California Utility May Replace IT Workers with H-1B Workers

dcblogs writes: "Southern California Edison is preparing to offshore IT jobs, the second major U.S. utility in the last year to do so. It will be cutting its staff, but it hasn't said by how much. The utility is using at least two offshore outsourcing firms, according to government records. SCE's management culture may be particularly primed for firing its IT workers. Following a workplace shooting in SCE's IT offices in 2011, the utility conducted an independent audit of its organizational and management culture. One observation in this report, which was completed a year later, was that 'employees perceive managers to be more concerned about how they 'look' from above, and less concerned about how they are viewed by their subordinates. This fosters an unhealthy culture and climate by sending a message to employees that it is more important to focus on how things look from the top than how they actually are down below.'"

Comments

Not H1-Bs, offshore workers.

[HaeMaker]

If you are "offshoring" you are literally having the work performed off-shore. If they fear their jobs are getting replaced by H1-Bs, then they are "outsourcing". It would be illegal for them to fire everyone then hire H1-Bs, and even if the off-shore companies place people that all happen to be H1-B, lawsuits will follow. How can the consulting company say they couldn't find competent employees when they know a bunch that got laid-off?

Re:Not H1-Bs, offshore workers.

[Mitreya]

It would be illegal for them to fire everyone then hire H1-Bs, and even if the off-shore companies place people that all happen to be H1-B, lawsuits will follow. How can the consulting company say they couldn't find competent employees when they know a bunch that got laid-off?

The article basically claims that with employees making 60K+, the rule of "cannot find competent employees" does not apply to H1-B, so they should be ok. Does anyone know more about this loophole that the article is talking about?

Re:Not H1-Bs, offshore workers.

[pixelpusher220]

As an interesting aside, should 'utilities' providing critical infrastructure be subject to more stringent hiring requirements?

Similar to how national security jobs require a gov't clearance, should workers on critical infrastructure require similar concept of vetting?

Re:Not H1-Bs, offshore workers.

[HaeMaker]

I don't see anything here that would indicate such a loophole... http://www.uscis.gov/eir/visa-...

Re:Not H1-Bs, offshore workers.

[Anonymous Coward]

In these types of arrangements you're basically right: Most work is performed in India, however there is SOME work that is done by U.S.-based Indian workers that are possibly H1-B. I've been a part of a major outsourcing effort by an F500 - first thing the CIO did, actually, after he was hired - and this was what happened: The North American help desk - once based in Texas - was shuttered in a matter of weeks and the work went to Wipro and the application-specific support went to what was then Satiyam, whose founder-CEO later got embroiled in a big accounting scandal. Many of the Wipro staff however was definitely based in the U.S., mainly to interface with the IT execs and deal with the transition but also to stay engaged with the business. With many millions on the line annually it behooves the outsourcing entity to stay on top of their contractual agreements, which are quite detailed on any outsourcing arrangement. There were also high-level (tier III and higher) IT ops engineers (the few that actually knew what they were doing) who were also Stateside.

In any case SCE's arrangement doesn't necessarily sound like they are using H1B - from a legal perspective, anyway, but symbolically they might be.

Re:Not H1-Bs, offshore workers.

[BradMajors]

1) The government does not bother to enforce this law.
2) The law says you can not sue unless you are personally affected.

Re:Not H1-Bs, offshore workers.

[Anonymous Coward]

They will, just as soon as terrorists/other PO'ed individuals take down a major power grid or cause some other sort of catastrophe.

Re:Not H1-Bs, offshore workers.

[AlphaWolf_HK]

2) The law says you can not sue unless you are personally affected.

Well yeah, that's how tort laws have always worked. If somebody wrongs you, you the victim have to initiate a lawsuit or press charges. Your neighbor can't do it for you.

Re:Not H1-Bs, offshore workers.

[dbIII]

Critical? The Californian electricity system has been an international joke for decades. If it has improved then you'll just have to get used to all the brownouts and other supply problems again.

Re:Not H1-Bs, offshore workers.

[Anonymous Coward]

And who exactly is the H1-B police who come arrest the violators?

IMPOSSIBLE

[Billly Gates]

H1B1 Visa's are only because there are not enough applicants to fill a position. Just ask any republican and they will tell you and set the facts straight in interest of protecting the workers.

It is illegal not to pay an H1B1 Visa worker less than a qualified worker. It is stated so it must be true!

Re:IMPOSSIBLE

[Anonymous Coward]

All those damn Republican Californians!

Re:IMPOSSIBLE

[Anonymous Coward]

Go a few miles outside the cities and it is mostly Republican.

Re:IMPOSSIBLE

[Anonymous Coward]

The problem is that the race to the bottom has began, and I doubt it will end until we hit it. If it is cheaper to pay someone else to do the job, be it in another state, another country, or simply to ship in the workers they are going to do it, and if they can't do it, they will try to move the job itself to that other country or other state. Heck if they are just moving jobs to other states they can just call it a reorg and not even get any bad press about it, even though the key purpose was to surplus all those pesky highly paid workers who had devoted much of their lives to a particular company. The guys in charge are betting they can improve the balance sheet while they are there, then get a nice bonus for it, and if it all falls apart later, well they are likely gone or retired by then, so its not their problem.

Sure you could setup sane rules to minimize it, but it is not easy, or at least the politicians make it more difficult than it needs to be. For instance, if the country that your buying all this stuff from has poor environmental laws, well then that country is basically not charging what is required to clean up their own mess, so the logical thing to do is to tarrif it in a measured way so at least society can somewhat deal with the mess later, or at the very least make the playing field a touch more level. At any rate, the reason the United States can't compete with manufacturing/labor/etc is as much as anything about the unlevel playing field. We find rules about safe working conditions and pollution to be a good thing, but hapilly ignore that others are less concerned with such things if we can buy a $200 television.

The other common thing about jobs these days is companies have little loyalty to their employees, so of course their employees have little loyalty to the company either. This leads to companies always asking for employees that are tailor fit for a very obscure job, which of course they often can't find, since that job may be brand new and short term. So the company does a token search, fails to find the non existent expert on widget series 12 when combined with gear series 13 and 20 years experience with the new fad computer language that has only been out five, and of course concludes that it is H-1B time. Sure the employee may be even less skilled than those that were actually available, but hey he or she is cheap and leashed directly to the company of interest so they will spend some effort training him or her. Perhaps in the end they saved no actual money due to all the project delays, but they did save money on paper initially, and that is what is most important.

Re:IMPOSSIBLE

[ebno-10db]

Go a few miles outside the cities and it is mostly Republican.

Nevertheless CA is primarily a blue state. I'm not sticking up for the R's here - just pointing out that with many issues the D's are also busy screwing Americans. The D's whore for money too, and much of theirs comes from the tech industry. One of the few people in congress to oppose some of this H-1B crap is Chuck Grassley, who's an R.

Re:IMPOSSIBLE

[Anonymous Coward]

If only there were organized groups of laborers that were able to band together to protect each others rights.

Re:IMPOSSIBLE

[Culture20]

Don't ask what the H1N1 Visas are for.

Re:IMPOSSIBLE

[Anonymous Coward]

> H1B1 Visa's are only because there are not enough applicants to fill a position. Just ask any republican and they will tell you and set the facts straight in interest of protecting the workers.

Ironically, blue states make much heavier use of the H1-B program than red states. Those evil, evil republicans just don't use it to the same extent that those equality-loving Californians do.

Re:IMPOSSIBLE

[Eravnrekaree]

Democrats love stealing jobs from Americans as well. Democrats though particularly love victimizing and stealing jobs from low income americans by replacing them with illegal aliens. Though, Democrats i am sure are fine with the H1B program, anything other than American is preferable to them, they have such a hatred of natural born American citizens they will do anything they can to undermine them, ruin their lives, steal their jobs, etc. They will then steal your money and give it to the illegal aliens in the form of welfare fraud which democrats actually love and want.

Re:IMPOSSIBLE

[jedidiah]

Cost of living also tends to be higher in those Blue states. So this is a nice double whammy from states that are supposed to have more intrusive and effective governance.

So much for that idea...

Re:IMPOSSIBLE

[Anonymous Coward]

Just ask any republican or democrat and they will tell you and set the facts straight in interest of protecting the workers.

Fixed that for ya. But yes, you got it partially correct.

Re:IMPOSSIBLE

[Hategrin]

+1.

I live 15 miles from the Mexican border, I heard all the Liberal rhetoric when I was in college from my Govt and English professors. But you know what? All I had to do was look around and notice that the MAJORITY of the people here have 12 kids, no job, and do nothing but sit around and watch soap operas (novellas), sell/snort cocaine and benzos (they get them from the state mental health office), have a habit of using homophobic slurs and curses at their husbands/children/public, and blaming all their "problems" (anytime someone refuses a handout) on the "gringo".

It's not any better at the college level as the colleges cater to these degenerate self-inflicted morons. Every time homework was assigned all the women would all at once exclaim "aaaaaaayeee siiiiiiiiir", and the college/professors would cave in because the campus first priority is to collect as much taxpayer money (pell grants) as they possibly can. In short, democrats and their "welfare for votes aka social justice" campaign has ruined every level of our society. Democrats know this, it's no wonder they want to hire H1Bs from a non welfare state (instead of an American Community College aka idiot factory) whenever it comes to a business they themselves are invested in.

Re:IMPOSSIBLE

[Anonymous Coward]

You can have exactly the same salary and have a different net cost of employment.

Re:IMPOSSIBLE

[siddesu]

You can't do that when big corporations are truly global. There have been mechanisms in place for the past 50 years to skirt national legislation by creating a 'consensus' among weaker states abroad and then importing it back as the 'international standard'. It is a lot safer to bribe officials outside of the country, where everyone involved is answerable to nobody. It is also a lot easier to keep negotiations under wraps. Not all international standards are bad, or come about by using this scheme, of course, but those that do most of the harm are.

Re:IMPOSSIBLE

[Anonymous Coward]

Yes, but the decisions are being made by Democrats, and whatever happens in California is exclusively attributable to Democratic policies. There is simply no logical way you can blame Republicans for California's plight anymore.

Re:IMPOSSIBLE

[BobandMax]

Yes, it's those awful Republicans that hold 60%+ majorities in both California legislatures, the governorship, both US Senate seats and a majority of the Congressional seats.

Re:IMPOSSIBLE

[Anonymous Coward]

Since when does the state legislature have authority over H1B visas?

Re:IMPOSSIBLE

[RabidReindeer]

If only there were organized groups of laborers that were able to band together to protect each others rights.

Socialisms! Evil! Burn the commie witch! Only corporations are allowed to work as bands to protect their rights!

Re:IMPOSSIBLE

[RabidReindeer]

The race to the bottom started long ago.

The destruction of the worker-employer bond even longer - back in the 1980s.

Tarrifs weren't primarily about environmental responsibility, although indirectly they worked in that direction by favoring local production with its more stringent environmental regulations. But Free Trade has pretty much killed that.

1950's Republicans would probably die of apoplexy. We gave Most Favored trade status to one of the world's biggest Communist countries.

Re:IMPOSSIBLE

[Anonymous Coward]

And what exactly it is that makes you think that you are entitled to get this job over some Hindu or Chinese guy who's qualified just as well if not better, and willing to work for less? His brown skin or the fact that he was born in some communist hellhole? And liberals have the audacity to accuse conservatives of racism when they themselves throw around crap like this...

Re:IMPOSSIBLE

[BonThomme]

yes, the red states don't bother with the visas at all...

Re:IMPOSSIBLE

[Anonymous Coward]

Corporations have the upper hand in hiring, and they've proven that they will do anything they can get away with to reduce the labor side of the equation, all other considerations be damned.

When it comes to hiring, they are basically looking for cheap whores but they pore over ever detail of your background and qualifications like they're getting married or something.

Re:IMPOSSIBLE

[Fringe]

If you're going to bring politics in, at least get them right. It's the Democrats that have supported H1Bs more, probably because they get all the tech money (Google, Microsoft, etc.)

Re:IMPOSSIBLE

[Fringe]

If you're going to bring politics into a conversation, at least get it right. It's the Democrats that have been pushing the big H-1B increased. e.g. http://www.computerworld.com/s/article/9242917/House_Democrats_push_ahead_on_immigration_H_1B/

I suspect this is because the Democrats get most of the tech (Google, Microsoft, etc.) donations. But just because you're socially liberally (presumably, given your post and bias) doesn't mean you have to believe the Democrats never do wrong. Everybody does wrong at times.

Re:IMPOSSIBLE

[Anonymous Coward]

If only they actually protected anything besides the union bosses guaranteed paycheck.

Re:IMPOSSIBLE

[Anonymous Coward]

I think they're called Oligarchs.

Re:IMPOSSIBLE

[PortHaven]

CITIZENSHIP...to start...

Tech workers only?

[Anonymous Coward]

Are the management jobs safe because they provide such incredible expertise and knowledge that can only come from white people?

Re:Tech workers only?

[WillAffleckUW]

Are the management jobs safe because they provide such incredible expertise and knowledge that can only come from white people?

No, there is a growing move to outsource Lawyer jobs too.

Re:Tech workers only?

[matthewv789]

How do you know the managers aren't ALREADY from India? That was the case a couple of jobs ago for me, it was not exactly reassuring to hear from the high-level manager who was pushing for and managing the outsourcing, who happened to be Indian, that "these (offshore) people are not replacing any jobs in the US". It was completely false, of course, unless he meant that the six-month gap between each round of mass company-wide layoffs and adding more staffing to the offshore/outsource location were somehow disconnected. It really meant that each year they laid people off in the US when business slowed down, then added Indians a few months later when business picked up again. Since business was cyclical on an annual basis, it was a pretty predictable way to shift work offshore more and more each year.

Re:Tech workers only?

[matthewv789]

I should also say that, predictably, the Indian workers for the contract companies tended to rarely stay in their jobs longer than a year, so quality tended to be poor and training was a constant battle. And with a 15%+ pay increase every year (vs 2-3% in the US, in the few years they actually gave any pay increases at all), they were going to catch up eventually. But even at the time, other managers admitted privately that management and other costs ate up the difference and they weren't actually saving any money...

...which made me wonder why they continued to do it. Some kind of corruption?I always thought that after the initial wave of super-cut-rate offshore work, that I had to be missing something, not seeing something, to explain why it continued when it decreased quality and didn't save on net costs.

Re:Tech workers only?

[wytcld]

Ya know, I have utmost respect for Indian civilization. I'm a Buddhist. I have India-raised Hindu and Jain friends. But in practical terms their IT workers, who I've been dealing with extensively in several contexts in recent years, are a disaster. It's not a matter of lack of whiteness. It's a matter of a culture where excuses and laziness outweigh any sort of responsibility. Often I've been dealing with very bright people, often eloquent. But they have no idea how to solve problems in IT of the sort that Americans and Europeans may stumble around with a bit, but get solved. Some cultures are just bad at some things. For Indian culture, it's IT.

H-1B or offshore?

[qbzzt]

If you offshore a position, it is in India (for example) and you don't need an H1-B visa.

Re:H-1B or offshore?

[Anonymous Coward]

Actually, given that the top companies for H1Bs are offshoring firms, it may be a little of column A and a little of column B -- i.e., offshoring and using H1Bs to help the offshoring, or split time between countries.

Re:H-1B or offshore?

[qbzzt]

Good point. It is probably easier for people who are culturally Indian to manage workers in India from the US.

Re:H-1B or offshore?

[Anonymous Coward]

If the job IS off-shored, and then foreign workers are promptly sent in with H1-B visa to do the job, it kind of makes sense.
Not that this should be allowed..

Re:H-1B or offshore?

[Anonymous Coward]

Well, your typical Indian manager is a micro-managing idiot. Which actually kind of works, as your typical Indian worker won't do shit unless you hover over them like a helicopter. Though at the end of the day, you just have two layers of incompetence instead of one.

hey, check out Yemen Systems Associates

[swschrad]

they're offshore, they're cheaper than dust, and they're all religious fanatics. can't offshore more thoroughly than that for life-critical, society-critical infrastructure.

you guys, really, your ties are way, way too tight.

Outsourcing! Management Sux! What?!?

[Virtucon]

This is an outrage! Companies outsourcing jobs overseas! Management is concerned about perception rather than substance!

What fucking decade are we living in here folks?!? This isn't news but it is confirmation that US companies are full of douche bags.

Good luck with that

[Anonymous Coward]

Has anyone, anywhere, seen an instance where a move like this actually works out well? I sure haven't. Communication issues, poor worker training and expertise, high turnover. The 'savings' look good on paper, but in the end it's a disaster.

Re:Good luck with that

[pixelpusher220]

Worked well enough for my Dad at Xerox. Granted he got laid off for a couple years but got rehired when it went to shit and got quite the hefty raise and extra retirement out of the deal :)

Not a plan I'd recommend obviously, but hey :)

Re:Good luck with that

[BradMajors]

Yes. For a company that was really badly managed I have seen off-shoring chunks of work to India work. Basically because the Indian project management was better than the American project management.

Re:Good luck with that

[AHuxley]

Re Has anyone, anywhere, seen an instance where a move like this actually works out well?
Think of the banana republic model and the way the USA looked after South and Central America over many decades.
Experts arrived, products and services where imported, the raw materials where exported and local wages kept down.
Shareholders in the US got to enjoy generational wealth and their `"trust" funds grew.
The system works great, you just have to adjust to the role of seasonal shanty town worker or at best an on call technician - local middle class engineering is just too costly in todays networked world.

Re:Good luck with that

[dbIII]

Re Has anyone, anywhere, seen an instance where a move like this actually works out well?

Yes. A government department near me fired everyone to be immediately hired by the contracting company they outsourced to, work was not disrupted, the contracting company made a mint, and they were so happy with it that they gave very expensive gifts to the people in government that signed off on it. So it worked out well for some.
The taxpayers funding it out course are screwed and the employees transferred over effectively took a pay cut by loss of benefits, but it worked out well for some utter weasels until most of the staff left. Replacing them with the cheapest warm bodies available resulted in disruption of services.
Similar things happen in large enough companies in private enterprise as well.

Re:Good luck with that

[Anonymous Coward]

As the saying goes, "I encourage my competitors to do this."

Re:Good luck with that

[Anonymous Coward]

Has anyone, anywhere, seen an instance where a move like this actually works out well? I sure haven't. Communication issues, poor worker training and expertise, high turnover. The 'savings' look good on paper, but in the end it's a disaster.

When I worked at Cadence Design Systems we had development teams all over the wold. Multiple US sites, England Ireland Europe, Russia, Imdia, China Japan. We were developing high end EDA, CAE, CAD software for electronic designers. Each development group worked on their own product and the core components like database , UI, integration and such were done here in Silicon Valley. I was a software architect and racked up 370,000 frequent flyer miles just one airline that I flew about half time. It was a great job. Cadence made shitwads of money.

Tata!

[QilessQi]

Northeast Utilities, last fall, announced it was outsourcing part of its IT operations to Infosys and another Indian-based IT services giant, Tata Consultancy Services.

I'm sure they were the breast candidate for the task.

Re:Tata!

[nobuddy]

Anectdote:
I was in Kandahar and I saw this large breasted Army girl leaning on a new pickup. It was a Tata, and sitting right next to an identical one.
I could not resist.
"Nice tatas!"

Re:Tata!

[simishag]

Well, they did say "it is more important to focus on how things look from the top than how they actually are down below".

they couldn't have just read Dilbert?

[YesIAmAScript]

'employees perceive managers to be more concerned about how they 'look' from above, and less concerned about how they are viewed by their subordinates. This fosters an unhealthy culture and climate by sending a message to employees that it is more important to focus on how things look from the top than how they actually are down below.'

You don't need to commission an expensive report to find out stuff like this. It's so universal it's seen everywhere.

Heck, Scott Adams who writes Dilbert was employed by Pacific Bell, which is not so completely different than Southern California Edison.

Re:they couldn't have just read Dilbert?

[Tablizer]

It's so universal it's seen everywhere.

Managers should also be formally judged by their underlings. If they score low or fail to improve in problem categories, they get docked pay.

It can be an anonymous survey with 20 or so categories such as "Shows respect to me (employee)", "Explains my tasks clearly", "Listens to and thoughtfully considers my opinion", "Gives me meaningful and relevant work", "Explains the purpose of my work in terms of organizational goals", etc.

So what they're really saying.

[rmdingler]

Southern California Edison has collectively determined that it is impossible to change the work atmosphere from the top down,

so they'll be needing to import some workers who are better suited to the type of shop they run:

Work the hands like a rented mule.

Re:So what they're really saying.

[ImprovOmega]

Yeah it's a funny thing - management screwed up, obviously the solution is to fire all of the workers.

note that the 'workplace shooting' citation...

[turkeydance]

will now outsource to whereverstan.

Re:note that the 'workplace shooting' citation...

[Anonymous Coward]

SCE's management culture may be particularly primed for firing its IT workers. Following a workplace shooting in SCE's IT offices in 2011

This is an unintentionally funny pair of sentences. Perhaps the management and IT workers might sign a cease-fire eventually, or at least when the next organizational transformation consultant has decimated both the management and the workers.

What is with humans and fixing symptoms

[Anonymous Coward]

not the underlying root cause.
employees perceive managers to be more concerned about how they 'look' from above, and less concerned about how they are viewed by their subordinates. This fosters an unhealthy culture and climate by sending a message to employees that it is more important to focus on how things look from the top than how they actually are down below.'
So, instead of fixing their culture of mistrusted management, management instead replaces all of the people who don't trust them with people who are just happy to have a job. It's like a metaphor for everything humanity touches.

Re:What is with humans and fixing symptoms

[Anonymous Coward]

Its prolly more about not giving a fuck about the cause - the 'symptoms' are negative people in the lower ranks who care about the poor performance of management, or the poor delivery of quality to the customer. Sadly, not making that up. Management run around making themselves look good at any cost. The lower ones with some idea of whats going on get ostracised for being complainers if they point out problems. Get rid of em, off shore it that'll show em.

What is an H-1B worker?

[angel'o'sphere]

?
We germans have no idea :)

Re:What is an H-1B worker?

[byteherder]

A H-1B worker is a worker on a temporary work visa in the U.S. They are usually IT workers.

Company bring them in claiming they cannot find 'qualified' U.S. worker but really do it just to hire cheaper foreign labor.

Re:What is an H-1B worker?

[rmdingler]

If your job pays you a decent living there is some chance it could be outsourced, generally across a border, to save the company from having to provide you and yours that extravagant middle class existence. The Acronym for this phenomenon = H-1B

Re:What is an H-1B worker?

[PolygamousRanchKid]

Gastarbeiter

Talk of creating an H-1B program in Germany a while back created a backlash phrase: "Leiber Kinder statt Inder!"

Re:What is an H-1B worker?

[ebno-10db]

Translation?

Re:What is an H-1B worker?

[ebno-10db]

I think it'd help to mention that temporary means 3-6 years, and that losing your job means losing your legal immigration status in the US. It's also very difficult for H-1B's to change jobs. They're wonderfully captive labor.

Re:What is an H-1B worker?

[Anonymous Coward]

Better have children than Indians.

In German it rhymes.

Re:What is an H-1B worker?

[PolygamousRanchKid]

Gast = Guest, Arbeiter = Worker . . . so Gastarbeiter = Guest-worker. If you liked playing with Lego, you'll love German.

"Lieber Kinder statt Inder!" means, Rather children instead of Indians! Which meant that the government should pay more attention to social programs encouraging working women to have children, and investing more in tech training for German students . . . instead of importing (cheap) foreign talent.

Of course, the whole plan was a ruse by companies who wanted to drive down the wages of IT workers.

Re:What is an H-1B worker?

[Anonymous Coward]

And this is why they work long weeks without complaints.

Re:What is an H-1B worker?

[Anonymous Coward]

No it's not at all difficult for a H1-B worker to change jobs. Why do people keep saying that?

1. Interview and find a better job just like anyone else (higher paying, better conditions\benefits, betting project, all of the above)
2. New employer puts transfer paperwork in the mailbox to the government (really just a notification)
3. Move to new employer

Re:What is an H-1B worker?

[Anonymous Coward]

ps: source - I hire H1-B workers (and US citizens, and workers on various other work visas) that are moving from other US companies all the time.

Re:What is an H-1B worker?

[Anonymous Coward]

You forget they actually produce and are far more hardworking than the lazy locals. It isn't just money (salaries are a fraction of an entire budget), it is competent employees that are obtained that do the work that the locals refuse or shirk.

Re:What is an H-1B worker?

[stenvar]

It's also worth mentioning that they are paid a lot more here than wherever they come from. And they are going to work in IT either way. If we don't bring them here, they are going to compete with us from abroad, pay taxes abroad, work cheaper, and help build competing industries elsewhere.

Furthermore, it is not that difficult for H-1B's to change jobs or get green cards these days, and many of them immigrate. Conversely, for employment based immigration, almost everybody starts off as an H-1B, so killing off H-1Bs at this point kills of most employment-based immigration.

Re:What is an H-1B worker?

[m00sh]

I think it'd help to mention that temporary means 3-6 years, and that losing your job means losing your legal immigration status in the US. It's also very difficult for H-1B's to change jobs. They're wonderfully captive labor.

H1Bs are not temporary visa. They are visa meant for immigration and has a path leading to a green card. The only problem is that getting the green card for Indian and Chinese nationals is hard because 95% of H1B applicants are from India and China and the US has a 9% limit on the number of immigrants granted from one single country. If you are from say a country like England, you can get H1B to green card under 1 year. India and China can be as long as 5-10 years.

Also, losing your job part has been fixed over one and half decades ago. You can get a new job on the same visa. There actually is a huge incentive for recruiters to find unhappy H1B workers because they have passed through the difficult culture shock part and have gained experience making them more valuable.

There is a considerable amount of favoritism in the job market. I know US citizens who came through the path of H1Bs from India or China will seek to find people from the same paths of life after they become managers and senior engineers when they should clearly only use H1B as a final resort after not finding absolutely any local talent. But, that exists in every job market. I have seen development groups that are all exclusively Chinese or all exclusively Indian precisely for that reason. But, if it functions well for the company then I guess its fine.

Re:Outsourcing! Management Sux! What?!?

[gandhi_2]

The labor market is a market. They have labor to supply.
Borders don't keep the jobs in any more than they keep people out.

Ahh Yes the trend continues..

[bobbied]

First, we lost manufacturing jobs.... Then the engineering jobs started going off shore. So why are we surprised when the IT jobs do too?

I feel for the youngsters coming out of college with a STEM degree these days. Huge student loan debt and fewer and fewer prospects..

Re:Ahh Yes the trend continues..

[rmdingler]

There are still advantages to employing local workers in most countries (including the U.S.) but until the playing field levels out a bit,

the discrepancy is too great between what the rich nation's populace is willing to work for vis a vis what the poor nation's people will accept.

Also, too, and neither should we discount the perceived value to a big company of another work force's local climate for labor laws and litigiousness.

Re:Ahh Yes the trend continues..

[Anonymous Coward]

reminds me someone posted:

First they came after union workers, but I didn't speak out because I'm not a union member.
Then they came after engineers, but I didn't speak out because I'm not an engineer.
Then they came after network administrators, but I didn't speak out because most NAs are assholes.
Then they came after me, and there was nobody left to speak out after me.

Re:Ahh Yes the trend continues..

[stenvar]

It's a myth that manufacturing in the US is on the decline; it simply has become smaller relative to other sectors, but in absolute terms, it's been growing.

Re:Ahh Yes the trend continues..

[matthewv789]

Manufacturing may be, but what about manufacturing EMPLOYMENT? When you use robots and automation, there aren't so many employees.

And it may look large because US manufacturing is focused on large-ticket items, like aircraft and rockets and tanks. It's still the case that 99% of the routine goods that you buy (whether clothes or household items or toys or electronics) are made in China.

Re:Ahh Yes the trend continues..

[stenvar]

Manufacturing may be, but what about manufacturing EMPLOYMENT? When you use robots and automation, there aren't so many employees.

I believe manufacturing employment has also not shrunk, but it's harder to find statistics on that and it depends on what you mean by "manufacturing employment". If you mean jobs for people with high school education, those have shrunk, simply because more and more people are actually getting college degrees.

And it may look large because US manufacturing is focused on large-ticket items, like aircraft and rockets and tanks. It's still the case that 99% of the routine goods that you buy (whether clothes or household items or toys or electronics) are made in China.

It doesn't just "look large", that makes it objectively large. And, yes, the US focuses on high margin, high value items because those support the high salaries that US workers demand.

Mostly, these jobs move to China or Europe because Americans don't want to do them anymore.

See what Rowe has to say about this:

http://www.mikeroweworks.com/2...

This needs to be Illegal

[l0ungeb0y]

Under no circumstances should any Utility in the US be allowed to Off-Shore IT operations of it's Infrastructure to Foreign Entities -- doing so opens up the possibility of access being given to enemies of the US or US-based interests by employees of the IT company or by the IT company itself if it comes under the influence or control of enemies of the US.

The ability to fuck with the infrastructure providing power to all of Southern California is a capability no one should be able to hand over to foreign nationals. The Federal Government needs to shove their foot right up the collective asses of Cal Eds Senior Management and Board.

Re:This needs to be Illegal

[bobbied]

Wait a min... This is a democracy you know..

First there has to be a law to enforce... THEN you get out the jackboots and brown shirts..

Re:This needs to be Illegal

[ebno-10db]

Nice try at a slur. There is nothing new, unusual, un-Constitutional or unreasonable about requiring that vital functions in the US be performed by US based entities.

Re:This needs to be Illegal

[Anonymous Coward]

Under no circumstances

Oh please, just because they have a government-protected monopoly that is backed-up at gun point doesn't mean they owe us anything. Well, that is the Republican belief. They don't believe in competition. They believe in granting monopolies. Despite their claims of being capitalistic, they have never supported competition. That is why they want all companies that are not in the Fortune 100 to die.

Re:This needs to be Illegal

[WindBourne]

Then it is time for those that are laid off, to sue the company. In particular, in a court, they should be pointing out the security issues, esp. with target. And then push this issue with the courts.

Re:This needs to be Illegal

[evilviper]

" Under no circumstances should any Utility in the US be allowed to Off-Shore IT operations"

They aren't. I know this from first-hand experience as a Sr Engineer for a major phone company, that is to remain nameless. I was responsible for the audit, after the DoJ specifically told us we needed to ensure anybody who wan't *physically* in the US at the time, would not have access to ANY production data.

Despite the idiotic headline, this has to be about H1Bs who reside in the US, NOT off-shoring. The Fed wouldn't allow a list of 5 power pole locations to leave the country.

Re:This needs to be Illegal

[Anonymous Coward]

The new thing is that there are trade treaties designed by the copyright lobbies which make descriminating against foreign companies illegal. You can do it for reasons of national defence, however that has to be pretty narrowly drawn because otherwise the other companies wouldn't accept the right of US companies to protect the latest Hollywood movie and the latest RIAA dropping.

Re:This needs to be Illegal

[l0n3s0m3phr34k]

LOL...tell that to National Grid, who runs a huge chuck of the NE USA's power, owned by a UK company, and has outsourced everything possible to Wipro or whomever...

Re:This needs to be Illegal

[Anonymous Coward]

Under no circumstances should any Utility in the US be allowed to Off-Shore IT operations of it's Infrastructure to Foreign Entities -- doing so opens up the possibility of access being given to enemies of the US or US-based interests by employees of the IT company or by the IT company itself if it comes under the influence or control of enemies of the US.

The ability to fuck with the infrastructure providing power to all of Southern California is a capability no one should be able to hand over to foreign nationals. The Federal Government needs to shove their foot right up the collective asses of Cal Eds Senior Management and Board.

Further to that, no utility supplying a required service to the people (ie: water, electricity or gas) should be private. I know the american industrial complex has done a wonderful job of brainwashing all Americans that unions are bad, public ownership of anything is bad, but quite simply they're wrong. Where I live the electrical utility is government owned and we have some of the lowest electricity rates in the world. Our auto insurance is also government owned and as a result we also have among the lowest rates for car insurance in the country. And as much as people are going to flame me for having said this, at both of those companies the IT work will never be outsourced to foreign guest workers, and that's a guarantee.

Re:This needs to be Illegal

[Anonymous Coward]

The IT people are not involved in any way with the power generation operations engineering team that supports the SCADA systems you are so concerned about.. IT workers are doing the accounting, inventory, etc and the bullshit reports for management.

Re:This needs to be Illegal

[bobbied]

Nice try at a slur. There is nothing new, unusual, un-Constitutional or unreasonable about requiring that vital functions in the US be performed by US based entities.

I didn't say there was. What I said was that you have to get the law passed first. Just constructing some emotional argument to justify something is not sufficient, unless we really don't have the rule of law here.

Unions

[rsilvergun]

Organization (via Unions) is the only solution I can think of to this. Sure, we could call it something else, but it's basically Unions.

Un-Organized workers are too weak to demand or get better wages or a better way of life. Life basically stunk for everyone but a few kings thousands of years. It still stinks if you're not in one of the countries with a strong, well organized pool of labor that has solidarity. Sure, a few on /. might "Got Mine, FU" right now. But the powers that be are coming for you too....

Re:Unions

[zippthorne]

So, you're going to solve being fired en-masse by banding together and refusing to go to work? Good luck with that plan.

Re:Unions

[Anonymous Coward]

The powers that be have successfully done a good job at minimizing unions and nothing stops companies from shipping the work away from a unionized site. It's all math, and if the math benefits avoiding the union, they will avoid the union.

I think it mostly comes down to the fact that our representatives aren't representative. They are indirectly employed not by the people but by corporate or other large interests. At this point I'm fairly certain that picking educated people at random for limited terms would have better results.

Re:Unions

[TheGratefulNet]

hey fuck-wad, it WORKED about 100 yrs ago and its why we now have a (more or less) standard 5 day work week, vacation time off, sick time and holiday time.

you guys who deny the very real benefits our grandfathers fought for should be so ashamed of yourselves. seriously, go study just a wee bit of history and see what the work conditions were like before and after unions (in the US, at least).

arrogance of youth, I would assume, on your part. but you wait, they'll come for you when you are of logan's run age.... and then you'll wish there was something there to help you fight the man.

Re:Unions

[Teun]

So you feel a union's only tool is calling a strike?

Poor deluded you!

A union's goal is to improve working conditions and remuneration is one of them.
Increasing the number of jobs and their quality are fundamental to the success of the union, both in the eyes of their members and of the employers.

At times a union runs into an unresponsive employer who sabotages the balance between work and rewards, just like that employer they can sabotage the company until it sees the light.

Re:Unions

[eyepeepackets]

Unions require the leverage of work stoppage causing production blockage, but this doesn't work when the employer can pick up shop and move to cheaper labor. Combine this with the lack of import tariffs and there is no leverage for a labor union to wield. For unions to work now, you'd have to have the workers of the world unite, which was a Socialist rallying call if I remember my history. We all know what Americans think of Socialism, especially the sneering libertarians found in IT departments.

Unions will not work now like they did 100 years ago, at least not in the USA while there is such great disparity between here and there. Something that may or may not comfort you is that _everything_ in the U.S. will have to level down, including labor costs/wages, rents/returns, property values, profits -- it's called deflation and it's unavoidable.

Re:Unions

[stenvar]

You can force companies to pay higher wages, but you can't force them to exist. If they can't compete with overseas manufacturers at those higher wages, they are going to go out of business. And that's the reason companies outsource in the first place and why some key industries have disappeared from the US. So, high labor costs are the reason jobs are moving overseas, even to Europe; US wages are some of the highest in the world, and the only way we can pay those wages is by focusing on highly productive jobs. Jobs that return less than what a worker minimally costs disappear from the US, and no union is going to change that.

Re:Unions

[Anonymous Coward]

www.opeiu.org - unionize. It is illegal for the company to try and stop you. I'm in IT and also unionized in OPEIU getting a nice hourly rate. Sat is time and a half and Sun & holidays are double time. I used to consult for $100/hr +, but now I'm a union employee. I still get paid hourly though. It is like consulting without all of the hassle and with the overtime the pay + benefits is better than consulting.

Re:Unions

[Anonymous Coward]

Massive inflation and dollar devaluation are a very plausible solution to national debt and negative trade balance problems.

Re:Unions

[Penguinisto]

hey fuck-wad, it WORKED about 100 yrs ago...

This isn't 100 years ago - the companies have gotten smarter (and far more PR-savvy) since then.

Let me tell you how a certain progressive German company handled their union troubles here in the US...

They bought an oil-company spin-off called Shell Solar. In their Washington (state) site, the Machinists' Union decided that it would be a great time to ask for a raise, since things had been stagnant there for awhile wage-wise. The company said no. The Union threatened to strike, and it made a bit of noise in the local papers.. The company quickly agreed to the wage increases.

Not a handful of months later, the company decided to turn the WA production site into a warehouse, and gave the workers a choice: Either re-apply for jobs at lower wages in nearby right-to-work Oregon, or be out of a job. Two years later, the site was shuttered entirely.

So - still think unions are the way to go?

Re:Unions

[Anonymous Coward]

So - still think unions are the way to go?

Yes. Everything that can be done to screw with unions is done 100x harder and faster to individuals.

Combination of both

[Jmstuckman]

According to the article, they are outsourcing the work to an offshore IT firm. This IT firm, in turn, will give the work to a US location, which staffs itself with H-1B workers. The effect is that US-based workers are being laid off and indirectly replaced with H-1Bs.

Re:Combination of both

[ebno-10db]

Which is exactly why an Indian commerce minister referred to the H-1B as the "outsourcing visa". It's not an either/or situation - the H-1B visa helps enable outsourcing/offshoring.

Re:Combination of both

[Hamsterdan]

Shouldn't that be illegal?

Re:Combination of both

[anubi]

Shouldn't that be illegal?

Depends

If you are a college graduate who has invested tens of thousands of dollars into education and is expecting a return on that investment, if some businessman can get those skills cheaper overseas, its just good business.

If you are some business who has invested tens of thousands of dollars developing some product and is expecting a return on that investment and someone can bypass that and simply download the work from an overseas server, that is copyright violation, violation of patent, or some other way of saying "theft" and is verboten.

It just depends on how big you are and your relationship with the government on whether this action demonstrates "good business skills" or is considered "theft". Its really a fine line; I often cannot tell which side of it to be on myself, as I know that the game is rigged, and trying to be an honest player is a sure way to lose.

My personal ethics and the reality of my environment are usually at odds with each other big-time on these issues, which is why I have done my damndest to "drop out" of it. Doing science is what I feel I was borned to do, but putting up with the politics of the management classes goes against damned near everything I hold true.

Re:Combination of both

[AHuxley]

Its happens in a lot of US sectors from mil to computers to support.
You set up a 100% US based firm to lobby for and sign off on US work, all the US legal needs, US contracting, US academic. State/federal US requirements are met.
At the back end is massive complex reality of a 24/7 cost saving outsourcing/offshoring service.
A massive reduction in US costs, a massive flow of long term cash out of the US for decades services all via a 100% Made in the USA success story.

Re:Combination of both

[houghi]

Let the market sort it out. Oh Wait.

Re:Combination of both

[roman_mir]

I bet the same question was asked by buggy whip makers back in the day (and the same solutions were proposed by them as are getting +5Insightful in this story).

Re:Combination of both

[VonSnaggle]

The company I work for is doing the same thing, the company usually takes on the existing work force (called re-badging) to gather as much carnal knowledge and then do a re-org and everyone has to re apply for $35k dollar jobs (which is very difficult to live off of in the Bay Area); The company then brings in H1B's to rectify the problem (kinda like 3-card-monty).

Re:Combination of both

[Anonymous Coward]

NO!

If you are one of those folks who buys imported junk from big retail store, then don't complain now. China took away millions of blue collar jobs and you didn't say anything. Now a few thousand white collar jobs are at risk and people are crying bloody murder. Get a grip! When you start buying stuff Made in USA, then we will listen to you.

Uh... change companies?

[xeroized]

Never understood why people say "my job sucks so bad" for so long that they will get to the point of workplace violence and/or suicide. It's ridiculous. If you don't like your job, leave. Those workers brought this upon themselves. They had a workplace shooting, and then complained it was managements fault? I'm not in Management, I am an IT Administrator, I deal with 30 projects at a time that I have to keep balanced and running, and I love my job. I didn't a couple jobs back. So I left and went to a new job. And I didn't like that one either, so I left again. Jobs are not that hard to find. I have no sympathy for these people. Now I love my job, and as I watch people lose their jobs to oversea's jobs, I laugh. Because every one of them deserve it. Let's be honest here... you want to work 8am - 5pm with an hour lunch, get paid over $60k a year (more in higher standard states), get bonuses and have a nice cushy job? That's absurd. I work over 50 hours a week, and I make over 100k a year because of the quality of my work, and how much I work. And no, I don't have a college degree, and I am in my mid twenties. Come on people, wake up.

Re:Uh... change companies?

[Anonymous Coward]

delusional capitalist scum like you need to be put down

Re:Uh... change companies?

[Anonymous Coward]

I work over 50 hours a week, and I make over 100k a year because of the quality of my work, and how much I work. And no, I don't have a college degree, and I am in my mid twenties.

As somebody in his mid forties and is still successfully in the game, I can tell you authoritatively that you think you are winning, but you are not.

Re:Uh... change companies?

[Anonymous Coward]

In other words, they haven't figured out how to pay some Indian 1/4 as much for the same job.

Re:Uh... change companies?

[khallow]

Yea, when you're a bit older, and have grown that money to a nice nest egg so that you don't need to work ever (at least till the economy crashes again), then you can say that you've won that particular game

Re:Uh... change companies?

[khellendros1984]

Let's be honest here... you want to work 8am - 5pm with an hour lunch, get paid over $60k a year (more in higher standard states), get bonuses and have a nice cushy job? That's absurd.

Absurd? It describes my current work situation closely. Well, if you exclude the pay and hours; my pay is in the ballpark of yours, and my hours aren't as rigid as "8-5 with an hour lunch". Still, there's always something better and always something worse. It's important to be able to find satisfaction in whatever job you're doing, and you seem to have done that just fine.

Re:Uh... change companies?

[Anonymous Coward]

... because of the quality of my work ...

Thanks for explaining why companies are hiring H1-B employees: Because they offer better quality. Careful, your job is next.

... I work over 50 hours a week, and I make over 100k a year ...

So $60K for 40 hours/week is absurd but $100K for 60 hours/week is good! Or to look at it another way: A 50% increase in hours gets a 65% increase in pay. Considering that a 50% increase in hours means a 20% increase in productivity, your boss is obviously King Midas.

... If you don't like your job, leave.

Because my boss is the only asshole that doesn't invest in his employees. Because it's easy to determine at the job interview that the company is running on inertia and I will be in the same shit-pile in 2 years. Or because so many employees quit a job that is obviously better that mine. Then there's the cost of moving to other family members: Not everybody can ignore that.

... Come on people, wake up.

Yep, you first.

Re:Uh... change companies?

[Penguinisto]

As somebody in his mid forties and is still successfully in the game, I can tell you authoritatively that you think you are winning, but you are not.

Agreed.

Dear GP:

* Wait until you're 35+, and start having a hard time getting up in the morning.

* As time progresses, you get to choose between family and your 50+ hour workweek (anything else leads to divorce, which even $100k/yr won't ameliorate.) Otherwise, you end up old, childless, and alone. You do not want that fate.

* In your 20's, burn-out is relatively unheard-of. In your 40's, it is something you'll spend a very huge chunk of your time trying to avoid at all costs.

* $100k/yr in Alabama might be nice, but $100k/yr in California ain't shit.

* Once you do reach your 40's, you'll start looking back a little.. and you may not like what you see. At nearly 45, I generally like the parts I see that didn't involve a cubicle (or desk). The only parts of my work history that I actually enjoy looking back at was either the USAF stint, or the teaching/professorial stint - not for the management (they mostly sucked ass), but for the feeling of awesomeness I get whenever I leaf through many of my former students' LinkedIn pages (or in the case of the USAF, times like whenever I stood on the flightline after fixing up a multi-million-dollar jet and gazed at the mountains nearby).

Long story short - you only get so much time to spend on this earth - do you want to spend it slaving away for some parade of uncaring asshats who think you're ultimately disposable, or do you want to actually do something you can look back on and go "holy shit that was cool!"?

Re:Uh... change companies?

[matfud]

Yep

The King of 18th Century England Called

[retroworks]

He wants his Outrage back. Protecting "jobs" based on lines drawn on maps is so pre-globalization. Free trade has distributed far more benefits than it has sacrificed. Our children are going to live in a world where fewer people are poor, and maybe they will even marry and have bi-coastal families in the oceanic sense. H1-B is to American progress as interracial basketball league was to the NBA. Let's play ball.

Re:The King of 18th Century England Called

[cyber-vandal]

I have to pay my mortgage now. I can't afford to wait for your utopia.

Re:The King of 18th Century England Called

[Anonymous Coward]

Another 200 years and we may even have a middle class again.

Re:The King of 18th Century England Called

[Shompol]

Free trade works well on a level playing field. Factories that process their waste cannot compete with those that dump waste in rivers and smog rest into the air. Workers in free countries cannot compete with slave labour in the overpopulated third world, where 50% of engineers sit unemployed, while the "lucky" ones commit suicides on a regular basis.

Re:The King of 18th Century England Called

[Anonymous Coward]

Free trade has distributed far more benefits than it has sacrificed.

To whom?

H1-B is to American progress as interracial basketball league was to the NBA.

Nope.. H1-B is the US economic reactor powering the world, yielding nothing to the working class all while benefitting the 1%. Talk to them over in Western Europe, the same thing is taking hold over there. It's a sucker's game.. a race to the bottom.. and as they say in poker, if you can't figure out who the sucker is, it's you.

Try again tardboy.

Re:The King of 18th Century England Called

[Anonymous Coward]

He could just as well be a social anarchist. Open borders is a very liberal idea.

Re:The King of 18th Century England Called

[Anonymous Coward]

Says the asshole who probably makes a very livable wage.

Re:The King of 18th Century England Called

[Anonymous Coward]

we don't have open borders though. i'd support that. we have a rigged system where I'm stuck in the USA but corporations are free to operate anywhere in the world. i'd face huge obstacles to getting a work visa in any developed country because they protect their workers.

So H-1B or offshore???

[iamacat]

That would be completely different things with very different consequences. H-1B is a Visa to work in US, so jobs would not be offshored, just outsourced to a contractor (article mentions Infosys). Employees will be still paying taxes, and salaries can not be that low as they incur living expenses similar to US citizens. Added difficulty of changing jobs while on a visa does depress wages to some degree, but IT workers generally expect to live well.

Offshoring of course means no tax revenue for US and much lower living standards and expenses, so low salaries that US residents can not accept without starving.

It's unfortunate that the article doesn't make clear exactly what is happening.

Re:So H-1B or offshore???

[WindBourne]

Uh, no. They will use the H1B to learn the position and then go back to India. I watched this happen with Verizon. I was unimpressed.

Re:So H-1B or offshore???

[Sprouticus]

I was confused as well, see note above.

Apparently they are sending it to an offshore company who will subcontract and use H1-B employees here to fill the roles.

hope someone kills the fuck responsible for

[Anonymous Coward]

proposing/starting it. if these management fucks want a class war lets give them a real war.

message to you globalization scum:

[c5402dc53929211e1efb]

I'll support globalization the day I'm free to move to and work in any country I choose.

Re:message to you globalization scum:

[rk]

Until that day comes, I will refer to globalization with a more accurate name: "neo-feudalism".

What benefits?

[rsilvergun]

Free trade is great if you're a rich capitalist (e.g. someone that makes their living by owning capital). What about the rest of us? There's plenty of evidence to show NAFTA has been a disaster for everyone on both sides of the boarder except a few wealthy factory owners. Google a little and you won't find much to encourage you.

Karl Marx predicted that capital flowing to where labor was cheapest would result in a race to the bottom, but all anyone can remember about him is that a couple famous dictators happen to use his books for their rhetoric. Not that it's hard to predict that.

Re:What benefits?

[Anonymous Coward]

Yes. Just ask North Koreans what they think about free trade, what with their not having any. And look how awesome they're doing.

Free trade is nearly always a win-win in the long term. This has been proven both theoretically as well as empirically. But it can create tremendous dislocation in the short term, which is where all your ire comes from. This is why we need things like the basic income.

Re:What benefits?

[khallow]

The huge world out there that isn't already part of the developed world is doing well.

Karl Marx predicted that capital flowing to where labor was cheapest would result in a race to the bottom

One of the many things he missed is that it raises the bottom greatly in the process.

Re:What benefits?

[Anonymous Coward]

Yup, NAFTA worked out so well for the average American, who has seen a net decrease in wages since it passed.

Re:What benefits?

[ebno-10db]

Karl Marx predicted that capital flowing to where labor was cheapest would result in a race to the bottom

Which is not all that different from the famous capitalist David Ricardo talking about the "iron law of wages". It's interesting what the two sides agree on.

Re:What benefits?

[retroworks]

There are winners and losers. I don't mean to be callous towards the losers, but the baseball analogy stands. Integration of the negro league with the white league cost a lot of white and black baseball players their jobs in the short run, and most of the anger at the integration was from players that couldn't compete.

And sorry but what are you talking about with NAFTA? With the exception of the drug economy (which is by no means free and transparent trade), Mexico has made tremendous progress since 1993. Where is "plenty of evidence" that the same growth would have been achieved by trade restriction? People who oppose trade spend a lot of time emphasizing incremental losses, in the way you could show lost income from baseball pitchers who lost their place on the bench to Bob Gibsons.

All these arguments were made in Massachusetts when the Worcester textile industry relocated to North and South Carolina, it was all "doom and gloom" and externalized pollution. It was disruptive but Massachusetts economy did better by getting out of textiles and North Carolina did better by getting into them. Now NC has lost it's textile industry, and has Research Triangle in its place. A rising tide lifts all boats not anchored by protectionism.

Re:What benefits?

[Sarius64]

We particularly like the flow of gang members through southern California.

Re:What benefits?

[Intrepid imaginaut]

Oh they remember a lot more than that about him... https://www.youtube.com/watch?...

Re:What benefits?

[AutodidactLabrat]

Free trade is great if you're a rich capitalist (e.g. someone that makes their living by owning capital). What about the rest of us? There's plenty of evidence to show NAFTA has been a disaster for everyone on both sides of the boarder except a few wealthy factory owners. Google a little and you won't find much to encourage you. Karl Marx predicted that capital flowing to where labor was cheapest would result in a race to the bottom, but all anyone can remember about him is that a couple famous dictators happen to use his books for their rhetoric. Not that it's hard to predict that.

There is no such thing as free trade. That's why we have patents, and proprietary code, and business secrets, to establish and maintain monopolies.

Uh. no

[Anonymous Coward]

H1B's are in the borders of the US and pay US taxes. They are not in another country.

Re:Uh. no

[jedidiah]

So it's local outsourcing. They're still taking away your job so that they can give it to someone that isn't in as good of a bargaining position. It doesn't matter if it's some guy in a 3rd world country, or some guy that's visiting from a 3rd world country who gets to be treated like dirt.

Both "illegals" and H1-B's fall into this sort of 3rd world underclass.

As if we didn't already have enough pockets of 3rd world fester...

Re:Outsourcing! Management Sux! What?!?

[Anonymous Coward]

You don't like market economy? Are you a communist?

You only have to look for ads in India and China

[WillAffleckUW]

There are a few nations that provide the bulk of H1-B "workers".

Look at job ads in those locations - those are the people that will replace the US workers.

Re:Outsourcing! Management Sux! What?!?

[Anonymous Coward]

Borders don't keep the jobs in any more than they keep people out.

Only when you design it that way.

When you factor in productivity, benefits, and inflation, the median hourly wage has dropped by half the last 40 years. The scariest thing is that we've done it to ourselves. We're now the "Marketing Generation" that demands lies over truth.

Dilbert is Real

[Tablizer]

SCE's management culture may be particularly primed for firing its IT workers...One observation in this report...was that 'employees perceive managers to be more concerned about how they 'look' from above, and less concerned about how they are viewed by their subordinates.

PHB1: "This survey shows our employees think we in management are clueless superficial jerks. What do we do about it?"

PHB2: "I got it! Fire them all and outsource their work to new people who don't yet know we are clueless superficial jerks."

PHB1: "Brilliant! Let's vote ourselves a raise for this plan!"

Re:Outsourcing! Management Sux! What?!?

[Tablizer]

But third-world labor is often cheaper because those countries don't have and/or enforce labor, safety, and pollution laws. Should we trash the USA in order to compete with those used to living in trashy country?

Further, individuals here don't have the ability to change their entire country even if they personally wanted the trade-offs offered by such an Ayn Rand "paradise".

And why reward trashy countries for being trashy by giving them our jobs? We should encourage them to get civilized.

Replace manangement first....

[Lumpy]

H1B's can do the managements job a Lot better and a lot cheaper. There is far more savings in replacing everyone at the manager level and up.

Re:Replace manangement first....

[Anonymous Coward]

Oh god no. We recently got an H1B project manager (consultant), replacing one that had been forced into retirement. For one project he has approximately 10 hours of meetings (each with over 10 staff at various levels) scheduled every week. Much of that time is spent answering questions about the technologies used in our project. As far as I can tell, this guy is using our firm for free training - an absolutely brilliant move on his part, but sucks for us...

we need basic income and Medicare for All

[Joe_Dragon]

we need basic income and Medicare for All and then we can be ok with outsourcing.

Re:we need basic income and Medicare for All

[Anonymous Coward]

basic income

Exactly. The assholes with jobs aren't paying their fair share to those of us that don't work. AP had an article today that shows the top 10% of earners only pay 70% of federal income taxes. They can afford to pay a lot more.

Re:we need basic income and Medicare for All

[Anonymous Coward]

that's because they make more than 10% of the money you shithead

Republicans hate us

[Anonymous Coward]

This is what they want done to all IT workers here. As they've said many times, they want us to starve and die. Too bad the new owners of /. are complicit in this. We don't see enough articles that talk about how to defend ourselves from the constant Republican attacks.

Re:Outsourcing! Management Sux! What?!?

[Anonymous Coward]

I can keep the jobs inside the border. You enact a tariff on goods and services that could be produced in the US to bring the cost of those goods and services to the same level to produce them in the US.

Bam. Problem solved. Who said I want to keep people out. After my tariff is enacted there will be plenty of jobs in the US.

Oh yeah, well I'm replacing SCE

[ssufficool]

With offshore made solar panels. They can now pay me for power.

BSABSVR

[L. J. Beauregard]

Deportations have continued apace under Obama.

Of course we'll never get them all, because the Vaterlandssicherheitsdepartment doesn't have enough manpower. So if you want to round up that last illegal, fine.

Increase the size and funding of the Vaterlandssicherheitsdepartment about tenfold.

Swarm this land with goons to grab hold of anyone who looks a little brown, ask him "Sus papeles, por favor", and beat the mierda out of him when he answers in English.

And you can STFU about Big Government and you can STFU about the taxes needed to pay for it all.

Or we can slap some fines on the companies that hire illegals, or that illegally hire H1Bs instead of Americans. But no, that'll never happen, because Job Creators.

Re:BSABSVR

[Anonymous Coward]

The...what?

Typical

[TClevenger]

Southern California Edison has already outsourced thousands of jobs and sold off everything not nailed down. Frankly, I'm surprised that IT wasn't the FIRST to go.

And yet, ratepayers haven't seen a dime of all of these savings.

How it is done

[speedlaw]

You want to hire an H1-B. You then write a description for the visa that can only be filled by the prospective applicants (must speak Mandarin and Portuguese, code COBOL, have a C++ degree and play good lacrosse) You advertise. Many poor saps, thinking it might be a real job, apply. None of them fit your cookie cutter description. (or, want to work for the offered salary). You get visa. The visa lives or dies at the employers' whim. Gives a whole new area of control over the employee.... I'm amazed. Kids summer camps. Ski areas. In a nation of folks who need jobs, I see a lot of H1-B in certain industries.

LOL. Lessons from target not learned

[WindBourne]

First, one of Target's HVAC guy lost an ID. BUT, target has NOT found that the ID was used to get in there and that was the entry point.

Yet, the one thing that amazes me, is that they totally ignore the fact that not only did Target offshore a great deal, but esp. their production was offshored.
And this was the group that is paying their Indian software engineers, about $7-9K/year (India, like china, plays games with their money against the dollar). How easy is it to offer somebody say 70K to simply open a port, or to leave a back door, etc, and NOT have it be found? Keep in mind that $70K in India, with the current rupee money, is a 10 year salary. You can quietly leave target, get another job elsewhere and have your retirement fully taken care of.
Yes, one group said that something was going on, but the group in India that was dealing with Production IGNORED IT. More importantly, the idiots in target that offshored this, were the ones that ignored the warnings.

And now, utilities are being stupid and following suite. It is time for shareholders to SUE the day lights out of Target and companies like this that offshore.

For those of you losing your job, sue them.

[WindBourne]

Buy some stock in the company and sue them. Seriously. Sue them for making hiring ppl that will be easy targets for bribery.

Re:For those of you losing your job, sue them.

[Anonymous Coward]

> Sue them for making hiring ppl that will be easy targets for bribery.

Obviously cause for concern, but punishing people for what they might do strikes me as setting a very BAD precedent.

Security?

[PPH]

How do they offshore IT jobs and address security concerns at the same time?

They are acting like a tree full of monkeys !

[Anonymous Coward]

" One observation in this report, which was completed a year later, was that 'employees perceive managers to be more concerned about how they 'look' from above, and less concerned about how they are viewed by their subordinates."

Their stupid observation reminded me of the following:

Any organization is like a tree full of monkeys, all on different limbs at different levels. Some monkeys are climbing up, some down. The monkeys on top look down and see a tree full of smiling faces. The monkeys on the bottom look up and see nothing but assholes.

I wish them luck

[Anonymous Coward]

I wish them luck. The utility business requires specific knowledge of the business, equipment and regulation. IT management will find that they will have to spend a lot more effort in dealing with the consulting firm managing the new IT staff. I expect they will flounder for a few years until they figure out they were wrong.

Outsourcing is definition of "view from the top"

[roc97007]

> This fosters an unhealthy culture and climate by sending a message to employees that it is more important to focus on how things look from the top than how they actually are down below.

In what world is outsourcing not the same culture in spades? Specifically, a few suits and a few lucky fourth or fifth level professionals selling the idea that a bunch of farmers with three hours of training can take over IT? This only works when the people making the decisions have a fundamental misunderstanding of the problem they're trying to solve.

As if Californians didn't have enough power problems... I'm glad I don't live there.

You don't pay much attention, do you?

[Anonymous Coward]

In the U.S., the labor unions (at the leadership level... dunno how many rank-and-file know it) are completely in the tank for the foreign worker agenda. The union bosses are pushing very hard for amnesty for all the illegals (who they see as easy recruits for union membership) and the AFL CIO's Trumpka has been outside the US hanging out at socialist confabs trying to make ties with foreign laborers (workers outside the U.S. are generally raised and educated to be more collectivist and are far easier to unionize).

Union bosses concerned with their own pay and benefits and the future of their institutions are NOT concerned with individual American workers..... they NEED lots of union members. Nationality is not important to them; NUMBERS of members ARE. If you think that a union (which is a CORPORATION) will save you, you are as delusional as a person who thinks a big business will save him. Big institutions have their own inertias and their own agendas.

Public Utility ?

[Anonymous Coward]

And why does this company get any government help to eliminate jobs being done by US citizens ? The company gets tax breaks, bonds, and a almost sure profit. I have worked with H1B visa workers, they don't hold a candle to seasoned IT workers. But they do work cheaper, longer and don't take family time.
But taking 70 hours to do less work is not good. Dedicating yourself to the job (60+ hour avg work week) and not having much home, is not a way to have happy or long term employees. The plan is (imho) to hire H1b workers and replace them whenever they can ask for a market wage or turn 40 years old.

The problem at most (if not all) the IT departments I have worked at is MANGEMENT !!!
That's NON IT MANAGEMENT, IT MANAGEMENT, and RESOURCE MANAGEMENT(time,money & people)

There is no magic.
You have to have time,money & people to do the job (design,build,test,document,train,deploy,update,operate and maintain)
Don't cover all 9 and you fail. (don't forget disaster recovery either!)

You have to have goals and metrics.
That's goals that everyone has buy in, not we are doing it this way because the head troll of XXX dept says so.

And the metrics are not numbers to be gamed. And they should be few and chosen carefully (with buy in)

A rising tide

[rsilvergun]

doesn't raise all ships, it swamps all but the biggest boats. Also, how does that help you, living a middle class life in a first world country. It's OK to think about yourself and your long term well being, You know?

Re:A rising tide

[khallow]

A rising tide doesn't raise all ships, it swamps all but the biggest boats.

At least you've vaguely heard of the saying. The real saying is "A rising tide raises all boats". It basically sums up the general outcome of positive sum games. It amazes me how many people just don't get what a positive sum game is.

And the great irony here is that the largest ships, the developed world countries, are the ones being swamped. That's because they choose not to adapt. It's easier to blame the consequences of actions on the rich or whatever and just keep doing the same stupid things you decided you were going to do.

Also, how does that help you, living a middle class life in a first world country.

Adaptation is cheaper and more effective than ignoring reality. For example, labor got cheaper, but capital didn't. Put some of your effort into acquiring capital rather than just depending on your labor for your well being.

It's OK to think about yourself and your long term well being, You know?

When the supposed solutions result in plunging billions of people into greater poverty, then it dishonors me and mine to not speak against these games. I can adapt for a lot less harm to the rest of the world than the current bout of absurd regulation, protectionism, and hysteria.

Re:A rising tide

[rsilvergun]

Positive Sum Gaming would work if the rich didn't gain when you lose. But they do. They gain power. See here.. Adaption is a slow, painful process. When the industrial revolution hit in the mid 1700s millions were impoverished by automation before the economy caught up in the 1800s. 60+ years of misery. We've seen it happen, I don't see any good reason we should let it happen again just to preserve a misguided notion of "freedom" at all costs.

You're also assuming we have to have 80% of humanity living in abject poverty. But is that really true? Are we as a people so weak that we can't feed or cloth one another? We already know the answer is no. We already produce enough food to feed everyone on the planet, we just need people willing to say it's OK for people to have food, even if they didn't work themselves to death to get it.

Re:A rising tide

[khallow]

Positive Sum Gaming would work if the rich didn't gain when you lose. But they do.

This is wrong. You are operating from incorrect premise, probably because you live in a developed world country.

You're also assuming we have to have 80% of humanity living in abject poverty.

You just made this assumption for the first time in this thread.

We already produce enough food to feed everyone on the planet, we just need people willing to say it's OK for people to have food, even if they didn't work themselves to death to get it.

A truly stupid statement, since those people have been saying that for some time. Saying "it's OK for people to have food" doesn't magically give people food. You need to have the infrastructure in place, including social and legal, in order for it to happen.

Re:Outsourcing! Management Sux! What?!?

[Anonymous Coward]

What fucking decade are we living in here folks?!? This isn't news but it is confirmation that US companies are full of douche bags.

We're living in the decade in which you can buy stuff from all over the world with few restrictions. That means that companies can effectively also buy labor from all over the world. It's pretty much impossible in practice to have one without the other.

Re:Outsourcing! Management Sux! What?!?

[Anonymous Coward]

Funny how creating a company to sell products and service at maximum profit is seen as American as apple pie, unless your company is a union selling labor. Suddenly it's sacrilege to manipulate the supply of your product to affect prices.

"...who exactly is the H1-B police..."

[tlambert]

And who exactly is the H1-B police who come arrest the violators?

That would be:

= U.S. Immigration and Customs Enforcement (ICE)
= U.S. Citizenship and Immigration Services - Fraud Detection and National Security Division (FDNS)
= U.S. Department of Labor - Office of Inspector General
= U.S. Postal Inspection Service (USPIS)
= U.S. Department of State
= U.S. Attorney’s Office for the Southern District of Iowa

At least that's who it was for this case: http://exbay.blogspot.com/2009...

So perhaps you are an idiot for implying that these laws are unenforced and unpoliced, and it's a scaremongering tactic which actually has very little to do with the offshoring indicated by the original article, which in turn has very little to do with H1-B's at all, since off shore workers are in other countries, and don't require H1-B visas to be employed by a U.S. company, if they never leave their home country.

Re:"...who exactly is the H1-B police..."

[Sarius64]

Well there's an authority to base your response upon! I especially like the links to payday loans and making sure your H1B sponsor treats you properly. I missed the part where it actually backs up a single thing you assert since the press release it references is not linked.

Re:"...who exactly is the H1-B police..."

[tlambert]

Well there's an authority to base your response upon! I especially like the links to payday loans and making sure your H1B sponsor treats you properly. I missed the part where it actually backs up a single thing you assert since the press release it references is not linked.

http://www.uscis.gov/archive/a...

Government press release you could have googled yourself. Feel free to continue whining that nothing is ever enforced in this area of law.

Re:"...who exactly is the H1-B police..."

[Sarius64]

I didn't realize mind reading the random person was a mandatory requirement for participation on Slashdot.

Never made the claim you assert.

More arrests were probably made for Nigerian princes than this pathetic example.

These arrests can't even being to affect the level of job depression flooding America with bullshit wages.

The problem with going to India

[Anonymous Coward]

is that all their best talent is already working abroad.
I have to deal with companies in Bangalore, Mumbai, Kolkata and Chennai. I travel to India for 4-6 weeks at a time.
A recent incident in Bangalore was that it took a whole day and SIX, yes SIX levels of management approvals to get one IP address added to the DNS Server so that we could cluster SQLServer.
There are always at least double the number of workers than the Outsourcing company says are working on your contract.
The defferential nature of their society means that if the boss says 'Do something impossible' they will sit there trying to do just that. They won't ask for help nor will they dare tell the boss that they are a PHB and .... well you get the rest.
Problem solving skill are just about non existent.

The exceptions are those who have worked or been educated abroad.

I really wish that companies would realise that India (or anywhere else for that matter) whilst appearing to be better for the bottom line, customer services are way worse off than before.
If you are a service company then watch out.

The trend continues

[Anonymous Coward]

It would be more appropiate to say:
First WE came after the "racists", which where trying to excuse their "racism" and "bigotry" by saying that what they were actually opposing was being forced out of job by illegal immigrants.
Then came the big irony of life.

It wouldn't be so bad if someone learned something from this lesson, but that would be expecting too much from a cult that displays irredeemably cynism as a sign of identity, and that doesn't react well to cognitive dissonance.

Re:The trend continues

[Anonymous Coward]

tell us more about what life as a retard is like...

Re: The trend continues

[Anonymous Coward]

It's like staring at the finger when the sage points to the moon, and thus not seeing anything worthwhile in his words. In addition to that, it has a lot of mimicking what others do and say because not only is that easier to do than thinking by yourself, but also likelier to achieve a good result. However, this heuristic comes with a weakness, and that is that any smart person that figures how your weak mind works can and will manipulate you and others like you for his/her own selfish reason, usually taking all your wealth and then abandoning you helpless and poor.
Unfortunately for the retards, they lack the ability to notice if a person is good or evil, so they tend to group with the wrong people. All they need to do to win a retard's confidence is to claim he or she will become smart if they do and believe what they tell them to do and believe, as they really, really want to be smart. The first thing they are told is that people that disagree with what they're told are "not smart", and should actively not be listened if censoring or destroying the offender is not an option.
Because they can't follow basic logic, a retard's beliefs are usually contradictory and internally inconsistent. That isn't usually an issue, because they never reason for themselves. However, there comes a time in which a retard's actions will clash with reality, usually with traumatic results. At those times, the retard will be confused and will have to wait until a smarter person comes up with a solution for the cognitive dissonance conflict, which usually is a variation of the "true scotman" fallacy.

Market Dependent

[Anonymous Coward]

I am a "skilled" US based (citizen) IT worked who is regularly shipped overseas by demand, a great deal of these comments are by folks ignorant to the availability issues involved. That aside, there are likely many positions in this operation to which my anecdotal experiences do not apply. These ventures are usually based upon kick-backs and good-ole-boy politics and rarely last beyond 3-5 years (the tenure of the CIO involved). Take a look at CA or AZ and you will find cyclic behaviour such as this for examples.

Hey, Lets Fix This

[rally2xs]

Good luck studying CS in college - I always advise against it for just this reason. The industries cry about not having competent domestic help, but what do they do? Simply outsource to save a buck, and the domestic help, us, work at Walmart.

Anyway, the fix for this, at least the H1B's, is the Fair Tax. It is a consumption tax on spending on new retail items for sale and services. it abolishes the income taxes, which make doing things in the US much cheaper, because there would be no corporate income tax. As for H1B's, the Fair Tax has a mechanism called the "prebate" that sends every citizen enough $$$ to cover the Fair Tax on all his spending up to the poverty level. The prebate is paid to citizens, not foreign workers. So, the foreign workers would be put at a disadvantage even if they do want to work for peanuts here. The Fair Tax is the way to full employment for the American people. We just have to pass the Fair Tax in congress.

Fuck that

[PeeAitchPee]

Yes, let's base compensation on seniority rather than merit or anything related to real-world performance, and make it impossible to fire someone for anything short of mass murder. Then let's take a chunk of each worker's paycheck against their will and give it to the goddamn politicians to fund their campaigns. Yep, that sounds like exactly what the tech sector needs.

Re:Fuck that

[Anonymous Coward]

Yes, let's base compensation on seniority rather than merit or anything related to real-world performance, and make it impossible to fire someone for anything short of mass murder.

you want to make everyone a C level Exec?

Re:Fuck that

[Anonymous Coward]

Not all unions operate in the same way nor is there any rule against forming a new one with rules that others don't have. It's also not unusual for professionals to pay membership fees to associations that just happen to be mandatory to work in their field, and yet somehow this is not an outrageous situation. But I guess that never occurred to you during your blind rage ranting.

There is only one way to stop this

[POed Lib]

The leaders of the H-1B movement must be removed. These include Eschoo, Lofgren in the House and Feinstein, Boxer in the Senate. In CA, there is an open primary. Eschoo and Lofgren must be primaried by a DEMOCRAT who is ANTI-H-1B. The political picture in CA is much wider open than it was 6 years ago. Who will step up and take on Lofgren, an immigration traitor and thief who has made millions bringing in scabs to steal American jobs. Who will take her on?

Who modded up this troll?

[Anonymous Coward]

Same stupid comment in every slashdot thread.

Scott Adams Worked for a California Utility when h

[Anonymous Coward]

Enough Said.

This has not worked very well

[Anonymous Coward]

It looks good to the CFO and his/her bean counters. $15/hr or $10/hr or $5/hr for an Indian programmer. No healthcare benefits, no vacation pay, no holiday pay and no sick pay.

Unfortunately, these programmers usually work for TCS or Wipro or whoever, and they are assigned programming tasks for which they sometimes have no training or knowledge. Especially "legacy" systems like mainframes or mid-range platforms. There is just no knowledge. So, these programmers end up posting on various tech forums for help and advice, and it's usually the unemployed American programmers who answer these posts. Irony.

But, again, the cost savings is just too compelling. The CFO gives a PowerPoint to the CEO and the other corner-office people and, presto changeo, the deal is done. Don't expect this to change, not for a very long time.

The very HEIGHT of irresponsibility!

[kheldan]

The U.S. economy is still in recovery and unemployment is still high. It's bad enough that we're importing workers for any reason, but to actually fire employees so you can import cheaper workers? What the actual FUCK!? It's pitchfork/scythe/burning torch time, I think; it's time for a little insurrection. U.S. companies need to be hiring U.S. citizens, damnit!

This is not new

[Anonymous Coward]

FTA: "employees perceive managers to be more concerned about how they 'look' from above, and less concerned about how they are viewed by their subordinates".

Isn't this true just about anywhere?

oh please...

[Anonymous Coward]

As if democrats are opposed to H1B visa workers??
Unless technology workers form an advocacy group of some kind that starts funding political campaigns of one major party or the other (it doesn't really matter which, just pick one), you will continue to see both sides clamoring for more H1B visas and zero resistance other than some occasional lip service.

Re:oh please...

[Billly Gates]

The republicans will be the one screaming socialism if workers did this. The democrats wouldn't care

glad I don't live in cali

[Anonymous Coward]

When are people going to realize you cannot offshore everything.

I guess since they are Americans, they will realize their mistakes right after it explodes in their face.

PEBCAK's.

Re:glad I don't live in cali

[EmagGeek]

Most people realize that you can't offshore everything.

But, IT is not one of those things you can't offshore.

So let me get this correct

[Anonymous Coward]

The power company's are paranoid that terrorists will one day have the ability to screw with the grid, so in their infatuate wisdom the offshore the IT of this power grid overseas and expect that a $.1.25 an hour IT worker working in a hut in the outback of India won't take an offer for $100 for access? Brilliant, I feel so safe now and re assured that our country is a safer place in order to unemployed people and save money.. Vicious circle we have now a days.

OF course

[Anonymous Coward]

Of course, they decided to outsource it all.

You can't blame management, that's what the report did.
So now they get rid of everyone but management.

Mission accomplished.

you're wrong

[Anonymous Coward]

You sure about that? Mexico, China, and India all beg to disagree. The bottom only gets raised if there is money going to the bottom, which it doesn't always do. What it does always do is create a huge economic divide between the haves and the have nots, which is coincidentally what's happening in the US because of these policies of importing cheap labor with no protections without providing a tariff for countries that don't play on the same basic playing field. It's weakened the dollar, driven up costs, lowered wages. Yet if you go to countries that don't practice this it's the exact opposite. Only in your textbook and in actual free but regulated markets does this idea of yours actually happen.

It's simple...

[PortHaven]

You're not understanding that the problem of culture that couldn't be fixed, was workers complaining of abuse. Since the workers were not willing to just accept it, no matter what managers, upper managers, and executives tried. The solution was to replace workers with temp. immigrants.

Let's not forget...

[PortHaven]

That H1B visa holders are contacted almost every year on their anniversary and apologized to, that they must accept a 5%-15% wage cut...if not, they lose their job and visa. So they accept.

Then they tell the American's the avg wage is xx,xxx, so they are being let go because they're being paid more than average..