Slashdot Mirror


RF Safe-Stop Shuts Down Car Engines With Radio Pulse

An anonymous reader writes with news of a device built by a company in the U.K. which uses pulses of electromagnetic energy to disrupt the electronic systems of modern cars, causing them to shut down and cut the engine. Here's a description of how it works: "At one end of a disused runway, E2V assembled a varied collection of second-hand cars and motorbikes in order to test the prototype against a range of vehicles. In demonstrations seen by the BBC a car drove towards the device at about 15mph (24km/h). As the vehicle entered the range of the RF Safe-stop, its dashboard warning lights and dials behaved erratically, the engine stopped and the car rolled gently to a halt. Digital audio and video recording devices in the vehicle were also affected.''It's a small radar transmitter,' said Andy Wood, product manager for the machine. 'The RF [radio frequency] is pulsed from the unit just as it would be in radar, it couples into the wiring in the car and that disrupts and confuses the electronics in the car causing the engine to stall.'"

549 comments

  1. short story by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Wasn't there a short story a few years ago where everyone had one of these and it ground the world to a halt because everyone was blasting each other?

    1. Re:short story by phrostie · · Score: 2

      probably made from old microwave ovens.

      could be fun!

    2. Re:short story by Jeremiah+Cornelius · · Score: 2

      I will Faraday my compartment ASAP.

      --
      "Flyin' in just a sweet place,
      Never been known to fail..."
    3. Re:short story by cayenne8 · · Score: 2
      Now...the quick thing to do...is come up with a kit and process to make your car resistant to RF pulses.

      Any ideas how to best do this?

      --
      Light travels faster than sound. This is why some people appear bright until you hear them speak.........
    4. Re:short story by MightyYar · · Score: 2

      First step, go out and buy anything with carbs and points.

      --
      W..w..W - Willy Waterloo washes Warren Wiggins who is washing Waldo Woo.
    5. Re:short story by bobbied · · Score: 1

      Now...the quick thing to do...is come up with a kit and process to make your car resistant to RF pulses.

      Any ideas how to best do this?

      Should be fairly easy for the energy levels involved here..

      Shielded wiring harnesses in the engine compartment, generally around the low voltage components of the engine control module and a little bit of filtering on the power lines. Concentrate on where things come though the firewall because the engine compartment is usually a pretty good Faraday cage anyway.

      Heck, you might just get away with putting some clamp on chokes on the few wires between the instrument cluster and the EMC and a small capacitor on the power supply near where they go though the firewall.

      --
      "File to fit, pound to insert, paint to match" - Aircraft Maintenance 101
    6. Re:short story by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Not that I remember, but there is a previous slashdot post about a DIY one of these.

      The guy's site went down shortly after that post and is hard to find now, even in the Internet Archive. It's unfortunate, too. He had a lot of good info about how to build the waveguide for the specific frequency your parts emitted as well as how to not cook yourself with it while you were testing.

      IIRC, he had about 3 or 4 of them built from old microwave scraps and some hand-machined parts. I wouldn't be surprised if he got a "stop or you'll get v&" letter from Flowers By Irene or their friends. It's the kind of thing feds get all itchy about.

    7. Re:short story by NatasRevol · · Score: 1

      Cover it in sheet metal.

      Or buy a 1972 Oldsmobuick.

      --
      There are two types of people in the world: Those who crave closure
    8. Re:short story by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Carburetor and distributor based engine. Or maybe very well shielded wire harnesses and electrical components.

    9. Re:short story by museumpeace · · Score: 4, Interesting

      won't work if you drive a plastic car ['Vette, Saturn] but with metal bodywork your average care is already half way to being a Faraday cage. A concealed job of finishing that cage would be difficult but most openings just need a grounded hardware cloth covering of proper mesh [must study TFA to see what frequency is used].

      Active jamming to cancel out the incoming waves is not likely due to the high frequency they probably use.

      BTW, do they test this thing on Dick Cheney to see if it shuts down pacemakers?

      --
      SLASHDOT: news for people who can't concentrate on work or have no life at all and got tired of yelling back at the TV.
    10. Re:short story by m2shariy · · Score: 1

      Drive diesel

    11. Re:short story by mrchaotica · · Score: 1

      You forget that most modern cars these days have literally dozens of microcontrollers and hang everything off the CAN-BUS (including the radio!). There are a lot of points of interconnection to worry about shielding/filtering.

      --

      "[Regarding the 'cloud,'] ownership was what made America different than Russia." -- Woz

    12. Re: short story by jd2112 · · Score: 3, Informative

      better yet an old diesel powered vehicle.

      --
      Any insufficiently advanced magic is indistinguishable from technology.
    13. Re:short story by ichthus · · Score: 5, Funny

      go out and buy anything with carbs and points.

      He's not talking about weight watchers.

      ...

      Ohh. Wait, nevermind.

      --
      sig: sauer
    14. Re:short story by kilfarsnar · · Score: 1

      IIRC, he had about 3 or 4 of them built from old microwave scraps and some hand-machined parts. I wouldn't be surprised if he got a "stop or you'll get v&" letter from Flowers By Irene or their friends. It's the kind of thing feds get all itchy about.

      We live in a free country; don't let anyone tell you different.

      --
      "What the American public doesn't know is what makes them the American public." -Ray Zalinsky (Tommy Boy)
    15. Re:short story by bobbied · · Score: 1

      True, but you only really need to protect the Engine Management computer which in all the cars I own is under the hood to keep the engine running. Running from the cops really just involves keeping the engine running and the drive train in gear. All you need to do is filter everything at the firewall and close up the Faraday cage of the engine compartment. If you radio won't play the sound track for the dukes of hazard is really of no importance when running from the cops.

      --
      "File to fit, pound to insert, paint to match" - Aircraft Maintenance 101
    16. Re:short story by viperidaenz · · Score: 2

      Pretty much every Japanese car has the ECU in a metal box under a metal plate in the passenger foot well. Some early Honda's had them in a box in the engine bay, but not any more.

      You'd only need to shield the cables for the crank position sensors. All the other cables would either carry too much current to be adversely effected or abnormal signals would trigger an error code and at worse the check engine light would come on and the ECU would enter 'limp home' mode, with the engine still running. It may not run efficiently or at maximum performance though.

      Have no experience with American or European cars though.

    17. Re:short story by Todd+Palin · · Score: 1

      My 1985 landcruiser has not a digital bone in its body. Old school thru and thru.

    18. Re:short story by icebike · · Score: 1

      You forget that most modern cars these days have literally dozens of microcontrollers and hang everything off the CAN-BUS (including the radio!). There are a lot of points of interconnection to worry about shielding/filtering.

      But most are IN the engine compartment and the Dash. So a couple layers of wire mesh in these areas will shield most of them in one swell foop.
      You still have the harnesses that go through doors, frame, and trunk space to deal with, but you can wrap that in 3M Scotch 24 electrical Shielding tape

      You have to assume that as soon as this device becomes commonly available (even if only to law enforcement) it will be used by criminals. Armored Car companies, and Presidential Limos will all be rushing to install counter measures.

      --
      Sig Battery depleted. Reverting to safe mode.
    19. Re: short story by geekoid · · Score: 1

      fuck that noise, and stink, and increased cancer risk.

      I'll just use my brain and harden a decent vehicle. kthxbye

      --
      The Kruger Dunning explains most post on /. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect
    20. Re:short story by cheater512 · · Score: 1

      Give your car an aluminium foil hat?

    21. Re: short story by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      And "noise, and stink, and increased cancer risk" gave you the device you're currently using to post this nonsense. Self righteous @ss.

    22. Re:short story by funwithBSD · · Score: 1

      Glad I have my 75 CB550 and 77 P200.

      --
      Never answer an anonymous letter. - Yogi Berra
    23. Re:short story by flyneye · · Score: 1

      For a minute I thought this company lifted the design I did for the U.S. military, but I see it's just a silly radar toy. Probably leaves the electronics intact. Sissies!

      --
      *Repent!Quit Your Job!Slack Off!The World Ends Tomorrow and You May Die!
    24. Re:short story by MightyYar · · Score: 1

      You won't need the cops to kill you :)

      --
      W..w..W - Willy Waterloo washes Warren Wiggins who is washing Waldo Woo.
  2. Just wait until... by Subgenius · · Score: 2, Interesting

    those high-powered NSA satellites can do this from orbit. No, this is NOT meant to be a troll post. I wonder if a country could actually orbit a satellite with enough power and a spot beam to stop cars in an entire city... in the name of anti-terrorism, of course.

    --
    Toil is Stupid. Don't be Stupid.
    1. Re:Just wait until... by realityimpaired · · Score: 1

      those high-powered NSA satellites can do this from orbit. No, this is NOT meant to be a troll post. I wonder if a country could actually orbit a satellite with enough power and a spot beam to stop cars in an entire city... in the name of anti-terrorism, of course.

      Seems like a whole lot of trouble to go to, when an EMP would have exactly the same effect, and is a problem that was solved decades ago....

      Even in TFS, this device doesn't target cars specifically, it zapped all of the electronics *in* the car, too.

    2. Re:Just wait until... by mrchaotica · · Score: 0

      Great, now I have to go buy myself an old car with a carburetor. Of course, at this rate, soon it'll be illegal to use it...

      --

      "[Regarding the 'cloud,'] ownership was what made America different than Russia." -- Woz

    3. Re:Just wait until... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      That would basically be an EMP, and it would probably be considered an act of war rather than anti-terrorism. Unless you are referring to using it on one of your own cities to try to stop an attack in progress, which would be even more asinine as the collateral damage could be massive.

      Also, a tightly focused beam powered from terrestrial power sources is one thing, but I think you may be overestimating exactly how high-powered we are able to make satellites.

    4. Re:Just wait until... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You realize that the only reliable way to generate an EMP is with a nuclear weapon right?

    5. Re:Just wait until... by phrostie · · Score: 3, Insightful

      sucks for those with a pacemaker

    6. Re:Just wait until... by Freshly+Exhumed · · Score: 5, Funny

      You realize that the only reliable way to generate an EMP is with a nuclear weapon right?

      Always with the negativity!

      --
      I deny that I have not avoided attaining the opposite of that which I do not want.
    7. Re:Just wait until... by Pentium100 · · Score: 2

      The problem is that some of them (like mine) have electronic ignition. The circuit uses a couple of transistors so it could be susceptible to RFI (it would most likely need a stronger signal to start misbehaving), though I guess it would be much easier to shield that than to shield the electronics in a modern car.

      OTOH, cars with contact breaker ignition should be immune to this. Or old diesel cars.

    8. Re:Just wait until... by CanHasDIY · · Score: 4, Interesting

      You realize that the only reliable way to generate an EMP is with a nuclear weapon right?

      You watch too many movies.

      A person can back-load an old portable generator into a transformer and create an EMP that will theoretically immobilize all electronics within a 3-block radius.

      For more directed attacks, you can find plans for HERF (High Energy, Radio Frequency) guns all over the internet, and build one out of a microwave oven.

      --
      An enigma, wrapped in a riddle, shrouded in bacon and cheese
    9. Re:Just wait until... by CanHasDIY · · Score: 2

      Great, now I have to go buy myself an old car with a carburetor. Of course, at this rate, soon it'll be illegal to use it...

      Make sure it has a points-type ignition as well.

      Would really suck to go through all that effort just to have your electronic ignition system screw you.

      --
      An enigma, wrapped in a riddle, shrouded in bacon and cheese
    10. Re:Just wait until... by realityimpaired · · Score: 3, Informative

      Nuke 'em from orbit... it's the only way to be sure....

      That said, non-nuclear EMP weapons are possible, at least in theory. http://www.howstuffworks.com/e-bomb3.htm
      A simple Google search for "non-nuclear EMP" reveals that the Internet thinks that most of the conventional nuclear-armed nations have them already, and apparently Israel thinks Syria has them, and the UN thinks that the Russians sold them to the Koreans....

    11. Re:Just wait until... by gstoddart · · Score: 1

      Even in TFS, this device doesn't target cars specifically, it zapped all of the electronics *in* the car, too.

      I think this would merely disrupt. I believe a full on EMP would actually destroy the electronics.

      So, in theory at least, you don't wreck every bit of electronics you aim this thing at. Because if police start damaging people's cars for no good reason, there will be hell to pay as people get pissed off at ending up with a huge repair bill -- especially if the officer is mistaken or you're just collateral damage.

      --
      Lost at C:>. Found at C.
    12. Re:Just wait until... by gstoddart · · Score: 1

      A person can back-load an old portable generator into a transformer and create an EMP that will theoretically immobilize all electronics within a 3-block radius

      Wait, that thing from the 'Ocean's X' movie was real?

      --
      Lost at C:>. Found at C.
    13. Re:Just wait until... by wonkey_monkey · · Score: 1, Funny

      You realize you're wrong, right?

      --
      systemd is Roko's Basilisk.
    14. Re:Just wait until... by jandrese · · Score: 4, Interesting

      You're creating a whole bunch of induced current in the circuits, there is a definite possibility that something is not going to work right after being hit by it.

      --

      I read the internet for the articles.
    15. Re:Just wait until... by jandrese · · Score: 1

      Or just get a Diesel. Then the only thing you have to worry about is the fuel pump crapping out.

      --

      I read the internet for the articles.
    16. Re:Just wait until... by WillAffleckUW · · Score: 2

      Actually, yes, but you're not supposed to know about it.

      --
      -- Tigger warning: This post may contain tiggers! --
    17. Re: Just wait until... by Entrope · · Score: 5, Interesting

      I'm sure the "disruption, not damage" thing is going to be very reassuring to the guy with a pacemaker.

      More generally, it's going to be very hard to calibrate field strength for this kind of thing to shut down car electronics without damaging any electronics: it works by turning wires into antennas and inducing enough voltage to confuse the device on one end of that wire. Due to the range of normal operating voltages in different devices -- or even different circuits within one device -- one voltage level might be too low to confuse some devices but high enough to damage others.

    18. Re:Just wait until... by jythie · · Score: 2

      Theoretically is the key word. In reality the devices tend to be rather hard to build, require a lot more power, and even under ideal conditions have pretty short range.

    19. Re:Just wait until... by mrchaotica · · Score: 1

      That might be the best idea. Even some of the relatively new turbodiesels (that are normally computer-controlled) can apparently be converted to mechanical injection

      --

      "[Regarding the 'cloud,'] ownership was what made America different than Russia." -- Woz

    20. Re:Just wait until... by Sarten-X · · Score: 1

      What do you mean we can't build deadly radio laser satellites? I saw it in a movie once!

      --
      You do not have a moral or legal right to do absolutely anything you want.
    21. Re: Just wait until... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Against vehicles I would expect it would be done from a UAV instead. Speaking of which, if you could target aircraft with this someone would have a really bad day...

    22. Re: Just wait until... by gstoddart · · Score: 1

      I'm sure the "disruption, not damage" thing is going to be very reassuring to the guy with a pacemaker.

      I have no doubt about that. But the post I was replying to essentially said "why not EMP, solved problem?"

      To my (very limited) understanding, that would be the theoretical difference between an EMP vs an RF pulse.

      The poor schmuck with the pacemaker (or insulin pump) will not be as concerned with the nuances.

      --
      Lost at C:>. Found at C.
    23. Re: Just wait until... by miroku000 · · Score: 1

      Against vehicles I would expect it would be done from a UAV instead. Speaking of which, if you could target aircraft with this someone would have a really bad day...

    24. Re:Just wait until... by Hamsterdan · · Score: 1

      Depends on what scale of power. A small EMP will disrupt computer controlled stuff by inducing stray signals and crashing either the bus or the cpu itself. A big enough EMP will *destroy* integrated circuits.

      Ever went under high-tension lines with a spring loaded umbrella? That spring is still a coil...

      --
      I've got better things to do tonight than die.
    25. Re:Just wait until... by Hamsterdan · · Score: 0

      The alternator still has a coil, so does the starter...

      --
      I've got better things to do tonight than die.
    26. Re:Just wait until... by acidblue · · Score: 1

      Well, better off than a nuke! :-)

    27. Re:Just wait until... by mrchaotica · · Score: 1

      Lucky for me, I'm interested in things like the Volvo P1800 or Datsun 240Z that wouldn't have electronic ignition anyway.

      --

      "[Regarding the 'cloud,'] ownership was what made America different than Russia." -- Woz

    28. Re:Just wait until... by CanHasDIY · · Score: 1

      Wouldn't know, haven't seen it.

      But if that's what they did, then yea, it should work*.

      * The trick is flipping the generator switch without turning yourself into a crispy critter.

      --
      An enigma, wrapped in a riddle, shrouded in bacon and cheese
    29. Re:Just wait until... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yea its much easier to just set of a nuke.

    30. Re:Just wait until... by bobbied · · Score: 1

      Even in TFS, this device doesn't target cars specifically, it zapped all of the electronics *in* the car, too.

      I think this would merely disrupt. I believe a full on EMP would actually destroy the electronics.

      Not so, based on fairly recent testing. Even a moderately strong EMP would not cause any lasting damage to most cars. Where the testing showed that "upset" was likely within quite a distance from an EMP event, actual damage was pretty rare. Most cars/trucks where not noticeably affected and when they did stop running the "fix" was to cycle the power.

      So, I'm guessing that for a nuclear device to damage your car, you are going to have to be close enough to suffer blast damage or with the zone where radiation will ruin your day long before you can worry about if your car is running or not.

      http://www.survivalblog.com/2010/08/real_world_emp_effects_on_moto.html

      --
      "File to fit, pound to insert, paint to match" - Aircraft Maintenance 101
    31. Re:Just wait until... by CanHasDIY · · Score: 1

      So... my 2012 Jetta TDI is EMP-proof?

      Somehow I doubt that...

      --
      An enigma, wrapped in a riddle, shrouded in bacon and cheese
    32. Re:Just wait until... by K.+S.+Kyosuke · · Score: 4, Insightful

      those high-powered NSA satellites can do this from orbit.

      . Five words: wavelength. Antenna size. Beam width.

      --
      Ezekiel 23:20
    33. Re:Just wait until... by mrchaotica · · Score: 2

      Surely we're not talking about an EM field so strong it could disrupt a "dumb" motor coil though. I mean, at that point I'd almost be more worried about it microwaving the driver!

      (Besides, neither the alternator nor the starter going bad would actually stop the car in the short term, unless the sabotage had the side-effect of destroying the battery.)

      --

      "[Regarding the 'cloud,'] ownership was what made America different than Russia." -- Woz

    34. Re:Just wait until... by freeze128 · · Score: 1

      That's just the thing that will prevent this from actually being used. The whole point would be to SAFELY stop a car, but if you cause the driver to have a cardiac event, then you don't get funding.

    35. Re:Just wait until... by DexterIsADog · · Score: 1

      Even in TFS, this device doesn't target cars specifically, it zapped all of the electronics *in* the car, too.

      I think this would merely disrupt. I believe a full on EMP would actually destroy the electronics.

      So, in theory at least, you don't wreck every bit of electronics you aim this thing at. Because if police start damaging people's cars for no good reason, there will be hell to pay as people get pissed off at ending up with a huge repair bill -- especially if the officer is mistaken or you're just collateral damage.

      The police have little to fear from the people whose property they damage. Hell, New York is refusing to accept liability for the innocent bystanders that their cops shoot! http://www.nytimes.com/2013/11/11/nyregion/bystanders-shot-by-police-face-uphill-fight-to-win-lawsuits.html?pagewanted=all

    36. Re:Just wait until... by CanHasDIY · · Score: 2

      "Theoretically" because I never had the balls to actually set one of those things off; think about it - you're backfeeding the output of a portable generator into a hot AC transformer. When I came across this concept (back in the 1990's), there wasn't really a safe way to flip the switch without risking what I like to call 'explosive electrocution.'

      Now that we live in an age where controlling appliances remotely is child's play, it might actually be a feasible weapon. Because we know the government has done fuck-all to harden our grid against attacks.

      --
      An enigma, wrapped in a riddle, shrouded in bacon and cheese
    37. Re: Just wait until... by ArbitraryName · · Score: 4, Informative

      I'm sure the "disruption, not damage" thing is going to be very reassuring to the guy with a pacemaker.

      The military has actually looked into the effects of EMP on pacemakers. The conclusion is that there is minimal, if any, risk.

    38. Re:Just wait until... by mrchaotica · · Score: 1

      Nope, yours has an electronic common-rail injection system.

      ...But a 2002 Jetta TDI actually could be, if you modified the injection pump.

      --

      "[Regarding the 'cloud,'] ownership was what made America different than Russia." -- Woz

    39. Re:Just wait until... by Garridan · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Look at it this way: suppose any given gate in a processor has a 1-in-a-billion chance of getting fried by current flowing the wrong way through it. A new car has billions of gates across its thousands of little microprocessors. A single defective gate in a processor, in all likelihood, won't cause obvious problems. But... by the sheer number of gates, there will be some problems here and there. Little problems that aren't obvious.

      So if your car was stopped by this thing, it'd still work. Since it was the cops that stopped you, they won't pay for you to get your car checked out (onus is always on the citizen for damage done by police doing 'reasonable' police work, even if they're entirely innocent of the charges under investigation). So you won't get your car checked out. But then, you're driving alone on a rainy road in the dark one night with your high beams on, and a rounding error finally accumulates to a condition that the engineers didn't plan on (because they expected those gates to be intact as they were out of the factory), and you end up dead in a ditch, not to be found until the next morning. The press does some digging, and report "Driver died in an accident last night on I-42. Deceased was known to the police, investigators suspect reckless driving was the cause."

    40. Re:Just wait until... by CohibaVancouver · · Score: 0

      A person can back-load an old portable generator into a transformer and create an EMP that will theoretically immobilize all electronics within a 3-block radius.

      Yep - Here's a 2-minute YouTube vid that shows just that:

      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zl9_ylakzcI

    41. Re:Just wait until... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I've seen plenty of Mythbusters episodes where they setup something like a string that pulls a lever that then releases a hammer or the like on a pendulum. No connection of any kind to the person that pulled the string. The thing on the pendulum then pushes a button or switch. Done. Doesn't need to be complicated and you can be quite a ways away. Add in some relays, an Arduino or Raspberry Pi and you can trigger it across the internet.

    42. Re:Just wait until... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Neither of which is actually required by a car that is already running.

    43. Re:Just wait until... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Did that movie happen to be GoldenEye 007 ?

    44. Re: Just wait until... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      By definition, an RF pulse is an EMP. They're literally the same thing.

    45. Re:Just wait until... by leonardluen · · Score: 2

      A simple Google search for "non-nuclear EMP"...

      and as an added bonus probably gets you added to several lists maintained by govt agencies, such as the no-fly list.

    46. Re:Just wait until... by whoever57 · · Score: 2
      The article claims:

      The firm added that it did not believe the RF Safe-Stop posed any risk to people using a pacemaker.

      Clearly nothing for those pacemaker-carrying luddites to worry about. I mean, the company that created this can't possbly be wrong in their belief that it won't affect pacemakers.

      --
      The real "Libtards" are the Libertarians!
    47. Re:Just wait until... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Maybe Car's should be looking at optical based systems for interconnections to reduce the risk of external interference.

    48. Re:Just wait until... by nospam007 · · Score: 1

      "those high-powered NSA satellites can do this from orbit. No, this is NOT meant to be a troll post. I wonder if a country could actually orbit a satellite with enough power and a spot beam to stop cars in an entire city... in the name of anti-terrorism, of course."

      Of course. Instead of melting the snow in New York City.
      That at least would be worth something.

    49. Re:Just wait until... by Catbeller · · Score: 1

      No. You can do it with a min-satellite dish, some capacitors and a battery. Called a HERF gun. Directional EMP.

    50. Re:Just wait until... by Hotawa+Hawk-eye · · Score: 1

      Maybe. If it was possible, whether that would be seen as a violation of the Outer Space Treaty or not is a different question.

      I'd be more worried about someone using one of these on a highway on cars traveling at high rates of speed. If the transmitter were stationary a vehicle may not be in range for long enough, but if you had one mounted to the rear of your vehicle facing backwards (and shielded somehow from affecting YOUR vehicle) it could cause horrible accidents as cars behind the one that was shut down plowed into it. In Massachusetts this weekend we had a 65-vehicle accident caused by black ice on the road -- this could be worse.

    51. Re:Just wait until... by Catbeller · · Score: 1

      sorry, messed up the placement, there.

    52. Re:Just wait until... by rvw · · Score: 1

      I've seen plenty of Mythbusters episodes where they setup something like a string that pulls a lever that then releases a hammer or the like on a pendulum. No connection of any kind to the person that pulled the string. The thing on the pendulum then pushes a button or switch. Done. Doesn't need to be complicated and you can be quite a ways away. Add in some relays, an Arduino or Raspberry Pi and you can trigger it across the internet.

      Shortcutting the internet - didn't Al Gore do that?

    53. Re:Just wait until... by DMUTPeregrine · · Score: 1

      Something like The Geek Group's "Project Thumper" works too. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5AyD1utqh_8) It uses a spark gap switch. Run something like that through a coil and you've got a nice EMP.

      --
      Not a sentence!
    54. Re:Just wait until... by yurtinus · · Score: 1

      Those two don't matter much, the one that does in an older carb and points car is the ignition coil which generates the high voltage burst needed for the spark plug. Somebody better at electronics could tell us if you can disrupt an ignition coil before doing bad things to the driver... I'm guessing "yes." I'm also guessing that whatever device they've built is not powerful enough to do either.

      --
      +1 Disagree
    55. Re: Just wait until... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I believe the phrase you looking for is "collateral damage" or maybe "you can't make an omelette without breaking a a few eggs" idiom is more fitting in this situation, in your opinion. Right, lets make that happen!

    56. Re:Just wait until... by yurtinus · · Score: 1

      Don't ruin his tin foil fantasy.

      --
      +1 Disagree
    57. Re:Just wait until... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Could you explain the theory though? I mean by saying more than "think about it."
      How big of a generator? Horsepower? Why an old one? Why does backfeeding the output immobilize all electronics, besides just fucking with the grid?

    58. Re:Just wait until... by CCarrot · · Score: 1

      The problem is that some of them (like mine) have electronic ignition. The circuit uses a couple of transistors so it could be susceptible to RFI (it would most likely need a stronger signal to start misbehaving), though I guess it would be much easier to shield that than to shield the electronics in a modern car.

      OTOH, cars with contact breaker ignition should be immune to this. Or old diesel cars.

      Oh, Slashdot comment moderation randomosity...in my skimming I jumped from the discussion of EMP effects on pacemakers to this comment. Yours has an electronic ignition...wait, what? :)

      Guess that bring a whole new meaning to 'jump start your day!'

      --
      "I love animals! Some are cute, others are tasty, what's not to like?" - Betsy Schroeder, Jeopardy contestant
    59. Re:Just wait until... by bobbied · · Score: 1

      Ahhh Yes.. The same argument made for ESD. Are you wearing a wrist strap when you rummage around inside your desktop?

      Look, I won't argue too strongly that your theory isn't possible, only that it's not likely. Upsetting a processor is not generally going to cause it permanent damage. It's easy to get a processor off in the weeds though disrupting an address line or data line in such a way that the system just doesn't function as desired because the programs execution got disrupted because a bit or two got corrupted by injected noise. Assembly programs (actually all of them) can get off in the weeds pretty quick if you let me change a bit or two on the address lines or data being fetched. There is nothing wrong with the processor or anything else, except that it's off happily fetching it's next instruction from the wrong place. The execution was "upset" by the induced noise, but nothing need be damaged, even slightly to make it happen. You just need to induce some small signal at the right place and time and a 1 becomes a 0 or a 0 becomes a 1. Such signals can be well within the designed capacity for all the components involved at the card level.

      --
      "File to fit, pound to insert, paint to match" - Aircraft Maintenance 101
    60. Re:Just wait until... by yurtinus · · Score: 2

      Think long and hard about that Volvo. Do you want a car vulnerable to a very specific RF attack, or do you want one whose Lucas Electric system could fail at any second?

      ~proud 1800 owner

      --
      +1 Disagree
    61. Re:Just wait until... by Charliemopps · · Score: 1

      It's called a mazer en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maser
      Very friggen easy to make. It's basically a radiation Laser (lasers came AFTER masers)
      If they have a reactor in orbit (of course they do) this would be a pretty simple addition and could be used to kill, destroy electronics, whatever.

      During the opening days of the Iraq war, CNN was reporting that the US military took out Iraqi power plants using "some kind of beam weapon" I saw the report with my own eyes and was immediately riveted. They never mentioned it again until later they talked about bombers dropping graphite chaf to short out the power stations and disrupt power. That was the day I realized we do not have a free media.

    62. Re:Just wait until... by Holi · · Score: 1

      Actually according to military studies, emp weapons don't have that much effect on pacemakers, probably due to the shielding provided by the liquid composition of the body (my theory not the papers, I didn't read it fully).

      http://oai.dtic.mil/oai/oai?verb=getRecord&metadataPrefix=html&identifier=ADA242990

      --
      Sorry, teleporters just kill you and then make a copy. A perfect, soul-less copy.
    63. Re:Just wait until... by luther349 · · Score: 1

      yep you can make a emp from a microwave transformer and satellite dish point the beam at some electronics it will fry them. of course such a thing is not safe for anything living. it can also be done with super powerful ham radio transmitters they can emit enough radiation to fry things.

    64. Re:Just wait until... by luther349 · · Score: 1

      yea in best case such a thing would only be used to end a hi speed chase n a hi profile charge say murder and not one for a petty crime. but that's not the world we live in look how often cops abuse tasers

    65. Re:Just wait until... by mrbester · · Score: 1

      It's worse than that. Most cars, even piddly shit small engine ones have power steering to help against the front wheel drive inertia. You lose electrical power and you suddenly get an unsteerable lump of metal on wheels travelling at 70mph. Unless you've got considerable strength you're going to keep going in the same direction which is guaranteed to be into oncoming traffic.

      Plus your brakes won't work as effectively either. Yanking on the handbrake in panic will cause the rear wheels to lock up and probably put you in a spin. At 70mph. Into the aforementioned oncoming traffic.

      --
      "Wait. Something's happening. It's opening up! My God, it's full of apricots!"
    66. Re:Just wait until... by sjames · · Score: 1

      One wonders if they also made sure a DBS or a cochlear implant won't be affected. Particularly if it won't accidentally trigger a seizure.

      Not to mention that if it is used on a car at highway speed and suddenly the anti-lock brakes go crazy and the power steering is lost, it could be bad.

      Shutting down an insulin pump could get fairly ugly as well.

    67. Re:Just wait until... by davydagger · · Score: 1

      if you put your hands on a firing ignition wire, the jolt is enough to make your head spin like you've smacked hard.

      The amount of energy travelling on a spark plug wire is more than a microwave oven.

    68. Re: Just wait until... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      This study is from 1991. Pacemakers nowadays are much different from pacemakers from 22 years ago.

    69. Re:Just wait until... by The_Wilschon · · Score: 1
      --
      SIGSEGV caught, terminating

      wait... not that kind of sig.
    70. Re:Just wait until... by rtb61 · · Score: 1

      In this case what is old is new again. I think this 'new' technology was covered on slashdot over a decade ago. Problem then as now, some idiot in a uniform using it to near an airport with the inevitable consequences, as well as of course knocking out unintended vehicles.

      --
      Chaos - everything, everywhere, everywhen
    71. Re:Just wait until... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Three words: Heterodyne signal processing.

    72. Re:Just wait until... by BadPirate · · Score: 1

      It might also have to be a sustained disruption. I've messed with timing signals on a car before and they sputter and gag, but only if the signal is messed up for a sustained period do they die. Pistons will keep pumping even through a few misfires...

      --
      - Holy crap, I've got MOD points! Who thought that was a good idea.
    73. Re: Just wait until... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I'm sure the "disruption, not damage" thing is going to be very reassuring to the guy with a pacemaker.

      More generally, it's going to be very hard to calibrate field strength for this kind of thing to shut down car electronics without damaging any electronics: it works by turning wires into antennas and inducing enough voltage to confuse the device on one end of that wire. Due to the range of normal operating voltages in different devices -- or even different circuits within one device -- one voltage level might be too low to confuse some devices but high enough to damage others.

      Another potential issue is when enough voltage is induced to disrupt communications, but instead of everything "crashing", only a few things get confused while others continue to function. For example, and yes I realize this is a 'long shot', what happens if the only thing which gets confused is the Throttle Control mechanism, and the pulse causes it to 'jam' in a "wide open" state?

    74. Re:Just wait until... by cbiltcliffe · · Score: 1

      Think long and hard about that Volvo. Do you want a car vulnerable to a very specific RF attack, or do you want one whose Lucas Electric system could fail at any second?

      ~proud 1800 owner

      In England, Lucas Electrics - or more specifically, Joe Lucas, it's founder/owner - was frequently referred to as "Prince of Darkness."

      On the other hand, they did invent intermittent wipers and self-dimming headlights.....

      --
      "City hall" in German is "Rathaus" Kinda explains a few things......
    75. Re:Just wait until... by rubycodez · · Score: 1

      not true at all, there are many kinds of EMP and some occur in civilian equipment. Lightning makes a type of EMP

      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electromagnetic_pulse

    76. Re:Just wait until... by chihowa · · Score: 1

      Wikipedia has a great article on the physics of explosively pumped flux compression generators (which is so much more fun to say than e-bomb).

      --
      If you want a vision of the future, imagine a youtube comments section scrolling - forever.
    77. Re:Just wait until... by cbiltcliffe · · Score: 1

      Somebody better at electronics could tell us if you can disrupt an ignition coil before doing bad things to the driver... I'm guessing "yes."

      I doubt it. Every old ignition coil I've ever seen was contained in a steel canister, which was bolted to the engine block for a good, solid ground connection; basically, a built-in Faraday cage.
      You're certainly not going to be able to disrupt it on the secondary side where you're running multiple tens of thousands of volts.
      There's a usually *very* short wire running from the points in the distributor to the primary side, which could potentially be disrupted, but it would have to be a brutally powerful pulse, considering the length of that wire. On some more recent (relatively speaking, of course) GM cars, the coil was actually mounted in a hollow on the top of the distributor cap, with no exposed wiring at all.
      On top of that, the way points-style ignitions systems work is that a voltage is applied to the primary side of the coil, and when you want it to spark, the points *open*, and the collapse of the magnetic field from the primary is what induces the high voltage for the spark from the secondary side.
      This tiny wire would be almost impossible to disrupt on the primary side, because it's not what we typically think of as a control voltage; you'd basically have to induce a permanent current in the primary side, in order to prevent the collapse of the magnetic field. That would mean your EMP would have to be strong enough to cause an arc across the open points, in order to keep current flowing in what would then be an open circuit.
      I'm guessing anything strong enough to do this is going to fry virtually any living organism in the immediate vicinity, not to mention it would probably have power requirements that would be more expensive than just crashing a few police cars into the target vehicle......

      --
      "City hall" in German is "Rathaus" Kinda explains a few things......
    78. Re:Just wait until... by melikamp · · Score: 1

      Meh. The law affects a person's mobility to a far greater extent than any EMP gizmo. The police already can stop almost any car by shooting the driver in the head. This only gives them an ability to stop most cars in a more safe way. Having the right to go anywhere as a free person, and being able to do so in a vehicle powered by free software is far more crucial.

    79. Re: Just wait until... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      That's what they needed to tell Dick Cheney, though...

    80. Re:Just wait until... by cbiltcliffe · · Score: 1

      "Front wheel drive inertia?" WTF? So rear wheel drive cars don't need power steering? Are you just making shit up?

      Power steering exists to make steering easier due to the weight of the vehicle resting on the wheels you're trying to turn. It has absolutely zilch to do with what wheels are used to drive the car forward.

      Having said that, if the power steering fails on even the heaviest car at 70MPH, it doesn't take anywhere near the effort to steer it manually at that speed that it does at 5 MPH. Manual steering gets progressively easier as speed increases, due to less friction as you try to turn the quicker-rotating wheels. In fact, in a lot of cars you can hardly tell the difference between manual and power steering at speeds above about 40MPH.
      Braking, I'll give you, although power brake systems typically give you at least 2 full pedal depresses due to retained vacuum, even with complete engine failure. So, unless somebody starts pumping the brakes when their engine dies, which would be a completely moronic thing to do - meaning there's a non-trivial portion of the population who would probably do exactly that - then they won't have a problem bringing the car to a stop, either.

      --
      "City hall" in German is "Rathaus" Kinda explains a few things......
    81. Re: Just wait until... by Eskarel · · Score: 1

      It sort of depends what it's used for. Deploying it willy nilly is probably a bad idea, but when compared to spike strips and other mechanisms currently used to stop cars whose drivers don't want to stop them it seems dramatically safer for both the driver and more importantly everyone else around them.

    82. Re:Just wait until... by Eskarel · · Score: 1

      That'd be a pretty impressive feat, hitting something as small as a car and only that car with any kind of radio signal let alone this specific frequency from even LEO would be damned difficult if not impossible.If the NSA really wanted to do this for some reason they'd be better off mandating that cars have a remote stop system built into them. Making something that works in a range of a matter of meters work at a range of several miles is not a trivial engineering problem.

    83. Re:Just wait until... by Eskarel · · Score: 1

      Safe is a relative term, compare this to spike strips.

    84. Re:Just wait until... by Eskarel · · Score: 1

      Theoretically you shouldn't be so close to the car in front of you that you'd plow into them even if they slammed on the breaks, let alone just lost power, but of course the world is full of tail gating idiots.

    85. Re:Just wait until... by Eskarel · · Score: 1

      Laser, yes, though with current technology it'd have to be pretty damned big to get enough power to do any damage, radio nope.

    86. Re:Just wait until... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Hardy ha ha. Maybe back in 1908. Not these days.

    87. Re:Just wait until... by mrbester · · Score: 1

      Why then do small cars have it? Bigger cars, fair enough, but a two door Fiesta?

      And, no, I'm not making shit up. I've had complete electrical failure in a big ass Volvo at speed. Not remotely funny.

      --
      "Wait. Something's happening. It's opening up! My God, it's full of apricots!"
    88. Re: Just wait until... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Oooh! Let's test this on Dick Cheney!

    89. Re:Just wait until... by hot+soldering+iron · · Score: 1

      Like possibly, a pacemaker?

      --
      When you want something built, come see me. If you want correct grammar and spelling, get a F*ing liberal arts student.
    90. Re:Just wait until... by hambone142 · · Score: 1

      I agree with you. The results would be unpredictable. It's possible that semiconductor "latchup" could occur which would catastrophically damage circuits in the ECM of the vehicle. I don't believe this would be an issue of temporarily disabling the vehicle. It is impossible to tell how various designs would respond to a high level RF field but I'd place my money on irreparable damage to circuitry.

    91. Re: Just wait until... by fractoid · · Score: 1

      The voltage required is much smaller now than it was 20 years ago. You could probably do it by inducing enough voltage to mess up the CAN communications, which should only take a few volts.

      --
      Rampant carbon sequestration destroyed the Dinosaurs' tropical paradise. I'm here to help repair the damage.
    92. Re:Just wait until... by LBt1st · · Score: 2

      Police beat and kill people (and pets) on a regular bases and hell has yet to be paid.
      Why would anything change when they start wrecking vehicles, electronics and pacemakers?

    93. Re:Just wait until... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Nope. You might be surprised what you can do with a magnet, loops of wire and some explosives.

    94. Re:Just wait until... by zugmeister · · Score: 5, Insightful

      A simple Google search for "non-nuclear EMP"...

      and as an added bonus probably gets you added to several lists maintained by govt agencies, such as the no-fly list

      I want to mod you funny for this. But somehow it's not really funny anymore.

    95. Re:Just wait until... by solidraven · · Score: 1

      Yeah especially considering the sort of energy you'd have to pump into it to cause such an effect on that type of range. Additionally this no longer qualifies as a near-field application either, so it'll make the ISM band useless near it. Yay!

    96. Re:Just wait until... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      any radio tech could build you one.

    97. Re:Just wait until... by Arrepiadd · · Score: 1

      I wonder if a country could actually orbit a satellite with enough power and a spot beam to stop cars in an entire city... in the name of anti-terrorism, of course.

      Sure... and in the process kill all other electronics. Use satellite to prevent a terrorist car from moving to its target in NY city. Leave the entire city to deal with the economic (and social) impacts of shutting it down for 10 minutes.

    98. Re: Just wait until... by nbritton · · Score: 1

      Yeah they do, they're called ICBMs...

      I'm more worried about the damaging effects this would have to the cars electronics and the people inside it. God help the police if it's later found to cause cancer. I would think an energy weapon, which is what this is, would need the FDA to sign off that the device is safe to use on humans. Furthermore, it's illegal to use the RF spectrum without a permit from the FCC, so presumably they're using the 2.4 GHz ISM band, if this is true, then it's not safe to point at any life form.

    99. Re:Just wait until... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      those high-powered NSA satellites can do this from orbit.

      .
      Five words: wavelength. Antenna size. Beam width.

      One word: Classified.

    100. Re: Just wait until... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      In other news, Depleted Uranium munitions are safe to eat, Agent Orange has zero effects on living humans, interrogation is not torture unless major organ failures are involved, and our president is secretly a kenyan muslim communist.

    101. Re:Just wait until... by berashith · · Score: 2

      that is why you search for " non-nuclear EMP but I am not a terrorist"

    102. Re: Just wait until... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      There aren't any wires long enough in a pacemaker to allow sufficient energy to couple to cause issues. Not unless they are using a frequency high enough (and with enough power) to cause much more immediate damage to the person.

    103. Re:Just wait until... by delt0r · · Score: 1

      A person can back-load an old portable generator into a transformer and create an EMP that will theoretically immobilize all electronics within a 3-block radius.

      Err... i like to see that theory. Because BOEC says no it can't.

      --
      If information wants to be free, why does my internet connection cost so much?
    104. Re:Just wait until... by yurtinus · · Score: 1

      On the other hand, they did invent intermittent wipers and self-dimming headlights.....

      ...I giggled

      --
      +1 Disagree
    105. Re:Just wait until... by yurtinus · · Score: 1

      The More You Know!

      Thanks for clarifying. Now I know if I'm involved in a high-speed chase, I should do it in my old Volvo. I'm pretty sure the cops on Segways couldn't keep up...

      --
      +1 Disagree
    106. Re:Just wait until... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Most cars in tests could withstand at least 100 keV of EMP without damage or even interference.

    107. Re: Just wait until... by Whitworth_Thread · · Score: 1

      This is why it is quite important to make / upgrade your aluminum foil hats with large brims...

    108. Re:Just wait until... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      ...how about just attaching a lightning rod to a lamp post and waiting for a thunderstorm?

    109. Re:Just wait until... by semi-extrinsic · · Score: 1

      For reference, the vehicles that have been built for riot control using RF radiation (which obviously put out much less power than an EMP, otherwise they wouldn't be usable in cities) have charge-up times of more than a day, and they're probably supplied by 480V three-phase at several hundred amps.

      The "Project Thumper", as someone below mentioned, charges the capacitor bank at 110V 20 A for a few minutes, so that's roughly 4*10*60*24= 60 000 times less energy than something which has much less energy than an EMP. Myth busted.

      --
      for i in `facebook friends "=bday" 2>/dev/null | cut -d " " -f 3-`; do facebook wallpost $i "Happy birthday!"; done
    110. Re:Just wait until... by CanHasDIY · · Score: 1

      For reference, the vehicles that have been built for riot control using RF radiation (which obviously put out much less power than an EMP, otherwise they wouldn't be usable in cities) have charge-up times of more than a day, and they're probably supplied by 480V three-phase at several hundred amps.

      Citation?

      Not being an argumentative dick, just want to see what you're talking about... sounds kinda cool.

      --
      An enigma, wrapped in a riddle, shrouded in bacon and cheese
    111. Re:Just wait until... by semi-extrinsic · · Score: 1

      Well, the US military has one called Active Denial System, but that's not the one I was thinking about. I can't seem to find any good links at the moment, sorry :( But it looks like the ADS is not very popular anymore with the military (never been used in the field), so I'm guessing they scrapped the civilan versions. Too much negative PR potential for a riot control device.

      You could have a look at the ATLAS-I machine built at Sandia in the 70's, they used it for simulated EMP testing. 200 gigawatts @ 10 megavolts, focused at ~50 m distance.

      --
      for i in `facebook friends "=bday" 2>/dev/null | cut -d " " -f 3-`; do facebook wallpost $i "Happy birthday!"; done
    112. Re:Just wait until... by CanHasDIY · · Score: 1

      You could have a look at the ATLAS-I machine built at Sandia in the 70's, they used it for simulated EMP testing. 200 gigawatts @ 10 megavolts, focused at ~50 m distance.

      That's good to know, in case that DeLorean I built runs out of juice in 1976... again.

      --
      An enigma, wrapped in a riddle, shrouded in bacon and cheese
    113. Re:Just wait until... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Ah, Lucas. How much more would I have driven without you?

    114. Re:Just wait until... by cbiltcliffe · · Score: 1

      Why then do small cars have it? Bigger cars, fair enough, but a two door Fiesta?

      The lightest Fiesta still weighs well over a ton, unladen. Assuming the weight distribution will be front biased, with it being a front engine/front wheel drive car, that's probably 650 lbs on each front wheel, before you put a person in the car.
      That will be easy to steer at speed, but not necessarily in a parking lot.
      Then there's the fact that people expect power steering on a car, regardless of whether it really needs it or not.

      Besides, most rear wheel drive cars are bigger cars. So if "front wheel drive inertia" is the reason for power steering, then why are you now claiming that bigger cars need power steering, when those same cars are less likely to be front wheel drive?

      And, no, I'm not making shit up. I've had complete electrical failure in a big ass Volvo at speed. Not remotely funny.

      Great. Good for you. WTF does this have to do with your "front wheel drive inertia" thing? For that matter, was your "big ass Volvo" a FWD or RWD car?
      I've driven a 1/2 ton GMC pickup truck with a blown power steering hose before. Weighed about 2 tons, and a complete pig to park in that state. Get it out on the highway, though, and the steering felt a little heavy, but was perfectly usable.

      --
      "City hall" in German is "Rathaus" Kinda explains a few things......
  3. And,,, by QA · · Score: 1

    What could possibly go wrong!

    1. Re:And,,, by Freshly+Exhumed · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Radar pulses, eh? Cooked internal organs, that's what could go wrong.

      --
      I deny that I have not avoided attaining the opposite of that which I do not want.
    2. Re:And,,, by JustOK · · Score: 1

      It would ruin the chianti too.

      --
      rewriting history since 2109
    3. Re:And,,, by rot26 · · Score: 1

      Cataracts happen at more common energy levels. Not as hard to deal with these days, but for the megawatt radar techs back in the 60's and 70's it was a pretty big problem.

      --



      To ensure perfect aim, shoot first and call whatever you hit the target
    4. Re:And,,, by NatasRevol · · Score: 1

      But the fava beans would be perfect.

      --
      There are two types of people in the world: Those who crave closure
    5. Re:And,,, by volvox_voxel · · Score: 1

      I have a engineer friend that accidentally walked in front of a radar dish that I think was placed inside of the nose cone of a fighter jet. He immediately lost his lunch; such response, I am told, is pretty typical with exposure, and they tend to be very careful about letter people know that they're on, and where the antennas are pointed..

    6. Re:And,,, by interkin3tic · · Score: 1

      If I were a weapons manufacturer trying to sell this, I might describe that as a "bonus feature."

    7. Re:And,,, by geekoid · · Score: 1

      A friend of mine walked in front of a radar dish and turned into Bigfoot.

      --
      The Kruger Dunning explains most post on /. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect
  4. Lovely by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Wonder what people with pace makers would think about this thing when it stops their pace maker. Oh sorry, we didn't intend to kill you for a small traffic violation.

    1. Re:Lovely by Mordok-DestroyerOfWo · · Score: 2

      Pacemakers are typically hardened against this sort of thing. Link

      --
      "Never let your sense of morals prevent you from doing what is right" - Salvor Hardin
  5. Roof mounted by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Can this be roof mounted toward the back of my car? Cya huge SUV following me from 5ft with xeon headlight!

    1. Re:Roof mounted by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      There was an article here on /. a few years ago about a hack by some geeks with a high powered RF generator in a van, and they trained it on some loud-stereo-playing cars behind them with excellent results. Anybody recall the details?

    2. Re:Roof mounted by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      nope just forward facing, see that huge suv coming at ya as you stall...

  6. Pros vs Cons by ilsaloving · · Score: 1

    This kind of thing would be ripe for abuse, but how many times have we heard/read about police chases which result in massive collateral damage and people getting killed?

    I'm torn, but this seems like a really good thing for police to have. Especially if it can be directed so that it only affects the target.

    1. Re:Pros vs Cons by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I guess spike strips are too complicated to use??

    2. Re:Pros vs Cons by mlts · · Score: 5, Insightful

      There will be a lot of blowback from this device:

      1: As mentioned above, if it fries pacemakers, insulin pumps, or heart plugs, how will wrongful death lawsuits be handled?

      2: If used on a motorcycle, it can mean the rider can lose control, causing a crash, fatality, and lawsuits.

      3: If used on a car, most cars are drive-by-wire. This means that brakes and steering will be made inoperable in some cars, causing an instant wreck... and subsequent lawsuits. Other cars will still have mechanical brakes and steering, but most people are used to power-assisted brakes and steering... and having their vehicle handle way differently can also cause a wreck... and lawsuit.

      4: What happens if another car is hit? Radio waves can be directed in unexpected places. Yet another wreck possiblity and lawsuit.

      5: Of course, the bad guys will have this technology sooner or later. Now, watch stretches of I-10 become nice kill zones for thieves who are desiring either pickup trucks for Mexican drug runs, or just to pop caps in people once their car is stopped to get soldier status in their gang.

      Bad idea all around... well all but for the attorneys who will make a mint from this.

    3. Re:Pros vs Cons by EvanED · · Score: 1

      Spike strips require the police to be able to predict where the runner is going to go, for the runner to not steer around them, and for the runner to not keep going despite a flat. They're also not exactly safe.

    4. Re:Pros vs Cons by Antipater · · Score: 2, Insightful

      how many times have we heard/read about police chases which result in massive collateral damage and people getting killed?

      Not all that many?

      --
      Everything is better with chainsaws.
    5. Re:Pros vs Cons by silas_moeckel · · Score: 5, Informative

      Option 2 stop chasing them? The FBI's research pretty much shows that they are simply dangerous http://www.fbi.gov/stats-services/publications/law-enforcement-bulletin/march-2010/evidence-based-decisions-on-police-pursuits they show that most chases are for minor offences and that the suspects will quickly return to safe driving after the chase is stopped. Pretty much car chases are cops getting an adrenaline rush at the expense of the public.

      --
      No sir I dont like it.
    6. Re:Pros vs Cons by Jack+Malmostoso · · Score: 1

      About your point #3, can you make an example of a currently commercially available car without a steering column? I don't think they exist.

    7. Re:Pros vs Cons by DutchUncle · · Score: 2

      ... "target" being defined as "everything downrange" . . .

    8. Re:Pros vs Cons by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Insightful

      But then you have a 2 to 5 ton vehicle with no ability to control it.

      That kinetic energy doesn't just disappear and at the kind of speeds that would occasion the use of such a device, that car is probably going to slam into something: a house, bus full of orphans, kitten factory, etc. The summary says it drove toward the device at 15mph. I'd like to see what happens at 50mph, 100mph or on something like a fully loaded truck.

      Additionally, and perhaps more horrifying, is that "Digital audio and video recording devices in the vehicle were also affected". As police, roll into a 'riot' with one of these going and you don't have to worry about the people involved filming you when you are standing next to someone who 'kept falling down of their own accord, honest, pinky swear'

    9. Re:Pros vs Cons by CanHasDIY · · Score: 1

      This kind of thing would be ripe for abuse, but how many times have we heard/read about police chases which result in massive collateral damage and people getting killed?

      Enough times to know that the issue might be with the cowboy cops themselves, engaging suspects in high-speed chases through heavily populated metro areas.

      YEEE-HAW, We's gunna git us a bad guy, no matter how many civilians have to die in the process!

      --
      An enigma, wrapped in a riddle, shrouded in bacon and cheese
    10. Re:Pros vs Cons by mlts · · Score: 1

      Infiniti Q50?

    11. Re:Pros vs Cons by Sarten-X · · Score: 2

      1. Lawsuits will be handled by the lawyers, but they'll be pretty bored, because the EMTs will handle the people having heart attacks at a traffic stop.

      2. Or the rider could just slow down to a stop like any other vehicle.

      3. [citation needed]. The first drive-by-wire cars are just coming out now, and they still have mechanical fallbacks.

      4. Lawyers again, but since this is a device with push-button control (rather than a slow manual deployment like spike strips), the officer in charge can abort the operation if a situation looks dangerous.

      5. Just like they do now with tacks, spikes, and opportunities every time someone runs out of gas.

      --
      You do not have a moral or legal right to do absolutely anything you want.
    12. Re:Pros vs Cons by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Motorcycles would not be impacted as much as a car. Brakes + steering are hydraulic.

    13. Re:Pros vs Cons by Zontar_Thing_From_Ve · · Score: 4, Insightful

      5: Of course, the bad guys will have this technology sooner or later. Now, watch stretches of I-10 become nice kill zones for thieves who are desiring either pickup trucks for Mexican drug runs, or just to pop caps in people once their car is stopped to get soldier status in their gang.

      I was thinking this too. Also, I shudder at the thought of some, say, 14 year old kids getting their hands on a cheap device that can do this and thinking it's "fun" to stop random cars while hiding behind a bush with no thought given to the consequences. I've read about kids throwing heavy and dangerous objects from heights onto unsuspecting people/cars below them. I'm sure this will appeal to the same people.

    14. Re:Pros vs Cons by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Let's also not forget that the most basic thing the ECU controls in the car is spark. Anyone who works with cars can tell you extremely bad things start to happen if ignition happens at the wrong time. Like ruined beyond repair engines.

    15. Re:Pros vs Cons by WPIDalamar · · Score: 1

      Even the Q50 has a mechanical fail-safe.

    16. Re:Pros vs Cons by afidel · · Score: 2

      Police officers using lawful force in the course of their duties are generally immune from lawsuits, as are the departments that hire them. It's not like stop sticks, tazers, batons, teargas, flashbangs or firearms are inherently safe but we allow law enforcement to use them against suspected criminals on a daily basis.

      --
      There are 4 boxes to use in the defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, ammo. Use in that order. Starting now.
    17. Re:Pros vs Cons by TangoMargarine · · Score: 1

      2. Or the rider could just slow down to a stop like any other vehicle.

      Because the cops have demonstrated so well that they can resist the urge to taser people who don't need it. If this gets widely deployed, we can assume they'll start routinely popping cars with it before even turning on their lights.

      --
      Unity? Screw that: XFCE. Slashdot Beta? Screw that: SoylentNews. Australis? Screw that: Pale Moon. UX developers DIAF
    18. Re:Pros vs Cons by jimshatt · · Score: 1

      But that means that trying to outrun the police is a viable option, since they won't chase you, probably.

      No, the problem is that minor offenders turn to outrunning too easily because they're scared. That is the real problem, IMO. If you knew that everything would be okay when you just pulled over and talked with the cop, maybe get a ticket, maybe a warning if you're lucky. But IRL cops are too macho / power hungry and offenders too easily scared.

    19. Re:Pros vs Cons by mspohr · · Score: 1

      Would be much easier and better to just not start a high speed chase in the first place and avoid the risk of police mayhem.
      I liked this idea much better:
      http://www.gizmag.com/starchase-gps-police-tracking/29590/
      Just zap the perp with a GPS and follow him at leisure.

      --
      I don't read your sig. Why are you reading mine?
    20. Re:Pros vs Cons by jandrese · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Are fly by wire brakes even legal? It was my understanding that there must always be a mechanical linkage between the brake pedal and the brakes, just to give you a hail mary if your brake booter craps out.

      --

      I read the internet for the articles.
    21. Re:Pros vs Cons by punker · · Score: 3, Informative

      I think he may have been reappropriating the term "drive by wire". It would not be in reference to the ford "drive by wire" system (electronic control system that appears the same as a traditional mechanical column). More likely meaning that power steering and power breaking require the engine chip to be functioning to operate.

      And he is correct that those subsystems cut out with the engine. My vehicle recently had a vacuum leak. The engine stalled out as I was breaking. No power steering, no power breaking. It was not a good situation. The car behind me very nearly plowed into me when the light flipped to green.

    22. Re:Pros vs Cons by mspohr · · Score: 4, Informative

      According to this BI article: http://www.businessinsider.com/the-high-tech-gps-tracker-that-is-a-game-changer-for-police-2013-11

      "High-speed pursuits cause nearly 400 deaths a year and cost the government more than a billion dollars a year in damages, lawsuits, and medical bills."
      "... Fischbach says that in most pursuits a minimum of $3,000 in property damage occurs."

      --
      I don't read your sig. Why are you reading mine?
    23. Re:Pros vs Cons by myth24601 · · Score: 2

      Power brakes work on engine vacuum and should give a couple of normal pumps without any difference after the engine stops and then they will work un-powered and just require more effort.

      Turn off your car and pump the brakes and you can see how this works.

      --
      No matter where you go, there you are.
    24. Re:Pros vs Cons by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Point #5 is not actually a valid point to support your argument, because you can't keep criminals from acquiring technology. If the technology exists, you have to assume they already have it (even if it's just an expensive prototype); the criminals will still have it whether or not you successfully prohibit/restrict the manufacture/sale of the device.

      However, point #5 will be argued by auto-makers, and it will allow them to pass legislation that makes it legal for them to install countermeasures "for driver safety near the US/Mexico border."

    25. Re:Pros vs Cons by bogibear · · Score: 1

      Good points, however, brake systems and steering systems, while having some level of power assist in most vehicles, is still largely mechanical. You still have mechanical steering that would still work and the brakes still have hydraulic fluid that would still push the pistons in the calipers even without power assist. It would require more physical strength to steer or brake, but both systems would work. Try turning your car off (safely, while driving slowly) in a parking lot and see for yourself.

      And this technology probably wouldn't work on any vehicle that predates ECUs. So you get anything from the 1970's or earlier (maybe a few in the 80's) that couldn't be stopped. Savvy folk would probably decide to add some shielding to the ECUs, but whether that would work remains to be seen.

      The article also states that they tested at 15mph. What happens when you're doing 95mph or more?

      So now this technology is out there and it gets into the criminal's hands. Ostensibly, they could drop these out the window of their car and have it shutdown police cars. Or armored trucks.

      Time for me to get an extra large tinfoil hat for my car.

    26. Re:Pros vs Cons by bob_super · · Score: 1

      6: Local dealer frying cars of the right make. Profit!

      because flipping bits in your computer-laden car as it's operating is highly likely to be permanent.
      You don't just go ahead and drive it off five minutes later if you corrupted the microcontrollers.

      "That'll be $3000 for a new computer, maaam! Nope, it's not under warranty"

    27. Re:Pros vs Cons by Altus · · Score: 1

      hydraulic steering in a motorcycle?

      Not that it would be that hard to deal with one of these on a bike, I have had my bike stall under me several times (running close to reserve) and I can usually just flip the switch, hit the starter and ride on... if this were a single pulse I would think you could do the same thing to avoid being caught... I would guess that it stays on till the vehicle is secured.

      --

      "In America, first you get the sugar, then you get the power, then you get the women..." -H. Simpson

    28. Re:Pros vs Cons by dAzED1 · · Score: 1

      even despite whether one exists, steering has been assisted ("power" steering) for quite a long while now - some cars are nearly impossible to steer without it. As an example, when in highschool I worked rodeos and baled hay for my off-school activities, and I was a linebacker on my school team. I had, at the time, a truck and a car - the car was a 1979 mercedes 280sel. I had the good fortune of having a sudden engine failure while going about 60mpg on a very curvy road (2222 near Austin) and had a *really* hard time, despite being a pretty buff fellow, keeping the car on the road. I've been in other cars where the power steering made quite a lot of difference (but none quite as much as that mercedes...). That car also had an electro-mechanical fuel injection system, as well as electronic controlled braking system. And, it weighed almost 3 tons. So whether or not an actual mechanical failsafe exists for the steering wheel on a 2013/2014 vehicle, A) there are other vehicles on the road too, and B) non-assisted steering is very difficult on many cars, even new ones

    29. Re:Pros vs Cons by epyT-R · · Score: 0

      rofl.. 'we allow'. More like "we have no choice" and "the state demands." The problem with such weapons is that they're labeled 'non lethal' because they don't always kill, and so cops use them with more impunity than they would a normal firearm. There are plenty of cases of cops abusing tasers and getting away with it, many resulting in death and nerve damage. This EMP gun or whatever it is is just another tool ripe for abuse thanks to that legal immunity shield. Of course, this is the UK, which has few protections for individual rights to begin with, but since this police state mentality is spreading worldwide, expect to find this fuckery here in the states too. 'The People' decide whether you live or die, COPS (tv show) style.

      These tools, like police sidearms, were meant to deal with people who are threatening to/in the process of harming a whole lot of people in a very short period of time. They were never meant to zap someone because he refused to let a cop stick a finger up his ass "looking for drugs," or 70yo people in wheelchairs. Before granting any further power to these people, I'd like society to focus on improving accountability of public officials, from politicians to police.

    30. Re:Pros vs Cons by jklovanc · · Score: 4, Insightful

      The issue is that many people who run from the police when chased for a minor traffic violation are not running to avoid the the ticket. They are usually running because they are wanted on another, much more serious, charge. By not chasing we would let serious criminals get away. For example ,serial murderer Ted Bundy who killed over 22 women, and the Atlanta child killer, Wayne Williams, who killed 28, were apprehended because of traffic stops.

      As another poster pointed out, a publicized no chase policy will just encourage people to run. It does not take long for an accident to happen. For example, a famous computer programmer was struck killed by a fleeing motorist within 2km of the start of the chase.

    31. Re:Pros vs Cons by justthinkit · · Score: 1

      I imagine Prius and equivalent cars don't have this. Some computer is choosing when, after you push the brake pedal, to actually use the brakes.

      --
      I come here for the love
    32. Re:Pros vs Cons by afidel · · Score: 1

      Actually in the law enforcement community they're always called less lethal and always have been, only uninformed idiots (sadly often including 'journalists') call them non-lethal.

      --
      There are 4 boxes to use in the defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, ammo. Use in that order. Starting now.
    33. Re:Pros vs Cons by mlts · · Score: 1

      Another issues are vehicles that can take control of the steering wheel to parallel park. How can we be sure that they decide not to hit hard left/right because some glitch caused a controller to send those instructions down the CANBus to tell it to do that. It may not be a big deal, or it might be something that the driver will have difficulty "fighting". Plus, a complete revolution of the wheel at 88-104 kph (55-65 mph) likely will flip most vehicles, or at least get them off the road.

      This isn't to blame the auto makers -- they never realized that people will be deliberately trying to get their vehicles to go haywire. However it might be something they should consider so if the vehicle fails, it fails in a state that at least renders it operable until it stops.

    34. Re:Pros vs Cons by jimicus · · Score: 2

      He doesn't need to.

      A car with power steering has MUCH heavier steering when the power steering's failed versus an equivalent model that never had power steering fitted in the first place. To the point where even steering a moving vehicle is damn hard work.

    35. Re:Pros vs Cons by couchslug · · Score: 5, Informative

      "2: If used on a motorcycle, it can mean the rider can lose control, causing a crash, fatality, and lawsuits."

      MC mechanic of many years here.
      Not especially likely. MCs aren't drive-by-wire other than EFI and engine shutdown takes out no control systems. Manual steering and brake make for simple stopping when your engine quits.

      "3: If used on a car, most cars are drive-by-wire."

      No, they are not. Most have power-assisted but mechanically linked steering and brakes. If you are trying to stop someone in a high-speed chase shutting them down is far safer than chasing them until they crash.

      --
      "This post is an artistic work of fiction and falsehood. Only a fool would take anything posted here as fact."
    36. Re:Pros vs Cons by amicusNYCL · · Score: 1

      If used on a motorcycle, it can mean the rider can lose control, causing a crash, fatality, and lawsuits.

      What is the alternative for safely stopping a speeding motorcycle?

      --
      "Our two-party system is like a bowl of shit looking at itself in a mirror." - Lewis Black
    37. Re:Pros vs Cons by jxander · · Score: 1

      But that means that trying to outrun the police is a viable option, since they won't chase you, probably. No, the problem is that minor offenders turn to outrunning too easily because they're scared. That is the real problem, IMO. If you knew that everything would be okay when you just pulled over and talked with the cop, maybe get a ticket, maybe a warning if you're lucky. But IRL cops are too macho / power hungry and offenders too easily scared.

      It means that trying to run is a viable option if and only if you're willing to ditch your car, identity, job, etc. As soon as the cops get an eyeball on you, they've got your license plates, make, model, etc. The driver is also probably on camera somewhere, so they'll be able to track down your car with relative ease, and from there, track back to you. If all else fails, there's probably a helicopter in the area that can keep tabs on you from the sky. Pretty sure you're not outrunning that.

      --
      This signature is false.
    38. Re:Pros vs Cons by Em+Adespoton · · Score: 4, Insightful

      This kind of thing would be ripe for abuse, but how many times have we heard/read about police chases which result in massive collateral damage and people getting killed?

      I'm torn, but this seems like a really good thing for police to have. Especially if it can be directed so that it only affects the target.

      People said the same thing about Tasers.

    39. Re:Pros vs Cons by silas_moeckel · · Score: 1

      The FBI's own stats show that about a quarter have outstanding warrants etc. Stolen cares being the most prevalent DUI's a bit under a quarter and suspended licences another quarter with not much left for the remainder.

      Not chasing and getting away are two complete different things. High speed chases are so dangerous to others and the police they need to be avoided in all but the more serious cases.

      --
      No sir I dont like it.
    40. Re:Pros vs Cons by Garridan · · Score: 1

      rofl.. 'we allow'.

      Damned right we do. Go back and re-read the Declaration of Independence and the context in which it was written. Governments rule until their citizens revolt. We collectively allow the police to behave the way we do because a revolution is currently less appealing than the status quo.

    41. Re:Pros vs Cons by BiggoronSword · · Score: 1

      I for one would prefer to see this device used ON police; rather than, BY police.

      --
      interactive hologram, or it didn't happen.
    42. Re:Pros vs Cons by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Technically, they could ban this practice altogether in the UK, between the police helicopter and the extensive CCTV network that has automatic license plate recognition, they could just go to the last seen place the car was and search for them, if it isn't a stolen car, they could even radio in for another police unit to camp outside their home address waiting to arrest them.

    43. Re:Pros vs Cons by whoever57 · · Score: 1

      Are fly by wire brakes even legal? It was my understanding that there must always be a mechanical linkage between the brake pedal and the brakes, just to give you a hail mary if your brake booter craps out.

      No. For many years, Citroen sold cars with power-brakes -- not power-boosted, but power brakes. If you lost pressure in the pressure reservoir (due to a leak or pump failure), you lost all braking. The Citroen I drove had a big red warning light in the middle of the dash that would light up with the word "STOP" if you lost power in the braking/suspension system -- yes, the same pressure system was used for the suspension, so before you lost the brakes, the car would be riding on the suspension bump-stops. I believe Rolls-Royce used the same systems.

      --
      The real "Libtards" are the Libertarians!
    44. Re:Pros vs Cons by jklovanc · · Score: 1

      Way to cherry pick your data.

      National Institute of Justice wherein they interviewed suspects who had fled from the police. Their effort, the first systematic study to quantify the perceptions of suspects involved in pursuits, provided information on a variety of topics, including the demographics of those who fled from the police (their average age was 26, and 94 percent were male), as well as what happened (30 percent of the suspects crashed, 30 percent stopped, and 25 percent outran the police) and why they fled (32 percent were driving a stolen car, 27 percent had a suspended driver’s license, 27 percent wanted to avoid arrest, and 21 percent were driving under the influence).

      Notice the "27 percent wanted to avoid arrest". The total is above 100% because suspects could list more than one reason.

      Not chasing and getting away are two complete different things.

      There is a link; If no chase is initiated the driver gets away. Calling in air surveillance takes time and the fleeing vehicle need to be kept in sight until the support arrives.

    45. Re:Pros vs Cons by PhxBlue · · Score: 1

      1: As mentioned above, if it fries pacemakers, insulin pumps, or heart plugs, how will wrongful death lawsuits be handled?

      If the wrongful death lawsuits surrounding Tazers are any indication, probably not too well.

      --
      !#@%*)anks for hanging up the phone, dear.
    46. Re:Pros vs Cons by Hotawa+Hawk-eye · · Score: 1

      6. What impact would this have on Google's self-driving cars?

    47. Re:Pros vs Cons by IwantToKeepAnon · · Score: 1

      5: Of course, the bad guys will have this technology sooner or later. Now, watch stretches of I-10 become nice kill zones for thieves who are desiring either pickup trucks for Mexican drug runs, or just to pop caps in people once their car is stopped to get soldier status in their gang.

      Of course a crook using them on civilians is a possibility .... but if I was a crook in a high speed chase I'd stop the cop car before he could stop me. Hmmm, maybe foot chases will go way up? :-p

      --
      "Happy families are all alike; every unhappy family is unhappy in its own way." -- Anna Karenina by Leo Tolstoy
    48. Re:Pros vs Cons by camperdave · · Score: 1

      Are fly by wire brakes even legal? It was my understanding that there must always be a mechanical linkage between the brake pedal and the brakes, just to give you a hail mary if your brake booter craps out.

      Ditto with the steering, no? It's that way with power steering and brakes.

      --
      When our name is on the back of your car, we're behind you all the way!
    49. Re:Pros vs Cons by jandrese · · Score: 3, Informative

      IIRC with a Prius there is still a mechanical linkage, but it has a good amount of play before it engages the brakes. So if you lightly tap the pedal the computer can switch over to regen braking without using the pads, but if you stomp the pedal far enough the pads will be engaged.

      --

      I read the internet for the articles.
    50. Re:Pros vs Cons by jhumkey · · Score: 1

      Dad was a KY State Police for 25 years . . . (most) every time they used tear gas into a house . . . it caught the house on fire. He even got an award for it once. OK technically the award was for ending the hostage crisis with no loss of life, but even 20 years after retiring he felt really bad about half burning the guy's house down.
      Yeah, this'll go in with Tazers as something that never should have been invented. (Less lethal = easier to abuse.) I don't want anyone "shooting" anything at me (or me in my car), unless I've done something so bad . . . it'd be better to kill me than let me go.

      --
      No, I don't remember your name. But the memory mapped screen on a TRS80 from 1977 is from 15360 to 16383 if that helps.
    51. Re:Pros vs Cons by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Cars are not "drive by wire". Try rolling downhill with the ignition off. Steering and brakes will be very heavy, with the nice helpful electronics off. But it will work! Same if you fry the electronics, or even rip it out.

    52. Re:Pros vs Cons by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Of course, this is the UK,

      Nobody fucking cares about the UK.

    53. Re:Pros vs Cons by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If only the Police had access to roadmaps, flying machines and some form of wireless communication!

      Confound these hyper-advanced criminals and their motorized carriages!

    54. Re:Pros vs Cons by luther349 · · Score: 1

      what about a Tesla and you fry the whole battery system causing over 20,000 in damage lawsuit.

    55. Re:Pros vs Cons by luther349 · · Score: 1

      brakes have fail safe even if the power brakes fail you can still stop the car granted it does take manual foot pressure to force the fluid and performance is degraded but the car will stop. you can also pull/push the ebrake its on a cable and the car will stop. power steering the same thing when the car in motion losing it has no negative effect at a dead stop it would take some muscle to turn the tires but it can be done a trick is to creep forward/backward and turn it helps take the pressure off the steering wheel just with the laws of physics moving tires turn easier..

    56. Re:Pros vs Cons by Toshito · · Score: 1

      3: If used on a car, most cars are drive-by-wire. This means that brakes and steering will be made inoperable in some cars, causing an instant wreck... and subsequent lawsuits. Other cars will still have mechanical brakes and steering, but most people are used to power-assisted brakes and steering... and having their vehicle handle way differently can also cause a wreck... and lawsuit.

      err...no! The only thing that is drive by wire in street cars is the accelerator pedal. Brakes are always hydraulic (with dual independant circuits) and steering is mechanical (rack and pinion, or recirculating balls in some 4x4).

      So if the engine stops you only lose assistance. Since the brake assist works with vacuum, you still can brake one or two times with assist.

      --
      Try it! Library of Babel
    57. Re:Pros vs Cons by sjames · · Score: 1

      I haven't actually heard about high speed chases getting people killed all that often. I have heard of a few cop cars getting damaged due to local cops not being the drivers they think they are.

    58. Re:Pros vs Cons by Holi · · Score: 1

      I would rather them use an emp device then drop concrete blocks from a bridge. One has a small chance of causing loss of life, the other, well if it hits the windshield then it's instant death.

      The difference is one may cause property damage and the other is attempted murder.

      --
      Sorry, teleporters just kill you and then make a copy. A perfect, soul-less copy.
    59. Re:Pros vs Cons by sjames · · Score: 1

      The steering would be heavy but still working. Not so sure about the brakes. The anti-lock system backs off the braking force as needed. During a normal failure, they revert to normal brakes (fail safe) but they have not been designed to fail safe when random currents are being induced in the circuitry.

    60. Re:Pros vs Cons by sjames · · Score: 1

      A device like this is not likely to be tightly focused. The car NEXT to the bad guys carrying law abiding citizens is likely to be affected as well.

    61. Re:Pros vs Cons by Holi · · Score: 1

      read the military studies on pacemakers and EMP. They are already well protected against this.

      --
      Sorry, teleporters just kill you and then make a copy. A perfect, soul-less copy.
    62. Re:Pros vs Cons by sjames · · Score: 1

      Neither Bundy nor Williams were involved in a high speed chase.

      There are ways to capture people who don't stop that don't involve the high speed chase at all.

    63. Re:Pros vs Cons by jonbryce · · Score: 1

      On my VW Up, if I push the break pedal a little bit, it activates the regenerative breaking system. If I push it down really hard, it activates the manual hydraulic break pads.

    64. Re:Pros vs Cons by jonbryce · · Score: 1

      I have in my car. It has a stop-start engine so turns itself off completely when I stop at traffic lights etc, and also regenerative brakes. If I am going down a hill slowly in stop-start traffic, I sometimes don't bother to put the engine back on, and just let gravity take me down the hill. The brakes become much harder to operate as soon as the engine goes off, because the regenerative breaking doesn't work.

    65. Re:Pros vs Cons by Trogre · · Score: 1

      My 1984 Toyota Corona had power-assisted brakes. I didn't appreciate how much I relied on the power, until one day I was being towed by rope and nearly slammed into the towing car when it braked - the brake pedal was much, much stiffer and less effective than when the engine was going. In the end I needed both legs to brake effectively.

      --
      "Nine times out of ten, starting a fire is not the best way to solve the problem." - my wife
    66. Re:Pros vs Cons by jklovanc · · Score: 1

      There are ways to capture people who don't stop that don't involve the high speed chase at all.

      It you look at all those methods they require a chase for a certain period of time. Show me a reliable method that does not and we can talk.

    67. Re:Pros vs Cons by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "very nearly"? you mean you didn't insta-wreck and explode in a giant fireball taking out half the freeway like the anti-everything crowd on here wants us to think will happen?

    68. Re:Pros vs Cons by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      And yet, despite the significant ease of throwing heavy items onto the freeway, it still doesn't actually cause mass destruction and an end to driving as we know it. So why do you seem believe this will?

    69. Re:Pros vs Cons by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Your example of why the police should chase people is a case where the Police did exactly that, and an innocent bystander was killed as a result??

    70. Re:Pros vs Cons by Eddy_D · · Score: 1

      If used on a motorcycle, it can mean the rider can lose control, causing a crash, fatality, and lawsuits.

      What is the alternative for safely stopping a speeding motorcycle?

      5000 Gallons of Jello. Orange-flavored of course.

      --
      - I stole your sig.
    71. Re:Pros vs Cons by geekoid · · Score: 1

      The vast, vast majority have shown that, but people who use the tool properly don't get spread all over the media.

      --
      The Kruger Dunning explains most post on /. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect
    72. Re:Pros vs Cons by sjames · · Score: 1

      Read the tag, report that, location, and direction. Let patrol cars move into the area and update his position as they close in. Then don't give them anywhere they can go.

      If the car is not stolen (actually quite common), you know who they are and where they live. If all else fails, go arrest them in the A.M.

    73. Re:Pros vs Cons by gronofer · · Score: 1

      There will be a lot of blowback from this device:

      No worse than for a Taser, surely. Somehow they deal with these sorts of issues and carry on using them.

    74. Re:Pros vs Cons by jklovanc · · Score: 1

      The report states that fleeing drivers will slow down in a few blocks if not chased therefore police should not chase. The example I noted was to show that sometimes tragedy occurs in that few blocks so even the no-chase policy is not completely safe.

    75. Re:Pros vs Cons by MildlyTangy · · Score: 1

      I would rather them use an emp device then drop concrete blocks from a bridge. One has a small chance of causing loss of life, the other, well if it hits the windshield then it's instant death.

      The difference is one may cause property damage and the other is attempted murder.

      Hey, dont be so cynical.

      At least its a nice instant death out of the blue with no warning whatsoever, and not some slow agonising lingering death.

      Ill take option 1 over option 2 any day.

    76. Re:Pros vs Cons by MildlyTangy · · Score: 1

      If used on a motorcycle, it can mean the rider can lose control, causing a crash, fatality, and lawsuits.

      What is the alternative for safely stopping a speeding motorcycle?

      The alternative to safely stopping a motorcycle is unsafely stopping a motorcycle.

    77. Re:Pros vs Cons by jklovanc · · Score: 1

      Read the tag, report that, location, and direction.

      Who reads the tag? Most stop light cameras are not live feeds and not at every intersection.

      If all else fails, go arrest them in the A.M.

      Which will fail in court because the driver can not be positively identified. The prosecutor has to prove that the owner was driving and the owner can take the Fifth.

    78. Re:Pros vs Cons by cbiltcliffe · · Score: 1

      Whenever I needed to hit reserve on my bike, I didn't even need to restart, unless I was nearly stopped when it ran out. If it ran out on the highway, which is mostly what happened, I just wound out the throttle while I reached down and flipped the fuel cock to reserve, and within a couple of seconds, I was accelerating again.

      --
      "City hall" in German is "Rathaus" Kinda explains a few things......
    79. Re:Pros vs Cons by cbiltcliffe · · Score: 1

      If ignition happens at the wrong time for an extended period, then you're right. A spark advanced too far for a significant period of time can cause holed pistons, cracked heads, etc.
      However, screwing up the ignition timing for the couple of seconds it's going to take to stall the engine is going to cause pretty much bupkis in physical engine damage.

      --
      "City hall" in German is "Rathaus" Kinda explains a few things......
    80. Re:Pros vs Cons by cbiltcliffe · · Score: 1

      If used on a motorcycle, it can mean the rider can lose control, causing a crash, fatality, and lawsuits.

      What is the alternative for safely stopping a speeding motorcycle?

      A clothesline. Oh...wait. That only stops the rider, not the bike.....

      --
      "City hall" in German is "Rathaus" Kinda explains a few things......
    81. Re:Pros vs Cons by LinuxIsGarbage · · Score: 1

      I think he may have been reappropriating the term "drive by wire". It would not be in reference to the ford "drive by wire" system (electronic control system that appears the same as a traditional mechanical column). More likely meaning that power steering and power breaking require the engine chip to be functioning to operate.

      And he is correct that those subsystems cut out with the engine. My vehicle recently had a vacuum leak. The engine stalled out as I was breaking. No power steering, no power breaking. It was not a good situation. The car behind me very nearly plowed into me when the light flipped to green.

      The Ford system (Active Park Assist, Lane Keeping System) don't replace a mechanical column with something that looks like a column. These vehicles (and most new vehicles) have electronic power assist steering. Active Park Assist just commands the assist motor to turn the wheels. Mechanical linkage is still there. Turn the engine off and you can still crank the wheel over. The system normally works by monitoring how much torque is being applied to the wheel in which direction, and adding assist to bring that down.

      I'm not aware of any current mass market vehicle that uses something other than vacuum assist for the power brakes. There is electronic features like ABS, electronic brake force distribution, etc, but even with these systems, the booster normally stores enough energy for 1-2 assisted applications with the engine off.

      Even with conventional hydraulic power steering, mechanical throttle linkage, and vacuum assist brakes, when the engine stalls there's no more assist, so it's a moot point.

    82. Re:Pros vs Cons by mjwx · · Score: 2

      Option 2 stop chasing them? The FBI's research pretty much shows that they are simply dangerous http://www.fbi.gov/stats-services/publications/law-enforcement-bulletin/march-2010/evidence-based-decisions-on-police-pursuits they show that most chases are for minor offences and that the suspects will quickly return to safe driving after the chase is stopped. Pretty much car chases are cops getting an adrenaline rush at the expense of the public.

      This,

      In Australia they've moved from pursuits to a policy of interception.

      Its safer for everyone (cops, suspect, bystanders... everyone) if the cops back off, watch the suspect and corner them.

      --
      Calling someone a "hater" only means you can not rationally rebut their argument.
    83. Re:Pros vs Cons by mjwx · · Score: 1

      The issue is that many people who run from the police when chased for a minor traffic violation are not running to avoid the the ticket. They are usually running because they are wanted on another, much more serious, charge. By not chasing we would let serious criminals get away. For example ,serial murderer Ted Bundy who killed over 22 women, and the Atlanta child killer, Wayne Williams, who killed 28, were apprehended because of traffic stops.

      And no-one is suggesting they simply let them get away. What we are suggesting is that its safer to intercept than to pursue and with modern police technology, it's now more feasible. Most people who run from the police are apprehended within a few hours.

      --
      Calling someone a "hater" only means you can not rationally rebut their argument.
    84. Re:Pros vs Cons by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Cars have power steering (hydraulic) and power boosted brakes (vacuum). Then an engine is shut off the steering and brakes become heavy and very hard to operate. The car tends to want to go in a straight line and not stop.

    85. Re:Pros vs Cons by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      And who creates those dangerous situations? Police are at least complicit in high speed chases. Get the fuckers tags, mail him a ticket. If there is a more serious crime, get a chopper on the scene, and don't have cars on the ground creating more danger by tailing the suspect.

    86. Re:Pros vs Cons by Eskarel · · Score: 1

      If you're fleeing the police when they use it, your lawsuit will be laughed out of court.

    87. Re:Pros vs Cons by jklovanc · · Score: 1

      Most people who run from the police are apprehended within a few hours.

      Care to cite anything to support this statement?

    88. Re:Pros vs Cons by Eskarel · · Score: 1

      The kinetic energy doesn't disappear, but neither do your steering or brakes, you'll probably lose power steering which is inconvenient and may lose ABS which could also be, but compared to spike strips or running them off the road, it's pretty safe.

    89. Re:Pros vs Cons by sjames · · Score: 1

      Who reads the tag? Most stop light cameras are not live feeds and not at every intersection.

      Presumably whatever cop would otherwise engage in a high speed chase.

      Which will fail in court because the driver can not be positively identified. The prosecutor has to prove that the owner was driving and the owner can take the Fifth.

      That doesn't seem to hinder the red light cameras. Meanwhile, the sort of person who will panic and attempt to run from the cops will probably be spooked enough to trip themselves up.

    90. Re:Pros vs Cons by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Why do people always bring up this pacemakers etc is puzzling to me. Why does this world need this fucking device to begin with? Why invent a solution which is damn well going to create many more problems? Why can't we JUST STOP FUCKING STOP car chases and come up with other means of catching them later and letting them get away for now?

    91. Re:Pros vs Cons by jklovanc · · Score: 1

      What cameras would the officer be looking at? As I said, most red light cameras are not live feed and most intersections don't have cameras at all. Where would these pictures come from? All a driver would need to do is dodge into a side street and he would be free and clear.

      That doesn't seem to hinder the red light cameras.

      All red light cameras can is levee a fine that is charged against the vehicle registration. It does not get DUIs or driving while suspended. Which would you choose; a $100 fine for running a red or thousands and a suspended license for a DUI? It can not even be charged against the owner's license because the owner may not be the driver Those two categories make up to 48% of the fleeing drivers. So instead of getting a drunk driver off the road for a while the city makes a little money through fines.

    92. Re:Pros vs Cons by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The technology is there: Slashdot had an article on a glue-coated homing beacon that can be tossed on a car. Then there are other tracking technologies. Cellphones broadcast GPS and e911 data constantly to the towers. Tablets as well. GM cars are always tracked via OnStar.

    93. Re:Pros vs Cons by zugmeister · · Score: 1

      When you use your brakes without the "assist" part of "power assist", you are now fighting against your brake booster, as well as the resistance of the brake system itself. Believe me, a car produced without the power option is not that difficult to bring to a halt.

      Are you sure it was a Toyota Corona?

    94. Re:Pros vs Cons by sjames · · Score: 1

      WOW!

      No camera, the cop would look at the damned tag on the car right there in front of him! If he can't see it, he couldn't safely engage in a high speed pursuit anyway.

    95. Re:Pros vs Cons by Neil+Boekend · · Score: 1

      None, they won't need to chase a Google self driving car. They just call Google and the car stops at the nearest police station with the doors locked and the entry key reset to the police key.

      --
      Well, I might have a way, but it only works on a semi spherical planet in a vacuum.
    96. Re:Pros vs Cons by Demonantis · · Score: 1

      I thought all parking brakes are mechanical, but VW at least has electric ones now.

    97. Re:Pros vs Cons by Hypotensive · · Score: 1

      If you're banked over on a bike and your engine stalls, you're likely to lose control of it. If you're upright it will be perfectly safe unless there are other vehicles in your immediate proximity that didn't anticipate a sudden change of velocity on your part.

    98. Re:Pros vs Cons by jklovanc · · Score: 1

      So the initial cops sees the tag. The car bolts and get out of sight. In the next 30 seconds that car could make any number of turns and be completely lost in traffic. Now you have cops looking for a car and license plate with little likelihood of actually finding it.

    99. Re:Pros vs Cons by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      How do you prove who was driving?

      In my country, Finland, there was an infamous case many years ago when two drunk men were chased by the police and when they finally stopped, they quickly climbed into the backseat before the cops could get close enough to see who had been driving. When interrogated, they simply "couldn't remember" which one of them had been driving and thus neither one was convicted. Nowadays with more cameras around, it might be easier to avoid that kind of situation but I still do think that it's important to catch the driver fast - simply to find out if he/she was under the influence then.

    100. Re:Pros vs Cons by abigsmurf · · Score: 1

      But if you show criminals that they can escape punishment easily by initiating a high speed chase, you'll simply encourage more people to speed away in a dangerous manner. In addition, if people think they're more likely to get away scott-free, they're more likely to commit criminal acts in the first place.

      There is always a balance to be had, you can't simply say that criminals should be universally allowed to get away because you'll almost certainly cause more harm to society and danger to the public through the knock on effects of that.

    101. Re:Pros vs Cons by abigsmurf · · Score: 1

      Alternatively, the criminals could just steal your car and torch it once they're done.

    102. Re:Pros vs Cons by RivenAleem · · Score: 1

      5b. The bad guys will still be able to find a way around this, either using older vehicles, or by hardening the important functions of the car against electrical interference.

    103. Re:Pros vs Cons by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Parking brakes are a different story since you don't normally use them when driving. I have test driven a Nissan Leaf and it had a nice electrical parking brake. My completely unqualified guess is that electrical parking brakes are introduced because (1) drivers like me might pull the parking brake too hard and wear it out quickly (my driving school instructor told me "you're not at the gym now!") and (2) just having a button means the manufacturer can fit in something else between the seats and (3) women like it since it's more comfortable to perform fellatio in the car then.

    104. Re:Pros vs Cons by sjames · · Score: 1

      If there's that much traffic, it's not going to be a high speed chase. It would also be a terrible time to use a disabler.

    105. Re:Pros vs Cons by Trogre · · Score: 1

      Yep, ST150.

      Your right about the booster, etc. My prior car, that had no power assisted anything, was much easier to brake in the same situation.

      --
      "Nine times out of ten, starting a fire is not the best way to solve the problem." - my wife
    106. Re:Pros vs Cons by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Why would a motorcyclist lose control just because their engine stopped? Have you never ridden a pedal bicycle? Why aren't people crashing on those every time they get going?
      Why would the steering on a car be made 'inoperable', and how could you cause an 'instant wreck' if you CAN'T steer anyway?

    107. Re:Pros vs Cons by Phydaux · · Score: 1

      British police will call off a pursuit if is it deemed to be too dangerous. And I don't think that it has increased the number of people attempting to escape. However, I don't know either way.
      Personally I value my life, and the life of my family and friends, over ensuring that every person who runs from police is caught.

    108. Re:Pros vs Cons by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I'd be more concerned about what happens to the safety mechanisms aboard the car.

      Airbags rely on wiring and electronic switches, likewise seat belt tensioners, some of which use explosives.

      Causing the airbags to go off, or not go off, when they should or shouldn't can kill people. Now the pigs just killed someone for what they were thinking was a "less than lethal" tool, and it was USED in a less than lethal situation..

      I can see emplacements of these things at static security points (military bases and such) but letting the average cop carry them around is going to cause death and destruction guaranteed.

    109. Re:Pros vs Cons by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      LOL. "a cheap device that can do this".

      Please show us one. Those damn 14 year old kids!

    110. Re:Pros vs Cons by Altus · · Score: 1

      My bike has enough power that I usually don't notice the drop in performance until the engine has cut out entirely. I guess there are worse problems to have :-)

      --

      "In America, first you get the sugar, then you get the power, then you get the women..." -H. Simpson

    111. Re:Pros vs Cons by jklovanc · · Score: 1

      If there's that much traffic, it's not going to be a high speed chase.

      You really need to watch a few more chases on TV.

      Say a vehicle is driving at 60MPH. In three minutes that vehicle will have driven 3 miles. Which means that the vehicle could be anywhere in a 27 square mile area with a perimeter of 18 miles. Most police departments do not have the manpower to effectively search that large of an area. At 5 minutes the area becomes 75 square miles. If the vehicle is doing 100mph those numbers increase to 75 square miles in 3 minutes and over 200 square miles in 5 minutes. Do you now see why it is critical to keep visual contact with a vehicle to be able to catch it?

    112. Re:Pros vs Cons by jklovanc · · Score: 1

      So do the police in North America. This article is about banning all high speed chases not just chases that are deemed unsafe. In effect it takes judgement call away from the police officers on scene and tries to set a hard and fast rule. Those kinds of rules rarely work well.

      Personally I value my life, and the life of my family and friends, over ensuring that every person who runs from police is caught.

      You might say something different if that chronic drunk driver who avoided police custody last night by driving fast kills your family or friends some time in the future. We are not talking about every person being caught. The article is talking about almost no people being caught. There is a happy medium somewhere between the two which is why police officers now have the judgement whether or not to persue a freeing vehicle.

    113. Re:Pros vs Cons by sjames · · Score: 1

      Sounds like a job for a helicopter. Of course, if they're not being opursued with lights and sirens, they probably aren't doing 100MPH or even 60MPH.

    114. Re:Pros vs Cons by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You have no idea what you are talking about. The vast majority of vehicles on the road today are not drive by wire. Steer by wire is still very rare, and nearly all (if not all) have a mechanical backup. No production car has purely electronic brakes. The hydraulic brakes that cars DO have store enough pressure to apply the brakes a few times even if the engine dies. Even if the power boost fails completely the driver still has some braking authority left, not to mention an emergency brake. At speed most drivers would barely notice that the power steering has failed. It only becomes really hard to steer at very low speed, at which point it doesn't really matter.

    115. Re:Pros vs Cons by jklovanc · · Score: 1

      Helicopters are not everywhere. Many jurisdictions don't even have them. So at 30 miles an hour in the ten minutes it takes the helicopter to get there, if one is available, would still be a 27 square mile area. See what I mean by needing to keep the fleeing vehicle in sight until air support arrives?

    116. Re:Pros vs Cons by sjames · · Score: 1

      Helos go a LOT faster than 30MPH. Also your area calculations assume a paved plane with no obstacles of any kind. In real life, the runner is much more constrained.

    117. Re:Pros vs Cons by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Has a mechanical backup. From the manufacturers website http://www.infinitiq50.net/steering-a-safer-path.html "Like a jetliner, Direct Adaptive Steering benefits from several back-up systems – including a conventional mechanical steering linkage."

    118. Re:Pros vs Cons by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "How can we be sure that they decide not to hit hard left/right because some glitch caused a controller to send those instructions down the CANBus to tell it to do that"

      Do you really think that there aren't safeguards that prevent the engagement of these systems at speed? They are designed to work with the foot OFF the gas pedal, so it would be a good bet that any throttle input from the driver would disable the system.

      "However it might be something they should consider so if the vehicle fails, it fails in a state that at least renders it operable until it stops."

      You think it doesn't already work this way? I think you overestimate your own intelligence and underestimate that of the engineers who build these cars.

    119. Re:Pros vs Cons by jklovanc · · Score: 1

      Helos go a LOT faster than 30MPH.

      I am talking about the fleeing vehicle going 30mph after the officer breaks off the initial chase. I then used that speed to calculate the possible area that the vehicle could be in.

      The helicopter could be miles away and will take time to get into the area. That is the ten minutes I am talking about. Yes the fleeing driver is more constrained but the helicopter is also unable to read license plates and it is difficult to identify specific cars from a couple thousand feet. Even if the vehicle could only travel a mile before the helicopter shows up that is still three square miles that the vehicle could be in. While an observer may be able to see that far the view of vehicles can be obstructed by buildings, trees, other vehicles, etc. One helicopter is not going to find the vehicle in even that small an area. Then there are the times where helicopters are not available.

    120. Re:Pros vs Cons by sjames · · Score: 1

      If the car is going 30, it's not a high speed chase. If it's going faster, it can be spotted as it will be the car weaving in and out of traffic.

      If the car is not stolen, park in the owner's driveway. He'll be going home at some point.

    121. Re:Pros vs Cons by jxander · · Score: 1

      If someone is willing to go to those lengths, that's the kind of person who'd run over a pedestrian in a heartbeat. Exactly the kind of person you DON'T want to be chasing at high speeds.

      --
      This signature is false.
    122. Re:Pros vs Cons by Agent0013 · · Score: 1

      "2: If used on a motorcycle, it can mean the rider can lose control, causing a crash, fatality, and lawsuits."

      MC mechanic of many years here. Not especially likely. MCs aren't drive-by-wire other than EFI and engine shutdown takes out no control systems. Manual steering and brake make for simple stopping when your engine quits.

      The steering and brakes may be manual and work fine if the engine cuts out, but the engine braking that starts up suddenly while doing 65 down the freeway might cause your rear wheel to slip out or something. All I can say is I would not want to be on a bike going at speed when you suddenly let out the clutch on a dead engine!

      --

      -- ssoorrrryy,, dduupplleexx sswwiittcchh oonn.. -Quote found on actual fortune cookie.
    123. Re:Pros vs Cons by jklovanc · · Score: 1

      you are no longer thinking about this completely. The scenario is as follows;
      1. The police start to chase a suspect
      2. the suspect accelerates to high speed
      3. The police call off the chase due to it being a high speed chase and lose contact with the suspect (the helicopter has not arrived on scene yet).
      4. As the article states, the suspect quickly reduces speed to a normal driving speed as the police officer is no longer in sight.

      How do the police catch this suspect?

    124. Re:Pros vs Cons by sjames · · Score: 1

      Go to the owner's residence in the A.M. Impound the car as evidence. Sweat the owner a bit. If it wasn't him driving (or even if it was), he'll likely point to someone else. Interrogate them as well.

      If it's stolen, put out a BOLO. Actually look for the car. You know, legwork.

    125. Re:Pros vs Cons by jklovanc · · Score: 1

      Go to the owner's residence in the A.M.

      First there is the issue of vehicles registered to owners who do not live nearby. I am sure a cop from San Francisco is going to drive to Reno to sit in a suspect's driveway. Next, all the driver has to do is ask for a lawyer and all the "sweating" is over. You really need to learn about the legal rights of suspects.

      If it's stolen, put out a BOLO.

      Considering that 32% of vehicles that are involved in a high speed chase are already stolen that may not be an effective idea. You may find the vehicle and maybe even a driver but proving that the driver was operating the vehicle when it was fleeing the police is almost impossible. "Honest officer, I just found it a few minutes ago with the keys in it"

      You continue to reach for straws without thinking things through. Before posting again please think about how a driver could get around your ideas.

    126. Re:Pros vs Cons by sjames · · Score: 1

      Meanwhile, you seem to have a serious desire to live in the Dukes of Hazard. The mere fact that something may not work 100% of the time is hardly a reason to stick with something that definitely doesn't work 100% of the time and sometimes results in the death of bystanders.

      My suggestions have the advantage that they will not get anyone killed.

    127. Re:Pros vs Cons by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      2012 Buick LaCrosse hybrid is drive by wire.

    128. Re:Pros vs Cons by TangoMargarine · · Score: 1

      Love how I've gotten 2 Offtopic and 1 Overrated mods on this comment: 'Overrated' means 'I disagree with your viewpoint' in practice...and how is this not eminently on-topic? We're talking about how the police are going to use a device specifically being designed for them for this exact use case.

      --
      Unity? Screw that: XFCE. Slashdot Beta? Screw that: SoylentNews. Australis? Screw that: Pale Moon. UX developers DIAF
    129. Re:Pros vs Cons by jklovanc · · Score: 1

      There is a huge difference between something working about 70% of the time as the current system does and something that works about 5% of the time as your suggestions probably would.

      My suggestions have the advantage that they will not get anyone killed.

      True until the next time that driver gets drunk and kills someone.

    130. Re:Pros vs Cons by luther349 · · Score: 1

      what if they miss and hot another car lol.

    131. Re:Pros vs Cons by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      None exist yet, Benz (SL Maybach and some E-class from around 2001) and Toyota (Estima) have systems that are >80% wire control but have a safety fallback to mechanical. Both are working on 100% brake by wire. The system Benz uses has the mechanical system decoupled during normal operation, I assume a spring return to switch back in case of electrical failure. Lord knows what would happen if you fried random parts of the computer though.

  7. Oh great, what could possibly go wrong? by WilliamGeorge · · Score: 4, Interesting

    So there are some potentially cool applications of this - stopping a criminal in a car chase with police, for example - but it has massive potential for crime as well. Stopping cars at night, in secluded areas, to steal them and/or assault the passengers? Or causing mayhem by stopping cars on freeways, not all of which will slow at the same speed, leading to massive pile-ups.

    --
    William George
    1. Re:Oh great, what could possibly go wrong? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      So there are some potentially cool applications of this - stopping a criminal in a car chase with police, for example - but it has massive potential for crime as well. Stopping cars at night, in secluded areas, to steal them and/or assault the passengers? Or causing mayhem by stopping cars on freeways, not all of which will slow at the same speed, leading to massive pile-ups.

      Your (hydraulic-assisted) brakes will still work fine.

    2. Re:Oh great, what could possibly go wrong? by DocSavage64109 · · Score: 1

      Hmm. You make this item actually sound fun.

    3. Re:Oh great, what could possibly go wrong? by CanHasDIY · · Score: 2

      So there are some potentially cool applications of this - stopping a criminal in a car chase with police, for example - but it has massive potential for crime as well. Stopping cars at night, in secluded areas, to steal them and/or assault the passengers? Or causing mayhem by stopping cars on freeways, not all of which will slow at the same speed, leading to massive pile-ups.

      Your (hydraulic-assisted) brakes will still work fine.

      No, your (pneumatically-assisted) hydraulic brakes will suddenly not act the way you expect them to, because the engine is no longer providing vacuum to the pump.

      Try this: go down a deserted road at 30 MPH, then brake hard to a stop. Next, drive down the same deserted road at the same speed, but this time shut the engine off before trying to stop. There will be a marked difference in the pedal.

      --
      An enigma, wrapped in a riddle, shrouded in bacon and cheese
    4. Re:Oh great, what could possibly go wrong? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Having driven a car when a belt snapped and all power assist failed, it's hard but not impossible. Of course I learnt to drive in a car without PAS, ABS, etc. etc. so perhaps more used to it.

    5. Re:Oh great, what could possibly go wrong? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      So there are some potentially cool applications of this - stopping a criminal in a car chase with police, for example - but it has massive potential for crime as well. Stopping cars at night, in secluded areas, to steal them and/or assault the passengers? Or causing mayhem by stopping cars on freeways, not all of which will slow at the same speed, leading to massive pile-ups.

      Your (hydraulic-assisted) brakes will still work fine.

      No, your (pneumatically-assisted) hydraulic brakes will suddenly not act the way you expect them to, because the engine is no longer providing vacuum to the pump.

      Try this: go down a deserted road at 30 MPH, then brake hard to a stop. Next, drive down the same deserted road at the same speed, but this time shut the engine off before trying to stop. There will be a marked difference in the pedal.

      That depends on what position the throttle body goes to. If you turn your car off, have your foot off the throttle (assuming its not a DBW throttle anyway) and the engine is still tied to the drive wheels (its "in gear" and spinning until you stop) then yes you will have some vacuum to brake with. If the engine is going bonkers and the throttle is in some unknown state, then yes you wont have much vacuum and better pump the hell out of it.

    6. Re:Oh great, what could possibly go wrong? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      And "used to it" is precisely the point: people used to their power brakes actually providing power will suddenly find themselves in an unexpected and potentially dangerous situation, without the tools to which they have become accustomed.

    7. Re:Oh great, what could possibly go wrong? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You are thinking on the small scale. How about stopping the cavalry from arriving (air support and cars) ;-) during a robbery...

    8. Re:Oh great, what could possibly go wrong? by chuckugly · · Score: 1

      No difference at all when I tried it - maybe your car has an automatic transmission and the engine drops to zero RPM before the car is stopped?

    9. Re:Oh great, what could possibly go wrong? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Having driven a car with power-assisted steering and brakes where the engine stalled at 45MPH, it's not an experience I care to repeat. Wrestling the steering wheel around to pull off to the side of the road was a full-body workout, and I had to brace myself against the seatback to get any sort of braking action.

      Cars without power assist are designed differently from cars with assist, giving you mechanical advantage instead. A non-assist steering wheel might have a 50% greater diameter and take six turns rather than three to go full-range, while a non-assist brake pedal will have much greater travel.

    10. Re:Oh great, what could possibly go wrong? by viperidaenz · · Score: 1

      There will be a marked difference in the pedal the second or third time you apply the brakes. There is a vacuum reservoir.

    11. Re:Oh great, what could possibly go wrong? by drinkypoo · · Score: 2

      Your (hydraulic-assisted) brakes will still work fine.

      No, your (pneumatically-assisted) hydraulic brakes will suddenly not act the way you expect them to, because the engine is no longer providing vacuum to the pump.

      You're both making bad assumptions. Brakes can be either of those things. Hydraulically-assisted brakes are commonly called "hydroboost" in the USA. They show up in places where either very high braking force is needed, as on F-Super Duty vehicles (starting at least as early as the '90s F250 Super Duty) or in places where there is no room for a traditional vacuum booster, as in the 2000+ Astro. But most of them are, as you say, vacuum driven. And the vacuum storage tank will give you one or two more activations after the engine stops in most cases, or in the case of hydroboost, the accumulator built into the system.

      In either case, this is where I get to look smug, because my vehicles are simply not controlled in this fashion. I have mechanically-regulated diesels, a 1992 F250 (not Super Duty) and a 1982 MBZ 300SD. The latter actually uses vacuum to control engine fuel cut, but the former does it with a simple relay and without any electronics — just electrics. The truck does have a Kelsey-Hayes RWAL system (Rear Wheel Antilock Brakes) but that system cannot apply the brakes, it can only fail to apply them. Unfortunately, it's got a transmission with a computer. You would need the five speed manual to be completely impervious. In theory the transmission will work in 1st/3rd limp mode the control module fails, but if it does something very wrong it might be possible to destroy the transmission as well.

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
    12. Re:Oh great, what could possibly go wrong? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      LOL, I drive a Saturn. I know all about the power features just disappearing all of a sudden*. It's not even remotely unsafe. The worst thing that happens is you have to miss a turn and come back at it slower next time.

      *I've had all of these disable independently or at once.
      headlights/brake lights (flashers still worked)
      power steering (steering still works, just difficult at low speeds and not right at high speeds)
      transmission(would only do reverse and first gear just because of power issue)
      radio
      ignition

      There is nothing wrong with my car as far as GM can tell. A week later the problems "fixed" themselves a.k.a. IDK WTF I did but it works now. This issue has not occurred again in the past 4 years. Weird. Maybe the local police were just fuckin with me?

    13. Re:Oh great, what could possibly go wrong? by cbiltcliffe · · Score: 1

      How do people have so little clue as to how their car works?

      Power brakes, on a gasoline powered car, are run by intake manifold vacuum. It does not take a belt to run them. The entire accessory drive system could explode, and as long as the engine was still running, the power brakes would be completely unaffected.
      Having said that, there is a significant vacuum reservoir, with a check valve preventing leakage, even when the engine is shut off.
      Try this:
      Park your car on a hill. Apply the parking brake, and shut off the engine.
      Leave it overnight. The next morning, don't start the car. Turn the key enough to unlock the steering column, but no further. Don't touch the brake pedal yet. Make sure it's in neutral, and release the parking brake. Once the car has started rolling, press the brakes, and see how easy it is to stop the car. Then, release the brake pedal, roll downhill, and press the brake to stop again. Still feels normal, doesn't it? And this is after the car has sat for several hours, rather than only seconds after the engine has stalled.

      Now the third time, all bets are off. The vacuum reservoir on most cars has enough capacity for two full brake presses; some even more. Barring a vacuum leak, though, there will *always* be enough power assist to bring the car to a stop with power-assisted brakes.

      This doesn't apply to diesels, which have no intake manifold vacuum, so usually run the power brakes with a belt-driven pump.

      --
      "City hall" in German is "Rathaus" Kinda explains a few things......
    14. Re:Oh great, what could possibly go wrong? by cbiltcliffe · · Score: 1

      No difference at all when I tried it - maybe your car has an automatic transmission and the engine drops to zero RPM before the car is stopped?

      Maybe his car is a piece of shit and the vacuum check valve in the power brake system is leaking like a screen door in a battleship.....

      --
      "City hall" in German is "Rathaus" Kinda explains a few things......
    15. Re:Oh great, what could possibly go wrong? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It wouldn't be even remotely hard to harden a car against EMP devices/weapons. The aviation field has been doing it for years to protect the electronics on aircraft,which is why I chuckle at all the hype about using cell phones/devices in airplanes. Cell phones aren't allowed on planes because it causes disruptions to the ground cell service. When you are on the ground you can connect to 1-3 towers in town. When you are in the air you can connect to all the towers in town, plus the ones in the county, plus all the ones in the next town over, so your one phone starts soaking up the coverage for a dozen phones. Multiply that by several hundred people on a plane and that by dozens of planes and you start having a serious problem keeping your cell service from crashing. Old school bag phones were something like 7watts which made this even worse, phones these days are typically under 1 watt. Combine the lower range and with more effective equipment on the ground, and it is not so much of an issue anymore.

      Back to the car: Some basic shielding would up the difficulty of such attacks working by an order of magnitude or three, and would even take some of the noise out of your audio system.

    16. Re:Oh great, what could possibly go wrong? by jsepeta · · Score: 1

      you think too small. modify the frequency to shut down humans.

      --
      Remember kids, if you're not paying for the service, YOU ARE THE PRODUCT THAT IS BEING SOLD.
    17. Re:Oh great, what could possibly go wrong? by CanHasDIY · · Score: 1

      No difference at all when I tried it - maybe your car has an automatic transmission and the engine drops to zero RPM before the car is stopped?

      Maybe his car is a piece of shit and the vacuum check valve in the power brake system is leaking like a screen door in a battleship.....

      Actually, the last one I had do that to me was indeed a POS.

      It also had a penchant for losing fuel pressure on hard corners, enough to kill the engine.

      --
      An enigma, wrapped in a riddle, shrouded in bacon and cheese
  8. Pacemaker safe, really? by SuricouRaven · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Pacemakers and implanted defibrilators monitor the function of the heart by detecting voltage gradients of milivolts. This weapon can reliably knock out electronics in a car - electronics designed to operate in a very harsh EMI environment due to the presence of the nearby igntion system and contained within the metal body of the car. An enclosure that provides a bit more protection than 5mm of glass and 70cm of flesh.

    So when they say this device poses no risk to those with a pacemaker, consider me a bit skeptical of that claim.

    1. Re:Pacemaker safe, really? by dbc · · Score: 3, Informative

      Exactly. The FCC has rf safety guidelines that all rf emitters need to meet. Even us ham radio operators are supposed to do an assessment of their own stations. I'd like to see what kind of field strengths they are talking about and at what frequencies and distances.

      Also.... having some familiarity with CAN bus and auto electronics, I'm wondering exactly how they can say that their pulse generator only applies the brakes and makes the radio wacky. Why wouldn't some random disruption cause, say, the fuel injection system to go to full throttle? Or maybe the brakes on only one side of the car go full on? Or the automatic transmission to start shifting randomly?

      The validation test matrix for this kind of device is impractically huge, and the safety implications of a missed case are severe.

    2. Re:Pacemaker safe, really? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      70cm of flesh (27.5591 inches)? How big would you have to be for a pace maker to be buried 70cm in flesh?

    3. Re:Pacemaker safe, really? by alta · · Score: 1

      Bah, people with pacemakers don't steal cars! That's a young man's sport!

      And yes, now I want to see this at 90MPH.

      --
      Do not meddle in the affairs of sysadmins, for they are subtle, and quick to anger.
    4. Re:Pacemaker safe, really? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I'd bet on the pacemaker being fine. I was recently listening to a conversation regarding the safety of a pacemaker next to a TIG welder. The vendor was contacted and said "weld all you want right next to it, it's designed to handle it".

    5. Re:Pacemaker safe, really? by jimshatt · · Score: 1

      Huge tits.

    6. Re:Pacemaker safe, really? by jandrese · · Score: 1

      I'd say the guy with the 140cm thick torso probably needs a pacemaker.

      --

      I read the internet for the articles.
    7. Re:Pacemaker safe, really? by Sarten-X · · Score: 1

      Welders can handle a lot more than just a tiny little pacemaker.

      That's what you meant, right?

      --
      You do not have a moral or legal right to do absolutely anything you want.
    8. Re:Pacemaker safe, really? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      How big would you have to be for a pace maker to be buried 70cm in flesh?

      Size: American

    9. Re:Pacemaker safe, really? by dAzED1 · · Score: 1

      my mother had a pacemaker at age 18.

    10. Re:Pacemaker safe, really? by ArbitraryName · · Score: 2
    11. Re:Pacemaker safe, really? by bobbied · · Score: 1

      So was she stealing cars after that?

      --
      "File to fit, pound to insert, paint to match" - Aircraft Maintenance 101
    12. Re:Pacemaker safe, really? by SuricouRaven · · Score: 1

      Typo. It's clear I meant '70mm' or '7cm' and got mixed up. That's just my rough estimate though.

      Even if the pacemaker itsself is small enough not to pick up much signal, the surrounding flesh isn't - the slight voltages induced could still be enough to screw up the sensing and cause it to start pulsing out of sync, inducing fibrilation. Or worse, set a defib off.

    13. Re:Pacemaker safe, really? by SuricouRaven · · Score: 1

      A car would operate next to a TIG too. The worst they will put out is a very strong DC magnetic field - no nasty RF that can travel long distances, no current-inducing AC, and no high frequencies. Little bit of RF from the arc, but nowhere close to what this thing must generate.

    14. Re:Pacemaker safe, really? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yes really. You do realise that you need a coil somewhere for an EMP (or any type of permanent or temporary electromagnetic field) to do _anything_ to a circuit, right?

      Or does your computer run faster when facing north?

    15. Re:Pacemaker safe, really? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Coming from the same people who say its safe to use depleted uranium as a bullet...I'm gonna take this with a grain of salt :)

    16. Re:Pacemaker safe, really? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Hell, I want a hand held version for no other reason than to stop the jerks with the damn stereo! When you can hear the car three blocks away or when you are setting at a light windows up and can still hear the music in the car two ahead of you clear as day, the mirror vibrating with the bass, time to employ the EMP device. Play your "music" and have fun, but damn I DON'T need to hear it too.

    17. Re:Pacemaker safe, really? by alta · · Score: 1

      I said it's a young MAN's sport. I'm going to go out on a limb and say your mother isn't a MAN.

      --
      Do not meddle in the affairs of sysadmins, for they are subtle, and quick to anger.
  9. Safe at 15 mph? by Valdrax · · Score: 2

    In demonstrations seen by the BBC a car drove towards the device at about 15mph (24km/h). As the vehicle entered the range of the RF Safe-stop, its dashboard warning lights and dials behaved erratically, the engine stopped and the car rolled gently to a halt.

    Let's try this demonstration again in a situation where you would actually need such a device, i.e. in a high-speed pursuit. A 15 mph demonstration means nothing for the safety of the product.

    --
    If it's for-profit but free, you're not the customer -- you're the product (e.g., the Slashdot Beta's "audience").
    1. Re:Safe at 15 mph? by CanHasDIY · · Score: 1

      In demonstrations seen by the BBC a car drove towards the device at about 15mph (24km/h). As the vehicle entered the range of the RF Safe-stop, its dashboard warning lights and dials behaved erratically, the engine stopped and the car rolled gently to a halt.

      Let's try this demonstration again in a situation where you would actually need such a device, i.e. in a high-speed pursuit. A 15 mph demonstration means nothing for the safety of the product.

      It has been proven that the safest way for police to end a high-speed chase is to not engage in it to begin with.

      Sometimes the risk of letting someone get away (for now) is worth the reward of not putting innocent citizens in harm's way.

      --
      An enigma, wrapped in a riddle, shrouded in bacon and cheese
    2. Re:Safe at 15 mph? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It has been proven that the safest way for police to end a high-speed chase is to not engage in it to begin with. Sometimes the risk of letting someone get away (for now) is worth the reward of not putting innocent citizens in harm's way.

      Sadly, many police choose the thrill of chasing bad guys over protecting innocent citizens. Too many are on power trips. I kept hearing how tazers shots would only replace gun shots, so they'd only save lives. That doesn't seem to be the case. Tazers are buying used to bully and torture people in ways no one could use a gun and get away with it. People are dying from tazers when no force was needed. Give police the ability to zap a car and they'll use it far more often the the need to.

    3. Re:Safe at 15 mph? by Valdrax · · Score: 1

      Agreed. This is part of why I kind of liked the article about sticky gps trackers shot by air cannon.

      --
      If it's for-profit but free, you're not the customer -- you're the product (e.g., the Slashdot Beta's "audience").
    4. Re:Safe at 15 mph? by PhrostyMcByte · · Score: 1

      The only place I could see this being used is when they don't care about the driver or damage to the immediate surrounding area. Think a military base or checkpoint which requires cars to be moving at low speeds through a track of concrete barriers.

    5. Re:Safe at 15 mph? by geekoid · · Score: 1

      which is fantastic until a guy gets away and then kills someone, then the police are screwed. Or if the chase a guy and he kills someone, then the police are screwed.

      --
      The Kruger Dunning explains most post on /. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect
    6. Re:Safe at 15 mph? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      No, the safest way to end high speed chases is to give those who fail to stop for the police an extra YEAR in prison for every second they refuse to stop. You don't think that would work?

    7. Re:Safe at 15 mph? by CanHasDIY · · Score: 1

      which is fantastic until a guy gets away and then kills someone, then the police are screwed. Or if the chase a guy and he kills someone, then the police are screwed.

      Yea, because cops are always being punished harshly, huh? Not like they can outright murder someone in cold blood and receive 2 weeks paid vacation as a "punishment."

      Oh, wait, I got that backwards; cops almost never get punished for shit they actually do, let alone any perceived ill. You're grasping at straws.

      --
      An enigma, wrapped in a riddle, shrouded in bacon and cheese
  10. sleazy by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    The firm added that it did not believe the RF Safe-Stop posed any risk to people using a pacemaker.

    They also added that old people with pacemakers are hilarious.

  11. Won't work on a diesel with mech injector pump by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    It won't work on a diesel with a mechanical injector pump. It may also clobber a cruise control system causing out of control acceleration.
    This thing is a danger and would be illegal in the USA under FCC rules.

    1. Re:Won't work on a diesel with mech injector pump by tepples · · Score: 1

      This thing is a danger and would be illegal in the USA under FCC rules.

      I think the point is that once it's proven, local law enforcement can lobby Congress to make it no longer illegal under FCC rules.

  12. couple of thoughts by roc97007 · · Score: 4, Insightful

    First thought: When shielding is criminal, only criminals will have shielding.

    Second thought: This would be a really cool way to deactivate police cars that might be chasing you.

    --
    Oliver's law of assumed responsibility: If you're seen fixing it, you will be blamed for breaking it.
    1. Re:couple of thoughts by olsmeister · · Score: 2

      I'm sure they would tell you that if you like your shielding, you can keep your shielding.

    2. Re:couple of thoughts by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I'm sure Republicans will sabotage us from having any shielding at all.

    3. Re:couple of thoughts by bobbied · · Score: 1

      Third thought: Assuming the police have the device, they are likely to deactivate themselves being closer to the transmitter...

      --
      "File to fit, pound to insert, paint to match" - Aircraft Maintenance 101
    4. Re:couple of thoughts by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Rear mounted green lasers would be a better fit :)

    5. Re:couple of thoughts by roc97007 · · Score: 2

      Third thought: Assuming the police have the device, they are likely to deactivate themselves being closer to the transmitter...

      That sounds like an episode of Reno 911.

      --
      Oliver's law of assumed responsibility: If you're seen fixing it, you will be blamed for breaking it.
    6. Re:couple of thoughts by sabt-pestnu · · Score: 1

      Just a couple of things:

      If you're HERF gun is extremely directional, you're golden.

      If not, you've got two options...
      1) you fire it, and suddenly BOTH of you are coasting to a stop (or crash)
      2) you get your buddies to fire it from the roadside, in which case the police coast to a stop right near your buddies.

      Of course, a remote control could cover for your buddies, especially if there's a camera or spotter set up.

      (Yeah, we've seen remote control munitions for HOW LONG now?)

    7. Re:couple of thoughts by roc97007 · · Score: 2

      You're right. So... let me think... Got it. You drive a 1969 GTO, with the emitter in the trunk. The police would have to find some older cars to give chase. Wow, this is starting to sound like a Mad Max movie.

      --
      Oliver's law of assumed responsibility: If you're seen fixing it, you will be blamed for breaking it.
    8. Re:couple of thoughts by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      hate to burst your bubble, but police will be exempt from this "improvement"

    9. Re:couple of thoughts by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      OH SNAP! AC told you son!

    10. Re:couple of thoughts by Crudely_Indecent · · Score: 1

      What improvement?

      It was successfully tested against a variety of modern vehicles with no modifications. Presumably, one would need to drive an older vehicle without the electronic vulnerability or harden the electronics of his vehicle to be immune to the effects.

      --


      "Lame" - Galaxar
    11. Re:couple of thoughts by geekoid · · Score: 1

      "extremely directional"
      what the fuck is extremely directional? it makes no sense. Start making sense.

      Directional TO THE EXTREME!

      How about just a parabolic chamber pointed away from the vehicle firing it?

      --
      The Kruger Dunning explains most post on /. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect
    12. Re:couple of thoughts by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Which they did, when airbags came into play. When cop cars (generally newer than perp cars) came out with airbags, a well-known trick was let the cop get very close to you, and stomp on the brakes. Cop car rear-ends you, not hard, but hard enough to trigger the cop's airbags. Pop - Cop gets a faceful of bag, you keep going (and, in theory, 'get away')

      They learned. Airbags in cop cars can now be disabled by the cop.

      AC

  13. SHIT by GameboyRMH · · Score: 1

    I thought this car EMP tech wasn't going anywhere when I started switching one of my cars to EFI late last year. Now this shit happens :-(

    How can I shield my car against this? I'm willing to add up to 20lbs to do it.

    --
    "When information is power, privacy is freedom" - Jah-Wren Ryel
    1. Re:SHIT by gstoddart · · Score: 1

      How can I shield my car against this? I'm willing to add up to 20lbs to do it.

      Same as everything else ... a large quantity of tinfoil, or a Faraday Cage around your car.

      As an added benefit, think of all the interesting people you'll meet trying to explain why your car is plastered in tinfoil.

      --
      Lost at C:>. Found at C.
    2. Re:SHIT by JeanCroix · · Score: 2

      How can I shield my car against this? I'm willing to add up to 20lbs to do it.

      Sell it and buy an antique from the pre-electronics era. Carburetor and points ignition. Although I assume most of them will be a wee bit more than a 20lb increase over a modern car...

    3. Re:SHIT by GameboyRMH · · Score: 1

      Many would be far lighter, since the 2000s cars have been getting far heavier and larger, approaching the weight of the land yachts of the 50s and 60s. '80s and '90s Japanese compacts are very light.

      --
      "When information is power, privacy is freedom" - Jah-Wren Ryel
    4. Re:SHIT by GameboyRMH · · Score: 1

      I guess shielding all the wiring harnesses and electronics individually wouldn't work since the car's body would still pick it up and everything is grounded to it?

      --
      "When information is power, privacy is freedom" - Jah-Wren Ryel
    5. Re:SHIT by the+eric+conspiracy · · Score: 2

      Maybe all you need is a ground strap and an aluminized mylar bag.

    6. Re:SHIT by gstoddart · · Score: 1

      I guess shielding all the wiring harnesses and electronics individually wouldn't work since the car's body would still pick it up and everything is grounded to it?

      LOL ... I wasn't really suggesting a plausible way of shielding your car from this.

      I have zero actual advice to give on the topic, I assumed the tinfoil reference was sufficient to convey that. ;-)

      --
      Lost at C:>. Found at C.
    7. Re:SHIT by JeanCroix · · Score: 1

      Depends entirely on what you'd be selling, of course. Especially if it's an SUV. Unfortunately, the '80s and '90s Japanese compacts would still be modern enough to have electronic ignition, and vulnerable to this.

    8. Re:SHIT by CanHasDIY · · Score: 1

      How can I shield my car against this? I'm willing to add up to 20lbs to do it.

      Sell it and buy an antique from the pre-electronics era. Carburetor and points ignition. Although I assume most of them will be a wee bit more than a 20lb increase over a modern car...

      Bad assumption to make; A V6 2012 Toyota Camry XLE has a curb weight of 3,395 lbs, whereas a 1956 Ford Fairlane Skyliner (that's the hardtop convertible one!) has a curb weight on 3,390 lbs.

      Although, in your defense, I was a bit surprised to find that out myself... and I'm one of those 'car guys.'

      --
      An enigma, wrapped in a riddle, shrouded in bacon and cheese
    9. Re:SHIT by MiniMike · · Score: 1

      How can I shield my car against this? I'm willing to add up to 20lbs to do it.

      I know it's the holiday season and people will look for any excuse to eat whatever they want, but I don't think poor dietary habits will help with shielding against an EMP.
      Unless you're already so large that you almost (but not quite) completely envelop your cars electronics.

    10. Re:SHIT by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      My small block V8 64 Chevelle (mid size) weighs 2900 pounds. That's less than a 2014 Corolla (compact).

    11. Re:SHIT by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Correction. That's about what a 2014 Corolla weighs. My bad.

    12. Re:SHIT by mrchaotica · · Score: 1

      That's nothing. Try comparing an original Mini (1,512 lbs at the heaviest) to a modern BMW-made one (2,496 lbs).

      --

      "[Regarding the 'cloud,'] ownership was what made America different than Russia." -- Woz

    13. Re:SHIT by CanHasDIY · · Score: 1

      That's nothing. Try comparing an original Mini (1,512 lbs at the heaviest) to a modern BMW-made one (2,496 lbs).

      That's probably a better comparison to make for the sake of this conversation.

      But not nearly as mind-blowing as finding out that Great-granny's lead sled is actually lighter than my wife's new diesel.

      Power-to-weight ratio is a bit fucked, however.

      --
      An enigma, wrapped in a riddle, shrouded in bacon and cheese
    14. Re:SHIT by Arker · · Score: 1

      The only reliable and straightforward defense may well be an older car.

      Alternatively, since this thing appears to target the CAN bus, you might get results from shielding it. That should be relatively straightforward and I would expect something as simple as wrapping it carefully in foil might give you significant shielding, which would reduce the effective range, and it sounds like they dont have much range to begin with. BUT, there really isnt any way to know whether/how effective your shielding is without fabricating a transmitter of your own and testing it out.

      --
      =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
      Friends don't let friends enable ecmascript.
    15. Re:SHIT by FSWKU · · Score: 1

      How can I shield my car against this? I'm willing to add up to 20lbs to do it.

      Sell it and buy an antique from the pre-electronics era. Carburetor and points ignition. Although I assume most of them will be a wee bit more than a 20lb increase over a modern car...

      Bad assumption to make; A V6 2012 Toyota Camry XLE has a curb weight of 3,395 lbs, whereas a 1956 Ford Fairlane Skyliner (that's the hardtop convertible one!) has a curb weight on 3,390 lbs.

      Although, in your defense, I was a bit surprised to find that out myself... and I'm one of those 'car guys.'

      Learned firsthand how heavy a Camry is when I rented one (L, instead of XLE though) on a visit to Texas a couple years back. Really nice car, and the steering took almost no effort. However, having to go from the off-ramp IMMEDIATELY to the street I needed to be on brought me back to reality. No amount of hydraulics and drive-by-wire wizardry could fight the physics of taking that much metal from 55 to 15 in about 400 feet. No danger of skidding, but I DEFINITELY felt the weight of the car on that one...

      --
      "So after all this, you make my case for me. To end this stalemate, you must die..."
    16. Re:SHIT by geekoid · · Score: 1

      Grounding strap.

      --
      The Kruger Dunning explains most post on /. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect
    17. Re:SHIT by geekoid · · Score: 1

      Listening to you people try to 'solve this' is like reading a forum where 68 year old women discuss the best command line option: FiIled with stuff that isn't even wrong.

      --
      The Kruger Dunning explains most post on /. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect
    18. Re:SHIT by JeanCroix · · Score: 1

      You're pre-emptively out of my yard, correct?

  14. Safe-Stop? Great name! by AtariDatacenter · · Score: 1

    Why is it that people name their product the very opposite of what it is? Is it supposed to serve as some sort of rebuttal? Safe for who? The guy going 60mph? Anyone around him when he loses power steering and brakes?

    1. Re:Safe-Stop? Great name! by GameboyRMH · · Score: 1

      You won't lose brakes, just ABS control of them so the guy is going to need a crash course in How Brakes Actually Work real quick.

      You will lose power steering though and that could be scary...and you'll lose all other electro-nannies which are ZOMG SO IMPORTANT YOU GUYS according to the Porsche Carrera thread.

      --
      "When information is power, privacy is freedom" - Jah-Wren Ryel
    2. Re:Safe-Stop? Great name! by jo_ham · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Why is it that people name their product the very opposite of what it is? Is it supposed to serve as some sort of rebuttal? Safe for who? The guy going 60mph? Anyone around him when he loses power steering and brakes?

      It's clearly designed to bring police chases to a much more rapid end, so instead of chasing a guy at breakneck speed for miles and miles, with him maybe ending up wrapped around a tree, or crashing head on into a granny coming the other way, or a failed containment attempt resulting in him spinning out and crashing horrifically, instead the police just EMP the car and end the chase quickly.

      No one said it had to be safe for the driver of the car. I assume it's called "safe stop" because the alternative is a risky high speed chase.

    3. Re:Safe-Stop? Great name! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Why is it that people name their product the very opposite of what it is? Is it supposed to serve as some sort of rebuttal? Safe for who? The guy going 60mph? Anyone around him when he loses power steering and brakes?

      Hmm nope, the engine is still being spun by the momentum of the car, so your hydraulic assist on steering AND brakes will work as expected. This thing is indeed unsafe (there is still a maniac in charge of a controllable, decelerating missile), but it is definitely LESS unsafe than the alternative, which is either a) a maniac with a fully powered, steerable missile (if you do nothing), or b) a maniac, with a fully powered, unsteerable AND unstoppable missile (which is what you get when you use stop-sticks, the current standard in "remotely" ending a pursuit).

    4. Re:Safe-Stop? Great name! by ZombieBraintrust · · Score: 1

      The PIT maneuver, or precision immobilization technique, is a pursuit tactic by which a pursuing car can force a fleeing car to abruptly turn sideways, causing the driver to lose control and stop

      They are likely marketing it as a safer replacement for the PIT maneuver. Maybe not as safe as spike strips.

    5. Re:Safe-Stop? Great name! by CanHasDIY · · Score: 1

      Why is it that people name their product the very opposite of what it is?

      Marketing.

      Really, because who would want to put money behind a product called "Murder-Stop?"

      --
      An enigma, wrapped in a riddle, shrouded in bacon and cheese
    6. Re:Safe-Stop? Great name! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You will also lose your power brakes, ABS or not. Any braking system that doesn't regularly require pumping the pedal will act considerably differently than expected, under less than ideal conditions given the intended use of this device, potentially creating a very dangerous situation.

    7. Re:Safe-Stop? Great name! by GameboyRMH · · Score: 1

      The brake vacuum reservoir will give you a few more stops with power brakes after the engine shuts off.

      --
      "When information is power, privacy is freedom" - Jah-Wren Ryel
    8. Re:Safe-Stop? Great name! by Aaden42 · · Score: 1

      the engine is still being spun by the momentum of the car, so your hydraulic assist on steering AND brakes will work as expected.

      This is false, at least on my old '84 Plymouth Voyager back in the day. It had a loose wire in the distributor cap position sensor which caused the car to stall semi-randomly. ($20 part, labor to find it: $priceless!...)

      As soon as the engine stalled, even coasting along, you lost 100% of power assist on the steering. Power assist on the brakes lived a little bit longer, but it faded with each press of the brake pedal, and you'd run out long before you were able to stop the car at even 40MPH. Had to practically stand on the brake pedal (use the seat as leverage to put most of my weight into it) to get the car to stop at that point. That and put my shoulders into the steering to try & get off the road. The problem only happened at low speed for whatever reason, so I never had to attempt stopping from highway speeds, but I can't imagine it would have been fun.

      As far as engine momentum, on an automatic transmission that's almost nil. The car itself is moving forward yes, but the torque converter won't push that momentum back into the engine to keep it spinning when the ignition cuts out. Think about trying to push-start an automatic transmission (you can't). The car's momentum will keep the car itself rolling, but anything else that's driven off the engine (various vacuum and hydraulic pumps for power assist brakes, steering, suspension, etc.) is gone within a second or two. Long before you're safely stopped at any rate. I'm not as up on torque converter operation as I might be (software geek), but I think as soon as the engine-side isn't pushing on it, you essentially drop back to neutral. There's no way for it to run "backwards" with torque pushed from the car's wheels.

      I'm going to go out on a limb and guess the "hardened criminal" type they're undoubtedly going to reassure us all this would only ever be used against probably has enough experience driving to safely control a car in this state. A younger or less experienced driver could easily panic at highway speeds, and I doubt the result would be all that Safe of a Stop.

      Given the progression of how Tasers have been used, it seems inevitable this will be used against an increasing number of drivers. These days you look at a cop wrong, and he's unsnapping his Taser from his belt. I doubt it will be terribly long before this technology is used against an increasing number of drivers.

      The result will likely be accidents or deaths, quite probably of innocent bystanders in the path of uncontrolled vehicles. All of which will be blamed on the driver, even though it's probable few of those deaths would have occurred had police not intervened. Not unlike how so many cases of Taser deaths are swept under the rug with the assurance that it's "less lethal" and therefore reasonable to use it against a wide range of innocent-until-proven-guilty people even where deadly force per-se would have been considered unacceptable.

      Personally, unless a shoot-to-kill is merited, I don't see how it's acceptable to employ techniques that can so easily end in death. It'd be nice if law enforcement had to take the Hippocratic Oath.

    9. Re:Safe-Stop? Great name! by LinuxIsGarbage · · Score: 1

      The hydraulic pump for an automatic is on the input shaft (engine side) so the engine must be turning above a certain minimum speed to provide hydraulic pressure to allow the clutches and bands to engage a gear. Hence why trying to push start an automatic doesn't work. A torque converter does transmit torque back through to the engine, that's why engine braking works in an automatic. In the case of push starting, because the engine isn't turning, there's no hydraulic pressure to engage a gear. Some of the first automatics did have a pump run off the output shaft to allow push starting.

      Your Voyager would of had a 3 speed hydraulically controlled automatic. I had a similar transmission in my '97 Neon. When I had the car, I once tested this theory. While driving down a long hill, I shut the ignition off*. The engine was still turning, I still had power brakes, power steering, and if I pushed the accelerator to the floor the transmission would downshift (though obviously the car didn't go any faster). Turn the ignition back to on (not start) and everything picked up just as it should. This wouldn't work in a modern car as they all (typically) have electronically controlled hydraulic automatics, so if you shut off the ignition, the solenoids would all drop out, bands and clutches would release, transmission would be in neutral, and the engine would stop.

      As far as why your Voyager stalled, transmission of the torque back through the torque converter isn't going to be 100% efficient (I'd imagine possibly more so since it's going "the wrong direction"), so if the engine RPM is low (say minimum speed in top gear), it might drop the input shaft speed below that required to provide sufficient hydraulic pressure. You wouldn't see the stalling at high speed because the engine would be turning faster, so it might be able to "ride through" the fault before the engine stopped because it has vehicle momentum, not just engine momentum. The torque convertor would have possibly locked up then too, providing better ride-through.

      *Someone is going to get upset that the steering wheel could lock. The ignition was moved to "OFF" not "LOCK", and it couldn't be moved to LOCK because the shifter wasn't in park.

      Another test I did in that car was stop at the top of a steep hill (facing uphill), and with the car in DRIVE, take my foot off the brake and allow it to coast backwards. At somewhere like 5-10 km/h the car started bucking a bit (like a manual about to stall), then the engine did stall, transmission effectively went to neutral and it started picking up speed quicker. Again this shows torque will be transmitted back through the transmission, to the engine.

      On another time with that car, someone driving it meant to shift to neutral while going ~40km/h, and overshot and went into reverse. The engine immediately stalled and the car kept rolling in neutral, though there was no apparent damage from this stunt. Lesson there was you can normally shift to neutral without having to press the button. Also electronically controlled transmissions will not engage reverse if you're moving so fast.

    10. Re:Safe-Stop? Great name! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      No, no, as mentioned elsewhere, its clearly designed to stop the police from chasing you, so you can quickly slow down and resume normal driving patterns. Thereby improving security for all other road users as well. The crooks just EMP the police car and tend the chase quickly.
      "Safe-Getaway". FTFW.

  15. Personal EMP cannons - it's about time by mveloso · · Score: 1

    A car EMP cannon has been one of those things that tech workers have talked about for years. You could use it to screw up data centers as well...or maybe the bank's power substation. How about a pacemaker?

    1. Re:Personal EMP cannons - it's about time by GameboyRMH · · Score: 1

      How about aircraft? But we all know nobody would ever do that, it would be as insane as blinding the pilot with a laser...

      --
      "When information is power, privacy is freedom" - Jah-Wren Ryel
    2. Re:Personal EMP cannons - it's about time by X0563511 · · Score: 2

      This thing is supposed to have a short range. Maybe on takeoff or final you'd be able to screw them.

      --
      For large sets, this will be our guide even unto death, for the LORD will work for each type of data it is applied to...
    3. Re:Personal EMP cannons - it's about time by seven+of+five · · Score: 2

      Knock out those annoying squad cars on your tail.

    4. Re:Personal EMP cannons - it's about time by afidel · · Score: 1

      Which is of course when planes are at their most vulnerable and most reliant on their instrumentation...

      --
      There are 4 boxes to use in the defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, ammo. Use in that order. Starting now.
    5. Re:Personal EMP cannons - it's about time by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Which are the most dangerous parts of flying.

    6. Re:Personal EMP cannons - it's about time by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Or sitting outside Amazon's Drone facility and picking off some high end loot that someone paid a hefty premium for 30 minute delivery? Need that SSD/cpu/ram in 30 mins? The 30 min delivery certainly is going to come at a great cost. It won't be tampons shipped out in 30 mins or less, that's for sure.

    7. Re:Personal EMP cannons - it's about time by X0563511 · · Score: 1

      Yes, allowing that the range on these things can be improved enough. I think I read 5 meters? You'd have to be sitting out on the runway to pull that one off.

      --
      For large sets, this will be our guide even unto death, for the LORD will work for each type of data it is applied to...
    8. Re:Personal EMP cannons - it's about time by geekoid · · Score: 1

      Inverse Square Law Look It Up.

      --
      The Kruger Dunning explains most post on /. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect
  16. See no evil, record no evil... by AtariEric · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Digital audio and video recording devices in the vehicle were also affected.

    So, they can shut off your camera before they beat you half to death?

    --
    Don't trust any concentration of power.
    1. Re:See no evil, record no evil... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Protect your electronic gear with a faraday cage.

    2. Re:See no evil, record no evil... by YalithKBK · · Score: 1

      Wish I had mod points. My first thought was exactly this.

    3. Re:See no evil, record no evil... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      half???

  17. What could go wrong! by 140Mandak262Jamuna · · Score: 2
    Cars have complex systems like traction control and anti lock brakes, and cruise control. What would happen if the pulse disables the brakes but turns on the cruise control or opens the electronic throttle wide open and shuts off the brakes?

    That it successfully disabled a few old dilapidated junk is no big deal. Those vehicles are just a skip, hop and a jump from junkyard and would fail more easily. A modern car well insulated against electromagnetic interference is likely to protect some systems and lose some other systems partially. This is just dangerous.

    --
    sed -e 's/Chuck Norris/Rajnikant/g' joke > fact
    1. Re:What could go wrong! by afidel · · Score: 1

      Disabling ABS doesn't disable the brakes, it just disables the pulsing and additional wet weather control that ABS brings. Trust me, I've driven a car with a faulty ABS module while the dealership waited for parts to come in and I had zero problem stopping.

      --
      There are 4 boxes to use in the defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, ammo. Use in that order. Starting now.
  18. So... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    An EM pulse powerful enough to disrupt the recording equipment also disrupted the car's internal systems? Color me shocked; shocked and awed.

  19. I'll test these with the self-driving cars by WillAffleckUW · · Score: 0

    Will be fun to see how easy it is to use a drone to shut down these "taxis for the rich".

    --
    -- Tigger warning: This post may contain tiggers! --
  20. loss of power steering/traction control at speed - by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    See recent celebrity crash for what happens when you loose steering control at speed. Given the size of US cars and the prevelance of power steering and traction control there is no way this is going to be a safe way to stop a car.

  21. A 1960s Range Rover by chuckugly · · Score: 1

    A 1960s Range Rover will stop on it's own soon enough.

    1. Re:A 1960s Range Rover by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      or any car traveling at a decent rate of speed if the driver still doesn't apply the brakes.... also what happens with standard cars get put into neutral.. this as a use for defense as stated in the article is ridiculous for an attacker would just have to be traveling at a reasonable speed, disconnect the engine from the transmission via the clutch and let the car coast into what ever is in the way.. Ek = 1/2 * m * v^2

    2. Re: A 1960s Range Rover by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Given that the range rover launched in 1970, a 1960's range rover would be a valuable prototype that probably resides in a museum or private collection.

  22. Prior art by srussia · · Score: 1
    Your sig:

    George Lucas (Verb) Lucasing, Lucased (a) The act of committing graphics overkill.

    Better update it. Lucas Electrical

    --
    Set your phasers on "funky"!
    1. Re:Prior art by roc97007 · · Score: 1

      I get a 404 on both links, but yes, point made. I need a new sig.

      --
      Oliver's law of assumed responsibility: If you're seen fixing it, you will be blamed for breaking it.
    2. Re:Prior art by roc97007 · · Score: 1

      How's this?

      --
      Oliver's law of assumed responsibility: If you're seen fixing it, you will be blamed for breaking it.
  23. What was not in the article... by krelvin · · Score: 1

    Does this destroy the electronics ie make them no longer work until replaced?
    Does this affect other things like watches, phones, pace makers and other medical equipment?

    Would be an interesting oops... wrong vehicle or a innocent vehicle is in range when this is triggered.

  24. Old Idea by ZombieBraintrust · · Score: 1

    You can find articles going back to 2004 with a similer idea. http://www.theguardian.com/science/2004/jul/12/sciencenews.crime

    1. Re:Old Idea by jgarry · · Score: 1

      How funny, yesterday I posted that link on usenet, in response to somebody posting http://on.rt.com/4h0u9g

      --
      Oracle and unix guy.
  25. Victim with no due process by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    How much does it cost a victim of this device, having been acosted with no due process under the law, to restore the functionability to his or her electronics. I would be driving as fast as I could with another vehicle to the nearest courthouse to file suit.

  26. just stop by Werrismys · · Score: 1

    No more taxes on cars and gasoline, no more restrictions, no more surveillance, no more control that isn't mine. It's my fucking car. Cars used to represent freedom, in some part.

    --
    'Once scientists, even the dim-witted social scientists, get muzzled, the Western Civilization is finished.' - oldhack
    1. Re:just stop by ScentCone · · Score: 3, Insightful

      It's my fucking car.

      It sure as hell is! So, just drive it on your own fucking road, right?

      Yeah.

      --
      Don't disappoint your bird dog. Go to the range.
    2. Re:just stop by LordLucless · · Score: 2

      Yeah! The government should have the right to do whatever the hell it wants to you on public property. Get shot by a cop walking down the sidewalk? Should have been walking on your own fucking sidewalk. You were asking for it, bitch.

      --
      Just because you're paranoid doesn't mean there isn't an invisible demon about to eat your face
    3. Re:just stop by ScentCone · · Score: 1

      Wow, you really have trouble with communication, don't you?

      --
      Don't disappoint your bird dog. Go to the range.
    4. Re:just stop by LordLucless · · Score: 1

      You have trouble with rational debate, don't you?

      --
      Just because you're paranoid doesn't mean there isn't an invisible demon about to eat your face
    5. Re:just stop by ScentCone · · Score: 1

      No, I don't. I responded pointedly to an irrational comment. I echoed that person's tone to help them see how ridiculous they were being. You compounded that person's shrill nonsense by adding more. You can't be so obtuse to have missed the point, so the only alternative is that you're just trolling. And again, just now. So, you have fun with that.

      --
      Don't disappoint your bird dog. Go to the range.
    6. Re:just stop by MildlyTangy · · Score: 1

      I totally love it how you assume you have a fundamental right to drive your car on a public road.

      Driving is a privilege, not a right.

      If it was a right, you would have no need for driver licences.

    7. Re:just stop by geekoid · · Score: 1

      Yeah that's exactly the same thing.

      You have NEVER had privacy regarding driving you car on public roads, same with your horse pre auto era.

      Don't like it? Build you own private roads, with your own private police.

      But yeah, being able to stop someone breaking the law is exactly like randomly killing people.

      --
      The Kruger Dunning explains most post on /. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect
    8. Re:just stop by LordLucless · · Score: 1

      No, but you HAVE had the expectation that someone can't point a device at your property and cause it to fry itself. Just like you had the expectation that someone wouldn't shoot your horse, pre-auto.

      Driving a car on a public road doesn't somehow mean all your rights are nullified.

      --
      Just because you're paranoid doesn't mean there isn't an invisible demon about to eat your face
    9. Re:just stop by ScentCone · · Score: 1

      No, but you HAVE had the expectation that someone can't point a device at your property and cause it to fry itself. Just like you had the expectation that someone wouldn't shoot your horse, pre-auto.

      You're confusing the words "can't" and "wouldn't."

      There was nothing stopping someone from shooting your horse, or from locking up your car's engine block by shooting it, today, right now. I'd rather replace some onboard electronics than an engine block, wouldn't you? But the distinction is academic. Because it's all about what people do, not which tool people use. EMP weapons and guns don't shoot horses and cars, people do. The expectations and limitations are cultural, not technological.

      --
      Don't disappoint your bird dog. Go to the range.
    10. Re:just stop by LordLucless · · Score: 1

      The expectations and limitations might be cultural, but technology shapes culture, just as much as the inverse.

      Take tasers; yes, I'd much rather be shot with a taser than with a gun. The issue, of course, is that tasers are used in situations where people wouldn't resort to a gun, because they're promoted as "safer".

      It's the same issue as this; I'm against allowing the state to use these devices because, while I'm not particularly afraid they will shoot my engine block out, I'm not so certain they won't use these ostensibly "safe" devices much more recklessly, due to their perceived innocuity.

      --
      Just because you're paranoid doesn't mean there isn't an invisible demon about to eat your face
  27. Been there, done that, many years ago. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    There appears to be nothing at all new about this 'news'.

  28. 20% is OK I guess by chuckugly · · Score: 1

    Well, number 2 shouldn't be an issue; if the engine losing power causes a wreck the driver was unsafe already. As for 3, no, brakes and steering are not, AFAIK, pure drive by wire although I'd be open to a citation otherwise. Given those, 4 is irrelevant; if an engine outage causes a person to wreck they shouldn't have been driving, and 5 is interesting and a little scary.

    1. Re:20% is OK I guess by dAzED1 · · Score: 1

      it's not just an engine outage - it's an engine outage coupled with distractions right before and during the outage. Your dash, lights, radio, cell phone, etc all suddenly start going nuts...and oh btw your engine died too. Or worse, your engine didn't die, but you still got all the distractions, and the guy driving a manual transmission in front of you /did/ get a dead engine, so he's slowing down rapidly. Or perhaps you were merely doing something other than cruising in a straight line - maybe you were in the middle of a sharp turn, or you were slowing down, or you needed to speed up rapidly to miss something... But as a motorcyclist, I say kudos to you that you cannot be distracted while driving, and that you can always react perfectly to every situation. I wish the prius being driven by a teenager whose mother was yelling at him had been a little less distracted when he suddenly crossed over the double yellow and into my path, from which I had no place to dodge and had to just eat his car with my face...I agree, he shouldn't have been driving. Most people probably shouldn't be. But they are, and making it worse is a horrible idea.

    2. Re:20% is OK I guess by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      On the highway, if a car's engine dies suddenly, the car slows down rapidly and unexpectedly. The car behind hits it. Oops.

      This is in no way an indication that the driver of the car whose engine died was driving in an unsafe manner.

  29. NEVER by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    It's NEVER safe to take control of a car away from a driver. I'm sure there are cases, where it can be used in place of spike strips, but let's not forget that the stearing wheel will automatically lock, if power goes out, and it happens even when the car is moving.

    Let's also not forget that some people have pace makers, including other occupants in cars, and it can cost them their lives.

    Let's also not forget that tazers were originally only going to be used in situations where a firearm would normally be used, but today, the tazer is the first response, and often unjustified, and it's only a matter of time until they use this type of device as a first response. Mark my words.

    My vehicle (currently being heavily modified) will be immune from such a device, and it will reflect the attack, back on the attacker. They play their games, we play ours.

    1. Re:NEVER by wiredlogic · · Score: 1

      let's not forget that the stearing wheel will automatically lock, if power goes out

      They don't lock. You loose power assist and revert to manual steering.

      --
      I am becoming gerund, destroyer of verbs.
    2. Re:NEVER by GTRacer · · Score: 1

      [SNIP] let's not forget that the stearing wheel will automatically lock, if power goes out [/SNIP]

      Your car may lock its steering wheel when power is cut, but no car I've driven in a quarter-century does. I've had many occasions to key the motor off at speed (isolating engine and transmission when diagnosing problems) and steering continues working, though unassisted.

      So long as the key is in the ACC or ON positions the wheel lock should not engage. Also, if you're in a manual or are quick enough with an automatic (and don't go to neutral first), putting the key back to ON will re-fire the engine.

      --
      Defending IP by destroying access to it? That makes sense, RIAA/MPAA. Go to the corner until you can play nice!
    3. Re:NEVER by chuckugly · · Score: 1

      My VW has keyless ignition and an electronically actuated steering lock (which I always view with a little suspicion anyway when I hear it release and the steering wheel rocks a bit) so I wonder what the failure mode would be for that little gem.

    4. Re:NEVER by viperidaenz · · Score: 1

      Not if the transmission is still turning the engine and you have hydraulic power steering.

      One of them fancy cars where you don't need to take the key out your pocket might have an electric steering lock though. Doubt they would be 'fail-secure' types. I would assume they require power to switch it to the locked position.

    5. Re:NEVER by jgarry · · Score: 1

      Most modern automatic transmissions don't have the necessary hardware to turn the engine. That's why you can't push start them. Computer controlled transmissions have odd fail modes too (like those Lexus that crash and burn because they can't stop).

      I had an engine stall in a '69 Cadillac while starting a turn into a driveway. Wound up in neighbor's ivy.

      --
      Oracle and unix guy.
    6. Re:NEVER by viperidaenz · · Score: 1

      They do, you just need to move the car faster. The torque converter works both ways.

  30. Well, this is WAY cool by roc97007 · · Score: 1

    I wonder what it would do to a helicopter.

    --
    Oliver's law of assumed responsibility: If you're seen fixing it, you will be blamed for breaking it.
    1. Re:Well, this is WAY cool by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Just don't ship them by air.

    2. Re:Well, this is WAY cool by roc97007 · · Score: 1

      Now, that's funny. Mod up.

      --
      Oliver's law of assumed responsibility: If you're seen fixing it, you will be blamed for breaking it.
  31. Dick by JustOK · · Score: 1

    Dick Cheney's pacemaker probably has active defenses against such devices.

    --
    rewriting history since 2109
    1. Re:Dick by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Dick Cheney's pacemaker probably has active defenses against such devices.

      Made by Halliburton and cost over $3 billion I hear.

      Hell of an investor he was...

  32. Airplanes? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    So ... how well will it work on airplanes?

    1. Re:Airplanes? by bobbied · · Score: 1

      Which one? Cessna 150 might just disrupt the radios if you get close enough but nothing else. Everything you need to keep flying will continue to work even if you are sitting in the thing with your device.

      Air Bus 380 with the fly by wire systems? I'm betting it will keep flying if you are outside it given the thing is basically a metal tube around all the cabling. Now if you want to test from the INSIDE of the 380, let me know so I can be sure to watch. I still don't expect much, but there *might* be an issue that way and I'd have the video camera rolling just on the outside chance I'd have some interesting footage to sell.

      --
      "File to fit, pound to insert, paint to match" - Aircraft Maintenance 101
    2. Re:Airplanes? by mrchaotica · · Score: 1

      Air Bus 380 with the fly by wire systems? I'm betting it will keep flying if you are outside it given the thing is basically a metal tube around all the cabling.

      Don't all those newfangled fly-by-wire jetliners have composite bodies to save on weight?

      --

      "[Regarding the 'cloud,'] ownership was what made America different than Russia." -- Woz

    3. Re:Airplanes? by viperidaenz · · Score: 1

      Only the Dreamliner.

      I'd say they're all pretty conductive though, to safeguard against lightning strikes.

    4. Re:Airplanes? by hurfy · · Score: 1

      With a 164 foot range you would almost be standing on the wing to hit much in the Airbus. Just throw stuff instead. Probably not a good idea to do it 164 feet underneath it either just in case it works ;)

      Does it even work from the side? How long does it need to be 'on' the target? The demo isn't clear but looks like directly in front. In which case it would get run over by whatever you wanted to stop. Unless of course they agree to do 15mph in front of safety barriers.

  33. Too much power for "good" by sl4shd0rk · · Score: 1

    I find it creepy that law enforcement has a means to disable just about every system society needs in order to communicate, defend itself, or gtfo.

    --
    Join the Slashcott! Feb 10 thru Feb 17!
    1. Re:Too much power for "good" by the+eric+conspiracy · · Score: 1

      It beats having them shoot at you.

    2. Re:Too much power for "good" by bobbied · · Score: 1

      Well, if getting them to not shoot at you is the goal, it's easy to accomplish. When you see the flashing lights, pull over and stop as soon as safely possible, turn it off and stay seated. You can earn extra points for turning on the lights inside the car at night and keeping your hands on the wheel where they are visible unless you tell them what you are doing. (Sir, my license is in my wallet, may I reach for it? Sir, my registration is in the glove box, may I retrieve it? etc) Being respectful can only help you reach your goal of not being shot at. Plus it might get you a warning instead of a ticket if the cop feels more comfortable with you.

      Knowing a number of cops, I can assure you that they really *don't* want to shoot anybody. It's a total pain when you discharge your weapon. Mountains of paperwork, reports, interviews and desk duty are yours even if you don't hit anything. So if you don't make yourself into a threat and don't get the cop upset, you are pretty much not going to get shot at.

      --
      "File to fit, pound to insert, paint to match" - Aircraft Maintenance 101
    3. Re:Too much power for "good" by BlueStrat · · Score: 1

      I find it creepy that law enforcement has a means to disable just about every system society needs in order to communicate, defend itself, or gtfo.

      It beats having them shoot at you.

      The problem being that much of the time disabling those systems would be a prelude to, and used such as to make it easier/safer for, them to shoot you. And your little dog, too.

      There are far too many adrenaline junkies, steroid freaks, power-tripping assholes, and corrupt/criminal cops in LE these days. Combined with the "blue wall of silence" by so-called "good" cops, there really aren't many "good" cops at all these days.

      If a cop tells me he's a "good cop" I'll tell him that unless he's had a history of turning in/arresting bad cops, he's full of shit and just as bad as the worst of them.

      Personally, I want to see cops forced to go back to having only .38-special revolvers, a baton, and pepper-spray. An unloaded shotgun locked in the trunk. No body armor or bullet-proof vests allowed, and certainly no armored vehicles, grenade launchers, or full-auto weapons. Call the NG if they need that kind of firepower. Don't want to be a cop under those conditions? Great. GTFO. We don't want you.

      Strat

      --
      Progressivism (aka US 'Liberalism'): Ideas so good they need a police/surveillance-state to enforce.
    4. Re:Too much power for "good" by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If cops *don't* really want to shoot you, then why *DO* they shoot so many people? There are plenty of ways to stop people without shooting them. Ask the Japanese Police. They don't need a stupid gun and typically don't carry one on thier person (it's in the car). They'll kill you with thier bare hands. I don't respect American pigs but I bent over to please the JP's and didn't even ask for a reach around!

  34. This disrupts the CAN bus. by tomtefar · · Score: 5, Informative

    So the RF interference takes out the CAN bus, which runs communications between the various control units in the vehicle. This is a common problem in electrical vehicles, where the high power/current lines must be routed separately from the CAN bus wires.

    There are two problems with this solution

    1. Older vehicles are unaffected
    Old cars, especially those with carburetors, are unaffected since they don't have any data buses that can pickup the interference.

    2. The CAN bus carries safety critical information.
    Corrupted data packets, such as by-wire throttle position information, can cause brake failures and/or uncontrolled acceleration when the ECU/TCU bombs out due to noise on the bus. Airbags may also deploy, although that is a bit more far-fetched.

       

    1. Re:This disrupts the CAN bus. by Mirar · · Score: 2

      (Where are my mod powers where I need them? This needs to be modded up.)

      The CAN bus was my conclusion too. Most ECUs will do (very) safe stops if the readings from the CAN doesn't work out properly, but the timeout might be long (seconds). (The instruments would probably go dead quicker.)

      You don't need to worry about corrupted packets; you'll just get packet loss if you don't manage to match the CRC (and when the sender gives up on not getting an ACK?).

      Hopefully the break pedal still is connected to the cylinder. I don't know of any region that allows break- or steering-by-wire. And even if so, I doubt the CAN-bus would be used for that.

    2. Re:This disrupts the CAN bus. by sandbagger · · Score: 1

      What if the corrupted data makes the vehicle think it's in a yaw, and whether it is or not, misapplies the brakes when the fleeing bad guy is actually steering in a straight line?

      --
      ---- The above post was generated by the Turing Institute. Maybe.
    3. Re:This disrupts the CAN bus. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Airbags are not connected to CAN bus. They require a direct contact closure to fire. That said, the primer cap on the bag might be set off.

    4. Re:This disrupts the CAN bus. by WoOS · · Score: 1

      I think the switch off experienced *are* the safety systems cutting in. The EMI will cause deviations in the electronics (be they a blocked CAN, corrupted sensor input or miscalculations in the MCUs) which the safety mechanisms will react to by switching apparently malfunctioning systems off. This would explain the dashboard warning lights.

      Obviously relying on the safety systems to switch the car off is a dangerous approach. Those systems are designed to detect e.g. 99% of all errors in time. With a low electronic failure to start with, this leads to a reliable car as the very majority of the few errors happening is caught by the safety system and the remaing (we talk about e.g. 10^-8 per hour here) failures of one system might still be handable by the driver supported by the other electronic systems in the car.

      This device - if used widely - inreases the basic error rate significantly and supresses all electronics. There might be a reason they tried it only with a car driving 24 km/h.

    5. Re:This disrupts the CAN bus. by Catbeller · · Score: 1

      Seriously - this is why I drive older vehicles. Pre-1996 black box. As old as I can get - and there still are too many microprocessors in the damned thing. Computers shouldn't run cars. iPods, yes, two ton missiles on city streets, NO.

      This was a cute trick, but HERF guns and EMP bombs are much more deadly.

      Dunno if a standard car can be Faraday caged. Certainly aren't designed for EM defense.

      Electric cars, weirdly enough, if you designed them correctly, could Faraday cage the controllers more easily than a gas car. Gas cars have too many widgets with vulnerable processors on, throughout the body, as it compensates for bad original concept. Electric power paths are designed to take an induced current - mechanical circuit breakers could save the power train. The "brains" could be faradayed with less difficulty, because they could be centralized.

      Ultimately, optical data paths would be a lot better. I imagine after a highway of self-driving cars get EMPed into an overpass, we'll notice how vulnerable we've become and start over again.

    6. Re:This disrupts the CAN bus. by viperidaenz · · Score: 1

      It's probably an automatic car they're testing with.
      Driving one at high speed and cutting power to the transmission is liable to damage it.

      It wouldn't be so impressive if they tried a manual car though. Once the ECU recovers after the EMP-as it would unless permanently damaged-you'd effectively push-start the car again and off it would go, as if nothing happened. Unless the EMP duration is longer than the time it takes for the car to come to a complete stop.

    7. Re:This disrupts the CAN bus. by geekoid · · Score: 1

      SO all the cars in front of you will be stoped, where are you going in your PoC-mobile?

      "can cause brake failures and/or uncontrolled acceleration when the ECU/TCU bombs out due to noise on the bus. "
      nope. Try again.

      --
      The Kruger Dunning explains most post on /. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect
    8. Re:This disrupts the CAN bus. by tomtefar · · Score: 1

      Since you seem a bit combative about this.

      Code analysis from the Toyota sudden acceleration case: http://www.viva64.com/en/a/0083/
      If the code is as horrible as described in the article, and can bug out during normal operation, it is not too far of a stretch to assume that feeding it noise on the CAN bus will induce unwanted behavior.

      Also, with dynamic brake control where brake pressure is individually adjusted to maximise grip during cornering/braking (trail braking), a poorly designed brake controller may also have issues and decrease brake pressure in unwanted ways when it is being fed crap CAN frames.

      Note that a CAN frame only has 15 bits of CRC, making it feasible to get a false positive on the CRC check on a 500Kbit bus with lots of traffic, thus having random data frames enter the controller code.

      Those are my arguments. If you do not agree, I think we would all appreciate if you provide more counter arguments than "nope. Try again.".

    9. Re:This disrupts the CAN bus. by vandamme · · Score: 1

      "Ain't No UFO Gonna Stop Mah Diesel" was an actual country song.

  35. Just utilize existing infrastructure:Smartphones by netsavior · · Score: 3, Insightful

    A much simpler approach would be to sniff their smartphones, so you could send the driver a text that says "STOP UR CAR, LOL"
    In my experience, the average driver will obey their smartphone screen more readily than local traffic laws.

  36. Dammit by srussia · · Score: 1
    --
    Set your phasers on "funky"!
  37. Re:Pros vs Cons - chases not cost effective by WillAffleckUW · · Score: 1

    Exactly. Why bother chasing when it's easier to trace them (a limpet GPS tracker works fine) and set up roadblocks?

    --
    -- Tigger warning: This post may contain tiggers! --
  38. Scrambled code? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    So, if these pulses scramble the code, who is legally responsible for an automobile accident 2 weeks later if the gas pedal sticks (ala Toyota)?

  39. protecting against strong EMI in general by volvox_voxel · · Score: 1

    As an engineer, I've spent a lot of time chasing the noise gremlins out of systems. For a time, I've worked on high power pulse lasers (+1J/pulse, sounded like gunfire every time it pulsed) ..It was a challenge to keep the noise down in the ADC's, protecting the FPGA/microcontrollers, etc, but it was manageable with good ground plane design, proper shielding, zener diodes, inductor chokes, pi filters, twisted-pair lines, hard-line coax, EMI filters on AC power inputs , etc. We also tried hard for it not to be a strong EMI emitter; something that was a challenge for us. .I wonder what kind of measures they take in cars, and are there low-hanging fruit? I am unfamiliar with protecting electronics from an EMP pulse, but am curious about how other engineers would model and protect against this. Faraday shields don't offer 100% attenuation, induced voltage gradients, etc.

    1. Re:protecting against strong EMI in general by bobbied · · Score: 1

      EMP protection is just EMI shielding for really high energy pulses with very fast rise times and long durations. So it is generally done in two stages. First is to filter out the high frequency energy with enough parallel capacitance to shunt it to ground, series inductance to slow the rise time followed by a means of dumping the voltage spikes to ground though an MOV. The second thing you do is avoid coupling of the EMP by providing a Faraday cage (shielding and metal boxes) or using non-conductive wiring (i.e. optical cables for data communication).

      In the end it is the same techniques used for EMI resistance, just tailored for the typical EMP pulse.

      --
      "File to fit, pound to insert, paint to match" - Aircraft Maintenance 101
  40. Re:Pros vs Cons - chases not cost effective by jklovanc · · Score: 1

    How do you get that limpet tracker attached to the vehicle?

  41. Can't afford health insurance? by jennatalia · · Score: 0

    Just get in a high-speed police chase and get awesome chemotherapy treatment. Imagine being able to stop idiot drivers or slow ones that drive under the speed limit? Teenagers? No problem. Microwave them. They're young bodies will be back to normal in no time.

    1. Re:Can't afford health insurance? by Virtucon · · Score: 1

      The TSA does a weekly Proctology exam on me, I'm clean as a whistle thanks to our never ending fight against terrorists.

      --
      Harrison's Postulate - "For every action there is an equal and opposite criticism"
  42. Exposure by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    It is difficult for me to believe that the amount of energy required to be beamed to the vehicle in order to disrupt its electronics is still below a safe level for the human riding the vehicle, or anyone else in the beam width of the antenna.

    If people are concerned about excessive exposure from cell phones, this should be off the charts.
     

    1. Re:Exposure by bobbied · · Score: 1

      Depends on the frequency spectrum being used and the duty cycle, but you make a fair point. MRI machines use really strong magnetic fields. They are pretty safe things for human flesh because the frequency and duty cycles used does not heat up things that much. Microwave ovens and classical "radar" frequencies can and do present a danger though heating.

      Personally, I'd be more worried about the nut aiming and firing the device getting some kind of dangerous exposure... But I suppose we can deal with that other ways.

      --
      "File to fit, pound to insert, paint to match" - Aircraft Maintenance 101
  43. It'd be interesting if thy rewired 'till it worked by volvox_voxel · · Score: 1

    It would have been interested to read about them trying to rewire these things until they worked; simple measures like twisting conductor pairs, etc.

  44. Wrong by itwasgreektome · · Score: 1

    They start as stops for minor offenses, but the reason most people run isn't for minor offenses. There's a subtle difference. The cop sees a person run a stop sign, they go to stop them. Is the person fleeing cause they ran a stop sign? No, the person is fleeing because they have warrants, or drugs in the car, or guns, etc. The cop doesn't know this though, they're not psychic. So, to the public, "Why did you chase him? All he did was run a stop sign!" If it comes to the attention of the bad guys that when they run and drive recklessly, that the police will stop chasing them, this will make bad guys run MORE thus endangering MORE lives in the long run. There are consequences for everything. Very few people run just because of a traffic offense, there's usually a lot more behind them running. Stopping pursuits teaches the bad guys to run more often. BAD MOVE.

    1. Re:Wrong by silas_moeckel · · Score: 1

      You apparently neglected to read the FBI's research. While I know this does not agree with TV cop drama's oddly I do not think the FBI has any reason to play down the severity.

      --
      No sir I dont like it.
    2. Re: Wrong by itwasgreektome · · Score: 1

      You apparently failed to understand what you were reading. The officer's only knowledge of suspect's illegal behavior when they initiate the stop is usually a traffic offense, yes. They are not psychic and do not know that the person is fleeing because there is a weapon in the car, all they know is the suspect ran a stop sign and then refused to stop for police. But they suspect when a suspect runs that there is something more nefarious to the fleeing. It is not until they catch the suspect, if they catch them, that they find the guns, drugs etc. Don't confuse the officer's probable cause for the stop with the suspect's motivation for fleeing. If you look further down on that fbi link, you'll see the percentage of reasons why suspects fled.

  45. What an incredibly dangerous device by It+doesn't+come+easy · · Score: 1

    Basically, this device is causing the car's computer(s) to crash. So, during low speed tests, in a wide open area, the car slowly glides to a stop??? I wonder what might happen if this were applied on a narrow highway, with lots of other vehicles on the road, at highway speeds? And what will happens when this device is used by the disgruntled (postal) worker, or some teens (not picking on teens, I used to be one myself) out for a mischievous time?

    What if occasionally the computer's crash in a less expected way -- say for a moment the computer thinks you're trying to "park" (using your computer controlled parking assistant) while traveling at 60 miles per hour?

    There are so many things wrong with this that it boggles the mind.

    --
    The NSA: The only part of the US government that actually listens.
    1. Re:What an incredibly dangerous device by Spy+Handler · · Score: 1

      The world is a really really scary place to you, isn't it?

    2. Re:What an incredibly dangerous device by DavidRawling · · Score: 1

      He probably works in OH&S (Occupational Health and Safety - or your local equivalent) or at an employer who has been burned in the past and now requires every possible risk to be itemised and managed (even if it makes a project cost 300% more).

  46. Re:Pros vs Cons - chases not cost effective by WillAffleckUW · · Score: 1

    there are launch devices. you can find them in any LEO product catalog.

    --
    -- Tigger warning: This post may contain tiggers! --
  47. anyone else catch this: by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    "It said it believed the primary use would be as a non-lethal weapon for the military to defend sensitive locations from vehicles refusing to stop."

    so why would a person refusing to stop in a sensitive area deploy the brakes? they would be more likely to just let the car coast and hit what ever is right in the way, and with standard cars you can decouple the motor and the drive line manually leaving nothing to actually apply the brakes..

    oh and

    "The firm added that it did not believe the RF Safe-Stop posed any risk to people using a pacemaker."

    its nice to know that they believe its safe.. ooh lawyers field day coming up! don't you think you would investigate that before making a prototype?

    1. Re:anyone else catch this: by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      On the radio the presenter was talking about using this to stop suicide bombers, I can imagine the fun when the RF ignites the trigger devide.

  48. Wait, this was in the UK, was it an English car? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    "its dashboard warning lights and dials behaved erratically, the engine stopped and the car rolled gently to a halt" This could have been Joeph Lucas, the Prince of Darkness or a rain drop! I never understood why the Misty Isles couldn't make a car that would keep running in the mist!

  49. Gort! by kaizendojo · · Score: 1

    Klaatu barada nictou.

  50. Yet another reason to drive an "old" car by Bearhouse · · Score: 2

    I drive an old Mercedes, with mechanical fuel injection and well...mechanical everything.
    The active safety is good, (I've upgraded the brakes and suspension) and Merc were among the first to design-in crumple zones, so passive not too bad.
    OK, I've no airbags...

    Not being a nutty survivalist, just like having a car where I can fix everything myself, and no fucker with an EMP device, or anything else for that matter, is going to stop me.

    Cost over the years (including fuel?), less than replacing it regularly with something "better".
     

    1. Re:Yet another reason to drive an "old" car by Catbeller · · Score: 2

      Far less. People always judge the worth of a car by its trade in value. They are mistaken; the value is the money *not* spent on a newer car. 1-2 thousand a year in repair is always cheaper than buying a new or new used car. Repairs and maintenance cost about 200 a month, averaged; cost of car payment is your down payment, divided by the use-life in months, plus car payment to bank or finance house, plus extra insurance cost each month for newer car vs old. Even subtracting old car trade-in, you will always be ahead. Good job.

      they've turned cars into unfixable iPods on wheels, because that forces everyone to keep getting replacement cars every few years. You won't see a twenty year old hybrid, ever.

    2. Re:Yet another reason to drive an "old" car by viperidaenz · · Score: 1

      You won't see a twenty year old hybrid, ever.

      I drove past a first gen Prius on the motorway yesterday. That's somewhere between 12 and 16 years old already. (Jap import, not American.)

    3. Re:Yet another reason to drive an "old" car by RogueWarrior65 · · Score: 1

      And people wonder why I drive a 27-year old truck.

  51. Police Justice by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    This is intended to be used by law enforcement so:

    1. He was a criminal. The police acted within policy guidelines. Case thrown out.*

    2. He was a criminal. The police acted within policy guidelines. Case thrown out.*

    3. He was a criminal. The police acted within policy guidelines. Case thrown out.*

    4. Driving is a privilege, not a right. Part of that privilege is responsibility to avoid accidents. The police acted within policy guidelines. Case thrown out.*

    5. We passed a law that makes this technology illegal outside of government use. Problem solved.

    I wish I was joking.

    *as long as there isn't a media uproar about a blonde, white woman being killed.

  52. What about drive by wire car ? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I'm really worried about electric and drive by wire car if this get sold on the market !

  53. Faraday Cage with a tuned waveguide?? by RobertLTux · · Score: 1

    all that would need to happen is for the pacemaker to be in a faraday cage (metalized shell??) and it have a waveguide on the EXACT wavelength needed to "talk" with it (for settings stuff).

    besides this would not be practical to have enough range to "pop" a number of cars at once (or a single car WAYYYY down the road).

    as far as a GoldenEye type deal the inverse square law says "Howdy here is your reality check (and sign)"

    --
    Any person using FTFY or editing my postings agrees to a US$50.00 charge
    1. Re:Faraday Cage with a tuned waveguide?? by Holi · · Score: 1

      Inverse Square does not come into effect in a directed beam. So if you have a directed emp beam then you will have some fall off in energy but not even close to what you would get from the inverse square law.

      It's like the difference between a light bulb and a laser, but are light but only one has to deal with the inverse square law.

      --
      Sorry, teleporters just kill you and then make a copy. A perfect, soul-less copy.
    2. Re: Faraday Cage with a tuned waveguide?? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Inverse square law applies to both.

      Your directed energy beam drops of with power with a ratio that is in proportion of the inverse square of the area of the beam at a certain distance.

      Omnidirectional transmitters are identical from the perspective of the inverse square law to a transmitter with the same power at the same distance directional antenna.

      Take for example an omni antenna that at 10 meters transmits x units of power over 1square millimeter.

      If your directional antenna exhibits the same power over the same surface area, at the same distance, then both transmitters behave identically in power over distance.

      Obviously the omni will be transmitting MUCH louder overall. But your directional beam will still disperse, and it's power will drop as according to the inverse square law. Which is all about distributing power over an area.

    3. Re:Faraday Cage with a tuned waveguide?? by vandamme · · Score: 1

      A light bulb is isotropic; a laser is high gain, but both deal with inverse square law. If you shine your laser at the moon, the beam is pretty wide when it gets there. which is why you can't have a, for instance, HAARP/Tesla Death Ray in Gakona, Alaska, and beam all those "Jigawatts" into a tiny spot in Haiti or Japan and cause an earthquake.

  54. Re:Just utilize existing infrastructure:Smartphone by bobbied · · Score: 1

    If nothing else, they will be distracted for a few seconds while they read the text and you can do the PIT move on them... Your plan has merit..

    --
    "File to fit, pound to insert, paint to match" - Aircraft Maintenance 101
  55. KITT could do this back in 1982 by nevermore94 · · Score: 1

    Although fictional, this is not a new idea. KITT from Knight Rider could do this back in 1982 with its Micro Jam system: http://knight-rider.wikia.com/wiki/Micro_Jam

    --
    Nevermore.
    1. Re:KITT could do this back in 1982 by Areyoukiddingme · · Score: 1

      I don't know which is more disturbing: the fact that you remember some device that showed up in a handful of Knight Rider episodes or the fact there's a wiki with an article dedicated to it. Or the fact that I actually followed the link to see what it said. It was a mercifully short article.

  56. Um, what will insurance companies say? by sandbagger · · Score: 1

    Okay. I'm a copper in hot pursuit of bank robbers. I aim the magnetron from the police station's microwave oven at the car and miss, cooking the electronics in the cameras, cars, watches of people we're driving past, as well as the inventory in the shops on the street.

    And someone with a pacemaker just dropped dead.

    I'd imagine there'd be some hefty insurance claims.

    --
    ---- The above post was generated by the Turing Institute. Maybe.
  57. Bullshit by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Any proof of these claims you are making? Why has no one tried this before if all it takes is a generator from Harbor Freight?

  58. Works for pacemakers too! by FellowConspirator · · Score: 1

    Ooops.

  59. doesn't seem safe to me by kegdepot · · Score: 1

    sounds like you're essentially put in a microwave that uses a wider range of spectrum..... not only does your car stop (and likely have electrical problems forever), but you muscles come out medium rare.

  60. How can they be SURE it won't floor the pedal? by RealGene · · Score: 1

    The throttle in my car is "drive by wire". So why is it safe to assume that the overloaded ECU won't output "full throttle" instead of some supposed 'safe' state?

    --
    Mission: To provide products that consume time and energy as entertainingly as permitted by the laws of thermodynamics.
    1. Re:How can they be SURE it won't floor the pedal? by Catbeller · · Score: 1

      It's not safe to assume. With a computer at the controls, you can never really predict an outcome - the ball doesn't have to bounce if the genie says it doesn't.

    2. Re:How can they be SURE it won't floor the pedal? by chuckugly · · Score: 1

      Data integrity checks on the CAN bus.

    3. Re:How can they be SURE it won't floor the pedal? by LinuxIsGarbage · · Score: 1

      Anything is possible, and accelerator pedal and throttle position sensors have redundant channels and the system is supposed to fault to a power-off state (typically a fast idle limp-mode). So your scenario wouldn't happen if there was an erroneous signal on one channel. It would have to have the ECU believe WOT was requested (even though both channels are at idle). Say the ECU's memory got corrupt and the value in memory got overwritten. For the car to actually go out of control and accelerate, everything else would have to work as designed: crankshaft position sensor will have to work to know when to inject gas and fire plugs, fuel injectors and spark plugs would have to continue to fire properly, all your O2 sensors MAF, etc would have to continue to operate properly to give a correct fuel/air mixture, fuel pump would have to continue running, transmission solenoids (in an automatic) would have to stay engaged.

  61. It's a pinch! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    It's a pinch!

  62. Risk assessment by chuckugly · · Score: 1

    For a motorcycle, the instrument cluster isn't really in your face, one of the nice things about the experience. No competent rider should have even the slightest issue with an engine shutdown in a motorcycle. That's just that. The most that would happen is in some very high performance models the variable steering damper might misbehave, but if you're riding in a way that you need that, you're already well outside the realm of legal operations. For the car, the steering will possibly get stiff and brakes less responsive, and as you say, there will be possibly some distractions. As long as it's less dangerous in sum than a protracted high speed chase, it's still a win.

  63. Re:Just utilize existing infrastructure:Smartphone by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    No, sorry, this is complete nonsense.

    However might I suggest that most drivers will read their smartphone texts, almost without regard to their need to pay attention to the road. Therefore the thing to do is to send them a text, something designed to grab and hold their attention. Something like, "hey, check out this link for Lindsay Lohan's naked selfie!".

    In the ensuing moments law enforcement will have a reasonable chance of merely cleaning up a traffic accident. A tree or light standard, that's a relatively small price to get a dangerous driver off the road.

  64. So if I'm a bad guy, my first task is to . by sandbagger · · Score: 2

    Take the magnetron out of an old microwave and attach it to the rear bumper with a switch. In case the police are chasing me I turn it on to disable their car before they can pull in from of me to disable mine.

    You see, being the bad guy, I'm going to be in the pole position in this particular car race.

    --
    ---- The above post was generated by the Turing Institute. Maybe.
    1. Re:So if I'm a bad guy, my first task is to . by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      And why do you expect that the cops will be driving cars that could be so affected? The rules do not apply to the rulers. Haven't you learned that yet?

    2. Re:So if I'm a bad guy, my first task is to . by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Because they buy Fords?

    3. Re:So if I'm a bad guy, my first task is to . by DNS-and-BIND · · Score: 1

      Bad guys are impulsive men who mostly grew up without fathers. It doesn't occur to them to think ahead. Your scenario won't be a problem.

      --
      Shutting down free speech with violence isn't fighting fascism. It IS fascism!
  65. Re:Pros vs Cons - chases not cost effective by jklovanc · · Score: 1

    References? I can't seem to find any.

  66. Won't work. by dutchwhizzman · · Score: 2

    You'd have to faraday your entire car for this to work. Your entire wiring loom is one big antenna for this sort of signal. At the wavelength of radar, you'd be having a hard time keeping it all out too. Even tiny gaps to let the streering and drive shafts through, signal would probably creep in.

    Making the electronic circuit boards themselves filter all their I/O and power lines for HF and over-voltage would be much easier to accomplish and probably more effective.

    --
    I was promised a flying car. Where is my flying car?
    1. Re:Won't work. by icebike · · Score: 4, Interesting

      The car is already a pretty good Faraday Cage, being mostly metal.

      The fact that this took so long to arrive in a viable product (it it is in fact viable) suggest how difficult the task of shutting down a car is. Presumably it is getting easier, because cars are no so much more dependent on computers.

      The problem I see is that unless this device can be triggered precisely upon arrival of the target vehicle, you would end up clogging a freeway with 40 stalled vehicles just as your getaway car arrives. So you dump your desperate criminal in a bunch of helpless and confused hostages. If you could aim it, and and make it safe enough to carry on a helicopter you might have a useful product.

      As described it sounds simply like another over-reaction tool for police.

      --
      Sig Battery depleted. Reverting to safe mode.
    2. Re:Won't work. by Jeremiah+Cornelius · · Score: 1

      Copper cladding. :-P

      --
      "Flyin' in just a sweet place,
      Never been known to fail..."
    3. Re:Won't work. by wagemonkey · · Score: 1

      I'm more worried about some lowlife turning one on the police helicopter.

    4. Re:Won't work. by Agripa · · Score: 1

      You just have to shield the important parts and add common mode chokes and maybe feedthrough capacitors.

  67. Just think of the impact to Bezo's Drones by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    It's quite interesting to see this posting on the heels of Jeff Bezo's fantastic claims to be only years away from drones that will deliver his zero-profits goods in 1/2 hour. Get your hands on one of these little zappers and you can go shopping from the end of your driveway.

    1. Re:Just think of the impact to Bezo's Drones by Virtucon · · Score: 1

      you don't need a zapper just a good old fashioned slingshot, a dog trained at catching frisbees or a shotgun all of which means that this will never work in Texas.

      --
      Harrison's Postulate - "For every action there is an equal and opposite criticism"
  68. Rad Proof: by Hartree · · Score: 1

    Let em try it with my 1982 diesel Suburban.

    It should survive the EMP and radiation from a nearby nuke without even stalling let alone some HERF gun wannabe.

    I'd probably not survive that though it might take a couple weeks to die.

    1. Re:Rad Proof: by geekoid · · Score: 1

      ug. Old people and their crappy cars.

      --
      The Kruger Dunning explains most post on /. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect
    2. Re:Rad Proof: by Hartree · · Score: 1

      Indeed!

      Now, come closer so I can whack you with my cane. ;)

  69. If this was a kid in a garage he'd be a terrorist by davydagger · · Score: 1

    The irony of this story, is if it was some kid in his garage trying this out he'd he labled a terrorist.

    If an established companies does it with the intentions of selling it to the authorities, who will, almost definately misuse it, its innovation

  70. EMPs dirsupt Vehicles by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    In other news, rain is wet.

    C'Mon this made it as a story?

    Who doesn't know this? An entire bond movie was focused around this exact idea.

  71. Re:Pros vs Cons - chases not cost effective by WillAffleckUW · · Score: 1

    I can't help that you're not supposed to be able to browse things only government LEO forces are supposed to browse.

    --
    -- Tigger warning: This post may contain tiggers! --
  72. Not new by g0bshiTe · · Score: 1

    This has been done before. I think at one time law enforcement were looking at launching rocket propelled trams from under a police cruiser, when deployed large metal prongs would pop up, when it rolled under a car in front of it, ideally the car the police were pursuing the engine would be fried and bring the car to a stop.

    --
    I am Bennett Haselton! I am Bennett Haselton!
  73. Unlikely for the components that matter. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Running fiber optice cables right up to the engine seems unlikely to me, nevermind fitting said electronics onto every engine-mounted device that could currently be interfered with by this system.

  74. So... Faraday cages for everyone. by Karmashock · · Score: 1

    I'd like to also see this tried on a much more primitive engine... one that didn't make use of transistors.

    --
    I've decided to stop wasting my time responding to AC trolls/sockpuppets... so if you want a response from me... login.
  75. What's old is new again. by VortexCortex · · Score: 1

    Remember when you could key your CB radio and watch those newfangled electronic injection cars down-throttle? I do. It was funny. This RF Pulse technology has no effect on cars with carburetors.

  76. Re:Pros vs Cons - chases not cost effective by jklovanc · · Score: 1

    Found one.
    They are also not without flaws;

    So back to StarChase, this "revolutionary" GPS launching system: It has some flaws. The cannon costs $5,000 and the non-reusable GPS "bullets" cost $500 each. During a recent media demonstration, four sticky bullets were fired at a car, but only one of them stayed stuck.

    That was under good conditions. It is a good idea but not very practical.

  77. My 60 VW bus is immune... Hurrah! by Virtucon · · Score: 1

    Old School Technology Rulz while you all with your new fangled infotainment system and ABS and TPS senors and electronic fuel injection will all be hitchhiking, I will be cruising along in my Jerry Garcia special...

    Burning/Leaking oil
    Gas Tank right behind the engine waiting to explode.
    No Seat Belts

    And you all think the Carerra GT is dangerous...

    --
    Harrison's Postulate - "For every action there is an equal and opposite criticism"
  78. Re:Pros vs Cons - chases not cost effective by WillAffleckUW · · Score: 1

    That was under good conditions. It is a good idea but not very practical.

    Didn't say they weren't without flaws. The best GPS tags are placed, not shot. Shooting them is not needed when it's a recent model car - those have tracking in them already. Also license plate trackers and other ident software on most major urban arterials and most freeways.

    --
    -- Tigger warning: This post may contain tiggers! --
  79. Not that new by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    They have tested many devices like this over the past decade here in the US. None are currently being used because they have a bad habit of disrupting pacemakers, and insulin pumps, even if the driver of the fleeing car does not have either of these they still would have to be worried about bystanders. In order for this to be morally right to use it would have to be highly precise in aiming and with the various place the ECU in cars can be located would really be ineffective. The only place that I could see this being used is in a high speed chase with the remote highway which has been closed off, and at those speeds the disabled car might cost beyond the range of the device and then be able to restart, and in those situations someone could make an argument of just using an anti-material rifle.

  80. Re:Pros vs Cons - chases not cost effective by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    So total bullshit. Got it. Cites or go home.

  81. Re:Pros vs Cons - chases not cost effective by jklovanc · · Score: 1

    Shooting them is not needed when it's a recent model car - those have tracking in them already.

    That generally require a warrant and time to get access to that information and there are many cars without trackers in them or with their trackers disabled.

    Also license plate trackers and other ident software on most major urban arterials and most freeways.

    Another slow source of data that is near useless in real time tracking.

    Someone has been watching too many TV shows. Real life is not that easy.

  82. Re:Just utilize existing infrastructure:Smartphone by viperidaenz · · Score: 1

    Or a nearby lamp post will stop them.

  83. Re:Pros vs Cons - chases not cost effective by WillAffleckUW · · Score: 1

    So total bullshit. Got it. Cites or go home.

    See one of the other responses which did have access to such catalogs.

    Get a job.

    --
    -- Tigger warning: This post may contain tiggers! --
  84. Re:Pros vs Cons - chases not cost effective by WillAffleckUW · · Score: 1

    Depends on the state or "district" and the legal structure.

    In Washington State, yes, but you can't track GPS or other info without a warrant anyway, so if you don't have one, you're not going to do this.

    If a terrorist or near a border there are other exceptions, and a lot of the "dark" networks they say are turned off get turned on when needed.

    You must live in a crowded part of the country - here there are only so many exits people can take - fairly easy to not chase people without risk.

    --
    -- Tigger warning: This post may contain tiggers! --
  85. Re:Pros vs Cons - chases not cost effective by jklovanc · · Score: 1

    a lot of the "dark" networks they say are turned off get turned on when needed.

    Which takes time and probably won't be done for a traffic stop.

    You must live in a crowded part of the country

    A lot of people live in crowded areas; that is why they are crowded. It also assumes that most high speed chases occur on major urban arterials and freeways which is not true at all.

  86. One step ahead of The Man by PopeRatzo · · Score: 1

    Ha ha, they won't be able to stop my '82 Plymouth Reliant. Well, at least not once I get it started again.

    I knew there was a good reason I kept it up on blocks out behind the garage. All those years my wife gave me grief about it and the family of squirrels living in it, but now who's smart? Hm?

    --
    You are welcome on my lawn.
  87. On the other hand... by mariox19 · · Score: 2

    So you dump your desperate criminal in a bunch of helpless and confused hostages.

    If you have one of these and you're the criminal, you dump the police car pursuing you in a mass of 40 stalled vehicles.

    --

    quiquid id est, timeo puellas et oscula dantes.

  88. abusable as the taser by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    So how long before some dumb pig cop kills someone with a pacemaker using this

  89. LOL seriously they're all fulla shit by ArchieBunker · · Score: 2

    Nothing but neckbeards spewing jargon out of their ass. Feeding a microwave transformer into a satellite dish does nothing. "Technically possible" means you think it is but have no engineering background to explain any theory or concepts.

    --
    Only the State obtains its revenue by coercion. - Murray Rothbard
  90. Need a different form - the CARPOON! by spineboy · · Score: 1

    Have a police car with a Taser type of device, except it's a bit heavier duty - enought to stick into the cars metal skin.
    Once it sticks - it fires a big electric shock, frying the cars electronics, and shuts the whole works down.

    Yes

    The Carpoon

    --
    ..........FULL STOP.
  91. What about the effects to humans? by durin · · Score: 1

    What frequency and power is this? Standing in front of a real radar transmitter is basically like cramming yourself into a microwave oven and hitting the power switch. Not so healthy. And he's basically saying that "It's a small radar transmitter"

    --
    Why, yes! I AM new here.
  92. old news by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    ... causing them to shut down and cut the engine ...

    Governments have been asking for kill switches in private cars for 20 years now. The problem is two-fold: 1) being able to identify a specific car, 2) preventing the removal or malevolent activation of the kill switch.

    ... the device at about 15mph ...

    Yeah this is like that James Bond movie: A magnetized watch that can stop bullets. Leaving aside the fact there's no iron in a bullet; at speed, the target will be in the electro-magnetic field of the attacker for milli-seconds. Which won't be enough time to cause electrical damage.

  93. Other electronic devices? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Apart from engine control, which electronics will be harmed with such a device? Anything that can make electronic devices behave erratically can also damatge those devices permanently.

    Will it "stop dead" people wearing pacemakers? Maybe even not just the persons in the car, but bystanders, too?

    If the police by chance kills some bankrobbers car just in front of my house, will It kill my home electronics, too? Maybe even permanently damage devices (Storage!)?

    AFAIK the good old toyota land cruiser pickup is the vehicle of choice in some countries for paramillitary units (Look at all the land cruisers with MGs in the middle east). Is this kind of car ancient enough to evade this chip killer system?

    Lets see what happens if the bad guys get their hands on such a thing, and start stopping cars to rob the owners. Or prison busses. Or police cars chasing them. Or armored cars with valuables. Or just stop cars to produce chaos - just swwep this thing across the key roads during morning rush hour in a few places, and the police will be tied up, without any chance to react to a theft/bank robbery...

    All in all, more qustions than answers...

  94. And steering systems? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    This is dangerous as hell.

    There are drive by wire steering systems as well as brakes that this will affect. You can't guarantee that it wont cause a sudden application of left/right steering or sudden braking by the ABS ECU.

    You also have steering assist systems that can be ECU controlled as well.

    I rather this tech never sees real-world use.

  95. "rolled gently to a halt" by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    well duh! it was only going 15 mph. Try it in a vaguely realistic use case and see what happens.

  96. Exactly, Civillians have no choice, we are cattle by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Exactly, Civillians have no choice, we are cattle.

    We have the freedom to OBEY.
    We must obey all their laws and dictates.

    They say we can't have little girl wives, so we can't.
    Can't have good weapons, so we can't.

    I hate this cuntry and all like it (china etc).

    The poster you responded to is probably working for the goverment with his (or her) "we" bullshit.

    I wish "we" could and would overthrow the government and destroy it completely down to the last marble brick in the capitol. This is a police state, and a feminist one at that. Worthless.

  97. Autobahn strikes back by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Those early 1970s german Mercedes cars with naturally aspirated, mechanically injected, heat filament-ignited diesel engines are probably immune to such EMP attempts. Furthermore, they will circle the globe 20x, loaded with luggage to the brim, without any need for repairs or refurbishment. Surely, they are not lighting fast, nor have rocket-like acceleration, but extremely reliable, built to last and consume relatively little fuel. In many parts of the world, they are still being used to carry vegetables to the market every day, etc.

  98. Am I missing something? by L4t3r4lu5 · · Score: 1

    Switch off the engine, dump the clutch, coast out of range, bump start.

    Am I on a watch list now?

    --
    Finally had enough. Come see us over at https://soylentnews.org/
  99. Tunnels by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    My first thought was not of high speed pursuit, but of automatically stopping trucks before they destroy tunnels.

  100. Car jacking. by QuasiRob · · Score: 1

    This should make it much easier for car jackers, robbers at traffic lights, etc to attack their victoms.

    --
    If you try to fail and succeed, which have you done?
  101. missing the point by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Surely if you were at a runway you would have tested it on an airplane???

  102. ZAP by vandamme · · Score: 1

    A few days ago I found a hand-held tesla coil in my junk box (I used to use it for finding tiny leaks in glass, uh, "things"). I brought it upstairs to show my son, turmed it on and showed him a 2 inch arc from the "nose" over to an outlet cover. My wife's brand new LED floor lamp was plugged in, and it went right out. There were some anxious seconds before it turned on again and worked normally.

    Semiconductors are getting smaller and faster all the time, and there's a lot of MOSFETs used where in the olden days there were big bipolars with large junction capacitance. Stuff is UL tested for emissions, but not susceptibility. Cars, though, do have RF susceptibility standards.

  103. Also good for shooting Amazon Drones out of the sk by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I'm sure these could be used to attack drones or zoom in on a specific car if mounted on a drone or even more scarily to take down an airplane. Too scary for my taste.

  104. RF vehicle stopping by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    This system seems much more advanced: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=56veH8-KbEM

  105. Older cars by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Will this affect my 68 rotted out Cutlass?