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New Jersey Auto Dealers Don't Want to Face Tesla
cartechboy writes "It feels like this story is becoming repetitive: X state is trying to ban Tesla stores, or the ability for an automaker to sell directly to a consumer. Either way, it's all aimed at Tesla. Now it's New Jersey's turn as a hearing today could end up banning Tesla stores in the state. Naturally Tesla's displeased with this and is crying foul. A rule change that is expected to be approved today would require all new-car dealers to provide a franchise agreement in order to receive a license from the state. Obviously Tesla (the manufacturer) can't provide a franchise agreement to itself (the distributor). The proposed rule would also require dealers to maintain a 1,000 square foot facility, the ability to show two cars, and service customer cars on site. Tesla doesn't meet that last requirement at any of its galleries, and most of the Tesla stores are located in shopping malls which mean they are smaller than 1,000 square feet. Tesla's arguing the New Jersey Motor Vehicle Commission is overstepping its bounds. Will Tesla be able to defeat this new rule in New Jersey as it has overcome issues in many other states?" (Also covered by the Wall Street Journal.)
Here's a perfect example of why the federal Constitution has an interstate commerce clause. States are interfering with interstate commerce to protect local businesses. Time for some federal legislation to shut this down.
"National Security is the chief cause of national insecurity." - Celine's First Law
The cars already cost so much that they won't impact anyones existing business.
The Government just wants what is best for the consumer.
The right wing should be opposed on free-market principles. The left wing should be opposed on environmental grounds. So which politicians should be in favour of this regulation again?
Sure would be great if I can make a law that bans competition from out of country, out of state, or whomever I do not want to compete with me when I negotiate a contract job.
What I could charge? The sky would be the limit.
Of course that is evil damn socialism for me and we can't have that now can we? But if some businesses or corporations do the same thing. Then it is for the good of the economy and ok etc.
http://saveie6.com/
Since we are constantly regaled how awful the Tesla is. - They all burn up, they are stupid, They are too expensive, I can't drive the Trans American Highway in one, electric cars suck - why don't we just let the free market do what it always does, eliminates bad products.
I'm pretty sure at other times, car dealership owners are all about the free market, competition, and the heartbeat of America.
The shepherds did so well protecting the flock that the sheep no longer believed that wolves existed.
The number two is ridiculous and can't exist.
Any sufficiently unpopular but cohesive argument is indistinguishable from trolling.
The solution is to bitch publicly like this for now, but the reality is they need a workaround. They need to set up a separate company much like Coke had a separate bottler. Have them do local service and be the jiffy lube of Tesla and join/kiss ass of all these regional moderately powerful/rich douche bags.
it's the president/precedent/prescience/whatever
Because so many states are disallowed.
Have gnu, will travel.
Why can't the Governor of New Jersey act as a bridge between the two parties?
Keep up your valiant defense of the free market. :S
What's wrong with the requirement to be able to service customer vehicles on site? Making it as convenient as possible to buy a car but having to take it to some far off location to actually get it fixed under warranty sounds like lousy customer service.
1. Find out which dealerships belong to the associations trying to block sales of electric cars.
2. Find out which cars the dealerships sell.
3. Let the car manufacturers know that you (and family members) will never consider buying their products and the reason why.
NJ has demonstrated time and again that corrupt politics rule the day. The state car dealer association controls a substantial amount of kickba...er...political contribution budget.
Hopefully, Tesla doesn't knuckle under and just encourages NJ purchasers to head over to NY or PA and buy their cars there.
Car dealerships are an anachronism.Internet is the rule now.
In this day and age, having commissioned sales people, whose sole purpose is to argue against everything one has read on the web or in Consumer Reports in order to get you to buy shit, is complete horseshit. I go in with the attitude of salespeople are liars until proven otherwise.
I am NEVER wrong.
Ever.
It's the closest thing to being a God there is.
Same goes for ALL retail sales people. (Hear that Best Buy or Microcenter!)
See, retail sales is all slash and burn - they'll never see you again and vice versa.: there is no reason to develop a "relationship" with you. So, they'll fuck you and the law is on their side.
Many members of Congress own car dealerships or are closely associated with those who do.
Being protected monopolies, they are very profitable.
Surely you've noticed that all the products of technology get cheaper every year except cars?
For a free country you americans sure have a lot of rules. Minimum square meters, service on site, minimum 2 cars, bla bla. Soviet Russia was probably less restrictive on selling freaking cars. They are CARS. Nuclear weapons have less regulations lately...
Companies do not like change and competition.
Don't fight for your country, if your country does not fight for you.
thought I'd chime in on why dealerships are getting a free ride before the thread is choked with constitutionalists :P.
Dealers stock parts and provide a distribution network for said parts. This is why my '94 Honda Accord still runs (and why my Volvo 240 DL would have been running if that $#%@! hadn't rear ended me).
If we remove the dealer who is going to stock parts, deliver them, and install them? I'm sure you can come up with a thousand free market answers, but the fact is running that sort of business is _expensive_. Most of the obvious solutions become races to the bottom. Eventually either you stop getting parts and service for cars after 5 years or your start getting gouged in ways you can only imagine.
So yeah, it's a bit more complex an issue then just: Dealers Bad! Tesla Good!....
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Can anyone actually get to NJ? More importantly is there electricity there?
The car manufacturers are at the mercy of the dealers and dealer associations. In their heart of hearts, some would like to pursue Tesla's strategy or at least compete with the dealers.
You can punish the manufacturers but they can't do anything back.
Vehicle dealers and real estate developers are reliable large contributors to local politicians.
So require all dealers to stock parts for N years. No need to have these other silly requirements that don't address your problem.
Even if Tesla somehow managed to meet these new rules, it seems the NJMVC can just change them again.
Surely you can't be serious...Shirley
Laws in Texas for example:
http://www.statutes.legis.state.tx.us/Docs/OC/htm/OC.2301.htm#2301.4671
(c) Except as provided by this section, a manufacturer or distributor may not directly or indirectly:
(1) own an interest in a franchised or nonfranchised dealer or dealership;
(2) operate or control a franchised or nonfranchised dealer or dealership; or
(3) act in the capacity of a franchised or nonfranchised dealer.
Common mistake. You have been used to the "truth in labeling law" "truth in advertising law" etc for so long, you have assumed it applies to everyone. Sorry my dear friend, the politicians are exempted from those laws. They can label themselves "free market loving libertarian right wingers" or "mother earth worshiping tree hugging beer-can-recycling post-cosumer-waste-reconsuming environment loving left wingers". But there is absolutely no guarantee the politician you find under those labels are truly what the label says.
That's because you're making two straw men and knocking them down. I guarantee you that folks like Alan Greyson on the left and Rand Paul on the right would support Tesla here and they're not the most extreme on either end - however, we're talking about super-corrupt NJ who still think bridgegate-Christie is a decent governor. You know, the one that gave out pieces of the 9/11 wreckage as political gifts to crony mayors (both Dem and GOP)?
Yeah, that's one corrupt state. I'm certainly not surprised they'd shut out Tesla, in favor of their political-machine-supporting good-op-boy network of car dealers and manufacturers.
In the end, it's all about the money, and NJ has a ton of money mucking with it's politics.
Make sure everyone's vote counts: Verified Voting
The left is up in arms when their darling must face the same rules that every other automaker obeyed for decades.
No kidding. I wouldn't expect anything different from the northern states I fled. This is the same system that can't get rid of the beer distributor system in PA that benefits no-one but their membership. Hope they all sink!
The right wing should be opposed on free-market principles. The left wing should be opposed on environmental grounds. So which politicians should be in favour of this regulation again?
The pragmatists & cynics who need local, wealthy donors to bankroll their campaigns.
From the movie:
There is no America. There is no democracy. There is only IBM, and ITT, and AT&T. And Dupont, Dow, Union Carbide, and Exxon. Those are the nations of the world today [in 1976]. What do you think the Russians talk about in their councils of state? Karl Marx? They get out their linear programming charts, statistical decision theories, minimax solutions, and compute the price-cost probabilities of their transactions and investments just like we do. We no longer live in a world of nations and ideologies Mr. Beale. The world is a college of corporations inextricably determined by the immutable by-laws of business. The world is a business Mr. Beale. It has been since man climbed out of the slime.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zI5hrcwU7Dk&t=2m15s
If we remove the dealer who is going to stock parts, deliver them, and install them? I'm sure you can come up with a thousand free market answers, but the fact is running that sort of business is _expensive_. Most of the obvious solutions become races to the bottom. Eventually either you stop getting parts and service for cars after 5 years or your start getting gouged in ways you can only imagine.
The same folks who carry parts for no-longer-made Bosch washing machine (whose hot water valve broke in October) that's about ten years old.
If car companies don't want to stock parts they could always release the CAD files after "x" years so anyone can make them as well.
but the dealers run the parts network. Also, car companies keep parts around because of laws that say they have to, not because they love you as a customer.
I don't trust Tesla not to drop me like a rock when it's no longer profitable to support me...
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Or simply show the car in New Jersey and have the purchase transaction go through in another state.
This is a complete mischaracterization of what's going on. It's not that they don't want to compete with Tesla, it's that they want a cut. Right now, it's illegal for automakers to own car dealerships in most states, because when cars were in early adoption the state government didn't want to allow a situation where a car manufacturer pulled out of a state completely because it was unprofitable, leaving the citizens of that state unable to buy cars easily. So dealerships are independent from the manufacturers. Tesla is bypassing this 100 year old, out of date system, because it no longer makes sense, but the dealers aren't afraid of electric cars, they just want to make Tesla "play by the rules" and let the dealers sell (or not) the Tesla cars, so that they an make a profit off them like they do every other car manufacturer.
Who on the right is saying that?
Telsa's sales are a drop in the bucket compared to most makes. Are the dealers afraid that the majors are going to copy Tesla's model and cut them out of the business?
As a non-American, can somebody please explain to me why it is "wrong" for a car company to sell cars directly?
Why do car dealerships get any special treatment, laws and government protection to prop up their existence?
What is so special about a car dealership, why are they allowed to ban a car company from selling.....cars?
Why does this weird shit happen in America?
Im not aware of this weird state of affairs happening in any other country, what is so special about cars?
Its like banning HP from selling computers. Makes no fucking sense at all.
Overpopulated, boring, and you can't buy a Tesla.
Because so many states are disallowed.
Partner with Koingesseggessegesgeg... Because eventually they'll have to fill out a form to block them and no-one will be able to spell it.
Calling someone a "hater" only means you can not rationally rebut their argument.
We can buy an iPhone direct from Apple instead of a wireless provider just as much as buying a TV directly from Samsung or an infinite amount of other goods and services on the internet or in showrooms dedicated to a certain product or line of products. Why are cars the exception??
I guess its no surprise considering that its still illegal to pump your own gas in NJ.
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If you needed any proof that Tesla's cars are superior, the sheer fear the competitors are showing should suffice.
IANAL, but can owners of Tesla open up a puppet company and sell cars on uneasonable terms to it?
By interefering with the sales of Tesla Motors these dealerships are trying to restrain trade. A good judge and jury might award a ton of money to Tesla if any justice occurs. This is a form of evidence that perhaps we need to completely shut down the big three as they obviously intend to continue to use unfair and illegal business practices. As a person we all must decide whether we support crime or not. Restraint of trade is criminal. Therefore the traditional dealerships are public enemies and should be treated as such.
In New Jersey, Tesla should hire Wolff & Samson as their lawyers.
Middlemen are useful for acting as intermediaries between the producer and consumer. However, if the producer can reach the consumer directly, then there need be no laws stopping them doing so. Middlemen add cost to the end customer, so if there the opportunity to cut them out, then it should be taken.
Incidentally, this is why i don't like the idea of american healthcare, as the insurance companies are effectively middlemen who add cost to the whole system with no increase in overall value.
In most countries even trying something like this (N.B. even for mostly socialistic ones) would just be laughed at - being obviously illegal.
Every politician is the correct answer, nowadays.
You are forgetting 'Lobby' influence, and how cheap the congresscritters can be bought by 'special influence' groups.
Yes, it's a conflict of interest, but who cares.
The only thing that seems to matter is how much 'mileage' you can get out of your agenda....FSCK right or wrong.
It's the 'new way', get used to it, or fight it....your choice.
I choose to 'fight'.
Down With Slashdot BETA!!! I've been around the corner and seen the oliphant; you can only abuse me from your perspecti
All Tesla needs to do is find the right people to cut in on the "action" and well Bobs^HVinnies Your Uncle.
But seriously this needs to stop.
Any person using FTFY or editing my postings agrees to a US$50.00 charge
State law insists that all traffic remain in the right-hand lane unless passing, or turning left. That has been in effect for decades, but suddenly now it is an issue?
Not to pick on Oklahoma(I live in Stillwater, OK), this is nationwide, because everyone knows 'the 'fast lane' is faster.
It's a sad fact, but that is how it is nowadays.
The 'correct responce' would have been: ;-)Yeah, that's it. *former PA resident
1.) get vehicle make/model/description
2.) any vehicle ID numbers(dump truck, corp. vehicle, etc.)
3.) Lic tag #
4. ) Give info to Insurance agent
5.)????Profit?
Down With Slashdot BETA!!! I've been around the corner and seen the oliphant; you can only abuse me from your perspecti
Man, what a corrupt state.
Why not? Corporations license stuff to themselves all the time, corporations sell themselves stuff all the time, why can't corporations license themselves? That's not obvious at all. Or perhaps they should have to incorporate their dealership network in each state, then grant an agreement to the network? It's still just one hand washing the other, though, attached to the same organism.
"You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
...specifically, why does Tesla have a problem with having to actually provide after-sales service at their dealership? ...and this goes double for a manufacturer like Tesla-- it's not like Joe's Auto Repair down the street is going to be able to fix a Tesla unless it's something trivial and unrelated to the powertrain.
Granted, I don't live in an area that has those near-mythical Tesla charging stations along the highway, nor have I even seen a Tesla automobile on the road, but this stance by Tesla leads me to only one of four possible conclusions:
1. Teslas are magical cars that never require service.
2. The manufacturer considers their cars to be "disposable" like most consumer electronics nowadays. Today, if your TV set breaks down, you simply toss it away and buy a new one. I suppose Tesla will provide special recycling dumpsters for their product.
3. Tesla automobiles are sold as-is with no warranty, thus no need to provide warranty service. You just take your broken Tesla to Joe's Auto Repair and hope the manufacturer at least provided service documentation.
4. Tesla does provide a warranty, but it requires you to box up your car and mail it to a Factory Authorized Service Center in another continent at your expense.
Besides, we're talking about New Jersey. Last I recall, you weren't even allowed to pump your own gasoline there. I suppose you aren't allowed to plug your Tesla into an electrical outlet by yourself either, which would be pretty inconvenient.
Tesla could play their game if they wanted to. For example, set up a separate dealership company which can contact with the manufacturing arm. If Apple can do it for tax purposes, Tesla could do it too.
Talk about fighting the previous war.
We are eternal, all this pain is an illusion.
I await the righteous Republican outrage over this violation of free market principals and the intrusion of big government into private commerce. Oh, you mean that was all just talk? Move along then.
Where's the outcry from those who claim to be capitalists re the 'free market" and "let the market decide?"
It seems like it's okay to "let the market decide" as long as only their business is allowed to be in the market.
But if there is a possible market failure here then it needs to be addressed.
An effective "democracy" creates the illusion the people have a say in their government.
marketer extradordinaire, walked the talk...
Just create a Twitter account for each plane. Send a tweet every 15 minutes.
The real story here is Tesla success is making everybody else look bad.
They are a threat to much more than the car dealers. They are a threat to the innovate at a snails pace mantra of Detroit. They are a threat to big oil companies. Electricity is about 1/4 the cost of gasoline mile per mile (even comparing a Model S with a Prius, even considering the Model S is a large premium sedan, versus the Prius being a mid size). And they got this far in less than two years of Model S sales. Give them another 5 years and the auto industry will be undergoing an earthquake of innovation with Tesla at the forefront and few companies with enough agility to try to follow.
It won't take long until a few of those state representatives don't get re-elected for their Tesla actions.
Tesla adoption is spreading like wildfire. If Tesla had twice the li-ion battery supply, they would be delivering twice as much.
I have to think the courts are only going to follow the letter of the law in this case, since the spirit of the law is to screw over consumers arbitrarily increasing costs by unnecessarily introducing a middleman.
Setting up a separate dealership/showroom company and then making that company its own separate company with a different board of directors and different management which simply has some sort of exclusive contract with Tesla conforming to whichever state that it is in and then giving Tesla's current investors ownership stakes does seem like it would solve the problem and put a degree of separation between the two entities.
So for instance they could spin off a new company Tesla NJ LLC which simply has a franchise agreement to show Tesla cars in NJ with some sort of contract for doing so. Make the company directly owned by Tesla's existing investors by spinning the company off rather than by Tesla and that should be enough of an arms length for regulators or else it should be upheld by the courts on appeal.
It is more expensive because of the overhead of paying for a completely separate management, but I do recall some old Supreme Court precedents that uphold this state control over licensing requirements for dealerships so directly challenging these laws without new Federal laws to back them up might be problematic.
But that doesn't mean that courts are going to uphold anything more than the letter of the law for a something that clearly negatively effect consumers by arbitrarily increasing costs.
wow, I have the same car (2003 TL), and that is one of my rants. Not only about stealership pricing, but HID headlamps (aka unnecessarily complex technology without any significant gains).
But, FYI in the end i'm running a stock system rather than one of the aftermarket ones, because I discovered a few things.
First, is that no one seems to be able to actually diagnose these things. Is it the bulb, ballast or igniter, or something else? That is why you end up spending $700+labor. Cause the standard practice is to replace the whole shebang if something goes wrong.
Second is that getting the "right" bulb is critical. I spent a few hundred dollars replacing crap and swapping things between left/right, and still not getting consistent ignition. The new "OEM match", name brand bulbs, I was purchasing for $70 from autozone, and another aftermarket vendor were basically crap (DOA or dead in a couple weeks). I assume the ones from the dealer are better tested, but in the end I found a decent brand at oreilly that literally solved all my issues. I would say at this point buy the $120 bulbs from the dealer as the first solution...
But, the second thing that probably causes the most problems is the igniter socket. When a pair of bulbs gets old it requires more power to keep the arc going and the socket tends to deform a little from the extra heat. This means that even a new set of bulbs may not be getting a clean contact in the socket. This results in either too high resistance to generate the arc, or it arcs in the socket!
So, shimming/sanding the (internal) contacts so they are tight against the bulb does wonders.
Finally, if you can see any arc when you turn the headlamp on (do this in a dark garage) the electronics are probably working and its a bulb problem.
Lastly, even the dealerships don't seem to know this information because they quoted me $1000 to replace all that crap after charging me $100 to "diagnose" what was wrong. In the end all the car actually needed was a little TLC and a decent pair of bulbs.
BTW: I did a bit of rock climbing a few years ago..
If you support Telsa, please sign this White House petition: https://petitions.whitehouse.gov/petition/allow-tesla-motors-sell-directly-consumers-all-50-states/bFN7NHQR
The White House might never respond, but more signatures shows support for free market.
I'm not taking sides here... only looking at things from an objective point of view. Any company doing honest business should have the privilege to sell anywhere they want, just as long as all common laws are accounted for and taxes are paid in good faith. Just because Tesla wants to sell its own cars directly to consumers, doesn't mean the violated any laws. I mean if this should be banned, then other manufacturers of other consumer items should be banned too? Besides, Tesla says "No NJ, no problem!". And that's good for them. Tesla vehicles are the new trend. Consumers are willing to go a bit of extra miles to get it. I would just setup stores near the NJ borders and they just need to cross that border to bring the car back to NJ. The NJ dealers can't get a piece of business from Tesla and being competed due to the attractive vehicle so they play dirty. We are not talking about requirements of a franchise dealer here... we're simply talking about not allowing Tesla to sell direct. NJ is pathetic! The governor is definitely pathetic...
Restraint of trade. Imagine that happening in New Jersey.
"Do the Right Thing. It will gratify some people and astound the rest." - Mark Twain
Nearly all states have laws that do roughly the same thing. (48 if i remember correctly.) It's not a republican or democrat thing, it's just the nature of how laws can be manipulated by special interests. It's the same reason we have laws to license many professions such as hairdressers, plumbers, etc. It sucks but it just shows that money and intensity gets things done in politics.
It really isn't anything about Tesla, since other automakers aren't currently building vehicles that compete directly with them. It's about protecting the dealership model and subsequent monopolies and laws allowing only dealerships to sell vehicles. I'm sure if allowed, GM, Ford, Honda, Toyota, or a number of other manufactures such as those in China would love to set up shop and experiment with selling and servicing vehicles directly. Potentially easier access to our market, better profits, able to better manage the marketing and direction of their brands, etc. Once Tesla is allowed to sell/retail directly what's stopping others from saying they should have the same rights?
What, in the (allegedly) Land of the Free and Home of the Brave, is the State doing issuing licenses to businesses to operate?
Birds are not dinosaur descendants;birds are dinosaurs, for all useful meanings of "birds", "are" and "dinosaurs"
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Ah, income tax. I had forgotten about that. Yeah. I'm not really worried about that. I can see why you are. Difference of opinion.
Show me a Free Market. Anywhere. Any time. Please. :D
The CIA and NSA are doing more than invading your privacy. They're forming public opinion by using astroturfing, shills, social media tricks, etc. And you think the phasing out of incadescents is a trick to get into your house? Ugh....
"Obamaphones" is a non issue, a made up issue.... and a little subsidy that existed long before him. Whatever. Meanwhile, I don't see your kind railing against huge subsidies for profitable companies.....
Why on earth would I want to live in North Korea? It's a dictatorship hellhole. Logical Fallacy: Black or White. How about I go live in scandanavia? They have lots of socialism, but also lots of capitalism, and pretty women. :D
It's true, I shouldn't get so riled up.
No, it's not terrible that people have to buy bicycles. Lookk !@#$. No one is saying everyone has to be equal. The only people saying that are YOU people, when you're making up what we think. We lefties don't say that. That's !@#$ing silly. Every living creature on this earth has to work for it's food and shelter. We don't say differently. What we want is an equal playing field, and it's quite obvious that the United States, as it's going, is Corrupted by the influence of Money. And monied people don't like sharing, and they've been rigging the game in their favor for decades now. We just want to level the playing field so everyone has equal OPPORTUNITY. Equal Stuff is just.... ew. Terrible.
Also, I'm 35. I'm not quite a young wippersnapper. I'm gainfully employed. I'm starting a business. I'm a capitalist....
And Heinlein is great. I've read quite a bit of his stuff, with an open mind. The Moon Is A Harsh Mistress is a great book. (also a libertarian wet dream and A Work Of Fiction) Also, he's a dirty old man, but a lot of them were in those days... Zinn is hardly a communist. Hell, he might BE a commie, but that doesn't matter. The book is really great. Really. Go read it, with an open mind....
Rand Paul is not Ron Paul. Ron would absolutely support Tesla... Rand? Eh.... He's.... kind of a Tool. Sorry, but he is.