Slashdot Mirror
Ugly Trends Threaten Aviation Industry
An anonymous reader writes "The Washington Post reports, 'In the past several decades, the number of private and recreational pilots across the country has plummeted, as has the number of small aircraft being manufactured — trends that some say have been accelerated by increasingly strict federal regulations. If the decline continues, it will spell trouble for entrepreneurs ... Since 1980, the number of pilots in the country has nosedived from about 827,000 in 1980 to 617,000, according to the Frederick, Md.-based Aircraft Owners and Pilots Association. During about the same period, data from the General Aviation Manufacturers Association in Washington show that production of single-engine planes plunged from 14,000 per year to fewer than 700.'"
Amazingly, pretty much nothing about people's income has kept pace with the cost of living during the last 30 years. And they are wondering why less people are flying airplanes?
Everywhere it is after midnight right NOW !!
Kids train on video games now. If there's a war, they'll have a glut of drone pilots ready to go at a moment's notice.
Also, buck feta.
Except for those that got wrecked, most of those planes from 1980 are still flying. So if there are fewer pilots, it's no surprise that few new planes are being built.
Well perhaps if planes did not cost as much as high end luxury cars (i'm sure federal regulations are some of that cost). More people would be into flying. Just learning to fly is expensive. It is a hobby only the well to do can afford anymore.
I spent pretty much my whole childhood hanging out at the local general avaition field. Gone were the days when pilots felt secure taking some local kid up for a flight. And that was 30 years ago.
The cost of manufacturers liability awards is what's killing the light aircraft industry in the USA.
-jcr
The only title of honor that a tyrant can grant is "Enemy of the State."
It's just more expensive to get a pilot license so less people could afford it. On a side note, are we done with BETA?
$100 hamburgers are gone now days fuel costs have gone up alot.
time to catch our breath almost http://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=aviation%20military%20pollution%20floods&sm=3
The way one instructor pilot explained it to me is that it is lawsuits not regulations that are killing off manufacturing for the private pilot audience. He had numerous examples of pilot error, cited in the FAA accident report, that still led to juries awarding big settlements to families for various bogus reasons. Leading to a trend towards kit aircraft these days. These aircraft get a big "experimental" sticker on the fuselage and apparently this protects the designers sufficiently.
If the decline continues, it will spell trouble for entrepreneurs such as Austin Heffernan, who runs an aircraft maintenance and repair company in Hagerstown, Md.
Sure, and if people eat less fatty food then the entrepreneur who started up my local fry-up breakfast café will be in trouble.
(Note: I'm not saying the use of the word is incorrect, but rather noting that it generally seems to carry concepts of innovation and novelty with it, which really don't apply here)
Congratulations Beta. You're left with the chemtrail ppl now.
The B-52 completed fifty years of continuous service ... it is expected to serve into the 2040s.
At least they must be doing something right.
The Light Sport Aircraft category was supposed to help with the cost by creating a new category of plane that is a bit smaller and hypothetically cheaper. What I've noticed is a very large number of manufacturers in the market which seems good, but none can get enough sales volume to reduce cost.
The cheapest route of course is to build your own, put an engine on that can run car gas, and be your own mechanic. This is not appealing to everyone, and not everyone whom it would appeal to even knows it's an option.
Virtually 100% of airplane accidents in the US are from general aviation pilots not commercial pilots and certainly not from commercial airplane equipment malfunction. The only recent commercial crash I can remember involving pilot error was the tragic crash of a Korean airliner in San Francisco involving an inexperienced pilot, though I haven't heard that the FAA has come to a final conclusion/report.
In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act. George Orwell
What exactly is new here?
Peter.
The motorcycle community is facing the exact same problem of declining numbers.
Libraries are facing the same problem.
Classical music is facing the same problem.
Newspaper readers are dwindling.
The source of the problem is the same:
There are less and less younger pilots, riders, readers, etc. interested.
As the Baby Boomers slowly are forced to give up their passion / hobbies due to age, sickness, etc the rate of exit is significantly >>> the rate of entering. :-/ Liability (getting sued) and Risks (crashing) are seen as "not worth it" by the younger crowd. Like any community, you need enough "new blood" to sustain it and that isn't happening. Is that a bad thing? I don't know, but we can see trends and it looks like our world is changing. I guess that is the million dollar question: Is it changing for the better ?
I also wonder if /. mirrors this change to some degree? You have new "hip" / "emo" sites like Reddit, Dig, 4chan, etc., yet sites like /. have been around "forever" in internet time but for the most part people don't want "deep intellectual stimulation" anymore. They want "sound bites." the "10-second news."
The same trend is also happening in gaming; I call it "Fast Food Gaming" -- dumbed down button mashing of which Diablo 3, COD, etc. are the perfect examples. Now there is a time and a place for less cerebral challenges but I wonder if we're losing something along the way ...
Developing the heart & soul of personal relationships, and we no longer care about experiencing and exploring our passions physically. Why, when we can do it "all" virtually?
--
Piracy === Disrespect.
Piracy =/= Theft.
As a private pilot, doing short hops in your own plane is nice. You skip the humiliation of the TSA.
Unless you own a jet, longer flights are hard to do in a private plane. Range and speed limit how far is practical to travel in a few hours on your own.
I kind of wonder if there's a business opportunity in all this.
Create a national chain of airplane rentals and subsidize the cost of obtaining a pilot's license. Encourage the use of rented planes for regional travel. Build a common air fleet of simple to fly, fuel efficient planes with modern materials and avionics.
There's probably a group of wannabe owners and former owners who like to fly and would fly more often and for more utility but can't afford their own planes. Plus existing rentals aren't setup like car rentals and don't promote them for travel. Discounts or credits could be offered for pilots who would fly a "one way" plane back or to its next destination, since some would fly for free because they could.
I would think there would be an unmet aviation need out there.
I'm an airplane pilot and glider instructor, I donated my time to the local glider club. I stopped instructing in part because I was concerned about the liability if a student should be in an accident and someone was hurt. Paying for hefty liability insurance wasn't really practical for me, especially as I wasn't getting any income from it. I pretty much gave the whole thing up shortly after 9/11 when the security regulations started to become too intrusive. It was also becoming too expensive, even for gliders, especially as insurance and gas costs increased.
I've trained many students who went on to become pilots, some became airplane pilots from their exposure to aviation in gliders, some became instructors (a few of whom I trained to be instructors). Without instructors, you don't get student pilots. Without student pilots, you don't get new pilots, or new instructors.
Not tech, geek, computer, gaming or all that new/interesting. And ... The Washington Post, get real.
Why not just rename it news for people who live in the only country that we care about?
Admit it, you wrote the post about chemtrails in protest to beta. Not to mention, you don't like beta because you fear those who oppose your arguments might be heard, thereby exposing your nonsense for what it is.
I have been an aviator since 1986. The private aircraft industry has been in a slow decline, for many years. It's mostly cost driven by regulatory compliance and taxes that force people out of aviation. It's now a hobby for the most-wealthy folks or corporate elites that can afford a private jet (which is paid for by the shareholders). Sigh, things change.
The primary reason was that the accessible aircraft are pretty low performance unless you're planning on dropping a lot of money. Somehow, we had hundreds of thousands [sic] of prop jobs able to do 300-400 mph in WWI but the planes the average joe will get to fly today move at less than half to a third of that. So, for me all the fantasy trips across country became unreasonable.
I swear to God...I swear to God! That is NOT how you treat your human!
I think larger airplanes are inherently cheaper to fly very safely. 2 skilled pilots can fly 180 passengers at >500 mph, versus the 100 or 200 mph of a private, six digit prop plane. Commercial airplanes spend lots of time in the air. Airplanes with larger engines, engines that go longer between scheduled maintenance, computer programs to optimize seats filled, etc.
Some people speculate that the increased reliability, and better highways, made cars stiffer competition to private airplanes for family trips.
ok, so clearly the http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/G... that someone else linked to isn't working and needs to be strengthened to give manufacturers of aircraft stronger immunity against this kind of lawsuit (i.e. protection strong enough so that the manufacturer can get it thrown out of court before a jury even gets to it)
Maybe pass a law that gives manufacturers strong immunity from lawsuits (civil and criminal) if there is a valid FAA report showing that the manufacturers aren't to blame.
A big part of this trend is the aging of pilots trained in the Vietnam war. The youngest of them are in their 60's. When the war ended, the US government's "learn to fly for free*" program sharply contracted.
* Certain sacrifices required.
It has little to anything to do with regulations. It mostly comes down to the fact that aviation is a really, really, really, really, really expensive hobby that has only become more expensive in recent times. There just aren't that many people with that much disposable income.
Damn_registrars has no butt-hole. Damn_registrars has no use for a butt-hole.
Because those high performance 400 mph prop planes were piloted by 20 year olds with great eyesight and reflexes (and a depressingly large fatality rate). Your average 50 year old dentist should be in a Cessna, not a P51.
Faster! Faster! Faster would be better!
I remember them well. Thursday nights at Cincinnati Lunken.
This article said that among the most onerous requirements was the physical. Big deal. I gotta get a physical every two years for my CDL--and thats because Im healthy. If I had diabetes or high blood pressure I'd have to go back every year. Costs me $55 bucks at the cheap place Ive found.
Other than that there wasnt any substance to the article at all.
The only way I think you could do it was the way my old neighbor did- he was a master mechanic who was working on his FAA certificate. He'd signed up with a couple of wealthier folks and he got a fraction of the plane free if he did the work on it.
"Seven Deadly Sins? I thought it was a to-do list!"
First off I have a commercial license with both instrument and multiengine rating circa 1986. Flying is fun and used to be fairly afforable as a hobby. Now it is just too expensive for most people. Further making the matter worse is most aircraft rentals are mainly elderly piper's and cessna's, which aren't much faster then driving. The industry became to dependent on aviation schools, whose students had to take out massive loans for a license that they couldn't afford to use without loans and minimal job prospects. I know I am rambling here but general aviation has been morbid for the last 15-20 years. ( I owned a grumman yankee for several years, but the annual inspection fees and parts made it impractical to own.) There has been almost no innovation in factory built planes for decades. With airline deregulation, cheap airfares becam the norm and people just couldn't financially rationalize general aviation. I don't see improvement on the horizon.
There's a lot of money to be made in General Aviation.
I know, because I put it there!
Mal.
There would be Chinese Revolution before the USA if it ever becomes a failed state
TFA says
it will spell trouble for entrepreneurs
I am glad we care about the entrepreneurs, but why focus only on that person? What about the employees of the business that are impacted? They do not deserve to exist in the author view?
Flying cars will be more expensive to operate than small aircraft because of the added weight to make them drivable. I haven't seen any "flying car" designs that look practical for anything other than a tiny niche market.
Here's a story from last September that no one saw. Pay careful attention to the harassment about 2/3 of the way down:
That's a pretty damned clear set-up for a slam-dunk civil forfeiture case with a bonus uncontested drug possession charge.
Maybe too many people are addicted to the Internet and no longer have the free time to devote to hobbies?
Not only are there more things for people to do, but there are more ways to get around, too. Commercial airfares are far cheaper than they were during the peak of general aviation, cars are more reliable, and the highway network is more expensive. Meanwhile, small aircraft are essentially the same as they were 50 years ago, and fuel is more expensive.
There would be Chinese Revolution
Yes, and it'll most likely happen within the next five years.
http://www.project-syndicate.o...
the terrorists haven't won?
Whether it is the acceptance of drones, stop and frisk in N.Y., torture, spying on our own people, or the over-regulation of the airlines, the terrorists have planted the seeds of fear.
I'm in a similar position. I could get a pilots license without a whole lot more time investment but there are a bunch of things that cumulative caused me to stop my training. Don't get me wrong - I enjoyed the time I spent on lessons and don't consider it a waste for the experience. Some of the issues I found are:
1. I'm reading slashdot, ok. I'm the sort of person who contributes to the linux distro he runs, has a diskless PXE mythtv front-end in the living room, and so on. However, despite working at a fairly decent IT job the only planes I could really afford to fly only contain integrated circuits in the (fairly old) radios.
2. The costs just really add up even when when flying bare bones. I could take a Sat afternoon to go have lunch at an airport 60 miles away, for $450. I could probably drive there in the same amount of time. For a longer distance trip the plane might be faster but unless I just fly there and back the owner is going to want to be compensated for the time it is sitting on the ground while his fixed costs accrue. If I'm the owner, well I'm paying for those fixed costs so I'm not saving anything.
3. The regulatory atmosphere makes just about any kind of modern technology incredibly expensive. We're talking $1k for a radio, or $10k for a GPS that might have looked modern in the mid-90s (oh, and $3k/yr database updates). You can get modern glass cockpits but that costs more than the 40 year old plane that you want to install it into. Some of these devices can be bought at 1/10th the cost minus their certification, so that they can only be legally used in an experimental plane (despite being identical hardware).
4. The costs (driven by regulation, largely) mean that many pilots don't want to invest in technologies that improve safety. Few aircraft are equipped with ADS-B/TCAS, and pilots lobby to get rid of regulations that would require their installation. Heck, pilots lobby to prevent the requirement to even install radios in planes.
5. Honestly, the flying community really comes across to me as curmudgeony. Everybody wants to do everything the way it was done 50 years ago. Things like fuel injection, engine computers, automatic fuel mixture, and automatic transmissions are considered scary new experimental technologies. We fly around in planes with float carburetors which can ice up on humid days. Costs certainly interfere with modernization, but so does the culture.
6. Anything having to do with the FAA is really stuck in the 60s. Official weather products are all coded or formatted to be transmittable on a 45 baud teletype, or a radio FAX (if you listened to one of these you could practically demodulate the transmission in your head). Exams contain questions on equipment that few pilots have equipped in the last decade. Exam questions give wind problems that require estimating the travel time on a 75mile flight to the nearest minute, or require interpreting obscure symbols on charts that nobody uses, and which are only used on the ground where anybody can look up the conventions. Instructors openly talk about students having to learn flight planning techniques that nobody actually uses in real world flying.
I found that most of the things I was interested in about flying weren't really accessible at a cost that most could afford. I'd rather fly a flight sim where fuel is free, any aircraft can have a glass panel, and so on. Sure, it doesn't actually go anywhere, but if you want a plane that gets you someplace faster than a car you're talking about serious money.
Then for me personally I really struggled to deal with moving air. I really had no trouble with the concepts, but it felt like I was swimming in a rip tide half the time I was in the air, constantly being bumped about by erratic currents and having to adjust. Sure, I could land the thing, but I was never really quite sure when taking off if my next flight would be my last. My instructor would tell me that I was doing everything just fine, but it felt like skillfully driving down the middle of a freeway coated in ice; perhaps some would fine this exhilarating, but for me it was bordering on terrifying.
You, however, probably need the income of a 50 year old dentist to afford the fuel bill for a zippy 'little' P51 (about 4.5 nmi/US gallon) runabout. (The C152 runs about 13 nmi/USG)
Patent litigation: A doctrine of Mutually Assured Destruction... in which everyone seems willing to push the button
The stagnation of design in the factory-built market was caused by a few jury decisions to hold manufacturers liable for crashes, not by government regulation. The liability problem made USA manufacturers stop introducing bold design changes. The "51% rule" holds that if the customer builds an airplane himself, then he's the manufacturer and assumes liability. This has caused all of the interesting design progress to show up in the kit plane market instead of in the factory-built market. (Two examples are composite construction and canard wings, although both features are available factory-built from non-USA manufacturers.) Government regulation has helped bring new pilots into the fold with the recent introduction of the Sport Light Aircraft pilot's license.
Separate from the airplane price issue, though, is that that geeky guys that might have become private pilots are diverted today into electronics and software. "Tech" used to mean airplanes.
"If you're not passionate about your operating system, you're married to the wrong one."
Because those high performance 400 mph prop planes were piloted by 20 year olds with great eyesight and reflexes
Truth, but...
and a depressingly large fatality rate
I'm pretty sure your average 50 year old dentist isn't going to come under attack from Jerry or Tojo. The depressing fatality rate sure as hell did not come from speed.
With aging populations, rising fuel prices due to crude oil depletion, population growth, and the improvement of rail roads and bus services, and effective telecommuting: why is hte reduction of personal aircraft in any way a surprise?
With gas going up and the hard-won benefits of our grandparents' unions eroding, it probably won't be much longer before the majority of Americans can't afford to own or operate any private vehicle, much less one that flies. Enjoy your bleak-ass future, bitches, I'm having another cigarette!
I'm trying to teach myself to set people on fire with my mind... Is it hot in here?
I was a pilot many years ago and heard aviation stories from the 60s and before. Those stories basically had lots of people having fun with their airplanes. Many people flew crappy old airplanes that they either fixed themselves or knew someone who could fix them. Maybe an old mechanic from WWII. The planes ran on car gas and people generally knew the limitations of these planes. In many cases a license was a formality which after many years of flying people might go in and get their license.
But by the time I was flying the cowboys were mostly gone and the rule books were out and self righteous people ran around thumping the rule books like they were bibles. So instead of training people to have safe fun, a private pilots license was all about creating little airline pilots. There was this foolish belief that enough rules and enough training would keep people from augering in. I have read that small plane manufactured in 2014 will have insurance as nearly 50% of its cost. This might be important for a plane used in commercial passenger services but the reality is that if I were to get back into flying it would be for fun. A great safety mechanism is actually available to put into crappy airplanes and that is a parachute. Yes there are parachutes for the small planes themselves; wing falls off, pull the chute. This almost makes small planes idiot proof.
The funny thing is that in my few years of flying I found out how to figure out who was going to die. If they were perfectionists who talked endlessly about following the rules and how yahoos were giving pilots a bad name and wanted ever greater training and certifications they were dead the first time something went wrong. These were people who would have an engine failure and pick the absolute worst place to have a forced landing. Or do a perfect forced landing with all the perfect radio patter, until they flew into the high tension power lines.
But the people who thought that half of their checklist was done by farting and burping, and were just as happy to take off from a taxiway were basically immortal.
To give a great example there were a crew of drug smugglers about 40 minutes of flying from my home base who owned a bunch of crappy planes that they ducktaped together and they took off and landed on these hilly dirt roads and only one license among the lot of them. After 30 years of activity the only thing that shut them down was being arrested for the smuggling part. No crashes.
But at my flying school we made bets as to who would crash and wrote their names on a wall. About 15 years after leaving I got an out of the blue letter from the guy who managed the airport and he included a letter with about 80% of the names crossed off. They had all had a serious crash. It was dead easy to identify these guys. They were typically around 50, slightly portly, had that cop look, and always had a mustache. They took flying way too seriously and would say things like, "You aren't ready for that." The that being something that wasn't actually much, just more than they had.
The reality is that flying is really really easy. Any monkey can learn to fly. Few people who enter flying school will fail, they might chicken out or run out of money but few will fail. But what is basically impossible to train for and certainly not tested is keeping a cool head. When things go wrong, your training will help but you have to adapt. Sometimes you are handed an easy emergency such as engine failure at altitude. But often you are handed something such as a partial elevator failure that could be potentially handled by quickly changed the center of mass of the airplane (moving everyone to the back) and then using the throttle as for pitch control. But you don't train for that; you can't. You just have to be able to say, nothing I know is going to work, what can I do. But if you are a rule book thumping dogmatist all you have to hang on to is that someone is to blame for this and they are going to pay.
Now very tiny planes have far fewer rules but quite simply they should designate certain(most) airspaces as near rule free zones. Fly what you want how you want and have fun; do this and you will have people 3D printing something that will blow your mind.
I'm also going to chime in with the "it's too expensive" issue. Flying is amazingly expensive. It's always been expensive, but the costs of aviation have risen along with everything else (and in some cases, much, much faster) while real wages ... haven't.
At my local FBO, airplanes rent for between $110 and $170 an hour wet (with fuel) depending on the type and equipment. If you're a student, expect to pay between $25 and $50 an hour for instruction, and the average student (so I'm told) requires between 50 and 60 hours of instruction before they're ready to sit for exams. Add in about $200 for your medical and another $500 or so for leaning materials, another few hundred in miscellaneous costs, and the cost just get licensed is, at the low end, around $8,000 and can easily go in excess of $13,000+.
And then you've got your license. Then what? Have you looked at the cost of airplanes recently? There's a reason pretty much nobody buys airplanes anymore. Only clubs and flight schools own airplanes. You want something newer than 40 years old and seats 4 people, it will run you in excess of $50,000. And forget anything new. A new Cessna 172 currently goes for in excess of $300,000.
So yes. It's so expensive even to just learn to fly that it is effectively priced out of all the but (what's left of) the upper middle class and the wealthy.
But there's another issue, too, that I think warrants some attention: health.
So many things that are considered "common" diagnoses now and are easily treatable, such as high blood pressure, ADHD, depression, etc. are considered disqualifying conditions by the FAA. Even though many of these conditions are easily treatable by modern medicine, they're disqualifying for even a third-class (private pilot) medical certificate.
While the costs are what is primarily keeping people away from flying right now, the archaic medical certifying process used by the FAA is not helping.
"Think about how stupid the average person is, then realize that half of 'em are stupider than that!" - George Carlin.
I doubt that includes the many light aircraft being produced overseas and imported. But even most of those have a starting price in the low six figures.
Because those high performance 400 mph prop planes were piloted by 20 year olds with great eyesight and reflexes
Those young military pilots did not have to pay the fuel bill. A 400 mph prop plane (WW2 warbird) burns anywhere from several hundred to a couple thousand dollars worth of fuel PER HOUR in todays dollars.
I manage to afford to own a Vans RV-7 experimental airplane (bought it already built and flying) on a $50K/yr salary. I'm single without a family however, but I can go almost 200 MPH on about $50/hr fuel costs. I put about 50-60 hours per year on my plane.
I was a flight instructor - single engine, instrument, multi engine, instrument, commercial, flight instructor, and advanced ground instructor. I LOVED to teach flying. I owned several airplanes, both in partnerships and by myself. As others have said, it ain't cheap. I did some digging when I was considering buying a new twin (a few years ago), and one thing absolutely astounded me. MOST of the cost of a new airplane was in manufacturer's liability insurance for airplanes made in years past. We've all heard the stories - a SEL rated pilot takes off in weather that turns into IMC. The pilot crashes into the side of a mountain because he lost control of the aircraft. The FAA says the cause of the crash was "operation above the pilot's experience / rating". Truly sad. This is what claimed the life of JFK's son a few years ago. But the civil jury found the manufacturer liable because the aircraft broke up upon impact, and awarded a huge sum. This is the problem - manufacturers find it difficult to improve a design, because every improvement can be considered an admission that the previous version was flawed. I have some great memories of my Dad and I flying in my 1941 Taylorcraft. The seat was a sling of canvas between 2 boards. No electrical system. Just seat-of-the-pants flying, navigating by following the roads below, and finding a restaurant serving great pancakes and bacon. it's truly sad that the lawyers and large jury awards have almost completely killed general aviation. I certainly hope they're sleeping well at night.
This isn't a problem that is limited to the USA.
I live in New Zealand and have a workshop on the local airfield.
Of the 9 hangars at the airfield, only two now have airworthy aircraft in them -- and most of those are home-built or microlite types rather than GA craft (like Cessnas).
Just about the only (semi) regular users of the runway are flight schools which train pilots for overseas airlines such as EasyJeet and JetStar.
The skyrocketing cost of maintaining a PPL combined with hikes in just about every other cost associated with flying has really seen the amount of activity plummet.
Even the local CAA (our equivalent of the FAA) field officer told me he's not going to renew his pilot's license because of the costs.
On the up-side.... the whole issue of drones being integrated into the national airspace may soon be made a lot easier -- since there'll be far fewer full-sized craft in that airspace anyway :-)
The cost of an airplane is not the issue. If you look back to at least the 1960s, an airplane cost about as much as a middle class house. That has not changed. The cost of OPERATING an airplane HAS changed. It is more expensive. It is more complicated and arcane. I say this as a licensed pilot for the last 25 years. Some things are much easier and safer. TIS and ADS-B have improved traffic awareness. GPS has improved navigation. Moving maps and weather overlays have improved situational awareness tremendously. Some minor improvements in aerodynamics have trickled down to the GA market and that has helped as well.
But the airspace systems is hideously more complex than it was in decades past. Controlled airspace has grown enormously over cities. The day when you could cross the country in a Piper Cub without even so much as a radio are vanishing fast.
All that said, I don't think the complexity or cost is the issue. I think the primary change is social. People returned from military training wanting to do some of the things they did in the service. So amateur radio grew, aviation grew, recreational shooting sports grew, sport diving grew... but if you look at the statistics today, there aren't as many who make the transition from military to civilian life. It ended when the draft ended --and those baby boomers are retiring and dying off.
Most kids approach these endeavors with Grandpa gently hoping a spark will light in their grandchildren. And it doesn't happen. These activities are all perceived as legal liabilities, frightening, and pointless.
The thrill of doing really cool things in aviation/radio/mechanics/shooting sports/etc.. is vanishing fast. These activities remain as expensive as they ever were, but the romance of doing it is just not there. We have killed the adventure and excitement with safety, policies, regulations, and so on. I'm not saying the latter are a bad thing; but people want to feel alive by doing something unique and exciting. Aviation is just another form of transportation and it isn't even particularly glamorous any more. Radio is your cell phone. You can call your buddy overseas for next to nothing any time you like. Who needs a shortwave radio? Guns owners are regarded as social pariahs by much of the population, with politicians and the news media ranting non stop nonsense against them at every opportunity. Backyard mechanics are considered an environmental nuisance by most home-owner associations. There was even a time when kids used to have chemistry labs in their back yard sheds. No longer. If you have a chemistry lab, you are usually regarded as some sort of subversive bomb maker.
We are killing this generation with mediocre education, discouraging technical endeavors at every step, polluting minds with nonsense endeavors from the Internet, and then we sit and wonder why so few kids take any sort of STEM interest.
Aviation isn't the only thing that is dying. It is the curious, entrepreneurial spirit and playfulness of the average teen-age kid that is dying. They're being coddled and protected by every helicopter parent and school administrator around. Then they go to college in record numbers, only to come home and live in the basement for lack of any interest in the world around them.
Societal mediocrity has won. We need to light an afterburner under the maker movement to undo this nonsense. It is killing us as a society.
The requirement is “a definite detractor to business,” Heffernan told the committee. He and several lawmakers noted that the closest individuals come to a medical exam when obtaining a driver’s license is usually a vision test. Meanwhile, most boat operators do not need any medical certifications.
In the case of a car or boat when the operator becomes ill he can pull over and stop. An aircraft is a different matter in that it could kill many more people including the operator if it crashes. There is also the difference that aircraft fly at altitude and the thinner air can exacerbate health issues. One needs to be much more fit to pilot an aircraft than operate a vehicle and boat. By the way, commercial drivers usually require a doctor's exam on license renewal.
The other issue is have these regulations changed recently? I had a glider pilot's license in the '80s. I needed a medical exam and private aviation was pretty healthy then..
It's the costs of labor and liability insurance that are fueling the move to experimental airplanes. (I know --- I'm building one.) The FAA doesn't put a huge amount of red tape in your way. The kicker: The first 25 to 40 hours of flight have to be made over "sparsely populated" areas, and you can't take any passengers. If the airplane doesn't fly right, you get to be the first (and hopefully only) one to find out the hard way. As in most such ventures, prudence trumps aggressiveness. Virtually everything that goes into an airplane requires hand work. The volumes are too small for mass-production of anything except stamped parts. Add it up: 1000 or 2000 hours of work to build an airplane with the burdened cost of labor, facilities, insurance, etc. etc., and you get small planes that cost as much as houses. An airplane engine will set you back $30-40 thousand. A full radio stack? Figure on $20,000 to start, and the sky's the limit. The volumes are tiny, and the non-recurring engineering (and liability) costs are huge. All of the parts need a paper trail. Everything done to an airplane must be logged and signed off. Experimental airplanes are cheaper (you do all the work, you do most of the maintenance, you take all the risk). Is there a downside? Yes; some folks are careless. Some folks aren't quick on the uptake. The accident rate proves it. But the big EXPERIMENTAL label shields designers and kit manufacturers from liability, which leaves no free lunches for attorneys, widows, or orphans. Yes, my insurance is paid up, and my estate plan is in place. I may be crazy, but I'm not careless.
THANKS Obama!
Cost too much and the new gov rules make it too much of a pain in the ass
Quoting from that Wikipedia article:
GARA is a statute of repose generally shielding most manufacturers of aircraft (carrying fewer than 20 passengers), and aircraft parts, from liability for most accidents (including injury or fatality accidents) involving their products that are 18 years old or older (at the time of the accident) , even if manufacturer negligence was a cause.
(Emphasis mine.)
Government regulations on pilots and airplanes has gone through the roof and insurance has skyrocketed.
Someone who learnt all they know about economics from reading Scrooge McDuck comics.
Read the article and there are a few inaccuracies including the need to "renew a license". As a pilot, aircraft owner and have a small business at an airport, I can confidently state some costs have risen over the years, mainly fuel, new airplane cost, rental fees. However some have remained the same or actually have fallen; hangar rent is about the same as a decade ago and my insurance is actually cheaper, used planes are about the same cost. I don't agree cost nor legislation is the main issue; it is interest and initiative from younger persons. No one hangs out at the airport like they did in the past. The same week I landed a full time job out of university I signed up for my training. Three months later I had my license. Instead of running out and getting a new car and a new payment, I started flying. I still think it can be done in a similar fashion if there is interest and initiative. I also don't agree with relaxing the rules to let people fly without a medical; it just isn't that big of a deal (or cost) to go for an exam every couple years. A rule change like this will not get new younger people flying, it will just extend the time for older people to legally fly. BTW, if they really want to, the older folks will probably fly anyway medical or not. Not certain how to fix it, but I'm not buying the cost and legislation excuses.
I think another big part is that many families have smaller amounts of discretionary income now. Last I heard, it was ~$10K to get through ground school and instructor time for the Private Pilot license. That, combined that the only 'affordable' airplanes are 40 year old Cessna that are needing an overhaul, or kitplanes, which require 50+% owner build and a substantial time investment, have killed off GA for most people. -- I just laugh when I see the 'speed enforced by aircraft', BTW...
It is the fuel costs that are killing general aviation. That is this largest plane rental cost for the casual pilot.
I've flown, and ridden horses, for more than 30 years now.
Horses are more expensive. A plane, you can find a cheap tiedown and just park it. Horses need shoes, teeth floated, vet checks, regular exercise. etc.
A plane needs an annual inspection.
A horse is a "thousands of dollars/month" unless you have lots of land. A plane is "hundreds of dollars/month" unless you have lots of land.
My sister and husband own their own helicopter. Both of their kids have learnt to fly it - one was 12 years old the other 13 when they learnt.
The kids would much rather spend the weekend playing Minecraft or TF2 or COD or ARMA3 etc. etc. etc. than fly the helicopter.
30 years ago nothing would come close to the experience of flying a helicopter for a 12 year old. These days participating in a virtual war apparently trumps it every time.
For me, I have always dreamed of flying until the experience a close friend had to finished his commercial and multi-engine license (he's also an airplane mechanic). Here's the kicker - it cost him nearly $50k to just get enough hours to qualify up to Commercial, including his ILS,nighttime, and multi-engine ratings. On top of that, the average cost to rent a simple Cessna 152 or 172 for an hour is anywhere from $175 to $250 depending on the outfit.
It gets better - the airline he works for wanted him to take a pay cut by HALF to become a pilot. That's right - the pilot pay is so crappy, he would have to loose over half his pay to sit in the right seat (co-pilot).
Coupled with expensive educational requirements and fees to keep current, no wonder its in decline. And the industry is known for crappy wages, crappy hours, crappy jobs, coupled with long times away from home. Who in their right mind would like a job like that? Hence my friend is still a mechanic.
For me I'd rather be wishing I was up there than flying wishing I was on the ground in a better job.
Management is doing things right; leadership is doing the right things. - Peter F. Drucker
Until I found out that after instruction, equipment, airplane rental and fuel that it was going to cost me in the range of $20,000, and that every time I went up after it was going to cost roughly $100/hour for rental not including fuel which has become so astronomically expensive.... There are a lot of useful things I can do with that amount of money and they're all more important than learning to fly.
How much of this is just because flying isn't sexy any more? Even before 9/11 commercial flight transitioned from a luxury enjoyed by people with money to a Greyhound bus trip at altitude. People used to see pilots as, you know, dashing guys with an unusual skill, and these days they're seen as glorified bus drivers. Some of that has to rub off on general aviation.
There's a very simple equation for helicopters- the more powerful the engine(s) the safer the machine is, its only a generalisation but a pretty powerful one. (wind force vs engine power) The same thing applies to planes, and its about the main reason why big jet airliners are massively and inherently safer than small planes. (the same thing even applies to ships and boats as well) - Its the laws of physics.
Below the speed of light Special Relativity is one of the most accurate theories in physics - above the speed of light..
Just because it isn't new and shiny does not mean it's broken. Yes, METAR/TAF looked good on TTY canary. Is it really that hard to figure them out? Really? Does flying really mean a glass cockpit to you? Why not look outside and potentially see something new? Do you really need a GPS and ADS-B to fly? I don't, and I use my airplane to commute to work at least once a week. How far does a flight sim take you?
I absolutely do not understand why people take a slow low end airplane like a C-172 or a cherokee and hang enough electronics to support a wild weasel squadron. The whole point is to fly... have a different perspective. And not that sissy straight and level crap either, learn how to do basic aerobatics. Really fly the airplane, don't just act like it's moms minivan with your eyes glued to the damn GPS. That GPS isn't important until it's time to go home.
I will agree w/one of your complaints. The old farts at the airport are a sour crowd. Too many authority freaks and dittoheads. Don't pay them any attention, because they aren't flying often anyway.
Pilots have always had to contend with medical issues and the FAA. That hasnt really changed.
Its all economics. Career wise, it really doesnt make sense to be a civilian pilot. The airlines have made the job so damn miserable, they can't keep staff. Aside from the work schedule, you really cant expect to attract good talent by paying them a miserable $23k a year. Youre left with a pool of peope who REALLY love flying, the kind that will tolerate your bullshit just so they stay in that pilot's seat.
If you want to fix the industry, find a way to make training far cheaper. That means planes that are much less expensive to buy and run ($310k for a cessna is absurd). That also means paying instructors and airline pilots better, especially at the low end.
can be solved with more regulation.
Really fly the airplane, don't just act like it's moms minivan with your eyes glued to the damn GPS
Well, that depends on which country/region you are in. Here in The Netherlands the GPS is almost mandatory to ensure you do not fly into some temporary or permanent patch of restricted airspace, don't get reported for flying over one of several hundred unmarked Natura-2000 wildlife areas (that contain no wildlife) and don't inadvertently bump 200ft into oh-so-precious Class-A which covers half of the country from 1200ft up. And these days the authorities don't tell you how to avoid intrusion, they send you a 'transaction proposal' of several hundred €€€.
This on top of mandatory Mode-S transponders, mandatory 406MHz ELT's, soon mandatory 8.33MHz radio's, annual 120 Euro charge for using radio spectrum, annual liability insurance, annual hangar rent rates, 3+ Euro/liter Avgas ($15 per Gallon..), landing fees of €30 for the lightest, lowest noise category plane, mandatory annual SoA renewal fees, mandatory annual medical check (at 50+), etc, etc, etc..
Flying has become impossible to afford and is no longer fun.
To Terminate, or not to Terminate, that's the question - SCSIROB
As someone who just went through flight school before the economy crashed, the biggest issue facing GA today is cost (see discretionary spending). This coupled with ever increasing experience requirements and ballooning insurance costs to all air carriers, large and small, means that you need almost 1200 hours just to get hired. Couple this with decreasing pay at the top of the industry and watching the airlines use bankruptcy as a tool to get out of pension obligations and is it any wonder why kids don't think this isn't worth it any more?
I'm in the same (work situation) as you, yet I fly and I do so somewhere that's more expensive to fly than the United States and can afford it. It's about opportunity costs. I have never owned a new car for instance.
I fly not to do more technology (I spend 99% of my waking life tinkering with technology), I fly to get away from technology a bit. The aircraft I own has zero automation, it's an ancient Auster Autocrat (built in 1945) with pretty much the original instruments in it including World War II style gyros. It's good to be away from chittering beeping devices for a while and just look out the window at the awesome scenery. Sure it's ancient, needs lots of tinkering with, and costs a lot. Why is it worth it? I get to look out the window. I'm actually *flying myself*. I learned to fly in 1997 and I've never got tired of it.
The only bit of technology I really like to have in this environment is my iPad running SkyDemon. We have some very complex airspace not far away, and when flying cross country it makes it a bit more pleasant to have a good easy to use GPS.
Oolite: Elite-like game. For Mac, Linux and Windows
One wonders if this has gone hand in glove with improvements in computer based flight simulators? I mean as flight simulators have improved people who might have earned a pilots license may just sit at home on the computer instead. Also, does this take into account the rise of the Microlight?
Build a Man a Fire, and He'll Be Warm for a Day. Set a Man on Fire, and He'll Be Warm for the Rest of His Life.
I have a recreational pilots license, it's expired as I need to get a medical re cert and I haven't been in the left seat for years. But even a used to hell and back 1960's Cessna costs as much as a frigging house. Then you have airports charging ungodly expensive parking fees just to leave your plane sitting in some grass.
I cant even hope to ever afford even a tiny trainer that is less than 60 years old. THIS is what is wrong with aviation. only the ultra rich or the old retired fart can afford an aircraft.
Do not look at laser with remaining good eye.
The cognitive dissonance that you've created may cause some heads to explode.
"Since 1980, the number of pilots in the country has nosedived from about 827,000 in 1980 to 617,000, according to"....
WHEN? When was the 617,000?? If you're saying 1980 to 2014, that's 34 years with a 210,000 drop... I wouldn't call that a nosedive by any means... it's 25% over 34 years which is a fairly shallow dive vs say 25% in 5 years...
While you're absolutely right I'm not sure motherfucker and fuckface are the right terms to use if you want people to consider what you're saying and not just dismiss you as a total jackass.
What benefit has been provided by unions in the last 100 years? They're good about taking money out of your check and ensuring the union bosses stay nice and fat, but for the average worker? Union workers get screwed by the company they work for and the union these days. Corporations and unions have been collaborating against the individual since time out of mind. The best defense the average employee has now days is to develop their skill set and loan it at the highest rate it will pay. Don't buy into the corporate bs of stability, good health care, blah blah blah incentives, etc. It's all pie in the sky. Bottom line is salary. If you pay me what I'm worth I'll go get my own heath insurance and you can keep your corporate plan. Forget about unions they're just another drain on the economy. While there is strength in numbers the unions never use that for the individual, but rather to get more for themselves. The same thing could be accomplished if the average American worker just flat refused to accept slave wages. Can't get a good deal? Screw 'em. Go start your own business.
...load that allows you to travel several hundred miles for less than $200,000 and watch sales 'take off.' Now, it is arguable that this would be a good thing given that most people can barely drive a car... ;)
Private aircraft that you'd want your family to travel in are HIDEOUSLY expensive.
Loading...
Video games do not prepare you to fly. What they are good for is a relative desensitisation to killing for a cause. While I've never killed anyone in real life I would imagine that no video game could really prepare you for that experience.
> production of single-engine planes plunged from 14,000 per year to fewer than 700
That's great news. Face it honestly, single engined planes crash. Twin engines should be the norm for safety, but it costs a lot. Safe single engine ops are only possible in the higher tier, i.e. turbines like the PT-6 family or the GE-F404/414, because they have relatively few moving parts. Reciprocating piston engines are a disaster waiting to happen. Nowadays modern aero-diesel twins carry a lot of hope, but they need FADECs for engine control and that box has to be made of mil-spec, multiple-redundant electronics, which costs a lot.
Medical reqs and costs also cannot be relaxed, since a pilot becoming incapacitated up there is very capable of killing multiple people on the ground. Trying to turn manned planes into ground-controlled drones increases the risk of RQ-170 persian style cyber hacking, which frightens the experts.
I would say there is probably not much need for GA in the transport sense. The elites fly in professionally piloted twin- or tri-jet bizjets. On the lessen wealth bracket, modern high-speed rail is faster than a piston single can ever be. CONUS badly needs a new high-speed electric rail network built in the BART gauge. As for non-transport GA, soarplanes are fine and can be launched from the ground.
Yeah it's annoying to have to go to the doctor every two years after you're 40, but that's not the main problem as I see it. Recently there have a been a spat of ramp checks by the border patrol. If you're within 100 miles of the border they can ramp check you for any reason. It's tantamount to harassment. That alone can discourage GA. Then on top of it you've got ever increasing regulations with ever increasing requirements for proficiency. While I was getting my licesnse a couple of years ago they changed the regs requiring demonstration of rapid descent as part of the check ride. It's not a bad thing to know how to do that, but it's just one more thing the instructor has to cover, and it really is common sense. If you're plane is on fire, getting it on the ground is a high priority. I might find myself losing more than 2k ft/min in that situation myself. All regulation has a cost associated with it. Some of it is absolutely necessary, but much of the regulation in aviation is unnecessary, adds nothing of value in terms of safety, and just increases the cost of flying.
Things have changed dramatically on the regulatory front in the last 60 years. Very expensive lawsuits continue to be filed. Costs have skyrocketed to the place where they are out of the reach of middle class Americans. The bottom line is that both lawyers and the FAA are to blame (with DHS and other three letter agencies complicit).
Lawsuits began to proliferate against manufacturers for failures of 30+ year old plane parts in the 70's and 80's. All general aviation manufacturing basically shut down in the late 80's. In 1994, President Clinton signed another "General Aviation Revitalization Act" (the first was in 1958). Cessna restarted making planes and Cirrus came along with a new design that has been successful. Mooney, Piper, Beechcraft and others basically never recovered. The reason is that the new law only protects against lawsuits of parts *older* than 20 years. Certification of any changes, no matter how trivial, by the FAA has become a horrible, slow, expensive nightmare. Innovation in manufacturing and airframe testing has slowed to a crawl. The cost to certify a plane is prohibitive. For example see the Lancair line of kit airplanes which would cost $20+ million each to certify - never mind that the planes already exist in experimental (owner-build kits) form and meet the Part 23 manufacturing rules. Divide $20+ million into the expected sales of a couple hundred per year and you see why the cost of new planes is out of the reach of all but the top 1% (or less).
The latest response to this nightmare is the Small Airplane Revitalization Act of 2013, recently signed into law. The resulting regulatory changes won't even be published until 2015, so it will be at least 2020 before any significant change will be noticed.
2. The costs just really add up even when when flying bare bones. I could take a Sat afternoon to go have lunch at an airport 60 miles away, for $450. I could probably drive there in the same amount of time. For a longer distance trip the plane might be faster but unless I just fly there and back the owner is going to want to be compensated for the time it is sitting on the ground while his fixed costs accrue.
Generally renting an airplane is done by "Hobbes Time"--basically the amount of time the airplane is running, not when it's just sitting on the ground. That means that 4 hour lunch to an airport 60 miles away in an airplane that rents for $110/hour does not cost $440. It costs more like $150, assuming about 0.7 hours each way. (Some rental companies charge a minimum Hobbes time for overnight stays; one club I belonged to charged a minimum 2 hour/day charge for overnight stays; if you fly less than 2 hours that day they rounded up to 2 hours.)
3. The regulatory atmosphere makes just about any kind of modern technology incredibly expensive. We're talking $1k for a radio, or $10k for a GPS that might have looked modern in the mid-90s (oh, and $3k/yr database updates). You can get modern glass cockpits but that costs more than the 40 year old plane that you want to install it into. Some of these devices can be bought at 1/10th the cost minus their certification, so that they can only be legally used in an experimental plane (despite being identical hardware).
It's extremely common to see pilots use the old ILS/VOR receivers in their airplane coupled with software like ForeFlight for the iPad. The ForeFlight subscription is cheap--perhaps $150/year for geo-referenced IFR charts and geo-referenced taxi-way charts as well as updated VFR maps. That's how I got my instrument ticket, by the way: steam gauges and ForeFlight on my iPad. (ForeFlight for situational awareness, and the steam gauges to make it all legal.)
5. Honestly, the flying community really comes across to me as curmudgeony. Everybody wants to do everything the way it was done 50 years ago. Things like fuel injection, engine computers, automatic fuel mixture, and automatic transmissions are considered scary new experimental technologies. We fly around in planes with float carburetors which can ice up on humid days. Costs certainly interfere with modernization, but so does the culture.
It comes across as curmudgeony because there are a lot of curmudgeons who are attracted to the field, and who are spending every spare dime they can find on their love of flying. And once you get your ticket who can resist the challenge of going up in an old biplane, just for the heck of it?
That said, I agree that part of the problem is regulations: taking a car engine (which can easily operate at 10,000') and putting it into an airplane is damned near impossible without years of regulatory work--and why do that when a Lycoming based on 1930's technology is already certified by the FAA? And don't get me started on glass panels costing $20,000 when a handheld (with similar features) cost under $1000 but can't be legally used to shoot an IFR approach.
Then for me personally I really struggled to deal with moving air. I really had no trouble with the concepts, but it felt like I was swimming in a rip tide half the time I was in the air, constantly being bumped about by erratic currents and having to adjust. Sure, I could land the thing, but I was never really quite sure when taking off if my next flight would be my last. My instructor would tell me that I was doing everything just fine, but it felt like skillfully driving down the middle of a freeway coated in ice; perhaps some would fine this exhilarating, but for me it was bordering on terrifying.
See, for me, I found that a lot of fun, once I got over my air sickness. Unlike some pilots I love doing pattern work, bec
Just because it isn't new and shiny does not mean it's broken. Yes, METAR/TAF looked good on TTY canary. Is it really that hard to figure them out? Really?
Besides, just click "Plain Language" when you get an on-line briefing on duats.com, and it will translate the METARs and TAFs and PIREPs into plane language. How hard is that?
Amazingly, pretty much nothing about people's income has kept pace with the cost of living during the last 30 years. And they are wondering why less people are flying airplanes?
It isn't that income has kept pace. The problem is that the cost of product liability insurance has risen to the point where what was a $15,000 plane in the 50s would be a $350,000+ plane now days.
Too bad that it hasn't reached the point where the attorneys have been crushed under the weight of the $$$ that they have skimmed off the general economy.
Deregulation of the airline industry occured in 1978 and the cost of commercial air travel has been plummeting (in inflation-adjusted dollars) ever since. The value proposition of owning and operating your own private aircraft vs travelling commercially has been swinging heavily in favor of commercial travel since that time. So it shouldn't come as any surprise that private aircraft ownership has been trending down since 1980.
Yes, METAR/TAF looked good on TTY canary. Is it really that hard to figure them out? Really?
Generally, not, though I'm sure that there is a risk of running into an obscure code that is unfamiliar. I'm sure the average pilot who has spent 20 years flying in Florida can't rattle the various frozen precipitation codes off the top of their head.
It wasn't METAR in particular though that concerned me as much as the mentality. And knowledge of how to decode a metar isn't actually important, as you never have to do it when you're flying. The only time a pilot will encounter a METAR is on the ground, unless they have one of those fancy glass cockpit things you don't put much credit in.
Does flying really mean a glass cockpit to you? Why not look outside and potentially see something new?
Honestly, I don't spend much time outside in general. I'm not much of an outdoors person. Besides, I can see a lot more variation in terrain in a sim than in real life, because in a sim I'm not constrained by the cost of travel.
How far does a flight sim take you?
That's only a problem if you need to actually go someplace. Most of the pilots I know don't actually pilot an aircraft if they actually have to go somewhere - even ones qualified to fly airliners tend to ride as passengers in airliners. You need a fairly expensive aircraft if you want to reliably travel from point A to point B without being held hostage to all kinds of minor weather issues that larger aircraft can fly in. If you want to do a 1000 mile trip VFR you might get stuck for a few days by bad weather, and if you want to fly IFR you might have problems like icing or storms.
The whole point is to fly... have a different perspective.
Have you considered that different people fly for different reasons? People drive for different reasons as well. I've found that many of my drivers for wanting to fly don't actually require flying. Sure, I'd rather get the benefits of being able to go places and so on, but it comes at a price.
The old farts at the airport are a sour crowd. Too many authority freaks and dittoheads. Don't pay them any attention, because they aren't flying often anyway.
True enough, though I suspect they'd be flying more if they could actually afford it, or didn't have crippling medical problems like high blood pressure or diabetes. :)
Don't get me wrong - I wouldn't discourage anybody from giving flying a try if they have an interest in it. I just think that the costs have risen to the point where a lot of people have been pushed past the tipping point. Nothing in life is exactly the way I'd like it to be, and that is just something I have to deal with. The problem is that when you're doing something as a hobby and the barriers become considerable, then the fun you get out of it just doesn't justify what you have to put into it in order to make it possible. I could go fly a plane for 2 hours a month (which, honestly, wouldn't help me be a very proficient pilot), or I could buy just about any gadget I could want for my other hobbies for the same cost. Money spent on flying just doesn't go as far.
I make about $130k a year and live in south Texas, which puts me upper middle class. I stopped flying a few years ago because I simply could not justify the costs. I have a commerical instrument rating and about 1000 hours of flight time. I would have to deny my kids access to lessons or sports teams to afford it. Rental is not cheap, physicals are not cheap, fuel is not cheap. Owning an aircraft is crazy expensive, besides the purchase you need a place to keep it, it has to have an annual inspection, which is much more expensive and invasive than what is done with a car (I'm not saying it is unjustified, just expensive.). Sure you can buy into a club, but availability of the aircraft becomes an issue because one does share it after all. I'd like to keep flying, but it just doesn't seem reasonable for this phase of life.
Just because it isn't new and shiny does not mean it's broken. Yes, METAR/TAF looked good on TTY canary. Is it really that hard to figure them out? Really?
Besides, just click "Plain Language" when you get an on-line briefing on duats.com, and it will translate the METARs and TAFs and PIREPs into plane language. How hard is that?
Couldn't agree more. Why is it on the test then?
I really don't have any problems with reading METARs. I just find that they're symptomatic of the general mindset, and one of the lesser issues.
I was thinking about something more like this. That is a chart that no pilot I've met actually uses, and for which you can expect several questions on a written exam, particularly around obscure symbols/etc.
And my point wasn't that you can't find decent weather information online - that's easy to do these days. My point was that the mindset of the FAA is around weather products that made sense in the 70, and not in an age where everybody checks weather underground before going to work.
Don't get me wrong - lots of people enjoy flying for the reasons that you do. There is nothing wrong with it.
I just don't get terribly excited by 1970s technology in the cockpit. I'd probably have more fun figuring out how to program a drone to fly autonomously.
Most of our GA aircraft are based on designs that haven't changed in 50 years or more. There is an aircraft in development aimed squarely at many of the shortcomings of the old designs, flying 5-7 with the space and comfort of an automobile, at higher speeds than typical GA aircraft (200+kts) and with fuel economy better than most cars on the road (40mpg): http://www.synergyaircraft.com/technical.html
Another anonymous poster. Probably already talked to daddy for a loan to start his own "consultancy" business.
Generally renting an airplane is done by "Hobbes Time"--basically the amount of time the airplane is running, not when it's just sitting on the ground. That means that 4 hour lunch to an airport 60 miles away in an airplane that rents for $110/hour does not cost $440. It costs more like $150, assuming about 0.7 hours each way. (Some rental companies charge a minimum Hobbes time for overnight stays; one club I belonged to charged a minimum 2 hour/day charge for overnight stays; if you fly less than 2 hours that day they rounded up to 2 hours.)
Yup, though in my case it is more like an hour flight each way, at $130/hr for a 172. You're right that the cost is closer to $260 in that case, but it goes up fast the further you go.
From what I hear at airports in suburban areas the minimum hobbs is more like 5hr/day, though it probably depends greatly whether you're talking about a weekday or weekend.
It's extremely common to see pilots use the old ILS/VOR receivers in their airplane coupled with software like ForeFlight for the iPad. The ForeFlight subscription is cheap--perhaps $150/year for geo-referenced IFR charts and geo-referenced taxi-way charts as well as updated VFR maps.
True, and we're finally starting to see FOSS software become available, or commercial software on FOSS operating systems. However, the reason people fly using the tablets is mainly a workaround because integrating the avionics is so darn expensive. Nobody uses Foreflight because they prefer it to a G1000/etc. They use it because it costs $500+150/yr and not $40k+4k/yr (plus whatever it costs to occasionally fix it when it breaks).
But that's a personal thing--and if this ain't your thing, it ain't your thing. Like people who don't like building computers from scratch (like me)--if you don't like doing it, then don't.
I think this is what it boils down to. Some people don't mind flying 1970s planes with steam gauges at 90kts. Others don't find that particularly interesting. I'm sure lots of people would find how I spend my weekends incredibly boring...
Well, they say there is a pilot shortage out there too. Which is a lie. The airlines simply have a shortage of pilots willing to donate $100k of personally financed funds in training and experience to work for a near minimum wage job.
Bottom line: why spend 100k-150k on your own training/opportunity costs, all to make $15k to $20k a year for a few years, maybe get a copilot position after that for 35k, maybe a pilot situation after 5 years of experience (which will take 6-8 years in reality, due to furloughs), and watch as retirement and other benefits rapidly disappear as you approach mid-career?
Folks who are mid career have it great compared to what folks getting into it can look forward to, and their predecessors had it oodles better then.
Flying for fun and occasional business is expensive. But it is also not much more expensive than it was 30 years ago (perhaps 20% more in constant dollars). The cold hard truth is that people don't make as much in constant dollars now, and that expense went out the window for the vast majority of the middle class long ago.
In constant dollars, the initial cost of buying a plane is quite a bit lower than it was 30 years ago (mostly because the fleet ages year for year because hardly any airplanes are made any more). The cost of maintenance has gone up due to age, even as shop costs for aviation have gone down. Parts have gone up. Fuel (at around $5.50 a gallon) is roughly 20% more expensive in constant dollars. Flight training is roughly 35% more expensive in constant dollars (due to trends in increasing the average time a person is asked to train before soloing and taking exams).
On the other hand, there is a vast world of unique experiences out there one simply cannot have unless one flies themselves around. There are fewer people who can prioritize/afford it in the middle class. In a world where median engineering or technical fields would pay $175k a year in constant dollars since the mid-60's, when reality is more like 85-100k, there will be adjustments.
In the mean time, I'm happily trading extra years of working life for being able to fly to mountain wilderness airstrips to camp and fish in solitude, desert airstrips to explore remote canyons, ski areas to take advantage of powder days without turning into an expensive, multi-day trip, and see my parents as they grow old more often (for less than flying a commercial flight). It costs...yes...and I am fortunate to be able to have one hobby I love that I can sacrifice for. I wouldn't trade these things as a younger person for an early retirement any day.
From what I hear at airports in suburban areas the minimum hobbs is more like 5hr/day, though it probably depends greatly whether you're talking about a weekday or weekend.
5?!? That's crazy! The highest I've ever seen was 2hrs minimum for a weekday and 3hrs for a weekend--and that from a flight school which had their planes constantly rented out. The club where I was renting was 2 min for a weekend and 1 for a weekday.
Couldn't agree more. Why is it on the test then?
Because the FAA isn't happy until no-one is happy.
1. That's all a person needs, or wants most of the time, to fly. Old radios. Round gauges. The rest has had zero impact on safety. Safety comes from between the ears, not from behind the panel.
2. Costs. Yes, but it is only slightly more expensive in constant dollars than 30 years ago. The real issue is that we all make less in constant dollars.
3. Regs are ridiculous at times. Again, flying is expensive. I have a dual GPS IFR panel. Not a single radio in the panel costs more than 3500. You can spend all you want. Or you can spend less...for used.
4. ADS-B is nice. But that's all. It only enhances safety...but it has not shown itself to actually improve it significantly enough to measure. Remember- if you avoid making the decision to fly into instrument conditions when you are not rated for them, and are careful enough to not run out of gas, you've just eliminated the causes for 95% of all accidents. Mechanical issues make up most of the rest. Things like mid-airs are so far down the list, you might as well worry about lightning. The latest tech has not proven itself to have any impact on general aviation safety- even in the aircraft so equipped. With one notable exception: the new ELT's (406 MHz).
5. Regs squelch anythign new coming into aviation. And the personalities one finds in aviation are often deeply conservative, curmudgeonly, and sort of unpleasant anyways.
6. Yes, it seems to be a badge of honor for the FAA to stay locked in the past...sort of like medical residencies ("We had to pull 36 hour shifts as residents, so new med students should too."). It is silly. After 30 years of flying, when they actually had teletypes and sub 100 baud faxes, it is silly to have to do a decode of weather.
You can load up a 182 with 4 persons, their stuff, and nearly 5 hours of fuel, and cruise around 130 knots. You can spend hours looking at ads for 182's under $60k.
That's a $400,000 plane, that only seats 4 people.
If you want one that is $60k, it will be more than 40 years old or have serious issues.
More importantly, the OP is about keeping the private aviation industry afloat. Selling used Cessnas isn't going to do that.
Loading...
I will agree w/one of your complaints. The old farts at the airport are a sour crowd.
Do you include yourself among those sour farts? Just sayin'...
They don't grade fathers, but if your daughter's a stripper, you fucked up. --Chris Rock
Is current GA activity intrinsically low, or is it low compared to the Good Old Days of the 1950s and 1960s general aviation boom?
Our GA airports are somewhat less than inviting to visitors. There was an editorial/blog in Flying magazine on this subject recently.
Airplanes really are expensive to buy and to operate.
Does anybody learn to fly for fun or for private transportation anymore? Everybody nowadays gets their PPL because it's the prerequisite for everything else. After the novelty wore off I too came to the realization that a PPL was sterile, a dead end, and am now working on my commercial license.
...laura
Some of this has to do with the WWII generation dying off. They grew up at a time when piloting a small plane was the height of excitement and adventure. There are far fewer young people interested in flying.
1970s? Ours is 1940s technology in the cockpit! It's not the technology about flying that excites me. I don't really care about the technology. I fly to be in the air, not to play with technology.
If you only care about flying technology (you mentioned drones) I can really recommend getting into RC, it's something I do also (radio controlled helicopters, which is also a problem because they aren't cheap). RC helicopters (proper ones, single rotor ones) have a lot of interesting technology challenges because they are inherently unstable. There's quite a few various gyro and control boards from places like Sparkfun and if you really want to get your hands dirty there is a lot of interesting stuff you can do with a RC helicopter.
Oolite: Elite-like game. For Mac, Linux and Windows
1. That's all a person needs, or wants most of the time, to fly. Old radios. Round gauges. The rest has had zero impact on safety. Safety comes from between the ears, not from behind the panel.
Well, yes and no. What is in-between the ears depends in part on how information is presented to them. You can give somebody an altitude and a CDI and if they have the instruments set up properly and watch them they won't hit anything in a cloud. But, if the PFD displays the surrounding terrain and color-codes any peaks that exceeds the plane's altitude then a wall of red in front of the plane is going to get somebody's attention more readily than a course dial that is set to the wrong value. A "Terrain!" callout certainly will wake up the complacent pilot as well.
I agree that simply providing info and warnings is just a backup, because the real solution is to not point the nose of the plane someplace that your brain hasn't already gone, and that starts before takeoff. In an emergency it will take brains and training to cope with the warnings you do get, regardless of their source.
However, this is all talking about safety - if I just wanted to be safe I'd stay in bed. In my case motivations for flying went beyond simply wanting to get from point A to point B safely. I certainly agree that individual motivations vary considerably. However, my car has leather seats even though it does nothing to make my drive safer, and I am certainly not the only one with leather seats...
A significant problem is aviation isn't accessible anymore. How could you discover the joy of aviation when it is increasingly off limits? While it is tucked safely away behind razor wire and dudes with badges and M14s.
Combine that with the average person's exposure to aviation now - people experience flying as passengers of commercial airlines, which is a process whereby you are afraid of everything and endure systematic oppression by all parties involved. The food is terrible, and you are a statistic.
gosgog:
I have pretty close to 7000 hours Pilot-in-Command....Airline...no mostly my own business. Did I make a potfull? Hell no! Did I enjoy it...every minute of it. Want to be a good pilot...get airobatic lessons (best thing you'll ever do & will get you out of more trouble and make you really an in Command guy!).
Want to know why the numbers in pilots have gone down....Money! Want to know why there are very few small private airplanes manufactured? LAWYERS & INSURANCE COMPANIES!! (Along with everything else that's cost & fucked over in the U.S.~!). Case in point to do with Aviation...true story...A guy in Kansas City who owned a beech baron...had a couple of drinks at lunch, (BooZE is a real no-no for aviation!), took his two kids up after, crashed and all died. Now the wife sued (LAWYERS don't you love 'em) Beechcraft, Hartzell (Propellers).Lycoming (engines), goodyear(Tires), King (radios), fuel,etc.& the aircraft Insurance Company. They all paid rather than go to court! So what happened...Insurance of course went up for everybody and All the Aviation industry prices went up. The F.A.A. of course got involved to some extent etc.,BUT the REAL PROBLEM & CAUSE was not the Airplane per se., but the ASSHOLE FLYING IT. & THE PRICE OF FIGHTING IT IN COURT, it was CHEAPER TO PAY!
What kind of math are you doing? The Cessna 172R that I fly burns around 7.5 gallons per hour. At $6.50/gallon for 100LL (average in my area), that's $48.75/hour.
General aviation is definitely one of those hobbies you have to be willing to drop major cash on if you're going to do it with any regularity, that's for sure.
Chances that they were even alive at the time to experience the crisis of confidence?
ROTFLMAO @ "Chumpy" -> http://yro.slashdot.org/commen...
(You sure "talk a good game" -> http://games.slashdot.org/comm... but you can't even produce a MERE SCRIPT!, windbag...)
You aren't even on the level of a "script kiddie", & full of HOT AIR!
You certainly won't reply there in that 2nd link I posted either, as that would remove your downmods to my posts like this one you can't validly disprove or justify your downmod on -> http://games.slashdot.org/comm...
Oh, I suspect that IS the case here (simply logging out of a registered account & trolling by ac is a common troll trick around here OR using alternate registered 'luser' accounts sockpuppets to do the job will also, & Lumpy is LOADED with those & trolling - which doesn't matter: He PROVES he's all talk, no action (or skills, OR brains, lol))
(You're all TALK, & NO action "CHUMPY!)
* :)
(You know it, I know it, & so does anyone reading AND laughing their asses off @ you now... lol!)
APK
P.S.=> Answer the question in the subject-line Lumpy - since you had to "eat your wrods" in the 1st link above flavored with your FOOT IN YOUR MOUTH + the "bitter taste of SELF-defeat", lol...
... apk
ROTFLMAO @ "Chumpy" -> http://yro.slashdot.org/commen...
(You sure "talk a good game" -> http://games.slashdot.org/comm... but you can't even produce a MERE SCRIPT!, windbag...)
You aren't even on the level of a "script kiddie", & full of HOT AIR!
You certainly won't reply there in that 2nd link I posted either, as that would remove your downmods to my posts like this one you can't validly disprove or justify your downmod on -> http://games.slashdot.org/comm...
Oh, I suspect that IS the case here (simply logging out of a registered account & trolling by ac is a common troll trick around here OR using alternate registered 'luser' accounts sockpuppets to do the job will also, & Lumpy is LOADED with those & trolling - which doesn't matter: He PROVES he's all talk, no action (or skills, OR brains, lol))
(You're all TALK, & NO action "CHUMPY!)
* :)
(You know it, I know it, & so does anyone reading AND laughing their asses off @ you now... lol!)
APK
P.S.=> Answer the question in the subject-line Lumpy - since you had to "eat your wrods" in the 1st link above flavored with your FOOT IN YOUR MOUTH + the "bitter taste of SELF-defeat", lol...
... apk
ROTFLMAO @ "Chumpy" -> http://yro.slashdot.org/commen...
(You sure "talk a good game" -> http://games.slashdot.org/comm... but you can't even produce a MERE SCRIPT!, windbag...)
You aren't even on the level of a "script kiddie", & full of HOT AIR!
You certainly won't reply there in that 2nd link I posted either, as that would remove your downmods to my posts like this one you can't validly disprove or justify your downmod on -> http://games.slashdot.org/comm...
Oh, I suspect that IS the case here (simply logging out of a registered account & trolling by ac is a common troll trick around here OR using alternate registered 'luser' accounts sockpuppets to do the job will also, & Lumpy is LOADED with those & trolling - which doesn't matter: He PROVES he's all talk, no action (or skills, OR brains, lol))
(You're all TALK, & NO action "CHUMPY!)
* :)
(You know it, I know it, & so does anyone reading AND laughing their asses off @ you now... lol!)
APK
P.S.=> Answer the question in the subject-line Lumpy - since you had to "eat your wrods" in the 1st link above flavored with your FOOT IN YOUR MOUTH + the "bitter taste of SELF-defeat", lol...
... apk
I have just witnessed that slash dot is no different from all the other sites which encourage commentary; eventually, the comments devolve into political rhetoric bearing no relation to the original subject. These wise posters need to stick to the topic.
As to that, being a student pilot myself, I can say with confidence that the costs of flying, coupled with increasing FAA interference, closing of airports, liability issues and time limits are ALL to blame for the number of GA pilots falling off. Add to that the huge cost of getting certified to fly as a commercial pilot, only to be stuck in a slow career path that pays less than a CTA bus driver, and you can see why professional flying is also not attractive. Top it off with $6 avgas, and the final nails are waiting to be driven into the coffin. Good luck, y'all....