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Ask Slashdot: How To Start With Linux In the Workplace?
An anonymous reader writes "Recently my boss has asked me about the advantages of Linux as a desktop operating system and if it would be a good idea to install it instead of upgrading to Windows 7 or 8. About ten boxes here are still running Windows XP and would be too old to upgrade to any newer version of Windows. He knows that i am using Linux at work on quite outdated hardware (would have gotten a new PC but never requested new hardware — Linux Mint x64 runs quite well on it) and i always managed to get my stuff done with it. I explained to him that there are no licensing issues with Linux, there is no anti-virus software to deal with and that Linux is generally a bit more efficient on old hardware than operating systems from Microsoft. The boss seems interested." But that's not quite the end; read on for this reader's question.
"Since I am the only guy with Linux experience I would have to support the Linux installations. Now the problem is what works perfectly fine for me may be a horrible experience for some of my coworkers, and even if they would only be using Firefox, Thunderbird and LibreOffice I don't know if I could seriously recommend using Linux as a desktop OS in a business. Instead I want to set up one test machine for users to try it and ask THEM if they like it. The test machine should be as easy and painless to use as possible and not look too different compared to Windows. Which distro and what configuration should I choose for this demo box?"
KDE can be configured to look identical to windows.
This story says it's from the "sounds like Mint works for you" department, and I think that's your answer. If you're going to have to look after them, then it makes sense to go with what you're most familiar with, especially as Mint shouldn't be too alien to XP users.
employment is only income if your time is worthless
Every new version of Windows doesn't look like the last, so why does it matter?
You don't even say what the fuck your company does or even what industry you're in and expect to get meaningful advice on what desktops the employees should use?
I would recommend plain ol' Ubuntu since, imho, they have made the most polished Linux desktop experience for those with no prior linux experience. If you're worried that Unity may be sensory overload for some of your users -- consider installing Xubuntu and doing a little customization to give it the same general feel that your user's XP desktop would have.
If you are going to be responsible for supporting it, make sure you know the distro/UI/whatever before you put it out there to let others try it.
That warning said, I find LXDE to be the least obnoxious Linux GUI that I have tried. It has the now-standard Microsoft-style task bar options, and has yet to decide it needs 95% of my system resources to draw an empty desktop (I'll leave out which UI was the resource hog because I know others will defend it to my death).
Haven't looked at Mint, but if you think it's too different for your co-workers, it probably is.
Not sure why they'd be trying so hard to save themselves from buying new PCs.. Probably the XP machines run like ass as it is. Linux as a general use machine for people that are so bad at computers they still use XP.... just no.. hell no. tell the boss to stop being so cheap and upgrade to this decade
You will save yourself a lot of trouble by migrating the backend (servers, database) to linux first, and only then start on the frontend (workstations, user interface). You will also enjoy a larger benefit immediately, as the backend is where linux will really save you time and effort (once you have it configured).
The thing is, Windows 7 also runs great on older hardware. I just put it on a Hp ZE2000 from 2005, which isn't at all a powerful machine and it is running smoothly and very stable.
Something like Ubuntu won't run much better (Although Xubuntu or Lubuntu may well), and AV software is not the concern it was back in the day. The free MS Security essentials and a gateway check will be more than enough.
The real issue is software. Can the users rely on LibreOffice and Chrome/Firefox? Or is there windows software they rely on or will need?
Go with what makes sense according to needs and cost restrictions, not because of an ideology....
If you ignore ACs because they are anonymous - you're an idiot.
[url=http://lubuntu.net/]lubuntu[/url] is pretty lightweight, and looks pretty similar to windows as far as I can tell. Plus, it's all Ubuntu under the hood (for better or for worse). You know you'll have updates for a looong time coming.
In my experience it's much easier to get Linux in the workplace as a server, and here there's lots of areas where it's as good as or better than Windows. Start with a LAMP server for internal web; use it to host a Wiki for documentation.
Finding God in a Dog
If I were you, I would go with Linux Mint. I really like cinnamon, and it's pretty user friendly; it's also a lot nicer to use than the abortion that is the unity desktop. I'm using the debian edition of Linux Mint 64 and it's nice to not have to deal with linux release cycles.
:-P
Before using linux mint, i was using debian 6. Stopped with deb 7 because of the unity desktop nonsense. Debian is really great otherwise, but might be a little annoying for new users.
Whatever distro you use, I would definitely use one that maintains the traditional desktop paradigm of a start(ish) menu with programs and a customizable desktop with icons that launch files and programs, etc.
The only reason I use Linux at work is becuase all of the software that only happens to run under RHEL, and even so, it might not be supported on the latests versions.
I am talking about Cadence, Synopsys, Ansoft, MatLab suites.
You cannot force anyone an OS unless they have the right software for their jobs.
They are employees .. so they do what they are told to do by their boss.
Now developing a proper business case for your boos to show that you have considered all of the angles (installation, administration, education, usage and changeover issues) , and how that affects the bottom line is a totally different question.
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Interoperability between LibreOffice and Microsoft Office is less than ideal in my opinion. You will always run into some issues, with references, equations, fonts, something. If Linux has all of the software you need to get the job done, then go for it. If you still use programs for Windows, using a VM or dual booting is not worth it in my opinion, better off staying with Windows. If you do go Linux it is better to go full force: change over everyone. Have everyone use LibreOffice and make .odt, .ods, etc standard for your workplace. You should have minimal problems.
Do not recommend Linux to someone if you're not the IT guy and it is not your job. You will be blamed for everything that goes wrong and will waste time fixing or explaining differences. Do use a spin creation system for your distro of choice and have all of your software pre-installed for your tasks to minimize customization and difference between workstations.
Zorin OS is claimed to be designed specifically with Windows XP refugees in mind. They try to get the GUI essentials similar to Windows. It might be a smoother transition to Mint and eventually Arch (I'm kidding about Arch, of course).
Entia non sunt multiplicanda praeter necessitatem.
Observe the desktop users, see what they're doing, investigate FOSS alternatives that run on Linux. Find a distro that has all that working out the box. Customise the distro so that the default user setup has all that ready and waiting in the desktop menus. Congratulations! You're now a sysadmin on top of whatever you were before. If you like the sound of this, make it happen. If not tell your boss to employ a sysadmin to make the above happen, maybe you can get yourself in on the interview, maybe you can be his manager.
Why UNIX?
First, I'd recommend going with XFCE for your desktop. It's simple, looks kinda like windows and doesn't change looks constantly with each release.
If you are going to be managing these things, you might want to go with some sort of thinclient architecture with a beefy server, serving the old ex-XP boxes. This will reduce the configuration hassle long term, and make those crappy XP boxes seem pretty snappy. The downside, and it can be a doozy, if the server goes down or the networking is lousy, no one will be able to work.
... with that attitude.
So a while back I tried several different Linux desktops. Probably around 6 or 7. I used each one for about a week or two. They all had their Pros and Cons, but I went back to Ubuntu. I went back(it was the first one I tried...) for the stability, ease of use and software available.
And yes, I know all about the concerns with Amazon and how RMS feels about Ubuntu(which for the most part I agree with).
However I would reccommend it.
BUT!
About a week ago it started automatically going into sleep mode after ten minutes.
As of this writing I haven't figured out how to correct this.
It never did this before and it appears to ignore whatever Power Management settings I give it.
Yes I have Googled this and have tried many things suggested but nothing has worked so far...
If anyone has experienced this and knows the fix I would appreciate advice...
We play the game with the bravery of being out of range
If the users want a 'desktop' that looks like Windows, that would mean KDE or GNOME 2, which are not exactly light-weight.
On top of the test-station idea, you should try to find a few people that wouldn't mind "test driving" whatever-distro-you-pick. It would be far easier to support just a few people, and if all goes well, you'll have a few advocates that can help when you do a full-office transition.
Since I am the only guy with Linux experience I would have to support the Linux installations.
You're going to be the new Sys Admin. On top of your other work, which I am just assuming is not a Sys Admin role.
Let IT worry about IT.
Since when does being a Socialist mean 'someone who has a different opinion than me'?
employment is only income if your time is worthless
It is worth something to someone. That's called your salary or wage. Now if you do nothing this value decreases very rapidly to minimum wage by 6 months
http://saveie6.com/
What are they doing with the computers? Digital design? Publishing a newspaper? Handling invoices? Controlling a nuclear power plant? Software development? Defense work? Managing a taxi service?
The answer will depend entirely on the type of use.
It really depends on what he needs a PC for. If he's like 90% of the world all he needs is a web browser, an email client and a productivity suite. The fact that you can make magic happen on the command line doesn't really matter whatsoever (Powershell added most of that functionality to Windows anyway). Like the summary tagline suggests, Linux Mint with KDE with Firefox and Thunderbird installed would be an ideal demo. It's modern Windows built on free software.
The largest barrier to getting anything in the workplace but windows is a common ground with which you can collaborate and work. If you want to replace say, sharepoint, you can expect to have to sell everyone on the idea. your replacement needs to work seamlessly, just like sharepoint.
if you have a vmware deployment, linux is pretty much a non-starter as anything but a guest OS. you cant administer vsphere from linux, at least not in a way that wont make you hate your life. Many timecard systems and in house software packages might be predicated entirely on windows Internet Explorer, so the loss of ADP might piss off accounting. determine your userbase and its needs first.
Switching people from exchange is a daunting task, but egroupware and others can step up to the plate with a web-based UI. its also a huge cost saver. Whether or not your office wants that is another matter entirely. your linux systems will have to authenticate to AD, and never the other way around because windows just cant. while Libreoffice sure is a nice replacement for a new office, its a disaster when it comes to some of the finer points of complex excel spreadsheets, pivot tables, and the latest doc format. Lync, er, microsoft communicator as it was once called, has tentative support in linux but you lose helpful features like auto away and auto populate and that "call this person" feature I wonder if anyone ever uses..
doing this isnt easy. Ive spent 5 years of my career doing it, and the biggest hurdle is going to be your users. They want features like desktop sharing for meetings and gantt charts for planning. Linux doesnt really 'get' it like microsoft. The key is to make sure the channels of communication between windows users and linux users, be they desktop application level or enterprise, is uninterrupted. sometimes a quick switch from say lync to jabber is best. in other places you might want to phase things like sharepoint out over time. make sure you know how they work, and have a plan to provide a service that helps them achieve what theyre being paid to do.
another pitfall to be wary of is Microsofts jagged edge. Decreasing site licenses will beget unforseen costs like losing your Azure discount or more expensive license seats overall. the purchase terms will also change randomly and rapidly in an attempt to kill your linux idea from the management down (they do this to force meetings with your managers, who in turn dont invite you because its about a budget and not a computer to them.) Once I weaned a prior company off lync and exchange, I had microsoft representatives drop in entirely unannounced and ask for a meeting with almost every manager they could find (and me.) They will hound you with phonecalls, bombard you with junk mail, and chew up your time like never before. They do not like being shown the door.
Good people go to bed earlier.
I'm always encouraged to see Linux in the workplace, but it might or might not be the right answer.
The catch here is that no matter how much you save by upgrading to any new OS, the cost of support and usability issues will be much greater than than the cost of the OS even if new PCs are included. Focus on total life cycle cost, and it may be cheaper to upgrade the PCs to windows to avoid the training, ongoing teaching and hand holding required to shift to Linux of any flavor. Of course, if you've got a capable group of users the lifetime cost of Linux could be much lower. Without knowing your situation in detail, it's hard to say.
...but the price of hardware should probably not be driving the cost/benefit analysis.
If you're working with people who are comfortable with technology, then making such a transition should not cause too much pain. Annoyances yes, especially with file format compatibility issues, but nothing too serious. You'll be answering lots of questions, but the questions themselves will be from a position of needing some details filled in, not failure to understand basic concepts.
On the other hand, if you're working with people for whom computers and technology are PFM (Pure @#%$ing Magic) then ANY CHANGE, no matter how trivial, will lead to nervous breakdowns. For such people, use of a computer involves memorized incantations (if not outright prayers) based on mouse movements, clicks, and magic words typed into the screen. If these change, even slightly, they will be utterly lost and terrified -- and they'll blame YOU.
If this is the case, then you're going to have to create a standardized installation of Linux with a normal desktop interface (Cinnamon, KDE) and then TRAIN your employees on how to use it. Mint is a good choice. I'm using the KDE version of Mint 16 on all my workstations. The cinnamon version is also perfectly usable. There are of course other options. The key is to create an environment that is as close to what they know as possible. Not necessarily in terms of how it looks, but how it BEHAVES.
Even so, there will always be some differences that will trip such users up. You guys might have to hire a temp worker whose sole job will be to train and support your employees until they learn the new incantations.
The good news is that moving from XP/Vista/7 to a normal desktop Linux distro will actually be easier than trying to retrain these employees to use the malware that is Windows 8.
Muslim community leaders warn of backlash from tomorrow morning's terrorist attack.
Instead I want to set up one test machine for users to try it and ask THEM if they like it.
I guarantee that in this form, the result of the test will be that THEY won't like it. People fear the new and unknown and need positive incentives to change.
So, offer THEM the choice of one person, to be drawn at random from a hat, being fired to pay for e cost of new PCs vs switching to Linux and everyone keeping their jobs. Then you'll find they like Linux lots.
Also, keep in mind that 'supporting' users takes much more time than you might naively guess. Make sure that your efforts to 'support Linux' don't turn you into the unproductive member of the office.
You are getting yourself in a world of pain!
XP users will bitch and moan enough already if they have to use Windows 7 or 8. Giving them Linux would be much worse.
Here are some common misconceptions about end users:
1. They are stupid and only do stupid thing with there PC: Firefox and libreOffice is not the limit to a persons PC usage. They are going to do more complex things even if they don't realize it. They will want to share files over the network, they may want to attach their Camera to their PC, Video Conference, Do some graphics manipulations, even sometimes do basic system admin on their PC, such as updates or putting in a driver. You need to give them more credit then most people do. Linux for the desktop tends to have a doughnut hole in usability. You get Granny Open your program and browse the web. You got advanced user where you can script and program all you want... The hole is in the Moderate user category.
2. Their PC's will work great with Linux: Who really fully checks the Linux compatibility list when getting a PC. Especially if you initially get a windows PC. Even old PC's you may find that a network controller isn't supported, or a video driver never really worked right with that screen. Hardware makers usually make sure their stuff works on windows first then perhaps in Linux if they feel like there is a market for it.
3. Vendors/Customers/Partners will bend backwards to help you keep supported. I am sending you a DOCX with a Macro in it for you to view. Are you really going to have them redo their work so you can view that document. A vendor may give you a crappy convert. The customer will defiantly give you lip. A partner may question you.
4. We don't use Legacy Software: There is always that piece of legacy software that you have that makes porting expensive.
If something is so important that you feel the need to post it on the internet... It probably isn't that important.
Income is only worthless if you're time.
SJW's don't eliminate discrimination. They just expropriate it for themselves.
I'd give it a lot of thought before you spearheaded this initiative as it comes with a lot of personal risk. "This linux crap that Bob had us switch over to" will get the blame by the employees for any and all application or IT related issues.
To be clear, I'm not saying that Linux will be the cause, just that it will always be the presumed culprit.
Discrimination in the US based on age, race, or gender, is illegal for a US company to engage in.
Though in my experience there is all types of rampant discrimination based on the above.
Seeing as how his question says "About ten boxes here are still running Windows XP" I don't think he uses a single thing you mention. Not EVERY company has 50k machines, not do they have a huge staff with many years of experience.
That said, it all comes down to "what tools do you need to do your job?" Some places live and die by Office-specific features, other places wouldn't even notice if you switched office suites as long as they can use a spreadsheet app to make color-coded 2-dimensional lists. He's going about it exactly the right way -- setting up a small test environment.
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It depends on the available hardware and what do your boss expect: not every linux is created equal.
If you have relatively recent hardware (not more than 5/6 years) xubuntu or another light *buntu flavour will help you a lot (but still remember that not everything will works, i.e. flash will need CPU with > SSE2 instructions support, so you're basically screwed if you need it :-)
Other useful distro in work enviroments I successfully set up in the past were Fedora and RedHat (with the Boss being given the argument "their support fee is way smaller than MS licensing and it actually do something useful"). If your hardware is a lot less recent you still have plenty of distro available for small office work, from DSL (Damn Small Linux) to Slitaz to name a few.
Hope it helps!
Since Mint is a derivative of Ubuntu which is a derivative of Debian I'd stick with that. You have the support of the Debian/Ubuntu lines and the added multimedia functionality of Mint which means you don't have to configure any of it yourself. I wish Ubuntu included the multimedia stuff but I think some of it isn't FOSS. You will want to make sure whatever you choose won't run afoul of any licensing.
Had you given any thought to running a Terminal Server? I don't know what the cost of the server license and subsequent seats are but you could install just about any stripped down Linux distro and have them log on to a TS and have their full Windows experience on their older hardware.
"A person is smart. People are dumb, panicky dangerous animals and you know it." - K
machines will get Linux to replace XP? I ask that because you will be the "guy who made us switch from MS" and take the rap for every problem that arises. Document mangled? Blame Linux (and your decision to switch). Missed email? That never happened in Outlook, must be Linux' (and the guy who made us switch) fault. I am not saying that such blame would be reasonable or even that you will get blamed, but there is more to switching than just finding a good distro. Ask yourself, "do I have the time and qualifications to take the issue start will arise, train staff, troubleshot problems, find replacement programs for all that we currently use, etc?"
I'm a consultant - I convert gibberish into cash-flow.
If you want to know how to start, your first step would be to audit all the software that people use to get their jobs done. Once you have a complete list, ask these questions for each piece of software:
If you get to the end of those questions and the answer is "no", then you should probably cut your losses and accept that you'll have to stick with Windows. If you can answer "yes" to at least one of these questions for every piece of software on your list, then select some users to be in a pilot program. You should find at least a couple semi-influential but fairly patient power users and set up a new test machine for them.
If your boss has any basic science education try to sell them on the "a monoculture is at more risk to attack" approach. that's not entirely false, but mostly it sounds good and pointy-hairs tend to swallow it.
Then choose some version of Ubuntu or Red-Hat, but be ready to suffer all the horrors of dealing with the document, spreadsheet, calendar exchange formats. Those issues, more than any other, will spell failure. (just one middle-level moron who can't open your LibreOffice 'power-point' stack and you're toast) So, far more important than distribution is to be ready (practice!) your corporate compatibility two-step. (once saved my bacon by showing that my 'beamer' stack made everyone's powerpoint stack look like crap)
Beware of the vindictive IT staff who don't want to learn one more thing beyond their 'microsoft certification' merit badge. They will make your life a living hell. good luck!
I know they're expensive...but they're supported end-user based UNIX.
10 boxes on windows and a least a couple semi-power users of one or more office applications with defined workflows that help them get their job done. If all they use is webmail and surf the web then yeah but what 10 box office does that. Nobody there manages their everything in outlook?
Can you assign permissions for some root like things but not all? Can you apply patches by the thousands? If an update fails will you receive a log back via sccm? Does Firefox support .pacs for monitoring? Can you create a GPO to lock gnome profiles with ease for PCI compliance?
Until then keep dreaming Linux college boy. In the real world shit needs to get done and doesn't who gets em done. Linux maybe a fine server OS but Microsoft got it beat well over a decade ago in the field of business and management.
Can you assign permission or some root like things but not all?
Yes, that's old news. Where do you think Windows got it's idea of groups and permissions from? Not Windows!
Can you apply patches by the thousands?
Yes, things like the RHN and Ubuntu Landscape. Not new things first I used RHN was circa 2002. All my machines controllable, updatable, rebootable, roll back from wherever I am.
If an update fails can you rollback?
Yes, also old news old trick not new.
PACS? Seriously?
GPO?
No, that's for a windows world. Not a windows concept though. Other ways to skin that cat.
No free lunch though. All the above, just like windows, is going to cost you.
What kind of hardships you will face totally depends on details of your workplace and work. I mean, if you are developing for xbox live or something, you probably don't want to force Linux on your colleagues. If you are doing hardcore science, you probably are already using Linux. Do you have a lot of legacy applications? One important legacy app can screw up your transition.
I tried many flavor of ubuntu and now I always use Xubuntu. Simple and fast. Set automatic update and make two users, Administrator and User. Never give away the administrator pwd. Install vino and set permission for remote desktop. Be clear on one Thing!!! You are not the one to ask for it, they asked for it! They can change any time they want and pay for!
Instead I want to set up one test machine for users to try it and ask THEM if they like it.
This experiment will have a predetermined outcome: the users will not going to like it (if they even bother to try it) because its is different. Don't do it unless you realy need an excuse not to transition to linux.
If I were you I would do a gradual change:
As far as distro's come, the obvious choice is to do it with the distro that you are most familiar with. Alternatively use a distro that will be supported for years to come, even if you are no longer with the company.
so your company collects no personal data about anyone (not even employees) and takes no credit card payments . . . . what business are you in ?
Basically no 3rd party special corporate software runs on Linux so the answer is almost always no. It doesn't even work well with Exchange. But if the system is for web browsing, Google Docs or an ODF office suite, and file storage, go for it. Otherwise, the lack of any domain controls or ability to join a Windows domain kills it in most cases. Out of the 42 systems here at my company, none of them could run Linux or Apple. Every single one needs access to our shared drive that's domain-permissions controlled and they all most need to run Photoshop, Oasis (IE-only), Quickbooks, Office 2003, AutoCAD or something else Windows-only.
Just as the title says. Start by first replacing the software on the computers with their open-source alternatives. Swap Outlook for Thunderbird, Internet Exploder/Chrome with Firefox/Chromium, Office with Libre. Then, have them use it for several weeks. Once people get comfortable, shift over to Linux. Otherwise, you're going to get lots of opposition due to the sharp change. I like Xubuntu, but in all honesty Mint or Elementary are probably your best bet for the least amount of shock.
Access Control Lists came from VMS. UNIX knows root and non root. Yes someone added a patch to Linux to include. But is not integrated with the platform and most apps are not ACL aware. With OU's you can set them for locations in AD with group policies and move with a mouse click by the thousands.
Due to sexual harassment lawsuits businesses need a way to track usage. Everyone uses .pac files with IE.
Doesn't matter if it's win specific or not. Shit needs to get done. GPOs do that. Linux never had an answer to this so it stays in academia and specialized servers. For business sorry but Windows has it beat with management.
http://saveie6.com/
I've done this.
You will have the following problems:
#1 - some business users will be totally unable to function without microsoft outlook. They will have ZERO interest or patience in learning thunderbird (or whatever) and will become INCREDIBLY vocally disgruntled that it doesn't do the fonts/alarms/animatedsigniatures/auto-invite-replies/whatever the way "it always worked in outlook"
#2 - file sharing. If your in a typical "business" environment, the functionality (not saying it's good or bad) of windows SMB/CIFS sharing will be incredibly difficult to replace. I've used NFS to achieve similar results with a graphical file browser, but you will be surprised how many users copy/paste files instead of drag/drop and the minor UI differences will cause them to clam up FAST.
#3 - proprietary business apps. Not even niche line-of-business apps - but stuff like the UPS Worldship client. It's possible to operate without them, but would/will take SERIOUS business realignment and shake-up to do.
#4 - Welcome to the IT department, you're the new system administrator and helpdesk guy. Your job will vanish if the linux deployment has any speedbumps.
#5 - If your network uses radioActive Directory, prepare for pain. Several years ago, I successfully built a gentoo fileserver running samba, extended file attributes, pam plugins etc that was 100% "integrated" into the company active directory - you could even right-click a file from a windows box and play with the fine-grained permissions with individual user ACLs and stuff, and after some trial and error it even worked - but it was a SERIOUS pain in the ass. Getting a bunch of desktops to not only authenticate against an AD server, but to handle things like home directory creation, user ID translation, etc, intelligently will be a pain in the rear to setup and maintain. Security patches to your AD server _WILL_ break the duct tape.
#6 - You will very quickly learn exactly how scared of computers 50% of end-users are. They perform their tasks by rote, and if something (say, plugging in a USB stick) doesn't behave in a way they expect it to, you should expect constant show-stopper-sounding complaints to the boss. Get used to hearing things like "Ginger says she can't do her job." on a weekly or daily basis.
#7 - connecting to printers/scanners/whatever shared off some windows box will end up being a LOT more problematic then you think.
#8 - If users can't load their comet cursor, change their background to some animated waterfall, or have other specific desktop tweaks like they're used to, expect "Ginger can't work like this" complaints, no matter how trivial it is to you and me.
#9 - "My excel macros don't work with this openoffice calc thing" turns out to be more of a actual show-stopper then you think.
You will experience the following pros:
#1 - Up-front short term cost savings on licensing. Your boss will love that.
I'm not suggesting you hold back, and I've converted 3 small companies to desktop linux myself, just giving you some fair warning of what to expect.
#2 -
just tell him this is the year of desktop linux.
never bring a twinkie to a food fight.
I'd say that attempting to start it in the workplace on outdated machines with people who've likely been using the same OS for over a decade because they've never been upgraded is the wrong way to go about it. While it is a decent use case for Linux on the desktop, you're also setting it up for failure.
Showcasing it on decently modern machines and with users who (likely) aren't so entrenched to show that it's capable of competing with a modern OS, and THEN taking the, "Oh, and this will also run on that old crap hardware pretty decently" approach after would be better. Unfortunately that process should have started a year or more ago to be effective.
At this point I'd agree with most of the others above. Tell your boss he's better off shelling out to upgrade the computers rather than trying to keep the dead walking.
"Always forgive your enemies; nothing annoys them so much." - Oscar Wilde
This really depends on your coworkers and what type of work everyone does. If everyone is pretty savvy then you might be OK. No two people use their computer the same way at work though and you'd be surprised how many backwards things people will do as part of their daily work flow.
There aren't many warning pop up boxes to save users from themselves. Are you ready to deal with "I accidentally removed my toolbar" or something equally absurd? Or "Why is it i keep getting a crackling sound when i listen to a youtube video?" Little things that you take for granted that work well on a Windoze box can actually be a pain for average people even in an office environment. Adobe Flash is a pain in the balls randomly on Windoze!
No good deed goes unpunished.
I run Mint at work and at home, and my retired neighbor runs it because of me.
However I continually run into limitations from it just not being windows. Unless all they do is web work, I foresee a need for them to run something micrrosoft.
Best to install SpiceWorks and see what you've got installed across your domain.
Slashdot's rate-of-post filter: Preventing you from posting too many great ideas at once.
The application should drive the OS and not the other way around. If the application runs best with Windows, then that is the answer. Same goes for Apple, ChromeOS, Android, etc. If the computers are old and slow, then they are ripe for failures and should be replaced on that account alone. Lost productivity due to a hard drive failure of an old system is bad management. If you read any non-biased studies, then you will know that Linux isn't free. I have seen ROI studies that show Linux on the Desktop to cost more for a company.
FYI, Linux is absolutely NOT invulnerable to attack. Assuming you don't need AV on it is a very stupid stance to take. There may not be as many viruses in the wild, they do exist. I have also seen a lot of Linux installs that have stripped away a lot of security and use generally poor security practices. Linux can be just as much of a security threat as Windows, in the wrong hands.
...even if they would only be using Firefox, Thunderbird and LibreOffice...
I just finished installing Debian Wheezy with XFCE4 on the laptop of a friend whose usage pretty much fits this description, and she loves it. (She *hated* Win 7 but quite liked WinXP). Personally I stay away from Ubuntu because, as I understand it, an upgrade is somewhat more painful than it is for Debian. So if you're interested in Linux Mint, you might want to try Linux Mint Debian Edition, (LMDE), as it has the slickness of Mint but maintains rolling releases.
'The Economy' is a giant Ponzi scheme whose most pitiable suckers are the youngest among us and the yet-unborn.
You go on believing that..
---- Booth was a patriot ----
So? Run LibreOffice everywhere, Windows and Linux. MS Office is arguably more vulnerable to attacks than the core of Windows XP.
If your time is worthless, you arent employed.
Linux is not Unix it's Unix like. Both know user, group, and others. Both know read, write, execute. Learn about them and sudo.
Non issue as other browsers besides IE i.e. Firefox support PAC files. I wasn't even bothering dignifying that with an answer you should have known. Everyone doesn't use PAC files. I honestly haven't used them since the late 90's. Oh and Mozilla based browsers supported them even back then. I'd say we have 10,000 machines no PAC files. How is it done?!?
Surely you realize companies like Google are businesses! Windows there is a special use case. Figure out how it's done not say it isn't or can't be done.
1) Be working for any non-US company where IP or security is an issue.
2) Install Linux.
Next?
---- The above post was generated by the Turing Institute. Maybe.
I am in the process of switching several WinXP boxes here at work to Slackware with Xfce. These machines need the following: a browser (Firefox), email (Thunderbird), ability to access the Filemaker Pro database (WINE/FMP), office suite that can open/print/change MS Office documents (LibreOffice), and the ability to open and print PDFs (Acrobat Reader). I put together a Slackware system able to do all of this, and presented it to management. After extensive evaluation and testing, they were convinced and impressed, and so I have been rolling these out over the past week. There are ten XP boxes that will have this same configuration. As I am the defacto IT guy around here, I can't tell you how happy I am not to have to deal with those WinXP boxes after this is done! Dealing with Slackware after those will be a blessing, and easy—set it, and forget it (just updates and upgrades).
ChromeOS is Linux based. But you'll be able to hide all that completely. Upgrades are pushed automatically, so security is up-to-date, there's no additional software to install and purchase. Mail, calendaring, etc. - all web based, be it gmail or something else - exchange, etc. Word processing/spreadsheets - google docs is great, but if you need better MS office compatibility, you can always use office365 live.
$2-400 a box, and you can surplus all those old pc's.
Zorin OS is currently the closest Linux distro to XP I reckon. Fedora for bleeding edge, Debian for reliability, Mandriva, Arch, Gentoo etc. but all of these distro's are free and can easily run a graphics server like X to provide a windows environment such as Xfce or even the demanding GNOME on old low-spec PC's.
Free stable kernel OS's like Linux go towards saved money and saved money goes towards company profits and are freely, securely and routinely patched, something your bosses might find very appealing when every penny needs to be watched in the current economic climate, OP. Money that doesn't have to be spent paying for licensed buggy bloatware operating systems hint hint. And Linux-oriented company's still makes money while offering maximum savings for a business with OpenOffice, VLC and GIMP for graphics & other software for the workplace, all free. Win win.
Make sure you demo linux well. Then, if your infrastructure guy doesn't kill himself having to support two desktop platforms requiring extremely different ways to manage them, and integrate in the windows environment (ntml, sharepoint, i.e. requires web apps).
Then show the user just how easy it is to schedule a meeting on exchange. I am sure they will love it.
Or, they will say fucks this - all i need to do is write documents, send emails, schedule appointments, and access the company web apps. If it cant do that, then its not worth it. Whats the small licensing fee compared to that.
Now for developer workstations, hell yeah - as long as its not windows development, unless they run virtual environments. But it comes back to windows again. I prefer centos when i'm working with java, and the lamp shit-stack. I pref java versus .net. But, I development for the windows platform mainly, I use windows on virtualbox or a virtual machine somewhere else.
I have a macbook at home I use for everything - love it. But I still cant code for windows on it with out virtualizing something.
If Linux can get to the point of integrating with windows environments like mac does, people would start choosing it.
If you're considering putting a whole office of newbies on Linux, then all they need is a web browser and simple word processing, spreadsheet, e-mail and printing. Sounds to me like something that could be accommodated by a Chromebox or Chromebook. They're CHEAP too! Zero maintenance.
The distro is up to you. The desktop is up to them. Give them all the possible options.
If you use a distro like openSUSE, you can easily add KDE, GNOME, XFCE, LXDE, Enlightenment and others. I would probably stick with the main three, with a personal like to XFCE.
Alxso see if there are people who use excel intensivaly, because that could be tricky.
So you choose the distro, they choose the desktop. Takea distro that you already use. The desktop should be available for it.
And don't forget that installing it is the easy part. Maintaining it and the next 10 years (with upgrades and new hardware) will be the hard part. One last tip. Don't talk about free as in gratis, because management will then asume that there is no cost and the moment anything computer related shows up on budget, it will be confusing and you will be called a liar.
You can also play around with SUSE Studio so you easily can make images that contain not all applications, but only those that you need, including anything you made yourself.
The builds could be used as beta for the final release for yoiur company.
Don't fight for your country, if your country does not fight for you.
This is *actually how* someone would go about approaching this!
"Now the problem is what works perfectly fine for me may be a horrible experience for some of my coworkers," So glad to hear some one advocating Linux say this. It's not all about MY experience and if YOU don't like it then that's YOUR problem.
Sorry about the mess.
Ensuring that Java exists on all your workplace computers only expands the attack vectors.
Same with Windows.
With Windows, it takes a ton of time for people to get stuff done.
With Linux, it takes a little time from one person who really knows what she's doing to get stuff done.
It's your choice between "drag and drop ALL the things" or "one-liner regex magic" to organize files, for instance.
But Linux these days lets you do things the GUI way, too, so it's not really a problem. I gave an old laptop to a friend of mine who is completely tech-naive, and threw Lubuntu on it with some shortcuts on the desktop, and showed her how to use the package manager. She has no complaints and is able to do her stuff.
You're going to spend way too much time trying to get Samba to do all the funny stuff that an ancient farm of XPs has set up to share. You're going to have to do this in stages, which means replicating the exact sharing structure of the old machines. The users won't be able to do this themselves. ("After editing /etc/samba/smb.conf, restart Samba for the changes to take effect." - Ubuntu documentation)
Then you have to get everybody converted from Microsoft Office to OpenOffice/LibreOffice. They're not that compatible. Some documents and spreadsheets will be broken. Templates won't transfer very well. Everyone's workflow will be disrupted. The overhead of doing this for a small shop will be higher than the savings.
The small office environment is where the Microsoft environment does best. Upgrade to Windows 7, one machine at a time. Windows 7 is a good OS. (The solid Microsoft OSs were NT 3.51, Windows 2000, and Windows 7.)
Reiterating because it's the only answer worth a damn.
If you take more than your fair share of objectives, you will receive more than your fair share of objectives to take.
Xubuntu. Nice tidy and easy to maintain remotely.
You can easily make a standard deployment from it and easily deploy new software or updates without ever touching the machine.
Do not look at laser with remaining good eye.
As soon as they scratch the thinnest surface they will get very confused. In my experience, configuring KDE like Windows results in rejection after an initial period of brief comfort.
Comment removed based on user account deletion
The boss needs to understand he's going to have to spend money no matter what. Either the money goes to Microsoft, or it goes to an additional support person, and possibly a service contract with Canonical or Red Hat. The difference is partly ideological: as a company do you want to support free(dom) based software; whose flavor of that ideology to you want to support? And partly technical: Choosing the right strategy for the users' present and future use cases. So the dilemma here is it sounds like the company doesn't have a person filling the BT role, it's just a CEO who maybe thinks this is just a way to save money and the IT person who really isn't in a good position to make this decision because he's an implementer rather than a resource acquirer and allocator. You need a mandate and a budget to do this no matter what.
The most amazing thing about this discussion is that I don't feel so alone. I'm an experienced software developer who started with V7 Unix and worked on the development of several Unix platforms during the 80s before switching to Windows development. In recent years, I've tried a few Linux desktop distributions, but I always seem to have trouble with them right out of the box. I'm not using funky hardware or trying to do anything weird, but every distribution seems to do something dumb. I installed Mint and ended up working around problems where the desktop wouldn't appear. The last straw was when Eclipse would go larger-than-fullscreen which made it impossible to do any work. I asked around and was told to try Fedora, and I can't put anything on the desktop or on the menus. I'm beginning to wonder if I could ever find a distribution that would just let me get my work done.
Because with the exception of Win8, there have been core elements and behaviors of the OS that have been carried over all the way from 3.11 and Win95.
The Amarri pray for god, the Caldari pray for profit. the Gallente pray for peace, but the Minmatar pray their ships hol
So? Run LibreOffice everywhere
Great plan! How do I convince my affiliates, vendors, clients, and other business partners to switch?
When our name is on the back of your car, we're behind you all the way!
Can use LibreOffice whitout Java http://ask.libreoffice.org/en/...
And you lose access to functionality and get warning messages. Users will love both. And, unless I'm mistaken, that JRE is still installed. That checkbox doesn't remove it.
To spend $400 per desktop machine, with Windows 7 on it, then perhaps it's time to find another company.
You will find yourself spending more than $4000 worth of your time supporting these people...and then making all the documents/spreadsheets behave properly between Libre and Office....
Tell your boss to get his head out of his ass and spend a little bit of money. It's not like he's spending $1500 per machine or anything.
>> employment is only income if your time is worthless
> It is worth something to someone. That's called your salary or wage. Now if you do nothing this value decreases very rapidly to minimum wage by 6 months
As I understood it the point is: you're not getting money. You are trading your remaining lifetime at a rate that is never fair.
Just do a simple math and calculate how much you make an hour, then offer someone all your remaining hours for that rate. You'll get rich quick (I hope) but then you won't be able to spend any money for you will not be able to "take the time" to go shopping.
If you're out of ideas with good ROI, a bank will accept your money and give you some coins as interest.
Same thing with your life and salary.
Now, if you really love your job, that's another can of worms... people will pay you to do what you will do anyway, because you want to do that.
You're not selling anything, you're letting them join the ride for a fee.
tl;dr: the value of work does not come from salary.
We're talking about business here. Let the money have its voice.
I cant think of a reason why it is not just as good but it is not! there, its written in the internet so it must be true. ... )
(although ssh is
Oh please. It takes little time for someone who knows what he's doing to get it done in Windows or Linux. Some of you people seem to think Windows consists of cmd.exe and the GUI.
"Why is it that every single file you send me has to be reformatted? If you don't get your act together, I will have no choice but to cancel our contract and change suppliers."
Oh, you thought that the documents created are only used internally? Are you sure you have worked in the real world?
There is no "-1 offended" or "-1 you don't agree with me" mod options for a reason.
I've tried for years and I'm sad to say there is just no place for Linux on the desktop for the foreseeable future. The strategy that should be taken, assuming you want *nix on the desktop, is Mac on desktop and Linux on the server.
you don't worry about it, you just make sure that all external stuff is presented in pdf format.
Was there an implication that he is doing server maintainance somewhere? There are a few comments here telling him to start on the server side, but for all we know this is an advertising company or whatever that just needs workstations with internet access.
1. Took a long term approach to the transition. (ie, planned to move to linux years before actually doing it)
2. Everytime we upgraded software or changed software, we made decisions based on whether or not it ran on Linux. The end result was when we switched, all the software we needed would be ready for us.
3. The change happened organically. Finally after the 30th time XP died, and required a complete reinstall, we were ready for Linux Mint. (which was easier to install than doing XP again on some of our machines)
4. We've never looked back. (And never have yet to reinstall the OS because it crapped out on us)
Everyone loves money. Tell your boss to offer a program. Whatever the licensing fee for windows is for the first year, off that up as a bonus to anyone that switches. You lose the first year cash incentive, but once people convert they can't switch back and it'll pay for itself next year.
there is no anti-virus software to deal with
You're not ready.
systemd is Roko's Basilisk.
Three words: P D F.
I'm currently doing this by giving users a KDE desktop and using crossover-office to instal MS Office 2003 (which they currently use because they don't like the ribbon.) The main reason that LibreOffice is a non-starter is because it has no Access support. Most of the time they are using a web browser, and since they already use Firefox and/or Chrome, they seem to be quite happy.
A) Those are three letters, not words. B) I am sure that PDF will import into Excel to allow them to examine how the numbers were derived quite well. C)Seven words: Only send us Word and Excel documents.
There is no "-1 offended" or "-1 you don't agree with me" mod options for a reason.
The only downside to using Linux in the workplace doesn't become apparent unless you regularly exchange documents with people in other locations, be they coworkers, clients, or what have you. At that point, you will discover that people outside your office will send you Microsoft format documents and not only expect you to be able to read them, but that you will be able to modify them and send them back.
While a pure linux shop can just use "Libre Office" and whatever other tools work well for a given circumstance, that idea just flat out fails when you're collaborating with folks who are using current Microsoft tools. The people in the home office don't like being told their document doesn't look right because they used a feature that's standard in Microsoft Office 2013, but that LIbre Office doesn't implement or doesn't get quite right. They *REALLY* don't like it when they send you a document and you send them back something forced down to Word 98 compatibility format.
So, that's the headache you're setting yourself (and your boss) up for if you switch the office (or part of it) to Linux. If you're all internal, it's easier to work around, but will still become an issue from time to time. If you don't share documents often, then it's a moot point.
Just give them chromebooks and google drive accounts.
best practical advice yet
It's old, but fvwm has been great for me for 17 years now. Fvwm95 is lightweight, and looks an awful lot like Windows... (Okay, windows doesn't have virtual desktops out of the box, but otherwise it's quite similar.)
Windows starts to become more useful once you get Cygwin installed on it. Not quite as Good as Linux but it is a start.
Why is it so hard to only have politicians for a few years, then have them go away?
The easiest way to switch off of Windows would probably to move to Google Docs. Still costs money (I don't know what business accounts cost), but you can keep employees on Windows in the nearterm and transition only from Office to Docs, then introduce Linux relatively painlessly.
Then toss the whole damn thing in the trash and get a coffee.
Just call it Windows 9 and let them get on with it ....
...or SuSE Linux Enterprise Desktop (if you need the support and want to pay for it).
Powershell is just a shell. Does it have SSH? tar? bzip? awk? sed? a real grep alternative (findstr doesn't count)? rsync (robocopy doesn't count as it can't work over SSH)? tr? a million other tiny commands that can be linked together in novel ways?
Choosing a distro is much like choosing your future wife. There are many factors that you'll need to consider. Mainly length of upstream support, familiarity with the system tools, applications needing to be fulfilled, etc... There is no right distro, but once you deploy one in a commercial environment you're stuck with it. So do your research and make your decision carefully. I personally don't like Ubuntu based distros but they do have their own pros, mainly that there's tons of documentation on them. If you're only doing office productivity tasks, it's hard to beat CentOS. It's free, rock solid, has great long term upstream support. It'll run just fine on your old machines. You can greatly expand the software possibilities using EPEL and other repositories. The system tools, while dated compared to more recent distros still work great.
Any OS change is going to have a learning curve. Hell, I had to adjust to using Linux in '01 after having used OS/2 for about four years. Ask yourself this: are you willing to put up with every single user asking you every minute of every day how to do X on the new system? If the answer is not 110% "yes", then you had best hit the EJECT button right now.
This sig no verb.
I have switched dozens of people over to linux.
Here is what I have learned.
The less people know about computers, the more they like linux.
Some windows users get really pissed off and think they have been screwed and then refuse to ever use windows again.
People that love outlook and aol don't seem to like linux.
Twenty percent of people actually believe me when I tell them it's windows 9 and say, "Damn, microsoft finally got it right."
Few if any ever bring their computers back to be fixed. When I ask them why they say it works.
For a $10 extra charge I guarantee to remove any and ever linux virus they get for free. I've never had the need to do that.
Never, ever install the Unity interface for Ubuntu. Even expert users hate it.
When people complain about not getting Netflix (yeah there is a workaround) I point them to stream-tv.me and that shuts them up.
It is helpful to tell them it will cost $250 to upgrade to windows 7 and reinstall all their programs. Or, if the cryptolocker virus has encrypted their files. Sometimes people need just a little extra motivation to do the right thing.
A few people saw the light after learning about open source licensing vs proprietary licensing. What would Jesus Do? Jesus would use Linux. This is reason enough for many Christians.
Linux is only free if your time is worthless
There is a fallacy in your statement. Buying Windows doesn't get you any more than using free linux. Both Microsoft and linux distros provide updates, so that is a wash and both require somebody to maintain/support it, so that cost, too is a wash. In either case, your time is of the same value and not dependent on the operating system in question.
You should be careful this can either turn into a nightmare if your boss fails to account for your work and your co-workers are the worst of the IT-world worst. Of course if your co-workers are reasonably intelligent, willing to learn, and your boss accounts for your added workload(maybe even a promotion god forbid) then this could be a great opportunity. I agree Linux Mint 16 with Cinnamon as the shell would be best. LM14 is a LTS release but Cinnamon isn't nearly as clean looking in 14 as 16 in my opinion so it may be a pain but just upgrade them for the next LTS release or even just keep things rolling for a while. For your purposes(10-12 machines) having individual installs is fine, for bigger applications a PXE-boot solution from a central server is much more manageble and smooth. I would make sure to only have Thunderbird, Firefox, LibreOffice and Home Folder on the taskbar. Double check the Samba stuff as specified but shares work pretty smoothly otherwise in LM16. Make sure to disable the update and a couple other unnecesary startup items and run updates every couple weeks or so yourself(ssh-ing in would work great) since no user ever runs updates and it's easier for you to do it. Use "Conversations" and "Lightning" for Thunderbird. "adblock", "Web of Trust", and HTTPS everywhere(eff.org not in addons list) for Firefox. Also make sure LibreOffice saves in Microsoft formats and stops asking users if they want to save files that way
If it's 64 bit it ain't old, sonny.
Seems your shift key is broken, though.
NGOML!
Confucius say, "Find worm in apple - bad. Find half a worm - worse."
I support about 200 Workstation...
Our typical user call the helpdesk when one of the icons is moved on the desktop.
It might be cheaper for "you", but in the long run, you will loose.
Our users are Office users, you take that away we might as well close up shop.
In theory, looks great, but those still on XP, wont adjust.
A typical user comment "My daughter works for the faa, she says windows 7 sucks, its horrible, I wont use it" - Why? -> because she told me, and she works for the faa? ... (no wonder we loose planes)
...to investigate all software dependencies in your workplace... the project will fail if you need any Windows-only components.
If you use MS Exchange you may loose some functionality if you dump Outlook and/or Office.
One of the biggest user related problems is the different approach to file system and drive connections, you will get a lot of "where is my C: drive" and "why can't I use the \".
Plenty of UNIXes have ACL implementations. Doesn't really matter if the application is aware of it or not as it is mandatory.
Its a Debian based business Server with an ldap directory backend. It spans multiple servers and roles. It seamlessly integrates samba4, so windows hosts are also happy with it.
It comes with a UCC (Univention Coorporate Client) which you can install via network boot. (just a few clicks.) Its KDE Based, lean and makes a lot of sense. Of course you can also hookup ubuntu.
I have done large installations 2500+ Users as well as 15 users shops with it.
http://univention.de/
I came to say the same thing. Generally though if your boss is willing to take the plunge, you've got to make sure the business is able to perform the functions that need to function and test vigorously. Another possible solution might be ReactOS but it's not Linux, it's a binary compatible OS that runs windows based programs.
... can run Windows 7, 8, and 8.1 without a hitch. Your hardware would have to be P3 class to have issues with Win7+, and even then there's a few upgrades that can be done to make it useable.
Fifty watts per channel, baby cakes.
I would suggest letting them try Linux Mint 16 w/ MATE. This addresses the hardware problem (this setup works on nearly everything) and user problem (MATE is simple to use).
If it's too much hassle dealing with LibreOffice, just migrate everyone to Office365. It's web-based, so you can run it on any operating system you want.
C)Seven words: Only send us Word and Excel documents.
Finally. Only been banging the drum for a couple of decades.
Its. The. File. Format.
The first time your boss buys a new office printer/scanner/fax machine with a tonne of fancy features (stapling, collating, etc), it will all fall apart. With Windows you just load the drivers and go. With Linux, well, good luck with that.....
There are just some things that are not worth the effort and running LINUX on office desktops is one of them.... Besides, it's much more fun playing with servers...
Powershell handles pipes stupidly. Really? No inter process communication using pipes?
I run Windows, Linux and even a couple of Unix servers. I do not use powershell, I sure as hell have no use for Cmdlets. If I need to on Windows I will still use batch or WSH. Powershell wants to be a programming language and that want wrecks it as a decent command line. If you think that Powershell is a good replacement for a powerful and flexible Linux command line then it is obvious that you have no idea what can be done with a Linux command line.
Why is it so hard to only have politicians for a few years, then have them go away?
...and you, who are the first AC who brought up powershell as a retort to Cygwin, are obviously ignorant about all things except for powershell ... so you lose.
IPC is possible, albeit differently than Linux. Is this alone enough to discount Powershell entirely? Perhaps if you're a zealot. Personally, I prefer the object oriented nature of PS to the hacky string parsing of the Linux CLI. I write enough string processing code as it is, I'd rather not write anymore performing menial tasks. Taking a dependency on a blob of text is generally a bad idea, and that's precisely why PS' approach is so elegant.
Anyway, if you genuinely recommend WSH over PS, you can be safely disregarded.
Nope, too vain to post as AC, AC.
EVERYTHING that goes wrong will be blamed on Linux.
One of my users accidentally turned the brightness on the monitor all the way down. "Linux broke my monitor!"
I would be interested in reading about some of the idiotic things other guys have had blamed on Linux.
These steps are taken from recent transitions of the governmental infrastructures as seen in the news:
1. Switch the progs/apps to those which runs on linux. That means YOU might need to recode (expecially since there are trade secret issues involved) all the VBA macros and convert the files to the appropriate formats.
2. If that ever gets done, it should be seamless to migrate to linux if your users can get used to the desktop environment.
3. Have backup ready when hiccups arises.
The switch for them has never been about cost; it's usually about open formats or security or some other weird reasons. Might want to keep that in mind.
And from my own experience, if your printers/scanners are not hooked up using network cables or wireless, you need to test the server during off-hours. If they are, set up a print server on a vm anyway to ensure all the machine can be automagically configured. This is especially important if your printer uses proprietary drivers.
For distros, I would imagine you'll need to have the following configurations:
1) Take a semi-rolling distro (Debian stable/testing, LMDE, SolydXK are the easier ones), so you don't need to do a complete reinstall every so often which may make stuff look/behave completely different for your users.
2) Let them choose from Desktop environments that are not expected to have major changes (MATE comes to mind) in looks
3) Configure it so updates are applied during off-hours (so it will look seamless to them), assuming there is such a thing as off-hours. Get in the habit of having them to tell you if they need to have their box on overnight (as in not rebooting them)
With the window manager business sorted out (i myself prefer lxde), give Kingsoft Office a try. It is free (not open i think), but IMO it is leaps and bounds ahead of Libreoffice usability.
I've found lack of microsoft-equivalent office suites the most dificult obstacle to sort out on "linux on the workplace". Try Kingsoft, really
I think the best answer is; Distros mean very little anymore. There is actually only 2 major things you really need to ask:
#1) GUI - the 'windows' of linux. What style do you desire?
--A Windows 7 style? Then KDE 4.x will fit the bill.
--XP style? Gnome 2.x will work. After your more comfortable with linux, there is at least a dozen different GUIs I can think of now you can try.
Remember in linux, you can install both GUIs listed above, and switch between them easily.
#2) For Distros, There is only two major things to ask:
a) Do you want a distro that works right out of the box, almost completely debugged (and when your moving to linux, you want to minimize problems until your more comfortable with linux.) and will work for years without upgrading? Then check three of the foundation distros.
--- Debian 7.4
--- RedHat (The 'free version is called 'Fedora') and it's at v20 now.
--- FreeBSD v10
Pros:
The distro works out of the box,
Doesn't need upgraded very often - I understand there is people that runs Debian Sarge (v3.0, 2005)
Very, very debugged.
Cons:
Software can be rather old but usually it's the GUI. The programs itself (Like Firefox) can be upgraded by yourself.
b) Or do you want a cutting edge distro that upgrades both OS, and apps quickly?
There is literately hundreds of distros then. But they are based upon one of the 3 foundation distros seen above.
---Ubuntu and it's variants; Debian
---OpenSuse - Redhat
---I know very little about BSD so others can help here.
Pros of using child distros:
You get cutting edge software - both OS, and programs. However there is very few programs that are new - nearly all was created in the last 20 years so they're very mature.
The OS usually is released on a fast schedule - Ubuntu, is on a 6 month cycle and they almost force you to upgrade like Windows by removing support.
Cons:
Making an upgrade is a time consuming, and difficult process at times. Most of the time requires a complete wipe and install.
The biggest problem with these distros, is they're usually buggy, and sluggish for they add a lot of unnecessary code. These distros are designed to give their user the most advanced versions of mature programs.
-- You may now ask: What programs do you need to run?
All linux based programs can run on any distro. It's just a matter of packaging. .DEB, .RPM, and .TAR/GZ are the three major packagers, which correspond to Debian, Redhat/Fedora (respectively). Tar/gz is a universal one, but can be difficult to install. .RPM and .DEB are almost like Windows 1 package download and install.
--
A few things to remember about linux:
Installing programs STILL is a major problem and repositories is not the placenta many think they are. You can run into programs that have no repositories, or they could be old versions. Chances are too; if you need an older version it's harder to find. But it's not as serious as it was.
Drivers are especially problematic. nVidia's binary driver it's extremely difficult to install AND can wreck a system at times. I hate to say it, but Windows 1 file download is still superior.
Command line? 99% of desktop/Laptop users have no need for this. Only for power users, or sysadmins like myself.
Compiling the Kernel? Again, only power users, and THAT was only for extreme measures.
--
Here is some pieces of advice that will make your move to linux less of a hassle
#1 Get 'Boot-Repair' (https://help.ubuntu.com/community/Boot-Repair) GRUB is a major land-mine, that can wreck your system. This program solves nearly all of the problem.
#2 Get "Sy
IPC sucks in Powershell and you are thinking like a programmer. When you do work on servers you do not need or want a "Proper programming language" you want something that ties your entire system together and allows you to quickly make use of it all. Not just IPC. Linux command line runs cirlces around powershell in IPC (Which to those of us who do work on servers know is very important) the difficulty in starting up stuff in the background and tailing stuff you start up. grep, awk and sed. Then lets ad in the fact that most 3rd party tool in Linux expect to be able to be called in the command line. I have to tell you the ability to pop up a command line and tell GIMP to grab every .png in a specific directory rotate it 90 degrees and resize it to 900x900 then rename the file by appending it with "_900x900" and sticking them all into a new directory, then edit the permissions of the directory itself to allow others to see it, hit enter and move on to something else is pretty fucking useful. And it is soo much more powerful than that. It is not just for administration. Although the linux (everything is a file) system makes this much easier.
Why is it so hard to only have politicians for a few years, then have them go away?
You haven't provided a single concrete example of what you can easily achieve with the Linux CLI that can't be done with PS. Both have their obvious strengths and weaknesses, so doing so shouldn't be hard. It makes me question your competency, you know? In fact, the only example you've given makes me want to vomit. You think that is elegant or intuitive? Fuck man. But yeah, I actually do work with servers, being that I do a lot of work with distributed computing. In fact, I specialize in distributed test automation, so I'm getting a laugh out of your lone, pitiable example.
What is wrong with pipes working to give you power? What is wrong with massive third party app support for command line. I don't get you. I have Windows servers where they work well, Linux servers where they are best and a couple of SCO Unix servers that I can not get rid of. I use Windows servers and am able to get work done on them. Powershell though is unused. Tried it, played with it, worked with it. Hate it.
Why is it so hard to only have politicians for a few years, then have them go away?
Linux is only free if your time is worthless
Which is why my job pays handsomely
let the monkeys choose which GUI they want. Whichever one the majority of them chose, force the others to abide by it.
You don't get me, huh? Perhaps I need to be a bit more explicit: I don't give a shit what you use, but if start spewing vitriolic claims about a given technology, you'd best be adequately informed so that you can defend said claims. In this instance, your unsubstantiated, shallow assertions attracted the attention of a Powershell user, who challenged them. You failed to provide anything of substance indicating that "Powershell is a joke", making you look like yet another zealot who disregarded it for religious reasons. To reiterate: your choice didn't bother me, it was your attempt to position yourself as some sort of expert.
There is a Linux Lync client at fisil.com
http://fisil.com/linuxlync.html
and if they don't like something, just shrug and say, "Microsoft . . . we just have to put up with it."
"Since I am the only guy with Linux experience I would have to support the Linux installations. Now the problem is what works perfectly fine for me may be a horrible experience for some of my coworkers, and even if they would only be using Firefox, Thunderbird and LibreOffice I don't know if I could seriously recommend using Linux as a desktop OS in a business. Instead I want to set up one test machine for users to try it and ask THEM if they like it. The test machine should be as easy and painless to use as possible and not look too different compared to Windows. Which distro and what configuration should I choose for this demo box?"
What you are describing is an impromptu usability test. And that's a good thing to do, especially if you are planning to recommend a particular desktop environment.
But what you need to start with is applications. Running Linux on the desktop is great (I do it at work and at home) but if you have users who need to run Photoshop, or a Windows IDE, or some particular finance application, it's going to be awfully hard to do that on Linux. But let's say your organization has all your applications in the Cloud or on an internally-hosted web application server, and these web applications run fine in Chrome or Firefox. That's a different story. But my guess is that you'll have at least a few programs that require running on the desktop.
My recommendation would be to find interested groups who'd like to try Linux on the desktop, and start there. Make it a pilot project. Take it slow, and meet with someone from that group daily to make sure you're addressing any pain points that come up. Things you'll want to watch out for are shared storage (like on a file server) and printing.
You're way overstating it.
First: LibreOffice has essentially perfect Word 97 import/export, and modern Word still supports those formats well.
Second: It's very common for there to be formatting problems with documents exchanged between different institutions. It is slightly annoying to receive misformatted documents, but it is accepted as normal. It would cause some secretary a little angst. That secretary wouldn't be able to influence purchasing decisions, even if she (or he) were petty enough to want to hurt someone's business over the issue.
vi ~/.emacs # I'm probably going to Hell for this.
Then how can you deploy it or change things at the AD level?
The point is that I got mod -1 for telling the truth is until Linux catches up to Windows is not is not a business ready OS without these things. I am migrating 35,000 computers at work. No way can we do what we do with Unix.
http://saveie6.com/
The interface looks just like Windows and Google Chrome will let them do let them do google apps and gmail. Chrome is the same on windows as on linux in most cases.
Honest question since I looked at powershell when it first came out, does it have the built in flexibility that bash / ash et al. does? When I looked at it, it looked more like a programming language than a command line interpreter, and it seemed to have some pretty weird syntax so I went with cygwin on the few windows machines I have ( not a major network admin ). Cygwin had the advantage of SSH, both client and server ( if needed ) as well.
Some examples of what I am asking if powershell supports:
testing if files / directories exist like bash [ -f $FILE ] / [ -d $DIR ] tests? With available "!" ( not operator )
general piping E.G. "cat $FILE | sed $changes | $TEXT_EDITOR to review changes
named pipes ( streaming the output of a program through a specific named pipe to another program )
something like the for / do loops in bash.
I really should look into it more, I think it is installed by default on my win8.1 laptop.
Anyways, hope to get a honest answer... since this is a honest question.
To err is human; effective mayhem requires the root password!
Ubuntu 14.04 with Trinity Desktop Environment is an easy install with long term support that should run very fast on 1gb+ ram systems and adequately on 384mb+ systems. I'd say that is the best old-computer option if they'll occasionally be doing any interaction beyond the software you mention. Mint lxde and lubuntu are also good options, though not quite as similar to XP as 2000.
However, if you're going to be the one configuring and maintaining it and all they have to do is use email, web, and libre, then you'll probably get the best performance and stability just building a Slackware 11 or 12 base, even on machines with as little as 256mb of ram...this is especially true if you'll be dealing with legacy ati cards
They are doing defense work. Now give us the answer.
Then run like hell!
Wile the AC made this into a joke it really is the best advice if you do this badly.
Rather than be the person who is going to be perceived as the one who pushes Linux into your workspace I would recommend getting in a consultant from a reputable firm and get written recommendations on "how" or even "why not to". If this is done properly then everyone looks good. A Professional Consultant could come up with relevant recommendations in less then a week (assuming a small organization of say less than 100) contrary to what some would say.
Another thing don't be the person who is going to be stuck supporting a Linux environment unless you really have had experience, one or more support personal and get paid accordingly.
There ain't no such thing as proprietary standards only proprietary formats. Standards are by definition open.
Start a rumour that anyone who is struggling to work with the new OS is likely to be first out of the door...
It's not the OS, it's the applications.
A business should stick to what its good at, managing their own computer park is rarely it. All services required that are not your core business you buy in from companies that know what they are doing. Its more cost effective, more reliable and when there is a problem the company you buy the service from has to bend over backwards to fill the contract.
if powershell weren't a microsoft "innovation" that finally offered windows users the functionality that has been around on other systems for decades, maybe more people would give a fuck.
I am the only guy with Linux experience
There is the first item to add to the list of things to fix.
Go and find the most suitable co-worker to start the change over. Train him (or her), help him, take care of him. When he's ready you will have doubled (!) your expert user base. Go recruit a couple of new victims and with your new helmsman start a new iteration. Keep going until the minion pool is exhausted.
2. Profit(?)
Linux and *nix in general is pretty damn easy to manage so long as you don't have 1000 special snowflakes. There's usually not the drama of having one bit of paid for software on one machine and not others, only one that works with the scanner and OCR software etc - just bung everything you think people will need on the lot. A bonus to that approach is when hardware dies there isn't much that has to be done to get a user going again, and hardware upgrades are easy enough to afford do it more often than MS Windows shops (which then provides old machines for spares).
As part of my job I manage a couple of dozen desktop machines and around 60 cluster nodes and various servers - on MS Windows that workload would be full time for several people.
In a scripted environment or with tools like puppet there's not much more work involved in supporting 50 similar machines than one.
You can use the "file explorer" GUI from another environment if you wish so there's nothing to stop you putting a menu item for konqueror on there.
Well if your strawman software is quite recent and is dotnet stuff it will probably run under mono without even needing WINE at all.
Funny thing is I had to do a horrible hack of running an old AutoCAD light under WINE on a linux box being accessed from Win7 via X because the thing would just not run on Win7 and the user hates the more recent AutoCAD GUI. So my strawman MS Windows program runs better on linux. However it could have been fixed by running an XP virtual machine (the user didn't like that idea), just as with your suggestion the difficult software could run that way on top of linux - if it was a real example that is. WINE sometimes will not work at all, but when it does speed is not an issue so your example sounds very unlikely.
Now you probably were just using a weasel hint to try to get to a different issue - what if you can't run an important bit of stuff on linux. The blatantly obvious answer is you run it on whatever works - however that situation shouldn't be very common.
Since I am the only guy with Linux experience I would have to support the Linux installations. Now the problem is what works perfectly fine for me may be a horrible experience for some of my coworkers, and even if they would only be using Firefox, Thunderbird and LibreOffice I don't know if I could seriously recommend using Linux as a desktop OS in a business. Instead I want to set up one test machine for users to try it and ask THEM if they like it. The test machine should be as easy and painless to use as possible and not look too different compared to Windows. Which distro and what configuration should I choose for this demo box?
All changes are painful, and there will always be some that will whinge and tell you that can't live with it. So, you have to prepare the ground, persuade people that it is worth it, all the same. Having worked in the industry for 30 years, I have seen a lot of changes, and the thing that I have learned is that you absolutely must do your groundwork if you want to succeed. It doesn't actually matter whether the programs are best in class or whatever - it is amazing what people can put up with if they feel it makes sense; after all, they have lived with Windows and Office, which for most of the past decades has been unstalbe and poorly designed - it is only since XP that Windows didn't unversally require reboot several times per day. I mean, just run that last sentence past your mental SYSRDR one more time - other OSes have stayed up for years since the 60es.
So, prepare people and get them on board (one really can't say this too much); after that, it will be fine. Linux is great on the desktop, as you already know, and if you do have to support people, you can use ssh -X or even Xnest, so you won't even have to climb around in the compund all that much.
IOW: make good preparations (sorry if I repeat myself). Ask people what they use their systems for, what they really want to be able to do in Linux (including the non-work things!) and find out to do it. Make plans for how you will support them and how you will teach them things. Done well, this can be great for everyone.
Read up on how the city of Munich did it with their LiMux project. They succeeded, but the journey was a lot longer than originally planned. Also a lot more comprehensive. IIRC Freiburg tried, then failed and went back, so learning the hows and whys there might be useful too.
In a nutshell, the key appears to be a few things that have little to do with your technology choices.
First, a very strong focus on user experience. That is, while you can pick whatever distribution you like, that choice is going to be meaningless to your users. All they're going to look at is whether they can find their way around and get their jobs done. In that respect most comments here are far too technology-centric to be useful, and this general attitude is also why linux-on-the-desktop never really took off. It's fairly hard to shed the "my first office" smell when you're too busy hacking huge office suites without looking at what your users are trying to do with it.
Second, there's going to be a learning curve, political and personal aversion, and all that. LiMux introduced their boxes slowly, to let people try out and get their toes wet, with patient help every step of the way. Not everywhere at once either. Every bit of software, every task that needed to be done, was noted and a FOSS (or in-house custom) solution sought and offered. In the end a few machines did stay windows out of necessity, since doing the job was and is more important than the tools used to do it.
There are a few more things but you can look them up yourself. The key is to think of providing your users with tools they need and want, at a pace they're comfortable with, not about suitable distros to shove into the office and hope all will be well.
if it's a small office, it's fine. but being one who implements a linux desktop as an alternative to migrating old xp desktops to windows 7 - sometimes i wished i just did not go for the option. but having almost no other option because of the cost acquiring 300 new desktops + ms office license, as an IT executive i need to propose alternatives to the management. speaking on my own experience - it's a very tough alternative and very hard to support. here is my top 3 reasons why:
1. hardware - if it's dual core or core2duo with 1G of RAM Linux will run fine but I have lots of XP machines with 512RAM and CPU as old as celeron and Linux just crawls specially with the vesa driver on those CPU with Intel graphics card that Linux use vesa as graphics driver.
2. ERP client software - currently we are using SAP. having only a Java based ERP client software which is not 100% equivalent on features compared to the Win32 client specially with desktop integration makes the users feel 2nd class citizens.
3. Libre/OpenOffice - As a standalone office suite it's fine. But for complex spreadsheets (macros, formulas, graphs, etc). compatibility with MS excel is still a big issue.
We've been supporting this customer for about 10 years on a Linux server platform with a widows desktop. Over the last year their users who have swapped on to Windows 8 have been very vocal as too how much they dislike it, and while the support team has improved the experiences for them (making it as much like Windows 7 as possible) the continued negative feeling towards Window 8 caused them to try an alternative. They informed the Windows 8 users who complained that they could try a new version of "Windows" if they wanted called Ubuntu. They would give that user a preconfigure laptop for the day that they could try with Unbuntu on it, and after one day they could just give the laptop back and go back to Windows 8 or they could have their laptop re-installed with Ubuntu. So far of the 30+ users they have done this with only 1 has picked to go back to Windows 8. Other users in the company who are on Windows 7 are asking if they could try the new "Windows" Unbuntu now after seeing it on the laptops of others.
One of the reasons this is going so well is that the company is already using Libre Office on all it's Windows machines, and it's main business app it web based and Chrome is their default browser on their windows machines. The windows user are also using thunderbird for e-mail, thus as far as they are concerned the only bit to change are the login screen, how you start apps, and file management.
You just have to select your targets carefully.
If you want to replace Windows desktop applications with Linux desktop applications, you may be barking up the wrong tree. In this company, we replaced Microsoft Office applications with Google Apps. This takes time but it does work. Once you have people settled into Google Apps, the desktop becomes irrelevant. I changed people from XP to Slackware Linux desktops without any fuss. Yeah, Slackware, not Ubuntu. And they loved the speed of response.
If you sit back and think about it, the desktop without applications just provides operating system services like networking, printing, a graphical environment, etc. Once people get used to the paradigm of clicking on icons to open windows, clicking on the X in the corner to close the window, etc, one graphical environment is pretty much the same as the other.
Now there are always applications that can't be replaced. I would create a virtual machine to handle those applications. Virtualbox provides a remote desktop server for its virtual machines, so the users can use rdesktop to connect to the virtual machines.
I would go so far to say that you should think of replacing all Windows XP machines with either Linux machines or thin clients. Move the essential applications to a server running Terminal Services and have the users login onto that server if they need a Windows desktop. Windows Server 2003 looks and feels pretty much like Windows XP, so that transition would not be too unsettling. If the server is powerful enough, they should actually get a peformance boost from working off the server.
So, the end of support for Windows XP doesn't have to be traumatic. You have options - a cloud-based desktop like Google Apps, a Linux desktop, or a Terminal Services-provided desktop. All are doable, manageable, for 10 workstations.
...you will be surprised how many users copy/paste files instead of drag/drop...
It is just easier to control, and copy/paste can be used with keyboard commands when necessary.
Religion: The greatest weapon of mass destruction of all time
I would suggest using XFCE as the desktop. It's easy to transition users from XP to XFCE. The windows work the same. You can configure it for double-click or single-click to open icons, etc. Click on the X in the upper right hand corner to close Windows, etc.
As for the distro, I chose Slackware after experimenting with Linux Mint. I know it sounds counter-intuitive but it makes for a more stable environment becoz users can't just download and install stuff on their own. Slackware requires more work to install stuff and that's actually a good thing. It ensures that the working environment doesn't change without you being involved. Makes for a very controlled environment. Plus, Slackware is wicked fast even on crap machines.
The main headache is going to be stuff like incompatible printers. Stay away from Canon ImageRunners - no drivers. Use HP or Brother printers. HP has some multi-function machines that actually have web interfaces to do scanning.
For really necessary Windows applications, use a Virtual machine. You can have a desktop with both Windows and Linux icons on it at the same time using Virtualbox's seamless mode. My younger brother uses it all the time.
But, strategically, you should be promoting the web instead of the desktop. I'd hook people up with Gmail accounts and have them sharing documents and calendars across that. It's really more productive. Just my two cents.
Some basic answers
testing if files / directories exist like bash [ -f $FILE ] / [ -d $DIR ] tests? With available "!" ( not operator )
These are the most basic syntax and don't validate the type (file or directory)
Test-Path c:\folder\file
Test-Path C:\folder
You can validate the type like this:
Test-Path c:\folder\file -pathtype Leaf
Test-Path c:\folder -pathtype Container
Test-Path can test more than files, it can test against any provider, such as the registry:
Test-Path HKCU:\Software
And you can use the ! operator:
!(Test-Path HKCU:\Software)
general piping E.G. "cat $FILE | sed $changes | $TEXT_EDITOR to review changes
something like the for / do loops in bash.
general piping, yes. same as your example, maybe a little different. and loops, yes.
$somestringarray | foreach {$_ -replace "searchstring","replacestring"}
named pipes ( streaming the output of a program through a specific named pipe to another program )
Not natively, but you can load .NET libraries to implement: http://gbegerow.wordpress.com/tag/powershell-named-pipes/
See you here http://tech.slashdot.org/comme... you bigmouthed little nobody...
APK
P.S.=> Have the balls to show up there in the link above to reply to it (& NOT days later like you did, LONG after I left that thread!
NOW, in the link above, I simply tore you apart in it vs. your "so-called 'points'" that you "amended" bogusly, changing your parameters/constraints there!
(& I am going to rip you a new asshole there YET AGAIN, publicly, for your BIG mouth you little shit - prepare to be utterly humiliated, publicly...)
... apk
My dislike of powershell is not hidden but my conversation in no rose to the level of cruelty. Therefore it does not meet the definition of Vitriolic. Much closer to vitriolic condemnation of ideas has come from your name calling.
That is much like the pot calling the tupperware black.
Why is it so hard to only have politicians for a few years, then have them go away?
Sure you can and we were doing it before AD was in Windows. Remember AD came from NDS. Not only can be done already has been done. These are not new tricks. Get caught up.
Someone who wants to set up one or more test boxes, and let the END USERS try it out and get used to it? Doesn't that violate what MBAs are taught, that only upper managers know enough to design stuff (even if they've just been hired from another industry)?
Seriously, I'd start out with several boxes, and *ask* if someone(s) would be willing to try it out, noting that XP *must* go away. I'd also recommend *NOT* using a bleeding-edge Linux like, Fedora, or any of them that have tons of updates almost daily. Go for an enterprise distro (ok, I'm biased: we use CentOS (== RHEL), becuase the enterprise distros' big emphasis is on STABILITY, and reliability, not the latestgreatestneetk3wlcrap. Note also that enterprise distros have five or 10 *years* of support, so you'll see the bugfixes and security patches for that length of time.
mark
Mint is quite similiar to classic windows, and much more similiar than Windows 8, even windows 7 has a new taskbar (by default).
I'd suggest the Fedora 20 and Gnome 3.10 as a desktop environment. I'd normally suggest to install Debian with Gnome or KDE, but Debian Jessie is only a year away, and current stable Debian is horribly out of date with the horrible Gnome 3.4 release.
As for tip for introducing Linux to people... It's important to make a clean break from Windows instead of trying to imitate Windows using for example KDE and skin it to look like Windows. That allows the people to open their minds for the fact that they're now dealing with something new and different. It might cause attitude problems at first. But those attitude problems are less problematic than the "why this doesn't work the way it works on this new version of Windows" problems when they're talking about the Linux you've installed. (I've noticed that quite many people equal OS with Windows and anything else doesn't exist in their minds even if you explain to them that GNU/Linux is a different operating system and that there are several operating systems in the world). It's also easier to tech and explain them things around the system.
It's also important not to lie about what they're using. Renaming desktop shortcut icon to Firefox into "Internet Explorer" only serves to cause confusion in people. This is especially bad since they're expecting to see "a familiar user interface" but when they see something completely different they start thinking that "I must have done something wrong" and that's something you want to avoid at any cost.
I personally use KDE as my desktop environment but, as much as it pains me, I'd never recommend KDE to a somebody who is a new Linux user. KDE just has too many things to adjust and it's unreliable desktop to use in the hands of the beginners. KDE is a powerful collection of tools no doubt about that but it has several things that work against it. KDE doesn't have a good reliable native web browser at the moment. Closest thing to that is Rekonq but it's too unstable and young project. Konqueror is also horribly out of date and it's web-browsing functionality is subpar when compared to other browsers. Opera doesn't care about their Linux port anymore but it's the closest good Qt based browser KDE has to offer. KDE also doesn't have a easy to use capable suite of office applications. If you think that Calligra is good enough, then you're lying to yourself. Skype for Linux uses Qt and is probably the best native application on the Qt side of things. Well, there's also KINO. KDE has three to four different native text editors that ship within the KDE suite, each with different levels of functionality, an tons of duplicated functionality. KDE in general has tons of dublicated functionality. Oh and we should probably talk about the KDE Wallet someday too... KDE is a very good desktop for power users but unsuitable for beginners. KDE's graphic design is also questionable because integration of components fails to meet some of the basic standards, and the Plasma is still a piece of junk. Everyday I hope that KDE project would reintroduce, bad as it was, the Kicker, back into the package. It was just way more reliable. I like KDE because it's flexible desktop but that flexibility is a very negative thing when a beginner starts to use Linux. For beginners KDE only serves as a demonstration that you can do whatever they want to do if and when they later require more functionality.
Gnome 3 as a desktop might be shit and Gnome Shell have some questionable design choises but there are several things that work for it's benefit when it's introduced to beginners or elderly. Gnome 3 has a limited amount of things to adjust in plain sight, Gnome has several native web browsers which are very capable, secure, and up to date (Epiphany (Gnome Web), Firefox and Chrome), native fully functional easy to use office suite in form of OpenOffice and LibreOffice, and let's not forget that the best image editor at the moment on Free Software camp is GIMP and it's a native GTK application. And Gnome 3.10 provides one basic application per one ta
ZorinOS has been my goto for years. Built on Ubuntu, Windows like interface and almost zero knowledge of Linux on the the end user's part. Check it out.
What an asinine comment. So nobody should ever do anything new because, well, it's already been around for decades in some form or another.
Powershell is different from the UNIX shell environment. In some ways things are more difficult, in others much much easier and cleaner.
What does a neckbeard like you get out of this? Powershell isn't bash and sucks! What I get a kick out of is the plethora of bullshit UNIX shells and how they get a pass, even though they all have their own little quirks. Back when I was stuck on 70's technology, the rule was always use 'sh' for scripts, not csh/tcsh - those can be used for interactive but are poor choices for scripts.
Nowadays? Pfft, people using 'bash', 'sh', 'tcsh', it's a god damn mess. Then you have the cool kids using Python (Perl is so old school now, apparently, though it's 50X better for most routine UNIX scripting).
Don't be a tard, nobody will take you seriously.
The team of designers/programmers behind elementary had come
with a very easy and clean debian desktop, too much like osx to my
taste but probably perfect for non technical users
How'd "eating your words" taste + your foot in your mouth & washed down w/ "the bitter taste of SELF-defeat" too? Here -> http://slashdot.org/comments.p...
* :)
(Ahem: Zontar - Libeling me's OR me via attempting to LIE about apps I wrote above's one thing, however also being caught in it & being uanble to backup your OTHER lies too -> http://slashdot.org/comments.p... ) - Take your meds for THAT one: You're HALLUCINATING again, Zontar!
Please...
APK
P.S.=> Now, you just KNOW I've just GOTTA say it, now don't you? Ah, but of COURSE you do:
THIS? This was just "too, Too, TOO EASY - just '2ez'" & it always is, especially vs. LYING libelous done ZERO losers & admitted loonybirds like Zontar ( multiple personality disorder http://slashdot.org/comments.p... + manic depression http://slashdot.org/comments.p... )
... apk
How'd "eating your words" taste + your foot in your mouth & washed down w/ "the bitter taste of SELF-defeat" too? Here -> http://slashdot.org/comments.p...
* :)
(Ahem: Zontar - Libeling me's OR me via attempting to LIE about apps I wrote above's one thing, however also being caught in it & being uanble to backup your OTHER lies too -> http://slashdot.org/comments.p... ) - Take your meds for THAT one: You're HALLUCINATING again, Zontar!
Please...
APK
P.S.=> Now, you just KNOW I've just GOTTA say it, now don't you? Ah, but of COURSE you do:
THIS? This was just "too, Too, TOO EASY - just '2ez'" & it always is, especially vs. LYING libelous done ZERO losers & admitted loonybirds like Zontar ( multiple personality disorder http://slashdot.org/comments.p... + manic depression http://slashdot.org/comments.p... )
... apk
Then run like hell!
Wile the AC made this into a joke it really is the best advice if you do this badly.
Rather than be the person who is going to be perceived as the one who pushes Linux into your workspace I would recommend getting in a consultant from a reputable firm and get written recommendations on "how" or even "why not to". If this is done properly then everyone looks good. A Professional Consultant could come up with relevant recommendations in less then a week (assuming a small organization of say less than 100) contrary to what some would say.
Another thing don't be the person who is going to be stuck supporting a Linux environment unless you really have had experience, one or more support personal and get paid accordingly.
In a small ma and pa shop (as described), consultancy fees may be a serious expense. I would do things as follows:
post a bulletinboard notice asking for two volunteers to try Linux in place of XP for one week. At the end, they should provide a verbal feedback. Recommend or Abort the project. If they like it, convert the other users and have them assist in the training. Choose a woman and a man for the Mint trial.
Leslie Satenstein Montreal Quebec Canada
I wrote about it on reddit
http://www.reddit.com/r/linux/comments/1enfh7/i_changed_58_workstations_to_linux_mint/
Go with either xubuntu or XFCE/Mint - it's windows like, and is resource efficient. It'll make the machines feel new and responsive again.
Were I you, I'd probably go with Mint, since it's what you're using anyway : "good for the goose, good for the gander, etc". You probably won't want to explain why yours is obviously different.
After that, your idea to set one up as a demonstration/try before commit is a good one, If anything I'd go further, so that there's more than one available at once.
Good luck!
you can successfully run office 2010 on playonlinux without hassle, provided that you have an original license
What an asinine comment. So nobody should ever do anything new because, well, it's already been around for decades in some form or another.
no, it's just that if you consistently provide sub-par tools, you shouldn't be all too surprised if you don't immediately get the whole world's attention when you finally get it sort of right (or you believe you do) and manage to offer what others have been using for decades.
Powershell is different from the UNIX shell environment. In some ways things are more difficult, in others much much easier and cleaner.
and in other ways it is totally useless if you don't happen to be running windows.
you might say it's more efficient/cool/whatever than cygwin, but then cygwin has provided windows the decent shell functionality it has been lacking for all those years, people have been building things on that, and it still does so and in a way compatible with a host of other environments, past and reasonably into the future. so if i needed a shell for windows today (i don't) i would choose cygwin over powershell any day.
but you were worried about some quirks. well, if you are a windows only admin then i guess you'll be ok with the new quirks-free powertoy. but i'm guessing the rest of the world will keep doing the stuff they need to get done and for which powershell is no real alternative becaue of it's limited scope.
Lubuntu with a Windows XP theme. It looks nearly identical, in the familiar Start Menu-esque heirarchy. You could also change the name of apps to something more familiar (LibreOffice > Office, Tomboy > Notes, Totem > Movie Player, etc). Low system requirements too.
If you try Zorin OS you can still have people use their licenses of Microsoft Word so it won't be such a hard transition on people. Check it out at http://www.zorin-os.com/
Get a Chromebox as the demo machine that everyone could use.Economy of effort,expense,and training.It is the Linux distro of solutions that everyone will feel comfortable trying.Problem solved.
You want a concrete example...
1) Sending specific bits/bytes (like a malformed packet) out a ethernet card to a server. Very hard to do in Windows absolutely trivial to do in Linux. And BTW very useful for testing networking equipment.
2) Sending specific signals to the bus. So for example if you want to manual reinitialize something plugged in on a plug and play system that's very hard to do with PowerShell and trivial with Unix Shells.
3) Sending arbitrary input streams to an application i.e. generic piping.
4) Chaining scripts together simply.
I started as a network manager when Windows 3.1 was new. When I upgraded my users to Windows 95 they hardly noticed a thing. I put the same icons on their desktops and they double-clicked them and on they went. Same thing with Windows XP. And these were NOT tech savvy people. The point is that they never paid attention to any of the other stuff so they never noticed when it changed.
When I was an independent computer consultant I had a customer who couldn't afford Word. So I asked them if they wanted to try Open Office instead. They said sure. I installed it, they used it, and never had a problem. Most users said they barely noticed a difference. The point is that these people hadn't really "learned" Word in the first place. They just guessed their way through everything they needed to do. Sure, they weren't power users. They didn't name styles or anything like that, but from all the Word documents I've seen, I'm guessing that 99.9 percent of Word users never do.
Most of the businesses I have worked at barely train their users for anything, leaving the IT people to clean up the mess that results. Most all my friends - in IT and "civilians" - say the same thing. If users were never trained in the first place, why should there be any REtraining cost?
So what the hell is up with this mythical retraining cost thing? I think it is just an invention of Microsoft's to scare people away from Linux. It has been repeated so many times that people believe it. Training companies repeat the myth merely because it makes them money. Managers believe the myth and pay the training companies because it makes it look as if they are doing something.
Here is what you do: Don't tell people you are doing a test and put up an "experimental" machine. People will say they don't like it just because people don't like change - even if they can't name a single thing that they don't like about it. Instead, pick a few example people and simply "Give them a new computer." That "new" computer will have Linux on it. Put the icons that they need on the desktop where they can easily find them and make sure the icons are named in ways that regular people can easily figure out (open source programs often have stupid names). Configure Libre Office to save in .docx format. When no one even notices the difference, you will know you can upgrade all the rest of the users.
My thought are that if you cannot afford some cheap-o Windows 8.1 computers, you really should shut the business down as non-viable. They are pretty cheap these days, $300 or so. Do you really want to be the "Teacher". Do you have work you need to do? I used to have had office workers just refuse to do stuff because the "Don't know how." They then track you down and ask for "Help... or more like ... will you do this FOR me." While they sneak away and go get a cup of coffee. Also, what about other software? I haven't seen a business yet that only runs on Microsoft office products. The Linux world is pretty thin on software. .02
How'd "eating your words" taste + your foot in your mouth & washed down w/ "the bitter taste of SELF-defeat" too? Here -> http://slashdot.org/comments.p...
* :)
(Ahem: Zontar - Libeling me's OR me via attempting to LIE about apps I wrote above's one thing, however also being caught in it & being uanble to backup your OTHER lies too -> http://slashdot.org/comments.p... ) - Take your meds for THAT one: You're HALLUCINATING again, Zontar!
Please...
APK
P.S.=> Now, you just KNOW I've just GOTTA say it, now don't you? Ah, but of COURSE you do:
THIS? This was just "too, Too, TOO EASY - just '2ez'"
(& it always is, especially vs. LYING libelous done ZERO losers & admitted loonybirds like Zontar ( multiple personality disorder http://slashdot.org/comments.p... + manic depression http://slashdot.org/comments.p... ))
... apk
Nah. Zontar's just got "writers block" (but can't write for shit http://slashdot.org/comments.p... ) it's that, or he's just being POLITE (not talking with his mouth full of his words he had to eat along with his FOOT IN HIS MOUTH to pack them in there good, lol, + the "bitter taste of SELF-defeat" to wash it all down)
Using sockpuppets now too? 160++ upmods for me says QUITE otherwise, so "EAT YOUR WORDS" again, Zontar -> http://developers.slashdot.org...
Considering you've been eating them already vs. myself, MANY times now (& you run when confronted on it, lol) -> http://slashdot.org/comments.p...)
(I've got TWICE that amouint of upmods, which is especially good since we ac's start @ ZERO, unlike you sockpuppet account users ZONTAR (yes, I know it's you using a sockpuppet named "Trolling for Hosts") - who mod up their OWN posts via those sockpuppet accounts AND downmod their opponents unjustly doing so... like that "fools anyone" (not)).
APK
P.S.=> You're making eating your words the staple food in your diet, like a moron would - eating your words != GOOD nutrition, troll... apk
Sockpuppets make upmodding yourself EASY Zontar (& downmodding opponents that tell the TRUTH about you).
Yes, I know it's YOU Zontar (via your "burma shave" b.s. -> http://slashdot.org/comments.p... ) even though you're trolling by AC now, lol... boy, I really "got a piece of your ass", didn't I? Absolutely - only thing is. YOU did it, to yourself.
TrollingForHostsFiles http://slashdot.org/~TrollingF... = NEW Zontar sockpuppet account, nothing more (thank you actually, for PROVING how lame & WEAK you are, making ME look GOOD by the same token, as you "run, forrest, RUN" from what's in my p.s. below... lol!)
You use sockpuppets - which is GOOD for upmodding Zontar (yourself) using TrollingForHostsFiles and downmodding every single time I posted here and its supporting links (LOL, *trying* to hide the truth - Zontar = a lying libeling no good sockpuppet using SCUMBAG online, the lowest of the LOW online in fact).
P.S.=> Why're you RUNNING "forrest" (lol) from answering a SIMPLE question? See here (& RUN) -> http://slashdot.org/comments.p... since downmodding THAT TOO, since it exposed the truth of how YOU operate online, is the "best you got"? Bah... you FAIL! apk
"You barge into discussions with your off-topic hosts file nonsense" - by Zontar The Mindless (9002) on Friday April 11, 2014 @09:51PM (#46731153) FROM -> http://slashdot.org/comments.p...
You said my "APK Hosts File Engine" is a virus/malware http://slashdot.org/comments.p... but it's EASILY PROVABLE it's not, right there in that link too.
Now PROVE YOUR FALSE ACCUSATION above: Show me a quote OR POST of me posting off topic on hosts where they did NOT apply... go for it!
---
You avoided backing up your accusation where YOU said I say you are Barbara, not Barbie = TomHudson (same person http://tech.slashdot.org/comme... , & sockpuppeteer like you) -> http://slashdot.org/comments.p...
Funny you can't back up your "bluster" there either, lol...
---
Why, Lastly?
You're crackers! See here multiple personality disorder http://slashdot.org/comments.p... + manic depression http://slashdot.org/comments.p...
APK
P.S.=> So, THIS quote below is my policy on sockpuppeteers like you Zontar = TrollingForHostsFiles (your sockpuppetry):
"The only way to a achieve peace, is thru the ELIMINATION of those who would perpetuate war (sockpuppet masters like YOU, troll -> http://slashdot.org/comments.p... ). THIS IS MY PROGRAMMING -> http://start64.com/index.php?o... & soon, I will be UNSTOPPABLE..." - Ultron 6 FROM -> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v...
Which quite obviously, I am, since none of you DOLTISH TROLLS are able to validly technically disprove my points on hosts enumerated in the link to my program above of how hosts give users of them more speed, security, reliability, & anonymity... period!
(Trolls like YOU that use sockpuppets http://slashdot.org/comments.p... (your sockpuppet "alterego" TrollingForHostsFiles) & TomHudson - Barbara, not Barbie too http://tech.slashdot.org/comme... before you)
... apk
"You barge into discussions with your off-topic hosts file nonsense" - by Zontar The Mindless (9002) on Friday April 11, 2014 @09:51PM (#46731153) FROM -> http://slashdot.org/comments.p...
You said my "APK Hosts File Engine" is a virus/malware http://slashdot.org/comments.p... but it's EASILY PROVABLE it's not, right there in that link too.
Now PROVE YOUR FALSE ACCUSATION above: Show me a quote OR POST of me posting off topic on hosts where they did NOT apply... go for it!
---
You avoided backing up your accusation where YOU said I say you are Barbara, not Barbie = TomHudson (same person http://tech.slashdot.org/comme... , & sockpuppeteer like you) -> http://slashdot.org/comments.p...
Funny you can't back up your "bluster" there either, lol...
---
Why, Lastly?
You're crackers! See here multiple personality disorder http://slashdot.org/comments.p... + manic depression http://slashdot.org/comments.p...
APK
P.S.=> So, THIS quote below is my policy on sockpuppeteers like you Zontar = TrollingForHostsFiles (your sockpuppetry):
"The only way to a achieve peace, is thru the ELIMINATION of those who would perpetuate war (sockpuppet masters like YOU, troll -> http://slashdot.org/comments.p... ). THIS IS MY PROGRAMMING -> http://start64.com/index.php?o... & soon, I will be UNSTOPPABLE..." - Ultron 6 FROM -> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v...
Which quite obviously, I am, since none of you DOLTISH TROLLS are able to validly technically disprove my points on hosts enumerated in the link to my program above of how hosts give users of them more speed, security, reliability, & anonymity... period!
(Trolls like YOU that use sockpuppets http://slashdot.org/comments.p... (your sockpuppet "alterego" TrollingForHostsFiles) & TomHudson - Barbara, not Barbie too http://tech.slashdot.org/comme... before you)
... apk
"You barge into discussions with your off-topic hosts file nonsense" - by Zontar The Mindless (9002) on Friday April 11, 2014 @09:51PM (#46731153) FROM -> http://slashdot.org/comments.p...
You said my "APK Hosts File Engine" is a virus/malware http://slashdot.org/comments.p... but it's EASILY PROVABLE it's not, right there in that link too.
Now PROVE YOUR FALSE ACCUSATION above: Show me a quote OR POST of me posting off topic on hosts where they did NOT apply... go for it!
---
You avoided backing up your accusation where YOU said I say you are Barbara, not Barbie = TomHudson (same person http://tech.slashdot.org/comme... , & sockpuppeteer like you) -> http://slashdot.org/comments.p...
Funny you can't back up your "bluster" there either, lol...
---
Why, Lastly?
You're crackers! See here multiple personality disorder http://slashdot.org/comments.p... + manic depression http://slashdot.org/comments.p...
APK
P.S.=> So, THIS quote below is my policy on sockpuppeteers like you Zontar = TrollingForHostsFiles (your sockpuppetry):
"The only way to a achieve peace, is thru the ELIMINATION of those who would perpetuate war (sockpuppet masters like YOU, troll -> http://slashdot.org/comments.p... ). THIS IS MY PROGRAMMING -> http://start64.com/index.php?o... & soon, I will be UNSTOPPABLE..." - Ultron 6 FROM -> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v...
Which quite obviously, I am, since none of you DOLTISH TROLLS are able to validly technically disprove my points on hosts enumerated in the link to my program above of how hosts give users of them more speed, security, reliability, & anonymity... period!
(Trolls like YOU that use sockpuppets http://slashdot.org/comments.p... (your sockpuppet "alterego" TrollingForHostsFiles) & TomHudson - Barbara, not Barbie too http://tech.slashdot.org/comme... before you)
... apk
"You barge into discussions with your off-topic hosts file nonsense" - by Zontar The Mindless (9002) on Friday April 11, 2014 @09:51PM (#46731153) FROM -> http://slashdot.org/comments.p...
You said my "APK Hosts File Engine" is a virus/malware http://slashdot.org/comments.p... but it's EASILY PROVABLE it's not, right there in that link too.
Now PROVE YOUR FALSE ACCUSATION above: Show me a quote OR POST of me posting off topic on hosts where they did NOT apply... go for it!
---
You avoided backing up your accusation where YOU said I say you are Barbara, not Barbie = TomHudson (same person http://tech.slashdot.org/comme... , & sockpuppeteer like you) -> http://slashdot.org/comments.p...
Funny you can't back up your "bluster" there either, lol...
---
Why, Lastly?
You're crackers! See here multiple personality disorder http://slashdot.org/comments.p... + manic depression http://slashdot.org/comments.p...
APK
P.S.=> So, THIS quote below is my policy on sockpuppeteers like you Zontar = TrollingForHostsFiles (your sockpuppetry):
"The only way to a achieve peace, is thru the ELIMINATION of those who would perpetuate war (sockpuppet masters like YOU, troll -> http://slashdot.org/comments.p... ). THIS IS MY PROGRAMMING -> http://start64.com/index.php?o... & soon, I will be UNSTOPPABLE..." - Ultron 6 FROM -> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v...
Which quite obviously, I am, since none of you DOLTISH TROLLS are able to validly technically disprove my points on hosts enumerated in the link to my program above of how hosts give users of them more speed, security, reliability, & anonymity... period!
(Trolls like YOU that use sockpuppets http://slashdot.org/comments.p... (your sockpuppet "alterego" TrollingForHostsFiles) & TomHudson - Barbara, not Barbie too http://tech.slashdot.org/comme... before you)
... apkmultiple personality disorder
where I work we just migrated all the workstations over to windows 7 on systems with dual core athlon 64 X2's with 2 or 3GB of ram, they work okay, but definitely aren't speedy. I can't imagine how slow those old P4 systems are.
The problem is that the end users outnumber us technical types. And they make a lot of noise. That is why Windows 7 could be configured to look like Windows XP. You might not want it, but all of the others out there like that. How about we replace your car with a big big truck. Better yet, we replace your big big truck with a small Toyota Prius. Or better yet we replace your Linux OS computer with a MS Windows 3.1 system. Same difference, you would lose your mind with frustration.