle, not your Machiavellian bullshit.

Re:We still don't know much of the situation

[Anonymous Coward]

Do not be surprised if the poster is also a government spook. There is cognitive dissonance, and then there is treachery towards one's own country in the name of patriotism/towing the party line.

Re:We still don't know much of the situation

[Anonymous Coward]

"Hey India, the US is spying on you"
Am I a traitor to the US for letting India know about US's spying actions in India?

Carousel

[A10Mechanic]

He's just waiting for his luggage to pop out on the carousel

Re:Carousel

[Infiniti2000]

I can't see this word and not think to myself, "Renew! Renew!"

Re:Carousel

[sl4shd0rk]

waiting for his luggage to pop out

How many CIA operatives can fit in a suitcase anyhow?

Re:Carousel

[Anonymous Coward]

CIA operatives wear wigs and navigate airports with a map and a compass.

Re:Carousel

[clarkkent09]

The slight delay is caused by the need to reroute his laptops through a Russian code breaking facility.

Re:Carousel

[cold fjord]

He's just waiting for his luggage to pop out on the carousel

Of course he is. In (post) Soviet Russia, luggage containing secret filled laptops carries you (to asylum).

Re:Carousel

[oxdas]

I wonder how long it would take the Russians to break the NSA's best encryption?

Re:Carousel

[Master Moose]

There is no sanctuary

Re:Carousel

[Anonymous Coward]

I'd say about 8-10 *shovels*.

Excuse me. We have crude humor day here today.

Exclusivity

[Dan East]

This probably means Snowden has agreed to turn over everything he's got to Russia. That way it can be quietly assimilated at a government level and just kind of go away at the public level. That gives Russia secrets they certainly want, and saves face for America publicly.

Re:Exclusivity

[Anonymous Coward]

Wait, hold on. Let me put on my tin foil hat.

Re:Exclusivity

[Anonymous Coward]

Most certainly not.

Russia can't force him to accept and he has made it abundantly clear that he is releasing this information to the US public - not to give it to other Governments (who is stupid enough to trust a Government these days?).

Handing it over to the Russians would be a very stupid thing to do - opening himself up to the kind of charges the US Government would LOVE to throw at him.

Re:Exclusivity

[PraiseBob]

Because causing their greatest geo-political competitor massive embarrasment in front of the whole world isn't enough incentive for Russia to let him stay? What does Russia have to gain by throwing him out? Many of their top allies all support giving Snowden asylum. They get to paint America as the bad guys, and themselves as pro-freedom. Why on earth would they need extra incentives above and beyond that? Any intelligence Snowden could offer has less value than his presence.

Re:Exclusivity

[Baloroth]

This probably means Snowden has agreed to turn over everything he's got to Russia. That way it can be quietly assimilated at a government level and just kind of go away at the public level. That gives Russia secrets they certainly want, and saves face for America publicly.

And make him an actual, valid in every sense of the word, traitor (as opposed to before, where he was a traitor only if you stretch the term a bit, and even then only in a very limited technical sense).

Re:Exclusivity

[runeghost]

Former KGB General Oleg Kalugin, who is an American citizen and critic of Putin, stated in an interview that he doesn't believe that Snowden has much if anything Russian intelligence didn't already know. http://ianmasters.com/content/july-2-julian-assange-now-speaking-edward-snowden-kgb-general-standoff-moscow-could-deadly-n

Re:Exclusivity

[Anonymous Coward]

They get to paint America as the bad guys, and themselves as pro-freedom.

Just because they get to paint America as the bad guys in this doesn't mean that they are pro-freedom.

It's pretty clear that nowadays freedom is an illusion.

Just sayin'.

Re:Exclusivity

[Anonymous Coward]

I would hope he knows he can't turn it all over. As long as he can trickle out bits which can give the U.S. (and other countries) bad international press, he stays alive. As soon as his information is not as powerful, his value will be in his death. Think about it ... no matter how he dies, the U.S. will be blamed. You could have someone run up to him, scream Allah Akbar and detonate a bomb. The conspiracy types will blame U.S. operatives. He could have a blood clot and the U.S. will be blamed for poisoning him. He can simply vanish completely and the U.S. will be blamed for 'disappearing' him.
In fact, the one country he is actually safest from is the U.S., since him staying alive is the best option.

Re:Exclusivity

[Anonymous Coward]

Also it is likely that Mr. Snowden kidnapped two American toddlers and brought them to Russia as a present for Mr. Putin - a compensation for Russian kids adopted by American parents in the past. A well informed source of Fox News, which wishes to remain anonymous, reported that a breathing hole of about half-inch diameter was observed on one piece of Mr. Snowden's luggage.

Re: Exclusivity

[Anonymous Coward]

Or perhaps you're just stupid. The Russians already know enough that what little Snowden knows above that is way less valuable than what ever he does as a free patriotic US citizen.

Unlike Obama and the other idiots, Putin is a longtime player of the game and knows exactly how to profit from it. Though if you're from the US you aren't his intended target of PR campaigning.

Re:Exclusivity

[Anonymous Coward]

Trollolololol Snowden has never once given any indication he's given Russia anything that he hasn't released to the world. You know the Russians are loving every minute of this, they're not going to risk the entertainment for a little intel. Snowden is doing the right thing and you're a pseudo traitor for implying a Patriot like Snowden is giving the Russians secrets. His soul purpose is to reveal how badly our rights are being trampled on by the NSA and the rest of the government. I just hope he eventually gets whistleblower status so that he can return to his family.

Re:Exclusivity

[C0R1D4N]

Of course they aren't pro-freedom, but they get to paint themselves as such, like the US does constantly.

Re:Exclusivity

[LoRdTAW]

Russia is playing a game with the US and is granting Snowden asylum just so they can thumb their collective nose at the US.

"We know you want to arrest Snowden and parade him around as a traitor in front of the press SO badly *BUT* guess what, we will let him stay here just so you can't get him. HAHA bitches!"

Re:Exclusivity

[evilviper]

What does Russia have to gain by throwing him out?

Not DESTROYING their recently repaired relationship with the US? You know, one of their big allies, who gives them truck-loads of cash?

That might be something...

Re:Exclusivity

[Anonymous Coward]

you're assuming he has any information the Russians don't already have.

Re: Exclusivity

[Anonymous Coward]

people are naive. if snowden can walk away with this data easily as one of hundreds of thousands of people who had access to it then the russians likely already know it via espionage. the administration wants to look muscular on punishing leakers but the current system is very leaky by design

Re:Exclusivity

[GodfatherofSoul]

Actually, the Russians are playing it very diplomatically. They already stated he can only stay if he stops with the comments hurting the US. Not everything another country does outside of our interests is "thumbing their nose." They definitely want that next defector with some juicy intel looking their way for an escape route.

Re:Exclusivity

[Anonymous Coward]

Of course they aren't pro-freedom, but they get to paint themselves as such,

Well, freedom for American whistleblowers at least.

Re:Exclusivity

[westlake]

What does Russia have to gain by throwing him out?

Someone just might suffer from the delusion that Putin would tolerate leaks of Russian documents. That males Snowden high maintenance, while his entertainment value --- and political capital ----diminishes with time.

Re:Exclusivity

[Livius]

Russia doesn't even pretend to be pro-freedom. The US paints itself as the bad guy without any help.

It could be as simple as Snowden being a legitimate refugee from political persecution.

Re:Exclusivity

[DarkOx]

From what I have been told by some ex state department folks who were in the Soviet Union during the late eighties the Russians are probably budding up with him and trying to collect drips and drabs about social structures etc.

Their estimate of the situation is as follows. The Chinese almost certainly got copies of anything they wanted, maybe Snowden knows, maybe not, and then got rid of the hot potato. That's how they operate.

The Russians on the other hand already have good intelligence. They know what the NSA is and is not capable of and don't need Snowden to tell them. What they want is to gather soft intel. Who is influential in the organization. Who might share sympathetic views, who might be turned etc. They won't just come out and ask that, stuff either they will try to pick it up conversationally.

Re:Exclusivity

[MushMouth]

which if you look at the fact that Snowden (and PFC Manning) really didn't have all that much with respect to credentials, it makes sense that a world class intelligence agency most likely already has many assets with higher access than an IT guy with a GED.

Re:Exclusivity

[Anonymous Coward]

The reports by the BBC and NPR radio have been talking about the Russians intentionally delaying Snowdens requests for a temp asylum, or to leave the country without being arrested, and sent back to the US, Russian Spy agencies are trying to find a way to gain access to Snowdens computers (obviously using various methods, waiting from him to turn his back, or even interviewing him and checking the contents of the computers for any Russian Secrets) to copy any of the storage devices on his laptops, even it is encrypted it can be cracked. The news agencies are claiming he has far more secretive data over details of how the NSA conducts it operations, while he hasn't exposed the details, and has only gone around already saying what few people and few media outlets have already known/reported for years before Snowden.

The data from this false whistle blower has been talking about is already known to these countries governments, the whole game of spying, they are all watching and know of each others spy games and processes, but everyone acts like they had no clue when it becomes public. Simply all these countries are working with the NSA and all knew of the worldwide surveillance, because of of these countries are in it with the NSA.

I respect your comment, but your under the assumption these countries are trying to "stick it to the US" and it is false. Take a closer look at those countries trying to give asylum to Snowden, most of them have laws and governments that are worse then the US, and in all fairness the US isn't any better then those countries. And these countries can gain major benefits from US agencies if they can convince Snowden to come to there country, in order to be captured and sent back to the US..

The countries Snowden has stayed in, have infighting with the US, and the US will refuse to meet those countries demands for them to capture Snowden and hand him over. And it appears snowden has a group of people and of course his own information and knowledge of which countries to avoid at all costs if he want to remain free from US custody.

He should just go to America and face the music

[jellomizer]

I am sorry.
I gave him points for what he did, but they were loss by how he is just hiding across borders, because he doesn't want to face the consequences for his action.

Good job man on following your morals. However you are dumb ass, for not standing up and realizing your actions have consequences. A real hero would gladly go to jail to prove his point. A politically radicalized scumbag would just run away.

Re:He should just go to America and face the music

[TWiTfan]

What good is disappearing into a hole forever, with no further contact with the world, going to do for his cause? People will just forget about him. At least this way, he and Assange can blog and publicly comment. That's way more than Bradley Manning will ever be able to do again.

Re:He should just go to America and face the music

[Anonymous Coward]

He probably would've stayed in US. However, he saw how US government was torturing Mannings, and he saw how easily US government assassinated their own citizens. I don't blame him at all for escaping. I hope he exposes our corrupt government more once he gets to the safety of Venezuela.

Re:He should just go to America and face the music

[cheesybagel]

Yes because Good is Dumb. Or maybe not.

Re:He should just go to America and face the music

[Anonymous Coward]

The consequences of his actions are not going to be in proportion. You agree that what he did is a good thing, then you really should agree that the most likely consequences of his actions will not be deserved.

He isn't just going to jail, he is going to get royaly fucked when he goes to prison. You aren't talking about a few years of jail here, you are talking about quite possibly being imprisoned forever. What good are you with a hero that is imprisoned? If you agree that his revealing of what the NSA is doing is a good thing, you should stand up for him not getting any bad consequences at all.

How can you rationalize that he did the right thing and in the same breath condem him for not having bad things happen to him for doing the right thing?

Re:He should just go to America and face the music

[Anonymous Coward]

Guantano != jail

Re:He should just go to America and face the music

[Anonymous Coward]

Now that you've explained how you are a greater patriot than him, please give me the great examples of what incredible contributions and sacrifices to mankind that you have done that even remotely compare to his.

I hate to break it to you, but you are not even close to being as great of a person as he is. And as such, you are in no place to judge him. If you did what he did and then faced the consequences, only then would you have the grounds to criticize him.

Re:He should just go to America and face the music

[intermodal]

Every time I hear that argument, I have to laugh. If we had any reason to believe Snowden's constitutional rights would be upheld and he'd be given what he has a right to (a fair, speedy, and public trial) I might agree with you. The problem is, Snowden exposed the government in their violations of the basic rights theoretically protected by our Constitution, and it's not as if the government is acknowledging the other rights therein outlined. That's what is at hand here.

Snowden has been in an airport terminal for several weeks precisely because he is aware that his actions have consequences. Neither you nor the US government gets to micromanage what those consequences are, no matter how much Uncle Sam wants to pretend they do.

Re:He should just go to America and face the music

[datavirtue]

He is facing the consequences. Pure economics. No man should sacrifice his freedom..period. If you are sentenced to or facing jail it is in your best interests to flea if at all possible. Any sane person would do the same.

Re:He should just go to America and face the music

[Dan East]

I'll tell you when I lost respect for him. When I learned he wasn't just some innocent IT guy that happened to see information that he, with good conscience, could not just ignore. That's called whistle blowing, but that's not what happened here.

Snowden stated that he tried to get that position for the specific purpose of digging up whatever he could to use against his country. That's called espionage. That makes him a traitor in my book, regardless of what he ended up finding out.

Re:He should just go to America and face the music

[johnlcallaway]

Ah yes .. Assange. The cowardly self-centered publicity whore. They make a good pair.

Re:He should just go to America and face the music

[datavirtue]

Indeed, he has been awarded the Whitleblower Award in Germany (whatever that is) and at least one person has nominated him for a Peace Prize on top of other notable citizens speaking out in support. He is doing the right thing and his actions have spurred a much needed debate in our country. The longer this goes on the less spin control Washington has and the more they look like the bad guy for trying.

Re:He should just go to America and face the music

[InlawBiker]

He has an opportunity to come home and strike while the iron is hot. There's enough publicity now for him to get the very best legal representation for free. Running away at this point is silly, he needs to finish what he started or it'll all be for nothing.

Re:He should just go to America and face the music

[dkleinsc]

I gave him points for what he did, but they were loss by how he is just hiding across borders, because he doesn't want to face the consequences for his action.

This isn't like Martin Luther King Jr spending a few days in jail in Birmingham. The United States government has made it clear its intentions towards Snowden: They've already caused at least one major diplomatic incident involving violating the rights of a foreign head of state to try to get to him. I have every reason to believe Snowden is on the short list for getting the Anwar Al-Awlaki treatment if he goes to somewhere that the US can get a drone to, and the Bradley Manning treatment if he otherwise ends up in US hands.

I'd be on the run too.

Re:He should just go to America and face the music

[serviscope_minor]

That makes him a traitor in my book, regardless of what he ended up finding out.

So investigative reporters who specifically try to dig up all the bad things they can about their own country are traitors. You have some seriously skewed priorities if you believe that someone trying to expose government malfeasence is the wrongdoer.

Re:He should just go to America and face the music

[TheCarp]

A traitor to whom? The only people he betrayed are the ones who betrayed the people by spying on them. He did nothing but expose traitors.

Re:He should just go to America and face the music

[Anonymous Coward]

Remember the scene from The Matrix: "what good is a telephone call when you have no mouth?" or whatever it was...
Best legal representation will be next to useless in the US, as most of the details they'd need to talk about to prop up his defense will be gagged under "National Security" orders or classifications. His lawyers would be free to blab to the press about next to nothing.

The US is full of people who seem like they're living in a giant dysfunctional family. We're happy to bitch about how lousy our family is, but when specifics are brought to bear by The Government [sic] against one of them, we circle the wagons and defend the family, wanting to shoot the messenger to try and make the message go away.

Re:He should just go to America and face the music

[PraiseBob]

He lost his cushy 6 figure job, and life in Hawaii with his girlfriend and gets to spend his life on the run. Explain to me again how he isn't facing consequences for his actions? Even though you support his actions, you think it's morally appropriate to lock him in a cage forever?

Re:He should just go to America and face the music

[meta-monkey]

To paraphrase George C. Scott paraphrasing George S. Patton, "You don't win wars by dying for your country, you win wars by making the other poor bastard die for his."

Also, have you noticed what's happened to the prison system in the past twenty years? Not that it was a peachy keen hotel before, but, yeah, this ain't like spending 30 days in the county jail with a window, a bunkbed and a harmonica. He'd be in solitary, in conditions the U.N. considers torture, and unable to communicate his message to the rest of the world.

Jail is one thing. Torture is something else entirely.

Re:He should just go to America and face the music

[Anonymous Coward]

I constantly hear this, what exactly do you think the US government will do to him other than try him in Federal court on federal charges. They are not going to ship him to GITMO thats a habeas case a first year law student could win.

Re:He should just go to America and face the music

[vux984]

A real hero would gladly go to jail to prove his point.

What point would that prove exactly?

A politically radicalized scumbag would just run away.

No. The politically radicalized scumbag are the ones who are willing to be martyred to make a point.

Normal people value their lives and their freedom, and aren't willing to throw it away just to make a point to other people who apparently just want to throw them in prison.

Re:He should just go to America and face the music

[Anonymous Coward]

Gitmo is a paradise compared to ADX Florence. The US has an oubliette, and it is designed to break souls. And there is no question at all that this is the prison he would be sent to. It was designed for spies and terrorists. Suicide would be a better option than being sentenced there.

Re:He should just go to America and face the music

[zlives]

Active resistance is better than passive!?

Re:He should just go to America and face the music

[jcr]

What did he do, steal your girlfriend?

-jcr

Re:He should just go to America and face the music

[Anonymous Coward]

He did that because he already was aware of wrong-doing, but he didn't have proof.

Re:He should just go to America and face the music

[jcr]

A real hero would gladly go to jail to prove his point.

Bullshit. He's up against a government that refuses to admit any legal limitations to what it can do, and you say he should just submit? Fuck that.

-jcr

Re:He should just go to America and face the music

[jkflying]

Are you talking about the guy who was charged with rape by a 'witness' who refused to sign the testimony, for which all charges were initially dropped, then reopened once he leaked the US diplomatic cables?

Re:He should just go to America and face the music

[Anonymous Coward]

He lost his cushy 6 figure job, and life in Hawaii with his girlfriend and gets to spend his life on the run. Explain to me again how he isn't facing consequences for his actions?

Easy: he would have had to lose those things if he was found committing some other crime and had to run. Those are general and common consequences, not specific consequences for the specific actions he did.

Even though you support his actions, you think it's morally appropriate to lock him in a cage forever?

I think it's morally appropriate to let a fair and speedy trial determine what appropriate consequences he should face. I want Snowden to be officially declared innocent (or pardoned, should he be found to have broken laws) by law, not by the shouting of angry mobs.

Now, he *might* and *probably* not get a fair and speedy trial if he returned, but he'll *definitely* not get one if he doesn't. I think it is very very sad how Snowden cannot trust his fellow Americans to come to his defense, and had to rely on citizens of other countries (i.e Hong Kong)

I think if you think Snowden shouldn't return, then perhaps you (Americans) should consider joining him. If the USA isn't good enough for Snowden, why would you think it's good enough for you? Get out of there man!

Re:He should just go to America and face the music

[firewrought]

Snowden stated that he tried to get that position for the specific purpose of digging up whatever he could to use against his country... That makes him a traitor in my book.

Pretty sure he dug it up for his country, and against the real traitors (his employers) who are usurping the autonomy of the people of the United States.

At any rate, he undoubtedly sought the Booz Allen gig because he suspected agency wrongdoing based on his prior experiences with the NSA/CIA. I don't think you could ask for a better whistleblower than this: someone willing to get the full story, obtain and screen evidence, and responsibly disclose the matter to public attention (while giving up a $200,000/year Hawaiian lifestyle).

Re:He should just go to America and face the music

[Anonymous Coward]

Whitleblower? Sounds painful, especially the splinters.

Re:He should just go to America and face the music

[digitalchinky]

I'm a former ELINT drone - when I started working for various secret 3 letter agencies I told the psych I wanted to find out if UFO's actually exist, and that I daydream almost constantly - except on work time. I kid you not. (Now it'll be someones job to actually dig through the records and check this :-) I held a TS positive vetted clearance with pretty much every brief that exists within that domain for more than a decade. Some interesting crap goes on in the world for sure, though eventually I quit and moved to Asia. Is there an analogy here? You can pick one if you want, whatever makes you feel good, but I will respectfully say you should dig your head out of the sand and use some logic - what's the difference between whistle blowing with a good conscience about something illegal and whistle blowing with the moral guidance unit turned off? I don't see one myself. Illegal is still illegal if that's what your constitution and laws say.

I have no idea what my point is though. Just thought I'd share that.

Re:He should just go to America and face the music

[Hatta]

he doesn't want to face the consequences for his action.

When Obama faces consequences for his actions, this argument will have some merit.

Re:He should just go to America and face the music

[Anonymous Coward]

Why flea when you could tick?

Re:He should just go to America and face the music

[ethanms]

Ghandi, Mother Theresa, etc...

You die for your principals--

As in I love this country (USA) so much, and believe what has been done is so bad, that I am willing to leak this information to world, but of course I will keep the true secrets out of anyone's hands that could harm the US and it's citizens.

I think that is the OP's point and I don't think it's "Flamebait" at all.

Re:He should just go to America and face the music

[Anonymous Coward]

When Obama faces consequences for his actions, this argument will have some merit.

Other way around, when the American people finally deal Obama some consequences, then your argument would have merit, and the people can complain about Snowden having to face consequences

You (American people, collectively, doesn't matter if you didn't vote for him) don't get to let government run loose and do whatever it wants, and then suddenly want the government to listen to you when it decides to go after some guy that you actually like.

Re:He should just go to America and face the music

[TWiTfan]

You die for your principals

As the great General Patton once said, you don't win by dying for your principles.

Re:He should just go to America and face the music

[Anonymous Coward]

I am sure someone asked just that early on about Manning. I am sure Manning asked himself of that early on too. Seriously, what are you an idiot? Where have you been?

Re:He should just go to America and face the music

[Anonymous Coward]

Another arm-chair hero telling everyone how "real" heroes are supposed to operate. Blow it out your ass and go back to telling your beer buddies how football coaches should be managing their plays.

Re:He should just go to America and face the music

[Anonymous Coward]

Like those swedish ladies he probably cornholed the guy and didn't call the next day so now he's mad an attempting internet justice.

Re:He should just go to America and face the music

[fahrbot-bot]

What good is disappearing into a hole forever, with no further contact with the world, going to do for his cause?

His "cause?" As one comedian put it, he's probably just trying to get out of his engagement to his girlfriend. "No honey, I really *do* want to get married, I just have to lay low until this whole 'stolen security secrets' thing blows over..."

Re:He should just go to America and face the music

[Hatta]

And how exactly am I supposed to put Obama in jail?

And what makes you think there's any "suddenly" about it? Every president who authorizes unconstitutional behavior deserves to go to jail. That has always been my position, will always be my position, and is the position of any decent human being.

Re:He should just go to America and face the music

[tendrousbeastie]

Manning was a member of the armed forces, and so subject to a ifferent judicial process. This is no secret.

Re:He should just go to America and face the music

[intermodal]

I think it's morally appropriate to let a fair and speedy trial determine what appropriate consequences he should face.

don't forget public. Public trials are also constitutionally guaranteed, regardless of what FISA may want you to believe.

Re:He should just go to America and face the music

[Anonymous Coward]

And how exactly am I supposed to put Obama in jail?

Why are you asking me? I'm assuming you're part of the American people. It's part of your job to to figure it out. Do you want another country to invade and dispose Obama (like how the US likes to do in the name of spreading freedom and democracy?)

And what makes you think there's any "suddenly" about it?

The fact all those presidents got elected and their policies allowed to pass through? The fact many of those presidents (still) have supporters who defend their actions?

Every president who authorizes unconstitutional behavior deserves to go to jail. That has always been my position, will always be my position, and is the position of any decent human being.

That's nice, but that doesn't change how collectively the American people has let this happen.

It's a Republic, if you can keep it. Keeping a Republic involves more than just flailing your position and patting yourself on the back for being a "decent human being"

Re:He should just go to America and face the music

[Anonymous Coward]

Yep, fuck that martyr shit. He who fights and runs away lives to fight again another day. What has The Game of Thones taught us about being overly self righteous and becoming a martyr? You just end up with your head cut off, or in Snowdens case 50 years in federal pound me in the ass prison.

Re:He should just go to America and face the music

[spire3661]

Its espionage to expose crime to the citizenry? In what universe? Every US citizen has a moral duty to expose crime where they see it, its part of being a citizen. The NSA is engaged in absolute criminal behavior, and you are worried about Snowden's motivations??? It doesnt matter WHY he did it, the point is the NSA is acting unbounded and needs to be checked. There should be nothing illegal about exposing this type of deep corruption.

Re:He should just go to America and face the music

[kaatochacha]

Jesus did.
Of course, he came back shortly thereafter.

Re:He should just go to America and face the music

[intermodal]

And therein lies the problem for the government. Notice how their focus in argument has been on their phone record collection, trying to distract people with that ridiculous "it's only metadata" argument?

Re:He should just go to America and face the music

[spire3661]

What part of 'WE DONT TRUST THE GOVERNMENT TO CONDUCT A FAIR TRIAL' do you not get. They have PROVEN they are quite happy to ignore the law, torture people and hold them for very long periods of time without trial or representation. Your suggestion is like letting a rape victim be judged by the rapist.

Re:He should just go to America and face the music

[Anonymous Coward]

Yep, that's the one.

Re:He should just go to America and face the music

[evilviper]

The United States government has made it clear its intentions towards Snowden: They've already caused at least one major diplomatic incident involving violating the rights of a foreign head of state to try to get to him.

Please offer ANY evidence the US had ANY involvement in that incident.

I have every reason to believe Snowden is on the short list for getting the Anwar Al-Awlaki treatment if he goes to somewhere that the US can get a drone to,

Tin-foil hat on too tight? Al-awlaki was promoting terrorism, and associated with Al Qaeda. Snowden isn't suspected of anything remotely as serious. It's pure baseless paranoia.

and the Bradley Manning treatment if he otherwise ends up in US hands.

When you sign-up for the Military, you sign over your habeas corpus and lots of other rights. Snowden was never in the military, so it can't get that kind of treatment. He'll be held in a federal prison, by federal guards, and under the authority of federal judges. There is zero similarity to Bradly Manning's situation.

Re:He should just go to America and face the music

[Anonymous Coward]

To paraphrase George C. Scott paraphrasing George S. Patton, "You don't win wars by dying for your country, you win wars by making the other poor bastard die for his."

Bro, are you saying Mr Snowden is fighting America? I mean, that's that "other" country he's fighting against.

So when Patton suggest he "makes the other poor bastard die for his [country]", that means he's suggesting Mr Snowden to kill Americans (hmmm that sounds awful like what Snowden haters say: "he's giving up secrets that would endanger American forces! I support our troops!")

I'm sorry, but Patton's quote has nothing to do with this situation. If anything, his quote would justify the US government to call in the assassins (cuz to the US gov, Mr Snowden is that "other poor bardard")

Re:He should just go to America and face the music

[Anonymous Coward]

there are good reasons why there should be simple rules against leaking classified data however the public interest is served by whistleblowers regardless. what the obama and bush administration before them have been doing is using a veil of secrecy to prevent any questioning of behavior that is likely unconstitutional and covering their asses with legal briefs that employ questionable interpretations of law and more recently secret courts that are little more than self legislating the will of the executive and whoever they have influence over or are influenced by in government

Re:He should just go to America and face the music

[Nixoloco]

Jesus did. Of course, he came back shortly thereafter.

Yeah, but nobody has seen him since.

Re:He should just go to America and face the music

[meta-monkey]

No, I mean "bravely" sacrificing your freedom is stupid.

Perhaps I should say, "You don't bring rule of law by going to jail for your government, you bring rule of law by making the rich and powerful bastards go to jail for their country."

Re:He should just go to America and face the music

[Nixoloco]

A traitor to whom? The only people he betrayed are the ones who betrayed the people by spying on them. He did nothing but expose traitors.

Maybe I'm missing something, but where did he reveal anything illegal going on? Everything was authorized by the Patriot Act (section 215 and others) and FISA. And really, what is so shocking about the agencies using the powers that Congress explicitly gave them? Traitors? Seems harsh, but if you are going to throw that around, maybe toss it towards the congresscritters that created those laws and the administrations that keep signing off on it.

Re:He should just go to America and face the music

[bheading]

Strictly speaking - if you are referring to Assange, the charges were not "reopened". He is wanted in Sweden for questioning - perhaps because the alleged victim changed her testimony - but he has not been charged.

Re:He should just go to America and face the music

[TheCarp]

I do, but, I never believed in that sort of buck passing. When someone authorizes it, that doesn't make him responsible and the minion carrying it out not responsible, it makes them BOTH responsible.

Re:He should just go to America and face the music

[chihowa]

Mother Theresa didn't die for her principles. She got old and sick and received better treatment than she ever delivered to the patients under her care. If anything, she compromised her principles in the end by seeking so much expensive treatment to ease her suffering and prolong her life.

Gandhi did die for his principles, but it made sense for him to do so because he was the leader of a movement. The movement that he built outlived him and he continued to give it power after death as a martyr. The same can be said for Martin Luther King, Jr. Their deaths cemented the will of their followers.

Snowden isn't the leader of a movement. He doesn't have throngs of followers that are following his guidance. He is a whistle blower, a messenger. His death won't make him a martyr and cement any particular movement, because there is no movement. It makes more sense for him to remain alive and continue the discussion at this point, even if the US government does paint him as an Emmanuel Goldstein of sorts.

Re:He should just go to America and face the music

[Anonymous Coward]

First, I disagree with The Patriot Act, The War Powers Act, the FISA, ect. However, the Constitution dictates that Congress makes the laws, and the President signs them. If the Judiciary doesn't find them inviolation of the Constitution when the law is tested, then it is valid. This is how the Constitution is written. Granted there are Amendments that ride at the end that are quite important. Snowden took an oath, yet he opposed the will of the People to have this horrible series of laws. You can talk all day about how horrible the intelligence community is, but remember this. They are doing the bidding of the People, as they are directed to by Law. If you don't like what they are doing, you lobby the Legislature to change the Law, you don't spill state secrets. Now let's quite patting him on the back and saying how great he is for violating the trust given to him, and work on changing the laws we knew were bad when they were passed. I, , do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; that I take this obligation freely, without any mental reservation or purpose of evasion; and that I will well and faithfully discharge the duties of the office on which I am about to enter. So help me God.

Re:He should just go to America and face the music

[ChromeAeonium]

Congratulations! You're part of the problem.

Re:He should just go to America and face the music

[jkflying]

No, they weren't reopened. They were, however, assigned to a prosecutor and an extradition was filed to bring him into the country for 'questioning' (like they can't send someone to question him where he is now).

Also, I might add, this happened (prosecutor assigned) 2 days after he leaked the US diplomatic cables, after having lain discarded for months. Odd how the timing of these things works out, isn't it?

Re:He should just go to America and face the music

[oxdas]

How about Jose Padilla? He spent nearly five years in a military prison without being charged with a crime, just because the President labeled him an "enemy combatant."

Re:He should just go to America and face the music

[oxdas]

He is doing a very good job of upholding his oath. It appears to me like he is defending "the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic," just as he swore to do.

Re:He should just go to America and face the music

[Anonymous Coward]

That makes him a traitor in my book, regardless of what he ended up finding out.

That's OK, that fact you just stated you despise and have no respect what so ever for the united states constitution and bill of rights, pretty much makes you a traitor not only to our country but to all of humanity.

People like you are dangerous. If we didn't have laws to respect, the very laws you are so happy to see thrown out completely, what is to stop anyone from murdering anyone else? Including you?

I only hope someone who has an equal lack of respect for any laws and human rights meets up with you and ends your dangerous traitorous life first, before you do the same to us.

Re:He should just go to America and face the music

[Anonymous Coward]

Everything was authorized by the Patriot Act (section 215 and others)

 
The ACLU is suing the NSA, in part, on the grounds that the government's actions do not comply with the Patriot Act:

 

the executive branch's use of Section 215 violates the plain language of the statute itself. The statute requires that records seized under its authority be "relevant" to an authorized foreign-intelligence or terrorism investigation. But while that language imposes a real limitation on when the government can use Section 215, the FISC order covering all VBNS customers demonstrates that this "relevance" restraint is shockingly inadequate. Similarly, the FISC order shows that the government—with the FISC's secret approval—is acquiring future records of telephone subscribers based on the same "relevance" requirement, even though the statute uses words that clearly show it was only meant to cover "tangible things" already in existence.

 
What investigation is the data collection relevant to? The government admits they are collecting the data to search through it in the hopes of finding something to investigate.

Regardless, the constitution is the supreme law of the land. Any law or action that violates the constitution is itself illegal. The government's actions clearly violate the fourth amendment.

Re:He should just go to America and face the music

[Anonymous Coward]

No, just as killing someone as a soldier in a war zone is different than shooting your girlfriend in your apartment, investigative journalists are not like Snowden. Snowden signed a contract that stated that he would face jail time and/or six-figure fines if he made unauthorized release of classified information that he was being very generously overpaid to protect. Journalists and others are doing their professional job. Comparing them to Snowden would only be accurate if you were discussing investigative journalists burying their finds instead of publishing them: i.e. the opposite of the purpose of their profession.

He _is_ a traitor according to the idea of what a traitor is. If he really didn't believe in it, he was perfectly free to walk away into obscurity without selling out for fame, as many before him have done, and then become an anti-government crusader/blogger/drunken bum in Phuket/whatever.

Re:He should just go to America and face the music

[cheesybagel]

By mere coincidence the countries which denied the landing were all NATO countries. Austria, where he did land, does not belong to NATO.

Re:He should just go to America and face the music

[evilviper]

By mere coincidence the countries which denied the landing were all NATO countries. Austria, where he did land, does not belong to NATO.

Most countries in Western Europe are NATO countries, so that's just the odds.

In addition, I believe the only country that admitted to denying flyover was Portugal, while the other two have contradicted the claim.

Re:He should just go to America and face the music

[vux984]

Al-awlaki was promoting terrorism, and associated with Al Qaeda

So if, hypothetically the government pronounces "evilviper" a terrorist associated with Al Qaeda, you'd be ok dodging drone strikes for the rest of your probably short life?

See, the problem with Al-awlaki is fundamentally that there was no trial. No defense. You and Obama even I might all be pretty convinced of his doubt, but that's beside the point. I don't care if the police catch a guy committing a crime red handed having witnessed the criminal act from start to finish. You don't skip due process and jump straight over to sentencing without a trial.

Snowden was never in the military, so it can't get that kind of treatment.

Sorry, you don't get to tell us to put our faith in the integrity of a system that's just been exposed demonstrating it has no integrity.

Assange, Snowden, whether we approve of what they did or not, they are right to attempt to refuse to be subject to a trial in America. America by its actions now lacks the credibility that it would conduct a fair trial for these people, and there is no moral reason any one should willingly participate in an unfair trial.

Re:He should just go to America and face the music

[vux984]

erm "convinced of his doubt" --> convinced of his guilt.

Re:He should just go to America and face the music

[evilviper]

I'm not defending any of the US' actions. I'm just pointing out that Snowden isn't Al-awlaki, nor Manning, and it's pure paranoid psychotic ramblings to claim he'd be treated like either one.

Re:He should just go to America and face the music

[Anonymous Coward]

I hope he exposes our corrupt government more once he gets to the safety of Venezuela.

lolz!!!

Re:He should just go to America and face the music

[Anonymous Coward]

You die for your principals

As the great General Patton once said, you don't win by dying for your principles.

You forgot the second part of that quote: "You win by getting the other son-of-a-bitch to die for his", or something to to that effect.

Re:He should just go to America and face the music

[Anonymous Coward]

I've seen this comment repeated often through the weeks of /. reporting, and it's not technically accurate.

Cleared contractors, such as Snowden, take no such oath. They aren't working for the government, either as a civil servant or as a uniformed service member. While many contractors do indeed take the mission as far more than a simple contractual obligation, they are only truly beholden to their company, not to the government. And companies are under *no* obligation to preserve the constitution. (I'll come back to this shortly.)

They do, however, sign a non-disclosure agreement and agree to accept a lifelong agreement to protect classified information and to submit any writings for pre-publication review. (It doesn't take much Googling to find US DoD clearance training presentations from multiple companies out there explaining all this.) Protecting classified information from unauthorized disclosure is the only real legal obligation they have, and Snowden.... well, he didn't quite check that box. People continue to debate whether he broke the law - I fail to see how that is debatable - while the real discussion is whether the circumstances *warranted* breaking the law as a whistleblower.

I have three problems with the whistleblower defense. First and foremost, the information that Snowden has revealed to date far exceeds the scope of the questioned activity. He has revealed classified information related to legitimate, authorized intelligence and information assurance activities. Secondly, there are officially sanctioned programs and processes by which cleared individuals can "whistleblow" on believed malfeasance. While some may argue that this may be the fox guarding the henhouse and that using a government process to identify wrong-doing is a pointless activity, there's no evidence, nor even a claim, that he attempted to do so and failed. Thirdly, his actions were based on the malfeasance of a particular program. To be whistleblowing, there has to be actual wrongdoing, either a breach of law, executive order, or policy; or, as noted above, the constitution.

Which then brings us to the real sticking point in all of this. As has been pointed out by several times, the programs are authorized by law, and I haven't seen much debate on that. "Unconstitutional" is the usual rallying cry. But constitutionality is a very complex topic, and can't be bandied about as loosely as it is on /. The actual determination of constitutionality can only be done by one branch of the government, which probably doesn't consist of too many ACs on /. While the vocal masses can label whatever they want "unconstitutional", it's not a legal ruling - just an expression of disagreement. So what *does* the judiciary have to say? Well, about constitutional questions in general, that it's very muddy waters. Most issues that are clearly non-constitutional never get passed into law in the first place. The questions - the murky grey areas - that hit the court system for a constitutional ruling, are *rarely* unanimous. So even among those whose responsibility it is to make such determination, it *still* isn't clear. If fact, while most people point to Weeks v US (1914) as the ruling upholding privacy, Smith v. Maryland (1979) is a more applicable case, which, while split, reaffirmed this (highly basic and overgeneralized premise): companies are under no obligation to preserve the constitution. They can collect whatever they can get on you, and undoubtedly have more of your private information than the government does. If *you* voluntarily give them that information, you more or less lose your right of privacy, which means it's now fair game to the government. Again, overgeneralized, and again, another split decision - so at least *someone* on the Supreme Court thought it unconstitutional - but majority rules.

Is it walking a fine line? Absolutely. One of the most insightful comments I've seen in the debate so far was an acknowledgment tha

Re:He should just go to America and face the music

[Anonymous Coward]

Ahh the naivete of youth. One day you will learn what the world is really like buddy. Your dad probably doesn't want you posting on his /. account though, you'll make him look stupid.

Re:He should just go to America and face the music

[Anonymous Coward]

Unfortunately, rich and powerful bastards own the prisons. The only recourse is likely to eliminate them entirely.

Re:He should just go to America and face the music

[cheekyjohnson]

A real hero would gladly go to jail to prove his point.

Why? There's literally no point. Your version of a "real hero" just sounds like an imbecile.

Re:He should just go to America and face the music

[cheekyjohnson]

If he really didn't believe in it, he was perfectly free to walk away into obscurity without selling out for fame

I'm glad he didn't.

Re:He should just go to America and face the music

[Anonymous Coward]

Are you kidding? People still talk and *fight wars* over him, 2000 years later! Even though except from obsessive-compulsive make-believe "research" he never actually existed!

Try reproducing THAT!

Re:He should just go to America and face the music

[vux984]

I'm just pointing out that Snowden isn't Al-awlaki, nor Manning

While that's tautologically true, in the eyes of the law they are equal... or should be, until proven otherwise.

and it's pure paranoid psychotic ramblings to claim he'd be treated like either one.

Right. I'm sure they'd find some new way to be miserable douchebags to Snowden. That seems to be the trend so far.

Re:He should just go to America and face the music

[Anonymous Coward]

"Snowden stated that he tried to get that position _for the specific purpose of digging up whatever he could to use against his country_."
Show him saying that or fuck off.

Re:He should just go to America and face the music

[TheCarp]

Ammendment IV of the constitution:
"Every subject has a right to be secure from all unreasonable searches, and seizures of his person, his houses, his papers, and all his possessions."

Blanket storage of metadata easily falls under this by any honest interpretation of its meaning. Therefore cannot be authorized by anything, not even an act of congress. These people have betrayed us, along with everyone who follows their illegal commands.

Re:He should just go to America and face the music

[Nixoloco]

Ammendment IV of the constitution: "Every subject has a right to be secure from all unreasonable searches, and seizures of his person, his houses, his papers, and all his possessions."

Blanket storage of metadata easily falls under this by any honest interpretation of its meaning. Therefore cannot be authorized by anything, not even an act of congress. These people have betrayed us, along with everyone who follows their illegal commands.

Then it should be challenged in court (the Patriot Act). Another commenter posted that the ACLU is challenging the NSA over its interpretation of the Patriot Act, but no one is challenging the activity on constitutional grounds (largely because of a 1989 Supreme Court "finding that a minimal intrusion on privacy was justified by the government’s need to combat an overriding public danger.")
http://www.nytimes.com/2013/07/07/us/in-secret-court-vastly-broadens-powers-of-nsa.html?_r=0&adxnnl=1&pagewanted=all&adxnnlx=1374778966-Bwk6gp9wV17MNPc2hI6YXg
Devils advocate for the NSA: Actually, this is from Gen. Alexander of the NSA directly when he spoke at an AFCEA conference I was attending: They are only collecting the data. In order to access or search it, they require a FISA court approval. (but which they almost always get)

Re:He should just go to America and face the music

[Nixoloco]

What investigation is the data collection relevant to? The government admits they are collecting the data to search through it in the hopes of finding something to investigate.

Regardless, the constitution is the supreme law of the land. Any law or action that violates the constitution is itself illegal. The government's actions clearly violate the fourth amendment.

I hope the ACLU suit succeeds or that Congress decides to fine tune the law (lol). But from the NSA's perspective, (or so I've heard from a talk by Gen. Alexander) they believe they are authorized to collect the data, but they "have a system in place" to protect access to the data. They require some sort of FISA court approval to actually search and use the data (which as I understand, the FISA court is basically a rubber stamp). He also referenced a specific number of times it had been accessed and how many terrorist events it provided information on (51 or so I think, don't remember the other numbers).
The fourth amendment isn't even being considered seriously because in 1989 the Supreme Court already ruled that a minimal invasion of privacy was justified in the government's need to combat an overriding public danger (the case was about drug testing of railway workers), but it has been interpreted, well.. broadly. The FISA judges have ruled that the NSA's collection and examination of communications data to track potential terrorists doesn't run afoul of the fourth amendment.
I don't see a clear path would put this in front of the Supreme Court to challenge it on constitutional grounds. Nobody can claim they have standing unless they know their information was accessed and no one knows that because the info is classified. catch-22 of sorts.

Re:He should just go to America and face the music

[TheCarp]

Yes and I am well aware of why the courts will not rule this way at all. Simple fact is, 250+ years has been more than enough time to find technical trick after technical trick to violate the spirit of the constitution without actually violating it. The entire foundation of this government has been entirely subverted and has long since ceased to sit upon any legitimate foundation, as it has already undermined that foundation.

Re:He should just go to America and face the music

[cheesybagel]

You need to read more. The French President said he granted Morales permission but it was only after the facts became public. They apologized for the 'delay' in granting permission. As for the Spanish they said they had granted permission to land after he had landed in Austria and mentioned they had 'concerns' that Snowden could be on board.

Bah ...

[gstoddart]

Once he's out, I'm sure the CIA or someone will send in a team to black bag him in the middle of the night.

It's not like they've never done that before.

Re:Bah ...

[EvilSS]

Or the Russians will kill him and blame the CIA. They score a black eye against the US (who would NOT believe the CIA did it) and they avoid any consequences for harboring him. Win-win! Well, unless you're Snowden.

What happened to the real freedom fighters?

[dugancent]

The ones that were willing to sit in jail for years or die for what the believe in?

Re:What happened to the real freedom fighters?

[Shajenko42]

They're in jail or dead.

Re:What happened to the real freedom fighters?

[Anonymous Coward]

Like Mandela? Oh wait..

Re:What happened to the real freedom fighters?

[zlives]

they were preemptively "liberated" because jailing them just made them into heroes.

Re:What happened to the real freedom fighters?

[Anonymous Coward]

Bradley Manning's treatment got to them. Going to jail for your beliefs is one thing. Spending a year in solitary confinement with guards refusing to let you sleep for *months* and making you strip naked at random times...before you're even *charged*, is quite another. Indepenent of Manning's guilt/innocence, his treatement before his trial was shameful.

Re:What happened to the real freedom fighters?

[Anonymous Coward]

They were never heard from again.

Re:What happened to the real freedom fighters?

[Anonymous Coward]

They are in solitary and are forced to sleep naked, last time I checked. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bradley_Manning

Re:What happened to the real freedom fighters?

[Anonymous Coward]

“The object of war is not to die for your country but to make the other guy die for his.”

- George S. Patton Jr.

Maybe Snowden isn't done yet?

Re:What happened to the real freedom fighters?

[Anonymous Coward]

Confirmation bias. 99% of freedom fighters are executed, disappeared, jailed until death, or are 'reformed'. Just because Mandela survived does not mean that Snowden will not be tortured or thrown into an oubliette forever.

Re:What happened to the real freedom fighters?

[Anonymous Coward]

And don't forget how Mandela wound up in prison to begin with, the CIA basically sold him out.

Re:What happened to the real freedom fighters?

[jcr]

Indepenent of Manning's guilt/innocence, his treatement before his trial was shameful.

Not just shameful, it was criminal. Cruel and unusual punishments are prohibited by the constitution.

-jcr

Re:What happened to the real freedom fighters?

[Anonymous Coward]

This is the utopian Age of the Internet(tm)(r)(c)(#ageoftheinternet). Someone willing to do something more than sitting on their ass and retweeting someone else is considered an impossible messiah. What more could you possibly expect from this generation? Snowden's already considered a martyr because he's been inconvenienced by his own actions, he doesn't need to go to jail or face any further consequences. What sort of barbaric culture do you come from where you feel he needs to suffer any MORE?

Re:What happened to the real freedom fighters?

[Anonymous Coward]

Constitution? What's that?

Don't worry, Obama pres'dint now.

Re:What happened to the real freedom fighters?

[Kingofearth]

I don't understand this mentality. I would say that him releasing the information he did means that he is willing to go to jail or be killed for what he believes in. If he wasn't willing to have that be an option, then he would have kept the info to himself.

Soldiers are, in theory, willing to die for their country. That certainly doesn't mean they purposely go run into the line of fire, and anyone who would suggest that a soldier need to do so in order to prove they're "willing to die for their country" would be ridiculed.

Being willing to suffer the extreme consequences of your actions in no way precludes attempting to avoid those consequences. Unless your cause has something significant to gain by making yourself a martyr, odds are you're of more use alive and free.

Also, would you rather people not expose crime, corruption, and abuse of power if they aren't willing to go full martyr right after their "one-hit-wonder"? If you had the info Snowden did, you probably wouldn't even be brave enough to release it to the public, much less hand yourself right over to the government whose corruption your just exposed.

Re:What happened to the real freedom fighters?

[Anonymous Coward]

His name is Bradley Manning.

Re:What happened to the real freedom fighters?

[RoknrolZombie]

If you had the info Snowden did, you probably wouldn't even be brave enough to release it to the public, much less hand yourself right over to the government whose corruption your just exposed.

A thousand times this ^ . When you deal with the NSA the first thing they do is let you know that they'll be climbing up inside your ass before you get your clearance, and that they will continue to monitor and track you for the rest of your life "just in case" you decide to do what Snowden did.

If your ethics dictate that you'll keep an immoral secret, you have no ethics. Snowden should be lauded, not lampooned.

Re:What happened to the real freedom fighters?

[cold fjord]

Spending a year in solitary confinement with guards refusing to let you sleep for *months* and making you strip naked at random times...before you're even *charged*,

Manning probably regrets making a gratuitous suicide threat, don't you think?

" Manning told a guard that if he wanted to kill himself, he could hang himself with the waistband of his underwear." -- more

Re:What happened to the real freedom fighters?

[Anonymous Coward]

"Cruel and unusual punishments are prohibited by the constitution"

So all they have to do is to treat lots of people this way. Then it will no longer be "unusual". Just common, every day stuff.

Sounds like a "win-win" for sure.

Re:What happened to the real freedom fighters?

[Anonymous Coward]

And how does this explain how the prison didn't do what every prison does in these cases: give a suicide vest (felt that can't be ripped) and then get a psychologist. Keeping a prisoner in a cell nude and waking them constantly for suicide checks is psychological torture and no prison in the country would get away with it. And how do you know it was 'gratuitous'? Fuckers like you are the problem. When someone claims to be suicidal you always assume they are faking--until they kill themselves. Then you call them selfish. I hope you have a heart attack or a stroke and someone thinks you are faking it.

I can understand how you would pooh-pooh Manning being tortured. As a supporter of waterboarding, it would be hard to find something that you consider torture or abuse.

Traitor or Agent

[Anonymous Coward]

Traitor: I had no problem with Snowden reporting on what the US is doing with their own citizens but the moment the information he released reported on US activities on other foreign entities was crossing a line; He went from whistle blower to traitor.

US Agent: This whole thing could be an elaborate show by the US government to get Snowden into China and Russia as an agent. Sometimes the best way to get information is to do it out in the open.

Amazing how he became the narrative..

[ducomputergeek]

He is the story now. What the governement is doing in terms of spying on its own people is now largely forgotten in the news cycles.

Re:Amazing how he became the narrative..

[Lunix Nutcase]

That's because you falsely presume that the majority of people are against what the government is doing. Most of the people rationalize it as okay and then condemn Snowden as a traitor. You need to get out of your nerd bubble to see this, though.

Re:Amazing how he became the narrative..

[Anonymous Coward]

If you believe the mainstream media is the only news in town - certainly.

However that's an opinion that only the mainstream media holds... and they're certainly trying to convince people that's the case. Delusions of grandeur ;)

Re:Amazing how he became the narrative..

[Lunix Nutcase]

Oh really?

Top Civil Rights Groups Join Challenge to NSA Spying

New York, NY Today, the NAACP and five other leading civil rights organizations joined the growing challenge to the Administrations illegal National Security Agency spying program.

Due you want your crow hot or cold?

Re:Amazing how he became the narrative..

[Lunix Nutcase]

And even something more recent and Snowden specific:

Local NAACP leaders rally around Snowden.

Re:Amazing how he became the narrative..

[Lunix Nutcase]

LOL I'm dumb. Wrong Snowden. Mod me down please.

Re:Amazing how he became the narrative..

[Anonymous Coward]

It is interesting how that works. It is probably because the government persecution is more newsworthy. It is in line with everything that is wrong with this country. The whole idea of extradition is messed up. We shouldn't be setting up extradition agreements in the first place or making it easy to extradite for that matter.

Re:Amazing how he became the narrative..

[Anonymous Coward]

You deserve to be an american.

Re:Amazing how he became the narrative..

[Anonymous Coward]

Oh bullshit.

The only people I've heard to claim he is a traitor are people on here and a very few talking heads on TV. Out and about talking to people, no one I've talked with thinks of him as a traitor.

Thats ~why~ there are now senate investigations - its not going away no matter how much the govt and media try to get it to go away.

So many of you fucking idiots think the media drives peoples behavior - when mostly its the other way around.

Because of course the only enlightened people in the US are bunch of spoiled, dumb fucking college kids who cant even pay their own tuition and who live in fucking dorms.

Re:Amazing how he became the narrative..

[mockchoi]

2006?

Re:Amazing how he became the narrative..

[RoknrolZombie]

its not going away no matter how much the govt and media try to get it to go away.

History tells us you're wrong. The US Government wants nothing more than for people to forget this so that they can continue raping the American public. They have had very good success with manipulating our short attention spans by getting involved in other shit that they have no business getting involved with.

Re:Amazing how he became the narrative..

[crossmr]

I think once you're done with it, he'll just see if there is any left.

USA = Terrorists

[Anonymous Coward]

m'kay

Re:USA = Terrorists

[Anonymous Coward]

US recently announced that they will be arming the self-proclaimed terrorists in Syria.

So I guess you're kinda right!

No.

[Anonymous Coward]

Snowden and Assange are going to be in a new reality show produced in Russia

He should stand for President

[Anonymous Coward]

He should stand for President.

Actions should have consequences, the constitution IS the law of the USA, not General Alexanders "collect it all" and it's time to free Americans from that Prison Alexander has built. That needs someone with guts and Snowden will uphold the constitution.

"A real hero would gladly go to jail to prove his point."
Go back to Stasi HQ.

What Happens When We Actually Catch Snowden?

[auric_dude]

What Happens When We Actually Catch Edward Snowden? http://www.lawfareblog.com/2013/07/what-happens-when-we-actually-catch-edward-snowden/

Re:Too bad ....

[Rude Turnip]

The government astroturfers are out in full force today.

I see what happens now...

[sageres]

Snowden probably does not know yet, but Russians are very much interested in American government secrets. He just might find himself on a fourth floor of Lyubyanka, in a padded room without windows (Lyubyanka is former KGB headquaters, now FSB, did not have a basement jail).

Re:I see what happens now...

[Anonymous Coward]

With 1.4 million people that have "top secret" security clearance .... you don't think a few of those aren't Russian and/or Chinese spies?

I don't think it's any stretch of the imagination to assume that Russia already knows everything Snowden does.

Re:I see what happens now...

[oxdas]

What would the Russians hope to achieve with that? He probably didn't memorize much and all the data he has is heavily encrypted and he doesn't have, nor know, the keys. I doubt torturing him is really worth their time and the spectacle is far more valuable.

Re:Too bad ....

[jcr]

he should be stuck in a US prison,

For what?

He informed us of billions of counts of illegal wiretapping. Whistleblowing isn't a crime.

-jcr

You're in the wrong job

[Anonymous Coward]

Oh man, you missed your calling.

With your excellence at value judgements, you would have been perfect as a guard at the gas chambers in Nazi Germany.

Where's Snoden

[Petron]

He should wear a red & white striped shirt and hat on the next interview.

Re:Too bad ....

[Anonymous Coward]

I rarely read replies, so don't assume you won your argument just because I don't respond....

I rarely respond, so don't assume your argument wasn't stupid just because I didn't take the time to deconstruct it.

Almost like Tom Hank's movie "The Tourist"

[Anonymous Coward]

I wonder if Edward Snowden is going through what Tom Hank's character like in the movie "The Tourist" being trapped in the airport with no place to go.

This is Russia

[Anonymous Coward]

This is Russia. Minor details are overlooked on a regular basis. Bureaucracy is circumvented when it is politically convenient.

Snowden is a thorn for the US. His asylum is being held up due to negotiations with the US behind closed doors. The Russians are just trying to see how much they can extract from the US in exchange for him; they don't give two shits for him. He's not a huge card to play in the major issues between Russia and the US like Ballistic Missile Defense or support for Iran or Syria's military, but don't think Putin and his people won't use any card they can to get as much as they can from the US.

If Snowden isn't extradited from Russia to the US, it's because the Russians couldn't get anything meaningful for him. In which case he'll be put on a plane and granted asylum in one of Russia's client states like in the Caucasus or the Communist South American nations like Ecuador.

Like changing laws in "secret courts", you prick?

[Anonymous Coward]

Like lying to congress as well, you reprehensible on the payroll spinmaster troll? Like targetting political opponents to the current regime in power using the IRS to do it??? Like doing this to protesters who had the RIGHT to do it -> http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2012/dec/29/fbi-coordinated-crackdown-occupy ????

* Fuck off you little jackass... we've had it with "your kind" (grovelling at your paymaster's feet screwing the rest of us like the sociopathic megalomaniac liars you ALL are!)

APK

P.S.=> I don't know about the rest of you, but personally? I've really had it! They take our tax dollars, & fuckup on just about every project, charge triple, pocket 9/10ths, & then ask for more... WTF! Then these fucking bastards in government (mere puppets of the TRUE controllers with the "Holy Dollar" Ca$h) keep on getting caught in MORE BULLSHIT almost daily, slippping more & more - & I have a STRONG feeling more of this is going to keep coming out (call it a "hunch")...

... apk

Why the change of clothes...

[nbritton]

1. The CIA has taken everything but the clothes on his back at the airport. Too many eyes are looking for extraordinary rendition, but that doesn't mean they haven't take all of his luggage in the middle of the night.
2. The government has locked all of his assets.

He has no secrets to sell Russia, the USA wouldn't let him sit in an airport for a month if he, still, had anything of value. Do you see him on youtube? He doesn't have a computer, he doesn't have anything but the clothes on his back. I doubt he's still in the airport, but if he is I want the Daily Show or Colbert to go interview him.

can you imagine

[Anonymous Coward]

just how horny he is?

US does NOT have extradition treaties

[NewYork]

The United States maintains diplomatic relations, but according to the above-mentioned list, does NOT have extradition treaties with the following countries: Afghanistan, Algeria, Andorra, Angola, Armenia, Bahrain, Bangladesh, Belarus, Brunei, Burkina Faso, Burma, Burundi, Cambodia, Cameroon, Cape Verde, the Central African Republic, Chad, China (except Hong Kong), Comoros, Congo (Kinshasa), Congo (Brazzaville), Djibouti, Equatorial Guinea, Eritrea, Ethiopia, Gabon, Guinea, Guinea-Bissau, Indonesia, Ivory Coast, Kazakhstan, Kosovo, Kuwait, Laos, Lebanon, Libya, Macedonia, Madagascar, Maldives, Mali, Marshall Islands, Mauritania, Micronesia, Moldova, Mongolia, Montenegro, Morocco, Mozambique, Namibia, Nepal, Niger, Oman, Qatar, Russia, Rwanda, Samoa, São Tomé & Príncipe, Saudi Arabia, Senegal, Somalia, Sudan, South Sudan, Syria, Togo, Tunisia, Uganda, Ukraine, United Arab Emirates, Uzbekistan, Vanuatu, Vatican, Vietnam, Yemen, and the countries formerly part of Yugoslavia: Bosnia and Herzegovina, Croatia, Serbia, Macedonia, Montenegro, and Kosovo.

The United States is negotiating an extradition treaty with Taiwan
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extradition_law_in_the_United_States#International_extradition