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Employee Morale Is Suffering At the NSA
Hugh Pickens DOT Com writes "Ellen Nakashima reports at the Washington Post that morale has taken a hit at the National Security Agency in the wake of controversy over the agency's surveillance activities and officials are dismayed that President Obama has not visited the agency to show his support. 'It is not clear whether or when Obama might travel the 23 miles up the Baltimore-Washington Parkway to visit Fort Meade, the NSA's headquarters in Maryland,' writes Nakashima, 'but agency employees are privately voicing frustration at what they perceive as White House ambivalence amid the pounding the agency has taken from critics.' Though Obama has asserted that the NSA's collection of virtually all Americans' phone records is lawful and has saved lives, the administration has not endorsed legislation that would codify it. And his recent statements suggest Obama thinks some of the NSA's activities should be constrained. 'The agency, from top to bottom, leadership to rank and file, feels that it is had no support from the White House even though it's been carrying out publicly approved intelligence missions,' says Joel Brenner, NSA inspector general from 2002 to 2006. 'They feel they've been hung out to dry, and they're right.' Former officials note how President George W. Bush paid a visit to the NSA in January 2006, in the wake of revelations by the New York Times that the agency engaged in a counterterrorism program of warrantless surveillance on U.S. soil beginning after the Sept. 11, 2001, terrorist attacks. 'Bush came out and spoke to the workforce, and the effect on morale was tremendous,' Brenner said. 'There's been nothing like that from this White House.' Morale is 'bad overall' says another former NSA official. 'It's become very public and very personal. Literally, neighbors are asking people, 'Why are you spying on Grandma?'"
That Snowden got all the attention, maybe others were planing on blowing some whistles
I would say these are exactly the sorts of questions we should be asking, and they should be able to answer.
Scientists point out problems, engineers fix them
altslashdot.org: The future of slashdot.
n/t
That Obama would condemn and stop being ambivalent, but I suppose letting them stew is enough.
Silence is a state of mime.
Well, I sure missed *that* call.
Literally, neighbors are asking people, 'Why are you spying on Grandma?'
So, they're hoping that the public approval of the president will keep them from having to come up with an answer to that question?
I guess nothing alleviates the need for thoughtful introspection like a big pat on the head from the master.
If you want a vision of the future, imagine a youtube comments section scrolling - forever.
The problem is, no one has a clue what the NSA is doing. Even if they are the kind of people who would normally support spying for defense purposes, it's not even clear what defensive purposes the NSA is serving.
When Obama defends the NSA spying programs, he says, "If we're gonna do a good job preventing a terrorist attack in this country, a weapon of mass destruction getting on the New York subway system, et cetera, we do want to keep eyes on some bad actors."
OK, but that's not very convincing, especially when a few months ago Obama was saying the war on terror is over.
"First they came for the slanderers and i said nothing."
to the employees who have worked there tens of year knowing what they are doing. Now one man opened his mouth, and the rest of the cattle is feeling bad.
Bou hou. Cry me a river.
You must have a spine.
09 F9 11 02 9D 74 E3 5B - D8 41 56 C5 63 56 88 C0 45 5F E1 04 22 CA 29 C4 93 3F 95 05 2B 79 2A B2
Violating the constitution SHOULD make you feel like shit.
Hint to NSA minions who want to redeem themselves: there is no apology more sincere than hara-kiri. Spill your guts, and we might forgive you.
-jcr
The only title of honor that a tyrant can grant is "Enemy of the State."
I retired a couple of years ago from a near-30 year career with the Internal Revenue Service.
People tried to kill me on more than one occasion. Dogs were set on me more times than I can remember. A man once openly threatened to kill me, in front of witnesses, while we were standing in a courthouse hallway, on a break, during a jury selection.
People comitted suicide from dealing with us even when doing so made no sense; they simply let their ignorant fears of the Big Bad put them in a bad place, mentally.
When a parade of kooks and idiots testified to Congress in 1998 that we were all baby-eating monsters, NO ONE stood up for us. Horrific legislation that left the agency permanently hamstrung resulted.
Over the last 3 decades, the IRS has actually deserved about 1% of the vitriol poured out on it. Morale is a thing of the past.
Yet, still, no one stands up for the IRS. Those of us who worked there had to adapt. It's possible.
To those at the NSA who are just awakening to the new reality that people are, now and forevermore, going to hate you whether you deserve it or not, I can only say "Welcome to my world. Learn to deal with it. It'll drive you nuts if you don't."
Sure, Obama should take the heat, and certainly he is standing up for them in my experience.
But it's hard to buy the narrative of NSA employees and leadership as innocent victims. They are following poilcy, but Obama doesn't personally design and approve all activities of the million person, trillion dollar executive branch. Much of their activity is of their own design and initiative.
They may be unhappy but they need to stop targeting it at someone else. They are responsible. Perhaps they should feel a little guilty that Snowdon was the only one with the nerve to act responsibly.
Washington Post:
"Last month, we reported on LOVEINT, the facetious term used to describe NSA analysts who misuse their surveillance powers to spy on romantic interests instead of terrorists. Sen. Charles Grassley (R-Iowa) asked the NSA to get more specific about the misconduct the NSA had uncovered. So the NSA sent Grassley a letter with details of the 12 LOVEINT incidents it has uncovered since 2003.
The incidents have a number of things in common. Almost all of them involved spying on foreigners outside of the United States (one man targeted his American girlfriend, and a few others spied on communications involving both Americans and foreigners). In seven of the 12 cases, the misbehaving employee resigned while the disciplinary process was ongoing. The rest received letters of reprimand, got demoted, lost pay, were denied security clearances or faced other punishments. None of the individuals were prosecuted for their actions."
"Not prosecuted"? No wonder they're not getting any support. (amongst many, many, many other reasons)
'It's become very public and very personal. Literally, neighbors are asking people, 'Why are you spying on Grandma?'"
Were they my neighbors, I would be asking the same thing.
Were they my friends, I would shun them.
Were they my significant other, I would leave them.
The notion in the USA that the minions are innocent and "just following orders" is ridiculous. Unless conscripted (which these people are not), they are as complicit as their masters. These people are damaging the USA in profound ways. They deserve it to be uncomfortable every step of the way.
Learn to deal with it indeed. It won't be changing anytime soon. It's part of the price you pay for a sweet government gig.
but agency employees are privately voicing frustration at what they perceive...
Jeez, of all people, you'd think the ones working at the NSA realize that this can't be!
I have left slashdot and am now on Soylent News. FUCK YOU DICE.
... It kind of happens when you are found out for conspiracy against the people you are meant to serve and protect.
It's called having a conscience. Or lack of, since morale is only suffering after you've been caught.
While I know there are some crazies out there, I think more than 1% of the scorn heaped on you guys is deserved. I don't know about you personally, but the IRS is responsible for ruining people's lives and lacking proper accountability and due process for the individual taxpayer.
Here's an amusing anecdote about power-tripping IRS agents that luckily didn't end up ruining anyone financially:
I have a friend who got audited one time; the IRS found a minor problem and my friend simply offered to pay the penalty on the spot (it was very minor, like a couple hundred dollars for an improper deduction or something). The IRS auditor told him to sit down and shut up so that he could berate him. My friend wasn't going to have any of that and simply left the IRS office. He never heard from them again about the supposed improper deduction and wasn't asked to pay.
You know what this sounds like? "Aw shucks, people don't like me because they caught me peeping in their windows and jerking off. Don't they know I'm helping to keep them safe? What's wrong with them?"
It sounds like a lot of them are sad people don't like them, not that they were unwittingly helping to ruin America. They need a big ol' whack across the head with a cluebat.
However maybe some of them actually have souls. I'd feel like crap too if I was a party to trampling all over the constitution and promoting a police state. Maybe we'll see another one with a brain and a conscience grow a pair and do something about it. It's hard to do when you have people you love who depend on you but that's life. Life isn't fair. Shit needs to get better and it requires sacrifice. If you can't handle that then you're a crappy patriot.
Especially when the US didn't accept such logic in the Nuremberg Trials. "Just following orders" does not excuse things.
Iagree that violating the Constitutionshould absolutely make somebody feel like shit -- but unless the person is an unrepentant killer, telling them to commit suicide isn't cool. Isay that not so much for them, but because I've known a few people that lost someone they cared about that way, and wouldn't wish the pain I saw on anyone unless they were genuinely horrible people themselves. Hell, one of my exes intermittently fought off suicidal depression, and Iwouldn't wish the terror it put me through on anyone remotely decent.
Now mostly at Usenet:comp.misc & SoylentNews.org (it's made of people!)
It's really a pain to get a letter from the IRS, informing you have a fine, but not explaining the fine and also not telling you how to challenge the fine.
And that's just the beginning.
"First they came for the slanderers and i said nothing."
I have a friend who got audited one time; the IRS found a minor problem and my friend simply offered to pay the penalty on the spot (it was very minor, like a couple hundred dollars for an improper deduction or something). The IRS auditor told him to sit down and shut up so that he could berate him. My friend wasn't going to have any of that and simply left the IRS office. He never heard from them again about the supposed improper deduction and wasn't asked to pay.
They are just biding their time until the penalties compound enough for them to simultaneously garnish his wages and seize his house.
'The agency, from top to bottom, leadership to rank and file, feels that it is had no support from the White House even though it's been carrying out publicly approved intelligence missions,' says Joel Brenner, NSA inspector general from 2002 to 2006.
Maybe you haven't been listening to the reaction Joel, but NOBODY APPROVES of your stupid fucking agency and the stupid fucking things they do. Except perhaps your authoritarian, imperialist, warmonger friends in Congress (Feinstein and the like).
You probably won't realize why this is happening until you figure out how to admit how utterly fucking wrong you are. It's YOUR FAULT that your agency (and all other intelligence agencies) are hated because you decided to run out of control without a single shred of oversight. Don't blame this embarrassing atrocity on any one else.
I have left slashdot and am now on Soylent News. FUCK YOU DICE.
they should stop harming the country.
I think you are being a bit mean, but you do have a point. There are systems of taxation where it is impossible for most folks to be in arrears, where filing returns is not necessary, and which don't require such a large bureaucracy. The IRS - at least in its current form - is probably unnecessary. You don't hear this kind of vitriol directed towards state sales tax officials.
W..w..W - Willy Waterloo washes Warren Wiggins who is washing Waldo Woo.
I remember this really old adage that my mom used to tell me... Something about reaping or sowing or some shit. Been a while since I heard that one.
NSA employees operate in a strictly compartmentalised environment where the need to know is enforced. Some people are in positions of extreme trust, but the vast majority are not. We all need to understand that the revelations coming from Snowden's leaks are just as surprising to the vast majority of NSA employees as they are to the public at large. A good number of these people will be equally dismayed at the actions of their employer. We don't need to hound the individuals. The organisation is fair game though.
Patent litigation: A doctrine of Mutually Assured Destruction... in which everyone seems willing to push the button
Everyone is seizing on this "why are you spying on grandma?" line and saying 'Damn right they should be ashamed and demoralized, stupid jackboots!'
Except the NSA has something like 30,000 people. It's hardly as though every one of them are involved in monitoring US civilian communications. Maybe, just maybe, some of them are demoralized because they have not a damn thing to do with anything in the news, yet they're being treated like demons.
They're not the KKK, they're not the Westboro Baptist Church. The agency has redeeming qualities, and being a security organization there are probably *thousands* of them who know nothing more about these surveillance programs than we know. I'd be upset, too, if people were asking me to answer for something I knew absolutely nothing about simply because a huge division of my company two floors down were assholes.
Stop lumping them all together as one giant boogeyman. Look for the people responsible rather than naming the entire agency an inscrutible, invisible hand with nefarious intentions.
...why ARE you spying on Grandma?
1) There was never any day of "virtually unlimited budgets."
2) Do you assert that the United States currently faces specific real resources shortfalls, even given the current large output gap? If not, can you propose a specific, realistic mechanism why the United States would currently face fiscal constraints, even given persistently low inflation?
.: Semper Absurda
I don't know about the Gestapo. But I watched interviews with ex-Stasi who continued to believe that they did what needed to be done and hence were patriotic. No second thoughts.
HE isn't saying commit biological suicide. He is saying "do what Snowden did" - it is an American figure of speech.
http://idioms.thefreedictionary.com/spill+guts
dare I say it: working at _commercial_ spying places should also be met with the same hatred.
I'm looking at you, google. and others, but google is the current poster child of unwanted tracking and spying and is the definition of 'power, out of control'. and yet, people are still lining up to go work there. even full well knowing what they are doing.
--
"It is now safe to switch off your computer."
You must either think that it doesn't matter what specific crimes are committed, or that non-violent crimes (like illegal spying) should be punished by death.
.: Semper Absurda
The bastards got caught, and the poor little dears are upset..
Fuck 'em.
Scruting the inscrutable for over 50 years.
I took an english class in college on the "rhetoric of intimidation". that is, how to write in order to intimidate. Not surprisingly, example #1 was the IRS. the professor had spent years studying with them and working with them. One of her favorite stories was when she learned that the majority of the time, an audit occurred because the IRS's records on you didn't match, and rather than figure it out they audit you to make you figure it out.
My best friend works with a lot of self-employed people. One of them had several (3 or 4) years in a row where his tax refund would have been miniscule, something like $10 or $20 in the black, so he didn't even bother sending in the forms. He figured he'd just let the government keep the money. The IRS responded by sending him a bill for roughly $10,000 owed, because they figured that was a nice round number to make up.
I'm sure everybody here has anecdotes like this. That "1%" of bad eggs you talk about must have been terribly terribly busy.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UrOZllbNarw
(notice how much hasn't changed in 15 years)
My God, it's Full of Source!
OUTSIDE_IP=$(dig +short my.ip @outsideip.net)
He said 'Hara-kiri', not sure if that's specifically 'Seppaku'.
I think we'd all be better off if they pulled a wood chipper up in front of the NSA building. Feet first for the big cheeses, head first for the foot soldiers.
John McAfee 'It was like that time I hired that Bangkok prostitute; to do my taxes, while I fucked my accountant'
I know this isn't a popular belief, but I actually am willing to buy into the idea that most of them had no idea this sort of stuff was going on. You gotta figure that with it being a compartmentalized intelligence agency, the right hand may not know what the left is doing in many cases, particularly for the rank-and-file employees. And by all indications, most of the things we're hearing about really were the result of initiatives being pushed through by top people who had a couple of small teams of developers willing to do their dirty work.
For instance, one of PRISM's selling points was that it was low-budget on account of it only having a few developers. Considering the budget the agency has, I'm guessing they employ a LOT of people, yet we're mostly hearing about programs that only need a handful of people at most. Seems to me that it's entirely plausible that the vast majority of NSA workers actually are decent people doing legitimate (and legal) work, and for them, it's a shame what's happened. By no means am I excusing the ones directly responsible for this stuff, nor the ones who had awareness of it, but I'm willing to bet that quite a few of the rank-and-file are just as outraged as we are, but know that abandoning their mission would only make things worse, since the work that those people are doing is still necessary.
But if acknowledging such a thing is too difficult for most of us here, let's go ahead and believe that every last one of them is irredeemable scum who deserve to die a slow death. Because none of us here have ever been in a situation where people we were associated with did bad, perhaps even unconscionable, things without us having a say in it. Right?
I don't know how you missed this while working there, but the IRS deliberately cultivates that reputation. They WANT to be known as baby-eating killers, they want people to fear dealing with them so much that they don't even risk anything which could result in an audit even if it's 100% legal. The IRS has been doing government by terrorism for a very long time now, and it's quite effective.
Every so often the people get uppity, so the IRS has to pull something like holding day care students hostage until the parents pay the school's taxes. That usually works.
Hara-kiri and seppuku are synonymous. They are two different ways to say the same thing, but seppuku tends to be used in more formal speech.
Wh47 d1d j00 541, 31337 15n't t3h r0xor5 ne m0r3???
I did mean suicide, but if any of them come clean like Snowden did, then they should get a pardon.
-jcr
The only title of honor that a tyrant can grant is "Enemy of the State."
I'm surprised to find myself feeling conflicted in thinking about this situation from that point of view. On the one hand, the people making decisions at the NSAare acting like spoiled brats whining that Daddy doesn't love them anymore because he showed displeasure at their misbehavior.
On the other, our fucked-up economy has left a lot of people desperate enough to hold onto their jobs (especially if they have dependents to support) that I can easily see an average employee letting themselves believe their superiors' reassurance that their orders were legal/necessary or that their role is so minor that it didn't make a big difference. It's also very possible that many employees were chosen specifically based on a lack of knowledge about our rights, so they didn't even realize they were doing bad things. Either way, after all of those years of reassurance, having their leader turn his back on them to save his own ass when they're under attack would suck beyond belief -- and Ican only feel disgust for that behavior on his part.
We all like to believe that we wouldn't be as 'weak' as the people that violated the Constitution/Bill of Rights as part of following orders, that we'd stand up to our boss/superior or maybe even pull a Snowden... But we also all like to believe we wouldn't cause horrible harm to others through abusing power or following orders, and virtually all of us are wrong.
Now mostly at Usenet:comp.misc & SoylentNews.org (it's made of people!)
To the disgruntled NSA employees: you feel this way because you know what you're doing would have our founding fathers rolling in their graves! Take a stand, dammit. While easier for me to say than you to do, quit your job if it sounds wrong and send a clear message that this violation of privacy and more is wrong and you won't have any party of it. I bet then you could sleep better at night about your professional life, but maybe not as far as paying your bills.
Chewbacon
The Bible is like Wikipedia: written by a bunch of people and verifiable by questionable sources.
I give my information to Google willingly. The NSA, on the other hand, takes my information from me without recourse. The gap between the two entities is wide enough that I feel vastly more animosity towards the NSA.
I welcome our new 99% overlords.
Some doctors are upset for not getting support after they helped torturing detained suspects.
In both cases, that maybe shows that very deep inside them, there is still a human being trying to confess the crimes that even they realize that are doing. "I was just following orders" don't cut the pain anymore.
Hint to NSA minions who want to redeem themselves: there is no apology more sincere than hara-kiri. Spill your guts, and we might forgive you.
You must either think that it doesn't matter what specific crimes are committed, or that non-violent crimes (like illegal spying) should be punished by death.
This is not about punishment, he's merely offering them a way to retain (or regain) some of their honour.
They've been upset for a long time, about doing secret, unapproved missions. It's a snowden LEAK that make their discontent ... public knowledge.
Meh. I disagree - I think most NSA employees love that they get to do something really james-bond-ish, get a blank-check budget, and have essentially unlimited power over everyone else. There is no doubt a strong voyeuristic angle to the whole thing. They're also, by and large, getting paid obscene amounts of money.
I've met a number of people who work government jobs with clearances and they all act so goddamn smug about it, I've wanted to punch them in the mouth.
I think they were all quite happy nobody knew the power they had; they were "getting away with it." Now that we do, they're demoralized because they don't get to lord over us with the mystique. Plus, robbing the cookie jar isn't fun when everyone sees you do it.
Fuck 'em. I hope the place becomes a miserable place to work and the whole thing falls apart at the seams.
Please help metamoderate.
Best of luck surviving the plane crash caused by the pilot getting food poisoning while flying through a toxic industrial waste cloud when attempting an emergency landing on an unmaintained Eisenhower-era highway overpass after losing contact with air traffic control because Verizon decided to take over the frequency band.
I'm sure that's what the framers intended.
"vilification ... sadly"
Why sadly? Seriously -- here you have a group of people doing everything in their power to undermine core American values in very salient and massive ways. They fucking deserve to be vilified. Because they're traitorous fucking villains.
What changed under Obama? Nothing Good
Posting anonymously for obvious reasons...
They knew what was going on. My grad school was funded by the NSA. I never had clearance, but did visit Ft. Meade a few times. Based in the public stuff they were funding (*cough* GNU Radio *cough*) and the types of projects we did, it was very obvious what the applications were.
Everyone I met there was very smart (way smarter than me). If I could figure it out 8 years ago from some funding and vague conversations, they definitely could.
I turned down the offer to work there for ethical reasons. Too creepy even without knowing everything.
Don't worry, in the next scene, our heroes find a doctor in the back, along with a jive lady, and another pilot with a drinking problem.
This isn't going to be a popular opinion, but I think following orders is a valid defense.
It wasn't real popular with the judges at Nuremberg, either. Just so you know.
Il n'y a pas de Planet B.
The reason the NSA metastasized into what it is now is because that is what the American people wanted. After (and before) the 9/11 attacks they wanted government protection from the big bad world. Why did the Bush administration go nuts after 9/11 (Gitmo, rendition, etc)? -- it's because they knew they could stand the heat from the pundits and legal beagles who said a lot of it was illegal. And they also knew that the Bush administration would not have survived another 9/11 style attack. Same for the Obama administration -- they cannot tolerate a big attack on Americans as long as the Republicans will claim it was "lax vigilance" which allowed it (look at the insanity over Benghazi and that was only four Americans in a foreign country!). So the rational actor in that case errs all the way on the side of preventing another terrorist incident no matter the legality or cost to civil liberties. Same for the NSA now -- if the US suffers another big attack then there will be 290 million (out of about 300 million) Americans blaming the NSA for letting it happen and demanding that the NSA do "whatever it takes" to prevent another. This is irregardless of the facts of the situation. That is just the way it is. You won't fix that anytime soon. As time goes on without an attack we can get some more oversight of the NSA, perhaps, but in the big scheme of things it's not going to change until the American public gets a lot better at risk estimation, which they never will. If you don't like it -- tough, and no place else in the world is any better -- the foreigners don't have any better governments and for most of them it's a lot worse. Life isn't fair -- you were born to live in the 21st century, not the paradise of liberty which the 18th and 19th centuries were (yeah right!); or you can try living completely off the grid like it was the 18th century, for a fun time. Or you can accept that (in the Democracies, at least) the jack booted thugs aren't likely to kick your door in tonight and try to get policies changed over time, through voting and persuasion of others in the public and your government.
...won't visit the NSA to show support, because doing so would show acknowledgement that he is in charge of their actions. He prefers to remain at a distance, so he can politically separate himself from their actions to the maximum extent possible. Judging how few comments there are here blaming him for their activities, it appears to be working well.
'The agency, from top to bottom, leadership to rank and file, feels that it is had no support from the White House even though it's been carrying out publicly approved intelligence missions,' says Joel Brenner, NSA inspector general from 2002 to 2006.
Which "public" was that? Spying on foreign leaders, collecting unlimited data on US citizens, tracking cell phones...I think I'm seeing the problem. They know they're doing wrong and still feel justified. Now they want the president to make them feel better.
It's like the phone companies wanting retroactive immunity for cooperating with spying. They want Congress to pass new laws making everything they've done legal.
Nevermind all the spying didn't stop the Boston Marathon bombers or the Sandy Hook shooter or any of the more common threats.
Maybe they deserve to feel bad.
That's our life, the big wheel of shit. - The Fat Man, Blue Tango Salvage
I have gotten fines from the IRS, and it was always because I missed something and it was my fault. Sometimes it took a little work to figure out what the problem was, and even called them up when I was trying to figure it out. The people were never rude and always helpful.
Was I happy with it? No, who really wants to admit they made a mistake and have to pay to fix it? No many people, but you know what? I sucked up my ego, which all it really was, and admitted my mistake and paid up.
For all the scorn people heap on the IRS, they do a very good job, especially considering all the crap they get from anyone who seems them as an easy dog to kick.
Here's my "Are You Fucking Kidding Me"(tm) list.
1) Employees at the agency that is chartered to be the most secretive agency the US government has is telling the press they aren't happy?
2) They want the President to visit because they've been doing their jobs, and it made the news?
3) They want a pitty party because a contractor has been leaking information? The fucking NSA? Let a contractor leak anything? They let a contractor walk away with classified documents? How is he still alive?
4) Are they not being paid for their jobs?
5) Were they under some insane misconception about what their job would be when they were hired? It's one of the largest intelligence agencies in the world. What did they think they were getting hired for? Play solitaire and collect paychecks?
This story makes me think that next week we'll be hearing about massive layoffs, and new openings with the agency.
Serious? Seriousness is well above my pay grade.
One - I'm now downloading Good Will Hunting to watch it all over again.
Two - If you are smart and have a conscience you won't work for them in the first place.
Three - If you are lacking the first quality in number two, you will and we end up where we are.
The employees of the NSA deserve to be heckled. Maybe they will start to challenge their superiors, quit, make different decisions if they are in charge, or listen to that little voice in their head that says this is wrong and try to help like Snowden did.
Before 1913 the Federal government collected duties on good entering the country and tariffs on certain goods. However the amount of collected is very small and easily avoided by any person choosing to vote against Federal policies by not buying dutiable goods.
The nation had few taxes in its early history. From 1791 to 1802, the United States government was supported by internal taxes on distilled spirits, carriages, refined sugar, tobacco and snuff, property sold at auction, corporate bonds, and slaves. The high cost of the War of 1812 brought about the nation's first sales taxes on gold, silverware, jewelry, and watches. In 1817, however, Congress did away with all internal taxes, relying on tariffs on imported goods to provide sufficient funds for running the government.
Read more: History of the Income Tax in the United States | Infoplease.com http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0005921.html#ixzz2mwDj6t23
Under some circumstances the Federal income was collected from the individual States, such as:
The direct tax of 1798 imposed taxes on “lands, houses and slaves” totaling $2 million over the next two years, apportioned to states in amounts according to representation (as measured in the U.S. census).
http://www.thenewamerican.com/culture/history/item/14268-before-the-income-tax
States placed taxes on real property some of this money was apportioned to the Federal government based on the population of State, hence the need for the census. Along with the money collected each State was represented by two seats in the US Senate. It is important to note that before 1913 these Senators were chosen by each States elected body not necessarily by general election. While congress has always been directly elected and always the origination of bills of appropriations.
The people are taxed and in return the people ask for stuff. The State which took the money with difficulty attempts to limit spending via the Senate which can only approve or deny an appropriations bill. Hence money collected with difficultly and spent with difficultly designed to naturally limit unnecessary spending.
Before 1913 taxes on Income (or any direct tax) was seen as unconstitutional because the Founders felt it was important for people to have a way to protest a government in the only meaningful way: deprive the government of income.
In addition the Founders were distinctly against a privately held central bank such as the Federal Reserve which was also approved in 1913. This has additionally provided the Federal government an essentially unlimited supply of money with which it can enforce any position without any realistic opposition of the individual States.
Post 1913 we can clearly see what happens in a democracy with the effective restraint on spending removed.
Or should I say poor little treasonous babies. You actively participate in the desecration of the Constitution and then you feel all pouty that America is unhappy when it finds out?
Guess what, bitches, America doesn't need your uber algorithms, satellites, or any other fancy toys. You (the intel community) has demonstrated that you can't handle HUMAN INT (see: 9/11, boston bombers) so stop claiming you need this geek starship of SIGINT to protect us little lambs. Losers.
Good. You want a new sense of "morale"???
Fucking quit.
All of you. En masse. Find a real job, and move on.
Now if only we could get people to treat the TSA the same. At least I, for one, can take personal credit for a public shunning... But no one else seems to care.
Baaaaah!
I made a $3 mistake on my income tax return (Scottrade updated my tax info *after* I'd sent mine in, but they didn't notify me).
The IRS apparently took that as an excuse to torment me for most of a year. I got audit for the above $3 claim, as well as for "falsely claiming that I was due a tax deduction for student loans" (I took some night classes at the local community college). Apparently that $3 claim was justification for a fishing expedition.
First time, I take an entire day off to redo my taxes, discover that I have made a $3 error, cut them a $3 check, and sent them the 1098-T from the college to prove that the other claim is false.
Couple months later, they send me the exact same form. I again take another day off to recompute my taxes (I was correct), and again send them the same 1098-T info that they requested.
Third time, I told that I will be taken to court because I haven't provided the proof required. I take yet *another* day off to go to the local IRS office in Nashville and sit down with a lady to explain that I've already sent the 1098-T form in.
She logs into her computer, turns it toward me, and starts hitting page-down. "We don't have any record that you sent it in." I see it flash by and tap on the screen. "Yes you did, it was just on your screen a second ago." She pages up and stares at it in silence for 2-3 minutes. "Well I just don't understand that."
Great. So now that the IRS knows I've sent it in, we can put this whole misunderstanding behind us, right? "I'm sorry, but there's nothing I can do to fix this". My choices were pay it off, send an appeal to the IRS, and hope that suddenly grow a brain after the **4th** time, or go to tax court, lose yet another day's salary, and hope the judge was smarter than the IRS. So I paid.
The IRS's excruciatingly, devastatingly, mind-numbing incompetence cost me roughly $1000 in lost salary for a $3 difference. And the whole collective IRS can go pleasure itself with a saguaro cactus.
"Today I mourn for two things: for the fate of those millions of people who were murdered by the National Socialists. And for the girl Traudl Humps who lacked the self-confidence and good sense to speak out against them at the right moment." -- Gertraud "Traudl Humps" Junge, Adolf Hitler's secretary.
She was pardoned at the Nureberg trials. "She was young, she couldn't have known any better. She was only guilty of consistently going along with what her society demanded. She was not the one who had brought death to Europe and the East, and in fact was ignorant of the Nazi's crimes as they were being committed."
Later in life, she said:
"It was no excuse to be young. It would have been possible to find things out."
http://www.viruscomix.com/page474.html
Ignorance among the rank-and-file is not an excuse. Collaborating with evil is evil.
Not a sentence!
You really want unemployment rates to soar?
Essentially, a lot of those "public workers" are nothing but hidden unemployed.
We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
you need to sabotage your workplace
do it discreetly, covertly, however you see fit
because your employer defiles founding principles this country was founded on
and you don't want to think of yourself as a vile goon working for a paycheck, right?
you have principles and you love your country, right?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Writ_of_assistance#In_colonial_America
intellectual property law is philosophically incoherent. it is your moral duty to ignore it or sabotage it
To those at the NSA who are just awakening to the new reality that people are, now and forevermore, going to hate you whether you deserve it or not, I can only say "Welcome to my world. Learn to deal with it. It'll drive you nuts if you don't."
Oh boy, where do I begin? Prior to 1990, the IRS was a terrorist organization with virtually unlimited power. Senators and upper level administration folks were terrified of you. You guys would seize millions of dollars of property, lock all bank accounts, and freeze all assets over trivial amounts of disputed payments which left the victim no chance to defend themselves. Fuck you if you think you did not deserve the hatred you received. You were plain fucking evil. I saw the trail of devastation and shattered lives you guys left behind.
"Someone needs to talk to the tree of liberty about its ghoulish drinking problem." by ohnocitizen
I don't think painting them all the same color is fair.
They insist that we do so.
Until they open up about who does what, we have no recourse but to treat them as a black box.
There are a whole raft of US Judges that need to be prosecuted as well. We can start there. Those are the people who gave the NSA and CIA cover to do all this stuff.
Sig Battery depleted. Reverting to safe mode.
I don't think those people need to commit suicide. I don't feel any sympathy for them at all if they feel like crap.
However, they could start to redeem themselves in my eyes if they PUBLICLY revealed all the wrong-doing. And made it a point to get our public officials to fix the agency and legal system, i.e. courts, that permitted this b.s. in the first place. That'd be a start.
"To stop the terrorists."
The price I paid for my sweet government gig was being paid less than half what comparable private sector employees earned. I once consulted with a group of 16 employees who worked a project for 3 years that netted the government just over $16B.
That's billion, with a "b".
Their average pay was about $60K/year plus benefits. They got no bonus for bringing in that staggering sum. That sort of treatment was normal.
My sweet gig will only pay off if I live for quite a while more, since the only advantage I have over the private sector is that I earned a small pension and decent health insurance, both of which are unlikely to be threatened because my employer goes into bankruptcy.
I had to spend 30 years behind the earnings curve to get where I am now; I wouldn't call that a "sweet gig". It was a trade-off I made with my eyes open and if I live another 20 years, it'll turn out to have been the right choice, but please disabuse yourself of the notion that there are more than a small handful of federal jobs that can accurately be termed "sweet gigs." They just don't exist.
The story of your friend needs some more details.
If a final report from a Tax Compliance Officer (the people who audit you in the office) is for a net tax increase and the taxpayer doesn't wait around, it will be mailed out for a signature. Thus, I doubt your friend; his story is very low-percentage.
Of course, there is that low percentage. If the amount is low enough, the TCO and their manager may decide to close the case with no further work (called a "Survey"; there are several sub-types) which means that they just dump it back into the central files because the cost of processing the new assessment is more than the IRS could collect.
That power-tripping you referred to? People who screw up on their taxes and get a lecture along the lines of "You did this wrong. Please don't do it again." will frequently perceive that as a power trip. The IRS looks at it as an educational opportunity.
I suspect the real truth of this story is somewhere in between.
...even though it's been carrying out publicly approved intelligence missions...
The "public approval" has come though a representative government that has single digit approval ratings. That were gerrymandered into being allowed to keep office. That most progressives have railed against the President for his failures to keep even some of his basic promises, even his 2nd term promises, about transparency and trying to respect civil liberties.
Ok...deep breaths.
If you continue to lie to us we will call you out on that. What you just said is a lie. It might be not a direct lie but it is a lie of omission. Stop fucking doing that. I could start talking about how your director should be in federal prison for doing exactly that but I'm going to stop right now.
Really, I know what I'm doing...Ohhhh, look at the shiny buttons!
I spent several years as a Revenue Officer. It was within my authority to recommend that assessed taxes be temporarily or permanently forgiven. I made exactly those sorts of recommendations hundreds of times. I can't remember a single time when my recommendation was not accepted.
I am most proud of my work with folks with HIV/AIDS. I was an Officer back in the '80s when it was a death sentence. No one reaching the end of their life in that situation deserves to have to deal with the IRS. I was personally responsible for outreach to the community and case processing for AIDS patients who owed money. I cannot remember the number of times I sat next to the bed of a dying man for hours, slowly asking all the questions needed to fill out a few forms so that I could make the letters from the IRS stop.
I can't share all the times I "ignored the programs and policies" because I didn't have to. There are programs and policies to help people who can't pay. No one goes to jail for not paying. And no one needs to feel that they're oppressed. All my taxpayers had to do was talk to me. It was my job to help them get past their problems, not make their lives miserable.
Should I tell you about the best Revenue Officer I ever knew who got cookies and Christmas presents every year from delinquent taxpayers that she had guided back to solvency? Should I tell you about the lady who pretty much hugged that RO to unconsciousness after the RO seized and sold her business because, for the first time in decades, the emotional burden of trying to make a profit from a family business that should have been shuttered long ago was lifted from her?
No Revenue Officer worth their salt just goes along with everything they are told to do. They are hired for their judgement and they're not shy about telling management when a directive "just isn't right." I've seen it more times than I can remember.
They wont be hurting for work, since they have proven themselves by getting hired by the NSA - not an easy task. Those people would provide another entity a competitive advantage for their knowledge and skillsets. They wouldnt have to bother with people that would discount competence just for being associated with the government.
The Snowden types, on the other hand, would have trouble due to their recorded disloyalty to their employer overriding any technical competence. They would represent a risk to an employer that is exemplified by action at an employer, not presumption by association with the NSA.
I wouldnt discount someone that worked at the NSA, but would welcome them.
Twitter supports and protects racists - by smearing their critics with the "Hate Speech" label.
> If you are paying attention you will note that the NSA does not engage in that sort of oppression, at all.
What made you think I implied any of that? And I did not need a tutorial on Stasi.
I was answering a specific post about how the said group members kept morale.
No one serious would suggest that NSA is Gestapo or Stasi yet, except maybe as a hyperbole or as a slippery slope argument.
But they did do things they should not have. And they will manage to rationalize to themselves... because they are human beings. We all like to tell ourselves that we are moral beings... even as the world would judge us otherwise.
Another problem with your argument is that it is inline with the common argument made against Snowden. It goes like this: Since Snowden is not like Mandela or King, and did not want to go to jail, he is not a hero or patriot. Your implicit argument is on the other end of this spectrum: Since NSA is not quite up to Gestapo or Stasi level, what they did was not evil or isn't something they ought to be ashamed of.
> Facts aren't advocacy. - If you punish ordinary opposing views in debate you aren't committed to free speech.
If you mean mere down modding... that is free speech... ergo, you seem to want free speech for yourself, but not for others. That isn't really free speech.
If you don't like the working conditions, then change jobs like the rest of us have to. Why would a visit from Obama change anything (pretty strange reason for improved job satisfaction anyway)? As an NSA employee, you should already know how the US feels about the concerns of it's military branches. Staying in a job you dislike does not make you like it more.
Join the Slashcott! Feb 10 thru Feb 17!
Zero sympathy. Sorry. You picked spying on your countrymen as a job. We all have known what's going on. Now, it's time to live with the consequences.
Sucks, don't it?
One day I feel I'm ahead of the wheel / the next it's rolling over me / I can get back on / I can get back on
Freedom isn't free. It costs lives and money. For a country to succeed it must be tolerant of new ideas, thus America has embraced both capitalistic and socialist methodologies and leveraged them to their benefit. When Americans consider the costs of the NSA relative to the lives they supposedly save, it is hard to agree to continue the program considering the threat. Falling down in the bathtub is a far greater threat than the "Terrorist Threat". More lives can be saved by giving away bathtub traction mats than by sponsoring a nation wide spying initiative. As a capitalist I would have to be a fool to spend so much taxes and give up so much privacy for such a little benefit.
Security researchers have a name for things like the NSA: Single Point of Failure. If a contract employee like Snowden can get such data, then state sponsored enemy spies have likely infiltrated too. Thus, the NSA is actually a threat to national security -- They are helping our enemies far more than they help us. The NSA is now deserved of the term used for other invasive, expensive and yet ineffective "protection" schemes: Security Theater. See also: DHS.
Terrorists are a pathetic threat; It takes more bravery to bathe than to stand in solidarity against such attackers as the Boston Marathon Bombers -- An event whereby the NSA failed our nation and proved how worthless they are. Should we outlaw pressure cookers? No: Six times more people die every year from the Flu than a 9/11 scale attack. Every year Cars and Cheesburgers kill Four Hundred times more people than a 9/11 scale attack. Yet, if anyone tried to take away our freedom to drive fast cars or cook and eat fast food we will fight them off, not embrace the "protections"! On 9/11 the terrorists were reminded by the honorable passengers of Flight 93: Attack Americans and Americans fight back. The NSA would do well to remember this: We do not need or want their expensive and invasive erosion of privacy in the name of protection.
To the NSA agents who read statements such as mine as a part of their jobs, and decide whether they will use our porn preferences to discredit the "radicals" who speak out against you: It's no wonder your morale is so low. Your official stance is to lie to Congress. No one can now believe anything you say. No evidence you have ever collected can now be trusted. Your secrecy has become dishonesty and made your job worthless and without honor. How can you even look at yourself in the mirror? Don't like the low morale? Quit your un-American and unconstitutional job. Spineless treasonous traitors deserve far worse than just having low morale.
During the first year of employment, yes. By then, management dumps the hiring mistakes. Yes, some people develop problems later, unfortunately.
Yes to both. Why on earth would you think the two questions are in opposition? Firing a civil service employee simply requires telling them what they're doing wrong, giving them a chance to fix it, and then firing them.
Most bosses are too busy dealing with underfunded programs to take time to fire people since the process is required to be fair and fairness takes time. However, it was *common* for underperforming employees to be moved to less-demanding jobs.
The federal government is not a for-profit business, so no. However, I spent a great deal of time as a Revenue Officer. We used to joke that if we were compensated based on our profitability to the government the same way people are compensated in private industry, we'd all have 1000-square-foot offices, 3 assistants, and 7-figure incomes.
Me? 100% of the time. I got sent to speak to conferences and teach seminars specifically because the degree to which I loved my job was both obvious and infectious. (Well, I'd say that was true for all but a half-dozen years of my career. There are bad times in all jobs.)
I got customer service kudos more numerous than I can remember, from every customer I served. Hell, when I first started as a low-level paper-processing clerk, I got a plaque from a group of Revenue Agents just because I actually paid attention to making them feel welcome as I processed a few boxes of paper that they needed expedited. (It was a big-dollar case and they were running up against statutory deadlines.)
I once lived in a hotel, training new people, for 7 months. An exec with the hotel tried to recruit me. He said my aptitude for customer service was "off the charts".
OK, I think on this question I'm a bit of an exception. I take your point.
Lemme throw you a bone: I have observed shit that drives me crazy. My pet peeve: If you're on break and can't serve the customers, get the hell out of their sight!
No and no.
Actually, yes. There are political animals out there who translate their irrational hatred of all federal employees into various actions, including proposals to screw over our pensions. Some of those political animals are in Congress. Some troll message boards.
We all make those decisions based on our own hierarchy of needs. I signed on knowing I'd get 3 decades of substandard pay in exchange for reasonable work rules and benefits.
If you prefer to work in a crappier environment under pressures that have an outsized impact on your happiness while being paid more - that's your choice.
Almost no one has a "sweet gig." I worked for a living. So do you. We may be different but we're more similar than you might think.