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US IT Worker Files Hiring Lawsuit Against Infosys, Class Action Proposed
itwbennett writes "Brenda Koehler is a VMware-certified professional network engineer with a master's degree in information systems and 17 years of experience. You might think that would qualify her for a lead VMware/Windows administrator, but Indian outsourcing firm Infosys apparently didn't. And Koehler has filed a lawsuit against the company, alleging that Infosys ignored her qualifications and eventually hired a Bangladeshi worker to staff a position she was qualified for. Koehler and her lawyers are asking the U.S. District Court for the Eastern District of Wisconsin to allow a class-action lawsuit against Infosys, with 'thousands' of potential plaintiffs in the case, according to the lawsuit, filed Thursday."
I find it interesting that they are claiming Title VII instead of violation of H1-B rules, presumably because this way they can point at a systematic exclusion of Americans on a non-technical basis. Of course, when discovery happens, and people start to pop out of the woodwork...
Anybody that has had to deal with any of these firms knows that they do this and regulators (if we still have any) don't give a damn. Maybe the courts might but I doubt it.
Nowhere can I see mention that the Bangladeshi worker wasn't qualified for the position.
If you react to not being hired with a lawsuit, you probably aren't a good fit for any workplace.
All to common of a problem. H1 Visa applicants are way cheeper than Americans. I was replaced a few years ago because they "could not find anyone in america that could do my job". No one asked if I would like to apply.
"Master's degree in information systems and 17 years of experience" does not tell us that she was more qualified than the Bangladeshi hired. I have interviewed too many people who look good on paper only.
Infosys is notorious for abusing the visa system to bring in totally unqualified and clueless south asians to be billable load on the U.S. system. We're talking people that couldn't even make the helpdesk script-reading sytem you get when you call tech support.
Homeland security and Justice department have an intricate investigation since 2012 ongoing on Infosys' fraud and abuse of visa system.
National Origin is the claim. And yes, discrimination must be proved, as must any claim in court. They select Asians over Americans. That's discrimination.
Learn to love Alaska
I wouldn't be surprised if someone else is behind this. If Infosys was smart, they'd settle quickly, otherwise lots of interesting information will come out in discovery. Information which will require they buy a lot of Congress-people and Senators if they want to continue operating in the country.
seen it happen. they probably hired a YOUNGER person. too much experience and too much knowledge can be reason not to hire. sometimes a job merits someone who is still eager and driven towards getting more experience under their belt, or perhaps someone hellbent on climing up the ladders in a company and determined to do things with vigor that show they are loyal to their company (someone more ignorant).
The plaintiff doesn't have to do anything of the sort. The plaintiff doesn't even have to prove that she is more qualified than the person they ultimately hired, merely that she was qualified for the position. H1B and the like require you to hire locally if possible first.
it starts with the letter u. what am i thinking about, IT douchebags?
I can't think of any English word that meets those requirements.
You're thinking about "union", but "union" doesn't rhyme with "ion".
Just like a typical union worker, you've:
1: Failed to get the basics right.
2: Demanded far too much time, money, and attention for your output.
3: Managed to act like an asshole in the brief interaction you've had with other people on the matter.
h1b1 rules likey broken as well
You might be surprised... see, if they're hiring H1B workers, it means they're implicitly claiming (under the laws that allow H1B work visas so you can hire foreigners in the first place) that NO SUITABLE TALENT could feasibly be found state-side. If it can be proven however that they regularly pass over US citizens for the sole reason that H1B workers are the more cost effective option, they're probably going to be facing heavy fines at the very least. Its quite possible they will be in a lot of trouble and the court case will precipitate the type of more heavy restrictions on granting of H1B visas in the first place.
While most will criticize her ego, I see the lawsuit has some merits from an immigration/hiring practice angle. The biggest source of H1-B visas are from outsourcing companies like InfoSys, who hires almost exclusively from India. She is alleging that they passed over the qualified American applicants (which she may be one), to claim that no one can fill the opening and get an H1-B instead. This also inadvertently causes a racial bias, which favors South Asians over any other ethnic groups. She may have an inflated sense of self-worth, but the lawsuit is noteworthy as it's (the first time???) I've heard an American worker stands against tech companies in their hiring practices. The are hardly attracting the best minds to the US. They are only getting them cheap. And it must be stopped.
This is a slow train that's been coming for a long time. Richly deserved, by any measure. the US is not India, and isn't going to allow for flagrant, over the top wholesale discrimination. We've already been there, done that, and we're not going back.
Infosys is fucked.
Sell.
There are job posts that may be for level 1-2 jobs but the listed skills needed for the job can be make people who really have all the listed skills to be overqualifed for that job. Some times it's just HR who does not know to much about IT and puts stuff down like need 5 years working with 2012 or windows 7 / 8.
Some times the over the top job posts are there to hire an H1B1 and the big list makes it easy to say that there is no one who wants the job and few that do get past that they find to way to say they will not fit in this job.
I thought so too, but then I read the complaint. They claim harassment on basis of national origin.
At one job, the Asian workers left messages for (non-Asian) American workers threatening them and their families if they made trouble, etc. The Asians weren't just working cheaper. They were harassing the Americans. It sounded like they really didn't understand American culture.
There was also an element of anti-American discrimination.
The complaint also argues that they got H-1B visas by certifying that there were no available American workers, when it wasn't true. They also certified that they would pay Asian workers the prevailing wage, when that wasn't true either.
I've contracted in the US a few times. I worked closely with the consulting companies I dealt with.
And when it came time to search for more work, they let me in on some of the keywords to watch out for when perusing ads. Those keywords mean they're postings to meet the legal obligation of advertising for a position before bringing someone in on a work visa.
There is no point applying for those jobs -- 99% of the time they already have an overseas candidate in mind and they're just filling in the blanks for the paperwork by posting the ad.
And that was way back in the late 1980's. From what I can see of the situation, it has not changed. Most ads placed in newspapers and online nowadays seem to be to meet the paperwork requirements for bringing in cheap overseas labour.
By the way, I was quite qualified for many of those jobs, and applied anyhow. I had a few interviews, but despite years as an Oracle performance tuner and DBA, it seemed that the cheap Indian offshore workers always got the jobs. Same old, same old.
The US doesn't need H1-B programmers at this point in time -- there are too many unemployed people out there. It's all a scam to save money.
I do not fail; I succeed at finding out what does not work.
There are a lot of assumptions and bad logic in your post. if they have workplace bias than that needs to be dealt with, telling someone to move on is not the right answer to it.
When you cant win, ad hominem.
Well don't ask for 4 year degree for level 1 jobs or even IT jobs that need lot's of hands on skills to do. But in this case for a lead VMware/Windows administrator 17 years is good certified better only the master part is maybe pushing it.
Now what if some if about 15 years and certified wanted the job as well. Will they still hire the H1B1?
You are right only if they made her an offer she refused by demanding more than market pay. They didn't make her an offer, so how do they know she wouldn't work for their desired fee? They don't. They rejected her without proper legal consideration. They broke the law.
Learn to love Alaska
The H1B wars... begun they have...
Do not look into laser with remaining eye.
Thousands is a low number. I was recently laid off from a major US corporation because they figured that they can just hire people for cheap in low cost of living regions to perform my job after a fucked up year of having to join conference calls in the middle of the night.
The problem is that there is no import tax on code and services. Our government is more concerned with catching latinos who come here to work and spend money locally because that's what they know ... bang bang bang ... pistols and badges. Oh yeah, and fighting the drugs that ruin our society while corporate executives pat themselves on the back and load up on more of the profits, also made in the US, because people in regions with low standards of living don't care about buying the products they make and support. (ie: Apple in China)
I worked with a guy who had to take a bus home from work, who was doing work that in the US a consultant charges 200$/an hour supporting. Yeah, his work was good, but he was getting ripped off majorly because that's what his fucked up government prepared him for. Slavery.
At least 2 problems with your argument:
1. In order to win, Ms Koehler needs to prove that she was rejected because of her national origin rather than her qualifications and merits. Since we don't know what evidence she has, we don't know if she's right, but if she wins her case it will be because she has demonstrated by a preponderance of the evidence that Infosys basically hung out a sign that said "Help Wanted. No Americans need apply" (similar to this). What she is claiming is that she could be the best worker in existence and still not be hired or even seriously considered solely because she is a US citizen.
2. You seem to be suggesting that if you're the victim of injustice, the right thing to do is to accept it and move on. Historically speaking, that never works. For example, Booker T Washington argued that African-Americans should basically accept the injustices aimed at them and try to improve themselves with education and entrepreneurship. The result was more injustices, particularly aimed at those who had become educated and/or entrepreneurs. By contrast, Medger Evers wanted to fight for African-American rights, and that strategy ultimately succeeded (but not for Evers, who was killed for his stance).
I am officially gone from
This isn't about being white or race in general, it's about domestic labor versus imported labor.
They could have hired British H1B workers and it would be just as illegal.
Do not look into laser with remaining eye.
Now an hiring hall system can be better then some of staffing / Recruiting firms.
an apprenticeship can cut years in the class room and help fill Skill gaps as well. I say 1-2 years pure classroom max (up front) and then some kind of apprenticeship system with on going education.
be changed. They should only be allowed for positions that can not be filled by Americans and can be proven.
One other item is that at some point, we need to say that if a nation is manipulating their money against just the dollar, then we need to stop trade with them. The idea of free trade is that the nations equalize by money changing. With this approach, it is simply theft.
I prefer the "u" in honour as it seems to be missing these days.
My company recently adopted a no H1-B visa policy because we're doing a bit of military work, or so I assume (they really don't tell me anything). We've had a rec open for a hot-shot algorithms geek since January, and trust me, the applicants are not beating a path to our door. This is a fantastic job for the right guy, and it kills me that we're having trouble finding someone to fill it.
The last super-algorithms programmer we hired was from IIT Madras. He's amazing. Before that, we hired an equally amazing white guy right out of college with a BS degree. Good talent is hard to find right now, which is why I think this class action lawsuit is doomed. Maybe it could have gotten some traction in 2010.
Shameless plug: if you're a super-geek, work well with others (so many of us don't), and live near RTP in NC, or Winston-Sallem, send me a resume.
Celebrate failure, and then learn from it - Nolan Bushnell
You mean ignoring American labor for cheap foreign nationals doesn't have anything to do with national origin?
unless they are going over seas to get someone claiming she was not qualified for the position, than she is also entitled. If you dont like it find work in your own country, or play by the rules.
When you cant win, ad hominem.
I know it's difficult for some to understand, but THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS "REVERSE" DISCRIMINATION. There is only discrimination, regardless if you are white, black, brown, male, female, or transgender.
blog
Qualified for == entitled to under H-1B rules.
now we need to go OSS in diesel cars
The thing is you can't bring in an H1-B visa person just because you want them, or feel like they are a "better fit" or any of that. You can only do it if you cannot find a qualified US candidate (citizen, permanent resident, etc). If you get an applicant that is qualified and wants the job, you have to take them over getting someone on a visa. You can't argue that they are overqualified, because you have to take them if they are qualified.
That's the whole deal with the H1-B visa program: It is supposed to be for jobs you can't fill locally, either because there is too much demand for that kind of worker, the skill set isn't around, whatever. You can't find a qualified candidate, so you get one on a visa.
H-1B rules are different. H-1B allows brining in foreign workers to fill the gap when Americans with the qualifications cannot be found. Assuming she is qualified and assuming she did apply for the job, then they have no basis to use H-1B to bring in the foreign worker.
More likely she is being discriminated against because she won't submit to a captive (stuck with the same employer and cannot complaint about horrible working conditions we so often see in H-1B situations).
Personally, I'd rather see an open system. But that also means the foreign workers who hold the H-1Bs can jump over to any employer they want (carrying a prorated debt to the company that paid for getting them the H-1B). So anyone that wants an open system needs to also allow this or it isn't really open.
now we need to go OSS in diesel cars
Maybe. Maybe not. Maybe it's discrimination by the employer that considers the "qualification" to be one who has a visa that ensures they cannot move along to a new employer for 6 years.
now we need to go OSS in diesel cars
I get about 3-6 emails a week from H1B shops offering me jobs in cities I do not live in. I've also expressed no interest in moving to those cities.
Really obvious "We couldn't find a US worker!!" scam.
Every nation manipulates their money against the dollar. Preventing that wouldn't work. Some do it blatantly, revaluing their currency every few years; some throw some whitewash on it and let it float in a narrow band; and some pretend it's purely market-driven. But taxes, duties, and currency purchases and sales can and do alter exchange rates, sometimes dramatically.
But yeah, the visa system needs an overhaul, like more documentation that there are no credible candidates stateside. I think it should include holding over the resumes of all who apply for a given period of time and notes on why they weren't qualified, with random audits. Failing an audit would automatically nullify all visas obtained by the company and block them from applying for new visas for a period of ten years.
I'm not opposed to there being visas, just them being abused.
You can never go home again... but I guess you can shop there.
I hope that the company gets nailed to the wall. I've been in a similar situation for the past four years. I hold multiple certifications including Oracle DBA, but prospective employers don't care about experience, skills or anything except how little they can pay. I've applied for jobs and been passed over for a less experienced H1B worker or some inexperienced trade school kid with an academic visa who doesn't want to go back home and is scrambling to get a green card. We need a law that says "Hire Americans first" with some stiff penalties. Or how about letting companies have as many H1B visas as they want with a yearly fee of $250,000 per H1B visa? And have a clause that overseas outsourcing firms have to pay a similar "labor import duty" per contract worker or employee that is doing work for US companies and the onshore company that has contracted the outsourcing firm has to pay a similar "outsourcing license fee".
Of course when we have Chinese companies doing work on military computer systems for the Pentagon and working on weapons systems as engineers and software developers it's kind of obvious that our leaders have their heads located where the sun never shines, it's nice and warm and the spine assumes a near circular shape. I'd bet that much of the development of the monitoring systems that are watching phone calls, comments on sites, blogs and emails went to Chinese, Pakistani or Indian workers under lucrative outsourcing contracts.
There's a much easier reform. Make it so the H1B worker can work for any employer.
H1Bs are abused because the worker can not seek a job elsewhere in the US. So let them. Pay for H1B workers will rise to be closer to US workers, but companies that really can't find a US worker could still import one.
Meesa most upset that my mooie mooie Gungan network engineering certification not gonna be good enough for a job in America. Meesa be thinking that I be back to working in Gungan call center taking orders for cheap shit coming soon.
The world's burning. Moped Jesus spotted on I50. Details at 11.
Cuz yachts don't buy themselves...
Shoes for Industry. Shoes for the Dead.
Infosys is basically a staffing company, a "middle man" if you will.
If an American company wants to hire an American worker, why would that American company go through an Indian "middle man?"
Of course Infosys hires mostly Indian workers, American employers don't have to go through an Indian staffing company to hire an American.
It's one thing when you have a niche job that requires a specific skillset by its very nature**
It's another thing entirely when the job is fairly common, but the 'home team' gets preference (c'mon... it's not like there's a big shortage of folks who can jockey a vSphere farm.)
** notice I didn't say a contrived-to-be-niche job, which is sadly how a lot of corps get around the H1-B thing.
Quo usque tandem abutere, Nimbus, patientia nostra?
It's great to see this kind of thing. I hope she wins, honestly. She's got an uphill battle ahead of her.
What a lot of people don't realize is that Wipro and Infosys buy influence in this country, that's how they've been able to game the system and get away with it for a long time?
Ultimately we need to restructure the H1-B system so that it allows companies to get the talent they need without all the middle-man broker approach and doesn't exploit workers from abroad and keep wages down and unemployment high in this country. We don't need to hire Kindergarten teachers on H1-B visas. http://www.myvisajobs.com/Visa-Sponsor/Fort-Worth-Independent/202267.htm
Really? Fort Worth ISD? Come on you can't find a qualified US resident to teach?
Also, the immigration reforms that seem largely stalled now have some things in it that are making H1-B mills a bit nervous, I say good!
Even in their own country, Wipro, Infosys et al are viewed as "Selling Indians abroad." So it'll be great to see how this case evolves.
http://articles.timesofindia.indiatimes.com/2013-04-23/outsourcing/38762361_1_h-1b-immigration-reform-indian-it
Take a look at the comments.
Harrison's Postulate - "For every action there is an equal and opposite criticism"
This will settle out of court and nobody will admit any wrongdoing at all. They will pay a small fine and go right back to doing what they have been doing.
Hell they just increased the number of visa allowed this year because 'no americans want these jobs' as debt slaves to large companies who maintain all control.
Bribes have been paid... er... lobbyists... nothing will change. status quo will continue.
Mark it well. The future is the same ol shit on this front. What's right and what's good for america doesn't enter into the equation.
Depending on its implications, it sounds like your "for the right guy" qualifier might be the problem. Maybe your corporate culture needs to learn to deal with people who aren't readily willing to be emotional tampons in order for your company to gain reliable access to more of that kind of intellect. Superbright people, rare as they are, rarely fit in those politically correct, passive aggressive, corporate drone square holes..
Sing the fucking national anthem while you orangutan-fuck their bank account until the last dollar flutters to the floor.
On the other hand there are plenty of second, some third or even fourth grade engineers still enchanted by USA. They still apply and they are the ones most slashdotters disdainfully make fun of as poor quality desi programmers.
I would not go back, no matter what pay they offer and how many cooks, drivers and maids I could afford over there. Once you get used to the clean water and clean air, and reliable electric grid, it is difficult to readjust. But next generation of me are not coming here. Sadly. It would benefit both USA and them. And those who are still willing to come damage USA and damage the reputation of all Indians, all for a fistful of dollars.
sed -e 's/Chuck Norris/Rajnikant/g' joke > fact
All lawyers and all doctors are in unions, dumbfuck.
While most will criticize her ego, ...
There's always a reason.
I get the opposite criticism from personal interview: I don't have enough 'self-confidence'. I think I'm humble but my opinion doesn't matter.
And above, someone is saying she wouldn't have to sue if she were good enough because she could just move on.
I find that IT/Development/software engineering is one of the most demeaning professions. When I was a developer, I was severely depressed. You what cured my depression? When I left the business.
So, do I still work with computers and program? Yep. But not in IT
Much of the blame goes with the hiring process and the hiring managers. When you constantly see hiring managers say "If you were good enough you'd have a job! If you are good enough it's your 'attitude'." or something. It's always something to kick you when you're down and they kick you when you're up - 'You are overqualified. You are too expensive."
They will always find something wrong with you. I once heard someone say show business is really hard because of the rejection. I said, "Oh, yeah! Try technology - especially IT &software engineering."
They beat you down and wonder why you have a 'bad attitude'.
They hire cheap off-shore people and have the nerve to say, "You can't get a job because you're no good."
So you know what? I hope this woman wins millions and millions of dollars, exposes the stupidity of the software/IT hiring process, and I hope that every hiring manager ends up with a miserable amount of mindless bureaucratic paper work just look at resumes.
I'm actually all for the home team advantage. If we are bleeding tech jobs in the US, then shut down the H1-Bs and save those jobs for Americans. If our startups are struggling because they can't find local talent, then increase the H1-Bs and let in the best talent the world has to offer. We benefit both ways. What we need to avoid is opening the flood gates on H1-Bs when American programmers are having trouble finding jobs, and also we need to avoid closing the flood gates on H1-Bs when American companies are struggling because they can't find the talent they need. Unfortunately, this is mostly a matter of politics, and you know how well that works...
Celebrate failure, and then learn from it - Nolan Bushnell
Where I am in Florida I see employers do this because they know with a +10% unemployment rate they can find someone who used to make $60,000 a year and is about to be divorced, repo man is taking the car tomorrow, and the bank let him know he has 2 weeks to pay up or be homeless, be thrilled to work for $14/hr with no benefits!!
It is a job!
I am hoping this will change but I was unfortunately in such a position (ok not with the bank), but I took a job at this pace and they wanted senior level output from 2 - 3 peoples worth and it sucked royally but I had to take it.
Now if everyone becomes that desperate then they can simply underpay and overwork whether American or not. FYI 50% of the employees were Indian. They are replacing them left and right to cut costs and I was an American willing to take an Indian job but I had to offer less money with no benefits. I just quit.
So with +100 resumes many employers simply do this as Americans now are willing to do this after your unemployment benefits are out.
http://saveie6.com/
If she could prove that there was opening for this position, and that she qualified, but nevertheless Infosys picked an indian developer, then her case has ground as the company broke the H1B requirements.
Though the H1B visa program requires that qualified Americans be hired first, the program does not provide a private right of action. This restriction can only be enforced by the government, not workers that have been discriminated against. Without a private right of action or government enforcement, the provision has no teeth. Not surprising, because we all know that the salary requirements for H1Bs (must be paid at 60th percentile or higher) are not enforced either.
Personally, I would be happy if they allowed H1B visas portable between employers. Being locked to one employer enabled abuse. These guys can't even be promoted because any change of job will reset their 6 year green card clock.
We need a better system that works for both visa holders and Americans seeking employment. The current system only benefits employers and attorneys.
This lawsuit is for a relatively generic IT position, not some specialized job opening that's difficult to fill. That is to say, just because H1-B is appropriate for your circumstance does not mean it isn't being widely abused elsewhere.
This lawsuit is about a job that is based in the US and so must follow US laws. The worker would not be relocating to India.
Pay 20% above the market rate and you will have no problem finding devs. Just saying..
Exactly this. The kind of person you're looking for is probably going to be outside the bounds socially. And if you're not willing to exchange how you THINK a person should dress or behave in exchange for their knowledge; then you're going to have some real issues.
The world I live in most traditional senior level employees are not done with jr level wages and benefits and require that degree and years of experience because with a +10 unemployement/underemployment rate they can. Supply and demand.
They can still hire H1B1 visa as high paid consultants too if you have +15 years experience and they do get paid a ton of money. I think Infosys would overlook a foreignor with that kind of experience as he would leave the job in a heartbeat.
Infosys customers use them because they are cheap. You do not need a chief either at a McDonalds. Just a line cook right? Same principle when cost and output is important. The data architect where she would be better qualified would the equivalent of a high end restaurant if you decide to use that analogy.
Age discrimination is bad too in this world and many slashotters feel this is more of a racism card. I think being over 40 is bad if you are not senior level or management material by then.
http://saveie6.com/
Granted, but this lawsuit still would have made more sense a couple of years ago. Right now, a reasonable programmer or IT professional who complains about not being able to find a job sounds like a whiner. Job numbers this week show we gained 200,000 jobs, but mostly low paying part-time positions. At the same time, the jobs most in demand right now may be web programmers, though we could use some algorithms geeks. It's not a good time to try and gain sympathy from a jury about the plight of programmers in America.
Celebrate failure, and then learn from it - Nolan Bushnell
Once again you live up to your handle - it's not about origin at all but instead current citizenship.
doesn't have to be 20%..10% with a better work environment can make quite a difference.
What is a better work environment ?
Flex time, comfortable clothing, not stuffing people in a 6x6 cube.
Sorry - I meant Infosys' home team (e.g. Indians).
Quo usque tandem abutere, Nimbus, patientia nostra?
Suitability includes price. If I were on a jury hearing this case, I'd toss it in a heartbeat.
-jcr
The only title of honor that a tyrant can grant is "Enemy of the State."
Nonsense. I've met some brilliant people and most of them have been quite socially adept. You don't have to put up with crappy behavior to get a great developer. Doesn't mean they are going to wear a 3 piece suit, but you can get an actual, reasonable human being that does great work.
Many filled the qualifications, but they weren't actually good enough to do the work.
Than your qualifications were not what you wanted for the job.
When you cant win, ad hominem.
err then...bah, shame on me for hitting submit without actually proofing.
When you cant win, ad hominem.
I think too many aren't aware of any "market rate". And they also don't truly appreciate having a talented developer on their payroll, which is why they would rather get one of few barely qualified employees and hope the dev does something right while getting paid 20% below market (or worse) than have to sift through a stack of resumes, pick out the most qualified applicants, take time to properly interview them, and make decisions that to them all seem like expenses with no return. And if not to whoever is doing the hiring, then to that person's superior.
tl;dr: it's my opinion that so many companies don't appreciate paying for or retaining a great development team.
This is different. Off shoring is sending jobs to India, where as this is paying people to come here to work instead of hiring people who can do the work who are here already. That the government can prevent, by stopping the visas
When you cant win, ad hominem.
One thing I noted in working with Infosys is that they require your high school graduation date.
Not evidence you graduated.
Not the year you graduated from college.
I'm sure they think they are being cute, but I hope that they get burned hard for it someday.
She was like chocolate when she drank... semi-sweet at first and then increasingly bitter.
For Infosys, Tata, et al, using as few US citizens and other permanent legal residents as possible is core to their business model. If the work isn't performed primarily in south Asia or in the US by south Asian nationals on a TDY, they lose their market advantage. They aren't yet in a position to broadly complete head-to-head on technical excellence. When then-Senator Clinton got Tata to open an office in NY State, it was with the understanding that if outsourcing was a fact of life, at least she could get some constituients employed at the customer interface. It appears that (at least) Infosys isn't onboard with that concept.
Bad news if you're not a web programmer. The economy still sucks if you didn't notice, non web programmers are still finding it hard to find new jobs and are holding onto the old ones if they have them. In most recent interviews I've been seeing a real decline in quality, and part of me suspects it is because those with real qualifications are sticking where they are.
The lawsuit may not go before a jury. But if it does I can see a good amount of sympathy in an American court room regarding a foreign company that hires almost no Americans to fill jobs located in America. No amount of "if she's qualified she can get a job anywhere" hand waving is going to erase that stain.
"Web programmer" that's pretty funny. Do you call secretaries "office document engineers" as well?
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Friends don't let friends enable ecmascript.
actually they are useless for most any work that requires results
and if they are childbearing age they are almost guaranteed to get pregnant at some point which will require an employer to give them 3 months off
and you have to deal with possible sexual harssement claims for real or imagined incidents
so yeah, why would anyone ever hire a woman?
Almost.
There's one other element required for discrimination: You have to have to power to discriminate. You have to have something that other people want and the power to withhold based on some category.
When I think about discrimination, I always ask myself, "would the person accused of discrimination want to trade places with the person doing the accusing?" It's not a perfect test, but it's illuminating more times than not. It's one reason why I always doubt claims of "reverse racism". How many white men would change places with a black woman, for example?
If you really want to see this in full effect, look up some of the people in the "Men's Rights" movement, and listen to the things they say.
You are welcome on my lawn.
But not to worry the conservative SCOTUS in conjuction with tort reform and a proper realignment of labor laws will soon put an end to that. We can't have individuals oppressing corporations because, after all, corporations are people. If workers want to be treated as people they shouldn't be workers. They should choose to be wealthy.
putting the 'B' in LGBTQ+
It's about time someone started calling out these companies for this crap. People keep telling their Congressional representatives the same thing, but all they hear are the corporations with big donation money. Maybe a few of these lawsuits will bring some attention to this obvious scam.
"Somebody has to do something. It's just incredibly pathetic it has to be us."
--- Jerry Garcia
Which 'one job' was this? Can you give details? Otherwise I can also make up a lot of stories.
Incorrect. They choose cheaper labor over more expensive labor. This is Business 101. No court in the land would rule for Plaintiff.
Fortunately for the plaintiff, they cannot use the "we wanted cheaper labor" defense, since they would then be subject to liability for falsely claiming that they could not find suitable local talent, the only justification for hiring using H1-B visas.
"Somebody has to do something. It's just incredibly pathetic it has to be us."
--- Jerry Garcia
I get what you're going for, but these days 'web programming' is a real thing. You can't just pick up a Javascript and HTML book anymore and do website work. You need to know PHP, JS, Ruby, SQL (flavor of choice) and ofher just to get started. This on top of being able to optimize for bandwidth in a similar way a 'hardcore' programmer would optimize memory usage. This aint your grandads internet.
I'd literally take 10% less for that. I'd also take extra vacation days at a double pro-rata cut.
If Infosys does lose this case, instead of heavier restrictions on H1Bs we'll find lobbyists (on behalf of tech companies) pushing for loser restrictions.
Infosys hires a lot of people in Mexico to get around NAFTA as well. You get as many Mexicans as Indians in some places.
I want to delete my account but Slashdot doesn't allow it.
This isn't about being white or race in general, it's about domestic labor versus imported labor.
They could have hired British H1B workers and it would be just as illegal.
While that's true, that's not what the lawsuit claims. According to TFA, she is claiming discrimination, and it even mentions the Civil Rights Act, although the article does mention that the lawsuit mention that they are abusing H-1B visas, probably to set the stage for the motivation behind the discrimination. My guess is that if it's discrimination, then the plaintiff (and of course her lawyers) can sue for damages. If it's a violation of H-1B law, then it's probably up to the government to deal with it, which will depend of course on the lobbying power and campaign contributions of Infosys and its ilk.
Of course, now they'll probably just change all of their job requirements to include fluency in Hindi with the excuse that all employees need to be able to communication with their counterparts in India.
but the degree does not prove much in IT and it can be discriminating on people who learn better doing work hands on.
I know you probably meant "looser restrictions," but I find "loser restrictions" far more accurate.
Good, inexpensive web hosting
Yo butt wipe, that is exactly what it means in this case.
I see this crap every day where I work. I know kids at Oregon State that have just graduated. They rarely get a call back at the company I work for. Instead we get stacks of grad resumes from out of state universities for Indians. Most of them have a undergrad degree from somewhere in India which they had to pay NOTHING for. They come here, and yes pay out of state tuition, but that is still heavily subsidized by governments here.
Why in hells sake are we not charging them the real cost of their education after they paid nothing for the first part and reducing the cost to actual, yes actual, citizens.
If Wisconsin were not a bit out of the way here I would go to the court house on the days and protest against Infosys, their like and the companies who use them.
She would meet the eligibility requirements if an Indian company hired her, Infosys is an Indian company, ergo if she was hired, she would be eligible to work in India.
I don't know about India, but I know China is pretty reasonable about work visas. A bachelor degree, two years work experience in one's home country and a salary offer equal or above an equivalent Chinese professional is enough.
When Argumentum ad Hominem falls short, try Argumentum ad Matrem
Exactly. They could have not liked her attitude at the interview, the color of her shoes, the way she said "Hi, I'm here for the interview", or a million other things.
We do know it probably came down to dollars. She wanted Y, they were willing to pay B. No company or organization is required to hire the best candidate. They're only not allowed to discriminate on the list.
I've been not hired before, because when they finally let loose with a number, it was insulting. Not the "I'm worth a million, I'll settle for $200k". It was $20/yr, no benefits. I don't know why they even bothered offering it. After a few in that ballpark, from companies who couldn't afford ... well ... anything, I start off the conversation with "what's your budget, so I'll know if we should even continue the conversation."
From the article, "High-tech companies claim they can't find Americans to fill U.S jobs, when, in fact, they are rejecting talented Americans..."
Of course they are. Why give her a 6 figure salary, when you can get someone at a weak 5 figures?
Serious? Seriousness is well above my pay grade.
Except that price wouldn't qualify an H1-B visa, for instance. H1-Bs are only supposed to be for positions that can't be filled at home due to certain skill sets being scarce, it should have little to nothing to do with the amount you have to pay (as long as that pay is realistic). You don't get to bring on an Asian foreign national just because you want to pay peanuts. In that case, suitability does *not* include price. That test would only work if you're talking about two citizens or at least, two people who don't need a special skills needed visa to work in the US.
The beauty is that we do all the work for them just by being our usual elitist snobby selves. I'm not sure how many people have been sent packing just because they don't know some piece of jargon or aren't familiar with the latest trends in some relatively ephemeral technological zeitgeist, in the hopes that Candidate will immediately become useful within the first week of employment.
Being a "VMWare/Windows Administrator" strikes me as relatively irrelevant compared to MS IT + 17 years, which should be enough to suggest that this person is competent in her field, and can learn to administrate just about anything, if she's motivated. But I'm sure if she doesn't know in the interview how to optimally configure a redundant VMware server, she's hopelessly lost... I mean that's like rocket science right there. Or something. We're not hiring people, we're hiring wikipedia pages, and due to all the jargon and groupthink, mostly vandalized wikipedia pages.
I'm not sure how this person plans to prove discrimination, I have no doubt (having been on interviews designed to hire H1Bs), that she was thrown into a ringer designed to make her look inferior to someone who got the questions ahead of time, and did the research ahead of time. The irony is that I've survived these interviews, fielding questions from database design to maxwell's equations applied to PCB designs, but the ultimate trump card is suddenly the job you're interviewing for is suddenly a more junior position, and suddenly the pay is less than what the job description might IMPLY (no salaries/grades given!). Then of course you say no and they hire the H1B anyway, because the qualified American wasn't interested. There's no winning. These people SHOULD be sued, I just lack the faith that they'll get what they deserve.
It's in the court documents, which are linked from TFA. http://www.pbclaw.com/2013/08/02/proposed-class-action-complaint-filed-against-infosys-for-failure-to-hire-national-origin-discrimination/
D. Particular Instances of Discrimination
69. Numerous instances of discriminatory intent have come to light.
70. While working on the assignment at Vinings, Georgia in December 2008, Infosys employee-whistleblower Jay Palmer claims that another Infosys employee wrote “Americans cost $,” and “No Americans/Christians” on a whiteboard.
71. Palmer claims that he received a couple of telephone calls in which the caller asked, “Why are you doing this, you stupid American, we have been good to you.” While Palmer does not know who made these calls, they came after he began to complain about Infosys’s misuse of the visa system.
72. On February 28, 2011, while Palmer was working on a project in Alpharetta,Georgia, he claims that he found a typewritten note on his keyboard, and a Word document on his computer, both of which stated, “Just leave your [sic] not wanted here hope your journey brings you death stupid american.”
73. On April 21, 2011, Palmer claims that he received an e-mail on his personal e-mail account stating, “if you make cause for us to sent [sic] back to india [sic] we will destroy you and your family.
74. Palmer claims that he was called a stupid American on one occasion by two Infosys employees.
75. Mr. Palmer brought these issues to the attention of Infosys, but Infosys did nottake significant steps to investigate or prevent future issues
76. During Mr. Palmer’s lawsuit, another employee also testified that Americans generally were made to feel unwelcome at Infosys.
You won't get that job. The H1 Employer will write the ad so that only his potential hire can pass it. I need a person who speaks creole and yiddish, with a degree in fine arts and electrical engineering. Must be able to program in Fortran and java, in cantonese.
When the Employer goes back to INS to prove the job they wrote the definition for cannot be filled except by the H1, the circle is closed.
Oh, and you OWN the H1...you'll never get that with a normal employee.
Attorney who used to write those ads.....
How many white men would change places with a black woman, for example?
In what context?
I think many people wouldn't mind a pay rise. Same job, same work, different pay because one is female.
Just because you have a penis or vagina shouldn't affect your pay rate. Feminism is the art of preaching superiority under the guise of egalitarianism.
How many white men would change places with a black woman, for example?
Depends on who the black woman is. If it's Oprah, with her vast wealth and media presence, the choice is somewhat easier than if the black woman is a welfare recipient living in public housing with six kids from six different fathers.
It's not always about race, gender, etc. Oprah is a black female who made something of herself instead of suckling off the government teat.
In the end they will lay their freedom at our feet and say to us, Make us your slaves, but feed us. - Fyodor Dostoyevsky
I was thinking the same thing. A uber-geek could work from home on algorithms and such, and not need to be local. I mostly do that where I am now, but in a non-programming setting.
Learn to love Alaska
Frankly, you're either grossly uneducated, or a troll. Either way you're showing your ignorance.
Just because you might know a little C or ASM does not give you the right to sneer at talented developers who chose different platforms. Go here and tell me these people aren't "real programmers": http://www.chromeexperiments.com/
Guess what: I code in C and asm, I hand solder my own boards. I write cross platform drivers for Windows and Mac. I'm reasonably proficient in probably every language you've ever heard of, from Clipper to RPG (on the AS400) to Java and .Net and I've been doing it for about 17 years now professionally, longer as a hobby. And you know what? I choose to spend 90% of my current development time in Javascript, both in the browser and in NodeJS.
Hopefully one day, if I work really hard and keep trying, maybe I can be considered a "programmer" in your book.
Drinking habits can be dangerous. You can choke on the cloth and the nuns will wonder where their clothes are.
Given this climate what choice do we have but to drop wages in the US radically? And that would mean the cost of everything would have to come down to indian standards.
I don't think the legislators have really thought this one through.
The US is going to become a third world country if we don't get some kind of traction.
I've decided to stop wasting my time responding to AC trolls/sockpuppets... so if you want a response from me... login.
There may be losers out there, but nothing keeps you from testing them ahead of time to prove they can do the work.
The law requires you to take citizen applicants seriously before you get guest workers. You can't just throw up your hands and assume that they are lying on their resumes.
And yes, there *are* positions that you need guest workers for. No one is going to argue with that, but I'm sorry, they're hiring H1-Bs for grunt tasks, not specialized work. There are definitely unemployed developers in the country who can do that work. No question at all.
While the cited article says they will be receiving a higher Superannuation contribution from their employer (and this is frequently calculated as part of the total package when quoting salary), no where does it say that their take home salary is being increased. On average, women are still paid less if in the same role doing the same tasks as a man, therefore it is highly probable that even including the bump in Super, these women are still receiving the same or less than their male counterparts.
Sara
Designer, Gamer, Macgrrl in an XP World
Sapient hired about 2,000 staff in India last year too. The Boston-based company has 65% of its total workforce of more than 10,100 based in India.
"About 35% of our people are hired locally [in markets the company operates]," Mr. Endow said. "That's a very healthy mix."
However: Sapient has only about 1,500 US employees, and at least one-third to one-half of those are here b/c of visa sponsorship. (Consider that an H1-B lasts for 3 years -- extendable up to 6 -- and 2013 isn't even over, yet.) So:
Not just you. Our management quickly found out that techs are actually more interested in some "work perks" than money. And I guess it pays off. We have pretty much everything the GP asks for (and a few more job perks like free lunches (provided you're here at noon, which isn't really a given considering our VERY flexible time schedules), free sodas, a dress code that basically consists of "please, at least cover your privates somehow, if it doesn't bother you too much" (I'm sitting here in shorts and t-shirt, but I have a suit around for those "just in case" moments, some customers kinda expect that from management, no idea why) and a few more less important things.
The pay is sub-par, though. Still, we have no problem hiring or keeping our staff. We also have a pretty impressive productivity level despite (I'd rather say because) we don't expect our techs to sit around when they're essentially still asleep. Free lunch in house means everyone's always around in case of an emergency (and yes, it does happen at times that your lunch break is cut short), and some simply eat at their desk to read some info while eating, which they'd probably do in their "working" hours instead. The flex time schedule means we have staff on site nearly around the clock without having to pay overtime for it (seriously, one guy comes in around 3pm but stays past midnight, which would not only be prohibitively expensive under normal circumstances, you also couldn't "force" someone to work those hours under our work laws), it IS kinda empty, though, at 8am. :)
Essentially, what this means to us is that our salary levels are quite a bit below industry standard, we still do not get the "bottom of the barrel, can't get work elsewhere" idiots (quite far from it, actually), we actually have quite dedicated people who like their jobs and who really want to keep it, who willingly work "odd" hours, actually they're zealously guarding their "timeslot" where others would ask for higher wages just to think about working those times, and so on.
I think what matters is that you simply use what people want naturally. If you FORCE people to work during evenings, they'll probably give you the finger. Offer them to choose their times and you'll be surprised how easily they do it willingly.
We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
At our company we learned that money isn't the most powerful motivator. Quite far from it. Job perks is where the money is at, so to speak.
We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
> Personally, I'd rather see an open system. [...] a prorated debt to to the company that paid for getting them the H-1B
If the system were truly "open," the companies wouldn't pay any fee for an H1-B, at all.
If American companies are paying these IT companies for IT services they have equal responsibility too. American companies which want to cut cost really won't care whether a H1B worker does the work or someone else does. If American companies don't care about American citizens and are only interested in increasing their profits by awarding IT contracts to H1B abusers who is to be blamed?
Consider a situation where American companies say a clear no to H1B abusers. Which company would be willing to do and increase their costs?
On the one hand cutting IT costs are a requirement and on the other hiring American employees more expensive than H1B employees are a requirement. There are so many banks, insurance companies hiring H1B employees, if they want they have a choice to hire 100% American employees. Why can't these companies do their fair role and stop H1B abuse?
If, by national origin you mean, "wages at which you receive commensurate service" then you're correct. But you do not mean that. So you're not. If you can achieve a similar result at a lower cost, your customers win. That's business. Start your own if you're feeling victimized. If 85% of businesses fail, that means you only have to do it 6 times before you're a winner. And if you fail, yes, it is your fault. Try again.
Speak for yourself.
Except that you have to hire 4-6 offshore to do the job of one onshore. Skill levels, ability to manage technical complications, lost cycles when there are data or server issues, it never works out for companies and I don't understand why they keep doing it. It looks good on paper but the gains never gets realized.
If you are doing military work, you probably have to worry about ITAR (international trade in arms regulations) which is a LOT cheaper to handle if you don't hire foreigners. This is not to say anything about the competency of foreign workers, it just means you have to jump through the government hoops, which in the case of ITAR means avoiding having to set up a 100% separate network where foreign nationals must have independently trackable/restrict-able access. If you want someone to blame for this inconvenience and inefficiency, look no further than your helpful government.
Speak for yourself.
Skilled H1B workers will always have jobs, but corps like infosys are just looking for warm bodies and headcount.
The companies that hire Infosys require a certain number of H1B workers. How is that legal? They mandate ratios, such as 4 H1Bs to one non. It's obviously not about talent, it's 100% about driving wages down.
I have been watching this happen in Silicon Valley and other tech regions for years. It's an abomination and it's about time that it stop! I have seen L-1 visa holders from India who are here for "university studies", go to a place like Heald College for six months, come on board as *full-time* employees, with benefits (while professional non-Asian-Indian American IT professionals *with experience* were hired on as contractors). THen, I watched as the full time Americans with rock-solid skills got riffed after training the L-1 visa holder who didn't know jack, and *still* didn't know jack after a long training period.
I have seen these H1-B, L-1 and several other visa holders come to work on the first day and start hugging and chumming around with senior Asian-Indian supervisors who were their *relatives or friends* from back home.
I have watched as Asian Indian supervisors treat their American (and Indian) subordinates like chattel, not to mention looking right through female employees.
I have seen Asian Indian "consulting" groups establish domestic US connections so that their workers can claim "experience with a US company for 1 year", thus enabling the visa holder to emigrate to America.
I have listened to the likes of Bill Gates, John Chambers, Mark Zuckerberg, and many others LIE about the shortage of qualified American IT workers.
I have talked to DOZENS of IT peers who have been out of work for more than a year because every time they aplpy for a position thety are talking to guess who? - an East-Asian-Indian recruiter who can't speak clear English, does not have a clue about what the requirements are for the position, and spouts nonsense from the their doctored RPF's that list skills like "must know C++ and Ruby" for a BASIC QA position. Are you kidding me?
Now, our corporate overlords and these corrupt Indian companies (including the Indian government, whose corrupt officials are on the take from American corporations) want an increase in the H1-B quotas that would double those quotas AND let the spouses of these mostly UNQUALIFIED H1-Bs get an immediate right to work in America (which has not been possible by current rules). Are you kidding me.
The entire Hi-B whine is a SCAM, and a LIE, and a TRAITOROUS double-cross of the American IT worker, and other workers who would LOVE to have the same opportunity as an L-1 worker who doesn't know crap, and still won't know crap after s/he's trained.
Last, outside of IIT (Indian Institute of Technology) why don't we hear about the PATHETIC level of instruction and talent that comes out of most of India's other universities, where professors don't even show up, and make their real $$$ arranging private tutorials with students that can afford to pay for private lessons. Why? Because the immoral, corrupt leaches that run the Indian government don't give a rat's ass about their own people, just like the corrupt, immoral leaches in the American government.
With less hours comes less pay, and with year or longer interruptions from work along with other responsibilities comes delayed progression.
Women on average are paid more than men until about the time the majority of them have children.
Should we punish men for doing more overtime by claiming they are unfairly getting more money for having the gall to work longer hours?
Not to mention in the part time and casual areas women on average get far more money than men, what are we doing about that?
well to import a foreign national don't they in usa need to prove/lie that they couldn't find a qualified local.. and nationality isn't a valid qualification in that sense.
world was created 5 seconds before this post as it is.
I'm sorry, but when I hear "so-and-so's overqualified and more experienced and therefore more expensive" I really have to wonder how this becomes such a common topic in hiring conversations.
Certainly, some positions require a great deal of negotiation for both parties to arrive at a price - but most jobs really don't work that way at all, do they?
No, most jobs have a static pay rate or relatively fixed contract budget and either you accept what they offer, or you move on.
Same for the other side of the table - do most managers really have the authority to grossly overspend on talent? Really? "Spent too much on that guy, $50K to script batch processes at 3rd shift at a colo, and he just isn't innovating... That's what I get for hiring a college graduate... "
If you are looking for the best, you spend and take that risk, if not, you make a reasonable offer and if they counter too high, you say, "this is what the position pays, do you want it or not?"
At some businesses, you start as a temp, no matter what your experience. At a Big NYC Agency, you start in the mail room, even if you've passed the bar exam in 2 states. Given that this model is successful for some very successful firms, maybe businesses that "overpay for talent" are really just overpaying too many middle-managers or doing a piss-poor job of recruiting. Or, maybe it's a complaint without any merit at all, designed to create a chilling effect on an aging workforce to get them to give up things like benefits
There is such a thing as reverse discrimination, but this is not it. Reverse discrimination is when quotas are imposed to counteract discrimination that is known to be occurring.
She would meet the eligibility requirements if an Indian company hired her, Infosys is an Indian company, ergo if she was hired, she would be eligible to work in India.
Wrong. The job in question was a job placement, and doesn't meet the criteria. I specifically linked to the list of criteria, and the job she was going for doesn't qualify, and the job is a placement in the U.S., not a remote work job anyway.
I think you misunderstand the article you are quoting.
Because women have demonstrably been paid less for the same work historically, they are being granted a higher rate of superannuation after they retire to make up for the shortfall in retirement savings this has caused.
Ultimately, the companies that hire Infosys should pay for this outrageous behavior. What other strategy will yield the fastest end to this degradation of American workers? ...or even, put a stop to the entire H1B visa abomination? Here's a list of Infosys Clients.
Pick one at random. How about: Kellogg's? (They have such a homey, "All-American" brand image, don't they?)
Make them pay: Shame them, give them bad publicity, DESTROY THEIR BRAND -- do anything legal & necessary to make them drop Infosys as a vendor, permanently.
Yes, there are supposed to be legal requirements to using H1B visas. There might be some question of whether a US worker has standing to sue based on abuse of H1B visas for jobs they applied for, but could be. I don't care how the case turns out as much as seeing the results of discovery.
you are right on the spot. I have been replaced by incompetent junior IT personnel from Tata Consultancy (same kind of shop as Infosys) at a large nationalised bank in the EU. They don't care about what you can or cannot do. They don't even care about the hourly rate. They only care about executing their contracts; which means flying in as many junior IT people as possible to replace locals. The bank still pays about the same rate, the difference is that the newly hired people are crammed in to little houses (6-8 persons per house), they have to cook their own lunch because they cannot afford the company restaurant, and are generally unfit for working in western culture. Then after 6-12 months when the visa expires they replace the team with a fresh batch of juniors and the cycle begins once again. The management layer sucks up the difference between paid rate and paid salary, which is huge. It all smells like corruption and discrimination but being an independent contractor I don't have any solid ground for legal action. However, I am still in touch with some of the remaining staff and I have been informed that the whole IT ecosystem is becoming such an amateurish mess that they are already reconsidering. Too late in my opinion.
I think you didn't read the article
''It's one of the reasons women are more likely to live in poverty in their twilight years, because of the gap in retirement savings,'' Ms Broderick told BusinessDay. ''One of the largest contributions is women's unpaid caring work.''
This has nothing to do about history, this has to do with women doing different unpaid/lesser paying work and winding up with less money at the end of the day, if you take a _different_ lesser valued job or _less_ hours you will get less pay, this is life.
If you go by the same profession, the same uninterrupted (single, no children) time of progression and the same number of hours if hourly, women are actually doing better than men in many regards.
The 'solution' to men getting paid more for overtime/more dedication to the job by ignoring family shouldn't be to just raise womens pay just because they have different life priorities, not putting working yourself to death as one of them.
You can be perfectly socially adept but simply revolted by the hypocrisy and dishonesty required in many organizations. As a species, developers are just less willing to go with the herd and spout bullshit they don't believe.
They didn't make an offer. She didn't turn it down for lack of pay. H1-Bs must be paid market wage. You are wrong on all counts.
Learn to love Alaska
She likely has no standing to file an H1-B abuse case. But she has standing to file for discrimination. She can't share things learned in discovery, but if they are pertinent to the case, she can reveal them in open court. Once on the public record, if they show H1-B abuse, the government will "have to" act.
Learn to love Alaska
Just because you have a penis or vagina shouldn't affect your pay rate.
Yet, in practice, it does. So the law is trying to balance the underpaying reality.
Learn to love Alaska
We all know, unless you have a secret recording from the interview, some stupid employer representative says things that is not so kosher, it is impossible to prove discrimination. But, does it really mean that her lawsuit is baseless ? We, including all the competent and mostly incompetent IT workers from India, know that, infosys, tata and wipro are only functional and operational in USA, because they know how to rig and play the system. And the corrupt US politicians who in the pockets of facebooks and micro$ofts are fanning the fire by providing higher number of H1B quotas.
Do you know the latest game infosys a-holes play ? I have been a victim of this ploy. First off they use third party, pond-scum Indian operated recruiters to make their bids, so nothing sticks to them. I am not sure how this lady got into talks with these people at infosys, directly. But anyway, infosys runs the support shop for Cisco Systems and they were looking for a UNIX heavy guy with some TCP/IP networking knowledge and they found me through some site, where I posted my resume. FIrst off the bat, they low-balled the initial offer for working in San Jose. They offered me something like 10% less money than, what I was making at my last position in Southern Cali. which is another 20-some percent cheaper to live compared to the bay area. But, considering it is better than living on an unemployment check, I agreed to interview. After about 3 or 4 botched calls by them, I had the *pleasure* of talking to an infosys employee, calling me from India, for about 30 minutes, who did the *technical* interview to judge my UNIX expertise level with few easy questions, which, someone who installed linux and played with it for a couple of days can answer. Then I got a call back from the secondary, pond-scum agency, telling me that, I past my tech-screen with flying colors. No-shit-Sherlock... I have been a UNIX sysadmin for more than 20 years and he read a book about it ?? Anyway, they wanted to offer me the position but, the BIG BUT, infosys renegotiated the rate and they have to scale back the already low hourly rate by another 15%. At that point, I told the guy to go pound sand. And I am sure, for the money they were thinking about paying, they hired an indian UNIX sysadmin, who didn't mind sharing an apartment with 5 or more others like himself.
Maybe, just maybe, we the American IT workers should play their game and force these three clown companies from india, by filing lawsuit after lawsuit, even if it is going to be rejected. The problem is, we do not have the deep pockets. Maybe organizations like groklaw and EFF should consider mounting such a campaign. Operating on the outskirts of the law, doesn't necessarily mean that, they have the right to rape the American IT sector.
__________
The more I know people, the more I love animals
I'm not sure how this person plans to prove discrimination, I have no doubt (having been on interviews designed to hire H1Bs), that she was thrown into a ringer designed to make her look inferior to someone who got the questions ahead of time, and did the research ahead of time. The irony is that I've survived these interviews, fielding questions from database design to maxwell's equations applied to PCB designs, but the ultimate trump card is suddenly the job you're interviewing for is suddenly a more junior position, and suddenly the pay is less than what the job description might IMPLY (no salaries/grades given!). Then of course you say no and they hire the H1B anyway, because the qualified American wasn't interested. There's no winning. These people SHOULD be sued, I just lack the faith that they'll get what they deserve.
I'm suspecting that she's not expecting to win her case, but instead forcing them to defend their H1-B choice over her in a way that proves H1-B abuse. She won't win her case, but may serve up the government with an easy win, depending on their defense.
Learn to love Alaska
Different jobs get different pay. Even within the same job at the same pay rate men typically earn more through *gasp* overtime.
Once you factor in hours worked and breaks from work for children/other things, a lot of women are doing better than a lot of men.
In fact part time/casual women workers on average make more than their men counterparts, but I don't see anyone trying to fix that 'inequality'.
You don't fix unfair discrimination by introducing more unfair discrimination.
You don't fix unfair discrimination by introducing more unfair discrimination.
Yes, yes you do. Statistically, women are disadvantaged. So you exert legal pressure to right the wrong. It's better than doing nothing.
Learn to love Alaska
An easy way for Infosys to get away without legal trouble would have been to add "speaks fluent Hindi" to the job description.
That way they could reasonably argue that they found no suitable candidate in the US.
If it can be proven however that they regularly pass over US citizens for the sole reason that H1B workers are the more cost effective option, they're probably going to be facing a slap on the wrist and some political posturing at the very least.
FTFY
blindly antisocialist = antisocial
My company recently adopted a no H1-B visa policy because we're doing a bit of military work, or so I assume (they really don't tell me anything). We've had a rec open for a hot-shot algorithms geek since January, and trust me, the applicants are not beating a path to our door. This is a fantastic job for the right guy, and it kills me that we're having trouble finding someone to fill it.
The last super-algorithms programmer we hired was from IIT Madras. He's amazing. Before that, we hired an equally amazing white guy right out of college with a BS degree. Good talent is hard to find right now, which is why I think this class action lawsuit is doomed. Maybe it could have gotten some traction in 2010.
Shameless plug: if you're a super-geek, work well with others (so many of us don't), and live near RTP in NC, or Winston-Sallem, send me a resume.
Even if you're right and good talent is hard to find (without going into particulars like what companies are willing to pay based on 'market rates'), it doesn't mean that Infosys specifically is innocent of wrongdoing. Assuming this woman and others like her can document that they were refused positions they were qualified for in favor of non American workers they might just win.
blindly antisocialist = antisocial
By what standard disadvantaged? For someone who cares about family the typical woman has things a lot better than the typical man who wants to be able to spend as much time as possible with the children.
I'm hesitant to consider "different life priorities result in different outcomes" as disadvantage.
I'm also hesitant to consider "overall x earns more than y, so lets make their wages even" fair when the jobs can be completely different.
Next thing you know people will start saying "Bankers earn more than McDonalds employees, lets fix the wage inequality by treating them the same"
Or "hey, that guy that took two years off to look after his kids, lets promote him over this other guy who's pretty much the same but stayed the duration"
Different jobs, different hours, and different life priorities end up with different results.
This "I am a victim" culture needs to stop. People should be treated only by criteria relevant to the task. Affirmative action is akin to an eye for an eye.
You are right only if they made her an offer she refused by demanding more than market pay. They didn't make her an offer, so how do they know she wouldn't work for their desired fee? They don't. They rejected her without proper legal consideration. They broke the law.
You also have to define the 'market' in 'market pay' as the global market pays less than the domestic market.
blindly antisocialist = antisocial
It sounds to me like you're pretty much arguing that the work visa a a really cool business model. WHEN IT'S BEING USED CORRECTLY.
My "saga":I have a few years ago worked for a very large American company. And in my country, admittedly, there are about 50 times the number of IT jobs available compared to the amount of unemployed IT people (Bachelor degree equivalent or higher education).
this puts (and still does) a higher price on talent. And i've benefitted from that, certainly. I wont deny that. But I've ALSO been taking paycuts to finance improving working conditions, re-educating obsolete talent and a few other things.
So I was appauled when I found out that MY company, whom I had worked for for over 10 years, had started, not only "importing" foreign labor, but underpaying them, AND lying about it to the government (otherwise they couldn't get a visa, if the salary officially wasn't high enough), AND forcing the hirees to pay a "deposit" of roughly 2 years salary, payable to the company should the hirees, for ANY REASON be dismissed from their work within the first 2 years of their employment. downright blackmail.... They underpaid, they lied and cheated the government and their own employees. I immediately handed in my resignation and found a new job. Sure the new place didn't have the benefits I had fought for over the last 10 years, but at least the new place was honest about it.
And the new place also hired foreign talent, but did it according to the rules, and only because staffing was a pain, and took forever.
Bottom line: There are liars and cheats out there who will do anything for a buck, but there are also businesses who will act morally, legally and ethically correct. The trick is to be able to tell them apart. And I believe that if the OOP is in the a situation where someone else was hired under the rules, at his/her expense, then that's just tough luck. If that person was hired, bending the rules, then it's abuse of power, not discrimination. I see many problems with this type of hiring, but I do not see a discrimination suit being won...
--- To err is human... Am I more human than most ?
I know it's difficult for some to understand, but THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS "REVERSE" DISCRIMINATION. There is only discrimination, regardless if you are white, black, brown, male, female, or transgender.
Reverse discrimination is useful in discussion as it is not the same concept as general discrimination.
Reverse discrimination is specifically the majority group that is being discriminated against.
For example, in the US there is social acceptance of the United Negro College Fund but not for the United Caucasian College Fund.
blindly antisocialist = antisocial
I am curious what would have happened if Infosys said "Ok Brenda. You are clearly qualified. We pay 50K/year for this position. Do you want it?". She says no and declines job and they go and hire the Bangladeshi. What are the legal ramifications at this point? Essentially, can the "US worker" demand as much money as he/she want (up to a worker set industrial average that ignores global competition in the current market) and say you MUST pay me this - not what you want to pay?
I took a $2,000 a year pay cut for a better work environment. I probably would have taken a more.
There is no "-1 offended" or "-1 you don't agree with me" mod options for a reason.
Since you are so closely following the state of our country and able to call it a hell hole, I have a feeling that, you have some bitterness ? Should I dare say, you got passed for a one too many job applications here in the hell-hole ??
People in glass houses, should use stones very sparingly.
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The more I know people, the more I love animals
Infosys cares about one qualification only - Will you work for less than minimum wage?
That seems to be the extent of their hiring process. I know because I've seen the code they produce.
I don't believe any male racist exists that would choose to become Oprah Winfrey unless he already had gender issues.
You are welcome on my lawn.
This is Infosys. 'Average or below' is right where they are. More likely she was overqualified and they thought that might make her a troublemaker.
This is a global market. Companies want to make money. Apparently 'completely unqualified' H1B workers are worth their money. Perhaps American IT workers are simply hugely overpaid.
The plaintiff doesn't have to do anything of the sort. The plaintiff doesn't even have to prove that she is more qualified than the person they ultimately hired, merely that she was qualified for the position. H1B and the like require you to hire locally if possible first.
Interesting. So if she asked for pay of a million dollars they don't have to employ her, but they can't apply for H1B visas for that position either?
Yes, the burden of "proof" is on the plaintiff, however that burden is only to show that the "Preponderance of evidence" is enough that the defendant likely did what was claimed. In other words, was it more than 50%, which is one of the crappy things that can happen to you if you get sued. You could be completely innocent, and yet because the odds were most likely against your position, you get screwed.
Disclaimer, IANAL, and I didn't sleep at a Holiday Inn last night.
Just another day in Paradise
Are you quite sure that doesn't just undermine women more?
Giving someone an unfair advantage is a clear sign that you believe they are less capable.
Reverse discrimination is just discrimination with a side ordrer of vengence. It's no less sick than regular discrimination just more socially acceptable.
If you just call racism racism and sexism sexism at least people will know what you are talking about.
Many companies have never had a great development team. Two reasons: they're unwilling to pay for it and never hired managers who can identify great developers. Management is the primary issue, a competent manager could convince a company to "risk" the cost of quality developers for a period, they pay for themselves pretty quickly (especially if they are good socially and can learn the business side quickly). I've seen many managers who don't understand what a quality developer is (probably because they were mediocre themselves when it came to development and went into management because it was an easier path - and pays better...).
BlameBillCosby.com
It's not a matter of sneering or putting anyone down, it's a matter of words having meanings.
Programming is creating programs. Web pages are not programs. They are documents. (And the harder they try to be programs instead, the less accurate it is to speak of them as web pages.) Now web programming *could* mean something, if you were speaking about developing Apache, or Firefox, or something of that nature, but I am pretty sure that is not what was being referenced, and I dont think those people would appreciate being referred to in that way if it was.
But using programs already written, creating and distributing documents and images and data files of all sorts in particular, is not programming. That doesnt mean it isnt a worthwhile activity - quite the contrary! If you are reading a value judgement here it is entirely you. Creating and maintaining websites and infrastructure is a very worthwhile pursuit. But that doesnt make it "programming."
For a lot of people "programming" is what they call it when anyone uses a computer in a way that is over their head. Generally the same people that cannot figure out how to find their start button without help. They should not be allowed to redefine our language.
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You've brought back memories of my youth, and occasional partners I've worked with., and of the entire academic research community. You can do a great deal of fascinating and useful work with such loose social standards. It doesn't always scale well: Tasks that need to be done absolutely correct, and absolutely consistently, for reliability, for scientific publication, o for human safety, or just for inventory control can wind up a bit slapdash. And a major difficulty can be _keeping_ anyone more than 10 years, especially the senior people with spouses or kids to raise.
But I agree that workplace comfort, both physical and social, can keep great people at much lower rates than industry standards. That's why I stay where I am: I would be _very_ expensive on the open market, but relish the changes and the great people I work with, and the chance to train others.
a sequence of coded instructions that can be inserted into a mechanism (as a computer)? http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/program
That is one of the definitions of a program
But using programs already written, creating and distributing documents and images and data files of all sorts in particular, is not programming.
That is not web programming, that is copying and pasting, and every level of programming has it..Writing complex javascript, vbscript and other languages are still programming whether you believe it is below you or not, because it falls squarely within the definition of creating a program
When you cant win, ad hominem.
And you would be using your own bias directly against the law. Pay is not something you can consider when going for H1Bs, in fact you are required to pay them the USA market rate.
When you cant win, ad hominem.
"Web programming" does not mean restricting yourself simply just creating HTML documents, which, I'd have to agree, is not programming.
The web part really is just what faces the user, and even that is these days often a small application. The stuff I "web-program" currently is 95% in the back-end though, and that stuff has its own challenges.
I want to play Free Market with a drowning Libertarian.
Does not matter. It, according to the law, has to be US market pay.
When you cant win, ad hominem.
Even still, on the fallacy that it may be required, section one satisfied for the Indian visa the moment she is hired.
When you cant win, ad hominem.
But now you are changing the discussion. It was how many white males, not how many white male racists.
When you cant win, ad hominem.
And it is used as a way to mock, and deny those people for making those claims
When you cant win, ad hominem.
That's a dishonest way of saying we're all equal. Even communists don't say that: Communism says individuals must sacrifice their advantage to benefit others, which individuals don't want to do so the result is a race to the bottom. People get better jobs because they've got better education/experience/talent/parents/sex appeal/psychopathic traits.
There is nothing dishonest about it, and it does not even say we are all equal, but we must all be treated as though we are equal on the grounds of certian classes (race, religion, origin). Your argument is the dishonest one trying to redefine a term.
Oh, yes there is: Discrimination is treating someone differently because they're a minority. Treating someone differently because she's not in the minority group is not mere discrimination: It's reverse discrimination.
No, no there is not. Here is the definition of discrimination http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/discriminate. Where in this does it mention "minority" or "majority"
a : the act of discriminating
b : the process by which two stimuli differing in some aspect are responded to differently
2 : the quality or power of finely distinguishing
3 a : the act, practice, or an instance of discriminating categorically rather than individually
b : prejudiced or prejudicial outlook, action, or treatment
Discrimination is about a group, not just minorities, but any group, that you discriminate against solely because of a group.
And the definition of discriminate, since you obviously are trying to twist it as well, still no minority/majority, only groups:
a : to mark or perceive the distinguishing or peculiar features of
b : distinguish, differentiate
2 : to distinguish by discerning or exposing differences; especially : to distinguish from another like object
intransitive verb
1 a : to make a distinction
b : to use good judgment
2: to make a difference in treatment or favor on a basis other than individual merit
When you cant win, ad hominem.
There is an interesting contrast between attitudes in Silicon Valley vs RTP, NC. In Silicon Valley, after we'd hire a guy with promising ability and work with him in a team environment for a couple years, he'd often increase his productivity by 2-4X, while simultaneously increasing the quality of work. At this point, we'd have a guy worth over 4X what we originally paid him. We'd offer 15%-ish raises every year, but eventually we'd lose him because another company would make him an offer he could not refuse. That was all fine... it was part of the process. We'd have multiple such guys at any time, getting less than what they are worth, helping train the next generation, while Silicon Valley benefitted from these amazing guys who work well with others in addition to being exceptional coders. Some managers out there are always looking for the best talent, and are willing to pay for it.
Here in NC, where few companies have headquarters, companies are mostly interested in hiring talent cheaply. Those same two super-algorithms guys we hired last decade are still working for us, and they are both worth 4X what we originally paid them. I suspect we pay them pretty well for around here, but with all the bean counters, there are few companies smart enough to rip them off from us. I try to explain how much they are really worth to management, and I think they understand, but they've gotten used to rock-star performance from these guys and probably simply expect all algorithms guys to be able to do that. One of those guys is currently saving my bacon, because this whole central vision deterioration thing has not only slowed me down, but it's distracted me greatly. I'm currently hogging 1 CPU and 30 gig of memory on one of our servers building a human genome database with bwa, and I'm parsing my family's exomes with custom code and slinging gene sequences around looking for any clues about color blindness or central vision loss... not good for my schedule at work. Fortunately, with this rock star on my project, we can catch up and knock this project out of the park.
Celebrate failure, and then learn from it - Nolan Bushnell
Not that I think you're wrong, but there are counter examples.
The most amazing team I ever worked with had a manager who didn't even want to hire the team. The manager, let's call him Bob, was made VP of Software Dev because he was a founder and they didn't know what else to do with him. He didn't believe in software automation, and preferred manual editors for electronic design, so when he was told to hire a software team, he hired one guy who was amazing by accident, which is a funny story. Bob accidentally triple-scheduled his morning, with two interviews at the same time as a board meeting. Bob is one seriously brilliant ADHD kind of guy, so this is normal for him. When the first guy showed up, who we'll call Charlie, the VP told him to interview the next guy when he arrived, who we'll call Dan, and then Bob went to the board meeting. Charlie simply sat behind Bob's desk and when Dan showed up, Charlie pretended to be Bob, and make short work of Dan's interview, convincing Dan to look for a job elsewhere. With only one candidate left, Bob naturally hired Charlie. Bob then refused to have much of anything to do with Charlie, who then went and hired the rest of the team as the CEO wanted Bob to do. Charlie could tell good talent from bad and did a great job hiring, even though he was not the manager. In fact, we didn't really have a manager, as Bob refused to have anything to do with automation software development. So, we kind of self-organized, and then we kicked butt. It was thrilling watching what our team could do.
What I always wonder is how much credit does Bob deserve? If all that counts is results, then Bob did a fantastic job as VP of Software Dev.
Celebrate failure, and then learn from it - Nolan Bushnell
I did the opposite. I took double my pay to get back to market rate and in exchange I wear a monkey suit, lost my office, and work in a cube.
But at least I can afford to live now... I'd gladly take a small pay cut though to go back to wearing tshirts and having my own private area to work.
All lawyers and all doctors are in unions, dumbfuck.
No, lawyers and doctors are more like a guild than a union.
Seconded.
I learned in my mid-20s that money isn't everything - I took a job offer paying just shy of six figures, and was miserable. Miserable working conditions, miserable co-workers, office politics, backstabbing, crummy working space...I won't go into details, but a lot wasn't right.
Today, I'm still a project manager, I make less money than I did then (even less when allowing for inflation), but my co-workers are great, my team is professional where it counts, I'm valued for my contributions.....
There are many surveys out there detailing the amount of people unhappy with their work, or career, or workplace....enjoying what you do, where you do it, and who you're doing it with is definitely more valuable than a bigger paycheck.
Some people interview poorly. Give them a problem to solve and a few hours alone and look at the output. It's probably a better way to interview.
I honestly fail at interviewing for programming positions. I just fail at being asked the difference between methods, or what arguments X function takes, etc. I'm a plotting, methodical, researching, developer. Give me a weekend to write you a small application and then spend the interview asking me to defend my design decisions and I think you will see the real level of my skill (for good or bad). Dump me in a meeting and fire questions about obscure (I know your questions above were not that obscure) like most interviewers do and I come off like an idiot.
Part of the problem is here in NC the cost of living is somewhat low so they think they can pay pennies on the dollar when it is really 80 cents on the dollar.
When you cant win, ad hominem.
Incorrect. They choose cheaper labor over more expensive labor. This is Business 101. No court in the land would rule for Plaintiff.
And if the more expensive labor offered to work for less money? Then what?
The H1B wars... begun they have...
Is this 1997?
Meesa most upset that my mooie mooie Gungan network engineering certification not gonna be good enough for a job in America. Meesa be thinking that I be back to working in Gungan call center taking orders for cheap shit coming soon.
I would love to see (literally) what happens if an American-born citizen wants to escape bad things in this good ol' USA and immigrates into India. What jobs could they find? How fast? How much pay? LOL
Good talent is hard to find right now, which is why I think this class action lawsuit is doomed.
What kills me is that I can never get a logical AND emotionally-agreeable answer to "define 'good talent.'"
I'm actually all for the home team advantage. If we are bleeding tech jobs in the US, then shut down the H1-Bs and save those jobs for Americans. If our startups are struggling because they can't find local talent, then increase the H1-Bs and let in the best talent the world has to offer. We benefit both ways. What we need to avoid is opening the flood gates on H1-Bs when American programmers are having trouble finding jobs, and also we need to avoid closing the flood gates on H1-Bs when American companies are struggling because they can't find the talent they need. Unfortunately, this is mostly a matter of politics, and you know how well that works...
I've been saying this same damn thing since the late 90s and get the same response every time: glazed eyes followed by "so anyway..."
If Infosys does lose this case, instead of heavier restrictions on H1Bs we'll find lobbyists (on behalf of tech companies) pushing for loser restrictions.
It's like you have a sixth sense. ;)
No, the H1B worker would still have to have a sponsor to come over.
I was using the example to point out that a lot of interviewing techniques simply fail at finding anyone except those who can answer interviewing questions.
Do you want a guy who knows a textbook answer or a guy who writes solid programs? Does it matter to you if he leverages the internet while programming (not code copying, but looking up reference docs, patterns, etc). The questions in the post above were not important, but rather a avenue to the point I was making.
And yes, I have bombed simple questions. Sometimes because I over thought it, or others because I simply have never ran into the situation. I've been a linux admin for the better part of 10 years and recently in a interview was asked a very simple question that I had never encountered and didn't know the answer to. The guy challenged my experience based on the fact I did not know the answer. The truth is I had never encountered it and thus really didn't know. A 3 second google gave me the info I needed with my background to know how to solve the problem. This guy discounted my job exp because I didn't know how to do something and my guess wasn't close enough.
Why give her a 6 figure salary, when you can get someone at a weak 5 figures?
Because they're assisting in the decline of the economy and lowering in the value of the dollar. Basically seeding collapse. But hey, it won't happen in their lifetime, so seed away!
Or how about fuck h1b and just let them immigrate? Win win. We get a citizen witha great sskill set that will work at american wages and they dont get kicked out of the country when they want to stay.
"Writing complex javascript, vbscript and other languages are still programming whether you believe it is below you or not, because it falls squarely within the definition of creating a program"
No, it doesnt. The program here is the browser, and you didnt program it. You are using it, as designed.
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I HATE you!
Not only did I read that in Jar Jar's voice but I saw his face and got his slobber all over my keyboard.
"A person is smart. People are dumb, panicky dangerous animals and you know it." - K
And here I was so looking forward to the "Dice Virtual Open House, featuring Infosys" that I got spammed with last week.
To employ the internet vernacular... "lulz"
Your comment reminded me of the time we had an MIT grad come into my bosses office, and ask why he should work here. My boss politely responded that he shouldn't and that the interview was complete. I don't know if the individual was a minority, or if they were qualified for the position, but if the answer to both of those were yes, could we have been in a similar situation with a suit against us?
Disclaimer: I'm not a fan of the current implementation of H1B, and believe they're abused severely. So, I'm interested to see the details of this case, and how it progresses.
Just another day in Paradise
So if someone writes a desktop application that accesses data from a database, performs some business validation on it, and presents it to the user, then they are a programmer.
But if they do exactly the same thing and present it to the user in a web page, they are not?
I don't understand your definitions.
No, but in this case (if you read the court documents linked to from TFA), they didn't even bother to offer her a position.
The point of H1B visa regulations is that you can't hire outside workers for a position without first attempting to fill the position locally at standard market rates and/or the rates at which you currently pay domestic workers performing the same job.
1.) Oh, the originating country does not allow Americans to work there, under the same or better conditions? BAM! No H1-B visas for you.
1-a.) If no U.S. government agency will maintain a list? The U.S. worker just needs to prove they were statutorily barred working in the country that originated any H1B visa the company sponsored.
2.) For ANY violation of the H1-B visa conditions, make the sponsoring company subject to triple damages, paid to any U.S. worker that was passed-over, in favor of an H1-B.
Meesa most upset that my mooie mooie Gungan network engineering certification not gonna be good enough for a job in America. Meesa be thinking that I be back to working in Gungan call center taking orders for cheap shit coming soon.
I would love to see (literally) what happens if an American-born citizen wants to escape bad things in this good ol' USA and immigrates into India. What jobs could they find? How fast? How much pay? LOL
From what I understand, they won't be able to find much if any due to job laws in India. They'd have to first declare residency before being able to get a job at the very least. Catch-22 may be?
Truth is like the sun. You can shut it out for a time, but it ain't goin' away. - Elvis Presley (source: imdb.com)
No, it's wrong.
Remove the barriers that cause female disadvantage. While you're at it, remove the barriers that prevent men getting equal custody of the children, that cause men to die younger and that cause men to be assaulted more often than women.
None of these requires discrimination. If a woman wants to sacrifice her home and family life to pursue her career then she too can earn more than most men.
I think the current exchange rate is three white males per Opra.
You only get 2.5 black males, but you can get four Indians and 4.2 Chinese men (unless they're Mongolian, then you're back down to nearer 3).
Racial preference doesn't have a strong correlation to body mass so you're welcome to reintroduce that factor.
So who would anyone that might be interesetd contact you? Your e-mail isn't public, and /. doesn't have a chat feature.
Truth is like the sun. You can shut it out for a time, but it ain't goin' away. - Elvis Presley (source: imdb.com)
I hate unions. I'm a member of a professional association.
Completely with you. Professional standards, with professional practices, held to account for delivering professional output.
Start doing that repeatedly and we can start exploring territory the lawyers and doctors have already carved out: mandatory professional body accreditation, as a guarantor of the professional outputs.
Reading material: http://www.stevemcconnell.com/psd.htm
Had a coworker who lived ~90 miles from the office. He took the job over numerous others closer to his home because they waived the dress code for him. His attire of choice was an old tank top and neon orange jump pants. He also had an impressive pony tail. Once a month he would bring in his homemade habanero jerky...mmm...jerky.
"A person is smart. People are dumb, panicky dangerous animals and you know it." - K
""Web programming" does not mean restricting yourself simply just creating HTML documents, which, I'd have to agree, is not programming."
And the converse is that when you go beyond and actually do some "programming" you are no longer within the domain of the web.
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She's claiming that (a) she has specific certificates in what were declared to be the "requirements" or "qualifications" for the job, (b) in the interview, she believed she gave great answers about those specific "skills", so it appears she was obviously able and willing to do the work,
but (c) they continued to interview for 2 more months and then gave the job to a non-American who may or may not have had the certificates, may or may not have shown as much savvy in the interview, and that they did so in a way that was illegally discriminatory based on her nationality.
"Qualified" is the ghost of a wisp of the memory of a dream; it has no solid, objective meaning that anyone could be held to.
What are the best/worst results likely to come from the law-suit? I'm not a shei ster, so I'm just speculating here: It could be transformed into a class-action, drawing other US citizens (and people who have green cards). It could result in penalties against the specific firm, which penalties could be mere tokens or significant enough to discourage other such firms from engaging in discrimination against US workers. It could be that the judges will wave aside the evidence gathered so far, the affidavits and testimony, or even disallow much of it, and require her to pay the court costs and reimburse the firm.
What is the most likely outcome?
I've long suspected it's at least as much about control and compliance for management as it is the wages. Given the overhead involved in getting H1Bs versus native workers and the reasonably well accepted performance penalty (weaker talent, communications, bad code) involved in using non-native labor, I think the cost saving is probably a wash if you looked at the labor costs associated with a finished project.
H1Bs have two things going for them as management sees them:
1) Most are from a country with deep social stratification and an in-built deference to those in a higher social strata. You're not just getting less expensive labor, you're getting someone who has been raised in a culture where they have been taught since youth that they are subservient to their betters.
2) The strong desire to stay in America, even if it means living 12 to a shitty 2 bedroom apartment.
Both of those things result in a compliant workforce that eats overtime for free and is happy to switch from a good, interesting job to shit work during shit hours without complaining.
Native-born IT workers usually see themselves at least as intelligent, if not more so, than management and quite often easily challenge management decisions regarding IT, frustrating management control and prestige. With high IT salary demands, it becomes harder for middle tier managers to control their employees and achieve status since their income isn't enough more than their employees to make wealth a strong differentiator.
No but he has been heard calling Honey Boo Boo a talented actress.
That said I have a friend who made a fortune freelancing as VB programmer back in the day.
"A person is smart. People are dumb, panicky dangerous animals and you know it." - K
I understand that. And yes, there is benefit to asking basic questions. And yes, I can talk fairly extensively about the basics of the languages I've worked in for years. The problem comes from one off specific questions. Ask me a php/python/javascript question and 9/10 times I'll know the answer. Ask me a question about built in array key sorting functions in php and I don't have a damn clue. I'd just go to php.net and look up the api in question. I know what they do, but I don't know how they work off the top of my head (order or arguments, return types, etc). I just don't need them that often.
Another example is that many parts of a job are done rarely. For example I have written some pretty nice shell scripts for automation. However I am not scripting in bash daily. So when you ask me to write some script in bash on the spot I probably will fail. Give me 5 minutes and a browser so I can get my head back into bash mode and you will get a script. I have far too much in my head to remember the syntax of every language I've worked in.
To be clear, I'm not complaining about losing jobs due to the interviewing process. I just think the interviewing process can dismiss many good candidates. One of the best interviews I had was totally non-traditional. I was given a soap api, specs to a web app, and access to a database. I had the weekend to create the web application and submit it to them. They called me a few days later to defend my project. They grilled me and pointed out tons of flaws. I learned a lot, they learned exactly what kind of developer I am and how I respond to criticism, and I got the job. I don't really have problems securing well paying work. But I do feel like I've blow quite a few interviews because of the interviewing process and my inability to spout things off the top of my head.
Ideally under 25 with 10+ years of java 37 on Windows 10.
We used to do this as pub game, a variant on "my aunt went shopping". Grade 3 piano ... black belt in judo/aikido ... preferably a Scorpio or Sagittarius ... bilingual (Finnish/Maltese) ...
Confucius say, "Find worm in apple - bad. Find half a worm - worse."
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There are algorithms and then there are algorithms. It depends on the area of the application you want him to help develop: algorithms for scientific applications, engineering, mathematical, word processing, statistics, GIS...? Do they want a mathematician/biophysicist/screen-writer/PR or marketing expert/accountant/software engineer, i.e. a purple squirrel, or a real software product developer? Or are they not seeking a product developer but a throw-away "data processor"/"IT" clone they will dump once this project is over?
Where are they advertising? Are they advertising where an algorithms person would be most likely to see it? Display ads or teeny little classifieds or Munster only or Dies only? Do the ads include the hiring manager's e-mail address and the number for the telephone on his office desk? Are they willing to fly in candidates from around the USA for interviews? Are they willing to relocate new-hires? Are they willing to invest in 2-12 weeks of new-hire training and 2-4 weeks per year of retained employee training?
If not, they're not seriously trying.
I really can't say I agree; if the application is accessed through the web, this introduces all kinds of particular technological issues to be handled. It's a bit like a having a GUI library that is quite opinionated about how you need to be architecting your application -- of course depending on what kind of a separation you want there to be between the layers. But if you're web-programming, you'll have to take these things into account. It really is not just HTML...
I want to play Free Market with a drowning Libertarian.
As like the case in BC, Canada
Yes, "WaywardGeek", H-1B would be fine if it were truly limited to the purpose of bringing in the genuinely "best" or "brightest", and there would have been a lot less friction if that is what it had been.
The discussion was about discrimination. In the case of race, discrimination requires racism.
You are welcome on my lawn.
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"Ideally under 25 with 10+ years of java 37 on Windows 10."
and 12 years on Mac 10.10.3 (10.10.1 or 10.10.4 simply won't do), 5 years on iOS, plus accounting, marketing, graphic arts, data-base analysis and design...
Meanwhile, 2,375 US citizens who would have been able to do well on the real job that needs to be done (individually or in a team of people with complementary knowledge and talents) would be rejected out of hand as "unqualified".
"But we must have a purple squrrel! Right now!"
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That sounds even worse. At least with an H-1B visa some of them leave after just a few months or years. Thus, after a cartain point, they don't further worsen the talent glut, the over-population, the over-crowding, and the over-regulation and over-taxation and artificially jacked-up costs of living which result (especially in Sili Valley).
Now, if we required "a great skill set" and high intelligence, to get an H-1B visa, and the H-1B visa were valid for 9-10 months before it had to be renewed, and every visa applicant had to pass a proper background investigation, and green cards were limited to 100K per year, and student visas were limited to 40K-50K of the very best per year... THAT would be a satisfactory improvement. But the fact is that the USA federal government doesn't even require "a great skill set" or even average intelligence for the supposedly much more exalted O visas.
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Some great software product developers are in the autism spectrum, and thus are very likely to be categorized as not "socially adept" but can get along fine with people if they've been trained about specific things, and the people with whom they work are similarly capable of adjusting their expectations appropriately.
Many great software product developers are quite willing to wear 3-piece suits (and great-coats in the frozen north)... if you pay them enough to be able to afford buying several such, cover the dry cleaning bills, as well as the usual mortgage/rent, local food prices, local taxes, local transportation costs, their own on-going education and training, their family's education, insurance, etc. And certainly so for the rare meetings with customers or investors.
Still, there's nothing wrong with wearing jeans and T-shirts and comfy shoes to work in a cave or cubicle in the vast majority of software product development firms most days of the year.
Actual reasonable human beings don't have to put up with people who initiate force or fraud, or engage in belligerent PC nonsense.
"Right now, a reasonable programmer or IT professional who complains about not being able to find a job sounds like" someone who is finally catching on.
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But calling insertion of HTML tags "programming" is reminiscent of earlier waves of title infation like calling mere USERS of, e.g. statistical software packages, or data-base management systems, or spread-sheets* "programmers" instead of merely configurers and formatters and accessors. In reality, they're not quite programs, not quite doing "real programming". Maybe moderately-savvy, advanced- or super-user might be appropriate for some of them, but they're still "just users". Putting together a macro or a script is not equivalent to programming, though, e.g. Python kind of bridges the divide.
I've even seen/heard using a text editor referred to as doing "programming".
* After hearing a radio interview of the pres. of the local juco talking about their STEM programs a few days back, I went to check their courses and certificates. Sure enough, they have "certificates" in using a spread-sheet and word processor, FCOL -- something any bright computer programming student (or even minimally bright 4th or 5th graders) could figure out in a flash. And they're classifying this as "science, technology, engineering and math".
And MSFT Javascript is evil. Eschew Javascript.
Since the premise of the H1B is that no one in the US is qualified to do the job being hired for, the solution is that the H1B program should be revamped to require a US worker be hired to shadow the H1B at equal pay and a requirement that they do not produce any usable work from the shadowing. This way, the cost advantage of H1B goes down the toilet and local workers get a job either way. This should severely curtail the illegitimate use of H1Bs.
For the situations where the H1B is legitimate, there are two points of view that must be considered. The employer and the country. For the employer, they should expect to pay through the nose if they have a job that requires skills so unique that there isn't a single person in a first world country of over 300 million that can fit the bill. If the person did exist, and the company didn't violate the law with an H1B, they would likely be paying as much as they do for the double salary anyway. Plus they are training a backup in case the H1B doesn't last for any reason.
From a countries perspective... If there is a job that is necessary in our country, and there isn't a single person in the entire USA that can do the job, then we absolutely need to train people in this. Thus, from a national perspective, the local hire becomes part of maintaining our national security, just as much as making sure we have viable farm land is maintaining our national security.
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But if they do exactly the same thing and present it to the user in a web page, they are not?"
No, none of those are "programmers". They're data-base USERS.
"Bidness validation" ptui!
It's not an "unfair" advantage, it's a fair one.
Learn to love Alaska
Remove the barriers that cause female disadvantage.
So how do you propose we remove all the biased people (as that approaches 100% of the population)?
Learn to love Alaska
In the end it's probably for a 3 month contract on the other side of the United States anyway.
Why would anyone want protection against being hired?
Confucius say, "Find worm in apple - bad. Find half a worm - worse."
This "I am a victim" culture needs to stop. People should be treated only by criteria relevant to the task.
If only they were. But they aren't, so your suggestion is "change human nature."
Men (and women) assume a married 35 year old women looking for a stable job is more likely to take maternity leave than a man in the same situation, and thus account for it in the hiring decision (often unconsciously), or that a woman with 2 kids is more likely to take sick leave than the man with two kids.
Affirmative action is akin to an eye for an eye.
Only if everyone had unlimited eyes. Funny how NCLB is a conservative ideal where the effect is holding back the high performers to benefit the worst performers, but translate that to AA, and the same people who passed Public School AA whine about it. The only logical conclusion I can reach is that NCLB was deliberate sabotage.
That, and AA is good when it's *for* white males. Bush got into Yale as a "legacy" (he got a benefit based on who his daddy was). But a black person who gets in because his daddy was black is a bad bad thing that hurts babies and kicks dogs.
Learn to love Alaska
It is defined. And it is US market.
Learn to love Alaska
Or not even him. Why there's no check that the requirement is eventually met is beyond me. Rather negates the point of having it in the first place, doesn't it?
And this isn't just limited to H1-Bs. I've seen it in other countries too, and not necessarily to bring in foreigners. *Cough* nepotism *cough*
Confucius say, "Find worm in apple - bad. Find half a worm - worse."
...
No, there is no requirement to pay the market rate, only to pay the legal fiction "prevailing wage", which empirical data and statements of bodyshoppers and foreign ministers indicate to be 10% to 35% below local market compensation.
Hmm, I wonder how many of those 1,000 US citizens Tata promised to employ at their Milford/Cincinnati "North American Headquarters" by 2010 were ever hired. I did read that they'd hired "400 people recruited from colleges in the region", but they didn't define the "region", and they adamantly refuse to say how many of those were US citizens, how many have been hired and fired already, or how they're doing toward the promised 1,000 US citizen employees. Siemens (German) bought out SDRC which neighbored the Tata Milford office, and I recently learned that a lot of the people they employed were from India and Germany (just as they did in their Lake Mary, FL office), while I know good STEM pros in the Cincy area are begging for work.
It depends. I have generated 'applications' by ticking some switches and letting a program spit out an application based on that. Was I engaged in programming at the time? Hardly. Just using a program for its intended use.
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Friends don't let friends enable ecmascript.
The discussion was about discrimination. In the case of race, discrimination requires racism.
No it was about determining if there was racism. If we have already assumed there is racism there is nothing to determine.
When you cant win, ad hominem.
Federal rates are calculated based on regulations established by the Department of Labor. According to Code of Federal Regulations, "The prevailing wage shall be the wage paid to the majority (more than 50 percent) of the laborers or mechanics in the classification on similar projects in the area during the period in question. If the same wage is not paid to a majority of those employed in the classification, the prevailing wage shall be the average of the wages paid, weighted by the total employed in the classification."[4] State level rates are calculated using various methods including an average of all wage rates paid, the mode, or based on collectively bargained rates.
When you cant win, ad hominem.
Well, here's a hint: it doesn't involve encouraging bias the other way.
If bias is bad, it's bad.
Yes. Words have meanings. You are just not using those meanings. Case in point: http://bellard.org/jslinux/
Since the entire emulator is written in JavaScript to run in a browser, and using that tool, you can write and self compile the Linux kernel, by your definition Linux kernel developers are not "programming". Literally, any application that can be written can be written to run in a browser using JavaScript. The only question is how hard it would be to write, and how fast it would run.
Obviously, your use of words have no meaning, and you should reconsider how you use them if you want to successfully communicate.
If she was qualified, and no other American was qualified, then any amount she asked for was the 'Market Rate'. The requirement to pay H1Bs 'Market Rate' is in direct conflict with the requirement that no qualified American workers exist.
That's right! This villain is responsible for hundreds of years of oppression, and he must be punished for his crimes against humanity!
Seriously. You are a sicko.
discrimination against someone based on the fact that someone of their race, but not directly related to them, once discriminated against someone of my race, who was also not directly related to me
That would be "discrimination", since there is no discrimination that doesn't fit that definition.
Is developing in C or asm writing a program?
Is developing in Python writing a program?
Is developing in Java writing a program?
Is developing in Javascript with NodeJS a program?
Is developing in C using NaCL for a web page writing a program?
If I take a program developed in C and port it to Javascript to run in the browser via LLVM/Emscripten does it cease to be a program?
Is this a program?
https://developer.cdn.mozilla.net/media/uploads/demos/a/z/azakai/3baf4ad7e600cbda06ec46efec5ec3b8/bananabread_1373485124_demo_package/index.html
"Web programming" is writing programs on or for the web. "Web design" is something different.
"Web programmers" are people who write software that runs in an amazing cross platform VM: the browser.
I'm one of them.
I know you were just trying to be cute with your comment, but you were legitimately called out on it because it is BS. It's best not to try to defend a bad argument. Just evaluate, learn, adjust your understand and move on.
Drinking habits can be dangerous. You can choke on the cloth and the nuns will wonder where their clothes are.
Two conflicting handicaps can result in a bias free results. Like Golf or bowling handicaps. One player is "worse", so they are given an advantage.
Learn to love Alaska
If women are worse than men then they shouldn't expect equality. If they're equal then they don't need an advantage.
Your argument is self-defeating.
They are not necessarily inferior, but the handicap is they are treated as such. So treating them better for one thing and worse for another will even out. You claimed that wouldn't happen. I proved that there are other areas where it does. You didn't address my point, but dismissed my rebuttal of your statement and treated it as an argument for my point. That's logically incorrect, but consistent with your previous incorectness.
Learn to love Alaska
Asking for a ridiculous salary would make her unqualified for the job, but that's not what happened.
Exactly.
I'm totally against off-shoring jobs, and encouraging foreigners to move to the US to be paid a fraction of the fair market rate. It's ruining the US economy, to boost profits and (somewhat) help the economy of poorer foreign nations.
The choices have driven the US economy to the bring of ruin, which we're barely seeing recovery from now.
Some companies are seeing the damage they're doing, but only when they've seen their customer base decimated. Most of those companies have lost their asses, making the devastation worse.
I'll sugar coat it next time.
Serious? Seriousness is well above my pay grade.
so your suggestion is "change human nature."
Nope, my suggestion is "actually try ", instead of going "The most benefits to the people who complain the most!". All you can ever do is attempt to treat people fairly. You might not always succeed, but the opposite is to purposefully treat them unfairly, like with affirmative action and other discrimination based on sex/race.
You are trying to replace a potential injustice with a systematic and purposeful one.
Men (and women) assume a married 35 year old women looking for a stable job is more likely to take maternity leave than a man in the same situation, and thus account for it in the hiring decision (often unconsciously), or that a woman with 2 kids is more likely to take sick leave than the man with two kids.
Employers also often assume someone with a bachelors degree is more capable than one without, while in a fair number of cases it is true, that does not make it universal. They are incapable of knowing everything about their potential employees, so some generalisations will happen to an extent, but generally if it is overly pertinent to the job, they will ask or test instead of assuming.
That, and AA is good when it's *for* white males. Bush got into Yale as a "legacy" (he got a benefit based on who his daddy was).
Who says I support that?, kick those kinds of things to the curb also.
Nope, my suggestion is "actually try ",
It was tried for years and didn't make a difference. When "actually try" doesn't work, what do we try next?
Employers also often assume someone with a bachelors degree is more capable than one without, while in a fair number of cases it is true, that does not make it universal. They are incapable of knowing everything about their potential employees, so some generalisations will happen to an extent, but generally if it is overly pertinent to the job, they will ask or test instead of assuming.
Yes, and those "generalizations" are illegal discrimination when applied to gender, but not education level.
Who says I support that?, kick those kinds of things to the curb also.
They exist and are legal, so AA is "required" to balance the legal discrimination.
That, and it's monumentally stupid to end the support of the most disadvantaged while not ending the support of the most advantaged. End the white AA (legacy), and then we'll talk. If you can't end that, then don't work so hard to end the same thing that benefits only minorities. It makes you look like a racist. Whites get to keep everything, but Blacks don't get anything.
Learn to love Alaska
When "actually try" doesn't work, what do we try next?
Just keep on trying, it is all you can do. Implementing systematic injustice because some people let criteria irrelevant to the task get in the way sometimes is idiotic, throwing the baby out with the bath water.
Yes, and those "generalizations" are illegal discrimination when applied to gender, but not education level.
Only when being used as criteria for a task where it is not necessarily so. When you make criteria you use the _actual_ value, the one that matters. I can say that on average men are physically stronger than women and that is fine. If I have a job that requires lifting a certain amount of relatively heavy weight of course I'd wind up finding more males as suitable applicants, but so long as their ability to do the job is what is being assessed and not other things having more male employees than female in that context isn't sexism, just happened that one demographic had more people suited to the task.
They exist and are legal,
And so is paying women more than men for the same job, both of these injustices are legal, I propose we endeavour to end both.
monumentally stupid to end the support of the most disadvantaged while not ending the support of the most advantaged. End the white AA (legacy), and then we'll talk.
As I said before, I support ending that also. The same argument is used for both, that it is using criteria irrelevant to the task and so should be stopped
If you support ending the legacy items, you should support ending affirmative action also.
The individual may be dim (haven't read their post), but if we had unionized in the 90s on a guild-basis like the performers' unions, we would not be fighting this battle.
If you support ending the legacy items, you should support ending affirmative action also.
I also support ending racism, but there's nothing I can do about that. If there's a material and measurable harm to one group, why are you against righting that wrong?
Learn to love Alaska
I think we open up a STEM college with only MOOC courses. Then grant STEM degrees after short while. Then these guys would automatically qualify for green cards under the new law. No limit or nasty restrictions like H1Bs.
No, but your original post indicated that someone who is a "web programmer" is not really a programmer.
Now you are saying "it depends".
I've never seen a job posting for a "web programmer" that did not involve actual programming. Your definition makes no sense.
Well we have different experiences then. I have actually been offered jobs as 'web programmer' that involved no programming in fact. I have also seen jobs as 'web programmer' that did involve some programming, but obviously the 'web' part in that case was a misnomer.
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Friends don't let friends enable ecmascript.
If there's a material and measurable harm to one group
So because society doesn't value the types of jobs women ten o gravitate towards in general we must make their pay even because capitalism and getting paid as a function of demand and perceived worth doesn't work? Suckier jobs that need to be done pay more, news at 11.
Just because the overall numbers swing in mens favour of earnings doesn't necessarily mean society wide sexism is going on. People could just be different and expecting everything to be 50% down the line is silly.
why are you against righting that wrong?
Because you aren't righting any wrong, you are guaranteeing new ones.
Sugar coating ruins expressive thought. Rant on!
Actually, I look for certain personality disorders in an algorithms programmer. What I promise is that we will give them super hard problems that wont have published solutions, and expect them to invent and code commercial quality implementations. They wont be able to publish their work, but the two or three of us who are capable of understanding the amazing work they do will be suitably impressed, and we might ask them to file a patent on their innovations, which will be owned by the company. They'll slave at a computer keyboard all day. The best guys I've hired don't even turn on the lights, and code in the dark.
Yes... they, and I, are very much outside the bounds socially. Dress? Totally optional. Feel free to code naked.
Celebrate failure, and then learn from it - Nolan Bushnell
I responded to your rather stupid comment alone. Leave the other people out of it since that is no excuse.
"No qualified candidate is available locally"
Emphasis on the word locally.
Which is why H1B outfits pester people with job offers in different cities. ("We can't find anyone in the area and noone wants to move")
I'm not a USA citizen, nor do I have any desire to work on H1B - precisely because it leaves the holder vulnerable to employer diktat on hours, etc etc.
What does surprise me is that a country which was BUILT on immigration is trying so hard to lock the doors to anyone else now trying to come in. It's not exactly "full" and the protectionism which is occurring is precisely why these employment scams can be perpetuated (ie, skilled non-USA-born employees faced with unfair demands should be able to "walk" or negotiate better conditions just as easily as "locals". H1Bs force a lockin on them AND undercut the locals (although to be fair, some locals have higher expectations than they deserve.).
Comments on the quality of "foreign" programmers are noted and agreed with (especially observations along the lines of "4 pages of obfuscated code where only 3 lines are needed), however in a properly free market they wouldn't have been hired in the first place, nor would they be retained for long.
What battle is that? Let the morons from 2nd world countries take the shitty fucking jobs with their shitty fucking skills. I don't want those jobs.
My apologies for not remembering the show, but there was the show that featured somebody that actually worked in India as something (working in a call center, methinks).
I saw that. :)
I'm not talking show - I'm talking real life scenario.
This is a cycle being repeated in almost all countries where companies looking to preserve their bottomline without worrying about improving in other areas tend to embark upon the quick fix "IT Outsourcing" Being almost 12+ years in this field, I can relate to the mentality of the hiring organization and empathise with the "over qualified" colleague. In today's commoditized IT labor landscape, if 1 resource can be replaced by 2 cheaper resources who in long run can do work of 3, it makes commercial sense for the client & the service provider. The potential target group is usually the heavy experienced people whose skill has been commoditized. This is a cascading effect of the client looking for improving margins in outsourcing, the vendor maintaining his margins while offering reduced priced service and not wanting to pay premium when he can get away with a cheaper & probably not "suitably qualified" resource.
You really need to stop trolling me. I made a comment directly to a specific comment and you coming in half baked and trying to insult someone over it just another extension of your pathetic existence. You might want to think about killing yourself and putting your misery to rest once and for all.
You might be surprised... see, if they're hiring H1B workers, it means they're implicitly claiming (under the laws that allow H1B work visas so you can hire foreigners in the first place) that NO SUITABLE TALENT could feasibly be found state-side. If it can be proven however that they regularly pass over US citizens for the sole reason that H1B workers are the more cost effective option, they're probably going to be facing heavy fines at the very least. Its quite possible they will be in a lot of trouble and the court case will precipitate the type of more heavy restrictions on granting of H1B visas in the first place.
=== .0001 percentile
You must do the lawsuite and show that you (and others) were rejected, and that you did not make salary demands that were above the average salary for that kind of position. You cannot expect to be hired if your salary demand puts you in the
Leslie Satenstein Montreal Quebec Canada
So?
Let the race to the bottom begin.
If it's going to happen on the sly anyway, we may as well be open about it. All outlawing it does is make sure that only the shady companies are brave or callous enough to try it. An indirect version fo the "criminals vs guns" debates.
And if conditions in the rest of the world really are that sucky that THEY think of it as profitable to steal jobs from us, then may be we need to count our own blessings.
You may have been downvoted, but I agree with some of your points.
Laws that merely serve to cloak activity instead of actually stop it are useless and simply save the market for the shady ones that have fewer scruples about breaking the law. Just like how prohibition only served to fatten the mob with bootlegging money.
And you are correct about blacklisting, even though the lawsuit has merit. The question is whether or not she already had anything to lose, and possibly also whether she considers it worth it to be a martyr for the cause.
Everyone always eventually gets what they deserve, whether that is towards their benefit or their destruction. It's just that it usually takes a good god damned long time.
And that's the problem.
It is a miracle that curiosity survives formal education. - Einstein
Once again you live up to your handle - it's not about origin at all but instead current citizenship.
... which, unless you go to considerable time, effort, expense and maybe also some luck to change it, is in fact based on national origin. Think of national origin as the default state. It can be overcome, but otherwise, it is the default setting. For most people most of the time, they are a citizen of a nation because that is where they were born.
It is a miracle that curiosity survives formal education. - Einstein
Because the H1B rules say so.
And as quick as companies are to use the law to browbeat their competitors every chance they get, they ought to fall in line when the law is not on their side.
There are limits to it... Say American applicants were only willing to do the job for $1M/yr, but they can farm it out to a foreign worker for $10K/yr, and the company budget is up to $50K/yr.
I know it's the argument that they claim, yet screw American employees. Hi, I am one.
I worked for 8 years at job where I was making about $125K/yr (including benefits). The job given to a foreign company for $50K/yr. I wasn't offered to take a pay cut, or any other type of negotiation. I just found myself locked out of the servers, and it took them a full day to let me know I wasn't employed any more.
My ex-employer suffered because of it. The outsourced company convinced them that they should be paranoid of me. Every bit of running code, from crons, to public facing interfaces, was rewritten at a cost of over $250K in 6 months. They spent a lot of time hunting for back doors that I simply had never left. I consider back doors a security risk. It's better to focus on keeping the front door secure.
The servers were systematically wiped and replaced (swapping Linux for *BSD). The outsourced company didn't understand the kind of loads my servers were tuned for. On commodity hardware, we could saturate several GigE circuits on any day of the week, and it was redundant enough to take multiple servers or even an entire site outage.
Over the next year, I was told by employees and others associated with the company, about constant failures. The primary revenue sites would go down on a regular basis, because they couldn't tune them properly. When they did operate, they were slow. They did purchase networking hardware I had been fighting for, but they failed to configure them properly either. I suspect the redundancy I had outlined wasn't done, but I don't have any further information on that. They didn't want to reference anything I had done, including 8 years of tuning and analysis of technical requirements.
All in all, from what I've been told by those who are still privileged to information, is that their revenue dropped by millions of dollars.
I don't know if they're still using the other company. I know there was a big fight between the owners, and they parted ways. I'd suspect it wasn't over creative control. Most likely they were seriously impacted by the loss of revenue, and anything could have instigated the split.
They saved about $75K/yr. They lost so much more. There were implications that I might do something to hurt them. I didn't have to, they screwed it up all on their own.
All of my work was well documented. Since the beginning, a copy of the passwords were kept with the owners. In my opinion, it's their company, and they can screw it up any way they want. It just sucks I lost a good job, so a foreign based company could make a little bit more. It sucks for my old company too, as they lost their asses because of it.
Serious? Seriousness is well above my pay grade.
Use less drugs maybe?