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LibreOffice 4.2 Busts Out GPU Mantle Support and Corporate IT Integration

Billly Gates points to this basic summary of the features of the recently released LibreOffice 2.4, writing: "In catching up with MS Office, the new LibreOffice 4.2 now has full Windows 7/8 integration including Aero peek, thumbnails, jumplists, and recent documents all from the taskbar. In addition, one weak area for LibreOffice has been enterprise network support and the lack of active directory tools: LibreOffice now has GPO and active directory support for system administrators to deploy and manage LibreOffice over corporate networks. LibreOffice also includes an expert configuration Window to assist power users and system administrators when deploying to hundreds of workstation at a time." Read on for some more details about the release, including some information about support for AMD's Mantle CPU acceleration support. Also of particular interest is AMD/ATI is expecting to finally release Mantle in the next coming hours for games like Battlefield 4. Surprisingly LibreOffice also supports mantle as well according to the release notes. However you will need the 14.1 driver which is being compiled and uploaded at the time of this writing to utilize this feature. Mantle will accelerate lower-end CPUs by up to 300% in some tasks while having modest improvements for those with more recent powerful CPUs. Real niceties for those like myself on AMD phenom IIs with the later 7000 series cards.

The only issue (some on Slashdot may say benefit ) is the lack of a ribbon UI. However, for recent articles about governments considering OpenOffice this release addresses shortcomings with the new active directory and GPO support."

192 comments

  1. 2.4? by StuartHankins · · Score: 2

    4.2 not 2.4... are you messing with us intentionally, just to see who is awake?

    1. Re:2.4? by Billly+Gates · · Score: 5, Funny

      It was made in reverse polish notation.

    2. Re:2.4? by jones_supa · · Score: 2

      Also, I cannot find a citation for the Mantle support and find it odd that an office app would support something like that anyway. Also, it's not a CPU acceleration feature like the summary claims, although it frees up CPU time as being architecture-specific it is a much slimmer API than DX/GL.

    3. Re:2.4? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      That is not reverse polish.

      Why would you submit this article? This software will compete with MS Office.

    4. Re:2.4? by Billly+Gates · · Score: 2

      Also, I cannot find a citation for the Mantle support and find it odd that an office app would support something like that anyway. Also, it's not a CPU acceleration feature like the summary claims, although it frees up CPU time as being architecture-specific it is a much slimmer API than DX/GL.

      ..."Finally, the Catalyst 14.1 driver is also the first HSA-enabled driver, which allows Kaveri APUs to intelligently cooperate with a GPU to share the workload. The only supporting applications listed by AMD at this time are LibreOffice v4.2.0.1+ and Core AfterShot Pro v1.2.0.6+, but it says more will come online soon."

      It is the second link from MaximumPC.

    5. Re:2.4? by Oligonicella · · Score: 3, Informative

      Whoosh.

    6. Re:2.4? by LordLimecat · · Score: 1

      Correct me if Im wrong, but Mantle is an API like DirectX and has almost nothing to do with LibreOffice. That quote you mentioned doesnt mention mantle either, it mentions HSA which AFAICT is not the same thing.

    7. Re:2.4? by Rockoon · · Score: 1

      I thought in reverse polish it was Shoowh.

      --
      "His name was James Damore."
    8. Re:2.4? by gerddie · · Score: 1

      No, obviously it's Hsoohw.

    9. Re:2.4? by GigaplexNZ · · Score: 1

      LibreOffice uses GPU acceleration for various calculations. I'm not quite sure where Mantle plays into this, I'd have thought they'd use OpenCL, but perhaps they do use it somewhere (maybe for drawing charts?)

    10. Re:2.4? by Mitchell314 · · Score: 1

      Wouldn't that be . 4 2? :P

      --
      I read TFA and all I got was this lousy cookie
    11. Re:2.4? by exomondo · · Score: 1

      ..."Finally, the Catalyst 14.1 driver is also the first HSA-enabled driver, which allows Kaveri APUs to intelligently cooperate with a GPU to share the workload. The only supporting applications listed by AMD at this time are LibreOffice v4.2.0.1+ and Core AfterShot Pro v1.2.0.6+, but it says more will come online soon."

      It is the second link from MaximumPC.

      That doesn't say anything about Mantle, in fact the source code contains no references to Mantle and the Mantle SDK hasn't even been publicly released. Summary is wrong, the link says nothing about Mantle in LibreOffice.

    12. Re:2.4? by ChunderDownunder · · Score: 1

      I prefer the pig latin: ooshwhay

    13. Re:2.4? by L4t3r4lu5 · · Score: 1

      There isn't one. It's gone full-circle; Top results are from sites citing Slashdot saying "Mantle support" when it's only the goon who wrote the title saying "Mantle support". They actually mean OpenCL support for parallel processing of cell formula.

      Slashdot editing at its finest. Again.

      --
      Finally had enough. Come see us over at https://soylentnews.org/
    14. Re:2.4? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Reverse shoe polish or reverse wood polish? Hint for the semi-literate: Polish is a people, polish is something you use to make stuff shine. Capitalization is important in written communication.

    15. Re:2.4? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      That doesn't say that LO uses Mantle; it says that the new driver, in addition to adding support for Mantle, also enables HSA, and that LO can utilize that.

    16. Re:2.4? by salnikov · · Score: 1

      Did not you know that little-endian finally won?

  2. And for the rest of us? by Kenja · · Score: 1

    Unclear if I can get a copy without all this unwanted bloat.

    --

    "Have you ever thought about just turning off the TV, sitting down with your kids, and hitting them?"
    1. Re:And for the rest of us? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

      It may be unwanted bloat for the home user, but it's absolutely essential features in the corporate world. All it really needs is a decent component selection in the installer though to have it both ways.

    2. Re:And for the rest of us? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Unclear if I can get a copy without all this unwanted bloat.

      Yes, use vi for your documents. There's also a spreadsheet called sc, haven't tried it though.

    3. Re:And for the rest of us? by jedidiah · · Score: 3, Informative

      >> Unclear if I can get a copy without all this unwanted bloat.
      >
      > Yes, use vi for your documents. There's also a spreadsheet called sc, haven't tried it though.

      If it is a simple document, why not?

      You also don't need the proprietary network effects and malware vectors associated with more 'feature rich" alternatives.

      --
      A Pirate and a Puritan look the same on a balance sheet.
    4. Re:And for the rest of us? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Unclear if I can get a copy without all this unwanted bloat.

      Yes, use vi for your documents. There's also a spreadsheet called sc, haven't tried it though.

      I use EMACS, you insensitive clod.

    5. Re:And for the rest of us? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      EMACS and unwanted bloat in the same thread? I sense an explosion is imminent...

    6. Re:And for the rest of us? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Eight Megabytes and Constantly Swapping is a complement nowadays.

    7. Re:And for the rest of us? by dbIII · · Score: 1

      With modular stuff you can ignore bloat so long as you have enough spare disk space.

    8. Re:And for the rest of us? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yes, use vi for your documents. There's also a spreadsheet called sc, haven't tried it though.

      Screenshots?

    9. Re:And for the rest of us? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yes, it was a huge struggle for the corporate world so far. The post-GPU accelerated spreadsheet world is a world in which we can finally get stuff done!

    10. Re:And for the rest of us? by david_thornley · · Score: 1

      C'mon, get up to date. All the cool people use vim nowadays. I use vim and (if necessary) LaTeX for my document needs.

      --
      "When you have eliminated the unacceptable, whatever is left, however improbable, must be the truthiness" - Holmes
    11. Re:And for the rest of us? by hobarrera · · Score: 1

      Also, unclear what happened to Linux support.

      The LO is only gradually changing to look (and work) more and more like MSO, in order to make MSO users more at home. Of course, those of us who never used MSO, have nowhere to turn, and it looks like most of the feature on these realeases actually just target windows too.

      Looks like we'll need a new Office suite for Linux and non-MSO users?

  3. How compatible is it? by JDG1980 · · Score: 0, Troll

    Can LibreOffice guarantee 100% compatibility (both read and write) with MS Office documents?

    If the answer is no, then it doesn't matter how many other features are added, most businesses aren't going to use it. You can't risk the possibility that a PowerPoint slide in your quarterly board report will show up as garbage because of a compatibility issue.

    1. Re:How compatible is it? by iggymanz · · Score: 2, Insightful

      logic fails you

      if a business used LibreOffice, the board would be using LibreOffice Impress to view LibreOffice Impress documents and giving presentations with the PC hooked to the big screen running LibreOffice Impress.

      Maybe some loaner using PowerPoint would have their slide looking like garbage in such a company....

    2. Re:How compatible is it? by Karl+Cocknozzle · · Score: 0

      "PowerPoint" is a Microsoft Office phenomenon... If you standardized on LibreOffice you wouldn't be creating "powerpoints," and your board-room projector station would presumably also be running LibreOffice, making your concerns basically meaningless because you wouldn't be using PowerPoint to create the presentation, and you wouldn't be using PowerPoint to present the presentation. So why should I be worried, again?

      And even if you "have to have" PowerPoint for some ungodly reason (it's a crutch for people who don't make good speeches or presentations--work on your skills don't just cling to the crutch/band-aid for your lack of those skills) you can buy one or two copies retail without signing the six-figure Microsoft enterprise agreement...

      --
      Who did what now?
    3. Re:How compatible is it? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Nobody can, at least until Microsoft opens up their entire API library. Until then, when someone gets close enough to endanger Microsoft's cash cow, they will change just enough stuff to keep them at arm's length. Repeat ad nauseam.

    4. Re:How compatible is it? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Nobody can

      Not even Microsoft, which is pretty funny. Transferring files between versions of MS Office or between Windows and Mac versions often results in garbage layouts/formatting. It's really quite sad on Microsoft's part. I worked years as an audio-visual tech to know that this is very true. When a client wanted do to a PowerPoint presentation with a laptop provided by us, we always had to ensure the versions matched.

    5. Re:How compatible is it? by gman003 · · Score: 4, Informative

      Even Microsoft Office does not guarantee 100% compatibility with older documents. And I've personally witnessed simple things breaking between MS Office on a Mac or on Windows.

      When I dug through some very old Office 98 docs of mine a few years back, Office 2007 broke rather badly, but OpenOffice was able to read them. I'm sure it wasn't pixel-perfect, but it was readable and more-or-less as intended, unlike Office proper.

      As far as trading between various offices, I've noticed more problems with Office For Mac than with LibreOffice. Granted, most people in my office are using either Google Docs, iWork or LibreOffice, but we get a fair number of outside docs that were made in MS Office.

      For most uses of Word (glorified RTFs), everything is compatible. I've even had no issues going from AbiWord to MS Word. If you get crazy with auto-summaries or embedded docs, it might get problematic, but do you really use those? Presentations are much the same, although I've not worked with them nearly as much (because I do real work).

      For spreadsheets, its a bit more hit-or-miss. If all you're doing is glorified CSVs, once again everything works, but the crazier your formulae get the more likely it will only work in one program.

    6. Re:How compatible is it? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      So having switched to LibreOffice companies conference halls wont be updated because DOOM.... and this won't be checked by your it staff before important events because DOOM.... at worst you would have to print it as a PDF, or run it off a laptop machine with LibreOffice installed.

      The real problem is the lock in cost of dealing with old systems built for the old version and everyday irritation of less important documents from partners. This is different for different organisations and at least some of this can be solved by making fixes in house or by a consulting company for a fee. With office pro costing less than £11 off £400 (more than the price of most business machines screen and all) you need to consider the cost more today than ever, so we will see in time....

    7. Re:How compatible is it? by StuartHankins · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Yes and no. Even between Office 2007 and 2010, documents don't always look the same... we have run into this for pretty simple documents. I have no idea why it's so ridiculously complicated that even the software provider can't get it right, but I'm guessing it has more to do with trying to intentionally hurt interoperability than anything else.

      Call me a cynic, but I've been around for a very very long time and I've seen a lot of poor sportsmanship in the Microsoft camp.

      The funny thing is now we're intentionally using older versions of MS Office simply because everyone hasn't learned the 2007 version yet, so what's the use of overloading everyone by going to the newest version every 2-3 years? The couple of users who will benefit can have the upgrade. The rest can have an upgrade every x versions.

    8. Re:How compatible is it? by MightyYar · · Score: 2

      We manage to deal with the incompatibilities between different versions of Office, so I think we could handle LO/OO if my company chose to do so.

      --
      W..w..W - Willy Waterloo washes Warren Wiggins who is washing Waldo Woo.
    9. Re:How compatible is it? by JDG1980 · · Score: 4, Informative

      Nobody can, at least until Microsoft opens up their entire API library. Until then, when someone gets close enough to endanger Microsoft's cash cow, they will change just enough stuff to keep them at arm's length. Repeat ad nauseam.

      All of the MS Office file formats, both legacy binary and OOXML, are publicly documented. The binary documentation, I think, was released at the insistence of the European Union regulators.

      Now, it is true that the formats are really badly designed and inelegant, and that there are a lot of MS Office "guts" spilling out of the specs. They are not easy to implement. But with enough time and effort, it should be doable. And MS is not introducing new breaking changes – to the contrary, they are finally introducing compliance with OOXML 'strict', which fully complies with the ISO standard. (MS Office 2010 can read 'strict' OOXML documents, and MS Office 2013 can both read and write them.)

    10. Re:How compatible is it? by RobertLTux · · Score: 1

      Okay if you wanna pull that trick then Microsoft Office fails also the list (not exhaustive) of things that can futz with getting a MSO file to work correctly

      1 Different Fonts on the system
      2 any difference in the default(or current) printer
      3 version patch level and hotfix presence for MSO
      4 Language version of MSO
      5 Phase of Moon at both sites
      6 presence of any addons (includes version numbers)
      7 Applied Hotfixes/ Updates to Windows

      in fact some folks have found that opening some MSO files works better in OO or LO

      --
      Any person using FTFY or editing my postings agrees to a US$50.00 charge
    11. Re:How compatible is it? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Can LibreOffice guarantee 100% compatibility (both read and write) with MS Office documents?

      Can MS Office guarantee 100% compatibility (both read and write) with LibreOffice documents?

      (I honestly want to know; I've been using StarOffice or one of its descendants since about the time it was bought by Sun. I export stuff to DOC or PDF if I need to share it, but it'd be nice to know if that's unnecessary.)

    12. Re:How compatible is it? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Even Microsoft can't guarantee 100% compatibility with MS Office documents.

    13. Re:How compatible is it? by fast+turtle · · Score: 2

      Even MS Office can not guarantee 100% compatibility with other versions of MS Office Documents. This is especially important to know if you are more then 2 generations behind (Office 2010) is the break point. I've had issues with docs from Office 2003 being screwed up by 2010 and those are local to my system. So if I have problems with formats from 2 generations before (office 2007 doesn't give me problems) then how in hell can you ensure that your latest Office 365 hasn't been updated to actually corrupt anything other then the latest version of Office-xxxx? This is how MS locks you into using the fucking products.

      --
      Mod me up/Mod me down: I wont frown as I've no crown
    14. Re:How compatible is it? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Informative

      The real answer. The code is the spec. Not even Microsoft can guarantee 100% backwards compatiblity. They only offer compatibility. The file format version for an Office product can only be read perfectly by the same version that created it, even down to the patch level sometimes. Every newer version offers compatiblity because the code in the new version isn't exactly 100% identical to the code in the original version.

      If Office is made available on Linux Windows will get steamrolled.

      The non-Microsoft office providers should all agree on a formal file format standards with compliance testing and a scripting language like VBscript and then start pushing that standard, but it will take years.

    15. Re:How compatible is it? by sconeu · · Score: 2

      "All of the MS Office file formats, both legacy binary and OOXML, are publicly documented".

      Great. Where's the explanation of "AutospaceLikeWord95"?

      --
      General Relativity: Space-time tells matter where to go; Matter tells space-time what shape to be.
    16. Re:How compatible is it? by armanox · · Score: 2

      Sadly, the version of OOXML in 2007 (and I think 2010) is not the same as the released spec.

      --
      I'm starting to think GNU is the problem with "GNU/Linux" these days.
    17. Re:How compatible is it? by armanox · · Score: 1

      Big one that breaks PowerPoint is different screen resolutions, especially if the aspect ratio is different.

      --
      I'm starting to think GNU is the problem with "GNU/Linux" these days.
    18. Re:How compatible is it? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Informative
    19. Re:How compatible is it? by armanox · · Score: 1

      I remember there being a plug-in (from Microsoft) to add Open Office support to Microsoft Office. I remember having it installed on my old laptop (Office 2007), and know I've used it with 2010. I can't answer what it does with spreadsheets or presentations, but normal text documents do just fine. (I don't see ODT in the SaveAs on my Mac running Office 2011)

      --
      I'm starting to think GNU is the problem with "GNU/Linux" these days.
    20. Re:How compatible is it? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Interesting

      logic fails you

      Zealotry blinds you. An overwhelming majority of businesses currently use Microsoft Office products and therefore have their current collection of documents stored in Microsoft Office formats. Until LibreOffice can create, open, edit, save, or convert those formats with reliable accuracy, its adoption will be hindered significantly. Even assuming that a business had gone 100% LibreOffice, there's no guarantee any other business or individual they interact with would also be using LibreOffice, necessitating the need for compatibility with MS Office.

    21. Re:How compatible is it? by fermion · · Score: 1

      The greatest thing I found about the OO.org distribution from a few years ago was that it would open MS Office document better than MS Office. People would come to me and say they could not open a MS Word document, I would pop it up in OO.org, save back in MS Word format, and they were good to go. I assume that since the OO and LO are the same base, that those capabilities are similar. I don't know because I only recently started looking at LibreOffice. I did download a couple years ago, but it crashed. Really the main reason I never used it is because the Libreoffice people seem to have an irrational hate of OO.org, and since OO.org has save my ass on so many occasions, I don't really have any time for those who feel the need to disrespect it instead of just compete. That said, the modern OO distribution does not seem to be able to deal with the modern MS Office files. I don't know if that is MS fighting back or OO/LO not being able to keep up.

      --
      "She's a scientist and a lesbian. She's not going to let it slide." Orphan Black
    22. Re:How compatible is it? by Attila+Dimedici · · Score: 1

      No, it cannot, but then neither can MS Office.

      --
      The truth is that all men having power ought to be mistrusted. James Madison
    23. Re: How compatible is it? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I've had issues historically with the printer selected (but that was office 9x days).

    24. Re: How compatible is it? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      just as predicted, as open source program attain the slightest complexity required, the fall apart. Libre Office can't even support java properly. They are already playing the blame game for their incompetence.
      Stick to vi and a cli, you'll be fine.

    25. Re:How compatible is it? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The fact that your piece of shit comment is currently +3, Insightful shows what a fucking circlejerk slashdot is when it comes to open source.

    26. Re:How compatible is it? by iggymanz · · Score: 1

      funny, we use LibreOffice where I work, with over 400 employees...maybe your blindness is caused by wanking too much?

    27. Re:How compatible is it? by blade8086 · · Score: 2

      Really? Pretty sure you're trolling.. because this is not really an explanation:

      This algorithm typically results in the following:

              An increase in the inter-character spacing added between non-ideographic and/or number characters and certain full-width characters

              No inter-character spacing between non-ideographic and/or number characters and certain half-width characters

      *Typically* results?
      *Increase* in character spacing? how much increase?
      *Certain* full/half width characters? Which ones?

    28. Re:How compatible is it? by reboot246 · · Score: 1

      Friends don't let friends use PowerPoint.

    29. Re:How compatible is it? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      funny, we use LibreOffice where I work, with over 400 employees...

      Ah anecdotal evidence, clearly the *best* kind of evidence. And 400 people? Wow! That clearly contradicts his claim that an overwhelming majority of businesses currently use Microsoft Office products doesn't it.

      For a tech news site some people here really have their heads in the sand where the idea that one anecdotal example could be representative of the whole world.

    30. Re:How compatible is it? by Gadget_Guy · · Score: 1

      Welcome to the world of document specifications. None of them really describe what you need to implement. Remember when people criticised Microsoft's ODF support because they implemented what the spec said rather than what OpenOffice actually used? (Fortunately the spec has been updated since then)

      In the case of this tag, it is only going to be found in 18 year old documents that have been converted into XML format. I bet the number of times that it because the subject of complaint here on /. is way more than the number of documents that actually contain the tag. And then if you find the subset of the times where a few pixels different padding is actually noticed in those documents... well, I bet it has never happened.

      But all this is moot, as the original claim was that AutospaceLikeWord95 was not publicly documented, where as it clearly does have an explanation - even if there may be room for improvement.

    31. Re:How compatible is it? by cheesybagel · · Score: 1

      Neither does MS Office. It is not 100% backwards compatible with itself.

    32. Re:How compatible is it? by cheesybagel · · Score: 1

      Actually a *lot* of businesses have been changing to web services like Google Apps. Not even small ones or bleeding edge ones. I mean things like insurance companies.

    33. Re:How compatible is it? by cheesybagel · · Score: 1

      The scripting language is called Python. It can even be run from inside OO.

    34. Re:How compatible is it? by cheesybagel · · Score: 1

      The explanation is not something you can implement since it does not define a clear spec. It is vague and omits info.

    35. Re:How compatible is it? by Gadget_Guy · · Score: 3, Informative

      It is pretty uncalled for to claim zealotry when you are uncompromisingly demanding an absolute 100% accuracy with MS-Office documents before LibreOffice could be used.

      There are plenty of businesses where pixel perfect accuracy is not required when sending documents outside the company. If people really need to read my documents with absolute accuracy, then I can PDF it. If I want to test a slideshow then I can use the Powerpoint viewer (it even works under Linux using Wine).

      Even without changing the version of Word, a document's pagination can vary wildly depending on the printer driver being used. You don't even change your software for Word to go wrong.

      Excel can be a problem if you use complex macros, but 99% of the ones that I see are just being used a glorified table editors with basic calculations. I constantly move between different computers, using Excel, Calc and even the shareware spreadsheet Spread32 (when I want to view something quickly) and it all works better than I had expected. The bigger problem that I have is when a package doesn't implement a feature that you are used to. For example, if I want to search for something spanning the sheets of a workbook I will always use Excel because LibreOffice disables the "Find All" button when you choose the option to span worksheets.

      But even you there may end up being some problems, you should not dismiss the use of LibreOffice within any business environment just because you might have some formatting problem.

    36. Re:How compatible is it? by Gadget_Guy · · Score: 1

      I think that it has enough description that you could take a stab at it, but if you don't want to worry about exactly how much extra spacing to use then don't implement the feature. This is not a core feature of the spec; it is a very rare bit of backwards compatibility for software that dates back two decades. I guarantee that nobody who complains about this tag possesses a document containing this feature.

      If not knowing exactly how much white space to implement is going to be a major problem for you, then no standard office specification will be suitable. Look hard enough at any spec and you will find parts where they miss giving exact measurements. And if you don't do that, then the complaint will be that the specification is too verbose that it is unworkable.

      And once again, it is amazing how seamlessly people can move from the argument that "there is no explanation" to "that explanation isn't good enough". It is just moving the goalposts.

    37. Re:How compatible is it? by VTBlue · · Score: 2

      Really? Pretty sure you're trolling.. because this is not really an explanation:

      This algorithm typically results in the following:

              An increase in the inter-character spacing added between non-ideographic and/or number characters and certain full-width characters

              No inter-character spacing between non-ideographic and/or number characters and certain half-width characters

      *Typically* results?
      *Increase* in character spacing? how much increase?
      *Certain* full/half width characters? Which ones?

      if you read entire link, you'd see the part where it says,

      "Characters in the following Unicode ranges should be treated as ideographic, even though those characters are full-width forms of non-ideographic text: U+FF10–U+FF19, U+FF21–U+FF3A, and U+FF41–U+FF5A. [Note: This results in the unnecessary addition of space. end note]

      Characters in the following Unicode ranges should be treated as non-ideographic, even though those characters are ideographic: U+FF66–U+FF9F. [Note: This results in the omission of the intended additional space. end note]"

    38. Re:How compatible is it? by VTBlue · · Score: 1

      Its not something that a typical developer can just decide to do on a weekend. To take an honest stab requires a foundations understanding of the specification and the terminology, structures, and special cases that go along with it. To use an analogy, to randomly jump to "AutospaceLikeWord95" is the equivalent of a first-year law student critiquing complex legal contracts without understanding the framework of contract law. Contracts, even complex ones, do not fully define and cite all legal authorities from which the clauses derive its legal standings.

      Sure you can argue that an engineering specification should be written like a law, but consider the fact that the ISO Office OpenXML file format spec is over 6000 pages long. There are bound to be areas where quality gaps remain. In this case, consider the fact this particular class exists. It means that even Microsoft didn't properly document Word95 so that it could be re-implemented in a future spec. The guy who probably wrote the actual spec is long gone and it is left to a junior program manager straight out of college to decipher the re-implementation and new documentation around it. There is a reason why document fidelity between Office 97 and Office 2003 was good, because it had better documentation and planning. Pre-Office 97 formats were engineered for another era when competition was high and deadlines were more important than perfect documentation.

    39. Re:How compatible is it? by VTBlue · · Score: 1

      Yes and no. Even between Office 2007 and 2010, documents don't always look the same... we have run into this for pretty simple documents. I have no idea why it's so ridiculously complicated that even the software provider can't get it right, but I'm guessing it has more to do with trying to intentionally hurt interoperability than anything else.

      Call me a cynic, but I've been around for a very very long time and I've seen a lot of poor sportsmanship in the Microsoft camp.

      The funny thing is now we're intentionally using older versions of MS Office simply because everyone hasn't learned the 2007 version yet, so what's the use of overloading everyone by going to the newest version every 2-3 years? The couple of users who will benefit can have the upgrade. The rest can have an upgrade every x versions.

      if the document was generated or originated using pre-Office 97 formats, and were converted to Office 97-2003 formats, then there is still a chance that Office 2007 or Office 2010 can render differently. I would like to see an example where a native 2007 file looks different when opened in 2010. Yes, such examples exist, but I've only seen evidence of this produced by Microsoft in public disclosure to showcase a hypothetical. In practice 2007 and 2010 are effectively the same, with 2007 being pre-ISO OpenXML, and 2010 being ISO OpenXML.

    40. Re:How compatible is it? by cheesybagel · · Score: 1

      Competition was high with what? Tell me another prominent word processing program for Windows 95. I dare you.

      Everything else came out one year afterward and it sucked. I remember. Corel's Wordperfect back then was trying to move its application suite to Java of all things.

    41. Re:How compatible is it? by aiadot · · Score: 1

      Same thing applies for Mac vs Windows versions of Office. I mostly use a mac for research and development, but Office (alongside Solidworks) are the reasons I keep a decent Windows computer at my side. As a Ph.D. candidate, I have a horrible time with formats and template compatibility every time I try to write a paper using Office for Mac. Even boring academic/university bureaucracy documents are a nightmare on Office for mac simply because they are made on Office for windows. Simply blows my mind.

      Unfortunately, as a guy who uses LibreOffice for personal note taking, I've also seen some format errors/inconsistencies when I open an odp file on a different OS. I'm not far from knowledgeable on this subject but I suspect all those office suits rely too much on OS shared resources and GUI factors. Sometimes I really wish pdfs were more edit friendly(at least using cheap/free software).

    42. Re: How compatible is it? by VTBlue · · Score: 1

      When Word 95 came out there were many people still using WordPerfect in business environments. In fact even today there are legacy record systems that still require WordPerfect format for archiving purposes. Like many people today, people were not just jumping to the latest and greatest OS and office suite. Businesses would require many more years before they left DOS and OS/2 at the time.

    43. Re: How compatible is it? by VTBlue · · Score: 1

      Rob Weir is that you again? ;)

    44. Re:How compatible is it? by spitzak · · Score: 1

      Microsoft's attempt to make ODF useless was due to using ambiguity in the spec as an excuse to make something that did not work at all. If I remember right, some ODF applications would set a spreadsheet cell from the text "1" in quotes to the integer 1, while others would set it to a string containing the digit '1'. Microsoft then made some incredibly convoluted "logic" to twist this into a reasoning to not produce *either* of these possibilities, but produce a third that was not readable by anybody! They printed many "research papers" full of garbage to convince the PHBs that what they did was somehow logical and required by the laws of nature. Pure evil I think. Most of what Microsoft does that is bad is just due to incompetence and ignoring existing standards, but the attempts to defend the Word monopoly are obviously straight premeditated vileness.

    45. Re: How compatible is it? by cheesybagel · · Score: 1

      No. I remember that time. WordPerfect, like most other 3rd parties, took forever to port to Windows 95. IIRC part of the problem was that Microsoft was developing Office and Windows simultaneously taking advantage of APIs they had not publicly disclosed until much later so they had a much greater head start than any of the competition. Using Windows 3.1 applications in Windows 95 was pathetic. No one wanted to use them. They could not even support Windows 95 long filenames properly. I remember that quite well.

    46. Re: How compatible is it? by VTBlue · · Score: 1

      I remember it also. What you stated in your last comment does not dispute what I'm saying. Additionally Microsoft was far from monopoly back then. I was using OS/2. They had no obligation to be open. What Microsoft did back then pales in comparison to the current closed garden stuff that Silicon Valley companies have been pulling for the last few years.

    47. Re:How compatible is it? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      MS Office actually has worse reliability then LibreOffice these days when it comes to creating, opening, editing, saving and converting Office documents from a different version of MS Office

      the constantly changing format and the mac vs windows MS office file format differences are just fundamentally broken everywhere, and that definately includes Microsofts own software

    48. Re:How compatible is it? by halltk1983 · · Score: 1

      Microsoft Office wouldn't even run on my main work desktop. It runs linux. As do most of my co-workers. Instead, some of us use LibreOffice or OpenOffice, some use Microsoft Office on Windows. I have yet to open a document and have it come out all messed up. Maybe I've just gotten lucky, but it's probably more likely the case that the vast majority of commonly used functions work just fine, and if there's the occasional almost-never-used function that doesn't work right, people avoid using it.

      --
      Watch for Penguins, they eat Apples and throw rocks at Windows.
    49. Re:How compatible is it? by Bite+The+Pillow · · Score: 1

      "Work on your skills" is a crutch used by people who think PowerPoint users have time and resources to do so. And, possibly do not understand that the target audience considers you unprepared if you did not put time into making some slides, or don't happen to have a slide deck for reference.
      Sometimes, it is so deep in the culture that the best presenter ever could not avoid PowerPoint, if only as a record that something was done.

    50. Re:How compatible is it? by iggymanz · · Score: 1

      we were discussing issue of businesses choosing to change what they use, and possible consequences.

      nothing you said has any relevance whatsoever

    51. Re:How compatible is it? by iggymanz · · Score: 1

      I'd say it's more due to AC like yourself, posting venting spew with no contribution to the topic whatsoever. Are you a general failure in life?

  4. Second rates join together by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    To form a second-rate club of second rates!

  5. Universal Disgust by gr4nf · · Score: 3, Interesting

    The only issue (some on Slashdot may say benefit ) is the lack of a ribbon UI.

    The majority of Office power users I know (mostly lawyers) were disgusted by the replacement of the menu-driven UI with the infamous ribbon. It's not just left-brained Slashdotters that prefer an easily navigable interface.

    1. Re:Universal Disgust by Billly+Gates · · Score: 2, Interesting

      I am in the minority here I guess.

      I did not like the menus in office 2003 as things became nested and it kept taking up time and felt like Windows 8 closed door syndrome to use an advanced function.

      It took a week to adjust and probably a month to get really proficient. Hit the alt key if you like shortcuts? See the numbers and letters? You can use the ribbon without a mouse for any function!

      I also like the ribbon because I can visually see the changes before selecting. It is really handy when cutting and pasting from browsers and word as different styles get interpreted differently. I can preview just with a mouse hover etc.

      Some old people though do not like change and I can understand. I am not saying this is all the case with the hate. But I am visual so to me it makes sense as I am not contextual. Some who are might have to re-adjust a lot harder.

      People now use more features out of Office than before which means by all measures it is a success. It comes down to attitude to learn new things and realize not all change is bad. While I hate Metro, I do like the ribbon and view menus as old school and messy if you have too many fuctions. I do not want to go back in time and lock things the way they were.

    2. Re:Universal Disgust by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      libreoffice has sidebars (in experimental state), those are much nicer than those ribbon UI stuff. Never learned to use those ribbon's...

    3. Re:Universal Disgust by kyrsjo · · Score: 1

      Totally agree. Lack of "ribbon" UI (or at least not forcing it on the user) is a feature, not something I would miss.

    4. Re:Universal Disgust by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      The ribbon is crap for the majority of users, especially if you have a small screen. When writing docs, most of the time should be spent on writing content, not formatting. The old style menu system reflects this. With the ribbon 95% of the time it's a waste of space which takes away from actual useful space for text editing.

      Power users (like you I'd assume) might have a point, but 99% of MS Office users are not power users, and essentially use it as a typewriter with spell check.

    5. Re:Universal Disgust by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      The ribbon in Office:Mac 2011 and Office 2013 is much better. The organization is much cleaner and more logical. My biggest gripe with the previous versions was that the things you needed tended to move around a change sizes with the window size. For example, a frequently used button might be big and prominent until you resize the window a little, and then it loses its icon and becomes a tiny button just big enough for the text. Or, worse, it disappears from the ribbon and becomes part of a drop down menu attached to a different button. That seems to happen much less often for frequently used items in the new layout.

      Besides, for me, the ribbon is a tiny thing compared the problems I had with Libre-/OpenOffice when I had to write a book of lesson plans that ended up being about 100 pages. By the time I hit 25 pages, Writer would just crash when opening the document. Maybe it was just the Mac version, I don't know, but I haven't looked back. Free is great unless the free software doesn't work.

      YMMV.

    6. Re:Universal Disgust by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Sidebar is kind of a dumb name. It should be something snazzy that really captures the essence of the feature. Like palette or ribbon. Ribbon, yeah. Because it is the same things as the Office Ribbon, just vertical with collapsing panels that hide things even better than original versions of the Office Ribbon did.

    7. Re:Universal Disgust by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

      So, click the button that hides the ribbon and gets it out of the way?

    8. Re:Universal Disgust by Dr_Barnowl · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Sidebars are a much better idea on a widescreen anyway ; the ribbon just takes up valuable vertical space that's at a premium since people stopped making LCD panels for computer users.

    9. Re:Universal Disgust by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Sidebar is kind of a dumb name. It should be something snazzy that really captures the essence of the feature. Like palette or ribbon. Ribbon, yeah. Because it is the same things as the Office Ribbon, just vertical with collapsing panels that hide things even better than original versions of the Office Ribbon did.

      How about "charms" ?

    10. Re:Universal Disgust by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It doesn't matter if you're in the minority or the majority. The problem is the lack of any alternative "classic" mode for those people like me who don't like it and prefer the traditional menu layout. If LibreOffice ever does implement a ribbon-like interface, hopefully they'll have the common sense to make it optional.

    11. Re:Universal Disgust by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Best of all, in the Mac version you still have the conventional menus too. Hopefully LibreOffice would do the same thing if they ever adopt the ribbon.

    12. Re:Universal Disgust by VTBlue · · Score: 1

      The ribbon is crap for the majority of users, especially if you have a small screen. When writing docs, most of the time should be spent on writing content, not formatting. The old style menu system reflects this. With the ribbon 95% of the time it's a waste of space which takes away from actual useful space for text editing.

      Power users (like you I'd assume) might have a point, but 99% of MS Office users are not power users, and essentially use it as a typewriter with spell check.

      so just double-click on any of the ribbon tabs to hide the entire ribbon.

    13. Re:Universal Disgust by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Some old people though do not like change and I can understand... But I am visual so to me it makes sense as I am not contextual. Some who are might have to re-adjust a lot harder.

      The whole point of the ribbon IS to be contextual. Whoosh!

      People now use more features out of Office than before which means by all measures it is a success.

      Is this really a metric of success? How about, "get work done faster" or "make better documents".

      It comes down to attitude to learn new things and realize not all change is bad. While I hate Metro, I do like the ribbon and view menus as old school and messy if you have too many fuctions. I do not want to go back in time and lock things the way they were.

      Then there is NOTHING wrong with Metro. Re-adjust harder

  6. GPU acceleration for other platforms by Billly+Gates · · Score: 4, Interesting

    I submitted the story.

    While ATI has listed LibreOffice for one of the few programs that use Mantle I can not find any other information on this?

    This begs to differ if LibreOffice uses GPU directwrite or OpenGL and does it work on platforms than Windows. Of course this is not critical unless you do multimedia heavy presentations I am somewhat curious. I wonder if anyone who develops it can care to comment?

    Also I use LibreOffice in conjunction with MS Office. I can't afford publisher and it is nice to use it to repair office documents that MS Office says are corrupt. This is a highly recommended upgrade even if you use MS Office full time.

    1. Re:GPU acceleration for other platforms by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I hope you didn't use LibreOffice as a grammar checker in your response :)

    2. Re:GPU acceleration for other platforms by Nivag064 · · Score: 1

      More to the point: if he did, did he take any notice of the suggestions!

    3. Re:GPU acceleration for other platforms by edxwelch · · Score: 2

      I think Mantle is only used by games. Libreoffice is probably using OpenCL. Maybe the poster got confused because the update includes both things.

    4. Re:GPU acceleration for other platforms by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      HSA actually.

    5. Re:GPU acceleration for other platforms by 0123456 · · Score: 2

      I think Mantle is only used by games. Libreoffice is probably using OpenCL. Maybe the poster got confused because the update includes both things.

      I'm still trying to understand exactly what kind of obscene spreadhseet abuse would actually require GPU accelerated math.

    6. Re:GPU acceleration for other platforms by Luckyo · · Score: 1

      https://www.libreoffice.org/do...

      A new engine for Calc - massive parallel calculations of formula cells using GPU via OpenCL are now possible thanks to our new formular interpreter.

      Indeed it's openCL.

    7. Re:GPU acceleration for other platforms by dbIII · · Score: 1

      Older versions of openoffice/libreoffice definitely use video acceleration features in the slideshow thing - "impress". Perhaps that's where mantle comes in.

    8. Re:GPU acceleration for other platforms by exomondo · · Score: 1

      While ATI has listed LibreOffice for one of the few programs that use Mantle I can not find any other information on this?

      They didn't list it as using Mantle. The title of the article is "Mantle update, frame pacing fixes, and more arriving soon". The article first discusses Mantle, then goes on to discuss frame pacing then at the end is the only mention of LibreOffice in the article:

      Finally, the Catalyst 14.1 driver is also the first HSA-enabled driver, which allows Kaveri APUs to intelligently cooperate with a GPU to share the workload. The only supporting applications listed by AMD at this time are LibreOffice v4.2.0.1+ and Core AfterShot Pro v1.2.0.6+, but it says more will come online soon.

      At no point does it - or any other article or reference I can find - state anything whatsoever about LibreOffice using Mantle.

    9. Re:GPU acceleration for other platforms by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Where does it list Libre Office as a program that uses mantle? I can only find Libre Office mentioned in one paragraph at the end and that paragraph says nothing at all about mantle.

    10. Re:GPU acceleration for other platforms by rtaylor · · Score: 1

      Perhaps it'll help with conditional aggregates which are painfully slow in Libreoffice with only a few thousand records.

      For example, sum the $D column when the $E column matches year '2013'. Basically anything involving squiggly brackets around a SUM equation:

      {=SUM(($E$1:$E$65518=$A6) * ($D$1:$D$65518))}

      --
      Rod Taylor
  7. Even MS Offic isn't 100% compatible with itself by eladts · · Score: 3, Informative

    Anyone who tried to move files between different versions, system with different system languages or, if you are really daring, different platforms knows this.

  8. Can MicroSoft guarantee compatibility then? by dutchwhizzman · · Score: 2

    MicroSoft can't guarantee compatibility with a lot of formats either, including older versions of their own formats. Any major upgrade or change is going to give compatibility and training/skill issues, regardless of what vendor you had or will go to. Sure, it'd be really nice if OpenOffice and/or LibreOffice would actually be able to fully work with at least current MicroSoft formats without messing up some of the formatting some of the time, but if you're looking beyond that, you'll be fine once you've migrated.

    --
    I was promised a flying car. Where is my flying car?
    1. Re:Can MicroSoft guarantee compatibility then? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      MicroSoft.

      The capital S was deprecated decades ago, bro.

  9. OneNote by camperdave · · Score: 2

    What about OneNote? Anything about a Libre OneNote? It's the only thing keeping me on Windows.

    --
    When our name is on the back of your car, we're behind you all the way!
    1. Re:OneNote by JackieBrown · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Be honest... it will be something else holding you back once they have that.

      It's a nice, moving, unattainable goalpost that people like to set up

    2. Re:OneNote by Razordude · · Score: 1

      To be honest, people don't like losing things when they don't have to. If you can't get the same software (or software with equivalent functionality) in Linux, you aren't gonna move. Linux's benefits (whatever they are) don't outweigh the tangible loss of feature-rich applications. Even I can't do it and I've been dabbling in Linux for over 15 years.

    3. Re:OneNote by cheesybagel · · Score: 1

      So instead of one application suite you get two. So what? What do you want man? Is it a CMS? Get Alfresco or whatever.

    4. Re:OneNote by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Even I can't do it and I've been dabbling in Linux for over 15 years.

      Yet the majority of people in the world were comfortable able to switch to Android and iOS tablets when the opportunity became available. So much so that the big PC OEMs are busy making Android desktops to replace their collapsing PC sales.

      And frankly, though I've had less time "dabbling", than you, I took to Linux like a fish to water. It's much easier and way more consistent to use, and I can't remember a time I was unable to do something with the Linux OS/Applications stack that I would have been able to do with Microsoft's efforts.

      I suspect your problem (and that of many other FUD posters here) with Linux is that you don't want to like it, and look for any corner case you can to validate your dislike. In the mean time, you're giving Microsoft a free pass on all the risks, irritations and incompatibilities they bring to the table.

    5. Re:OneNote by mcswell · · Score: 1

      OneNote seems to me to be one of the strangest pieces of software I've seen since MS-DOS used backslashes for directory separators. Evidence: in OneNote, if a line width won't fit on the printed page, does it wrap like every other piece of software in the known universe? No! OneNote reduces the font size, until it's unreadable even by people who don't need reading glasses. Whose idea was that?

    6. Re:OneNote by Razordude · · Score: 1

      Yet the majority of people in the world were comfortable able to switch to Android and iOS tablets when the opportunity became available.

      So what? Most people have lower expectations of what they can do on a tablet compared to a desktop/laptop. Few people expect to do any serious level of word processing or image manipulation on a tablet, so the limitations of currently available software doesn't really bother many people.

      And frankly, though I've had less time "dabbling", than you, I took to Linux like a fish to water. It's much easier and way more consistent to use, and I can't remember a time I was unable to do something with the Linux OS/Applications stack that I would have been able to do with Microsoft's efforts.

      Much easier? Hell no. Some parts are easier, but some parts are a godawful mess due to people not caring about the corner cases.

      I suspect your problem (and that of many other FUD posters here) with Linux is that you don't want to like it, and look for any corner case you can to validate your dislike. In the mean time, you're giving Microsoft a free pass on all the risks, irritations and incompatibilities they bring to the table.

      Here's the issue I have - you've picked a side, black or white, and don't like the fact there's a shitload of grey in the middle. I'm not posting FUD since I experience this on a daily basis and it shits me that people like you dismiss me so easily. I don't give Microsoft a free pass on anything - they've proven themselves capable enough that most people still use and support their OS far more than Linux distros. That tells me a lot.

    7. Re:OneNote by cerberusss · · Score: 1

      LOL... first you fully commit yourself to a Microsoft-only product, then you talk about "keeping me on Windows".

      --
      8 of 13 people found this answer helpful. Did you?
    8. Re:OneNote by WillAdams · · Score: 1

      It's funny, I've been a bit Pen computing advocate / devotee for years (had an NCR-3125 running PenPoint as well as a Newton MessagePad 100), but I never warmed to OneNote.

      There's Jarnal and Xournal, but they're both more like Microsoft's Journal (based on Aha! Software's InkWriter) than OneNote.

      I did pick up a copy of OneNote 2003 for my ThinkPad running Vista SP2 though --- what should I do to make it useful? I'm still not seeing the appeal.

      --
      Sphinx of black quartz, judge my vow.
    9. Re:OneNote by camperdave · · Score: 1

      OneNote seems to me to be one of the strangest pieces of software I've seen since MS-DOS used backslashes for directory separators. Evidence: in OneNote, if a line width won't fit on the printed page, does it wrap like every other piece of software in the known universe? No! OneNote reduces the font size, until it's unreadable even by people who don't need reading glasses. Whose idea was that?

      I think it was your idea. I've never seen OneNote do that. The only software I'm aware of that does that is Microsoft Publisher, when you type into a fixed sized text box.

      --
      When our name is on the back of your car, we're behind you all the way!
    10. Re:OneNote by camperdave · · Score: 1

      Yes, I guess I did kind of shoot myself in the foot on that one. The sofware was included when I bought my laptop. I started using it, and got hooked. Now all my notes are in a piece of software with no export capability.

      --
      When our name is on the back of your car, we're behind you all the way!
    11. Re:OneNote by camperdave · · Score: 1

      A few quick things:
      1 - You can place text (or images, or whatever) anyplace on the page without having to do any special formatting or margin setting to do so.
      2 - You don't have to save your notes. That is done automatically.
      3 - Tables are easy.
      4 - You can mix text and graphics on the fly, Copy/paste a photo, and add your own circles and arrows with a paragraph to explain what it is.

      --
      When our name is on the back of your car, we're behind you all the way!
    12. Re:OneNote by WillAdams · · Score: 1

      Thanks for taking the time to respond.

      1 - I do that sort of thing in FreeHand and FutureWave SmartSketch
      2 - that's kind of nice, but I usually just sleep my machine and resume work later, not needing to save until something is done
      3 - mostly I do my tables in LaTeX and FreeHand has nifty wrapping tabs
      4 - While it's not quite on the fly, I place photos into FreeHand to mark them up.

      I can see now that if one didn't have a nice vector drawing program one preferred to use, OneNote would be essential.

      --
      Sphinx of black quartz, judge my vow.
    13. Re:OneNote by camperdave · · Score: 1

      Freehand and SmartSketch, and even LaTeX seem to all single purpose dedicated tools meant for producing output. OneNote is more of a swiss army knife/multitool for personal notetaking (classroom/lecture, collecting information, research). In other words, input. You can hyperlink between pages, tag pages for future lookup, insert files, video, audio, hyperlinks, emails, time/date logging, as well as a plethora of other things, including handwriting and OCR. Everything in one program, rather than half a dozen different programs.

      --
      When our name is on the back of your car, we're behind you all the way!
    14. Re:OneNote by mgcarley · · Score: 1

      I dual-boot Windows & Mint and was using Mint for about 18 months exclusively until I fell back to Windows due to shitty support for Broadcom WiFi in Linux (Internet connectivity circumstances changed), rather than the software (most of what I use is cross-platform anyway: web browsers, Thunderbird, LibreOffice, VLC, Skype and a few other things).

      Fortunately, I'm about to upgrade my laptop, and one of the prerequisites is that the WiFi is based on another chipset (such as Intel), so I can go back to an OS that doesn't piss me off as much.

      Most of the computers in my business - both desktops and servers - are running Linux in some form or another. Desktops mostly Mint 13 LTS and servers may be either CentOS or Debian-based depending on their function. We did have a BSD-based phone system but I think that's being shuttled on to a Debian-based machine now.

      The only Windows machines are for some specific tasks - marketing/design likes to have the Adobe suite available but that's about it. It's due to a strange form of irony that we *don't* have any Apple machines in there for aesthetic reasons (a mostly non-user-serviceable white or brushed aluminium machine in a city like Mumbai? Hah, gross! At least with PC-based machines we can just swap stuff out.)

      --
      Founder & COO, Hayai India (hayai.in) / USA (hayaibroadband.com) // t: @mgcarley
    15. Re:OneNote by WillAdams · · Score: 1

      I have everything in one file system and don't worry 'bout / feel the need to have it in a single program --- but I'll keep OneNote in mind now that I have it on my machine for a project which could make use of such an approach.

      Thanks!

      --
      Sphinx of black quartz, judge my vow.
    16. Re:OneNote by mcswell · · Score: 1

      I don't think it's me. See the description here: http://office.microsoft.com/en... and notice in particular that it says "To shrink the content to make it fit the width of the specified paper size, select the Scale content to paper width check box." The only alternative seems to be to clip the content, i.e. the content does not fit the paper. To demonstrate this, create a text box in OneNote that is fairly wide (wider than you think will fit on a printed page). Type a couple lines of text in, then print out the page. By default (with shrink off), the printout will clip the right-hand side; with shrink turned on, the font size for that text box will reduce.

    17. Re:OneNote by cerberusss · · Score: 1

      Move to Evernote. It can import OneNote, AFAIK.

      --
      8 of 13 people found this answer helpful. Did you?
    18. Re:OneNote by camperdave · · Score: 1

      So in a text box that is deliberately forced off the edge of the page, you're complaining that the text goes off the page? Not to worry, the remainder of the text is picked up on the second and subsequent pages, just like when you are printing a spreadsheet that is too large for one page.

      --
      When our name is on the back of your car, we're behind you all the way!
    19. Re:OneNote by camperdave · · Score: 1

      Evernote requires an account. I will *NOT* put my data in the cloud.

      --
      When our name is on the back of your car, we're behind you all the way!
    20. Re:OneNote by mcswell · · Score: 1

      But this isn't a spreadsheet, and there's no reason IMO not to wrap the text like every other word processing tool does. I can see that under some circumstances, someone might prefer to run the text box on to additional pages. I can maybe even see that someone might possibly want to reduce the font size to make it fit on a single page, which is the other option. I was just astonished that wrapping was not even an option, since it's been the option in every other word processing-like program I've ever used. (Not programming code, of course, but OneNote is not intended as a programmer's editor.)

    21. Re:OneNote by camperdave · · Score: 1

      The text does get wrapped - inside the text box. It works the same way in MSWord. Try it. Open up MSWord, insert a text box with some text, drag it halfway off the page, and print. The text gets chopped, this time with no option to shrink to fit and no continued on the next page.

      As you say: OneNote isn't a spreadsheet. But then again, neither is it a word processor. I guess one could call it an object processor, where the objects are text boxes, tables, images and clipart, audio and video files, html tags, etc.

      --
      When our name is on the back of your car, we're behind you all the way!
    22. Re:OneNote by deadweight · · Score: 1

      I always thought *nix was kind of a hipster affection and not really a useful OS for a desktop. But then I got a laptop with Windows 8 and I cannot tell you how much I hate that useless cell phone OS. So I tried Linux Mint and guess what - I like it! :) It looks just like Windows 7 thank God and it loaded with no issues at all. So far it seems really quite useful. The only glitches so far are playing "hunt the patches" to get Netflix to work, LibreOffice seems to be missing the Outlook equivalent, and printer setup is a trip back in time to the old days of Linux experiments. All a price I am willing to pay to get away from 8.

  10. Yet... by edibobb · · Score: 3, Insightful

    ... you still cannot perform a search and replace using manual page breaks. A simple shortcoming, but it keeps me from being able to dump MS Office.

    1. Re:Yet... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      So submit a patch.

    2. Re:Yet... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      for both kinds, ^p and ^13

    3. Re:Yet... by Razordude · · Score: 2

      Ah yes, it's just that easy isn't it?

      You have to (a) be a programmer and be sufficiently skilled in understanding the LO architecture, and (b) create said feature and hope it's accepted and brought into the mainline. With that kind of work it's much easier to just use MS Office and get on with your life. Which is what most people do.

      The guy was just complaining about a particular feature that he finds critical enough to prevent moving from MS Office to LO. Apparently simply expressing this issue brings out the idiots.

    4. Re:Yet... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      ... you still cannot perform a search and replace using manual page breaks. A simple shortcoming, but it keeps me from being able to dump MS Office.

      You can use this extension, no?

    5. Re:Yet... by edibobb · · Score: 1

      No. You can search but not replace with that extension.

    6. Re:Yet... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      (different AC) Fair enough, and I know that the subject is a word processor and not version control software, but this is a technical forum, and it's not that far out of line. Find and replace specifically shouldn't be that bad to implement. A more realistic option though might be to submit something to the issue tracker.

    7. Re:Yet... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Oh, it's being an idiot for suggesting possible solution now, is it? Well, fuck you bitch.
      (btw, i'm not the one who made the suggestion)

    8. Re:Yet... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Seriously? I thought we lost that crappy reply over a decade ago. It was a shitty reply in 1997 and it is a shitty reply in 2014. Now excuse me I have to go submit fixes for eclipse, ssh, firefox, python, and the linux kernel. After that I need to do my real job.

    9. Re: Yet... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Did this yesterday in LO

    10. Re:Yet... by antdude · · Score: 1

      Formatting for me with complex tables and stuff. :(

      --
      Ant(Dude) @ Quality Foraged Links (AQFL.net) & The Ant Farm (antfarm.ma.cx / antfarm.home.dhs.org).
  11. It still doesn't get the job done by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Open Office/LibreOffice are both so obsessed with competing against MS that they, just like Microsoft, have no interest at all in people who actually write narratives for a living. As a desktop publishing package, LibreOffice is constantly improving. As a tool for corporate administrative assistants, it may very well be wonderful. As a useful tool for someone who actually writes stories, it is becoming increasingly more of a pain in the rump that it is worth. It is a painful truth that Word 2000 (shudder) is honestly more writer friendly than anything, commercial or open source, that has been put out since then. FYI, just in case someone mentions yWrite5 and/or Scrivener (someone always does) they are not writing programs. They are organizing programs. RoughDraft, and some others like Jarte, can be used for small stories or articles. But they are old and not being maintained. Plus they lack the necessary fonts and/or other tools for modern submission requirements. Many of us would gladly invent something for ourselves, but we are wordsmiths. We don't program. So we're screwed.

    1. Re:It still doesn't get the job done by JDG1980 · · Score: 1

      Open Office/LibreOffice are both so obsessed with competing against MS that they, just like Microsoft, have no interest at all in people who actually write narratives for a living. As a desktop publishing package, LibreOffice is constantly improving. As a tool for corporate administrative assistants, it may very well be wonderful. As a useful tool for someone who actually writes stories, it is becoming increasingly more of a pain in the rump that it is worth. It is a painful truth that Word 2000 (shudder) is honestly more writer friendly than anything, commercial or open source, that has been put out since then. FYI, just in case someone mentions yWrite5 and/or Scrivener (someone always does) they are not writing programs. They are organizing programs. RoughDraft, and some others like Jarte, can be used for small stories or articles. But they are old and not being maintained. Plus they lack the necessary fonts and/or other tools for modern submission requirements. Many of us would gladly invent something for ourselves, but we are wordsmiths. We don't program. So we're screwed.

      Just curious, what specific features are needed for writing prose that aren't available in MS Office or LibreOffice? What does Word 2000 do right that later versions do wrong?

    2. Re:It still doesn't get the job done by edibobb · · Score: 1

      Some simple things, such as performing a search and replace using manual page breaks. A simple shortcoming, but it keeps me from being able to dump MS Office. Also, many frequently used functions, while still there, are less "available", meaning they require more keystrokes to use. This costs time. Also, if you can't write without the mouse, it takes too long.

    3. Re:It still doesn't get the job done by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Use macros then. If you're such an advanced user, you should be using them anyway.

    4. Re:It still doesn't get the job done by bzipitidoo · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Guess the world shouldn't have thrown Word Perfect under the bus?

      Or, how about Word Star? There was a time when its editing keystrokes were widely adopted, like in Borland's integrated development environments.

      Or, why not use LaTeX? Admittedly, it's a bit of a learning curve, but you can just bang out text, and worry about formatting later, even change it around relatively easily.

      --
      Intellectual Property is a monopolistic, selfish, and defective concept. It is "tyranny over the mind of man"
    5. Re:It still doesn't get the job done by Crayz9000 · · Score: 2

      Regex support in the Find/Replace dialog works in LibreOffice. It took a moment to familiarize myself with their implementation, but it works, and it's more powerful than anything else. Try doing that in MS Office.

    6. Re:It still doesn't get the job done by kriebz · · Score: 4, Insightful

      It took me 10 minutes of thinking and experimenting to figure out what you were talking about. Why would you have a phrase spanning a manual page break? Why are you doing formatting during authorship? Maybe your process needs to change to reflect the tools. Not the creative one, but the technical procedure you use to save, recall, and share your writing. And Word and Writer are both jack of all trades, master of none programs anyway. There's an article I can't find about how adding presentation features to the editor is a mistake. Not that your text shouldn't look pretty while you type it, but that you should never type extra spaces to make it look _just_right_. Or page breaks.

    7. Re:It still doesn't get the job done by kesuki · · Score: 1

      i am curious, wouldn't http://www.gnu.org/software/emacs/ emacs do everything you need? you said mouse less editing, and there are a lot of functions that can be added to emacs, through it's lisp programs. and easily modified nature.

      i write in my spare time, but only for my own needs and i use the mouse. i have used emacs for some of it, but i like the bloated office suites a little better and since my time isn't rationed and i don't find and replace much at all.

    8. Re:It still doesn't get the job done by the_cosmocat · · Score: 1

      > It took a moment to familiarize myself with their implementation
      hhhuuummmmmm... it seems to be a standard regex though... https://help.libreoffice.org/C...

    9. Re:It still doesn't get the job done by MightyMartian · · Score: 1

      Just curious, what specific features are needed for writing prose that aren't available in MS Office or LibreOffice? What does Word 2000 do right that later versions do wrong?

      The talent and inspiration modules?

      --
      The world's burning. Moped Jesus spotted on I50. Details at 11.
    10. Re:It still doesn't get the job done by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Ah yes, the "YouDontNeedThat" response:

      http://www.tmrepository.com/tr...

      It doesn't matter what you think he should be doing instead - if MS Office allows him to accomplish things using a particular workflow and LO requires change for no obvious benefit, then MS Office is superior.

      It's absolutely essential for people to realize that good software bends to the user, not the other way around. Proprietary developers seems to know this better than open source ones apparently.

    11. Re:It still doesn't get the job done by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Just curious, what specific features are needed for writing prose that aren't available in MS Office or LibreOffice? What does Word 2000 do right that later versions do wrong?

      The talent and inspiration modules?

      Cute one:)

      The comments in response to what I posted are a fair illustration of what I was talking about. It shows how programmers and other technically oriented people think diffferently, and work using different procedures, than story tellers do.

      As far as not formatting while writing, the answer is yes and no. You want to partially format as you go along. Otherwise you will find yourself at the end of a 150k word novel, facing the job of going back over every single paragraph and revising layout. That's what the styles setting is for. LibreOffice/OpenOffice does not handle styles well, and the settings have to be frequently revised.

      The issue that someone was trying ot explain about seach and replace regarding page breaks involves the fact that LibreOffice will not carry a search past a manual break. It stops searching. Therefore, you have to re-run the search for each separate section. If, for example, you decide late in the book that you need to make a revision to a place name, or the name of a major character, you can't simply input the new name and have it be replaced. You have to hit each section individually.

      Things like that make it less than optimum for someone who just wants to let the words flow, and worry about technical details afterward. Or not at all, if they can afford to hire an editor.

  12. Yet it still looks like a turd by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Honestly will it ever look like a modern application? Office 95 wants its UI back.

    1. Re: Yet it still looks like a turd by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Focuswriter: write something. Save as *.rtf. Send to editor; job done. Why bog down and bloat - it's a typewriter.

    2. Re:Yet it still looks like a turd by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I'm so happy it looks like it does. I hate the ribbon and basically any UI changes MS have done since vista (and the XP candyland theme too). They are not useful.

  13. StarOffice 5.2 by demon+driver · · Score: 1

    If it'd still reliably run on 64-bit systems, my suggestion would be to try and get a copy of StarOffice 5.2, the ancestor. No version of OpenOffice[.org] or LibreOffice has met my demands as well yet. Unfortunately, it doesn't. So what I'm doing today is running StarOffice 5.2 on 32-bit systems, like my netbook, and OpenOffice 3.3 on 64-bit systems, which is the latest of the StarOffice descendants still capable of saving documents in StarOffice 5 compatible format. (StarOffice 5 binary formats are still fully readable with current versions of OpenOffice and LibreOffice, for that matter.)

    1. Re:StarOffice 5.2 by Nutria · · Score: 1

      No version of OpenOffice[.org] or LibreOffice has met my demands as well yet.

      What are those demands?

      --
      "I don't know, therefore Aliens" Wafflebox1
    2. Re:StarOffice 5.2 by Mitchell314 · · Score: 3, Funny

      $20 grand and an escape helicopter.

      --
      I read TFA and all I got was this lousy cookie
  14. GPU support is the least thing I'd miss in LOffice by ffkom · · Score: 1

    I use LibreOffice a lot and actually like it, not as much as FrameMaker (before Adobe layed of its creators), but it's still a good software. But if a fairy came by and offered me to realize a wish list with up to a thousand entries regarding Libre Office improvements, I would still not even come close to wishing GPU support for it...

  15. Fcuk office, I use LaTeX by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Fcuk office, I use LaTeX.

    WISYWIG is the WORST invention since they include too many fonts, too many colours and they can't even get references and formatting copy and paste right. Not to mention LibreOffice has an interface dating back to the 90's.

    If you really insist on using Office and it's clones in the WISYWIG world, I suggest you AT LEAST read TYPESETTING best practices instead of using the equivalent of CRAYONS to typeset documents.

    Office and it's clones should have some kind of Typeset mode to be taken seriously.

    1. Re:Fcuk office, I use LaTeX by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I love Computer Modern (no, really, I do) and use it in all of my Word documents. Does that count?

      I'm with you, though. It's like airplanes. They are just the worst invention since they give people the option of doing too many things that cars were not designed for. They can't even compete on a F1 circuit or get you to the grocery store. If you are really going to insist on being a pilot, I suggest you AT LEAST read The Art and Science of Grand Prix driving instead of using the equivalent of a bird to do your F1 racing. Airplanes should have some kind of road mode to be taken seriously.

      Seriously, WTF are you rambling about? By the way, it's WYSIWYG, not WISYWIG (Christ, it's an acronym, say the phrase out loud), you dyslexic LaTeX elitist.

    2. Re:Fcuk office, I use LaTeX by dskoll · · Score: 1

      I also use LaTeX for writing text documents. However, I still use LibreOffice a lot... mostly for the calc (spreadsheet) component and occasionally the presentation tool. LibreOffice is a very competent office suite and certainly a no-brainer for replacing MS Office.

    3. Re:Fcuk office, I use LaTeX by dbIII · · Score: 1

      You miss the point.
      The WYSIWYG stuff is almost desktop publishing but not quite - so not full control but it has the appearance of having it. It ends up with all those situations where you have to waste time trying to "trick" the document into doing what you want because you can't directly tell it what to do.

  16. Github Integration anyone? by StonyCreekBare · · Score: 1

    As someone using LibreOffice to write a huge manuscript that has been in development for several years, I would like some really good change control tools. I may be dense, and not quite understanding the problem, but it seems to me that integrating LibreOffice with Github to support distributed editing of huge projects, and version control, would be a natural... Am I just to ignorant to understand why this isn't being done? -Stony

    1. Re:Github Integration anyone? by Lennie · · Score: 1

      OwnCloud has versioning and WebDAV I believe.

      --
      New things are always on the horizon
  17. Yes, better than Word version X to Word version Y by raymorris · · Score: 1

    Yes, LibreOffice is Word compatible. Specifically, it scores better than Word 2011 on compatibility with three of the four .doc formats. See the Microsoft article "What happens when I save a Word 2007 document in the OpenDocument Text format?"

    I experienced this myself when my mother couldn't open any of her old documents on her Win7 computer with MS Word. I opened them in LibreOffice for her and converted them to the latest version the .docx format.

  18. Re:GPU support is the least thing I'd miss in LOff by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Because the OpenCL support is used in the spreadsheet to speedup Calc functions and you've mention FrameMaker in the same breath as LibreOffice as in your talking Writer features.

    Nobody would add GPU support to their wishlist, but I'm sure your wishlist would include things like fast rendering of charts, better looking graphics, etc. I.e. some of your wishes would translate to wanting better graphics support, which could translate into using the GPU.

  19. Wikipedia entry on Mantle by storkus · · Score: 1

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A...

    Mantle is a low-level API specification developed by AMD as an alternative to Direct3D and OpenGL, primarily for use on the PC platform.

    Emphasis mine. I can't be the only one seeing this as a bad strategy (versus pushing this into Openxx).

    1. Re:Wikipedia entry on Mantle by Bite+The+Pillow · · Score: 1

      For underpowered CPU setups, removing the overhead of a translation layer offers speedups of 50%. For gpu bottlenecks, 2%.
      That tells me the translation layer is badly designed, badly implemented, or both, and probably impossible to significantly boost. For people who want an alternative, at least this gives benchmarks for improvement. And meanwhile a better user experience.
      It can't be bad unless AMD drops standards in favor of mantle. Bad for developers who want cross support, but the ones who will spend the time can afford it. A triple A title with a post release patch pretty much supports the effort, and now they have talent and code to bake it in if needed.

  20. The elephant in the room is by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Outlook. Without it you can forget any kind of migration. It's really AD that makes it indispensable, so don't bother suggesting anything without it.

  21. Re:GPU support is the least thing I'd miss in LOff by ffkom · · Score: 1

    It would never occur to me to do calculations demanding enough to benefit from GPU usage by using a spreadsheet application. And even if a GPU can accelerate the rendering of some 3D graphics in a document, I would rather want the application to do such rendering in the background once and retain the rendered image in a cache while I scroll around in the document - so that rendering speed would not really matter a lot.

  22. No ribbon is a bonus by dbIII · · Score: 1

    Even Foxit has got that horrible thing now.

  23. It only appears to move to Linux advocates by Burz · · Score: 0

    ...because they don't know what they're doing and don't understand the playing field to begin with. They think that presenting similar windows and icons is all that's needed, when its really the "platform-ness" of the OS that matters the most. This includes a lot of qualities and business practices which Apple and Microsoft adhere to but are known only internally or not even expressed at all (along with others that are commonly talked about in MS/Apple circles but are completely ignored in most FOSS projects).

    You sit at the personal computing table, you watch, you reverse-engineer the dynamics and you learn. Then you can try to figure out which elements can be adapted to FOSS or possibly even improved upon.

    No? Then get out of the way, cuz users have expectations and aren't attracted when systems developers are trying to impress only their peers --as well as that works in the server world, its just a pile unrecognizable pieces to everyone else. Barging in with piles of tools, plus 6 or 8 candy-coated DEs and calling it all "Linux" hasn't worked... cannot work.

    My god, man, its just a confusing mess.

    What Google did with Android was very savvy: They lost the "Linux" identity, published an SDK (so app devs see a stable target) and started with a select group of hardware vendors to support it (instead of that horrible pretence of 'try different distros and see which one works on your system'). But Android is not meant for the desktop...

    1. Re:It only appears to move to Linux advocates by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      But Android is not meant for the desktop

      Android heads to desktops
      http://www.pcworld.com/article...

      Could an Android desktop replace your Windows PC?
      http://www.zdnet.com/could-an-...

      Android vs Windows: Now the battle for the desktop really begins
      http://www.zdnet.com/android-v...

      Android PCs and other Windows-alternative desktops are for real
      http://www.zdnet.com/android-p...

      Android desktops arrive as Lenovo eyes your living room
      http://www.zdnet.com/android-d...

      And, coincidentally...

      https://play.google.com/store/...

    2. Re:It only appears to move to Linux advocates by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Those links don't really prove much. Two of them are from Steven J. Vaughan-Nichols, a well-known zealot who has high ideals but little basis in reality (and tends to push FUD as opposed to actual facts - just because he's doing it from the Linux side doesn't make it right). But in general, they don't show that Android works WELL on the desktop, merely that it's being put on machines by OEMs for whatever reasons (probably to step the loss of sales of desktops/laptops).

      Pushing Android on non phone/tablet devices doesn't show that it works well. No-one actually uses Android on the desktop for anything of measurable worth.

      Seriously, geeks on Slashdot lack critical thinking these days. Nothing like the old days. This was a shit rebuttal you had.

    3. Re:It only appears to move to Linux advocates by Bert64 · · Score: 1

      Windows was never meant for servers, phones or tablets either... An android desktop is likely to be just as lacklustre but that doesn't mean it won't be successful.

      --
      http://spamdecoy.net - free throwaway anonymous email - avoid spam!
    4. Re:It only appears to move to Linux advocates by RaceProUK · · Score: 1

      It works for other OSes too:

      Linux was never meant for servers, phones or tablets either... An android desktop is likely to be just as lacklustre but that doesn't mean it won't be successful.

      Note: Quoted part does not represent my opinion of Linux.

      --
      No colour or religion ever stopped the bullet from a gun
    5. Re:It only appears to move to Linux advocates by halltk1983 · · Score: 1

      Pretty sure linux was meant for servers.

      --
      Watch for Penguins, they eat Apples and throw rocks at Windows.
    6. Re:It only appears to move to Linux advocates by RaceProUK · · Score: 1
      --
      No colour or religion ever stopped the bullet from a gun
    7. Re:It only appears to move to Linux advocates by Burz · · Score: 1

      ...because they don't know what they're doing and don't understand the playing field to begin with. They think that presenting similar windows and icons is all that's needed, when its really the "platform-ness" of the OS that matters the most. This includes a lot of qualities and business practices which Apple and Microsoft adhere to but are known only internally or not even expressed at all (along with others that are commonly talked about in MS/Apple circles but are completely ignored in most FOSS projects).

      You sit at the personal computing table, you watch, you reverse-engineer the dynamics and you learn. Then you can try to figure out which elements can be adapted to FOSS or possibly even improved upon.

      No? Then get out of the way, cuz users have expectations and aren't attracted when systems developers are trying to impress only their peers --as well as that works in the server world, its just a pile unrecognizable pieces to everyone else. Barging in with piles of tools, plus 6 or 8 candy-coated DEs and calling it all "Linux" hasn't worked... cannot work.

      My god, man, its just a confusing mess.

      What Google did with Android was very savvy: They lost the "Linux" identity, published an SDK (so app devs see a stable target) and started with a select group of hardware vendors to support it (instead of that horrible pretence of 'try different distros and see which one works on your system'). But Android is not meant for the desktop...

      Trollmods with no counterpoint, I see.

  24. base by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    still way behind

    I want to use local tables, odbc and native drivers all in the one base file so i can update and move stuff around quickly between sources.

    i'm still stuck using access 2000 to get work done.... any alternatives welcome.

  25. calc right click input line / formula bar by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    how about it guys! some of us want to cut / paste part of a cell or formula quickly

  26. Great update for compatibility by SD-Arcadia · · Score: 1

    I had a few problem case .docx's that I had lying around that came from MS Office users. I am happy to report that they have rendered correctly for the first time in LO 4.2. Well done !
    And finally the taskbar/aero peek stuff finally behaves properly on Windows !
    Pet peeve taken care of ! I also feel a certain improvement in speed and responsiveness in general Nice nice nice.

    --
    https://dalgamotor.wordpress.com/ - Elektronik beyinlere ozgurluk asisi (Turkish)
  27. Does the check for updates work? by Bill_the_Engineer · · Score: 1

    The only way I find out a new version of LibreOffice is available is either by visiting the website and click on download to see the version number or when someone posts something on slashdot.

    --
    These comments are my own and do not necessarily reflect the views or opinions of my employer or colleagues...
  28. libreoffice would attract me even more by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    if it emulated wordperfect

  29. Quite right about that ribbon! by TheRealLifeboy · · Score: 1

    The only issue (some on Slashdot may say benefit ) is the lack of a ribbon UI.

    You're quite right. I still have to see the benefits of that attrocious "innovation"!