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London Tube Cleaners Don't Want Fingerprint Clock-in
Bismillah writes "Biometrics is hot stuff, not just for Apple but cleaning companies like the UK division of Denmark's IIS which tidies the London Underground railway network. However, the cleaners aren't happy about having to clock in and out with biometric fingerprint sensors, and are taking industrial action to stop the practice."
When I worked in a NOC for a major bank, we had full hand scanners, explosives sniffers and video records to endure when we clocked in. That was fifteen years ago. Just be happy you have a job.
I wouldn't want to touch anything down there barehanded either.
"A soft answer turneth away wrath. Once wrath is looking the other way, shoot it in the head."
Not the kind of place I'd want to stick my finger either.
The only "civil liberty" it attacks is the ability to fraudulently sign in for someone else. This is how unions get a bad name. Bio-metrics are used for time card validation on many places and it is neither "draconian" nor "an attack on civil liberties".
The article then goes on to talk about biometric authentication on mobile devices which has nothing to do with biometric time card sign ins. This is another sensationalistic piece which brings together unrelated information in an attempt to make a big splash.
The only "civil liberty" it attacks is the ability to fraudulently sign in for someone else.
Says another of Big Brother's useful idiots.
Yes, we know they do lots of jobs with their hands. Hand-jobs, if you will. The FP readers are accurate enough to work in almost any conditions.
Don't be wimps. Get the model number of the equipment, research how it works, and circumvent. The hard part is keeping the circumvention from management, unless they are participants. I enjoy modern tech. Old school tech like video cameras are tricky. It always raises suspicion when employees are clocking in wearing gorilla masks. One position I had used special encrypted key chain tokens to open the doors, which also clocked you in. Nice, but after a few weeks of trials I found the encryption was not so tough. I could copy other IDs as they walked by in the pub. It was as difficult as those smart cards they use instead of quarters at the laundry. I had $2,000 on my laundry card to make sure it didn't run out.
Just because it's easy to steal doesn't mean it's okay.
The tube cleaners are refusing to go down in the tub station at midnight (because it's so dangerous).
I'm currently undecided if this is a good thing or not. On one hand, I'm against technology for the sake of technology. Using computers and touch screens because they are new and fancy is stupid when a pen and paper will do. It's one thing to have biometrics in clean areas like banks and office buildings, it's another to have then in maintenance areas. How long before they start to fail and workers are not getting paid because they can't clock in due to dirt and grease build up.
On the other hand, They have really failed to outline how their civil liberties are being attacked. To what extent can someones thumbprint be abused and how will this affect workers and their rights. None of that was even attempted to be explained.
To anyone saying that the workers just want to fraudulently sign in for someone else and abuse the system needs to try again and come up with a real argument. The assumption that workers just want to screw over employers is elitist and is a part of the same poor logic of "If you have nothing to hide, you have nothing to worry about." It completely side steps the real issues and disguises the technology as only hurting the bad people. While I don't deny that fraud probably happens, there is no way that fraud is the sole reason for rejection of biometrics. Give real reasons for it, not made up reasons for why the are against it.
AKA "Going on strike"..........
"The average reporter we talk to is 27 years old......They literally know nothing." - Ben Rhodes
These people do actual work with their hands, they are not chair faggots sitting in an office sipping Nespressos. Their fingerprints must be full of cracks and chemical burns anyways, how can you be sure it'll work?
The point for the FP scanners is not if they works or not. For the "chair faggots sitting in an office sipping Nespressos", the point in installing the FP is to make sure the workers aren't paid if they aren't detected as present on the job (isn't this the very purpose of clocking-in?).
Now, consider what you describe in the context of the above stated purpose: if a worker is not recognized by the FP scanner (but potentially s/he works anyway), is there any problem?. Maybe there is one, but... not for the management, no.
Questions raise, answers kill. Raise questions to stay alive.
This is exactly where technology like this will be deployed. They will say you know what it is just a slight inconvenience to the menial tube workers. Then eventually the government and other employers will hand out some no bid contract to some corporation to install these in all places as self identification methods. This technology must be fervently resisted before it is too late. If you don't believe me, just look at the how the TSA is expanding operations from airports to rail stations, highways, and bus depots.
This will cost money and will eventually fail. That is control and humiliation for the sake of it.
Should have this happen in North Korea, you would have considered it differently.
In our local transport system here in france, some stupid bureaucrates have decided we must "validate" our card altrough our money has been taken out of our banking account the month before ! It required a costly system, no doubt, paid twice its real value. But you have no garantee there will have a train.
Money for control, no money for service.
What does it mean, "appended to the end of comments you post"
I wouldn't want to touch the same biometric surface because I don't know where that finger has been.
On an iPhone, probably only a few people would touch the sensor, but a reader used by a wide population, no thanks, not unless I can wash my hands afterwards.
Right....but the AC said that it's the Peter Principle at work. That is, the situation they described (using inappropriate metrics of suitability for a job, like being able to clock in at the right time as a judgement of being able to clean the tube station) is an example of something that might happen when the manager is an employee who has risen beyond their level of competence.
It is pitch black. You are likely to be eaten by a grue.
Their data is obviously 100% secure so I don't really see any problems. Cleaning companies are famous for their rigid IT infrastructure, since their operational margin is huge and they have tons of cash to spend. There is also no market for hundreds (thousands?) of fingerprints with matching names and other personal data on a black market. So what could possibly go wrong?
Uhm, no. This is the Peter Principle:...http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peter_Principle
Cute.
He quotes the actual book.
You contradict him citing the Wikipedia article summary about the book.
It is a sad world when people treat Wikipedia (a tertiary source) as more authoritative than the primary source.
//TODO: Think of witty sig statement
"Biometrics is hot stuff"
Really? When I worked at a major supermarket chain, they were using fingerprint scanners for clocking on/off. That was 2004 and I doubt they were early adopters.
This technology is not new.
Where is moderation: -1 False?
When I worked at part-time job at the local Woolworths deli as a young, pimply faced 15 year old we clocked in and out with our fingerprints... in 1995. The future is, well... 18 years ago I guess.
Care to cite any studies or article where this has happened? Otherwise it is pure conjecture on your part.
Cant one make a wax mould, pour in silicone, then just pass it round like a clock in card anyway?
Ah, wishing for mod points now...
Why the protests??. Aah, right, so you want to be able to get your buddy check in for you just incase your a bit late.. mmhm.
If wishes were mod-points, we'd all be +5.
Now if they had a 3D printer, some gel and a latent finger print. They could make a finger with some hollywood technigues of making prosthetics. http://www.tgdaily.com/mobility-brief/79776-iphone-5s-haters-heres-how-you-steal-a-fingerprint having fun beating the system.
But this isn't a solution. Even if it works for a bit it will be gamed almost immediately to the point of being useless. Oh, except to the people who are paid millions to install and support the new system.
Every secured environment I've worked in they've given me a badge to the door. If they cared to further scrutinize, sometimes there was biometrics but often times that was optional. In every case I could get by with no badge and no biometrics by showing my ID to the guard.
The guard, or in this case, the employee supervisor, is what is missing here.
The problem they're apparently trying to fix with technology is that they're so disconnected from their employees that nobody in management ever even sees these people, or if they do they look on them as a nameless, faceless trash worker.
That's purely a social and structural issue of their company.
Standing by stuff like "slipper slope" and "You last statement" isn't much of an accomplishment.
Primary sources are not reliable, according to Wikipedia wisdom. :-P
Obviously. Primary sources suck balls. Most people writing into their diary have no idea about shit, and people writing this kind of business management crap are making most of it up anyway and have a dearth of actual data. Secondary and tertiary sources have to at the very least judge the relative worth of primary sources, and will usually tell you how well they match up to each other.
Actually he cited a review of said book, not the actual book.
ISS.
But ... with a fingerprint sensor at a work entry point there is one less union worker checking people in.
And unions want to be just like government work, where no job is ever eliminated.
There's a bunch of problems with "clocking in as someone else"
1) If there's a disaster and they need to know "who are we searching for", time card records are a good source
2) There are wage and hour laws designed to prevent employer abuse of employees (e.g. overtime rules). Allowing one person to clock in as another opens the door to abuse: (you take my shift or I'll report that you were doing drugs in the restroom on break) (I don't care if you've got to get home, and I'm not paying overtime, clock in as Joe Blow for second shift)
3) Insurance rates and payments (worker's comp, unemployment) are set by number of hours worked/dollars paid.
4) Liability issues with "were you at work when you received this injury"
5) Safety issues with working hours (OK, now that you've driven that bus as John Doe for 8 hours and you've hit your max duty hour limit, you can sign is a Richard Roe and do another shift)
Yes, many employers have inflexible policies on work shifts, either out of inertia or bad management. But perturbing the record keeping to work around it is a bad solution. Fix the underlying problem, don't band aid it.
At my current job I don't know if I place the fingerprint everyday or just hack the database.
Db accessible remotely via windows network share in a access protected password DB, it's clear I'm the only tech guy here.
Probably the reason they don't want fingerprint scanners is that its too easy for officials to get a clean print when the commit a crime or felony. I'm sure that the scanners are somehow tied in the law enforcement system...
I'm being serious here: what is the down side to someone having your fingerprint on file? Can they steal your identity? Access your bank account? Break into your home? I would argue if you answer 'Yes' to any of those, then those things aren't actually safe.
Why don't we just agree that fingerprints shouldn't be used for important things. For example...whenever I sign up to a forum that I'll post to once or twice...the password is almost always a word, all lower case, no symbols or numbers. Just a word. Why? Because I don't care if someone hacks that forum account. What're they gonna do...deface it?
Same for this fingerprint system. What're they gonna do? Clock me in so that I get paid when I'm not working? (Also...that's how the system will be gamed...and it's the employer's problem to fix not mine). Personally I'd be more worried about someone clocking me OUT.
I see a lot of doom and gloom here so I want an actual reason why fingerprint scanners are a bad idea, without some crazy-ass tinfoil hat logic where the government gets your fingerprint and extorts a confession from you for a crime you didn't do.
Finally, after a few hundred posts someone raises the underlying point from a management view.
"the point in installing the FP is to make sure the workers aren't paid if they aren't detected as present on the job (isn't this the very purpose of clocking-in?)."
Talk about a lazy and expensive solution to a minor problem. The workers can argue invasion of liberties and what not, but the point would that management is themselves lazy. Installing a high tech time clock only ensure that workers come and go, but does it do anything to validate the standard of work, to elevate the moral or pride of an employee? No. It just ensures human x arrived on time and left on time. How nice.
I feel that business would be better served if they did away with the hourly work process and hired everyone as salary. Now what is required of management is the actual job of managing "projects" even it is cleaning bathrooms or washing floors. A standard is applied and a worker assigned to that project is assessed, just like an engineer or programmer, on the quality of the job, not the time put in. Take it one step further and begin to open up a reward system. Finish early and meet or exceed the standards, feel free to go home, want to do more assign more work and consider a person like that more viable for promotion in the future.
Hourly work rewards mediocrity. It asks someone to work to the lowest common denominator, time without a care for quality. Salary can be abused, but a Union that actively monitored project requirement and assignment could help reduce that abuse. Lazy management breeds a lazy work force and the thread that ties them together is a time clock.
Life is a great ride, the vehicle doesn't matter
+2 is the worst level to reach. It hints at a free bonus point. Uhh.
You could also use the workers Mobiles and a series of QR codes to verify that the workers are "in motion"
on 16092013 @ 09:00 Bob Smythe tagged QR code number 956D-12F3 (set Bob Smythe to On Shift) ... ...
on 16092013 @ 09:15 Bob Smythe tagged 956D-12M0 (east 5 Gents )
on 16092013 @ 12:15 Bob Smythe tagged 956D-12EE (exit portal set Bob Smythe to LUNCH)
on 16092013 @ 12:45 Bob Smythe tagged 956D-12EE (exit portal set Bob Smythe to On Shift)
on 16092013 @ 17:00 Bob Smythe tagged 956D-12F3 (set Bob Smythe to Off Shift)
do they really think that fingerprint scanners will work well with folks that regularly work with some of the nastiest Chems around??
How many of the worker still HAVE readable fingerprints??
(oh btw gloves can/do fail and even if they don't just waving a broom around does nasty things to your fingertips)
Any person using FTFY or editing my postings agrees to a US$50.00 charge
How is the scanning of a fingerprint to clock in and out of work a violation of civil liberties, exactly?
File under 'M' for 'Manic ranting'
So I've been fingerprinted about 6 times in my life, for various things ranging from employment/background checks/FINRA to weapons permits. I also use handscanners at datacenters and office buildings (which utilize some sort of scan of the shape of the back of my hand). Are my prints/biometrics stored somewhere? For the hand scanner, obviously some sort of representation of my hand is indeed stored on an in-house server. As for ink fingerprints or scanned fingerprints I've done over the years being stored-- don't know... don't care. I've never been "harassed" in any way shape or form due to this. I don't ever expect to BE harassed in any way shape or form. Of course, if I engage in some sort of criminal activity, I would care. Am I afraid of being falsely accused? Of course not. Am I just an apathetic naive simpleton, who by not caring has forfeited some sort of "civil rights" that will allow others to somehow be abused based on my "precedent". Seriously doubt it, but of course I'll be accused of that at least anyway. Oh well. And I sometimes make faces at surveillance cameras too, but don't really care either that they are "watching" me walk down a public street. Of course, if the expense of installing and using these systems was justified by them actually PREVENTING crimes, well....
Some industries used to have piece-work: you'd get paid a certain amount per part completed, assuming the majority of your parts were good (happened in electronics, clothing, etc.). Mechanized production tends to make this infeasible, these days, though.
This is why we can't have nice things.
The tube is a safety critical system, "behavior that supports the rules" = safe behaviour. Making up your own mind will be unsafe, because the rules are managed as a whole system and not focused on you the individual. For example, everybody else is checking out and you're last in the queue. You realise you have left a lamp in the tunnel, and decide to go back for it. The _rules_ say everybody has to check back in, and then a team must go together to fetch the lamp, bring it back and check out. But fuck the rules right? What time waster invented that rule? I'll go back, you guys check out for me and I'll catch you later.
And that's how a cleaner gets hit by a train, which was released because "The team was out of the tunnel" and the rules say only a whole team can go into a tunnel not "except if you left a lamp behind and you'll only be like five minutes and it would be stupid for everyone to come back".
And this shit REALLY HAPPENS. People who feel they shouldn't have to obey rules, think they're smarter than those stupid idiots who got promoted to management. They skip the safety briefing "You all know the drill. Let's get it done". They stay on the line when trains approach "It's a Brighton train, those are always on the fast line and we're working on the slow". They bully colleagues who want to obey the rules, they lie to inspectors, and then one day they fuck up and get themselves or a colleague killed and only THEN finally does it sink in. The rules are there for a reason. If you believe the rules are unsafe it, report it. But if you just don't care to obey the rules, go be a DJ or paint portraits or something, don't work on my railway you incompetent fuck.
Glad you admitted the "slippery slope" basis. Like all "slipper slope" arguments this one is an informal fallacy. You last statement would be considered a "red herring", another informal fallacy, as the TSA has nothing to do with Underground cleaner time sheets.
Your statements have two equivocations.
One: an informal fallacy is not necessarily a fallacy or, if you prefer the proper term for what has happened, a fallacy fallacy. Assuming there is an argumentative error when there is only a structural one(in this case only potentially).
Two: equivocating the TSA and underground cleaner time sheets. The original comparison, when analyzed charitably (something that is well known to be mandatory in formal logic) is how technology pressed into service in one marginal area for organizational advantage will eventually spread to cover larger areas. Another example, the internet. Once for academics and DoD people to communicate more effectively, the internet has now spread to the entire planet within one lifetime.
Essentially his argument is cogent and yours is not even valid.
If wishes were mod-points, we'd all be +5.
I'd be at +11 (you insensitive clod)
https://app.box.com/WitthoftResume Code: https://github.com/cellocgw
I used to work at a super market that introduced a fingerprint system to clock on & off, and I ran into a much more immediate and serious issue - the majority of the time the scanner just could not read my fingerprints and I wouldn't get paid correctly as a result! A couple of other workers had similar issues, but I was by far the worst affected. I've also had similar issues with other finger print systems - when I used someone's laptop that could show an image of my fingerprints, we saw that there were huge missing sections in the middle. It also delayed my entry into Hawaii (fortunately their finger print system seems much better - it just took it a bit longer than usual to read my finger print). For a while at the supermarket this was OK as I couldn't even register in the system and was able to keep using the old system, but eventually management insisted that I had to register because they wanted to get rid of the old system. So, one shift instead of doing any work I had to stay with one of the office girls trying to register my fingerprints over and over until it finally managed to read one. You can guess what happened next - I wasn't able to use the old system and every single time I came into work or left I would have to try over and over for the damn thing to recognise me - and quite often it just wouldn't - leading to me not getting paid properly. If it managed to recognise me clocking on but couldn't recognise me clocking off the system would assume I worked for three hours (the legal minimum shift), even though I typically worked a five or more hour shift. It also meant that I would often delay the night manager from going home since I was the night-fill captain and we were supposed to leave together after everyone else (they had previously had a problem with a night manager who did their "shopping" after everyone else had gone home). When I couldn't clock on or off I ended up having to manually fill out a time sheet and get it signed by a manager and hand it to one of the office girls - only problem was they went home hours before I did (I was the night-fill captain, remember?) so I couldn't hand it to them in person at the end of my shift and half the time the sheet would go unnoticed by the office girl in the morning. It was a real nightmare and just one of the reasons I'm glad that I no longer work there.
Let me spell it out for you. It is an example of a principle from the book "The Peter Principle", but it is not "The Peter Principle". Just because it came from the same book doesn't mean he was using the term appropriately. The Peter Principle is a well known business principle in its own right.
I won't join Slashcott. OTOH, If Beta goes live, I just won't be back until it's fixed. Sorry Dice.