Slashdot Mirror
Microsoft Botches More Patches In Latest Automatic Update
snydeq writes "'No sooner did Microsoft release the latest round of Black Tuesday patches than screams of agony began sounding all over the Internet,' writes Woody Leonhard, reporting on verified problems with Microsoft Automatic Updates KB 2817630, KB 2810009, KB 2760411, KB 2760588, and KB 2760583. The latest round of MS Auto Update hell comes on the heels of one of the worst runs in MS Patch Tuesday history — and just in time for Microsoft to expand the scope of its automatic update damage. 'Does this make you feel warm and fuzzy about automatic app updates in Windows 8.1?'"
Microsoft just went bukkake on its customers.
It's simple but effective.
Good thing it takes longer than a week to exploit Windows vulnerabilities.
I, personally, have even better install policy: off. The disruption from MS patches exceeds the pain from defects in the OS.
It's OK, these specific bugs are minor... an unexpected UI change in office 2013 and an update to office 2007 that says it's not installed after it has been installed.
Only a week?
Oliver's law of assumed responsibility: If you're seen fixing it, you will be blamed for breaking it.
I am not sure how this qualifies as a patch disaster. There appears to be nothing wrong with the patch. The issue appears purely to be people that haven't updated their outlook while installing the latest patches lose a folder pane, annoying but hardly a disaster and fixed by updating their machine. The issue is applying a new patch to an out of date version.
I used to have this policy as well, until I went GNU/Linux for 99% of the time. The 1% on Windows I use to play games but it is rare and seeing as Linux is getting more games nowadays I might go 100% soon enough.
Maybe these are not botched upgrades at all, maybe they are just a sop to the Security Apparatus giving them predetermined attack vectors to exploit. It would surely explain the ball-gags in the Corporate Response Team's mouths.
Squeal like a pig!
Edition patch-Tuesday: $200 (get a rebate for beta-testing our patches!)
Edition patch-Wednesday: $250 (only get patches that didn't break anything on Tuesday)
Edition patch-other-days: $200 (thanks for spreading the load on our servers, your window of vulnerability is longer though)
Rebooted several times and the last 3 patches still wouldn't apply, finally went to control panel and forced them manually. Looks like the .net patches were the problem. Basically my machine was unusable for about an hour. Probably could have fixed it quicker, but I was doing other things and not really paying attention until the third or fourth reboot.
Never let a lack of data get in the way of a good rant.
That week makes little difference: Windows patches come weeks after the vulnerabilities are beeing exploited.
Linux user here. No real comment, just enjoying the show.
Do you pay for this operating system?
It's shit like this that forces me to turn off automatic updates and wait a month before manually applying updates. And it's not just a Microsoft problem - I have also seen similar issues from Apple and Canonical.
Will affect a lot of people but isn't an OS breaker -- it's an app-breaker that affects corporate users but home users usually don't touch.
Ditto for home - the only Windows box left in the house is a VM on my MacBook Pro, which doesn't have network access to the outside world.
Now at work? It depends on the box, where it sits (inside, DMZ, etc), what it does, and how badly the patch is needed. Snapshot/backup-before-patching is a *must*. Takes work to triage it all, but well worth the effort, all things considered.
Quo usque tandem abutere, Nimbus, patientia nostra?
Your virginity is assured. Rest at ease.
A whole new kind hole patch hell. Patching holes with bigger holes, the MS-NSA way!
Your virginity is assured. Rest at ease.
I've always wondered why folks think so highly of the mating game. After years of married life and kids I'm miserable, while the friend of mine who remained single and mostly dateless is now the happiest guy I know.
Rest uneasily, divorce court is rape.
The disruption from MS patches exceeds the pain from defects in the OS.
And given the number of defects in the OS, that's really saying something. Bah-dum-bum. Thanks, I'll be here all week. Don't forget to tip the wait staff.
Stop-Prism.org: Opt Out of Surveillance
I am not sure how this qualifies as a patch disaster. There appears to be nothing wrong with the patch. The issue appears purely to be people that haven't updated their outlook while installing the latest patches lose a folder pane, annoying but hardly a disaster and fixed by updating their machine. The issue is applying a new patch to an out of date version.
This is Slashdot! Thus, this event is the worst thing to happen to mankind EVAR. And it is ALL MICROSOFT'S FAULT!!!!!
Are you not entertained?
You forgot the <Sarcasm> tag.
"Be particularly skeptical when presented with evidence confirming what you already believe." -
Yes, because I develop cross platform applications, but I run it in a VM on Linux too, so I just restored the MS OS partition from snapshot. If you don't have a separate partition for /home/, or if you you let Windows touch bare metal, you're going to have a bad time. Always use protection.
Unvirtualized proprietary software? Not even once.
The price is reduced due to
NSA subsidies.
an unexpected UI change in office 2013
Did they backtrack on ribbon too? Well it's about time.
"If a nation expects to be ignorant and free in a state of civilization, it expects what never was and never will be."
Let us bash again. Story, I have 3 comps running windows, all the same to include Office 2007. One is Win 7, one is Win 8 and the third is Win 8.1 preview. No patch problems. I have never had a patch problem that I can remember. Of course, maybe because I build my own and don't have all that other crap in there. But that is good, a /. s story negative about MSFT which Apple fails with its latest IPhone with its copy-cat coloration taken from Windows Phone (HTC and Nokia). But of course, here, that is not news. Patches
You chose your mate .... poorly. Its like you bought a discount pentium I computer with 8 megs ram and are complaining that all computers suck. No, they don't you just suck at the selection process.
Windows user here. Have never had an issue from a patch and definitely glad I paid for Win7. Quite nice being able to play games that are fun. For everything else that can be done on Linux, why bother?
...and I predict everyone (who has any say in it) will skip 8.x too.
Given all the backward compatibility for legacy items and new OS items, how long can it go before it becomes virtually impossible to maintain reliable code?
First, there is a KB missing from the article. He states that there are six patches botched, but only lists five of them.
I can confirm that the sixth botched patch, KB2810048, affects Excel 2003. Like the Office 2007 patches, it keeps trying to install again and again and again.
The issue that these patches are trying to fix is a privilege escalation exploit. By loading a crafted Office file, it can give user privileges to an external user. If running as a normal user, this is not that big of a deal. But there are still programs running out there in the corp world that require admin privileges to work properly. If the user is running as an admin user, you have just given admin rights to an external user.
I admit it is not an OS issue, and there may not be many people affected. Still, I wish MS would test their patches a little better before sending them out.
(Disclaimer: I am a Linux user in the office, running Fedora, but I am responsible for maintaining patches for all of of Windows desktops and servers. And because of regulations [HIPPA, SOX, PCI], we have to keep things updated, sometimes when it doesn't make sense to update. )
Great civilizations have lived and died on false theories. Don't mess up mine with a few facts.
NEVER trust the odd numbers. The even number patch releases are where they fix the problems with the odd number patch releases.
Basically, Microsoft is dealing with multiple Operating Systems for which no complete design document exists. For any of them. Microsoft is highly departmentalized and, in consequence, it is impossible for Microsoft to compile a single design for the entire system. They simply don't have the structure.
This is not necessarily a bad thing - things tend to be worse when unrelated subsystems start making assumptions about internal design that they shouldn't. It simply means the Windows environment is now too big for a corporation to manage. Microsoft has exceeded its maximum stable size, and has done for some time. (Based on quality of products, I'd say somewhere around the DOS 4.0 level, but that would be mean. Accurate but mean.)
The only reason I use MS products at all is that application developers go out of their way to be burdensome to non-MS users. Wine has a terrible time with many Windows applications and that's about the only way to run them at all. I would truly love developers to push platform-specifics into a library. It can be done. They can then either write libraries for other OS' or provide the API to that library so that others can write a porting library. It's not like it would hurt sales and it won't affect the game because it's purely a support module.
But, no, game companies and solo writers prefer their 1970s approach to coding - damn the portability, even if all OS' are 99.5% the same, and damn the sales, we want absolute totalitarian power! Bwahahahahahahahaha! Even if it'll eventually kill the product and the company. Who cares, when you're rich, powerful and utterly FUBAR!
It's a small world and it smells funny; I'd buy another if it wasn't for the money; Take back what I paid (SoM)
It's free, it's fast, it's open, it's reliable, and it's not back-doored by the NSA?
Corporate doesn't care if it's an app breaker or an OS breaker.
If the drones can't work, they can't work.
+1 Just enjoy the great games on good gpu drivers on fast gpu hardware.
For other roles it seems to be a stressful OS choice.
Domestic spying is now "Benign Information Gathering"
You forgot the unwritten (until just now) rule that all analogies on Slashdot must be car analogies. This is like if he bought a Jaguar that he thought was going to be a fun, sexy ride, but instead is terribly high maintenance and broken most of the time.
-- Sent from a computer.
We deliberately wait three days because I know if anything bad happens it will show up on Slashdot before we deploy.
I would like to remind everyone who complains about fixes taking "too long" that this is what happens when "not log enough" occurs. Software is complex. Operating systems particularly so. Testing takes time. More in more complex products.
Dear Micro$oft, Please gently insert crowbar between lower sphincter and right ear, apply gentle pressure gradually increasing until cranium is removed from anal cavity, breathe deeply and think your plan through next time. Thanks
I used to run Linux on my desktop (and I still run it on one of my laptops), and honestly Linux has nothing, nothing to envy to Windows in regards to troublesome updates. True, updates to Linux are to the whole environment, while you have to update nearly everything by hand on Windows, but at least on Windows the programs still work after the update. On Ubuntu and once or twice Debian testing, I've had the following software stop working: Nvidia driver (no gui, joy), mpd, OSS4, SSHFS, dm-crypt /tmp and swap, wireless driver. Nvidia and wireless drivers are especially annoying in that I used to have fiddle with them on every kernel update (plus, I have to find a cable to plug my laptop to ethernet, how quaint). SSHFS, mpd and dm-crypt happened on an upgrade from a major version to the next, but OSS4 and the drivers just broke out of the blue. I don't think I ever upgraded from a major version of Ubuntu to the next without issues.
Restoring domain controllers from images is a dangerous game. Nothing like'a'split brain AD network to make your day.
The world's burning. Moped Jesus spotted on I50. Details at 11.
The 'drones' can work just fine. The patch made the folder list look empty. It takes one extra click to get to folders via the 'all folders' link. Anyone who could not get past this until the hot fix could be applied in a moron.
This 'disaster' is much worse than the time my kids gave me a rotavirus and I had trouble sleeping for fear I might wake up without bowel control.
There were dozens of reports! DOZENS!
Plus I can use my computer and all its hardware for just about anything I want without having to worry about support for any of my devices. In addition, I do not have to debug the problems that occur. BTW - I can guarantee that the NSA is thoroughly familiar with open source operating systems and can get them to do anything they want.
article mentions that the patches are for Microsoft Office 2007 and later and Windows 8?. I use Windows XP and OpenOffice.org
An old XP SP3 box I had about 8 WinXP patches, then patches for O2K3 and O2K7 (Don't ask!). Then once the computer had restarted a couple Excel 2007 patches, etc.
By "enjoying the show", do you mean feverishly working through dependency hell to try to make updates work at all on your *nix system?
I don't respond to AC's.
Ubuntu != Linux.
And "Debian testing" is called "testing" for a reason. See if you can figure out what that is.
Il n'y a pas de Planet B.
Have you used a Debian based system? Dude, step into this millennium.
I agree, I rarely have trouble like that on Linux Mint. I think the last time I had trouble like that was when I was running RedHat, the people who designed the RPM system deserve to burn in hell for making it so that you couldn't just install all the packages you needed without manually installing each one. Presumably, they've fixed that by now. But, I gave up on them like a decade ago.
USN rollback errors are a pain in the ass :(
"In the end, there is simply no weapon more devastating than the truth, delivered in just the right way." - tnk1
Did you used to write propaganda for the Nazis? Give the rhetoric a rest and just report the facts, please.
Comment of the year
Macs are for fags.
So how many do you own?
And with Linux, you get the free bonus that if you want to update anything that isn't part of your standard distribution, you're completely safe from unintended side effects. It's now been mathematically proven that no way exists to install out-of-band patches that does not also corrupt the known laws of physics, resulting in a subtle cascade effect that starts unnoticed but will ultimately invert the polarity of the sysadmin's cerebral cortex six months later and cause their brain to explode all over the nearest wall. Therefore no-one is actually foolish enough to try this any more, unless they really are planning to recompile their kernel, reformat their disks and recreate their LVM set-up, and then rebuild every other piece of software from scratch with the latest system libraries and a new GCC flag so it's all still compatible.
Seriously, please don't pretend Linux systems are somehow more maintainable than Windows ones because every now and then MS screw up. Linux systems are absurdly unmaintainable if you stray outside of the controlled environment of a well-managed distribution, and this is a direct result of the architectural foundations and established standards of Linux itself.
If you disagree, post your argument. (-1, Overrated) isn't your personal censorship tool for views you don't like.
Use another distro, obviously you're doing something wrong and it's all your fault, you must have a weird configuration nobody else in the universe has, well it's open source you can go fix the updates yourself, maybe you're just not smart enough to run a sophisticated OS like Linux, etc etc etc etc.
Just going through the litany of replies you'll get to save some time.
Comment of the year
Have you ever used a Debian based system with Linux software RAID?
The standard installer will fail and you'll be straight back to hacking config files and manually playing with hard drive partitions, which is totally something you want to do because it's not error prone at all.
For extra credit, if you tried upgrading from 6 to 7 using the normal apt-based commands, don't forget to keep a spare live CD handy in case your system becomes unbootable because it didn't update the boot loader properly on all of your array's drives.
When Debian steps into this millennium by having basic install and update processes that support basic system management functionality, then maybe you're allowed to snipe at Microsoft for screwing things up like today, but not before.
(Serious moment: If the 6->7 GRUB problem does happen to anyone reading this, try switching to boot from one of the other drives in your BIOS. If you hit the usual problem here, probably one drive in your array did get updated properly but it wasn't your default boot drive. If you can figure out which one it was and boot from that instead, you can then fix up the others without resorting to a live CD or other heavyweight recovery mechanism.)
If you disagree, post your argument. (-1, Overrated) isn't your personal censorship tool for views you don't like.
See this blog post:
http://blogs.technet.com/b/office_sustained_engineering/archive/2013/09/11/outlook-folder-pane-disappears-after-installing-september-2013-public-update.aspx
I will use a video game one. He skipped the demo mode (dating) and went straight to trying to downloading something off piratebay then wondering why its not quite right and missing the box... You can get lucky many times with that. But every once and awhile...
tl'dr : dating is to figure out you can not stand them or you are they have emotional issues to deal with first...
Linux systems are absurdly unmaintainable if you stray outside of the controlled environment of a well-managed distribution, and this is a direct result of the architectural foundations and established standards of Linux itself.
That's like saying 'Windows is absurdly unmaintainable if you start randomly deleting system files you don't think you need'.
BTW, maybe you could explain how to fix my old XP machine which refuses to install any .Net framework updates: nothing works, including downloading the 'uinstall all this .Net crap and start over' program from Microsoft.
I, personally, have even better install policy: off. The disruption from MS patches exceeds the pain from defects in the OS.
Isn't that the truth! I think a lot of people who only have limited scope in what they do, simply don't understand just how much stuff Windows bollixes when it updates.
I supported just about all computer functions, and it was a monthly practice to go back in to repair what was turned on or off during the update, Video problems were encountered several times a year My favorite was whne Microsoft removed a codec and I had to on the fly in real time find a player that would play everyone's DVD's. Security patches often turned of or on features used by programs and made them no functional.I don't recall many patch Tuesdays that weren't followed by panicked phone calls as a group of 6 and 7 figure salaried guys had their meetings screwed up because of the updates.
The shepherds did so well protecting the flock that the sheep no longer believed that wolves existed.
Linux systems are absurdly unmaintainable if you stray outside of the controlled environment of a well-managed distribution, and this is a direct result of the architectural foundations and established standards of Linux itself.
That is simply just not true. You keep the stuff you build separate from what the OS lays down, and ne'er the twain shall meet. Nor, in fact, affect each other in any way. You don't get automatic updates on that software, but life is hard all over.
"You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
Seriously, please don't pretend Linux systems are somehow more maintainable than Windows ones because every now and then MS screw up.
Screw up as in almost every month? If you haven't experienced it, you aren't doing enough different things.The folks I worked with that think Windows (anything) is the best thing since multiple orgasms didn't have to work with much variety of programs.
The shepherds did so well protecting the flock that the sheep no longer believed that wolves existed.
Yes, I run Debian stable now for that very reason. I realized after I posted that it was rather dumb to compare security updates to program updates. With that said, I'm not sure how I am supposed to take your comment Ubuntu!=Linux. How is that addressing anything that I have said? I'm not trying to bash any distribution in particular, I like apt, I think it's the best packaging system out there in the Linux world right now, and I like Debian. However, I just wanted to point out that the update process on Windows is often a lot smoother than what most people on desktop-oriented Linux distributions experience. On Windows, you update most of your programs by hand, but hardly anything at all ever breaks. On Linux, everything is automated, but if your distribution releases anything more than security patches, chances are high you're going to see some breakage which may not be fixed until the next major release. Good luck fixing what just broke.
Macs are for fags.
So how many do you own?
Hey, have some respect for Microsoft support, you insensitive clod!
The shepherds did so well protecting the flock that the sheep no longer believed that wolves existed.
By "enjoying the show", do you mean feverishly working through dependency hell to try to make updates work at all on your *nix system?
It isn't 1998 any more. Why do you use 1998 arguments?
The shepherds did so well protecting the flock that the sheep no longer believed that wolves existed.
I just reinstalled a Windows box that spontaneously decided that three minutes and twenty seconds was the magic number. After that amount of time it would instantly power off. I was convinced it was the hardware but after several tests and finding nothing wrong, I wiped the disk and reinstalled. Now it works fine.
I'll take an OS that doesn't corrupt itself over time and patches.
About the only way I can see you safely making a backup image before applying updates to an AD domain controller is to make the image, then download the updates, and then most importantly disconnect the DC from the network, or at least sever all links from any other DCs in the forest before applying the updates. That way if things do go south you can always restore the backup without having mucked up the rest of the forest.
I've done it on my forest, but each network segment is connected by a VPN or VLAN and there is only one DC per segment, so it would be relatively easy to segregate a DC during updates. Having more than one DC in the same AD site on the same segment would be a pain.
The world's burning. Moped Jesus spotted on I50. Details at 11.
True. I recently went through a bunch of Debian upgrades from 6 to 7, and this happened to one server. Unfortunately, it was one of the few physical servers on the list, which meant I had to haul my ass down to the data centre, early hours of the morning, to fix it at the console.
Serves me right for ignoring the grub update warning while doing the update. A simple "grub-install /dev/sda", when the update process is finished, would have made sure that all was OK. Also, this can be fixed by booting the Debian 7 install CD, and running through the rescue menu. No need for a live CD or such.
Still, it's a shame that this one got through the testing process, especially for such a crucial bit of the system. Very unusual for Debian.
On the rare occasion that something does go wrong, I can actually fix it myself. What a concept. It's like the plumbing in my house or something.
Linux still has it.
True Redhat know has YUM which handles .rpms but it does not support SXS or multiple versions of .dlls (aka .so's in Linux land) like in Windows. So apt-get can update something for a new app, but what about the other app that only runs on the old one? Oops
What about apps that have hard coded dependence in /etc scripts (yes scripts and not .RC files like in FreeBSD and Solaris) that break programs when they change. Apt-get upgrade may change these .bash files which break your SSH.
I prefer the Unix way more with .RC with #uncomment to enable this (popular in Solaris and FreeBSD), but it has the problem of no dynamic and multiple versions of libraries and files that are linked when you run a program. Linux was way ahead in 1998 with Debian. But now in 2013 it is way behind. I heard GCC now supports some of this but still.
Drivers do not have a stable ABI so an update to X always breaks my ATI setup which is why I switched back to Windows. The Yums and Apt-gets worked fine with only 100 packages in 130 megs of apps in the old days but it can't handle anything complex with thousands of apps which change all the time today in 2013. As a habit I always do a fresh install on a VM of Linux rather than do a dist upgrade.
http://saveie6.com/
I still have a 2004 circa laptop from Japan that is a critical system in research.
It runs XP SP3.
I turned off automatic update 35 days ago, fearing that Microsoft would push out 'Poison Pill' updates to encourage XP users to acquiesce to the 'Borg.'
In this time period there was a significant drop in XP 'instances' as recorded by several internet trackers.
For good reason.
XP will live one day in open source form.
Until then I will be very careful. Same with my Linux'es and UNIX'es. :)
we have a tool from quickbooks that does a thorough uninstall/reinstall, and i mean rigorous should work. pm me and ill try to get it to you.
Ok, so how do I install a third-party kernel patch for windows? In linux there is some stuff that's hard, but at least it's possible.
Anyways the ironic thing is rolling source-based released actually make that sort of thing easy to manage once you're familiar with thier package manager api. When you update a component that doesn't change it's ABI then nothing needs done, If the ABI does change you can recompile just the binaries that try to link to the old library. GCC has maintained binary compatibility since 3.4 so even updating the compiler does not require a system-wide bootstrap compilation.
Seriously please don't pretend than any admin worth their salt didn't have a manual update system and would wait for thirty days prior to uploading any patches to their system except of course high security risk patches and even then they would be updated to a test system first and cycled through a couple of days operation. M$ then contracted out all update testing because they were just so bad at it. Then took it back in house. It took until windows 7 (more like 14 odd) for them to be mostly reliable.
Chaos - everything, everywhere, everywhen
Because you're an idiot doesn't mean the rest of us are. Serious.
how do you handle it when you turn OFF auto updates but Microsoft pushes them out to your servers ANYWAY, forcing restarts during production hours? that part always pisses me off.
Remember kids, if you're not paying for the service, YOU ARE THE PRODUCT THAT IS BEING SOLD.
weeks? YEARS in some cases.
Remember kids, if you're not paying for the service, YOU ARE THE PRODUCT THAT IS BEING SOLD.
Yup, it is called /usr/local for a reason.
Excuse me, but please get off my Pennisetum Clandestinum, eh!
Why is that supposed to scare us? If a new install is done in such a way that completely and utterly fucking it up results in permanent data loss of something important then you shouldn't be doing it.
Let's address those point-by-point.
So out of your list, the only valid point is "free". And perhaps applications, depending on if you need to use an app which is Linux-specific. But otherwise it's not a compelling argument you just made. And hey, if you have no need of applications which run on Windows and want to take advantage of the Linux price point (or just prefer the OS), God bless you. But Linux advocates also need to cut it out with this superiority complex nonsense. Linux and Windows are both perfectly serviceable operating systems which may or may not be superior depending on your needs. Saying one is inherently better than the other is asinine.
"16MB (fuck off, MiB fascists)" - The Mighty Buzzard
Relax dude - you sound like you smoked your corn flakes by mistake this morning.
Excuse me, but please get off my Pennisetum Clandestinum, eh!
Or... test your patches before installing them. If you're installing just on one machine, do like the OP said and wait a few weeks or so before installing (to let others find the bugs). It really isn't that difficult to avoid having headaches with Windows patches.
"16MB (fuck off, MiB fascists)" - The Mighty Buzzard
Yes. Imagine if everybody had that.
Why, yes! I AM new here.
turning off "recommended" updates skips at least one of these problem patches this go-around.
if you dont have office 2007 or 2013, then there should be no issues with this month's patches.
i leave recommended updates off, use download-and-notify setting, wait a week or two before installing patches.. and keep half an eye on a few forums for people complaining of problems with recent updates. security updates that may be a problem to install get installed via a manual download, not through windows update.. ones that aren't labeled as a security update get ignored. havent had any problems with updates.... yet.
Nah, I can understand the guy. No matter how wonderful the person you choose, sometimes you just want them to go away so you can be alone. That's difficult when you're married.
That is simply just not true. You keep the stuff you build separate from what the OS lays down, and ne'er the twain shall meet.
And how are you going to enforce that, exactly, short of complete overkill like running everything you build in a dedicated VM or at least some sort of chroot jail?
In any case, the problem isn't the default distro packages interfering with those you build yourself, it's the completely uncontrolled dependencies between packages that you do build yourself, because there's no standard way of installing anything. I was setting up one notoriously awkward bit of software on a Linux box recently and looking up HOWTOs, and I found about half a dozen different places that it was claimed to belong, from assorted placed under /usr/local to /opt via a dedicated user's /home directory and a couple of others I can't even remember now.
Even if you know where you want to install a single package, and whatever scripts or makefiles it comes with play nicely in that respect, I've had previous cases where so many multimedia tools/libraries could affect each other and had magic involved during their configure/build processes depending on what else was around that upgrading any of them in situ appeared to be impossible. The only way to reliably perform a clean upgrade was to remove four or five different components that had originally been downloaded and installed independently, and then reconfigure, rebuild and reinstall each of them from scratch in their preferred dependency order. It made the bad old days of DLL Hell look like a walk in the park.
If you disagree, post your argument. (-1, Overrated) isn't your personal censorship tool for views you don't like.
That's like saying 'Windows is absurdly unmaintainable if you start randomly deleting system files you don't think you need'.
Except for the part where pretty much everyone's third party applications on Windows add a single uninstall entry in the standard place in Control Panel and can be removed with two clicks from that standard screen, you mean?
Also, if you start deleting random system files you don't think you'll need on any recent version of Windows, firstly you'll find yourself interrupted by various security measures, and secondly various recovery tools would rapidly restore your system to working order. It's 2013, not 1995.
BTW, maybe you could explain how to fix my old XP machine
Would you also like help getting Debian Potato running on your i7?
If you disagree, post your argument. (-1, Overrated) isn't your personal censorship tool for views you don't like.
Let's address those point-by-point.
Yes, let's.
Free: fair enough.
Correct.
Fast: Windows is plenty fast enough, and has been for quite some time.
Fast enough, compared to what? Linux is, in general, from slightly to somewhat faster, depending on the specific workload. For some people, it matters. For you, it obviously doesn't.
Open: who cares? Being open source doesn't matter for the vast majority of people, even power users.
It matters for a lot of people. It doesn't matter for you.
Reliable: Windows is also plenty reliable enough. We aren't on Win95 any more.
Windows is not reliable enough for a lot of people. It's reliable enough for you.
Not back-doored by the NSA: for all 99% of people know, Linux is back-doored by the NSA to high heaven.
Pure speculation, with zero facts to back it up.
The ability to inspect the source code means nothing when you aren't qualified, nor in possession of a trusted contact who is qualified, to find vulnerabilities in the source code. Linux's lack of back doors is taken by most people on faith... the same as Windows.
You have no idea how Linux is developed, do you? And the differences between open and proprietary software? Actually I do believe that you know quite a bit more than you're letting on, but that you're trying too hard to make a point and thus appear ignorant. Don't do that.
So out of your list
Yeah, about that list of yours. There's nothing of value in it. Perhaps you were trying to make a point, but you failed. On to the closing paragraph.
Linux and Windows are both perfectly serviceable operating systems which may or may not be superior depending on your needs.
Correct! Bravo.
Saying one is inherently better than the other is asinine.
Depends on the perspective. From certain perspectives they are both better than the other.
Thing is, I run both, in various versions in various scenarios. I'm not locked into either one, and I recognize that both have strengths in different areas. There is NO doubt, however, that when it comes to potential NSA backdoors, Windows (any version) is far, FAR more likely to be encumbered than Linux (most versions) is. Also, based on many years of experience, it's far more likely to encounter problems from patches when running Windows than when running (for example) RHEL.
If you're seeing problems almost every month, you should investigate your systems for malware and/or hardware failures. That simply isn't normal. MS aren't perfect, but their QA for automatic updates is way better than most large software companies, and seeing failures as often as you describe is highly unlikely without some other factor causing problems.
If you disagree, post your argument. (-1, Overrated) isn't your personal censorship tool for views you don't like.
Ok, so how do I install a third-party kernel patch for windows?
Why would you need to? Do you also want to take out a soldering iron to perform a bit of light surgery on your CPU?
When you update a component that doesn't change it's ABI then nothing needs done, If the ABI does change you can recompile just the binaries that try to link to the old library.
Unfortunately, first you need to figure out which executables and libraries any given component actually provides, where it puts them, and what dependencies are involved. It is quite likely that the only way to do that reliably for a given component will be to manually read through extensive configuration/makefiles. As you say, in Linux there is some stuff that's hard.
If you disagree, post your argument. (-1, Overrated) isn't your personal censorship tool for views you don't like.
I've been running Debian with /root on LVM on RAID1 since Lenny, with no problems at all. My anecdote beats your anecdote.
"I know I will be modded down for this": where's the option '-1, Asking for it'?
So you just disgard open, because it goes against your arguments? Nice job dumbass.
and secondly various recovery tools would rapidly restore your system to working order. It's 2013, not 1995.
Same for Linux, jackass.
Linux still has it.
True Redhat know has YUM which handles .rpms but it does not support SXS or multiple versions of .dlls (aka .so's in Linux land) like in Windows. So apt-get can update something for a new app, but what about the other app that only runs on the old one? Oops
Quit using shitty software. This doesn't happen when you use software written by competent developers that is supported on your distro
Really?
What about that little update to the openSSL that caused Debian deriviants to only have 32.000 possible keys (http://queue.acm.org/detail.cfm?id=2508864)? NSA has their grubby little fingers in everything, who cares that it's open source, if it's unreadable?
PHK has a nice post about this also:
http://www.version2.dk/blog/nsas-gennembrud-eller-noget-53787
It's in Danish, but scroll down a bit for an example of openSSL source code, having it in binary would only make it slightly less readable...
They don't do that, you're just slightly retarded.
says someone who's never worked in support.
People ring up if an icon changes colour. Their email going 'missing' will melt the switchboard.
"causes the folder pane in Outlook 2013 to disappear."
That sounds like a major headache to me. And considering the article only states the ill-effects of one of the patches, how do you know that the other patch effects are minor?
The cowards post is not informative is it stupid mods, MS employees with mod points?
Waterfox - a Firefox fork with legacy extension support, security updates and better privacy by default.
For other roles it seems to be a stressful OS choice.
Really though? I don't find Windows 7/8 stressful, they both just seem to work and run everything I need. No instability or blue screens.
I think Windows still has a bad rep from the 95 days when it would throw up a blue screen of death every half hour.
const int one = 65536; (Silvermoon, Texture.cs)
SJW, n: "Someone I don't like, and by the way I'm a fuckwit" - AC
It's worth noting that Windows makes a system snapshot before installing updates too, so if one does break something it's easy to roll back. I don't think any major Linux distro has anything like that, although I'm sure if you tried hard enough you could revert individual packages.
const int one = 65536; (Silvermoon, Texture.cs)
SJW, n: "Someone I don't like, and by the way I'm a fuckwit" - AC
You know Windows creates a system restore point before installing updates, right? You can roll back, just like a VM snapshop, and yes it actually works.
const int one = 65536; (Silvermoon, Texture.cs)
SJW, n: "Someone I don't like, and by the way I'm a fuckwit" - AC
I found Windows 7 and 8 have been perfect for games too :) Great frame rate, good use of network, intel cpu and nvidia gpu. O instability or blue screens as well.
Domestic spying is now "Benign Information Gathering"
Just in case you were worried about Windows updates, the defective patches are for Office 2007 and Office 2013. From the article:
Visit the
Windows Server 2012 is more VM ready and can resolve such issues.
No, I do not work for MS or anything, but it is a major selling point with ADs designed to be in a guest and moved around. I do not care about Metro on the server like I do on the desktop but it is designed to run the DC in a VM.
Infact, MS will not support ADs setup like this. If your employer is doing this then your IT staff should have read Technet! Either move it out or upgrade to 2012 that is properly designed.
http://saveie6.com/
Does metasploit have a module for the ribbon backtrack?
My "anecdote" is widely reported on the Web, with various people having diagnosed the cause of the reproducible problem.
Your anecdote appears to be about a system that is configured a different way, presumably because you're only using RAID for your /root and not your boot partition, so it doesn't really have anything to do with what I was describing.
If you disagree, post your argument. (-1, Overrated) isn't your personal censorship tool for views you don't like.
It seems the Intuit supplied .Net installs for Quickbooks and Quicken aren't quite standard and the endless failed attempts at Windows updating .Net is often a result of that.
I think that's where the line is drawn for a lot of people myself included. I program a lot at home but my home PC was built primarily for gaming. I could care less if my compile times could be slightly faster on Linux. The games I enjoy aren't now or ever will be ported to Linux. Nearly everything I do happens almost instantaneously on my Win7 machine so for all the claims that its faster, I don't see how the times I'm seeing could possibly be faster unless Linux users claim supernatural speeds or time distortion. If you are running on a junk rig or are worried about microseconds, more power to you for finding an OS that improves what you do. For the overwhelmingly vast majority of us out there 'good enough' will never be trumped by marginal issues or the pain in the ass of worrying about hardware and software compatibility.
Because automatic updates in Linux distros have never broken anything?
Windows 8.1. Sucks. Let it die already.
Presumably you thought highly of the mating game, and your wife, when you married her. What's changed?
There is no difference between success and failure with MS.
except that EVERY month, you run the risk of your system breaking badly...
Donald 'Duck' Dunn: We had a band powerful enough to turn goat piss into gasoline.
an unexpected UI change in office 2013
Did they backtrack on ribbon too? Well it's about time.
In Soviet Russia Office 2013 backtr...nope they get BackTrack'ed from Russia as well :)
That is simply just not true. You keep the stuff you build separate from what the OS lays down, and ne'er the twain shall meet.
And how are you going to enforce that, exactly, short of complete overkill like running everything you build in a dedicated VM or at least some sort of chroot jail?
Why is a jail overkill? Is there some bizarre parallel world where it doesn't make sense to chroot?
"You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
Lucky. I worked at a shop where some updates would make one machine slow right down, while another with identical hardware from the same supplier would run happily.
I saw machines lock up because of a bad patch. I saw one particular machine that couldn't take a new CD key, and I had to reinstall it - that was Microsoft's advice. The words the tech used were "Yes, we're well aware of that [bug], however we're not going to fix it. You're better off re-installing."
That's good support if I ever heard it. I'm glad I wasn't paying for it - my boss was, though. Also, the guy I had to reinstall for? Cost him near enough to $300 to have a new OS loaded onto his machine.
You really need to stop bragging about how awesome your Windows system is - because it's not. Your trouble free Windows experience is pretty much unique.
When issues like that crop up, it's usually because the user updated using apt-get dist-upgrade, which doesn't run the Ubuntu upgrade scripts, rather than the package manager.
Sometime in the last few days my home computer rebooted, on my home computer I run Windows 7 and Gentoo Linux, each on separate SSD's. Last night I was at home for the first time all week and noticed Windows couldn't boot, it would just hang in the start up screen and not do anything. I decided to run the recovery console program because frankly I couldn't do anything else, the recovery console program kept failing saying it couldn't run any checks. I decided maybe running msconfig.exe from the command prompt would help as I could disable all the extra services that were starting, well of course with Microsoft not understanding computer security and having blocked administrator access I couldn't run msconfig, not even with the runas command. Finally after spending probably two hours trying to get windows to boot I just decided to try one last really weird fix. I unplugged my SSD running Gentoo and surprise surprise the recovery console was able to repair my windows install and boot it.
It's 2013 and Microsoft still doesn't have multi-disk support working! I have many other issues with it, hence why I run Linux, if it wasn't for work I would never boot into windows. Now this isn't the first time I've seen this, I've actually called Microsoft about this very issue and been told things such as:
"A standard computer only has one hard disk and therefore this problem isn't our fault, you're running to many hard disks", I've also been told "If you run Linux then Windows won't know how to handle the drives and will get confused," You have to be kidding me, these are the support "professionals" saying these things.
Basically Microsoft knows they have built a pile of an operating system and refused to fix it. This post is about patches braking the system, well when you can't get simple multi-disk support working or good file system support working then why are you trying to write patches. It's clear that at least some of the developers at Microsoft are still learning the basics of operating system development because in 2013 these are unacceptable things to not have working. When windows grows up one day it will become Linux, that will be when windows is finally out of Beta. ( 25 years and counting )
In gentoo it's as simple as "revdep-rebuild --library .so" In debain or Redhat? Ya good luck, probably need bash supermojo just to find what needs rebuilt. "for file in ` find ...` ; do if grep -i library `ldd $file`; then echo `which-package? $file`; done" would be my guess where find .... finds every elf file in system directories. Easier than reading makefiles, but still far from automagical.
I've corrupted Ubuntu tot the point it won't update by installing third-party PPA's
Holy fuck, you're defending this, what has /. come to?
I don't recall where I saw the footage, but the happiest married couple I ever saw was one that did not live together. They both chose to live in their own separate houses (located in the same town), but saw each other quite frequently. This allowed each to customize their living space *exactly* to their liking, and neither had to worry about occasionally wanting alone time.
You mean the Linux that:
Ubuntu broke CD burning for extended releases
Debian that has broke CD burning for ages now
` find ...` ; do if grep -i $library `ldd $file` ; then echo `which-package? $file` ; fi ; done
In the sense that there is a non-zero risk? Sure. But that goes for any system which you patch. In the sense that there is a significant risk? Absolutely not. I have installed more patches on more machines than I can count, and I can count on one hand the number of times I have ever had a problem. The only times I have had problems was on occasion with my test group of PCs at work and well... that's what test groups are for. On my personal machine, I have never had problems ever, even though I have nothing to test the updates on first. It is not at all difficult to avoid problems patching. You have a test group or (if that is not an option) wait a week or two for others to have issues and for Microsoft to resolve them. Either way, you avoid any significant risk to your own machine(s).
"16MB (fuck off, MiB fascists)" - The Mighty Buzzard
>Do you pay for this operating system?
Yes, since the games I play don't work on GNU/Linux due to various GPU driver problems, and I don't really want to buy a gaming console.
I also pay for coffee because I like to drink coffee. It's that simple.
don't forget to keep a spare live CD handy in case your system becomes unbootable
I'd say being prepared for an unbootable system is a fairly normal part of preparing for a major version upgrade.
I'd also say that a major version upgrade is a very different thing from installing security updates.
note: i'm known as plugwash most places but i screwd up registering that here somehow in the past and now can't register
I don't care about 8.1 apps but I can't wait until Microsoft starts updating cloud services with new code on a quarterly basis. Nothing like having your whole infrastructure go bad!
So switch off automatic updates, two mouse clicks, type update in search, another two clicks (probably a third if you have UAC on). In Linux if I want to install something I'm happy if ap-get even works, otherwise it's download the source code, download the compiler, no not that compiler, the other more obscure one which is buried in the deepest darkest part of the internet, compile the compiler. Nope you need this library, and that library and your mothers fvcken maiden name. Yah, it compiled. Run it. Bam, doesn't work. So you open up the source and take a look. Nary a comment in site, and it looks like it was coded by a drunk cat while taken a sh!t in a litter box.
Fuck it!
Switch to windows, three clicks later it's done. I use me PC to get shit done, I don't want to have to fight to get shit done.
Linux is more stable!!! I hear you cry, Windows would be more stable if people didn't install so much sh!t on it.
There are three kinds of falsehood: the first is a 'fib,' the second is a downright lie, and the third is statistics.
Not back-doored by the NSA: for all 99% of people know, Linux is back-doored by the NSA to high heaven.
Did you just pull this out of thin air, or can you back it up with some facts?
That said, there are many who shouldn't get married at all.
There are also plenty who shouldn't have kids...
The first one only has an effect if you run this current patch without running the patch from August. When would that ever happen? You either update Office 2013 or you don't.
Exactly.
Also, marriage is the most demanding job you will ever take without pay. In fact, you pay your employer...even the severance package works in reverse.
After years being exclusively GNU/Linux, I now need to run Windows again for Adobe crap. I know what you mean by updates disabling the system. This happened on two seperate machines soon after installs with Windows 7. I got the fatal install error C0000022 or whatever on one machine soon after install and a broken boot file on another. I ran Windows XP before '07 and thought it was bad. Microsoft seems to be getting worse. Microsoft support said to simply reinstall if I have an issue. Nice. I lost my shit, both mentally and data wise after those experiences. Adobe better port to Linux soon, but they got tech issues too. I asked the MS technician what he used at home, he told me 'OpenSuse'.
"SO we bide our time, waiting for a purer kick to bloom and the future is still bleak, uncertain and beautiful" -GSYBE
It's effective at getting hacked. "Patch Tuesday" is always followed by "Hack Wednesday" when "security researchers" all over the world make a diff to see what was patched, and start writing exploits. If you delay the update by one week, that's one week where you are more vulnerable than you should. So for the 98% of the time it works, it's safer to update asap.
Yep, enjoy your tuxracer.
There is a tribe just south of Himalaya which does things differently. The woman stays with her family and raises the children there. The man doesn't move in. They both have lovers.
You likewise have no evidence that Windows is backdoored by the NSA. Pot calling kettle black?
Presumably you thought highly of the mating game, and your wife, when you married her. What's changed?
He's married now, duh ;-)
captcha: brickbat
Ok, so how do I install a third-party kernel patch for windows?
if you manage to find such a thing, you copy the file over the old one.
duh... if it's properly packaged you just double click the installer and boot.
creating a 3rd party kernel patch now that's a totally different story.
world was created 5 seconds before this post as it is.
It took until windows 7 (more like 14 odd) for them to be mostly reliable.
By reliable you mean imaging a fresh W7 system, launching IE, selecting Windows Updates, waiting to find the site, then waiting for your system to be scanned which never completes.
Or better yet, you are told there are updates, you say to install them and the system just keeps grinding along, never doing anything until you restart.
I have estimated at least 25% of the time a new W7 install will not update right away unless and until you restart the machine.
Never had this problem with XP.
We will bankrupt ourselves in the vain search for absolute security. -- Dwight D. Eisenhower
Well written good sir.
It's gotten a lot better, but if you think dependency hell has completely gone away, then you clearly aren't running any production linux boxes.
You're also likely not running 3rd party (i.e. not from a repository.) apps.
Yeah who doesn't run vim in a chroot?
Same here, Windows is great at everything you need to do.
It’s pretty easy to enforce actually. /usr/local is owned by a mortal user, and you never run `make install` as root. Anything tries to write outside of that (to overwrite something in /usr/bin, /etc), it fails.
I can see how from a Windows background, that wouldn’t be immediately obvious. Running as a truly mortal user in Windows (much less installing *anything* as that user without elevating) is pretty much a lost cause. On ‘nix systems, with any reasonably maintained package, it’s trivial
Meanwhile on my 'nix system (happens to be a Mac, so flame away, I can take it...), I’ve got the core system and three different package maintenance systems (Darwin Ports, Brew, and Gentoo) all installing to different trees, owned by different mortals. Just su(do) to the appropriate user, run the update, drop back to your own user. Everybody plays nice.
That's why he should have gotten a Cougar.
Wait, are we talking wives or cars, now?
Let's address those point-by-point.
Yes, Lets do that...
true, but that doesn't matter much. I'd pay for it anyway, and in fact my employer does just that.
Fast: Windows is plenty fast enough, and has been for quite some time.
That depends on what you are doing. I have run large scale simulations with rooms full of computers. We reduced the number of computers necessary by a factor of three when we ditched Windows in favour of Linux running on the exact same hardware.
Open: who cares? Being open source doesn't matter for the vast majority of people, even power users.
I care. If I have a problem I can patch it and be back up and running in a few minutes of diagnosis. With windows it could take weeks to get even a simple patch pushed out to us, and that assumes that we can even debug the issue using the kernel debugger using assembly language. The kind of person who can do this will cost you plenty, and without him you will wait for Microsoft, and wait, and wait.
Reliable: Windows is also plenty reliable enough. We aren't on Win95 any more.
Hardly. I have systems that I have never rebooted, only when we have a planned power outage do they go down. I've never seen a windows system go more than a month without problems requiring a reboot. I'm sure others here may have been more lucky, but we are talking about orders of magnitude, not statistical percentage points.
Not back-doored by the NSA: for all 99% of people know, Linux is back-doored by the NSA to high heaven. The ability to inspect the source code means nothing when you aren't qualified, nor in possession of a trusted contact who is qualified, to find vulnerabilities in the source code. Linux's lack of back doors is taken by most people on faith... the same as Windows.
I used to work on a project doing source code analysis looking for embedded malware (aka. stuff you don't want in your code). I have developed software specificly designed to detect certain patterns of code usage, for things such as back doors. Needless to say you can't do this from source code on a non-open system, so you only need to worry when you can't even read the source. I could tell you if it was even theoretically possible to haver a backdoor in your software, but using Windows you would have to actually catch it in the act of doing so. That is a lot harder problem and requires instrumenting the hell out of your runtime system, that of course, you don't have source code for.
Saying one is inherently better than the other is asinine.
From the way I see it, saying that they are equal is equally asinine. Yes, they cater to different user bases, but from every metric that matters to me I would always choose Linux, hands down.
Linux isn't immune either to bad updates hosing it, and for most users, once it's hooped, you pretty much need to call an admin over to try to reverse the faulty update.
And I'm fairly certain Linux updates (which honestly come daily) end up hosing you at random times. Granted, at least on most distributions the updates aren't installed automatically, so you're safe from automatic hosing, but it's generally annoying enough that most developers don't update until their project is done or there's a real need to. (Yes, it also means if you get past the firewall, you can easily hack into every dev machine because of vulnerabilities).
This morning my Windows 7 VM (at work) has now installed KB2810048 and KB2760411 five times in a row, and continues to keep telling me that they're updated and ready for installation.
" like you bought a discount pentium I computer with 8 megs ram and are complaining that all computers suck"
LOL...Classic.
You forgot to mention that even /with/ the source code, you're not guaranteed to have compromised code. It's entirely possible (and has been done) to compromise the compiler so that when it compiles the code, it adds in the compromise, and that when the compiled compiler recompiles itself, it adds that functionality to create the compromise in the target.
http://scienceblogs.com/goodmath/2007/04/15/strange-loops-dennis-ritchie-a/
So, especially given the possibility of sneaky backdoors in CPU microcode by three letter agencies, it's impossible to assume that any of the compiled code is secure without actually inspecting the comp...oh, wait, the disassembler could be compromised too, and the program that dumps the hex of the binary, in case you wanted to paper-and-pencil disassemble it. So, essentially, there's no 100% chances.
Ditto for home - the only Windows box left in the house is a VM on my MacBook Pro, which doesn't have network access to the outside world.
That's nice. Just make sure you don't look at a certain string of characters in an Arabic font, and you won't have your Apple computer crash.
After years of married life and kids I'm miserable, while the friend of mine who remained single and mostly dateless is now the happiest guy I know.
Raising kids was the most fun I ever had. The ex-wife, otoh... except for raising the kids, having been divorced for ten years I'm happier than any time in my life (my youngest is in college, made straight As last semester).
Free Martian Whores!
Except for the part where pretty much everyone's third party applications on Windows add a single uninstall entry in the standard place in Control Panel and can be removed with two clicks from that standard screen, you mean?
I uninstalled AVG that way (using MS Defender instead) so why does Windows keep informing me that I need to enable the app that was supposedly completely uninstalled?
Free Martian Whores!
If you all read the article, you'd know these patches affect Outlook and MS Office - Why are you using them anyway?Libre Office or Apache OpenOffice are much better "Office" programs and Mozilla Thunderbird works.
Restoring domain controllers from images is a dangerous game. Nothing like'a'split brain AD network to make your day.
I agree, but consider the alternative of having to rebuild one from scratch because a patch blew the original one into uselessness.
Quo usque tandem abutere, Nimbus, patientia nostra?
keep telling yourself that.
On ‘nix systems, with any reasonably maintained package, it’s trivial
But this is exactly the problem: There is no guarantee that any given package is reasonably maintained. From direct personal experience, a surprisingly large number of well-known packages don't quite work like most others in some little respect, or invoke magic (usually to do with detecting some other package(s) installed on the system) during their configure process that won't necessarily be repeatable if other software installed on your system changes, or do seem to want to be installed as root if they're intended to be available for all users from common directories even if as you say this shouldn't really be necessary in *nix world.
The major distributions do an excellent job of dealing with these little foibles in the packages they supply, but without that safety net things can get ugly disturbingly quickly. Because everything tends to rely on scripting that can do essentially arbitrary things modulo user permissions, there are no standard tools to answer should-be-simple questions like "Where did this executable file come from?" or "Does any software that is still installed depend on this library?" or "Where are the settings for this application kept so I can back them up?".
Obviously Windows suffers from analogous problems. It's silly that in 2013 any mainstream operating system doesn't lock installed software down much more tightly and provide robust mechanisms to upgrade or remove that software with or without its consent. All I'm saying is that people in glass houses shouldn't throw stones, and software installation/updating in Linux is... a residence built from transparent amorphous solid material.
If you disagree, post your argument. (-1, Overrated) isn't your personal censorship tool for views you don't like.
Former Linux user here, patches broke X and my Samba share, went back to Windows, no problems to report. Unlike Linux, Windows just works and doesn't require a Masters degree to do something as simple as change the display resolution.
Funny. I can just tell my wife that I need to be left alone, in a kind way of course, and ... she does.
Perception is the thin dividing line between reality and fiction.
On Ubuntu and once or twice Debian testing
Afaik Ubuntu takes some of its packages directly from Debian sid/unstable, it is expected that things break from time to time and Debian makes it quite clear that people should only use unstable if they know how to deal with these problems.
Nvidia driver (no gui, joy)
Can't say anything about the other problems but this is mostly caused by a kernel update - with some luck just selecting an older kernel at start (Grub menu) works until the driver updates to match the kernel, if not you might have to run one of the dkms scripts to configure the drivers for the older kernel (not exactly simple to find). Unless you want to be bleeding edge (your blood) you should use stable.
I'm someone who chose not to 'play the mating game', and I am and have always been very happy with that (I am at an age now where that choice has become irreversible for biological reasons). However I know some people who are my age and single & childless without making that choice like I did, and they certainly aren't as happy with their life as I am. Being single doesn't make you happier than being mated, unless you consciously chose to do so because you felt you'd be happier that way. And of course, due to biological instincts and cultural traditions, only a very small minority of people make that choice and stick by it all their lives. So I'll confirm that one can be happy without mating, but you have to be of a certain personality to take that ride and enjoy it.
Thanks for announcing to the world that you are terrible with computers. If you have such a use case that you NEED to rebuild your whole system with untested libraries, you damn well better know what you're doing. The Windows equivalent would be removing Explorer.exe from your XP install and replacing it with Windows 7's.
I did a Vista install from an original disk, it took three days, with the compulsorily slowed downloads. Stupid thing insisted in doing it in order, so it overwrote, patch after patch, 3 days to install an operating system. So once you reach as far down low as Vista (The Uncle Fester OS), yeah, pretty much anything imaginable would still be an improvement.
Chaos - everything, everywhere, everywhen
I don't get people bragging how Windows free they are as if it's a higher form of ethics, and then they throw it all away to play games. I don't beat my wife 99% of the times I drink.
Hard enought? like clicking "purge" link in apttitude?
The win8 sales must be pretty broken, if so many ms trolls are payed to litter slashdot like this
He uses Sid and updates once a year.
Except for the time the rollback froze with the UI unavailable. I finally figured out what file it needed and installed it in something like DOS mode, and it worked normally. At that point, I gave up trying to find which update was causing the random freezes by bisection. It worked fine with the original XP install, anyway.
"When you have eliminated the unacceptable, whatever is left, however improbable, must be the truthiness" - Holmes
In the mid to late 90s I would completely agree with you - but there are many, many ways to handle this on Linux or nearly any modern Unix-style OS. It is still true that many base distributions, particularly those that are designed for the home or hobbyist user, default to allowing a user with UID 0 to wreak havoc by installing unusual packages or those with package dependency/library issues, but most mature distributions do a good job of handling this. If you need to install something without an acceptable, tested distro-native version, there are both methods (like chroot jails or separate hierarchies owned by non-admin groups) and packages (many default packaging systems backup all changes by default, many others have simple options or metapackages for such, also there is SELinux, RCS, etc. etc.) - because you know and trust Windows but do not know or trust Linux enough to feel confident in handling package/system installation and upgrading does not mean that over 40 years of Unix admins cannot do this. I would go into more methods and applications but this post might never end. If you care to learn this stuff, Linux can be a far safer/more stable/more secure place to spend most of your computing time, as many here have noticed.
If that isn't Poe's law in action, I don't know what is.
> Restoring domain controllers from images is a dangerous game.
Why would you restore more than one? That's just begging for problems. Replication exists for a reason.
Restore one DC from backup, and rebuild the others. Or demote all, restore one, and promote them back.
You will have an intact domain as long as you seize all FSMO roles on the restored DC before promoting others.
This isn't 1999 anymore; there should be no problem restoring a domain if you have an intact copy of the directory.
---
According to the latest ruleset, this post should be modded as Vorpal Flamebait +5.
It's unfortunate how some people will assume anyone whose opinion is different from theirs must be posting out of ignorance and not experience. If someone is critical of Linux and posts in a discussion where Windows is also relevant, you don't have to jump to the conclusion that they need to learn what chroot is or don't realise that su'ing to root on Linux is not directly analogous to allowing administrator access on Windows.
Let's consider a real world example I dealt with not so long ago, maintaining a system that is used for multimedia work. In such systems, FFMPEG is a commonly used component. You probably want some audio and video codecs to go with it. Those in turn might depend on various tools to build optimized code. And if you're running on a stable distro like Debian as your foundation, the distro-packaged versions of all of these tools will be old, so you almost certainly want to fetch and build recent versions manually instead.
Before we continue and I tell you what the actual maintenance problem I had to fix was, please tell me how you would set this up. That way we can easily see whether your "many, many ways to handle this" that I (or presumably, in this case, the guys who first installed the software) might "care to learn" would have worked out any better than what was actually done, and at least one of us will learn something.
If you disagree, post your argument. (-1, Overrated) isn't your personal censorship tool for views you don't like.
This!!! Years ago, my first domme shared with me a tidbit on polar bears. I'm uncertain of its validity but I liked the point it illustrated. She said that polar bears are monogamous and mate for life. In a zoo if you leave them in the same cage, sex will slow to a trickle or stop. Now if you housed them in separate cages, every time they got together they would have sex. And to me, sex is very important. Since then she passed away and I've gotten Domme 2.0 with much the same qualities. We are in on open, committed relationship and live apart. And aside from the times when I spend much of the night restrained and titilated, teased and tortured in lieu of sex, I get a ton of sex when she's around. Then. Sunday night. She goes home. Best effing way to do a mate IMO. I'd suggest you guys with significant others give it a shot. And fwiw goto some swingers clubs. Have fun with life. Fuck often and as many humans as possible. Cheers
If you're seeing problems almost every month, you should investigate your systems for malware and/or hardware failures. That simply isn't normal. MS aren't perfect, but their QA for automatic updates is way better than most large software companies, and seeing failures as often as you describe is highly unlikely without some other factor causing problems.
Ah, the old "You are an idiot" argument, eh?
More like software settings being changed as a security patch that had to be changed back in order for certain programs to run, codecs disappearing, that kind of stuff.
Of course, now you'll say "Well, they shouldn't have been using them anyway"
But they did
If I had any particular power in these matters - which I didn't, because I was IT support for the suits, kind of a weird position I fell into because I didn't pee my pants like most of the regular IT people when confronted by pissed off Executives who were in a meeting, and their stuff wasn't working.
But they had your opinion. In their world, they just needed to make sure that the printers worked, and that the Office suite worked. They didn't see much else, and in their world, Windows and Microsoft were just awesome, and the best thing ever to happen to computing.
I guess they thought that the suits and I were just kidding around. They enjoy that burn rate when the computers aren't working.
The shepherds did so well protecting the flock that the sheep no longer believed that wolves existed.
having been divorced for ten years I'm happier than any time in my life
A whole bunch of people, those who are able to learn from other people's misfortune, decide to skip the whole business and go straight to the joys of being single without all the preceding marriage rigamarole. It may be fun to meet someone, but it's far less likely to be fun to deal with their family, and their ways of life, and with all the legal implications of marriage. Divorce is often ruinous, no matter what gender you belong to.
I learned a long time ago that it's just a lot bloody easier to have a Windows Server machine (physical or virtual) hanging around that you can quickly promote to a DC if the need arises. It can be a slight pain in a WAN like we have because updating FSMO roles and other AD objects can take some time, but really, at the end of the day, using your other DCs as your "backup" is a lot easier than rebuilding from backup.
While I still religiously back up AD on a nightly basis, I haven't actually rebuilt a DC from such a backup in nearly a decade, and it's more a kind of religious obligation than because I believe I'll ever use the backup. A new Server install and DCPROMO is faster, more reliable and far less error prone than taking a day or two old backup of an AD DC.
The world's burning. Moped Jesus spotted on I50. Details at 11.
You shouldn't make assumption, that makes you look like an ass.
You also seem to forget that there is a selection bias at work: you usually hear of the problems, not of the working installations.
"I know I will be modded down for this": where's the option '-1, Asking for it'?
You shouldn't make assumption, that makes you look like an ass.
My "assumption" is based directly on what you wrote. Unless you want me to be telepathic, when you explicitly describe a different situation to what I described, I'm going to assume you did that for a reason.
You also seem to forget that there is a selection bias at work: you usually hear of the problems, not of the working installations.
Selection bias is about anecdotes or partial data, but I'm talking about a confirmed, reproducible problem that will affect anyone who tries to do the same thing. Selection bias is not an applicable concept here.
If you disagree, post your argument. (-1, Overrated) isn't your personal censorship tool for views you don't like.
No. I could have been unclear, that much is true, but the onus is upon you to enquire further to let me clarify, not just go off on a rant based on your assumptions.
But of course that presupposes that you actually are interested in a dialogue instead of slagging off Linux. I am afraid that I am going to assume however that you are more interested in the latter.
"I know I will be modded down for this": where's the option '-1, Asking for it'?