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US IT Worker Files Hiring Lawsuit Against Infosys, Class Action Proposed
itwbennett writes "Brenda Koehler is a VMware-certified professional network engineer with a master's degree in information systems and 17 years of experience. You might think that would qualify her for a lead VMware/Windows administrator, but Indian outsourcing firm Infosys apparently didn't. And Koehler has filed a lawsuit against the company, alleging that Infosys ignored her qualifications and eventually hired a Bangladeshi worker to staff a position she was qualified for. Koehler and her lawyers are asking the U.S. District Court for the Eastern District of Wisconsin to allow a class-action lawsuit against Infosys, with 'thousands' of potential plaintiffs in the case, according to the lawsuit, filed Thursday."
Before the xenophobes jump in, the plaintiff will have to prove discrimination based on race, color, religion, sex, national origin, disability, genetic information, or age. Courts cannot decide on competence and how much money a candidate asked for is also not a basis for discrimination (as long as it is above minimum age).
I find it interesting that they are claiming Title VII instead of violation of H1-B rules, presumably because this way they can point at a systematic exclusion of Americans on a non-technical basis. Of course, when discovery happens, and people start to pop out of the woodwork...
Anybody that has had to deal with any of these firms knows that they do this and regulators (if we still have any) don't give a damn. Maybe the courts might but I doubt it.
Nowhere can I see mention that the Bangladeshi worker wasn't qualified for the position.
If you react to not being hired with a lawsuit, you probably aren't a good fit for any workplace.
All to common of a problem. H1 Visa applicants are way cheeper than Americans. I was replaced a few years ago because they "could not find anyone in america that could do my job". No one asked if I would like to apply.
"Master's degree in information systems and 17 years of experience" does not tell us that she was more qualified than the Bangladeshi hired. I have interviewed too many people who look good on paper only.
Infosys is notorious for abusing the visa system to bring in totally unqualified and clueless south asians to be billable load on the U.S. system. We're talking people that couldn't even make the helpdesk script-reading sytem you get when you call tech support.
Homeland security and Justice department have an intricate investigation since 2012 ongoing on Infosys' fraud and abuse of visa system.
I think she should get on with her career. IT is not a profession like professional sports where there is a very limited number of good-paying jobs. Had she been hired, by her own reckoning she would have probably faced workplace bias and it might not have been a satisfactory work environment for her.
If she's really good she should be able to find another opportunity where she'll be a lot happier than she should have been. OTOH if she's only average or below, well maybe that's why Infosys passed on her in the first place.
I've been turned down by a lot of employers over the course of my career. I spend a total of maybe 20 seconds a year thinking about all of them combined.
it starts with the letter u. what am i thinking about, IT douchebags?
Job applicant didn't get the job and sues company? Maybe it's her attitude that lost her the job.
seen it happen. they probably hired a YOUNGER person. too much experience and too much knowledge can be reason not to hire. sometimes a job merits someone who is still eager and driven towards getting more experience under their belt, or perhaps someone hellbent on climing up the ladders in a company and determined to do things with vigor that show they are loyal to their company (someone more ignorant).
h1b1 rules likey broken as well
While most will criticize her ego, I see the lawsuit has some merits from an immigration/hiring practice angle. The biggest source of H1-B visas are from outsourcing companies like InfoSys, who hires almost exclusively from India. She is alleging that they passed over the qualified American applicants (which she may be one), to claim that no one can fill the opening and get an H1-B instead. This also inadvertently causes a racial bias, which favors South Asians over any other ethnic groups. She may have an inflated sense of self-worth, but the lawsuit is noteworthy as it's (the first time???) I've heard an American worker stands against tech companies in their hiring practices. The are hardly attracting the best minds to the US. They are only getting them cheap. And it must be stopped.
This is a slow train that's been coming for a long time. Richly deserved, by any measure. the US is not India, and isn't going to allow for flagrant, over the top wholesale discrimination. We've already been there, done that, and we're not going back.
Infosys is fucked.
Sell.
There are job posts that may be for level 1-2 jobs but the listed skills needed for the job can be make people who really have all the listed skills to be overqualifed for that job. Some times it's just HR who does not know to much about IT and puts stuff down like need 5 years working with 2012 or windows 7 / 8.
Some times the over the top job posts are there to hire an H1B1 and the big list makes it easy to say that there is no one who wants the job and few that do get past that they find to way to say they will not fit in this job.
I've contracted in the US a few times. I worked closely with the consulting companies I dealt with.
And when it came time to search for more work, they let me in on some of the keywords to watch out for when perusing ads. Those keywords mean they're postings to meet the legal obligation of advertising for a position before bringing someone in on a work visa.
There is no point applying for those jobs -- 99% of the time they already have an overseas candidate in mind and they're just filling in the blanks for the paperwork by posting the ad.
And that was way back in the late 1980's. From what I can see of the situation, it has not changed. Most ads placed in newspapers and online nowadays seem to be to meet the paperwork requirements for bringing in cheap overseas labour.
By the way, I was quite qualified for many of those jobs, and applied anyhow. I had a few interviews, but despite years as an Oracle performance tuner and DBA, it seemed that the cheap Indian offshore workers always got the jobs. Same old, same old.
The US doesn't need H1-B programmers at this point in time -- there are too many unemployed people out there. It's all a scam to save money.
I do not fail; I succeed at finding out what does not work.
Well don't ask for 4 year degree for level 1 jobs or even IT jobs that need lot's of hands on skills to do. But in this case for a lead VMware/Windows administrator 17 years is good certified better only the master part is maybe pushing it.
Now what if some if about 15 years and certified wanted the job as well. Will they still hire the H1B1?
Thousands is a low number. I was recently laid off from a major US corporation because they figured that they can just hire people for cheap in low cost of living regions to perform my job after a fucked up year of having to join conference calls in the middle of the night.
The problem is that there is no import tax on code and services. Our government is more concerned with catching latinos who come here to work and spend money locally because that's what they know ... bang bang bang ... pistols and badges. Oh yeah, and fighting the drugs that ruin our society while corporate executives pat themselves on the back and load up on more of the profits, also made in the US, because people in regions with low standards of living don't care about buying the products they make and support. (ie: Apple in China)
I worked with a guy who had to take a bus home from work, who was doing work that in the US a consultant charges 200$/an hour supporting. Yeah, his work was good, but he was getting ripped off majorly because that's what his fucked up government prepared him for. Slavery.
Now an hiring hall system can be better then some of staffing / Recruiting firms.
an apprenticeship can cut years in the class room and help fill Skill gaps as well. I say 1-2 years pure classroom max (up front) and then some kind of apprenticeship system with on going education.
be changed. They should only be allowed for positions that can not be filled by Americans and can be proven.
One other item is that at some point, we need to say that if a nation is manipulating their money against just the dollar, then we need to stop trade with them. The idea of free trade is that the nations equalize by money changing. With this approach, it is simply theft.
I prefer the "u" in honour as it seems to be missing these days.
I'm 56 years old with 34 years experience as a zOS Systems Programer (MVS Initially). Being paid 121K+bonus. Am I replaceable, sure. Are you going to get someone who not only knows how, but why for 30L? I highly doubt it.
I'm a near expert on Operating Systems, Data Management, Security, Networking, Disaster Recovery processes and procedures. I'm the person whom people go to when something needs to work RIGHT NOW.
You're not going to get anyone like me for less, but it's your business.
unless they are going over seas to get someone claiming she was not qualified for the position, than she is also entitled. If you dont like it find work in your own country, or play by the rules.
When you cant win, ad hominem.
She would not be granted an Indian work visa; she doesn't meet the eligibility requirements to be granted a visa. See:
http://www.immihelp.com/nri/indiavisa/employment-visa-india.html
So yes, national origin is an issue, even if their criteria is hiring someone of any national origin, so long as they work in an office in India, since she wouldn't be allowed by the Indian government to work there.
It doesn't matter that she was simply "qualified" for the job. Another candidate who is "better" qualified will get the job, every time. And, "qualified" doesn't just mean "possesses the credentials that match the job description and has some experience in it." It means that plus "is personable, plays well with other kids in the sandbox, and demonstrates motivation and drive."
Perhaps in the interview she came across as the whiny litigious type that would be nothing more than a constant stream of complaints and grievances.
Qualified for == entitled to under H-1B rules.
now we need to go OSS in diesel cars
The thing is you can't bring in an H1-B visa person just because you want them, or feel like they are a "better fit" or any of that. You can only do it if you cannot find a qualified US candidate (citizen, permanent resident, etc). If you get an applicant that is qualified and wants the job, you have to take them over getting someone on a visa. You can't argue that they are overqualified, because you have to take them if they are qualified.
That's the whole deal with the H1-B visa program: It is supposed to be for jobs you can't fill locally, either because there is too much demand for that kind of worker, the skill set isn't around, whatever. You can't find a qualified candidate, so you get one on a visa.
Could be hard to prove? Im sure pay level requirements in Bangalore are much lower than San Francisco. Its hard for the government to say you can't make more money through outsourcing. Look at what happened to Manufacturing.
... but H1B's do not create Obamacare fines, so there!
I get about 3-6 emails a week from H1B shops offering me jobs in cities I do not live in. I've also expressed no interest in moving to those cities.
Really obvious "We couldn't find a US worker!!" scam.
Every nation manipulates their money against the dollar. Preventing that wouldn't work. Some do it blatantly, revaluing their currency every few years; some throw some whitewash on it and let it float in a narrow band; and some pretend it's purely market-driven. But taxes, duties, and currency purchases and sales can and do alter exchange rates, sometimes dramatically.
But yeah, the visa system needs an overhaul, like more documentation that there are no credible candidates stateside. I think it should include holding over the resumes of all who apply for a given period of time and notes on why they weren't qualified, with random audits. Failing an audit would automatically nullify all visas obtained by the company and block them from applying for new visas for a period of ten years.
I'm not opposed to there being visas, just them being abused.
You can never go home again... but I guess you can shop there.
I hope that the company gets nailed to the wall. I've been in a similar situation for the past four years. I hold multiple certifications including Oracle DBA, but prospective employers don't care about experience, skills or anything except how little they can pay. I've applied for jobs and been passed over for a less experienced H1B worker or some inexperienced trade school kid with an academic visa who doesn't want to go back home and is scrambling to get a green card. We need a law that says "Hire Americans first" with some stiff penalties. Or how about letting companies have as many H1B visas as they want with a yearly fee of $250,000 per H1B visa? And have a clause that overseas outsourcing firms have to pay a similar "labor import duty" per contract worker or employee that is doing work for US companies and the onshore company that has contracted the outsourcing firm has to pay a similar "outsourcing license fee".
Of course when we have Chinese companies doing work on military computer systems for the Pentagon and working on weapons systems as engineers and software developers it's kind of obvious that our leaders have their heads located where the sun never shines, it's nice and warm and the spine assumes a near circular shape. I'd bet that much of the development of the monitoring systems that are watching phone calls, comments on sites, blogs and emails went to Chinese, Pakistani or Indian workers under lucrative outsourcing contracts.
There's a much easier reform. Make it so the H1B worker can work for any employer.
H1Bs are abused because the worker can not seek a job elsewhere in the US. So let them. Pay for H1B workers will rise to be closer to US workers, but companies that really can't find a US worker could still import one.
like the white kid in this video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y70tZDW2AqY
Cuz yachts don't buy themselves...
Shoes for Industry. Shoes for the Dead.
Infosys is basically a staffing company, a "middle man" if you will.
If an American company wants to hire an American worker, why would that American company go through an Indian "middle man?"
Of course Infosys hires mostly Indian workers, American employers don't have to go through an Indian staffing company to hire an American.
It's great to see this kind of thing. I hope she wins, honestly. She's got an uphill battle ahead of her.
What a lot of people don't realize is that Wipro and Infosys buy influence in this country, that's how they've been able to game the system and get away with it for a long time?
Ultimately we need to restructure the H1-B system so that it allows companies to get the talent they need without all the middle-man broker approach and doesn't exploit workers from abroad and keep wages down and unemployment high in this country. We don't need to hire Kindergarten teachers on H1-B visas. http://www.myvisajobs.com/Visa-Sponsor/Fort-Worth-Independent/202267.htm
Really? Fort Worth ISD? Come on you can't find a qualified US resident to teach?
Also, the immigration reforms that seem largely stalled now have some things in it that are making H1-B mills a bit nervous, I say good!
Even in their own country, Wipro, Infosys et al are viewed as "Selling Indians abroad." So it'll be great to see how this case evolves.
http://articles.timesofindia.indiatimes.com/2013-04-23/outsourcing/38762361_1_h-1b-immigration-reform-indian-it
Take a look at the comments.
Harrison's Postulate - "For every action there is an equal and opposite criticism"
This will settle out of court and nobody will admit any wrongdoing at all. They will pay a small fine and go right back to doing what they have been doing.
Hell they just increased the number of visa allowed this year because 'no americans want these jobs' as debt slaves to large companies who maintain all control.
Bribes have been paid... er... lobbyists... nothing will change. status quo will continue.
Mark it well. The future is the same ol shit on this front. What's right and what's good for america doesn't enter into the equation.
So, is it only me thinking it?
We're handing IT jobs away en masse to foreign nationals... and everyone is worried about what the NSA is doing?
It's not like your going to want to work there anyways after you filed a lawsuit against them. They'll just be waiting for a reason to fire you for being such a cunt.
Sing the fucking national anthem while you orangutan-fuck their bank account until the last dollar flutters to the floor.
On the other hand there are plenty of second, some third or even fourth grade engineers still enchanted by USA. They still apply and they are the ones most slashdotters disdainfully make fun of as poor quality desi programmers.
I would not go back, no matter what pay they offer and how many cooks, drivers and maids I could afford over there. Once you get used to the clean water and clean air, and reliable electric grid, it is difficult to readjust. But next generation of me are not coming here. Sadly. It would benefit both USA and them. And those who are still willing to come damage USA and damage the reputation of all Indians, all for a fistful of dollars.
sed -e 's/Chuck Norris/Rajnikant/g' joke > fact
...that today is when that douchebag Wade Michael Page shot up the Oak Creek Sikh Temple? I'm surprised that no one here has any ideas...(turns face away from display to camera).
Infosys_911
While most will criticize her ego, ...
There's always a reason.
I get the opposite criticism from personal interview: I don't have enough 'self-confidence'. I think I'm humble but my opinion doesn't matter.
And above, someone is saying she wouldn't have to sue if she were good enough because she could just move on.
I find that IT/Development/software engineering is one of the most demeaning professions. When I was a developer, I was severely depressed. You what cured my depression? When I left the business.
So, do I still work with computers and program? Yep. But not in IT
Much of the blame goes with the hiring process and the hiring managers. When you constantly see hiring managers say "If you were good enough you'd have a job! If you are good enough it's your 'attitude'." or something. It's always something to kick you when you're down and they kick you when you're up - 'You are overqualified. You are too expensive."
They will always find something wrong with you. I once heard someone say show business is really hard because of the rejection. I said, "Oh, yeah! Try technology - especially IT &software engineering."
They beat you down and wonder why you have a 'bad attitude'.
They hire cheap off-shore people and have the nerve to say, "You can't get a job because you're no good."
So you know what? I hope this woman wins millions and millions of dollars, exposes the stupidity of the software/IT hiring process, and I hope that every hiring manager ends up with a miserable amount of mindless bureaucratic paper work just look at resumes.
Where I am in Florida I see employers do this because they know with a +10% unemployment rate they can find someone who used to make $60,000 a year and is about to be divorced, repo man is taking the car tomorrow, and the bank let him know he has 2 weeks to pay up or be homeless, be thrilled to work for $14/hr with no benefits!!
It is a job!
I am hoping this will change but I was unfortunately in such a position (ok not with the bank), but I took a job at this pace and they wanted senior level output from 2 - 3 peoples worth and it sucked royally but I had to take it.
Now if everyone becomes that desperate then they can simply underpay and overwork whether American or not. FYI 50% of the employees were Indian. They are replacing them left and right to cut costs and I was an American willing to take an Indian job but I had to offer less money with no benefits. I just quit.
So with +100 resumes many employers simply do this as Americans now are willing to do this after your unemployment benefits are out.
http://saveie6.com/
If she could prove that there was opening for this position, and that she qualified, but nevertheless Infosys picked an indian developer, then her case has ground as the company broke the H1B requirements.
Though the H1B visa program requires that qualified Americans be hired first, the program does not provide a private right of action. This restriction can only be enforced by the government, not workers that have been discriminated against. Without a private right of action or government enforcement, the provision has no teeth. Not surprising, because we all know that the salary requirements for H1Bs (must be paid at 60th percentile or higher) are not enforced either.
Personally, I would be happy if they allowed H1B visas portable between employers. Being locked to one employer enabled abuse. These guys can't even be promoted because any change of job will reset their 6 year green card clock.
We need a better system that works for both visa holders and Americans seeking employment. The current system only benefits employers and attorneys.
The world I live in most traditional senior level employees are not done with jr level wages and benefits and require that degree and years of experience because with a +10 unemployement/underemployment rate they can. Supply and demand.
They can still hire H1B1 visa as high paid consultants too if you have +15 years experience and they do get paid a ton of money. I think Infosys would overlook a foreignor with that kind of experience as he would leave the job in a heartbeat.
Infosys customers use them because they are cheap. You do not need a chief either at a McDonalds. Just a line cook right? Same principle when cost and output is important. The data architect where she would be better qualified would the equivalent of a high end restaurant if you decide to use that analogy.
Age discrimination is bad too in this world and many slashotters feel this is more of a racism card. I think being over 40 is bad if you are not senior level or management material by then.
http://saveie6.com/
Same exact problem:
http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/british-columbia/story/2013/04/05/bc-rbc-foreign-workers.html
The workers are also coming from India. I guess there is a billion people trying to get the heck out of there :D
In any event, the strategy of going after the bank that was hiring the temp workers rather than the consultancy firm (e.g., Infosys) might work better. The US firms that are hiring consultants from Infosys would probably hate the PR mess they'd get into when the story hits the media. This big Canadian bank got a lot of flack after the news broke out. I am not sure whether anything came out of it though.
You cannot measure whether the US needs H1-B programmers just by counting the number of unemployed people. You're not hiring people just to type (or flip burgers for that matter). There can be a million crummy applicants who can't find work and still have a shortage of the talent you need.
Now, I know the H1-B program doesn't actually take this into account. But it is the case.
I hired (interviewed 5 candidates or more a month) for 3 YEARS straight because I couldn't find people who were any good. Many filled the qualifications, but they weren't actually good enough to do the work.
I finally filled my positions, hiring 5 people and only 1 H1-B among them (and no green card holders). But not being allowed to hire H1-Bs would just make it take even longer to find skilled people.
I dunno about your particular situation. But if you presume the H1-B process isn't needed because it isn't needed for the kind of positions you fill, you're making a significant error.
I've heard of the kinds of job postings you talk about in your post. But I assure you for me and the other people I know who are hiring, if we got a good person apply to the job posting we put out for an H1-B hire, we'd be thrilled. Because that means we found TWO good candidates, and for a guy who took 3 years to find 5, finding two in one swat would be the thrill of the year.
One thing I noted in working with Infosys is that they require your high school graduation date.
Not evidence you graduated.
Not the year you graduated from college.
I'm sure they think they are being cute, but I hope that they get burned hard for it someday.
She was like chocolate when she drank... semi-sweet at first and then increasingly bitter.
For Infosys, Tata, et al, using as few US citizens and other permanent legal residents as possible is core to their business model. If the work isn't performed primarily in south Asia or in the US by south Asian nationals on a TDY, they lose their market advantage. They aren't yet in a position to broadly complete head-to-head on technical excellence. When then-Senator Clinton got Tata to open an office in NY State, it was with the understanding that if outsourcing was a fact of life, at least she could get some constituients employed at the customer interface. It appears that (at least) Infosys isn't onboard with that concept.
So, IOW, just make it legal for anybody and everybody to come on over. Right?
actually they are useless for most any work that requires results
and if they are childbearing age they are almost guaranteed to get pregnant at some point which will require an employer to give them 3 months off
and you have to deal with possible sexual harssement claims for real or imagined incidents
so yeah, why would anyone ever hire a woman?
But not to worry the conservative SCOTUS in conjuction with tort reform and a proper realignment of labor laws will soon put an end to that. We can't have individuals oppressing corporations because, after all, corporations are people. If workers want to be treated as people they shouldn't be workers. They should choose to be wealthy.
putting the 'B' in LGBTQ+
It's about time someone started calling out these companies for this crap. People keep telling their Congressional representatives the same thing, but all they hear are the corporations with big donation money. Maybe a few of these lawsuits will bring some attention to this obvious scam.
"Somebody has to do something. It's just incredibly pathetic it has to be us."
--- Jerry Garcia
Infosys hires a lot of people in Mexico to get around NAFTA as well. You get as many Mexicans as Indians in some places.
I want to delete my account but Slashdot doesn't allow it.
but the degree does not prove much in IT and it can be discriminating on people who learn better doing work hands on.
Yo butt wipe, that is exactly what it means in this case.
I see this crap every day where I work. I know kids at Oregon State that have just graduated. They rarely get a call back at the company I work for. Instead we get stacks of grad resumes from out of state universities for Indians. Most of them have a undergrad degree from somewhere in India which they had to pay NOTHING for. They come here, and yes pay out of state tuition, but that is still heavily subsidized by governments here.
Why in hells sake are we not charging them the real cost of their education after they paid nothing for the first part and reducing the cost to actual, yes actual, citizens.
If Wisconsin were not a bit out of the way here I would go to the court house on the days and protest against Infosys, their like and the companies who use them.
Three reasons. 1) Being more qualified does not protect you from being hired. If a business wants to hire people that aren't that qualified to do their job, then so be it. It's how it should be because a business can only grow through its own strategies. If it doesn't work, someone else will take their place. Not a big deal, that's how business works.
2) An employer should be allowed to not hire anyone for any reason. I think it's silly to have a law against discrimination when it clearly happens all the time regardless. It's almost impossible to obtain tangible evidence and even if there is, there shouldn't be a law against it, it only makes workplaces more difficult to bear with all that inner-office politics.
3) That person may have looked good on paper, but that shouldn't matter. For all we know, that person could have terrible problem solving abilities or was fired from her last job.
Now she has officially blacklisted herself from the tech industry. 17-years of experience down the drain because of a frivolous lawsuit that will likely end up being dismissed.
Everyone knows infosys is the IT branch of the Indian Mafia. They get away with fraud, death threats, lying, cheating, stealing, and now they get to play with all the computer systems in the US gov't including the justice department. You thought the NSA leaks were bad, wait till people figure out infosys is backdooring the courts to fiddle with documents and cases.
You won't get that job. The H1 Employer will write the ad so that only his potential hire can pass it. I need a person who speaks creole and yiddish, with a degree in fine arts and electrical engineering. Must be able to program in Fortran and java, in cantonese.
When the Employer goes back to INS to prove the job they wrote the definition for cannot be filled except by the H1, the circle is closed.
Oh, and you OWN the H1...you'll never get that with a normal employee.
Attorney who used to write those ads.....
Given this climate what choice do we have but to drop wages in the US radically? And that would mean the cost of everything would have to come down to indian standards.
I don't think the legislators have really thought this one through.
The US is going to become a third world country if we don't get some kind of traction.
I've decided to stop wasting my time responding to AC trolls/sockpuppets... so if you want a response from me... login.
If American companies are paying these IT companies for IT services they have equal responsibility too. American companies which want to cut cost really won't care whether a H1B worker does the work or someone else does. If American companies don't care about American citizens and are only interested in increasing their profits by awarding IT contracts to H1B abusers who is to be blamed?
Consider a situation where American companies say a clear no to H1B abusers. Which company would be willing to do and increase their costs?
On the one hand cutting IT costs are a requirement and on the other hiring American employees more expensive than H1B employees are a requirement. There are so many banks, insurance companies hiring H1B employees, if they want they have a choice to hire 100% American employees. Why can't these companies do their fair role and stop H1B abuse?
I have been watching this happen in Silicon Valley and other tech regions for years. It's an abomination and it's about time that it stop! I have seen L-1 visa holders from India who are here for "university studies", go to a place like Heald College for six months, come on board as *full-time* employees, with benefits (while professional non-Asian-Indian American IT professionals *with experience* were hired on as contractors). THen, I watched as the full time Americans with rock-solid skills got riffed after training the L-1 visa holder who didn't know jack, and *still* didn't know jack after a long training period.
I have seen these H1-B, L-1 and several other visa holders come to work on the first day and start hugging and chumming around with senior Asian-Indian supervisors who were their *relatives or friends* from back home.
I have watched as Asian Indian supervisors treat their American (and Indian) subordinates like chattel, not to mention looking right through female employees.
I have seen Asian Indian "consulting" groups establish domestic US connections so that their workers can claim "experience with a US company for 1 year", thus enabling the visa holder to emigrate to America.
I have listened to the likes of Bill Gates, John Chambers, Mark Zuckerberg, and many others LIE about the shortage of qualified American IT workers.
I have talked to DOZENS of IT peers who have been out of work for more than a year because every time they aplpy for a position thety are talking to guess who? - an East-Asian-Indian recruiter who can't speak clear English, does not have a clue about what the requirements are for the position, and spouts nonsense from the their doctored RPF's that list skills like "must know C++ and Ruby" for a BASIC QA position. Are you kidding me?
Now, our corporate overlords and these corrupt Indian companies (including the Indian government, whose corrupt officials are on the take from American corporations) want an increase in the H1-B quotas that would double those quotas AND let the spouses of these mostly UNQUALIFIED H1-Bs get an immediate right to work in America (which has not been possible by current rules). Are you kidding me.
The entire Hi-B whine is a SCAM, and a LIE, and a TRAITOROUS double-cross of the American IT worker, and other workers who would LOVE to have the same opportunity as an L-1 worker who doesn't know crap, and still won't know crap after s/he's trained.
Last, outside of IIT (Indian Institute of Technology) why don't we hear about the PATHETIC level of instruction and talent that comes out of most of India's other universities, where professors don't even show up, and make their real $$$ arranging private tutorials with students that can afford to pay for private lessons. Why? Because the immoral, corrupt leaches that run the Indian government don't give a rat's ass about their own people, just like the corrupt, immoral leaches in the American government.
I'm sorry, but when I hear "so-and-so's overqualified and more experienced and therefore more expensive" I really have to wonder how this becomes such a common topic in hiring conversations.
Certainly, some positions require a great deal of negotiation for both parties to arrive at a price - but most jobs really don't work that way at all, do they?
No, most jobs have a static pay rate or relatively fixed contract budget and either you accept what they offer, or you move on.
Same for the other side of the table - do most managers really have the authority to grossly overspend on talent? Really? "Spent too much on that guy, $50K to script batch processes at 3rd shift at a colo, and he just isn't innovating... That's what I get for hiring a college graduate... "
If you are looking for the best, you spend and take that risk, if not, you make a reasonable offer and if they counter too high, you say, "this is what the position pays, do you want it or not?"
At some businesses, you start as a temp, no matter what your experience. At a Big NYC Agency, you start in the mail room, even if you've passed the bar exam in 2 states. Given that this model is successful for some very successful firms, maybe businesses that "overpay for talent" are really just overpaying too many middle-managers or doing a piss-poor job of recruiting. Or, maybe it's a complaint without any merit at all, designed to create a chilling effect on an aging workforce to get them to give up things like benefits
Just let the market regulate itself. This is not Soviet America.
How many think the U.S H1-B visa norms is a form of 'barrier for trade' ? It's a shame because the U.S flouts these laws in most other nations and calls it free trade or some shit like that.
We all know, unless you have a secret recording from the interview, some stupid employer representative says things that is not so kosher, it is impossible to prove discrimination. But, does it really mean that her lawsuit is baseless ? We, including all the competent and mostly incompetent IT workers from India, know that, infosys, tata and wipro are only functional and operational in USA, because they know how to rig and play the system. And the corrupt US politicians who in the pockets of facebooks and micro$ofts are fanning the fire by providing higher number of H1B quotas.
Do you know the latest game infosys a-holes play ? I have been a victim of this ploy. First off they use third party, pond-scum Indian operated recruiters to make their bids, so nothing sticks to them. I am not sure how this lady got into talks with these people at infosys, directly. But anyway, infosys runs the support shop for Cisco Systems and they were looking for a UNIX heavy guy with some TCP/IP networking knowledge and they found me through some site, where I posted my resume. FIrst off the bat, they low-balled the initial offer for working in San Jose. They offered me something like 10% less money than, what I was making at my last position in Southern Cali. which is another 20-some percent cheaper to live compared to the bay area. But, considering it is better than living on an unemployment check, I agreed to interview. After about 3 or 4 botched calls by them, I had the *pleasure* of talking to an infosys employee, calling me from India, for about 30 minutes, who did the *technical* interview to judge my UNIX expertise level with few easy questions, which, someone who installed linux and played with it for a couple of days can answer. Then I got a call back from the secondary, pond-scum agency, telling me that, I past my tech-screen with flying colors. No-shit-Sherlock... I have been a UNIX sysadmin for more than 20 years and he read a book about it ?? Anyway, they wanted to offer me the position but, the BIG BUT, infosys renegotiated the rate and they have to scale back the already low hourly rate by another 15%. At that point, I told the guy to go pound sand. And I am sure, for the money they were thinking about paying, they hired an indian UNIX sysadmin, who didn't mind sharing an apartment with 5 or more others like himself.
Maybe, just maybe, we the American IT workers should play their game and force these three clown companies from india, by filing lawsuit after lawsuit, even if it is going to be rejected. The problem is, we do not have the deep pockets. Maybe organizations like groklaw and EFF should consider mounting such a campaign. Operating on the outskirts of the law, doesn't necessarily mean that, they have the right to rape the American IT sector.
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The more I know people, the more I love animals
I am very amazed that anyone still wants to work in your hellhole of a cuntry.
"Give me your tired, your poor,
Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free,
The wretched refuse of your teeming shore.
Send these, the homeless, tempest-tost to me,
I lift my lamp beside the golden door!"
An easy way for Infosys to get away without legal trouble would have been to add "speaks fluent Hindi" to the job description.
That way they could reasonably argue that they found no suitable candidate in the US.
It sounds to me like you're pretty much arguing that the work visa a a really cool business model. WHEN IT'S BEING USED CORRECTLY.
My "saga":I have a few years ago worked for a very large American company. And in my country, admittedly, there are about 50 times the number of IT jobs available compared to the amount of unemployed IT people (Bachelor degree equivalent or higher education).
this puts (and still does) a higher price on talent. And i've benefitted from that, certainly. I wont deny that. But I've ALSO been taking paycuts to finance improving working conditions, re-educating obsolete talent and a few other things.
So I was appauled when I found out that MY company, whom I had worked for for over 10 years, had started, not only "importing" foreign labor, but underpaying them, AND lying about it to the government (otherwise they couldn't get a visa, if the salary officially wasn't high enough), AND forcing the hirees to pay a "deposit" of roughly 2 years salary, payable to the company should the hirees, for ANY REASON be dismissed from their work within the first 2 years of their employment. downright blackmail.... They underpaid, they lied and cheated the government and their own employees. I immediately handed in my resignation and found a new job. Sure the new place didn't have the benefits I had fought for over the last 10 years, but at least the new place was honest about it.
And the new place also hired foreign talent, but did it according to the rules, and only because staffing was a pain, and took forever.
Bottom line: There are liars and cheats out there who will do anything for a buck, but there are also businesses who will act morally, legally and ethically correct. The trick is to be able to tell them apart. And I believe that if the OOP is in the a situation where someone else was hired under the rules, at his/her expense, then that's just tough luck. If that person was hired, bending the rules, then it's abuse of power, not discrimination. I see many problems with this type of hiring, but I do not see a discrimination suit being won...
--- To err is human... Am I more human than most ?
I am curious what would have happened if Infosys said "Ok Brenda. You are clearly qualified. We pay 50K/year for this position. Do you want it?". She says no and declines job and they go and hire the Bangladeshi. What are the legal ramifications at this point? Essentially, can the "US worker" demand as much money as he/she want (up to a worker set industrial average that ignores global competition in the current market) and say you MUST pay me this - not what you want to pay?
Infosys cares about one qualification only - Will you work for less than minimum wage?
That seems to be the extent of their hiring process. I know because I've seen the code they produce.
If I run a business, I should have the freedom to hire or fire whoever I like, for whatever reason I like. Discrimination is how society functions on the most basic. Not every reason is considered "logical", there's times I don't associate with someone or buy something simply because I don't have a good feeling about it. Is that discrimination? Absolutely. We all discriminate all the time. It happens every time we make a choice.
Who are you to tell me who I may hire to work in my business? Who am I to tell you who you can hire? Discrimination laws do precisely this. If society as a whole disagrees with the practice of a business, for example a business that hires only whites, then people can choose to not invest, frequent, or promote that business and it will quickly go out of business without anyone lifting a finger.
This is a global market. Companies want to make money. Apparently 'completely unqualified' H1B workers are worth their money. Perhaps American IT workers are simply hugely overpaid.
There is an easy solution. The companies claim that US workers don't have the necessary skills required. That means we need to train local people for the position.
For an H-1b visa to be approved, the normal salary (not a lowball one) + $100K/yr to the US Job Training program needs to be added on. The company who really wants a highly skilled foreign worker can have that person AND that company can help Americans become trained in the specific skills necessary and desired.
Seems like an easy answer to me. We keep the jobs local, get training money and drastically reduce the number of abuses in the system. The $100K annual "education tax" can't be added immediately, start with $10K/yr and add $10K/yr until the $100K is reached. This will let companies slowly adjust and allow Americans time to get the training.
I see a problem here. A lot of people over here are making this is US vs India (rest of the world?) issue. It's not. It's just about profit. Plain and simple. I am sure most of you would run to get jobs if it gave you the chance of a better life in a developed nation and getting paid in dollars in a cleaner environment with slightly balanced population. Don't judge the workers because all they are seeking is a better life. It's the huge corporations that are making the difference in the salaries as the huge profits they post every year.
Yes, I have seen the same thing. Not for a position I have applied for, but I have seen several positions like that.
Where I work, our CIO is indian, and everytime a high level position opens up, he fills it with another indian.
Indians are a small percentage of the population, yet they keep ending up in top positions and would have you believe nobody in America has those skills. Bullshit! It's descrimination against non-Indians, and if the court's can't see that, then the courts are useless, and we need to ignore them.
Posting anonymously for obvious reasons.
I work at a "public utility" in the Southwest of the USA.
Shortly after the economic implosion, the company decided to off-shore their IT department to Infosys. First, the Infosys guys are not coming over on H1-B visas, they are B-1 visas, education visas. This means they cannot "work" or receceive compensation in the USA. Despite this, they are still perfoming all IT duties that were previously performed by USA citizens. Since they are not technically "workers", the utility doesn't have to pay for social security, unemployment, or any other taxes that were paid for USA employeees. The Infosys guys live in company provided apartments and are given pre-paid visa cards for purchasing incidentals.
One side-effect of the B-1 visa is that the individuals cannot stay in the USA for more than two or three months, thus there is a constant flux of workers moving in and out, this effect is noticed by the quality of work provided by Infosys.
The help desk and IT support individuals were offered jobs with Infosys: Help desk was offered $20/hour and desktop support was offered $15.
After some negotiations, some help desk individuals decided to stay but most left within the first weeks.
During the time since the off-shoring and the last year, executive pay has increased about 50%-75%, nevertheless, Infosys remains.
Thus 50 or so USA employees lost their jobs, and inevitably went on unemployment for a period of time while the money they and their employer put into the economy was shifted to another country; during this time executive compensation increased as did company profitability.
There are no laws or precidents to protect USA IT workers from this sort of exploitation, since Wal*Mart and other large, powerful lobbying companies use Infosys and similar methods to cut costs on their IT staffs.
Nothing needs to be mentioned about the quality of the work, other posts elaborate on this adequetely
If this goes class action and I sign up for it, will my name show up in a background check? Virtually every company runs background checks. There was an article in the newspaper about how these checks run through an FBI database and are not complete. For example, if you get arrested or get sued, that shows up. The outcome doesn't. If future employers will know that I was involved in a class action suit against another vendor, there is a good chance that HR will not allow them to hire me. They wont tell me why I wasn't hired, I'll just get passed over.
This is a legitimate concern. Anyone know?
IT companies (including IBM, Accenture, etc...with the Indian companies) constantly want people on Visas. As soon as they get greencards there people quit. If you are from India and have a greencard, having more people come over here puts you in the same boat as the rest of us. Once you get your greencard, your not all that valuable to your former employer because someone else will pay you better and you don't have to put up with the 'pack up and move at your expensive or be deported'.
I'd like to see greencard holders file a lawsuit. you are at the same disadvantage those of us who are born here are at. I have worked with alot of people from India. They always quit as soon as their greencards come in.
This is not the first time Infosys has discriminated against American IT professionals. There have been LOTS of complaints in the past. You can see a few articles if you look around with Google
No, the H1B worker would still have to have a sponsor to come over.
We are hiring a new guy every month or so,... I will call you on potentially everything in your resume and you better know your stuff because if I see you have been embellishing your resume I am not interested. Same thing goes if you have too many certifications. I prefer hands on people who know their shit, all the certs tell me is youre desperate.
You just went on the DO NOT HIRE list of every major HR department in the nation!
And here I was so looking forward to the "Dice Virtual Open House, featuring Infosys" that I got spammed with last week.
To employ the internet vernacular... "lulz"
Maybe Mark Zuckerberg can pony up whatever zillions in lawyer fees are required to defend Infosys' policy against hiring Americans.
Frankly he'd better do so. If a decision goes in favor and qualified U.S. workers in general, this could be Zuck's Waterloo.
It's publicly available on LinkedIn here:
http://www.linkedin.com/in/brendakoehler
Plenty of short-term employment, and her last job of more than a year was outside of the IT field. Most of the recent experience is in project management. If I was looking for a VMWare engineer, this is not a resume that would knock my socks off. Granted, I'm much more impressed by hands-on experience than I am by certification (someone who is self-taught that can demonstrate expertise is optimal - shows passion for the field). But even so (and I've read about 75 resumes in the past few weeks) this is probably not somebody I would follow-up with unless the pickings were really bad. Plus, somebody that would launch a class-action lawsuit over being turned down for a job is not somebody I would want anywhere near my company.
I've long suspected it's at least as much about control and compliance for management as it is the wages. Given the overhead involved in getting H1Bs versus native workers and the reasonably well accepted performance penalty (weaker talent, communications, bad code) involved in using non-native labor, I think the cost saving is probably a wash if you looked at the labor costs associated with a finished project.
H1Bs have two things going for them as management sees them:
1) Most are from a country with deep social stratification and an in-built deference to those in a higher social strata. You're not just getting less expensive labor, you're getting someone who has been raised in a culture where they have been taught since youth that they are subservient to their betters.
2) The strong desire to stay in America, even if it means living 12 to a shitty 2 bedroom apartment.
Both of those things result in a compliant workforce that eats overtime for free and is happy to switch from a good, interesting job to shit work during shit hours without complaining.
Native-born IT workers usually see themselves at least as intelligent, if not more so, than management and quite often easily challenge management decisions regarding IT, frustrating management control and prestige. With high IT salary demands, it becomes harder for middle tier managers to control their employees and achieve status since their income isn't enough more than their employees to make wealth a strong differentiator.
This is a peculiar situation. We dont know whatkind of job she is overqualified for. I've (I'm american) manager who was given an onus of porting a legacy application into Webservices. The work was mind numbingly routine based and with hardly any innovation - we faced huge attrition from my own country men. The most common reason cited was the work did not align with their career preferences - in other words - too boring, we're moving on.
After a year of wrangling we decided to outsource it to a vendor who brought in a few H1Bs to see if we could tide over this. We've seen almost no attrition since. There are cultural speedbumps, certainly, but my biggest nuiscance was taken care of in one go.
If this woman had been apt but had I felt she was overqualified knowing in advance possibly her skillsets were far in advance to the job routine - I'm perfectly within my bounds to assess the possiblity she may not stick around and not choose her even though she's awesome!!
As like the case in BC, Canada
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"Ideally under 25 with 10+ years of java 37 on Windows 10."
and 12 years on Mac 10.10.3 (10.10.1 or 10.10.4 simply won't do), 5 years on iOS, plus accounting, marketing, graphic arts, data-base analysis and design...
Meanwhile, 2,375 US citizens who would have been able to do well on the real job that needs to be done (individually or in a team of people with complementary knowledge and talents) would be rejected out of hand as "unqualified".
"But we must have a purple squrrel! Right now!"
The position she was applying for is VMware lead. The total experience she has on VMware platform is less than 2 years. And the last time she had hands-on experience on VMWare is over 1 year ago ... and she thinks she's entitled for this job? Are you kidding me!! It took me over 10+ years to become a UNIX lead.
If she's truly confident of her skills, she should take a lab test on VMware along with the guy who got the job - conducted by none other than VMware. Let the more talented person win. I bet she would chicken out at this proposal.
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Some great software product developers are in the autism spectrum, and thus are very likely to be categorized as not "socially adept" but can get along fine with people if they've been trained about specific things, and the people with whom they work are similarly capable of adjusting their expectations appropriately.
Many great software product developers are quite willing to wear 3-piece suits (and great-coats in the frozen north)... if you pay them enough to be able to afford buying several such, cover the dry cleaning bills, as well as the usual mortgage/rent, local food prices, local taxes, local transportation costs, their own on-going education and training, their family's education, insurance, etc. And certainly so for the rare meetings with customers or investors.
Still, there's nothing wrong with wearing jeans and T-shirts and comfy shoes to work in a cave or cubicle in the vast majority of software product development firms most days of the year.
Actual reasonable human beings don't have to put up with people who initiate force or fraud, or engage in belligerent PC nonsense.
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But calling insertion of HTML tags "programming" is reminiscent of earlier waves of title infation like calling mere USERS of, e.g. statistical software packages, or data-base management systems, or spread-sheets* "programmers" instead of merely configurers and formatters and accessors. In reality, they're not quite programs, not quite doing "real programming". Maybe moderately-savvy, advanced- or super-user might be appropriate for some of them, but they're still "just users". Putting together a macro or a script is not equivalent to programming, though, e.g. Python kind of bridges the divide.
I've even seen/heard using a text editor referred to as doing "programming".
* After hearing a radio interview of the pres. of the local juco talking about their STEM programs a few days back, I went to check their courses and certificates. Sure enough, they have "certificates" in using a spread-sheet and word processor, FCOL -- something any bright computer programming student (or even minimally bright 4th or 5th graders) could figure out in a flash. And they're classifying this as "science, technology, engineering and math".
And MSFT Javascript is evil. Eschew Javascript.
Since the premise of the H1B is that no one in the US is qualified to do the job being hired for, the solution is that the H1B program should be revamped to require a US worker be hired to shadow the H1B at equal pay and a requirement that they do not produce any usable work from the shadowing. This way, the cost advantage of H1B goes down the toilet and local workers get a job either way. This should severely curtail the illegitimate use of H1Bs.
For the situations where the H1B is legitimate, there are two points of view that must be considered. The employer and the country. For the employer, they should expect to pay through the nose if they have a job that requires skills so unique that there isn't a single person in a first world country of over 300 million that can fit the bill. If the person did exist, and the company didn't violate the law with an H1B, they would likely be paying as much as they do for the double salary anyway. Plus they are training a backup in case the H1B doesn't last for any reason.
From a countries perspective... If there is a job that is necessary in our country, and there isn't a single person in the entire USA that can do the job, then we absolutely need to train people in this. Thus, from a national perspective, the local hire becomes part of maintaining our national security, just as much as making sure we have viable farm land is maintaining our national security.
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But if they do exactly the same thing and present it to the user in a web page, they are not?"
No, none of those are "programmers". They're data-base USERS.
"Bidness validation" ptui!
In the end it's probably for a 3 month contract on the other side of the United States anyway.
Or not even him. Why there's no check that the requirement is eventually met is beyond me. Rather negates the point of having it in the first place, doesn't it?
And this isn't just limited to H1-Bs. I've seen it in other countries too, and not necessarily to bring in foreigners. *Cough* nepotism *cough*
Confucius say, "Find worm in apple - bad. Find half a worm - worse."
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No, there is no requirement to pay the market rate, only to pay the legal fiction "prevailing wage", which empirical data and statements of bodyshoppers and foreign ministers indicate to be 10% to 35% below local market compensation.
Hmm, I wonder how many of those 1,000 US citizens Tata promised to employ at their Milford/Cincinnati "North American Headquarters" by 2010 were ever hired. I did read that they'd hired "400 people recruited from colleges in the region", but they didn't define the "region", and they adamantly refuse to say how many of those were US citizens, how many have been hired and fired already, or how they're doing toward the promised 1,000 US citizen employees. Siemens (German) bought out SDRC which neighbored the Tata Milford office, and I recently learned that a lot of the people they employed were from India and Germany (just as they did in their Lake Mary, FL office), while I know good STEM pros in the Cincy area are begging for work.
Federal rates are calculated based on regulations established by the Department of Labor. According to Code of Federal Regulations, "The prevailing wage shall be the wage paid to the majority (more than 50 percent) of the laborers or mechanics in the classification on similar projects in the area during the period in question. If the same wage is not paid to a majority of those employed in the classification, the prevailing wage shall be the average of the wages paid, weighted by the total employed in the classification."[4] State level rates are calculated using various methods including an average of all wage rates paid, the mode, or based on collectively bargained rates.
When you cant win, ad hominem.
You could have simplified this task a lot by just make one of the job requirements: "must smell of decaying curry and their own shit" .
http://www.pennlive.com/midstate/index.ssf/2013/03/mcdonalds_foreign_students_che.html
This woman does not have relevant job experience and yet need to be hired because she is American. The job says VMware/windows admin and she has no knowledge of active directory and she claims she has 17 years of IT experience. .....
Any newbie admin knows what Active Directory is
Dumbcow didnt get the job so she is screaming racism.
Go to any large company and see who are in management. 99% of them are white and that is racism and i dont see people complaining about it
I work in IT and year after year all i see is white people getting promoted. Worse thing is the person i trained gets promoted ahead of me just because of his color
I think we open up a STEM college with only MOOC courses. Then grant STEM degrees after short while. Then these guys would automatically qualify for green cards under the new law. No limit or nasty restrictions like H1Bs.
Ok I was a H1-B in US a long time ago and am in India now. I completely agree with most people here. Indian outsourcing companies offer nothing new except lower pay and lower costs. Most of them run glorified sweat shops. I remember once we gave an estimate for supply chain project for 120 days and the manager finally submitted it as 40 days. In fact it was a frequent thing to find your estimates cut by 50% by your counterpart in US. Since Indian employees in these companies can work 24x7 with no rights these guys get away with it. And the guy landing in US through them is also likely to stretch impossible hours since he owes them his entry.
Infosys has a rule in India where employees have to mandatorily put in 9 hours a day excluding lunch. Of course all those extra hours you put in wont get counted for overtime pay and the 9 hour calculation is by week.Worst part the founders are treated as some heroes in India.
I am glad I no longer work for any of these companies.
"No qualified candidate is available locally"
Emphasis on the word locally.
Which is why H1B outfits pester people with job offers in different cities. ("We can't find anyone in the area and noone wants to move")
I'm not a USA citizen, nor do I have any desire to work on H1B - precisely because it leaves the holder vulnerable to employer diktat on hours, etc etc.
What does surprise me is that a country which was BUILT on immigration is trying so hard to lock the doors to anyone else now trying to come in. It's not exactly "full" and the protectionism which is occurring is precisely why these employment scams can be perpetuated (ie, skilled non-USA-born employees faced with unfair demands should be able to "walk" or negotiate better conditions just as easily as "locals". H1Bs force a lockin on them AND undercut the locals (although to be fair, some locals have higher expectations than they deserve.).
Comments on the quality of "foreign" programmers are noted and agreed with (especially observations along the lines of "4 pages of obfuscated code where only 3 lines are needed), however in a properly free market they wouldn't have been hired in the first place, nor would they be retained for long.
This is a cycle being repeated in almost all countries where companies looking to preserve their bottomline without worrying about improving in other areas tend to embark upon the quick fix "IT Outsourcing" Being almost 12+ years in this field, I can relate to the mentality of the hiring organization and empathise with the "over qualified" colleague. In today's commoditized IT labor landscape, if 1 resource can be replaced by 2 cheaper resources who in long run can do work of 3, it makes commercial sense for the client & the service provider. The potential target group is usually the heavy experienced people whose skill has been commoditized. This is a cascading effect of the client looking for improving margins in outsourcing, the vendor maintaining his margins while offering reduced priced service and not wanting to pay premium when he can get away with a cheaper & probably not "suitably qualified" resource.