Apple Announces iPad Air

Today Apple held a press conference to unveil its updated software and hardware products. The biggest news was the announcement of the 'iPad Air,' which has a 9.7" Retina display. It's 7.5 mm thick, which is 20% thinner than the older iPad. The weight has dropped from 1.4 lbs to 1.0 lbs, and it runs on a 64-bit A7 chip with an M7 motion coprocessor. Apple claims performance has doubled over the previous-gen iPad. The iPad Air will be available on November 1st. The iPad Mini is getting a new revision as well. The display has been upgraded to 7.9" at 2048x1536, which is the same resolution as the iPad Air. The new Mini has an A7 chip as well.

Apple also announced that the new version of Mac OS X (10.9 Mavericks) is available now and is free to all Mac OS X users. It includes better multi-monitor support, tabs in Finder, and a number of performance optimizations. The Macbook Pro is getting updates to the 13" and 15" models, which are now running on Intel Haswell processors. They both have PCIe SSDs, 802.11ac Wi-Fi, and Thunderbolt 2 support. Apple also talked about the redesigned Mac Pro line. As you may recall from WWDC, the new model takes up about about 1/8th of the volume as the old one. It's cooled by a single fan, uses 70% less power than the earlier model, and puts out 12 dB of noise when idling. It'll be available in December. On the software side, Apple has been updating a lot of their software to add 64-bit support and mesh with the new iOS 7 style of design. This includes iPhoto, iMovie, and Garageband, as well as the iLife and iWork software suites. iWork is also getting collaborative work features, and it's now free with new Macs and iOS devices.

Comments

Major shot at Microsoft, too.

[jcr]

iWork is now free, and include collaboration features that MS Office will have a hell of a time trying to match.

-jcr

Re:Major shot at Microsoft, too.

[Barlo_Mung_42]

MS is more worried about Google docs imo. Office already has collaborative features that work across platforms. For iWork to be interesting it would need to work on more than just Mac.

Re:Major shot at Microsoft, too.

[guruevi]

It has been working on any device for a while now. It's similar to O365, it's browser based but free.

Re:Major shot at Microsoft, too.

[mosb1000]

For iWork to be interesting it would need to work on more than just Mac.

Which is why it does.

Re:Major shot at Microsoft, too.

[Anonymous Coward]

I'm hoping they didn't "imporve" it like MS did with all the changes they made when they introduced the "ribbon". I still can't figure out how to contol graphics in these weird boxes they go into now in word. A complete mystery and one I'll never take the time to learn since there is Pages.

It's keynote that is the wonder however. So easy to work with.

THe one feature I've missed in pages is robust footnotes. You can do endnote footnotes but it's very clumsy especially when you export them to someone else, or convert to MS word format. I wish Zotero would get over their pride and support pages. And hopefully apple will publish their interface or XML file spec so that the zotero folks don't have any more thin excuses. Zotero is such a nice end note system, it makes me sad it doesn't work with the best document processor. I cant wait till I can dump Endnote.

Re:Major shot at Microsoft, too.

[jcr]

Microsoft's collaboration support looks pretty half-assed to me. http://www.pcworld.com/article/2033437/collaboration-in-microsoft-office-painful-but-not-impossible.html

-jcr

Re:Major shot at Microsoft, too.

[Anonymous Coward]

iWork is now free, and include collaboration features that MS Office will have a hell of a time trying to match.

-jcr

Collaboration features that only work on Apple Hardware, surely a serious business person rather than WEIRD APPLE FANBOY would be all over that.

Re:Major shot at Microsoft, too.

[adamstew]

The collaboration features will work on any device that has reasonable HTML 5 support as it is entirely browser based...including Mac, iDevices, Windows (IE, Chrome, Firefox), and a fair number of non-apple tablets...including the Surface. No license or account is needed for the collaborators.

Re:Major shot at Microsoft, too.

[Savage-Rabbit]

MS is more worried about Google docs imo. Office already has collaborative features that work across platforms. For iWork to be interesting it would need to work on more than just Mac.

Office only has a native client on Windows, iWork has one only on OS X and iOS, Google Docs has no official native clients that I'm aware of. Since Google Docs is a web only app the only fair thing to do is compare it to the web versions of iWork and Office 365. The web version of iWork is supported on Windows browsers. It's not supported on Linux but will run there on Firefox. Comparing the two I'd say iWork is in many ways on par with Google Docs except that iWork looks more slick. I can't compare the two to Office 365 since I haven't used it but it would seem to me that iWork could be made to achieve feature parity Google Docs and Office 365 with relatively little effort. It all depends on whether Apple can pull it's head out of it's ass (unlikely), ensure official support for iWork/iCloud on Linux/Android desktops and how important it is to them to piss off Google by matching Google Docs feature-for-feature.

Re:Major shot at Microsoft, too.

[Roadstar]

Office only has a native client on Windows,

I beg to differ.

Re:Major shot at Microsoft, too.

[Cinder6]

Microsoft also sells Office on the Mac.

The iWork apps are surprisingly capable on iOS, even on the phone. How do they compare to other mobile offerings?

Re:Major shot at Microsoft, too.

[RazzleFrog]

Exactly. Anything Apple or Google does is just going to be for home users and small businesses which is not where Microsoft makes their big money. You'd have to pry Excel from my cold dead hands.

Re:Major shot at Microsoft, too.

[BLToday]

iWork is surprisingly very functional on a Surface. Don't laugh. I've used iWork for iCloud on my Surface (no keyboard cover) and works much better than the built in MS Office that comes with the Surface since Office pretty much requires the keyboard cover.

Re:Major shot at Microsoft, too.

[ljw1004]

I tried to try it out but without much luck...

(1) Go to www.icloud.com
(2) Click "forgot my password"
(3) Enter my AppleID and click "Next"
(4) Select "answer security questions" and click Next
(5) Oops, it asks me to enter my AppleID again. I do so and click "Next"
(6) Again I select "answer security questions" and click Next
(7) It asks me my security question, and I answer, and click Next
(8) It asks me for a new password, which I type out twice, and click Next
(9) Oops! Session timed out! (after all of 40 seconds). Click Next
(10) Back to step 3, I enter my appleID and click "Next"
(11) Select "answer security questions" and click Next
(12) Session timed out! after all of 20 seconds. Click Next
(13) Enter my AppleID and click Next
(14) oops! session timed out, after 10 seconds this time.

Will try again later. "iforgot.apple.com"? - maybe YOU forgot too!

Re:Major shot at Microsoft, too.

[Anonymous Coward]

oh? so where are the deb files for ubuntu?

Re:Major shot at Microsoft, too.

[Anonymous Coward]

Office only has a native client on Windows, iWork has one only on OS X and iOS, Google Docs has no official native clients that I'm aware of.

"Client"? Seriously? I mean, you can use that word, but it's a bit of awkward.

Re:Major shot at Microsoft, too.

[ljw1004]

Okay, managed to get my AppleID password changed. I sign in to www.icloud.com and it says:

Set up ICloud on a device to use iCloud.com
Your Apple ID must be used to set up iCloud on an iOS or OS X device before you can use iCloud.com.

So I don't understand which collaboration features you're referring to. Where they "iCloud.com"? Or something else?

Re:Major shot at Microsoft, too.

[ljw1004]

For what it's worth, I tried exactly the same process using Chrome instead of Firefox and it worked fine this time.

Re:Major shot at Microsoft, too.

[Anonymous Coward]

Every small business I work with are choosing to go for O365. Office and updates, mail and skydrive, all in one is a dealbraker. Also the fact you can use it on up to 5 machines per paying user.

Re:Major shot at Microsoft, too.

[NatasRevol]

http://www.icloud.com/

Re:Major shot at Microsoft, too.

[AmiMoJo]

Speaking of which I deleted my Apple account today. Well, I got the ball rolling. After half an hour on the phone they said it would take their engineers up to three weeks to actually do it. Needless to say I'm not giving Apple any more data, even without creating an account, since now I know how hard to is to remove.

Actually, they don't even remove it completely. The guy said I can't sign up using the same email address again, so clearly they keep at least that on file forever.

Re:Major shot at Microsoft, too.

[MaWeiTao]

I would have said that the fact that iWork is being bundled for free shows that Apple is concerned. I suspect that Apple is trying to make themselves more relevant in spaces Microsoft and Google both dominate because they're falling behind. I used iWork for several years. It's a very capable bit of software and I didn't miss Office much at all. However, it was no better than Office and had plenty of it's own annoying quirks. I suppose that for many the fact that it's not Microsoft is appealing. And there are a lot of ignorant consumers out there who just assume everything Apple is gold. Whether that perception is sustainable indefinitely remains to be seen but they've definitely done a pretty good of keeping it up job thus far.

The fact that we're seeing more open debate about Apple's products, however, implies that the veneer is wearing a bit thin. Apple is unable to offer anything to distinguish themselves from the competition beyond the luxury appeal. The fact that Apple hired Angela Ahrendts from Burberry is a pretty good sign of where they're heading. I don't doubt that they're well aware of the consumer dynamic where rational purchasing decisions go out the window once you're perceived as a luxury brand. That may alienate a huge swath of the population, but they'll still be the aspirational brand. The 1% of gadgets.

Re:Major shot at Microsoft, too.

[Anonymous Coward]

I move documents between iWork and other office suites all the time with no issues.
 
Sorry, but you people who act like you need a monoculture when it comes to an office suite are living in the 20th century. You rank right up there with the one computer/one OS crowd.

Re:Major shot at Microsoft, too.

[AmiMoJo]

Google Docs has a native client for Android.

Re:Major shot at Microsoft, too.

[Anonymous Coward]

Sounds a lot like future iWork clients. Same solutions, but $0.

Re:Major shot at Microsoft, too.

[NatasRevol]

Apparently, Firefox isn't the greatest, or most supported, browser anymore.

http://support.apple.com/kb/HT5436

Re:Major shot at Microsoft, too.

[ColdWetDog]

Actually, they don't even remove it completely. The guy said I can't sign up using the same email address again, so clearly they keep at least that on file forever.

If you are surprised about that, you should turn in your Geek card and get a higher Slashdot UID.

Nothing on the Internet is deleted.

Unless, of course, you actually needed it.

Re:Major shot at Microsoft, too.

[AmiMoJo]

Actually I'm thinking of making a complaint under UK data protection laws. They are only allowed to keep personal information as long as they have a legitimate reason to do so, and since I no long have any relationship with them I can't see a reason why they should not delete my email address.

At most they should store a hash of it if their systems are so shitty that signing up with a previously deleted email address will break them, but that's the absolute limit.

Re:Major shot at Microsoft, too.

[TomGreenhaw]

If you consider Sharepoint, Microsoft has had a fairly comprehensive collaboration system that works well with MS Office for years. Its pricey but has achieved a fair share of enterprise deployments.

Re:Major shot at Microsoft, too.

[Anonymous Coward]

Google Docs has a native client for Android.

Richard Simmons used to have a TRS-80.

Re:Major shot at Microsoft, too.

[the_B0fh]

Right here:

http://packages.ubuntu.com/lucid/firefox

You *DID* catch that it is a browser based app, right?

Re:Major shot at Microsoft, too.

[exomondo]

iWork is now free, and include collaboration features that MS Office will have a hell of a time trying to match.

-jcr

It isn't free, it's included in the price of new hardware. If it were free I could get it for no cost on my current macbook.

Re:Major shot at Microsoft, too.

[ljw1004]

I went here and tried to log in with my AppleID. It said:

Set up iCloud on a device to use iCloud.com.
Your Apple ID must be used to set up iCloud on an iOS or OS X device before you can use iCloud.com.

So for Linux and windows users, no, iWork doesn't work.

Re:Major shot at Microsoft, too.

[Anonymous Coward]

Office only has a native client on Windows, iWork has one only on OS X and iOS, Google Docs has no official native clients that I'm aware of.

"Client"? Seriously? I mean, you can use that word, but it's a bit of awkward.

Have you used iWork? It is literally in the process of being relegated to a secondary role as a native client for iCloud. The same goes for MS Office vis a vi the Office 365 cloud. The old fashioned native-only office suites are becoming an extinct species.

Re:Major shot at Microsoft, too.

[Anonymous Coward]

Office only has a native client on Windows,

I beg to differ.

Yeah, that was an embarrassing omission. Especially since I actually have a MS Office 2011 for Mac license but I never bothered to upgrade to 365 so forgot about it even though it is, of course, cloud integrated.

Re:Major shot at Microsoft, too.

[spire3661]

Its because they wont play ball with the media cartels.

Re:Major shot at Microsoft, too.

[gnasher719]

I would have said that the fact that iWork is being bundled for free shows that Apple is concerned.

I love these pathetic attempts at spinning something into a negative. According to you, Google must be shitting themselves, since they have been giving away lots of software for free for many years.

Re:Major shot at Microsoft, too.

[ljw1004]

I can read. I don't own an iOS or OS X device. That's what I meant by "Linux or windows user" - one who uses these operating systems rather than apple ones.

Re:Major shot at Microsoft, too.

[Anonymous Coward]

He implied that he doesn't have an iOS or OSX device, therefore it wouldn't work for him. Being able to read is good but thinking helps too.

Re:Major shot at Microsoft, too.

[Anonymous Coward]

It has been working on any device for a while now. It's similar to O365, it's browser based but free.

Yes, because OO has been displacing MSOffice from the business market. Don't get me wrong, I use it too when I can, but not for stuff I need to make sure looks right to a client without testing on an actual MS Office setup. Fabulous for free, but who, even here would pay $100 for it vs MSOffice? Outside of a few fellow SQL geeks anyway.

The real star is the Mac Pro. That's a great size for a powerful and quiet (at idle) machine. I wonder what Apple will do to gimp it like ever other machine they make. Integrated graphics? No - FireGL... Maybe they'll firmware lock the memory or drive bays instead to Apple only parts. If not, it'll probably be a $4k base price. Maybe $3495 if we're lucky. I'll also want to here the DB readings when it's rendering and spinning a 3D CAD model around on Windows...

Re:Major shot at Microsoft, too.

[Anonymous Coward]

Hmmm, my bad. I though they said 12 cores - dual cpu. So that's how they shot themselves. A premier workstation with a quarter of the CPU's the competitors have, half if you stick to Intel.

Re:Major shot at Microsoft, too.

[Karlt1]

The fact that we're seeing more open debate about Apple's products, however, implies that the veneer is wearing a bit thin.

And you base that conclusion on debate you're seeing on Slashdot for an Apple product?

Re:Major shot at Microsoft, too.

[mosb1000]

I'm in the middle of something, so I can't try this, but did you try downloading the control panel at apple. Of course, you have to have an iCloud membership so I'm not sure if that'd work for you.

Re:Major shot at Microsoft, too.

[slash.jit]

I went to AppStore it still says $19, how is it free ?

Re:Major shot at Microsoft, too.

[smash]

This is by design. You are not an apple customer.

Re:Major shot at Microsoft, too.

[Anonymous Coward]

Specifically what "media cartels" (assuming you know what a cartel is) are they not playing ball with? Or are you just exaggerating for dramatic effect?

Re:Major shot at Microsoft, too.

[Plumpaquatsch]

I can read. I don't own an iOS or OS X device. That's what I meant by "Linux or windows user" - one who uses these operating systems rather than apple ones.

And yet it works on Windows and Linux. If you know somebody who can help you - but you don't now anybody who can help you. That isn't Apple's fault.

Re:Major shot at Microsoft, too.

[Anonymous Coward]

Jesus you have some butthurt going on. Do you rant like this in real life too? Put down the keyboard and just walk away for a bit. Go outside.

Re:Major shot at Microsoft, too.

[Barlo_Mung_42]

Office works great on my Lumia.

Re:Major shot at Microsoft, too.

[rthille]

at $3K, it's got 4 cores, but you an get 12 for an unannounced price.
Still, the box is probably 1000x more capable than the NeXT Cube I bought ages ago for $6500...

Re:Major shot at Microsoft, too.

[afidel]

Wait, what? Office for Mac has existing for forever and Office 365 even comes with a desktop license you can use on either PC or Mac.

Re:Major shot at Microsoft, too.

[hazydave]

When you're dependent on Apple for your hardware, the new Mac Pro is certainly better than the old Mac Pro. Unless you need a different GPU, of course.

Compared to the PC market, it's crazy overpriced. I put together a system with more i7 cores, more RAM (64GB), a larger SSD (960GB), a built-in RAID10 (6GB effective), and ok, less GPU power (just one high-end ATi card), but with room for three more if I ever need that... for less than half of this price.

I guess Intel's running late on the 12-core version of that CPU, though... Apple had claimed when they introduced the new "Macintrash" design that they'd be shipping in the fall, and then, pretty much just talked about the high-end model.

Re:Major shot at Microsoft, too.

[cbhacking]

Not to mention Windows Phone... it's a minor platform, but if you're going to include iOS you may as well include WP as well.

Re:Major shot at Microsoft, too.

[Anonymous Coward]

Precisely.

And as long as iWork is Apple-only, no one outside of Macland will ever care about it.

Re:Major shot at Microsoft, too.

[Joining Yet Again]

Because when you're a real business paying real employees, the cost of an Office licence is so insurmountably high that you're going to choose a third-best option.

Every minute spent on fanboy navel-gazing is a minute not spent working optimally using the most fully featured, familiar productivity suite. And that means less money. And that's not worth it.

Re:Major shot at Microsoft, too.

[Anonymous Coward]

So much for collaboration then

Re:Major shot at Microsoft, too.

[shutdown -p now]

Which gets us back to the original point, which is that, with this attitude, it's not going to be a viable competitor to Office outside of the Apple ecosystem.

Re:Major shot at Microsoft, too.

[shutdown -p now]

MS Office does too, now (although it requires a subscription). But, feature-wise, they're not really comparable to full-fledged desktop apps.

Re:Major shot at Microsoft, too.

[Anonymous Coward]

Shouldn't be too hard to calculate at least - they specify flops in the performance specs. Should be able to get some comparison. BTW - I got a NeXTstation in 1991 :) Didn't return to the Mac fold until OSX - long after their 7.5 fiasco. The Pro really does remind me of a 21st century NeXT.

I gotta admit

[Andrio]

That's pretty impressive engineering. Think it allows Android to be installed on it? :)

Re: I gotta admit

[supertrooper]

Speak for yourself. Now that it's twice as fast, I can finish the movie in half the time.

Re:I gotta admit

[kthreadd]

That's pretty impressive engineering. Think it allows Android to be installed on it? :)

The hardware could most likely run it, but since Apple locks the boot loader and prevents the user from changing the operating system this will not be possible. It is highly unfortunate that we don't have legislation that prevents this abusive behavior.

Re: I gotta admit

[Anonymous Coward]

I need to know how many transistors it has before I'll buy one.

Re:I gotta admit

[coinreturn]

That's pretty impressive engineering. Think it allows Android to be installed on it? :)

The hardware could most likely run it, but since Apple locks the boot loader and prevents the user from changing the operating system this will not be possible. It is highly unfortunate that we don't have legislation that prevents this abusive behavior.

Slashdotter wants more governent regulation. Film at 11.

Re:I gotta admit

[Samantha Wright]

Hint for your anarcho-capitalist kneejerk playbook: "be open" isn't the kind of regulation that impedes a free market.

Re:I gotta admit

[Hamsterdan]

Why is it abusive? It's their hardware, their rules. It's not like you can install iOS or Windows on a Nexus either.

Re:I gotta admit

[coinreturn]

Hint for your anarcho-capitalist kneejerk playbook: "be open" isn't the kind of regulation that impedes a free market.

Hint for your kneejerk reaction - I am a flaming liberal. My point was that I was surprised that the anarcho-capitalists wanted more government regulation.

Re:I gotta admit

[SighKoPath]

You could, if there were versions of iOS or Windows compatible with its hardware. I mean, the Nexus doesn't prevent you from installing other OSs - take a look at Ubuntu Touch.

Re:I gotta admit

[Anonymous Coward]

While it is in the store or after someone buys it?

After its sold, isn't the hardware now theirs?

Re:I gotta admit

[Patch86]

If it helps, you're all anarcho-capitalists to me.

Lots of love,
a Socialist.

Re:I gotta admit

[CanHasDIY]

Why is it abusive? It's their hardware, their rules.

You just answered your own question: because once I pay for it, it's not their hardware anymore. It's mine, and I'll do whatever I damn well please with it.

And yes, I apply that logic to every single one of the greedy bastards who prevent consumers from having full control over their own property, not just Apple.

Re:I gotta admit

[tlhIngan]

That's pretty impressive engineering. Think it allows Android to be installed on it? :)

Except the bootloader probably isn't designed to boot 32-bit OSes, ARMv8 isn't terribly impressive in AArch32 mode, and Android isn't 64-bit native yet.

Most of the speed ups the A7 gets are from 64-bit code as it cleans up a lot of the architecture. 32-bit code works, but the speedup is minimal.

And yes, the bootloader has to be 64-bit and then switch the CPU to 32-bit mode in order to boot a 32-bit OS. Running a 32-bit OS means you can't run 64-bit code at all. When you go down the privilege levels (secure monitor, hypervisor (VM), kernel, user) you can go from 64 to 32 bit mode, but to go the other way requires going up the stack.

Re:I gotta admit

[Anonymous Coward]

Forcing "be open" is a draconian concept. If you produce software/hardware you should have rights to who/when/how it gets distributed and modified.
 
Don't like it? Go make your own open crap. No one is stopping you.

Re:I gotta admit

[unixisc]

Don't be shy, Mr Stallman!

Re:I gotta admit

[RightSaidFred99]

Lol, you mean making a device smaller by cutting down on battery size is impressive engineering? Lolzers, you are easily impressed.

Re:I gotta admit

[Kahlandad]

You paid for it knowing the OS limitations imposed on it by the manufacturer. They never tried to fool you into thinking it was an open platform. I don't see how this could be, in any way, considered to be "abusive" behavior.

Re:I gotta admit

[exomondo]

Why is it abusive? It's their hardware, their rules.

You just answered your own question: because once I pay for it, it's not their hardware anymore. It's mine, and I'll do whatever I damn well please with it.

It's their hardware which they make, then they sell it to you and it's your hardware and - as you say - you can do whatever you please with it. So what's the problem?

Re: I gotta admit

[RyuuzakiTetsuya]

Once it's in your own hands, what's stopping you?

Certainly Apple isn't going to send goons to your home if you install Android on it. :)

Not keeping the boot loader open isn't them keeping you from doing it, mind you. They're just trying to keep the damned thing working for most users.

Re:I gotta admit

[dk20]

Can you outline on the box where it lists these limitations?

Re:I gotta admit

[Solandri]

Most of the speed ups the A7 gets are from 64-bit code as it cleans up a lot of the architecture. 32-bit code works, but the speedup is minimal.

I'm extremely skeptical that there's much of any significant speedup for 64-bit code in general use (i.e. outside of specialized number crunching applications). If you look at Anandtech's iPhone 5S review where they ran a bunch of math-heavy benchmarks, the median speedup is only about 9%. The benchmarks recording the biggest improvements (AES, SHA1, DGEMM) showed huge speedups due to new hardware cryptographic instructions and vectorization, not from switching to 64-bit code.

My hunch is this is going to play out pretty much like 64-bit Windows. Yes there was a speedup, but only about 5%-15% on average, not enough of a performance boost for people to notice in everyday use. The real reason everyone switched to 64-bit was for the flat memory space addresses (>4 GB). It's better for code to be 64-bit, but the performance increase merits a mere footnote, while the flat memory space is a headliner.

Re: I gotta admit

[exomondo]

Precisely, it is your hardware, it might not be particularly open or have mechanisms for doing what you want to do but you don't get to dictate what they sell, you get to choose what you buy so if you bought that hardware with the intention of installing Android on it and then find out it isn't particularly easy then frankly you bought the wrong product.

Re:I gotta admit

[unixisc]

Not on the box, but in the warranty sections of the user manuals. Which one would do well to read, particularly if one is in the habit of trying out these experiments

Re:I gotta admit

[CanHasDIY]

Not on the box, but in the warranty sections of the user manuals. Which one would do well to read, particularly if one is in the habit of trying out these experiments

So, in contradiction to the previous poster's statements, they do try and fool consumers by hiding the "rules" deep in documents most people don't bother with, instead of being up-front about how "your" property is treated by the company that made it.

Re:I gotta admit

[exomondo]

So what exactly would you suggest they put on the box to explain all of this information? This seems like the sort of stuff you would ask the salesperson or do some research on. The issue clearly has nothing to do with ownership of the hardware and is just about the software, which you could theoretically replace.

Re:I gotta admit

[CanHasDIY]

So what exactly would you suggest they put on the box to explain all of this information?

How about instead of using the word "buy" they instead use the more accurate "rent" or "lease?" Perhaps state this little factoid clearly, somewhere that the consumer will definitely see it, instead of burying the info somewhere inside a 250 page EULA?

Personally, I don't buy the whole "morality is hard" concept; being honest and up-front about things pretty damn easy in my experience.

Re:I gotta admit

[dk20]

So if i understand this correctly i learn about these limitations AFTER i buy the product and open it making it difficult to return?

Re:I gotta admit

[dk20]

You nailed it. I actually have a few apple products (not many). The most frustrating thing? After jailbreaking my appletv's to get XBMC on them they force upgrade and replace it. Now i have to wait for a new jailbreak to get it back on. I dont recall agreeing to have my device force updated, no did i agree to have something i did (install xbmc) removed. Its more like a rental arrangement, they seem to want to control every aspect even after they sold it. In which case perhaps i should only pay $5 a month for it instead of $129 to buy it?

Re:I gotta admit

[dk20]

Because sales people are always forthcoming even if its going to cost them a sale by describing the lock-ins?
"The purchase of the device can best be viewed as a rental agreement. Apple retains all ownership of the software and may restrict what you can do with the device after you purchase it".
Wrote that in a few seconds, i'm sure a "marketing/legal" department can do a better job.

Re:I gotta admit

[exomondo]

How about instead of using the word "buy" they instead use the more accurate "rent" or "lease?"

That's less accurate, you do buy and own the hardware, you don't rent or lease it. You don't own the software, you license it.

Re:I gotta admit

[exomondo]

"The purchase of the device can best be viewed as a rental agreement. Apple retains all ownership of the software and may restrict what you can do with the device after you purchase it".

But that's wrong, you never have to update the software if you don't want to, you can always use it just the same as the day you bought it.

Re:I gotta admit

[dk20]

Perhaps you can explain why my appleTV (2) has been updated three times since I've owned it even though i have never selected update? Ever try to "undo" an update? They are encrypted and cant be "rolled back". Why is that?

Re:I gotta admit

[exomondo]

Perhaps you can explain why my appleTV (2) has been updated three times since I've owned it even though i have never selected update?

Because AppleTV has an optional 'auto update' feature which you obviously have turned on.

Re:I gotta admit

[MachineShedFred]

And if you buy a car and radically modify the engine and drivetrain, your warranty goes away.

So it is with this.

Re:I gotta admit

[CanHasDIY]

You don't own the software, you license it.

Which is not made clear to the consumer until after they've purchased the item and opened the packaging, thus devaluing the product.

Face it, the way hardware w/ software purchases are treated is blatantly scammy. Why would you defend a practice that hurts you?

That's something I don't think I'll ever understand about humans - our willingness to act against our own best interests.

Re:I gotta admit

[CanHasDIY]

And if you buy a car and radically modify the engine and drivetrain, your warranty goes away.

Only on the parts you modify, and possibly related systems. For example, if you put a cold-air intake on your engine, the warranty still covers your driveshaft, wheels, cooling system, electronics, etc., but maybe not your exhaust.

So, nothing like it is with consumer electronics.

Re:I gotta admit

[Anonymous Coward]

And if you're comparing changing an intake to completely replacing the boot loader and OS, then you're the one being disingenuous.

Re:I gotta admit

[exomondo]

Which is not made clear to the consumer until after they've purchased the item and opened the packaging, thus devaluing the product.

Then that is the thing that should be made clear, if you knew that then why did you suggest it should be portrayed as if you are renting or leasing the product?

Face it, the way hardware w/ software purchases are treated is blatantly scammy. Why would you defend a practice that hurts you?

I'm not defending it, I'm trying to understand where you're coming from, first you were talking about hardware ownership, I'm not even sure who you think is disagreeing with you since it is quite clear that you do indeed own the hardware. Then you decided you wanted it to be that the product is leased or rented instead of bought which wouldn't be accurate at all. The fact is it is the software component of the device that is licensed so perhaps they need to put on the box "The software contained on the device is licensed - not sold - to you." or something like that.

Re:I gotta admit

[dk20]

Perhaps you can show me where the "optional" part is so i can turn it off?

I think you are thinking of something like this:
http://forums.plexapp.com/index.php/topic/29970-disable-automatic-updates/

where you edit the hosts file to prevent it?

Are you sure this "optional" when the only way to disable it is via a hosts file?

Re:I gotta admit

[exomondo]

Perhaps you can show me where the "optional" part is so i can turn it off?

I don't have an AppleTV, but surely you're familiar with search engines that allow you to find stuff.

I think you are thinking of something like this: http://forums.plexapp.com/index.php/topic/29970-disable-automatic-updates/

No, no I'm not. It clearly states that "The problem is that "trigger happy" kids are updating and leaving me with a new jailbreaking", so he ultimately wanting to put a stop to manual updating, which you would know if you bothered to actually read the first post of the link you posted.

Re:I gotta admit

[dk20]

Let me see if i understand this correctly.
You dont have an appletv, but you are sure its because i have the auto update on (you stated its obvious).

Then i tell you how i managed to disable the auto update and you refer me to google?

You are correct, his problem was his kids. The point of the link was it contains instructions needed to disable it.

This is not the case with me and had you used google yourself you would see auto-updating breaking jailbreaks is a common problem.

By the way, did you read the CNET link you included?
"I'm not sure what caused the lone unit to set itself to on, but it's a good reminder to always check these settings."

Re:I gotta admit

[exomondo]

You dont have an appletv, but you are sure its because i have the auto update on (you stated its obvious).

It has a feature called "auto update", which obviously if you have that on then it will automatically update. In any case if the auto update switch is broken on AppleTV there's clearly an issue there, but I don't have an AppleTV and was referring to iPhones & iPads, which you do not have to update.

Then i tell you how i managed to disable the auto update and you refer me to google?

Read your post where you clearly asked how to disable the auto update feature:
"Perhaps you can show me where the "optional" part is so i can turn it off?"

You are correct, his problem was his kids. The point of the link was it contains instructions needed to disable it.

No, it contained instructions needed to prevent updating it even if you deliberately and explicitly attempted to update it.

This is not the case with me and had you used google yourself you would see auto-updating breaking jailbreaks is a common problem.

Of course auto-updating breaks jailbreaks, it updates the OS.

By the way, did you read the CNET link you included?
"I'm not sure what caused the lone unit to set itself to on, but it's a good reminder to always check these settings."

Yes I did, I don't know what the default is but if it's off leave it off and if it's on turn it off.

Re:I gotta admit

[CanHasDIY]

The fact is it is the software component of the device that is licensed so perhaps they need to put on the box "The software contained on the device is licensed - not sold - to you." or something like that.

Yea, that's pretty much what I'm getting at.

I tend to be a rather mercurial personality, so my train of thought has a habit of constantly jumping rails; less of a Point A to Point B trip, but more like the ridiculously circuitous route that a drunken fly would take. Sorry if it's sometime hard to follow.

Re:I gotta admit

[exomondo]

Well i think that would be perfectly reasonable.

iPads seem to overcome moore's law

[etash]

since every new version is twice as faster as the previous one, given the fact that we see new versions in less than 18 months.

unless apple's engineers are optimizing this infamous loop:

for(i=0;i1000000000;i++);

Re:iPads seem to overcome moore's law

[guruevi]

Moore's law is a lower limit. Chips have been increasing faster than Moore's law since the inception of the law.

Re:iPads seem to overcome moore's law

[Anonymous Coward]

if you look at chip manufacturing techniques and transistor sizes we're actually approaching the lower limit of transistor size meaning moore's law is finite. That's why people are examining quantum computers.

Re:iPads seem to overcome moore's law

[jones_supa]

And if we look at single-core performance only, we have fallen off the wagon already.

Re:iPads seem to overcome moore's law

[Anonymous Coward]

I can't wait to see what becomes of tablets and the like when graphene computing finally becomes a reality.

Holy Matrix in a piece of paper batman.

Although personally I would love to see a move to upgradable embedded products. Sort of the same way most netbooks / laptops could be upgraded to a limited extent, such as more RAM, new hard drive, slot for something else (usually 2 where one has the wifi card already in it), outputs for monitors and audio.

Then I can finally do nothing with it since it will still likely be gimped because shitty battery tech is still not caught up with computings progression.

Re:iPads seem to overcome moore's law

[ShanghaiBill]

since every new version is twice as faster as the previous one, given the fact that we see new versions in less than 18 months.

Moore's Law is an observation about transistor density, not CPU speed.

Re:iPads seem to overcome moore's law

[dinadan]

Moore's law is about transistor count, not performance.

Re:iPads seem to overcome moore's law

[Anonymous Coward]

And further to that, it's an observation about economic feasibility, not technical.

Re:iPads seem to overcome moore's law

[fyngyrz]

Good engineers see to it that more transistors == more performance, so...

Moore's law is, in the final analysis, about performance.

Mini seems to go without M7 ...

[perpenso]

The iPad mini seems to be going without the M7 motion coprocessor, unlike the full sized iPad Air. Regrettable, but still a nice refresh.

Re:Mini seems to go without M7 ...

[Anonymous Coward]

Not true... http://www.apple.com/ipad-mini/specs/ specifically lists the chip as: "A7 chip with 64-bit architecture and M7 motion coprocessor"

Why is iPad so much better than iPhone?

[WiiVault]

Not to bash the iPhone, but how is it that Apple seems to be so much ahead of the pack when it comes to the iPad but the iPhone seems to be just another high-end smartphone? I mean the new full-size iPad seems so much better especially in size and weight than anything else out there, while the 5s is just a nice spec bump.

Re:Why is iPad so much better than iPhone?

[tgd]

Not to bash the iPhone, but how is it that Apple seems to be so much ahead of the pack when it comes to the iPad but the iPhone seems to be just another high-end smartphone? I mean the new full-size iPad seems so much better especially in size and weight than anything else out there, while the 5s is just a nice spec bump.

Ahead of the pack in technology or sales?

None of their devices are close to the head of the pack from a technology standpoint. They can hype things up well, and they sell well, but across the boards they're middle-of-the-road hardware with typically one or two "oh, but we've got this!" upgrades that can be heavily marketed for the brief interlude before Samsung or another company makes a call on its actual value and adds it.

And, frankly, its just fine that Apple works that way.

Re:Why is iPad so much better than iPhone?

[Anonymous Coward]

So far ahead of the pack? iOS still can't do the stuff that Windows Pro can, including backward compatibility, keyboard, etc.

The reason the iPhone is "just another high end phone" is because they've been behind the curve for years now. Give the market more time, and just like everything else, Apple will fall behind by sheer force of numbers. 10's and 100's of companies can make more progress than a single company - any day, all day.

Apple makes a well polished item then gets stuck in it's own success while it falls behind. Mac vs PC all over again.

I'll eat my words if Apple remains as much of a cash cow as it is for munch longer.

Re:Why is iPad so much better than iPhone?

[i_ate_god]

In what way is the iPad "middle-of-the-road" hardware?

What tablets on the market now exist that greatly exceed the ipad in the highend spectrum?

Re:Why is iPad so much better than iPhone?

[BaronAaron]

To be fair the Sony Xperia Tablet Z is only 6.9mm thick and only 1.1 pounds... The rest of the specs are also about the same, and that's been out for a month or two now.

Re:Why is iPad so much better than iPhone?

[Anonymous Coward]

I'll eat my words if Apple remains as much of a cash cow as it is for munch longer.

Getting started early?

Re:Why is iPad so much better than iPhone?

[Anonymous Coward]

None of their devices are close to the head of the pack from a technology standpoint

Wut. What do you Apple haters smoke. First with the HiDPI, CPU/GPU leaps ahead of anything else. Battery tech that is only now being matched.

Re:Why is iPad so much better than iPhone?

[SoupIsGood Food]

Well, it =is= a spec bump. It's introducing some interesting stuff which is laying the groundwork for the future - most notably a 64bit processor - some stuff that's an interesting and well integrated minor selling point that will be aped by everyone else in the industry - the fingerprint reader and gold tone - and general refinement that makes it nicer to use than previous rev - the camera software. It's to keep the faithful in the fold. iPhone 6 should be the cart-upender you crave.

In general, tho, the dev tools for Android are fairly terrible and require more a lot more work to retool an app for a full size tablet, in a software market that subsists largely on ad-supported freeware. It's not as easy or profitable to support an Android tablet version of your software as it is in the Apple ecosystem, where users are more willing to pay money for software. This results in (comparative) lackluster demand for Android tablets, which results in lackluster tablets.

To be brutally blunt, despite, or rather because of, its enormous success, I think Android is on borrowed time. Touch-optimized ChromeOS is where the Google ecosystem is going to wind up. It will allow them to supplant Microsoft on the desktop, build demand in the tablet market, and cut Firefox OS off at the knees, all with the same code base and library of apps and complete visibility into user behavior (Google's in the business of selling ads and marketing data, remember).

Re:Why is iPad so much better than iPhone?

[Anonymous Coward]

The iPhone has been around for over 6 years, so other companies have had plenty of time to catch up. The iPad has only been in the wild for 3 years.

Also, Apple have a habit of jumping onto new mass-produced technology early and buying every unit that the factory can make. A famous example would be the just-released 1.8" Toshiba hard drive that got put into the first iPod 12 years ago - the first pocket-sized MP3 player that could hold thousands of songs.

It's difficult to copy a technology quickly when Apple has an exclusive contract with the only factory in the world that makes it.

Re:Why is iPad so much better than iPhone?

[symbolset]

SXTZ display: 1920 x 1200 pixels. iPad Air display: 2048-by-1536.

Re:Why is iPad so much better than iPhone?

[Connie_Lingus]

did you really say that Android is on borrowed time??

that's just utterly ridiculous...even if Google stopped work on it today, the OS community and the huge worldwide installed userbase would keep it going forever, just like Linus did with unix.

Android is going to be with us forever.

Re:Why is iPad so much better than iPhone?

[Anonymous Coward]

"It's difficult to copy a technology"
Most of the HD mp3 players on the market made the ipod 12 years ago look weak. The only thing Apple was good at was marketing. I had a creative Labs mp3 player when friends had an ipod. I could do more and store more. Maybe one day people will wake up and see Apple really is just really good at marketing and not great at products, good products yes but not great.

Re:Why is iPad so much better than iPhone?

[BaronAaron]

The SXTZ display: 10.1". iPad Air display: 9.7"

If you won't care about the extra 128x336 pixels, I won't care about the extra 0.4 inches... Or the likely $100 price difference...

Re:Why is iPad so much better than iPhone?

[LordLimecat]

Moving goalposts for the win!

Post a tablet priced cheaper, better specs, but 0.1 lbs heavier? The claim will be that the iPad is better because its more portable.
Post a tablet priced around the same, better weight / thickness, but not as good screen? iPad is better!

I will admit that when it comes to being exactly like an iPad, Apple does it best.

Re:Why is iPad so much better than iPhone?

[jon3k]

The S model is always just a spec bump. Although slow motion video and TouchID are incredible.

Re:Why is iPad so much better than iPhone?

[getNewNickName]

If you're comparing size and weight you need to take into account the important pieces that contribute to those stats: the display and the battery. The iPad Air has a 2048x1536 display vs 1920x1200 on the Xperia. According to the product page, the iPad Air has approx 10 hour battery life, while the Xperia doesn't specify battery life on its product page (some reviews are quoting 8 hours). I don't see Xperia as having "about the same" specs at all.

Re:Why is iPad so much better than iPhone?

[Anonymous Coward]

Android is going to be with us forever.

Like Herpes.

Re:Why is iPad so much better than iPhone?

[ArcadeMan]

Backward compatibility with what, exactly? Do you expect iOS to run Windows software?

Keyboards? You can use a bluetooth keyboard with any current iOS device and a lot of previous generations too.

Behind the curve? Only a small percentage of Android phones and tablets are using cutting-edge technology for both hardware and software. It doesn't matter if there's 10 times more Android hardware if 90% of it is brand new yet low-end stuff that cannot even run the latest software.

Re:Why is iPad so much better than iPhone?

[BaronAaron]

The OP said the iPad seem so much better then anything out there.

My point is both tablets are in the same class. Not arguing the new iPad edges out the competition. It should, it's the newest high end tablet, but it's not revolutionary or anything. It will quickly lose the spec crown when the next round of high end Android tablets come out.

Re:Why is iPad so much better than iPhone?

[ArcadeMan]

The new iPad mini retina will have the same 2048x1536 pixels in a 7.9" display.

Re:Why is iPad so much better than iPhone?

[larry bagina]

that's just utterly ridiculous. Outside of slashdot, people don't root their phones and install a custom build of android. They don't (ie, can't) update it either. And in 1-2 years, they'll toss it and get another one. And one day, their next phone will run ChromeOS instead of Android. They'll play angry birds and dick around with wallpaper and ringtones and never give a shit that it is or isn't android.

Re:Why is iPad so much better than iPhone?

[ArcadeMan]

The S model is just a spec bump?

Re:Why is iPad so much better than iPhone?

[locopuyo]

1920x1200 is actually a lot better than 2048x1536 for video playback because 1080p video won't have to be scaled and will look much, much clearer.
They should just stick with that 1920x1200 or 1920x1080 until they can make the jump to 4K resolution and get nice 4:1 pixel mapping so 1080p video doesn't look like crap.

Re:Why is iPad so much better than iPhone?

[oreiasecaman]

No doubt it's going to be around, but removing Google from the equation would seriously cripple it. Read this for more details

Re:Why is iPad so much better than iPhone?

[Anonymous Coward]

And I suppose each and every other non-smartphone, non-tablet device that runs Android will just -poof- disappear in a puff of smoke, eh?

Re:Why is iPad so much better than iPhone?

[boristhespider]

And now every MP3 player out there can hold 120 gigabytes of music! Oh, no, they can't :( Not trolling, I'd just like an alternative to my aging iPod Classic when it gives up the ghost, but I won't have one - if Apple still sell them, it'll have to be another Classic. Which is a shame, since while I love the Classic I'm no fan at all of iTunes, particularly managing an iPod through it, which always seems too much hassle when all I want to do is drag and drop my music onto the player...

Re:Why is iPad so much better than iPhone?

[CanHasDIY]

Not to bash the iPhone, but how is it that Apple seems to be so much ahead of the pack when it comes to the iPad but the iPhone seems to be just another high-end smartphone?

Oh, so you mean they finally got around to inventing that NFC chip that Google tablets have had for a while now?

Zing.

Re:Why is iPad so much better than iPhone?

[squiggleslash]

Even worse he thinks ChromeOS (an OS where all the apps are HTML5) is going to replace it.

Re:Why is iPad so much better than iPhone?

[CanHasDIY]

that's just utterly ridiculous. Outside of slashdot, people don't root their phones and install a custom build of android.

No, but they do ask Slashdotters to do it for them.

At least, that's my experience.

"Hey, man, how do you keep that old Droid X running so smooth? Cyanogenmod, what's that? Can you put it on my phone for me?"

...in 1-2 years, they'll toss it and get another one... They'll play angry birds and dick around with wallpaper and ringtones and never give a shit...

That I cannot disagree with.

Re:Why is iPad so much better than iPhone?

[SoupIsGood Food]

Android as a mass-market, Google-supported and actively sold and marketed product, accepted by mainstream industry is on borrowed time.

Don't think Linux. Think Open Solaris. How much of a dent is Open Solaris putting in the server room these days?

How about MeeGo? Hell, even WebOS is still being developed by a die-hard core after it was released to the world as open source abandonware. How many MeeGo or WebOS handsets you seen at the Verizon store? Android lives as long as Google and Samsung pour money and manpower into it. After that's gone, it's a hobby OS for die-hards and niche hardware companies.

And when ChromeOS matures, Android =will= be abandoned. Get used to the idea. It's a transitional system to get to the ChromeOS/Glass ecosystem Google has been saying VERY LOUDLY is their corporate direction.

Why is this notion a surprise?

(No, they don't expect everyone to wear the stupid headset. Does Google seem stupid to you? What did you =think= their goal for "ubiquitous computing" was? Everybody going gargoyle? No. Cheap phones have cameras and displays, all you need for augmented reality apps. Glass will be perfect for low-spec, low-buck locked-down featurephones currently ruled by various flavors of Java.)

Re:Why is iPad so much better than iPhone?

[Anonymous Coward]

*room becomes quiet*
Fandroids trying to answer that one without coming across as arrogant.

Re:Why is iPad so much better than iPhone?

[Anonymous Coward]

Agreed,

I had a CompactFlash based player before they had HD based players. Flash was a bit expensive at the time but it was upgrade able (just pop in a different flash).
Oddly enough current flash based players (ipod, iphone) are NOT upgradeable when i had one 15 years ago that was.

Additionally it was somewhat unusual in that Its UI was "similar" to the IPOD's despite being released YEARS before Apple released the ipod.

But according to many, only others copy apple, never the other way around dispite Jobs "good artists borrow, great artists steal" line.

Re:Why is iPad so much better than iPhone?

[willy_me]

1920x1200 is actually a lot better than 2048x1536 for video playback because 1080p video won't have to be scaled and will look much, much clearer.

This is true if you are talking about a 100" screen. On a 9.7" screen the issue is mute.

Re:Why is iPad so much better than iPhone?

[AmiMoJo]

They sound pretty much the same to me, slight difference in resolution and since manufacturers always exaggerate battery life it's safe to assume 8 hours is reasonable for the iPad Air as well. If anything the 1920x1200 screen is probably better suited to viewing full HD content.

There is also the fact that the Xperia is waterproof (30 minutes submersible) and dustproof.

Re: Why is iPad so much better than iPhone?

[Anonymous Coward]

I'd argue the competitiors to Apple iPad are in the ballpark, but the Apps aren't. The nexus 7 is very nice and much better priced than the iPad.

Re:Why is iPad so much better than iPhone?

[mlts]

There is storage capacity. Not many Android devices support 64 gig, much less 128 gig, although if the device is 64 gig internally and it has a SD card slot, then this is less of an issue.

Re:Why is iPad so much better than iPhone?

[Hognoxious]

I suspect that if I held it close enough to notice the difference I wouldn't be able to see it anyway because it'd be splattered with what used to be my snout.

Re:Why is iPad so much better than iPhone?

[non0score]

Troll fail often? iPad and iPhones tend to have the top of the line internals at the time of release, CPU and GPU (they do skimp on RAM, though). If it wasn't for them maintaining screen resolution to help developers, they probably would've held on to the highest res screens title as well.

Re:Why is iPad so much better than iPhone?

[Anonymous Coward]

Miss the point. The difference is f*ckin' android sh*t.

Re:Why is iPad so much better than iPhone?

[Hognoxious]

I'd take that over Apple's or Microsoft's offerings any day.

Assuming something like CyanogenMod didn't step up to the plate.

Re:Why is iPad so much better than iPhone?

[rve]

did you really say that Android is on borrowed time??

that's just utterly ridiculous...even if Google stopped work on it today, the OS community and the huge worldwide installed userbase would keep it going forever, just like Linus did with unix.

Android is going to be with us forever.

I'd top that with an even bolder statement: in 10 years time, unless something totally unforseeable happens, 'mobile' will mean 'Samsung gadget running Android' much the same way desktop computer meant Wintel up to only a few years ago, with maybe a upper single digit market share for Apple serving a hipster niche.

Re:Why is iPad so much better than iPhone?

[Anonymous Coward]

Do you mean android 2.3 "Bigshit" or Android 4.3 "Bollocks" or Maybe android 3.789 "AnotheOneBitesTheDust" ?

Re:Why is iPad so much better than iPhone?

[NatasRevol]

Isn't there a saying about idiots & arguing?

Re:Why is iPad so much better than iPhone?

[Tom]

You missed that Google is putting more and more Android core apps into close source? The old (free) versions lack features and won't be used by regular users for long. I wouldn't bet on Android hanging around forever.

Basically, it's better than iOS in that regard, but not even near Linux.

Re: Why is iPad so much better than iPhone?

[BorgDrone]

If anything Apple underestimates the battery life.

Re:Why is iPad so much better than iPhone?

[Anonymous Coward]

The issue is only mute if you broke the speaker and don't have headphones.

Re:Why is iPad so much better than iPhone?

[dslmodem]

The SXTZ display: 10.1". iPad Air display: 9.7"

If you won't care about the extra 128x336 pixels, I won't care about the extra 0.4 inches... Or the likely $100 price difference...

your math is horrible.

2048x1536=(1920+128)x(1200+336)=1920x1200+128x1200+1920x336+128x336

Re:Why is iPad so much better than iPhone?

[Hamsterdan]

Most manufactureres tend to exagerrate battery life, but Apple tends to underestimate it on most of their devices

Re: Why is iPad so much better than iPhone?

[Anonymous Coward]

Going by my iPad having lost 30% battery capacity in 6 months since new ...

Re:Why is iPad so much better than iPhone?

[Anonymous Coward]

My understanding is that the iPad is sort of stuck with 2048x1536, precisely due to making pixel doubling work.

While Android apps are written in Java and Google requires the apps to support multiple screen sizes, iOS apps are written closer to the hardware, and so far there are only two screen resolutions for an iPad: 1024x768, and 1024*2 by 768*2. So apps that expect 1024x768 run in pixel-doubling mode.

Someone who actually develops for iPads, please jump in and say whether I am substantially correct or not, thank you.

Re:Why is iPad so much better than iPhone?

[spire3661]

Nope. We'll never again see a Wintel paradigm in computing. The field has way too many large players now.

Re:Why is iPad so much better than iPhone?

[MikShapi]

As far as Apple is concerned, NFC is the wrong horse to bet on.

There's a simple strategy behind it (which I, personally, agree with).

They purge all the single-purpose technologies, in favor of multi-purpose ones. Examples:
Ethernet (a plug that only does one thing) - gone. Your ethernet cable goes through an adapter to USB3 or thunderbolt.
VGA/DVI/Display port - (ditto) - gone in favor of a multi-purpose bus.
Flash cards (a slot that only does one thing) - not on the 11'' airs. use USB3.
SATA - why do we need a storage-only bus?

This is why products like the macbook air are what they are - massively powerful beasts in a tiny package. Because they stripped out all the redundant dead weight.

If you're designing the mac that will ship in 2015 right now, explain to me why you need an NFC radio. It's redundant dead weight.
You already have a radio that does this in there. It's called bluetooth 4.

Apple doesn't commit to technologies on a whim. They know which technology will (eventually) end up doing near-field... and are putting one foot ahead of the other to get there their way.

Re:Why is iPad so much better than iPhone?

[narcc]

Is it "Welcome to Slashdot"?

Re:Why is iPad so much better than iPhone?

[MtHuurne]

Ars recently had an article about Google replacing open source Android core apps with proprietary ones.

Re:Why is iPad so much better than iPhone?

[Anonymous Coward]

CPU's about half the speed, the GPU's about a quarter of the speed.

Re:Why is iPad so much better than iPhone?

[NIK282000]

Wait, you're fighting FOR a lower resolution? This is why we cant have nice things!

Re:Why is iPad so much better than iPhone?

[Anonymous Coward]

iOS apps are not written closer to the HW, and Apple actually has two different systems in place to help apps dynamically adjust UI layout to different screen geometries / canvas sizes. (There's an older one, and a newer one intended to replace it.) It is possible to write a single app that runs on both iPads and iPhone/iPodTouch which uses these facilities to rearrange its UI for the very different screens. (Or even just to rearrange for rotation changes on a single device.)

This doesn't mean that heavily using such systems is a great idea. Apple's stance seems to be that they want iOS app designers to very carefully craft their UI designs for one screen size and one aspect ratio, so they've been very hesitant about changing either of these. Hence there have been exactly two screen geometry changes in iOS history: the first one was the original iPad, and the second was the iPhone 5 last year. (And the latter wasn't a sea change, it just made the screen a little bit taller.)

Having the support for flexible layout doesn't actually mean it's a great idea to push it. Apple seems to think in terms of trying to provide a great canvas for app designers to work with. In their view, too many variants on that canvas produces poorer design because more time spent on tweaking for different layouts is less time spent polishing one (or two, for rotation) layouts to be great.

The pixel doubling thing is a separate issue, BTW. That's more a function of Apple deciding that while you could technically try to work with other ratios, doubling from previously used resolutions gets them to approximately the PPI needed to hit the limits of human visual acuity, and looks better than non-integer scaling ratios (particularly when trying to display any content designed for the old resolution).

Re:Why is iPad so much better than iPhone?

[Anonymous Coward]

So which is bigger? Apparently the ipad screen at 48 sq inches is bigger than sxtz 44 sq inches.

Re:Why is iPad so much better than iPhone?

[Anonymous Coward]

"The issue is only mute..."

Intentional joke or funny typo? You decide.

Re:Why is iPad so much better than iPhone?

[Anonymous Coward]

MGFTW!

\o/

Re:Why is iPad so much better than iPhone?

[CanHasDIY]

Um... what does the technologies put in Mac computers have to do with iPads?

Taking the bait, I see one major issue with relegating all types of connections to dongles that feed into a single port: There will, inevitably, not be enough ports for all the stuff you want to connect.

Of course, in fairness, that's not an issue exclusive to Apple products.

Re:Why is iPad so much better than iPhone?

[locopuyo]

An iPad screen is viewed within arms length. The distortion at that distance is easily apparent to even sub 20-20 vision users.

Re:Why is iPad so much better than iPhone?

[Plumpaquatsch]

The OP said the iPad seem so much better then anything out there.

My point is both tablets are in the same class. Not arguing the new iPad edges out the competition. It should, it's the newest high end tablet, but it's not revolutionary or anything. It will quickly lose the spec crown when the next round of high end Android tablets come out.

So because the Sony is only a little thicker and a little heavier, but not even close in other specs,it's basically as good as the iPad Air?

Re:Why is iPad so much better than iPhone?

[Plumpaquatsch]

They sound pretty much the same to me, slight difference in resolution and since manufacturers always exaggerate battery life it's safe to assume 8 hours is reasonable for the iPad Air as well.

So because Sony won't even tell us what battery life their tablet has (apart from vague promises about "Significantly improve battery life" when not doing anything), you claim that the new iPad Air has just the same battery life, despite the old one outlasting the Sony in all tests, calling the Sony's mediocre at best? Not to mention it's slow and finicky charging (using your beloved Micro-USB) - for which you have to peel it out of the waterproof cover each time.

Re:Why is iPad so much better than iPhone?

[Anonymous Coward]

Troll fail often?

it's pretty clearly a troll win given that you took the bait, you even made the troll accusation and still took the bait.

Re:Why is iPad so much better than iPhone?

[exomondo]

Oh but I bet you the iPad fanboys (note i said 'fanboys', not 'users' because not every iPad user is a rabid fanboy) will tell you all about how they can tell the difference between 2048x1536 and 1920x1200 at arms length distance but that they can't notice any distortion in the scaled picture at that distance, it's their selective iVision.

Re:Why is iPad so much better than iPhone?

[JesseMcDonald]

If you're designing the mac that will ship in 2015 right now, explain to me why you need an NFC radio. ... You already have a radio that does this in there. It's called bluetooth 4.

NFC is Near Field Communication. It's used for things you wouldn't want to be accessible from a distance, like smartcards, and for establishing authentication through close proximity. Ironically, Bluetooth has far too much range to be considered a reasonable replacement for NFC. It also requires both devices to have an active power supply, whereas NFC only requires power for the reader, which induces enough power in passive devices (like smartcards and tags) to activate their NFC functions.

As for whether anyone actually needs NFC... do we actually need any of this? Probably not. They're conveniences. But BT4 and NFC serve completely different functions. Neither one can serve as a replacement for the other.

Re:Why is iPad so much better than iPhone?

[exomondo]

that's just utterly ridiculous...even if Google stopped work on it today, the OS community and the huge worldwide installed userbase would keep it going forever

No they won't, handset makers will simply replace it with something else, probably ChromeOS. Even if handset makers did decide to take on the immense task of maintaining and developing the whole operating system they would each have their own forks of it and the versions would diverge into a totally incompatible mess.

Same thing happened with Maemo/Meego and webOS, they were hailed as brilliant open operating systems yet when left to the community they stagnated and are effectively extinct now.

just like Linus did with unix.

Linus didn't do anything with unix.

Unix Workstation

[psergiu]

Apple haters or not, the saddest thing to realize is that the only UNIX(R) Workstation on the market is now the Mac. As Apple is the only UNIX 03 certification holder who is still making desktops and laptops. All the other UNIX 03 hardware produced at the moment is Datacenter-only rackmounted servers.

So $2999 for a powerful UNIX(R) Workstation is a fair price.

Re:Unix Workstation

[kthreadd]

Well, you could just take any just about any workstation and put Solaris on it.

Re:Unix Workstation

[Anonymous Coward]

What use do you have for a UNIX(R) Workstation when you can use Linux or Freebsd for some UNIX-like goodness? Are their compatibility issues with something you work with?

Re:Unix Workstation

[Anonymous Coward]

Wouldn't your same argument be just as valid if you said "So $100,000 for a powerful UNIX(R) Workstation is a fair price"?

Re:Unix Workstation

[stewsters]

Forget the workstation, I'm thinking of getting a couple of the mac pros and putting them in a rack.

Re:Unix Workstation

[Anonymous Coward]

Well, you could just take any just about any workstation and put Solaris on it.

then you'd have 2 problems

Re:Unix Workstation

[Anonymous Coward]

What use do you have for a UNIX(R) Workstation when you can use Linux or Freebsd for some UNIX-like goodness?

Chicks dig Unix certification.

Re:Unix Workstation

[Anonymous Coward]

I'd say that under Oracle's stewardship that Solaris on the desktop/workstation is fairly dead.

Re:Unix Workstation

[Anonymous Coward]

I was thinking that too, until I found this: http://docs.oracle.com/cd/E23824_01/html/E24456/desktop-123.html

It ships with GNOME 2.30. It is UNIX. It has ZFS. DTrace. Zones. A full GNU stack.
This could actually work as a really good desktop while the Linux distributions sort their mess out.

Re:Unix Workstation

[GodfatherofSoul]

Imagine a Beowulf cluster of THOSE! Especially on a sausage pizza...mmmm....

Re:Unix Workstation

[Anonymous Coward]

What use do you have for a UNIX(R) Workstation when you can use Linux or Freebsd for some UNIX-like goodness?

Chicks dig Unix certification.

Best reply ever!

Re:Unix Workstation

[K. S. Kyosuke]

I believe you can still buy an IBM Power 720 Express system tower box and use it as a workstation. It's a neat machine for any Pure UNIX(R) Dickhead(TM) out there.

Re:Unix Workstation

[psergiu]

Any UNIX(R) admins with mod points in here ? Mod parent up :)

Re:Unix Workstation

[psergiu]

Considering that the last SGI, HP, IBM and Sun workstations used to cost way more than that for the entry models, i do say it's a fair price.
And as perpenso mentioned in a post below, you are able to get a mac mini starting at $600 as a cheaper option.

Re:Unix Workstation

[psergiu]

Oh, thanks !
http://www-03.ibm.com/systems/power/hardware/720/browse_aix.html
I wonder if the base price includes PowerVM or a graphics card.
At 37 to 42 dB, the tower is a bit on the noisy side - on par with the old "tower" Mac Pro.

Re:Unix Workstation

[Anonymous Coward]

Any computer + http://www.freebsd.org/ => A Unix workstation...

I don't follow...

Re:Unix Workstation

[Anonymous Coward]

You are a genius.

Re:Unix Workstation

[mlts]

The ironic thing is when one compares, feature by feature, Apple hardware against workstations by Dell or HP, Apple is actually slightly cheaper. Yes, it is more expensive than consumer level PCs, but with all the items a Mac tends to have, comparing Apple hardware to its peers is a different story.

Of course, who knows how this will hold true come the new Mac Pro form factor. They are more expensive than the previous generation, and stuff like working with FPGA boards is out of the question unless you want to work with a limited set of the PCIe lanes that are on a Thunderbolt breakout box.

Re:Unix Workstation

[Hognoxious]

Unless you use regular expressions.

Re:Unix Workstation

[stenvar]

Most of the people (CS researchers, students, scientists, etc.) who used to use UNIX have pretty much moved to Linux. So whether OS X is technically UNIX or not really doesn't matter much.

Re:Unix Workstation

[aliquis]

Those comparisons always only go one way though.

One have to find a PC with similar or better spec in all cases and if necessary upgrade it until it beat the mac.

It's not ok to pick an adequate or "as good" PC of whatever configuration or pick some PC configuration and ask what macs offer at the same price or what a similar mac would cost because then it all breaks down.

At least that was the case with the old Mac Pro which has very weird hardware configuration which didn't make much sense at all and wasn't like average PCs.

Re:Unix Workstation

[aliquis]

It ships with GNOME 2.30. It is UNIX. It has ZFS. DTrace. Zones. A full GNU stack.
This could actually work as a really good desktop while the Linux distributions sort their mess out.

Yeah. Because Solaris is such an amazing desktop, surely much better than the most popular and common Linux distributions ..

Re:Unix Workstation

[AmiMoJo]

So $2999 for a powerful UNIX(R) Workstation is a fair price.

Even assuming we agree with that you can't seriously claim that the price of a larger SSD or more RAM are fair.

Re:Unix Workstation

[unixisc]

I noticed that as well. $3k does seem steep for a workstation these days, but the spec somewhat justifies it. So one will have this fantastic Xeon workstation (why not use i7?), 12GM DRAM, 2GB VRAM, 256GM SSD, et al all put together to form an OS X workstation that easily eclipses the HP 9000s & SPARCstations of old. Just wonder whether the engineering market is still there for it??

Re:Unix Workstation

[unixisc]

What use do you have for a UNIX(R) Workstation when you can use Linux or Freebsd for some UNIX-like goodness? Are their compatibility issues with something you work with?

OS X is FreeBSD in the sense that you seem to be suggesting here - I doubt that the difference b/w the XNU and the FBSD kernels will make a major difference here, aside from the UI and the Quartz display manager.

Re:Unix Workstation

[K. S. Kyosuke]

I wonder if the base price includes PowerVM or a graphics card.

I wish I knew. The last Unix box I had was an Indy. Probably not the first thing, though - the Specifications page lists all of "PowerVM {Express|Standard|Enterprise} Edition" as "(optional)". According to the fine documentation, you can order "POWER GXT145 PCI Express Graphics" for your machine. If you want to run AIX on the box, I have no idea what the AIX level support is for this hardware. Forget CAD systems, though, this doesn't look like that kind of graphics hardware.

What is a "base price" for these machines, anyway? :)

Re:Unix Workstation

[c 0xFF]

That's why I run /.*nix/ on my workstations.

Re:Unix Workstation

[dfghjk]

What an ignorant perspective. Tribalists will say anything.

Re:Unix Workstation

[Anonymous Coward]

Right, then you have 3 problems.

Re:Unix Workstation

[unixisc]

Well, if one is talking about an x64 desktop/workstation OS w/ the above, PC-BSD is there. But I think the GP was also referring to the death of SPARC workstations, which would be relevant in this discussion, since we are talking about XEON based workstations from Apple w/ configurations that would be typical of high end UnixStations from the likes of Sun, HP or IBM. THAT segment seems dead, and the vendors/customers who depended on that have either moved to Lintel or Wintel, or they've moved to Apple. I agree w/ the OP on this one - this seems to be the only real UnixStation today in the market - running Quartz over FBSD/XNU and w/ workstation like configuration.

Re:Unix Workstation

[unixisc]

Are there any Itanium based workstations out there? Any Itanium based workstation running something like FreeBSD or Debian Linux - the only 2 FOSS Unixes out there, and w/ a similar configuration, could probably do wonders. Of course, the software that it'd need would probably have to be some sort of FOSS as well, so that it could be compiled to run on it. That would be the only other CPU other than POWER that could be competive w/ the new Mac Pro

Re: Unix Workstation

[Anonymous Coward]

Speak for yourself. Mac use is increasing drastically in my institute.

Whew! That certainly lightens the burden...

[intermodal]

of hating Apple! Thanks guys, I'm here all week. Tip your wait-staff.

Built-in apps

[Anonymous Coward]

It sure looks to me like they are now including keynote, pages, imovie, garageband installed at no charge.

At least that is how it looks from apples site.

Re:Built-in apps

[mosb1000]

They are free with all new macs or iOS devices.

A shot at other OS, computer *and* device makers

[perpenso]

iWork is now free, and include collaboration features that MS Office will have a hell of a time trying to match.

-jcr

A major shot at other operating system, computer *and* mobile device makers. Free (as in beer) major OS update (computers) and free productivity apps (computers and mobile devices). Bundling the productivity apps with new computers and mobile devices will help Apple maintain their price points. Once again, Apple demonstrates that they are a hardware company at heart, that software is a tool to sell that hardware.

Free Free Free

[Anonymous Coward]

Amazing how they're just giving the software away...

Re:Free Free Free

[iroll]

Exactly! Free stuff can't possibly be as good as stuff that costs $200.

Re:Free Free Free

[kthreadd]

They will just make it up in volume.

Re:Free Free Free

[bearinboots]

Apple software exists to drive hardware sales -- the exact opposite of the Microsoft business models. It's a smart move.

Re:Free Free Free

[Anonymous Coward]

Not giving it away, exactly, more like bundling it with new machines.

Re:Whew! That certainly lightens the burden...

[Anonymous Coward]

You all wanted software to be free, right?

Looking forward to iPad nano

[oo_00]

Oh, wait...

ipad air? so when does the ipad pro come out?

[Anonymous Coward]

looks like they are getting ready for a "pro" ipad?

captcha: aperture

which reminds me are they ever going to update that or what?

Only 16GB

[Anonymous Coward]

Will the new iPad mini be limited to 16GB or is there a 32GB version at well?

Re:Only 16GB

[mjperson]

The new iPad Mini comes in 16, 32, 64, AND 128 GB models. Just like the full-sized ones.

Re:Only 16GB

[spire3661]

At $100 per breakpoint. I fucking hate how this came to be. No external storage AND pay through the nose for storage.

Re:Only 16GB

[Anonymous Coward]

Do they have the same amount of memory? (And how much?)

Re:Only 16GB

[CastrTroy]

If it was at least linear, I could deal with it. Buy why does upgrading from 16 GB to 32 GB (an additional 16 GB) cost $100, while upgrading from 64 GB to 128 GB (an additional 64 GB) also cost $100? $100 for 64 GB extra is almost reasonable, assuming they are using quality NAND storage chips like you find on hard drives, and not the kind of stuff you find in SD cards. But $100 for 16 GB of storage is just robbery.

Re:Only 16GB

[Macgrrl]

Investigate an Air Stash for unlimited storage on your iPad. My husband has one and they rock.

Re:Only 16GB

[Kjella]

Psychology. A lot of people will stay on the base model and pat themselves on the back for $100 well saved. The people who want more space will by sold up to the 64/128 GB model and pat themselves on the back for getting so many more GB/$. I think the subset of people who are:

a) certain 16GB won't be enough
b) certain 32GB will be enough
c) willing to pay $100 extra for the privilege

is in an extreme minority. People have no idea what NAND prices are, they just need to feel good about their own choice and the easiest way is to give them a bad choice to make it look good against. So raise your hand everyone with a 32GB model ;)

Re:Only 16GB

[Anonymous Coward]

Apple has never engaged in cost-based pricing strategies.
( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pricing_strategies#Cost-Plus_pricing )

See here for how apple has always set retail prices: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pricing_strategies#Market-oriented_pricing

The answer to your question is simple: What the components cost is irrelevant. Apple's research says that those are the best price/performance balances that derive maximum profit from customers.

Re:Only 16GB

[Anonymous Coward]

If it was at least linear, I could deal with it. Buy why does upgrading from 16 GB to 32 GB (an additional 16 GB) cost $100, while upgrading from 64 GB to 128 GB (an additional 64 GB) also cost $100? $100 for 64 GB extra is almost reasonable, assuming they are using quality NAND storage chips like you find on hard drives, and not the kind of stuff you find in SD cards. But $100 for 16 GB of storage is just robbery.

Vua cho gach khong nung

Re:Only 16GB

[Anonymous Coward]

I bet your husband also has a hurting butthole from when you peg him with a strap-on. Now which one of you has the mustache?

4K display, anyone?

[timeOday]

I was really hoping the new MacBook pro would support a new 4k external display. With Thunderbolt 2 making it in, my question now is whether it will have the graphics grunt to handle it, and what sort of 4K display they are releasing in tandem with the Mac Pro?

Re:4K display, anyone?

[Anonymous Coward]

It can support 3 of them simultaneously, and do real time 4k video editing. They called that out pretty early in the presentation.

Re:4K display, anyone?

[Anonymous Coward]

Oh sorry, read that as Mac Pro not MacBook Pro. My mistake...

Re:4K display, anyone?

[spire3661]

Wait, they are working on Thunderbolt 2? Thunderbolt 1 is a huge market failure. You can barely find any thunderbolt parts, much less any that are reasonably priced.

Re:4K display, anyone?

[psergiu]

I am having some memory flashbacks to when people were saying about the same things about USB.

Thunderbolt *IS* PCI Express. Interfacing any PCI hardware with Thunderbolt is extremely simple from the manufacturer's p.o.v. - it's a single bridge chip. Then you use the same drivers you used for the internal PCI/PCIe card.

Re:4K display, anyone?

[timeOday]

I largely agree, since I am currently using one of the early Thunderbolt MacBook Pros, and there has been extremely little available for Thunderbolt for most of that time. But Apple is the only major player advancing 4k desktop displays at the moment, and they are using Thunderbolt 2 to do that.

Re:4K display, anyone?

[dprimary]

The Mac Book Pro will do 4k at 24 frames

Re:4K display, anyone?

[nojayuk]

Are Apple selling 4k displays? The only "major players" I know of with 4k displays on the market right now are Asus and Sony. The review articles I've seen on them have tended to concentrate on gamer applications with high-end video card setups (multiple Titans and the like) in PCs running Windows; I don't think I've seen anyone demoing Apple kit driving 4k displays.

Re:4K display, anyone?

[timeOday]

4k was touted in the original Mac Pro announcement, and it has two high-end graphics cards. That's why I was hoping for the announcement of a 4k Apple display today. I guess it didn't happen. In fact here's a wired article from 30 minutes ago on the very topic. I use my current MacBook Pro on a 30" Dell monitor so I am not a brand purist. But since a 4k display on a laptop is cutting edge I thought a vendor-supported configuration would be smoothest. I've had pretty spotty results driving dual dvi max resolution from laptops in the past - not just performance, but even supporting it at all.

Re:4K display, anyone?

[nojayuk]

There's an HP box which is built around supporting Red 4k camera video; apparently it uses a single commodity video card, nothing really top-end but it can drive a 4k display and a couple of 27" 2560x1440 displays at the same time under Windows 8. Here's a link to a blog entry about it with some video.

Dev only needs mini to test 64-bit A7/M7 ...

[perpenso]

Not true... http://www.apple.com/ipad-mini/specs/ specifically lists the chip as: "A7 chip with 64-bit architecture and M7 motion coprocessor"

Thank you. I am thrilled to be wrong. I only noticed the M7 being mentioned with respect to the iPad Air during the presentation, I read too much into that.

So a developer only needs to get a mini to test 64-bit code and A7/M7 functionality.

Re:Dev only needs mini to test 64-bit A7/M7 ...

[hazydave]

Not surprising... this looks to be a perhaps customized version of an NXP embedded ARM processor, the M7 that is. If I'm paying as little as $3.50 for these, I can only imagine how cheap they are for Apple. And this should make practical a slew of applications that could be done without it, but would likely run down your battery in no time flat. The little IOP can sample and cook data for the main SOC all day without using much juice.

Re:Dev only needs mini to test 64-bit A7/M7 ...

[perpenso]

I'm eager to see how less frequent polling of satellites and dead reckoning with the M7 in-between will work for backpacking. A couple of years ago I experimented while going on walks near home and I estimate that relevant GPS apps would drain my 4S in about four hours. When I actually go camping and backpacking I download topo maps but don't use the phone for much beyond dropping waypoints on the car and the campsite. My phone is normally powered down and inside a dry bag in my day pack. I go old school for navigation and use a map and compass. The phone is there as a backup, or more likely a camera.

thin thing

[swampfriend]

wouldn't a better name have been "ipod hair"

Re:thin thing

[Guy Harris]

wouldn't a better name have been "ipod hair"

I really do not want an iPod, or even an iPad, that I have to shave.

Re:thin thing

[Anonymous Coward]

That name is reserved for the bendable iPad/iWatch Wearable Curly Hair

Mac PRO starts at 3K only 256GB storage

[Joe_Dragon]

Mac PRO starts at 3K only 256GB storage base.

Imac's at half the price have X4 storage base.

based on new laptop pricing looking at an $800.00 add on to get 1TB build in.

Re:Mac PRO starts at 3K only 256GB storage

[perpenso]

For many the internal storage often doesn't need to do much more than boot the operating system, provide VM swap and host apps. A typical user will probably have an external RAID to do their work on. Others will get the 512GB or 1TB upgrades.

Re:Mac PRO starts at 3K only 256GB storage

[Anonymous Coward]

The Mac Pro is intended to be a graphics/video workstation. You use external disks to hold your data because you have massive amount of data you need to deal with.

No internal drive is big enough for the workloads it is intended to be used for, you attach a external cage with a bunch of disks via thunderbolt or a SAN.

Re:Mac PRO starts at 3K only 256GB storage

[psergiu]

Spinning HDD in iMac vs 1.21 Jigabytes/sec PCIe SSD in Mac Pro.

Re:Mac PRO starts at 3K only 256GB storage

[Anonymous Coward]

Plus it looks better too. I mean who doesn't remember the old mac days with stacks of external drives?

Most decent PC's will hold at least 4 HD's (some more). Then again they are not round.

I know i personally find it easier to deal with a PC with a dozen eternal drives all sweating in their poorly vented cases. Sure beats a decent case with fans on the drives.

Re:Mac PRO starts at 3K only 256GB storage

[AmiMoJo]

Even so, for 3K a mere 256GB SSD is stingy. Similarly priced machines are coming with 512GB of more now. It's also not that much for a system drive + apps. I recently installed an embedded OS cross-development platform at work which was over 100GB all said and done. Even amateur video editors (the pros use custom Windows based machines supplied by the same people who do the software, basically appliances) would benefit from keeping the stuff they are working with on the fast SSD and then moving it to slower HDD bulk storage when done.

Re:Mac PRO starts at 3K only 256GB storage

[Macgrrl]

There are decent external drive enclosures with good power and heat management and excellent access to hot swap drives as required. For example, check out Synology.

Re:Mac PRO starts at 3K only 256GB storage

[Anonymous Coward]

This is utterly asinine. A professional computer should be able to easily add internal storage. Just one drive bay would allow adding an additional 4 TB of data. I seriously doubt the majority of Mac Pros will be used for projects that wouldn't fit on even one HD. Apple may be pushing users to external storage via thunderbolt and SAN, but it is not because they can't provide enough internal storage for their users needs.

Re:Mac PRO starts at 3K only 256GB storage

[dk20]

So after buying a "high performance graphics workstation" one should also buy a high performance NAS?
Is that the apple model?

Re:Mac PRO starts at 3K only 256GB storage

[unixisc]

Internal storage is a PCIe SSD, which won't be cheap (as opposed to SATA SSD, which doesn't make as much sense than going full HDD). So if users need more than 256GB, then it's probably a good idea to have a 4TB drive connected to the Mac Pro via USB. Note that since we're talking PCIe as opposed to SATA, the drive bay is irrelevant here, since it's only needed as a compatibility feature w/ the old SATA HDDs. But PCIe needs a different compatibility - of the flash memory w/ the PCIe bus.

$2600 to get a laptop with better then Intel video

[Joe_Dragon]

$2600 to get a laptop with better then Intel video??

they used to have the $2000 ones with better video but now

Incompetent Press

[SuperKendall]

Not to bash the iPhone, but how is it that Apple seems to be so much ahead of the pack when it comes to the iPad but the iPhone seems to be just another high-end smartphone?

It seems that way because the press is incapable of understanding what it means that both iPad and iPhone now ship with a 64-bit processor, and full-time motion chip - as well as strong BTLE support, something Android has only recently begun to adopt.

The iPhone 5s is leading all of the other smartphones on the market today in terms of technology - just not in screen size.

Re:Incompetent Press

[purpledinoz]

Sweet, 64-bit processor. Now I can have more than 4 billion friends on facebook!

Re:Incompetent Press

[Anonymous Coward]

It seems that way because the press is incapable of understanding what it means that both iPad and iPhone now ship with a 64-bit processor, and full-time motion chip - as well as strong BTLE support, something Android has only recently begun to adopt.

The iPhone 5s is leading all of the other smartphones on the market today in terms of technology - just not in screen size.

For consumer use, the advances in technology are largely irrelevant at this point. It's like putting out a razor with 6 blades. The next advance is going to be battery life that lasts for weeks or months, and no one has that yet.

Re:Incompetent Press

[ArcadeMan]

This has to be the most on-topic, relevant and yet funny post about 64-bit processors.

Re:Incompetent Press

[Anonymous Coward]

Bullshit.

Users, who are not necessarily tech savvy, use games, video editing, sound creation and graphics intensive apps all the time on their phones and tablets. The advances in technology are not irrelevant at all. Some cool apps and games already utilise now the 64-bit processor on the 5s, and it will be more relevant when developers will get their hands on the iPad air.

Re:Incompetent Press

[AmiMoJo]

I don't think you understand what it means.

64 bit - better performance, but it's still fewer cores and lower performance than high end Android devices. In any case, games look nice on both platforms.

Full-time motion chip - Lower power version of what we already have, so it can maybe replace some Bluetooth sports/health apps but so far it hasn't done much. Some of the suggested uses are laughable because Android has been doing them for years, e.g. turn phone over to mute or enhance GPS precision.

BTLE - Okay, yeah, Apple got there first.

On the other hand the screen is still SD, not even 720p. No NFC, which has actual practical uses like sharing, tags and payments. Not waterproof or ruggedized. No 1080p video output or MirrorLink support. I have not even started on the software.

That's why people say it's mid-range, although these days even the mid-range Android phones like the GS3 are considerably better spec'ed.

Re: Incompetent Press

[BorgDrone]

64 bit - better performance, but it's still fewer cores and lower performance than high end Android devices.

I'm assuming you're referring to the snapdragon 800, which seems to be the top performing SoC in Android devices at the moment. Have you seen the benchmarks ?

The dual-core 1.3Ghz A7 whoops the quad-core 2.4Ghz Snapdragon 800's ass. Which just shows how awesome Apple's chip designers are.

Re:Incompetent Press

[drfuchs]

Well, 2 billion, actually. They forgot to use "unsigned".

Re:Incompetent Press

[idontgno]

That's OK. You can use the other 2 billion for your negative friends.

Re: Incompetent Press

[narcc]

I thought specs didn't matter?

Re:Incompetent Press

[Dixie_Flatline]

Go to AnandTech and look at the benchmarks for the A7. It is *by far* the fastest processor currently on the market (other than the Intel that isn't actually in anything). It clocks lower and has fewer cores, but still wildly outperforms anything inside a Samsung right now. The Snapdragons can't quite keep up.

And, actually, if you look at those benchmarks, you'll also realise that the iPhone 5 (and the A6 inside it) still come in near the top of the pack, despite being a year old.

There are plenty of reasons to not like Apple hardware, but performance and performance per watt aren't among them.

why no Fusion Drive choice for latops?

[Joe_Dragon]

1TB max is low and 256GB base is small.

Also roaming costs, low caps, speed caped wifi makes cloud use not that ideal way to work.

Re:why no Fusion Drive choice for latops?

[UnknowingFool]

Every single one of your posts is a complaint about every single product that Apple has that doesn't fit your specific needs. Apple is not making a product for you. A Mac Pro is not a consumer desktop. A MacBook Air is not a gaming laptop. An iPad is not a development machine. Get over it and buy something else. I don't own a tablet because I don't want one. I don't post on every single Apple iPad story about how they don't last a month on a single charge like a Kindle can.

Re:why no Fusion Drive choice for latops?

[Anonymous Coward]

Most "notebook size" drives that store 1 TB or more won't fit in notebook hard drive bays. A regular notebook hard drive bay is 9.5mm high (or so), and the "plus-size" drives are 12.5mm high. For that matter, some of the 750 GB drives are 12.5mm high. So designing a Retina MBP to accept hard drives wouldn't necessarily get you larger drives - just cheaper drives, and a larger, heavier chassis.

There is one conventional Mac laptop left in the lineup - the 13" non-Retina MBP. You could probably use a third-party kit to replace the optical drive with a hard drive mounting platform. Then move the hard drive to the optical bay and put a SSD where the hard drive used to be. Since they would both be internal drives, you could even (if you were brave enough) bind them into a Fusion drive.

A $600 Mac mini is also UNIX(R)

[perpenso]

Apple haters or not, the saddest thing to realize is that the only UNIX(R) Workstation on the market is now the Mac. As Apple is the only UNIX 03 certification holder who is still making desktops and laptops. All the other UNIX 03 hardware produced at the moment is Datacenter-only rackmounted servers.

So $2999 for a powerful UNIX(R) Workstation is a fair price.

A $600 Mac mini is also UNIX(R) and for many UNIX(R) users it is quite usable. Not all UNIX(R) users need a *high performance* workstation.

Re:A $600 Mac mini is also UNIX(R)

[psergiu]

You're absolutely right. I do have a mac mini and it does everything i need it for. But like the most family car owners who dream of having a muscle car, mac mini owners dream of getting a Mac Pro - even if they don't need it.

I think mac mini is the cheapest UNIX(R) workstation there ever was.
Even the SGI Indy in the basic configuration (16Mb ram, 8bit 2D graphics) was incredibly expensive when new.

Re:A $600 Mac mini is also UNIX(R)

[r_jensen11]

But like the most family car owners who dream of having a muscle car, mac mini owners dream of getting a Mac Pro - even if they don't need it.

[Citation needed]

I'm going to go out on a limb here and venture to guess that I'm like most Mac Mini owners in the sense that I already had a working monitor, keyboard, and mouse, and determined that spending an extra $500-$1000 for an integrated display and couldn't care less about the Mac Pro because I'm not even close to taxing the Mini with my day-to-day usage (hence no noticable increase in value.)

Re:A $600 Mac mini is also UNIX(R)

[Anonymous Coward]

As someone who used to have a Mac Pro and now with a Mac Mini, I assure you there is a difference and it is worth it. However, I also just got a Mustang and I'd rather spend the money on a sports car than a Mac Pro.

Mavericks is free? Hmmm...

[umafuckit]

I recall paying for my upgrades to Snow Leopard and Mountain Lion, so if Mavericks is free then what's Apple getting out of this? Are they slipping in some iOSification of the desktop, or other bullshit like that? I've looked at Apple's pages on Mavericks and I can't see anything overtly dodgy, but also I don't believe there's such a thing as a free lunch...

Re:Mavericks is free? Hmmm...

[fox1324]

Apple makes their money primarily from selling hardware. By making OS updates free it makes moving to the Mac ecosystem that much more attractive.

Re:Mavericks is free? Hmmm...

[Anonymous Coward]

If you held out until Lion was available, Apple would send you the Snow Leopard upgrade disk for free. Frankly, I'm happy with SL, but may move to Mavericks since it's a gimmie.

I've yet to pay for an OS upgrade on my Mac Mini.

Re:Mavericks is free? Hmmm...

[Anonymous Coward]

and, add that microsoft is giving away windows 8.1 to 8.0 sufferers^H^H^H^H^H^Howners... albiet with the requirement that one must give up their personal information and create an online microsoft account in order to "purchase" it at no cost through windows store (which is the whole point of putting it there instead of on the usual windows update service, where it should've been made available from).

Re:Mavericks is free? Hmmm...

[umafuckit]

Yeah, I get that, but the earlier upgrades were pretty cheap so it didn't feel like money was an object when it came to upgrading your OS. I could see they were doing what you say: provide a cheap, possibly loss-making, OS upgrade in order to boost the ecosystem as a whole. It's the fact that this one actually is free that made me pause.

Re:Mavericks is free? Hmmm...

[MaWeiTao]

I think it comes down to the fact that Microsoft just released Windows 8.1. Like all previous service pack updates, substantial or otherwise, this one is free. The difference here is that the release of that has hit so close to the release of Mavericks. In that light, charging for an OSX update that doesn't feature too many obvious changes likely wouldn't go over well amongst many. So Apple traded some minor profit for good publicity.

Re:Mavericks is free? Hmmm...

[boristhespider]

I've been staying on SL deliberately since Lion came along and broke my Rosetta. Now I don't have anything needing Rosetta but I am increasingly finding that new programs I want only work on Lion and above. So I'm going to upgrade to Mavericks in a few weeks when the first major bug release comes along and means we'll avoid bricking our machines. I'm spending the evening backing up my home directory, and my SL DVD is sitting nearby so I can get straight back to where I am if it all goes horribly wrong.

Re:Mavericks is free? Hmmm...

[bill_mcgonigle]

if Mavericks is free then what's Apple getting out of this? Are they slipping in some iOSification of the desktop

Yeah, they've got the whole app store thing in the desktop OS now, and they take a cut of each purchase, so to *not* give a free upgrade to a user of an earlier system, they have to bet that the $30 they'd get for the download (or was it $20 last time?) is more than the commission on all the apps that that user might buy over the life of his computer.

Plus the cache' of having free OS upgrades as a selling point for its users. Just keep buying new hardware and MacDaddy will take care of you.

I know I wasn't alone in saying here that Apple should give away the OS 5 years ago (back when they were quibbling about some driver update they couldn't send out because of accounting recognition or some other such BS) but I have to admit, they've monetized the process successfully.

Re:Mavericks is free? Hmmm...

[mordejai]

Just the same as Mavericks, only you have to enter your CREDIT CARD INFORMATION to create an Apple ID.

Re:Mavericks is free? Hmmm...

[davidbrit2]

Increasing goodwill to sell more hardware, and burning a bit of revenue to rake MS over the coals a little.

Re:Mavericks is free? Hmmm...

[mlts]

I think Apple is going with the razor and blade model. The OS with the store comes at no cost because it helps sell the hardware, while the money coming in will be from the App Store.

So, it pays Apple to get people onto the same version of OS X, just so they can push store changes out and entice more developers to the platform.

All and all, a win/win/win for all parties involved. $0 upgrades are a benefit, developers get more people who can run their programs, and Apple gets more money from the 30% cut from people buying stuff.

Re:Mavericks is free? Hmmm...

[umafuckit]

So, it pays Apple to get people onto the same version of OS X, just so they can push store changes out and entice more developers to the platform.

Yes, that certainly makes sense. After all, it's been the successful working model on the iPhone and iPad. I think I'll whack Mavericks onto my media centre Mini and see how it goes. Getting onto my laptop will cost me $20 because I'll have to upgrade TotalSpaces (unless there's a free version or Apple have produce a non-fucked version of multiple desktops).

Re:Mavericks is free? Hmmm...

[SpeZek]

I'm sticking with SL because Spaces and Expose are much more functional than Mission Control, I'm not coerced into giving my data to Apple's cloud, and it's just faster due to less bloat.

Re:Mavericks is free? Hmmm...

[quacking duck]

I think it comes down to the fact that Microsoft just released Windows 8.1. Like all previous service pack updates, substantial or otherwise, this one is free. The difference here is that the release of that has hit so close to the release of Mavericks. In that light, charging for an OSX update that doesn't feature too many obvious changes likely wouldn't go over well amongst many. So Apple traded some minor profit for good publicity.

The impression I got is that it's a semi-permanent change, though, i.e. future OSX upgrades would also be free.

It's actually a rather staggering amount of potential sales they're passing up on for this OSX version alone: close to $1 billion at the previous price of $20 (assuming 40-50 million Mavericks-capable Macs sold since 2007, given that Macs now have an installed base of 72 million, 28 million copies of Mountain Lion sold as of June excluding pre-installs).

Re:Mavericks is free? Hmmm...

[pr0nbot]

It'll be free to get people like me who're still on older versions of the OS to upgrade, so they have fewer versions to support. I expect soon they'll announce no more support for Snow Leopard et al.

Re:Mavericks is free? Hmmm...

[Anonymous Coward]

I recall paying for my upgrades to Snow Leopard and Mountain Lion, so if Mavericks is free then what's Apple getting out of this? Are they slipping in some iOSification of the desktop, or other bullshit like that? I've looked at Apple's pages on Mavericks and I can't see anything overtly dodgy, but also I don't believe there's such a thing as a free lunch...

Long term?

They're getting out of having to offer updates for 4-year-old software versions.

"You want to use the newest version of iTunes/newest iCloud feature/a secure version of Safari? Just download the free update to Mavericks"

Re:Mavericks is free? Hmmm...

[Anonymous Coward]

I'm holding out for OS XI, Gooses. Or maybe Icemans...er, Icemen?

Re: Mavericks is free? Hmmm...

[EGSonikku]

Not true:

http://support.apple.com/kb/HT2534

Re:Mavericks is free? Hmmm...

[Anonymous Coward]

are you actually suggesting the concept of a fake name and throwaway email address is foreign to you? really? like how fucking retarded are you?

Re:Mavericks is free? Hmmm...

[sootman]

> ... and my SL DVD is sitting nearby so I can get straight
> back to where I am if it all goes horribly wrong.

You don't have a time machine drive? :-)

Re:Mavericks is free? Hmmm...

[Anonymous Coward]

So you're one of those folks that make us OS X app developers cringe? Thanks! One of the main reason why so many apps don't work on Snow Leopard, or have issues with bugs on it is many of the new APIs Apple has added just aren't there on Snow Leopard, and things like GCD were just introduced, and often don't play nice when using the newer "best practices". I'd actually go as far as to say that Snow Leopard support plays a big part in lower adoption of some of the newer APIs, or lack of a Snow Leopard support in some apps.

Yes I am aware of weak linking.

Also only bugs I've noticed are with slow exchange syncing, some System Configuration framework functions not working as they traditionally have, and a weird scroll issue with my track pad after I've abused the crap out of my mac for days. A few others are there too. Truth is, for me, it has been more stable that 10.7.0 or 10.8.0.

I'd recommend a Time Machine backup on top of backing up your home directory. This way your home directory backup can function if something goes horribly wrong but you *may* be able to restore from a time machine back up and simplify the process significantly.

BTW - I was very happy when they said free, means maybe that 15-20% still running Snow Leopard will just convert, same for lion (with a surprisingly similar share)

Re:Mavericks is free? Hmmm...

[boristhespider]

Actually no, I never went in for Time Machine.

Re:Mavericks is free? Hmmm...

[boristhespider]

Never intended to make anyone cringe :) And I've never complained to a developer that the app doesn't run on Snow Leopard - it's my choice to do so, so it wouldn't really be fair to bitch that they're not wasting two months of their lives trying to implement a workaround for those lacking the new APIs. I suspect we'll see the free release of Mavericks does help kick people like me who are still on SL into a new system. In all honesty, while the price (or lack of it) obviously helps the timing is serendipitous -- the other day I started looking at upgrading to Mountain Lion so I can get updated or new apps that Snow Leopard doesn't support... and then Mavericks was released.

I've actually toyed with the idea of backing up my home directory and then installing a fresh copy of Snow Leopard and then a fresh install of Mavericks, if I'm honest. It takes a while to reinstall stuff -- particularly via Macports -- but I *would* have a totally clean installation. Probably a leftover of my days of swapping Windows 3.1 for 3.11 for 95 for 3.11 for 95 for 98 for 95 for 98SE for 2000 for 98SE (and rinse and repeat on those ones - I kept getting frustrated with 98SE's old-fashioned ways, and then frustrated that 2000 was too slow on my machine and, more importantly, couldn't play Thief...)

Re:Mavericks is free? Hmmm...

[hazydave]

Yup... they're removing any barrier to the new OS, and thus, any good reason for older users not to upgrade. That may kill off some old hardware faster, if there are machines that can't be upgraded, also maybe a good thing in the short term. And they're giving Mac users a big warm and fuzzy smooch on the cheek, at the same time their main competition has been pushing an OS that practically no one likes, for $100+ a copy. They're looking at PC users and saying "come over here, we have cookies".

Re:Mavericks is free? Hmmm...

[Anonymous Coward]

I held out upgrading because I too hadn't paid for one and was in Snow Leopard. The games on steam were all reporting that they'd only work on lion-plus by the end of the month (aspyr was dropping snow leopard support) so I was patting myself on the back for scoring Civ V at 75% off just before the OS update. Then they make Maverick free. Apple - you stole my trivial victory of the month damn you! XD

boring

[Anonymous Coward]

So its a boring thinner IPAD like everyone expected but they called it the "IPAD Air" to try to put lipstick on the pig.

Hmm...

[JustAnotherIdiot]

Apple also announced that the new version of Mac OS X (10.9 Mavericks) is available now and is free to all Mac OS X users

I'd check for a "Courtesy of the NSA" fine print.

Re:Hmm...

[Anonymous Coward]

Google gives away Android, does it not? How about ChromeOS?

Memory options

[spire3661]

When is Apple going to join the 21st century on memory pricing. $100 per breakpoint is insane. 16 GB baseline is a joke at these premium prices. Attempting to get $100 for 32 GB is a giant fuck you.

Re:Memory options

[Dzimas]

When is Apple going to join the 21st century on memory pricing. $100 per breakpoint is insane. 16 GB baseline is a joke at these premium prices. Attempting to get $100 for 32 GB is a giant fuck you.

Actually, they attempting to get $100 for a 16GB increase. The company doesn't need to reduce their margins unless there's market pressure to do so.

Re:Memory options

[spire3661]

Your statement wholly depends on what device you are talking about. For the 64 GB ipad my point remains.

Re:Memory options

[bill_mcgonigle]

When is Apple going to join the 21st century on memory pricing.

Why would they? People pay it.

Re:Memory options

[Dzimas]

Not quite. The 64 GB version costs $200 more than the 16 GB baseline you mention and includes 48 GB more memory.

Re: install on any machine

[SpaceManFlip]

Not really true. It just needs special bootloaders to emulate Macs' EFI, and a few customized drivers, and a healthy disregard for EULAs.

Re:A shot at other OS, computer *and* device maker

[Anonymous Coward]

And how much does your comparable PC (not bargain basement - something with identical, or as close as possible, hardware specs) cost after you buy your OS and Office suite? I'm guessing more than a Mac.

Re:A shot at other OS, computer *and* device maker

[Anonymous Coward]

Then you're an idiot and need to learn how pricing works....i5, 8gb ram, aluminum case pc laptop on newegg RIGHT NOW, $400. Comes with windows, and then add office for $140 more? Ohhh....soooo much more $ than a Mac!!

Getting to be too many models, again?

[gman003]

Remember the mid-90s, when Apple had dozens upon dozens of Macintoshes, Power Macs, Quadras, and so on? And how one of the first things Jobs did when he returned was slash all of those, which put them back on the road to their current success?

Yeah, they're up to four different iPads now, all currently being sold. The iPad Mini, "iPad Mini with Retina", iPad 2, and iPad Air, and I'm sure they still have some "Fourth-Generation iPads" to sell off. Each of these has a few variants for WiFi/3G and storage. And they also have a trio of iPhones - the 4S, 5C and 5S - again with storage capacity variations.

On the desktop, a pair of laptops (the Macbook Air and Macbook Pro) with a few size options, and trio of desktops (Mini, iMac (two sizes) and Mac Pro) has worked pretty well for them. They really need to cut down on their other models - using the old iPhone as the "cheap" model worked, discontinuing the old one in favor of a low-cost second model would also have worked, but as it is I see little purpose to keeping both the 4S and 5C around. And for the iPad? A Mini and a Pro would have been fine. Google is actually being smarter than they are on this - they have a Nexus 7 and a Nexus 10, updated as needed. Clear product differentiation - you want a small, cheap tablet? Nexus 7. Larger and more powerful tablet? Nexus 10. Apple is less clear - their high-end "Mini" costs the same as their low-end "full-size". They could probably make the iPad models make sense (iPad Mini, iPad Pro Mini, iPad, iPad Pro), but the way they currently are is crap.

Re:Getting to be too many models, again?

[Anonymous Coward]

Based on Apples finances as of today, I'd say they still know what they're doing. Each category of products they are in are different enough to warrant significant price differences and maintain the margin they demand. Compared to just about any other manufacturer out there, they have a very small product line.

Once they need to farm out third party companies to build their dozens of models in the senario you used above, they can follow their own (and your) advice and trim back down.

Re:Getting to be too many models, again?

[Anonymous Coward]

You've got to remember that the people cheerleading Apple now were the ones in the 1990's saying Apple was going out of business and in line to purchase windows 95.

Re: Getting to be too many models, again?

[Anonymous Coward]

I agree that Apple has too many models. However, if you don't have a lead with lazer sharp vision, diversification is your next best bet. That's where Apple is - and also explains the lack of vision and innovation we are seeing.
Sorry to the fanboys who are getting hostile to anyone who isn't heaping praise on the iPad. Heap away.

Re:Getting to be too many models, again?

[Anonymous Coward]

I can't help but think that if Jobs were alive he'd have killed the nonretina ipads and that red headed stepchild 5c.

Re:Getting to be too many models, again?

[Anonymous Coward]

Apple's finances as of today tell you how they've been doing over the last five years.

Loss of vision & strategic mis-steps take a while to show up.

Re:Getting to be too many models, again?

[sootman]

No, it's not the same, or even very confusing, because the differences are mostly binary. The Mac lineup in the mid-90s was indeed a mess. The models were randomly arranged and it was like "if you want the sunroof, you have to get the leather seats" with cars. Now, all the products are just the answer to a few questions:

Laptop: Super-thin, or powerful? Air: 11" or 13"? Pro: 13" or 15"? Retina or not? And then the typical speed/RAM/HD options.

iPad: they don't really expect people to buy the iPad 2. It's there for educational buyers, or the small handful of people who want a cheap 10" iPad. They aren't on the main iPad page, only on the "compare" page and in the store. (I don't even know if they actually have iPad 2s sitting out in the retail stores.)

Inventory of iPads that are, as of today, "old", will be cleared out quickly and never spoken of again. That leaves: 8" or 10"? Retina or not? 16/32/64 GB? 3G or WiFi-only? Four yes/no questions, the answer to each of which is pretty simple for most people, and in every case, "more costs more". Few people are so budget-constrained AND with such strong needs that they're really agonizing over "I want this capacity, but then I can't afford 3G..."

Phones: You want 2 tiers, Apple wants 3. For a while they had 2, at $199 and $99; now they have 3, at $199, $99, and $0. Not THAT confusing. The choices are: free and black, $99 fast and colorful and bigger screen, or $199, staid colors, and super powerful. Beyond that, you pick your carrier (duh) and capacity (if you're getting a non-$0 phone.)

Google isn't a big hardware maker. Neither is Amazon. It makes sense that they'd keep their lineups simple. Apple, on the other hand, makes all their money on hardware (note the free OS upgrade and free productivity apps, etc.) so naturally they want to appeal to as many people as possible, and give you the option to spend as much as you want. :-)

Re:Getting to be too many models, again?

[gman003]

Yes, I agree that Apple isn't back at '95 levels yet. But the point is that they're sliding in that direction. They're gaining more and more models that don't seem to serve a strong purpose.

While the iPad line does boil down to a few simple choices, the *naming* of that line does not in any way indicate it. The Google comparison was just a demonstration that Google is managing a more Jobs-like naming convention than Apple is.

Re:Getting to be too many models, again?

[Anonymous Coward]

And how one of the first things Jobs did when he returned was slash all of those, which put them back on the road to their current success?

There were times when he was still around that the iPod line exploded with many models that seemed to be chasing every conceivable size/price point/feature set.

Re:Getting to be too many models, again?

[Anonymous Coward]

The glut of 90s Macintosh also had a different case for practically each model they sold. Today Macbooks and iPods may come in different capacities, but for each product, they're largely identical otherwise, just more/less chips. I imagine supply chain issues have also improved greatly in the 20 years since.
Plus they also did cameras, printers, modems, and marketed some computer models in different retail outlets, each having their own model numbers. The LC 475/476/477 may have all been the same hardware, but had different software bundles for each specific retailer, and also each needed their own packaging & materials sets.

Re:Getting to be too many models, again?

[Anonymous Coward]

Having many models is not a problem if two conditions are met:
1. The product line must be logical enough that buyers get the feeling they have a real choice. Doesn't necessarily mean all combinations must be on sale, pairing a high-end videocard with a low-end CPU doesn't benefit buyers.
2. Production volumes should be high enough for all models. This is a bit trickier. Storage variants don't add high fixed costs per model.

Now, note that quite some of those models you list are previous-generation. Those are easy to position relative to the new products: "almost as good, but cheaper" and production volumes have already been achieved, so the marginal costs are fairly low. Other than that, the Apple portfolio is fairly straightforward and each product has sufficient sales volume. They're not suffering from unsold stock like Microsoft, after all. So, no real need to slash products - the old models will be phased out as demand drops and parts supplies run out.

Re:Getting to be too many models, again?

[dk20]

BB's finances were strong at one point as well.

Re: Getting to be too many models, again?

[RyuuzakiTetsuya]

The big question is why the hell do they still have the ipad 2 and the non retina mini at the same price?

Internally they're darn near the same. Minus the different display of course.

Re:Getting to be too many models, again?

[EvanED]

The models were randomly arranged and it was like "if you want the sunroof, you have to get the leather seats" with cars

Wat? To my "PC"- and desktop-byased eyes, Apple has those kinds of things all over the place:

1. Want a big monitor for your iMac? You need a more powerful processor too. Want a more powerful GPU? You need a bigger screen.
2. Want a 7200 RPM or >1TB hard drive or 1TB SSD in your iMac instead of 5400? You need a 27" screen instead of 21.5"
3. Want a 1TB HDD or an SSD instead of a 500MB HDD in your Mini? You need a Core i7 instead of Core i5
4. Want a quad-core CPU in your Macbook Pro instead of dual-core? You need a 15" screen instead of 13".
5. Want >256GB SSD in your Macbook Pro? You need a faster CPU too

Re:Getting to be too many models, again?

[Anonymous Coward]

What if I want a small powerful tablet? A very common situation because of portability needs. I need good power and resolution, but size constraints or portability needs prohibit getting a huge abomination of a pad. Or I just don't like the clunky brick which is 10" but want to be able to run demanding 3D games and apps. What does Google have then?

That's the point of the powerful, expensive Mini. It has a clear, differentiated market slot. There is nothing confusing about it at all.

Re:Getting to be too many models, again?

[Anonymous Coward]

I get that, but apple's market was too small to be splintered choatically like the mid 90s. Now apples a half-trillion-dollar (market-cap) company with global reach. A certain amount of market-divy when done smart (like ipad 2s for bulk education and commercial legacy use (they need the mounts and old connectors) isn't too much to worry about. Besides, it's a lot clearer than the old days. Remember the centro line? -gawd.

Re:Getting to be too many models, again?

[hazydave]

Actually, with phones, Apple went directly from one tier to three-tier with the iPhone 4S... they offered the iPhone 4 at the $99 point and the iPhone 3GS at the $0 point. It was just that, since the iPhone 3GS was only for AT&T (GSM, and before T-Mo got involved), they didn't have that on Verizon or Sprint.

They are certainly upping the SKUs at a high rate: two iPhone 4S, five iPhones 5c, and nine iPhones 5s. But they have finally acknowledged, and rightly so, that the iPhone is a luxury item, and that pretty much makes it a fashion item. So while one size still apparently almost fits all, once finish clearly does not. Most other phone makers are not doing the "fashion statement" thing.... Nokia a bit, I guess, with their similar color selection.

And of course, the 5c isn't new, it's just the iPhone 5 cost reduced and put in a plastic case. This is what Apple's been doing, only now they're making more money at it and making it seem new. Targeting a different demographic than the high-end user. My college-age kids are both pushing for iPhones (where did I go wrong) for Christmas... the boy (first year Pharmacy school) wants the 5s, "because the new OS runs like crap on older models", the girl (second year Bio/Nursing) wants a 5c, "because they have pink".

Re: Getting to be too many models, again?

[hazydave]

Apple's always had a little diversification in their Mac line... and generally much less than any major competitor. Today they're at an all-time low I think, far as models go, at least since laptops were possible. They nixed the 17" laptops, all laptops are SSD/no-optical now, etc. They still really doing just one iPhone per year... no good reason to stop making the old one if it's still selling. Contrast that to Samsung, who seems to have one new smartphone model per month. Same with tablets.

Apple's one-size-fits-all approach was good when they were the only one doing the job, and fine when they were the only ones doing the job well. But with other vendors building better devices, taking more risks, thus more innovation, they do at some point have to compete. Just being a fashion house isn't going to be enough forever. They're good at making each year's device "about twice as fast" as last year's... particularly when it comes to gaming. But that's about the only thing you can count on. Not enough for many users, who see larger screens, new I/O devices, built-in wacom digitizers, etc.

That's not to suggest Apple should make a radical change to the iPhone or iPad... and that's also not what anyone who's innovating does today. Rather, they try different things. So Samsung made a fairly predictable Galaxy S4, but they also followed it up with a few variations... a serious camera phone (Galaxy Zoom), the giant-screen S4, etc. They also pretty much created the "phablet" market, and made that work by adding the wacom, so a large phone screen could actually deliver tablet capabilities, despite your fingers still being the size they were last year. Apple needs to try some variations, try something new. They ultimately will have to something, whether that's experimenting on their own or copying the other guys. But I don't think they survive, not at their current "leader of the pack" levels anyway, if it's just about taking the best of Samsung or Motorola or HTC from this year into next year's devices.

Re:Getting to be too many models, again?

[hazydave]

5c is just the 5 in a new case. It's supposed to appeal to a different market than the 5/5s did, expanding the reach of the iPhone a bit, perhaps. We'll see. It's hardly any risk, the design was paid for long ago, this is just packaging it a little cheaper. If it doesn't work, don't expect a colorful 5s-remake next year.

Re:Getting to be too many models, again?

[hazydave]

Google introduced a small, powerful tablet last year: the Nexus 7. Apple introduced a less small, less powerful tablet last year: the iPad Mini. Sure, the new one is better, both of them. It has yet to be shown how the dual-core Mini compares in performance to the four-core Nexus 7.

I'm currently using a plenty fast Samsung Note 8.0... small enough, powerful enough for anything I'm currently doing on tablets. That's what really matters. Markedly better than the recently-dropped Asus Transformer that preceded it. And the real win on a small tablet is the "S-Pen", the wacom-style digitizer. Far more accuracy on-screen than a finger on a 10" tablet, so you're not suffering at all with the smaller screen, at least for interactive use. A bit small for reading my guitar music, but this may only be temporary, or maybe just for around the office. Best device ever for note-taking.

iPad 2? Why?

[Cinder6]

It's somewhat baffling that anyone these days would want an iPad 2. The Mini outstrips it in every area but screen size, at the same price. I would also imagine that continuing to support it is obnoxious for developers.

Anyway, I was planning on buying the iPad Air, but the Mini is looking a lot more tempting, given that the only difference anymore is screen size. I just wish one of them had Touch ID.

Re:iPad 2? Why?

[itsdapead]

It's somewhat baffling that anyone these days would want an iPad 2. The Mini outstrips it in every area but screen size, at the same price. I would also imagine that continuing to support it is obnoxious for developers.

I'm guessing that they've got a niche market for it that needs the screen size but doesn't want to pay for retina displays - probably schools.

Re:iPad 2? Why?

[AmiMoJo]

Many people prefer a 7" tablet because it's about the right size to hold in one hand for long periods.

Re:iPad 2? Why?

[Anonymous Coward]

Many people prefer a 7" tablet because it's about the right size to hold in one hand for long periods.

[Does the Spock eyebrow thing]

Re:iPad 2? Why?

[Anonymous Coward]

It's somewhat baffling that anyone these days would want an iPad 2. The Mini outstrips it in every area but screen size, at the same price.

I think you could eliminate your first sentence by reading your second sentence. I can't think of any situation in which I'd want to buy a Mini if regular iPads are available. If it's not pocket-sized and it's not (15"+) laptop-sized, I want the largest screen that conveniently fits in my backpack -- i.e., around the size of a sheet of paper.

Re:iPad 2? Why?

[Teckla]

It's somewhat baffling that anyone these days would want an iPad 2. The Mini outstrips it in every area but screen size, at the same price.

Eventually, you'll know why some people might choose the larger but lower spec iPad 2 over the iPad mini.

You'll also learn why people like the zoom button on browsers, why people like smartphones with large screens, etc.

Everyone figures it out eventually...

Re:iPad 2? Why?

[Anonymous Coward]

School contracts, Point of Sale usage, etc.

Re:iPad 2? Why?

[Cinder6]

I totally understand the appeal of a larger screen. My point was that, as an end-user, I can't foresee a scenario where I would opt for the iPad 2 over the Mini or the Air. If vision was an issue, I would still pay $100 more for the Air. Beyond the far better screen, it is also guaranteed to be supported longer than what is now a two-year-old device. Yes, it costs $100 more, but if $100 hurts that much, I probably shouldn't buy an iPad.

Everyone's mileage will vary, of course. That's just the way I see it.

Re:iPad 2? Why?

[Anonymous Coward]

I suspect many developers don't really develop for hardware models, but for the OS version.
I have a number of apps that will install on my 1st gen iPhone, but have absolutely no business running there being excruciatingly slow. And other apps that seem to be no more than a basic reference (probably just a an internal database and a display interface, surely my iPhone could handle,) but "requires" iOS6, not to mention a lot of "retro" styled games with very simplistic graphics.

Re:iPad 2? Why?

[Just Some Guy]

A lot of people have kids, and that's $100 less for something that'll probably be dropped on the tile floor once or twice.

Re:iPad 2? Why?

[Anonymous Coward]

As someone who owns both a mini and a regular iPad, they each have situations where they're better than the other. The larger iPad is much better for watching streaming video. It's the one I use for Netflix, HBO: Go and other video streaming. The Mini is much better for extended web browsing where I'm interacting with it with one hand and holding it with the other...the heavier iPad causes arm fatigue. I use both for email, but I prefer the mini for reading longer emails and sending shorter emails and the regular iPad for reading shorter emails and sending longer ones. For most games, I prefer the mini, but there are a few that I prefer on the larger screen.

I think both have their place, though I imagine a lighter-weight iPad with a larger screen would convince me to use that over the mini most of the time.

FWIW...before people jump on me for owning two iPads...I didn't pay for either. The first was a gift and the second I received as a prize for winning a hack-a-thon.

Re:iPad 2? Why?

[Anonymous Coward]

I can touchtype on my iPad 2 in landscape mode. I'm not yet convinced that I can do that on an iPad mini.

So, there's your market.

I think the real motivation is that they still have a fair inventory of iPad 2's. I think you will find no more are being made, and Apple is just selling it's old stock while it can. Same with the iPhone 4S.

Re:iPad 2? Why?

[Anonymous Coward]

The iPad 2 has better battery life (in practice if not by specification), charges faster (smaller battery, same charger), and runs cooler.

Re:iPad 2? Why?

[Anonymous Coward]

Bulk school sales, commercial use that need the old form-factor and USB plug.

Re:$2600 to get a laptop with better then Intel vi

[SighKoPath]

Well, Intel's Iris Pro reportedly has performance similar to the nVIDIA GT 640M, with significantly lower power consumption. It's far better than Intel's previous integrated graphics offerings.

Can we please get a reasonabley priced laptop

[Anonymous Coward]

With more than 1366x768 resolution. Fuck laptops suck.
I don't want an I7 to get the pixels. I'm not playing games. I just want text to look nice while I'm coding.

Re:Can we please get a reasonabley priced laptop

[suso]

With more than 1366x768 resolution. Fuck laptops suck.
I don't want an I7 to get the pixels. I'm not playing games. I just want text to look nice while I'm coding.

You are clearly Apple's target market. They should listen to you.

Re:Can we please get a reasonabley priced laptop

[wonkey_monkey]

Can we please get a reasonabley priced laptop with more than 1366x768 resolution.

If by "reasonably priced" you mean "for the same price as a 1366x768 laptop" then no, of course not. More pixels cost more. They are also not what your average user is bothered about, so manufacturers won't waste money by putting high-res screens on otherwise budget laptops.

Life's not fair. Get over it.

Re:A shot at other OS, computer *and* device maker

[Anonymous Coward]

Yeah, but it comes with Windows.

Re:A shot at other OS, computer *and* device maker

[AmiMoJo]

Ahem, I think you will find Google has been doing this for years. Free (as in beer and open source) OS upgrades for Nexus devices and free productivity apps for all platforms.

Re:A shot at other OS, computer *and* device maker

[Anonymous Coward]

Not useful for YOU. For those million of happy OSX users with great hardware... it's a non-issue for us. Go iHate somewhere else.

Re:A shot at other OS, computer *and* device maker

[Anonymous Coward]

You're an idiot if you think nobody's seen these selective 'comparisons' before. Sure, you might have an aluminum case and the same processor, but it either weighs another three pounds or has a cheaper display/video card. Apple has comparable pricing when you compare comparable products from other manufacturers. They don't have anything in the cheap $400 range because they don't make cheap.

Re:A shot at other OS, computer *and* device maker

[NatasRevol]

If you think that's all a Mac is, you're the idiot.

Start by adding SSD storage, *all* the connections, magsafe power cord.

Re:A shot at other OS, computer *and* device maker

[Anonymous Coward]

I think those were only free with "Every new purchase of Mac or iPhone"

Not even a tiny bit irrelevant

[SuperKendall]

For consumer use, the advances in technology are largely irrelevant at this point.

Actually, the motion coprocessor alone is a huge boost for the millions of people that already use device like the Nike FuelBand, or FitBitâ¦

And the 64-bit advancement has very real performance gains in software which will also be noticed in many applications.

The next advance is going to be battery life that lasts for weeks or months, and no one has that yet.

It's going to be a long time before we see weeks⦠but Apple is focusing on battery life far more than any other company, with a lot of aspects of iOS7 made to improve just that (and again the motion coprocessor comes into play by making motion sensing one sensor that doesn't drain the battery additionally with use).

Re:Not even a tiny bit irrelevant

[AmiMoJo]

Actually, the motion coprocessor alone is a huge boost for the millions of people that already use device like the Nike FuelBand, or FitBitæ

Not really. Aside from the obvious fact that they already have those devices so don't need anything to replace them, the iPhone isn't water/sweat/dustproof or even particularly robust. It makes sense to get a cheaper and more robust sensor to take with you when you are being active.

The iPhone can't replace all the functionality of modern sports sensors anyway, e.g. heart rate monitoring, so it isn't really a replacement at all. In this context the motion co-processor is a glorified pedometer.

As it happens some Android devices have had something pretty similar for years anyway. My GS3 has an octa-core CPU, and four of those cores are ultra low power ones designed for monitoring sensors. Apple's coprocessor is probably a bit lower power, but at the cost of being less flexible.

Re:Not even a tiny bit irrelevant

[Anonymous Coward]

My 4gs has improved battery life under *my* use conditions with iOS

Re:Not even a tiny bit irrelevant

[SuperKendall]

Not really. Aside from the obvious fact that they already have those devices so don't need anything to replace them

It's always better to have one less thing, and why MP3 sales declined with the rise of smart-phones. No one wants two devices if you can have one.

the iPhone isn't water/sweat/dustproof or even particularly robust.

It's anything proof with the right case, which in case you hadn't noticed the iPhone has in droves. And for many uses like counting steps (what most care about) it works just fine in a pocket or your purse.

The iPhone can't replace all the functionality of modern sports sensors anyway, e.g. heart rate monitoring

For a few things like that there are compact external BTLE sensors. So it's still a replacement in that you have some things you record more infrequently as a smaller device.

As it happens some Android devices have had something pretty similar for years anyway. My GS3 has an octa-core CPU, and four of those cores are ultra low power ones designed for monitoring sensors.

And as it happened it doesn't matter what hardware you have is developers cannot code for it. That's also why BTLE on Android sucks even though hardware has been shipping with BTLE support for over a year.

Re:Not even a tiny bit irrelevant

[Anonymous Coward]

No one wants two devices if you can have one.

Oh bullshit! This is the exact opposite argument made by Apple advocates when it comes to the Surface Pro. "Oh if I want all those features I can just get a Macbook Air and an iPad".

Re:A shot at other OS, computer *and* device maker

[EvanED]

They don't have anything in the cheap $400 range because they don't make cheap.

They don't have anything (IMO) for the enthusiast desktop user. The iMacs are inappropriate for a few reasons, and Mac Pros are too expensive.I'd consider them for a laptop purchase, but in the desktop space they don't have anything that's remotely reasonable.

Re:A shot at other OS, computer *and* device maker

[Anonymous Coward]

How about this...

Bought several desktops recently for my kids.
I reformatted them and installed Ubuntu which comes with LibreOffice (actually a pretty decent package).

hardware cost = ~$600 each
Software cost = $0

Vendor lock-in = NONE

Re:A shot at other OS, computer *and* device maker

[Anonymous Coward]

Didn't Apple and others continually sue Microsoft for doing this for years?

Re:A shot at other OS, computer *and* device maker

[real-modo]

Then you're an idiot and need to learn how pricing works....i5, 8gb ram, aluminum case pc laptop on newegg RIGHT NOW, $400. Comes with windows, and then add office for $140 more? Ohhh....soooo much more $ than a Mac!!

Nine-hour battery life with reasonable weight? A battery that lasts five years with only 30% decrease in capacity?

Reasonably well color-calibrated screen pretty much covering sRGB, with reasonable sharpness, viewing angles and brightness, which doesn't wobble or develop faults in a couple of years?

Accurate, pleasant-to-use trackpad?

Backlit keyboard, typing on which isn't uncomfortable, annoying, or error-prone? And which doesn't lose key caps when you sneeze or develop unresponsive keys?

Good durability? Good resale value?

Windows laptops with these features, the features that make the difference between resenting your tool and enjoying using it and owning it, do exist. Granted.

But every time I've looked for one in the last four years, in the place where I live, matching a Macbook Pro in the Windows space seems to cost between 50% and 200% more. And no Windows laptops match MBPs on resale.

I don't think Mac users are the idiots. I think I am, for refusing to buy a good tool at a fair price.

Re:A shot at other OS, computer *and* device maker

[Anonymous Coward]

Correct me if i am mistaken, but didn't a number of companies offer SSD laptops long before Apple?

I took my old asus and threw one in (See, its standardized and i was able to do this myself by removing 6 clearly labeled screws).

Drastically reduced boot times and boosted battery life too.

Re:A shot at other OS, computer *and* device maker

[BronsCon]

All the connections? So... NFC? Honestly, that's all that's lacking from my MBP; my phone has it, my PC ultrabook has it and, if my MBP had it, I'd never have to manually pair my Zik headphones.

Re:iPad 2 because contracts, duh

[Anonymous Coward]

It's somewhat baffling that anyone these days would want an iPad 2.

It's not baffling and it's not about "want." Apple has signed a lot of contracts with school systems for large volume, fixed price delivery of iPads and most likely those contracts included qualifiers that Apple must deliver products which are "commercially available" at the time of delivery. Discontinuing the iPad 2 would probably require Apple to deliver the newer products which have a lower profit margin and a higher consumer demand.

Those are fairly common terms to put in when you're writing long term volume purchase agreements.

And now, without the marketing bollocks

[wonkey_monkey]

which has a 9.7" Retina display

Let me just pass that through my "marketing bullshit" remover:

which has a 9.7" display

Re:And now, without the marketing bollocks

[Anonymous Coward]

Keo dan da

Re:A shot at other OS, computer *and* device maker

[Anonymous Coward]

Too bad your kids are embarrassed to let their friends know their dad's a skinflint.

Re:A shot at other OS, computer *and* device maker

[jedidiah]

> They don't have anything in the cheap $400 range because they don't make cheap.

Sure they do. They just charge more for it.

The fact that PC alternatives are less aesthetically appealing is really not a feature. It's something that most people don't really care about. It's certainly not something they are willing to PAY for.

The vast bulk of the market has already turned it's back on this notion of "design". Once you take that away, Apple is nothing special at all.

A 5 year old craptacular Dell can run circles around a current Mac because it's maintainable and east to tweak without spending a lot of money.

Re:A shot at other OS, computer *and* device maker

[MightyYar]

I love how people don't price in size, weight, or battery life. Those things are free, right?

Re:A shot at other OS, computer *and* device maker

[jedidiah]

Been there. Did that. Quickly got over it...

Don't buy into the propaganda anymore.

Re:A shot at other OS, computer *and* device maker

[NatasRevol]

Except that wasn't included in his price.

Thanks for making my point.

Re:A shot at other OS, computer *and* device maker

[jedidiah]

> Too bad your kids are embarrassed to let their friends know their dad's a skinflint.

Actually, $600 pays for a very respectable desktop if you aren't stuck on overpriced consumer labels.

The Ubuntu install probably didn't save any money because the hardware likely already came with Microsoft bundleware anyways.

Re:A shot at other OS, computer *and* device maker

[NatasRevol]

Fine, as long as you include Thunderbolt 2 as well.

Also, NFC for headphones? WTF?

Re:A shot at other OS, computer *and* device maker

[AmiMoJo]

Okay, the cheap laptops are not in the same league, but there are comparable Windows ultrabooks with excellent calibrated displays, similar specs, battery life etc. NEC's LaVie series, some ASUS and Samsung models, and of course Sony.

Apple laptops are not magic, or particularly good value. They are similar to the competition, it's just that no-one else has the Reality Distortion Field that makes them seem so much better.

Re:A shot at other OS, computer *and* device maker

[EvanED]

I love how people don't price in size, weight, or battery life. Those things are free, right?

They aren't free, but for lots of people they're less expensive than money.

Re:A shot at other OS, computer *and* device maker

[Anonymous Coward]

I know people that use them with Windows almost exclusively, they are a great high-end laptop, and there's no Windows laptop maker that consistently releases good products, and further, product names get diluted as they establish a reputation. It's a lot easier to buy from Apple, than read review after review to get a machine that comes with Windows.

Re:A shot at other OS, computer *and* device maker

[Anonymous Coward]

Yeah, I have a $400 laptop with Windows 8. It's fine, and a good value, but it's decidedly low end. A nice Windows laptop is going to run you $1300-1700, just like the Apple stuff.

Particularly the Mac Pro

[unixisc]

I am particularly impressed by the Mac Pro. They've totally overhauled a PC design and come out w/ a new tower that is optimally designed w/ the best of components. Finally a Mac worth the price!

Re:Particularly the Mac Pro

[fyngyrz]

Optimally designed? They went from a machine that could run eight monitors to one that can, as near as we can tell from the marketing materials, do three; one where all your hardware was safe in a strong case to one that's going to require desk-turds all over the place; one where the basic system is barely functional due to minimal storage on board, as compared to the previous incarnation which could carry multiple terabytes in various formats.

I waited a LONG time for a new Mac Pro, and now it looks like the previous generation was by far the best. Near as I can tell, the engineers were drunk when they came up with this weird new design. The idea of scattering more hardware all over my desk is a complete non-starter for several reasons, and the machine can't even do what the previous generation could. Pffft.

Re:Particularly the Mac Pro

[unixisc]

How many people work w/ more than 3 monitors? Also, in this case, you have just one tower that has all the components cooled by a single cooling unit, so that there are no components inadequately cooled as a result. As far as the storage goes, it has 256GB of PCIe SSD storage on board, but if one needs more, one could attach a 2TB drive via USB.

Re:Particularly the Mac Pro

[Anonymous Coward]

It can do six, and right out if the box no less. Three is the max number of high-bandwidth *4k* displays.

Re:Particularly the Mac Pro

[Plumpaquatsch]

Optimally designed? They went from a machine that could run eight monitors to one that can, as near as we can tell from the marketing materials, do three;

http://www.apple.com/mac-pro/specs/ - "Connect up to ... Six Thunderbolt displays"

And that's "out-of-the-box", without any extra graphics cards connected via Thunderbolt.

Re:A shot at other OS, computer *and* device maker

[BlackPignouf]

I agree with what you say.
I just want to add that the keyboard looks good, but is pretty much unusable without learning unusual shortcuts for some characters.

Re:A shot at other OS, computer *and* device maker

[the_B0fh]

Yet another person who thinks throwing a bunch of substandard crap together in a box makes it equivalent to a nicely designed machine. When you show me a box that have similar hardware, thermal, weight, battery life, PCIe flash, screen resolution, etc characteristics for that price, then we can start talking.

A $400 laptop is essentially netbook territory with spinning rust. You expect that to have the same performance as a macbook pro?

*SERIOUSLY?!*

Re:A shot at other OS, computer *and* device maker

[Hamsterdan]

Amen to that... A small minitower between the Mini and the Pro is what's missing from their lineup.

Re:A shot at other OS, computer *and* device maker

[the_B0fh]

And no PCIe flash, right? Things like that actually cost money.

Not that a $600 is a bad computer. I have a hackintosh that was in the $450 range. But it doesn't compare to my macbook retina or my macmini.

Re:A shot at other OS, computer *and* device maker

[Anonymous Coward]

Sony Xperia tablets. Compare the stats, then pat yourself on the back for making the right decision.

Re:iPad 2 because contracts, duh

[Cinder6]

I wasn't aware of contracts like this. Thanks.

Ignoring reality

[SuperKendall]

64 bit - better performance, but it's still fewer cores and lower performance than high end Android devices.

Yet in benchmarks the 5s does better than those systems.

Full-time motion chip - Lower power version of what we already have

Lower power version also of what the iPhone already had. Being able to be run 24x7 makes a huge difference in usability. Lower power is always an important factor.

On the other hand the screen is still SD, not even 720p.

Which is why they make iPads. Perhaps you have heard of them?

No NFC, which has actual practical uses like sharing, tags and payments.

None of which I have ever seen anyone use, and I can do any of those things with iOS that does not include NFC support. NFC support is dead on the vine since any possible use can be also done with BTLE or something like Passbook (which people do actually use in the millions).

Not waterproof or ruggedized.

With the iPhone you have the choice to make it so after purchase with a huge variety of cases. Why wants a phone that is ruggedized to carry around all the time? I prefer to slip on a protective case when boing or hiking then shed it when done.

No 1080p video output or MirrorLink support.

Airplay???? Perhaps you have NOT heard of it.

I have not even started on the software.

Right, because software terminates your argument instantly. iOS first is still the approach just about all startups take.

That's why those OUT OF TOUCH WITH REALITY say it's mid-range

FTFY.

Re:Ignoring reality

[AmiMoJo]

Lower power version also of what the iPhone already had. Being able to be run 24x7 makes a huge difference in usability. Lower power is always an important factor.

People keep saying that but never provide any actual examples of applications for it. As I already pointed out it is a poor substitute for a proper sport/health sensor, so what is the important factor you speak of?

On the other hand the screen is still SD, not even 720p.

Which is why they make iPads. Perhaps you have heard of them?

A tablet is not a phone. I'm not sure why you even mention it since we are discussion phones. Okay, so no-one does 4k phones, just buy a TV, perhaps you have heard of them?

None of which I have ever seen anyone use

Ah, okay, your personal experience is what we will go by then. Let's ignore the fact that so many manufacturers have added this functionality and supported it with applications. I use it a lot, for setting my phone to car more or office mode, and for sharing stuff, but for some reason I don't count.

With the iPhone you have the choice to make it so after purchase with a huge variety of cases.

What you meant to say is that you can turn it into a brick with a chunky waterproof protective case, just in case you happen to ever drop it or get it wet.

Airplay???

Compressed shit. Other phones do 1080p uncompressed video and audio. MHL adapters are extremely cheap, Apple's 720p compresses rubbish is extremely expensive.

Re:Ignoring reality

[Anonymous Coward]

when you italicize everything and don't use quote tags, It appears that you're having a crazy argument with yourself.

Re:Ignoring reality

[Anonymous Coward]

Airplay???? Perhaps you have NOT heard of it.

Just another form of vendor lock-in using a proprietary technology instead of improving open ones. That's Apple's modus operandi, take what you can from the free software community but don't give anything tangibly useful back.

Re:A shot at other OS, computer *and* device maker

[Anonymous Coward]

The thing that always gets forgotten whenever some PC troll trots out the comparable laptop is the resale aspect. The PC may have exactly the same specs and be slightly cheaper right now, but 1-2 years from now, the cheapest new Mac will still be around $1k, so the mac will still easily fetch $800-$900. Meanwhile, a new bottom-of-the-line PC will have come out for $250 with comparable specs rendering the PC almost worthless to resell.

Apple doesn't serve the sub-$1k market and that protects new, higher-end purchases from being cannibalized even 2-4 years out. I tend to buy a new MBP every 3 years and have always been able to sell my 3-year-old model for $600 or more. PC owners would be lucky to get $100 for their 3-year-old machines. If you consider interest, that means a Mac can be over $400 more expensive up front to have an equivalent TCO. Most of the time, the "Apple Tax" is a bit under that.

Re:A shot at other OS, computer *and* device maker

[farble1670]

link please.

iPad is ten hours+

[SuperKendall]

manufacturers always exaggerate battery life it's safe to assume 8 hours is reasonable for the iPad Air as well

That's not at all reasonable, since every iPad to date in every review has met the stated battery life under real conditions (browsing, movies, etc).

So the iPad Air gets 10 (or more) hours per charge.

Re:A shot at other OS, computer *and* device maker

[spire3661]

For Bluetooth headphones, why not? I use an NFC sticker on the back of my PS3 controller to pair with my my Nexus 7.

SSD is PCIe SSD, not SATA

[SuperKendall]

Similarly priced machines are coming with 512GB of more now.

Is that for a SATA SSD drive? Or the faster PCIe SSD as the Mac Pro has?

Re:SSD is PCIe SSD, not SATA

[AmiMoJo]

Sorry, you fell for the oldest trick in the book. PCIe drives don't cost any more than SATA drives, at least not to the manufacturers or if they are soldered to the mobo like in many laptops. The memory chips are the same, just a different but similarly priced controller chip.

You thought that somehow the PCIe SSD was more expensive because it is faster, but it's the same cost. FWIW my NEC laptop does have 512GB of PCI-e SSD storage soldered to the mobo, and the upgrade from 256GB is about 3/5 the price that Apple charges.

Re:A shot at other OS, computer *and* device maker

[Anonymous Coward]

But every time I've looked for one in the last four years, in the place where I live, matching a Macbook Pro in the Windows space seems to cost between 50% and 200% more. And no Windows laptops match MBPs on resale.

Mac hardware has no more resale than PC hardware. The only things that don't depreciate as fast are the iLogo and the OSX license. I too would like ot buy a Mac once in a while, to run Windows on, but each time they shoot themselves in the foot with some idiotic artificial price segregation. Old Intel integrated graphics, ram limited, non-removable battery/HD, locked bootloaders, etc.

At least the Surface has a damn fine wacom cintiq effectively built in to make the pricepoint fair, if higher than the average bear is willing to pay.

Re:A shot at other OS, computer *and* device maker

[farble1670]

Apple laptops are not magic

but they are unix, and unlike linux, everything just works out of the box. for some of us, it's worth paying more to not have to dink around for hours on the weekend to hopefully get things running smoothly.

macs are overpriced, but not as much as some folks say. consider this MBP,
http://store.apple.com/us/buy-mac/macbook-pro

it's $1800 with no upgrades.

the most comparable thing i can find at dell.com is this,
http://www.dell.com/us/p/xps-12-9q33/pd?oc=dncwi16b&model_id=xps-12-9q33

it's $600 less, but it has 1/2 the memory, worse graphics, a slightly smaller display and lesser res, and a 128GB SSD vs. a next-gen 512GB SSD. also, it runs windows, not a unix-based OS.

how about toshiba?
http://www.toshiba.com/us/computers/laptops/kira/kirabook13/KIRAbook13-i5-touch

$300 less, but has last-gen graphics, last-gen core processor, and a last-gen SSD that's 1/2 the size. it does have a touchscreen where the MPB does not.

Re:A shot at other OS, computer *and* device maker

[ndrw]

And the kids get to play Minecraft on a legitimately performing computer, so they don't complain, right? :)

ipad air ipad + air

[emptybody]

i yelled outloud when i heard the name.
then i saw that it is not the dual screen clamshell combination iPad AirBook i was looking for.
some day I will have my dual touch screen system with a display for the keyboard.
but alas. not today.

Re:A shot at other OS, computer *and* device maker

[dk20]

Seriously that is your comment, that i am cheap?
I guess its a good use of your time and really contributed to the thread.

Re:A shot at other OS, computer *and* device maker

[perpenso]

Ahem, I think you will find Google has been doing this for years. Free (as in beer and open source) OS upgrades for Nexus devices and free productivity apps for all platforms.

However the Nexus devices are a minority player in the Android market. The bulk of the Android devices are not so fortunate. Plus the Google productivity apps require buying into Google's cloud strategy. Apple only makes their cloud strategy an option, you are still free to store files locally on the device.

online upgrades have lower costs

[peter303]

In the days before broadband, you uploaded via purchased CDs. There was some cost in manufacturing and distributing those CDs. Online is substantially cheaper. I guess it took the mobile model to prove this.

Re:$2600 to get a laptop with better then Intel vi

[Anonymous Coward]

Does it let you enable antialiasing on existing games through the control panel? No? Then it can eat a dick.

Re:A shot at other OS, computer *and* device maker

[Aranykai]

It was just last year that Sony was still shipping their 15" laptops with 1366x768 displays by default. You can get laptops for less than $600, but you get what you pay for.

Re:$2600 to get a laptop with better then Intel vi

[Anonymous Coward]

Having used it, in practice it's pretty miserable no matter what any benchmark shows.

Re:A shot at other OS, computer *and* device maker

[Anonymous Coward]

Wrong. An ultra book won't hold value lie a Mac. I sell used macs after a year for 75-85% purchase price. PC depreciates 50% in a month. So my Mac costs 20% of the actual cost, and I get a new one each year. 20% of a Mac price = pc price, without all the PC compromises. Anyone who thinks a PC is "just as good" as a Mac, either has never run a Mac, or LIKES fiddling with registries, dlls, stray etc.

And before you say you have to do that on a Mac....no you don't. Don't increase the look of ignorance you already have.

Re:A shot at other OS, computer *and* device maker

[MightyYar]

Fair enough, but the AC was calling someone an idiot for having the audacity to insist on a cost comparison based on similar hardware.

Re:A shot at other OS, computer *and* device maker

[Anonymous Coward]

Please don't lie, jedidiah. You've been (badly) trolling Apple users for decades, all the way back to the Usenet days.

There are more factors than that

[aiadot]

According to the Japanese sony website, the battery lasts between 8 to 10 hours depending on what you're doing(8h for web browsing, 10h for video, 110h for music).
There are also other factors that heavily influence the weight and size of what you said. Mainly connectors: The Z has microUSB, SD card, HDMI and the usual 4-pin stereo jack. If you want to used most of these on an iPad you gotta use a adapter.
There are other features as well such as being water and dust proof, having much better cameras and having NFC.
And to be honest the difference in resolution is minimal. I think the difference between the screens of a 1080p phone, like the Xperia Z, versus the iPhone 5S retina is more noticeable. However I do admit the iPad screen is still better, not because of the barely higher resolution but, because it uses IPS over the TFT on the Z.

Said all that, lets be honest here for a moment. ALMOST nobody cares about these details. In the end the company with the better salesmanship will be the one with the better sales. Pretty damn sure that is Apple.

Just for setup

[Anonymous Coward]

So go find someone who has a Mac and borrow it for five minutes. (Heck, you could go to an Apple retail store, but then you'd have to enter your sign-up info into a store computer and then clean up.)

Re:ipad air ipad + air

[Anonymous Coward]

Personally I'm waiting for the iPad that will bundle a proper keyboard with the tablet to make it easier to type out of the box. Apple is the only company that would be able to come up with an amazing way of combining the keyboard with the case so that the two work seamlessly together. The nice thing would also be that the screen would be protected by default again out of the box without having to buy a case with a keyboard, and they could bundle a smaller touchable area on the keyboard so that you don't always have to lift your arm to select things on the main screen. This would be an amazing innovation that only Apple could really deliver the way you would expect.

Re:A shot at other OS, computer *and* device maker

[schnell]

The vast bulk of the market has already turned it's back on this notion of "design". Once you take that away, Apple is nothing special at all.

I promised myself a long time ago to stop replying in Slashdot Apple fanboy/troll wars, but this one really got me.

Having used all modern OSes quite a bit, I can tell you plainly that if you think Apple is about fancy hardware cases and rounded corners, you don't get it. Please do not make comparisons to Windows commodity PCs solely based on hardware, because that's not what Apple is about on the desktop. Unlike almost anyone else in the industry, Apple is a software company that makes their money with hardware.

Their goal is to sell you a high-margin, high-end piece of hardware that may not be differentiated based on hardware, but is differentiated based on shipping with a UNIX-based OS that has a slick and efficient UI; integrated cloud sharing and automatic backups; bundled office apps that can match or beat MS Office/LibreOffice; iLife apps (iMovie, iPhoto, Garage Band) that have so serious free competition; and an integrated entertainment ecosystem (iTunes) that nobody else but Amazon comes close to (sorry, Google Play is nowhere near competitive for a desktop user). "I can get the equivalent hardware for cheaper with Windows or Ubuntu" is a false argument, because it's the software that makes a Mac special. I know there are "lots" of people who buy Macs and install a different OS on them, but I think that's a Slashdot-centric view of "lots" - a.k.a. "lots of people buy Raspberry Pis."

YMMV as to what that software differentiation is worth, but for those who buy Macs, the answer is clearly "it's worth a lot and still a bargain."

Re:A shot at other OS, computer *and* device maker

[swell]

> R&D

It's simple. Were it not for Apple and a very few other companies that do research, who take chances, who bet their lives that you want to move ahead, we would be using DOS.

R&D costs money. Dell and HP won't invest there; their money goes for marketing. Apple does real R&D and I am happy to support that.

Additionally, some foreign companies are investing increasingly in R&D. Apple (and Qualcomm, a few others) may be the only viable American company that remains.

Give your money to those who innovate, not to mass junk producers.

Re:A shot at other OS, computer *and* device maker

[pherthyl]

>> Apple laptops are not magic, or particularly good value.

Two things that I like about Apple laptops that are unmatched:
1. Trackpad is just first class. I have never seen any windows machine with a trackpad so smooth and accurate. Also the gestures in the OS are actually useful to the point where I prefer using the trackpad over a mouse for most applications (not image editing).
2. Magnetic power adapter. This is just killer compared to the stupid barrel connectors everyone else has. I would pay an extra $100 just for that feature.

Re:A shot at other OS, computer *and* device maker

[real-modo]

Okay, the cheap laptops are not in the same league, but there are comparable Windows ultrabooks with excellent calibrated displays, similar specs, battery life etc. NEC's LaVie series, some ASUS and Samsung models, and of course Sony.

Apple laptops are not magic, or particularly good value. They are similar to the competition, it's just that no-one else has the Reality Distortion Field that makes them seem so much better.

NECs are hard to come by, here. For the good reason that some years back, they seemed to have terrible reliability. Rickety USB ports and power connectors, and loosely attached key caps. Display panels that went bung after a few months. Drivers that didn't drive, and caused problems with other software. All for premium dollars.

Somehow, no-one wants to distribute NEC, now. Reputation - years in the making, two bad products in the losing. For decades.

Asus, Samsung - where I live, models competitive to MBPs in most respects cost a third more than the Macs. Those with "excellent displays" used to cost at least twice as much, although in recent months the message from AnandTech and others seems to have started sinking in. I have my doubts about the durability of Asus frames and hinges, and the reliability of Samsung keyboards and ports, though... Time will tell.

Can't hear the issue

[Neo-Rio-101]

That's MOOT, not mute

Re:A shot at other OS, computer *and* device maker

[real-modo]

how about toshiba?
http://www.toshiba.com/us/computers/laptops/kira/kirabook13/KIRAbook13-i5-touch

$300 less, but has last-gen graphics, last-gen core processor, and a last-gen SSD that's 1/2 the size. it does have a touchscreen where the MPB does not.

Kirabook reviews: Makes an annoying noise under load, fan grille on the bottom (which makes it a tabletop), and reproduces the main flaw in the MBP keyboard - half-height arrow keys. Apparently a very good screen, although I couldn't find any charts showing color accuracy or sharpness.

Still costs 20% more than the equivalent MBP, where I live. Well, that's down from 50% more. Perhaps PC manufacturers are starting to realise why their stuff isn't selling.

Thanks for drawing it to my attention, though.

Re:A shot at other OS, computer *and* device maker

[real-modo]

Learning new keyboard shortcuts doesn't bother me very much, for some reason. (Maybe I stick a new star on my mental achievement chart. ;-) )

Loud or whiny fans and bad trackpads, though.... Isn't it a good thing for manufacturers that people are different? ;-)

Re:A shot at other OS, computer *and* device maker

[real-modo]

Mac hardware has no more resale than PC hardware.

Not true here. People consistently pay more for used Macs than they do for higher-spec PC hardware of the same age and condition. Panasonic toughbooks--the real ones--are the one and only exception to this. But that's a market Panasonic has to itself, pretty much.

Value is what people are willing to pay. Reputation may be the cause, sure. But the reality is that the five-year cost of owning a MBP is reduced (compared to the counterfactual of an identically priced Not-a-Mac) because of its higher residual value.

Re:A shot at other OS, computer *and* device maker

[Anonymous Coward]

• Nine-hour battery life with reasonable weight? A battery that lasts five years with only 30% decrease in capacity?
• Reasonably well color-calibrated screen pretty much covering sRGB, with reasonable sharpness, viewing angles and brightness, which doesn't wobble or develop faults in a couple of years?
• Accurate, pleasant-to-use trackpad?
• Backlit keyboard, typing on which isn't uncomfortable, annoying, or error-prone? And which doesn't lose key caps when you sneeze or develop unresponsive keys?
• Good durability? Good resale value?

Sounds like a Lenovo Thinkpad. Like the 2010 X201t I writing this comment right now. Any windows business grade laptop will do the above items. And guess what? It will cost similar or actually more. And guess what else? It'll do more than a Mac. Like being able to swap out the HD/SSD, battery, trackpad and trackpoint, SD card reader, fingerprint reader, etc...... a dedicated backspace key! And runs Win7 & Linux flawlessly. Even my 2006 toughbook had 6-7hr battery life, could throw it on the floor, and an outside readable screen (Lenovo X's have this)....but of course cost 2x a Mac of that time.

Apple just took "business grade" and made it usable for "home users" (i.e. easy, but less powerful). Hence why productivity tasks (spreadsheets, programming, etc...) are done on PC/Win/Linux hardware. One should give them credit: they have gotten the presentation thing down, but that's a smaller piece of the pie, as presentations are used by salesmen to managers to CEOs that typically don't do the work, but need to pitch something that appears complete--Keynote made for that stuff for example..

aa

[Anonymous Coward]

The Mac OS X upgrades are much better than the Windows 8.1 release, good.

iPad Air...

[Anonymous Coward]

... because iPads were wired before?

Re:A shot at other OS, computer *and* device maker

[Anonymous Coward]

From their SEC Filings: HP R&D Expenditures - 3.399B in 2012, 3.25B in 2011, 2.95B in 2010. Apple R&D Expenditures - 3.381B in 2012, 2.429B in 2011, 1.782B in 2010. Dell R&D Expenditures - 1.072B in 2012, 856M in 2011, 661M in 2010. I'll grant you that Dell looks a bit skimpy there, but then they have been trying to go out of business the last few years. So, to recap - HP outspends Apple on R&D, and Dell is batting about .300. Now lets look at some of the real heavyweights: Microsoft & Google. Microsoft R&D Expenditures - 10.411B in 2012, 9.811B in 2011, 9.043B in 2010. Google R&D Expenditures - 6.79B in 2012, 5.162B in 2011, 3.76B in 2010. So, roughly a 5x beat down by Microsoft, and a 2x smashing by Google. And let's not even talk about Intel. Apple historically has invested about 2% of revenue in R&D, and the silicon valley historical average is roughly 4%. Please revise your understanding of who spends what.

Re:A shot at other OS, computer *and* device maker

[peragrin]

hint. 99% of the population tosses a computer when the hardware stops performing as it is cheaper to replace the whole machine, than to spend $200 upgrading the processor, memory, or video card of a $400 computer.

Hell usually by the time the computer components are starting to die it is time to replace everything anyways as you can get a better processor(faster better power management), better video card, bigger drive etc.

The only time replacable parts are useful is for servers. where they will break down more often.

Re:A shot at other OS, computer *and* device maker

[MysteriousPreacher]

Agreed. All you need to do is update the processor, the mobo, the HD and slap in a new GPU, but apart from those changes it's the same craptacular computer.

Health concerns...

[sabbede]

I'm concerned by the apparent decline in the overall health of iPeople. Why are they so weak that 1.4lbs is too much? Are we seeing the long-term impact of veganism?

For chrissakes people, eat a burger and get some exercise!

No colors yet!

[Anonymous Coward]

They haven't introduced bright colors yet. Which means they still see there's room for improvement. Colors added to any line usually indicates the decline of the product line and end of innovation at Apple. The CRT iMacs, the clam shell MacBooks, and iPods come to mind. iPhones are starting their decline if this is any indication.

Re:A shot at other OS, computer *and* device maker

[NatasRevol]

Why not? Range.

NFC range is 8". Yes, inches.

Bluetooth is >8 feet.

If you put your music device in your pants pocket, you'll lose connection with your headphones.

Abusive behavior?

[unixisc]

You just answered your own question: because once I pay for it, it's not their hardware anymore. It's mine, and I'll do whatever I damn well please with it.

And yes, I apply that logic to every single one of the greedy bastards who prevent consumers from having full control over their own property, not just Apple.

Yeah, it's your hardware, and you are at liberty to do what you like - install Windows, Linux, Android, BSD, whatever. They don't try & do anything to you for that. What they do do is tell you upfront that if you do any of that, it voids the warranty. Simple reason - Apple doesn't hire people to do these other OSs on their toys, and has no reason to. It's just like when you buy anything else - it's yours, but there are certain things, which if you do, void the warranties.

Re:Abusive behavior?

[CanHasDIY]

Tell that to Sony - I want linux on my PS3, dammit!

Re:Abusive behavior?

[unixisc]

Sony doesn't make/sell that, so either risk voiding a warranty after getting a PS3 and putting Linux on it, or get a console from a more obscure company that does come w/ Linux on it

Re:Abusive behavior?

[CanHasDIY]

You don't get it - Sony removed the ability to install Linux on a PS3.

Not being a software engineer, I lack the expertise to hack the thing back to working condition. It's not a reasonable expectation to say that all consumers should be able to reverse engineer every single thing they buy.

That's my bitch - not that they would void my warranty for installing Linux, but that they removed my ability to do it, period.

Whoosh

[SuperKendall]

PCIe drives don't cost any more than SATA drives

Just noting that it is faster. Of course it doesn't cost any more, there is no housing for one thing. But the chips themselves can cost more if they are faster than what you would put into a SATA SSD drive because they would be limited by the controller speed.

the upgrade from 256GB is about 3/5 the price that Apple charges.

And you really think the chips in that laptop are anywhere near as fast as what they are using in the Mac Pro? Come on! That the difference is so slight proves my point.

Re:Whoosh

[AmiMoJo]

And you really think the chips in that laptop are anywhere near as fast as what they are using in the Mac Pro?

Benchmarks say yes.

Re:Whoosh

[SuperKendall]

Benchmarks say yes.

Benchmarks against a computer that ships in December⦠Whatever you say.

Re:A shot at other OS, computer *and* device maker

[spire3661]

You are an idiot. You use the NFC connection to HANDSHAKE THE BLUETOOTH connection.

iWork

[hazydave]

I think everyone's missing the point of iWork... this is mostly just a shot at Microsoft. This is Apple deciding that selling hardware is more important for them than nickel and diming on apps... and given their 30-50% margins, that's probably a good notion. Microsoft's super powers in office automation came from them controlling the OS and pre-installing Office as a bundle with Windows for years. This effectively killed off the competition -- who's going to pay for WordPerfect when Office is "Free" (well, I did, back in the day, but most folks didn't).

Now Apple's selling a volume of devices that's at least interesting compared to the volume of devices that Microsoft powers with Windows. Dropping iWork on the iPad delivers an Apple-blessed office solution that's probably better tuned to the quirks of iPad users than anything from Microsoft would be. Including that on the Mac means full sync throughout the Apple ecosystem. And helps prevent Microsoft from establishing any kind of beachhead on the iPad, or probably what they're really thinking, via the collaborative parts of Office365 vs. iCloud.

In short, a smart move for Apple. Not pushed as much yet, but between Google Docs and Quickoffice, Google is already offering this same kind of free thing on Android. And Android outsold Windows last year, and they're killing it even more this year.

It's clear Microsoft Office became a corporate standard, but not clear why so many still use it -- it's pretty awful. Not that OpenOffice/LibreOffice are much better, themselves being too much clones of the bad ideas in MS-Office. But then again, I didn't have to pay $500 or whatever for either of those, or Quickoffice on Android. Microsoft trying to get me to use their tools on Android, for collaboration, or online, they have the same problem with mobile users that Wordperfect/Corel and Lotus/IBM had all those years... they're not the free thing anymore.

Re: A shot at other OS, computer *and* device make

[Bootes]

And I took my old MBP and put an SSD in by unscrewing the only visible screws on the machine to open it and then the screws around the hard drive... Pretty sure it wasn't any more difficult than your upgrade.

Re:A shot at other OS, computer *and* device maker

[JesseMcDonald]

The idea is to use NFC for Bluetooth pairing in place of entering a PIN, not to actually play music over NFC. Eight inches should be plenty.

Re:A shot at other OS, computer *and* device maker

[vux984]

Yes, let's compare the just announced apple refreshed product to stuff you randomly dug up on Dell.

Here's the thing about apple, the value proposition is actually pretty good assuming you only care about the specs in the base-line product AND you only do the price comparison the day after its released.

Whereas every other manufacturers products either steadily get cheaper over time, or steadily get spec bumps over time while the price stays constant -- Apple's specs and price stay exactly the same until the product is refreshed.

So come back 12 months from now, and the apple product will still be $1800, the RAM, SSD will be the same size, the graphics will be 1-2 generations old, and pretty much everything you can buy somewhere else will be better.

the most comparable thing i can find at dell.com is this...

Mmmm... sure... or why not this...

http://www.dell.com/us/business/p/xps-15-9530/pd?oc=smx15w8p002&model_id=xps-15-9530

Its $150 more instead of $600 less

So... what do you get for $150 bucks more?

i7 instead of i5
double the ram (16GB instead of 8GB)
1TB HD + 32GB mSata SSD -- vs 512MB SSD -- interesting trade off
nvidia 750M with 2GB ram vs intel integrated
3200 x 1800 QHD+ display vs 2560x1600
15" vs 13"

Well.. the dell blows the apple away now overall for paltry $150 differential, but 15" to 13" right? Lets bump up the mac to 15" so its apples to well... apples :)

that gets us i7 -- parity
16GB ram -- parity
1TB+32GB ssd vs 512GB ssd -- same trade off as before
nvidia 750M w 2GB ram -- parity
3200x1800 vs 2880x1800 -- slight edge on the dell

price? $1950 vs ... $2600... $650 difference... ouch... even if you prefer the apple hard drive scenario, its not worth a $650 premium over the dell solution; retail cost on a DIY upgrade would be less. And that's just spending 5 minutes on the website. I expect I can do better and get exactly want, in volume for the company with a phone call to my dell rep. Can I do that with apple? Nope. Apple rep? Lol... is that even a thing?

Re:A shot at other OS, computer *and* device maker

[farble1670]

yeah, i probably didn't find that one on dell.com because IT'S NOT EVEN SHIPPING YET. yes, i admit it, i went to their store site and browsed systems that are actually for sale.

price? $1950 vs ... $2600... $650 difference... ouch...

anyway, i agree with most of what you wrote. MBPs are more expensive and i wouldn't dispute that. i was mainly responding to a parent post that quoted $400 for a comparable windows system. personally, i'd pay 20-25% more to get the system that i want ... that doesn't run windows, and where i won't have to struggle with linux to get the system working smoothly.

Apple rep? Lol... is that even a thing?

do you seriously want to speak with some idiot to figure out what laptop you can purchase?

Whereas every other manufacturers products either steadily get cheaper over time, or steadily get spec bumps over time while the price stays constant -- Apple's specs and price stay exactly the same until the product is refreshed.

that's not what i've observed. i've been in the market to replace an aging windows laptop for over a year and have been watching prices closely. prices haven't dropped, even on low end windows laptops.
 

Re:A shot at other OS, computer *and* device maker

[vux984]

IT'S NOT EVEN SHIPPING YET

touche.

although, 2 weeks ago neither was the apple. and 2 weeks from now they both will. im not sure this is where to split hairs.

personally, i'd pay 20-25% more to get the system that i want ... that doesn't run windows, and where i won't have to struggle with linux to get the system working smoothly.

fair enough. I'm writing this on an MBP myself, so I'm hardly rabidly anti-apple. I like the magsafe adapter, the overall metal build quality. etc. I'm fairly OS agnostic. The unix stuff i need to do ... doesn't need to be done locally. remote access is fine for me, for that.

do you seriously want to speak with some idiot to figure out what laptop you can purchase?

As opposed to being able to pick from 3 models? The dell sales guys at the corporate level, at least tend to be able to offer more than the rigid website, and dells website is lot less rigid than apples.

i've been in the market to replace an aging windows laptop for over a year and have been watching prices closely. prices haven't dropped, even on low end windows laptops.

I dunno... there's always something on sale somewhere; and there's always good deals to be had if you shop around if you aren't dead set on a particular model/configuration. With apple its pretty much take it or leave it until the next hardware refresh.

Re:A shot at other OS, computer *and* device maker

[NatasRevol]

Why the fuck would you want to?

Is it really that hard to type '0000'?

Re:A shot at other OS, computer *and* device maker

[Anonymous Coward]

I think its kind of ridiculous when you think that Apples Mac OSX is SO FAR above and beyond windows. It just isn't. All those features you mentioned, maybe they are great for you, but I really don't need any of them. Slick and Efficient UI: I can hit Windows key and type any program I want to run in W7. The UI is familiar and slick to me. Please tell me how Apple's UI is superior beyond gestures on a Macbook (do you have those on a desktop, which is my preferred computing environment?) Integrated cloud sharing and backups, I have my own backup software that I wrote, and Dropbox for quick and easy cloud backups, MS Office works fine for me and I don't care if you can 'beat' them, iLife I have seen, and don't really care about, iTunes I have always HATED with a passion so I refuse to use (my music ecosystem is a file browser and its all I need!) I can get the equivalent hardware MUCH cheaper because the software you mention does not make me feel warm and creamy inside like it so obviously does for you. Maybe it's worth a lot to you, but some of us would rather spend that extra $1000-1500 dollars on something tangible rather than that warm and creamy feeling of 'playing with the future of computing today' because Apple convinced you that's what you're getting. I just don't get why that is worth so much money to people. If it helps you keep more in touch, more connected, with more possibilities, then great! I don't see how that's so in any way, but keep living the dream I guess!

Re:A shot at other OS, computer *and* device maker

[Anonymous Coward]

A more interesting "major shot" would have been to sell OSX seperately to install on any computer.