Apple Announces iPad Air

Major shot at Microsoft, too. by jcr · 2013-10-22 06:29 · Score: 4, Interesting

iWork is now free, and include collaboration features that MS Office will have a hell of a time trying to match.

-jcr

--
The only title of honor that a tyrant can grant is "Enemy of the State."

Re:Major shot at Microsoft, too. by Barlo_Mung_42 · 2013-10-22 06:36 · Score: 3, Insightful

MS is more worried about Google docs imo. Office already has collaborative features that work across platforms. For iWork to be interesting it would need to work on more than just Mac.
Re:Major shot at Microsoft, too. by guruevi · 2013-10-22 06:37 · Score: 4, Informative

It has been working on any device for a while now. It's similar to O365, it's browser based but free.

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Re:Major shot at Microsoft, too. by mosb1000 · 2013-10-22 06:43 · Score: 1, Informative

For iWork to be interesting it would need to work on more than just Mac.
Which is why it does.
Re:Major shot at Microsoft, too. by jcr · 2013-10-22 07:13 · Score: 3, Insightful

Microsoft's collaboration support looks pretty half-assed to me. http://www.pcworld.com/article/2033437/collaboration-in-microsoft-office-painful-but-not-impossible.html
-jcr

--
The only title of honor that a tyrant can grant is "Enemy of the State."
Re:Major shot at Microsoft, too. by adamstew · 2013-10-22 07:22 · Score: 3, Informative

The collaboration features will work on any device that has reasonable HTML 5 support as it is entirely browser based...including Mac, iDevices, Windows (IE, Chrome, Firefox), and a fair number of non-apple tablets...including the Surface. No license or account is needed for the collaborators.
Re:Major shot at Microsoft, too. by Savage-Rabbit · 2013-10-22 07:22 · Score: 1, Insightful

MS is more worried about Google docs imo. Office already has collaborative features that work across platforms. For iWork to be interesting it would need to work on more than just Mac.
Office only has a native client on Windows, iWork has one only on OS X and iOS, Google Docs has no official native clients that I'm aware of. Since Google Docs is a web only app the only fair thing to do is compare it to the web versions of iWork and Office 365. The web version of iWork is supported on Windows browsers. It's not supported on Linux but will run there on Firefox. Comparing the two I'd say iWork is in many ways on par with Google Docs except that iWork looks more slick. I can't compare the two to Office 365 since I haven't used it but it would seem to me that iWork could be made to achieve feature parity Google Docs and Office 365 with relatively little effort. It all depends on whether Apple can pull it's head out of it's ass (unlikely), ensure official support for iWork/iCloud on Linux/Android desktops and how important it is to them to piss off Google by matching Google Docs feature-for-feature.

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-- Henning von Tresckow
Re:Major shot at Microsoft, too. by Roadstar · 2013-10-22 07:34 · Score: 5, Informative

Office only has a native client on Windows,
I beg to differ.
Re:Major shot at Microsoft, too. by Cinder6 · 2013-10-22 07:35 · Score: 1

Microsoft also sells Office on the Mac.
The iWork apps are surprisingly capable on iOS, even on the phone. How do they compare to other mobile offerings?

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If you can't convince them, convict them.
Re:Major shot at Microsoft, too. by RazzleFrog · 2013-10-22 07:40 · Score: 1, Funny

Exactly. Anything Apple or Google does is just going to be for home users and small businesses which is not where Microsoft makes their big money. You'd have to pry Excel from my cold dead hands.
Re:Major shot at Microsoft, too. by BLToday · 2013-10-22 07:41 · Score: 5, Interesting

iWork is surprisingly very functional on a Surface. Don't laugh. I've used iWork for iCloud on my Surface (no keyboard cover) and works much better than the built in MS Office that comes with the Surface since Office pretty much requires the keyboard cover.
Re:Major shot at Microsoft, too. by ljw1004 · 2013-10-22 08:02 · Score: 1

I tried to try it out but without much luck...
(1) Go to www.icloud.com
(2) Click "forgot my password"
(3) Enter my AppleID and click "Next"
(4) Select "answer security questions" and click Next
(5) Oops, it asks me to enter my AppleID again. I do so and click "Next"
(6) Again I select "answer security questions" and click Next
(7) It asks me my security question, and I answer, and click Next
(8) It asks me for a new password, which I type out twice, and click Next
(9) Oops! Session timed out! (after all of 40 seconds). Click Next
(10) Back to step 3, I enter my appleID and click "Next"
(11) Select "answer security questions" and click Next
(12) Session timed out! after all of 20 seconds. Click Next
(13) Enter my AppleID and click Next
(14) oops! session timed out, after 10 seconds this time.
Will try again later. "iforgot.apple.com"? - maybe YOU forgot too!
Re:Major shot at Microsoft, too. by ljw1004 · 2013-10-22 08:09 · Score: 2

Okay, managed to get my AppleID password changed. I sign in to www.icloud.com and it says:

Set up ICloud on a device to use iCloud.com
Your Apple ID must be used to set up iCloud on an iOS or OS X device before you can use iCloud.com.
So I don't understand which collaboration features you're referring to. Where they "iCloud.com"? Or something else?
Re:Major shot at Microsoft, too. by ljw1004 · 2013-10-22 08:10 · Score: 1

For what it's worth, I tried exactly the same process using Chrome instead of Firefox and it worked fine this time.
Re:Major shot at Microsoft, too. by NatasRevol · 2013-10-22 08:12 · Score: 3, Informative

http://www.icloud.com/

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There are two types of people in the world: Those who crave closure
Re:Major shot at Microsoft, too. by AmiMoJo · 2013-10-22 08:18 · Score: 1

Google Docs has a native client for Android.

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Re:Major shot at Microsoft, too. by NatasRevol · 2013-10-22 08:29 · Score: 1

Apparently, Firefox isn't the greatest, or most supported, browser anymore.
http://support.apple.com/kb/HT5436

--
There are two types of people in the world: Those who crave closure
Re:Major shot at Microsoft, too. by ColdWetDog · 2013-10-22 08:29 · Score: 1

Actually, they don't even remove it completely. The guy said I can't sign up using the same email address again, so clearly they keep at least that on file forever.
If you are surprised about that, you should turn in your Geek card and get a higher Slashdot UID.
Nothing on the Internet is deleted.
Unless, of course, you actually needed it.

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Re:Major shot at Microsoft, too. by AmiMoJo · 2013-10-22 08:59 · Score: 3, Interesting

Actually I'm thinking of making a complaint under UK data protection laws. They are only allowed to keep personal information as long as they have a legitimate reason to do so, and since I no long have any relationship with them I can't see a reason why they should not delete my email address.
At most they should store a hash of it if their systems are so shitty that signing up with a previously deleted email address will break them, but that's the absolute limit.

--
const int one = 65536; (Silvermoon, Texture.cs)
SJW, n: "Someone I don't like, and by the way I'm a fuckwit" - AC
Re:Major shot at Microsoft, too. by TomGreenhaw · 2013-10-22 09:21 · Score: 1

If you consider Sharepoint, Microsoft has had a fairly comprehensive collaboration system that works well with MS Office for years. Its pricey but has achieved a fair share of enterprise deployments.

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Greed is the root of all evil.
Re:Major shot at Microsoft, too. by exomondo · 2013-10-22 09:40 · Score: 1

iWork is now free, and include collaboration features that MS Office will have a hell of a time trying to match.
-jcr
It isn't free, it's included in the price of new hardware. If it were free I could get it for no cost on my current macbook.
Re:Major shot at Microsoft, too. by ljw1004 · 2013-10-22 09:42 · Score: 4, Informative

I went here and tried to log in with my AppleID. It said:

Set up iCloud on a device to use iCloud.com.
Your Apple ID must be used to set up iCloud on an iOS or OS X device before you can use iCloud.com.
So for Linux and windows users, no, iWork doesn't work.
Re:Major shot at Microsoft, too. by spire3661 · 2013-10-22 10:24 · Score: 2

Its because they wont play ball with the media cartels.

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Good-bye
Re:Major shot at Microsoft, too. by gnasher719 · 2013-10-22 10:32 · Score: 1

I would have said that the fact that iWork is being bundled for free shows that Apple is concerned.
I love these pathetic attempts at spinning something into a negative. According to you, Google must be shitting themselves, since they have been giving away lots of software for free for many years.
Re:Major shot at Microsoft, too. by ljw1004 · 2013-10-22 10:36 · Score: 3, Insightful

I can read. I don't own an iOS or OS X device. That's what I meant by "Linux or windows user" - one who uses these operating systems rather than apple ones.
Re:Major shot at Microsoft, too. by Karlt1 · 2013-10-22 11:26 · Score: 1

The fact that we're seeing more open debate about Apple's products, however, implies that the veneer is wearing a bit thin.
And you base that conclusion on debate you're seeing on Slashdot for an Apple product?
Re:Major shot at Microsoft, too. by mosb1000 · 2013-10-22 13:08 · Score: 1

I'm in the middle of something, so I can't try this, but did you try downloading the control panel at apple. Of course, you have to have an iCloud membership so I'm not sure if that'd work for you.
Re:Major shot at Microsoft, too. by slash.jit · 2013-10-22 14:27 · Score: 1

I went to AppStore it still says $19, how is it free ?
Re:Major shot at Microsoft, too. by smash · 2013-10-22 15:25 · Score: 3, Interesting

This is by design. You are not an apple customer.

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I run: Windows, OS X, Linux, FreeBSD. Just because you have a hammer, doesn't mean everything is a nail.
Re:Major shot at Microsoft, too. by Barlo_Mung_42 · 2013-10-23 03:07 · Score: 1

Office works great on my Lumia.
Re:Major shot at Microsoft, too. by rthille · 2013-10-23 04:31 · Score: 1

at $3K, it's got 4 cores, but you an get 12 for an unannounced price.
Still, the box is probably 1000x more capable than the NeXT Cube I bought ages ago for $6500...

--
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Re:Major shot at Microsoft, too. by afidel · 2013-10-23 06:06 · Score: 1

Wait, what? Office for Mac has existing for forever and Office 365 even comes with a desktop license you can use on either PC or Mac.

--
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Re:Major shot at Microsoft, too. by hazydave · 2013-10-23 07:16 · Score: 1

When you're dependent on Apple for your hardware, the new Mac Pro is certainly better than the old Mac Pro. Unless you need a different GPU, of course.
Compared to the PC market, it's crazy overpriced. I put together a system with more i7 cores, more RAM (64GB), a larger SSD (960GB), a built-in RAID10 (6GB effective), and ok, less GPU power (just one high-end ATi card), but with room for three more if I ever need that... for less than half of this price.
I guess Intel's running late on the 12-core version of that CPU, though... Apple had claimed when they introduced the new "Macintrash" design that they'd be shipping in the fall, and then, pretty much just talked about the high-end model.

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-Dave Haynie
Re:Major shot at Microsoft, too. by cbhacking · 2013-10-23 09:16 · Score: 1

Not to mention Windows Phone... it's a minor platform, but if you're going to include iOS you may as well include WP as well.

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There's no place I could be, since I've found Serenity...
Re:Major shot at Microsoft, too. by Joining+Yet+Again · 2013-10-23 22:39 · Score: 1

Because when you're a real business paying real employees, the cost of an Office licence is so insurmountably high that you're going to choose a third-best option.
Every minute spent on fanboy navel-gazing is a minute not spent working optimally using the most fully featured, familiar productivity suite. And that means less money. And that's not worth it.
Re:Major shot at Microsoft, too. by shutdown+-p+now · 2013-10-24 17:05 · Score: 1

Which gets us back to the original point, which is that, with this attitude, it's not going to be a viable competitor to Office outside of the Apple ecosystem.
Re:Major shot at Microsoft, too. by shutdown+-p+now · 2013-10-24 17:06 · Score: 1

MS Office does too, now (although it requires a subscription). But, feature-wise, they're not really comparable to full-fledged desktop apps.

I gotta admit by Andrio · 2013-10-22 06:29 · Score: 4, Interesting

That's pretty impressive engineering. Think it allows Android to be installed on it? :)

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Re: I gotta admit by supertrooper · 2013-10-22 06:41 · Score: 5, Funny

Speak for yourself. Now that it's twice as fast, I can finish the movie in half the time.
Re: I gotta admit by Anonymous Coward · 2013-10-22 06:54 · Score: 1

I need to know how many transistors it has before I'll buy one.
Re:I gotta admit by Hamsterdan · 2013-10-22 07:22 · Score: 1

Why is it abusive? It's their hardware, their rules. It's not like you can install iOS or Windows on a Nexus either.

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I've got better things to do tonight than die.
Re:I gotta admit by SighKoPath · 2013-10-22 07:30 · Score: 3, Insightful

You could, if there were versions of iOS or Windows compatible with its hardware. I mean, the Nexus doesn't prevent you from installing other OSs - take a look at Ubuntu Touch.
Re:I gotta admit by CanHasDIY · 2013-10-22 07:53 · Score: 5, Insightful

Why is it abusive? It's their hardware, their rules.
You just answered your own question: because once I pay for it, it's not their hardware anymore. It's mine, and I'll do whatever I damn well please with it.
And yes, I apply that logic to every single one of the greedy bastards who prevent consumers from having full control over their own property, not just Apple.

--
An enigma, wrapped in a riddle, shrouded in bacon and cheese
Re:I gotta admit by tlhIngan · 2013-10-22 08:00 · Score: 4, Informative

That's pretty impressive engineering. Think it allows Android to be installed on it? :)
Except the bootloader probably isn't designed to boot 32-bit OSes, ARMv8 isn't terribly impressive in AArch32 mode, and Android isn't 64-bit native yet.
Most of the speed ups the A7 gets are from 64-bit code as it cleans up a lot of the architecture. 32-bit code works, but the speedup is minimal.
And yes, the bootloader has to be 64-bit and then switch the CPU to 32-bit mode in order to boot a 32-bit OS. Running a 32-bit OS means you can't run 64-bit code at all. When you go down the privilege levels (secure monitor, hypervisor (VM), kernel, user) you can go from 64 to 32 bit mode, but to go the other way requires going up the stack.
Re:I gotta admit by unixisc · 2013-10-22 09:26 · Score: 1

Don't be shy, Mr Stallman!
Re:I gotta admit by exomondo · 2013-10-22 10:20 · Score: 1

Why is it abusive? It's their hardware, their rules.
You just answered your own question: because once I pay for it, it's not their hardware anymore. It's mine, and I'll do whatever I damn well please with it.
It's their hardware which they make, then they sell it to you and it's your hardware and - as you say - you can do whatever you please with it. So what's the problem?
Re: I gotta admit by RyuuzakiTetsuya · 2013-10-22 11:42 · Score: 1

Once it's in your own hands, what's stopping you?
Certainly Apple isn't going to send goons to your home if you install Android on it. :)
Not keeping the boot loader open isn't them keeping you from doing it, mind you. They're just trying to keep the damned thing working for most users.

--
Non impediti ratione cogitationus.
Re:I gotta admit by dk20 · 2013-10-22 11:50 · Score: 1

Can you outline on the box where it lists these limitations?
Re:I gotta admit by Solandri · 2013-10-22 12:11 · Score: 1

Most of the speed ups the A7 gets are from 64-bit code as it cleans up a lot of the architecture. 32-bit code works, but the speedup is minimal.
I'm extremely skeptical that there's much of any significant speedup for 64-bit code in general use (i.e. outside of specialized number crunching applications). If you look at Anandtech's iPhone 5S review where they ran a bunch of math-heavy benchmarks, the median speedup is only about 9%. The benchmarks recording the biggest improvements (AES, SHA1, DGEMM) showed huge speedups due to new hardware cryptographic instructions and vectorization, not from switching to 64-bit code.

My hunch is this is going to play out pretty much like 64-bit Windows. Yes there was a speedup, but only about 5%-15% on average, not enough of a performance boost for people to notice in everyday use. The real reason everyone switched to 64-bit was for the flat memory space addresses (>4 GB). It's better for code to be 64-bit, but the performance increase merits a mere footnote, while the flat memory space is a headliner.
Re: I gotta admit by exomondo · 2013-10-22 16:04 · Score: 1

Precisely, it is your hardware, it might not be particularly open or have mechanisms for doing what you want to do but you don't get to dictate what they sell, you get to choose what you buy so if you bought that hardware with the intention of installing Android on it and then find out it isn't particularly easy then frankly you bought the wrong product.
Re:I gotta admit by unixisc · 2013-10-23 03:20 · Score: 1

Not on the box, but in the warranty sections of the user manuals. Which one would do well to read, particularly if one is in the habit of trying out these experiments
Re:I gotta admit by CanHasDIY · 2013-10-23 04:22 · Score: 1

Not on the box, but in the warranty sections of the user manuals. Which one would do well to read, particularly if one is in the habit of trying out these experiments
So, in contradiction to the previous poster's statements, they do try and fool consumers by hiding the "rules" deep in documents most people don't bother with, instead of being up-front about how "your" property is treated by the company that made it.

--
An enigma, wrapped in a riddle, shrouded in bacon and cheese
Re:I gotta admit by exomondo · 2013-10-23 09:33 · Score: 1

So what exactly would you suggest they put on the box to explain all of this information? This seems like the sort of stuff you would ask the salesperson or do some research on. The issue clearly has nothing to do with ownership of the hardware and is just about the software, which you could theoretically replace.
Re:I gotta admit by CanHasDIY · 2013-10-23 09:38 · Score: 1

So what exactly would you suggest they put on the box to explain all of this information?
How about instead of using the word "buy" they instead use the more accurate "rent" or "lease?" Perhaps state this little factoid clearly, somewhere that the consumer will definitely see it, instead of burying the info somewhere inside a 250 page EULA?
Personally, I don't buy the whole "morality is hard" concept; being honest and up-front about things pretty damn easy in my experience.

--
An enigma, wrapped in a riddle, shrouded in bacon and cheese
Re:I gotta admit by dk20 · 2013-10-23 11:57 · Score: 1

So if i understand this correctly i learn about these limitations AFTER i buy the product and open it making it difficult to return?
Re:I gotta admit by dk20 · 2013-10-23 12:00 · Score: 1

You nailed it. I actually have a few apple products (not many). The most frustrating thing? After jailbreaking my appletv's to get XBMC on them they force upgrade and replace it. Now i have to wait for a new jailbreak to get it back on. I dont recall agreeing to have my device force updated, no did i agree to have something i did (install xbmc) removed. Its more like a rental arrangement, they seem to want to control every aspect even after they sold it. In which case perhaps i should only pay $5 a month for it instead of $129 to buy it?
Re:I gotta admit by dk20 · 2013-10-23 12:04 · Score: 1

Because sales people are always forthcoming even if its going to cost them a sale by describing the lock-ins?
"The purchase of the device can best be viewed as a rental agreement. Apple retains all ownership of the software and may restrict what you can do with the device after you purchase it".
Wrote that in a few seconds, i'm sure a "marketing/legal" department can do a better job.
Re:I gotta admit by exomondo · 2013-10-23 12:06 · Score: 1

How about instead of using the word "buy" they instead use the more accurate "rent" or "lease?"
That's less accurate, you do buy and own the hardware, you don't rent or lease it. You don't own the software, you license it.
Re:I gotta admit by exomondo · 2013-10-23 13:52 · Score: 1

"The purchase of the device can best be viewed as a rental agreement. Apple retains all ownership of the software and may restrict what you can do with the device after you purchase it".
But that's wrong, you never have to update the software if you don't want to, you can always use it just the same as the day you bought it.
Re:I gotta admit by dk20 · 2013-10-23 14:02 · Score: 1

Perhaps you can explain why my appleTV (2) has been updated three times since I've owned it even though i have never selected update? Ever try to "undo" an update? They are encrypted and cant be "rolled back". Why is that?
Re:I gotta admit by exomondo · 2013-10-23 15:24 · Score: 1

Perhaps you can explain why my appleTV (2) has been updated three times since I've owned it even though i have never selected update?
Because AppleTV has an optional 'auto update' feature which you obviously have turned on.
Re:I gotta admit by MachineShedFred · 2013-10-24 00:37 · Score: 1

And if you buy a car and radically modify the engine and drivetrain, your warranty goes away.
So it is with this.

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Re:I gotta admit by CanHasDIY · 2013-10-24 02:40 · Score: 1

You don't own the software, you license it.
Which is not made clear to the consumer until after they've purchased the item and opened the packaging, thus devaluing the product.
Face it, the way hardware w/ software purchases are treated is blatantly scammy. Why would you defend a practice that hurts you?
That's something I don't think I'll ever understand about humans - our willingness to act against our own best interests.

--
An enigma, wrapped in a riddle, shrouded in bacon and cheese
Re:I gotta admit by CanHasDIY · 2013-10-24 02:43 · Score: 1

And if you buy a car and radically modify the engine and drivetrain, your warranty goes away.
Only on the parts you modify, and possibly related systems. For example, if you put a cold-air intake on your engine, the warranty still covers your driveshaft, wheels, cooling system, electronics, etc., but maybe not your exhaust.
So, nothing like it is with consumer electronics.

--
An enigma, wrapped in a riddle, shrouded in bacon and cheese
Re:I gotta admit by exomondo · 2013-10-24 09:42 · Score: 1

Which is not made clear to the consumer until after they've purchased the item and opened the packaging, thus devaluing the product.
Then that is the thing that should be made clear, if you knew that then why did you suggest it should be portrayed as if you are renting or leasing the product?

Face it, the way hardware w/ software purchases are treated is blatantly scammy. Why would you defend a practice that hurts you?
I'm not defending it, I'm trying to understand where you're coming from, first you were talking about hardware ownership, I'm not even sure who you think is disagreeing with you since it is quite clear that you do indeed own the hardware. Then you decided you wanted it to be that the product is leased or rented instead of bought which wouldn't be accurate at all. The fact is it is the software component of the device that is licensed so perhaps they need to put on the box "The software contained on the device is licensed - not sold - to you." or something like that.
Re:I gotta admit by dk20 · 2013-10-24 11:10 · Score: 1

Perhaps you can show me where the "optional" part is so i can turn it off?

I think you are thinking of something like this:
http://forums.plexapp.com/index.php/topic/29970-disable-automatic-updates/

where you edit the hosts file to prevent it?

Are you sure this "optional" when the only way to disable it is via a hosts file?
Re:I gotta admit by exomondo · 2013-10-24 14:15 · Score: 1

Perhaps you can show me where the "optional" part is so i can turn it off?
I don't have an AppleTV, but surely you're familiar with search engines that allow you to find stuff.

I think you are thinking of something like this: http://forums.plexapp.com/index.php/topic/29970-disable-automatic-updates/

No, no I'm not. It clearly states that "The problem is that "trigger happy" kids are updating and leaving me with a new jailbreaking", so he ultimately wanting to put a stop to manual updating, which you would know if you bothered to actually read the first post of the link you posted.
Re:I gotta admit by dk20 · 2013-10-24 14:28 · Score: 1

Let me see if i understand this correctly.
You dont have an appletv, but you are sure its because i have the auto update on (you stated its obvious).

Then i tell you how i managed to disable the auto update and you refer me to google?

You are correct, his problem was his kids. The point of the link was it contains instructions needed to disable it.

This is not the case with me and had you used google yourself you would see auto-updating breaking jailbreaks is a common problem.

By the way, did you read the CNET link you included?
"I'm not sure what caused the lone unit to set itself to on, but it's a good reminder to always check these settings."
Re:I gotta admit by exomondo · 2013-10-24 16:14 · Score: 1

You dont have an appletv, but you are sure its because i have the auto update on (you stated its obvious).
It has a feature called "auto update", which obviously if you have that on then it will automatically update. In any case if the auto update switch is broken on AppleTV there's clearly an issue there, but I don't have an AppleTV and was referring to iPhones & iPads, which you do not have to update.

Then i tell you how i managed to disable the auto update and you refer me to google?
Read your post where you clearly asked how to disable the auto update feature:
"Perhaps you can show me where the "optional" part is so i can turn it off?"

You are correct, his problem was his kids. The point of the link was it contains instructions needed to disable it.
No, it contained instructions needed to prevent updating it even if you deliberately and explicitly attempted to update it.

This is not the case with me and had you used google yourself you would see auto-updating breaking jailbreaks is a common problem.
Of course auto-updating breaks jailbreaks, it updates the OS.

By the way, did you read the CNET link you included?
"I'm not sure what caused the lone unit to set itself to on, but it's a good reminder to always check these settings."
Yes I did, I don't know what the default is but if it's off leave it off and if it's on turn it off.
Re:I gotta admit by CanHasDIY · 2013-10-25 02:21 · Score: 1

The fact is it is the software component of the device that is licensed so perhaps they need to put on the box "The software contained on the device is licensed - not sold - to you." or something like that.
Yea, that's pretty much what I'm getting at.
I tend to be a rather mercurial personality, so my train of thought has a habit of constantly jumping rails; less of a Point A to Point B trip, but more like the ridiculously circuitous route that a drunken fly would take. Sorry if it's sometime hard to follow.

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An enigma, wrapped in a riddle, shrouded in bacon and cheese
Re:I gotta admit by exomondo · 2013-10-25 19:24 · Score: 1

Well i think that would be perfectly reasonable.

iPads seem to overcome moore's law by etash · 2013-10-22 06:31 · Score: 5, Funny

since every new version is twice as faster as the previous one, given the fact that we see new versions in less than 18 months.

unless apple's engineers are optimizing this infamous loop:

for(i=0;i1000000000;i++);

Re:iPads seem to overcome moore's law by guruevi · 2013-10-22 06:38 · Score: 1

Moore's law is a lower limit. Chips have been increasing faster than Moore's law since the inception of the law.

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Re:iPads seem to overcome moore's law by jones_supa · 2013-10-22 07:17 · Score: 1

And if we look at single-core performance only, we have fallen off the wagon already.
Re:iPads seem to overcome moore's law by ShanghaiBill · 2013-10-22 07:23 · Score: 5, Informative

since every new version is twice as faster as the previous one, given the fact that we see new versions in less than 18 months.
Moore's Law is an observation about transistor density, not CPU speed.
Re:iPads seem to overcome moore's law by dinadan · 2013-10-22 08:12 · Score: 2

Moore's law is about transistor count, not performance.
Re:iPads seem to overcome moore's law by fyngyrz · 2013-10-22 23:15 · Score: 1

Good engineers see to it that more transistors == more performance, so...
Moore's law is, in the final analysis, about performance.

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Why is iPad so much better than iPhone? by WiiVault · 2013-10-22 06:35 · Score: 3, Interesting

Not to bash the iPhone, but how is it that Apple seems to be so much ahead of the pack when it comes to the iPad but the iPhone seems to be just another high-end smartphone? I mean the new full-size iPad seems so much better especially in size and weight than anything else out there, while the 5s is just a nice spec bump.

Re:Why is iPad so much better than iPhone? by tgd · 2013-10-22 06:45 · Score: 2, Informative

Not to bash the iPhone, but how is it that Apple seems to be so much ahead of the pack when it comes to the iPad but the iPhone seems to be just another high-end smartphone? I mean the new full-size iPad seems so much better especially in size and weight than anything else out there, while the 5s is just a nice spec bump.
Ahead of the pack in technology or sales?
None of their devices are close to the head of the pack from a technology standpoint. They can hype things up well, and they sell well, but across the boards they're middle-of-the-road hardware with typically one or two "oh, but we've got this!" upgrades that can be heavily marketed for the brief interlude before Samsung or another company makes a call on its actual value and adds it.
And, frankly, its just fine that Apple works that way.
Re:Why is iPad so much better than iPhone? by Anonymous Coward · 2013-10-22 06:48 · Score: 2, Informative

So far ahead of the pack? iOS still can't do the stuff that Windows Pro can, including backward compatibility, keyboard, etc.
The reason the iPhone is "just another high end phone" is because they've been behind the curve for years now. Give the market more time, and just like everything else, Apple will fall behind by sheer force of numbers. 10's and 100's of companies can make more progress than a single company - any day, all day.
Apple makes a well polished item then gets stuck in it's own success while it falls behind. Mac vs PC all over again.
I'll eat my words if Apple remains as much of a cash cow as it is for munch longer.
Re:Why is iPad so much better than iPhone? by i_ate_god · 2013-10-22 06:48 · Score: 1, Insightful

In what way is the iPad "middle-of-the-road" hardware?
What tablets on the market now exist that greatly exceed the ipad in the highend spectrum?

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Re:Why is iPad so much better than iPhone? by BaronAaron · 2013-10-22 06:50 · Score: 4, Informative

To be fair the Sony Xperia Tablet Z is only 6.9mm thick and only 1.1 pounds... The rest of the specs are also about the same, and that's been out for a month or two now.
Re:Why is iPad so much better than iPhone? by Anonymous Coward · 2013-10-22 06:52 · Score: 2, Funny

I'll eat my words if Apple remains as much of a cash cow as it is for munch longer.
Getting started early?
Re:Why is iPad so much better than iPhone? by SoupIsGood+Food · 2013-10-22 06:58 · Score: 1

Well, it =is= a spec bump. It's introducing some interesting stuff which is laying the groundwork for the future - most notably a 64bit processor - some stuff that's an interesting and well integrated minor selling point that will be aped by everyone else in the industry - the fingerprint reader and gold tone - and general refinement that makes it nicer to use than previous rev - the camera software. It's to keep the faithful in the fold. iPhone 6 should be the cart-upender you crave.
In general, tho, the dev tools for Android are fairly terrible and require more a lot more work to retool an app for a full size tablet, in a software market that subsists largely on ad-supported freeware. It's not as easy or profitable to support an Android tablet version of your software as it is in the Apple ecosystem, where users are more willing to pay money for software. This results in (comparative) lackluster demand for Android tablets, which results in lackluster tablets.
To be brutally blunt, despite, or rather because of, its enormous success, I think Android is on borrowed time. Touch-optimized ChromeOS is where the Google ecosystem is going to wind up. It will allow them to supplant Microsoft on the desktop, build demand in the tablet market, and cut Firefox OS off at the knees, all with the same code base and library of apps and complete visibility into user behavior (Google's in the business of selling ads and marketing data, remember).
Re:Why is iPad so much better than iPhone? by symbolset · 2013-10-22 07:12 · Score: 2

SXTZ display: 1920 x 1200 pixels. iPad Air display: 2048-by-1536.

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Re:Why is iPad so much better than iPhone? by Connie_Lingus · 2013-10-22 07:17 · Score: 3, Insightful

did you really say that Android is on borrowed time??
that's just utterly ridiculous...even if Google stopped work on it today, the OS community and the huge worldwide installed userbase would keep it going forever, just like Linus did with unix.
Android is going to be with us forever.

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Re:Why is iPad so much better than iPhone? by BaronAaron · 2013-10-22 07:23 · Score: 4, Insightful

The SXTZ display: 10.1". iPad Air display: 9.7"
If you won't care about the extra 128x336 pixels, I won't care about the extra 0.4 inches... Or the likely $100 price difference...
Re:Why is iPad so much better than iPhone? by LordLimecat · 2013-10-22 07:28 · Score: 4, Funny

Moving goalposts for the win!
Post a tablet priced cheaper, better specs, but 0.1 lbs heavier? The claim will be that the iPad is better because its more portable.
Post a tablet priced around the same, better weight / thickness, but not as good screen? iPad is better!
I will admit that when it comes to being exactly like an iPad, Apple does it best.
Re:Why is iPad so much better than iPhone? by jon3k · 2013-10-22 07:30 · Score: 1

The S model is always just a spec bump. Although slow motion video and TouchID are incredible.
Re:Why is iPad so much better than iPhone? by getNewNickName · 2013-10-22 07:32 · Score: 2

If you're comparing size and weight you need to take into account the important pieces that contribute to those stats: the display and the battery. The iPad Air has a 2048x1536 display vs 1920x1200 on the Xperia. According to the product page, the iPad Air has approx 10 hour battery life, while the Xperia doesn't specify battery life on its product page (some reviews are quoting 8 hours). I don't see Xperia as having "about the same" specs at all.
Re:Why is iPad so much better than iPhone? by Anonymous Coward · 2013-10-22 07:34 · Score: 5, Funny

Android is going to be with us forever.
Like Herpes.
Re:Why is iPad so much better than iPhone? by ArcadeMan · 2013-10-22 07:42 · Score: 3, Informative

Backward compatibility with what, exactly? Do you expect iOS to run Windows software?
Keyboards? You can use a bluetooth keyboard with any current iOS device and a lot of previous generations too.
Behind the curve? Only a small percentage of Android phones and tablets are using cutting-edge technology for both hardware and software. It doesn't matter if there's 10 times more Android hardware if 90% of it is brand new yet low-end stuff that cannot even run the latest software.

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Re:Why is iPad so much better than iPhone? by BaronAaron · 2013-10-22 07:44 · Score: 3, Interesting

The OP said the iPad seem so much better then anything out there.
My point is both tablets are in the same class. Not arguing the new iPad edges out the competition. It should, it's the newest high end tablet, but it's not revolutionary or anything. It will quickly lose the spec crown when the next round of high end Android tablets come out.
Re:Why is iPad so much better than iPhone? by ArcadeMan · 2013-10-22 07:44 · Score: 1

The new iPad mini retina will have the same 2048x1536 pixels in a 7.9" display.

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Re:Why is iPad so much better than iPhone? by larry+bagina · 2013-10-22 07:45 · Score: 2

that's just utterly ridiculous. Outside of slashdot, people don't root their phones and install a custom build of android. They don't (ie, can't) update it either. And in 1-2 years, they'll toss it and get another one. And one day, their next phone will run ChromeOS instead of Android. They'll play angry birds and dick around with wallpaper and ringtones and never give a shit that it is or isn't android.

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Re:Why is iPad so much better than iPhone? by ArcadeMan · 2013-10-22 07:48 · Score: 1

The S model is just a spec bump?

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Re:Why is iPad so much better than iPhone? by locopuyo · 2013-10-22 07:54 · Score: 1, Interesting

1920x1200 is actually a lot better than 2048x1536 for video playback because 1080p video won't have to be scaled and will look much, much clearer.
They should just stick with that 1920x1200 or 1920x1080 until they can make the jump to 4K resolution and get nice 4:1 pixel mapping so 1080p video doesn't look like crap.

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Re:Why is iPad so much better than iPhone? by oreiasecaman · 2013-10-22 07:55 · Score: 1

No doubt it's going to be around, but removing Google from the equation would seriously cripple it. Read this for more details

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Re:Why is iPad so much better than iPhone? by boristhespider · 2013-10-22 07:58 · Score: 1

And now every MP3 player out there can hold 120 gigabytes of music! Oh, no, they can't :( Not trolling, I'd just like an alternative to my aging iPod Classic when it gives up the ghost, but I won't have one - if Apple still sell them, it'll have to be another Classic. Which is a shame, since while I love the Classic I'm no fan at all of iTunes, particularly managing an iPod through it, which always seems too much hassle when all I want to do is drag and drop my music onto the player...
Re:Why is iPad so much better than iPhone? by CanHasDIY · 2013-10-22 07:59 · Score: 1

Not to bash the iPhone, but how is it that Apple seems to be so much ahead of the pack when it comes to the iPad but the iPhone seems to be just another high-end smartphone?
Oh, so you mean they finally got around to inventing that NFC chip that Google tablets have had for a while now?
Zing.

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Re:Why is iPad so much better than iPhone? by squiggleslash · 2013-10-22 08:00 · Score: 1

Even worse he thinks ChromeOS (an OS where all the apps are HTML5) is going to replace it.

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Re:Why is iPad so much better than iPhone? by CanHasDIY · 2013-10-22 08:02 · Score: 3, Interesting

that's just utterly ridiculous. Outside of slashdot, people don't root their phones and install a custom build of android.

No, but they do ask Slashdotters to do it for them.
At least, that's my experience.
"Hey, man, how do you keep that old Droid X running so smooth? Cyanogenmod, what's that? Can you put it on my phone for me?"

...in 1-2 years, they'll toss it and get another one... They'll play angry birds and dick around with wallpaper and ringtones and never give a shit...
That I cannot disagree with.

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Re:Why is iPad so much better than iPhone? by SoupIsGood+Food · 2013-10-22 08:14 · Score: 1

Android as a mass-market, Google-supported and actively sold and marketed product, accepted by mainstream industry is on borrowed time.
Don't think Linux. Think Open Solaris. How much of a dent is Open Solaris putting in the server room these days?
How about MeeGo? Hell, even WebOS is still being developed by a die-hard core after it was released to the world as open source abandonware. How many MeeGo or WebOS handsets you seen at the Verizon store? Android lives as long as Google and Samsung pour money and manpower into it. After that's gone, it's a hobby OS for die-hards and niche hardware companies.
And when ChromeOS matures, Android =will= be abandoned. Get used to the idea. It's a transitional system to get to the ChromeOS/Glass ecosystem Google has been saying VERY LOUDLY is their corporate direction.
Why is this notion a surprise?
(No, they don't expect everyone to wear the stupid headset. Does Google seem stupid to you? What did you =think= their goal for "ubiquitous computing" was? Everybody going gargoyle? No. Cheap phones have cameras and displays, all you need for augmented reality apps. Glass will be perfect for low-spec, low-buck locked-down featurephones currently ruled by various flavors of Java.)
Re:Why is iPad so much better than iPhone? by willy_me · 2013-10-22 08:21 · Score: 1

1920x1200 is actually a lot better than 2048x1536 for video playback because 1080p video won't have to be scaled and will look much, much clearer.

This is true if you are talking about a 100" screen. On a 9.7" screen the issue is mute.
Re:Why is iPad so much better than iPhone? by AmiMoJo · 2013-10-22 08:25 · Score: 1

They sound pretty much the same to me, slight difference in resolution and since manufacturers always exaggerate battery life it's safe to assume 8 hours is reasonable for the iPad Air as well. If anything the 1920x1200 screen is probably better suited to viewing full HD content.
There is also the fact that the Xperia is waterproof (30 minutes submersible) and dustproof.

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Re:Why is iPad so much better than iPhone? by mlts · 2013-10-22 08:37 · Score: 1

There is storage capacity. Not many Android devices support 64 gig, much less 128 gig, although if the device is 64 gig internally and it has a SD card slot, then this is less of an issue.
Re:Why is iPad so much better than iPhone? by Hognoxious · 2013-10-22 08:40 · Score: 1

I suspect that if I held it close enough to notice the difference I wouldn't be able to see it anyway because it'd be splattered with what used to be my snout.

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Re:Why is iPad so much better than iPhone? by non0score · 2013-10-22 08:44 · Score: 4, Insightful

Troll fail often? iPad and iPhones tend to have the top of the line internals at the time of release, CPU and GPU (they do skimp on RAM, though). If it wasn't for them maintaining screen resolution to help developers, they probably would've held on to the highest res screens title as well.
Re:Why is iPad so much better than iPhone? by Hognoxious · 2013-10-22 08:47 · Score: 1

I'd take that over Apple's or Microsoft's offerings any day.
Assuming something like CyanogenMod didn't step up to the plate.

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Confucius say, "Find worm in apple - bad. Find half a worm - worse."
Re:Why is iPad so much better than iPhone? by rve · 2013-10-22 08:49 · Score: 1

did you really say that Android is on borrowed time??
that's just utterly ridiculous...even if Google stopped work on it today, the OS community and the huge worldwide installed userbase would keep it going forever, just like Linus did with unix.
Android is going to be with us forever.
I'd top that with an even bolder statement: in 10 years time, unless something totally unforseeable happens, 'mobile' will mean 'Samsung gadget running Android' much the same way desktop computer meant Wintel up to only a few years ago, with maybe a upper single digit market share for Apple serving a hipster niche.
Re:Why is iPad so much better than iPhone? by NatasRevol · 2013-10-22 09:03 · Score: 1

Isn't there a saying about idiots & arguing?

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Re:Why is iPad so much better than iPhone? by Tom · 2013-10-22 09:04 · Score: 2

You missed that Google is putting more and more Android core apps into close source? The old (free) versions lack features and won't be used by regular users for long. I wouldn't bet on Android hanging around forever.
Basically, it's better than iOS in that regard, but not even near Linux.

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Re: Why is iPad so much better than iPhone? by BorgDrone · 2013-10-22 09:04 · Score: 1

If anything Apple underestimates the battery life.
Re:Why is iPad so much better than iPhone? by Anonymous Coward · 2013-10-22 09:06 · Score: 5, Informative

The issue is only mute if you broke the speaker and don't have headphones.
Re:Why is iPad so much better than iPhone? by dslmodem · 2013-10-22 09:16 · Score: 2

The SXTZ display: 10.1". iPad Air display: 9.7"
If you won't care about the extra 128x336 pixels, I won't care about the extra 0.4 inches... Or the likely $100 price difference...
your math is horrible.
2048x1536=(1920+128)x(1200+336)=1920x1200+128x1200+1920x336+128x336

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Re:Why is iPad so much better than iPhone? by Hamsterdan · 2013-10-22 10:02 · Score: 1

Most manufactureres tend to exagerrate battery life, but Apple tends to underestimate it on most of their devices

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Re:Why is iPad so much better than iPhone? by spire3661 · 2013-10-22 10:31 · Score: 1

Nope. We'll never again see a Wintel paradigm in computing. The field has way too many large players now.

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Re:Why is iPad so much better than iPhone? by MikShapi · 2013-10-22 11:23 · Score: 1

As far as Apple is concerned, NFC is the wrong horse to bet on.
There's a simple strategy behind it (which I, personally, agree with).
They purge all the single-purpose technologies, in favor of multi-purpose ones. Examples:
Ethernet (a plug that only does one thing) - gone. Your ethernet cable goes through an adapter to USB3 or thunderbolt.
VGA/DVI/Display port - (ditto) - gone in favor of a multi-purpose bus.
Flash cards (a slot that only does one thing) - not on the 11'' airs. use USB3.
SATA - why do we need a storage-only bus?
This is why products like the macbook air are what they are - massively powerful beasts in a tiny package. Because they stripped out all the redundant dead weight.
If you're designing the mac that will ship in 2015 right now, explain to me why you need an NFC radio. It's redundant dead weight.
You already have a radio that does this in there. It's called bluetooth 4.
Apple doesn't commit to technologies on a whim. They know which technology will (eventually) end up doing near-field... and are putting one foot ahead of the other to get there their way.

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Re:Why is iPad so much better than iPhone? by narcc · 2013-10-22 11:28 · Score: 3, Insightful

Is it "Welcome to Slashdot"?

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Re:Why is iPad so much better than iPhone? by MtHuurne · 2013-10-22 11:33 · Score: 1

Ars recently had an article about Google replacing open source Android core apps with proprietary ones.
Re:Why is iPad so much better than iPhone? by NIK282000 · 2013-10-22 14:37 · Score: 1

Wait, you're fighting FOR a lower resolution? This is why we cant have nice things!

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Re:Why is iPad so much better than iPhone? by CanHasDIY · 2013-10-23 04:14 · Score: 1

Um... what does the technologies put in Mac computers have to do with iPads?
Taking the bait, I see one major issue with relegating all types of connections to dongles that feed into a single port: There will, inevitably, not be enough ports for all the stuff you want to connect.
Of course, in fairness, that's not an issue exclusive to Apple products.

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Re:Why is iPad so much better than iPhone? by locopuyo · 2013-10-23 05:14 · Score: 1

An iPad screen is viewed within arms length. The distortion at that distance is easily apparent to even sub 20-20 vision users.

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Re:Why is iPad so much better than iPhone? by Plumpaquatsch · 2013-10-23 05:50 · Score: 1

The OP said the iPad seem so much better then anything out there.
My point is both tablets are in the same class. Not arguing the new iPad edges out the competition. It should, it's the newest high end tablet, but it's not revolutionary or anything. It will quickly lose the spec crown when the next round of high end Android tablets come out.
So because the Sony is only a little thicker and a little heavier, but not even close in other specs,it's basically as good as the iPad Air?

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Re:Why is iPad so much better than iPhone? by Plumpaquatsch · 2013-10-23 06:27 · Score: 1

They sound pretty much the same to me, slight difference in resolution and since manufacturers always exaggerate battery life it's safe to assume 8 hours is reasonable for the iPad Air as well.
So because Sony won't even tell us what battery life their tablet has (apart from vague promises about "Significantly improve battery life" when not doing anything), you claim that the new iPad Air has just the same battery life, despite the old one outlasting the Sony in all tests, calling the Sony's mediocre at best? Not to mention it's slow and finicky charging (using your beloved Micro-USB) - for which you have to peel it out of the waterproof cover each time.

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Re:Why is iPad so much better than iPhone? by exomondo · 2013-10-23 09:45 · Score: 1

Oh but I bet you the iPad fanboys (note i said 'fanboys', not 'users' because not every iPad user is a rabid fanboy) will tell you all about how they can tell the difference between 2048x1536 and 1920x1200 at arms length distance but that they can't notice any distortion in the scaled picture at that distance, it's their selective iVision.
Re:Why is iPad so much better than iPhone? by JesseMcDonald · 2013-10-23 09:54 · Score: 1

If you're designing the mac that will ship in 2015 right now, explain to me why you need an NFC radio. ... You already have a radio that does this in there. It's called bluetooth 4.
NFC is Near Field Communication. It's used for things you wouldn't want to be accessible from a distance, like smartcards, and for establishing authentication through close proximity. Ironically, Bluetooth has far too much range to be considered a reasonable replacement for NFC. It also requires both devices to have an active power supply, whereas NFC only requires power for the reader, which induces enough power in passive devices (like smartcards and tags) to activate their NFC functions.
As for whether anyone actually needs NFC... do we actually need any of this? Probably not. They're conveniences. But BT4 and NFC serve completely different functions. Neither one can serve as a replacement for the other.

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Re:Why is iPad so much better than iPhone? by exomondo · 2013-10-23 10:54 · Score: 1

that's just utterly ridiculous...even if Google stopped work on it today, the OS community and the huge worldwide installed userbase would keep it going forever
No they won't, handset makers will simply replace it with something else, probably ChromeOS. Even if handset makers did decide to take on the immense task of maintaining and developing the whole operating system they would each have their own forks of it and the versions would diverge into a totally incompatible mess.
Same thing happened with Maemo/Meego and webOS, they were hailed as brilliant open operating systems yet when left to the community they stagnated and are effectively extinct now.

just like Linus did with unix.
Linus didn't do anything with unix.

Unix Workstation by psergiu · 2013-10-22 06:37 · Score: 4, Interesting

Apple haters or not, the saddest thing to realize is that the only UNIX(R) Workstation on the market is now the Mac. As Apple is the only UNIX 03 certification holder who is still making desktops and laptops. All the other UNIX 03 hardware produced at the moment is Datacenter-only rackmounted servers.

So $2999 for a powerful UNIX(R) Workstation is a fair price.

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Re:Unix Workstation by kthreadd · 2013-10-22 06:45 · Score: 1

Well, you could just take any just about any workstation and put Solaris on it.
Re:Unix Workstation by Anonymous Coward · 2013-10-22 06:46 · Score: 5, Insightful

What use do you have for a UNIX(R) Workstation when you can use Linux or Freebsd for some UNIX-like goodness? Are their compatibility issues with something you work with?
Re:Unix Workstation by Anonymous Coward · 2013-10-22 06:47 · Score: 1

Wouldn't your same argument be just as valid if you said "So $100,000 for a powerful UNIX(R) Workstation is a fair price"?
Re:Unix Workstation by stewsters · 2013-10-22 06:51 · Score: 5, Funny

Forget the workstation, I'm thinking of getting a couple of the mac pros and putting them in a rack.
Re:Unix Workstation by Anonymous Coward · 2013-10-22 06:55 · Score: 5, Funny

Well, you could just take any just about any workstation and put Solaris on it.
then you'd have 2 problems
Re:Unix Workstation by Anonymous Coward · 2013-10-22 06:56 · Score: 5, Funny

What use do you have for a UNIX(R) Workstation when you can use Linux or Freebsd for some UNIX-like goodness?
Chicks dig Unix certification.
Re:Unix Workstation by Anonymous Coward · 2013-10-22 07:12 · Score: 1

I was thinking that too, until I found this: http://docs.oracle.com/cd/E23824_01/html/E24456/desktop-123.html
It ships with GNOME 2.30. It is UNIX. It has ZFS. DTrace. Zones. A full GNU stack.
This could actually work as a really good desktop while the Linux distributions sort their mess out.
Re:Unix Workstation by GodfatherofSoul · 2013-10-22 07:18 · Score: 2

Imagine a Beowulf cluster of THOSE! Especially on a sausage pizza...mmmm....

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Re:Unix Workstation by psergiu · 2013-10-22 07:28 · Score: 1

Any UNIX(R) admins with mod points in here ? Mod parent up :)

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Re:Unix Workstation by psergiu · 2013-10-22 07:32 · Score: 1

Considering that the last SGI, HP, IBM and Sun workstations used to cost way more than that for the entry models, i do say it's a fair price.
And as perpenso mentioned in a post below, you are able to get a mac mini starting at $600 as a cheaper option.

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Re:Unix Workstation by psergiu · 2013-10-22 07:42 · Score: 1

Oh, thanks !
http://www-03.ibm.com/systems/power/hardware/720/browse_aix.html
I wonder if the base price includes PowerVM or a graphics card.
At 37 to 42 dB, the tower is a bit on the noisy side - on par with the old "tower" Mac Pro.

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Re:Unix Workstation by mlts · 2013-10-22 08:46 · Score: 1

The ironic thing is when one compares, feature by feature, Apple hardware against workstations by Dell or HP, Apple is actually slightly cheaper. Yes, it is more expensive than consumer level PCs, but with all the items a Mac tends to have, comparing Apple hardware to its peers is a different story.
Of course, who knows how this will hold true come the new Mac Pro form factor. They are more expensive than the previous generation, and stuff like working with FPGA boards is out of the question unless you want to work with a limited set of the PCIe lanes that are on a Thunderbolt breakout box.
Re:Unix Workstation by Hognoxious · 2013-10-22 08:50 · Score: 1

Unless you use regular expressions.

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Re:Unix Workstation by stenvar · 2013-10-22 09:12 · Score: 1

Most of the people (CS researchers, students, scientists, etc.) who used to use UNIX have pretty much moved to Linux. So whether OS X is technically UNIX or not really doesn't matter much.
Re:Unix Workstation by aliquis · 2013-10-22 09:14 · Score: 1

Those comparisons always only go one way though.
One have to find a PC with similar or better spec in all cases and if necessary upgrade it until it beat the mac.
It's not ok to pick an adequate or "as good" PC of whatever configuration or pick some PC configuration and ask what macs offer at the same price or what a similar mac would cost because then it all breaks down.
At least that was the case with the old Mac Pro which has very weird hardware configuration which didn't make much sense at all and wasn't like average PCs.
Re:Unix Workstation by aliquis · 2013-10-22 09:15 · Score: 1

It ships with GNOME 2.30. It is UNIX. It has ZFS. DTrace. Zones. A full GNU stack.
This could actually work as a really good desktop while the Linux distributions sort their mess out.
Yeah. Because Solaris is such an amazing desktop, surely much better than the most popular and common Linux distributions ..
Re:Unix Workstation by AmiMoJo · 2013-10-22 09:20 · Score: 1

So $2999 for a powerful UNIX(R) Workstation is a fair price.
Even assuming we agree with that you can't seriously claim that the price of a larger SSD or more RAM are fair.

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Re:Unix Workstation by unixisc · 2013-10-22 09:33 · Score: 1

I noticed that as well. $3k does seem steep for a workstation these days, but the spec somewhat justifies it. So one will have this fantastic Xeon workstation (why not use i7?), 12GM DRAM, 2GB VRAM, 256GM SSD, et al all put together to form an OS X workstation that easily eclipses the HP 9000s & SPARCstations of old. Just wonder whether the engineering market is still there for it??
Re:Unix Workstation by unixisc · 2013-10-22 09:37 · Score: 1

What use do you have for a UNIX(R) Workstation when you can use Linux or Freebsd for some UNIX-like goodness? Are their compatibility issues with something you work with?
OS X is FreeBSD in the sense that you seem to be suggesting here - I doubt that the difference b/w the XNU and the FBSD kernels will make a major difference here, aside from the UI and the Quartz display manager.
Re:Unix Workstation by K.+S.+Kyosuke · 2013-10-22 09:53 · Score: 1

I wonder if the base price includes PowerVM or a graphics card.
I wish I knew. The last Unix box I had was an Indy. Probably not the first thing, though - the Specifications page lists all of "PowerVM {Express|Standard|Enterprise} Edition" as "(optional)". According to the fine documentation, you can order "POWER GXT145 PCI Express Graphics" for your machine. If you want to run AIX on the box, I have no idea what the AIX level support is for this hardware. Forget CAD systems, though, this doesn't look like that kind of graphics hardware.
What is a "base price" for these machines, anyway? :)

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Ezekiel 23:20
Re:Unix Workstation by c++0xFF · 2013-10-22 11:08 · Score: 1

That's why I run /.*nix/ on my workstations.
Re:Unix Workstation by dfghjk · 2013-10-22 14:23 · Score: 1

What an ignorant perspective. Tribalists will say anything.
Re:Unix Workstation by unixisc · 2013-10-23 03:28 · Score: 1

Well, if one is talking about an x64 desktop/workstation OS w/ the above, PC-BSD is there. But I think the GP was also referring to the death of SPARC workstations, which would be relevant in this discussion, since we are talking about XEON based workstations from Apple w/ configurations that would be typical of high end UnixStations from the likes of Sun, HP or IBM. THAT segment seems dead, and the vendors/customers who depended on that have either moved to Lintel or Wintel, or they've moved to Apple. I agree w/ the OP on this one - this seems to be the only real UnixStation today in the market - running Quartz over FBSD/XNU and w/ workstation like configuration.
Re:Unix Workstation by unixisc · 2013-10-23 03:33 · Score: 1

Are there any Itanium based workstations out there? Any Itanium based workstation running something like FreeBSD or Debian Linux - the only 2 FOSS Unixes out there, and w/ a similar configuration, could probably do wonders. Of course, the software that it'd need would probably have to be some sort of FOSS as well, so that it could be compiled to run on it. That would be the only other CPU other than POWER that could be competive w/ the new Mac Pro

Re:Mini seems to go without M7 ... by Anonymous Coward · 2013-10-22 06:38 · Score: 5, Informative

Not true... http://www.apple.com/ipad-mini/specs/ specifically lists the chip as: "A7 chip with 64-bit architecture and M7 motion coprocessor"

A shot at other OS, computer *and* device makers by perpenso · 2013-10-22 06:42 · Score: 5, Interesting

iWork is now free, and include collaboration features that MS Office will have a hell of a time trying to match.

-jcr

A major shot at other operating system, computer *and* mobile device makers. Free (as in beer) major OS update (computers) and free productivity apps (computers and mobile devices). Bundling the productivity apps with new computers and mobile devices will help Apple maintain their price points. Once again, Apple demonstrates that they are a hardware company at heart, that software is a tool to sell that hardware.

Re:Built-in apps by mosb1000 · 2013-10-22 06:45 · Score: 1

They are free with all new macs or iOS devices.

Looking forward to iPad nano by oo_00 · 2013-10-22 06:46 · Score: 2, Funny

Oh, wait...

Re:Free Free Free by iroll · 2013-10-22 06:46 · Score: 1

Exactly! Free stuff can't possibly be as good as stuff that costs $200.

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Repetition does not transform a lie into the truth. - FDR

Re:Free Free Free by kthreadd · 2013-10-22 06:46 · Score: 1

They will just make it up in volume.

4K display, anyone? by timeOday · 2013-10-22 06:48 · Score: 1

I was really hoping the new MacBook pro would support a new 4k external display. With Thunderbolt 2 making it in, my question now is whether it will have the graphics grunt to handle it, and what sort of 4K display they are releasing in tandem with the Mac Pro?

Re:4K display, anyone? by spire3661 · 2013-10-22 07:22 · Score: 1

Wait, they are working on Thunderbolt 2? Thunderbolt 1 is a huge market failure. You can barely find any thunderbolt parts, much less any that are reasonably priced.

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Good-bye
Re:4K display, anyone? by psergiu · 2013-10-22 07:56 · Score: 1

I am having some memory flashbacks to when people were saying about the same things about USB.
Thunderbolt *IS* PCI Express. Interfacing any PCI hardware with Thunderbolt is extremely simple from the manufacturer's p.o.v. - it's a single bridge chip. Then you use the same drivers you used for the internal PCI/PCIe card.

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Re:4K display, anyone? by timeOday · 2013-10-22 08:33 · Score: 1

I largely agree, since I am currently using one of the early Thunderbolt MacBook Pros, and there has been extremely little available for Thunderbolt for most of that time. But Apple is the only major player advancing 4k desktop displays at the moment, and they are using Thunderbolt 2 to do that.
Re:4K display, anyone? by dprimary · 2013-10-22 10:25 · Score: 1

The Mac Book Pro will do 4k at 24 frames
Re:4K display, anyone? by nojayuk · 2013-10-22 12:13 · Score: 1

Are Apple selling 4k displays? The only "major players" I know of with 4k displays on the market right now are Asus and Sony. The review articles I've seen on them have tended to concentrate on gamer applications with high-end video card setups (multiple Titans and the like) in PCs running Windows; I don't think I've seen anyone demoing Apple kit driving 4k displays.
Re:4K display, anyone? by timeOday · 2013-10-22 12:38 · Score: 1

4k was touted in the original Mac Pro announcement, and it has two high-end graphics cards. That's why I was hoping for the announcement of a 4k Apple display today. I guess it didn't happen. In fact here's a wired article from 30 minutes ago on the very topic. I use my current MacBook Pro on a 30" Dell monitor so I am not a brand purist. But since a 4k display on a laptop is cutting edge I thought a vendor-supported configuration would be smoothest. I've had pretty spotty results driving dual dvi max resolution from laptops in the past - not just performance, but even supporting it at all.
Re:4K display, anyone? by nojayuk · 2013-10-22 13:01 · Score: 1

There's an HP box which is built around supporting Red 4k camera video; apparently it uses a single commodity video card, nothing really top-end but it can drive a 4k display and a couple of 27" 2560x1440 displays at the same time under Windows 8. Here's a link to a blog entry about it with some video.

Dev only needs mini to test 64-bit A7/M7 ... by perpenso · 2013-10-22 06:50 · Score: 1

Not true... http://www.apple.com/ipad-mini/specs/ specifically lists the chip as: "A7 chip with 64-bit architecture and M7 motion coprocessor"

Thank you. I am thrilled to be wrong. I only noticed the M7 being mentioned with respect to the iPad Air during the presentation, I read too much into that.

So a developer only needs to get a mini to test 64-bit code and A7/M7 functionality.

Re:Dev only needs mini to test 64-bit A7/M7 ... by hazydave · 2013-10-23 08:07 · Score: 1

Not surprising... this looks to be a perhaps customized version of an NXP embedded ARM processor, the M7 that is. If I'm paying as little as $3.50 for these, I can only imagine how cheap they are for Apple. And this should make practical a slew of applications that could be done without it, but would likely run down your battery in no time flat. The little IOP can sample and cook data for the main SOC all day without using much juice.

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-Dave Haynie
Re:Dev only needs mini to test 64-bit A7/M7 ... by perpenso · 2013-10-23 11:24 · Score: 2

I'm eager to see how less frequent polling of satellites and dead reckoning with the M7 in-between will work for backpacking. A couple of years ago I experimented while going on walks near home and I estimate that relevant GPS apps would drain my 4S in about four hours. When I actually go camping and backpacking I download topo maps but don't use the phone for much beyond dropping waypoints on the car and the campsite. My phone is normally powered down and inside a dry bag in my day pack. I go old school for navigation and use a map and compass. The phone is there as a backup, or more likely a camera.

thin thing by swampfriend · 2013-10-22 06:50 · Score: 4, Funny

wouldn't a better name have been "ipod hair"

Re:thin thing by Guy+Harris · 2013-10-22 08:19 · Score: 2

wouldn't a better name have been "ipod hair"
I really do not want an iPod, or even an iPad, that I have to shave.

Mac PRO starts at 3K only 256GB storage by Joe_Dragon · 2013-10-22 06:51 · Score: 1

Mac PRO starts at 3K only 256GB storage base.

Imac's at half the price have X4 storage base.

based on new laptop pricing looking at an $800.00 add on to get 1TB build in.

Re:Mac PRO starts at 3K only 256GB storage by perpenso · 2013-10-22 07:14 · Score: 1

For many the internal storage often doesn't need to do much more than boot the operating system, provide VM swap and host apps. A typical user will probably have an external RAID to do their work on. Others will get the 512GB or 1TB upgrades.
Re:Mac PRO starts at 3K only 256GB storage by Anonymous Coward · 2013-10-22 07:15 · Score: 4, Informative

The Mac Pro is intended to be a graphics/video workstation. You use external disks to hold your data because you have massive amount of data you need to deal with.
No internal drive is big enough for the workloads it is intended to be used for, you attach a external cage with a bunch of disks via thunderbolt or a SAN.
Re:Mac PRO starts at 3K only 256GB storage by psergiu · 2013-10-22 07:58 · Score: 1

Spinning HDD in iMac vs 1.21 Jigabytes/sec PCIe SSD in Mac Pro.

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Re:Mac PRO starts at 3K only 256GB storage by AmiMoJo · 2013-10-22 08:55 · Score: 1

Even so, for 3K a mere 256GB SSD is stingy. Similarly priced machines are coming with 512GB of more now. It's also not that much for a system drive + apps. I recently installed an embedded OS cross-development platform at work which was over 100GB all said and done. Even amateur video editors (the pros use custom Windows based machines supplied by the same people who do the software, basically appliances) would benefit from keeping the stuff they are working with on the fast SSD and then moving it to slower HDD bulk storage when done.

--
const int one = 65536; (Silvermoon, Texture.cs)
SJW, n: "Someone I don't like, and by the way I'm a fuckwit" - AC
Re:Mac PRO starts at 3K only 256GB storage by Macgrrl · 2013-10-22 10:03 · Score: 1

There are decent external drive enclosures with good power and heat management and excellent access to hot swap drives as required. For example, check out Synology.

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Sara
Designer, Gamer, Macgrrl in an XP World
Re:Mac PRO starts at 3K only 256GB storage by dk20 · 2013-10-22 11:56 · Score: 1

So after buying a "high performance graphics workstation" one should also buy a high performance NAS?
Is that the apple model?
Re:Mac PRO starts at 3K only 256GB storage by unixisc · 2013-10-23 05:54 · Score: 1

Internal storage is a PCIe SSD, which won't be cheap (as opposed to SATA SSD, which doesn't make as much sense than going full HDD). So if users need more than 256GB, then it's probably a good idea to have a 4TB drive connected to the Mac Pro via USB. Note that since we're talking PCIe as opposed to SATA, the drive bay is irrelevant here, since it's only needed as a compatibility feature w/ the old SATA HDDs. But PCIe needs a different compatibility - of the flash memory w/ the PCIe bus.

Re:Only 16GB by mjperson · 2013-10-22 06:53 · Score: 1

The new iPad Mini comes in 16, 32, 64, AND 128 GB models. Just like the full-sized ones.

$2600 to get a laptop with better then Intel video by Joe_Dragon · 2013-10-22 06:54 · Score: 1

$2600 to get a laptop with better then Intel video??

they used to have the $2000 ones with better video but now

Incompetent Press by SuperKendall · 2013-10-22 06:55 · Score: 3, Insightful

Not to bash the iPhone, but how is it that Apple seems to be so much ahead of the pack when it comes to the iPad but the iPhone seems to be just another high-end smartphone?

It seems that way because the press is incapable of understanding what it means that both iPad and iPhone now ship with a 64-bit processor, and full-time motion chip - as well as strong BTLE support, something Android has only recently begun to adopt.

The iPhone 5s is leading all of the other smartphones on the market today in terms of technology - just not in screen size.

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"There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley

Re:Incompetent Press by purpledinoz · 2013-10-22 07:26 · Score: 5, Funny

Sweet, 64-bit processor. Now I can have more than 4 billion friends on facebook!
Re:Incompetent Press by ArcadeMan · 2013-10-22 07:45 · Score: 1

This has to be the most on-topic, relevant and yet funny post about 64-bit processors.

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Get free satoshi (Bitcoin) and Dogecoins
Re:Incompetent Press by AmiMoJo · 2013-10-22 08:42 · Score: 1

I don't think you understand what it means.
64 bit - better performance, but it's still fewer cores and lower performance than high end Android devices. In any case, games look nice on both platforms.
Full-time motion chip - Lower power version of what we already have, so it can maybe replace some Bluetooth sports/health apps but so far it hasn't done much. Some of the suggested uses are laughable because Android has been doing them for years, e.g. turn phone over to mute or enhance GPS precision.
BTLE - Okay, yeah, Apple got there first.
On the other hand the screen is still SD, not even 720p. No NFC, which has actual practical uses like sharing, tags and payments. Not waterproof or ruggedized. No 1080p video output or MirrorLink support. I have not even started on the software.
That's why people say it's mid-range, although these days even the mid-range Android phones like the GS3 are considerably better spec'ed.

--
const int one = 65536; (Silvermoon, Texture.cs)
SJW, n: "Someone I don't like, and by the way I'm a fuckwit" - AC
Re: Incompetent Press by BorgDrone · 2013-10-22 09:09 · Score: 2, Interesting

64 bit - better performance, but it's still fewer cores and lower performance than high end Android devices.
I'm assuming you're referring to the snapdragon 800, which seems to be the top performing SoC in Android devices at the moment. Have you seen the benchmarks ?
The dual-core 1.3Ghz A7 whoops the quad-core 2.4Ghz Snapdragon 800's ass. Which just shows how awesome Apple's chip designers are.
Re:Incompetent Press by drfuchs · 2013-10-22 09:18 · Score: 1

Well, 2 billion, actually. They forgot to use "unsigned".
Re:Incompetent Press by idontgno · 2013-10-22 11:28 · Score: 1

That's OK. You can use the other 2 billion for your negative friends.

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Re: Incompetent Press by narcc · 2013-10-22 11:38 · Score: 1

I thought specs didn't matter?

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Required reading for internet skeptics
Re:Incompetent Press by Dixie_Flatline · 2013-10-23 02:50 · Score: 1

Go to AnandTech and look at the benchmarks for the A7. It is *by far* the fastest processor currently on the market (other than the Intel that isn't actually in anything). It clocks lower and has fewer cores, but still wildly outperforms anything inside a Samsung right now. The Snapdragons can't quite keep up.
And, actually, if you look at those benchmarks, you'll also realise that the iPhone 5 (and the A6 inside it) still come in near the top of the pack, despite being a year old.
There are plenty of reasons to not like Apple hardware, but performance and performance per watt aren't among them.

why no Fusion Drive choice for latops? by Joe_Dragon · 2013-10-22 06:56 · Score: 1

1TB max is low and 256GB base is small.

Also roaming costs, low caps, speed caped wifi makes cloud use not that ideal way to work.

Re:why no Fusion Drive choice for latops? by UnknowingFool · 2013-10-22 09:31 · Score: 1

Every single one of your posts is a complaint about every single product that Apple has that doesn't fit your specific needs. Apple is not making a product for you. A Mac Pro is not a consumer desktop. A MacBook Air is not a gaming laptop. An iPad is not a development machine. Get over it and buy something else. I don't own a tablet because I don't want one. I don't post on every single Apple iPad story about how they don't last a month on a single charge like a Kindle can.

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Well, there's spam egg sausage and spam, that's not got much spam in it.

A $600 Mac mini is also UNIX(R) by perpenso · 2013-10-22 07:04 · Score: 3

Apple haters or not, the saddest thing to realize is that the only UNIX(R) Workstation on the market is now the Mac. As Apple is the only UNIX 03 certification holder who is still making desktops and laptops. All the other UNIX 03 hardware produced at the moment is Datacenter-only rackmounted servers.

So $2999 for a powerful UNIX(R) Workstation is a fair price.

A $600 Mac mini is also UNIX(R) and for many UNIX(R) users it is quite usable. Not all UNIX(R) users need a *high performance* workstation.

Re:A $600 Mac mini is also UNIX(R) by psergiu · 2013-10-22 07:26 · Score: 1

You're absolutely right. I do have a mac mini and it does everything i need it for. But like the most family car owners who dream of having a muscle car, mac mini owners dream of getting a Mac Pro - even if they don't need it.
I think mac mini is the cheapest UNIX(R) workstation there ever was.
Even the SGI Indy in the basic configuration (16Mb ram, 8bit 2D graphics) was incredibly expensive when new.

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Re:A $600 Mac mini is also UNIX(R) by r_jensen11 · 2013-10-22 08:52 · Score: 1

But like the most family car owners who dream of having a muscle car, mac mini owners dream of getting a Mac Pro - even if they don't need it.
[Citation needed]
I'm going to go out on a limb here and venture to guess that I'm like most Mac Mini owners in the sense that I already had a working monitor, keyboard, and mouse, and determined that spending an extra $500-$1000 for an integrated display and couldn't care less about the Mac Pro because I'm not even close to taxing the Mini with my day-to-day usage (hence no noticable increase in value.)

Re:Free Free Free by bearinboots · 2013-10-22 07:05 · Score: 1

Apple software exists to drive hardware sales -- the exact opposite of the Microsoft business models. It's a smart move.

Mavericks is free? Hmmm... by umafuckit · 2013-10-22 07:07 · Score: 1

I recall paying for my upgrades to Snow Leopard and Mountain Lion, so if Mavericks is free then what's Apple getting out of this? Are they slipping in some iOSification of the desktop, or other bullshit like that? I've looked at Apple's pages on Mavericks and I can't see anything overtly dodgy, but also I don't believe there's such a thing as a free lunch...

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soylentnews.org

Re:Mavericks is free? Hmmm... by fox1324 · 2013-10-22 07:18 · Score: 4, Informative

Apple makes their money primarily from selling hardware. By making OS updates free it makes moving to the Mac ecosystem that much more attractive.
Re:Mavericks is free? Hmmm... by Anonymous Coward · 2013-10-22 07:19 · Score: 1

If you held out until Lion was available, Apple would send you the Snow Leopard upgrade disk for free. Frankly, I'm happy with SL, but may move to Mavericks since it's a gimmie.
I've yet to pay for an OS upgrade on my Mac Mini.
Re:Mavericks is free? Hmmm... by umafuckit · 2013-10-22 07:56 · Score: 1

Yeah, I get that, but the earlier upgrades were pretty cheap so it didn't feel like money was an object when it came to upgrading your OS. I could see they were doing what you say: provide a cheap, possibly loss-making, OS upgrade in order to boost the ecosystem as a whole. It's the fact that this one actually is free that made me pause.

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soylentnews.org
Re:Mavericks is free? Hmmm... by MaWeiTao · 2013-10-22 08:04 · Score: 1

I think it comes down to the fact that Microsoft just released Windows 8.1. Like all previous service pack updates, substantial or otherwise, this one is free. The difference here is that the release of that has hit so close to the release of Mavericks. In that light, charging for an OSX update that doesn't feature too many obvious changes likely wouldn't go over well amongst many. So Apple traded some minor profit for good publicity.
Re:Mavericks is free? Hmmm... by boristhespider · 2013-10-22 08:04 · Score: 2

I've been staying on SL deliberately since Lion came along and broke my Rosetta. Now I don't have anything needing Rosetta but I am increasingly finding that new programs I want only work on Lion and above. So I'm going to upgrade to Mavericks in a few weeks when the first major bug release comes along and means we'll avoid bricking our machines. I'm spending the evening backing up my home directory, and my SL DVD is sitting nearby so I can get straight back to where I am if it all goes horribly wrong.
Re:Mavericks is free? Hmmm... by bill_mcgonigle · 2013-10-22 08:09 · Score: 1

if Mavericks is free then what's Apple getting out of this? Are they slipping in some iOSification of the desktop
Yeah, they've got the whole app store thing in the desktop OS now, and they take a cut of each purchase, so to *not* give a free upgrade to a user of an earlier system, they have to bet that the $30 they'd get for the download (or was it $20 last time?) is more than the commission on all the apps that that user might buy over the life of his computer.
Plus the cache' of having free OS upgrades as a selling point for its users. Just keep buying new hardware and MacDaddy will take care of you.
I know I wasn't alone in saying here that Apple should give away the OS 5 years ago (back when they were quibbling about some driver update they couldn't send out because of accounting recognition or some other such BS) but I have to admit, they've monetized the process successfully.

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Re:Mavericks is free? Hmmm... by mordejai · 2013-10-22 08:34 · Score: 2, Informative

Just the same as Mavericks, only you have to enter your CREDIT CARD INFORMATION to create an Apple ID.
Re:Mavericks is free? Hmmm... by davidbrit2 · 2013-10-22 08:36 · Score: 1

Increasing goodwill to sell more hardware, and burning a bit of revenue to rake MS over the coals a little.
Re:Mavericks is free? Hmmm... by mlts · 2013-10-22 08:53 · Score: 1

I think Apple is going with the razor and blade model. The OS with the store comes at no cost because it helps sell the hardware, while the money coming in will be from the App Store.
So, it pays Apple to get people onto the same version of OS X, just so they can push store changes out and entice more developers to the platform.
All and all, a win/win/win for all parties involved. $0 upgrades are a benefit, developers get more people who can run their programs, and Apple gets more money from the 30% cut from people buying stuff.
Re:Mavericks is free? Hmmm... by umafuckit · 2013-10-22 09:19 · Score: 1

So, it pays Apple to get people onto the same version of OS X, just so they can push store changes out and entice more developers to the platform.
Yes, that certainly makes sense. After all, it's been the successful working model on the iPhone and iPad. I think I'll whack Mavericks onto my media centre Mini and see how it goes. Getting onto my laptop will cost me $20 because I'll have to upgrade TotalSpaces (unless there's a free version or Apple have produce a non-fucked version of multiple desktops).

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Re:Mavericks is free? Hmmm... by SpeZek · 2013-10-22 09:27 · Score: 1

I'm sticking with SL because Spaces and Expose are much more functional than Mission Control, I'm not coerced into giving my data to Apple's cloud, and it's just faster due to less bloat.
Re:Mavericks is free? Hmmm... by quacking+duck · 2013-10-22 09:43 · Score: 1

I think it comes down to the fact that Microsoft just released Windows 8.1. Like all previous service pack updates, substantial or otherwise, this one is free. The difference here is that the release of that has hit so close to the release of Mavericks. In that light, charging for an OSX update that doesn't feature too many obvious changes likely wouldn't go over well amongst many. So Apple traded some minor profit for good publicity.
The impression I got is that it's a semi-permanent change, though, i.e. future OSX upgrades would also be free.
It's actually a rather staggering amount of potential sales they're passing up on for this OSX version alone: close to $1 billion at the previous price of $20 (assuming 40-50 million Mavericks-capable Macs sold since 2007, given that Macs now have an installed base of 72 million, 28 million copies of Mountain Lion sold as of June excluding pre-installs).
Re:Mavericks is free? Hmmm... by pr0nbot · 2013-10-22 09:54 · Score: 1

It'll be free to get people like me who're still on older versions of the OS to upgrade, so they have fewer versions to support. I expect soon they'll announce no more support for Snow Leopard et al.
Re: Mavericks is free? Hmmm... by EGSonikku · 2013-10-22 10:35 · Score: 1

Not true:
http://support.apple.com/kb/HT2534

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Re:Mavericks is free? Hmmm... by sootman · 2013-10-22 12:15 · Score: 1

> ... and my SL DVD is sitting nearby so I can get straight
> back to where I am if it all goes horribly wrong.
You don't have a time machine drive? :-)

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Re:Mavericks is free? Hmmm... by boristhespider · 2013-10-23 06:40 · Score: 1

Actually no, I never went in for Time Machine.
Re:Mavericks is free? Hmmm... by boristhespider · 2013-10-23 06:44 · Score: 1

Never intended to make anyone cringe :) And I've never complained to a developer that the app doesn't run on Snow Leopard - it's my choice to do so, so it wouldn't really be fair to bitch that they're not wasting two months of their lives trying to implement a workaround for those lacking the new APIs. I suspect we'll see the free release of Mavericks does help kick people like me who are still on SL into a new system. In all honesty, while the price (or lack of it) obviously helps the timing is serendipitous -- the other day I started looking at upgrading to Mountain Lion so I can get updated or new apps that Snow Leopard doesn't support... and then Mavericks was released.
I've actually toyed with the idea of backing up my home directory and then installing a fresh copy of Snow Leopard and then a fresh install of Mavericks, if I'm honest. It takes a while to reinstall stuff -- particularly via Macports -- but I *would* have a totally clean installation. Probably a leftover of my days of swapping Windows 3.1 for 3.11 for 95 for 3.11 for 95 for 98 for 95 for 98SE for 2000 for 98SE (and rinse and repeat on those ones - I kept getting frustrated with 98SE's old-fashioned ways, and then frustrated that 2000 was too slow on my machine and, more importantly, couldn't play Thief...)
Re:Mavericks is free? Hmmm... by hazydave · 2013-10-23 07:33 · Score: 1

Yup... they're removing any barrier to the new OS, and thus, any good reason for older users not to upgrade. That may kill off some old hardware faster, if there are machines that can't be upgraded, also maybe a good thing in the short term. And they're giving Mac users a big warm and fuzzy smooch on the cheek, at the same time their main competition has been pushing an OS that practically no one likes, for $100+ a copy. They're looking at PC users and saying "come over here, we have cookies".

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-Dave Haynie

Hmm... by JustAnotherIdiot · 2013-10-22 07:15 · Score: 1

Apple also announced that the new version of Mac OS X (10.9 Mavericks) is available now and is free to all Mac OS X users

I'd check for a "Courtesy of the NSA" fine print.

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What do I know, I'm just an idiot, right?

Re:Only 16GB by spire3661 · 2013-10-22 07:25 · Score: 1

At $100 per breakpoint. I fucking hate how this came to be. No external storage AND pay through the nose for storage.

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Good-bye

Re: install on any machine by SpaceManFlip · 2013-10-22 07:28 · Score: 4, Informative

Not really true. It just needs special bootloaders to emulate Macs' EFI, and a few customized drivers, and a healthy disregard for EULAs.

Re:A shot at other OS, computer *and* device maker by Anonymous Coward · 2013-10-22 07:41 · Score: 1, Insightful

Then you're an idiot and need to learn how pricing works....i5, 8gb ram, aluminum case pc laptop on newegg RIGHT NOW, $400. Comes with windows, and then add office for $140 more? Ohhh....soooo much more $ than a Mac!!

Re:Memory options by Dzimas · 2013-10-22 07:45 · Score: 1

When is Apple going to join the 21st century on memory pricing. $100 per breakpoint is insane. 16 GB baseline is a joke at these premium prices. Attempting to get $100 for 32 GB is a giant fuck you.

Actually, they attempting to get $100 for a 16GB increase. The company doesn't need to reduce their margins unless there's market pressure to do so.

Getting to be too many models, again? by gman003 · 2013-10-22 07:47 · Score: 3, Interesting

Remember the mid-90s, when Apple had dozens upon dozens of Macintoshes, Power Macs, Quadras, and so on? And how one of the first things Jobs did when he returned was slash all of those, which put them back on the road to their current success?

Yeah, they're up to four different iPads now, all currently being sold. The iPad Mini, "iPad Mini with Retina", iPad 2, and iPad Air, and I'm sure they still have some "Fourth-Generation iPads" to sell off. Each of these has a few variants for WiFi/3G and storage. And they also have a trio of iPhones - the 4S, 5C and 5S - again with storage capacity variations.

On the desktop, a pair of laptops (the Macbook Air and Macbook Pro) with a few size options, and trio of desktops (Mini, iMac (two sizes) and Mac Pro) has worked pretty well for them. They really need to cut down on their other models - using the old iPhone as the "cheap" model worked, discontinuing the old one in favor of a low-cost second model would also have worked, but as it is I see little purpose to keeping both the 4S and 5C around. And for the iPad? A Mini and a Pro would have been fine. Google is actually being smarter than they are on this - they have a Nexus 7 and a Nexus 10, updated as needed. Clear product differentiation - you want a small, cheap tablet? Nexus 7. Larger and more powerful tablet? Nexus 10. Apple is less clear - their high-end "Mini" costs the same as their low-end "full-size". They could probably make the iPad models make sense (iPad Mini, iPad Pro Mini, iPad, iPad Pro), but the way they currently are is crap.

Re:Getting to be too many models, again? by Anonymous Coward · 2013-10-22 09:07 · Score: 1

Apple's finances as of today tell you how they've been doing over the last five years.
Loss of vision & strategic mis-steps take a while to show up.
Re:Getting to be too many models, again? by sootman · 2013-10-22 09:08 · Score: 3, Insightful

No, it's not the same, or even very confusing, because the differences are mostly binary. The Mac lineup in the mid-90s was indeed a mess. The models were randomly arranged and it was like "if you want the sunroof, you have to get the leather seats" with cars. Now, all the products are just the answer to a few questions:
Laptop: Super-thin, or powerful? Air: 11" or 13"? Pro: 13" or 15"? Retina or not? And then the typical speed/RAM/HD options.
iPad: they don't really expect people to buy the iPad 2. It's there for educational buyers, or the small handful of people who want a cheap 10" iPad. They aren't on the main iPad page, only on the "compare" page and in the store. (I don't even know if they actually have iPad 2s sitting out in the retail stores.)
Inventory of iPads that are, as of today, "old", will be cleared out quickly and never spoken of again. That leaves: 8" or 10"? Retina or not? 16/32/64 GB? 3G or WiFi-only? Four yes/no questions, the answer to each of which is pretty simple for most people, and in every case, "more costs more". Few people are so budget-constrained AND with such strong needs that they're really agonizing over "I want this capacity, but then I can't afford 3G..."
Phones: You want 2 tiers, Apple wants 3. For a while they had 2, at $199 and $99; now they have 3, at $199, $99, and $0. Not THAT confusing. The choices are: free and black, $99 fast and colorful and bigger screen, or $199, staid colors, and super powerful. Beyond that, you pick your carrier (duh) and capacity (if you're getting a non-$0 phone.)
Google isn't a big hardware maker. Neither is Amazon. It makes sense that they'd keep their lineups simple. Apple, on the other hand, makes all their money on hardware (note the free OS upgrade and free productivity apps, etc.) so naturally they want to appeal to as many people as possible, and give you the option to spend as much as you want. :-)

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Dear Slashdot: next time you want to mess with the site, add a rich-text editor for comments.
Re:Getting to be too many models, again? by gman003 · 2013-10-22 09:13 · Score: 3, Insightful

Yes, I agree that Apple isn't back at '95 levels yet. But the point is that they're sliding in that direction. They're gaining more and more models that don't seem to serve a strong purpose.
While the iPad line does boil down to a few simple choices, the *naming* of that line does not in any way indicate it. The Google comparison was just a demonstration that Google is managing a more Jobs-like naming convention than Apple is.
Re:Getting to be too many models, again? by dk20 · 2013-10-22 12:03 · Score: 1

BB's finances were strong at one point as well.
Re: Getting to be too many models, again? by RyuuzakiTetsuya · 2013-10-22 12:12 · Score: 1

The big question is why the hell do they still have the ipad 2 and the non retina mini at the same price?
Internally they're darn near the same. Minus the different display of course.

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Non impediti ratione cogitationus.
Re:Getting to be too many models, again? by EvanED · 2013-10-22 12:13 · Score: 2
The models were randomly arranged and it was like "if you want the sunroof, you have to get the leather seats" with cars
Wat? To my "PC"- and desktop-byased eyes, Apple has those kinds of things all over the place:
1. Want a big monitor for your iMac? You need a more powerful processor too. Want a more powerful GPU? You need a bigger screen.
2. Want a 7200 RPM or >1TB hard drive or 1TB SSD in your iMac instead of 5400? You need a 27" screen instead of 21.5"
3. Want a 1TB HDD or an SSD instead of a 500MB HDD in your Mini? You need a Core i7 instead of Core i5
4. Want a quad-core CPU in your Macbook Pro instead of dual-core? You need a 15" screen instead of 13".
5. Want >256GB SSD in your Macbook Pro? You need a faster CPU too
Re:Getting to be too many models, again? by hazydave · 2013-10-23 07:44 · Score: 1

Actually, with phones, Apple went directly from one tier to three-tier with the iPhone 4S... they offered the iPhone 4 at the $99 point and the iPhone 3GS at the $0 point. It was just that, since the iPhone 3GS was only for AT&T (GSM, and before T-Mo got involved), they didn't have that on Verizon or Sprint.
They are certainly upping the SKUs at a high rate: two iPhone 4S, five iPhones 5c, and nine iPhones 5s. But they have finally acknowledged, and rightly so, that the iPhone is a luxury item, and that pretty much makes it a fashion item. So while one size still apparently almost fits all, once finish clearly does not. Most other phone makers are not doing the "fashion statement" thing.... Nokia a bit, I guess, with their similar color selection.
And of course, the 5c isn't new, it's just the iPhone 5 cost reduced and put in a plastic case. This is what Apple's been doing, only now they're making more money at it and making it seem new. Targeting a different demographic than the high-end user. My college-age kids are both pushing for iPhones (where did I go wrong) for Christmas... the boy (first year Pharmacy school) wants the 5s, "because the new OS runs like crap on older models", the girl (second year Bio/Nursing) wants a 5c, "because they have pink".

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-Dave Haynie
Re: Getting to be too many models, again? by hazydave · 2013-10-23 07:55 · Score: 1

Apple's always had a little diversification in their Mac line... and generally much less than any major competitor. Today they're at an all-time low I think, far as models go, at least since laptops were possible. They nixed the 17" laptops, all laptops are SSD/no-optical now, etc. They still really doing just one iPhone per year... no good reason to stop making the old one if it's still selling. Contrast that to Samsung, who seems to have one new smartphone model per month. Same with tablets.
Apple's one-size-fits-all approach was good when they were the only one doing the job, and fine when they were the only ones doing the job well. But with other vendors building better devices, taking more risks, thus more innovation, they do at some point have to compete. Just being a fashion house isn't going to be enough forever. They're good at making each year's device "about twice as fast" as last year's... particularly when it comes to gaming. But that's about the only thing you can count on. Not enough for many users, who see larger screens, new I/O devices, built-in wacom digitizers, etc.
That's not to suggest Apple should make a radical change to the iPhone or iPad... and that's also not what anyone who's innovating does today. Rather, they try different things. So Samsung made a fairly predictable Galaxy S4, but they also followed it up with a few variations... a serious camera phone (Galaxy Zoom), the giant-screen S4, etc. They also pretty much created the "phablet" market, and made that work by adding the wacom, so a large phone screen could actually deliver tablet capabilities, despite your fingers still being the size they were last year. Apple needs to try some variations, try something new. They ultimately will have to something, whether that's experimenting on their own or copying the other guys. But I don't think they survive, not at their current "leader of the pack" levels anyway, if it's just about taking the best of Samsung or Motorola or HTC from this year into next year's devices.

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-Dave Haynie
Re:Getting to be too many models, again? by hazydave · 2013-10-23 07:56 · Score: 1

5c is just the 5 in a new case. It's supposed to appeal to a different market than the 5/5s did, expanding the reach of the iPhone a bit, perhaps. We'll see. It's hardly any risk, the design was paid for long ago, this is just packaging it a little cheaper. If it doesn't work, don't expect a colorful 5s-remake next year.

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-Dave Haynie
Re:Getting to be too many models, again? by hazydave · 2013-10-23 08:02 · Score: 1

Google introduced a small, powerful tablet last year: the Nexus 7. Apple introduced a less small, less powerful tablet last year: the iPad Mini. Sure, the new one is better, both of them. It has yet to be shown how the dual-core Mini compares in performance to the four-core Nexus 7.
I'm currently using a plenty fast Samsung Note 8.0... small enough, powerful enough for anything I'm currently doing on tablets. That's what really matters. Markedly better than the recently-dropped Asus Transformer that preceded it. And the real win on a small tablet is the "S-Pen", the wacom-style digitizer. Far more accuracy on-screen than a finger on a 10" tablet, so you're not suffering at all with the smaller screen, at least for interactive use. A bit small for reading my guitar music, but this may only be temporary, or maybe just for around the office. Best device ever for note-taking.

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-Dave Haynie

iPad 2? Why? by Cinder6 · 2013-10-22 07:51 · Score: 3, Interesting

It's somewhat baffling that anyone these days would want an iPad 2. The Mini outstrips it in every area but screen size, at the same price. I would also imagine that continuing to support it is obnoxious for developers.

Anyway, I was planning on buying the iPad Air, but the Mini is looking a lot more tempting, given that the only difference anymore is screen size. I just wish one of them had Touch ID.

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If you can't convince them, convict them.

Re:iPad 2? Why? by itsdapead · 2013-10-22 08:29 · Score: 2

It's somewhat baffling that anyone these days would want an iPad 2. The Mini outstrips it in every area but screen size, at the same price. I would also imagine that continuing to support it is obnoxious for developers.
I'm guessing that they've got a niche market for it that needs the screen size but doesn't want to pay for retina displays - probably schools.

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In a survey of 100 programmers, 111111 thought that duck-typing was a good idea.
Re:iPad 2? Why? by AmiMoJo · 2013-10-22 08:48 · Score: 3, Funny

Many people prefer a 7" tablet because it's about the right size to hold in one hand for long periods.

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const int one = 65536; (Silvermoon, Texture.cs)
SJW, n: "Someone I don't like, and by the way I'm a fuckwit" - AC
Re:iPad 2? Why? by Teckla · 2013-10-22 09:41 · Score: 1

It's somewhat baffling that anyone these days would want an iPad 2. The Mini outstrips it in every area but screen size, at the same price.
Eventually, you'll know why some people might choose the larger but lower spec iPad 2 over the iPad mini.
You'll also learn why people like the zoom button on browsers, why people like smartphones with large screens, etc.
Everyone figures it out eventually...
Re:iPad 2? Why? by Cinder6 · 2013-10-22 10:02 · Score: 1

I totally understand the appeal of a larger screen. My point was that, as an end-user, I can't foresee a scenario where I would opt for the iPad 2 over the Mini or the Air. If vision was an issue, I would still pay $100 more for the Air. Beyond the far better screen, it is also guaranteed to be supported longer than what is now a two-year-old device. Yes, it costs $100 more, but if $100 hurts that much, I probably shouldn't buy an iPad.
Everyone's mileage will vary, of course. That's just the way I see it.

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If you can't convince them, convict them.
Re:iPad 2? Why? by Just+Some+Guy · 2013-10-22 12:14 · Score: 1

A lot of people have kids, and that's $100 less for something that'll probably be dropped on the tile floor once or twice.

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Dewey, what part of this looks like authorities should be involved?

Re:Only 16GB by CastrTroy · 2013-10-22 07:53 · Score: 4, Informative

If it was at least linear, I could deal with it. Buy why does upgrading from 16 GB to 32 GB (an additional 16 GB) cost $100, while upgrading from 64 GB to 128 GB (an additional 64 GB) also cost $100? $100 for 64 GB extra is almost reasonable, assuming they are using quality NAND storage chips like you find on hard drives, and not the kind of stuff you find in SD cards. But $100 for 16 GB of storage is just robbery.

--

Anthropic principle: We see the universe the way it is because if it were different we would not be here to see it.

Re:Memory options by spire3661 · 2013-10-22 07:54 · Score: 1

Your statement wholly depends on what device you are talking about. For the 64 GB ipad my point remains.

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Good-bye

Re:$2600 to get a laptop with better then Intel vi by SighKoPath · 2013-10-22 08:04 · Score: 1

Well, Intel's Iris Pro reportedly has performance similar to the nVIDIA GT 640M, with significantly lower power consumption. It's far better than Intel's previous integrated graphics offerings.

Can we please get a reasonabley priced laptop by Anonymous Coward · 2013-10-22 08:04 · Score: 1

With more than 1366x768 resolution. Fuck laptops suck.
I don't want an I7 to get the pixels. I'm not playing games. I just want text to look nice while I'm coding.

Re:Can we please get a reasonabley priced laptop by suso · 2013-10-22 08:06 · Score: 1

With more than 1366x768 resolution. Fuck laptops suck.
I don't want an I7 to get the pixels. I'm not playing games. I just want text to look nice while I'm coding.
You are clearly Apple's target market. They should listen to you.
Re:Can we please get a reasonabley priced laptop by wonkey_monkey · 2013-10-22 09:03 · Score: 1

Can we please get a reasonabley priced laptop with more than 1366x768 resolution.
If by "reasonably priced" you mean "for the same price as a 1366x768 laptop" then no, of course not. More pixels cost more. They are also not what your average user is bothered about, so manufacturers won't waste money by putting high-res screens on otherwise budget laptops.
Life's not fair. Get over it.

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systemd is Roko's Basilisk.

Re:Memory options by bill_mcgonigle · 2013-10-22 08:10 · Score: 1

When is Apple going to join the 21st century on memory pricing.

Why would they? People pay it.

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My God, it's Full of Source!
OUTSIDE_IP=$(dig +short my.ip @outsideip.net)

Re:A shot at other OS, computer *and* device maker by AmiMoJo · 2013-10-22 08:13 · Score: 2

Ahem, I think you will find Google has been doing this for years. Free (as in beer and open source) OS upgrades for Nexus devices and free productivity apps for all platforms.

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const int one = 65536; (Silvermoon, Texture.cs)
SJW, n: "Someone I don't like, and by the way I'm a fuckwit" - AC

Re:A shot at other OS, computer *and* device maker by Anonymous Coward · 2013-10-22 08:14 · Score: 2, Insightful

You're an idiot if you think nobody's seen these selective 'comparisons' before. Sure, you might have an aluminum case and the same processor, but it either weighs another three pounds or has a cheaper display/video card. Apple has comparable pricing when you compare comparable products from other manufacturers. They don't have anything in the cheap $400 range because they don't make cheap.

Re:Memory options by Dzimas · 2013-10-22 08:15 · Score: 1

Not quite. The 64 GB version costs $200 more than the 16 GB baseline you mention and includes 48 GB more memory.

Re:A shot at other OS, computer *and* device maker by NatasRevol · 2013-10-22 08:15 · Score: 1

If you think that's all a Mac is, you're the idiot.

Start by adding SSD storage, *all* the connections, magsafe power cord.

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There are two types of people in the world: Those who crave closure

Not even a tiny bit irrelevant by SuperKendall · 2013-10-22 08:24 · Score: 2, Interesting

For consumer use, the advances in technology are largely irrelevant at this point.

Actually, the motion coprocessor alone is a huge boost for the millions of people that already use device like the Nike FuelBand, or FitBitâ¦

And the 64-bit advancement has very real performance gains in software which will also be noticed in many applications.

The next advance is going to be battery life that lasts for weeks or months, and no one has that yet.

It's going to be a long time before we see weeksâ¦ but Apple is focusing on battery life far more than any other company, with a lot of aspects of iOS7 made to improve just that (and again the motion coprocessor comes into play by making motion sensing one sensor that doesn't drain the battery additionally with use).

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"There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley

Re:Not even a tiny bit irrelevant by AmiMoJo · 2013-10-22 09:17 · Score: 1

Actually, the motion coprocessor alone is a huge boost for the millions of people that already use device like the Nike FuelBand, or FitBitÃÂ¦
Not really. Aside from the obvious fact that they already have those devices so don't need anything to replace them, the iPhone isn't water/sweat/dustproof or even particularly robust. It makes sense to get a cheaper and more robust sensor to take with you when you are being active.
The iPhone can't replace all the functionality of modern sports sensors anyway, e.g. heart rate monitoring, so it isn't really a replacement at all. In this context the motion co-processor is a glorified pedometer.
As it happens some Android devices have had something pretty similar for years anyway. My GS3 has an octa-core CPU, and four of those cores are ultra low power ones designed for monitoring sensors. Apple's coprocessor is probably a bit lower power, but at the cost of being less flexible.

--
const int one = 65536; (Silvermoon, Texture.cs)
SJW, n: "Someone I don't like, and by the way I'm a fuckwit" - AC
Re:Not even a tiny bit irrelevant by SuperKendall · 2013-10-22 09:58 · Score: 1

Not really. Aside from the obvious fact that they already have those devices so don't need anything to replace them
It's always better to have one less thing, and why MP3 sales declined with the rise of smart-phones. No one wants two devices if you can have one.
the iPhone isn't water/sweat/dustproof or even particularly robust.
It's anything proof with the right case, which in case you hadn't noticed the iPhone has in droves. And for many uses like counting steps (what most care about) it works just fine in a pocket or your purse.
The iPhone can't replace all the functionality of modern sports sensors anyway, e.g. heart rate monitoring
For a few things like that there are compact external BTLE sensors. So it's still a replacement in that you have some things you record more infrequently as a smaller device.
As it happens some Android devices have had something pretty similar for years anyway. My GS3 has an octa-core CPU, and four of those cores are ultra low power ones designed for monitoring sensors.
And as it happened it doesn't matter what hardware you have is developers cannot code for it. That's also why BTLE on Android sucks even though hardware has been shipping with BTLE support for over a year.

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"There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley

Re:A shot at other OS, computer *and* device maker by EvanED · 2013-10-22 08:28 · Score: 2

They don't have anything in the cheap $400 range because they don't make cheap.

They don't have anything (IMO) for the enthusiast desktop user. The iMacs are inappropriate for a few reasons, and Mac Pros are too expensive.I'd consider them for a laptop purchase, but in the desktop space they don't have anything that's remotely reasonable.

Re:A shot at other OS, computer *and* device maker by Anonymous Coward · 2013-10-22 08:29 · Score: 1

How about this...

Bought several desktops recently for my kids.
I reformatted them and installed Ubuntu which comes with LibreOffice (actually a pretty decent package).

hardware cost = ~$600 each
Software cost = $0

Vendor lock-in = NONE

Re:A shot at other OS, computer *and* device maker by real-modo · 2013-10-22 08:30 · Score: 3, Insightful

Then you're an idiot and need to learn how pricing works....i5, 8gb ram, aluminum case pc laptop on newegg RIGHT NOW, $400. Comes with windows, and then add office for $140 more? Ohhh....soooo much more $ than a Mac!!

Nine-hour battery life with reasonable weight? A battery that lasts five years with only 30% decrease in capacity?

Reasonably well color-calibrated screen pretty much covering sRGB, with reasonable sharpness, viewing angles and brightness, which doesn't wobble or develop faults in a couple of years?

Accurate, pleasant-to-use trackpad?

Backlit keyboard, typing on which isn't uncomfortable, annoying, or error-prone? And which doesn't lose key caps when you sneeze or develop unresponsive keys?

Good durability? Good resale value?

Windows laptops with these features, the features that make the difference between resenting your tool and enjoying using it and owning it, do exist. Granted.

But every time I've looked for one in the last four years, in the place where I live, matching a Macbook Pro in the Windows space seems to cost between 50% and 200% more. And no Windows laptops match MBPs on resale.

I don't think Mac users are the idiots. I think I am, for refusing to buy a good tool at a fair price.

Re:A shot at other OS, computer *and* device maker by BronsCon · 2013-10-22 08:41 · Score: 1

All the connections? So... NFC? Honestly, that's all that's lacking from my MBP; my phone has it, my PC ultrabook has it and, if my MBP had it, I'd never have to manually pair my Zik headphones.

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APK quotes people (including myself) without context and should not be trusted. Just thought you should know.

Re:iPad 2 because contracts, duh by Anonymous Coward · 2013-10-22 08:45 · Score: 5, Insightful

It's somewhat baffling that anyone these days would want an iPad 2.

It's not baffling and it's not about "want." Apple has signed a lot of contracts with school systems for large volume, fixed price delivery of iPads and most likely those contracts included qualifiers that Apple must deliver products which are "commercially available" at the time of delivery. Discontinuing the iPad 2 would probably require Apple to deliver the newer products which have a lower profit margin and a higher consumer demand.

Those are fairly common terms to put in when you're writing long term volume purchase agreements.

And now, without the marketing bollocks by wonkey_monkey · 2013-10-22 08:54 · Score: 4, Funny

which has a 9.7" Retina display

Let me just pass that through my "marketing bullshit" remover:

which has a 9.7" display

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systemd is Roko's Basilisk.

Re:A shot at other OS, computer *and* device maker by Anonymous Coward · 2013-10-22 09:00 · Score: 1

Too bad your kids are embarrassed to let their friends know their dad's a skinflint.

Re:A shot at other OS, computer *and* device maker by MightyYar · 2013-10-22 09:03 · Score: 1

I love how people don't price in size, weight, or battery life. Those things are free, right?

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W..w..W - Willy Waterloo washes Warren Wiggins who is washing Waldo Woo.

Re:A shot at other OS, computer *and* device maker by jedidiah · 2013-10-22 09:03 · Score: 1

Been there. Did that. Quickly got over it...

Don't buy into the propaganda anymore.

--
A Pirate and a Puritan look the same on a balance sheet.

Re:A shot at other OS, computer *and* device maker by NatasRevol · 2013-10-22 09:06 · Score: 1

Except that wasn't included in his price.

Thanks for making my point.

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There are two types of people in the world: Those who crave closure

Re:A shot at other OS, computer *and* device maker by jedidiah · 2013-10-22 09:06 · Score: 1

> Too bad your kids are embarrassed to let their friends know their dad's a skinflint.

Actually, $600 pays for a very respectable desktop if you aren't stuck on overpriced consumer labels.

The Ubuntu install probably didn't save any money because the hardware likely already came with Microsoft bundleware anyways.

--
A Pirate and a Puritan look the same on a balance sheet.

Re:A shot at other OS, computer *and* device maker by NatasRevol · 2013-10-22 09:07 · Score: 1

Fine, as long as you include Thunderbolt 2 as well.

Also, NFC for headphones? WTF?

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There are two types of people in the world: Those who crave closure

Re:A shot at other OS, computer *and* device maker by AmiMoJo · 2013-10-22 09:07 · Score: 3, Insightful

Okay, the cheap laptops are not in the same league, but there are comparable Windows ultrabooks with excellent calibrated displays, similar specs, battery life etc. NEC's LaVie series, some ASUS and Samsung models, and of course Sony.

Apple laptops are not magic, or particularly good value. They are similar to the competition, it's just that no-one else has the Reality Distortion Field that makes them seem so much better.

--
const int one = 65536; (Silvermoon, Texture.cs)
SJW, n: "Someone I don't like, and by the way I'm a fuckwit" - AC

Re:A shot at other OS, computer *and* device maker by EvanED · 2013-10-22 09:12 · Score: 2

I love how people don't price in size, weight, or battery life. Those things are free, right?

They aren't free, but for lots of people they're less expensive than money.

Particularly the Mac Pro by unixisc · 2013-10-22 09:24 · Score: 1

I am particularly impressed by the Mac Pro. They've totally overhauled a PC design and come out w/ a new tower that is optimally designed w/ the best of components. Finally a Mac worth the price!

Re:Particularly the Mac Pro by fyngyrz · 2013-10-22 23:14 · Score: 1

Optimally designed? They went from a machine that could run eight monitors to one that can, as near as we can tell from the marketing materials, do three; one where all your hardware was safe in a strong case to one that's going to require desk-turds all over the place; one where the basic system is barely functional due to minimal storage on board, as compared to the previous incarnation which could carry multiple terabytes in various formats.
I waited a LONG time for a new Mac Pro, and now it looks like the previous generation was by far the best. Near as I can tell, the engineers were drunk when they came up with this weird new design. The idea of scattering more hardware all over my desk is a complete non-starter for several reasons, and the machine can't even do what the previous generation could. Pffft.

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I've fallen off your lawn, and I can't get up.
Re:Particularly the Mac Pro by unixisc · 2013-10-23 03:13 · Score: 1

How many people work w/ more than 3 monitors? Also, in this case, you have just one tower that has all the components cooled by a single cooling unit, so that there are no components inadequately cooled as a result. As far as the storage goes, it has 256GB of PCIe SSD storage on board, but if one needs more, one could attach a 2TB drive via USB.
Re:Particularly the Mac Pro by Plumpaquatsch · 2013-10-25 01:10 · Score: 1

Optimally designed? They went from a machine that could run eight monitors to one that can, as near as we can tell from the marketing materials, do three;
http://www.apple.com/mac-pro/specs/ - "Connect up to ... Six Thunderbolt displays"
And that's "out-of-the-box", without any extra graphics cards connected via Thunderbolt.

--
Of course news about a fake are Fake News.

Re:A shot at other OS, computer *and* device maker by BlackPignouf · 2013-10-22 09:38 · Score: 1

I agree with what you say.
I just want to add that the keyboard looks good, but is pretty much unusable without learning unusual shortcuts for some characters.

Re:A shot at other OS, computer *and* device maker by the_B0fh · 2013-10-22 09:44 · Score: 3, Insightful

Yet another person who thinks throwing a bunch of substandard crap together in a box makes it equivalent to a nicely designed machine. When you show me a box that have similar hardware, thermal, weight, battery life, PCIe flash, screen resolution, etc characteristics for that price, then we can start talking.

A $400 laptop is essentially netbook territory with spinning rust. You expect that to have the same performance as a macbook pro?

*SERIOUSLY?!*

Re:A shot at other OS, computer *and* device maker by Hamsterdan · 2013-10-22 09:49 · Score: 2

Amen to that... A small minitower between the Mini and the Pro is what's missing from their lineup.

--
I've got better things to do tonight than die.

Re:A shot at other OS, computer *and* device maker by the_B0fh · 2013-10-22 09:49 · Score: 1

And no PCIe flash, right? Things like that actually cost money.

Not that a $600 is a bad computer. I have a hackintosh that was in the $450 range. But it doesn't compare to my macbook retina or my macmini.

Re:Only 16GB by Macgrrl · 2013-10-22 09:56 · Score: 2

Investigate an Air Stash for unlimited storage on your iPad. My husband has one and they rock.

--
Sara
Designer, Gamer, Macgrrl in an XP World

Re:iPad 2 because contracts, duh by Cinder6 · 2013-10-22 10:04 · Score: 1

I wasn't aware of contracts like this. Thanks.

--
If you can't convince them, convict them.

Ignoring reality by SuperKendall · 2013-10-22 10:07 · Score: 2

64 bit - better performance, but it's still fewer cores and lower performance than high end Android devices.

Yet in benchmarks the 5s does better than those systems.

Full-time motion chip - Lower power version of what we already have

Lower power version also of what the iPhone already had. Being able to be run 24x7 makes a huge difference in usability. Lower power is always an important factor.

On the other hand the screen is still SD, not even 720p.

Which is why they make iPads. Perhaps you have heard of them?

No NFC, which has actual practical uses like sharing, tags and payments.

None of which I have ever seen anyone use, and I can do any of those things with iOS that does not include NFC support. NFC support is dead on the vine since any possible use can be also done with BTLE or something like Passbook (which people do actually use in the millions).

Not waterproof or ruggedized.

With the iPhone you have the choice to make it so after purchase with a huge variety of cases. Why wants a phone that is ruggedized to carry around all the time? I prefer to slip on a protective case when boing or hiking then shed it when done.

No 1080p video output or MirrorLink support.

Airplay???? Perhaps you have NOT heard of it.

I have not even started on the software.

Right, because software terminates your argument instantly. iOS first is still the approach just about all startups take.

That's why those OUT OF TOUCH WITH REALITY say it's mid-range

FTFY.

--
"There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley

Re:Ignoring reality by AmiMoJo · 2013-10-22 19:46 · Score: 1

Lower power version also of what the iPhone already had. Being able to be run 24x7 makes a huge difference in usability. Lower power is always an important factor.
People keep saying that but never provide any actual examples of applications for it. As I already pointed out it is a poor substitute for a proper sport/health sensor, so what is the important factor you speak of?

On the other hand the screen is still SD, not even 720p.
Which is why they make iPads. Perhaps you have heard of them?
A tablet is not a phone. I'm not sure why you even mention it since we are discussion phones. Okay, so no-one does 4k phones, just buy a TV, perhaps you have heard of them?

None of which I have ever seen anyone use
Ah, okay, your personal experience is what we will go by then. Let's ignore the fact that so many manufacturers have added this functionality and supported it with applications. I use it a lot, for setting my phone to car more or office mode, and for sharing stuff, but for some reason I don't count.

With the iPhone you have the choice to make it so after purchase with a huge variety of cases.
What you meant to say is that you can turn it into a brick with a chunky waterproof protective case, just in case you happen to ever drop it or get it wet.

Airplay???
Compressed shit. Other phones do 1080p uncompressed video and audio. MHL adapters are extremely cheap, Apple's 720p compresses rubbish is extremely expensive.

--
const int one = 65536; (Silvermoon, Texture.cs)
SJW, n: "Someone I don't like, and by the way I'm a fuckwit" - AC

Re:A shot at other OS, computer *and* device maker by farble1670 · 2013-10-22 10:19 · Score: 1

link please.

iPad is ten hours+ by SuperKendall · 2013-10-22 10:20 · Score: 2

manufacturers always exaggerate battery life it's safe to assume 8 hours is reasonable for the iPad Air as well

That's not at all reasonable, since every iPad to date in every review has met the stated battery life under real conditions (browsing, movies, etc).

So the iPad Air gets 10 (or more) hours per charge.

--
"There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley

Re:A shot at other OS, computer *and* device maker by spire3661 · 2013-10-22 10:23 · Score: 1

For Bluetooth headphones, why not? I use an NFC sticker on the back of my PS3 controller to pair with my my Nexus 7.

--
Good-bye

SSD is PCIe SSD, not SATA by SuperKendall · 2013-10-22 10:40 · Score: 2

Similarly priced machines are coming with 512GB of more now.

Is that for a SATA SSD drive? Or the faster PCIe SSD as the Mac Pro has?

--
"There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley

Re:SSD is PCIe SSD, not SATA by AmiMoJo · 2013-10-23 05:17 · Score: 1

Sorry, you fell for the oldest trick in the book. PCIe drives don't cost any more than SATA drives, at least not to the manufacturers or if they are soldered to the mobo like in many laptops. The memory chips are the same, just a different but similarly priced controller chip.
You thought that somehow the PCIe SSD was more expensive because it is faster, but it's the same cost. FWIW my NEC laptop does have 512GB of PCI-e SSD storage soldered to the mobo, and the upgrade from 256GB is about 3/5 the price that Apple charges.

--
const int one = 65536; (Silvermoon, Texture.cs)
SJW, n: "Someone I don't like, and by the way I'm a fuckwit" - AC

Re:A shot at other OS, computer *and* device maker by farble1670 · 2013-10-22 11:14 · Score: 4, Informative

Apple laptops are not magic

but they are unix, and unlike linux, everything just works out of the box. for some of us, it's worth paying more to not have to dink around for hours on the weekend to hopefully get things running smoothly.

macs are overpriced, but not as much as some folks say. consider this MBP,
http://store.apple.com/us/buy-mac/macbook-pro

it's $1800 with no upgrades.

the most comparable thing i can find at dell.com is this,
http://www.dell.com/us/p/xps-12-9q33/pd?oc=dncwi16b&model_id=xps-12-9q33

it's $600 less, but it has 1/2 the memory, worse graphics, a slightly smaller display and lesser res, and a 128GB SSD vs. a next-gen 512GB SSD. also, it runs windows, not a unix-based OS.

how about toshiba?
http://www.toshiba.com/us/computers/laptops/kira/kirabook13/KIRAbook13-i5-touch

$300 less, but has last-gen graphics, last-gen core processor, and a last-gen SSD that's 1/2 the size. it does have a touchscreen where the MPB does not.

Re:A shot at other OS, computer *and* device maker by ndrw · 2013-10-22 11:32 · Score: 1

And the kids get to play Minecraft on a legitimately performing computer, so they don't complain, right? :)

ipad air ipad + air by emptybody · 2013-10-22 11:39 · Score: 1

i yelled outloud when i heard the name.
then i saw that it is not the dual screen clamshell combination iPad AirBook i was looking for.
some day I will have my dual touch screen system with a display for the keyboard.
but alas. not today.

--
comment directly in my journal

Re:A shot at other OS, computer *and* device maker by dk20 · 2013-10-22 11:48 · Score: 2

Seriously that is your comment, that i am cheap?
I guess its a good use of your time and really contributed to the thread.

Re:A shot at other OS, computer *and* device maker by perpenso · 2013-10-22 11:49 · Score: 1

Ahem, I think you will find Google has been doing this for years. Free (as in beer and open source) OS upgrades for Nexus devices and free productivity apps for all platforms.

However the Nexus devices are a minority player in the Android market. The bulk of the Android devices are not so fortunate. Plus the Google productivity apps require buying into Google's cloud strategy. Apple only makes their cloud strategy an option, you are still free to store files locally on the device.

online upgrades have lower costs by peter303 · 2013-10-22 11:52 · Score: 1

In the days before broadband, you uploaded via purchased CDs. There was some cost in manufacturing and distributing those CDs. Online is substantially cheaper. I guess it took the mobile model to prove this.

Re:Only 16GB by Kjella · 2013-10-22 12:15 · Score: 3, Interesting

Psychology. A lot of people will stay on the base model and pat themselves on the back for $100 well saved. The people who want more space will by sold up to the 64/128 GB model and pat themselves on the back for getting so many more GB/$. I think the subset of people who are:

a) certain 16GB won't be enough
b) certain 32GB will be enough
c) willing to pay $100 extra for the privilege

is in an extreme minority. People have no idea what NAND prices are, they just need to feel good about their own choice and the easiest way is to give them a bad choice to make it look good against. So raise your hand everyone with a 32GB model ;)

--
Live today, because you never know what tomorrow brings

Re:A shot at other OS, computer *and* device maker by Aranykai · 2013-10-22 12:33 · Score: 1

It was just last year that Sony was still shipping their 15" laptops with 1366x768 displays by default. You can get laptops for less than $600, but you get what you pay for.

--
If sharing a song makes you a pirate, what do I have to share to be a ninja?

Re:A shot at other OS, computer *and* device maker by MightyYar · 2013-10-22 14:30 · Score: 2

Fair enough, but the AC was calling someone an idiot for having the audacity to insist on a cost comparison based on similar hardware.

--
W..w..W - Willy Waterloo washes Warren Wiggins who is washing Waldo Woo.

There are more factors than that by aiadot · 2013-10-22 15:16 · Score: 1

According to the Japanese sony website, the battery lasts between 8 to 10 hours depending on what you're doing(8h for web browsing, 10h for video, 110h for music).
There are also other factors that heavily influence the weight and size of what you said. Mainly connectors: The Z has microUSB, SD card, HDMI and the usual 4-pin stereo jack. If you want to used most of these on an iPad you gotta use a adapter.
There are other features as well such as being water and dust proof, having much better cameras and having NFC.
And to be honest the difference in resolution is minimal. I think the difference between the screens of a 1080p phone, like the Xperia Z, versus the iPhone 5S retina is more noticeable. However I do admit the iPad screen is still better, not because of the barely higher resolution but, because it uses IPS over the TFT on the Z.

Said all that, lets be honest here for a moment. ALMOST nobody cares about these details. In the end the company with the better salesmanship will be the one with the better sales. Pretty damn sure that is Apple.

Re:A shot at other OS, computer *and* device maker by schnell · 2013-10-22 16:21 · Score: 4, Insightful

The vast bulk of the market has already turned it's back on this notion of "design". Once you take that away, Apple is nothing special at all.

I promised myself a long time ago to stop replying in Slashdot Apple fanboy/troll wars, but this one really got me.

Having used all modern OSes quite a bit, I can tell you plainly that if you think Apple is about fancy hardware cases and rounded corners, you don't get it. Please do not make comparisons to Windows commodity PCs solely based on hardware, because that's not what Apple is about on the desktop. Unlike almost anyone else in the industry, Apple is a software company that makes their money with hardware.

Their goal is to sell you a high-margin, high-end piece of hardware that may not be differentiated based on hardware, but is differentiated based on shipping with a UNIX-based OS that has a slick and efficient UI; integrated cloud sharing and automatic backups; bundled office apps that can match or beat MS Office/LibreOffice; iLife apps (iMovie, iPhoto, Garage Band) that have so serious free competition; and an integrated entertainment ecosystem (iTunes) that nobody else but Amazon comes close to (sorry, Google Play is nowhere near competitive for a desktop user). "I can get the equivalent hardware for cheaper with Windows or Ubuntu" is a false argument, because it's the software that makes a Mac special. I know there are "lots" of people who buy Macs and install a different OS on them, but I think that's a Slashdot-centric view of "lots" - a.k.a. "lots of people buy Raspberry Pis."

YMMV as to what that software differentiation is worth, but for those who buy Macs, the answer is clearly "it's worth a lot and still a bargain."

--
"95% of all Slashdot .sig quotes are incorrect or completely fabricated." -Benjamin Franklin

Re:A shot at other OS, computer *and* device maker by swell · 2013-10-22 16:35 · Score: 4, Insightful

> R&D

It's simple. Were it not for Apple and a very few other companies that do research, who take chances, who bet their lives that you want to move ahead, we would be using DOS.

R&D costs money. Dell and HP won't invest there; their money goes for marketing. Apple does real R&D and I am happy to support that.

Additionally, some foreign companies are investing increasingly in R&D. Apple (and Qualcomm, a few others) may be the only viable American company that remains.

Give your money to those who innovate, not to mass junk producers.

--
...omphaloskepsis often...

Re:A shot at other OS, computer *and* device maker by pherthyl · 2013-10-22 17:01 · Score: 3, Insightful

>> Apple laptops are not magic, or particularly good value.

Two things that I like about Apple laptops that are unmatched:
1. Trackpad is just first class. I have never seen any windows machine with a trackpad so smooth and accurate. Also the gestures in the OS are actually useful to the point where I prefer using the trackpad over a mouse for most applications (not image editing).
2. Magnetic power adapter. This is just killer compared to the stupid barrel connectors everyone else has. I would pay an extra $100 just for that feature.

Re:A shot at other OS, computer *and* device maker by real-modo · 2013-10-22 17:22 · Score: 1

Okay, the cheap laptops are not in the same league, but there are comparable Windows ultrabooks with excellent calibrated displays, similar specs, battery life etc. NEC's LaVie series, some ASUS and Samsung models, and of course Sony.

Apple laptops are not magic, or particularly good value. They are similar to the competition, it's just that no-one else has the Reality Distortion Field that makes them seem so much better.

NECs are hard to come by, here. For the good reason that some years back, they seemed to have terrible reliability. Rickety USB ports and power connectors, and loosely attached key caps. Display panels that went bung after a few months. Drivers that didn't drive, and caused problems with other software. All for premium dollars.

Somehow, no-one wants to distribute NEC, now. Reputation - years in the making, two bad products in the losing. For decades.

Asus, Samsung - where I live, models competitive to MBPs in most respects cost a third more than the Macs. Those with "excellent displays" used to cost at least twice as much, although in recent months the message from AnandTech and others seems to have started sinking in. I have my doubts about the durability of Asus frames and hinges, and the reliability of Samsung keyboards and ports, though... Time will tell.

Can't hear the issue by Neo-Rio-101 · 2013-10-22 17:29 · Score: 1

That's MOOT, not mute

--
READY.
PRINT ""+-0

Re:A shot at other OS, computer *and* device maker by real-modo · 2013-10-22 17:38 · Score: 2

how about toshiba?
http://www.toshiba.com/us/computers/laptops/kira/kirabook13/KIRAbook13-i5-touch

$300 less, but has last-gen graphics, last-gen core processor, and a last-gen SSD that's 1/2 the size. it does have a touchscreen where the MPB does not.

Kirabook reviews: Makes an annoying noise under load, fan grille on the bottom (which makes it a tabletop), and reproduces the main flaw in the MBP keyboard - half-height arrow keys. Apparently a very good screen, although I couldn't find any charts showing color accuracy or sharpness.

Still costs 20% more than the equivalent MBP, where I live. Well, that's down from 50% more. Perhaps PC manufacturers are starting to realise why their stuff isn't selling.

Thanks for drawing it to my attention, though.

Re:A shot at other OS, computer *and* device maker by real-modo · 2013-10-22 17:53 · Score: 1

Learning new keyboard shortcuts doesn't bother me very much, for some reason. (Maybe I stick a new star on my mental achievement chart. ;-) )

Loud or whiny fans and bad trackpads, though.... Isn't it a good thing for manufacturers that people are different? ;-)

Re:A shot at other OS, computer *and* device maker by real-modo · 2013-10-22 18:12 · Score: 1

Mac hardware has no more resale than PC hardware.

Not true here. People consistently pay more for used Macs than they do for higher-spec PC hardware of the same age and condition. Panasonic toughbooks--the real ones--are the one and only exception to this. But that's a market Panasonic has to itself, pretty much.

Value is what people are willing to pay. Reputation may be the cause, sure. But the reality is that the five-year cost of owning a MBP is reduced (compared to the counterfactual of an identically priced Not-a-Mac) because of its higher residual value.

Re:A shot at other OS, computer *and* device maker by peragrin · 2013-10-22 22:34 · Score: 1

hint. 99% of the population tosses a computer when the hardware stops performing as it is cheaper to replace the whole machine, than to spend $200 upgrading the processor, memory, or video card of a $400 computer.

Hell usually by the time the computer components are starting to die it is time to replace everything anyways as you can get a better processor(faster better power management), better video card, bigger drive etc.

The only time replacable parts are useful is for servers. where they will break down more often.

--
i thought once I was found, but it was only a dream.

Re:A shot at other OS, computer *and* device maker by MysteriousPreacher · 2013-10-22 22:47 · Score: 1

Agreed. All you need to do is update the processor, the mobo, the HD and slap in a new GPU, but apart from those changes it's the same craptacular computer.

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-- Using the preview button since 2005

Health concerns... by sabbede · 2013-10-23 01:21 · Score: 1

I'm concerned by the apparent decline in the overall health of iPeople. Why are they so weak that 1.4lbs is too much? Are we seeing the long-term impact of veganism?

For chrissakes people, eat a burger and get some exercise!

Re:A shot at other OS, computer *and* device maker by NatasRevol · 2013-10-23 02:24 · Score: 1

Why not? Range.

NFC range is 8". Yes, inches.

Bluetooth is >8 feet.

If you put your music device in your pants pocket, you'll lose connection with your headphones.

--
There are two types of people in the world: Those who crave closure

Abusive behavior? by unixisc · 2013-10-23 03:18 · Score: 2

You just answered your own question: because once I pay for it, it's not their hardware anymore. It's mine, and I'll do whatever I damn well please with it.

And yes, I apply that logic to every single one of the greedy bastards who prevent consumers from having full control over their own property, not just Apple.

Yeah, it's your hardware, and you are at liberty to do what you like - install Windows, Linux, Android, BSD, whatever. They don't try & do anything to you for that. What they do do is tell you upfront that if you do any of that, it voids the warranty. Simple reason - Apple doesn't hire people to do these other OSs on their toys, and has no reason to. It's just like when you buy anything else - it's yours, but there are certain things, which if you do, void the warranties.

Re:Abusive behavior? by CanHasDIY · 2013-10-23 04:03 · Score: 1

Tell that to Sony - I want linux on my PS3, dammit!

--
An enigma, wrapped in a riddle, shrouded in bacon and cheese
Re:Abusive behavior? by unixisc · 2013-10-23 06:38 · Score: 1

Sony doesn't make/sell that, so either risk voiding a warranty after getting a PS3 and putting Linux on it, or get a console from a more obscure company that does come w/ Linux on it
Re:Abusive behavior? by CanHasDIY · 2013-10-23 07:09 · Score: 1

You don't get it - Sony removed the ability to install Linux on a PS3.
Not being a software engineer, I lack the expertise to hack the thing back to working condition. It's not a reasonable expectation to say that all consumers should be able to reverse engineer every single thing they buy.
That's my bitch - not that they would void my warranty for installing Linux, but that they removed my ability to do it, period.

--
An enigma, wrapped in a riddle, shrouded in bacon and cheese

Whoosh by SuperKendall · 2013-10-23 06:14 · Score: 1

PCIe drives don't cost any more than SATA drives

Just noting that it is faster. Of course it doesn't cost any more, there is no housing for one thing. But the chips themselves can cost more if they are faster than what you would put into a SATA SSD drive because they would be limited by the controller speed.

the upgrade from 256GB is about 3/5 the price that Apple charges.

And you really think the chips in that laptop are anywhere near as fast as what they are using in the Mac Pro? Come on! That the difference is so slight proves my point.

--
"There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley

Re:Whoosh by AmiMoJo · 2013-10-23 09:37 · Score: 1

And you really think the chips in that laptop are anywhere near as fast as what they are using in the Mac Pro?
Benchmarks say yes.

--
const int one = 65536; (Silvermoon, Texture.cs)
SJW, n: "Someone I don't like, and by the way I'm a fuckwit" - AC
Re:Whoosh by SuperKendall · 2013-10-23 10:13 · Score: 1

Benchmarks say yes.
Benchmarks against a computer that ships in Decemberâ¦ Whatever you say.

--
"There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley

iWork by hazydave · 2013-10-23 07:29 · Score: 1

I think everyone's missing the point of iWork... this is mostly just a shot at Microsoft. This is Apple deciding that selling hardware is more important for them than nickel and diming on apps... and given their 30-50% margins, that's probably a good notion. Microsoft's super powers in office automation came from them controlling the OS and pre-installing Office as a bundle with Windows for years. This effectively killed off the competition -- who's going to pay for WordPerfect when Office is "Free" (well, I did, back in the day, but most folks didn't).

Now Apple's selling a volume of devices that's at least interesting compared to the volume of devices that Microsoft powers with Windows. Dropping iWork on the iPad delivers an Apple-blessed office solution that's probably better tuned to the quirks of iPad users than anything from Microsoft would be. Including that on the Mac means full sync throughout the Apple ecosystem. And helps prevent Microsoft from establishing any kind of beachhead on the iPad, or probably what they're really thinking, via the collaborative parts of Office365 vs. iCloud.

In short, a smart move for Apple. Not pushed as much yet, but between Google Docs and Quickoffice, Google is already offering this same kind of free thing on Android. And Android outsold Windows last year, and they're killing it even more this year.

It's clear Microsoft Office became a corporate standard, but not clear why so many still use it -- it's pretty awful. Not that OpenOffice/LibreOffice are much better, themselves being too much clones of the bad ideas in MS-Office. But then again, I didn't have to pay $500 or whatever for either of those, or Quickoffice on Android. Microsoft trying to get me to use their tools on Android, for collaboration, or online, they have the same problem with mobile users that Wordperfect/Corel and Lotus/IBM had all those years... they're not the free thing anymore.

--
-Dave Haynie

Re: A shot at other OS, computer *and* device make by Bootes · 2013-10-23 08:13 · Score: 1

And I took my old MBP and put an SSD in by unscrewing the only visible screws on the machine to open it and then the screws around the hard drive... Pretty sure it wasn't any more difficult than your upgrade.

Re:A shot at other OS, computer *and* device maker by JesseMcDonald · 2013-10-23 09:26 · Score: 1

The idea is to use NFC for Bluetooth pairing in place of entering a PIN, not to actually play music over NFC. Eight inches should be plenty.

--
"The state is that great fiction by which everyone tries to live at the expense of everyone else." - Bastiat

Re:A shot at other OS, computer *and* device maker by vux984 · 2013-10-23 13:13 · Score: 1

Yes, let's compare the just announced apple refreshed product to stuff you randomly dug up on Dell.

Here's the thing about apple, the value proposition is actually pretty good assuming you only care about the specs in the base-line product AND you only do the price comparison the day after its released.

Whereas every other manufacturers products either steadily get cheaper over time, or steadily get spec bumps over time while the price stays constant -- Apple's specs and price stay exactly the same until the product is refreshed.

So come back 12 months from now, and the apple product will still be $1800, the RAM, SSD will be the same size, the graphics will be 1-2 generations old, and pretty much everything you can buy somewhere else will be better.

the most comparable thing i can find at dell.com is this...

Mmmm... sure... or why not this...

http://www.dell.com/us/business/p/xps-15-9530/pd?oc=smx15w8p002&model_id=xps-15-9530

Its $150 more instead of $600 less

So... what do you get for $150 bucks more?

i7 instead of i5
double the ram (16GB instead of 8GB)
1TB HD + 32GB mSata SSD -- vs 512MB SSD -- interesting trade off
nvidia 750M with 2GB ram vs intel integrated
3200 x 1800 QHD+ display vs 2560x1600
15" vs 13"

Well.. the dell blows the apple away now overall for paltry $150 differential, but 15" to 13" right? Lets bump up the mac to 15" so its apples to well... apples :)

that gets us i7 -- parity
16GB ram -- parity
1TB+32GB ssd vs 512GB ssd -- same trade off as before
nvidia 750M w 2GB ram -- parity
3200x1800 vs 2880x1800 -- slight edge on the dell

price? $1950 vs ... $2600... $650 difference... ouch... even if you prefer the apple hard drive scenario, its not worth a $650 premium over the dell solution; retail cost on a DIY upgrade would be less. And that's just spending 5 minutes on the website. I expect I can do better and get exactly want, in volume for the company with a phone call to my dell rep. Can I do that with apple? Nope. Apple rep? Lol... is that even a thing?

Re:A shot at other OS, computer *and* device maker by farble1670 · 2013-10-23 14:07 · Score: 1

yeah, i probably didn't find that one on dell.com because IT'S NOT EVEN SHIPPING YET. yes, i admit it, i went to their store site and browsed systems that are actually for sale.

price? $1950 vs ... $2600... $650 difference... ouch...

anyway, i agree with most of what you wrote. MBPs are more expensive and i wouldn't dispute that. i was mainly responding to a parent post that quoted $400 for a comparable windows system. personally, i'd pay 20-25% more to get the system that i want ... that doesn't run windows, and where i won't have to struggle with linux to get the system working smoothly.

Apple rep? Lol... is that even a thing?

do you seriously want to speak with some idiot to figure out what laptop you can purchase?

Whereas every other manufacturers products either steadily get cheaper over time, or steadily get spec bumps over time while the price stays constant -- Apple's specs and price stay exactly the same until the product is refreshed.

that's not what i've observed. i've been in the market to replace an aging windows laptop for over a year and have been watching prices closely. prices haven't dropped, even on low end windows laptops.

Re:A shot at other OS, computer *and* device maker by vux984 · 2013-10-23 16:33 · Score: 1

IT'S NOT EVEN SHIPPING YET

touche.

although, 2 weeks ago neither was the apple. and 2 weeks from now they both will. im not sure this is where to split hairs.

personally, i'd pay 20-25% more to get the system that i want ... that doesn't run windows, and where i won't have to struggle with linux to get the system working smoothly.

fair enough. I'm writing this on an MBP myself, so I'm hardly rabidly anti-apple. I like the magsafe adapter, the overall metal build quality. etc. I'm fairly OS agnostic. The unix stuff i need to do ... doesn't need to be done locally. remote access is fine for me, for that.

do you seriously want to speak with some idiot to figure out what laptop you can purchase?

As opposed to being able to pick from 3 models? The dell sales guys at the corporate level, at least tend to be able to offer more than the rigid website, and dells website is lot less rigid than apples.

i've been in the market to replace an aging windows laptop for over a year and have been watching prices closely. prices haven't dropped, even on low end windows laptops.

I dunno... there's always something on sale somewhere; and there's always good deals to be had if you shop around if you aren't dead set on a particular model/configuration. With apple its pretty much take it or leave it until the next hardware refresh.

Re:A shot at other OS, computer *and* device maker by NatasRevol · 2013-10-24 02:47 · Score: 1

Why the fuck would you want to?

Is it really that hard to type '0000'?

--
There are two types of people in the world: Those who crave closure

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