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Apple Pushes Developers To iOS 7
Hugh Pickens DOT Com writes "Chuong Nguyen reports that Apple is forcing developers to adopt iOS 7's visual UI for their apps, and has advised iOS developers that all apps submitted after February 1, 2014 must be optimized for iOS 7 and built using Xcode 5 ... 'It's likely that Apple is more anxious than ever for developers to update their apps to fit in visually and mechanically with iOS 7, as it's the largest change in the history of Apple's mobile software,' says Matthew Panzarino. 'iOS 7 introduced a much more complex physical language while stripping out many of the visual cues that developers had relied on to instruct users. For better or worse, this has created a new aesthetic that many un-updated apps did not reflect.' Most app developers have been building apps optimized towards iOS 7 since Apple's World Wide Developer Conference in June 2013. Apple has been on a push over the past couple of years to encourage developers to support the latest editions of its OS faster than ever. To do this, it's made a habit of pointing out the adoption rates of new versions of iOS, which are extremely high. Nearly every event mentions iOS 7 adoption, which now tops 76% of all iOS users, and Apple publishes current statistics. In order to optimize apps for the new operating system, they must be built with the latest version of Xcode 5 which includes 64-bit support and access to new features like backgrounding APIs."
Cause I haven't been keeping tabs and I'd hate to miss the JB window for iOS7. And I'm not giving up 6 until the JB is ready.
Is it just my observation, or are there way too many stupid people in the world?
Of course apps should work on iOS7. They can still run on older iOSs.
As the install base is approaching 80%, it would also be terrible ignorant not to support iOS7.
Compliance is Exciting and Mandatory! Thank you in advance for your cooperation.
Apple is king of controlling support and development costs by using bullying and limiting strategies both for their customers and the developers.
I also noticed that Linux's market share has recently taken a major tumble down. I guess it's mostly dying outside of Android and some other appliances. We'll see where iOS stands next year.
ciao.
Like what? I don't have an iOS device, so I'm not really sure what they're talking about.
x86, oh yes, I'm pro.
Everyone I know dumped their iStuff on ebay and switched to Android after the ios7 debacle.
It's supposed to say "Apple pushes developers to Android"
By the way, it's around 6:1 now for android to apple phone counts.
Dear Apple,
Two days ago I bought my wife an iPad Air for Christmas. Yesterday I found a most excellent app that can handle transfer *and editing* of ODT back and forth between her main laptop and the iPad. When actually doing the document, it looks like a clunky version of OpenOffice ('cause that's what it is based on.) The interface is fugly on an iPad and in no way matches your interface specs. But my wife's comment, "This is FAMILIAR. Thank you for finding the solution for me to transfer and edit my stories."
Please think twice before you break anything that ain't broke yet.
Thank you.
Fuck Apple. I bit the bullet on smartphones with a 4S. I was very pleased with it. The new OS is about as appetizing as being smacked about the face with a rotting donkey dick. It's slow, clunky, and changes everything for the sake of change. It's terrible.
"So if you don't like it, don't buy it," says the fanboi.
Hey, I bought what I did like! Apple's changing it on me. If I like a brand of shoes there's always the chance they'll change the line when I need a new pair. Thems the breaks in life. But not even Nike is going to go to my house and fuck up a pair I already own. Apple will. I'm not updating this phone, period. If none of the new apps will work with it, I'm done buying apps.
Sadly, I don't like Android much either. Windows Mobile can choke on my fuck. IOS5 was the last really good mobile OS. If there's ever another good one, I don't think it's coming from Apple.
Kwisatz Haderach
Sell the spice to CHOAM
This Mahdi took Shaddam's Throne
Wait...so iOS7 copied the Charms bar from Windows. That truly is rich.
And to test 64 bit you will need a 64 bit device. lol.
Isn't it true for all technology today? It's called progress, even if you don't like it or agree with it.
I hate how this is breaking support for iOS 5.1.1 only devices like the iPad 1. My mother-in-law is not technically inclined, but uses an iPad1 for banking and watching TV shows. Both apps have broken support for iOS5 in favor of iOS7. This makes a device she paid good money for only a couple years ago a paperweight. My Motorola Xoom I bought at roughly the same time is going strong and running a very current version of Android. This kind of thing is just a normal function of technology every 4-5 years+, but not 2 or less. Unfortunately for Apple her next device will be an Android. Cheaper and obsolescence proof for much longer.
Like new, runs outdated OS and cant run any new apps.. Only 2 years old. I guess I can use it for pr0n
The problem is, however, that an increasing number of applications, will not work on previous IOS versions... even if there is nothing particular about the newer IOS version that the application actually requres. The only way to prevent this is to target the application for the oldest IOS version you want to support at build time. But doing so would not optimize the app for more recent IOS versions.
File under 'M' for 'Manic ranting'
Normal development cycle. What is the story here? That iOS 7 is successful?
The only thing worse than a Democrat is a Republican.
I've been a programmer for decades and I write my share of mobile apps. I write in many languages and for many platforms so I'm not married to any particular target system. I am in the middle of a project and have some beta testers running an iOS app with OTA updates using a OTA provisioning profile which is a fancy way of saying users can update apps over the air without needing to use the app store. My provision profile, a digital signature like thing, expired in November and the users needed a new version of the app to keep testing. I opened up my MacBook and it informed me that XCode 5 was available and "would I like to update it?" Sure, why not? Well, I can tell you why not. XCode 5 made software written in previous version not work! Significant rewrites needed to be done in order to do any changes and there was no option to compile for previous version. In short, an errant software update created two weeks work. Nowhere in there notice to update did it say clicking YES will cost you $10,000. This is screwed up! Backward compatibility should be available for development. If they want to no longer accept iOS6 apps into the store, that is fine. I should be able to compile old code without error by selecting the correct target device. This sort of thing actually makes their previous devices worthless because if they cannot run iOS7 then no new software can be written for them again. It is a such a waste. I am pissed at these guys.
I am able to take a previous compiled binary and sign it with a new profile so that the users are still able to work, but now even the most minor change requires a rewrite. These guys seem to forget who made them rich. It was devs making awesome software which made people buy their products in huge numbers. iTunes integration will only sell so many phones.
No, it's not true. I can boot up my computer that runs Windows XP, or my other computer that runs NetBSD 4.0, and it doesn't automatically and forcibly upgrade the OS to a version that doesn't run well on the old hardware.
It's called a forced upgrade to drive hardware sales, you shill.
Yes, I know I'm posting this one on apple.slashdot.org so it's you apple freaks' turf and I'm being rude.
The ipad one has an older processor and is pretty short on ram. It'll be a real stretch to make iOS7 work on that device.
The 1st generation iPad and the 3rd generation iPod touch are stuck at iOS 5.1.
The 3rd generation iPhone and the 4th generation iPod touch are stuck at iOS 6.1.
The 4th generation iPhone, 5th generation iPad touch, 2nd generation iPad and newer devices are current and running iOS 7.
The short story is that iOS 5 required at least 256 MB and iOS 6 required at least 512 MB.
If some future version of iOS requires at least 1024 MB then the cutoff will be at 5th generation iPhone, 3rd generation iPad and 2nd generation iPad mini. No current iPod touch would make the cut.
So what about app developers that do not use Xcode 5? What if they use Mono or Embarcadero's Delphi or C++? Is this there way of killing of developer system competitors?
Agree 100% !
See my post up: http://apple.slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=4572769&cid=45728379
Wow ableist, homophobic and wrong all in the same post. Win a slow hand clap!
If developers are forced to update their apps, then owners of old iPad, Pod, and Phones will be forced to upgrade as well. My Ipads have been left at ios5 with no upgrade path available. Eventually, I will no longer be able to buy apps in the app store.
Truth: If it's not one thing, it's another
Well Windows 8.1 seems snappier than Windows 7 was. Maybe the work they did in trying to shoehorn it onto a tablet actually was useful for PC users in some way.
The problem is, however, that an increasing number of applications, will not work on previous IOS versions... even if there is nothing particular about the newer IOS version that the application actually requres. The only way to prevent this is to target the application for the oldest IOS version you want to support at build time. But doing so would not optimize the app for more recent IOS versions.
Your app can have both an iOS 6 look and an iOS 7 look depending on which it finds itself running on. Much of this is done automatically by iOS, some version specific coding may be required. This of course requires using the latest development tools.
Plus Apple is letting people with older versions of iOS get the last compatible version of an app if the current version is incompatible. So if you have a stable iOS 6 version and make an iOS 7 update then iOS 6 users can still get that older IOS 6 version.
What are you talking about?
Neither iOS or MacOS updates major versions automatically or forcibly.
Not even small ones for that sake. Auto app update was just recently introduced.
While constantly being bombarded to install them
On iOS you just get one alert, after that a badge on settings. How is that "bombarded"?
"There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
There's an old story (and a song, as I recall) about an old woman who finds a sick snake and takes it home to nurse it to health. After the snake is healthy, it bites her and when she complains tells her to stop complaining because she knew what it was when she took it in. Same goes for Apple devs in the current situation. This is SOP for Apple and has been for years. If you're going to develop apps for Apple machines you gotta be ready with your snake-bit kit at all times.
My company released and maintains mobile apps to compliment the services we offer. Our owner is a sales and marketing guy who prizes world-class customer service over EVERYTHING else. Yes, we butt heads on occasion for the usual reasons, but he's a reasonable guy. We have a healthy relationship and I have learned a lot about treating your customers right since I started working here.
With excellent customer service in mind, it remains our intention to support EVERY customer. It is not my decision as to which mobile device a customer owns or which version of the operating system they run. Many customers have had such difficulty upgrading, including loss of settings and data, that they refuse to upgrade at all. The point is, our app supports every Apple device and every version of iOS back to 4.0 (the state it was in when I inherited this project). Our app runs just fine on all of them.
At some point in the future, once all our customers have upgraded and nobody uses an older version of iOS anymore, THEN I'll consider dropping support for the older iOS version. However, I likely won't because people buy used equipment from the likes of craigslist and eBay all the time. We routinely get new customers who use old equipment and old versions of iOS. In order to extend excellent customer service, I MUST FULLY SUPPORT EVERY DAMNED ONE OF THEM.
Apple needs to understand that it is not their decision, just like it is not mine, when customers decide to buy new equipment or upgrade to a new version of iOS. I frankly don't care what these people do, except that if they decide to install and run my app, I'm going to support them as best I can.
I'm here to provide value and quality to my customers. I'm not here to be a tool for Apple to step on in order to make everyone buy new equipment at a rate that's acceptable to them. It's Ok for Apple to sell their goods based on their features and the value they offer. There is NO NEED AT ALL to engage in this campaign of forced upgrades. This smacks of the game studios/video card manufacturers/DirectX debacle.
Forced upgrades are stupid. Backwards compatibility is divine and demonstrates to your customers they spent their money well. THAT is how you get repeat business and increase your bottom line.
Please don't argue in support of Apple that selling their goods based on their merits, features, and value isn't working. If their sales are down, then perhaps they should offer more than new case colors and a cheap looking UI. While we're making suggestions, perhaps they should stop presenting themselves to the public as a religion now that their savior has died.
Whatever your deal, Apple, I humbly suggest that you stop making enemies of the developers who are creating new content for your sandbox and new reasons to buy your devices. STOP PUNISHING US FOR YOUR OWN FAILURES.
Yes, Apple, you have made an enemy out of me. You can go fuck yourselves. Maybe a "Inside the Donut" porn series might increase your bottom line.
Idjit. iOS 7 runs fine on my ? 2 year old 4S. You have to turn off a bit of bling (Apple really should do that on anything but the newest machines). But runs perfectly fine. Some of the UI decisions are rather, well, odd. But that happens with every vendor (and I'm looking at YOU Microsoft-and-the-interface-formally-known-as-Metro).
Faster! Faster! Faster would be better!
Apple is not saying, do not support iOS6. They are just saying "make sure the UI is built for iOS7". It's not even that hard to do since iOS6 supports the more advanced layout engine that Apple wants you to use for iOS7.
I would say 90% of applications will still support iOS6 at least until iOS8 ships, then a year or so after that you amy see iOS6 support decline.
"There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
Forces! Pushes! Yeah, I guess the less accurate 'requires' is just so much less attention-getting.
The only way to prevent this is to target the application for the oldest IOS version you want to support at build time.
That's not at all true. You can easily support iOS6, while optimizing for iOS7 and just drop a few aspects that iOS6 cannot support.
The main difference is in adopting the newer approach to navigation that iOS7 brings. That would still work on iOS6, it just is somewhat different than the way developers used to do things.
"There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
I am also an iOS developer, and have to say - what the hell are you talking about?
Out of about 20 different projects I have worked on since XCode 5 came out, NONE of them needed a re-write because of anything XCode 5 did. A few needed somewhat updated build settings. All of these projects existed long before XCode 5.
I think what you are talking about was the BETA version of XCode 5 automatically converting any XIB it opened to use AutoLayout. That was indeed quite horrible, fortunately it happened on only one of my projects. Apple fixed it around beta 5 or 6, and the production version of XCode does not do this.
So again, I don't see what you could possibly be doing that would require a code re-write just because you are moving to XCode 5. All of the same code still works. Hell, you can even keep your project files in the XCode 4 format for as long as you like!
"There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
They just need to support the same things XCode 5 does (like 64 bit ARM). Most of them use XCode 5 under the hood for final builds I believe, so I'm not sure it's even an issue.
"There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
Summary is an over simplification based reading T.F.Email from Apple. Nothing that Apple is doing at this time will prevent developers from targeting older devices than they previously have been able to target. I *think* the current oldest supportable iOS given their requirements is iOS 5, but I haven’t verified that with the latest Xcode build.
All apps published after the cut-off date must be built with the latest version of Xcode and must have imagery & design that will support iOS 7 devices’ look & feel. They must use iOS 7 as the Base SDK, but they are not required to use iOS 7 as the Minimum Deployment Target. The minimum target supported by latest Xcode is the one thing I’m uncertain of right now, but I’m pretty sure it’s iOS 5.something.
The two settings on your project (Base SDK and Min. Deployment Target (MDT)) control the newest and oldest features you have access to, respectively. An app with a newer Base SDK will still run on an older device (down to MDT). Any features added to an iOS release that’s newer that the MDT will be weak linked. The developer can check at runtime whether particular functionality is available. Unavailable classes will return nil when you try to access them (which you can ignore or check for depending on your needs), and newer methods will be unavailable on old devices (so check with respondsToSelector: or similar before calling). Additionally, when running on an older device, you keep the old device look & feel. You don’t suddenly start looking like iOS 7 on an older device.
As for what developers must do to comply with the new requirements:
1) Make sure all artwork, screen layouts, etc. are available in the higher resolution / size needed by the larger iPhone 5+ screens & Retina iPads.
2) If changing the MDT, update any code referencing methods/classes that were deprecated in between whatever the previous MDT was and the new one. Any methods/classes deprecated between the new MDT and the Base SDK version can stay unchanged,since in many cases, the newer method/classes wouldn’t be available at runtime on the older devices.
Apple has definitely cut off older devices in the past. It’s currently Very Difficult to target 3GS or earlier devices as the current Xcode doesn’t generate ARMv6 code any more. It’s still possible to make that work if you’re very dedicated by building an ARMv6 binary with an older Xcode, ARMv7(s) with the latest Xcode, and manually merging the binaries with the `lipo` command. Anecdotal evidence suggests Apple will still approve such binaries, though I’ve not personally tried to submit one.
There is a 64-bit simulator for iOS that you run from XCode 5.
"There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
I have a 4, how do you turn off the "bling"? my phone is really slow with 7... :(
MABASPLOOM!
Other stats (like browsing or iOS application analytics) bear out the fact that the Apple figures are INSTALLED numbers. They are ADOPTION rates, not "possible to adopt" rates.
"There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
I was an iPad early adopter. It won't upgrade beyond iOS 5.x. I'm not upset about that. I understand that newer versions of an OS have more advanced hardware requirements.
My problem is the issues it causes with the walled garden of apps:
All apps are now going to require iOS7 to be installed. If I have iOS5.x I can't upgrade. This isn't the problem.
The problem is, if my iPad needs to get wiped for whatever reason, I cannot reinstall older versions of the apps from the Apple Store, since they will not allow download of old versions of apps, even if the newer version is not compatible with my hardware.
Help! I'm a slashdot refugee.
That old computer that I have running as a file server with windows 2008 on it is not being forced to upgrade to 2012... Or that old PC my mom uses to search the internet for deals on amazon.com which works perfectly fine for her and her small needs is not being forced to Windows 8 which would kill her little machine. Or if I was perfectly happy with that version of Ubuntu I wasn't forced to upgrade to the latest.
Also all OTA updates on Android are optional. You are never forced to upgrade.
Now the market may drive upgrades. There may be particular features or applications that you want that only work on a certain level, but as far as I know OS upgrades just to drive you to their vision of user experience regardless if you like it or not is not very common...
Next up. Hell freezes over.
As I type this, it's 27 F (-3 C) in Hell. So yes, frozen.
Microsoft goes open source.
First, Microsoft Public License. Second, Microsoft's newly acquired mobile phone division is rumored to be building an Android device for those market segments that aren't quite ready for Windows Phone.
iOS 6 runs on the iPod touch 4 and iOS 7 doesn't. Apple introduced iOS 7 less than a year after it stopped selling the iPod touch 4, so people who bought the iPod touch 4 the day before the iPod touch 5 came out got less than a year of major version upgrades.
same here, iP4.... sloooow since 7. I've tried to turn off layers ("bling"?) but cannot find any options. And it is not just slow on Safari, but seemingly anything. If I feel the need to upgrade, this experience will make me look elsewhere than Apple [motoG?].
to err is human, to forgive is divine, to forget is... umm...
Unless you are willing to pay a subscription fee for a group of developer to continue moving the software forward
I'm willing to pay. The manufacturer just isn't willing to take my money, except to buy a new device. And the manufacturer has chosen to assert copyright and/or anticircumvention rights to keep any other group of developers from taking my money.
I think getting rid of all the legacy stuff that's in X86 Windows is an advantage.
In that case, let me know when one can run Visual Studio Express on a Surface RT, even while docked. Or should someone be buying a Raspberry Pi for programming and a Surface for everything else?
Turn off parallax - that did it to mine. There are dozens of articles on that and a few other tweaks. I honestly can't remember exactly what i have done (would be nice to have a list of settings ala plists in iOS but we are not worthy). Interesting that people think that 7 messes up an iPhone 4S. Mine has 64 GB flash which is about 2/3 full. They all have the same amount of RAM, I can't imagine there are substantive differences between various examples of the same model. There are certainly individual tolerances for UI responsiveness, but, aside from the camera app, everything seems to work as well as before. It may use more battery (or the battery may finally be getting to EOL).
I have some issues with the UI designer completely ignoring visual cues, but in general I like the look and the idea behind the tweaks. Mostly.
Faster! Faster! Faster would be better!
the average per download revenue on iOS is 5x what it is on Android.
Source please? I'm interested in the precise methodology used to arrive at that figure. Does it count only priced apps, only priced apps and IAPs, or also advertisements? I seem to remember one well-known video game developer making more revenue from ads on Android than from priced app sales on iOS.
Nexus is a Google-branded and Google-maintained device. [...] The track record for [updates on] Google-branded devices is quite a bit different.
Of the Nexus One (2010-01), Nexus S (2010-12), and Galaxy Nexus (2011-11), which can run Android 4.4 (KitKat)? Nexus One is stuck on 2.3 (Gingerbread), Nexus S on 4.1 (Jelly Bean), and Galaxy Nexus on 4.2 (Jelly Bean 2) or 4.3 (Jelly Bean 3) depending on revision.
The problem is, if my iPad needs to get wiped for whatever reason, I cannot reinstall older versions of the apps from the Apple Store, since they will not allow download of old versions of apps, even if the newer version is not compatible with my hardware.
Apple recently changed this policy if NoMaster's comment is to be believed.
Parallax isn't available on the 4, just the 4s and up.
Well, in benchmarks, Safari's rendering is faster, even if the UI isn't. :/
I turned off all the animations and things. I think it's in the accessibility section.
It's not bad. This is much better than when the iPhone 3G was upgraded to iOS 5 (I think? Maybe 4?)
I find the apps are generally worse than the OS itself...which means it's good that Apple is demanding that they optimise for iOS 7.
Apple is really trying hard to get ios7 adoption. I got an ad for free iTunes content (Xmas related), that turned out to require ios7 to load the app to get it. This became really obvious because I was using an old iPad1 that can't load it.
I wonder why they are pushing so hard for the upgrade. I have older iPhones that I haven't upgraded because of performance concerns -- I suspect many do. Are they planning something that requires good adoption, or is there some problem with the old versions? Seems like a bit much just to get rid of some old devices.
the first major stepping stone of ruining a good product is pissing off developers.
hopefully this is the first step to an all android world
It's not a bad phone. Too bad the negative publicity over Windows 8 has drowned out any real discussions over Windows Phone 8 & Lumia. B'cos the phone itself is great, and the OS has a decent applications collection, barring games. But it has most of the apps that one would find useful - from Whats App to HERE maps to unit converters & other utilities. In fact, MS OneNote, whose use I could never figure out on a laptop, was self explanatory here when you look at the samples provided, and I use it to make shopping lists, list my car repair work and so on. Typing on this is a lot smoother than on either an Apple or an Android phone, since it correctly guesses words, but unlike Symbian, doesn't try to force you into accepting its guesses when the look-up is on: in fact, this is the best phone for typing.
But yeah, if the main thing you want to do w/ your phone other than talking is playing games, then either iPhone or Androids are better
Can someone describe - what changes from iOS 6 -> 7?
Apple needs to focus on legacy support for both hardware and software. Software should gracefully fall back on features to work with older hardware. Older software should continue to work on newer hardware. Apple can make this happen all the way back and that would support the classics of software from the past. Just because they're updating and want to sell new hardware doesn't mean our media and software should be abandoned.
This also would be the green thing to do.
__________________
If its exclusive, i guess they will render my perfectly fine 3Gs a virtual brick.
Yes i know in theory it 'does the same stuff it does when you bought it', but as APIs change, that becomes less and less true.
---- Booth was a patriot ----
1. it's ugly
From a programmer's perspective, the UI is massively different. You really need to go through and update all your artwork and customizations to match. The size of the navigation bar changed (and it's translucent by default) so you also need to rearrange a lot of your views.
There's also a lot of minor things where maybe you were doing it wrong before but it didn't matter... and now it breaks. Or deprecated stuff (which can accumulate for apps that have been around for a while).
Do you even lift?
These aren't the 'roids you're looking for.
One (slightly obtuse) solution for this is to run Visual Studio on a remote machine, and connect to is with Remote Desktop.
In order for something like that to replace my Xubuntu netbook that runs GCC and Python and ca65 while I'm on the bus to or from work, I'd need to buy a mobile data plan, which in my country (USA) can get very expensive. But I imagine that the "programming while riding transit" edge case is too small for any major manufacturer to care about.
I'm Vision Impaired and like many other Vision Impaired Persons around the world that probably used to enjoy using Apple mobile products with iOS 7 are probably in the same boat as me. The latest iOS 7 with the visual cues removed, bevels, edges just make for a very awful UI experience overall. It's so bad I'm actually moving away from Apple (at least their iPhone/iPad mobile products) and considering Android (since 4.2+ now includes zoom/magnification accessibility).
If everybody takes intro to computer science in high school, then the user's POV is the developer's POV. Good luck doing even Hour of Code on an iDevice.
...now with copy, paste AND delete ... and lots of transparent PNGs
I'm not willing to risk it. Even if it were 1000 times faster, I still wouldn't because by doing so it economically rewards Microsoft for a horrible horrible UI design. Vote with yer wallet is the saying around these parts.
I'm not a huge fan of everything in iOS 7 - I think it looks better overall than iOS6 but agree there are a lot of usability issues.
HOWEVER I am a fan of pushing to get apps to look more 'iPhone' like. There are a LOT of apps out there that are plain ugly and have clearly been written not in Xcode but in some cross-platform style-devoid program that churns out basic functionality for every phone OS the app can be compiled for.
Some apps have the most awful desktop-style navigation and I can only imagine they are produced by Android devs just trying to make a buck on the iPhone as well. The standard is really low and any attempt to bring it up is a good thing as far as I am concerned.
Yeah, but with 8.1 I *like* the UI. The right click start menu options are the best thing since sliced bread, and I didn't spend a lot of quality time with the old start menu, and found it sort of cumbersome. Win+R still works, as do the other shortcuts. Win+I brings up the settings pane thinger. And so on.
Oh don't mistake my hate for Win8 as the same hate the rest of /. has towards it. I absolutely hate command lines and keyboard shortcuts so their omission or addition won't be noticed by me. It's that damned pastel flat metro layout that sucks. Oh and the charms bar. And the hidden corners and swipes. Pretty much the whole look of the UI (which btw I see /. in IE10 appears to be trying to mimic the flat ugliness of it all). While technically you can now turn it off, it still isn't right and keeps popping up when you need to do stuff. I get to sit here for 8 or 10 hours a night and listen to the guy next to me cuss his new laptop constantly. It just makes no sense where icons and options pop up or where exactly in the menu it is. I'm no Luddite, I'm just waiting out Win8 like I did ME & Vista. Win9 should be epic!
IO7 looks like Metro.
You are not forced to update with ios7 either. What they're saying is new apps will not be compatible with ios6. But if you like your ios6 and current apps you can keep your ios6 and current apps
my karma will be here long after I'm gone
"Seems snappier" is the hipster language for "can't really tell the difference but I need to pimp my favorite crap anyway".
I found an animation option on my iP4, it's much smoother/faster now.
MABASPLOOM!
I can appreciate that, and I didn't like Windows 8 quite as well as 7, however I prefer 8.1 to either one. WIN+I eliminates seeking one "hidden corner" for settings and putting the start button back more than fixes everything else, if you right click it you will see what I mean. It's not perfect, and hopefully the 8.1 update will address some other issues but it's damn good really. Win RT is still lame. ;)
Possibly. In this case I adore that you think it's possible I could pass for a hipster and I really meant that it's faster to do many operations I care about and seems to consume fewer resources while doing so. I cannot however state that it's always faster for everything. It might be, but I can't prove it. Why all the hate?
Hate? I was ridiculing your statement, not hating on it.
No need to hate on someone hopeless enough to pimp out windows 8 over windows 7. You can only either ridicule or pity such a person, and I'm not nice enough of a person to just pity.
Actually, 8.1. I call 7 vs 8 a draw. You'll be crying about 9 when it comes out too.
Yup. Just like I can boot up my iPhone and it doesn't automatically and forcibly upgrade the OS. It asks me, but I can click not to.
I figured that iOS 5 was working just fine on my iPhone 4, so I kept it at that. No problem; I just declined updates now and then. When iOS 8 comes around, I'm going to wait to see how well it runs on a 5S before I try it.
So, please, what system were you talking about? Chrome and Firefox aren't quite OSes (yet); is this an issue with ChromeOS? It sure doesn't apply to my Apple stuff, or my Linux stuff, or my MS Windows stuff.
"When you have eliminated the unacceptable, whatever is left, however improbable, must be the truthiness" - Holmes
No, I'll just keep using seven wondering how long microsoft can keep it up.
OK have fun. This happens EVERY time a new version of Windows comes along. People complained about 2K a bit, they howled about XP (too cartoonish!), sniveled about Vista and whined about 7. Now it's crying about Win 8.x - nothing new.
Indeed. Except that right now, even OEMs are screaming down your employer's/idol's ear to make a desktop OS for desktop again.
That and they are shifting towards making things other than PCs. Sadly. I guess we'll see what gives in first, desktop PC market or microsoft bosses egoes. As I quite like desktop PCs, I'm hoping is the latter.
That's just silly. I dislike RT and I have no use for Windows Phone in it's current form, but for PC use the NT family has been my go-to for decades, and the minor version bumps from 6.x to 6.x+y are not going to change that. Some people cried when Program Manager went away in 4.0, more cried about the 5.0 changes in 2k, even more about XP, because NT was pushed into the mainstream at that point, and every revision since it's the same song and dance. History repeats.
Tell that to OEMs making those PCs. I'm sure they're interested to hear the grand olden stories of the good old days.
Unfortunately reality is that if you ask anyone working in today's shop what's the single most important reason people walk out of their shop without purchase, it's their answer "no" to the question "can I get this with windows 7?"
That is the sad reality. And excessive brown nosing isn't going to make it better - it's going to make it worse because the problem will not be fixed for a longer period of time.
Interestingly for the first time in my career this year I *do* get to prepare ISV software for OEMs from tiny little manufacturers like Samsung, HP, Toshiba, Acer, and so on, and while these niche market brands might not be familiar, I can say that they never complain about Windows 8, or 8.1, or the upcoming 8.1 Update, but they DO make a fuss about being sure we are ready for the next version so we can ship on their hardware. Also, individual people did the same thing with Windows 7, complained, asked for XP, some walked. As I said, history. Repeating. In a couple years people will be crying over 9 and saying they love 8.x soooo veryyyy much and they will walk if they can't get 8.x, so predictable.
I'm sorry, are you someone who has any kind of power to change microsoft's stupidity?
No?
Then why on earth would Samsung, HP, Toshiba, Acer and so on care enough about you or your opinion on the subject?
P.S. They have been complaining to about anyone in the press who has been listening though. Because unlike you, these people actually have the push to do something about it. A basic google search will result in a boatload of hits on the subject.
P.P.S. At least during vista, alternatives have been pretty crappy. Right now, alternatives are plentiful and PC sales show it. We're looking at a nosedive in PC sales for everyone right now. Far worse than ever before.
Well Microsoft actually seems to be doing OK, and *I* don't personally care how Windows does in the long term, all *I* care about is that NT 6.3 (AKA Windows 8.1) works better for me than NT 6.2, 6.1, or any previous versions have. I don't see massive shifts in the PC landscape over any of those releases. What I *DO* see is alternative form factors (phones tablets, etc) making plays for consumer dollars. Great! I develop on Android as well, so that works for me. One thing I won't be doing? Crying over a missing Start Menu. Have fun with that.
Microsoft could go into negative in its windows division and do fine. Office is the main money maker anyway, and it's still going to get a cut off almost every PC sold even if it stopped developing windows tomorrow.
OEMs on the other hand sell hardware. And hardware sits on the shelves, while customers ask "can I get this with 7? Only 8? Yeah, I'll stick to my old machine after all, thanks".
Calling that "crying", well, there is a special place in hell for people like you.
Lotta impotent-rumplstiltskin-esqe rage there, over me saying that Windows 8.1 works for me and is a little snappier at a few things. I'm laughing my ass off and picturing tiny little feet stomping, tiny hands waving and tiny flecks of foam from a tiny thin-lipped mouth. Thanks for that.
It's always fun to hear that someone has an impotent fit of hysteria after running out of arguments. It also explains the whole "snappier" thing - as it does take quite an active delusion/imagination to draw such positive conclusions about 8.
So cute. NT 6.3 is measurably faster (fact) at several things such as hibernation/resume, and boot times, as well as feeling snappier to me (opinion) for most other things. I don't understand where you get so much rage over my simply pointing this out, to the point of making false and nasty accusation WRT my motives, but it is immensely amusing. Don't ever change.
The OEMs are being pressured to release Windows 8 hardware: touchscreens, hinged or removable screens, ultra light weight.... Those systems benefit from Windows 8. The problem is the OEMs are insisting on selling Windows 7 systems with Windows 8 OS. I think Microsoft should have just made those sorts of features semi-mandatory (i.e. you pay a lot extra for the Windows 7 license but you don't need those features) but they didn't do that.
Still I'm glad they are holding the line. They have a very conservative customer base and ecosystem partners with a ton of bad habits.
That's the cause of Windows 8 not an effect. And you can tell that by the fact that the nosedive started 5 years ago, Windows 8 had little impact on the trajectory. The problem is:
a) a drop in ASP for desktops and laptops
b) an increase in the recycle time
c) alternatives which are driving up (b)
and soon (though not yet for most)
c') alternatives completely replacing x86.
Microsoft wants to fight this battle in 2013 rather than fighting it in 2017, before Android was ready. The Windows OEMs are not onboard a strategy of driving up price and features since mostly they were successful in living in the low margin / high volume world that Microsoft used to want. Getting the OEMs onboard fully is something that Microsoft will accomplish.
You are lying. Vast majority of PCs nowadays are sold with 8. A visit to any shop, including amazon or similar shows this.
Fact is, all the blingy useless trash like touch on desktop does only one thing: increase costs for consumer. And while microsoft is "holding the line" against its customers, customers are slowly but surely getting the message: buy something similar from companies that care about your needs, rather than egoes of their bosses.
W/hat do you think I'm lying about.
Which companies are those in terms of desktops?
1. About availability of 7. MS made it hell to get it. You have to pay significant extra to upgrade 8's license to have a right to upgrade to 7. If it's available at all in your particular country.
2. None. Instead customers are migrating to lower functionality of tablets whenever possible, which is still better than catastrophe of 8.
1) I didn't say that wasn't true. You may want to reread the original. I more or less said that Microsoft should make it more punitive to help cover the cost of hardware.
2) OK that's fine. That's the 1/3rd of the market that is going to be most resistant to higher prices. No problem dropping that group there is no margin from them.
2. That's fine? Do you understand the numbers at all? We're talking hundreds of millions of machines in terms of sales.
Losing that is a catastrophe for OEMs, and even worse - once critical mass on "those other systems" is reached, developers will move from windows to "those other systems".
We have already seen how well windows does without developers. It's called windows RT.
Yes I understand the numbers. The Microsoft market is huge but was in a serious pattern of decline. Microsoft made a strategic choice which allows for growth. Any choices involve huge numbers.
The bottom of the market represents lots of revenue but often low or even negative margin. They are also the customers most likely to go to Android in 2017-2021 regardless of what Microsoft does for cost reasons. The only thing is losing when they lose the bottom 1/3rd is one sale per at low or negative margin. That may be $35b in revenue per year but it isn't much more than $2b a year in OEM profits. In exchange for losing that segment Microsoft has the capability to raise prices, creating margin and quality again. The have the ability to create a real spread by 2018 between what you get with a Windows x86 laptop and what you get with a Android ARM laptop. A situation where the Windows x86 is simply so much better than the few hundred dollar price difference doesn't matter. Much as exists today.
If this works then Microsoft has created a stable situation for home/small business something like
top 10% Apple OSX
mid 60% windows
bottom 30% Android and iOS
with that middle 60% replacing every 4 years with gross margins well above 20%. That's a far better situation than what exists today for OEMs. And then of course from there Microsoft can expand out again moving up or down depending on which side is weaker.
There are likely going to be 10b Android devices in use by 2020. Microsoft can't do anything about critical mass. Critical mass is a done deal. Android is way over critical mass and will be growing much faster than Microsoft for a decade regardless of what Microsoft does. iOS tablets are incredibly popular with developers because of the phone applications. Again they are at critical mass.
Certainly a few hundred million extra PC convert devices are, for the Android market, going to represent the high end. Normally they could very well act as the bridge between good quality Android applications for people who consider Android devices their secondary devices. Which is why normally Microsoft would be much more worried about setting up disruption from below. But... with the Android demographics a huge percentage of the people buying Android have no primary device. In places like China, India, Africa, the demand for Android applications which are more powerful already exists. So the bridge will exist regardless of what Microsoft does.
So that's not a real threat. If you don't agree with the strategy come up with a reasonable 10-15 year plan to fight off Android. Microsoft's plan makes sense. The stick with the existing paradigm plan is one which gives OEMs s few more slightly bad years in exchange for having to fight off Android devices that are comparable to what they are selling in 2018. They just simply get disrupted and lose.
I have one. Stop alienating those on the fence effectively telling them to take the shit shoveled or go away. Give people the desktop centric interface at least as an option, preferably as a default one. Stop shoving a bad touch based interface onto desktop by force of monopoly. That makes people go looking for options. People that would otherwise not do so.
OK now run those numbers. Talk about how it boosts margin and revises the platform. Stop thinking like a child and start thinking like you were running a platform.
I explained at great length why it doesn't matter if a small segment are alienated.
You have a core error in your argument, in that new interface is a "bet on the future".
It's not. Future has already tried it and judged it a catastrophic failure. It's a bet on the past, specifically on ability to be able to drive undesired changes based on monopoly. This has worked for microsoft in the past, several times. This time, it's failing, and beginning to cause the failure of entire windows monopoly.
P.S. Your numbers, judging by 10% apple's slice, are US numbers only. I'm talking something far, far more important than a single large sized market that is in decline in relation to the rest of the world. I'm talking world wide, the market where microsoft was traditionally the only real player, apple was marginal and weird at best, and android is pretty much the only functional replacement as of typing this.
Excel and Word when they first came out took years to thrive. SQL Server took years. Windows 8 we have no idea. Most people who try it on the right hardware like it.
As far as world wide, 3rd world Microsoft doesn't make much money. G20 is where they are focusing. Android has already won most of the planet, they can't compete. Microsoft doesn't have a viable $80 product, Google does.
What, both of them?
Jokes aside, windows 8 is a tablet OS. Nothing more, nothing less. What windows was before it, was a desktop OS. And microsoft needs a desktop OS. It doesn't have one right now, other than for those that buy windows 8 pro and can upgrade to 7, which is microsoft's last desktop OS.
In a way, you're right. People who used it on "right hardware" probably do like it. Problem is, they like android and ios a whole lot more. And 8 is useless trash on desktop, where it's actually used.
So a product for one segment, that for some reason (well we do know the reason, it's called leveraging monopoly, something for which MS has convictions in the past) which is forcibly pushed into another. A car analogy: 8 is a sedan being pushed into truck market, because microsoft is the only truck company worth a damn. It doesn't compete well against sedans when put against them, and it fails on principle when competing with previous iteration of the truck by the same company.
However company makes it hard as hell to get older functional trucks, because it wants to get into sedan market and hopes that truck buyers will buy its sedans. Catastrophic collapse of sales ensues.
I don't think that's true. In fact I know it isn't true. People who have the right hardware see iOS and Android as not remotely capable of fulfilling their needs. They aren't even options because the applications aren't close to good enough. Windows 8 is far better on good hardware than Windows 7 because it offers most of the advantages of Android or iOS while still offering the advantages of a desktop OS.
Tablet based PCs are growing 53.4% year over year in a market contracting by 11%. Customers are getting the message they have to buy this more expensive hardware.
You can't have it both ways. You are arguing that the truck buyers are off buying sedans now. You are agreeing that these truck buyers are converting.
So let's try a different analogy. There used to only be trucks. Now sedans are invented and it turns out many people who own trucks might prefer a sedan. Some see an advantage in both and some only want a truck. So a truck company releases a sedan with a hitch and a back compartment allowing people to have the advantages of a sedan and the advantages of a truck. The truck people buy the sedan, don't buy the back compartment or the hitch and complain the sedan is a lousy truck.
All I can say is whatever you're smoking, it must be some very hard stuff. You actually think that windows 8 is a functional fusion of tablet and desktop?
Have you ever touched a PC running one? I'm yet to meet a single person who would make such a claim after actually using the OS.
On the other hand I have a lot of people I know who came to me as I was the computer guy to ask where they could get the "windows to replace this colorful weird thing that came with my computer?"
So either you're in serious trouble with chemicals, or you're on MS payroll and doing your job. If latter, please pass the message up the chain - 8 is a catastrophe and those of us that actually like windows would like windows 9 to be a functional hybrid of XP and 7 with anything taken from 8 ripped clean out. We need a desktop OS. Not a jury rigged hybrid like USSR that "stands in communism with one foot but is stuck in socialism with another" as the old soviet anecdote goes. Because the old granny asking "how long do we have to stand in this uncomfortable position" was far smarter then the communist party guy that came to advertise the message.
Thank you.
Yes, I own a Surface Pro1 and it is my secondary laptop. I think it is really quite nice with lots of potential. I particularly like having the desktop mode running on an external monitor with the tablet monitor running the Metro interface. It is the first interface that makes sense for laptop + large monitor.
___
Now have you ever run it with the right hardware?
Metro makes sense for large screen? You say this based on owning a surface tablet?
This is where I know I'm talking to someone severely mentally challenged or so emotionally invested in the product that any future argument is pointless. You cannon convince someone who's mentally retarded and you can't convince a believer. Both draw strength from their conviction, no matter how unbased in reality it is.
No try again.
Metro on laptop screen
desktop on large screen
I think we should stop now. You are rude and silly.
No, it's not true. I can boot up my computer that runs Windows XP, or my other computer that runs NetBSD 4.0, and it doesn't automatically and forcibly upgrade the OS
Funny how you didn't quote the OP: "Isn't it true for all technology today? It's called progress" - and then bring as example two OSs officially replaced at least half a decade ago.