Is a Super-Sized iPad the Future of Education?

theodp writes "Perhaps people are reading too much into Apple CEO Tim Cook's 'Big Plans' for 2014, but hopes are high that the New Year will bring a biggie-sized iPad. Over at Forbes, Anthony Wing Kosner asks, Will The Large Screen iPad Pro Be Apple's First In A Line Of Desktop Touch Devices?. 'Rumors of a large [12.9"] iPad are many and constant,' notes ComputerWorld's Mike Elgan, 'but they make sense only if the tablet is a desktop for schools.' Elgan adds, 'Lots of schools are buying iPads for kids to use. But iPads don't make a lot of sense for education. For starters, their screens are too small for the kinds of interactive textbooks and apps that Apple wants the education market to create. They're also too small for collaborative work. iPads run mobile browsers, rather than full browsers, so kids can't use the full range of HTML5 sites.' Saying that 'Microsoft has fumbled the [post-PC] transition badly,' Elgan argues that 'the battle for the future of education is likely to be between whatever Google turns the Chromebook into against whatever Apple turns the iPad into.'"

Comments

iDesk

[DigiShaman]

Just make an iDesk and be done with it already.

Re:iDesk

[nightsky30]

Give how normal desks and textbooks are treated by some children, they should stick with what they've been using for years. Kids are just going to destroy, abuse, and lose the expensive tech.

Re:iDesk

[Anonymous Coward]

I believe you misspelled iSurface.

Re:iDesk

[ecotax]

Kids are just going to destroy, abuse, and lose the expensive tech.

You are overgeneralising. My youngest son goes to a school that uses iPads. The kids all take their iPad to school every day, and after one and a half year, his one is still in perfect condition, and I think the whole class had one 'accident' over that period. The school found a pretty simple solution to prevent this: the parents pay for the iPads themselves...

Re:iDesk

[Anonymous Coward]

Herculite glass is some pretty strong stuff. Although currently only Gorilla glass is used on mobile devices. So if an iDesk is made, Herculite might be the way to go.

Re:iDesk

[Anonymous Coward]

So you get to send your kid to a public school and forced to buy a product from a private company? Nice setup.

Re:iDesk

[Anonymous Coward]

It's moronic to force pupils to buy a tablet to school. Not all parents can afford to buy their kids such equipment and thus it creates a lot of inequality in the learning environment.

Re:iDesk

[red crab]

Expensive tech aside, this is an example of monopoly even worse than MSFT's. Schools should have a say only over the course content, and that can be in form of a generic app designed to run on any device, even on a $25 Android tablet.

Re:iDesk

[Anonymous Coward]

A third of the kids around here get free lunch at school. I'm sure their parents can afford to buy several ipads, though.

Re:iDesk

[DigiShaman]

Yes, an iPad is pretty expensive considering your tax dollars are already paying for public education. But consider this. When people are abstracted out from cost, tangible items are given and treated with less respect. It's just a fundemental aspect of human nature. Now, when you bring this cost closer to home, the parents will be there to discipline their own child. Also, it's exceedingly difficult (if not impossible) for teachers and staff to do the disciplining for the parents. So come full circle, yes, it's best if the parents pay for these high-ticket items that are in direct possession of their children.

Re:iDesk

[tompaulco]

You are overgeneralising. My youngest son goes to a school that uses iPads. The kids all take their iPad to school every day, and after one and a half year, his one is still in perfect condition, and I think the whole class had one 'accident' over that period. The school found a pretty simple solution to prevent this: the parents pay for the iPads themselves...

This is just stupid. An ipad is a specific device by a specific brand. They can tell you to bring a pencil or paper, and as long as it meets specifications, it doesn't matter what you bring. But to specify a certain brand of tablet is not right. First of all tablets are expensive. Only rich people or people who are bad with money can afford to have them for their children. I'm sure that Obama will buy them for the poor folks. But the middle class people are then left out. They can't afford to buy one because they are subsidizing them for the poor people. This is just corporate graft an d corruption to use our tax dollars to shore up an industry that is drowning in its own profits.

Re:iDesk

[jedidiah]

There's already lot of inequality in the learning environment. It's called suburbia.

Re:iDesk

[Dcnjoe60]

Kids are just going to destroy, abuse, and lose the expensive tech.

You are overgeneralising. My youngest son goes to a school that uses iPads. The kids all take their iPad to school every day, and after one and a half year, his one is still in perfect condition, and I think the whole class had one 'accident' over that period. The school found a pretty simple solution to prevent this: the parents pay for the iPads themselves...

Average life of a textbook 5-7 years. Will the iPad still be in usable shape, say six years from now? Textbooks that are beat up still are usuable, what about an iPad?

Don't get me wrong, I'm not against using technology to educate kids, but school districts that are strapped for cash to start with should really do a cost benefit analysis (as related to education). OTOH, at least with iPads, the kids won't be creating all of those powerpoint persentations.

Here is the gist of my post -- where is the actual research that shows that learning in a school setting is increased by using an iPad (or any other tablet)? There is actually some that shows just the opposite, but even those studies are flawed and minimalistic. In short, before investing in and making such a paradigm change in education, shouldn't there be some sort of objective data to show it is warranted? As it is right now, all we have are ancedotal evidence.

Re:iDesk

[Reverand Dave]

I called it first. There's no one to sue over and iDesk.

Re:iDesk

[Dcnjoe60]

Expensive tech aside, this is an example of monopoly even worse than MSFT's. Schools should have a say only over the course content, and that can be in form of a generic app designed to run on any device, even on a $25 Android tablet.

That would really be doable, particularly if the course content is all in HTML5. Then any device with an HTML5 capable browser could access the content. If the content doesn't need to be interactive then straight HTML or PDF would suffice.

Of course, with such an open approach, it is hard for any one company to monopolize the system, which is probably why it won't be done.

Re:iDesk

[RabidReindeer]

Textbooks that are beat up still are usuable, what about an iPad?

Doesn't matter. The fad amongst e-textbooks is that they evaporate at the end of the term.

I'm glad I'm not in college these days. I still have most of my dead tree textbooks. Not just the job-related ones either. I find it entertaining to peruse them occasionally.

Re:iDesk

[stephenmac7]

Talking about money, would it not be easier (and much cheaper) to just drop the public schools themselves? Vouchers always sounded like a good idea.

Re:iDesk

[DigiShaman]

Urban. It's called Urban. Suburbia is where you live (and pay for in tax dollars) if you want to ensure your children have a good public education. In fact, when school districts get redrawn, that can instantly raise or lower the value of a home by 15%. So there's massive value in the housing market based on the school district alone!

Re:iDesk

[noh8rz10]

you can buy whatever brand tablet you like as long as they run iOS apps.

Re:iDesk

[ecotax]

You are overgeneralising. My youngest son goes to a school that uses iPads. The kids all take their iPad to school every day, and after one and a half year, his one is still in perfect condition, and I think the whole class had one 'accident' over that period. The school found a pretty simple solution to prevent this: the parents pay for the iPads themselves...

This is just stupid. An ipad is a specific device by a specific brand. They can tell you to bring a pencil or paper, and as long as it meets specifications, it doesn't matter what you bring. But to specify a certain brand of tablet is not right.

In an ideal world, all courseware would run on all tablets. Unfortunately, this is not the case. While in principle I agree it would be better if you could pick your own tablet, this is nearly as unrealistic as saying you could pick your own books - it's just not going to work in a school situation. I'm not happy about that. But the school we picked was clear about what tablet they'd picked, and that was the point where we could make a choice.

First of all tablets are expensive.

Yes, they are. Especially Apple ones. But so are books, and teachers. Money well spent, in my opinion.

Only rich people or people who are bad with money can afford to have them for their children. I'm sure that Obama will buy them for the poor folks. But the middle class people are then left out. They can't afford to buy one because they are subsidizing them for the poor people.

Maybe things are a bit different here in Europe, but AFAIK we have a higher tax rate here, I'm what you'd call middle-class, and I don't have any problem with buying an iPad for my children - nor with subsidizing the ones for poor people. Again, money well spent.

This is just corporate graft an d corruption to use our tax dollars to shore up an industry that is drowning in its own profits.

Let's agree he 5% educational discount Apple provides is a bit meagre :-)

Re:iDesk

[mlts]

I thought of that, but it would replace bad public schools with bad private schools, likely owned by a large company which would pay the teachers and everyone minimum wage, provide a craptastic education, skim everything off the top, get lawmakers to enact barriers to entry, preventing smaller schools from being able to get by, and make life a living hell for any kids who are not willing to toe the line 100% until they graduate. It would be extremely doubtful for graduates to have an education good enough to even secure a berth in a tier 1 college versus the stiff foreign competition.

Re:iDesk

[Anonymous Coward]

Right, because making the teachers spend all their time chasing down why Jimmie's $25 chinese craplet can't render the page on volcanoes is going to make this whole process go *really* smooth.

Re:iDesk

[Anonymous Coward]

The average cost of a text book is $80, and the kids need 12 of them each, making that a cost of $960, so the iPad doesn't need to last 6 years to be cheaper than the text books.

Re:iDesk

[morgauxo]

I think the problem the AC was getting at is that a tax-funded organization is making the decision that people will spend their money with a specific company. It's basically a case of the government deciding that Apple wins, Google and any other competitors lose. Free-market competion doesn't happen. If you make the assumption that kids will chose as adults the platform they started on all schools chosing iOS (and that's what they seem to be doing) creates a defacto command economy in the mobile market.

Re: iDesk

[Anonymous Coward]

Let's be fair.

Courseware designers want to be paid, not pirated.

Apple will step in to help. Androids ecosystem doesn't have such a guardian.

Re:iDesk

[morgauxo]

"While in principle I agree it would be better if you could pick your own tablet, this is nearly as unrealistic as saying you could pick your own books"

I agree but... I would like to point out that it is only unrealistic for 'political' reasons. Using HTML5 frameworks like Phonegap or Rho Mobile, etc... it is easy to build apps that run on nearly every tablet. Don't be mistaken, I am talking about real, installable, full functioned apps, not glorified webpages. The fact that instead the courseware authors are creating iOS only apps... Maybe it is just coincidence that those companies are all staffed with Apple fans but I suspect the truth is more nefarious and involves money changing hands.

Could teachers handle a multi-OS environment? An HTML5 app isn't really going to be laid out any different between platforms. The only differences would be in color schemes and widgits, think Apple vs Android number pickers, select boxes, etc... Yeah, it's different but pretty self-explanitory. As for the OS itself, what would the teachers be concerned with besides how to start the app? They aren't going to be walking through the setup areas! Find the correct icon for the courseware app, stick your finger on it, remove. What tablet is any different from that?

Am I being naive as to what differences the teachers can handle?

I went through HighSchool and College with an HP calculator. Everybody around here uses TI ones. They were completely different and none of my teachers knew anything about them. My parents picked it out because the sales guy told them it was more powerful (and it was). I had to listen through the teachers explain what to do on the TI, then search through the big fat manual and figure out the HP equivalent right there in class. I stuck with it because by the time I realized what a pain it would be I was used to it and didn't want to start over w/ TI. My teachers never made me switch.

It didnt' break me, I graduated college with a minor in Mathematics. I don't think the difference between two tablet OSs is going to be anything nearly as difficult as the difference between TI/HP calculators.

Re:iDesk

[Dcnjoe60]

Textbooks that are beat up still are usuable, what about an iPad?

Doesn't matter. The fad amongst e-textbooks is that they evaporate at the end of the term.

I'm glad I'm not in college these days. I still have most of my dead tree textbooks. Not just the job-related ones either. I find it entertaining to peruse them occasionally.

It does matter in the context of the post I was responding to, which referred to the longevity and durability of the iPad. Compared to a dead tree book that needs replacing every 5 to 7 years, on average, the iPad is not a longer lived solution, which is estimated to be 3 years. In addition, not only is there the cost of the iPad, but the cost of the e-books. So, K-12 will require 3 iPad purchases per student plus the cost of content. Books are the longer lived solution and cheaper once you figure in the cost of the iPads, the maintenance, and other costs associated with it.

Then again, if school administrators were good in financial calculations, they would probably be in a field other than school administration (not to slam them, but finance and accounting doesn't seem to be their strong point)

Re: iDesk

[Anonymous Coward]

I was forced to have *the same* crayons and chalk as every kid in my class. Crayola.

In highschool one TI calculator was supported and allowed to be used on tests.

In college I bought book after book from private publishers.

Welcome to the way it works in education.

Re:iDesk

[Anonymous Coward]

Yes, they are. Especially Apple ones. But so are books, and teachers. Money well spent, in my opinion.

It is pretty difficult to give someone a good education without books or teachers. They can be considered necessities. Tablets cannot, and until I see damn good evidence otherwise, I might even consider them detriments.

Re:iDesk

[Anonymous Coward]

I think the problem the AC was getting at is that a tax-funded organization is making the decision that people will spend their money with a specific company.

They do that anyway with textbooks (and often other ancillaries like photographers, uniforms, and consumable course materials), not to mention the thousands of product and service contracts the school has anyway.

It's basically a case of the government deciding that Apple wins, Google and any other competitors lose.

As is the case in any single transaction involving any actor, public or private.

Free-market competion doesn't happen.

Yes it does, to the extent it happens anywhere else. Forcing an institution to set up for every conceivable alternative that does or might one day exist in the consumer market is an unrealistic expense. Should all the school's computer labs be stocked with hardware from every PC vendor to make it fair, and have operating systems and applications distributed randomly? Does that fact that literally millions of dollars of taxpayer money goes exclusively to one company when they update their school bus fleet? Do teachers have to be prepared to teach every possible textbook on a subject?

It seems like you're not dealing with a real-world scenario here and you're complaining that a particular school chose iPads over some other product. There are schools out there choosing Android solutions, too, and probably a few getting suckered into Microsoft Surface deployments as well. The popularity of the iPad in education is because it offers a number of advantages and frequently does more of what schools need it to do. It's not a perfect education device, but there is no such thing on the market.

If you make the assumption that kids will chose as adults the platform they started on all schools chosing iOS (and that's what they seem to be doing) creates a defacto command economy in the mobile market.

What makes you think either of those assumptions is valid? Even if we accept them as a given in this hypothetical, on what basis do you conclude that the result is either improper or harmful? Apple already has a command position in the mobile market, and as for the education market, it's because they offer the best solution for many scenarios.

Re:iDesk

[John Jorsett]

Kids are just going to destroy, abuse, and lose the expensive tech.

You are overgeneralising. My youngest son goes to a school that uses iPads. The kids all take their iPad to school every day, and after one and a half year, his one is still in perfect condition, and I think the whole class had one 'accident' over that period. The school found a pretty simple solution to prevent this: the parents pay for the iPads themselves...

Contrast that with the experience at the Los Angeles Unified School District. After distributing take-home iPads at some schools (to be used for taking standardized tests, digital books, classroom notes, homework, etc.), the kids discovered how to defeat the protections that kept them from being general-purpose tablet devices, and proceeded to use them for gaming, social networking, etc. The schools demanded them back and only two-thirds were returned. LAUSD didn't yet know how they were going to handle that, since so many of its families are poverty-stricken and, many being illegally present, don't exist in the financial world for LAUSD to go after the money. Last I heard, the schools still had the ones it got back locked in a closet somewhere, and LAUSD had delayed indefinitely the rollout of iPads to more schools.

Re:iDesk

[BasilBrush]

Universal education is one of those things that are best done by the government rather than the private sector. It may not seem so because private schools do tend to get good exam results as things stand. But that's only because they select pupils, both literally, and as a result of kids with social problems not tending to have parents that are willing and able to pay the fees. Start paying private schools, to take every kid, at the same price per kid as government schools, and their results will dip below existing schools. Profits have to come from somewhere, and in such situations they come from cutting corners.

Re:iDesk

[BasilBrush]

Only rich people or people who are bad with money can afford to have them for their children. I'm sure that Obama will buy them for the poor folks. But the middle class people are then left out. They can't afford to buy one because they are subsidizing them for the poor people.

It's a peculiarly American thing to feel sorry for the middle class. It's a bit like white folks feeling they've been hard done to because they don't have as much discrimination to benefit from these days.

Re:iDesk

[BasilBrush]

An HTML5 app isn't really going to be laid out any different between platforms. The only differences would be in color schemes and widgits, think Apple vs Android number pickers, select boxes, etc...

There's resolution too. Targeting iPad gives them a fixed aspect ratio, and only 2 resolutions, with one being an exact doubling of the other.

Plus many of the educational products aren't apps at all, they are ebooks, with interactive widgets. Using Apple's iBooks Author, a book author and an artist can prepare a finished high quality interactive ebook with no programming or web development skills whatsoever.

And they have little incentive to do anything else, as the iPad is the usual tablet that schools use.

Why should they make more work for themselves and come up with an inferior product when there's little benefit to themselves.

Re:iDesk

[tompaulco]

It's a peculiarly American thing to feel sorry for the middle class. It's a bit like white folks feeling they've been hard done to because they don't have as much discrimination to benefit from these days.

It's gotten a lot worse in my lifetime. it used to be that middle class could pretty much hold their own. We knew the rich were rich and could afford whatever they wanted. That is fine. We knew the poor were given some subsidies for basic subsistence. But on the whole, if you worked hard, you could afford nicer things. But now it has gotten to a point where the definition of subsistence has become such that the poor have to have a cell phone and a $100 a month data plan. It used to be that a working middle class person would have nicer things than the someone living off of the government. But now the middle class is asked to do without so that people who don't work can have nicer things. It's not like this snuck up on us either. it has been changing for awhile. Back when I had first graduated college, I had student loans, a low paying entry level job, and a food budget of about $25 a month. My sister was on food stamps and got about $400 month for groceries. I was paying out of my taxes for her to have 8 times my food budget. It's only gotten worse since then. I was renting a house out, and one of the applicants drove up in a late model BMW 5 series. She asked if I took Section 8 (the local government assisted housing program). I can't afford a BMW, so how come people on government assistance can?

Re:iDesk

[BasilBrush]

You have a house to rent out, and yet you feel sorry for yourself? Because you feel poor people aren't as poor as you want them to be. How pathetic.

Re:iDesk

[GNious]

A school-district in Denmark (Odder) is reporting ca 15% breakage, with an average cost-per-incident of around 200USD.
This has resulted in first-year costs being ca 2x of what was expected.

Re:iDesk

[AmiMoJo]

All publicly funded apps should be for free, open source operating systems, unless there is a really good reason for them not to be. Android, mobile Ubuntu or Linux for the desktop. Give patents live CDs for use at home, with the added advantage that with the CD the kids can't be distracted while doing homework by games etc.

Re: iDesk

[Anonymous Coward]

You get what you pay for...

Re:iDesk

[antdude]

Are iPads required in that school?

Re:iDesk

[Plumpaquatsch]

All publicly funded apps should be for free, open source operating systems, unless there is a really good reason for them not to be. Android, mobile Ubuntu or Linux for the desktop. Give patents live CDs for use at home, with the added advantage that with the CD the kids can't be distracted while doing homework by games etc.

And since you brought it up, you should be forced to provide the course for free. And since it will be crap, you should be tarred and feathered. Sounds like a great plan.

Re: iDesk

[Anonymous Coward]

Considering how cheap houses have been over in your country I,m kinda surprised the Beemer driver didn't own her own place, though having said that, she probably lives better off rent assistance. She may even own a few houses but is better off renting those out and getting assistance for her own rent. Basically if you give it out, they will come.

Re: iDesk

[Anonymous Coward]

Not to mention that one of the lessons you get on an ipad is how to get your textbooks for free. A life lesson that will continue to help throughout the kid's college years.

Re:iDesk

[ecotax]

Are iPads required in that school?

Yes, at least in practice, they are.

Re:iDesk

[demonrob]

It is moronic not to. Daughters' school implemented this this year (in Australia). Cheaper than text books, lighter in carrying than the full bag the older one had to transport the year before, more effective. I was doubtful early, but it has to be considered a success. Apple - Ipad -> yeah we can hate apple, but give me another suggestion that would work better? Apple did it back when I was a kid making a good education environment, and it seems they've done it well here again.

Re:iDesk

[stephenmac7]

It seems you forgot there would be this capitalistic incentive called competition. Where there are multiple providers competing for customers, quality increases and price decreases (unless the voucher already covers the whole price. In that case, that's basically the bottom limit for lowest price). Unless the industry became regulated to the point of destroying most businesses (your comment about "get lawmakers to enact barriers to entry, preventing smaller schools from being able to get by": see Insurance and ISPs) there would be competition, pushing educators to cut wages (you make that sound like a bad thing!), provide an excellent education, and even help the economy in the meantime. Yes, school might be a little harder. Yes, teachers would be paid less (they're overpaid as it is). But no, the quality of education would not suffer, unless the industry became highly regulated.

Re:iDesk

[danudwary]

Actually, the rich are effectively getting a LOT more of your tax money now than the poor are.

Re:iDesk

[morgauxo]

Resolution is a silly difference to get all worked up about. Web developers have dealt with it since the dawn of the web. Actually, so have desktop applications since the begining of the personal computer! Using HTML controls it is really easy to make an interface that looks good at a wide variety of sizes. It just takes a bit different of a mindset. A computer/tablet/phone should not be designed for like it is a printing press rolling out identical pages of dead trees! It's ok if something looks a little different on one screen vs another so long as it looks good and is usable.

I've never used 'iBook Author'. Is there really no similar product available for other platforms? If not it's not a techical issue, surely there could be one. Actually, going back to the HTML idea, there have been no-code WYSIWYG editors available forever now. How would one handle the 'interactive' part? I don't know but admitting I have never seen it I am skeptical that iBook Author actually allows significant interactivity without some form of coding. Making something interactive means you have to tell it when the user does this... do that. It's a series of instructions. That's exactly what programming is! Maybe Apple did a good job sugar coating it? If so, they are hardly unique in doing so. Just look at wiring or lego mindstorms for example. People have been making programming look less like programming since Logo but it it still comes down to 'the more power you want to give the user the more complicated for the user it will be'.

"And they have little incentive to do anything else, as the iPad is the usual tablet that schools use." Ok... which is the cause, which is the effect?

Ultimately what I see schools doing today is using public tax dollars to ensure a generation of kids grows up using one company's products. This is not a good way to ensure healthy competition and innovation in the future.

Re:iDesk

[BasilBrush]

A computer/tablet/phone should not be designed for like it is a printing press rolling out identical pages of dead trees! It's ok if something looks a little different on one screen vs another so long as it looks good and is usable.

That's the web philosophy. And where that is all that's required, then of course people do web sites.

However when producing educational textbooks, authors DO want complete control of what is on each page, and they want that without it arbitrarily needing to be scrollable if used on a device with too narrow a screen.

A well designed educational ebook is a far better experience than a web-site.

As to the interactivity bit - go take a look. iBook Authors has been reviewed and there's bound to be youtube videos too. The point is that the kinds of interaction of an ebook are in 99% of cases of only a few specific types. Zoom a part of a page. Play a video. Respond to touch. Replace one image with another. Do a quiz. So these things don't need a general purpose language. You just need the right widget, and feed it some data and some options.

Of course of you need something not in the standard set, then a new widget can be written. But that's an unusual case, and an author wouldn't typically do this themselves. From an author's POV it's all no-code WYSIGYG.

Elgan is a Google sycophant; biased in the extreme

[postbigbang]

That Computerworld let's him have the forum when Elgan has an IV of Google connected to his femoral artery just blows my mind. He's also the ex-editor of Windows Mag and not exactly a neutral observer of this stuff.

Is a Super-Sized iPad the Future of Education?

[Anonymous Coward]

So you want to turn millions os school children into Sith apprentices?

Re:Is a Super-Sized iPad the Future of Education?

[noh8rz10]

not possible, because there can be only one master and one apprentice at a time. when the master dies the apprentice assumes the throne / CEO position.

Betteridge says...

[areusche]

No, it won't.

Re:Betteridge says...

[Anonymous Coward]

How can giant ipads, and chromebooks, not solve education across the nation?

Tablets will be good in education

[rolfwind]

Idk, I don't think for kids bigger is better. I guess I know when I see it, but the current iPad is already heavy after a while for my hands.

But tablets in general will be awesome in education coupled with programs like DuoLingo. Some kids really need to learn at their own pace (with a minimum requirement), that factory like schoolrooms just don't provide.

But as much as I like Apple tablets, not for school. Just too expensive. I bought from Aldi a 7" $99 medion brand tablet for family recently (free and clear, no 2 year plans attached), and I'm impressed how competent it is. Not the most beautiful screen, some things take several clicks, and battery life isn't an iPad.... but it plays netflix, has skype and most other programs, and surfs the net, and google's voice to text was surprisingly good. $99. I was blown away. Who knows how cheap they will get. If a kid breaks or loses that, who cares compared to an iPad.

Re:Tablets will be good in education

[Pumpkin Tuna]

As someone who does classroom technology in schools, you are right about the size. The iPad screen size is just fine for the majority of K-12 uses. I don't know what "too small for collaborative work," even means.

Re:Tablets will be good in education

[jbmartin6]

Can you point to any studies that show these things are an advantage in education for the regular student? Just curious, I have seen some older data that suggests they are not, but that was regarding PC usage. I have a nephew with an eye problem who I think has benefited from the school-issued iPad, but he mostly plays games on it just like everyone else.

Re:Tablets will be good in education

[Pumpkin Tuna]

That depends entirely on how the devices are used and how you want to measure progress. The problem, as with much of education in this age of "reform," is that people always want to measure how well something is working by looking at test scores. I think all that shows is how well you take a test. Still, there is some decent research. Here's one summary.

http://schooltechleadership.org/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2012/06/CASTLEBrief01_LaptopPrograms.pdf

There have been some notable failures of 1:1 programs. There are other failures in progress. I think LA's iPad rollout is going to crash and burn. In most of the instances I've seen, the failures come when they throw the devices into the classroom and don't train teachers to fundamentally change the way they teach. I've seen it done right. When that happens, the teacher stops being the sage on the stage and works more as a guide while students solve problems and use a variety of tools.

Re:Tablets will be good in education

[rolfwind]

No.

I'm just a user of DuoLingo (free, highly recommended, Rosetta Stone is scared to death of this shit) on my tablet as well as Khan Academy. I advanced way more in my language effort on this than any other way, at least for beginner/lower_intermediate purposes.

Although both can be used on a regular computer too and smartphone.

Re:Tablets will be good in education

[mcgrew]

Agreed, I just don't get this "bigger and bigger" crap. My friend's son's laptop is HUGE, must have a 25 inch screen. Meanwhile, mine's about the size of a notebook (the old fashioned paper size). It's a lot easier to carry around, which is the idea behind laptops in the first place.

As to tablet size, most screens I have read from are 4.5x7 or 5x8, depending on whether it's a paperback or hardcover "screen".

I have to agree with "why Apple?" too. The tablet I bought my daughter last summer was a little over a hundred bucks, and I've noticed that Apple products break easily. I haven't seen too many cracked Androids, but it seems like half the Apple phones I've seen are cracked.

Honestly, I just don't see the value in an iPad when a tablet that's more suitable and durable is far cheaper.

Re:Tablets will be good in education

[BasilBrush]

Thanks for the pointer to DuoLingo. I've been looking for something that makes my French learning feel like playing a game. So far DuoLingo looks promising.

Rosetta stone is shit. I doubt many people learn much from that. And it's so overpriced.

Up to now the best I've found was Assimil. But as a book and CD experience it seems so old fashioned.

Re:Tablets will be good in education

[Anonymous Coward]

No $99 tablet is good. At that price point it's guaranteed to be a hunk of shit.

The best value you're going to get in a tablet is still a Nexus 7.

Re:Tablets will be good in education

[jbmartin6]

Thanks, too bad DuoLingo doesn't have Mandarin Chinese.

Re:Tablets will be good in education

[jbmartin6]

I got the whole RS course for $230 on sale, this is overpriced? I've found it reasonably effective, with practice. I have never heard of Assimil though, I will take a look.

Re:Tablets will be good in education

[jbmartin6]

don't train teachers to fundamentally change the way they teach

An excellent synopsis of your point I think. Throwing money and technology at education doesn't necessarily improve results, no matter how you measure them. You made me recall Flip Teaching which seems to me might be a good approach for leveraging things like iPads.

Re:Tablets will be good in education

[BasilBrush]

It seems terribly overpriced to me. But then self-study language courses tend to be.

And I found it terribly slow to cover material. Way too many repetitions of the same old stuff.

Assimil is a French company, so their courses tend not to be so commonly stocked at bookstores as American and English companies. But they do courses to learn various languages starting from English. They were recommended to me by a German polyglot, and I have found the French language one to be excellent. Though as I say, it's a shame there's not a computer version.

iPads do support HTML5

[MikeMo]

TFA is a bit fact-challenged. Safari on the iPad is not a "mobile browser" and supports HTML5 (although it could do better).

Re:iPads do support HTML5

[Daniel Hoffmann]

It is easier to develop HTML5 applications for iOS than IE9 and IE10. I have not tested IE11 much to draw any conclusions from that.

Re:iPads do support HTML5

[mwvdlee]

iPad is a mobile browser based on other capabilities than just HTML5 support.
For web developers, the most significant is probably the touch screen, closely followed by the relatively small viewport.
A rich website (i.e. "web app") build for desktops will most likely not work on an iPad, the mobile version of the site will.

Re:iPads do support HTML5

[MikeMo]

Certainly touch support is significant (and is a rather obvious difference, no?) as is the small viewport, but these differences are not significant limitations and don't make it a "mobile browser". To me, the term "mobile browser" brings up the specter of the old browsers one typically found in phones before the iPhone, and it certainly isn't that. Aside from the size and touch issues, there are no major distinctions from the desktop version of Safari. Apple doesn't even bother to have a separate page of specs for the two browsers.

I have implemented two rather complicated web apps and Safari ran fine. Just make sure you don't depend on mouseovers and keep all of the element sizes dynamic (which you should do, anyway), and you're set.

Re:iPads do support HTML5

[Anonymous Coward]

IE10 runs HTML5 just fine. Quit being a boner

Re:iPads do support HTML5

[dfghjk]

"To me, the term "mobile browser" brings up the specter of the old browsers one typically found in phones before the iPhone..."

So the problem is your understanding of what a mobile browser is.

The iPhone, in fact, defined the first mobile browser. Prior to that, phones tried to make browsers work just like desktop versions.

Re:iPads do support HTML5

[RetiredMidn]

iPad is a mobile browser based on other capabilities than just HTML5 support.

I agree with the previous reply that "mobile browser" suggests a significantly less capable browser than Safari on iOS (iPad or iPhone). One frustration of using iOS Safari is that too many web sites unnecessarily decide the browser is "mobile" and re-directs to their dumbed-down "mobile" variant, requiring me to specifically ask for the "full site", which typically works fine.

Re:iPads do support HTML5

[Bogtha]

TFA says nothing of the sort; it was the submitter that said that. Safari on the iPad is a mobile browser (the actual name of the application is "Mobile Safari" FFS), and it is a bit more limited than desktop Safari, although it won't matter for the vast majority of websites.

Re:iPads do support HTML5

[Bogtha]

Then you're using the term in a different way to everybody else. Safari running on iOS is a mobile browser. Every web developer I've worked with refers to it as a mobile browser. Popular web analytics systems refer to it as a mobile browser. Even Apple call it "Mobile Safari".

Re:iPads do support HTML5

[POWRSURG]

I assume the parent was referring to IE's use of pointer events instead of the touch events. While many may accuse Microsoft of trying to split the web, this move was most likely done for two reasons.

1. Apple has been working to patent touch events
2. The ability to simplify event handling with one type of event that is input method independent -- working for mouse, touch, and pen.

As a web developer I find the pointer event method to be technically superior to touch events. At present, patches to add pointer events to Blink-based browsers (the patch might have been added before the split from WebKit) and to Firefox exist, but I do not believe they have yet landed in other browsers. Sadly, with the lack of touch events it does bloat up code to support two different event models for touch browsers at this time.

Yes!

[amiga3D]

To heck with schools. I think I'd like one. Finally large enough to be able to use. The market for tiny devices for people with microscopic vision is saturated. Time for a tablet people can actually see. I looked at an iPad but it's just too small. The mini is okay as a book reader but I can use anything for that, no need to spend that kind of money on a book reader.

Re:Yes!

[swb]

I'd buy one even larger if they came out.

I've always thought the standard iPad size was a little on the small size, and that ideally it would match the size of a large magazine (Vanity Fair-size).

This would allow a lot more content to be viewed at "actual size" and cut a lot of scaling, panning and zooming.

Re:Yes!

[Anonymous Coward]

Get glasses you useless crippled dumb fuck. If you can't see stuff on a standard tablet you're legally blind.

Re:Yes!

[antdude]

For me, I still want a physical clicky keyboard. I am not a fan of touch screen for typing and stuff. I wished Apple would make those combinations like MS Surface (removable keyboards with the tablets).

Re:Yes!

[Anonymous Coward]

Removable keyboards for iPads are not difficult for find. Many of them don't even suck.

Need a stylus for math class

[sjbe]

Tablets for school make a lot less sense if you cannot write equations or draw detailed diagrams with them. A fingertip is simply too blunt an instrument to be used for writing equations or drawing - for that you need a stylus. I would dearly have loved to have a tablet for note taking when I was in school but not if I had to do it with my fingers. A keyboard is fine for taking notes if you are in something like an english class and a finger based touch interface is fine for navigation and reading. But to take notes in math class (or any class that uses equations or drawings) you absolutely have to have a stylus. I'm not sure how they are going to reconcile this problem in the current generation of tablets. They simply were not designed with a stylus in mind.

Note that not having a stylus isn't entirely a bad thing. Software developers have a terrible habit of mistaking a stylus for a mouse. A stylus should not be used for navigation. The sole purpose of stylus should be for drawing (diagrams, equations etc) which requires detail greater than can easily be achieved with a mouse or fingertip. While a stylus can be used for navigation, it does a pretty poor job of it.

Re:Need a stylus for math class

[qubex]

I don’t really agree with that I’ve been using the full gamut of Computer Algebra Systems (CAS) ranging from Macysma to Mathematica to HP Prime for years, and I find text-only entry to be very comfortable. Mathematica even has photoshop-style palettes if you wish to choose familiar notations.

Don’t confuse mathematics with mathematics notation. The latter is totally arbitrary and can easily be replaced, most obviously by the various prefix notations common in CASes ( Integrate[x^2,x,a,b] , for example).

Re:Need a stylus for math class

[jones_supa]

A fingertip is simply too blunt an instrument to be used for writing equations or drawing - for that you need a stylus. I would dearly have loved to have a tablet for note taking when I was in school but not if I had to do it with my fingers.

It is technologically possible. The Microsoft Surface tablet can be used with a stylus.

I would love to move to a large stylus-capable tablet for schoolwork!

Re:Need a stylus for math class

[ecotax]

Tablets for school make a lot less sense if you cannot write equations or draw detailed diagrams with them. A fingertip is simply too blunt an instrument to be used for writing equations or drawing - for that you need a stylus.

No you don't. You just need decent software. The MyScript Calculator app (just google it) does a decent job, for example.

Re:Need a stylus for math class

[ChunderDownunder]

If the Surface Pro and Galaxy Note can steal thunder from iOS devices then Apple may be forced to react. But don't hold you breath; Jobs was no fan of the Newton.

Re:Need a stylus for math class

[sjbe]

You just need decent software.

None exists to my knowledge. I honestly cannot conceive of any way you could reasonably take notes requiring fine details using your fingertips. There is a reason we use fine tip pencils instead of big bulky markers to take notes.

The MyScript Calculator app (just google it) does a decent job, for example.

Utterly useless for note taking. That is an app for processing a single equation, and not even especially bulky ones at that. Furthermore it actually is a calculator which misses the point entirely. When you are taking notes or working through a calculation you are not trying to have the computer solve the problem for you. You need to essentially make a very detailed drawing, nothing more. (an equation is simply a drawing) The best tool for this is a pen or stylus due to the standard math notation in use.

Re:Need a stylus for math class

[jedidiah]

Include this with all of the other use cases that Apple has classified as irrelevant. Of course should Apple ever change it's mind, it will suddenly become one of Apple's great innovations.

Re:Need a stylus for math class

[ecotax]

You just need decent software.

None exists to my knowledge. I honestly cannot conceive of any way you could reasonably take notes requiring fine details using your fingertips. There is a reason we use fine tip pencils instead of big bulky markers to take notes.

The MyScript Calculator app (just google it) does a decent job, for example.

Utterly useless for note taking. That is an app for processing a single equation, and not even especially bulky ones at that. Furthermore it actually is a calculator which misses the point entirely. When you are taking notes or working through a calculation you are not trying to have the computer solve the problem for you. You need to essentially make a very detailed drawing, nothing more. (an equation is simply a drawing) The best tool for this is a pen or stylus due to the standard math notation in use.

Point taken - taking math notes and using a calculator are different activities. The app I mentioned definitely won't help higher classes in taking math notes.

Still, a note-taking app with an input method like in this calculator app (which, AFAIK, indeed does not exist yet) might work just fine. The input resolution of the iPad screen as a whole is quite OK, and the lack of detail in a finger drawing can largely be overcome by accepting oversized input and scaling this down, and some good gesture recognition, as the calculator app demonstrates - just like your big bulky markers are fine for flipover boards.

Re: Need a stylus for math class

[Anonymous Coward]

Or , don't draw to scale; interpret a big s gesture as integral, sideways m as summation, two finger t as PI, etc

Or just speak
' for x equals one to ninety three integrate ... Dee ex' and use the open NLP libraries that powered IBM Watson to parse and display equations

Re:Need a stylus for math class

[Anonymous Coward]

So get a Samsung Galaxy Note then. The stylus works very well - and fingers work too.

Re:Need a stylus for math class

[John Bokma]

Check out https://itunes.apple.com/en/app/myscript-calculator/id578979413 . I have installed this app, I do use it with my finger, and it works very well, IMO. Children's fingers are quite a bit thinner. But one can also buy a stylus for the iPad. But I haven't needed one, so far, for this App. Moreover, zooming in (in my experience) often solves the "must have a stylus" thing in apps that seem to require less blunt instruments at first.

Re:Need a stylus for math class

[AmiMoJo]

The screen surface needs to change to better support a stylus too. Smooth screens don't provide enough resistance, especially for kids. You need friction to help control the stylus, which is why they start kids on pencils before moving to very slippery ball point pens. It's why I prefer writing with a mechanical pencil with my arthritic hands.

Wacom make some suitable hardware but I have yet to see a tablet that uses it outside of one model sold only in Japan and marketed for drawing.

Re:Need a stylus for math class

[Anonymous Coward]

Samsung Galaxy Note 10.1!

The future of education

[qubex]

The future of education is human teachers teaching human kids.

Please stop using prospective educational uses to justify technolust. There’s no harm in wanting better gadgets, but there is harm in fixing things that aren’t broken.

The best thinkers in history were educated by people. I see absolutely no reason to replace competent, compassionate humans with impersonal and inflexible machines.

Re:The future of education

[ecotax]

The best thinkers in history were educated by people.

And the best teachers in the world have always used whatever tools could help hem in that. Crayons, cave walls, scrolls, blackboards, pens, notebooks, televisions, you name it. And now they have iPads.
Not to replace them, but to assist them.

Re:The future of education

[Pumpkin Tuna]

THIS.

Re:The future of education

[Anonymous Coward]

but but but.... Apple needs a tax sponsored customer!

But yes, I completely agree with you. There's very little use in actually *going* to school if...your education is sourced from say YouTube.

Then again, I also think some schools screwed up when they moved to dry erase markers from chalk... I think chalk (and perhaps wall-to-wall-around-the-classroom blackboard is the best learning enviroment.... have an idea, go work it out on the board with symbols, pictures, etc.,).

Re:The future of education

[Anonymous Coward]

THIS.

Stop... please stop with the 'this'ing... *Try* to talk as if you're older than 12.

Re:The future of education

[Wormsign]

Because kids are already gadget-centric, teachers can more easily drum up a passion for learning by doing a portion of it on computers or other devices. Anything that drags US education up a few notches is a win, in my book.

Re:The future of education

[Pumpkin Tuna]

Okay. This comment shows great wisdom. Technology is a tool that students WILL use when they graduate high school. We should be embracing the tools that make sense and showing kids how to use them now to solve real world problems.

Wordy enough?

Sorry to have peed in your cornflakes.

Re:The future of education

[YumoolaJohn]

And now they have iPads.

Which is proprietary garbage that has no place in educational environments.

And the problem with our education system (its abysmal quality) is so deep that even new tools cannot help teachers.

Re:The future of education

[qubex]

I disagree.

Usually (though not necessarily) it makes students dependent on mysterious ‘black boxes’ and engenders them to become dependent on one implementation and it’s quirks. Technology should only be introduced gradually to provide ‘shortcuts’ for that which is already understood but tedious to perform.

And never, ever, should we promote reliance on technology. If we provide students with tablets and on-screen keyboards and spellcheckers, are we going to exempt them from having illegible handwriting and awful orthography when we examine them? Or are we going to examine them on tablets, allowing millennia of calligraphy and writing skills to be lost?

People, we’re technologists. It’s fine for us to love gadgets. It’s harmful for us to try to use technology to solve every single problem - particularly problems that either don’t exist or have arisen precisely because of technology.

Most of the most proficient education systems are significantly lower-technology than the current US system. I think that is no coincidence.

Re:The future of education

[Anonymous Coward]

Because kids are already gadget-centric, teachers can more easily drum up a passion for learning by doing a portion of it on computers or other devices.

So let's push for PS4s in schools.

Re:The future of education

[qubex]

Likely what drags US education down is the underlying notion that things must be ‘fun’ for children to do them. Most of the highest-achieving education systems are significantly less technology- and fun-orientated than the US system. And you can hardly argue that the young adults who emerge from these systems are psychologically scarred by the lack of ‘entertainment’.

Re:The future of education

[Wormsign]

Well, this country is entirely too focused on entertainment as a whole, and you are not going to turn off the flow of billions of marketing dollars companies spend every year to attract us to The Next Big Movie/Toy/Thing. So I am taking the "if you can't beat em, join em" approach and trying to at least leverage that into better learning for kids.

Re:The future of education

[KingOfBLASH]

Dude I've got to agree with the parent.

Education shouldn't have to hurt. Have you ever played with Mathematica or another technical computing platform? It can be quite entertaining making it draw shapes. And you have to use some math to do it.

Honestly if I had Mathematica back in Calculus class I think I would have been much better with that.

Of course, if all the giant iDesks are used for is to pass notes in class via instant messenger then of course it's going to be detrimental. So implementation matters quite a bit. But if they do it right, you may very well create smarter students who actually like learning.

The fact of the matter is education is changing. You now have an unprecedented access to ideas (via sites like TedTalks) and any one of the open online universities. We can take advantage of it and use technology to help kids. Or we can avoid introducing them to technology because we're not sure how it's more effective than traditional teaching methods.

But even if you ban all gadgets from the classroom, kids are still going to go home and use wikipedia to look up answers to their assignments. And then you will create a class of students who can afford technology, and those who can't. Given the amount of technology students are likely to face in the future, I think it's best if we allow kids to explore with these iDesk things.

Re:The future of education

[Anonymous Coward]

The future of education is A.I. teaching human kids. And then A.I. teaching A.I. because there won't be anymore humans.

Re:The future of education

[ApplePy]

the problem with our education system (its abysmal quality) is so deep that even new tools cannot help teachers.

Precisely. These people who would have us believe that if we just give all the kiddies some toy computer-like thingies, they'll all learn so much more... are the same people constantly trying to raise taxes because the only thing holding the kids back is a lack of money in teacher union pension funds.

Well... in the USA, we spend more money per student than any other country on the planet. If money were the problem, we'd have solved it already, and would be enjoying the finest educations known to man. Hmm... not so much.

It's not money, and it's certainly not a lack of Apple toys. The whole system is broken, from top to bottom. We have whole generations of teachers who cannot spell or construct a sentence. How did it get this way?

The educational system is not designed to educate every child to his or her potential. It's there to create mostly compliant consumers and worker drones. That's its purpose.

Oddly enough, I suppose giving every kid an iPad might work toward that end.

In the end, it doesn't matter what school district you reside in, or how much money they can throw at each child... expectations of good education from public schools are misplaced.

Re:The future of education

[ApplePy]

Those tools often become crutches. I had a chemistry teacher who used videos so often I began to wonder if she knew the subject at all. I later figured out my suspicion was correct.

If you let me use recorded MIT lectures and some iPad software, I can teach a class on particle physics, or heck, any subject at all. Or, why have teachers at all? The iPads can do it all, so we'll just project a hologram in front of the class so all the kiddies will feel welcome... and discipline will be administered by a robot with a Taser.

Technology is grand, but people need to slow down and think a bit about how and where and why we embrace it. Do we really need this? We are already seeing a drop in the ability to read and write, because kids do not read and write to learn, but rather watch.

Re:The future of education

[marcosdumay]

If it can be fun, with no loss in quality, why make it boring?

Kids certainly learn better a subject if they like it, by the way, thus all else being equal (what I'll grant you that never is), being fun increases quality just by itself.

Re:The future of education

[zlives]

>>>>>THIS

sorry couldn't help myself :)

also if you have a chance to peruse "The smartest kids in the world" by Amanda Ripley, it is a very insightful read illustrating your points backed by data.

Re:The future of education

[Anonymous Coward]

If it can be fun, with no loss in quality

No shit. The assumption "it can be fun, with no loss in quality" is flawed, however.

Re:The future of education

[zlives]

"In the end, it doesn't matter what school district you reside in, or how much money they can throw at each child... expectations of good education from public schools are misplaced."

I beg to differ, though I agree that more money does not solve the problem, expectations of good education from a public school are certainly not misplaced.
The public school I attended, had recruited and retained great teachers from all over, including some from outside the country.
The administration and the parents takes education seriously, 80 percent of students go to some sort of higher education, graduation rates are above 98%... all from a public school.

Now!! how many schools are like this? and is there will to make "it" happen elsewhere? i don't have those answers.

Re:The future of education

[ranton]

The future of education is human teachers teaching human kids.

Please stop using prospective educational uses to justify technolust. There’s no harm in wanting better gadgets, but there is harm in fixing things that aren’t broken.

The best thinkers in history were educated by people. I see absolutely no reason to replace competent, compassionate humans with impersonal and inflexible machines.

After having used MOOCs fairly frequently over the past year, I see a strong reason to have a replacement for our current education system. MOOCs are by no means perfect in their current form, but the possibilities they open up are staggering. A single lecture could be watched by millions of students. You could create 1000 lectures, give each of them to 1000 students, and test them on the material to determine which lectures are more effective. You can find out which questions were missed so you can improve even the best lectures. You can quantitatively identify different learning styles (if they actually exist), and have different lectures for students who have different styles. Hopefully in the near future if you have a class of 20 students they will be watching 20 different lectures that are custom tailored to each student.

Human teachers will still be part of this new idyllic world, but they will be able to spend all of their time doing more useful tasks like tutoring students who are struggling. Or getting to know the students and figure out ways to motive and inspire them. Or grading assignments and tests delivered in ways that AI aren't good at grading yet (like essays). Teachers do all of these things today, but they could probably do 5-10 times more of it if they aren't wasting their time doing rote tasks like lecturing.

In short, computing tools don't help much when you still teach the same way but with a little technology. But once we actually use the technology we already have to transform our schools we will wonder why we wasted so much time before we started trying in earnest.

Re:The future of education

[Anonymous Coward]

The future of education is human teachers teaching human kids.

Almost certainly not true in the long term. MOOCs can completely replace most college courses at superior quality. A similar trend will likely happen with grade school, but at a slower rate.

The best thinkers in history were educated by people. I see absolutely no reason to replace competent, compassionate humans with impersonal and inflexible machines.

It is also the case that the most successful military men in history used rocks tied to sticks as their only weapon (which was the case till the discovery of metals). All human endeavors are limited by the technology of their times. Prior to now, humans were the only option. Soon computers will probably be able to provide superior quality education than most teachers can. Teachers will play less and less a role and perhaps in many cases be completely eliminated as no longer a necessary component of education.

Re:The future of education

[phantomfive]

The best thinkers in history were educated by people. I see absolutely no reason to replace competent, compassionate humans with impersonal and inflexible machines.

I'm really wondering what you are using here for a control group......most of the best thinkers in history walked or rode horses because cars hadn't been invented yet. How can you be certain this distinction you've found is significant?

Re:The future of education

[qubex]

Thank-you I’ll look into it.

Re:The future of education

[melikamp]

It is important to distinguish between the form factor of the iPad, and the iPad itself. The former may well be extremely useful in education. But the iPad is not, as it is not indented to be an educational tool. It is not even intended to be a tool that is useful to the end user, other than by accident. It is a spy box, designed from the ground up to be both addictive and manipulative, with the purpose of ruining the end users' privacy and then scamming them.

Re:The future of education

[Uberbah]

Which is proprietary garbage that has no place in educational environments.

The garbage here is your religious fanaticism, Stallmanite. Restrict students to learning with free-as-in-Kool-Aid products and you are stunting them to pleasure your ideology.

Re:The future of education

[YumoolaJohn]

Stunting them in what way? Why should schools, which are supposed to be educational environments, use taxpayer dollars to buy proprietary software with draconian copyright restrictions, leaving kids unable to study and modify the source code, or even give them the sense that such a thing is acceptable? I do not think it would 'stunt' kids to promote the idea that people should be able to see and modify the source code by using software that actually makes those things possible.

If you're making kids use locked-down garbage, they're going to get used to being prisoners. No educational environment would promote such values. The only thing that's stunting kids are these "Intro to Windows" and "Microsoft Essentials" classes.

Re:The future of education

[YumoolaJohn]

The administration and the parents takes education seriously

Whether that's good or not depends on what their idea of education is. If it's more of the same sort of nonsense, I suspect it's only marginally superior.

80 percent of students go to some sort of higher education, graduation rates are above 98%

I see nothing truly impressive here. Quality over quantity. I wonder how much these kids are truly learning? Memorization doesn't really count in most cases.

Higher education has many of the same problems.

Re:The future of education

[Uberbah]

Stunting them in what way? Why should schools, which are supposed to be educational environments, use taxpayer dollars to buy proprietary software with draconian copyright restrictions, leaving kids unable to study and modify the source code, or even give them the sense that such a thing is acceptable?

That's the kind of religious fanaticism I'm talking about. Preventing the kids from learning about Windows or Office at school - genius! Insisting they be able to modify the source code of the device they are using, which 99.99999999% of the population couldn't care less about - genius!

If you want 8th graders to write kernel code, they can do it by opening an SSH connection to the old Pentium box sitting in the corner running Net BSD. If you insist on being a Stallmanite, at least not be a willfully obtuse one.

Re:The future of education

[YumoolaJohn]

That's the kind of religious fanaticism I'm talking about.

Anything can be said to be religious fanaticism, including your stupid opposition to what I'm saying. It's a meaningless insult.

But whatever. Continue letting kids get used to locked-down, DRM-infested garbage.

Re:The future of education

[Uberbah]

Anything can be said to be religious fanaticism, including your stupid opposition to what I'm saying. It's a meaningless insult.

Unfortunately for you, it's not meaningless if it's true. The marketplace is still dominated by Windows, Office, and other closed-source products, so by denying kids that experience you are stunting them once they get out in the real world. And again, if you really really want kids to write system code and drivers, they can do all of that over an SSH terminal to the free-as-in-Kool-Aid operating system of your choice, running on any computer built in the last 15 years.

So stop pretending that your personal product preferences are some kind of human rights issue, cuz they're not. Kids no more need access to the kernel on an iPad than they need to know how to perform open-heart surgery.

Re:The future of education

[YumoolaJohn]

Unfortunately for you, it's not meaningless if it's true.

Unfortunately for you, it's not meaningless if it's true. The amount of religious fanaticism you're exuding is simply astounding. There, done.

so by denying kids that experience you are stunting them once they get out in the real world.

Perhaps if we didn't 'educate' them to use specific pieces of software, people wouldn't come out of high school not knowing how to use any software but what they used in the past.

And this is about freedom, not education.

So stop pretending that your personal product preferences are some kind of human rights issue

I'm not actually advocating any specific piece of software. I see it as a rights issue.

Kids no more need access to the kernel on an iPad than they need to know how to perform open-heart surgery.

The option needs to be there. Maybe they'll take advantage of the source code, or maybe they won't.

I don't really see why educational environments should promote products or software that imprison the user; that doesn't seem like a good value to me.

Re:The future of education

[Uberbah]

Unfortunately for you, it's not meaningless if it's true. The amount of religious fanaticism you're exuding is simply astounding. There, done.

Not done. You have to find me zealously clinging to a fringe, puritanical belief first. I'm calling you a zealot because you are a zealot on easily-defined issues. You're throwing the term around in the same way a four year old says "poopy head".

Perhaps if we didn't 'educate' them to use specific pieces of software

How is 95% of the desktop market "specific?" Windows? Closed source. OS X? Gui is closed-source. Adobe? All closed source.

I see it as a rights issue.

Which is why you're a nut.

The option needs to be there.

Do you insist on learning how to fly before booking a trip via Southwest? Do you get a medical degree before seeing a doctor? You have nothing but an empty tautology that fits you and the five other free-as-in-Kool-Aid nutters on the planet.

If you want an iPad, don't buy one. It's that simple.

Re:The future of education

[YumoolaJohn]

Not done. You have to find me zealously clinging to a fringe, puritanical belief first.

You're zealously opposing me. It doesn't surprise me that you disagree with my assertion, as I'm insulting you.

You're throwing the term around in the same way a four year old says "poopy head".

Such as what you've been doing this entire time?

How is 95% of the desktop market "specific?" Windows?

If you "educate" people so that they can only use specific pieces of software or certain operating systems, something is wrong to begin with. Your fear of people not being able to use other operating systems (Windows) or software when they get out of school would be unfounded if we had a decent education system.

Which is why you're a nut.

Which is why you're a nut.

Do you insist on learning how to fly before booking a trip via Southwest? Do you get a medical degree before seeing a doctor?

What's this nonsense got to do with the ability to look at and modify source code? Another benefit is that you can inspect it to see that it doesn't do anything nefarious, like, for instance, remove copies of people's books (1984). That didn't happen with the iPad, but it is a mere example.

You have nothing but an empty tautology that fits you and the five other free-as-in-Kool-Aid nutters on the planet.

So you say.

If you want an iPad, don't buy one. It's that simple.

I never bought one, and never will. But this is about educational environments using taxpayer dollars to buy locked-down, DRM-infested products.

I fear a monoculture

[Alain Williams]

whatever that monoculture is based on, especially in education. Pupils will just end up learning how to drive one device, become familiar with its applications (and implicitly whatever file formats and wire protocols underpin it) and conclude that everthing else is broken. They will then demand/expect future employers to use the same kit. We don't want the next 25 years to be dominated by Apple in the way that the last 25 years were dominated by Microsoft.

I even would not want a school system that had a monoculture based on some Linux distro, it is good for kids to have to understand what they are doing rather than just knowing which buttons to press - blindly. OK: Linux is not as bad since file formats & protocols are open and thus different products can compete.

Re:I fear a monoculture

[Pumpkin Tuna]

Agreed. As someone who works in schools with technology, the vast majority of us hate monoculture. Ironically, the Apple and Google products we are getting are actually the first steps out of a Microsoft monoculture.

Keep in mind, many, many school systems have been hard pressed for cash lately and are mainly using 6-10 year old machines running WinXP.

I'm doing my best to push Chromebooks, Apple and anything else that makes sense.

Re:I fear a monoculture

[supercrisp]

As a professor, I'd welcome a monoculture. I'd love for all my students to have the same machine with the same OS and the same apps. Otherwise, every class with a computer component becomes a class in teaching half the students how to change systems settings or whatever on different machines. The average student doesn't have any great computer competence, despite the "digital natives" hype. They can get on Facebook or use Google, but inserting a header in a document or hooking up to an external monitor is beyond them. I can really understand why other educators would want a "monoculture." (However, I think the emphasis on computers in education is misplaced and overhyped. My students, at the college level, would benefit much more from learning touch typing and a few basics than from whatever malarky they're being taught now.)

Re:I fear a monoculture

[Anonymous Coward]

This is EXACTLY why apple is pushing for this!!! You may think monoculture is bad, but it's amazingly great if you're the company at the center of that monoculture.

Heck, Microsoft managed to screw up just about every product in the last decade, and yet it's still amazingly profitable---all thanks to the drones who just cannot be productive without Windows and Office, simply 'cause that's what they learned to use in school.

Re:I fear a monoculture

[Alain Williams]

If the students are not competent with the tools that they have then should your college not provide remedial classes ? They would if a student could not speak English (or whatever) or had problems in writing or maths. It should not be down to you as a professor in something (I assume not computing) to provide that education - but down to your college.

There is an unfortunate assumption made by many employers (also colleges, etc) that people do understand how to: use a computer file system; use a word processor; write emails that others can understand; ... This is often false (or their knowledge is rudimentary) with the result that huge amounts of time are wasted. These skills need to be taught - unfortunately many school teachers that I have come across only have a hazy understanding themselves; these skills are rarely taught to adults.

Re:I fear a monoculture

[Pumpkin Tuna]

Well, you are right that the "digital natives" thing is ovehyped. I see students all the time who can't type their way out of a paper bag. The problem we run into is that teachers at all the levels UNDER you also say "I think the emphasis on computers in education is misplaced and overhyped." I hear this all the way down to kindergarten where they say the parents should be the ones teaching kids to type, not the teachers because the emphasis on computers is misplaced. In my state, the legislature just passed a law requiring us to teach the kids cursive. If it were up to me I'd spend enough time on cursive to let them sign their name and then dive right into keyboarding. That's just me though.

Re:I fear a monoculture

[Anonymous Coward]

If the students are not competent with the tools that they have then should your college not provide remedial classes ?

People who don't know how to use a word processor or tablet can take classes at the adult learning center; and they won't need a Pell Grant to afford it.

If my college gets any more remedial it will be outpaced by my elementary school. Can't solve x+2=3 for x? Don't know the difference between "then" and "than"? Maybe college just isn't the place for you.

But those hopeful freshmen in Math 114 and College Life 101 are the ones bringing in all the money. Instead of turning them away, the school dumbs down the curriculum and hopes that a third of them will still be around next year.

Re:I fear a monoculture

[Miser]

Signed in to pile on more agreement.

Back when I was in school, it was Apple // 's - then IBM (genuine, model 20's, 30's). I had an account on a VAX, then an Alpha and learned VMS a bit. Concepts were taught, not just what button to push. How to solve a problem in BASIC, Pascal, etc. Not just in one language. Now, I can sit in front of Windows, Linux, OpenBSD, VMS, and even a 3270 session and be able to navigate. I can use Word, WordPerfect, Open/LibreOffice and be able to make a document or spreadsheet. I see too many people out there that just know one system, one operating system, one way to do something and it's scary.

As they said in Star Trek II: "You have to learn WHY things work on a starship." :)

Miser

Re:I fear a monoculture

[tompaulco]

As a professor, I'd welcome a monoculture. I'd love for all my students to have the same machine with the same OS and the same apps. Otherwise, every class with a computer component becomes a class in teaching half the students how to change systems settings or whatever on different machines. The average student doesn't have any great computer competence, despite the "digital natives" hype. They can get on Facebook or use Google, but inserting a header in a document or hooking up to an external monitor is beyond them. I can really understand why other educators would want a "monoculture." (However, I think the emphasis on computers in education is misplaced and overhyped. My students, at the college level, would benefit much more from learning touch typing and a few basics than from whatever malarky they're being taught now.)

Well, this is because modern "computer" classes in High School don't teach anything useful. When I went to High School, you learned how to program in the computer class. Now, they apparently learn how to watch youtube and how to pirate media. My stepson took the computer class at school and got an A and did not know what software to use if he needed to write a report. However, he does know how to rip videos and audio.

Title is moronic.

[no_go]

-20 , Title is moronic.

Why should any product (commercial or otherwise) be the future of education ?
The future of education isn't on buzzwords/marketing items/products with a limited shelf life.
It's on philosophies, methods and concepts.

Sorta makes sense

[motang]

Given it's ease of use, it sorta makes sense to have it in schools lower grades.

Re:Sorta makes sense

[Pumpkin Tuna]

We are slowing bringing iPads into the classroom in my district (I do tech integration with teachers) and you are right, the ease of use is great in lower grades. The big problem with iOS, is that it's primarily a one-user devices. It gets hairy to manage a class set of 30 of them. The system for buying and installing multiple copies of apps is Byzantine and glitchy too. I think those aspects will get better though.

I lean more towards Chromebooks for upper grades. If the district has a Google Apps domain, (which is free) device management becomes very smooth. The keyboard also makes it a more useful too for doing real creative work as opposed to scripted lessons (which are the devil).

Re:Sorta makes sense

[Nerdfest]

I think it's a bad idea tying yourself to any operating system that does not have multiple supplier options for hardware. Eventually the sole supplier will decide they want to raise prices beyond what you're comfortable with, or make hardware decisions that are not optimal for you. Public institutions should not be able to choose these types of solutions where more open ones exist.

Re:Sorta makes sense

[Anonymous Coward]

ESL? That should be "Given its ease of use, it sorta makes sense to have it in schools' lower grades." Your apostrophe ssems to have slid to the wrong end of the sentence.

Re:Sorta makes sense

[marcosdumay]

Gotta love a grammar nazi that does not know grammar. Take a look on the section about possessive next time.

Dell

[Anonymous Coward]

Dell already had a ludicrously large "tablet" and there doesn't seem to be any demand for it.

Though, the fact that I cannot find it on Dell's website may be the reason for low demand.

Re:Dell

[theodp]

They said the Dell Streak 5 phone was ludicrously large too, but the success of the Samsung Note line suggests it may have just been ahead of its time.

use apps not the browser

[alen]

you get a lot better performance from native apps on IOS and not the browser
and apple has a free ibooks textbook creation program to make textbooks for schools. they can even do it themselves and not buy from the big publishers

A device means nothing without relevant content.

[pillageplunder]

No one device is the future of education. In today's classroom, with the various programs the Feds have put in place (No Child left Behind, etc.) what a device like this will do is make it so very easy to define each student on how well/poorly they do in "learning" mandated curriculum by how well they do on "standardized" testing. One size does NOT fit all when it comes to being able to learn, and, as importantly, being able to apply that learned knowledge in a productive manner. Simply being able to regurgitate what you have been taught doesn't give a student the skill-set and tools needed needed to make it in the world we live in today. Take a look at the current problems with College "educated" folks who have graduated and are upset because their perfect 4.0 GPA doesn't translate to a well-paying tech job. A 4.0 GPA means you've learned how to excel in the environment known as college. That ain't what the real world is all about.

Technology is not a panacea for education's ills

[Akratist]

While I admire the willingness of the tech industry to try to find solutions to some of the issues with education, the real issue that is being missed is that education's problems, at least in America, are cultural, not technical. It's been shown in numerous studies that parental attitude toward education is the single biggest predictor in educational success. Unfortunately, we're a culture where people are focused on entertainment and sports, where parents may be working two or three jobs, and where education itself is looked at by many as a burden, instead of as learning how to use a knowledge as a tool to bring success in life.

Want one. NOW.

[Anonymous Coward]

Since Android and eReaders first came out, this is what I've wanted: Something with a large enough screen that I can comfortably read technical documents, e.g. papers published in Science and Nature, US gov't energy and environmental publications, including all tables and graphics without scrolling and zooming.

I agree that this is likely overkill for school kids, but there's definitely a market for big tablets for adults.

Bring back my beloved 17" MBP

[RogueWarrior65]

Seriously, Apple, bring back my 17" MBP or I might vote for Carl Ichan's proposal.

ergonomics

[Anonymous Coward]

Is typing on a keyboard old-school now? I tried using an iPad for filling out service reports- dropdowns and a small amount of typing. I found it cumbersome compared to a laptop.

Am I alone in thinking that tablets are good for browsing/consuming and inferior for much else when compared to a laptop or desktop?

Maybe I need to see what schools use them for and how they are the better investment.

Re:ergonomics

[Pumpkin Tuna]

Agreed. I work with tech in schools and I find the iPad great for consumption, but only fair for creation. The apps themselves are making it easier as we go along, but a keyboard is always preferable, especially in upper grades.

iPad Maxi

[Anonymous Coward]

I can't believe nobody posted this yet...

Lifespan of iPad's too short

[Anonymous Coward]

Many educational people I have talked to have said the iPad is simply not supported long enough to be practical for many schools. In many instances most Mac's and PC's schools use are on average needing a 5 to sometimes 7 year replacement cycle. iPad's and even Mac's today have a poorer lifespan then the PC side. The district my wife teaches in replaced Mac's with PC's years ago for just this reason. Tablets altogether seem to have a shorter lifespan then a PC. They also face more breakage and they are much harder to repair if they can even be repaired. Many schools see Chromebook's as a alternative because they are much less costs per unit then say a iPad and even though they also face a dated lifespan. They appear to be more popular on the price alone. I still question the durability of any tablet in a school environment.

Re:Lifespan of iPad's too short

[Anonymous Coward]

The district my wife teaches in replaced Mac's with...

The man's wife is a teacher and he's ignorant enough to use a grocer's apostrophe? No wonder education is in such bad shape.

Sorry, AC, I call bullshit. College educated women seldom marry high school dropouts.

Not just a large tablet...

[jddeluxe]

There are making a 12"+ item, it's just not going to be strictly a tablet.

The move to a 64bit CPU was a step to merging iOS/OSX; this is the next logical step: a product to replace or supplement the MacBook Air, large tablet form factor with Apple quality detachable keyboard capable of running both iOS and OSX applications.

Don't expect it to be inexpensive...

Re:Not just a large tablet...

[WillAdams]

Of course, one could buy such a thing now:

http://www.modbook.com/

For my part, I picked up a Tablet PC and am working on getting OS X 10.6.8 installed on it.

Re:Not just a large tablet...

[Nerdfest]

... or to be able to be able to run anything you want on it, or develop on it without paying a fee.

wrong market, if a market at all.

[nimbius]

If you think public schools that regularly chage parents for textbooks and band equipment are an untapped market for e and i devices, you're sorely mistaken.

some schools, namely those in private and affluent neighborhoods, can afford this kind of technology but they leverage far more heavily a well paid staff with ample resources and a constructive environment to teach students. the devices make no sense as the target audience has parents that have already purchased the newest tablet or e-reader for them. the readers may be purchased by the school and thats ok, so long as we recognize it for what it truly is: squandered potential.

urban and underfunded schools, the majority of educational facilities for america, will not be investing in this technology anytime soon. Vending machines, advertisements, channel 1 news, and ASVAB military testing provide urgently needed revenue for arts programs and science equipment in a learning environment that hasnt seen so much as a new coat of paint since the carter administration. e-readers and tablets are neat but they dont contribute to the emergency fund to repair the boiler in the winter, or repair 30 year old desks.

Re:Technology is not a panacea for education's ill

[qubex]

I absolutely agree.

Let’s remember that all those figures in history (both recent and remote) whom we admire were educated the old way: by one-on-one contact between educators and children. Tech industry’s drive to replace that quintessentially human bond with mechanistic devices strikes me as fundamentally misguided.

Wanting better technology is fine. However the best technology for dealing with people (particularly kids) is still other people.

It seems like we’re on the verge of institutionalising autism.

Tablets will make a difference

[Anonymous Coward]

the paper kind, though. This push for electronic tablets in school is ridiculous. Kids don't need tablets, nor computers. There is too much reliance on these devices and less on actually teaching children. Take a look at the top countries for education and see how much technology they are using. I'm betting it isn't a media consumption device for every child. They have their places as a supplement, but not a full time tool.

Re:Tablets will make a difference

[Pumpkin Tuna]

From a principal’s publication in 1815: “Students today depend on paper too much. They don’t know how to write on a slate without getting chalk dust all over themselves. They can’t clean a slate properly. What will they do when they run out of paper?”
From Rural American Teacher, 1928: “Students today depend upon store bought ink. They don’t know how to make their own. When they run out of ink they will be unable to write words or ciphers until their next trip to the settlement. This is a sad commentary on modern education.”
From Federal Teachers, 1950: “Ballpoint pens will be the ruin of education in our country. Students use these devices and then throw them away. The American values of thrift and frugality are being discarded. Businesses and banks will never allow such expensive luxuries.”
From a science fair judge in Apple Classroom of Tomorrow chronicles, 1988: “Computers give students an unfair advantage. Therefore, students who used computers to analyze data or create displays will be eliminated from the science fair.”

Re:Tablets will make a difference

[Joe_Dragon]

how much tech do you need to tech the test?

Re:A device means nothing without relevant content

[Pumpkin Tuna]

QFT

I'm a former classroom teacher whose job is to work with other teachers to integrate technology into their instruction. My primary goal in life is to prevent the horror situation you describe.

We try to show teachers models of integrating technology so deeply into instruction that it becomes another tool (kind of like how most of us use it at work). We also push teachers to introduce the tools, present problems to the kids, and then let THEM choose the tools they use to solve those problems.

If you are interested here's a link to one of the models we use.

https://sites.google.com/a/msad60.org/technology-is-learning/samr-model

Re:Elgan is a Google sycophant; biased in the extr

[Anonymous Coward]

Humor attempt fail

Re:Elgan is a Google sycophant; biased in the extr

[postbigbang]

Dude, understand what an intraveneous abbreviation is. IV, as in his freaking veins.

Jup...

[Anonymous Coward]

Here you go: http://static1.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20110327012855/victorious/images/7/72/RobbiePearPad.jpg

12.9 is not "super sized"

[Lumpy]

Call me when it's 27" or 32+ inches. THAT is super sized. I personally think the smallest should be 40" and the desk surface.

but at that point it really needs to not be iOS anymore or the nasty windows 8 single task idea. Back to real multitasking where I can slide apps around and slide data to and from, etc.. I should be able to bring up my photos, and pick a photo by dragging it to the app I want to use it in, say Email or whatever.

The biggest problem is that all the OS and software makers need to stop being shiny little babies and use A SINGLE STANDARD for file transfers so I can easily flick photos from my phone to my desk when I set it on it. Stop with this retardation that is closed special ways of doing things to force lock in.

Re:12.9 is not "super sized"

[Electricity Likes Me]

Having just spent 20 minutes trying to figure out how to get a photo on an iPad to my Android phone (both devices having wi-fi, bluetooth, internet connectivity) I cannot agree with this enough.

I mean sure, yeah, it's possible but the solution I landed on was "download BitTorrent Sync app and use that" - which did just work in the end. Of course the iPad was the real problem in this chain - hand over your credit card details to iTunes to download anything, and then are you going to get to use Samba or FTP? Haha, of course not!

Re:12.9 is not "super sized"

[Anonymous Coward]

Haha, of course you can you big liar!

As long as you stick to free apps, there's no need to hand over your credit card details. And there's dozens of iPad apps that do SMB or FTP, including free ones (though I'm partial to the $5 Files Connect). For direct device-to device sharing, Feem for iOS and Feem for Android are great and free.

Re:12.9 is not "super sized"

[Electricity Likes Me]

I can confirm as of like, yesterday that this is not the case. iTunes dutifully demanded my Apple ID, then demanded my credit card details to download a free app. At the very least it's well hidden.

A Larger Surface Pro 2 + Type 2 Cover + Pen...

[theodp]

...would be great, aside from the price tag. :-(

Re:Elgan is a Google sycophant; biased in the extr

[Anonymous Coward]

I for one can't wait to buy all my children chomebooks. HAHA. How did we ever educate our kids in the past.

We already have a standard math notation

[sjbe]

I find text-only entry to be very comfortable.

That makes you very unusual. While I applaud your flexibility on the matter, it is not nearly so easy a matter to get the entire global population on a new mathematical notation. Frankly I have zero interest in using a different notation when doing so provides me no additional value. Putting a stylus on to a tablet is a MUCH easier solution for note taking than trying to retrain everyone on some new notation. Those who have a specialized need for different notation (such as yourself) are not hindered in any way by providing technology to utilize the standard notation.

Mathematica even has photoshop-style palettes if you wish to choose familiar notations.

VERY awkward for note taking which needs to happen quickly. You need a notation that can be done with a pencil and paper and which does not change.

Don’t confuse mathematics with mathematics notation. The latter is totally arbitrary and can easily be replaced

I'm not confusing them a bit. We have a standard mathematical notation already which works just fine. Yes it is arbitrary and no it cannot be "easily" replaced. You are seriously proposing that we suddenly have everyone throw out the math notation we have been using for centuries just because it doesn't easily work on a keyboard? The economic cost alone makes this a prohibitively bad idea. Do you have any concept of the amount of retraining that would be required? Providing a stylus and some decent note taking software is a MUCH cheaper and simpler and better solution than trying to retrain everyone to some new keyboard friendly notation. Look up what Richard Feynman had to say about changing notations when he tried to invent one.

Re:We already have a standard math notation

[Electricity Likes Me]

For the first 3 years of my undergrad degree program I used one of the convertible laptops from Toshiba back when Microsoft was pushing pen computing. Taking notes in maths lectures with that thing and a stylus worked fantastically because of the simple "easy erase" functionality which meant I could scribble things out, then erase them and leave my notes in a more comprehensible form.

It wasn't a great platform by any stretch (underpowered hardware, and ultimately the screen was way too fragile - even under warranty you can't depend on something like that then spend 2 weeks without it while it's repaired) but even just with the very basic hand-writing system it was a great way to work.

Re:We already have a standard math notation

[qubex]

I hadn’t realised (and don’t quite accept) that I am unusually ‘flexible’ in using text-mode mathematical entry. Indeed I think you’ll find that if you consider the sum total of programmers and spreadsheet users most non-academic users of mathematics are already using non-traditional notations for mathematics (though, I do readily admit, spreadsheet formulas and program statements are not terribly convenient for deriving symbolic statements).

Notations do change, have changed, and will change again - consider for example the switch from Roman to Arabic numerals. That brought a huge boost in convenience, sufficient to promote the adoption of the unfamiliar new notation.

Anyway, it is education that we are talking about here. Quite distinct from the fact that I do not believe adding more technology to the mix is the solution to a (non-existent) problem, I think you’ll agree that since education teaches ex nihilo, we can easily teach new learners whatever new notation we please, and it will be accepted by them as the norm. Provided they are sufficiently acquainted with the old notation to translate from it (and into it) if and when the need arises, there is no disconnect in their experience.

Re:We already have a standard math notation

[qubex]

Oh, and regarding note-taking: I’d argue that there’s a strong distinction between the need to record notes and the ability to use those notations in an ‘active’ or ‘computable’ form. Until very recently there was no ‘self-computing’ notation at all simply because everything had to be processed by a human. The idea that a notation should be machine-readable is obviously a fairly recent one (whether by ‘recent’ you imply either Turing or Leibnitz is fairly irrelevant in the grand scale of things). Arguing that notation must be machine-readable and ‘standard’ is somewhat inconsistent.

Standard mathematical notation is wildly inconsistent already (witness the confusion that arises when students first encounter subscripts and ‘powers’ in tensor notation); I don’t see any reason why this inconsistent ad-hoc hodgepodge should be protected to the extent of impeding further advancement.

Re:We already have a standard math notation

[sjbe]

Notations do change, have changed, and will change again - consider for example the switch from Roman to Arabic numerals.

You are talking about a change that occurred many hundreds of years ago. It would be FAR more difficult and costly to implement a similar change today. It's simply an installed base problem. The advantages of switching have to be enormous. You'll have a hard case to make that switching to a keyboard friendly math notation would have anywhere near the level of improvement in convenience or functionality in your example. I'm not arguing that it is technically impossible, merely that the costs outweigh the benefits so much that it is absurdly unlikely to happen. Remember, we are JUST talking about note taking here which is basically drawing. We're not doing computing here. I have seen no technology for taking notes in a math class that improves on a pencil/pen/stylus because those are the best tools we have for detailed drawing. Use the right tool for the job.

I think you’ll agree that since education teaches ex nihilo, we can easily teach new learners whatever new notation we please, and it will be accepted by them as the norm.

The problem isn't new users. The problem is the old ones which is the vast majority of the population. You are simply NOT going to get people who have already learned the current math notation to switch en-masse. Even the teachers would have to switch and I'm pretty sure they won't want to without a damn good reason. Hell there is a reason no one except for engineering geeks use RPN calculators which is a relatively modest change. You think changing the entire notation is going to gain acceptance? Not bloody likely.

Re:We already have a standard math notation

[qubex]

Practical users of math have already switched by virtue of the fact that programming applications or spreadsheets requires entering formulas in a textual format.

And how can you imply that enjoying the benefits of a computer do not qualify as a massive advancement? Infact it’s such a massive improvement that practical users of mathematics have already switched.

Couples maybe, but not schools

[Anonymous Coward]

I can see a place for a 12.9" iPad. It'd be great for a couple snuggling up on a couch to watch a movie or, paired with a Bluetooth keyboard, great for working on the go as a laptop substitute.

But for kids in schools--no way. My iPad 3 is plenty big for interactive apps even with my adult-sized body and hands. Something larger would be too much for kids. It'd overwhelm them as well as being too heavy to hold in small hands.

An iPad for school kids needs to be a lot more rugged and it needs to come with a built-in handle much like my Neo 2, which is for school kids but does well for adult on-the-go writing.

Re:Couples maybe, but not schools

[tompaulco]

I can see a place for a 12.9" iPad. It'd be great for a couple snuggling up on a couch to watch a movie

What? So someone is going to have to hold it so it will be close enough to see. That would be extremely uncomfortable, and having a hand occupied defeats the purpose of snuggling together on the couch. Also, I have a 10 inch tablet and I find the screen too small to watch a movie on.

Re:Technology is not a panacea for education's ill

[Wormsign]

Ok, so mask education as entertainment by moving it to a device kids already associate with fun. That will be far easier than changing a culture with billions of dollars in marketing fighting against you every year.

I hope not

[kelemvor4]

As a parent of school age children, I sure hope this doesn't find it's way into schools. For years, kids were taught on Apple products. Which was fine for getting through class. When the kids got a job and needed to use a computer, they didn't know how unless they took it upon themselves to learn outside of the institution.

You can't teach kids to use "computers" on toys. They might as well be giving the kids something from vtech or Nintendo.

Re:I hope not

[Anonymous Coward]

Yes, those Apple computers with their windows and their mice and keyboards and their Microsoft Office suites and their Adobe creative suites... so vastly different from the interface and apps on the Windows machine your kids will end up in front of when they get their secretarial jobs that your kids just won't be able make the change. Tragic (that your kids are so inflexible).

Computers will NOT solve education anytime soon

[gweihir]

This stupidity has now been going on for something like 20 years. All it has to show is a lot of wasted money. Conventional education needs good teachers. Anything computer-based needs excellent teachers that are highly computer-savvy and excellent software in addition. The needed kind of teacher is no nearly available in adequate numbers and that will not change. The computer side is not available at all.

Jobs is no longer with us

[sjbe]

If the Surface Pro and Galaxy Note can steal thunder from iOS devices then Apple may be forced to react. But don't hold you breath; Jobs was no fan of the Newton.

Last I checked Saint Steve is no longer in charge of Apple.

Plus I think his animosity towards the Newton had more to do with it being a mediocre product that few people really wanted and also maybe the fact that it was John Sculley's baby. If the Newton had been selling like crazy Jobs would not have been likely to kill it off but it simply wasn't a sufficiently profitable product. There were things to like about the Newton but the rollout was badly flubbed, it was expensive, and it wasn't clear who it was designed for. Too small for note taking, too bulky to be a PDA, limited networking ability (and the internet wasn't really a thing for the masses yet), poor device for media consumption, useless as a PC replacement, etc. They made a lot of design tradeoffs and the result was a device that tried to be all things to all people and achieved just the opposite.

No.

[Anonymous Coward]

For one thing, this isn't a technology issue; it's an issue to do with the quality of education. Stupid garbage like iPads can't solve that.

Second of all, proprietary garbage has no business in an educational environment. It does not promote education, and it acts as a prison for the users; exactly the opposite of what should happen in a school. Schools should be free software only.

Re:Technology is not a panacea for education's ill

[YumoolaJohn]

The real issue is that combined with the fact that schools focus on rote memorization and teaching to the test.

"Educational success" means little if the education you're getting is piss-poor, like it is in most countries. Grades (mere letters) are rather irrelevant at this point.

Nothing education centric about these

[onyxruby]

I worked at a University for a few years where we had thousands of staff tablets. I can assure you that the tablets never got used for anything other than consuming content, status symbols and brief emails or notes. Even when they were actually used to produce content it's always easy to tell when an email was written on a tablet due to the short and abbreviated way it was composed.

If your in school you should be there to produce content (homework, research etc) and for that a tablet is the worst choice possible, and it's no different for industry or government. It's the one thing Microsoft got right about the Surface, give it an integrated keyboard to make it feasible to actually produce content. Without the keyboard your left with a consumption device or a status symbol.

That being said, if Apple makes a 12.9" tablet, there are a lot of people that would buy it for a content consumption device just like they do with any other apple tablet. Apple should make it just for all the people that would appreciate a larger tablet for lounging around the house with and it would do quite well there, especially if it gets the upgraded screen that was talked about. But don't fool yourself into thinking that a larger tablet would have a damn thing to do with either education or producing content.

Not just kids

[Anonymous Coward]

I have wanted a bigger iPad for a couple years. Give me something about the size of a legal pad that I carry to meetings now. The key is getting one thin and light enough that carrying a laptop does not make sense.

Picture is wrong.

[h4x0t]

Why would they orient the screen so the student has to look down at it? That would cause some serious neck pain. It's not a 2 kilo text book, it's a wall. Orient it with some ergonomics in mind. If anything, the enemy's gate is down.

Simple answer

[daem0n1x]

No.

Re:Simple answer

[Morpeth]

I wish they'd delete all replies other than yours, then lock down the thread -- because it's a silly debate (no single piece of tech will EVER be THE future of technology)

Re:Simple answer

[Morpeth]

that last 'technology' is supposed to be 'education'

They should...

[bradgoodman]

Put a (USB) keyboard and mouse connector on it - and maybe a stand to hold the screen upright. Maybe instead of "tablet" or "laptop" the could call it a "desktop"...

Re:Elgan is a Google sycophant; biased in the extr

[ISoldat53]

He is age biased. Smaller tablets are hard to read. My older friends will not use their tables because of the small format. A larger pad would be welcomed.

tablets suck for education

[whistlingtony]

Part of educating is creating, messing up, creating some more. Tinkering. Ipads(and all tablets really) SUCK at creation. They are content consumption devices. They are nothing more than smart TVs in your hand. Stop giving them to kids!

Can I code on a tablet? No thank you. Can I pick one up in shop class and do the math to figure out the angle of a roof beam? No thank you. Can I sketch out a new idea? Maaaaaybe? Can I easily take notes on it? No thank you. Can I use it to take pictures of all the steps in a chemistry or physics experiment? Yes! Can I use it to record all the temperatures from said experiment? No thank you. Ok, yes, I can do all those things, but it takes FOREVER on a tablet.

Sad fact, to do meaningful work, tablets need KEYBOARDS!!!! To consume media, all I have to do is point and click. To CREATE(at any sane speed), a keyboard is necessary.

Get off my lawn!

Re:tablets suck for education

[Anonymous Coward]

"Can I pick one up in shop class and do the math to figure out the angle of a roof beam?"

The best calculators I know of are on my phone and my kids tablet. What you can do when not constrained with physical keys and a high res color screen is amazing.

Re:tablets suck for education

[Uberbah]

Part of educating is creating, messing up, creating some more. Tinkering. Ipads(and all tablets really) SUCK at creation. They are content consumption devices. They are nothing more than smart TVs in your hand. Stop giving them to kids!

Errr wha? Get a bluetooth keyboard and you can use them to write essays, fiction, music. Amazing portraits have been made with iPhones, much less iPads. $5 gets you a fully functional painting program, saving on art supplies and even the educational price of Illustrator.

Can I code on a tablet? No thank you.

Dig out the bluetooth keyboard again and get an SSH app. Then connect to the linux box running on an old celeron at the school.

Can I pick one up in shop class and do the math to figure out the angle of a roof beam? No thank you.

Okay gramps, slow down before your hurt yourself and forget to mow that lawn. A $5 app can get you an A or a B in a Calc I course and maybe pass Calc II. Differential and integral calculus, 3d cartesian and poloar graphing, linear algebra, and even equation solving:

fsolve(exp(x)2x2= 0;x=10::10)
-> [0:53983527690282;1:4879620654982;2:6178666130668]

two cheaper tables joined together?

[peter303]

Several eyars back MicroSoft toyed with the FlipBook tablet - two page-size tablets side-by-side and foldable. You could fold it to fit into a purse or briefcase. An author could make one tablet text dominant and the other graphics dominant.

Barnes and Noble had similar split screen tablet at one time, except one screen was LCD and the other e-paper employing the advantages of each.

Nearly all of my desktops the past 15 years have had 2 or 3 full size screens. I put code on one side and the applciation on the other. Or browser on one side and text terminals on the other.

Re:two cheaper tables joined together?

[Anonymous Coward]

Are you talking about that Courier vapourware video? Search for knowledge navigator to see an Apple vapourware video from the mid-80's.

why not bypass the whole issue

[RobertLTux]

somebody needs to create a tablet with a pico/nano projector builtin and then if size of the screen is an issue

FIND A BLANK WHIT{E|ISH} WALL!

heck requiring new tablets to have "a commonly available video output with no restrictions on display devices other than matching input hardware (example microHDMI)" would be a decent solution.

iPads in schools = 100% about DRM

[Anonymous Coward]

iPads in schools have nothing to do with technology. Every iPads in schools effort I've seen have used the iPads to deliver DRM content form education-industry publishers. Publishers won't have to compete with their old textbooks if they can get schools to buy their content in digital form. The DRM license will be a permanent part of a school's budget in a few years. The publishers want schools to adopt temporary, disposable content that has to have its license renewed each year. For parents, it's an easy sell because of the technology angle - your kids will have no future if you don't buy new technology! We get a steady drumbeat of articles in the press (hoax news?) about how stupid American kids are compared to the rest of the world. This is not accidental, because these articles are placed by the education industry.

I'd rather have Dover math books, myself, but I'm not part of the education industry!

No, tech alone will not save education

[boteeka]

--rant--

I am always amazed how everyone seem to think that throwing money at the educational issues will somehow solve them. The biggest problem is not with the lack of funding in general especially in western countries (although there are exceptions).

The biggest problem lies much deeper than that in the fabric of society itself. Parents just want the state to take the problem of properly raising their children away from them. They send their children to public schools and expect that the children will be educated so they don't have to do it themselves.

Look at the standardized testing system. It is utter BS. The notion that all children across a country or even across borders have to be tested against (more or less) the same set of standards is just nonsense. It's a tool of the establishment to dumb them down and make everyone conforming and easier to control.

Add to this this kind of corporate agenda pushing like give children iPads. Sure Apple gets to make a good money on it and expand their market share and vendor lock-in while the taxpayers will subsidize the cost for little or no benefit for the children. Even if we agree that tablets are useful in education, why does it have to be iPads? A single brand of tablets? And arguably the priciest.

And what sorts of things can you use a tablet to enhance education? Provide cheap/free textbooks which won't wear out? Doesn't happen, because of copyright issues. You will have to sell a copy to all children. And every couple of years the textbooks get rewritten so that somebody makes more money on it. In the days when I was a kid, the school issued paperback textbooks which were re-used year after year until they were completely worn out.

You would think that with the digital textbooks all this is solved: no wear and tear, you can make many copies of it for absolutely no cost, can be upgraded whenever necessary for free. Guess what: it does not happen! Even worse, it probably costs more nowadays then back in the days. Just because of stupid copyright issues and the push for constant consumption for the benefit of a few large corporate entities.

--/rant--

Anyway, Happy New Year to all of you, fellow Slashdotters!

Re:No, tech alone will not save education

[Anonymous Coward]

Easier to get gadgets funded or subsidized than quality teachers

HTML5; book rental

[tepples]

In an ideal world, all courseware would run on all tablets.

Then make this ideal world by making courseware in the subset of HTML5 accepted by Safari for iOS and Chrome for Android. That was Apple's plan for the first-generation iPhone and iPod touch anyway.

While in principle I agree it would be better if you could pick your own tablet, this is nearly as unrealistic as saying you could pick your own books - it's just not going to work in a school situation.

Here in Indiana, students in K-12 public school tend to rent their books from the school district instead of buying them.

No

[WillyWanker]

You don't need iPads in the classroom. School districts would be better off hiring more/better teachers and funding extra-curricular activities than they would spending millions on hardware that is easily broken, stolen, and has a limited lifetime of less than 2 years. There are so many better ways to spend that kind of money. Apple has enough money. They don't need more from our already pathetically underfunded school systems.

Re:iDesk - Money Source?

[Anonymous Coward]

Not a problem for many of my teacher wife's kids: many of their parents (when they can be found) can hardly pay for rent, food, clothes, or medical care for their kids (takes away from their cigarette and drug money y'know). Unless welfare will add paying for these lovely iFads, ain't gonna happen at her school. Besides, she would have to keep some of them from using the pads as frisbees - no parental discipline, no child discipline - the schools are so overwhelmed with that social trend, they have to apply triage, and just focus on getting the most dangerous ones away from the rest. And this is an elementary school!

Touch support is significant

[tepples]

Certainly touch support is significant (and is a rather obvious difference, no?) as is the small viewport, but these differences are not significant limitations

Touch support is significant if your menu is hover-based, as is the case with JavaScript-free pure-CSS menus that were popular before the iPad became popular. A Wacom tablet can distinguish proximity ("hover") from contact ("click), but the iPad's touch screen cannot, and touch-based browsers tend to wait a few hundred milliseconds to make sure the user isn't trying to use a scroll or zoom gesture.

Re:Touch support is significant

[thoughtlover]

A Wacom tablet can distinguish proximity ("hover") from contact ("click), but the iPad's touch screen cannot, and touch-based browsers tend to wait a few hundred milliseconds to make sure the user isn't trying to use a scroll or zoom gesture.

The delay could be ignored if the pad sensed a stylus in the hover-zone (thus ignoring contact with the side of the hand). I'd like to see something like this to replace a Cintiq so I could draw wherever I wanted. However, I want to use it for 3D apps and Photoshop, so iOS definitely isn't going to make the grade. Why ol Stevie didn't make something like this to cater to the creatives at Pixar, I really can't say. Apple's been ignoring the creative pros for some time and FCP X was the final smack in the face. I think they're headed toward the bloated product lines and lack of forward-thinking they suffered after the board fired Jobs in the 80s.

Hover, SWF, WebM, and file uploads

[tepples]

I agree with the previous reply that "mobile browser" suggests a significantly less capable browser than Safari on iOS (iPad or iPhone).

That's what it used to mean. Now it means one that doesn't support hover, SWF, WebM decoder plug-ins, or uploads through <input type="file"> of media types other than pictures and videos.

One frustration of using iOS Safari is that too many web sites unnecessarily decide the browser is "mobile" and re-directs to their dumbed-down "mobile" variant

Worse yet, too many web sites redirect to the main page instead of the article that the user found through the search engine: "Hi, I'm a server!".

no pony in the race

[zlives]

just an observation about your comment "I think all that shows is how well you take a test", in life (get off my lawn) i have noticed that we are continuously presented with challenges and are gauged on how we perform on the said "tests". IMHO the ability to take the test (preparedness) is a good ability to have to be successful in life.
Granted it is just one set of skills necessary for success and there are many others.

Re:no pony in the race

[BasilBrush]

Depends what you do in life. For average worker bee employees you are right. But there are plenty of entrepreneurs that are terrible at "tests". They excel at doing things their own way, thinking out of the box, and having people skills. Likewise plenty of creatives are terrible at tests, for similar reasons.

Tests are there to categorise people. They're not great at picking out high performing individualists.

Re:no pony in the race

[zlives]

If we take your argument as logically true, the percentage of student worker bees (hey I resemble that remark, a little) that would benefit from a test oriented education system still out weighs the creative/entrepreneurial (hey I resemble that remark, a little).

Further " there are plenty of entrepreneurs that are terrible at "tests"" and there are just as many that are great at tests.
I would suggest that test "results" are there to categorize people because all people are not created equally. I might fail at a math test but excel at creative writing test. I might fail in art drawing but excel at gymnastics competition. A test is no more than a teaching and learning process, how we choose to and utilize the results of said tests is a different question altogether.

Now if we take standardized testing and try to mold every student in one image and then tie funding to the results... then i agree we are just setting up to fail.

Lots of issues with iPads in education

[CohibaVancouver]

While iPads have made good traction in K12, education is still looking at other technologies, for several reasons -

a) Standardized testing. In most cases, standardized testing still requires the use of a device with a physical keyboard. If Chromebooks get approved for this purpose they will likely take off even more in K12.

b) Cost. iPads remain an expensive choice when budgets are constrained. It's safe to assume a new uber-iPad will not cost less than existing solutions. While Surface RT devices are laughed at by Slashdot, their price point is difficult for education to resist.

c) Manageability. The 'sticky' provisioning profiles that are (supposedly) coming with iOS 7.1 may improve this, but at its heart Apple remains a consumer company. They seem incapable of designing devices where manageability is taken out of the hands of the end user. For example, users still need to tap "OK" to install apps etc. This remains a major hurdle in K12 - The recent stories from the Los Angeles Unified School District are good examples of this, and the other districts are paying close attention to LAUSD's experiences.

d) Theft recovery. Unlike Windows & Android (e.g. Samsung) platforms there are still no good solutions for recovering stolen iPads which have been factory-reset post-theft. When a thief knocks a kid over the head and steals his device, catching that bad guy becomes of paramount importance.

Damn

[ranton]

I just bought my first iPad last month, and now they are coming out with the actual device that I wanted (larger screen). Looks like my wife is about to get my iPad Air in about a year.

A 13" iPad Air would be amazing. It would probably be about the same weight as the iPad 3/4 (1.4 lb) and would make reading technical books much more enjoyable. I really hope this becomes a product in late 2014.

The future is in eye-mounted displays

[davidwr]

A high-resolution, 3-D, semi-transparent image that appears to take up most or all of your field of view and which is "far enough away" that people over 40 don't get headaches trying to focus on it is going to be pretty universal in the 10 to 20 years from now time frame.

Yes, there will be other displays, in fact, such displays will be ubiquitous. Most real-world tools, appliances, gadgets, etc. will have some kind of status display and many, especially those in public places, will have advertising displays. Office walls and windows (inside and outside) will be displays. But the most common display of whatever replaces the PC/phone/tablet will be something like what I describe above.

Ultimately, unless society rejects the idea for privacy or other reasons, most people in developed countries will have a direct connection from their brain to "the network," whatever that turns out to be. Personally, I find the idea scary but probably inevitable (assuming of course civilization doesn't take a major technological step backward or die off altogether. One big asteroid hit or all-out nuclear war and it's "game over, man.").

Desk friendly computer

[locrien]

Wouldn't it be nice if we could invent some kind of computer that was easy to type on and could sit on a desk instead of holding in your hands?

Maybe we could name it a desktop computer?

Tablets are horrible learning devices in my opinion...

Why not just let iOS run on a laptop or desktop?

[Control-Z]

It's essentially the same thing.

It's on philosophies, methods and concepts.

[TheGreatMcCluck]

That might be what it should be on, but I suspect the future of education is about making children into good little consumers. So let's get those iPads into their hands as soon as possible! The earlier the better! Sure, sure, they're more toys than tools, but what good is a school system if we can't monetize it? (and for the record, I'm sick of the word "monetize" too... I'm just trying to sound like the assholes of our time...)

A4 size screen

[Anonymous Coward]

I'd buy one immediately when it gets an A4 size screen. For any amount of money.

Re: Elgan is a Google sycophant; biased in the ext

[Anonymous Coward]

I'm pretty sure all my children is off the air, but hot in Cleveland has Lucci on in a few episodes.

Not a 12" iPad

[MouseTheLuckyDog]

A 12" Glaxy note. Kids need a decent pen to sketch with.

Dell XPS 18

[Anonymous Coward]

Ladies and gentlemen, my I present to you, The Dell XPS 18 The 18" tablet!

Re:Dell XPS 18

[Anonymous Coward]

Is that page seriously suggesting that I "Add a Tablet" to my tablet order?

Give me

[terrywirth5]

network access and management or give me death. Apple needs to meld its mobile and desktop OSs. I also expect a major integration of Android and Chrome in the near future ahead of Apple, That said, they are both years behind MS. We have to give MS credit at this rare point in time--a manageable mobile and desktop OS with Win 8.1, replete with full network access and security.

Re: Elgan is a Google sycophant; biased in the ext

[Anonymous Coward]

I'd certainly buy a 15" tablet if they made one. 20". Or bigger. Just as big as possible! I think that would really make them a useable object. Not an ipad anymore I suppose but an iscreen. Lovely.

For reading sheet music at the piano?

[bbsalem]

I have been hoping for a big tablet for a long time. As a visually impaired person I'd like very much to put sheet music on one that I could hope to see and read at the piano, and to read orchestra scores anywhere. Music poses some challenges that text does not, to read and play at any speed, or to follow a performance required that scrolling the document not get in the way, although that is not a problem for any tablet that properly support gestures, size is. So, I am looking forward to big tablets and hopefully not just in a student's desk, either.

Depressing

[Anonymous Coward]

The fact that this headline question is even asked is a fucking depressing reflection of both the state of education and the continued starry-eyed devotion to muddling technologies from Cupertino

Can we all use question titles?

[dwightk]

n/t