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Alan Turing Pardoned
First time accepted submitter a.ferrier writes "Today's computing would be unthinkable without the contributions of the British mathematician Alan Turing, who laid down the foundations of computer science, broke Nazi codes that helped win World War II at the famous Bletchley Park, created a secure speech encryption system, made major contributions to logic and philosophy, and even invented the concept of Artificial Intelligence. But he was also an eccentric and troubled man who was persecuted (and prosecuted) for being gay, a tragedy that contributed to his suicide just short of the age of 42 when he died of cyanide poisoning, possibly from a half-eaten apple found by his side. He is hailed today as one of the great originators of our computing age. Today he received a royal pardon."
Charges should have been dropped. A pardon implies that he was actually guilty of something worthy of criminalization .
"Have you ever thought about just turning off the TV, sitting down with your kids, and hitting them?"
They can take their pardon and shove it up the queen's ass.
An abject apology would be a good start.
So how come it's dated for tomorrow, and wonky, and badly spelled?
Now he can start enjoying life, oh wait, we're just trying to make people feel good. move along, there is nothing here
Just like all politics, worried about nothing more than the image. Nothing to see here.
Take this sig and smoke it.
Charges should have been dropped. A pardon implies that he was actually guilty of something worthy of criminalization .
The poor bastard had to deal with the horseshit while he was alive. This pardoning and whatever long after he's dead accomplished nothing.
It's just PR for little political people that want to pander to the Gay and Lesbian community.
Alan is one of the smartest people on this planet. The way he was treated is a direct display of our inhumanity. He is on my wall now, framed in gold, hanging on my silk-spun wall of fame (not that it matters to anyone), but I will forever remember him as one of the most important mathematicians of his time and even our time. I've placed him next to Benoit Mandelbrot for a reason (can you figure out why?).
We as a species are very different when it comes to our mind, our culture, our background. People will always be treated according to the common public's belief, religion or politics no matter what science tells us.
I know this, because just as Alan, I am as different as the rest of you. But you would hate me for who I am, and if you knew, you would love me, as would you love your next of kin, and everyone around you...if you grew a little...kind of like Alan, but there is a time for everything, and hopefully...we're nearing that time...when you can discern between science and religion, and understand that the world is so much more.
What this world is coming to - is for you and me to decide.
Who literally owe their current non-occupied existence to the work performed by heroes like Mr. Turing?
Make sure everyone's vote counts: Verified Voting
A gesture that the UK Govt did wrong at the time ...
We must never forget that sometimes, the laws are wrong and cause great people to suffer or die.
No sig. Move along - nothing to see here.
Shouldn't the law apply to everyone in an equal manner? Why should he be exempted from the same treatment others got?
If this man's life provided the full rationale for gay rights, it would be enough.
Steve Magruder, Metro Foodist
This should have happened decades ago. Since the 70s his contribution to winning the WWII are known and there are very, very few humans that can rival his impact.
His blography very subtly suggests there was more to his suicide than meets the eye
"a tragedy that contributed to his suicide just short of the age of 42 when he died of cyanide poisoning, possibly from a half-eaten apple found by his side"
That myth has been disproven hundreds of times. The tons of sugar in an apple beats out the miniscule amount of cyanide present in the seeds. Sugar is the natural antidote to cyanide poisoning. I eat the entire apple, core and all. 30 years, not one bit of cyanide poisoning.
Still waiting on Serviscope_minor to wake up to fucking reality and realize that Jessica Price isn't going to fuck him.
MAYBE committed suicide.
I really hope this is real.. but it's a random(ish) website. The language seems rather odd even by royal proclomation standards. Are we sure this isn't a fake? I'd want to see a few serious sources ratify this.
Phil has a master's degree in education, you bigoted fucktard.
Lots of men were charged with these insane laws. Why aren't they all pardoned? I see it as nothing more than a cute gesture. Everyone persecuted under these bullshit laws should be given full pardons.
If you can quash a conviction even though it was perfectly correct by the law at the time it happened then you can prosecute someone for something they do today if it's made illegal next year.
Retroactive law is a dangerous box to open.
Confucius say, "Find worm in apple - bad. Find half a worm - worse."
Other sources have ratified it: http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/alan-turing-gets-his-royal-pardon-for-gross-indecency--61-years-after-he-poisoned-himself-9023116.html
... the queen did not also pardon everyone else who was every convicted for being gay.
What Mr Turing pled guilty to is not a crime. That he and any one else should have been treated as criminals, and how they were treated is the crime.
Anyone ever treated this way deserves a pardon and more, our most humble apologies.
Agreed! Other countries like America, Russia or Nigeria would never persecute people just for preferring to drive up chocolate lane.
Confucius say, "Find worm in apple - bad. Find half a worm - worse."
He was a pervert, lusting for other men and that was not cool in those days. Not sure, why it's OK now and wtf is this pardon all about.
Yes he was a smart guy but so what. He was still considered a perv.
She's still alive!
Alan Turing, like Oscar Wilde, had some sexual partners who were working class youth. Back in those days, homosexuality was homosexuality, all homosexuality was illegal, and age wasn't much of an issue. While the Gay Movement celebrates the unjust persecution of Alan Turing for "Homosexuality," they gloss over the fact that today, we would lock him up, throw away the key, and denounce him as a pedophile for consensual sex with teenagers. It's lovely that he's been pardoned, but it's a bit hypocritical how today's Gay Activists grandfather in for Historical Gay Icons, behavior they would be the first to loudly condemn in their contemporaries.
They drove a singular genius to suicide - deprived him of his life and the world of his genius and the best they can do is decades later pardon him FOR BEING GAY.
Wow! Using the word conviction suggests Justice Secretary Chris Grayling is of the opinion that Alan Turing was just playing a belief game.
Clearly still a further apology to come yet.
If only "being retarded" wasn't a property that could be shared by more than one entity at a time, your post would have actual relevance.
Oliver's law of assumed responsibility: If you're seen fixing it, you will be blamed for breaking it.
Amnestied Russian punk band pair criticize Putin after release
http://news.yahoo.com/russian-punk-band-member-alyokhina-released-jail-russia-054642530.html
Too bad it's apparently real hard to turn gay; otherwise, I'd apparently have an easy ticket to the opposite region of the afterlife from where brave crusaders against homosexuality like Hitler, Falwell, and Putin end up.
A whole lot of good that education did him. And please learn to use the term "bigoted" correctly. If you dont know what the word means, look it up so you can apply it in the correct context. Fucktard.
Fuck the British government of Christmas past for what they did to him. Here you have a genius, a war hero, one of the greatest people of the twentieth century, and your fucking idiocy runs him straight into the ground. Fuck you forever.
He was convicted for something that was a crime when he was convicted. The judge didn't know that he was a war hero, and nobody who knew could tell him because it was top secret at the time. What you are complaining about, nobody knew about that until it was thirty years too late to do anything about it.
Now some questions: If something becomes illegal after you do it, should you be convicted retroactively? And if something becomes legal after you do it, should you be "unconvicted" retroactively? And consider that things change all the time; what you do today might be a crime in twenty years time. For example, it's not unthinkable that you would get convicted for assault for smoking in a pub in twenty years time. And that everyone talking about it would say that you fully deserve it.
The other: If you are a war hero and commit a crime, should you be convicted, or should the law not be applied because you are a war hero? Is that answer simply yes or no, or is it "depends on what kind of war hero and what kind of crime"? In that case, does it apply to war heroes only? Or to football heroes? Or entertainment heroes?
by the grace of god, of the united kindom, the queen, pardoned Alan Turing has, hmmm?
--
Stay tuned for some shock and awe coming right up after this messages!
Actually, laws can be declared "illegal" retroactively. I don't know what are the circumstances in each country, but in Germany during the last 10-20 years, a lot of laws were declared "illegal" retroactively, including e.g. some tax laws. The government had to pay compensation to the effected people retroactively.
And no, I'm not talking about laws from the time of 1933-1945. These were new laws (e.g. one from 2003 that was declared illegal in, if I remember correctly, 2008 or so).
Now, admittedly, this was because these laws were declared "unconstitutional" and I don't know all the circumstances under which laws can be declared illegal retroactively, but it seems it is possible...
The thing that bugs me about this is that all you fuckers on the band wagon saying he should be pardoned in 2013 would be the first to call for his castration if you had been living in the UK in 1950. Seriously people are just as prejudiced now as they were 50, 100, or 1000 years ago.
The boogey man just changes. Today it is (Nazi|pedophiles|Muslims) , before that it was homos, before that it was commies, before that it was Jews, a long time ago being a Canaanite could get you killed. I think the apology / pardon is utter bullshit, when people are treating others like shit and continue to treat each other like shit, and apology is just a way to make people feel better about themselves, and say hey 'We are better than those assholes living 50 years ago.' Well you aren't. Sure you would not castrate someone today for being a homo, but you would surely say that pedophiles need to be castrated. Yes that is right an 18 year old man having sex with, or even seeing a naked 17 year old girl has committed a sex crime and is considered by law to be a pedo. Most people would have no problem whatsoever killing / locking up pedos.
Human nature does not change. It cracks me up when every generation thinks they are better more tolerant than those racist thugs who polluted society 20 - 30 years in the past. Those racist thugs that you hate so much are yourselves.
It's time for Britain to get rid of the concept of "royalty", in my opinion.
Really? How do you suppose you would feel if your God-given title was being besmirched by a bunch of transvestites?
--- Most topics have many sides worth arguing, allow me to take one opposite you.
Why should he receive a pardon? Rather the government should have received a penalty for playing God.
Black people were "governmentized" into being human with the amendments to the U.S. Constitution, where the SCOTUS should have
been deposed for ruling one human being could own another. As written the U.S. Constitution applied to all men and woman.
These same crimes of the state continue to play out now that government has chosen to social engineer being queer including
the destruction of free speech for the opposition through phony hate speech and crime laws. When will high school cliques stop?
The only function of government is to govern!
The inventor of the AK-47 was treated as a hero in Russia during his lifetime, and was promoted to general.
Meanwhile the inventor of much of computer science was convicted for moral crimes in the UK, and possibly hounded into suicide.
You know what's *really* perverted? All those disgusting heterosexual couples having sex for reasons other than procreation. We should lock them all up, along with everyone involved in the birth-control industry who are responsible for promoting such perversions and undermining God's will.
That's the problem with attempting to legislate morality - who gets to decide *whose* morality makes the cut? Even in a democracy, who defends the morality of the minority who don't have enough votes to defend themselves from the tyranny of the majority?
--- Most topics have many sides worth arguing, allow me to take one opposite you.
Anyone notice the fact that it is post dated for 12-24-13? Hope this doesn't turn out to be a hoax.
...Turing complete?
'nuff said.
Don't worry, I believe the rules are very specific that it's your actions that condemn you - after all your desires were put there by God (or was it the Devil? Folks can never seem to agree). So by acting without lust you should get a free pass into Hell, without having to worry about any annoying last-minute reprieves due to supernatural influences.
Of course there are other paths as well, for example eating a nice shrimp dinner while wearing a wool suit and cotton undergarments. IIRC the Bible condemns both the eating of shellfish and the simultaneous wearing of clothing made of different fibers even more strongly than it does homosexuality. Odd that you never hear of the brave crusaders attacking such filthy degenerates, there's certainly enough of them.
--- Most topics have many sides worth arguing, allow me to take one opposite you.
Continue to live your life of awful sin. You'll pay for it eventually, an eternity in Hell sounds good enough.
I'd rather be in hell than in heaven if it's going to be filled with assholes like you. If all the gays are in hell then our parties are going to be *fabulous*.
You would think that someone referred to as “the queen” for more than 60 years would be more sympathetic to the gay population.
That was modded down to -1? Has anybody ever heard of a "joke"?
As previous commenters have noted, this is no help to Turing himself. But it's useful as a reminder for us to look around at the legal systems we have now, and try to imagine who we are currently terrorizing and prosecuting and shaming and bullying in ways that, in fifty years, a government is going to have to issue another pardon or another apology for. What's the current equivalent of the vicious homophobia we're now finally becoming collectively ashamed of?
The reason they can't just drop the charges and offer regret is mainly political.
Turing was in violation of the law at the time. The law was definitely unjust, but he was in violation of it.
Dropping the charges or showing remorse would open up a can of worms regarding liability. Doing so would create precedent and a mechanism for descendants to air grievances over historical wrong doings - it will never end and may be costly.
Practically, this is the best they will ever dare do.
The charges and conviction still stand. Conviction should be quashed and a full "royal" apology
That is what in effect the pardon amounts to.
There is no such thing as "quashing" a conviction that was valid and proper under the law.
Today we may feel the law is unjust -- but the courts and legislators aren't entitled to nullify convictions on laws that existed at the time they were violated. 1000 years from now; they may well say the same thing about Disorderly conduct felons, felony Curfew violators, Public drunkenness laws, etc.
Regardless of what you think about homosexuality, he behaved against the law that was in place at the time.
It's a shame we lost a great man because of this, but law is arbitrary, and sometimes it destroys some people.
He wasn't wrongly accused or anything. This is only being done out of pressure to make a statement. It is legally entirely stupid.
WHEREAS the definitions of Gross Indecency under the laws of the United Kingdom to which Alan Turing plead guilty on the 31st day of March 1952 were perverse, unjust, inhumane and a violation of the human rights and dignity which are due to every person;
WHERAS Alan Turing was unjustly treated despite his exemplary service to the people of the United Kingdom;
AND WHEREAS the passing of time has illuminated these injustices to a now more grateful nation,
NOW KNOW YE that we renounce, regret and apologize for those injustices, pardon all persons harmed by the application of this law and clear the records of Alan Turing and all others similarly harmed.
It's an education degree. Not a real one.
John McAfee 'It was like that time I hired that Bangkok prostitute; to do my taxes, while I fucked my accountant'
It is not widely publicized nowadays but one of the chief propaganda items leading to the US entering WW II against Germany was the assertion that the Nazis were gay.
Seastead this.
You're familiar with the concept of "bad jokes", yes? Jokes that just aren't funny?
That was one.
If you really need an explanation of why: (1) the queen doesn't decide these things, her 'sympathy' has nothing to do with anything, (2) the title is a serious one with a long history, and she didn't ask to have it conflated with a certain type of sexuality, (3) nobody who has the faintest idea who the queen is or what she does would ever think of making that conflation.
TL;DR: *whoosh*
...what that old hag, Elizabeth and her sycophants think. A pardon from them is an insult to anyone with any sense of objectivity.
Would anyone place value on a pardon from Don Corleone?
There has already been a full apology.
Learn to love Alaska
Now some questions: If something becomes illegal after you do it, should you be convicted retroactively?
No, That's bad, and banned by the Constituion
And if something becomes legal after you do it, should you be "unconvicted" retroactively?
That's how all Supreme Court decisions work. If you are arrested for sodomy at the time, and the Supreme Court overturns the law you were convicted under, you are retroactively "unconvicted". It's happened many times in the US. Ex post facto release isn't a bad thing, and there's nothing that requires that if you can unconvict ex post facto, that you must also allow convictions ex post facto.
Learn to love Alaska
Thanks for linking to the Royal Pardon - just the wording of that made my day.
Fuck the British government of Christmas past for what they did to him. Here you have a genius, a war hero, one of the greatest people of the twentieth century, and your fucking idiocy runs him straight into the ground. Fuck you forever.
He isn't the first great person to have fallen, and he won't be the last. One thing to keep in mind is.... not everyone gets the message about such things. He may have been a genius, and a great war hero: but the legislators don't know about it; heros are often modest and unlikely to boast about it, and the courts at the time weren't even allowed to consider it, anyways.... at the end of the day, all the heros are just average people that have to live by the same rules as everyone else, or their future will be wrecked.
Think of the government, and the justice system like a "machine"; the courts operate in a mechanized fashion to implement the law and standards that have been put to them. Only the highly influential and powerful people can bend the machine, adjust the cogs, or cause it to act differently; Usually by AVOIDing the "Input" chute of the criminal justice machine altogether (Alan and partner were arrested after he and his mate were the victims of a robbery, and he reported the robbery - and admitted the relationship) - if the officers recognized him as a hero, and he had a powerful family, he could have probably escaped arrest, or at least gotten charges withdrawn --- Alan was neither well-known nor powerful at the time.
He just had a reward for military service. The criminal conviction also made Alan immediately stripped of his security clearance and ineligible for any further government/ top-secret work --- his consultancy with the GCHQ on signals intelligence and cryptography was terminated (probably to their great detriment); he was also Denied Entry to the United States based on the criminal record --- so you can't fault the UK alone; there, see, you have a conspiracy ----- the US customs will mechanically treat a UK conviction as a fact, and not doubt that justice has been done.
Take Hypatia --- killed by a mob of christians.
Petrus Ramus -- executed in the St. Bartholomew's Day massacre Giordano Bruno --- burnt alive due to the roman inquisition for heresy; cosmological theories going beyond the copernican model, the sun as one of many stars, and inhabited alien worlds
Siger of Brabant, Socrates, Anaxarchus, Seneca, Boethius, Judah Halevi, Jan Hus, Thomas More, Galileo,
The pages of history are written in blood ---- people that could have done so many more great things for humanity, but whose work got redirected to the industry of war, or their lives got cut short by violent acts or lawful abuses and miscarriages of justice of the government.
For every time a major new level of enlightenment is reached ---- the pattern seems to be someone has to suffer and die at the hands of unjust suppression or unjust laws deemed just at the time the events transpired
And, I'm sure it means a lot to Turning, as of right now. Oh, wait - he's dead. Like, a fat lot of good it will do him.
This really seams to be more an action to appease the living rather than the dead; by which, I mean it seems rather reactionary, not revolutionary.
For U-571 where the heroic Americans capture the Enigma machine (rather than the British who really did), and Enigma, where the code is cracked by a team of boffins at Bletchley Park where a character called "Tom Jericho" is the genius responsible for decoding the encryption.
A movie called "We're really really sorry for infecting the world with fictitious history that ignored the truth and mislead people for no good fucking reason other than the fact that the executives at the studio said that it wouldn't make as much money and Americans want to see Americans being the heroes and what's that you say, the hero of this story was gay, that's box office poison, change it and his name, or go take a job someplace else smartguy" might just go someway to alleviating the historical injustice done over the Atlantic more recently as well.
A pardon looks like Turing is still guilty of something, but well, considering his accomplishment, he deserve pardon.
If you consider he was unfairly convicted using laws that contradict human rights, then what he deserves are royal excuses.
Fat Load of Good it Does him Now.
Turing was innocent. The appropriate action would be to exonerate him, not pardon him. The British government should admit that Turning was persecuted unjustly.
-jcr
The only title of honor that a tyrant can grant is "Enemy of the State."
Issue more pardons.
How many more?
Well, how about every single soul ever convicted under "Turing's Law"?
Few other acts would express the appropriate level of "fuck you" to the mindset responsible for Turing's persecution, and reserving pardons for only the most notable implies that only the greatest have repaid their supposed "debt to society".
Marriage pretty much implies consummation. Heterosexual consummation, barring 100% effective birth control, with someone that closely related can (very likely will) produce offspring with significant genetic anomalies. Incest laws are really pretty well established as worthy; people with these kinds of genetic anomalies tend to not benefit from the differences. Heterosexual incest (and I'm talking blood relationship here, not step-anything) isn't a good idea and it won't become reasonable until or unless we can develop absolutely certain remediation for the genetic problems it causes.
Almost all the other ideas stigmatizing consenting, informed human relationships that have been codified into legislation -- anti-gay, anti-polygamy, anti-polyandry, anti-flirting, etc. -- are the result of superstitious and/or repressive thinking and should go away ASAP. Further, formal contracts should be enforced by the state, and other than that, the state should entirely butt out of personal relationships.
I've fallen off your lawn, and I can't get up.
Hypocrites, they used him for his brains, but couldn't allow him his sexuality. Turing was a true computer scientist :), in all the sense, even when it comes to being used by people in power and then ending up frustrated that no due respect is earned from the work done.
:p) .
Whatever "pardon" or "distinction" one could give him now, is nothing but hypocrisy, the guy is long dead, we do not care about the pardon now, what has been done has been done, and the grudge must always be present against people in power that keep on doing such things over and over.
My opinion is that the government wants the vote of gays and the support of computer scientist (:p No clue why computer scientists
Rules are rules.
...for not doing this before he was driven to kill himself.
This Royal PR thing should not confuse you. Please note: Alan Turing is already dead. It's bloody too late to be sorry!
Now if they cared to work a bit on response times...
Thanks God. Very sweet of you.
With the outrage at some countries stance on LGBT rights, this is Britain reiterating that it will not stand for intolerance. This won't do anything for Turing, as nobody in modern times with any sense held his conviction against him, but may help rights both nationally and internationally.
Actually it was really all about publicly making fun of his old schoolmate the current Pope for not understanding what Copernicus wrote but I get the analogy. It was most definitely politics and not religion.
It's a very interesting story eclipsed by all the "they tired to stop Galileo from telling the truth just like scientists are trying to stop confidence trickers like me" bullshit. Since most of us have been raised on the distorted version it's a widespread misconception, like the flat earth myth that didn't emerge until just over a century ago to make fun of historical figures.
The Queen didn't have a choice about the law that sent Turing to prison but she did have a choice about Elton John. It's not a Presidential system.
Thank you, Your Majesty.
They made a big deal for being gay, atthat time. Now is almost irrelevant.
This is a
Governments as an organisation should reflect on the decisions made by people sitting in the same seats around the time they were born. The "right thing to do" is often diametrically opposed to the "popular thing to do". An official apology is a good thing, it's much more important to a large proportion of victims than you seem to think. Especially when the "problem" is something innate to the individual such as skin colour, sex or sexual preference. An apology is akin to official acceptance (back) into society. I know for a fact that the nationally broadcast apology to the native population here in Oz meant a lot to my aboriginal friends from the NW, particularly those in my age bracket (50-something).
So here's the thing, Turing's was an extraordinary man and their is no dodging the fact he was betrayed by society and his government. So my question is was the previous (Gordon Brown) apology addressed to Turing or did it include the other 100,000 anonymous victims of that barbaric policy, has anyone said sorry to the survivors? - Yes I've googled it to confirm my recollection, and you should too.
John Graham-Cumming: On behalf of all decent slashdotter's I wish you a very merry xmas.
And did you exchange a walk on part in the war for a lead role in a cage? - Pink Floyd.
That's crazy talk. The State must send you to a psychiatric hospital for evaluation of undefined duration. Even when charged and convicted in a court of law the VIP always returns to the same social and employment status they had prior to conviction. Commoners are forced into a life of menial jobs at best with no hope of rebuilding their life to the level prior to conviction. Most of the actors in Hollywood should be serving federal prison time yet get repeatedly sent to rehab.
He was a pervert, lusting for other men and that was not cool in those days. Not sure, why it's OK now and wtf is this pardon all about.
Political Correctness, which of course will destroy mankind in a few years.
IIRC he was caught with a minor. (17 yr old male). In the US that would make him a child predator (even if it were a similarly willing female).
Just saying.
Turing committed suicide by a cyanide Apple, rumor has it that is where Apple logo came from...
Alan Turing does not need ANYBODY's pardon for whatever deluded administrative fiats masquerading as law he was deemed to have broken, least of all from these self-proclaimed parasites with single digit IQ who call themselves "royals".
The Latin you were looking for is i.e.
When deciding which one to use, you can generally replace i.e. with "such as" and e.g. with "therefore" and if the sentence doesn't make sense, you chose incorrectly. "including therefore some tax laws" does not make sense.
That is all. Good day!
I don't think changing history benefits anybody it just makes people look stupid much the same as the black inventors that never were. Biuro Szyfrów "Cipher Bureau" codebreakers Polish long before the mathematician Alan Turing. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biuro_Szyfrów Cryptanalysis of the Enigma https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cryptanalysis_of_the_Enigma Tommy Flowers, Flowers was born at 160 Abbot Road, Poplar in London's East End on 22 December 1905, the son of a bricklayer. Thomas "Tommy" Harold Flowers, MBE (22 December 1905 – 28 October 1998) was a British engineer. During World War II, Flowers designed Colossus, the world's first programmable electronic computer, to help solve encrypted German messages. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tommy_Flowers Died 28 October 1998 (aged 92) Mill Hill, London, England Nationality British Occupation Engineer Spouse(s) Eileen Margeret Green Children 2
The wording of the pardon makes me want to vomit. Though, it's better than nothing -- it falls short of giving him the respect he's entitled to.
Completely pointless act and a waste of resources. I want the government to focus on real issues which actually affect people alive today not waste my money on "feel good factor" stories.
Jokes actually need to be funny, rather than pathetic
It was more a dig at the smug herp-derpers who think all those amendments mean they have more freedom than anyone else, and feel qualified to comment on English legal matters when they don't know shit. But thanks for playing.
Confucius say, "Find worm in apple - bad. Find half a worm - worse."