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The Decline of '20% Time' at Google

One of the things Google is known for is giving their employees so-called '20% time' — that is, the freedom to use a fifth of their working hours to pursue their own projects. Many of these projects have directly improved Google's existing products, and some have spawned new products entirely. An article at Quartz on Friday made that claim that 20% time was all but dead at Google, largely due to interference from upper management. Some Google engineers responded, and said that it has essentially turned into 120% time — they're still free to undertake their own projects, but they typically need their whole normal work week to meet productivity goals. "What 20% time really means is that you- as a Google eng- have access to, and can use, Google’s compute infrastructure to experiment and build new systems. The infrastructure, and the associated software tools, can be leveraged in 20% time to make an eng far more productive than they normally would be." An article at Ars makes the case that this is not necessarily a bad thing, because Google has enough good products that simply need iteration now, making the more innovative 20% time less useful. "Google wasn’t hurting for successful products when it started to tout its 20 percent time: off the backs of its pre-IPO services, it earned a market cap of over $23 billion. But if it was a company that wanted to grow and diversify beyond products that were either related to search or derivative of what already existed, it needed more ideas, better ideas, as quickly as possible. Hence, liberal use of 20 percent time made a lot of sense. Now, Google is not only an enormous company of nearly 45,000 employees with a market cap twelve times that of its first IPO ($286 billion), it has a lot of big products that it wants to make work. More than it needs more ideas, it needs to make the ideas it has great."

198 comments

  1. Object lesson by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

    The stock market kills companies.

    1. Re: Object lesson by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      So true!

    2. Re:Object lesson by EvanED · · Score: 1

      It's not the stock market: it's size.

    3. Re:Object lesson by alen · · Score: 3, Funny

      so why did google go public if its so bad?
      why couldn't there be a geek charity fund to raise $5 billion or so to give out to the original employees to cash out their hard work?

    4. Re:Object lesson by Opportunist · · Score: 4, Interesting

      Because money is tempting. Imagine this, there is a LOT of money (use your own definition of LOT) being dangled in front of you with the promise to not take any direct influence in your decisions. Hey, as long as I hold 50%+1 of the company I call the shots, right?

      It usually doesn't take long to realize that those 50-1% hold a LOT of power over you when they can afford losing them and you cannot.

      --
      We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
    5. Re:Object lesson by bondsbw · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Shareholders want to turn as much profit as they can in as short a time frame as can be done.

      Going public is a great way to slowly kill a good company. Many shareholders don't care where the company is in 10 years; they care about their dollar in one year. When the stocks start on a permanent trend downwards, those shareholders sell and move to the next company that has potential in the near term.

      --
      All my liberal friends think I'm a conservative, all my conservative friends think I'm a liberal.
    6. Re:Object lesson by EvanED · · Score: 5, Informative

      There are laws and rules that require publicly traded companies to maximize stockholder profit.

      No no no no!

      It's not really true. It's not completely false to talk about the need of public companies to take into consideration , but there are significant problems with the argument most of the time you see someone trot out that line. Shareholder wealth maximization is a consideration, but is by far need not be be-all, end-all goal from a legal perspective. This is particularly true in this scenario of 20% time, because if the board thought that 20% time was a good thing to have from the company's perspective, they would be completely allowed to implement it.

      "While the duty to maximize shareholder value may be a useful shorthand for a corporate manager to think about how to act on a day to day basis, this is not legally required or enforceable. The only constraint on board decision making is a pair of duties â" the âoeduty of careâ and the âoeduty of loyalty.â The duty of care requires boards to be well informed and to make deliberate decisions after careful consideration of the issues. Importantly, board members are entitled to rely on experts and corporate officers for their information, can easily comply with duty of care obligations by spending shareholder money on lawyers and process, and, in any event, are routinely indemnified against damages for any breaches of this duty. The duty of loyalty self evidently requires board members to put the interests of the corporation ahead of their own personal interest."

      "But if shareholder value thinking is counterproductive, how did it become so prevalent? Non-experts often assume the approach is rooted in law, and that public companies are legally required to maximize profits and shareholder returns. This is pure myth. Thanks to a legal doctrine called the business judgment rule, corporate directors who refrain from using corporate funds to line their own pockets remain legally free to pursue almost any other objective, including providing secure jobs to employees, quality products for consumers and research and tax revenues to benefit society."

      "[Dodge vs. Ford Motor Company] is frequently cited as support for the idea that "corporate law requires boards of directors to maximize shareholder wealth." The following articles attempt to refute that interpretation. ... In that context, the Dodge decision is viewed as a mixed result for both sides of the dispute. Ford was denied the ability to arbitrarily undermine the profitability of the firm, and thereby eliminate future dividends. Under the upheld business judgment rule, however, Ford was given considerable leeway via control of his board about what investments he could make. That left him with considerable influence over dividends, but not as complete control as he wished."

      "Many of us have heard that corporations are legally required to maximize shareholder value. Guess what, they are not. The law in the United States does not require management to maximize shareholder value (except under rare circumstances such as when the company gets put up for sale). This may surprise you because you've also probably also heard that shareholders own the corporation. That's not true either."

      And finally, to make things ever more interesting:

      "In case law speak, judicial commentary articulating an opinion and not decisive to the case is known as "dicta" and is not binding in the court of law. The comments that have made Dodge v. Ford the si

    7. Re:Object lesson by Jane+Q.+Public · · Score: 2
      There are two things wrong with what the article states. The first, is that it goes on and on about how Google just doesn't do it anymore. Which is a clear example of circular reasoning: "We don't need it anymore because we aren't doing it anymore."

      The second thing is the last part of OP's post:

      "More than it needs more ideas, it needs to make the ideas it has great."

      This is a nonsensical statement. You don't "make an idea great". It either is or isn't. You can make a plan or a business great, but ideas, by definition, stand on their own, or not.

      In fact Google is rather infamous for taking lots of pretty good ideas and driving them into the ground... perhaps for precisely the reason that they were trying to follow some misguided notion of "making the ideas better".

      All in all, it sounds rather like an apologia for a company that has grown more like a cancer than a weed, and is now more of an evil Frankenstein's monster than it is a Jolly Green Giant.

    8. Re:Object lesson by siride · · Score: 2

      I think the phrase "make a good idea great" means to implement it effectively and come up with closely related good ideas so that the net result of the original good idea is beyond what a baseline, minimal implementation would effect.

    9. Re:Object lesson by davester666 · · Score: 2

      It's just how the whole stock market/analyst reports/etc are reported/portrayed in North America.

      Meet the numbers that a bunch of random guys have made up as to how much you "should" have sold this quarter, or your stock price drops because a bunch of hedge funds have decided that the random guys know more about running your business than you do.

      --
      Sleep your way to a whiter smile...date a dentist!
    10. Re:Object lesson by FuzzNugget · · Score: 1

      Addendum: soul-sucking PHBs ruin everything.

    11. Re:Object lesson by jd2112 · · Score: 1

      Many shareholders don't care where the company is in 10 years; they care about their dollar in one year.

      If only it were that long term. At best most shareholders care only about where the stock is next quarter. Some only care where it is next week. Some not even that long.

      --
      Any insufficiently advanced magic is indistinguishable from technology.
    12. Re:Object lesson by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Time to sell Google stock. They will look back and say they peaked in 2013, and wonder why.

    13. Re:Object lesson by Jane+Q.+Public · · Score: 1

      "I think the phrase "make a good idea great" means to implement it effectively and come up with closely related good ideas so that the net result of the original good idea is beyond what a baseline, minimal implementation would effect."

      It might. But part of my point is that Google just hasn't shown itself to be any damned good at that. Out of maybe 100 "good ideas" that Google has had its hands on over the last 20 years or so (if I sat down with pencil and paper and some old blog posts, I might find that many... that we have known about), it has managed to take maybe 2 or maybe 3 good ideas and run with them. The rest it squandered or actively killed off.

      And those 2 or 3 are already about as developed as they will get. In fact, people are actually rebelling against them now: user-tracking for "targeted ads", abuse of search data, corporate lock-in of supposedly "open" products... etc. Hell, Google has already Googlified Google Glass too much, to the point that I predict it will be dead in the water. People are about to start using Augmented Reality on their phones in earnest, and don't need to wear it on their heads, with Google services being pushed into their eyes and ears all the time.

    14. Re:Object lesson by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "More than it needs more ideas, it needs to make the ideas it has great."

      Considering Google shutters many of its publicly-available products without much notice and certainly little recourse by the users the quoted statement is code-worded corporate-speak for "you engineers need to generate more revenue for the Google".

    15. Re:Object lesson by siride · · Score: 1

      I was only picking that one part of your post, since I'm linguistically minded. I don't disagree with any of what you say and it's saddened me that Google has squandered so many great opportunities.

    16. Re:Object lesson by mattmarlowe · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Your refutal of the maxime shareholder profit argument may be technically correct, but it's probably simplistic....whenever an officer of a company makes a decision that can be questioned as not maximizing profit, he is opening himself up to the possibility of a shareholder lawsuit. If the officer is the CEO, the risks are even greater.

      So guess what happens...the ceo is advised by his lawyer how to behave, the ceo advises his subordinate managers how to behave, and the a new culture trickles down...

      No one is to blame but the system here.

    17. Re:Object lesson by hairyfeet · · Score: 1

      Well duh! Just look at MSFT, Ballmer has been shooting the company in the face for the past few years because the Wall Street pundits keep screaming "Apple mobile synergy wharrgarbl" and has blown something like 40 billion in the process while the stock stays flat. The simple fact is that Wall Street is completely broken thanks to the massive bubble the government has been blowing since the 80s and until that bursts the stock market is worthless as an indicator of value, its just got too much money chasing too few stocks, hell its more like Vegas than investing anymore.

      As for why killing 20% time is retarded, they never hear of Yahoo? or MySpace? Once upon a time like Google they were the top of the heap but then they sat on ass and didn't prepare for the future and when the next new thing came out they were completely blindsided and went down the toilet pretty damned quickly. What is hot today does NOT guarantee you are gonna be hot tomorrow and with the Internet there is ZERO loyalty, again see MySpace. Having all that R&D kept new ideas and products in the pipelines which is the lifeblood of tech and if they don't watch it some little upstart will come along with the next new thing and they can join Altavista and AOL on the "Hey you remember when?" pile.

      --
      ACs don't waste your time replying, your posts are never seen by me.
    18. Re:Object lesson by DerekLyons · · Score: 4, Informative

      so why did google go public if its so bad?

      Because they handed out stock options left and right, and ended up with enough people holding enough vested options that the rules said they had to go public. But even, they pulled a fast one - the GOOG traded on the market are lower class shares... with no dividend, ownership, or voting rights. All of higher class shares with all those rights are held by a very small number of people - early Google insiders, investors, and VC's.

    19. Re:Object lesson by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Big companies don't do innovation well, except in terms of what Apple did with unifying a small fragmented marketplace behind one product. (Arguably, that's the same thing IBM did with the PC in 1980). While Wall Street's emphasis on quarterly results is a factor, I suspect the main reason is that it's hard to make an aircraft carrier maneuver like a 25 foot sailboat.

      So what these companies do instead is buy startups that are geared towards innovation. That's what IBM and Oracle have spent the last 15 years (at least) doing, and it's also how Google has acquired a lot of its most successful products, excluding search.

      Some counterexamples: Bell Labs and Xerox Parc in the '70s. How well did that turn out for their respective corporate parents?

    20. Re:Object lesson by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      If it was a legal mandate to maximize shareholder profit then Apple wouldn't have been allowed to leave that giant pile of cash sitting around doing nothing while Jobs was alive. According to your theory they would have had to buy a bunch of startups or pay it all out as dividends. Now they are doing that, but only because activist investors were able to bully Cook into it in a way they couldn't with Jobs.

    21. Re: Object lesson by Cryacin · · Score: 1

      This comes down to the discovery that ideas are an expense. Until the execution of the idea has been implemented, an idea just burns money. Ideas are plenty, especially in Google since for quite some time now, there has been a surplus generated by financial and cultural encouragement.

      Google has realised that now it needs to focus in on execution rather than get more expenses. It is the unfortunate reality of making a profit, rather than an endless and inefficient reinvestment cycle.

      --
      Science advances one funeral at a time- Max Planck
    22. Re:Object lesson by rolfwind · · Score: 1

      But those shareholders don't have real power compared to the long term invested who vote and the big players in the long terms.

    23. Re:Object lesson by lightknight · · Score: 1

      Actually, the lesson should be that stock prices, and fluctuations thereof, should be taken with a grain of salt; and that while Wall St. is very good at supplying capital, and demanding results, it knows jack shit about actually running a company.

      Let me put it to you this way: are your new business leaders telling you to cut back on buffers / redundant systems for your company? Are these the same people responsible for Wall St. having to resort to 'circuit breakers' and transaction processing (do overs), because the people using those systems are so...unsteady at times...that rollbacks of an entire day's worth of fricking trading is needed because of a miskey? While individual companies are cutting back on redundant systems (essentially buffers : insurance against mistakes, and costly ones at that), Wall St. itself is multiplying and adding to its own systems to counter that very same kind of damage. If you were the CEO of a company, and were told by some 'tea leaf' readers (prophets of the marketplace) that "you need to do the opposite of what they are, in actual fact, doing, to please the market," what would you do? If you're a non-thinking entity, then you'd follow their directions, and watch your company crumble in a few years; if you're a thinking entity, you'd already know whether your level of proofing against catastrophe was comfortable enough or not...as well as how comfortable you are with your fortune on the line if it fails.

      --
      I am John Hurt.
    24. Re:Object lesson by rolfwind · · Score: 1

      Just to nitpick but Google is only 15 years old, not twenty.

      I would agree about other ideas being mature. Gmail was/used to be great in it's simplicity (just like google search was) but they keep adding bells and whistle and stupid shit. I wish I could have both back minus the added bullshit.

    25. Re:Object lesson by lightknight · · Score: 2

      For the same reason that keeping a pet dragon sounds like an awesome idea while it's young and small, and not so awesome when it's older, way bigger than you and someone forgot to feed it while you were on vacation (gotta feed them properly, or they get aggressive).

      In other words, Google thought it was a great idea, like most young companies...and at first, it was. Then, before it noticed anything, it woke up one day with the NSA sharing its data-center, its geek utopia turned into corporate dystopia, and all sorts of unhappiness infiltrating it from all levels. The 20% time for personal projects, or rather, lack thereof, means that Google won't be coming out with anything ground-breaking for a while....because the most outstanding inventions are the ones that inventors are never looking for (Archimedes and the bath tub)...in other words, the mental fields need to lay fallow for a bit for a better yield...and the fact that Google's techs are spending all their time just holding onto what they have means they have both a management problem (communications is not only gummed up, but completely red-taped, in all probability...too much dead-wood) and a personnel problem (they need to hire more people; more programmers, but also more people in other areas, in all probability...but none of that matters if management isn't fixed first).

      --
      I am John Hurt.
    26. Re:Object lesson by Billly+Gates · · Score: 1

      But those shareholders don't have real power compared to the long term invested who vote and the big players in the long terms.

      One word. Icahn!

      Those shareholders can fire the CEO and force changes. HP and Yahoo are all examples. Yahoo actually was making some money again when they fired Wang. Icahn wanted a numbers guru instead of a techie to move things with creative accounting.

    27. Re:Object lesson by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Different types of shares is a scam that needs to be done away with.

    28. Re:Object lesson by XcepticZP · · Score: 1

      I'm sure there are a lot of bright economists out there that might know a whole lot more than I do on this. But to me, it seems as if a lot of the greedy profit motive these days is being driven by a fear of losing out on inflation. Especially the short time frame aspect you speak of.

      If our currency is constantly reducing in value, then we are going to try very very hard to make sure that every single piece of capital we have lying around is making us money, in order to "beat" inflation. Even more so when so many of these actual "stocks" aren't owned by individual people. They're probably mostly owned by funds, which have an incentive to drive up the value of their stocks. And they do that because most people pick funds in their individual category by their "growth" in value. Again, the only reason why people want 'growth' in their portfolios/funds is because they have to beat inflation.

    29. Re:Object lesson by schnell · · Score: 2

      At best most shareholders care only about where the stock is next quarter.

      I hear this a lot on Slashdot but it's just not true (depending on how you define "most"). The majority of publicly traded shares out there are in the hands of large mutual funds and banks. These are absolutely long-term investors - they want as little volatility as possible and they have a strong interest in picking companies that match their investment profile ("growth companies," "low risk companies with dividends," whatever) and sticking with them.

      Day trading individuals and HFT arbitrageurs etc. only care about day to day or hour to hour. They may command a lot of attention, but they really aren't a big part of the market unless you're talking about penny stocks, pink sheets or other exchanges that the "big boys" of investment don't want to touch.

      --
      "95% of all Slashdot .sig quotes are incorrect or completely fabricated." -Benjamin Franklin
    30. Re:Object lesson by b4dc0d3r · · Score: 1

      While generally true, how is that observation relevant here?

      Google does not need to pay people 1/5 of their salaries to hack on random projects whetheir offerings are mature, and between android and chromebook they have plenty of actual development on real products.

      They are unlikely to die from this, and if they need to it is easily reinstated.

      Knee jerk much?

    31. Re:Object lesson by girlintraining · · Score: 1

      The majority of publicly traded shares out there are in the hands of large mutual funds and banks. These are absolutely long-term investors - they want as little volatility as possible and they have a strong interest in picking companies that match their investment profile ("growth companies," "low risk companies with dividends," whatever) and sticking with them.

      Portfolios allow companies to mix high and low risk companies to create an aggregate. And that's what most of the mutual funds and banks you're talking about do, though the actual names and products are rather complicated mixtures. But your assertion that they only pick companies fitting a certain profile is incorrect; Or that they don't make short-term decisions. It is possible to achieve long term growth through a series of short-term actions. In fact... it's essential.

      It is the difference between a tactic, and a strategy.

      --
      #fuckbeta #iamslashdot #dicemustdie
    32. Re:Object lesson by shutdown+-p+now · · Score: 1

      Day trading individuals and HFT arbitrageurs etc. only care about day to day or hour to hour. They may command a lot of attention, but they really aren't a big part of the market

      Wikipedia says HFT was 50% of the overall trading volume in terms of equity in 2012.

    33. Re:Object lesson by smellotron · · Score: 1

      HFT guys usually go home as close to flat as possible. Even if they are a large portion of the daily trading volume, they have effectively zero long-term ownership, so they don't influence long-term management decisions or valuation for the individual companies they trade.

    34. Re:Object lesson by stenvar · · Score: 0

      Shareholder wealth maximization is a consideration, but is by far need not be be-all, end-all goal from a legal perspective

      But from an economic perspective, it is, and should be, the major driving force behind everything a company does.

      Many of us have heard that corporations are legally required to maximize shareholder value. Guess what, they are not. The law in the United States does not require management to maximize shareholder value

      Of course not. Corporations can be established for many purposes. But management has to be honest and accountable for what it is doing. If it isn't maximizing shareholder value, it better be crystal clear about it, and in that case, shareholders are likely to leave.

    35. Re:Object lesson by houghi · · Score: 3, Funny

      If you could have Bill Gates' money or solve world hunger, what color would your Ferrari be?

      --
      Don't fight for your country, if your country does not fight for you.
    36. Re:Object lesson by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      There are laws and rules that require publicly traded companies to maximize stockholder profit.

      It's not really true. It's not completely false to talk about the need of public companies to take into consideration , but there are significant problems with the argument most of the time you see someone trot out that line. Shareholder wealth maximization is a consideration, but is by far need not be be-all, end-all goal from a legal perspective.

      To be fair to people making that argument, this is something which varies between jurisdictions. Under English law, for instance, directors are fiduciaries of the shareholders and are required to always act in the shareholders' best interests, regardless of the interests of the ``company'',its employees, or society at large. Even under American law, it's fairly common for a company's articles of incorporation or stockmarket prospectus to say that it'll always act to maximise shareholder profits, and those do create real obligations for the company's senior management.

      Admittedly, though, none of this makes a great deal of difference in practice. They have a fair amount of flexibility in how they interpret that obligation, and judges will assume that directors are experts in their company's workings unless given strong evidence otherwise, so saying something like ``20% time costs us money in the short term, but the savings in recruitment and retention mean that it'll be good for shareholders in the long term'' is perfectly fine. That's especially true if they're talking about a policy which most shareholders should have known about before they bought in. Short-term profit maximisation is never legally required; it happens because it's socially expected and, in lots of cases, because it's written into the managers' employment contracts.

    37. Re:Object lesson by Dcnjoe60 · · Score: 1

      The stock market kills companies.

      It's not really the stock market, but the shareholders/board of directors. As long as the company you create is privately held, you get to call the shots. Once it is public, the board of directors calls the shots. Your vision may have been "Don't be evil" theirs is "Make me money". The two don't necessarily coexist. They could, but usually don't.

    38. Re:Object lesson by Chris+Mattern · · Score: 1

      Wikipedia says HFT was 50% of the overall trading volume in terms of equity in 2012.

      Well, duh. High Frequency Trading produces large trading volumes. That's hardly a surprise. The question is, how much of the market they hold? If we assume HFTs trade a holding an average of twice a day (on days when the market is open), and others trade an average of once every six months, we come out that HFTs hold about 0.2% of the market. Not very impressive.

    39. Re:Object lesson by Raenex · · Score: 1

      But even, they pulled a fast one - the GOOG traded on the market are lower class shares... with no dividend, ownership, or voting rights.

      This doesn't make any sense. Who would buy a share without the possibility of receiving dividends? You're also wrong about no voting rights, though they did skew the rights 10 to 1 in favor of the Google founder shares. Only very recently were they cleared to issue a new class of non-voting stock.

    40. Re:Object lesson by Sponge+Bath · · Score: 1

      ...what color would your Ferrari be?

      Banana.

    41. Re:Object lesson by TechNeilogy · · Score: 1

      It's the old, old story: the suits take over and the innovation moves on to the next garage.

      --
      "The wisdom of the Patriarchs was that they *knew* they were fools." --Master Foo
    42. Re:Object lesson by Opportunist · · Score: 1

      Hmm... need it be world hunger or may I choose my project? I might do without money for some "good deeds", but solving world hunger would possibly be the worst thing that I could bestow on humanity. Or at the very least, the planet that is infested with it.

      --
      We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
    43. Re:Object lesson by edibobb · · Score: 1

      How so? The next quarter's revenue is the only thing that matters.

    44. Re:Object lesson by Immerman · · Score: 1

      What's bad for the planet is bad for humanity. (multi-generational delays may apply.)

      The corollary being what's good for the planet is probably good for humanity - a 95% fatal plague sweeping through humanity would be a horrible thing, but it would also immediately solve almost all of the problems we're currently facing. And if the survivors managed to hold on to modern technology and the basics of civilization then in a century or two it might well be looked back on as a godsend.

      --
      --- Most topics have many sides worth arguing, allow me to take one opposite you.
    45. Re:Object lesson by JeffAtl · · Score: 1

      This doesn't make any sense. Who would buy a share without the possibility of receiving dividends?

      The many investors that just want the stock price to go up. Very few investors care anything about dividends.

    46. Re:Object lesson by Raenex · · Score: 1

      The many investors that just want the stock price to go up.

      But people buy stock on the premise that dividends can be handed out. Take away the premise and the stock is almost worthless.

    47. Re:Object lesson by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You buy the stock because you think it will go up in value and you can sell it for a profit.

      There are many publicly traded shares that don't pay dividends.

    48. Re:Object lesson by russotto · · Score: 2

      But people buy stock on the premise that dividends can be handed out. Take away the premise and the stock is almost worthless.

      From Google's initial prospectus:

      We do not intend to pay dividends on our common stock.

      We have never declared or paid any cash dividend on our capital stock. We currently intend to retain any future earnings and do not expect to pay any dividends in the foreseeable future.

      From Google's investor FAQ:

      Does Google pay a cash dividend?

      No, we have never declared or paid a cash dividend nor do we expect to pay any cash dividends in the foreseeable future.

      So, if you buy GOOG expecting a dividend, you simply haven't done your homework.

    49. Re:Object lesson by F1re · · Score: 1

      I think it's fine as long as there is no deception. What I don't understand is why people will buy shares like that?

      --
      ...there is no sig...
    50. Re:Object lesson by Jane+Q.+Public · · Score: 1

      Yes, I stand corrected.

    51. Re:Object lesson by Raenex · · Score: 1

      That's very interesting. I'll note the caveats "currently" and "foreseeable future", so it's possible they will. There's also been murmurings about this happening because they are sitting on so much cash.

      To me, without the possibility of dividends it's a pyramid scheme. You buy the stock because the company is doing well, but unless it happens to be gobbled up by a bigger company, without dividends you buy because you expect somebody else to buy as the company grows. The whole thing is built on air, and the real profits go to exorbitant salaries.

    52. Re:Object lesson by Jane+Q.+Public · · Score: 1

      Yes, and I acknowledge the point you made. I do think that's what OP meant. But what I was saying is that he is wrong.

    53. Re:Object lesson by mattack2 · · Score: 1

      I see why you make the analogy to a pyramid scheme, but I don't think it's completely accurate.

      If you're not making dividends, if you hold the stock long, yes, you are expecting the price to go up so you can sell later to someone else at a higher price than you paid for it. But nobody is being 'paid out' by new investors as in a pyramid scheme. The total # of shares is constant at a given time. (Yes, companies can and do make new shares "out of thin air", but it's still different than a pyramid scheme having no limit whatsoever to "investors".)

      Plus, if you DON'T think a company is doing well/is going to grow, you can SHORT it, and make money on its stock price going down.

    54. Re:Object lesson by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      he is opening himself up to the possibility of a shareholder lawsuit. If the officer is the CEO, the risks are even greater.

      And their attorney(s) will paid for out of the company coffers...

  2. Do more for less by Billly+Gates · · Score: 2

    Isn't that what the MBAs and metric gurus teach?

    Once again the Excel numbers make the day and if there is a hidden cost or an opportunity cost then it doesn't exist according to the CPA

    1. Re:Do more for less by ILongForDarkness · · Score: 5, Insightful

      What that often translates into is: do stuff we aren't paying you for. Why can't the staff handle their own secretarial needs? Why can't they clean up their own workspace, get their own supplies from storage, install their own software etc etc. We take what was before someone elses full time job and just tack it on to everyone else's day but don't reduce the productivity expectations to compensate.

    2. Re:Do more for less by Billly+Gates · · Score: 4, Interesting

      What is productivity? How do you define productivity?

      My point is you can work for gmail and do your metrics to hit your spam filtering code. But, what if the next big idea is there that can generate more revenue. Would it then be wise to work on better spam filtering for your gmail users or would it make more sense to fund something that no one has done yet and that Microsoft or Apple will invent and then patent the shit out of instead?

      That was my point. I have worked at companies where they are were sooo process oriented that we just put out fires and no one could ever call out sick or go on vacation or the whole operation would shutdown.

      The good employees left and they had to bring in H1B1 because they were cheaper and would have no quram working 65 hours a week just to remain employed. Work 40 hours a week you were fired for being lazy. No improvements and no say were allowed outside of the directors as we had no time to do anything else. We just put out fires and worked 120% to keep our jobs. That might have worked for the previous CEO to gain his bonus but the company is losing over a 1 billion a year now!

    3. Re:Do more for less by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Productivity is easy to measure: it's the amount of profit made per hour of effort put in to obtain that profit.

    4. Re:Do more for less by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Productivity is easy to measure: it's the amount of profit made per hour of effort put in to obtain that profit.

      Well gmail today makes money.

      It did not when it was a side project. Productivity is about stats and the side stuff takes longer to produce the revenue than the accounting version which is by quarter. You can trip on the quarters to grab the pennies so to speak with your formal definition as you can't tell what makes money doesn't automatically make it a cost center.

    5. Re:Do more for less by Tough+Love · · Score: 1

      It's a good thing. Google has already defeated Microsoft and Apple, and now is a monopolist itself. Google will eventually need to be defeated itself, so it is fortunate for all of us that that is already happening as it evolves into a less attractive place to work. Giant trees grow in the forest so that less successful trees die in their shade, but eventually rot from inside and fall so that young trees can grow to their full height.

      OK astromods, have at. But it's nothing less than the truth.

      --
      When all you have is a hammer, every problem starts to look like a thumb.
    6. Re:Do more for less by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I don't know. Do you have an MBA?
      Can you tell us what the MBAs teach?
      Are you a CPA, can you tell us what CPAs do?

      Please, lets hear some more detail.

    7. Re:Do more for less by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Productivity is easy to measure: it's the amount of profit made per hour of effort put in to obtain that profit.

      That works for products that are entirely made by a single person. If two people are involved, that way of measuring tells you their combined productivity, but it doesn't tell you how to divide that productivity to each of them individually. The only place where productivity measuring is a real thing is in big companies, yet your suggestion only works in 1-man companies.

    8. Re:Do more for less by Ellie+K · · Score: 1

      Isn't that what the MBAs and metric gurus teach? Once again the Excel numbers make the day and if there is a hidden cost or an opportunity cost then it doesn't exist according to the CPA

      Metric gurus teach that. MBAs who have a clue do not.

      If a company is in terrible financial condition, losing money, making unreliable products etc. THEN it is time for the Excel spreadsheets and CPA's to say, "Look, you can make payroll for another x weeks, but if you don't turn things around, fast, you'll need to dismiss staff, sell company assets and equipment to survive." In that scenario, the 20% time to work on projects needs to end, temporarily, until the company is more solvent.. Google is far from being in that situation though.

      --
      tempus fugit
    9. Re:Do more for less by ILongForDarkness · · Score: 1

      Productivity sadly is usually defined as percentage of time where the employee has their ass in their seat doing the job that matches their job description. This is due to in my mind (I have a MMSci degree so am pretty close to being a pointheaded bastard myself) MBA schools obsession with metrics. It works fine when you are building identical widgets and you can clearly see that Bob's 67 a day is much better than Carl's 52. But it falls on its ass when it comes to measuring innovation projects. That guy picking his nose for 7.5hrs a day might get more done in the other 30min then the rest of the department does all day because ideas don't generally come on demand or require a fixed amount of "effort" to come to from person to person (or even just the randomness of an individual). But that won't stop the MBA from coming in and saying clearly the nose picker has to go because he only works 30min a day and our network graph shows that he isn't the best connected node.

    10. Re: Do more for less by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I have an MBA, and can tell you what they teach: "Maximize shareholder's value"
      This the ultimate purpose that supersedes all other considerations. This is also the main reason all companies are run into the ground as soon as the founder leaves (my observation, was not part of a course)

    11. Re:Do more for less by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Isn't that what the MBAs and metric gurus teach?

      Once again the Excel numbers make the day and if there is a hidden cost or an opportunity cost then it doesn't exist according to the CPA

      Metrics are fine if you choose the one metric than matters. Sadly the Microsoft Excel jockeys bury their heads in spreadsheets ignoring the consequences on employee morale.

    12. Re:Do more for less by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Productivity metrics will show the nose picker as the right man for the job.

      If the others can't do as good then they need to be fired. Metrics insure accountability which is lacking today in the workplace. Studies show workers waste up to 30% of their time on the internet and potty breaks on company time!

    13. Re:Do more for less by jez9999 · · Score: 1

      Google has already defeated Microsoft and Apple

      Yep, that must be why MS and Apple are bankrupt and about to go out of business...

    14. Re:Do more for less by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      In a development company, it doesn't make sense for engineers to be loading their own development machines every time something goes bad. They need to make a phone call and have a clean machine within an hour, not begin the installation of an OS, followed by a long chain of applications. When I worked in a software corporation, people that contributed to what went into the box had their time protected. I did make a sense of sorts.

    15. Re:Do more for less by Tamerlin · · Score: 1

      If you lose the sugarcoating, you'll realize that the actual productivity metric has nothing to do with whether or not a given employee is doing what their job describes. It's simply based on how many hours they're on the clock.

      The management has yet another incentive for having staff under them working overtime consistently: it gives the management an excuse to recruit more people for their team, which leads to their getting promoted, so they can leach off of even more people.

      Google is yet more evidence that profit kills innovation.

    16. Re:Do more for less by ILongForDarkness · · Score: 1

      I think IPOs kill innovation. When a company is new they are still searching for the best market and best product to meet that market. As soon as they take on a bunch of investor money it becomes lets get something out the door so we can start milking it. Doesn't have to be great it just has to meet the quarterly street estimate.

    17. Re:Do more for less by Tamerlin · · Score: 1

      I think IPOs kill innovation. When a company is new they are still searching for the best market and best product to meet that market. As soon as they take on a bunch of investor money it becomes lets get something out the door so we can start milking it. Doesn't have to be great it just has to meet the quarterly street estimate.

      Profit kills innovation. I agree with you, but even private companies tend to become increasingly risk averse and therefore innovation resistant when their profits grow.

      The most obviously visible example of the death of innovation as a direct result of profit is hollywood.

  3. innovator's dilemma in action by ILongForDarkness · · Score: 1

    Now that they got a product they want to stop looking for new ones. When people move on from android to something else, when browser vendors have a way to search the web without relying on Google and friends etc Google will have no replacement products.

    R&D isn't something that is ever done. You can't just say: we have a product now so lets cut the expense of the engineering department. Your competitors are always looking to leapfrog you or make your entire business obsolete. That is why you hire smart people and pay them to keep thinking.

    1. Re:innovator's dilemma in action by Billly+Gates · · Score: 2

      Now that they got a product they want to stop looking for new ones. When people move on from android to something else, when browser vendors have a way to search the web without relying on Google and friends etc Google will have no replacement products.

      R&D isn't something that is ever done. You can't just say: we have a product now so lets cut the expense of the engineering department. Your competitors are always looking to leapfrog you or make your entire business obsolete. That is why you hire smart people and pay them to keep thinking.

      More like the MBAs dilemma here.

      The problem is traditionally the upper management guys were all engineers and scientists as the MBA program was to teach business skills to non business majors so they could lead companies.

      Today, these institutions are led by cost accountants and Wall Street Financial gurus. The emphasis now is on quarterly profits and crazy ways to get there like firing all the good employees and replacing them with Chinese and cheaper Indian counterparts. Selling your assets which make you money (like AMD) etc and kissing up with Icahn and others and busting unions to reach these numbers.

      All the while ignoring the opportunity costs such as good employees who have the power to gain another job will simply leave when it turns into this or when your competitors like Intel can make faster chips because they can use .22 nm dies and you are screwed with .38nm because you sold your assets for you bonus remember?

      We see it with health insurance too. The doctors need to call the CPAs at the insurance companies for treatment. The CPAs also were the ones who blew up the Deep Water Horizon too and made engineering decisions so they can appease Wall Street and the CEO for his bonus.

      Until this changes I do not know what the solution is other than to stay private or have several investors but not HFT computers and cost accountants make your critical business decisions. Google is heading down this route and will decline as emphasis is now on cost cutting and keeping what you have. My guess is within 5 to 10 years it will be an Indian company and will outsource cheaper employees or bring H1B1 visas in and devalue their talent to keep the share price going up. Meanwhile Bing will take over or a more agile competitor?

      We will see

    2. Re: innovator's dilemma in action by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You don't need new products if you have a social component to your existing products. Why do you think Gooogle + is such a big deal?

    3. Re:innovator's dilemma in action by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You can't just say: we have a product now so lets cut the expense of the engineering department. Your competitors are always looking to leapfrog you or make your entire business obsolete. That is why you hire smart people and pay them to keep thinking.

      Worse yet, non-competes are not really enforceable below a certain level in California (i.e. you have to have negotiated a specific contract, not just signed the one they required you to.) So if Google stops putting money into the R&D side and starts milking its existing products, its competitors will be comprised of, largely, ex-Google engineers.

    4. Re:innovator's dilemma in action by ILongForDarkness · · Score: 1

      20% time can be used to work for yourself I guess :) I really don't like non-competes. From what I gather from what I've read on the subject in a lot of jurisdictions they get rejected when challenged its just employees often never think to challenge them and it is a little late when you've quit your job and have started building a company to find out if you own something or not.

      The thing is if a non-compete is too broad it can be challenged on the grounds that it prevents you from performing your profession (which it does). I once worked for a small startup in the anti-spam space, and while I think if I was going to work for another division within one of these companies the company would be fine (everyone was on very friendly terms) their non-compete included: MacAfee, Norton, Yahoo, Google, Microsoft and others. You sign on because at the moment you aren't particularly committed or knowledgeable to a particular industry. But say 10 years from now you've decided that spam fighting is your reason for living and you are recognized internationally for your skills in that area? I'm pretty sure you could successful challenge that non-compete because it effectively prevents you from working for any relevant company in that space. It would be like a hospital making a heart surgeon sign a contract saying they won't work for any other hospitals that do heart surgeries after they leave. Sure they are still a surgeon and probably could take up general surgery instead but you do have a right to exercise your expertise in your specific occupation. On the flipside say I got an offer from Microsoft to work on the XBox team I'm pretty sure I could challenge the non-compete because I wouldn't actually be competing and given they size of MS in particular areas (databases, OS, game consoles etc) it would be excluding me from large parts of the job market without reason.

  4. bad thing for who? by Trepidity · · Score: 5, Insightful

    An article at Ars makes the case that this is not necessarily a bad thing, because Google has enough good products that simply need iteration now, making the more innovative 20% time less useful.

    A change from a work environment where you can spend 20% of your time experimenting with new ideas you have, and 80% working on the "regular" mainline products, to one where you're expected to spend at least 100% of a regular workweek iterating on the "regular" products, seems like a bad thing from the perspective of the engineer at least. Ars seems to be arguing that it's not necessarily a bad thing for Google's stockholders, which is a pretty different question.

    1. Re:bad thing for who? by Bob9113 · · Score: 2

      ...seems like a bad thing from the perspective of the engineer at least. Ars seems to be arguing that it's not necessarily a bad thing for Google's stockholders, which is a pretty different question.

      Same thing I came in here to say. Ars' argument seems about as on-target as saying, "Warrantless NSA surveillance of all Americans' Internet activity isn't necessarily a bad thing, because the NSA wants to know what you read."

    2. Re:bad thing for who? by Tough+Love · · Score: 1

      Obviously, the correct response for engineers is to do exactly what is required during working hours and nothing more. If there are great ideas, work them out on your own time, cash your earn out units and start a business with some like minded escapees. The MBAs get what they deserve.

      --
      When all you have is a hammer, every problem starts to look like a thumb.
    3. Re:bad thing for who? by Savage-Rabbit · · Score: 1

      A change from a work environment where you can spend 20% of your time experimenting with new ideas you have, and 80% working on the "regular" mainline products, to one where you're expected to spend at least 100% of a regular workweek iterating on the "regular" products, seems like a bad thing from the perspective of the engineer at least. Ars seems to be arguing that it's not necessarily a bad thing for Google's stockholders, which is a pretty different question.

      What? That Google is moving from innovation towards stagnation? If people are not being paid to innovate most of them are sure as hell not going to do it for free on their own time when they can spend that same time with their families. Google will become a stagnant empire that lives off it's established products just like Microsoft did until the world changes on them and somebody more innovative creeps up on them and steals their thunder.

      --
      Only to idiots, are orders laws.
      -- Henning von Tresckow
    4. Re:bad thing for who? by Bill_the_Engineer · · Score: 2

      Then there is the possibility of the "pieces of flair" (from Office Space) dilemma. As in your manager saying "I see you put the minimum number of hours of work here at Google. See Tommy over there? He puts in an extra 15% of work time on special projects. I can't tell you to work for free, but look how enthusiastic Tommy is about his job".

      You become torn between working for free on something that could make Google money or going home at a decent hour. Your decision could cause you to suffer financially by being passed over for promotions by people who did innovative work for free.

      --
      These comments are my own and do not necessarily reflect the views or opinions of my employer or colleagues...
    5. Re:bad thing for who? by martin-boundary · · Score: 1

      Not to rain on your argument, but given the direction Google's headed in for the last 8 years, I am intensely comfortable with the idea that they should stagnate, and let someone else innovate - hopefully innovate in a direction that serves the people for a change. After all, you'd think that free enterprise is all about serving the interests of customers.

    6. Re:bad thing for who? by luis_a_espinal · · Score: 1

      An article at Ars makes the case that this is not necessarily a bad thing, because Google has enough good products that simply need iteration now, making the more innovative 20% time less useful.

      A change from a work environment where you can spend 20% of your time experimenting with new ideas you have, and 80% working on the "regular" mainline products, to one where you're expected to spend at least 100% of a regular workweek iterating on the "regular" products, seems like a bad thing from the perspective of the engineer at least. Those engineers at google are getting paid sums way over the standard (even by SF standards.) Not counting all the perks they have, shit, it would be goddamned fucking stupid of them if they were to feel the 20%-reversal is "unfair".

      Ars seems to be arguing that it's not necessarily a bad thing for Google's stockholders, which is a pretty different question.

      Or Google as a whole (stockholders + employees who are getting quite a good compensation package.) A regular employee might find the change a bad thing, but considering everything he/she is getting in return of his employment, that opinion would be extremely subjective and emotional.

      If, OTH, google has matured (or "corrupted" according to some nerdtards) to the point that "discovery" is no longer the company's battle cry, then Ars' argument leans to the side of the objective.

    7. Re:bad thing for who? by Tough+Love · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Don't worry, Tommy will be passed over for promotion too, even after sucking ass for years. You get to have a life and clean lips, in return for exactly the same result as Tommy. That's how it works.

      --
      When all you have is a hammer, every problem starts to look like a thumb.
  5. 40,000 seemingly moronic people. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    That can't seem to make the simplest of services work correctly, look nice, or make something profitable.
    iGoogle was a perfectly simple product, needed a little love, but it was functional.
    It could also easily have been made profitable. Nuked for tablet-crap and extensions.
    How can you take a company seriously that can't even ADVERTISE their own products well? AN ADVERTISING COMPANY AT THAT.
    Google Maps, the content for my town is OLDER THAN GOOGLE MAPS. That crap is from my CHILDHOOD. I can see the big wooden house out the back of the garden I was in. The town I live in has changed considerably. Entire buildings gone, entire sections of town added, entire streets knocked down and replaced, entire flats imploded and replaced. Both of the schools I went to are gone. What use is that? Even Bing Maps of all things is more up to date. That is just sad.

    Sure, for the 20%-if-you-are-lucky people that will bother to look out for apps and extensions that are useful to them or even know the features to search for, they will be happy, but they are also the ones that will likely use your services less in the first place, especially with the whole spying crap going on recently.
    Even people that use RSS feed sites probably don't know what an RSS feed is for the most part. This is why they exist. Descriptions for a lot of extensions are absolutely atrocious at times.
    People are lazy. People GOOGLE for Facebook for crying out loud. What makes you think they even know about extensions. A lot of people think Google is their web browser!

    But really, Google has made terrible decisions recently. They didn't need to nuke the thing in the first place, they could have just cut it down to a smaller allocation of time like 5%. Do-it-in-your-own-time just ruins any point of ever wanting to work at Google in the first place since they are just another company now.
    Google were a very research-heavy company and it gave them absolutely glorious products. Now that they have essentially killed most of that, all it has resulted in is stagnation. The software world is constantly changing. The WEB is constantly changing. 20% time was the one thing keeping Google ahead of everyone else. Now they are just the same or even lesser than everyone else.
    Having to use Bing Maps is terrible, Google. Please, save me. That flickering shit is atrocious on Bing Maps, why isn't that shit fixed Microsoft, that could cause seizures in some people!

  6. Eliminating 20% time not the answer by mysidia · · Score: 3, Interesting

    Encourage employees to use the 20% time to Innovate within the existing projects; for example, by finding ways to make them better or lower their costs.

    The value of people doing more than their jobs doesn't go away --- they just need to be more focused, in exactly, what those 20% projects are.

    It's also only fair that the benefit of their 20% projects get included in their productivity. If an employee uses their intellectual resources to do something particularly innovative, they should be given an opportunity to reduce their required working hours by 50% with a net increase in pay and benefits, or an opportunity to move from "20% time" to "40% time" working on their own projects.

    That is: the value delivered via the employee's hard work should be shared with the employee fairly. When the employee delivers more value than the average employee; they should be given back more opportunity.

    On the other hand: if their 20% time doesn't win over management with a benefit within a year, perhaps they should get 15% time instead, from then on, until they can do better.

    1. Re:Eliminating 20% time not the answer by Billly+Gates · · Score: 1

      Chrome and gmail never would have become a reality with that mindset.

      Today they bring in so much money and I would not be surprised than their search engine. Without a gmail address it would be hard to find out peoples' habbits on their phones and Yahoo and Microsoft would be having this level of access to customer data that Google could never dream of without these 2 products.

    2. Re:Eliminating 20% time not the answer by alen · · Score: 1

      chrome and gmail are huge, used by lots of people and feed the main business

      even though i loved reader, most people had no idea what it was or what RSS is

    3. Re:Eliminating 20% time not the answer by mysidia · · Score: 2

      Chrome and gmail never would have become a reality with that mindset.

      Why not? A minimum of 1% of any profit that would not exist without Gmail every year should be reserved for the folks who did meaningful work on it using their 20% time; even if they are no longer Google staff.

      That sort of incentive structure would make efforts by employees to develop products like Chrome and Gmail a practical certainty.

    4. Re:Eliminating 20% time not the answer by DerekLyons · · Score: 1

      Encourage employees to use the 20% time to Innovate within the existing projects; for example, by finding ways to make them better or lower their costs.

      And what you end up with is the 'hell in a handbasket' so many Google products are in. Endless tinkering and "innovation", but no clear direction and rarely are they 'better'.

    5. Re:Eliminating 20% time not the answer by Billly+Gates · · Score: 1

      Chrome and gmail never would have become a reality with that mindset.

      Why not? A minimum of 1% of any profit that would not exist without Gmail every year should be reserved for the folks who did meaningful work on it using their 20% time; even if they are no longer Google staff.

      That sort of incentive structure would make efforts by employees to develop products like Chrome and Gmail a practical certainty.

      No because they are busy just keeping afloat and putting out fires to match the MBA's metrics. If you spend time developing Chrome or Gmail then you get a poor performance review of your work on Google Gears/Search/etc and get shown the door.

      The 20% time is what created those 2 products. R&D is always considered a cost center with these types and it is so frustrating. If Apple had this attitude shareholder value would be much lower as they would still only sell Macs today.

      After all working on the IPad is ruining the MBA's metrics for selling macs the cash cow right? New product develop was started from that 20% and even if only 1% were made into Chrome and Gmail the resulting money made more than made up for the 99% and is what is raising the shareprice to what it is today.

      Without a doubt the next big thing needs to be purchased now as Google is not allowed to innovate. I work with these clients with this thinking and it always is a dead end employment and company wise.

    6. Re:Eliminating 20% time not the answer by emt377 · · Score: 1

      Encourage employees to use the 20% time to Innovate within the existing projects; for example, by finding ways to make them better or lower their costs.

      This is already part of their regularly scheduled work. It's easy to sell research and enhancements to an existing product, and there's staff to do it. This is a non-issue.

      It's also only fair that the benefit of their 20% projects get included in their productivity. If an employee uses their intellectual resources to do something particularly innovative, they should be given an opportunity to reduce their required working hours by 50% with a net increase in pay and benefits, or an opportunity to move from "20% time" to "40% time" working on their own projects.

      This is also already the case. If your 20% project gets internal traction it will likely become your 80% job.

      I completely disagree with the notion that the 20% back burner stuff isn't important to Google at this point. In a big organization it's hard to sell ideas without accompanying them with a working prototype. So the 20% research and prototyping new product ideas is more important than ever, or Google will cease to evolve. There's no benefit in large corporations stagnating; in fact, they represent a massive focus of resources. The corporate normal shouldn't be a slow fade into the eternity of history - the normal should be constant product evolution and progress.

    7. Re:Eliminating 20% time not the answer by mysidia · · Score: 1

      No because they are busy just keeping afloat and putting out fires to match the MBA's metrics. If you spend time developing Chrome or Gmail then you get a poor performance review of your work on Google Gears/Search/etc and get shown the door.

      It sounds like those MBAs are leeches on a successful engineering company.

      You can run a profitable engineering business without MBAs; so I would say fire the lot of them, and put engineers on the management team to make the decisions about performance.

    8. Re:Eliminating 20% time not the answer by mysidia · · Score: 1

      This is already part of their regularly scheduled work. It's easy to sell research and enhancements to an existing product, and there's staff to do it. This is a non-issue.

      If Google's like most companies -- there will be some small closely-knit team maintaining or "owning" each product or project, with a limited world view, unquestioningly following some arbitrarily selected leader (or "boss") who has come up with some cloudy vision for what the product should become that might or might not in reality be a good thing -- and might or might not in reality make the product more appealing to the customer.

      Team making only the changes to the product "approved" (and therefore required) by management. And aggressively defending their territory -- no one off their team dare tinker around a bit trying to find enhancements to their part of the sandbox.

      The project team may even if sometimes those changes aren't so useful - counterproductive in fact -- or might be at odds with what the customer actually wants; despite that, as long as their changes match what management has approved, they win their performance gold stars.

      If real innovation is to happen, there must be more freedom for ideas to be tested out by anyone in the company, not just the Gmail team improving gmail as part of their regularly scheduled work.

    9. Re:Eliminating 20% time not the answer by Tamerlin · · Score: 1

      Encourage employees to use the 20% time to Innovate within the existing projects; for example, by finding ways to make them better or lower their costs.

      It won't happen. Ever.

      First off, the engineers work for managers, which is why all engineering shops turn into stagnant messes sooner or later. The managers are leaches by definition - they're working on overhead, which means that the engineers' work is paying them, yet the managers are the ones making the decisions. Hence the decisions will shift toward what gets the manager promoted, and that leads to a conflict of interest, because what's best for the product usually isn't sexy enough for the manager to get promoted.

      Second, it will lead to engineers who want to do good, innovative work to move on to other projects and/or companies that are worth their time, and you'll end up turning into another expedia or amazon, where 90% of the work work available is maintaining the code other people wrote, and if you want to do anything cool you need to put in overtime.

  7. blame steve jobs by alen · · Score: 2, Interesting

    a few months before he died he had dinner with sergey to mentor him. he said you have too much crap that no one cares about and google needs to focus on what brings in the cash. that's when they started their purge of anything that doesn't make money

    same with facebook steve. he had dinner with him as well to tell him what he thought was wrong with facebook

    1. Re:blame steve jobs by SteveFoerster · · Score: 1

      a few months before he died he had dinner with sergey to mentor him.

      Considering that they're competitors, I find this hard to believe.

      --
      Space game using normal deck of cards: http://BattleCards.org
    2. Re:blame steve jobs by Billly+Gates · · Score: 1

      Yep.

      It is a good thing Steve Jobs only focused on what was making money. Selling iMacs, and not investing in ipods, iphones, ipads, or itunes. That would get in the way of the metric of iMacs sold per hour otherwise!

    3. Re:blame steve jobs by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

      a few months before he died he had dinner with sergey to mentor him. he said you have too much crap that no one cares about and google needs to focus on what brings in the cash. that's when they started their purge of anything that doesn't make money

      same with facebook steve. he had dinner with him as well to tell him what he thought was wrong with facebook

      It is absolutely amazing how half the people on this forum have managed to convince themselves that every single thing that is wrong with the tech industry is also, somehow, Steve Jobs' fault.

    4. Re:blame steve jobs by alen · · Score: 1

      nope its true, there were some news articles about it at the time
      successful people mentor lots of other people they believe in, even if they work for competitor. steve jobs was mentored by a guy who worked for HP

    5. Re:blame steve jobs by alen · · Score: 1

      every product apple makes turns a profit on day 1. if it doesn't, apple kills it fairly fast.

    6. Re:blame steve jobs by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Whether or not Google's strategy is a problem I'm not sure. It is true that Steve Jobs gave Larry and Sergey this advice though, it's been written about often and is in Isaacson's biography on Jobs. It's stated that he felt a duty to give advice to the next generation of tech leaders. They seem to have taken this advice quite seriously as evidenced by the numerous projects that have been shuttered.

    7. Re:blame steve jobs by the+eric+conspiracy · · Score: 1

      Yeah, the H in HP. And it was before Steve worked for anyone.

    8. Re:blame steve jobs by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      And it's even more amazing that they might be right!

    9. Re:blame steve jobs by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Bill Gates and Steve Jobs regularly caught up with each other despite the very crazy competition between the 2 companies, as well as the fallout that happened all those years ago.

      Business is business. It knows no logical boundaries.
      Businesses deal with each other all the time even if they are competition.
      Whether it is patent sharing or simply being "Nice". (Hey, enjoy your FREE discount - Microsoft to PC manufacturers. Yesss. Yesssss.)

      As dick-ish as Steve Jobs was, he was damned good at what he did. Probably one of the better marketers that has lived, in fact.
      If you were on your way out, fuck it, may as well tell everyone else what you think of them and what they need to do.
      If anything, it would just serve to have something to laugh about on your deathbed.
      Just make sure you are really dying.

      The thing is, Google were stupid and listened to him and turned them in to Yet Another Company.
      Google Research, Labs and all that fun stuff made that company what it was.
      Google won't be relevant in the same time it took them to become relevant, if not earlier. They just unmade themselves.
      Sure they have Android, but that is about all they will have.
      You can't just kill off that amount of research and expect to be relevant in such a dynamic industry.
      Clocks ticking. Maybe they will reverse it in a few years when they realize.

    10. Re:blame steve jobs by alen · · Score: 1

      microsoft has had research for almost 20 years, and where are they now?
      research is useless unless you turn it into dollars. dozens of examples of research being ignored for a long time because there was no way to monetize it at the time and the company going under

    11. Re:blame steve jobs by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I always had the impression that MSR wasn't there to make money. It almost feels like a charity, so far as donating money to high education is charity.

    12. Re:blame steve jobs by MouseTheLuckyDog · · Score: 1

      Lisa?
      Apple 3?
      All sorts of peripherals?

    13. Re:blame steve jobs by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      MS is stuck in a culture still used to 20 years ago. If the steering is completely wonky in your car, you're probably not going to get where you want to go no matter how good of an engine is under the hood.

    14. Re:blame steve jobs by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      all the best stuff in microsoft (like C#, F#, Cw, etc) comes from research, and sorry but managers are stupid because they don't pick up and develop those products.

  8. Expected Progression. by RyanFenton · · Score: 1

    Everyone in a position of being judged wants to show that they're productive compared to others. Without a strong force to oppose the progression towards everyone doing everything they can to look busy, the trend in every business is to force everyone towards a saturation point of perceived effort.

    That tends to include things like more time filling out checklists, more time in more kinds of meetings, "peter principle"-style promotions, increasingly redundant cross-checks with everyone your work touches, and inevitable legacy management of previous projects.

    Many of those projects, of course, will be created with the goal of reducing the overhead of other things, and some will succeed - but the culture always seems to still shift towards everyone at least acting busy so they can focus on what they see as more important with the discretionary time they have.

    It's the nature of perspective - people will always see things slightly differently, have different priorities, and compromises will be made in any cooperation in order to make something that serves the shared needs. The more "important" perspectives you bring in over time, the more difficult it tends to become to optimize the shared collaboration, and the more time is needed to find a working compromise. And everyone becomes busy just to work through the ever-growing details.

    Ryan Fenton

  9. Re:Object lesson from the stock market by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    More than it needs more ideas, it needs to make the ideas it has great.

    But GOOG isn't being priced by the stock market as a company that is just going to refine its existing set of ideas; it's priced as a company that is going to "grow and diversify beyond [existing] products."

    Did you notice what happened to AAPL when the market decided that Apple is only going to make its existing ideas great instead of continuing to diversify beyond existing products? Nearly cut their company value in half ... and Google simply isn't as cash-rich as Apple is which means they depend more on external money supplies.

  10. 20% time at other jobs by sgt+scrub · · Score: 1

    In most other jobs 20% time would be better described as, "Use 20% of your time to come up with ways the company can make more money off of you". It is interesting how at Google it takes on a different meaning.

    --
    Having to work for a living is the root of all evil.
  11. Re:WORK HARDER PROLE SLAVES! by Igarden2 · · Score: 1

    "Business is a good game lots of competition and a minimum of rules.
    You keep score with money."
    Nolan Bushnell

    --
    Normally I ascribe all life to intelligent design, but in your case I'll make an exception.
  12. Attack of the MBAs by anvilmark · · Score: 4, Interesting

    The more MBAs in your organization the less innovation you will have.
    They don't think in terms of success through better (or more diverse) products, only in squeezing maximum efficiency from everything - Marx would applaud them.

    1. Re:Attack of the MBAs by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Agree 110% (seriously, I'm not a MBA).

      I currently work in a project where meetings to discuss timelines and "strategizing" are taking over requirements gathering and actually getting things done. Most of them PMPs with MBAs. Somehow everyone of them wants to be the new messiah with the epiphany that will save the projects and somehow make months turn into weeks. The burn rate is over $2million/month from what I heard in one leadership meeting. The money will run out before we will be done.

      Since I have some very concrete goals and am past the point of caring, I just focus on my deliverables. Ignore meeting requests, work from home 2-3 days a week (to avoid drop-in chats), and setting e-mail rules to delete e-mails from specific individuals. I feel bad for the junior engineers/architects who get bullied around and try to lead by example, or occasionally interject myself when some conversation I hear is just plain demeaning to my fellow techs.

      That unfortunately is the state of many projects I seem to encounter. As of late I have three goals; get paid, learn something new, and have some flexibility.
      And sadder still is the more disdain I show, the more in demand I get. People are masochists. I wouldn't hire myself.

    2. Re:Attack of the MBAs by DigiShaman · · Score: 4, Insightful

      MBAs are extremely important in few numbers. But once you have entire departments full of them, they become parasitic by short-changing the company in order to make themselves and their position have a sense of value.

      Maybe someone with an MBA can show us an MBA ratio bell curve graph with regard to company productivity. =)

      --
      Life is not for the lazy.
    3. Re:Attack of the MBAs by swillden · · Score: 1

      That's one explanation, but it doesn't hold up well at Google, because all engineering managers are engineers, all the way up to (and including) the CEO. Here's another, simpler explanation: The article is wrong.

      --
      Note to ACs: I usually delete AC replies without reading them. If you want to talk to me, log in.
  13. I doubt the reports... by dkegel · · Score: 2, Interesting

    The original report of "For many employees, it has become too difficult to take time off from their day jobs to work on independent projects." can be explained well like this: people who are below average productivity in their team can't spare the time to work on 20% projects.

    I don't think this is a harsh thing; it's just a fact of life.

    By the way, the Google version of stack ranking (if I recall correctly from my time there) is something like "If you're a manager, and there's a guy on the team who isn't being very productive, make sure he knows about the problem, so he can do something about it."

    Also not a harsh thing.

    Google doesn't want to become a Cisco, where all the good ideas come from buying up little companies. I suspect that people of above average productivity at Google still have plenty of freedom to try experiments 20% time.

    What has changed a bit is that since the mantra of the company became "Features, not products", those 20% experiments are almost always going to involve adding features or other improvements to existing products, not wholly new products.

    And that's ok, too. There is a whole lot of room to add features and make things better under the hood.

    1. Re:I doubt the reports... by hibiki_r · · Score: 2

      Depends on management: You can easily swamp the most productive developers just fine by just assigning them more tasks than to everyone else. Whether you have extra time for side projects or not comes down to how much sandbagging you do. I've seen extremely good developers that, when facing a project they were uninterested in, would hand completely spurious estimates that make sure they don't work for more than 4 hours a week on their official project, and spend the rest of the time on other things. I've also seen expectations go up in such a way as to make sure no good code could come out of a team. On either case, the end result comes down to politics. Some people have enough political capital to ignore their project. Other times, entire teams leave in a matter of 6 months.

      Skill as a developer is only really relevant to a developer's ability to do unofficial work in the sense that in some places, skill quickly translates into political capital.

    2. Re:I doubt the reports... by dkegel · · Score: 2

      Are you talking about Google, or some other company? I don't remember anything like that going on at Google when I was there. The managers I observed were quite levelheaded and didn't assign too much work. The only real impatience I saw was when one product had too much latency visible to the end user. That resulted in a whole lot of impatience... and a new level of vigilence against latency creep. But that was a good thing.

    3. Re:I doubt the reports... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I suspect that people of above average productivity at Google still have plenty of freedom to try experiments 20% time.

      What if the people who are best at pounding out lines of code aren't the best at coming up with innovative ideas or products? That seems quite possible, given that the two things are only tangentially related.

    4. Re:I doubt the reports... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I've seen extremely good developers that, when facing a project they were uninterested in, would hand completely spurious estimates that make sure they don't work for more than 4 hours a week on their official project, and spend the rest of the time on other things.

      And what happens when they are assigned to Unwanted Project anyway, and are told it has to be done by the end of next month? Meeting the deadlines on Official Project as well, of course. By the way, Jim is out so you need to work on Jim's Unwanted Project too.

      This is how Corporate America works.

  14. Congrats Google! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    You are now IBM.

  15. Ah America by rsilvergun · · Score: 1

    Work harder for less. It's the American Way.

    --
    Hi! I make Firefox Plug-ins. Check 'em out @ https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/youtube-mp3-podcaster/
  16. Given that both Chrome and GMail were by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    ... "stolen" from already established open source projects that were started and developed BY OTHERS, I have no idea what you rant.

    Maybe people should learn how Google is the king of stealing code from open source projects and then claiming that they developed something.

    1. Re:Given that both Chrome and GMail were by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      What in gods name are you going on about?

      Chromium? Webkit?
      Something else entirely that is locked deep within your mind?

      If the former, you are a moron. Chromium IS Google.
      If latter, that is why Blink now exists because Webkit is terrible and not good for anything parallel.
      If the real latter, lolidunno

    2. Re:Given that both Chrome and GMail were by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "stolen?" If anybody takes a GPL'd project, obides by the terms of the agreement, and still manages to find a way to monetize it: they are a thief. I'm sure there are a bunch of angsty teens you can convince that profit is inherently evil. Good Luck.

  17. Re:Object lesson or going public by Ellie+K · · Score: 0

    Public companies have a lot of latitude in fulfilling their fiduciary interests to shareholders. Look at what bank CEO's (and Larry Ellison of Oracle) are paid now. Are they really worth a salary that is over 1000 times that of the average employee? Maybe they are sometimes, but certainly not when they are running the business into the ground with layoff's, bad decisions and huge losses.

    IF QZ is correct- they probably are, as I've read this elsewhere- that the 20% time had ended, then it is Google management's decision. It isn't motivated by fiduciary interests to shareholders. Google could justify why it is necessary for their employees to have that 20% time. Maybe it really is necessary. I've read that Google employees have been leaving at a higher rates than in the past. But I'm not sure, can't remember sources for that.

    --
    tempus fugit
  18. Back when I started working as engineer for by mark_reh · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Motorola in 1981 they used to say "work smarter, not harder", we got comp time off for overtime worked, etc. After a while it became "work harder", and the comp time off went away, and overtime was expected with no compensation. A little while later it became "work!", followed by "work, goddamit!" where you were viewed unfavorably if you used company time to take a leak.

    The bean counters always win...

    1. Re:Back when I started working as engineer for by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Well, what do you expect? Companies must compete in order to make money. So, there is every incentive to push their people as hard as they can. More work = competitive advantage. It's that simple.

      That is why we need laws that limit worker hours. Such laws force businesses to compete on an even playing field. One business cannot gain an advantage over another by overworking its people, so no company does.

      But tech workers are all salaried and exempt. So, business can push them all they want. And businesses that successfully overwork their employees will get more done in less time, beat their competitors to market, and make more money.

      That's just how people do things.

    2. Re:Back when I started working as engineer for by Billly+Gates · · Score: 1

      Well, what do you expect? Companies must compete in order to make money. So, there is every incentive to push their people as hard as they can. More work = competitive advantage. It's that simple.

      That is why we need laws that limit worker hours. Such laws force businesses to compete on an even playing field. One business cannot gain an advantage over another by overworking its people, so no company does.

      But tech workers are all salaried and exempt. So, business can push them all they want. And businesses that successfully overwork their employees will get more done in less time, beat their competitors to market, and make more money.

      That's just how people do things.

      Well where is Motorola today? ... my point exactly. However, in the last few years I heard they have a cell phone line again believe it or not.

      5 years ago I had no idea they even still made phones. In 1990 they were the defacto standard in phones! They used to make top of the line CPUs that went head to head with Intel. x86 was crap compared to PowerPC and 68000 series. They made TVs too.

      They were the first to move to India too back in 1994 and it went downhill from there. It does not pay to go all metric and process driven hoopla and have your good talent leave. All the bright engineers left like this grandparent. You can be an abusive prick but unless your workers have GEDs and criminal backgrounds at your local McDonalds you can't abuse unless they are desperate.

      Motorola is a terrible buy for a stock back in the good old days. A great one if you have a high frequency trading computer below the stock floor, but the long term value got destroyed.

      Apple on the otherhand ignored the metrics on just macs and after the iMac Jobs went quickly into new markets which Wall Street did not like as the Macs were the cash cow. Boy, were they wrong with iTunes and the ipod. Metrics are for finding bad employees and keeping what you have. Not a good growth model.

    3. Re:Back when I started working as engineer for by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Even as productivity increased and there needed to be fewer workers, in order for the stock price to go up they have to try and get as much work as possible out of as few people as possible.

      If my company won't give me 20% time to learn, experiment, and practice new skills, I will bank the time until I am burnt out and spend a few years doing my own thing after quitting or 'early retiring'.

    4. Re:Back when I started working as engineer for by yuhong · · Score: 1

      Funny that Google recently acquired Motorola.

    5. Re:Back when I started working as engineer for by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      So, there is every incentive to push their people as hard as they can. More work = competitive advantage. It's that simple.

      Not true at all, it turns out. After a certain number of hours (the average is 37.5) you'll end up with more time fixing mistakes than productivity.

    6. Re:Back when I started working as engineer for by mark_reh · · Score: 1

      "That's just how people do things."

      You mean "people" as in "corporations", which are people according to SCOTUS? And money=free speech?

  19. 20% time is encouraged, but unpopular by another_larson · · Score: 5, Informative

    I work for Google. 20% time is unpopular, undertaken by single-digit percentages of engineers. Despite that, the message coming down from management is generally positive.

    My sense of the issue is that a lot of engineers are spooking at shadows, worried about their performance reviews if they spend 80% of their time on their teams' main business rather than 100%. The solution to this, as far as I am concerned, is to make sure there is someone who is willing to stand up and say positive things about your project at review time. Since Google has an intricate system of peer review, that should be enough.

    And if you can't find _one_ person who thinks your project is a good idea, take some time to figure out what you are hoping to accomplish before continuing.

    1. Re:20% time is encouraged, but unpopular by CBravo · · Score: 1

      Since Google has an intricate system of peer review

      Can you shortly tell more about how that works?

      --
      nosig today
    2. Re:20% time is encouraged, but unpopular by swillden · · Score: 2

      I also work for Google, and the parent reflects what I see as well.

      Relatively few engineers have a 20% project, but it's really their choice. Management is supportive of 20% time. FWIW, of the engineers who sit near me, 40% have 20% projects (including me). On my team, 100% have 20% projects -- but there are only two of us.

      --
      Note to ACs: I usually delete AC replies without reading them. If you want to talk to me, log in.
    3. Re:20% time is encouraged, but unpopular by another_larson · · Score: 1

      Once a year (optionally twice), every Google employee completes a structured self-assessment about what they've done since the last performance review, what went well, and what should have been better. They then solicit feedback on this report from a handful of colleagues they've worked with. These colleagues are typically on their own teams, but not always. Generally speaking, comments from more senior employees are encouraged; pretty much everybody asks their tech leads to comment. Managers then write assessments of each employee's work based on the reports and peer feedback, producing a grade from (2.5, 3.7, ...) and prose comments.

      The process itself isn't that unusual, but Google undertakes it in a very ponderous heavyweight manner. The peer feedback takes quite a bit of time to write, particularly for senior engineers. And Google insists that managers vet the grades they give through a complex series of calibration meetings up and down the company, with the goal being fair and uniform assessment for comparable positions. The grading is also very fine-grained. There can be a lot of discussion about whether someone is a 3.1 or a 3.3. The process takes nearly two months end-to-end, in part because it is combined with promotions, which are scrutinized even more closely. Engineers love to bitch about "perf", and the long-term trend is toward a simpler, lighter process.

      My take on the matter is that Google tends to be very deliberate and bureaucratic in what it considers truly vital activities. Hiring, for example, is very slow and formalized. Checking in code can require a quest of approvals, tests, and automated verification steps. The performance review process is therefore slow and ponderous because Google wants to be very sure it is making the right decisions in performance assessment and promotion.

  20. Thank you. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I too see that line of "laws require publicly traded companies to maximize stockholder profit" every so often. It is such a lazy argument that makes no sense, that it is hard to see how people accept it to repeat it in these discussions.

    Sadly, we'll see it again in a month in a discussion about Microsoft or Nintendo or IBM. :(

  21. Re: Not quite innovator's dilemma by Ellie+K · · Score: 1

    At some companies, the management is exactly how you described (Eric Schmidt is like that, from what I can tell). But Google is not like other companies in terms of management. They even had Schmidt step down, so that Larry Page could be CEO again. Larry Page and Sergey Brin know that cost cutting at the expense of design and research is unwise. Well, they should. They did, in the past.. Maybe they are too distant now.

    --
    tempus fugit
  22. I've got more... apk by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I have an actual Bachelor's of Science in Business (w/ MIS concentration) to go with CS degree work (90'120 cr. hrs done for Bachelor's there too & way, Way, WAY Past the 60 cr. Associates) - I can tell you that by combining BOTH disciplines I was doing things MBA's couldn't - or, face it: I wouldn't be there doing it FOR them!

    * In MIS coding you use business logic constantly via formulas that're proven, applicable, & that when applied are practicle, useful, & actually do work!

    (Things like Shortest Path/Route for Logistics firms for instance - 80/20 rules, ROI, & many more come to mind as well... list goes on).

    APK

    P.S.=> So, as a single example thereof, I can answer "NO! I am better than that" by far as having more skills overall, Per 1 of my film heros Chieng "The Master of Sinanju"...

    ... apk

  23. Cancelled products by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I expect a disproportionate number of the 20 percent skunk work projects that finally make it into released products (OK, "beta"), are quick to end up on the Google cut list as products that "didn't gain the expected traction with our customers." Easy come, easy go.

  24. Working for tiny companies by 32771 · · Score: 1

    My last job was kinda odd this way, they were so frightened of me spending some extra time on my actual project to ensure it works in cases of bad input and to simplify some code that they laid me off. Of course, I was a bit cavalier about ensuring management backing.

    I would call this a sign of the times, I currently work for some guy for free because he has an interesting project and yet I still don't want to fool around with stuff that needs doing but isn't highest priority. This is a startup and needs some help so I better show some manners.

    But in general I squarely blame net energy decline for it. While it may look to some as if financial mismanagement caused this short term thinking craze that has gripped CEOs and associated ilk, I think it is actually the awareness that we really do have no future for projects mankind doesn't need anyway. If our world is turning into an energy starved wasteland much like the onion suggests:
    http://knowyourmeme.com/videos/66081-the-onion

    then there is really no need for engineers who have a passion for their job and improving their knowledge of highly complex systems that depend on a working industrial society for its continued existence. Ultimately you will be overspecialized in a field that due to its multiple hard dependencies has an increased probability of failure in an environment that is characterized by shortages and sub standard performance because somebody tried to follow the growth paradigm
    by eating its own flesh, i.e. abused the trust still existing in society to sell a shoddy, substandard product while the usual drivers for growth like population growth and energy input have become unavailable.

    --
    Je me souviens.
  25. When you need... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    An entire workweek (100%) to meet productivity goals you are being unproductive. The development of new projects (hardware or software) cannot be simply crammed into a given timeframe and measured by a performance metric. If you do this you get badly written code and less design time. Engineers need time to take a step back and look at the whole picture, to consider the project as a whole... this can't be easily measured in any significant fashion.

  26. When you don't sharpen the saw... by agapeton · · Score: 2

    ...you ruin projects with a dull blade. Because you cannot learn on the job (nobody should be reading the manual for a gun while in the trenches), the best thing company can do is provide this 20% time so the company can grow qualitatively as well as quantitatively.

    1. Re:When you don't sharpen the saw... by TeknoHog · · Score: 1

      Equating gun operation by a grunt with software development is the single stupidest analogy ever made.

      My English is a little rusty, so is the equality here between "gun operation" and "a grunt with software development"? I'd say that's a little insulting to the fine marksmen...

      --
      Escher was the first MC and Giger invented the HR department.
  27. It all makes sense... by pongo000 · · Score: 3, Interesting

    The other day a Google tech recruiter (not a headhunter) contacted me about an interview at Google. This after I turned down a second interview with them seven years ago. Yes, seven years ago. It got me to thinking: Is Google that desperate for qualified employees that they are having to dig that deep into their interview files to find talent? After doing some research, it seems as though they want to interview me for a "technical sales engineering" position or some such thing. Still, this article and the fact that Google is searching their archives for help seems to point to a dwindling supply of technical types in the market.

    And since I'm a few years older than Vince Vaughan, I seriously doubt I'd quite fit in anymore. Say what you want about The Internship, but Google's imprimatur was all over it.

    1. Re:It all makes sense... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You mean you didn't grovel at the chance to make your pilgrimage to the computing mecca of Wall St.? Well, they wouldn't pay you with sunshine and smiles if they didn't drop an offer in your lap, so why shouldn't you take a hardline approach to the process? Honestly, if more people took a stand on negotiating for what they want and what they can do and what they're worth, the US would pull back hard on the elevator pretty quickly.

    2. Re:It all makes sense... by Animats · · Score: 3, Interesting

      The other day a Google tech recruiter (not a headhunter) contacted me about an interview at Google. This after I turned down a second interview with them seven years ago.

      Weird. I had almost an identical experience last week. A Google tech recruiter sent me messages via both email and LinkedIn. He'd been looking at my technical web sites. I'm not interested; it's been years since I had to work for someone else. But I called the guy. It really was a Google recruiter. I hadn't heard from Google in about five years. They must be going through their back files.

    3. Re:It all makes sense... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Was also contacted by their recruiter a week or two ago. Now wondering whether I should agree to have the 2nd (technical) interview or not. I'm not that far off from Vince's age group either.

    4. Re:It all makes sense... by swillden · · Score: 1

      And since I'm a few years older than Vince Vaughan, I seriously doubt I'd quite fit in anymore.

      Google isn't so young any more. I'm 44 and I fit right in. Some of the engineers I work with are in their 50s and 60s. There are also plenty of younger engineers, of course, but I'd say the median age is around 35, at least in my neck of the woods.

      --
      Note to ACs: I usually delete AC replies without reading them. If you want to talk to me, log in.
    5. Re:It all makes sense... by laffer1 · · Score: 1

      This isn't weird at all. Google is probably like any other company. They search linkedin and other sites for interesting candidates for a position and talk to them. They may not have even seen you in the system that far back. Your views on Google may have changed in 7 years. There are many reasons they might consider talking to you again.

  28. The forgotten purpose by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    The thing so many people don't realize is that 20% time was not invented to increase productivity or innovation. It was primarily intended as a mental health initiative to reduce mental fatigue. Certainly, "120% time" would not satisfy that purpose.

  29. I beg your pardon? by AbRASiON · · Score: 1

    "because Google has enough good products that simply need iteration now,"

    Actually no, Google has many good products that are becoming worse due to fiddling and iteration. Some things should be left ALONE. If you came into my house and fiddled with the layout of the buttons on my microwave, eventually I'm going to break your fingers. This needs to occur to some of the 'fiddlers' at Google right about now.
    STOP

    1. Re:I beg your pardon? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "because Google has enough good products that simply need iteration now,"

      Actually no, Google has many good products that are becoming worse due to fiddling and iteration. Some things should be left ALONE. If you came into my house and fiddled with the layout of the buttons on my microwave, eventually I'm going to break your fingers. This needs to occur to some of the 'fiddlers' at Google right about now.
      STOP

      +1

  30. Never needed allocated time for "20% time" by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    "20% time" is just a minor status perk like "company car" and not something you should put much long term value on.

    Somehow, I've never had to justify my every working moment either as a permanent employee or contractor. I've devoted significant time in both positions to things I thought would benefit the money-source without worrying about how to justify it on a timesheet.

  31. So essentially google retroactively downgraded by flayzernax · · Score: 2

    So essentially google retroactively downgraded the status of a majority of its workforce to mere peons.

    Welcome to corporate bureaucracy Engies. Not surprised. You can only have so many "chiefs" and "innovators" on the payroll. They probably overfilled positions or used the title to attract people who were overqualified to apply.

    Or the economy is doing so bad that it artificially filled low level positions with people more qualified causing them to be hired at incorrect rates. Because believe it or not people do try to throw you a bone now and then.

  32. Re:Object lesson from the stock market by demachina · · Score: 1

    AAPL was elevated to stratospheric heights because of a bubble in their stock. Every hedge fund on the planet was buying it because the price was going up and the price was going up because every hedge fund on the planet was buying it. Its not really useful to compare to a time its stock was at stratospheric heights due to speculators.

    On the other hand since Jobs died they do seem to be completely sucking. Hiring Kevin Lynch from Adobe was the most vivid illustration of that I can think of. I wager Jobs would have instantly fired anyone dumb enough to hire that guy.

    Its probably an interesting question if those same hedge funds are pushing GOOG to heights greater than it deserves. Android is doing well but its a has a weird business model.

    --
    @de_machina
  33. Iteration is Cheap by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    They no longer need those brilliant minds. Now they're going to put the patient on life support and milk the dying body for everything it's worth by moving development from engineers to iterating code monkeys.

    In 10 years they'll be around the "Windows ME" stage of Microsoft's decline.

  34. Re:Object lesson from the stock market by hairyfeet · · Score: 3, Insightful

    I'm sorry but Apple deserves what they get as Jobs knew for a decade his time was running out but right up almost to the bitter end he refused to groom his replacement and make sure the company would continue down the path he set. You read the emails and other behind the scenes stuff and its really hard to get the impression all that Jobs cared about was Jobs and that the company tanking when he died would just boost his legend that much more which was fine by him.

    As for Google they need to remember who was ruling the roost when they started, Altavista and Yahoo...where are they now? Altavista is gone and Yahoo is a shell of its former self. Google NEEDS all those bright young people cooking up new products on their dime as that is what lets them stay ahead of the game and in tech if you sit on ass and just ride on existing products it really don't take long for the hot new thing to come out and steal your thunder. Remember folks once upon a time Yahoo and MSFT were kings and Apple had Michael Dell telling them to give the money to the shareholders and give up as they had NO chance to recover, in tech you innovate or you sit on ass and if you ain't doing one you are probably doing the other.

    --
    ACs don't waste your time replying, your posts are never seen by me.
  35. Time Management by Taco+Cowboy · · Score: 3, Interesting

    After reading all the 3 FAs I see a pattern --- the overarching focus of "20%" has flushed out one crucial inefficiency, not that of the corporation (Google), but of the engineers, ie.,

    Those who claim that "20% time enticement" has turned into "120% overtime nightmare" are the same ones having terrible time management skills

    Those who do not know how to manage their time tend to blame "meeting productivity goals" on their inability to meet their goals while using their time effectively

    I used to be very terrible on managing my own time - and ended up wasting too much time on unimportant/unnecessary/meaningless routines - looking back on what I had done, I realize that the change of mindset (plus the time management methodology that I'm practicing) has not only has prevented me from wasting time on meaningless routine, it enables me to invest my NEW FOUND FREE TIME to experiment on new things that I've always wanted to try

    I bet not all Google Engineers are making the same complain - those who do practices time management still manage to hit their productivity goals within their preset time frame and use their 20% time exploring new ideas, just as it was intended to be

    --
    Muchas Gracias, Señor Edward Snowden !
    1. Re:Time Management by ericlondaits · · Score: 2

      What time management methodology are you using? I use the Pomodoro Technique, but am willing to try something new. As a freelancer I fight against not being efficient with my time every day, and pay the consequences myself. Whenever I visit corporate clients I'm appalled at how they waste precious man hours.

      --
      As a Slashdot discussion grows longer, the probability of an analogy involving cars approaches one.
    2. Re:Time Management by Taco+Cowboy · · Score: 1

      What time management methodology are you using? I use the Pomodoro Technique, but am willing to try something new

      I have tried several, and the one that I am using is actually a "patched up" version made up of parts and pieces (the ones that made most sense to me) from the several methodologies that I had experimented on

      My experience told me that in order to make time management works we need to be able to completely discard those of our past behaviors/habits that waste time (or at least, not utilizing time in effective manners)

      As a freelancer I fight against not being efficient with my time every day, and pay the consequences myself

      For the routines of my own live which are so deeply rooted that I have problem getting rid off with a clean cut, I alter them bit by bit with a continuous fine tuning process - shaving 3 minutes off a day in one routine, 20 minutes off a week in another, and so on ...

      We are all creature of habits after all. It's never easy to turn a new leaf just like that

      Most important thing is, try NOT to become to too critical on oneself. When I found myself slacking off in one task I try not putting too much negative emote on myself. Rather, I'll try to regain the time that I've lost on my next task, or scrapping off time from several other tasks --- I find that when I do that I'm re-enforcing the message to my own psyche that there is a price of slacking off, and that, in order to avoid a repeat of paying the "penalty" I will do whatever I do on time

      The corporate world often do not understand the importance of time - that they made the employees wasting so much time in endless rounds of meaningless meeting and discussions and training and moral boosting sessions, and at the end of the day they place all the blame their employees of not reaching their "productivity goals" while refusing to notice the entire forest instead of focusing on that one single tree

      --
      Muchas Gracias, Señor Edward Snowden !
    3. Re:Time Management by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Interesting comments. I am using a combination of Procrastination and Fretting. I call it 'Fretcrastination'.

    4. Re: Time Management by leedsj · · Score: 0

      Procasturbation is more common amongst those who work from home

  36. Sounds better when you don't do the math by js_sebastian · · Score: 2
  37. Here's The Deal by Frosty+Piss · · Score: 4, Insightful

    But there is something else going on here.

    Google was, a long time ago, a young idealistic company full of people that had drunk the Kool-Aid and were willing to pour out their energy into neat little side projects that one day might make Google greater.

    Times have changed.

    The smart folks at Google percolate their ideas on their own time in secret, and then bail out and start a "start-up" (and then possible sell the idea back to Google).

    The whole "creativity" dynamic has changed at Google. It is still a pool of VERY smart people, but they know better than to give their ideas away for free.

    --
    If you want news from today, you have to come back tomorrow.
  38. The real reason for the decline by atomicxblue · · Score: 3, Informative

    Google is moving more towards hiring temporary employees. As a contractor, I wasn't eligible for the 20% time.

  39. Will be difficult to bring back... by jellybear · · Score: 2

    Even if Google doesn't "need" new ideas right now and execution is more important, once they get rid of 20% time and it disappears from the corporate culture, it will be VERY difficult to bring back. I worked at a place where they tried to promote 20%. It never gained traction because of management's inability to reallocate the 20% from pre-existing tasks. Some day when Google is in need of brilliant ideas, they will probably regret this move.

  40. wrong guy by globaljustin · · Score: 2

    every single thing that is wrong with the tech industry is also, somehow, Bill Gates' fault.

    FTFY

    for real, Steve Jobs is overrated as an 'tech innovator' I'll grant you...I could go on all day about it...

    but there's no evidence that Jobs' legacy is as bad as you say...IMHO it is the reverse...

    Jobs' wasn't an engineer. He was a marketer. We make a serious mistake when we look at major decisions Steve Jobs made and treat them as some sort of pattern for emulation.

    He was hard headed and understood, as many salesman do, that you have to make a personal connection with the user.

    He pushed through ideas whether they made sense or not based on his wild-eyed notions 'innovation'. Because American business is so risk-averse and because the competition was so egregiously poorly designed, by the law of averages some of his 'innovations' paid off well.

    One that kills me is how, by fiat, Jobs decreed that the iPod 'just work' when you plug it in...

    For over a decade, I'd have friends/family ask me for help 'putting music on my iPod'...because due to Jobs' wild-eyed 'user centered design' decree, the iPod would, when connected, automatically open itunes and start downloading your entire .mp3 library to the ipod, no matter how much space the ipod had or how big your music folder was...

    It would start seemingly at a random place and go alphabetically until it was full.

    By default, the iPod preferences in iTunes did NOT allow for the user to add or delete files to their iPod.

    Non-tech friends/family would assume this is just how it worked...maybe make playlists to add songs.

    It was ridiculous.

    There are other examples.

    Jobs' weilded user-centered design principles like barbarian...by sheer lack of options from competitors it was, comparitively 'more usable'...

    --
    Thank you Dave Raggett
    1. Re:wrong guy by mattack2 · · Score: 1

      By default, the iPod preferences in iTunes did NOT allow for the user to add or delete files to their iPod.

      Your wording is confusing. Are you claiming that it was impossible to manually manage the media on an iPod, or only that the DEFAULT setting was for it to happen automatically?

      I certainly have been manually managing my iPod all along. I started out with the original 5 gig iPod. I don't remember what the preference used to be called, but CURRENTLY it's "Manually manage music and videos".

    2. Re:wrong guy by globaljustin · · Score: 1

      By default, the iPod preferences in iTunes did NOT allow for the user to add or delete files to their iPod.

      Your wording is confusing. Are you claiming that it was impossible to manually manage the media on an iPod, or only that the DEFAULT setting was for it to happen automatically?

      naw man, I meant only the default setting was for it to happen automatically...

      the 'by default' part at the beginning should be a clue....'iPod preferences in iTunes' also is helpful...theoretically someone could still be confused...

      but no, no sir, you are not as confused as you think you are...indeed the obvious of the two options seemingly confusing you is the correct option

      --
      Thank you Dave Raggett
  41. Employee initiated projects by hawkingradiation · · Score: 1

    It would be totally cool, and I am not sure the 20% consisted of this, but let the employees get together and use the 20% to fund projects that are bigger in scale. I wonder if Google has a process where an employee can submit a plan at a low level, then have it work its way up management, who then decides if a team will be created to work on that project. I would hate to see Google just giving its employees "goals" once a project is assigned and not based on the fear of being a slacker. Maybe an employee's performance needs to assessed not in numbers, but actually reviewed as to how effective they are in growing google. Or was this the old way?

    --
    Society use your Sciences
  42. I agree with the article by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2

    The reasons for the decline of 20% time are valid: Google has a huge number of products, it's not clear the the company is best served by spinning of many new ones when it can improve what it has.

    On a personal level it might be rewarding, but I don't think it's a big factor in every employee's decision. I am about to start working at Google and I'm not sure if I will actually use my 20% time because the projects I will be working on for my main job are already extremely interesting and varied. Not having 20% time doesn't automatically imply that your job will be monotonous and boring.

  43. google mail has been fiddled to death by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    "eventually I'm going to break your fingers. This needs to occur to some of the 'fiddlers' at Google right about now.
    STOP"

    Gmail and its admin panels were at there best 2 years ago. They've been "improved" to the point where they're now a pain in the ass. Google Docs was handy, Google Drive takes so long to load and update I no longer use them. At least Google lets me use the old style layout.

    Google Sites is worthless. Google Checkout was interesting until every customer had to both have an account and be signed in, who was the moron specifiying that?

    Google has jumped the shark.

  44. Companies are cheap by richman555 · · Score: 1

    Companies don't like that they have to pay for some form of R&D. This is essentially what 20% time is except it is open to all employees. So it is possible to make improvements in all facets of the company, not just certain strategic areas. Of course, someday this will backfire, when innovation, learning, and growth comes to a halt.

  45. Death by MBA by gestalt_n_pepper · · Score: 2

    The typical slow degenerative death of great companies in the USA is almost always caused by bean counters seeking "efficiency." To MBAs and accountants, if can't be seen as a number on a spreadsheet, it doesn't exist. What's behind the numbers is just magic that can be safely ignored.

    Until the rot is too far gone and the ship sinks, but the rats can always find another ship. Hi ho!

    --
    Please do not read this sig. Thank you.
  46. Bell Labs used to do 20% also by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    When I started at Bell Labs in the 70s, the unofficial rule was 80% for the Labs and 20% for you. Either your projects or self improvement. As long as you met your yearly goals, no one cared what hours you kept or what you worked on. That concept helped me learn microprocessors and C in the 70s and PCs in the early 80s, as well as many other new things. As I learned new things/concepts, they were used to improve my job performance or come up with new projects that I was able to sell to management. The example that was always given was the inventors of the transistor were told to stop working on it because it was a useless project and nothing would come of it. They worked on it on in their spare time anyway and look what happened. When I left Bellcore/Telcordia Technologies (the Baby Bell spin off out of Bell Labs), in the mid 2000s, they were tracking our time in 15 minutes increments. The only free time I had was lunch where I worked at my desk. I looked at Google and others as learning from the Bell Labs model, even if the Labs didn't use it anymore. It is sad to see the concept drawing to a close. If you have innovative people, and give them some latitude, you can never imagine what they will invent. Where is the new place to invest in the future by using the 20% rule?

  47. Odd by Maudib · · Score: 2

    From what I have seen and heard from Google engineers (and I know quite a few) its alive and well. Many spend in excess of 50% of their time on 20% time projects. They have some legit related complaints though.

    (1) The OKR and promotions process is extremely time consuming.
    (2) The peer review process is even worse. They often state that every 3 months, they lose 1-2 weeks dealing with reviews.
    (3) Many teams are weighed down by far too many people that have never worked outside of Google, so they have no idea about real world issues or how the rest of the world needs to interact with them. Man projects get derailed or delayed by absurd unnecessary excursions led by very smart but naive 25yo kids that are somehow level 5 or 6.

    The end result is not that 20% time projects are suffering, but that actual projects are suffering. Engineers get frustrated and then use 20% time projects to switch teams.

    To be honest, many of the best people I know there cant wait to leave or already have.

  48. big mistake by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Google,s practice allowing 20 percent creative time is one of the defining elements about Google. Allowing them to have a work environment that frees up their creativity is one of the most important things you can do. I can see where your pencil pushers and low level tech support and such and such might not need the 20 percent. But surely you're top creative personnel and the people who are out there inventing things need to have that 20 percent in order to be able to be the most free as that they can be. As a small business owner I only wish that I can afford for some of my people at 20 percent creativity time. Remember to follow Yahoo's footsteps is not necessarily a brilliant move. Much love and take care!

  49. Shades of HP by minstrelmike · · Score: 1

    HP used to be really innovative. They even bragged about how innovative their _engineers_ were.
    A few years later as they started the long downhill grade, they started bragging about how innovative their management was.

    Saying the Google employees don't need the 20% innovation time anymore sounds like exactly the sort of innovative nonsense from management that HP used.
    I expect similar results.

  50. Re:Object lesson from the stock market by MacDaffy · · Score: 1

    Cancer is a tough disease and, sometimes, the treatments are rougher on the patient than the cure. Chemotherapy impairs your ability to think coherently. You're like the dog in the movie "Up!" ('Next quarter we'll release the Uber Widget to prepare out markets for... SQUIRREL!!!'), I don't know if Steve Jobs availed himself of chemotherapy toward the end, but you can rest assured that he laid out his vision for the management team before he shuffled off this mortal coil; he was too much of a control freak (in the great sense) not to.

  51. It's very simple by warrax_666 · · Score: 1

    Google became big. This happens to all big companies.

    It's just the way of the world.

    (/me goes back to reading Antifragile...)

    --
    HAND.
    1. Re:It's very simple by Frosty+Piss · · Score: 1

      Google became big. This happens to all big companies.

      It's just the way of the world.

      Indeed.

      And if I worked at Google (I'm *not* that smart...) I'd keep my nifty ideas to myself as well. Hell, I've got this great idea for a company that allows people to build neighborhood news pages - sort of localized news pages for your own particular patch...

      --
      If you want news from today, you have to come back tomorrow.
  52. Re:Object lesson from the stock market by maccodemonkey · · Score: 1

    I'm sorry but Apple deserves what they get as Jobs knew for a decade his time was running out but right up almost to the bitter end he refused to groom his replacement and make sure the company would continue down the path he set. You read the emails and other behind the scenes stuff and its really hard to get the impression all that Jobs cared about was Jobs and that the company tanking when he died would just boost his legend that much more which was fine by him.

    Jobs had groomed his replacement for years in Jony Ive. And despite Tim Cook running the company because of his business background, look who's running all the Apple design devisions, and is single handedly determining the direction of major products like iOS 7? Looks he's doing what Steve used to do, and by initial accounts, is doing a damn good job after Forstall got shown the door?

    If your thesis is that Jobs never groomed a successor, you're dead wrong.

  53. Re:Object lesson from the stock market by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    He didn't, but anyone who chooses acupuncture can't be thinking too clearly anyway.

  54. really 140% time. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Really sounds like 150% time (120 for work as schedules are already pushed to their limits) and 20% time on your project and 10% to get your project any traction.

    Projects back in the day were options for google profits, so making the employees over work and feel they get to do their projects was important. Now Google makes big cash, why have everyone do R&D--it's expensive (R&D). Only get the grad students in GoogleX do it.

  55. Re:Object lesson from the stock market by mattack2 · · Score: 1

    On the other hand since Jobs died they do seem to be completely sucking.

    Making $6.9 billion in quarterly profit sure is sucking.

  56. Re:Object lesson from the stock market by hairyfeet · · Score: 1

    That still doesn't excuse the first half a decade that he had it where it has been reported he had NO chemo or radiation, just the Whipple after trying to cure it himself with diet and quacks which probably shortened his life.

    When you are the head of something as huge as Apple the FIRST THING you should do when told of a life threatening illness is to get your house in order and have a plan in place should anything go wrong. What Jobs did was basically ignore the signs and continue as though he was gonna be there forever and its biting them on the ass right now, see how they haven't come out with anything innovative since he passed and the "iWatch" idea is pretty much being laughed at before its even being released. Again you read the man's writings and you get the feeling that if Apple tanks after he died that would have been fine with him as it would make him look like that much more of a genius and with his ego the bigger the statues and legend the better.

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