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NSA Chief Built Star Trek Like Command Center
Bruce66423 writes "As the NSA scandal moves from appalling to laughable, the latest report in the Guardian indicates that the current NSA chief spent US taxpayers' money to create a command center for his intelligence operations that was styled just like Star Trek. From the PBS News Hour report: 'When he was running the Army's Intelligence and Security Command, Alexander brought many of his future allies down to Fort Belvoir for a tour of his base of operations, a facility known as the Information Dominance Center. It had been designed by a Hollywood set designer to mimic the bridge of the starship Enterprise from Star Trek, complete with chrome panels, computer stations, a huge TV monitor on the forward wall, and doors that made a 'whoosh' sound when they slid open and closed. Lawmakers and other important officials took turns sitting in a leather 'captain's chair' in the center of the room and watched as Alexander, a lover of science-fiction movies, showed off his data tools on the big screen. "Everybody wanted to sit in the chair at least once to pretend he was Jean-Luc Picard," says a retired officer in charge of VIP visit '"
Awesome? It's creepy at best.
Engage!
... wait, what?
with other people's money
I got to the chocolate box before you, that's why the hard ones have teeth marks.
it is, right?
If it were a real bridge of a real starship, they could leave.. and leave us ALONE!
It's still a better design than rows of generic gray or beige cubes.
I, for one, will be deducting my share of the cost of this from my next Income Tax bill.
Only if you wear a red shirt.
The design of the War Room in Dr. Strangelove looked a lot less cheesy.
For a DIY hobby project maybe. Somehow, I don't find it very comforting that this is the mindset of people who are entrusted with everyone's private information (things like banking data, medical records, private correspondence, news interests, political leanings, whereabouts etc.). It kind of gives the impression that it's just a game to them.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Megalomania
Kristen Vaughness' "office in the basement" is much closer to how serious hacking is done.
Unfortunately REAL cyber-security is more like being a dreaded SOX Auditor.... Lots of checking and double checking that somebody "locked the gates" every night like they're supposed to.
And how much taxpayer money was burnt on this nutjobs sci-fi wet dream? Its like watching any one of those films depicting a dystopian future, those in power playing out their fantasies while those who actually fund their antics (either through taxes or illicit corporate profits) live in squalor. I suppose the latter part has yet to completely come to pass but at the rate things are going ($17 trillion in debt & federal spending increasing at $200 a second)its not going to take long.
We ALL wear red shirts.
Faster! Faster! Faster would be better!
I hope they have replaced the CRTs to flat panels. Doesn't feel very modern with CRTs.
One of the contractors has pics online of what is likely to be this installation:
http://www.dbia.com/projectpage/LIWA.pdf
Mirrored here:
http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2013/sep/15/nsa-mind-keith-alexander-star-trek
I hope they have replaced the CRTs to flat panels. Doesn't feel very modern with CRTs.
Do we actually need any more proof that the NSA is completely out of control and run by a nutball? Visions of grandeur anyone? Even the President just uses a regular (nice but regular) chair and desk.
Any NSA apologists care to take a stab at this one? (I could use a laugh)
Who knows, it probably didnt cost any more money to build than a more plain control room would. If that is the case, I don't know if it really makes a lot of sense to make a big uproar over it. As long as it doesnt cost any more, why not make it look neat?
... a facility known as the Information Dominance Center.
I thought information wanted to be free.
I guess we're the "bottom" in this NSA BDSM situation because all I've seen so far is the NSA reaching for the big, black strap-on... But I thought the bottom has all the power in this kind relationship - and we obviously don't - so I'm really confused.
It must have been something you assimilated. . . .
Also, what about the name "Information Dominance Center"? Creepy and pathetic at the same time; it sounds like BDSM-style slash-fic based on TRON. Bring in the Logic Probe!
If construction was anything like programming, an incorrectly fitted lock would bring down the entire building...
NSA... star-trek like command center... Who else immediately thought of the Dreadnought bridge from Into Darkness?
Oliver's law of assumed responsibility: If you're seen fixing it, you will be blamed for breaking it.
Yes, and air is their primary breathing gas, water the main component of their beverages, and they drive around in vehicles powered by gasoline, itself mostly dug out of countries harboring these very terrorists! We can't have that! Nobody should be allowed to breathe air, drink water, or drive a car without government control. (And if you think recent administrations haven't been trying, you haven't been paying attention.)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o_eSwq1ewsU
Kristen Vaughness' "office in the basement" is much closer to how serious hacking is done.
Any link to that? I'm not having much luck with Google.
To explore new data and probe every computer in existence... these are the voyages of the NSA!
You seriously don't have the slightest clue how much things actually cost. The entire place probably cost a fraction of, say, one Tomahawk missile launch into Syria. They had to build the place anyway, and they needed a control center of some kind, so my guess is Star-Trekifing it probably cost less than 1% of the total budget, and that's just for construction. It costs millions to keep a place like that running. I say, either let them have their fun, or demand that they cut costs in a much bigger way, but don't complain about what amounts to pin-striping on the side of a fighter jet as though it would even make the tiniest pit of difference to the big picture.
It doesn't, it won't, and it can't. PBS is just looking for something to whine about.
What the FUCK has happened to this country?
So what if it if the design is inspired by a Sci-Fi TV show? Show me that this would have cost way more than some other design had a non-Star Trek fan been responsible for its acquisition.
The money's bad but I don't find it the most disturbing part of this. The place doesn't look that much more expensive than any office the senior management of a large organization would work in.
It's the mindset that would want such an Information Dominance Center that is disturbing. It bespeaks a person willing to use his position to live out a fantasy. In this fantasy, the fate of the galaxy country rests in his singular hands. Far from being a functionary who answers to civilian authorities, he's the protagonist in some grand drama.
And as much as I love Star Trek, a Star Trek fantasy is the last one I'd see in such a man. Star Trek captains righteously flout all the rules. When superiors order them to stand down, when their fundamental laws (the Prime Directive) deny them the power, when the lives of entire worlds are at stake, they do what they think best, damn the torpedoes, warp 9, engage. A man with such delusions of grandeur ought not be put in charge of HUD, much less a secretive organization known for its willingness to spy on citizens.
Yes, there are terrorist threats to the US, and they are less of a threat than bathtubs.
This is my signature. There are many like it, but this one is mine.
This is apparently video of it from 2007:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mFNUbdARitk
This was at INSCOM, years before Alexander was appointed to NSA.
Tic-Tac-Toe, Global Thermonuclear War, and relationships all have the same winning move.
That's right, be scared now.
Let's ignore the fact that the recent tapes by Ayman al-Zawahiri implicitly accept that al-Qaeda are incapable of launching any significant attacks by calling for "Lone wolf" attacks and, get this, not buying stuff made in America. Surely that's just a deception and they're going to drop a 10Mt nuclear warhead on you, personally, tomorrow.
I hope you've checked for monsters/Communists/Terrorists under you bed.
Holy crap.
What is awesome about this is how much you have lost control of your country and how flagrantly your leaders are rubbing your noses in their anooses.
Awesome in the horrible, black hole like way and not the good way.
The usage of a 'whoosh' sound for the doors kind of throws your theory out the window. Also, I'm more concerned about the mindset of someone who has this set at their place of work controlling limitless information on everyone.
This is my signature. There are many like it, but this one is mine.
which required a specialist designer and large amounts of expensive furnishings
DBI has built control rooms for other agencies. Here's their portfolio. They did the new White House Situation Room (which looks reasonable), the National Counterterrorism Center (overdid the lighting effects), Lockheed Martin (looks like a movie set, overhead lighting grids and all), a NASA auditorium (just rows of seats and some big screens), GeoEye (overdid the ceiling design), Defense Information Security Agency (fancy ceiling, lots of Eames chairs.)
But only for the NSA facility did they really go over the top. This is the silliest control center design since the Moscow United electric power control center The layout makes no sense. The person in the "Captain's chair" is in front, and can't see what everybody else is doing. The "captains chair" has no controls or screens of its own, so whomever sits there cannot do anything except shout orders.
A common setup in operational control centers, especially USAF and NASA, is to have the ability for each station to look at screens of other stations in view-only mode. (Originally this was done with an actual channel selector and an analog cable TV system). When something important is happening, a lot of people may need to look at one display. This eliminates everybody crowding around the station that has the key information at the moment. Once you have that, the physical layout doesn't matter as much.
The result is that most modern military command centers are rather boring - they look like a help-desk operation. The current NORAD center looks much less impressive than its predecessors. In the field, a bunch of laptops in a tent can operate as a command center. A modern tactical operations center looks like that, not like one of these fancy overdecorated rooms.
In other words, Terrorism is not actually a real threat, but it's designed to make you act irrationally out of fear, The answer is not act irrationally out of fear, but be careful about using your budget, but to not act irrationally out of fear. Also, to quit being dicks on the international stage and stop being involved in political coups.
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Interesting -- I didn't know about Cybersyn.
Too bad Allende was murdered before they had a chance to try it out.
(and murdered with the help and encouragement of the same spooks who run the NSA)
So?
I'd be alright with it if they also treated the Bill of Rights like the Prime Directive.
An important change for education.
> That's awesome (Score:2) Probably the closest you can get to living in the future.
You've already been living in this all your life. Government officials misusing money is both the future and the ancient past. And everything in-between.
(-1: Post disagrees with my already-settled worldview) is not a valid mod option.
Flaw 1: Assumption that NSA and US citizens are members of the same crew ... the original red shirt ... has already been taken out (i.e lost his freedom)
Flaw 2: Not recognizing that freedom is the crew, we are all the red shirts, and NSA is the enemy.
Flaw 3: Saying we'll eventually find out, when Snowden
Flaw 4: Extending any Star Trek analogy
Guns don't kill people; Physics kills people! - John Lithgow as Dick Solomon on Third Rock From The Sun
That is an excellent point. Nobody has thrown away the principles of the constitution and totally undermined our reputation with the rest of the world over bathtub threats. Somebody mod ^this idiot^ up!
Guns don't kill people; Physics kills people! - John Lithgow as Dick Solomon on Third Rock From The Sun
Yes, in the grand scheme of military/intelligence spending its a drop in the bucket. Problem is we have millions of them, and they're adding up fast. That command facility that was built in Afghanistan and never used/wanted, $34 Million. GAO audits have classified nearly half of purchases on government charge cards as improper. The SEC spent nearly $3.9 million rearranging desks at its DC HQ. Congress members have spent hundreds of thousands of dollars in taxpayer money on cars, popcorn machines, cameras, TV's and other amenities. And the list goes on, and on, and on. I'm all for going after the big ticket waste as well, but you can die from a thousand small cuts just as easily as you can die from a meat cleaver to the head.
Actually, the whole damn story reminds me of an old film about an American military coup: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seven_days_in_may
All we need now, is a new Senator Joe McCarthy at the helm . . .
Schroedinger's Brexit: The UK is both in and out of the EU at the same time!
The poster didn't say the whole thing was acceptable, just that the amount is so insignificant that it doesn't matter in the least and should NOT be the focus of such complaints. It's true. The same goes for an individual household's budget. If you go deeply into debt to buy the big luxury SUV, and the thing your wife complains about is that you "wasted" the extra $200 on the upgraded stereo, she's complaining about the wrong thing entirely!
On the other hand, a cool control center might actually help attract better talent. Extra perks to help attract and retain the best people can sometimes be, and often are, worth it, as proven by companies like Google and Facebook, etc. There is also a very real, and important reason why these government agencies exist. You can argue that they've deviated beyond those reasons, but it doesn't negate that they basically must exist and are, in some cases, essential. I would much rather have the best people working there (and maybe those folks can even help effect positive change from within if there are enough of them). If spending a comparative few pennies extra on this sort of thing on rare occasions helps there, I'd actually be OK with it.
It gives me the impression that they are megalomaniacal and power crazy.
There are more efficient way to implement command and control systems than a century old battleship bridge. Or everyone staring at the same big display. But it sure looks good for the spectators.
Have gnu, will travel.
Holy shit! You're quicker than molasses running up hill in the wintertime, aren't you!
Guns don't kill people; Physics kills people! - John Lithgow as Dick Solomon on Third Rock From The Sun
Plus, they could have picked up a cheap used TNG bridge from that Vegas place. An organization with the funding of the NSA should be able to launder out the smell of hookers and despair.
Ok. Now I feel some regret about having made that statement. It really doesn't give a fair shake to molasses.
Guns don't kill people; Physics kills people! - John Lithgow as Dick Solomon on Third Rock From The Sun
On a set like that, it would not surprise me if those monitors show fancy 3D-animations of the 'interior' of machines they are about to break-and-enter, airlock-type doors with blinking red 'NO ACCESS' writing on them accompanied by clanging noises, integrated circuits visualised as city landscapes and more of that stuff which we've always laughed about in the movies about hacking and hackers...
--frank[at]unternet.org
It's good to be the king.
Yes, al Qaida is doing everything they can to harm us. The sad thing is our government seems to be doing everything they can to help al Qaida (and the Muslim Brotherhood).
Y'all enjoying your loss of freedom and privacy in the name of safety? Thought so.
NSA: Stupid, fucking dipshits.
Fucking place is going to hell.
When Fascism comes to America, it will call itself Anti-Fascism, and tell you to give up your guns.
On the last real Enterprise (CVN-65) flight deck, ordnance personnel wore red jerseys, aircraft maintenance wore green, fuelers purple, and crash and safety white, etc. The idea is to allow the Air Boss to ID who's where and whom at an instant to run the deck. Also Forrestall class aircraft carrier Combat Direction Centers (Enterprise was designed on a modified Forrstall blueprint) were laid out in a more or less similar horseshoe shape with the Tactical Action Officer (TAO) chair elevated in the middle looking across from the status displays, which the series bridge layout reminded me of, kind of. I'm sure that's where Roddenberry got the idea of colored uniforms to designate branch (ops blue and engineering red). Anyway, art often imitates life, and visa versa. For a command center, the Forrestall/Enterprise layout was, in my experience, far superior to Nimitz class layout for maintaining situational awareness. Ergonomics count, as we learn, forget and relearn, over and over and over.
Actually, the whole damn story reminds me of an old film about an American military coup: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seven_days_in_may [wikipedia.org]
All we need now, is a new Senator Joe McCarthy at the helm . . .
2000, 2004, 2008, & 2012. Done and done. With a little Mao, Stalin, & Mussolini thrown in on both.
In two main flavors.
We have the (D)ick-flavored one now. We had the (R)ectum-flavored one last time.
But don't throw away your vote. The wrong lizard might get in.
Strat
Progressivism (aka US 'Liberalism'): Ideas so good they need a police/surveillance-state to enforce.
Bullshit.
Bin Liden's falling out with Saudi Arabia was over their invitation of American troops to defend them from Iraq after the initial invasion of Kuwait. Bin Laden publicly denounced Saudi dependence on the U.S. military, arguing the two holiest shrines of Islam, Mecca and Medina, the cities in which the Prophet Mohamed received and recited Allah's message, should only be defended by Muslims. Bin Laden's criticism of the Saudi monarchy led them to try to silence him. They subsequently revoked his citizenship and he relocated to Sudan.
He declared war on the United States in August of 1996 because after defeating the Iraqis, the U.S. left troops in The Kingdom. His fatwa was titled "Declaration of War against the Americans Occupying the Land of the Two Holy Places" and explicitly states that the highest prioriy is pushing the unbelievers out of the Holy Land.
What al-Qaida really wants ranks right up there with my son wanting a pony. Neither is ever going to get remotely what they state, nor are they capable of really trying. al-Qaida knows they have to defeat the "near enemy" -- all of the autocratic rulers of the Middle East -- to form their beloved Caliphate before they can think about dealing with the "far enemy" -- the West. Notice how little progress they've made on that front. What, Iran? Anything else?
Considering bin Laden ranked the Shia right there with Infidels and Jews, I'd say he had his hands full with formenting a Muslim civil war before getting anywhere else.
al-Qaida's weapon on 9/11/2001 was surprise, and you know it. SOP for dealing with a hijacking was sit back and wait until it was over. That'll never happen again. al-Qaida has virtually no ability to strike the West with any force. They also have their hands full with all of the "Arab Spring" issues to even think about dealing with the "far enemy" at all.
If the Islamists can't even hold Egypt when it was handed to them on a silver platter, their so called "demand" that the U.S. convert to Islam ranks somewhere just below them all getting ponies for Christmas.
They can't even get Sharia implemented in places like Egypt, Turkey, Kuwait, Lebanon and Jordan, much less anywhere outside their home turf.
Reading their Christmas wish list and taking it for gospel is disingenuous. Especially when it looks like it isn't going anywhere near according to plan. Egypt shows that just because the autocrat was out doesn't mean anyone really wants the Islamists in. Just trading boots.
Learning HOW to think is more important than learning WHAT to think.
Is this guy running the NSA:
http://i2.kym-cdn.com/entries/icons/original/000/001/569/insp_captkirk_5_.jpg
(Apologies to William Shatner)
Truth isn't Truth - Guliani
It gives me the impression that they are megalomaniacal and power crazy.
Oh pshaw!
It's not at all like a "Dr. Evil's evil control room" at all!
I'll wager you won't find even a single "shark with a frickin' laser beam" anywhere.
Not sure about the "mini-Me's".
See? What's to worry about?
I'm certain it had to be built like that to properly enslav^W^W^W^W^W^Wprotect the nation.
Strat
Progressivism (aka US 'Liberalism'): Ideas so good they need a police/surveillance-state to enforce.
VERY old news.
When "Star Trek" first came on the air, in the 1960s, the US Navy sent a team to visit the set. They were building a new communications center, and they REALLY liked the bridge set layout, as it did an OUTSTANDING job of facilitating communications among the bridge crew.
Creepy isn't the word. Sickening is the word. The entire goal is merely to spend tax money -- and profit from that spending (indirectly and under the radar, as usual).
Is it worth it? Does the ROI actually make everybody more productive?
and pretty soon you're talking some real money.
(Often attributed to Senator Dirksen, but it has not been positively confirmed.)
Pics or it didn't happen
Its bullshit man, sure there's people who act as terrorists (see "The Mandarin, Ironman") for a (movie example, since literary examples are not quite relevant anymore).
There has been no significant threat to Americans thwarted by the CIA or NSA. The FBI was told to STAND DOWN before 911. And the prior bombing int he basement. Even though they had specific intel on both incidents.
The intel that gets shared on public mass media is propanda. There were no bunkers for Hussam in Iraq. There is no grand chemical weapons threat.
Could something happen like the incident in Tokyo with Sarin gas? Sure but its just as likely to be government funded than an actual terrorist organization. At this point.
The point is we cannot trust our government to "protect us". Take away our freedom, disabling our means of protecting ourselves. They don't want revolution. Because we are on the verge of something tianamin square level in the states. Despite how much people want to bury their heads in the sand.
2 million bikers in DC this month/last few weeks. Not even aired on public TV. Take a good look at your world. At the corporations, the services they provide. Who they cater to. And how your police operate.
Take a solid hard look. Don't take my word for it.
Ask why there are so many disenfranchised poor vagrant transient people in America today. Ask why welfare exists. Question everything. Look at it all.
The shark with the fricking laser beam is over at DARPA.
Get yore agencies straight!
Suggested experiment: remove all NSA leaders and administration but leave all hardware intact.
Expected result: no significant change.
We'd need a New Tron Bomb for that.
Perhaps NSA chose the wrong movie.
Video located.
Get thee glass eyes, and, like a scurvy politician, seem to see things thou dost not.--King Lear
I'd be alright with it if they also treated the Bill of Rights like the Prime Directive.
You'd like the Bill of Rights to be violated with impunity?
The summary did say he "brought many of his future allies down", clearly a reference to the crew of a time-travelling Starship beaming themselves down to his office.
Provided it isn't elaborate as elaborate as a Hollywood set, I see no harm in him creating his own sort of private holodeck to survive the reality of his boring information processing job. At least Trekkies are fans of a utopian and relatively peaceful future. I shudder to think what would be going on in his mind if he had been a Star Wars, Matrix or Terminator fan.
Yeah, the CRTs certainly made me think "ooh futuristic".
Science is all about firing a drunk pig out of a cannon just to see what happens.
So, where do I get the job playing a Klingon for them?
Table-ized A.I.
Also, what about the name "Information Dominance Center"? Creepy and pathetic at the same time; it sounds like BDSM-style slash-fic based on TRON. Bring in the Logic Probe!
For context you're thinking sex when you should be thinking war. Parlez-vous français?*
much of left-wing thought is a kind of playing with fire by people who don't even know that fire is hot - George Orwell
To spend in ways no man has spent before
Table-ized A.I.
What I find more disturbing than one narcissist with an unlimited budget was the idea that this was really built not as his idea of an actual data-command-centre, but as a set to impress VIPs, especially Congressmen, especially those on oversight committees...
What I find disturbing is that they claim it worked. None of those VIPs had the reaction that apparently everyone else in the entire fucking world had upon hearing about this (and moreso on seeing it). Not one, not a single one of them went, "WTF? Are you people insane?", they were all impressed and wanted to sit in the "Captain's chair", and then went away and helped NSA's cause and budget in Congress/Committee.
Science is all about firing a drunk pig out of a cannon just to see what happens.
I was not looking for a word.
You seem confused on how the big picture works. Legalities are being figured out, and it is probable that existing, mounting public pressure will make the legislative branch take on the executive branch, and determine what actually is legal. Meanwhile, more information is coming from FISC and other decisions and policies, so the people who say what's legal can see what other people who say what's legal based their decisions on. The entirety of case law which resulted in a win for the prosecution was stuff that was legal until a court said it wasn't. And I can't see a flawless victory when 2 of 3 branches disagree with the Executive. So we still don't know. Oh, you didn't want opinion, you wanted something more substantial, like the FISA court finding the NSA to be in violation of the fourth amendment. So no, just because someone says it's legal doesn't mean it is.
And I spent THE REST OF THE PARAGRAPH explaining what is wrong with that single chair. In a nutshell: More than one person should have an unobstructed view of a 22 foot screen, and I count reflection off the chrome as obstruction.
No one yet has mentioned that the PDF lists the completion date as 1999 - well in time to have had some effect two years later but failing to do so. According the the Foreign Policy Article, "On Aug. 1, 2005, Lt. Gen. Keith Alexander reported for duty as the 16th director of the National Security Agency". If that is the right document, planning would have been under Lt Gen Kenneth A. Minihan (February 1996 - March 1999) or if they were super fast, Lt Gen Michael V. Hayden.
The chronology is wrong, or the documents are wrong, or the story is wrong. And you expect people to "Let the NSA geek feel like he's Captain Picard"? It is not going to happen, because people don't work that way. They are already outraged at something that, one way or another, isn't even a story.
Care to defend the "doors that made a 'whoosh' sound when they slid open and closed"? Because I'm sure people will start listening to reason now. Or, do you instead realize the answers to all your "Why" questions above?
al Qaida and the Taliban fighting in Syria constitute a minor percentage of the rebel forces.....
The US backed 'freedom fighters" are a huge mix Gulf backed groups trying to make Syria safe for their vision of the region.
No matter the "percentage" why is the USA backing any group supporting the aims of "rebel forces"?
Domestic spying is now "Benign Information Gathering"
Cold re "They have destabilized multiple countries" so has the CIA http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Covert_United_States_foreign_regime_change_actions
Every country in the region has a database of useful 'freedom fighters' to ship around as needed. The only implications are its little regional wars as usual and the same teams keep showing up year after year after year.
Domestic spying is now "Benign Information Gathering"
I am not sure about navies, but armies have long used various colors to designate branches. Though usually the colors were trimming on a uniform or incorporated into insignia, not the main color.
Fascism should more properly be called corporatism because it is the merger of state and corporate power. -- Mussolini
and then went away and helped NSA's cause and budget in Congress/Committee.
Oops. He did this in the Army's Intelligence and Security Command, he's now been put in charge of the NSA.
(Presumably his new NSA Ultimate Information Dominance Command Centre is all glass and blue high-lights, with pin-lights shining right into people eyes.)
Science is all about firing a drunk pig out of a cannon just to see what happens.
It's not that they sat, it's that they saw this room and their reaction was to become the General allies, instead of thinking that he's completely delusional.
It's that this fake set actually worked on them.
Science is all about firing a drunk pig out of a cannon just to see what happens.
this is a BS article. the real costs are in information collection, analytics, and personnel. the command center needed to be built. why not make it look cool.
it's all marketing. they need to keep their budget going, show that they're fighting the good fight. a command center like this makes the case.
My God can beat up your God. Just kidding...don't take offense. I know there's no God.
Certainly, I couldn't agree more. But that's not what I was talking about.
Certainly, I couldn't agree more. But that's not what I was talking about.
Context here is important. We're not talking about the underling who refuses the unjust order. We're not talking about the outside contractor who goes whistle-blower on his former employer. We're not dealing with the valiant Starfleet captain refusing to accept the judgment of a corrupt admiral. We're talking about the guy giving the underling the unjust order; the employer whose patriotic employees must flee the country after speaking out for its sake; the admiral whose worst corruption is that he breaks the law while thinking himself the valiant captain. We can hope that the underling, the whistleblower, or the captain might stand up to such a man, but this is only a scarce hope. The normal means, indeed the preferred means, of preventing such things is to bind such a man with law and transparency. But an organization such as the NSA denies in word and deed that it should be subject to transparency; it is your Section 31. And we know because of the whistleblower how regularly it flouts the fundamental laws meant to bind it.
This is why I call this man's decision to model himself on Star Trek captains disturbing. It's the context. An NSA Chief will not fancy himself the corrupt admiral whose unjust orders Kirk, Picard, or Sisko refuse since they answer to the higher law of their conscience. He will sit in the captain's chair and, hearing Fourth Amendment like Prime Directive, will regard himself as the valiant rogue captain, out to save the Federation against its own lesser judgment. This is, after all, usually the case with corrupt admirals. Thus I agree with Lewis when he says:
In short, I do not say this because I think all laws ought always to be obeyed. Rather I say this because I think some laws ought to be obeyed. Especially by those in charge, whose lust for power, whose self-righteousness presumption, and above all whose assumption that they know what's best, the laws themselves were meant to contain.
There are many rebel factions, but the vast majority of the fighters are Syrian. They would like to not be subjected to the brutal Syrian Baathist government dictatorship, which is backed by Iran. Do you think that is bad? Suppose it turned out they could manage to form a democratic government like Iraq's?
much of left-wing thought is a kind of playing with fire by people who don't even know that fire is hot - George Orwell
The U.S.A. is doing a good job destabilizing, and toppling the little fiefdoms or threatening to for al-Qaida. Once we consolidate the Middle eastern fiefdoms into one easy to attack target I'm sure he would have been grateful for us doing all the bloody grunt work. Even if we were successful at an impossible task like that without destroying ourselves first, both economically, and morally (pun with morale, intended).
Everything we do over there actually does nothing more then legitimize the different tribal groups attachment to groups like al-Qaida and Hezbollah (or whatever). Every country we invade. Everything we bomb. Just reinforces their holy war against the evil empire from the people who matter most to recruit for them.
Its not really factual, theres books and books written about how we allowed this to happen. And promoted it for two decades. Placing the blame and fear on al-Qaida is as irrational as not getting all the facts and letting history repeat itself.
Tons of whistleblowers who made the sacrifice to attempt to educate the American public about the whole situation. Yet they have been very effectively silenced by organizations working with our intelligence agencies. Over issues of "Secrecy".
So now we are back to nice sounding "many rebel factions" and "vast majority" been not so bad?
Have you been following the regional and international funding for the 'freedom fighters' in Syria Cold? Have you been following the regional weapons shipments for the 'freedom fighters' in Syria?
Have you been following the democratic acts the 'freedom fighters' in Syria commit when they take an area over?
Have you been following the networks offering the skilled 'freedom fighters' for use in Syria?
ie under the black flags most in any normal mil and gov would not want anything to do with.
ie no more secularism in Syria.
Domestic spying is now "Benign Information Gathering"
What is your answer?
much of left-wing thought is a kind of playing with fire by people who don't even know that fire is hot - George Orwell
The irony here is thick. If we were going to have a Tianamin Square incident, it would have happened at Occupy Wall Street. This regime has far more subtly techniques to placate the masses (civilized?). They don't need to use military force for it.
I won't join Slashcott. OTOH, If Beta goes live, I just won't be back until it's fixed. Sorry Dice.
So we destroy secularism in Syria and replace it with a one faith 'democratic' government under black flags?
Do you think the US really wants to fall for another "suppose it turned out" flowers and sweets dream in the region?
Domestic spying is now "Benign Information Gathering"
That is more questions. Do you have an answer? What would you like to see happen?
much of left-wing thought is a kind of playing with fire by people who don't even know that fire is hot - George Orwell
In addition, to the extent that al qaida has limited abilities to strike is the direct result of fighting them and taking out their leadership.
The trouble with being a superpower is that there is no winning. If you act, one side hates you more. If you don't act, the other side hates you more.
Quite so.
much of left-wing thought is a kind of playing with fire by people who don't even know that fire is hot - George Orwell
So was it about terrorism or feeding the lusts of a perverted group of individuals who were able to exploit a billion dollar budget for self gratification and delusions of power over others. Which others were contented to let slide because of information which they gained which they could financially and politically exploit. For those billions spent, I wonder how many billions were made by insiders with free access to the information.
Chaos - everything, everywhere, everywhen
That makes you even more pathetic.
I never thought much of these toy soldiers playing James Bond, but it turns out that even then I overestimated them.
I suppose once you start believing that the voodoo of lie detectors is real the only way to go is down.
There's plenty of good reasons why Bin Laden was hiding out in Afganistan instead of living in Iran - a wish not to be arrested and executed by the Iranian government is probably the main one. So the progress doesn't make it as far as Iran, even that theocracy was not good enough for AQ and considered heretical (and vice versa).
I didn't hear about that either. What was that about?
http://newsfeed.time.com/2013/09/11/2-million-bikers-to-dc-motorcycle-riders-roll-into-washington/
It was about not getting a permit to demonstrate their Patriotism. While a Muslim group did. People pretty pissed at the beucratic asshats in DC right now.
Basically a "Veterans" day type parade/demonstration. Very lawful, not even civil disobedience. Until they were denied permits.
Since a Hollywood set designer was involved it should be enough to ring alarm bells with the adult supervision. Obviously there was a complete lack of adult supervision for these toy soldiers.
The far greatest threat that al Qaida poses is that the government is using them as an excuse to trample civil liberties. Otherwise, those impotent, pissant losers aren't even worth worrying about.
"[Regarding the 'cloud,'] ownership was what made America different than Russia." -- Woz
As long Majel Barrett responds to the voice commands, it's money well spent.
They feared that it could be used to suppress protest or support unpopular rule.
Irrational fears, indeed. We all know that you're eight times more likely to die at the hands of a policeman in the US than by acts of terrorism, right?
The difference between you and a rational person is you're a sniveling coward who doesn't deserve the freedom you're apparently so willing to throw away.
al Qaida are a worthless pile of insane sociopaths who managed to get lucky once. They're not a credible threat to the United States on any significant scale, and they sure as Hell aren't worth allowing our civil rights to be fucked over by the NSA in order to combat!
And even if they were a credible threat, IT'S GODDAMN WORTH IT to be killed rather than subjugated by our own fear. I would rather get blown up than live in the police state that treasonous, cowardly assholes like you are trying so fucking hard to create!
Now, go fuck off and hide under a rock or something if you're so damn scared. But leave my rights and freedoms alone!
"[Regarding the 'cloud,'] ownership was what made America different than Russia." -- Woz
Claiming that an enemy that has managed to kill 3,000 people in a single day "isn't a threat" isn't rational, it isn't fear, it's denial.
You're right. Your government has managed to kill this many and more in a single day many times over, They are a massive threat. Anyone who thinks the US gov had nothing to do with it are the ones in denial.
Wanna buy a shirt?
https://www.redbubble.com/people/stealthfinger/shop?asc=u
The irony here is thick. If we were going to have a Tianamin Square incident, it would have happened at Occupy Wall Street. This regime has far more subtly techniques to placate the masses (civilized?). They don't need to use military force for it.
Occupy Wall Street was nowhere near a serious protest, let alone actual rebellion. There was no organisation, no goals, just a loose gathering of people who had nothing in common besides "I dont like something" and thought it would be a good idea to stand in one place together. Even the most dim-witted, backwater banana republic dictator knows you just wait that one out until they all go home for supper. I mean they didn't have an actual goal, no manifesto, not even a somewhat clear idea of what they wanted.
There was no need to send anyone in, except for a few cleaners to pick up the discarded McDonalds wrappers after it dissipated.
Calling someone a "hater" only means you can not rationally rebut their argument.
Nah you guys are right Occupy was a joke. By verge, I say decades, shits pretty bad economically here. Worse than it was 15 years ago and we were rattling sabers here in the south about it while CNN was reporting on the first Iraq war. So we'll see in another 15 years what goes down. But shits looking uglier every year.
If people acted more rationally they wouldn't deny that terrorism is a problem. And no, we don't live in the most fearful society in history. A fundamental error you are making is not being able to discern the difference between willful human action and random accidents.
Hahahaha.
Ok, let's test this.
Are all the homicides in the US also 'random accidents'?
I bet you it's embedded in a mountain shaped like a skull!
Wanna buy a shirt?
https://www.redbubble.com/people/stealthfinger/shop?asc=u
Uh, yeah. Very Tiananmen Square like. And there was organization, it just wasn't particularly centralized or well coordinated.
"University students who marched and gathered in Tiananmen Square to mourn Hu also voiced grievances against inflation, limited career prospects, and corruption of the party elite. They called for government accountability, freedom of the press, freedom of speech, and the restoration of workers' control over industry." -- wikipedia
Sound familiar?
Neither was Tiananmen Square. It was merely the seed of something the Chinese leaders saw as dangerous. It could have eventually lead to revolution. Here we've got the same thing, but our leaders are going to use very different tactics to defuse it. We're already pre-conditioned to be passive with short attention spans, and easily befuddled by complex issues.
To be fair, Tiananmen square did have at least an order of magnitude more protesters. How much of that may be a function of their larger population is unclear.
Yes, they did... they had several (I haven't read them either, but they had them)... and yes they did.
I won't join Slashcott. OTOH, If Beta goes live, I just won't be back until it's fixed. Sorry Dice.
This story is about how this general Alexander character is a powermad nutbag. Pointing over there and yelling "but, AQ" isn't changing that.
Gosh, thanks. That must be why the other ships call me Meatfucker -- GCU Grey Area (Eccentric)
it probably cost at least as much as one tomahawk.
but furthermore, it's useless as a real control center. you know it from the name.. dominance.
world was created 5 seconds before this post as it is.
That's interesting, I can switch nouns around in your post and it still comes out sensibly.
Yes, our government is doing everything they can to harm us. The sad thing is Muslims seem to be doing everything they can to help our government (and the Government Brotherhood).
Burroughs once said of information, " Let's cut it up and see what it REALLY means."
*Repent!Quit Your Job!Slack Off!The World Ends Tomorrow and You May Die!
Unless you are Louis of France.
*Repent!Quit Your Job!Slack Off!The World Ends Tomorrow and You May Die!
I'd be alright if our current Bill of rights was worth more than toilet paper.
*Repent!Quit Your Job!Slack Off!The World Ends Tomorrow and You May Die!
Gives me the impression that the head of the NSA is a giant fucking retard and those around him aren't much better. Kinda like cops of all walks.
I bet he's so busy with work he wouldn't even notice if his wife were carrying my bastard.
Just practice the opposite of terrorism; fuckism. When you have an enemy, go seduce his old lady. Screw her till she cuts him off. Keep it that way. Rinse, repeat.
*Repent!Quit Your Job!Slack Off!The World Ends Tomorrow and You May Die!
... No matter the "percentage" why is the USA backing any group supporting the aims of "rebel forces"?
That's a very good question, one that I've been asking myself. I'd say that the pressure to intervene probably originates with special interest groups that are pressuring the western governments to "do something". Such interest groups operate as "nonpartisan" or "neutral" NGOs that want to do nothing but help "civilians" who are being killed, maimed, starved, and driven from their homes into refugee camps. I'm thinking of groups like Doctors Without Borders, Catholic Relief Services, Save the Children, etc. Are these groups evil? Well, how can saving children, providing medical aid to wounded "civilians", and feeding refugees be wrong?
Maybe it can't be evil to do these things, but it can sure skew your perspective. What's happening in Syria is a civil war. The whole notion of "civilians" has become ephemeral in these days of irregular warfare, but this is especially true in a civil war: in a civil war, nobody is a civilian. Someone can be a fighter one day, and an "injured civilian" on the next. So when such charitable NGOs provide humanitarian aid to one side in the war, they are taking sides. Even medical treatment and food are weapons in a war; in addition, anyone who is involved in such work is going to see the people they are dealing with as the good guys, and the other side as evil oppressors. So they start churning out press releases and videos of mutilated children; these media carry the implicit or explicit message that the "other side" —and only the other side—is doing evil. And of course we must stop evil.
That's how we arrived at the moral logic that was driving the Obama administration until the Secretary of State accidentally short-circuited the official policy with his off-hand remark that the Syrian government has the option of giving up its chemical weapons. That moral logic, as far as I can tell, was as follows: "The Bad People have killed innocent civilians with cruel weapons of which we disapprove. We must now kill an indefinite number of Bad People with approved weapons so that the moral ledger will once again be balanced." This is, of course, nuts.
It is often hard to accept—especially for Americans—that there is evil in the world that cannot be stopped without doing more evil. That sometimes, the right thing to do is nothing.
Great men are almost always bad men--Lord Acton's Corollary
Or they think it's all about image.
So now we know Keith Alexander is a grandiose narcissist. This is who we are forced to give all our secrets to "for the greater good". We are spied by a bunch of psychopaths. Don't expect anything good coming ouf of it. Expect misery, blood, terror and tears - this is the only thing you can expect from psychopaths wielding so much power as Keith Alexander does.
It probably cost 10-20 times the average annual US wage more than a straightforward and more functional bullpen office layout.
May the Maths Be with you!
I bet they love this part of Starfleet.
"I don't which is worse, that everyone has a price, or that the price is always so low"--Hobbes
That article's idiotic. He's arguing that we're not overreacting to terrorists because the damage caused by our overreaction warrants an overreaction so that it won't happen again and cause us to overreact. The only way to break the cycle of this chicken-and-egg problem is to STOP OVERREACTING. Leading back to the point he's arguing against.
"When information is power, privacy is freedom" - Jah-Wren Ryel
Oh yes, "freedom fighters". But, as George Carlin once pointed out, if firefighters fight fires and crime fighters fight crime, what do freedom fighters fight?
I am officially gone from
If we were going to have a Tianamin Square incident, it would have happened at Occupy Wall Street.
The government didn't need tanks, but it sure put down Occupy Wall Street by force.
The end of the protest in the park in New York was riot police blocking all entrances and exits to the area around the protest (including physically preventing several New York City Council members from observing), barging into the park at 3 AM when most of the protesters were asleep and beating anyone who didn't leave quickly enough, followed by destroying the private property that was left behind. This was after they had tried arresting everyone involved, pepper-spraying protesters (and some non-protesters who just happened to be in the wrong place at the wrong time) for the crime of standing on a sidewalk holding a sign, running over protesters with motorcycles, all with the full support of police chief Ray Kelly and mayor Michael Bloomberg.
In other cities, particularly Oakland, police also used force to end the protests as well.
I am officially gone from
You're absolutely right, nature doesn't give a shit how hard you work or how honest you are (other than the ways it would hurt you) or how smart you are (unless you can use those smarts to gather more resources for yourself). This is how it's always been, nature doesn't give a fuck. Work ethic, the value of honesty and intellectualism are artificial human constructs and the only way to make things better is to create more artificial constructs within the biggest artificial construct, human society, to reward them. Good luck doing that while those who are in control of these constructs are enjoying the status quo so much though.
"When information is power, privacy is freedom" - Jah-Wren Ryel
An "Information Dominance Center" arranged more like a throne room than a functional working environment...I guess when a human gets a taste of 2 of the 3 aspects of godhood, it goes to their head a bit.
"When information is power, privacy is freedom" - Jah-Wren Ryel
recent tapes by Ayman al-Zawahiri ... calling for ...not buying stuff made in America.
That's OK, I'm pretty sure Doritos aren't halal.
the preceding comment is my own and in no way reflects the opinion of the Joint Chiefs of Staff
Alexander, you st00pid n00b, I like my world control centers ST style. :TOS here, since that would be recognizing inferior sequels...
no
the preceding comment is my own and in no way reflects the opinion of the Joint Chiefs of Staff
This story is useless without pics
Thanks for pointing out that this was done a while ago FLM, I was starting to worry about the prevalence of CRT monitors in this purported "high-tech" panopticon. And that "captain's chair" looks kind of just stuck-in there, not nicely integrated like a real H*llywood control center.
All-in-all, I'm disappointed congressmen would be wowed by this, it certainly doesn't pass muster with my highly-refined aesthetic sense.
Also, shouldn't this really be all Tom Cruise "Minority Report" style?!
Or with VR googgles like Klytus' secret police monitoring center in the 80's Flash Gordon movie?
Maybe the best way to mock this is to start digging up real cringeworthy ST fan apartment remodels to compare it to.
the preceding comment is my own and in no way reflects the opinion of the Joint Chiefs of Staff
You'd think an agency that focuses on spying, lying, and cloak and dagger type shit they'd have gone with a Romulan war bird rather than a federation star ship.
I'm sure that's where Roddenberry got the idea of colored uniforms to designate branch (ops blue and engineering red).
Not to be pedantic, but I believe ops was gold, science/medical were blue, engineering and security were red. That's why red shirts kept getting killed-- it was the color worn by the security personnel who were assigned to protect the rest of the crew.
... and sometimes the right thing to do is kill a few hundred people to prevent something like that from happening again. Evil is a pretty loose concept. I'm by no means an Obama fan. I don't really care for Neo-Cons at all, but the use of force was called for in this instance. Now we have a "peaceful" solution, that will result in a delay of a few weeks, or months, and we will end up needing to blow up Syria for a whole new list of reasons. We want both sides to take heavy losses, and to keep doing that for aslong as possible, while staying inside the boarders of Syria. The asymetry of the conflict is getting in the way of our, unstated, goal so the US will find a way to act. I would prefer that instead of killing people to insure they continue killing eachother, that we kill people to prevent the use of CBRN weapons.
Or, do you instead realize the answers to all your "Why" questions above?
I have only realized that there are now two groups of pompous and arrogant assholes with a distorted view of the world: The NSA, and the NSA's detractors.
#fuckbeta #iamslashdot #dicemustdie
Resistance is Futile, you will be assimilated...
Seriously? Sounds like someone is overcompensating...
I've got to start using that in abortion debates. I just realized that Planned Parenthood, to a pro-lifer, kills people far more efficiently than al Qaida.
SJW: a person who perceives an injustice, and while correcting it, commits a greater injustice.
From the nineties: it's the end of Wrath of Khan, Kirk alone is on the bridge, with smoke in the air, and Khan's ship is coming about on the viewscreen.
Just then a tall man in a white suit walks onto the bridge, taps Captain Kirk on the shoulder, and announces, "Lt. Hooker[1], your fantasy is over."[2]
Where's that guy in the white suit when we need him, to end Alexander's fantasy?
mark
1. Google the tv series, T.J. Hooker and Shatner
2. Fantasy Island reference.
TFA links to a PDF showing the command center itself (posted by the architects). That server, in turn, has hit "Bandwidth Limit Exceeded." First time in ages I've seen something Slashdotted. Also, ISTR the Navy examining the bridge design from ST:TOS for ideas for the bridges of their own ships. So in amongst the pillorying of this particular commander and the US Government in general, we should be saluting Matt Jefferies for coming up with so robust a design for a command center. Comments are my own.
Save Maine's economy: write stuff down. All comments are exclusively my own, not my employer.
...eight times more likely to die at the hands of a policeman in the US than by acts of terrorism...
So I'm more likely to die by terrorist action, than to die by terrorist action? I'll have to think about that one.
[not really joking, but wishing I were...]
"What in the name of Fats Waller is that?"
"A four-foot prune."
Honestly back when the atmosphere wasn't so hostile against the NSA, they could have put this in a recruiting pamphlet and the tech news pages would be buzzing with jokes and approval instead of condemnation. Google has giant statues of cupcakes and jelly beans, Facebook has free computer accessory vending machines, and the NSA has Star Trek command centers. It's a world with fierce competition to tempt the best minds to join you with perks, including atmosphere, and every company in the world spends way too much time trying to make their conference room one-up the competition to impress visitors (in this case congressional overseers). Sure, the NSA is funded by tax money. Does that really mean you expect everyone working there to live in drab undecorated concrete rooms?
This Washington Post bit (hopefully you don't need to sign on to your Amazon account to get access to it :-)) says
assuming the "sources" are actually telling the truth.
Still a bit WTF, however.
Apparently actor Jeffrey Hunter gave an interview with a TV magazine (TV Guide??) around 1966 where he stated that the RAND Corporation was controlling the Star Trek episodes with their vision of the future. So is it that Star Trek and Hollywood influenced the NSA? Or is it that the military industrial complex influenced the NSA?
"Controlling", or "influencing"? I.e., did they:
My guess is it's one of the latter two, in which case it would in part be a case of "the military-industrial complex indirectly influenced, err, umm, the military-industrial complex" (which would make it especially funny if the people who said "make it so" were unaware that Star Trek had been RAND-Corporation influenced).
You're right. Para-military thugs work just as well.
You wouldn't happen to have a newsletter, would you?
Even then, 15/16 times it's still pretty good.
It's cold fjord, the resident NSA bootlicker. If you check his post history, there hasn't been a single Slashdot story which referred to some or other abuse of personal rights and freedoms by US government where he didn't immediately jump in and start telling everyone how teh evil Moslems are going to force them to pay jizya while forcibly converting them all to Islam after beheading them, if they don't bend down and let the NSA go in dry and hard. I don't even know why anyone is bothering to reply to him at this point, it's the same repetitive thing every time.
The sad part is, I'm pretty sure that he's not even getting a dime for it. He's just one of those people who are really that afraid.
They did use military force -- just not tanks.
!#@%*)anks for hanging up the phone, dear.
“Look on my works , YE mighty, AND DESPAIR!” Ozymandias
Thanks for that, looks like I've got to get my news some way other than filtered through Rupert Murdoch.
Defending a consulate, which is located in a foreign country, doesn't even slightly begin to give any kind of excuse whatsoever for any intelligence actions within the United States itself. Spy on the locals near the consulate all you want; that was never a problem. But that's all you need to do.
Who the fuck cares? Nothing that happens in Syria poses any kind of threat to us within the United States itself.
Both of your red herring arguments completely fail to be any sort of justification for the NSA's (and other TLAs', I'm sure) domestic totalitarianism.
"[Regarding the 'cloud,'] ownership was what made America different than Russia." -- Woz
Not military force. Overzealous police force has been reported, but nothing military grade.
I won't join Slashcott. OTOH, If Beta goes live, I just won't be back until it's fixed. Sorry Dice.
Make it so.
An important change for education.
Everything they can do to harm us is still less of a threat than cops, heart disease, canacer, and plentyof other things. They could be pure, unadulterated evil, but they are fucking impotent.
This is my signature. There are many like it, but this one is mine.
You are 100% correct.
Although our noses are not quite as brown just yet.
But our leaders have been adding huge amount of US produced fibre to their diet so it won't be long now!
I think the question is what the purpose of the room is.
In a warship during combat the success of the mission relies on the person making the decisions having a complete understanding of the tactical situation and their instructions being quickly relayed. Time is of the essence.
I could see the value in a similar room design for a manually-fought-in-realtime cyber-warfare action. What I would question is whether there would ever be a manually-fought-in-realtime cyber-warfare action. There would be tons of planning which would happen in cube farms and such (just like military planning), and then somebody would push a button and the mission would succeed or fail in a matter of milliseconds.
Maybe if the mission was to hack into some server and do espionage you might have a room like this, so that you could coordinate the use of pre-developed tools but react to what you find. The initial intrusion would be pre-planned, but once you're in you need to look around and find stuff, and likely have SMEs who can interpret what you find (the programmers can retrieve the nuclear weapon plans, but it would be good to have a nuclear weapon designer on-hand to tell you what to grab and where to go next).
However, that would be about running an individual operation, not the entire NSA. Generals don't sit in fancy bridges - that is for Captains. They certainly have situation rooms, and the NSA would probably do better to imitate one of those if they want to have some general solution for large-scale info-warfare operation coordination.
Which one? Louis XIV was the fracking Sun King. Louis XVI was the one who lost his head.
These days, with so many police forces grabbing surplus gear from the military, the distinction is subtle at best.
!#@%*)anks for hanging up the phone, dear.
My favorite IDC appeared in my favorite comic Barry Ween (this isn't quite it, but in the same facility: http://www.bing.com/images/search?q=Barry+ween+boy+genius+comic&qpvt=Barry+ween+boy+genius+comic&FORM=IGRE#view=detail&id=FE11423851C2FA77D4FBA87252DBB38532D0C4EF&selectedIndex=51)
Give the man a cookie.
*Repent!Quit Your Job!Slack Off!The World Ends Tomorrow and You May Die!
Oh, common. By that definition you have military grade boots, and military grade flashlights, and military grade sleeping bags... yes, all technically true, and all beside the point.
They didn't use anything (to my knowledge) that isn't normally stocked by large police departments. If the police and military happen to use the same tear gas, that doesn't make it military grade from a protest suppression point-of-view. (Using it in this context may be controversial in its own right, but there are legitimate police uses of the stuff.)
I won't join Slashcott. OTOH, If Beta goes live, I just won't be back until it's fixed. Sorry Dice.
OK, fair enough. But how much of that equipment did they have, say, 20 years ago? And how many police departments actually need things like 5-gallon canisters for pepper spray?
!#@%*)anks for hanging up the phone, dear.
still somewhat awesome ... glad it werent my tax dollars though, sure this is not a september fool's ? it seems somewhat unreal that this is even possible
Free speech was meant to be free for all... how can anyone grow up in a nanny state ?
My guess would be most of it... and police departments worried about a re-occurrence of the OJ Simpson riots. (Trayvon Martin, losing a pro-sports game, etc)
(IOW those with large minority populations which feel the laws are written by the oppressive majority and are constantly looking for excuses to show their anger through a bizarre display of destroying one another's property.)
I won't join Slashcott. OTOH, If Beta goes live, I just won't be back until it's fixed. Sorry Dice.
One of my favorite waste activities to bitch about is mandatory meetings where the whole organization has to be present for an hour or two. I've been to exactly two of those in more than a decade of federal service that I thought were well worth the time spent. I figured out the other day that each time our self absorbed leadership has one where I work now it cost roughly $18,000 in lost man hours per 60 minutes of briefing.