New French Law Prohibits After-Hours Work Emails

Hugh Pickens DOT Com (2995471) writes "Lucy Mangan reports at The Guardian that a new labor agreement in France means that employees must ignore their bosses' work emails once they are out of the office and relaxing at home – even on their smartphones. Under the deal, which affects a million employees in the technology and consultancy sectors (including the French arms of Google, Facebook, and Deloitte), employees will also have to resist the temptation to look at work-related material on their computers or smartphones – or any other kind of malevolent intrusion into the time they have been nationally mandated to spend on whatever the French call la dolce vita. "We must also measure digital working time," says Michel De La Force, chairman of the General Confederation of Managers. "We can admit extra work in exceptional circumstances but we must always come back to what is normal, which is to unplug, to stop being permanently at work." However critics say it will impose further red tape on French businesses, which already face some of the world's tightest labor laws." (Continues) "However according to Simon Kelner French productivity levels outstrip those of Britain and Germany, and French satisfaction with their quality of life is above the OECD average. "No wonder, we may say. We'd all like to take a couple of hours off for lunch, washed down with a nice glass of Côtes du Rhône, and then switch our phones off as soon as we leave work. It's just that our bosses won't let us.""

Comments

At least someone appreciates work-life balance

[Anonymous Coward]

If I'm off the clock, I should be able to completely ignore work and everything work-related. I should be able to leave my work smartphone in the office.

Re:At least someone appreciates work-life balance

[pezpunk]

i agree. unfortunately, that's "un-American".

Re:At least someone appreciates work-life balance

[Shakrai]

If I'm off the clock, I should be able to completely ignore work and everything work-related.

In a fair world you would be able to. Of course, in a fair world people also wouldn't check Facebook during business hours, or read personal e-mails, answer texts/calls their personal cell phones, shop on Amazon, or gossip with their coworkers at the coffee pot/water cooler outside of designated break times.

The work-life balance tilts both ways. YMMV, but I come out significantly ahead when I compare the personal things I do on company time against the occasional phone call or e-mail I handle during the evening or on the weekend.

Re:At least someone appreciates work-life balance

[therealkevinkretz]

In a fair world you'd be able to accept more responsibilty in exchange for a set of benefits (salary, etc) you considered fair. I've interviewed for (and been offered and variously accepted) jobs ranging from a 9-to-5 position for a utility company that would be very stable and practically permanent to one at a startup with a small staff that meant only a couple of people were responsible for crucial 24/7 infrastructure. The former paid less but was, again, stable. The latter paid more, with promise of reward should the company succeed (it didn't).

If I'm willing to carry a mobile device outside of business hours, what bureaucrat's business is it to tell me I can't?

Re:At least someone appreciates work-life balance

[ShanghaiBill]

If I'm off the clock, I should be able to completely ignore work and everything work-related.

Lots of French people can ignore everything work related, since they have 11% unemployment, 25% for people aged 18-25. The last thing France needs is yet another reason for businesses to locate elsewhere.

Re:At least someone appreciates work-life balance

[Anonymous Coward]

If I'm willing to carry a mobile device outside of business hours, what bureaucrat's business is it to tell me I can't?

Exactly! If you choose to accept the responsibility of the job, extending to after-hours work, then you should have the right to do so unmolested. However, a business should not *require* this of anyone who is not willing to do it. If the job will need 24/7 support, then the business should be up front about that when hiring for the position.

Re:At least someone appreciates work-life balance

[fustakrakich]

he last thing France needs is yet another reason for businesses to locate elsewhere.

Yes, it would be nice if the rest of the world caught up. There is no reason to make anybody work more then 6 hours a day, 30 hours a week...

Re:At least someone appreciates work-life balance

[fche]

Aw heck, there is no reason to make anybody work at all.

Re:At least someone appreciates work-life balance

[fustakrakich]

Soon, when we mechanize. There will be no need to work.

Re:At least someone appreciates work-life balance

[Anonymous Coward]

O.o

Why would you have your smart phone hooked up to the office? I guess I just may have a job where if I need to read emails, I'm at my desk reading emails. If I'm not at my desk to read emails, I'm in a meeting or someplace else where emails via phone are nothing but a distraction.

Re:At least someone appreciates work-life balance

[cHALiTO]

Must read:

http://marshallbrain.com/manna...

Re:At least someone appreciates work-life balance

[Pope]

Right, because no one goofed off at work before the internet came along.

Re:At least someone appreciates work-life balance

[Anonymous Coward]

If I'm off the clock, I should be able to completely ignore work and everything work-related. I should be able to leave my work smartphone in the office.

In a FREE world, you already are.

And in a FREE world, you could also respond to work-related issues after hours.

Re:At least someone appreciates work-life balance

[Russ1642]

I've been working three eight hour days per week for quite a while now. I know it bugs the other people in the office but all you have to do is ask for it when you interview for the job. I make enough to be comfortable with that many hours and I'm sure there are LOTS of people that make enough to be ok with far less than 40 hours too. They're giving up a large portion of their life to work they don't need to be doing. Just think, you could have permanent four day weekends too. There's nothing stopping you.

Re:At least someone appreciates work-life balance

[NotDrWho]

If man is still alive.

Re:At least someone appreciates work-life balance

[mrchaotica]

"In the year 2525..."

Re:At least someone appreciates work-life balance

[Anonymous Coward]

Hell before the internet, I'd jack off at work (in the restroom of course) many a time.

Re:At least someone appreciates work-life balance

[K. S. Kyosuke]

That's a non-issue: a 24/7 support job means you're never reading e-mails outside paid working hours. ;-)

Re:At least someone appreciates work-life balance

[Anonymous Coward]

And in a FREE world, you could also respond to work-related issues after hours.

The only reason the vast majority of people respond to work email outside of work is that they will be punished otherwise.

Re:At least someone appreciates work-life balance

[ColdWetDog]

Hell before the internet, I'd jack off at work (in the restroom of course) many a time.

Uh, now what do you do?

Wait. Don't answer that.

Re:At least someone appreciates work-life balance

[noh8rz10]

And in a FREE world, you could also respond to work-related issues after hours.

The only reason the vast majority of people respond to work email outside of work is that they will be punished otherwise.

i respond to emails all the time. Here's the breakdown of my emails: 30% delete without reading, 30% FYI, 25% simple response needed, 5% complex response needed. My best strategy for managing emails is to triage into these buckets and respond to the simple ones as fast as possible to get them off my plate. These are the smartphone responses, "Check with Jim he's the best resource for this". I respond to these after hours so they're not stacked up in the morning.

Re:At least someone appreciates work-life balance

[Anonymous Coward]

It does not tilt both ways. That's the myth they sell you when they cut your vacation hours. Again.

Re:At least someone appreciates work-life balance

[ColdWetDog]

And in a FREE world, you could also respond to work-related issues after hours.

The only reason the vast majority of people respond to work email outside of work is that they will be punished otherwise.

The only reason? How about fixing minor things before they become major? Helping coworkers and expecting a quid pro quo? Interest in the world? Helping the poor, weak, and downtrodden?

And money. Lots of money. Don't forget that. I get paid a lot of money to be on call.

Re:At least someone appreciates work-life balance

[kimvette]

He jacks off while watching porn on his smartphone of course. Stupid question. Sheesh!!

Re:At least someone appreciates work-life balance

[kimvette]

But where would pointy heads fit in the two hours of pointless disorganized required attendance meetings per day? Engineers will then be down to about 3.5 hours (you cannot include required break time) to get actual work done. ;)

Re:At least someone appreciates work-life balance

[Anonymous Coward]

If I'm willing to carry a mobile device outside of business hours, what bureaucrat's business is it to tell me I can't?

Exactly! If you choose to accept the responsibility of the job, extending to after-hours work, then you should have the right to do so unmolested. However, a business should not *require* this of anyone who is not willing to do it. If the job will need 24/7 support, then the business should be up front about that when hiring for the position.

The fundamental problem is that it's another Race to the Bottom. Once Company A demands workers do work above and beyond what fits in a workday, then Company B will feel pressed to to likewise to maintain competitiveness. Followed by Company C, and so forth until it becomes the new normal.

Once upon a time in the USA many localities had laws that forbade businesses to be open on Sundays. That went by the board because it's not just companies that compete - the work-on-Sunday towns touted their lack of restriction when wooing new business just like the South still does with regard to labor unions and right-to-work.

Re:At least someone appreciates work-life balance

[ColdWetDog]

I told you not to answer that.

Re:At least someone appreciates work-life balance

[BasilBrush]

If I'm willing to carry a mobile device outside of business hours, what bureaucrat's business is it to tell me I can't?

Because it's a race to the bottom. Because people like you will do it, over time it becomes expected of everybody, and all jobs. And then the advantage you have of being first to submit disappears anyway.

One of the things that government has a part in is standards. And a branch of standards is working standards that stop employees from being exploited by employers.

Re:At least someone appreciates work-life balance

[jedidiah]

Your lack of planning is not my emergency.

If you can't manage the boundaries imposed by normal office hours then you have failed to adequately manage your people and resources.

Most after hours work is just unpaid overtime that companies can only get away with because they have managed to get certain classes of corporate serf declared exempt from labor standards.

Overtime is a management failure.

Re:At least someone appreciates work-life balance

[RoknrolZombie]

Especially if you're salary, since by definition that's a non-hourly job.

I imagine, whether in France or not, that the person willing to work outside of business hours will be the one to get/keep the job, because that's pretty much how employment works.

Re:At least someone appreciates work-life balance

[Grishnakh]

Once upon a time in the USA many localities had laws that forbade businesses to be open on Sundays. That went by the board because it's not just companies that compete

No, it didn't. Bergen County, New Jersey still has these laws, and it's one of the wealthiest counties in the country.

Re:At least someone appreciates work-life balance

[RoknrolZombie]

I don't disagree with the idea - I haven't done any testing or anything, but to me it seems like that might be a bit backwards.

Little startups are competing with major players - in almost all of the tech fields that seems to be the case. If they aren't "competing", they are working with much larger companies...companies that can afford to pay a team of monkeys to do 24/7 service. The smaller companies have to be able to compete (or at least pretend they're as "professional" (because for some reason 24/7 ops makes you more professional? Meh)). This requires the same kind of "dedication", with far less staff.

I remember working for a company where I was managing the Help Desk (around 70 users, worldwide), right around 20 servers, and our Asterisk system. When the CEO asked me why I "can't get the phone system to work the way that Intel does", I let her know in no uncertain terms that Intel hires Helpdesk people to manage the Help Desk and phone people to manage the phones, and that they probably aren't both the same person. Additionally, they aren't the same person 24/7/365.

I feel quite blest to have finally found a job that isn't overwhelming, pays a reasonable wage, and actually respects the skills that I have rather than assuming that because *they* don't understand something, I must not know what I'm talking about. (yeah, I know, I do talk out of my ass sometimes, but not usually when it comes to tech :p )

Re:At least someone appreciates work-life balance

[Anonymous Coward]

Work smart phone? I work for local government... I have to supply my own.

Re:At least someone appreciates work-life balance

[freeze128]

What's *REALLY* American is to read work-related emails after work hours ONLY as long as you are COMPENSATED for it. Nobody said we have to work for free!

Re:At least someone appreciates work-life balance

[Anonymous Coward]

Isn't that going to happen anyway?

Listen, if my company isn't paying attention to when I answer emails (why would they?) and I want to keep my job, I'm going to do everything I can to keep it. I'm not going to ignore my bosses 7pm email when they can't VPN in and manage some major event that's taking place because all that will do is piss them off when I don't reply. They'll soon enough be looking for a replacement tech that's a little more flexible. It's the nature of the JOB to be flexible. Hell, aside from RTFM that's pretty much our only selling point.

Re:At least someone appreciates work-life balance

[Anonymous Coward]

It may well happen anyway. That doesn't mean it's a good thing, and doesn't mean attempts shouldn't be made to prevent it.

Re:At least someone appreciates work-life balance

[Anonymous Coward]

I read it through Chapter 6. I had a hard time not laughing at how supremely naive and shallow it was... like you had to turn off your critical thinking skills in order to accept the premise of the story and the Australia Project.

Re:At least someone appreciates work-life balance

[K. S. Kyosuke]

Especially if you're salary, since by definition that's a non-hourly job.

We're talking about France here, not about the US.

Re:At least someone appreciates work-life balance

[BasilBrush]

Helping coworkers and expecting a quid pro quo?

What are you helping them with? Childcare at the weekend? Laying a patio? Loaning them a mower? No problems.

But if it's a work matter, you are NOT helping a coworker. You are working, and so is he/she.

And money. Lots of money. Don't forget that. I get paid a lot of money to be on call.

If you are genuinely paid for your on call hours, then no problem. This is about emails outside of paid work hours.

Re:At least someone appreciates work-life balance

[Anonymous Coward]

Your company sounds like a fairly nice place to work, at some companies doing that is grounds for dismissal, Facebook and Amazon goes in French offices also, they have a certainly philosophy there that personal time belongs to the employee and now it's backed up by law. It's very refreshing idea compared to some of the US companies. I recently read where many Americans are afraid to take all of their allotted vacation because of what their boss might think of them or that it shows that they don't really care for their job and may be replaced if they take it all. In France and many places in Europe vacation time starts at 4-5 weeks per year for a new hire and grows to sometimes 3-4 months/year later in life. They really do have the right idea concerning employees. A little of that needs to rub off on the American employers.

Re:At least someone appreciates work-life balance

[ultranova]

or gossip with their coworkers at the coffee pot/water cooler outside of designated break times.

Fair enough. And in turn the employer can't expect the employees to take into account anything that hasn't been formally explained to them through official channels, having banned unofficial ones. I suspect the end result would be an utter disaster, but then again, bean-counting usually is.

Re:At least someone appreciates work-life balance

[therealkevinkretz]

While at this particular moment it's a buyer's market as far as labor is concerned (in the US), off-hours responsibility is hardly a "race to the bottom" and, as I pointed out, many jobs don't require it.

Are you in your 20s? To call being available by phone "exploitation" is pathetic.

Re:At least someone appreciates work-life balance

[Anonymous Coward]

What's *REALLY* American is to read work-related emails after work hours ONLY as long as you are COMPENSATED for it. Nobody said we have to work for free!

Everyone is compensated for it, even if the compensation is as small as "You get to keep your job."

Re:At least someone appreciates work-life balance

[rnturn]

Exactly. My equipment, my use rules. If someone from work wants to call me on my smartphone, fine. Let's face it, there are times when we might need to be reached after hours. But I'm not going to use it as an extension of the company's infrastructure. If the company wants to invest in a dedicated smartphone that is tied to their infrastructure, that's fine, too. But we're going to be negotiating about comp time.

Re:At least someone appreciates work-life balance

[johnlcallaway]

In my job in the US, I get paid a set amount to do my job regardless of how many hours I work. I don't get paid by the hour. If I get a call from my work at 2am, I answer it. If I don't, they can fire me and hire someone who will. If I don't like the number of times I'm getting woken up at 2am, I'll find another job.

When I take a new job, I ask what amount of 'off-the-clock' work is expected and negotiate a salary based on that. Asking me to check emails and take calls after work isn't taking advantage of me since I negotiated my rate of pay based on it.

It is none of the government's business what the company I choose to work for and I negotiate for payment for my services rendered. If they want to set rules about taking taxes out and making sure I get paid on a regular basis and other rules regarding discrimination, that's fine. If they want to set rules to make sure people get paid for their work when they are hourly, that's fine.

But stay out of telling me what I am willing to work for and what I'm not willing to work for. I feel sympathy for those that don't have skills in demand that have to take tough jobs, like I had to do my 20s and 30s. Since then, I've improved my skills and expect to be able to reap the reward from doing so.

So now companies in France will have to hire more people to provide after-hours support, meaning their costs will go up, and their products will become more expensive. So fewer and fewer people will buy them.

But that's OK with me, I don't know if much I own now that is marked 'Fabriqué en France'.

Re:At least someone appreciates work-life balance

[BasilBrush]

While at this particular moment it's a buyer's market as far as labor is concerned (in the US), off-hours responsibility is hardly a "race to the bottom" and, as I pointed out, many jobs don't require it.

Very few jobs require it. But many employers expect it.

Are you in your 20s? To call being available by phone "exploitation" is pathetic.

No, I'm in my late 40s. In my 20s, I'd have accepted it. I'm wiser now. A person is employed for a set number of hours per day. If an employer wants more hours then they need to pay overtime or on-call money for those extra hours. Anything else is indeed exploitation.

Re:At least someone appreciates work-life balance

[AmiMoJo]

Fairly compensated. My personal time outside of work gets billed at £1000/hour if people want it. When I get requests like "I accidentally sent you an email, please delete all copies" or "we think an IP address your connection as assigned may have been involved in copyright infringement, please investigate" that's what I tell people.

Re:At least someone appreciates work-life balance

[gsslay]

You're "compensated" by keeping your sorry ass in a job.

See me in my office first thing tomorrow, Freeze. Security are boxing up your belongings and will escort you from the building. This is the last time you ignore my 1 a.m. emails.

Re:At least someone appreciates work-life balance

[ShanghaiBill]

Countries like Sweden have fantastic workers rights, high taxes and yet still an unemployment rate little different from the USA.

Sweden is one data point. Greece also has strong worker rights and high taxes. It is hardly an automatic recipe for prosperity.

Re:At least someone appreciates work-life balance

[Belial6]

France has apprently decided that businesses have undue power over the employees and felt they needed to protect the employees. We already have precidence with that here in the US. Even if you choose to sleep with your boss to get a job, it is still violates the law.

Re:At least someone appreciates work-life balance

[BasilBrush]

But you were presenting it as an automatic recipe for unemployment. Which is falsified by a contrary example.

And of course I can find you more examples if you feel like claiming a one off.

Re:At least someone appreciates work-life balance

[Ozymandias_KoK]

All problems are management problems.

Re:At least someone appreciates work-life balance

[Belial6]

I am consistantly shocked by the number of people that don't know salary is not hourly. I have several friends who accept their employer docking them pay when they leave work early, but get no extra pay when they work late because they are "salary".

Re:At least someone appreciates work-life balance

[Anonymous Coward]

WOW! I haven't thought of that song on thirty or so years. . . and I find that I still remember most of the words. Thanks.

Re:At least someone appreciates work-life balance

[Belial6]

Yep, Human Shield should be put on many a person's job requirement.

Re:At least someone appreciates work-life balance

[Darinbob]

I ignore work when I'm at home. I may see some email from work but I ignore it. It is my time and nothing gets me doing office work when I'm at home or on the weekends unless it is a major emergency, and even then I will take make up time later (if I work on saturday then I take monday off).

The problem is that some people don't see this. They feel compelled to work work work. Had an discussion with a coworker who complained that his wife didn't understand the silicon valley expectation that everyone must work until late at night; he expected me to disagree but I said it was bullshit and agreed with his wife. He felt that if working an 8 hour day that his pay would plummet. This is not actually the silicon valley expectation, though it's true that some companies feel this way but it is not at all universal, and I don't think it's even a majority view. I think his problem is that he's spend almost all of his career in a startup type of company so he doesn't see that this is an atypical type of company, even in silicon valley.

Re:At least someone appreciates work-life balance

[Anonymous Coward]

If I'm willing to carry a mobile device outside of business hours, what bureaucrat's business is it to tell me I can't?

The sad reality is that it's probably impossible to give those who do not want to handle work-related messages outside work the option not to do so without taking the option to actually do it away from you. Any law stating that employees should get to choose can in practice be worked around by companies that force their employees to "choose" like you do. Unless you want to involve even more bureaucracy that would really, really be hated by employees and businesses alike - that is, a shitload of laws would be needed to prevent firing employees for not having made that particular choice. Laws that would enable incompetent employees to keep their jobs much longer.

I know from dating a nurse (not in the US so I don't know if the American system would be the same) that many nurses who "were on stand-by" actually had an additional private phone # not given to coworkers in addition to their regular phone so that they could deny having heard the call when extra staff was suddenly needed. The ones who had a better work ethic were the ones that suffered since they were the ones who did answer (we once had to cancel our weekend plans 20 mins. before leaving, I was more angry than she was since she was used to it). I suspect that without a law like this, loyal employees that, however, want to draw a clear line between their private lives and work won't have that choice.

Re:At least someone appreciates work-life balance

[mrchaotica]

Is it sad that I know it well enough to reference it on Slashdot, but was not yet born the last time you thought about it? Maybe I need to acquire a more modern taste in music...

Re:At least someone appreciates work-life balance

[therealkevinkretz]

You can be compensated for a job's requirements without it being as specific as overtime or per-hour. It's one thing if it's sprung on you after you've agreed to a salary,benefits, etc. It's silly to tell me I can't agree to it right off the bat.

Re:At least someone appreciates work-life balance

[litehacksaur111]

Their definition of unemployment and the the formula for calculation is different than the US. If the US followed the same formula our unemployment would be about the same.

Re:At least someone appreciates work-life balance

[jmcvetta]

Have you considered an exciting and lucrative career working for the mob?

Re:At least someone appreciates work-life balance

[Ravaldy]

Nailed it.

Regardless of job requirements. If you don't go the extra mile and the guy beside you does, you'll simply be left behind. I wave back at a lot of people who used to say "They can have me on my time if they pay me triple time". Guess what? I progressed while they didn't. I now have more schedule flexibility, more vacation, more pay and more growth opportunity.

Re:At least someone appreciates work-life balance

[onepoint]

well I lived in NJ ( still love NJ )
and yes bergen county has the blue sky and some towns don't sell alcohol on sunday too.
also Bergen County has Aaa rating for bonds which is real good if not great ( Alpine has AAA if I recall correctly )
they found a way to make it work

as for wealth it ranks in the 30's consistently nation wide which is not bad for population of about 900000 people

Re:At least someone appreciates work-life balance

[Zontar The Mindless]

This is why I will never accept an employer-supplied smartphone.

And you can bet your sweet ass that my work email is not now and not ever going to be found on mine.

Re:At least someone appreciates work-life balance

[Zontar The Mindless]

That sounds suspiciously to me like, "Rich people don't have to work on Sundays".

Re:At least someone appreciates work-life balance

[Anonymous Coward]

Maybe we don't use the same way of counting unemployed people... in usa, non-compensated and non-registered ones are not included in statistics. Hard to think with different measuring methods wich measure different methods of compensation. C'mon bash ! And sorry if I mess up your language. Feel free to correct me.

I do not judge the actuality of the data in items below. This is just to say that we have to interpret such figures with caution :
http://www.agoravox.fr/actualites/international/article/les-vrais-chiffres-du-chomage-aux-130044
http://useconomy.about.com/od/suppl1/f/real_unemployment_rate.htm
http://www.wnd.com/2014/03/economist-real-unemployment-rate-is-11/

Re:At least someone appreciates work-life balance

[DeputySpade]

Personally, I appreciate the _opportunity_ to work outside of (in addition to) normal business hours. It allows me to take on more projects, and more important ones, work across time zones, and generally kick more ass than I would otherwise be able. There are plenty of "8-and-skate" employees at my company and in my role, but I don't _WANT_ to be one of them. I will determine my own ideal work/life balance and I will adjust it as I see fit. I am grateful that I don't have some beurocrat clown trying to tell me otherwise.

I don't think I'm in any more or less danger of losing my job than anyone else in my department generally speaking. If things go significantly sideways, I may be positioned slightly better than some others, but then again politics and nepotism play plenty enough role that "working extra" might not have anything to do with it. I can tell you this, though. I get more bonus money than most of the others in my department and I'm more likely to move in to management than any of them as well. I believe that because it's exactly what happened in my last job where I worked the same way and did make those advances.

The govenerment can try to enforce equality, but the only way it can is by preventing those who want to do more from doing so. It can only make people equal by enforcing the lowest common denominator. I'd rather we had equal _oportunity_ and then let us apply ourselves to whatever degree we see fit. The outcome will sort itself out accordingly. It's called freedom and I believe it works.

Re:At least someone appreciates work-life balance

[khallow]

If I'm off the clock, I should be able to completely ignore work and everything work-related. I should be able to leave my work smartphone in the office.

That's fine. And there certain jobs you shouldn't be hired for as a result. Employment is not one way. The employer or employee shouldn't be the only party that is able to make demands of the other.

But too often, what I see with this sort of talk is that the speaker wants the pay of a high paying job without the demands of a high paying job. I too want money without work from an employer, but I'm realistic enough to know that won't happen.

Re:At least someone appreciates work-life balance

[Rakarra]

Sweden is one data point. Greece also has strong worker rights and high taxes. It is hardly an automatic recipe for prosperity.

Greece also has an amazingly high amount of tax evasion. In the mid-2000s, half of Greeks did not pay the taxes owed. It is so ingrained in Greek culture that efforts to crack down on tax evasion have had muddling results.

Then there's a little problem of bribery and corruption, similarly institutionalized in the culture.

Re:At least someone appreciates work-life balance

[litehacksaur111]

I can't tell if you are being serious or sarcastic because more than 60% of the managers in the US think exactly like that.

Re:At least someone appreciates work-life balance

[khallow]

See me in my office first thing tomorrow, Freeze. Security are boxing up your belongings and will escort you from the building. This is the last time you ignore my 1 a.m. emails.

Then get another job. You don't have to be a coward all your life.

Re:At least someone appreciates work-life balance

[SeaFox]

Yeah, I'll just apply to the company that doesn't treat employees like this.

Oh wait, they all do... because their shareholder/owners are always trying to squeeze as much productivity as possible from people, to maximize profits and maintain Endless Growth.

Re:At least someone appreciates work-life balance

[thegarbz]

You are assuming what comes through gossip is as correct and complete as what subsequently comes through official channel. The vast majority of the time you should be ignoring it, and even if you don't it will need to be re-explained anyway.

Re:At least someone appreciates work-life balance

[thegarbz]

Spoken like someone who's never managed a critical 24h operation. Yes in an ideal world we'd be swimming in enough money to have 3 rotating 8 hour shifts for all staff. But we don't.

Re:At least someone appreciates work-life balance

[khallow]

Yeah, I'll just apply to the company that doesn't treat employees like this.

There you go.

Oh wait, they all do... because their shareholder/owners are always trying to squeeze as much productivity as possible from people, to maximize profits and maintain Endless Growth.

So what? I'm tired of the pathetic victimhood you display. Just because your interests and those of your employer don't magically perfectly align, doesn't mean that you can't get a good deal. But you have to try first rather than whine on teh internets about how helpless you are.

Re:At least someone appreciates work-life balance

[Midnight_Falcon]

That's because most of the rich people in Bergen County, New Jersey, actually work in New York City. Thus, their jobs are not subject to these restrictions. It's just their suburban home that doesn't have business open Sundays.

Re:At least someone appreciates work-life balance

[Grishnakh]

Yep. Not only that, but the surrounding counties don't have these restrictions either, so it's not hard for them to drive a little bit to get to businesses or a mall that's open on Sunday.

What I don't understand, however, is why any businesses actually bother to locate there, especially the mall that's in that county. If I were running Macy's or Nordstrom or whatever, why would I bother locating a big, expensive store in a place where I'm not allowed to have it open on Sundays, one of the bigger shopping days? Are the Bergen county residents really buying enough stuff on the other days to make it worth it? Yeah, they have a bunch of money there, but as you said, they work in NYC, so that probably doesn't exactly leave them a lot of time to go shopping on weekdays when you factor in their work schedule plus the commuting time.

Re:At least someone appreciates work-life balance

[Anonymous Coward]

Greece's economy survived until the US took down the entire world. Blaming Greece is just scapegoating, which too many people buy into. Want more data points?, how about Germany, Switzerland, Norway, or the Netherlands?

Re:At least someone appreciates work-life balance

[Anonymous Coward]

I am truly amazed and have a whole new image of the French as not quite as assbackward and inbred as previously thought.
Now, if they would just quit speaking French.

Re:At least someone appreciates work-life balance

[TapeCutter]

In my 20s, I'd have accepted it. I'm wiser now.

Exactly, it's one of the reasons why soldiers have been predominately 16-25yo males since the dawn of time, they are much easier to indoctrinate.

Re:At least someone appreciates work-life balance

[flyneye]

What's *REALLY* American is to read other peoples emails after work hours ONLY as long as you are COMPENSATED for it.
Extra points if it is for a 3 letter agency. 10 point bonus for finding amateur office pr0n.

Re:At least someone appreciates work-life balance

[TapeCutter]

It's silly to tell me I can't agree to it right off the bat.

From a "big picture" POV, there are two schools of thought, the first says if you reduce everyone's hours there will be more jobs, the other says it will just shrink the economy, both schools of thought have valid points. I suspect the answer is somewhere in-between the two schools, neither is a clear "winner" because we are dealing with a very complex system called the economy.

Re:At least someone appreciates work-life balance

[Anonymous Coward]

Sweden is tiny and has little immigration (surprisingly enough). France's unemployment figures are in the same order as their immigrant population (former African colonies, predominantly). Additionally Swedish unions are more cooperative. As a small country, the idea that companies could move abroad is an understood risk. Heck, even Ikea is now a Dutch company. French unions still have problems in accepting that there's a world outside France.

Re:At least someone appreciates work-life balance

[Tigris666]

Compensating for reading work emails at home is fair. It's no different to taking a work call at home.

Having said that, what about giving the company a rebate when you aren't working at work? I mean if we are talking about being compensated for every single minute of work you do while not at work? Who hasn't taken a personal call while at work, or checked / replied to a personal email?

Re:At least someone appreciates work-life balance

[mjwx]

If I'm willing to carry a mobile device outside of business hours, what bureaucrat's business is it to tell me I can't?

Exactly! If you choose to accept the responsibility of the job, extending to after-hours work, then you should have the right to do so unmolested. However, a business should not *require* this of anyone who is not willing to do it. If the job will need 24/7 support, then the business should be up front about that when hiring for the position.

The fundamental problem is that it's another Race to the Bottom. Once Company A demands workers do work above and beyond what fits in a workday, then Company B will feel pressed to to likewise to maintain competitiveness. Followed by Company C, and so forth until it becomes the new normal.

Once upon a time in the USA many localities had laws that forbade businesses to be open on Sundays. That went by the board because it's not just companies that compete - the work-on-Sunday towns touted their lack of restriction when wooing new business just like the South still does with regard to labor unions and right-to-work.

Those are two completely different scenarios.

The first is about employers screwing over employees.
The second is about regulation external to employers and employees.

I live in a city that did not permit Sunday trading until last year. 20-fucking-13 and we're not some backwater town in Bumfuck, Louisiana, this is a state capital and one of the largest cities in Australia. You have no idea how shit it is not to be able to go to the shop on a Sunday, out of bread, well fuck you because the politicians say a baker or supermarket is not allowed to open on a Sunday. Deregulated trading hours is overwhelmingly a good thing. Now stores aren't forced to open on a Sunday but they used to be forced to close on a Sunday. Now this is fixed.

That being said, I committed ./ heresy and read the article. This isn't a law in France that applies to all companies in France, it's an agreement between an employers federation and a workers union that employees must ignore work emails (this doesn't mean the boss cant send them) after 6PM. It is legally binding but only to the signatories of the pact.

Re:At least someone appreciates work-life balance

[AK Marc]

That's somewhere between a prisoner's dilemma and a tragedy of the commons. If you'd demanded triple pay, same as everyone else, you'd be where you are now, and you'd have gotten paid more getting there. But when one person "scabs" then they ruin it for everyone

Re:At least someone appreciates work-life balance

[AK Marc]

Slavery is illegal. If you are paid to be somewhere from 9 to 5, and you get no more pay for after hours work, the after hours work is slavery, demanded under threat of harm (loss of job). In some places, salary means set hours, and overtime is not allowed, as it is uncompensated. But compensated overtime is allowed, often with restrictions.

Re:At least someone appreciates work-life balance

[Stuarticus]

Are you in your 20s? To call being available by phone "exploitation" is pathetic.

Then obviously you've never been an situation where you were exploited in that situation. It certainly can be a gross intrusion onthe rest of your life to be expected to be on call 24/7 for no additional recompense. If you don't believe me give post your phone number here and offer free tech support.

Re:At least someone appreciates work-life balance

[Anonymous Coward]

That's why you have labor laws really...

Re:At least someone appreciates work-life balance

[Anonymous Coward]

How is that not a management problem? Allocation of resources is a pretty fundamental management issue.

Re:At least someone appreciates work-life balance

[Anonymous Coward]

greece had (past tense) strong worker rights, not any more

and before you go crowing with the single exception of Norway (oil money) every single western government is just as financially irresponsible as Greece was, there's only one difference: big capital hasn't yet declined new loans to the government.

Greece was a warning to the rest of the western governements: do what we (we being Big Money) tell you, or else...

Re:At least someone appreciates work-life balance

[Anonymous Coward]

Just because your interests and those of your employer don't magically perfectly align, doesn't mean that you can't get a good deal. But you have to try first rather than whine on teh internets about how helpless you are.

That would be un-American. In the same way people protest on their soap box before proceeding to ballot, jury, or ammo box when it comes to govenrment, people whine about their private problems before taking action.

Whining accomplishes a very useful function of letting people know you have a problem. Free markets thrive on participants being informed, and whining is a very easy and common way to do it. Once people know you have a problem, they can help you.

Charitable folks who know a solution you are unaware of may tell you about it
Entrepreneurial folks who know a solution doesn't exist, but could be created, may go and create it, hoping a profit could be made.
People who share your problem may have other thoughts to contribute, and through the exchange of ideas a solution may be developed

Whining, in the end, is speech. The US Founding Fathers may not have foresaw teh internets, but I'm sure they foresaw people whining and displaying victimhood. I'm glad they took measures to protect their whining over protecting you from feeling tired of them, for it is that same protection that allowed you to tell us how tired you feel.

Re:At least someone appreciates work-life balance

[khallow]

Whining, in the end, is speech.

The problem is that this sort of whining is not about communication. The whiner rarely whines about new problems but rather about old, already solved problems. And they usually already know the answers too.

Instead it's mostly a psychological coping mechanism for dealing with stuff that they chose to take on (or believe) and will go through with no matter what anyone else says or does.

OTOH, I am here to communicate and am not hesitant to remind others what Slashdot is for.

Re:At least someone appreciates work-life balance

[Anonymous Coward]

Or posted to Slashdot...

Re:At least someone appreciates work-life balance

[david_thornley]

While I've heard of these "We own your nuts 24/7" companies, I've never actually worked at one. Except for that testing gig as a contractor, I've never regularly worked more than 40 hours/week, and that was hourly pay (I'm much happier working long hours when the meter's running). Am I just really lucky? Are the businesses around here atypical? Is this not really as big a problem as some people think?

Re:At least someone appreciates work-life balance

[david_thornley]

Okay, so we have an entitlement complex going on here. Somebody wants to be able to run a critical 24/7 operation on the cheap, and is willing to make unreasonable and possibly health-degrading demands on others.

Sometimes the entitlement culture in US business really annoys me.

Re:At least someone appreciates work-life balance

[Ravaldy]

I take it you work in support.

Re:At least someone appreciates work-life balance

[Ravaldy]

Also, that system is what makes capitalism so great. If you are willing to work harder you get more out of it. If you rather spend time with your family, that is it's own reward. At the end of the day you can't crap on the other guy for choosing to do more for a company he loves working for or simply because he wants a big screen TV.

Re:At least someone appreciates work-life balance

[Anonymous Coward]

The problem is that this sort of whining is not about communication.

Free speech is not limited to communication.

And to be pedantic, I said it's about *informing* people. Communication implies there is an intended target with an intended message. Informing can be that, but is not limited to that. Think meta-data. When you call your buddy you're communicating with him, but you're also generating meta-data, which is information that can be collected, and it could be useful to someone at some future point in time (which is why I am against its collection in principle)

The whiner rarely whines about new problems but rather about old, already solved problems. And they usually already know the answers too.

Free speech is not limited to whether it's new or old problems, or that the speaker already knows the answer.

Instead it's mostly a psychological coping mechanism

Sure, that's another useful function for whining. That's not mutually exclusive with what I was talking about.

OTOH, I am here to communicate and am not hesitant to remind others what Slashdot is for.

And in the eyes of the Constitution, your speech is as good as theirs. Again, I'm glad that it is so.

Re:At least someone appreciates work-life balance

[daem0n1x]

Yeah, France desperately needs people working 14 hour days. That will end unemployment pretty soon.

Re:At least someone appreciates work-life balance

[daem0n1x]

Every time the US looks bad compared to some other country in any indicator, the same excuse comes up. Care to back your claims, please?

Re:At least someone appreciates work-life balance

[AK Marc]

At the end of the day you can't crap on the other guy for choosing to do more for a company he loves working for or simply because he wants a big screen TV.

But you can. When the other guy will work for $0.50 per day, you will get your pay cut. He gets what he wants, and you lose.

Re:At least someone appreciates work-life balance

[litehacksaur111]

Please read this paper http://www.bls.gov/opub/mlr/20...

Re:At least someone appreciates work-life balance

[khallow]

And in the eyes of the Constitution, your speech is as good as theirs. Again, I'm glad that it is so.

The Constitution doesn't constrain my opinions nor anyone else's, making it quite irrelevant to the discussion. And as for my opinions on the present subject, I've given adequate reason for them.

It's something like claiming that certain unsafe actions are just the same in the eye of the law as the same action taken with precaution, hence they are equivalent. The problem is that those actions have different consequences no matter what the law. Whining without fixing a problem is just as legal as fixing the problem without whining. But they have different outcomes.

Re:At least someone appreciates work-life balance

[Ravaldy]

Are we talking about management / office work? If so, what do you do? I can tell you that not going the extra mile means I cannot get the job I have. End of story. While I'm at home the world continues to spin and not being available can mean a supervisor having to send people home because they couldn't overcome a hurdle I could have helped them overcome. I think that's far more hurtful for peoples income than someone committing to their job. The flexibility required for some jobs extends beyond the 40 hours / week expected in many jobs. There's responsibility and that's where extra income comes. I'm not stealing some other bozo's job, The extra income is not just a measure of your ability to do the job but is also compensation for possibly being disturbed during personal time.

Re:At least someone appreciates work-life balance

[BasilBrush]

If it's not specific (i.e. specified in your contract or offer letter), then it *IS* sprung on you after you've agreed salary benefits.

If it's not in that contract, and yet it is expected, then it *IS* the employer cheating the employee. Regardless of whether the employee is willing to bend over and take it.

Re:At least someone appreciates work-life balance

[BasilBrush]

I get more bonus money than most of the others in my department and I'm more likely to move in to management than any of them as well. I believe that because it's exactly what happened in my last job where I worked the same way and did make those advances.

So in your last job you moved into management. But now you're not in management. Much good that did you then.

Yes, if you pick that cotton in your own time, the new owner might just make you into a house nigger. Then again he might not.

Re:At least someone appreciates work-life balance

[AK Marc]

"going the extra mile" doesn't have to mean illegal slavery (as defined some places, obviously not where you are). That you'll sell your soul for a dollar doesn't mean we all should. If nobody sold out like you, someone would still have the job you think you had to sell out to get.

Re:At least someone appreciates work-life balance

[thegarbz]

Quite the opposite actually.

Do you staff an operation 24 hours to have people sit on their arses doing nothing? Or do you staff during the day and provide on-call support for rare occasions when something goes wrong?

The former will land you a one way ticket to bankruptcy in the face of competition who can make sensible staffing decisions. Your complaints about running things on the cheap is really falling flat when I see almost weekly instances in the news paper of more job losses, and more companies shutting down and moving production elsewhere.

Re:At least someone appreciates work-life balance

[therealkevinkretz]

When I've had a job where I've felt that either wasn't what it was promised, or in which I wasn't being compensated for what I was worth, I left and found another job.

That's what you do when a transaction or arrangement is not (or no longer) acceptable to you.

Re:At least someone appreciates work-life balance

[therealkevinkretz]

No, it's not a "valid point" to simply claim reduced hours = more jobs. Reduced hours with reduced pay = more jobs at lower pay. Reduced hours at same pay = shift burden and expense to employer, who will adjust and scale back work.

Re:At least someone appreciates work-life balance

[RockDoctor]

i agree. unfortunately, that's "un-American".

Why is it unfortunate that an article about French employment practices should be un-American.

Oh wait - do you actually, like, live in that hell hole? Stop reading the internet and get back into the cotton fields!

Re:At least someone appreciates work-life balance

[david_thornley]

If it's a critical enough 24/7 operation, yes, you do have people sitting on their asses or doing less important work 24/7. You can also make sure you pay people for being on-call.

And, yes, businesses feel entitled enough to ruin their employees' lives that they will make threats and relocate to be able to continue doing so.

Re:At least someone appreciates work-life balance

[thegarbz]

Wow we went from handling a call-out to ruining an employee's life.

I'm not sure what you have going on in your head, but it doesn't have any resemblance to reality.

Re:At least someone appreciates work-life balance

[gsslay]

It was sarcasm at what is "*REALLY* American". American labour laws are like medieval serfdom compared to Europe's.

Re:At least someone appreciates work-life balance

[nhat11]

If there's a lot of people depending on you Anon, you'll feel differently about ignoring them especially if you work with them on a regular basis. That type of talk shows your inexperience in a team environment.

Re:At least someone appreciates work-life balance

[Ravaldy]

It's part of the salary. They pay me $xxxxxx.xx and that includes having to be disturbed during personal time. I could be making 20k less a year and be paid when I get disturbed. Honestly, I'll take the fixed salary because I can predict my annual income. The companies I've worked for also have bonuses to help compensate those who go the extra mile.

Re:At least someone appreciates work-life balance

[therealkevinkretz]

So if it's part of the original deal, it's okay, right? This law would ... make that illegal.

Re:At least someone appreciates work-life balance

[BasilBrush]

You didn't RTFA. It's not a law, it's a labour agreement with unions. Unions that represent 1 million members in France, but this agreement only covers 250,000 of them in specific kinds of jobs that are already covered by mandatory rest periods.

It does say it's a "legally binding" agreement. But that doesn't make it a law. It just makes it a contract.

So no, it wouldn't make it illegal. And indeed it only covers those that need rest periods, such as drivers.

Having pointed out the incorrectness of your post. I'll say that my point is not bound by what the French do anyway. I'm talking about what is civilised. What is not exploitation. Which is not necessarily the same as the law in any particular country.

What the French call la dolce vita?

[Anonymous Coward]

Isn't that Italian?

Re:What the French call la dolce vita?

[Anonymous Coward]

Wish I had mod points.. Mod parent up he is right!

Re:What the French call la dolce vita?

[alphatel]

Isn't that Italian?

It's even better than you think. La Dolce Vita is a Federico Fellini film and not necessarily an Italian expression, let alone French. Even the link provided points to the Wikipedia entry for the film.

Re:What the French call la dolce vita?

[Joce640k]

Yeah.... 'cos nobody uses expressions in a foreign language.

Re:What the French call la dolce vita?

[kruach aum]

The original said "whatEVER the French call la dolce vita", implying that the writer of that sentence is aware that French and Italian are two different languages.

Re:What the French call la dolce vita?

[alta]

without googling, isn't that "The Sweet Life" or something like that?

I don't know any french or Italian, but it's close enough to Spanish.

Re:What the French call la dolce vita?

[Eunuchswear]

Yup, that's why Mangan writes:

whatever the French call la dolce vita

She's making a joke about her poor French skills.

Which possibly explain her total misunderstanding of a deal made between the unions and representatives of management (not a law), which is that bosses aren't allowed to hold workers refusal to handle work related mail outside of working hours against them.

There is nothing preventing someone from replying to the boss at 23:59, but if they don't the boss can't bitch.

Re:What the French call la dolce vita?

[Anonymous Coward]

I may be falling for something, but I'm going to assume you're serious.
It was a lame attempt at a joke in TFS.

Re:What the French call la dolce vita?

[Anonymous Coward]

Oh well. C'est la vie.

Re:What the French call la dolce vita?

[the eric conspiracy]

The French do tend towards language chauvinism.

Re:What the French call la dolce vita?

[Anonymous Coward]

I'm Italian. "La dolce vita" is an Italian phrase composed by Italian words and with a meaning of it's own in Italian language. Fellini's movie title is connected to that meaning (it's not easy to understand exactly what the movie means though). Anyway the movie is famous all around the world, so I wouldn't be surprised to find out that phrase has become a catch phrase in other countries too.

Re:What the French call la dolce vita?

[TitusGroan8856]

yes, in french it would be "la douceur de vivre"

Re:What the French call la dolce vita?

[Austrian Anarchy]

without googling, isn't that "The Sweet Life" or something like that?

I don't know any french or Italian, but it's close enough to Spanish.

Was that a Felicity Kendal show?

Re:What the French call la dolce vita?

[MadKeithV]

The French do tend towards language chauvinism.

Pah, they don't even have a word for entrepreneur.

Re:What the French call la dolce vita?

[Liquid Len]

The French do tend towards language chauvinism.

No, sorry but that's simply not true. The French language nowadays includes a lot of foreign words. Of course we have the French Academy which tries to impose French words for everything but really, these (generally old) guys are representative of themselves only, and have nearly no relevance. For instance, they tried to impose "couriel" instead of "email" (and a whole bunch of other ridiculous words) but hey, who would have guessed, it never picked up ...
I believe French-speaking Canadians, OTOH, tend to be much more protective towards the original language.

Re:What the French call la dolce vita?

[rossdee]

"Was that a Felicity Kendal show?"

No, that was "The Good Life"

at least in English

I think they translated that as "Goode Neighbors" for American audiences
   

Re:What the French call la dolce vita?

[Anonymous Coward]

Believe? Every month tends to bring some minor delicious news item involving language police in Quebec.

Re:What the French call la dolce vita?

[cusco]

Well, the Quebecois are protective of **THEIR** version of the language, which is almost unintelligible to Parisians.

Re:What the French call la dolce vita?

[Russ1642]

Whoosh

Re:What the French call la dolce vita?

[Anonymous Coward]

Wooooooooosh

Re:What the French call la dolce vita?

[Anonymous Coward]

La Dolce Vita is a Federico Fellini film and not necessarily an Italian expression

"La dolce vita" is a 100% Italian expression. It means "the sweet life".

Re:What the French call la dolce vita?

[Anonymous Coward]

Do you have have a look at the etymology of entrepreneur ?

French are acustomed to make translation of their nouns ending in "eur" to the "or" English version (French directeur became director, honneur became honor, donneur => donor and so on).

I know very few words that ends with "eur" in English and so for a French it is even more striking that this is (or was) a French word.
So it makes your statement looks quite ironic.

Re:What the French call la dolce vita?

[Anonymous Coward]

Never heard that. The real expresion is "Joie de vivre".

Re:What the French call la dolce vita?

[K. S. Kyosuke]

Yes, but as the Americans say, adonde fueres haz lo que vieres.

Re:What the French call la dolce vita?

[3.5 stripes]

More specifically it was referring to the period in italian history after the second world war when Italy was flush with US cash for rebuilding (and to keep the commies from getting anywhere politically), employment was high, and the middle class exploded..

Re:What the French call la dolce vita?

[Anonymous Coward]

One can say "Se la couler douce." (To pour it (life) gently for yourself.)

Re:What the French call la dolce vita?

[Anonymous Coward]

Not really. The famous Fellini's movie is set in 1960. The marshall plan was already over at that time, and Italy hadn't even been one of the biggest beneficiaries: uk and france got far more money. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/...

And even if "commies" weren't ruling the country, the Italian economic system was highly government-run and social-democratic, with 80% of the largest companies being directly State-owned. And it actually worked. Basically Italy had the same growth rates as China has now, but with western working conditions.

Problems for Italy started as soon as they began following the "washington consensus" (privatizations, less government, etc...) in the late '80s. That's when La Dolce Vita ended.

Re:What the French call la dolce vita?

[Anonymous Coward]

>C'est la vie.
je ne parle pas italien

Re:What the French call la dolce vita?

[baud123]

or simply "rester peinard" ; "pour vivre heureux, restons couché !" (keep cool ; be happy, stay in bed !)

Re:What the French call la dolce vita?

[Darinbob]

Your lack of sangfroid gives me more schadenfreude.

Re:What the French call la dolce vita?

[geminidomino]

No, it's not. "Joie de vivre" (lit. "joy of life") is a personality trait which, while it would likely both inform and be informed by living "the sweet life", is distinct from it.

Re:What the French call la dolce vita?

[Austrian Anarchy]

"Was that a Felicity Kendal show?"

No, that was "The Good Life"

at least in English

I think they translated that as "Goode Neighbors" for American audiences

Maybe it did play in America, but I don't recall that. I remembered it from "The Young Ones."

Re:What the French call la dolce vita?

[the eric conspiracy]

Simply not true?

What about the Toubon Law?

Re:What the French call la dolce vita?

[Anonymous Coward]

What? Having lived the better portion of my life near the Francophone border in Europe, I have only _very_ rarely heard any Francophone person utter any words in a foreign language. Francophones somehow expect everyone on the planet to speak French, where-ever they go. Same thing with Anglophones really, but then the entire world _does_ speak English, so they have a point.

Re:What the French call la dolce vita?

[mjwx]

without googling, isn't that "The Sweet Life" or something like that?

I don't know any french or Italian, but it's close enough to Spanish.

Thats because French, Italian and Spanish have closer ties to the root language, Latin than English does.

English is really a mongrel language. English doesn't just borrow words from other languages, it chases them down alleys, beats them down and rifles through their pockets for new vocabulary.

Re:What the French call la dolce vita?

[MadKeithV]

My third language is actually french - my original post was repeating a joke, falsely attributed to G.W. Bush.

Re:What the French call la dolce vita?

[Anonymous Coward]

irony being difficult to detect in written text, let me just say that entrepreneur is a french word :-)

Re:What the French call la dolce vita?

[Anonymous Coward]

They also don't have a word for "Military Victory" either, but that's the French for you.

Wrong way to go about it...

[Anonymous Coward]

If you want to stop after hours emails, make it illegal for the boss to SEND the email in the first place.

Their is automatic evidence (timestamp) and it doesn't put an employee between the law and un-written work rules where the employee is damned either way.

Re:Wrong way to go about it...

[rioki]

Why should that be?! for example with flex time and all that it can very easy be that I will email someone who is already home with a "This is important, can you do this ASAP." I fully expect it to be done first thing in the morning the next working day, no more no less. Why should I not be able to do that?!?

On the other hand I also am sort of against all this private device / access company services outside of work thing. Why should someone access their work email outside of work? Outside of business hours I am not reachable, nor do I expect you to be, end of story. The only exception to that are people that are "on call", but they should get paid for that.

Re:Wrong way to go about it...

[Raumkraut]

So what do you do about colleagues in other time-zones? Or on other shifts? Are they not allowed to email you outside of the times you're both at work - assuming there is any overlap at all?

Email is not IM; it's not designed to require or expect an immediate response. Nothing about sending an email necessitates that it must be acted upon immediately.

Re:Wrong way to go about it...

[cusco]

My first half hour of every work day is wading through the emails left behind by the previous two shifts for anything I need to deal with. It's a 24x7x365 Security Operations Center, there's no way in hell the emails are going to stop coming.

I am on call, but the company pays for my phone (I wouldn't own a cell phone otherwise), and I get paid from the moment the phone rings until the issue is taken care of. After most of a decade on salary, I'm loving getting paid hourly.

Re:Wrong way to go about it...

[Anonymous Coward]

Why are all my emails tagged urgent then!

Re:Wrong way to go about it...

[sandytaru]

Probably because someone forgot they were supposed to have an answer to that email last week.

My mechanic has a great sign: "A mistake on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part." I really wanted to make that my email sig when I worked at a help desk.

Re:Wrong way to go about it...

[Belial6]

Getting paid from the time the phone rings to the time the issue is taken care of is not a good deal. If you are on call, you should be paid for being on call. I don't know that I would argue full wages, but certainly having a situation where your private time could be interrupted is providing a service that should be paid for.

Re:Wrong way to go about it...

[Anonymous Coward]

I'm never reachable outside of work hours unless there is some specific reason for me to be.
Don't like it? I'll walk out and you can find someone who can figure out how all the shit works.

Good

[guytoronto]

Tight labour laws are not something to be feared.

Re:Good

[Archangel Michael]

Yes, they are. Unrestrained legalism isn't the virtue that you think it is. It is the means of tyranny uses to creep into our world. But you're okay with tyranny, as long as it is your kind of tyranny, and that is a pity.

Re:Good

[cold fjord]

Unless you happen to be a patient in a hospital hoping your stay is within the 23 x 6 x 263 uptime of the life critical hospital IT systems.

Re:Good

[Anonymous Coward]

This, buisnessed that can't deal with them are buisnessed that wouldn't survive a crisis anyway, they're not flexible enough and all that.

Re:Good

[pr0fessor]

My boss already knows that I don't obsess over email during my off hours. If it's important enough to need my immediate attention like a major outage, they will call me. No law required a good employer wouldn't expect you to respond to email 24/7 anyway.

Re:Good

[Anonymous Coward]

Yeah, let's have absolutely no regulatin instead, we've seen how weel that works in the finance domain-Ho, wait....

Re:Good

[mwvdlee]

Indeed. Bring on the overworked doctor to cut me open!

Re:Good

[fustakrakich]

Tyranny by government, or tyranny by business, Take your pick..

Re:Good

[Linzer]

I work under tight labour laws, and if you insist on calling that tyranny, then yes, I am perfectly okay with at least this much tyranny.

Re:Good

[Anonymous Coward]

If only there was a provision for exceptional services, did you not even read the summary before going on your regulation is bad free market is god tirade, again.

Re:Good

[khallow]

Because those are the only two possible choices we could make here.

Re:Good

[Eunuchswear]

Yup, tyranny by negociation beteween workers and bosses representatives. Terrible.

The way much labour law in France goes, including this case, is the law says: work it out among yourselves, and providing it fits in with existing law that's the way we'll do it.

Re:Good

[khallow]

How about choice c), no tyranny? What did I win?

The solution here is a system of checks and balances, like most democracies have formally for the various parts of their government. That is already in place with the informal system of campaign donations and government regulation.

Re:Good

[Eunuchswear]

Zow, if you're sending an email to someone at home in bed because the hospital has lost power...

Let me explain the concept of "the night shift" and "on call" to you...

Re:Good

[Anonymous Coward]

I'll take the tyranny by business. A business gives me compensation for my work; Government takes from that compensation and gives it to someone else.

Re:Good

[Anonymous Coward]

Do you think you could explain those concepts to the French IT sites I've dealt with instead? I think it is unlikely to help, but I would have the satisfaction of envisioning the horror creep onto your face as the realization slowly dawned on you .....

Re:Good

[fustakrakich]

You can control both...

Re:Good

[cold fjord]

Overworked doctor or no doctor, take your pick. The clock is running, and you are bleeding out.

Re:Good

[jellomizer]

Actually they are.
Like all things in the world we need a balance.
If Labor Laws are too tight, business will not operate in these areas, they will move to somewhere where there are easier laws. Go north to the UK, West to the America's East to China. Causing a lot of people without work, and hurting the economy.

If Labor Laws are too free, then we have blatant exploitation of the workers, creating a situation were people cannot get ahead in life, and are stuck doing what the company says, with no way of saying no without suffering a penalty. Causing the workers to move to a place where they are more labor regulations, that will make their lives easier.

The thing is we need a sweet spot where the Labor Laws allow for both companies and employees growth. Because this will be a compramise that will mean the company will not have all the freedom it wants and the employees will need to do some things that suck too.

Re:Good

[khallow]

The problem here is that such regulation has a tendency to make part that category of business, French. If French businesses labor under this restriction and US/Chinese/Indian/etc businesses do not, then that's going to be rather poor outcome for the French businesses.

Re:Good

[Anonymous Coward]

You don't seem to realise, but other countries have better healthcare than you. They also have this new technology called working in shifts or shiftwork as you will. It comes in handy for situations like this. Perhaps you could have one of your buddies at the NSA take over your role for you when your busy and then we could have 'your' highly insightful comments 24/7.

Re:Good

[Anonymous Coward]

I'll take the tyranny by business. A business gives me compensation for my work; Government takes from that compensation and gives it to someone else.

Not these days, you old fart. Nowadays business takes your job and gives it to a Third-world country. At least government leaves you with something after taxes.

Re:Good

[Hentai]

Because those are the only two possible choices we could make here.

Unfortunately, yes. "Over-regulated bureaucratic tyranny" and "Unregulated plutocratic tyranny" are both strong attractors in our economic phase-space. Any attempt to compromise between them is basically flipping a coin to see which one you wind up with - and if the coin lands on-edge you wind up with an over-regulated bureaucratic tyranny serving unregulated plutocratic masters.

Good luck!

Re:Good

[Anonymous Coward]

Remind me which massive American employer is under investigation, again, for wage-theft on a staggering scale?

Re:Good

[Anonymous Coward]

You don't seem to realize you believe a great deal of nonsense.

Re:Good

[BasilBrush]

How about choice c), no tyranny? What did I win?

Sadly there's no such thing. It a government doesn't set working standards, employers abuse workers.

Re:Good

[QuantumPion]

So basically "slow down over there, you're making the rest of us look bad" enshrined into law.

Next thing you know, they'll be passing a law so that companies must pay salary based on employees need rather then their productivity, because it's not fair that an engineer with a big family gets paid less than a single engineer just because he's not as good at the job.

I swear, it's as if these people read the first half of Atlas Shrugged and said "oh hey, that's a good idea, let's do that!"

Re:Good

[khallow]

I think I'll still go with choice c.

It a government doesn't set working standards, employers abuse workers.

Which is adequately covered by choice c.

Re:Good

[Anonymous Coward]

If you need 24 x 7 x 365 uptime then pay for additional employee's to cover those hours. just because you need 24 hour uptime doesn't mean you can pay an employee for 8 and expect they work 24. 3 shifts of different people working 8 hours a day and your covered.

Re:Good

[Anonymous Coward]

You're complaining to the wrong person.

Re:Good

[Rich0]

Absolutely. The government needs to stop regulating deals between private individuals. If Jim over here wants to sell himself into slavery so that his family can have some gruel to eat, that's his right. I have a nice little hut in the back for them to live in, and it is nice and safe with locks and barred windows. As long as they do good work I have every reason to keep them somewhat healthy.

Re:Good

[mwvdlee]

Auch! Don't have comeback to that, do you?
Probably mostly because there isn't a single argument to respond to, but still...
</sarcasm>

Re:Good

[Anonymous Coward]

I swear, it's as if these people read the first half of Atlas Shrugged and said "oh hey, that's a good idea, let's do that!"

I assure you, in terms of all time bad ideas, the second half is just as bad.

Re:Good

[Anonymous Coward]

No, they are not. Unrestrained lawlessness isn't the virtue that you think it is. It is the means tyranny uses to creep in to our world. But you're ok with tyranny, as long as it is your kind of tyranny, and that is a pitty.

Re:Good

[Khashishi]

With all the French labor laws, the French productivity must be terrible. Just look at where all your shirts are produced. Not France. We could learn a thing or two from the Bangladeshi.

Re:Good

[Anonymous Coward]

Are you sure whatever problems you're having in your dealings with them aren't due to a culture clash? I have learned that the French are not any more difficult than others but even if they might speak English, you don't speak French manners and if you don't, you could just as well start your e-mail with "fuck you, cheese-eating surrender monkeys! Now that I have your attention, take care of this for me before the Germans invade you again."

I once received a broken piece of sailing equipment from a French company and since it was a highly specialized piece of equipment that I couldn't get anywhere else and there was little left of the sailing season, I was really treading the finest line I could based on what I remembered from French class when trying to get them to (1) understand that it arrived broken and (2) I needed a new one ASAP, if at all possible. I knew that too much politeness would be interpreted as sarcasm (or me accusing them of sending it knowing it was broken) and result in a very slow response and too little would just be insulting and also result in a slow response. In the end, it went very well and I received a new item without even having to send the broken one back but I've never figured out if they think I broke it or not because part of their message remains incomprehensible to me.

Re:Good

[Zontar The Mindless]

You don't seem to realise that anybody who's actually lived and worked outside the US knows you are clueless and/or trolling.

Re:Good

[Zontar The Mindless]

All Hail His Majesty Cold Fjord, King of the False Dichotomy!

Re:Good

[Zontar The Mindless]

I'm guessing you take a tube of lube along with you to job interviews, so that your prospective employers can try before they buy?

This has fuck-all to do with being a good or productive employee.

Re:Good

[Rakarra]

Do you think you could explain those concepts to the French IT sites I've dealt with instead?

People willing to work night shifts aren't as common as you might think, and IT sites usually don't need "shifts" at night. There's a big difference between the support a hospital needs to offer and the work that an IT site needs to do at night.

Re:Good

[cold fjord]

You don't seem to realize that some of us have a clue that the world outside the US isn't a uniform sphere of American shaming excellence and limitless resources.

Re:Good

[thegarbz]

Is it really? Australia has some of the toughest labor laws in the world. Deck hands on tug boats earn about as much as senior engineers. Mandated 4 weeks min holidays, long service leave, sick leave, careers leave, paternity and maternity leave, not to mention shift allowances if your shift doesn't fit in a standard slot finishing at 5. The end result... Well just look in the paper. In the past year the entire car industry has pulled out. Refinery's are closing. Phillip Morris have pulled out, and kind of manufacturing is dying. Or poor over paid trades who have been riding the gravy train are now forced to do fly in fly out work because they have successfully forced city based insist out of business.

Yeah sorry but there has to be a balance. I'm not saying that we have to be China but to give unions enough power that unskilled laborers earn more money than skilled professionals and experts. But they made their Bed so now they can sleep in it unemployed

Re:Good

[cold fjord]

Hail Zontar The Mindless, court jester and tormenter of the just!

I take it that you cannot imagine a European hospital or clinic not fully staffed for continuous 24x7 operations, with resources sitting idle just waiting to be put to use?

Doctor shortage reaching crisis, study warns

The German Medical Association (BÄK) and the National Association of Statutory Health Insurance Physicians (KBV) announced the results of a study showing that medical care is becoming harder to find in some parts of the country, particularly rural areas.

The study made it clear “that the doctor shortage is not a phenomenon anticipated for some time in the future, but is an urgent threat,” said KBV head Andreas Köhler. ...

In hospitals, about 5,000 positions were unfilled, the groups said. A decade from now, nearly 20,000 senior physicians and head physicians will have retired.

Medical Leave: Romanian Doctors Fleeing Poor Pay, Corruption For Western Europe

UK has fewer doctors per person than Bulgaria and Estonia

Spanish doctors and nurses emigrate for work

French government fights doctor shortage in rural areas

Europe’s ageing population will face doctor shortage

It is estimated that by 2020, 230,000 doctor‘s roles and 590,000 nursing positions will need to be filled. In less than a decade, there will be a professional shortfall of 1 million jobs in the health sector (including all roles). This means that about 14% of the total demand for health services may not be covered. This prediction is reflected in Italy, where almost 42% of national health service doctors are over 55. There are 14,280 aged over 60 compared to 13,196 aged 30 to 39. This vacuum of personnel is destined be filled increasingly by immigrants. Already in Austria, Belgium, Denmark, Germany, the Netherlands and Poland, 30% of foreign doctors are from non-EU countries. This percentage rises to 60% in France and Italy and even 80% in Ireland and the UK. These findings are a report prepared as part of the project “Health Workers 4all“.

Re:Good

[cold fjord]

I agree, there isn't much there to respond to.
<sarcasm> Shifts? Who could imagine those being used in the US? The whole country closes down at sundown. </sarcasm>

Re:Good

[Anonymous Coward]

Yes they are. Not being to work past 10:00pm as a minor limited my income potential and required me to get a job while in college. Thanks nanny state.

Re:Good

[colinjl]

mod parent up A typical individual has very little power to negotiate against a large corporation (yes of course there are some people with highly in-demand skills or other negotiating levers, but most people not so much). Government regulation (or perhaps unions) can go someway toward balancing the situation.

Re:Good

[mjwx]

Yes, they are. Unrestrained legalism isn't the virtue that you think it is. It is the means of tyranny uses to creep into our world. But you're okay with tyranny, as long as it is your kind of tyranny, and that is a pity.

No, they aren't. Lack of labour laws have always lead to abuses in all historical examples. The abuses of employees lead to unions becoming so powerful.

Besides this, France didn't enact a law. The headline was inaccurate to make it look worse than it actually is. Libertarians and angry conservatives who hate their employees love to do this. In reality it was a private agreement but that actually sounds capitalistic and nothing to get angry about. You might want to try reading the article before launching on a badly thought out tirade.

What happened was that an employer's federation and workers organisation signed a legally binding agreement that employee's must ignore work emails after 6PM. So your boss can still send emails, the employee is in violation of the agreement by answering or even reading it.

Above this the agreement only applies to the signatories, not all French employees.

Re:Good

[Anonymous Coward]

And yet with all these 'problems' their healthcare systems are still better than yours. Go figure.

Re:Good

[cold fjord]

If the definition of "better" is government run, as has occurred in some surveys, then "yes."
If the definition of "better" is superior outcomes, then not really.

Re:Good

[Anonymous Coward]

Of course you have shifts, how else would people work 3 jobs and still not make enough money to live on? But the main point was you thinking other countries don't also have access to shiftwork and that you would lie there bleeding until a doctor came in the next morning.

Re:Good

[cold fjord]

The same way as in Europe, if they could get jobs. The point you don't seem to be getting is that other countries have resource limitations too. If there aren't enough doctors of a needed specialty then you either have one come in on call, despite the fact that they may have already worked that day, or you wait. That isn't hard to understand, is it? Well, maybe it is.

Re:Good

[Anonymous Coward]

I take it you haven't encountered the magic 35 hour limit while working on an issue? Just try getting someone to come it.

Re:Good

[Anonymous Coward]

How about if the definition is cheaper and the people live longer happier lives?

Re:Good

[Stuarticus]

More like "Believe it or not the rest of us actually have kids/a life outside work" and won't be answering outside of work hours except in the case of legitimate emergency. There's always one idiot so willing to climb the greasy pole he'll be the dogsbody if there's no rule against it, you can be that guy of you wish.

Re:Good

[cold fjord]

Either way it won't matter in the long run. Most of Europe is so far below birth replacement rate that it is heading for a demographic crisis. Things won't continue as they are. If things don't start changing soon Europeans will become minorities in their own countries, and it is likely that the new majorities won't hold European values let alone Western values.

Re:Good

[Anonymous Coward]

So you do finally admin they currently have better healthcare, thankyou.

Re:Good

[Anonymous Coward]

The point you dont seem to be getting is that they are far more efficient than you at providing healthcare, and even if this new rule were to change that at all it would still be covered under exceptional circumstances anyway.
Seems you were too busy arguing your system is better you forgot to read the summary.

Re:Good

[Anonymous Coward]

Your correct it's not, but in this case with regards to work/life balance a vast majority of countries do put you to shame.

Re:Good

[cold fjord]

Not so much, no.

Re:Good

[cold fjord]

"Efficient" isn't necessarily better for you, and "efficiency" is irrelevant if they don't have the resources.

Declaring "exceptional circumstances" doesn't help if you run afoul of other rules. I've seen how French labor rules can turn out in practice and you assume too much if you think this is a given.

Re:Good

[david_thornley]

You know, that pay-based-on-need did happen in the rabidly anti-Communist 1950s, at least in some areas of work. An employee would be expected to ask and receive a raise when getting married (got to support a wife) and when kids were born.

Re:Good

[Zontar The Mindless]

As an immigrant to Sweden, I resemble that remark!

Re:Good

[TrollingForHostFiles]

APK sez
It's time to reveal yas:
cold fjord is really
Jeremiah Cornelius.

BURMA SHAVE

Re:Good

[Anonymous Coward]

Yes efficient isn't necessarily better for you, but if their system is already better than yours, which it is. That efficiency makes it cheaper than yours while still being better. It makes the limited resources go further.

Re:Good

[Anonymous Coward]

Well it's pointless discussing this further if you're going to live in your own reality with your own facts, have a good day.

Re:Good

[cold fjord]

I'm pretty sure that US hospital systems don't struggle with the nonsense you see in some of those "efficient" systems. There is no shortage of issues like that, and you seldom see that discussed as part of the package.

Don't leave patients in ambulances to hit A&E targets, hospitals told
NHS starves 1,165 to death

Re:Good

[cold fjord]

Probably just as well. I'm sure there are plenty of facts you have no interest in discussing about those "superior" systems.

Re:Good

[Anonymous Coward]

I see your hungry people and raise with...
twice as many dead babies as France.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/... Even when all the sick ones die at birth, the rest of your healthy ones still dont live as long.
https://www.cia.gov/library/pu...

Re:Good

[cold fjord]

Infant Mortality: A Deceptive Statistic

The Bulletin of WHO noted that “it has also been common practice in several countries (e.g. Belgium, France, Spain) to register as live births only those infants who survived for a specified period beyond birth”; those who did not survive were “completely ignored for registration purposes.” Since the U.S. counts as live births all babies who show “any evidence of life,” even the most premature and the smallest — the very babies who account for the majority of neonatal deaths — it necessarily has a higher neonatal-mortality rate than countries that do not.

La Douce Vie

[Anonymous Coward]

Wouldn't "La Dolce Vita" be what Italians, and not French, call it?

Re:La Douce Vie

[Joce640k]

Maybe some people just use expressions in a foreign language.

eg. Can you think of any Latin words used by lawyers? Latin's been dead for thousands of years!

Re:La Douce Vie

[DeathToBill]

A staggering number of people commenting here appear not to understand English, let alone French or Italian.

Re:La Douce Vie

[L4t3r4lu5]

Maybe some people just use expressions in a foreign language.

Sacrebleu!

Re:La Douce Vie

[Anonymous Coward]

eg (e. g.) exempli gratia

Re:La Douce Vie

[Anonymous Coward]

Sacrebleu!

merde!

That's alright...

[Anonymous Coward]

I already ignore my bosses' emails during working hours.

Re:That's alright...

[Anonymous Coward]

Wally is that you?

It is nice to see..

[Anonymous Coward]

..that the repercussions of "Madame Guillotine" is still very much alive today in modern France. IMHO more countries could benefit from their government representatives being over-shadowed by the potential of losing their heads if they do not work for the benefit of the people.

A law for everything...

[MrLogic17]

Ah, so this explains why Silicon Valley is located in France.

Seriously, if someone wants to work crazy hours, why not let them?

I had that phase in my career, and it paid off. I'm in a different phase now. I just choose not to work after hours. If my employer didn't like that, I'd have found a better job by now. Same thing for travel - I used to travel a ton. Now I don't want to, and so I found a place to work with no travel. I'm a grownup, I can take care of myself, thank-you-very-much.

Re:A law for everything...

[guytoronto]

We don't let people work crazy hours because it allows employers to take advantage of the desperate, poor, and ignorant.

Re:A law for everything...

[Eunuchswear]

Seriously, if someone wants to work crazy hours, why not let them?

Nothing stopping you.

All this says is the boss can't fire you for not replying to his out-of-hours email.

(Previously, he might have made an attempt to accuse you of "faut grave", a grave dereliction of duty, which could get you fired without unemployment insurance).

Re:A law for everything...

[wonkey_monkey]

Don't let the bad headline fool you - it's a legally binding agreement - though exactly what it legally binds the parties to is not entirely clear, as I don't read French and I don't trust the Grauniad's jovial interpretation of it - but it's not a law.

Re:A law for everything...

[Anonymous Coward]

Actually, this is a modification to the Syntec CBA, which is usually the CBA used in technologic company in france. So, not exactly a law, but something that can be referred to.

Re:A law for everything...

[Anonymous Coward]

As opposed to the desperate and poor actually *wanting* to work crazy hours to, you know, *not* be desperate or poor anymore? To maybe, like, better themselves? This is the point of overtime.

I do after-hours work on personal consulting projects because I actually like that extra $10,000 check in the mail that comes in once I finish the project. Makes it much easier to save for the expenses in my life that I know will be forthcoming (ie: car, house, engagement ring, wedding, etc.).

Re:A law for everything...

[Anonymous Coward]

Good for you. But just because you slaved for a few years back then (blablabla...) doesn't mean workers shouldn't be protected from abuse.

  This article is complete FUD btw. Now law prohibits anyone from working remotely after hours. that is non-sense, and also completely impossible to enforce.

  However I think that it is impossible to get fired for refusing to do so. You cannot be fired for refusing to do something that you are not contractually obligated to do, which I find quite a legalistic and sane way of treating the problem. If you employer wants someone who works 16hours a day, then he should SAY SO in your contract.

  FINALLY in all the companies I have worked @, working over hours all the time was greatly frowned upon. People who are tired make bad decisions. It has been true forever and will always be.

Re:A law for everything...

[CastrTroy]

But if the people are ignorant, they won't be aware of the laws that stop employers from requiring them to more hours. If they're desperate and poor, even if they know the laws, they may choose to ignore the laws, because having a job is better then no job. And even if it was possible to enforce, employers would still find other ways to take advantage of their employees.

Re:A law for everything...

[Archangel Michael]

"desperate, poor, and ignorant"

There is no excuse in modern educated society to being "ignorant". None. Even if you are ignorant, getting a computer connected to the internet should eliminate ignorance. Again, there is no excuse. If you have an email address, and a smart phone (as suggested by the Submission), you have no excuse to being ignorant.

I don't count ignorance as an excuse for anything any more. People choose to be ignorant because they spend too much time on silly things (pop culture) and not enough time paying attention to the world around them. Ignorance is bliss, it is easy, it is lazy.

It is very easy to take advantage of people who don't care.

Re:A law for everything...

[Anonymous Coward]

Seriously, if someone wants to work crazy hours, why not let them?

That's not the problem.

Try asking this question:

"If someone wants to make you work crazy hours, why let them?"

Of course, here's the problem when you get in the position of being beholden to your employer, while your employer can consider you a replaceable cog.

Unequal power relationships can take a good degree of restraint.

Re:A law for everything...

[Bengie]

Many times, the crazy hours do not increase your pay. If anything, having "crazy hours" reduces the number of people the employer will hire because they figure they can jsut get 40 hours out of you at work and another 60 hours at home.

Re:A law for everything...

[Anonymous Coward]

So you've decided that no one can be ignorant. OK that's a win for you I guess. How exactly does that address the argument that labour standards are there to protect the variety of people within society that suffer from unfortunate circumstances?

Re:A law for everything...

[Anonymous Coward]

I tried to get a computer. I couldn't figure out how to plug it in.

Re:A law for everything...

[Anonymous Coward]

Because Prisoner's Dilemma, that's why. Left to their own devices (i.e., without exterior constraints) free agents can wind up in a state that's pessimal for everyone.

If Alice, Bob, and Carol are all hungry and desperate enough to work themselves to death, and Dave isn't, who do you think employers are going to hire, all things being equal? Yes, there are exceptional people out there who have the talent and skills (and, at least in my case, fortune of birth) sufficient to offset that. But I don't think an economy which only works for the exceptional and screws over most people is long-term sustainable.

Re:A law for everything...

[BasilBrush]

Ah, so this explains why Silicon Valley is located in France.

And what explains why Silicon Valley isn't located in Somalia?

And what explains why the worlds largest furniture retailer is Swedish?

Why is Silicon Valley located where it is? Because of the network effect around the technical excellence of Stanford University. It's not because of a lack of working standards.

Re:A law for everything...

[xevioso]

Clearly, you aren't salaried.

Re:A law for everything...

[Anonymous Coward]

"desperate, poor, and ignorant"

There is no excuse in modern educated society to being "ignorant". None

There is also no excuse for a modern educated society to allow a situation where people are desperate and poor, it still happens and if your system doesn't handle it you are in for trouble in the long run.

Re:A law for everything...

[AmiMoJo]

I'd rather the guy operating on my heart or writing some safety critical car ECU code hadn't been awake for 48 hours. Also, by working insane hours you are reducing the amount of labour available (i.e. putting someone else out of a job), when you should both be demanding reasonable pay and hours. If a business needs your labour and can't offer you that it isn't a viable business anyway.

Re:A law for everything...

[Actually, I do RTFA]

You seem to be laboring over a lot of misconceptions.

The point of overtime is not for the employee's benefit. It is for the employer's. It's cheaper to pay the additional per-hour overtime premium, then the fixed costs of having an entire additional staffer.

A second job is completely different from working overtime. It doesn't raise expectations for your coworkers, means that certain overhead is paid twice, and the list keeps going.

Re:A law for everything...

[sociocapitalist]

Ah, so this explains why Silicon Valley is located in France.

Seriously, if someone wants to work crazy hours, why not let them?

I had that phase in my career, and it paid off. I'm in a different phase now. I just choose not to work after hours. If my employer didn't like that, I'd have found a better job by now. Same thing for travel - I used to travel a ton. Now I don't want to, and so I found a place to work with no travel. I'm a grownup, I can take care of myself, thank-you-very-much.

The reason that that you have that choice not to work more hours is because of regulation protecting you.

If you don't believe that then go somewhere in the world where no such regulation exists and see how many jobs there are that let you work 'normal' hours.

Re:A law for everything...

[Anonymous Coward]

Silicon Valley is stacked full of H1b, maybe you should check it out since it's been liberalized of the jobs.

Re:A law for everything...

[Zontar The Mindless]

And what explains why the worlds largest furniture retailer is Swedish?

Because most of its products, although designed by Swedes, are actually manufactured in China. These are affixed with labels bearing the names of quaint Scandinavian towns prior to shipping.

What do I win?

Re:A law for everything...

[Zontar The Mindless]

Before I'm downmodded into oblivion, I should point out that my home is largely furnished with items from IKEA Store #1, Kungens Kurva, Stockholm.

Re:A law for everything...

[ultranova]

Seriously, if someone wants to work crazy hours, why not let them?

Because it's impossible to limit it to just them. In a world where labour is already in oversupply, and employment a requirement to function as a part of society, letting someone consent to X to gain a competitive advantace de facto forcing others to consent to X as well. That necessiates having minimum acceptable standards that cannot be bypasses even if the employee genuinely wants to.

Re:A law for everything...

[Anonymous Coward]

It's not about working crazy hours, it's about working when you are not being paid, which a lot of people are being forced into.

Re:A law for everything...

[Stuarticus]

I feel sorry for you, I bought one of their book cases and it broke as soon as I loaded books onto it, the bathroom cabinet is rusting after only a couple of years in the bathroom... Never buying anything from them again.

Re:A law for everything...

[Zontar The Mindless]

They must save the best of the lot for the hometown crowd, then. Sorry about that.

Re:A law for everything...

[BasilBrush]

And that's different from Silicon Valley how? Those manufacturing jobs are in China regardless of whether the working standards are US level or Swedish level. But the creative jobs are in Silicon Valley and Sweden.

Re:A law for everything...

[BasilBrush]

You get what you pay for. IKEA is a place that makes it affordable to furnish a starter home. Then you get better stuff piecemeal as you build your life.

Re:A law for everything...

[Zontar The Mindless]

When we bought our 3BR flat in 2010, we furnished it for about $4000. We've actually got quite a few compliments on it. Some things like the $50 floor lamps with paper shades have been or are getting replaced. But some of the stuff is quite good, like the couch and coffee table in the living room and the daybed in the guest room, and we will probably hang on to those for years to come. Our bed also came from IKEA a couple years before that--that cost me about 2 grand, and I still consider it one of the smartest purchases I've ever made. (Take it from one whose back learnt this the hard way--saving money by sleeping on a crap bed is just plain fucking stupid.) It came with a 20-year warranty, and shows every sign that it's going to last that long.

I have never actually been to any of their outlets in the US, but from what I've been seeing here, I tend to think that you guys must not be getting some of the stuff they stock at their big store here.

get rid of salary pay / make it have a high level

[Joe_Dragon]

get rid of salary pay / make it have a high level before you get out of having to pay OT.

once workers start billing OT for doing work stuff at home then it will stop.

Re:Might look like less of a

[DeathToBill]

Well colour me puzzled. Surely the expression "whatever the French call la dolce vita" demonstrates that, whatever the French do call it, they don't call it la dolce vita? So he knows it's not a French expression, he just doesn't know what the equivalent expression in French is.

Well done for supplying the French equivalent.

Short term - long term

[cyberchondriac]

That's good for workers in the short term, it really is ridiculous how much work intrudes into our personal lives anymore, to where a company can practically own you; I can somewhat relate, having recently been made to go "on call" at work but where we're not really "on call" but expected to actively monitor 40 sites for a week, with a 4 week rotation among employees (and compensation for this new duty.. what's that? Only happens if we actually engage an issue, we're not paid for just the monitoring) I love how an employer can just change the terms of your employment, but it's not like I can walk in and declare I'm now going to make $8,000 more a year. BTW, we have a union, they don't do squat.. they just hit you for dues.
OTOH, this will ultimately put French businesses at a serious disadvantage in competing with other countrys' businesses, as their response time to an issue may be greatly reduced.
Rather than outright ban it, maybe just some solid restrictions on say, 11pm to 6am as off limits.. or alternating weeks or something ...and provide overtime pay, definitely.

Re:Short term - long term

[L4t3r4lu5]

The only reason they get away with such abuse is because you let them. Of course I don't mean you specifically, but people in your position.

And if your union doesn't pull its weight, find another one that does. Failing that, resign and get a more fulfilling job!

Re:Short term - long term

[TheGratefulNet]

And if your union doesn't pull its weight, find another one that does. Failing that, resign and get a more fulfilling job!

yup, its just that easy. there are so many jobs out there, so many employers who will treat you well. yeah, uhuh. right. the job market is looking for people to hire since there are simply not enough workers, anywhere!

(facepalm)

Re:Short term - long term

[JaredOfEuropa]

French companies can have 24x7 coverage, however they cannot force people to work after hours. Those people who elect to work odd hours or overtime are paid for doing so. Sounds just fine to me: it prevents a race to the bottom, and looking at the statistics French workers do just fine in terms of productivity. From personal experience, I've never noticed that the French liberal (commie, sensible, unproductive, fair, take your pick) approach to work/life balance translates to slacking during the hours that they do work. Working with them gives about the same results as with German, Belgian or Dutch firms (cultural differences aside).

Re:Short term - long term

[cyberchondriac]

French companies can have 24x7 coverage, however they cannot force people to work after hours. Those people who elect to work odd hours or overtime are paid for doing so. Sounds just fine to me: it prevents a race to the bottom, and looking at the statistics French workers do just fine in terms of productivity.

Well, since this law just passed (?), there are no useful statistics on it just yet.
If they have people 24/7 with those being "normal" hours for some, then yeah, they should be okay; but if the corporations start getting stingy(er) and start laying off people, or people quit, and the boss expects others to pick up the workload, then they'll have a problem.. at least, that's how they operate around here!).
Presumably this law would probably prevent that, so I guess that's a good thing!

Re:In other news...

[Eunuchswear]

France fails at having an Internationally competitive workforce.

Don't be ridiculous, France has one of the most productive workforces in the world (in GDP/worker and GDP/hour worked).

The Guardian has it wrong

[Orphis]

It isn't forbidden to read emails, it is forbidden for employers to require the employees to read them or be reachable through their personal or company phone.
Employees must be allowed to have a 11h "blackout" between two consecutive working days and 35h during weekends.
If an employee wants to read emails and do extra work, it's up to him, but it can't be imposed.

And this is an agreement just for some business types (mainly IT related), not everyone.

Re:The Guardian has it wrong

[CastrTroy]

Oh, they can't require that you read emails, but guess who will be the first fired when it comes time for downsizing. Will it be the guy who missed or who was unprepared for the random Monday morning meetings because he chose not to read his emails on the weekend?

Re:The Guardian has it wrong

[Anonymous Coward]

what does the law say about the once in a lifetime SHTF emergencies?
Even seemingly 'unimportant' jobs can experience those. I've heard a story first hand from a woman who works in a pharmaceutical warehouse store. I assume it is mostly a boring job related to logistics and shit. One day she watched evening news and heard about the contaminated batch of a drug. She knew her store had it in stock and it was supposed to be pushed out the door on that day or the next one. She got all nervous, started calling her 2 coworkers for an hour to no avail, finally managed to contact with one around 10pm or so. They were lucky and stopped the epic shitstorm in its tracks.

Re:The Guardian has it wrong

[Anonymous Coward]

Typically, it will be the guy with the highest salary. I would explain why, but you would need an MBA to understand.

Re:The Guardian has it wrong

[Anonymous Coward]

Considering it's France, it will be the person with the least seniority at the company. You didn't expect that a country with such strict labor laws had employement-at-will, did you ?

As another post already stated, in France the chief reason why you can fire someone is refusal to obey reasonable, documented work instructions. This just establishes what reasonable is, and thereby implicitly that it's impossible to fire someone over this. just won't work. Either such a policy would be documented and in violation of the union bargained contract, or undocumented and thereby not sufficient proof for firing someone.

Re:get rid of salary pay / make it have a high lev

[royallthefourth]

In the 1980's, IBM (among others) invested lots of money to have legislation passed that makes programmers, engineers, and sysadmins into "salaried professionals" so that they wouldn't have to pay overtime.

The only way that could possibly be reversed is a group larger and more powerful than the owners of tech companies fighting to reverse it; that is to say, the organized tech workers will have fight for our own standard of living. We won't be able to do that until we are actually organized, though. Perhaps the sporadically striking fast food workers who were previously thought to be powerless can set an example for us.

A FANTASTIC idea!

[fellip_nectar]

Ah, yes! Let's make forced overtime the employees fault!

Boomerang

[barlevg]

My boss has started using this, because he knows that if I see an email come in at 10pm, I will open it on my phone, read it, and then promptly forget about it before I get to work the next morning.

Re:Boomerang

[Anonymous Coward]

Why would it matter whether you forgot what the mail said? Do you immediately delete the email after reading it? How do you plan your workday? You don't? Just keep working on whatever you felt like working on? Sounds nice, but if I were your boss I would start by making you learn the basics if personal task management. Then I would fire you unless things improved.

Re:Boomerang

[140Mandak262Jamuna]

The PHB would use the fact against barlevg during performance review about the number of times (s)he has been told something no action was taken, and number of time the hard working PHB had to remind barlevg to get anything done.

Re:Boomerang

[ColdWetDog]

OTOH ignoring emails (and the microproblems they typically allude to) just might make one more productive and happier to boot. If you ignore someone on a regular basis, they typically go elsewhere to find the answer to life, the universe and everything.

I've used that selectively and I find it a very refreshing change of pace.

Do you really need to legislate this stuff?

[Anonymous Coward]

How about mandatory pee breaks?

Re:Do you really need to legislate this stuff?

[Bongo]

How about mandatory pee breaks?

You should't be required to answer the phone then either.

Re:Do you really need to legislate this stuff?

[Anonymous Coward]

You clearly never worked in a factory..

Re:Do you really need to legislate this stuff?

[Anonymous Coward]

If you don't mandate it, you get into the grey zone of companies strongly hinting that it would be prudent to answer your mail 24/7, offering nothing in return. You're free to ignore it, of course - and they're free to keep it in mind when dealing with you. Making it explicitly illegal gives you a much punchier answer if it comes up.

Re:Do you really need to legislate this stuff?

[Anonymous Coward]

If it's just pee breaks, get a catheter and a bag. Problem solved.

Re:Do you really need to legislate this stuff?

[david_thornley]

Mandatory pee breaks do exist (they're not specifically labelled for urination, but that's one of their purposes). Unfortunately, some people have found that, if they insist on being able to pee every two hours, they get fired.

Re:In other news...

[Anonymous Coward]

France fails at having an Internationally competitive workforce.

And somehow, still have many companies being internationally competitive.

And if they break the law, then what?

[RevWaldo]

A fine? And if the business is willing to pay it as the cost of doing business?

.

Re:And if they break the law, then what?

[Anonymous Coward]

I'd expect the French equivalent of a restraining order - every future violation is an automatic fine. Companies can be fined into obedience, precisely because they have a duty to earn money.

Re:And if they break the law, then what?

[mjwx]

A fine? And if the business is willing to pay it as the cost of doing business?

.

Hey, looks like you didn't read the article and don't know what you're on about.

First off, it's not a law. It's a legally binding agreement between an employers federation and a workers organisation. So it only covers the signatories, not all of France.

Secondly, its a private agreement. I know I mentioned it twice, but it's such a big point it's worth mentioning twice.

Thirdly, the onus to ignore work emails is placed on the employee. the boss may still send them, but if an employee reads them the employee is in violation of the agreement. The only restriction on the employer is that they cannot pressure an employee to do anything outside of work hours.

Here's the article

Hey, but the actual problem sounds like employers and employees getting along... That doesn't make for good news for angry conservatives.

Re:And if they break the law, then what?

[RevWaldo]

Hey, glad to help you use up your free time. You're welcome.

I shall rephrase for those who are more about answering questions than parsing sentences:

If one or either party violates the agreement, does anything of consequence happen? If so, what?

.

Re:And if they break the law, then what?

[RevWaldo]

Tell that to UPS and Fedex in NYC, who are constantly ticketed for double parking and other traffic violations. They just pay up.

Recently heard this tidbit, redacted to protect the guilty. Execs from the Fortune 500 company would take the corporate helicopter from the helipad on their HQ in the city to their offices in the suburban office park. Basically it's five minutes by helicopter, thirty minutes by limo. It's against the town ordinances to actually land a helicopter in the office park, so they were fined $4000 every time they did it, which was apparently about once a week. They paid it.

.

La Dolce Vita...

[curious.corn]

... is not a French film, it's Italian, written and directed by Federico Fellini (together with several other heavyweights of italian contemporary culture.) That's like saying that sombreros are typical of the USA... pfff

What does the agreement REALLY say?

[wonkey_monkey]

Would anyone who reads French be able to give a less jovial and more accurate interpretation of what the French article says?

Call me cynical, but I have a hunch we may not be getting the full story from the Guardian's "article."

Also:

New French Law Prohibits After-Hours Work Emails

It's not a law.

Re:What does the agreement REALLY say?

[CQDX]

It's 4:30 over there. Quit'n time. You'll have to wait until 9am tomorrow before anyone over there is allowed to answer.

Re:What does the agreement REALLY say?

[Eunuchswear]

It's 4:30 over there. Quit'n time. You'll have to wait until 9am tomorrow before anyone over there is allowed to answer.

You're thinking of Germany, not France.

We tend to quit around 18:30.

Re:What does the agreement REALLY say?

[Anonymous Coward]

Les Echos speak of an agreement of bosses in IT and two (big) unions ("CFDT" and "CGC"). It is an addendum to the 1999 agreement that settled on a 35 worked hours week. It is specific to a type of contract ("forfait jour", where the work agreement isn't on hours worked per year but on days worked per year, giving a bit more flexibility for the intellectual professions). The third big union ("CGT", usually the least compromising union of the three) didn't sign, because they wished this addendum took into account more employees.

The agreement is amended to enforce the 11 (continuous) hours of free time between work days (seems like "article 4.8.1" in the linked text). It specifies that to qualify as this kind of free time, the employee must be disconnected from any mean of remote work.

Also, French do say "dolce vita".

Re:In other news...

[CQDX]

Yes, but are their business units in France the ones that do well? Or is their satellite offices in other countries like the UK and Germany that pick up the slack?

Illegal to work

[roman_mir]

So what this law does is preventing people who want to do more from doing it, making it illegal for people who want to climb the corporate ladder faster from attempting that.

I am sure that the French will figure out a simple way around this law, after all if an employer sets up a newsgroup and posts to it after hours, who can prevent employees that are interested in reading what the boss posts from subscribing?

Re:Illegal to work

[Eunuchswear]

No, what this not-a-law does is makes it harder for your boss to sack you for not doing work outside working hours.

If you want to try and climb the slippery pole by brownnosing, feel free.

The Guardian article is not accurate

[taikedz]

Reading the original article on Les Echos.fr, it seems to me this is not law but an agreement between a coalition of enterprise owners and the unions - they've signed an agreement to implement this.

La semaine dernière, après six mois de négociation, le patronat des sociétés d’ingénierie et de conseil et des bureaux d’études (Syntec et Cinov) a signé avec la CFDT et la CGC (56% de leurs salariés à elles deux) un avenant à l’accord de 1999 sur les 35 heures qui pourrait avoir valeur d’exemple.

"Last week, after six months of negotiation, [ a union of ] bosses of engineering, consulting and design departments (Syntec and Cinov) signed with CFDT and CGC [workers' unions] (56% of their joint workforce) an ammendment to the 1999 agreement on the right to 35 hour working week which could set an example [to the rest of the country?]."

A third union that didn't sign, the CGT, is actually deploring the fact that it still has a loophole allowing it to be ignored, and a previous agreement between the two camps to try and improve working conditions was struck down by a court of law:

Cela suffira-t-il à convaincre les juges? L’avenant est un nouvel épisode du feuilleton juridique, que les signataires espèrent être le dernier dans leur profession. En avril 2013, la Cour de cassation avait invalidé le précédent dispositif, jugeant le contrôle de l’amplitude et de la charge de travail insuffisant.

Will it be enough to convince the judges? The amendment is a new episode in this jurisdiction saga, which the signatories hope to be the last in their profession. In April 2013, a high court rejected their last attempt, judging that the control of the amplitude and amount of work insufficient.

French journalistic style is not as easy to decipher as English-language journalism -- the French style is very fond of appearing as literary as possible. I'll post extra translations at some point if anybody wants.

Re:The Guardian article is not accurate

[Anonymous Coward]

As a French, I will add a few things :
- this agreement isn't for all french worker, but only for specific workers under a specific labor agreement (mainly for people working in IT as contractor)
- these specific workers work on a fixed number of days per year
- when working on a fixed number of days per year, you have to do at least 8 hour per day of work, but it can be extended without being paid or considered as OT
- this "agreement" can be read/understood as : "great, we can now have our employes for 13 hours per day without risk of being harmed by the law"

There was an "unsaid rules" in France that said that "you have a work phone -> you need to answer it as soon as you have a mail, call, etc" : let's say that not obeying this "rules" can be quite "bad"

Being "on call", isn't well paid, on the contrary

Re:The Guardian article is not accurate

[Anonymous Coward]

Yes, this is only limited to two IT service companies, far away from the catchy title of this post.
Anyway, it is bad for the individual worker's performance to be online and available 24*7 and it has a poor impact on an individual's well-being.
We do need downtime...

Re:The Guardian article is not accurate

[claudebbg]

Thanks a lot taikedz for this sharp reading of the original article.

It's not at all "after hour" but only to preserve (remind of) the legal 11h break between workdays that is already in the law to avoid harming the employees health. The new catch is that it's an obligation for the employer to put some measures in place and define these hours. And you are right, it's not a law but the result of a negotiation (and not a violent one) between employees/employers unions

It leaves 13h a day 5 1/2 days a week for heavy workers to be connected : ~70 hours availability (max) paid 35... let's compare productivity now.

I know some journalists these days like to criticize France (mainly French ones, in France we are the world champ' on criticizing ourselves, look, I did it myself) but work habits, especially in IT, are not cool/lazy at all. French geeks like it long and dense like most geeks... Laws around innovation activities are quite interesting in France (less to no taxes and many public help), IT/science schools/universities are quite good as well, and the work market (the one I know, in IT) is still in favor of employees.

Re:In other news...

[taylorius]

"France fails at having an Internationally competitive workforce."

Good for them. In the race to the bottom, France's "failure" sounds more fun than being the winner.

I wouldn't like this

[swillden]

Many people seem to enjoy strict segregation of work and personal life. I don't. I like flexibility; I like being able to leave work for a few hours in the middle of the day to go to a kids' school play, or go for a bike ride, or go skiing (next winter I'll be working from home full-time, 20 minutes from a ski resort; I'm seriously planning to be skiing from 9-11 AM almost daily) or whatever. I like being able to, with a totally clear conscience, spend an hour reading and posting on slashdot or G+ or whatever. I also like being able to work in the evening when inspiration strikes, or to make up for time spent away from work during the day, or for whatever reason. Heck, maybe I just want to and for whatever reason don't have anything better to do just then.

I don't live to work, but I like my work, and I don't like drawing a sharp line separating work and non-work. I think that sort of separation is a recent invention anyway; historically work has been a part of life rather than walled off into a particular portion of each day. Of course, I have no objection to people who prefer to manage their work/life balance by sharply separating them. If that what works for them, more power to them. It's not my preference, though, and it's not the only way to balance the two. It's not something that should be legislated.

MOD Parent up!

[Phreakiture]

Mod this guy up because he actuall read all the words and demonstrated the ability to grok basic sentence structure.

Re:MOD Parent up!

[Anonymous Coward]

Don't encourage him.

If it can be done in English

[Austrian Anarchy]

If whatever work French employers want done can be done in English and online, I am right here ready to do it! I've been unemployed for a while now and would rather be working.

morons

[slashmydots]

Back in a world with logic, just tell people not to check their e-mail after hours. It's actually a lot simpler to not do something than it is to do something.

Re:morons

[gstoddart]

Until your boss starts howling that he sent you an email at 8pm and you didn't reply to it until morning.

Increasingly, companies are expecting you to put in your day, and then still work all of the rest of the day.

My wife's company just keeps scheduling after hours work, piling on the day to day work, and expecting that people will magically do their full work week and cover all of the after-hours work.

At a certain point, companies need to understand they don't own the right to all of your time in a week, and there is a point in the day where you say "and, I'm finished for today".

But companies want to run their employees like rented mules.

Re:morons

[Anonymous Coward]

Just tell the boss that the company is (currently) not paying for people to check their emails after work.

Sending emails is fine, demanding or even just expecting them to be read is wrong.

Keep dreaming

[Noryungi]

One point that is not in the original Guardian article is that this is a proposal only, and a proposal that only applies to French companies that are part of the "Syntec" work agreement.

- Huh?

Yes, in France, companies can adhere to negociated work agreements (named "accord") that define more precisely than the French laws what is possible and is not possible. Syntec is one such agreement, and it pretty much covers the vast majority of IT firms.

Now... What you, gentle reader, need to know, is that that the Syntec agreement is not really that nice to IT employees, as it also defines a lot of things (unpaid overtime, etc.) that are not in the interests of the workers, to say the least. And many IT firms choose not to belong to Syntec, but instead to one of the "accords" that are even more constraining. The company I work with (''it-whose-name-shall-not-ever-be-said-aloud'') belongs to an "accord" that is used to define rules... for the steel industry.

And before anyone starts foaming at the mouth about how French workers are lazy and only work 35h per week: I don't know ANYONE, and I mean ANYONE in France who works 35 hours per week, except maybe a few government employees and McDonald's workers. Yes, I know a lot of people in France who work much longer than that and, yes, I am one of them. Just so you know.

Re:Keep dreaming

[Anonymous Coward]

MOD THE FUCK UP PLEASE.

  only piece of commentary worth something in the whole thread.

  And I work @ a syntec company is this is a completely legit idea. Checking your mails @ 10pm won't make you work better. You end up treating everything lightly and never getting to the bottom of things. terrible for busines and for quality of life.

Re:Keep dreaming

[jean-guy69]

One point that is not in the original Guardian article is that this is a proposal only, and a proposal that only applies to French companies that are part of the "Syntec" work agreement.

And it only applies to 200 000 workers whose worktime is not counted not in hours but in days (forfait jour), not one million..

That means they can work much more that 35 hours / week.

The limit being the labour law, ie: you must have rest period of at least 11 consecutive hours between each day of work and 35 consecutive hours each week. (so they can theorically work up to 88 hours in a week)
The modification to the agreement implies that during these mandatory rest periods the worker has to disconnect from work email, remote access.

Seems fair to me..

Re:Keep dreaming

[DaJoky]

Additionaly, if you stop reading your messages after 6pm, according to what is described in the document (page 4 / 4.8.1), it means you can legally go back reading your mails at 5am. This rule of 11h of connection-free-time is stupid, but not as bad as presented by the up-worthy news headlines ("You won't believe how much free time have French managers!" ;-) ). There is another rule of 35h free-time for the week end, meaning that we shouldn't read email/text the whole Saturday + 11hours around that day. (let's call that, The Hangover Agreement).

Yes, they are

[unixcorn]

I want the flexibility to make my own rules with my employer. Sure, I am on call but I make $40K more than my peers so, to me, it's worth it. I also expect to go home at night and order from 24/7 websites so I am guessing other employers require some of their workers to be on call like me. It's not perfect but I own it, not some government douche who thinks he is doing me a favor.

Re:Yes, they are

[Anonymous Coward]

"A nation of temporarily inconvenienced millionaires" indeed. It's optimistic at best to think that this normally would be an equitable negotiation - more commonly, the employer would hint (in a non-legally-binding way) that it'd be preferable that they could reach you outside working hours, without actually offering anything in return.

Re:Yes, they are

[Guybrush_T]

What you described is not prohibited by the agreement.

The idea is only to count the work you do 24/7 as "working hours". And any hour above 35h / week will give you some rights (salary, vacations, ...).

That way, your work contract will be clearer -- no hidden things, no change in situation like your boss sending you e-mails more and more without a pay increase to reflect the extra hours you're doing.

But again, it does not prevent you to check your e-mails at home.

Disclaimer : I'm french.

Re:Yes, they are

[Anonymous Coward]

Balanced environment - not strict inflexible rules. That is important.
It is 4th year when I am working on "evening shift" (6 or 9h difference between EU and customer in US).
I am also on call. And I am fine with that. Because:
1. I do not have kids.
2. I am paid extra. (comparing to people who are working 9-5)
3. When I need to do something during my "evening hours" it is enough to inform earlier that "today I will work on different schedule, call me if something happens"
        as side effect - I accumulated around 60 days paid vacations time. Soon it will be use it or loose it time. :-)

If boss expect me to react to his emails after work hours, he should also accept I am leaving for 2h in the middle of the day, I will finish this later ...

Re:Yes, they are

[xevioso]

I never understand why the most insightful comments about the topic at hand, the one that actually sheds some light on the topic by someone who might know a little about it, is always at the bottom of a thread on /.

Re:Yes, they are

[Rakarra]

I never understand why the most insightful comments about the topic at hand, the one that actually sheds some light on the topic by someone who might know a little about it, is always at the bottom of a thread on /.

Thinking about something takes some time. A quick one-off comment that takes a moment to send out, those will be at the top in descending-order time.

Re:get rid of salary pay / make it have a high lev

[Anonymous Coward]

I work in the US as a software engineer, and I work at a company with many engineers. We're salaried, and we get payed OT. One year I worked so much OT I got 1.33x my salary, which is abysmal for work-life balance, but for a young unmarried 20-something it's fine.

Re:get rid of salary pay / make it have a high lev

[blahbooboo]

In the 1980's, IBM (among others) invested lots of money to have legislation passed that makes programmers, engineers, and sysadmins into "salaried professionals" so that they wouldn't have to pay overtime.

What legislation was this specifically that forced these folks to be "salaried" because I never heard of such a thing?

Re:Might look like less of a

[jrumney]

French equivalent "la bonne vie"

Or perhaps la vie fade (dolce has a wide range of meaning).

I order you to be an unproductive country!

[EmagGeek]

I would despise living under a regime that prohibited me working if that's what I wanted to do.

Re:I order you to be an unproductive country!

[egyas]

I would despise living under a regime that prohibited me working if that's what I wanted to do.

Worse than that, think about a few things. Small companies that need to do "after hours changes" will now have to institute shift-work where they didn't have it before, or at least a 1:1 hour shift for those changes. At my job,. I work 40 scheduled hours, and somewhere between 1-20 hours after that just to get done what needs to be done. Not including the on-call hours when it's my week in the rotation. If this stands, my hunch is that you will see even increasing outsourcing of IT jobs to India, or other countries w/ looser work rules and lower labor costs. How will those French IT workers live "the sweet life" when they are too poor to afford their wine and cheese since they are unemployed?

Re:I order you to be an unproductive country!

[Anonymous Coward]

Luckily the French have no problem with this "wanting to work" that you speak of.

Re:I order you to be an unproductive country!

[JustNiz]

Nobody is stopping you doing your hobby.

What they are stopping is companies that abuse employees by having an employment contract and pay rate for a nominal 40 hour week, but then they punish those that stick to the contract by not working more hours for free.

What they are also correcting is the mass brainwashing of the middle classes that working for free and 60+ hour weeks is somehow something to be admired/looked up to.
 

Re:I order you to be an unproductive country!

[egyas]

According to the article, France has had a 35 hour work week since '99.

Re:I order you to be an unproductive country!

[Anonymous Coward]

France has had a 35 hour work week since '99.

Exactly! They think that because they are brainwashed!

Re:I order you to be an unproductive country!

[EmagGeek]

"How will those French IT workers live "the sweet life" when they are too poor to afford their wine and cheese since they are unemployed?"

There's an app^H^H^Hentitlement for that.

Re:I order you to be an unproductive country!

[JustNiz]

It used to be 35hrs a long time ago, however 40+ hours has been the norm in France since maybe the 90's, however compared to the US, all countries in the EU especially France get a lot more holidays days and vacation time as standard.

Re:get rid of salary pay / make it have a high lev

[afidel]

Or, you know we could negotiate a salary that we are happy with given the job descriptions we are applying for. Since I make between 2 and 3 times the median wage I'm ok with answering some emails off hours or waking up to a page once every 6 months due to a system problem. Then again I'm a tech lead and hence management so I'd be exempt under just about any rules =)

April Fools?

[Anonymous Coward]

Kinda late for April 1st

Since France has already abolished work

[Applehu Akbar]

...It is only natural that they abolish the after-work email.

Re:get rid of salary pay / make it have a high lev

[royallthefourth]

See what that gets you after a few years when your salary has effectively dropped 5% due to raises failing to keep pace with inflation. Where do you turn when all the jobs in town are shit and your pay is stagnating? There's not always an individual option available.

At that point, the only option left will be collective action against the company. The only question remaining is how long it will take for tech workers to pull their heads out of their asses and realize that half of them will never afford retirement at the current pace of things.

Re:In other news...

[Anonymous Coward]

Ha, not in aerospace. I've seen the french lose so many service deals in that sector due to restrictive labour laws it's not even funny.

Re:get rid of salary pay / make it have a high lev

[Eunuchswear]

Well this agreement is actualy only for "management".

Of course it doesn't apply to people "on call", as long as "on call" is limited to a certain number of days/year.

And it's only a limit on what you can be required to do, it doesn't limit what you can do of your own free will.

(A page every six months. You lucky bastard. I dream of only getting a page once every six months).

Re:Might look like less of a

[Anonymous Coward]

French don't say "la bonne vie". "La belle vie", maybe. They also say "dolce vita".

Doctors are on call, have been on pager for ages..

[140Mandak262Jamuna]

It depends on the salary, pay and the level of the employees. If we force lowly paid workers to answer email during off hours, certainly they should be compensated for it. But, on the other hand, there are software professionals making 2 times median wages or more. People who are paid salary compared to that of the Chairman of the Federal Reserve, (I remember Greenspan was drawing a salary of 140K per year in Washington DC. Not sure what it is now), they can answer email, log in via vpn and do more work.

Commander Data: No, it is empirical data.

[Impy the Impiuos Imp]

This is based on the empiraclly disproven notion that if you restrict work hours that more people will get hired because, hey, the work's still gotta get done, right?

Even after this was repeatedly demonstrated as wrong (unemployment goes up) voters elected to keep the rules. But one shouldn't think for a microsecond it's about anything remotely resembling "increasing employment".

Re:Might look like less of a

[Eunuchswear]

French equivalent "la bonne vie"

Or perhaps la vie fade (dolce has a wide range of meaning).

The "boring, unseasoned, tasteless life"?

Zow, that's a weird translation.

"La dolce vita" (the film) was released in France as "La Douceur de vivre".

Douceur: softness/sweetness/gentleness/smoothness

Re:Doctors are on call, have been on pager for age

[140Mandak262Jamuna]

Federal government salary levels: http://www.ntu.org/on-capitol-...

Highest paid federal employees: http://xfinity.comcast.net/sli...

This gives mean wages instead of median, but still better than nothing. Software professional wages: http://www.bls.gov/oes/current...

I would guess people making more than 150K can be expected to answer email at off hours without additional compensation. Part of the job. But at some point below, may be below 100K or so, they should be compensated.

Re:get rid of salary pay / make it have a high lev

[royallthefourth]

Sorry, that was 1996. I don't think it "forced" anyone to become salaried on its own, but it did give employers the right to deny overtime.

Between equal rights, force decides; unorganized workers have basically no force compared to the company.

http://www.generalcounsellaw.c...

Re:get rid of salary pay / make it have a high lev

[digsbo]

I dream of only getting a page once every six months).

That's too bad. We have two teams where I work. Mine, which rarely deals with off-hours calls (about once every six months), and the other, which gets woken up multiple times per week. The difference is root cause analysis and fixing broken stuff. How does your manager approach that?

A Natural Progression

[korbulon]

New French Law Prohibits After-Hours Work Emails.

New French Law Prohibits After-Hours Work.

New French Law Prohibits Work Emails.

New French Law Prohibits Work.

Re:get rid of salary pay / make it have a high lev

[aaarrrgggh]

Are you kidding?! Salary offers much better protection than hourly work. Hourly wages are for non-thinking/production positions, and salary is for professional/management. A salary (exempt status) provides flexibility for how and when you do your work as should be done for a professional.

Now, if you are help desk or spend your life doing TPS reports in a small cube, you really should be non-exempt... But nobody should aspire to non-exempt status career in the tech world.

There are abuses on both sides, but it really comes down to find a different job if you don't like the balance of hours, responsibility, and pay.

The French don't have e-mail

[PPH]

Its called courrier electronique.

Re:The French don't have e-mail

[jean-guy69]

Courriel according to the Académie française

Feel free to do so! Just recognize that your

[mpercy]

co-workers who are willing to go beyond the strict 9-5 will get all the brownie points and the bigger raise and the better office.

Or perhaps they will just continue to be abused.

Depends on the individual circumstance.

Re:Feel free to do so! Just recognize that your

[Desler]

Feel free to do so! Just recognize that your co-workers who are willing to go beyond the strict 9-5 will get all the brownie points and the bigger raise and the better office.

Great for them. I'm sure those things will be great and wonderful after they're dead. Some of us actually think life is much more than money and big offices.

Re:Feel free to do so! Just recognize that your

[Anonymous Coward]

Feel free to do so! Just recognize that your co-workers who are willing to go beyond the strict 9-5 will get all the brownie points and the bigger raise and the better office.

Great for them. I'm sure those things will be great and wonderful after they're dead. Some of us actually think life is much more than money and big offices.

Then don't bitch when someone else is able to buy a bigger house in a nicer neighborhood with better schools.

Or afford better healthcare. (And expecting "free" healthcare is in some ways a form of bitching about others being more successful...)

Or pay to put their kids through a better college.

Re:Feel free to do so! Just recognize that your

[Desler]

Then don't bitch when someone else is able to buy a bigger house in a nicer neighborhood with better schools.

I don't. Most of those McMansions are crappily built anyway. And once your dead, who cares?

Or afford better healthcare. (And expecting "free" healthcare is in some ways a form of bitching about others being more successful...)

Again, I don't and neither will the French since they aren't forced to choose between dying and bankruptcy.

Re:Feel free to do so! Just recognize that your

[jedidiah]

I can already afford the most over hyped school district in my metropolitan area and it didn't require me to be a big gimp.

I can pay CASH for minor hospital procedures. (HSA)

A "better" college is a dubious prospect these days.

Re:Feel free to do so! Just recognize that your

[BasilBrush]

And expecting "free" healthcare is in some ways a form of bitching about others being more successful...

No, it's a sign that you live in a civilised society.

People shouldn't go bankrupt because they are sick, or have to choose which severed finger to have reattached because they can only afford one. Children shouldn't go without treatment because their parents can't afford it. Yet all those things happen in America.

Re:Feel free to do so! Just recognize that your

[petes_PoV]

all the brownie points and the bigger raise and the better office

And they're welcome to it. Along with all the added pressure, politics and satisfaction

Managers also have a far higher risk of redundancy (as no-one can actually see them produce anything) and lower job security as they are more expensive employees. I already earn more than I can reasonably spend and am quite capable of delivering on targets in a sensible number of hours in a 5 day a week.

Re:Feel free to do so! Just recognize that your

[Rakarra]

Your chances of living a rich and fulfilling life take a sharp downturn if you're the one laid off.

Re:Feel free to do so! Just recognize that your

[Anonymous Coward]

Children shouldn't go without treatment because their parents can't afford it. Yet all those things happen in America.

Nope. Kids have been covered for a long time under various anti-poverty programs. The bigger problem is that many of these "parents" are complete dumb-asses who don't take their kids into see a doctor when they should. The other problem is that these kids will likely grow up to be dumb-asses like their parents (see Idiocracy for how this will eventually play out).

Re:Feel free to do so! Just recognize that your

[Anonymous Coward]

And expecting "free" healthcare is in some ways a form of bitching about others being more successful...

No, it's a sign that you live in a civilised society.

People shouldn't go bankrupt because they are sick, or have to choose which severed finger to have reattached because they can only afford one. Children shouldn't go without treatment because their parents can't afford it. Yet all those things happen in America.

This will sound heartless, but why shouldn't they?

After all, healthcare is the fruit of someone else's labor, and declaring a right to the fruit of someone else's labor is uncivilized...

whooosh

[Anonymous Coward]

Whoosh!

Break "law" get promoted

[Anonymous Coward]

I predict that the big complaint in the future will be that people who answer their mails outside of office hours get a bigger chance of promotion

Re:get rid of salary pay / make it have a high lev

[Eunuchswear]

I am my manager.

Small company.

Re:get rid of salary pay / make it have a high lev

[Joey Vegetables]

Perhaps the sporadically striking fast food workers who were previously thought to be powerless can set an example for us.

They are powerless. No amount of bullying or legislation can force someone to pay $15 per hour to someone who adds less than $15 per hour to the profitability of the business. Any employer forced to do so will employ fewer people, raise prices, or go out of business.

companies just browbeat/coerce to not book it

[Anonymous Coward]

my spouse works for a huge software company (the one with the playboy owner as opposed to one w/the recently deposed lunatic or deceased demigod [that also sells hardware]). they were exempt forever but several yrs ago got converted to nonexempt b/c of a lawsuit. their bonuses got cut in 1/2 b/c they were told "you'll more than make it up in overtime! trust us, this is a win for you!".

I'm sure it will come as a total shock to the /. community that what happened within a couple yrs is that bonuses stayed cut but people are now browbeaten for booking overtime but measured against same objectives which can not possibly be met in 55 hrs... it's not that they "can't" book any but predictably those who book what they actually work are scrutinized while those who book the least are held as examples even though everyone knows they're actually working more than they're booking.

so despite noble intentions of whoever filed the suit the net result is less comp for same hrs worked...

Misleading title

[Anonymous Coward]

This is not a law.
It's only a principle agreement signed between IT unions and bosses defining guidelines as to how to interpret labor laws in the IT sector.

What the companies promised is to not systematically interrupt their workers' legal daily rest time of 11 consecutive hours through texting / mail / phone. They'll still consider themselves entitled to call you at 11PM for no reason but in that case you'll have the right to start à 10AM the next day. You still won't be paid overtime.
Companies also agreed that they can't expect employees to be actively monitoring their e-mail or text messages when they're off the clock, unless they signed a paid off-the-clock-call contract.
So basically this it just IT bosses promising they'll stop being dicks because the Court of cassation (something like the Supreme Court) found they had a rather liberal interpretation of labor laws.

Read the words

[mpercy]

The OP said "whatever the French call la dolce vita" as in "I don't know the words the French might use, but there's a phrase 'la dolce vita', which is Italian; I'm sure the French have a similar phrase, I just don't happen to know it".

Re:Read the words

[Anonymous Coward]

C'est la belle vie!

This is not just about workaholics.

[Aquitaine]

This is a Real Life Scenario:

About half of our company's revenue comes from helping volunteer organizations manage their operations. Specifically, volunteer-driven youth sports leagues.

This is great in several respects for us:

- Most everyone we work with is super nice. 'High stakes' here versus, say, finance or law ... the boiling point is not often reached.
- The primary beneficiary of what we do is children.
- We get to help organizations run by people in their spare time grow.

It's also not great in a few respects:

- Not a ton of money in it (fine with us)
- Our support burden varies dramatically because our users are all over the map, literally and figuratively.
- Most of the volunteers who are our clients work on our stuff when they aren't at their day jobs.

This last item means that, from time to time, we'll have something come up at 7:00 PM (or later, since some of our customers are two or three time zones behind us) and it really does need to be dealt with right then. This is pretty rare due to how awesome we are, and even more rare that it takes more than a couple minutes to solve - but it does happen and no matter how good of a job we do during business hours, our customers have come to expect that we are at least paying attention while they are working with our stuff. It's actually a pretty small sacrifice and we don't spend our nights and weekends hooked to our smartphones: but we do have to glance at them to make a quick judgment call on whether whatever has caught on fire can wait until the morning.

This sort of government fiat idiocy is absolutely typical: the people who are most able to comply with it will be large businesses that have enough people and resources to just schedule people according to when they need coverage so that 'business hours' are not being violated. It is usually big business that can absorb the costs of rules like these. We have a handful of people who work for us and they have lives. They enjoy the freedom and flexibility of the job and they (like me) feel that having to be mildly attentive after hours for the once a month that you do have to put in a little extra work is a small price to pay.

None of which is to say that it's not possible to pressure your salaried employees to do things after hours that they don't want to do; but there is some responsibility on the employee side to be up front about what the commitment expected of them is. The best antidote to companies that do take advantage of their employees in this manner is competition: the knowledge that they could go to work for us (or anybody) who won't do that to them. Shame that rules like this mean there will be a lot fewer of us when they do go looking.

Re:In other news...

[Anonymous Coward]

France fails at having an Internationally competitive workforce.

Don't be ridiculous, France has one of the most productive workforces in the world (in GDP/worker and GDP/hour worked).

When you compare "productivity" between countries, do NOT use GDP/worker or GDP/hour.
Compare within the same industry. Then you will see effectiveness.
For example Luxembourg - no heavy industry, no raw materials mining and processing , no agriculture. Instead you will find there financial services and dummy corporate headquarters. (like Amazon S.a.r.l). GDP/worker is very high. (Q: How many bankers and lawyers do you need to launder 1 million USD?)
Please compare French vineyards against Spanish or Italian or Californian. Compare French automotive factories against similar factories located in Romania, Germany, China or Mexico. Compare coal mines against another coal mines. And last compare French bankers against US or UK bankers.

It depends on your personal control

[swb]

....and compensation.

A lot of people are told to "be available" or told they will be working extra hours, often on short notice, with no additional compensation or time off. Even worse is the unstated assumption that stuff sent after hours will get looked at or that you're paying attention to the non-stop barrage of emails.

Re:It depends on your personal control

[swillden]

You always have control. If nothing else, you can find a different job. Although in France that's a bit harder than most places, for some unfathomable reason.

Ahhh, Tech industry NY, shit pay

[Anonymous Coward]

In the u.s, if some employees(computer supprot, networking, software development) require 24/7 standby, than the average salary should be $120k+(negotiate even if you don't have a college degree) a year. It's not worth destroying your health for 24/7 work, I know i did for $35k(living paycheck by paycheck) a year in ny.

Re:get rid of salary pay / make it have a high lev

[Anonymous Coward]

Well, IBM did get sued over this several years ago for this very thing. Now all but the highest end tech employees are non-exempt.

Re:get rid of salary pay / make it have a high lev

[Oligonicella]

I worked contract for decades. You are not exempt as a contractor, you contract for specific hours and declare specific charges for overtime. They may ask, but they can't make. It's a contract; you can always walk, you can always sue and they know it. If you worked free overtime, it was nobody's fault but yours.

weird

[guil33]

It's not a law per se but a branch agreement between employers and labor unions in part of the IT industry. Even for a french speaker the wording sounds bizarre, as if the 2 parties had only managed to come to a wobbly, half-baked agreement.

Translated form the original agreement :

"Effective respect by the employee of these minimal rest hours implies that they compulsorily disconnect from remote communication tools.

The employer will make sure that a tracking tool is set up to enforce employee daily and weekly off-work times.

They will also put into place any necessary means to ensure that the employee can disconnect from remote communication tools at their disposal.

It should be noted that, in this context, employees with annualized working days, in agreement with their employer, can freely manage the time necessary to accomplish their mission."

While it appears some unions wanted strict obligation to remain off-line between 10 PM to 7 AM (in French), it was finally agreed that it was not feasible due to multi-timezone bound jobs.

My interpretation is that the first sentence is here to allow employers to deny any responsibility if an employee was to work long hours from home on their own initiative and blame that on the company later.

All in all it's not such a big deal, just :

We make sure you can disconnect
You disconnect
You don't sue us for pressurizing you if you don't

As a side note, this isn't unseen before in Europe - in 2011 Volkswagen had already established a daily "truce" in email communications, stopping their Blackberry servers after work hours.

Yeah it sounds great in principle.. but

[Anonymous Coward]

Look, do i want to spend 80 hours a week working?

no of course not..

but if that e-mail i get at 9 pm will give me information that lets me make a decision at that moment which may make my day easier tomorrow.. i am going to at least look and make that decision.

So many times i have walked back into our mfg plant to a fucking train wreck that took 10-20 hours of my time to fix, when a 5 minute e-mail with the correct information would have prevented the issue.

I'd still check my incoming messages.

However it is up to me whether or not i respond at that moment.

LOL

[Anonymous Coward]

There is no reason to make anybody work more then 6 hours a day, 30 hours a week

I'm employed "full time" and barely crack 15 hours a week, with most of those spent in unproductive meetings, writing status reports that will never be read and/or answering/reading stupid emails that are a result of the sender not being bothered to check their gear before taking it on the business trip.

But, hey, I'm in the office, dressed in my slacks and collared shirt, sitting behind my desk, so my boss is happy. I get paid, so I'm (relatively) happy. Beats unemployment. Plus I get to play on ./ and all the other sites.

When people say that government sucks and the private sector is better, I just laugh and laugh.

Re:Might look like less of a

[cold fjord]

The "boring, unseasoned, tasteless life"?

Zow, that's a weird translation.

On the other hand it is still a step up for some people. ;)

I can hear the US complaints already...

[ErichTheRed]

I work for a European company in the US. Our work rules are very different because we're a multinational and HR is handled on a regional basis. Every single one of my colleagues complains about the French 35 hour week and their unwillingness to put in crazy hours like Americans do. I happen to agree with the French on this one, and this comes from a lot of experience working in several different work environments.

US workers love to point to the "lazy socialist French" and make fun of their long vacations and very relaxed work style. And at the same time, they don't realize that they live longer, have better family lives, and are generally better adjusted than most stressed out Americans. Unemployment is higher than it is here, but their society isn't structured around crushing anyone who doesn't have a job. As an example, look at how much people complained about continuing the meager unemployment benefits for long-term unemployed people in the US. People were complaining about giving someone who has no hope of getting another job ever a couple hundred dollars a week to survive on. Long term unemployed this time around aren't lazy -- this time, all the old school manufacturing jobs are being thrown out of the economy, leaving people with average or below average intelligence with no hope of anything beyond fast food employment. But that's another worry for another time.

Back to work hours and work/life balance -- I am incredibly lucky in that I have a job in IT with lots of flexibility. Lots of my peers don't. Employers are constantly trying to squeeze every last minute of work out of their existing resources rather than adding more. Mine is too, but less so...I've been trying to get us another head for quite some time now and it's very hard. I have no problem with having a healthy work ethic, and people do need to be motivated. I do have a problem when I see employers taking advantage of people who don't realize they're being taken advantage of. Especially in IT, I have witnessed a lot of "hero culture" employers who demand that employees be available 24/7 even when it's not really necessary. Millennials are especially susceptible to this because they're used to being tethered to social media all day long. I think this is one of the reasons companies prefer younger workers -- fewer non-work demands on their time and a willingness to work crazy hours simply because they haven't figured out that their employer won't extend them the same loyalty down the road. In my opinion, your average employee is deluding him or herself into thinking that their job is super-important, that everyone else is lazy, and that their employer values them immensely. Evidence shows that this is no longer the case. It may have been in the 50s/60s "job for life" era, but unfortunately that's gone for the most part.

I'm also a new parent, and if you don't have experience, it's very hard to explain the drain on your free time that this places on you if you're doing it right and paying attention to your family. I see stressed out parents working for employers who don't give a damn responding to work emails at 2 in the morning simply because their employer expects that of them. I'll _glance_ at my messages once or twice in the evening, but I don't feel pressure to jump in and fix something right away -- unless something's literally on fire, it can wait. My opinion is this -- if something is really critical enough to require 24/7 coverage, then staff it that way. If you aren't willing to do that, then it's not critical. If the US were to adopt a "no after hours contact" rule or 35-hour week, it would reduce unemployment simply because companies would have to hire more resources. Either that, or a whole lot of "priority 1 mission critical" stuff would suddenly become less so.

Re:I can hear the US complaints already...

[Anonymous Coward]

I work for a European company.

LOL! Europe != work. Europe is about welfare, getting paid to be sick, drugs, pedophilia and kiddie scat bestiality snuff porn.

No regulation

[Anonymous Coward]

I wish I was in the land of deregulation
Safe working conditions at my station
Look away! Ricochet! Run away! Freedom-land.
In Freedom-land where I was born in
Lost a finger from a cotter pin
Look away! Ricochet! Run away! Freedom-land.

My Boss' name is Mr. Weaver
Says, "reach under that metal cleaver"
Look away! Ricochet! Run away! Freedom-land.
But when it came down real hard
He docks my pay, my arm now scarred.
Look away! Ricochet! Run away! Freedom-land.

Break for lunch is only thirty
If you're late, you get no mercy.
Look away! Ricochet! Run away! Freedom-land.
Can't stop the line if I got's to pee
"Just wet your pants," he said with glee.
Look away! Ricochet! Run away! Freedom-land.

I wish I was in the land of deregulation
Safe working conditions at my station
Look away! Ricochet! Run away! Freedom-land.
In Freedom-land where I was born in
Lost a finger from a cotter pin
Look away! Ricochet! Run away! Freedom-land.

Re:In other news...

[cold fjord]

As long as it is sustainable.

Re:In other news...

[Frosty Piss]

France fails at having an Internationally competitive workforce.

Sure, if you are a fan of the coporate greed that is "free trade". On the other hand, if your primary goal is the health of your society, your nation, your people and their quality of life, an "internationally competitive workforce" may not be the top concern on your list.

Another idea

[Max_W]

Sometimes it is hundred times easier to solve a problem by communicating urgently, even after work, than in the morning.

For example, a colleague from another city arrived at the airport and for some reason does not know the name of a hotel. She needs just one word from me.

Or something like this. Just one or two words, and a week of calm work afterwards.

No longer the exception.

[MaWeiTao]

Sometimes there's something critical going on and you need to be in touch after hours. That's reasonable. The big problem is that for most it's become the rule, not the exception.

I've never been told I need to check emails outside of work, however, in recent years I've felt an unspoken pressure to be responsive to emails after hours. Working late bothers me less than this because it feels like an intrusion into my personal life. My own time is for unwinding and taking care of personal obligations, not to keep fretting about work. And without fail, the thing that demanded immediate response was something that could have waited, if it weren't for an impulsive and impatient manager.

Sadly, we're in a world of instant gratification. If people don't get an immediate response they freak out. And it's the same old shit with corporate America; there's an incredible sense of urgency; until the responsibilities fall on them, then they can afford to take on a leisurely pace.

I like working

[whiskeytangofox]

I enjoy working. I think it's fascistic to tell me I can't work when I want to.

Re:In other news...

[Anonymous Coward]

Can't be worse than the current US winner take all, rest of you live on food stamps.

Up the the Employees?

[wisnoskij]

So basically what this is saying is that it is not illegal for your boss to send you an email, it is not illegal for him to ask you to work from home after work hours, it is just illegal for you to agree, and you will be the one fined? At least that is how the summery reads.

Re:In other news...

[Anonymous Coward]

I actually believe France may be the MOST productive on an hourly basis, even more so than Germany.

So these French version of Republicans...

[Anonymous Coward]

are talking about putting us workers in prison for doing what we're told. So, our Republican bosses tell us we must make sure servers are running 24/7, burt then the same Republicans now say they'll put us in prison for doing it. The only choice technical people have is between being fired by a Republican or being imprisoned by a Republican. Boy, France has gone full Tea Party retard.

GDP per capita etc

[Anonymous Coward]

France GDP per capita is USD 35,784, #22 in the world.
GDP per hour worked is USD 60, #6 in the world.
France is #20 for the human development index indicator.
Income inequality is relatively low, measured by the Gini coefficient.

Looks to me like France is doing well. Please continue to reduce working hours France and show the world it is possible to do the same in 24 hours per week !

Do what you say on your tin

[gremlinuk]

My terms and conditions of employment say 37.5 hours per week, plus reasonable hours outside 9 - 5.30pm if necessary (where 'reasonable' is defined between me and my line manager). So, I don't check work email outside 9 - 5.30pm, and only a few people at work know my mobile number (I don't have a work mobile, so that's not an issue). Simple as that.

When you're not at work, you're NOT AT WORK! My employer does not own my time. kthxbai

Exec assistants are always "on the clock"

[mark-t]

So how does that work for that position, exactly? The executive assistants I know have to carry their (company) cell phones with them everywhere, and they are effectively on call 24/7. This French law would definitely run counter to what is essentially a basic job function.

Re:get rid of salary pay / make it have a high lev

[Anonymous Coward]

You don't see what the employers are doing to themselves over time; if you saw that, you too can pick up the pieces when they fall apart.

Requiring degree's for clerical and low-level work + Expensive Degree's from accredited universities who's programs suck anyway = capital flowing to Diploma Mills + clueless HR departments passing over experienced candidates for dishonest mouth-breathers..

Overworking IT Staff = poor structure and design for applications and business processes which introduces a viscous cycle of exponentially increasing errors and thus labor costs. Side Effect: HR tries and fails repeatedly to quantify both general and special experience in determining a candidates success in a position.

Underpaying IT Staff = You get what you pay for. Good people Job Hop or stay on and make management question the mouth-breathers you hired, everyone and the department exhibits poor performance which ensures the department will never appropriatly apply technology, and your employee's who stay on for years may just decide to do so because "every employer is shit" and they commit Career Seppeku and let their skills slide because no money for certs or classes.

The reason management likes new kids is because they are cheap, work lots of hours, have arguably recent IT educations, but most importantly, don't ask obvious questions that would get them fired or result in budget decreases. Those are for highly paid consultants, most of which are piss and vinegar, to do after repeated failures.

So management has to find "buddy buddy" IT Staff which, anyone who's good gets visibly ill from that statement; we all know that kind of manager has a knife at our backs constantly.

IT people are viscous. We'd rather be underpaid, let Indians take our jobs, then let international companies like Target Nearly destroy themselves with a single data breech or like Fry's did in 2007 when one of their top Indian IT Buyers stiffed the company for a cool 70 million. I would have loved to be in those discussions between Target and the card carriers; they alone have the sole authority to cut off Target's revenue stream. I will guarantee you their 10-k will show "concessions to visa" as a line item hidden somewhere; this is a 8 figure or more deal for them.

Many companies are realizing high standards, high pay, and reasonable hours for IT Staff is the best approach and they will spend a lot of capital cherry picking the market.

A whole country of civil servants

[gelfling]

I'm sorry, I don't care if you're having a heart attack on the front lawn as your house burns. I'm off the clock.

Laugh all you want ...

[PPH]

... at the French work culture. But they are scooping up a number of respected local engineering firms. And running circles around the remaining American run firms.

There's something to be said for the productivity of going to your job, working hard and then relaxing once you are back at home. French law appears to step in where managers fail to think long term about their staff's productivity.

I don't get what the big deal is.

[macbeth66]

My work phone is turned off once I leave the office and is turned back on when I return. When my turn is up to do on-call, I only read texts from our alerting system.

I love my job, but there are limits and boundaries.

Re:Might look like less of a

[Tim the Gecko]

Looking at your mod score of zero I'm feeling whatever the French call Schadenfreude.

Re:get rid of salary pay / make it have a high lev

[royallthefourth]

If there's no money in fast food, where did such a quantity of restaurants come from? Why is so much spent on advertising and infrastructure? It's huge!

Ignore responding if you want

[Anonymous Coward]

But people being people will simply make your job unnecessary if you are not responding. In other words can your ass using redundancy and job irrelevance as the excuse.

Re:get rid of salary pay / make it have a high lev

[vitaflo]

The only way that could possibly be reversed is a group larger and more powerful than the owners of tech companies fighting to reverse it; that is to say, the organized tech workers will have fight for our own standard of living.

Many already have, they've become contractors. When you bill by the hour, most companies will not let you work more than 40 hours per week, and those that do, you get to bill for. It may not be time and a half, but it's payment for time.

You just need to take control over your own career to get out of the salary prison.

Why I use a PC

[Anonymous Coward]

"You should use a laptop", "You need a smartphone", "We should be able to get ahold of you 24/7/365 even though we only pay you for 7.75/5/250. When I'm away from work, I'm on my time. My working for company X means they pay for X, and I work X. My whole life is not dedicated to company X. I'm employed by X, not betrothed to them. I have not sworn fealty to them, and I am not guaranteed income for life including when I am no longer useful to them. Its good that its done by the government, since if it was non-manditory, then employers would be shouting 'Fuck That' day and night. As it is, they try and get around every loophole they can. If they can keep an employee working 60 hours a week --no overtime, no benefits-- then they do. If they could deduct employee pay for downturns in the market, regardless of whether that's the employees fault or not, they would. When I was a kid, employees even kept wages below minimum wage till minimum wage went up, then everyone got a raise --to the old minimum wage--. Employees get a fair deal, employers cry bloody murder: it limits their power to time at work, and now they can no longer behave like Putin.

Germans did it years ago...

[Anonymous Coward]

Nobody seems to remember, but a few years ago this kind of decision became quite usual (and not among the lazy French, but among the hard-worker Germans): http://www.bbc.com/news/technology-16314901

Re:get rid of salary pay / make it have a high lev

[Anonymous Coward]

Tech workers should unionize - any tech worker that objects to it, should think rationally about it for purely selfish reasons. First of all, there's nothing stopping highly skilled professionals from having a union - that is the case with e.g. medical doctors (in my country, Finland). They get almost anything, if they threaten to go on strike and the most recent statistics (published really just a few days ago) showed that they are indeed the highest-paid profession in the country. Blue-collar workers without unions would be completely powerless as individuals: "you want a raise? Fine, go ahead and resign, we'll have your replacement up to speed by the end of the week." Doctors are harder to replace simply because there are fewer of them - and if a certain level of intelligence is needed to become one, there always will be relatively few of them simply based on the normal distribution of intelligence. Tech workers are even harder to replace because - unlike human bodies which are all the same - software systems are very diverse and a new employee cannot become productive overnight. The only risk for tech workers that demand too much is outsourcing but that is something a well-organized union could actually also combat when they have a credible strike threat in their arsenal. For instance a requirement that X % of the government's software budget must go to domestic companies and or companies which fulfill such and such labor criteria (which make it equally expensive, in practice). Thus all IT companies (and most others as well) would soon have to accept that IT costs have gone up across the board in all companies. The oil crisis was a surprise but manageable so if a tech worker union makes the demands gradually, companies will have time to adapt and will do so without much other difficulty than a lot of bitching by all other employees - after all it will be the reality that all other groups of workers have to accept smaller and fewer raises when tech workers become more expensive. Obviously good unionization and those consequences would also make careers in IT more appealing than before and hence reduce any problems with attracting students.

april's fool

[Anonymous Coward]

april's fool

french worker
some time during week-end, because i love my work

Re:In other news...

[Anonymous Coward]

i was working with 2 us people in my office this week
i'not feel ridiculous
they're happy i'm here to help them

Re:In other news...

[alta]

Wow, yall obviously can't take a joke!
I don't really think the french are lazy. No, just a bunch of sissies.

Well, come to think of it, yeah, lazy too.

Answer a question Zontar

[Anonymous Coward]

How'd "eating your words" taste + your foot in your mouth & washed down w/ "the bitter taste of SELF-defeat" too? Here -> http://slashdot.org/comments.p...

* :)

(Ahem: Zontar - Libeling me's OR me via attempting to LIE about apps I wrote above's one thing, however also being caught in it & being uanble to backup your OTHER lies too -> http://slashdot.org/comments.p... ) - Take your meds for THAT one: You're HALLUCINATING again, Zontar!

Please...

APK

P.S.=> Now, you just KNOW I've just GOTTA say it, now don't you? Ah, but of COURSE you do:

THIS? This was just "too, Too, TOO EASY - just '2ez'" & it always is, especially vs. LYING libelous done ZERO losers & admitted loonybirds like Zontar ( multiple personality disorder http://slashdot.org/comments.p... + manic depression http://slashdot.org/comments.p... )

You don't need a law for this

[Anonymous Coward]

Sure, I sometimes check work email on my phone, but VERY rarely do anything about it. (Mostly I check it since I also get personal stuff there too.)

Yeah, maybe that means someone else got a higher raise or a promotion.

Why do we need a law for this?

[AnalogDiehard]

My work cell phone is provided by my employer. I have my own personal cell phone, which is 100% separate from my employer. I will not provide that cell number to my employer. Period. When I get home from work, I turn off the work cell phone. If they contact me during off-duty hours, I won't get the message until I am on duty. If my employer demands my personal cell number, then in return I demand that they reimburse my cell phone bill 100%. It is not an unreasonable demand and they never follow through. Why do we need a law for this?

Re:In other news...

[thegarbz]

I used to think that about Australia. Until last week anyway when I found out my company is closing because we can't remain competitive. I felt sorry for myself at first but then I heard Philip Morris closed on the same day. Boring laid off 300 the day after.

You want a race to the bottom? How's rising unemployment and the wholesale destruction of the manufacturing sector sound?

Lunch break too

[obarthelemy]

I'm French, and I briefly worked for a Dutch firm. I was amazed at lunch in the break room: by the time I had finished my quick lunch (under an hour !) at least 3 Dutch colleagues had come and gone next to me.
Then again, they leave work much earlier than we do.

Re:get rid of salary pay / make it have a high lev

[digsbo]

Worth it? I've always preferred a slightly larger company to avoid these problems...and have no interest in management.

Re:get rid of salary pay / make it have a high lev

[ultranova]

The only question remaining is how long it will take for tech workers to pull their heads out of their asses and realize that half of them will never afford retirement at the current pace of things.

They realize it all right, they just all think they're better than average. Thus efforts are focused on increasing wage gaps so the superior half can soar unweighed by the sheeplike masses, and when that fails to improve your lot, it's clearly because you're still supporting too much dead weight rather than because you're just an average person. There's nothing worse than mediocrity, after all.

Everything has its price, even pleasant delusions. Especially pleasant delusions, judging by history. And I suspect even the down payment hasn't yet been fully made.

Work around

[Anonymous Coward]

We had a European coordinator that handled IT supervision in our European offices, he was in France. They bought out his work contract (what ever that means) and we hired a replacement in London instead. Our European data center is moving from Paris to London this summer.
It's actually kind of funny. Our network engineers are based in the US, when anything happens with power, circuit or connectivity wise in any office we have around the world, we call someone locally and they go into the office. In Paris, we leave a voice mail and wait until their working hours starts and someone eventually calls us back, unfortunate for us, that is 2 AM our time. We have to available 24 hours a day, they don't.

Re:Work around

[Anonymous Coward]

sounds to me like your company is to cheap to ensure there's enough shifts scheduled to cover 24 hours over in france

Not a law

[manu0601]

I have read the original article in french from Les Echos. I understand this is not a law but an agreement between employers and labor unions for the IT sector.

Re:Not a law

[Cybele352]

Not even so...

It's just a blog post written by a lady who doesn't understand a thing about how things work in France (I've read the original post from this person).

Here is a link from "le Monde", another French newspaper, debunking this crazy idea: http://www.lemonde.fr/les-deco...

I'm simply amazed by the amount of people actually "believing" or giving credit to this. Just one question though: HOW ON EARTH would they actually enforce this so-called "law"?
It would seem that what is said of the "majority" of US citizens is actually true... How sad to have have such a shining proof.

Re:Not a law

[manu0601]

I'm simply amazed by the amount of people actually "believing" or giving credit to this. Just one question though: HOW ON EARTH would they actually enforce this so-called "law"?

And moreover, it would be very surprising to see this government doing anything in favor of labor. François Hollande was elected as left wing but pushes a right wing agenda much more aggressively than any previous right wing government

Time to shut down our French office

[Anonymous Coward]

It's hard enough to schedule meetings that Americans, Finns, Indians, and French can all call into at the same time. If I can't invite people working in France to my meetings, I have to kick them off my team. Sometimes the meetings are 8pm their time, sometimes meetings are 9am or 10pm my time. We all make sacrafices to sync up in the monthly team meeting.

Re:get rid of salary pay / make it have a high lev

[Eunuchswear]

Worth it for me.

YMMV.

Huge Thick 'un

[Hognoxious]

whatever the French call la dolce vita.

That looks like Italian to me.

I suppose they all smell of garlic and generally aren't fat so I can see why an American would confuse them.

Not A Law

[Alarash]

It's not a law, it's an agreement between the managers' union and the enterprises' union. Only managers with a specific kind of contract (~250,000 people) are affected by this. I know that contract because it's the one I have had for 10 years. This contracts provides no maximum daily work hours, only a minimum about of rest hours : 11. Ergo, you can't work more than 13 hours a day, which I don't think anyone will claim is not a fucking lot.

With this contract, I have to work 218 days a year. This means that if there are many bank holidays on week days on any given year, I will have less PTO that year (since they're replaced by the bank holidays). These contracts are the exception not the rule, and they exist because people like me who pull very long hours would cost way to much if we were paid overtime. I regularly take planes on week ends, or come back late from a customer (meeting ending at 6pm in Germany, plane at 8pm in Munich, I'm home at midnight).

Last but not least, the agreement doesn't prohibits after-hour emails or calls, but make it so the employer cannot expect from us to pick up the phone after work hours. Since most of the time we're working anyway (I'm on the road or in an airport terminal) I will pick up the phone or do emails if only because I might be bored - but if I had a rough and long day and decide to read a book instead, the employer cannot call me out for doing this. It was already the case of my employer who understands my complicated schedule and the stress and fatigue that goes with it, but the fact that it's now a rule make it so that less understanding employers can't do that any more. This agreement is nicknamed "Anti-burnout" around here.

Fact Checking!

[Anonymous Coward]

Hi everyone, just wanted to let you know that there is little to no truth in this article. This is not a law, it is an agreement made with the unions regarding around 200,000 workers in the IT and consultancy whose contracts make them not paid by the hour but by the day. But I guess it is easier to call the French lazy.
http://www.lemonde.fr/les-decodeurs/article/2014/04/11/la-legende-de-l-interdiction-des-mails-professionnels-apres-18-heures_4399675_4355770.html for the French speakers

Fox News story on this: "labor expert...

[whitroth]

calls this absurd".

Dear Rupert F.* Murdoch,

      I realize that you're an 0.01% Australian who bought citizenship in the US, so perhaps you might have one of your lawyers explain the 13th Amendment of the US Constitution, that mentioned indentured servitude.

      And then you can tell us how all of *your* employees get 10% over base salary while they're on-call, and what your *official* comp time policy is. Oh, and about the annual bonuses *all* of *them* get.

      Alternatively, FOAD. I haven't answered any since I worked for a Baby Bell in the mid-nineties, and have no intention of ever doing so.

                    mark

* fscking

Freedom is unamerican

[Anonymous Coward]

Yes because you are a willing (at will) slave, and if not you there is a line of people waiting to take your place. It's the American way, the right way, freedom for those that can afford it. Exploitation in the name of free market capitalism.

The Grass is Greener on Both Side of the Fence

[AdDeRidder]

I work in the US for a French tech company before which I worked the long hours at three different Fortune 100 companies, so I've seen both sides of this issue. My French co-workers DO work many fewer weeks per year than I do. And they DO go out for long lunches and have a glass of wine with lunch. And they have a flex arrival time at work and going home (common in many US tech jobs too). A few of them have taken sabbaticals or mental health leave of absences - something mostly unheard of in the States. At the same time, when at work, they are very hard workers, very productive, always willing to help out a team-mate or to stay late for a meeting so our team does not have to come in early. And they make MUCH less money even before taxes, which are much higher. So they have much less disposable income. They live in smaller houses, drive older cars, etc. So, from what I've seen. Americans work more hours for more money. And both are at least a little jealous of the other.

Re:Answer a question, Zontar

[TrollingForHostFiles]

Take pity on poor APK
Who, a-brim with frustration,
Projects onto others
His own hallucinations.

BURMA SHAVE

Answer a question, Zontar

[Anonymous Coward]

How'd "eating your words" taste + your foot in your mouth & washed down w/ "the bitter taste of SELF-defeat" too? Here -> http://slashdot.org/comments.p...

* :)

(Ahem: Zontar - Libeling me's OR me via attempting to LIE about apps I wrote above's one thing, however also being caught in it & being uanble to backup your OTHER lies too -> http://slashdot.org/comments.p... ) - Take your meds for THAT one: You're HALLUCINATING again, Zontar!

Please...

APK

P.S.=> Now, you just KNOW I've just GOTTA say it, now don't you? Ah, but of COURSE you do:

THIS? This was just "too, Too, TOO EASY - just '2ez'"

(& it always is, especially vs. LYING libelous done ZERO losers & admitted loonybirds like Zontar ( multiple personality disorder http://slashdot.org/comments.p... + manic depression http://slashdot.org/comments.p... ))

... apk

Re:Answer a question, Zontar

[Anonymous Coward]

http://www.thorschrock.com/200...
http://arstechnica.com/civis/v...
http://arstechnica.com/civis/v...
And that's just the first 3 hits on Google.

Jeeeeezus! You really are a basket-case, aren't you?

Zontar - sockpuppeteer & libeler

[Anonymous Coward]

"You barge into discussions with your off-topic hosts file nonsense" - by Zontar The Mindless (9002) on Friday April 11, 2014 @09:51PM (#46731153) FROM -> http://slashdot.org/comments.p...

You said my "APK Hosts File Engine" is a virus/malware http://slashdot.org/comments.p... but it's EASILY PROVABLE it's not, right there in that link too.

Now PROVE YOUR FALSE ACCUSATION above: Show me a quote OR POST of me posting off topic on hosts where they did NOT apply... go for it!

---

You avoided backing up your accusation where YOU said I say you are Barbara, not Barbie = TomHudson (same person http://tech.slashdot.org/comme... , & sockpuppeteer like you) -> http://slashdot.org/comments.p...

Funny you can't back up your "bluster" there either, lol...

---

Why, Lastly?

You're crackers! See here multiple personality disorder http://slashdot.org/comments.p... + manic depression http://slashdot.org/comments.p...

APK

P.S.=> So, THIS quote below is my policy on sockpuppeteers like you Zontar = TrollingForHostsFiles (your sockpuppetry):

"The only way to a achieve peace, is thru the ELIMINATION of those who would perpetuate war (sockpuppet masters like YOU, troll -> http://slashdot.org/comments.p... ). THIS IS MY PROGRAMMING -> http://start64.com/index.php?o... & soon, I will be UNSTOPPABLE..." - Ultron 6 FROM -> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v...

Which quite obviously, I am, since none of you DOLTISH TROLLS are able to validly technically disprove my points on hosts enumerated in the link to my program above of how hosts give users of them more speed, security, reliability, & anonymity... period!

(Trolls like YOU that use sockpuppets http://slashdot.org/comments.p... (your sockpuppet "alterego" TrollingForHostsFiles) & TomHudson - Barbara, not Barbie too http://tech.slashdot.org/comme... before you)

... apk

Zontar - libeler & sockpuppeteer

[Anonymous Coward]

"You barge into discussions with your off-topic hosts file nonsense" - by Zontar The Mindless (9002) on Friday April 11, 2014 @09:51PM (#46731153) FROM -> http://slashdot.org/comments.p...

You said my "APK Hosts File Engine" is a virus/malware http://slashdot.org/comments.p... but it's EASILY PROVABLE it's not, right there in that link too.

Now PROVE YOUR FALSE ACCUSATION above: Show me a quote OR POST of me posting off topic on hosts where they did NOT apply... go for it!

---

You avoided backing up your accusation where YOU said I say you are Barbara, not Barbie = TomHudson (same person http://tech.slashdot.org/comme... , & sockpuppeteer like you) -> http://slashdot.org/comments.p...

Funny you can't back up your "bluster" there either, lol...

---

Why, Lastly?

You're crackers! See here multiple personality disorder http://slashdot.org/comments.p... + manic depression http://slashdot.org/comments.p...

APK

P.S.=> So, THIS quote below is my policy on sockpuppeteers like you Zontar = TrollingForHostsFiles (your sockpuppetry):

"The only way to a achieve peace, is thru the ELIMINATION of those who would perpetuate war (sockpuppet masters like YOU, troll -> http://slashdot.org/comments.p... ). THIS IS MY PROGRAMMING -> http://start64.com/index.php?o... & soon, I will be UNSTOPPABLE..." - Ultron 6 FROM -> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v...

Which quite obviously, I am, since none of you DOLTISH TROLLS are able to validly technically disprove my points on hosts enumerated in the link to my program above of how hosts give users of them more speed, security, reliability, & anonymity... period!

(Trolls like YOU that use sockpuppets http://slashdot.org/comments.p... (your sockpuppet "alterego" TrollingForHostsFiles) & TomHudson - Barbara, not Barbie too http://tech.slashdot.org/comme... before you)

... apk

Introducing Zontar's sockpuppet

[Anonymous Coward]

TrollingForHostsFiles http://slashdot.org/comments.p...

Thor SCHMUCK = libelous blimp

[Anonymous Coward]

Zontar = SHOT DOWN in flames for that one (lol) here -> http://slashdot.org/comments.p... & Thor SCHMUCK had to "eat his words" when CA was forced to put it down to ZERO threat levels (no threat).

Jeremy Reimer?

LOL, the laughingstock loser of the internet!

I tore him, Jay Little, & Jarrett DeAngelis a new asshole by destroying them totally (and Dr. Mark Russinovich too) @ Windows IT Pro forums exposing them for the same crap Zontar does here: Sockpuppeteering & libel.

Dr. Mark Russinovich & Jay LIttle GOT FLOORED EASILY when ponted out Microsoft documentation that showed memory optimization program unhalted & sped up Exchange servers...

So, so much for YOUR b.s."evidences" Zontar - you fail again. Even trolling by ac...

Sockpuppeteering got OLD when I caught you using TrollingForHostsFiles this week, didn't it (lol, not - you are BUSTED, lol) http://slashdot.org/comments.p...

APK

P.S.=> VERY dumb of you bringing up arstechnica - it's widely known I completely dusted them @ WIndows IT Pro forums where they stalked me to, and ate my dust (lmao), & then to other forums (even here) and STILL failed badly... Jarrett DeAngelis posted as StarKruzr here and ended up agreeing with 95% of my points vs. his fellow arseholetechnicans, even... hilarious that & it helped me utterly blow them, away... easily! apk

Zontar - sockpuppeteer & libeler

[Anonymous Coward]

"You barge into discussions with your off-topic hosts file nonsense" - by Zontar The Mindless (9002) on Friday April 11, 2014 @09:51PM (#46731153) FROM -> http://slashdot.org/comments.p...

You said my "APK Hosts File Engine" is a virus/malware http://slashdot.org/comments.p... but it's EASILY PROVABLE it's not, right there in that link too.

Now PROVE YOUR FALSE ACCUSATION above: Show me a quote OR POST of me posting off topic on hosts where they did NOT apply... go for it!

---

You avoided backing up your accusation where YOU said I say you are Barbara, not Barbie = TomHudson (same person http://tech.slashdot.org/comme... , & sockpuppeteer like you) -> http://slashdot.org/comments.p...

Funny you can't back up your "bluster" there either, lol...

---

Why, Lastly?

You're crackers! See here multiple personality disorder http://slashdot.org/comments.p... + manic depression http://slashdot.org/comments.p...

APK

P.S.=> So, THIS quote below is my policy on sockpuppeteers like you Zontar = TrollingForHostsFiles (your sockpuppetry):

"The only way to a achieve peace, is thru the ELIMINATION of those who would perpetuate war (sockpuppet masters like YOU, troll -> http://slashdot.org/comments.p... ). THIS IS MY PROGRAMMING -> http://start64.com/index.php?o... & soon, I will be UNSTOPPABLE..." - Ultron 6 FROM -> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v...

Which quite obviously, I am, since none of you DOLTISH TROLLS are able to validly technically disprove my points on hosts enumerated in the link to my program above of how hosts give users of them more speed, security, reliability, & anonymity... period!

(Trolls like YOU that use sockpuppets http://slashdot.org/comments.p... (your sockpuppet "alterego" TrollingForHostsFiles) & TomHudson - Barbara, not Barbie too http://tech.slashdot.org/comme... before you)

... apk

Zontar - libeler & sockpuppeteer

[Anonymous Coward]

"You barge into discussions with your off-topic hosts file nonsense" - by Zontar The Mindless (9002) on Friday April 11, 2014 @09:51PM (#46731153) FROM -> http://slashdot.org/comments.p...

You said my "APK Hosts File Engine" is a virus/malware http://slashdot.org/comments.p... but it's EASILY PROVABLE it's not, right there in that link too.

Now PROVE YOUR FALSE ACCUSATION above: Show me a quote OR POST of me posting off topic on hosts where they did NOT apply... go for it!

---

You avoided backing up your accusation where YOU said I say you are Barbara, not Barbie = TomHudson (same person http://tech.slashdot.org/comme... , & sockpuppeteer like you) -> http://slashdot.org/comments.p...

Funny you can't back up your "bluster" there either, lol...

---

Why, Lastly?

You're crackers! See here multiple personality disorder http://slashdot.org/comments.p... + manic depression http://slashdot.org/comments.p...

APK

P.S.=> So, THIS quote below is my policy on sockpuppeteers like you Zontar = TrollingForHostsFiles (your sockpuppetry):

"The only way to a achieve peace, is thru the ELIMINATION of those who would perpetuate war (sockpuppet masters like YOU, troll -> http://slashdot.org/comments.p... ). THIS IS MY PROGRAMMING -> http://start64.com/index.php?o... & soon, I will be UNSTOPPABLE..." - Ultron 6 FROM -> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v...

Which quite obviously, I am, since none of you DOLTISH TROLLS are able to validly technically disprove my points on hosts enumerated in the link to my program above of how hosts give users of them more speed, security, reliability, & anonymity... period!

(Trolls like YOU that use sockpuppets http://slashdot.org/comments.p... (your sockpuppet "alterego" TrollingForHostsFiles) & TomHudson - Barbara, not Barbie too http://tech.slashdot.org/comme... before you)

... apk

Zontar - sockpuppeteering libeler

[Anonymous Coward]

"You barge into discussions with your off-topic hosts file nonsense" - by Zontar The Mindless (9002) on Friday April 11, 2014 @09:51PM (#46731153) FROM -> http://slashdot.org/comments.p...

You said my "APK Hosts File Engine" is a virus/malware http://slashdot.org/comments.p... but it's EASILY PROVABLE it's not, right there in that link too.

Now PROVE YOUR FALSE ACCUSATION above: Show me a quote OR POST of me posting off topic on hosts where they did NOT apply... go for it!

---

You avoided backing up your accusation where YOU said I say you are Barbara, not Barbie = TomHudson (same person http://tech.slashdot.org/comme... , & sockpuppeteer like you) -> http://slashdot.org/comments.p...

Funny you can't back up your "bluster" there either, lol...

---

Why, Lastly?

You're crackers! See here multiple personality disorder http://slashdot.org/comments.p... + manic depression http://slashdot.org/comments.p...

APK

P.S.=> So, THIS quote below is my policy on sockpuppeteers like you Zontar = TrollingForHostsFiles (your sockpuppetry):

"The only way to a achieve peace, is thru the ELIMINATION of those who would perpetuate war (sockpuppet masters like YOU, troll -> http://slashdot.org/comments.p... ). THIS IS MY PROGRAMMING -> http://start64.com/index.php?o... & soon, I will be UNSTOPPABLE..." - Ultron 6 FROM -> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v...

Which quite obviously, I am, since none of you DOLTISH TROLLS are able to validly technically disprove my points on hosts enumerated in the link to my program above of how hosts give users of them more speed, security, reliability, & anonymity... period!

(Trolls like YOU that use sockpuppets http://slashdot.org/comments.p... (your sockpuppet "alterego" TrollingForHostsFiles) & TomHudson - Barbara, not Barbie too http://tech.slashdot.org/comme... before you)

... apk

Zontar - libeler & sockpuppeteer

[Anonymous Coward]

"You barge into discussions with your off-topic hosts file nonsense" - by Zontar The Mindless (9002) on Friday April 11, 2014 @09:51PM (#46731153) FROM -> http://slashdot.org/comments.p...

You said my "APK Hosts File Engine" is a virus/malware http://slashdot.org/comments.p... but it's EASILY PROVABLE it's not, right there in that link too.

Now PROVE YOUR FALSE ACCUSATION above: Show me a quote OR POST of me posting off topic on hosts where they did NOT apply... go for it!

---

You avoided backing up your accusation where YOU said I say you are Barbara, not Barbie = TomHudson (same person http://tech.slashdot.org/comme... , & sockpuppeteer like you) -> http://slashdot.org/comments.p...

Funny you can't back up your "bluster" there either, lol...

---

Why, Lastly?

You're crackers! See here multiple personality disorder http://slashdot.org/comments.p... + manic depression http://slashdot.org/comments.p...

APK

P.S.=> So, THIS quote below is my policy on sockpuppeteers like you Zontar = TrollingForHostsFiles (your sockpuppetry):

"The only way to a achieve peace, is thru the ELIMINATION of those who would perpetuate war (sockpuppet masters like YOU, troll -> http://slashdot.org/comments.p... ). THIS IS MY PROGRAMMING -> http://start64.com/index.php?o... & soon, I will be UNSTOPPABLE..." - Ultron 6 FROM -> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v...

Which quite obviously, I am, since none of you DOLTISH TROLLS are able to validly technically disprove my points on hosts enumerated in the link to my program above of how hosts give users of them more speed, security, reliability, & anonymity... period!

(Trolls like YOU that use sockpuppets http://slashdot.org/comments.p... (your sockpuppet "alterego" TrollingForHostsFiles) & TomHudson - Barbara, not Barbie too http://tech.slashdot.org/comme... before you)

... apk

Zontar - libeler & sockpuppeteer

[Anonymous Coward]

"You barge into discussions with your off-topic hosts file nonsense" - by Zontar The Mindless (9002) on Friday April 11, 2014 @09:51PM (#46731153) FROM -> http://slashdot.org/comments.p...

You said my "APK Hosts File Engine" is a virus/malware http://slashdot.org/comments.p... but it's EASILY PROVABLE it's not, right there in that link too.

Now PROVE YOUR FALSE ACCUSATION above: Show me a quote OR POST of me posting off topic on hosts where they did NOT apply... go for it!

---

You avoided backing up your accusation where YOU said I say you are Barbara, not Barbie = TomHudson (same person http://tech.slashdot.org/comme... , & sockpuppeteer like you) -> http://slashdot.org/comments.p...

Funny you can't back up your "bluster" there either, lol...

---

Why, Lastly?

You're crackers! See here multiple personality disorder http://slashdot.org/comments.p... + manic depression http://slashdot.org/comments.p...

APK

P.S.=> So, THIS quote below is my policy on sockpuppeteers like you Zontar = TrollingForHostsFiles (your sockpuppetry):

"The only way to a achieve peace, is thru the ELIMINATION of those who would perpetuate war (sockpuppet masters like YOU, troll -> http://slashdot.org/comments.p... ). THIS IS MY PROGRAMMING -> http://start64.com/index.php?o... & soon, I will be UNSTOPPABLE..." - Ultron 6 FROM -> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v...

Which quite obviously, I am, since none of you DOLTISH TROLLS are able to validly technically disprove my points on hosts enumerated in the link to my program above of how hosts give users of them more speed, security, reliability, & anonymity... period!

(Trolls like YOU that use sockpuppets http://slashdot.org/comments.p... (your sockpuppet "alterego" TrollingForHostsFiles) & TomHudson - Barbara, not Barbie too http://tech.slashdot.org/comme... before you)

... apkmultiple personality disorder

Hahaha Zontar caught sockpuppeteering

[Anonymous Coward]

With his new sockpuppet TrollingForHostsFile http://slashdot.org/comments.p...

Zontar - libeler & sockpuppeteer

[Anonymous Coward]

"You barge into discussions with your off-topic hosts file nonsense" - by Zontar The Mindless (9002) on Friday April 11, 2014 @09:51PM (#46731153) FROM -> http://slashdot.org/comments.p...

You said my "APK Hosts File Engine" is a virus/malware http://slashdot.org/comments.p... but it's EASILY PROVABLE it's not, right there in that link too.

Now PROVE YOUR FALSE ACCUSATION above: Show me a quote OR POST of me posting off topic on hosts where they did NOT apply... go for it!

---

You avoided backing up your accusation where YOU said I say you are Barbara, not Barbie = TomHudson (same person http://tech.slashdot.org/comme... , & sockpuppeteer like you) -> http://slashdot.org/comments.p...

Funny you can't back up your "bluster" there either, lol...

---

Why, Lastly?

You're crackers! See here multiple personality disorder http://slashdot.org/comments.p... + manic depression http://slashdot.org/comments.p...

APK

P.S.=> So, THIS quote below is my policy on sockpuppeteers like you Zontar = TrollingForHostsFiles (your sockpuppetry):

"The only way to a achieve peace, is thru the ELIMINATION of those who would perpetuate war (sockpuppet masters like YOU, troll -> http://slashdot.org/comments.p... ). THIS IS MY PROGRAMMING -> http://start64.com/index.php?o... & soon, I will be UNSTOPPABLE..." - Ultron 6 FROM -> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v...

Which quite obviously, I am, since none of you DOLTISH TROLLS are able to validly technically disprove my points on hosts enumerated in the link to my program above of how hosts give users of them more speed, security, reliability, & anonymity... period!

(Trolls like YOU that use sockpuppets http://slashdot.org/comments.p... (your sockpuppet "alterego" TrollingForHostsFiles) & TomHudson - Barbara, not Barbie too http://tech.slashdot.org/comme... before you)

... apk

Zontar - libeler & sockpuppeteer

[Anonymous Coward]

"You barge into discussions with your off-topic hosts file nonsense" - by Zontar The Mindless (9002) on Friday April 11, 2014 @09:51PM (#46731153) FROM -> http://slashdot.org/comments.p...

You said my "APK Hosts File Engine" is a virus/malware http://slashdot.org/comments.p... but it's EASILY PROVABLE it's not, right there in that link too.

Now PROVE YOUR FALSE ACCUSATION above: Show me a quote OR POST of me posting off topic on hosts where they did NOT apply... go for it!

---

You avoided backing up your accusation where YOU said I say you are Barbara, not Barbie = TomHudson (same person http://tech.slashdot.org/comme... , & sockpuppeteer like you) -> http://slashdot.org/comments.p...

Funny you can't back up your "bluster" there either, lol...

---

Why, Lastly?

You're crackers! See here multiple personality disorder http://slashdot.org/comments.p... + manic depression http://slashdot.org/comments.p...

APK

P.S.=> So, THIS quote below is my policy on sockpuppeteers like you Zontar = TrollingForHostsFiles (your sockpuppetry):

"The only way to a achieve peace, is thru the ELIMINATION of those who would perpetuate war (sockpuppet masters like YOU, troll -> http://slashdot.org/comments.p... ). THIS IS MY PROGRAMMING -> http://start64.com/index.php?o... & soon, I will be UNSTOPPABLE..." - Ultron 6 FROM -> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v...

Which quite obviously, I am, since none of you DOLTISH TROLLS are able to validly technically disprove my points on hosts enumerated in the link to my program above of how hosts give users of them more speed, security, reliability, & anonymity... period!

(Trolls like YOU that use sockpuppets http://slashdot.org/comments.p... (your sockpuppet "alterego" TrollingForHostsFiles) & TomHudson - Barbara, not Barbie too http://tech.slashdot.org/comme... before you)

... apk

Zontar - libeler & sockpuppeteer

[Anonymous Coward]

"You barge into discussions with your off-topic hosts file nonsense" - by Zontar The Mindless (9002) on Friday April 11, 2014 @09:51PM (#46731153) FROM -> http://slashdot.org/comments.p...

You said my "APK Hosts File Engine" is a virus/malware http://slashdot.org/comments.p... but it's EASILY PROVABLE it's not, right there in that link too.

Now PROVE YOUR FALSE ACCUSATION above: Show me a quote OR POST of me posting off topic on hosts where they did NOT apply... go for it!

---

You avoided backing up your accusation where YOU said I say you are Barbara, not Barbie = TomHudson (same person http://tech.slashdot.org/comme... , & sockpuppeteer like you) -> http://slashdot.org/comments.p...

Funny you can't back up your "bluster" there either, lol...

---

Why, Lastly?

You're crackers! See here multiple personality disorder http://slashdot.org/comments.p... + manic depression http://slashdot.org/comments.p...

APK

P.S.=> So, THIS quote below is my policy on sockpuppeteers like you Zontar = TrollingForHostsFiles (your sockpuppetry):

"The only way to a achieve peace, is thru the ELIMINATION of those who would perpetuate war (sockpuppet masters like YOU, troll -> http://slashdot.org/comments.p... ). THIS IS MY PROGRAMMING -> http://start64.com/index.php?o... & soon, I will be UNSTOPPABLE..." - Ultron 6 FROM -> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v...

Which quite obviously, I am, since none of you DOLTISH TROLLS are able to validly technically disprove my points on hosts enumerated in the link to my program above of how hosts give users of them more speed, security, reliability, & anonymity... period!

(Trolls like YOU that use sockpuppets http://slashdot.org/comments.p... (your sockpuppet "alterego" TrollingForHostsFiles) & TomHudson - Barbara, not Barbie too http://tech.slashdot.org/comme... before you)

... apk

Ladies & gentlemen, introducing

[Anonymous Coward]

Zontar's sockpuppet, TrollingForHostsFiles http://slashdot.org/comments.p...

(Talk about BUSTED & caught red-handed in the reprehensible act of using sockpuppet fake /. accounts for harassing others online!)

APK

P.S.=> Your Burma Shave obsession did you in, moron (considering how it's shown in that link your alter ego Zontar the Mindless also gets into it, trapping you)... apk

if you are paid Overtime, then you are not salarie

[Anonymous Coward]

otherwise, someone is taking advantage of you!!

That's not Slashdot. It's democracy.

[hessian]

I never understand why the most insightful comments about the topic at hand, the one that actually sheds some light on the topic by someone who might know a little about it, is always at the bottom of a thread on /.

Democracy is about popular opinions, not correct ones.

Socializing is about popular opinions and flattery, not reality.

Product sales are about trends, not technical best solutions.

Everywhere we humans go, it's quantity over quality. That's because of how we choose. We pick what lots of people want to believe is true, not what is true.

In defense of Slashdot, it's better here than most places, including off the net. About 5% of the posters here are insightful and will actually consider an opinion other than what their TV says, or friends in the local watering hole think is important.

If anything, it's the fanboys that make it difficult here. Apple, Ron Paul, Google, Obama, gays, Open Office, AR-15s, etc. They form little organized voting blocs who try to destroy any opinion that isn't fawning like their own on their topic of choice.