Figuring Out the iPad's Place

An anonymous reader writes "One of the most interesting notes from Apple's recent quarterly report was that iPad sales are down. Pundits were quick to jump on that as evidence that the iPad was just a fad, but there were still more than 16 million units sold. iPads, and the tablet market as a whole, clearly aren't a fad, but it's also unclear where they're going. They're not convincingly replacing PCs on one end or phones on the other. Meanwhile, PCs and phones are both morphing into things that are more like tablets. New form factors often succeed (or fail) based on what they can do better than old form factors, and the iPad hasn't done enough to make itself distinct, yet. Ben Thompson had an insightful take on people demanding desktop functionality from the iPad: 'This sounds suspiciously like the recommendation that the only thing holding the Macintosh back was its inability to run Apple II programs. It's also of a piece with the vast majority of geek commentary on the iPad: multiple windows, access to the file system, so on and so forth. I also think it's misplaced. The future of the iPad is not to be a better Mac. That may happen by accident, just as the Mac eventually superseded the Apple II, but to pursue that explicitly would be to sacrifice what the iPad might become, and, more importantly, what it already is.'"

Comments

It already found its place.

[Anonymous Coward]

It exists already in the niche that exists between the full computer experience, and the phone experience. Why the hell would it have an infinite growth and replace computers and phones?

Re:It already found its place.

[rudy_wayne]

The future of the iPad is not to be a better Mac. That may happen by accident, just as the Mac eventually superseded the Apple II, but to pursue that explicitly would be to sacrifice what the iPad might become, and, more importantly, what it already is.'"

What the iPad "already is" is an inferior computer. It's great for niche applications. When I hired a plumber he pulled out his iPad, used it to process my credit card payment, tapped a couple of buttons and emailed me a copied of the bill.

But it's not a general purpose computer. The small screen, no keyboard and no external ports make it useless for doing any real work. Except for niche applications, it's strictly a content consumption device.

Re:It already found its place.

[Hognoxious]

Why the hell would it have an infinite growth and replace computers and phones?

Because Elon Musk invented it.

Re:It already found its place.

[Anonymous Coward]

I see the iPad as something a bit like the IBM PC in today's desktop space, it popularized and shaped the market but use FUD and legal tactics to slow their inevitable shrink into an irrelevant share of the overall tablet market.

To put it another way, theyre the 3rd party candidate in a US presidential election where Android is both of the two major parties. They have a voice and might have a few interesting ideas but they'll never be in a position to win.

Re:It already found its place.

[immaterial]

iPad sales aren't down at all - compare the combined q1 and q2 of last year and this year and they're basically even. The difference is for the 2013 fiscal year, Apple was unable to fulfill the holiday backlog in q1 so more sales fell in q2. This year that backlog didn't happen, so Apple had "record-breaking" sales in q1 and "omg-less-than-last-year!" sales in q2. This is a nonstory to anyone who puts the slightest thought into it.

Re:It already found its place.

[tepples]

a) it *has* an external port

Whose licensing is controlled with an iron fist, compared to a lot of 1980s PCs that used standard (or at least unpatented) external interfaces.

it has a screen *larger* than many of the first PCs

True, the monitor in the old black-and-white "toaster" Macs (128K, 512K, 512Ke, Plus, SE, SE/30, Classic, Classic II) was smaller than the iPad's screen. But many of the PCs that preceded it had 240p video output compatible with standard-definition televisions. The Apple II and Commodore 64 sure did. And I think even by the early 1980s, televisions had surpassed that size.

many people already use the iPad for real work

Unlike Apple with the iPad, makers of 1980s PCs had no power to forbid particular applications. Developers' imagination and the hardware capacity were the only limits.

Re:It already found its place.

[Anonymous Coward]

Not an iPad fan but I would say that your plumber is using it for real work. Billing and Receipt of Payment is an awfully important part of any small business.

Re:It already found its place.

[unixisc]

I don't see PCs filling in their space. I can see phones filling in their space.

Re:It already found its place.

[MBGMorden]

I think it really depends. A lot of people who always used a laptop seem to be better served by keeping the laptop. I personally have always hated a laptop for general usage though. Compared to a desktop they've always been limited in specs and had smaller screens and bad keyboards.

HOWEVER, for those times when I'm out traveling I need something portable, and the tablets work great for that. I'm not out working, and any email I send is basically "Hey I'm out till Monday - I'll check with you when I'm back in the office.". Other than that all I want to do is check Facebook/Twitter, look at restaurant reviews, etc.

Basically, the tablet is a great portable computer to do the things I HAVE to do on a computer when I'm away and don't really want/need to spend a lot of time on a "real" computer. Just enough system to meet my needs without getting in the way.

Re:It already found its place.

[MightyYar]

Screen resolution on the iPad is better than my work computer.

The only valid arguments you are making are ideological, and those can be mitigated by purchasing one of the Android tablets instead. I wouldn't want to program on such a limited device, but I've seen people use them for everything from recording doctor's notes to logging in to remote servers via ssh. They are fantastic for certain types of casual gaming. They are great for viewing videos. And they are superior to PCs for couch surfing. Millions of people edit photos on them. They are fine for personal finance, even something like TurboTax. Stick a keyboard on there and they make fine word processors for the 95% use case.

Again, I'm not suggesting that they can replace most engineers' workstations, but they certainly can be useful tools.

Re:It already found its place.

[hambone142]

Using an Android tablet right now. Listening to my favorite radio station over internet sitting in a chair under a shade tree. I don't have to worry about stuff falling is a keyboard but typing on a piece of glass is awful and inefficient.

Re:It already found its place.

[Anonymous Coward]

Hey, dude, you know what - you're right! I'd happily use a 240p screen to do *real* work over a 2048x1536 resolution one.

Re:It already found its place.

[Slime-dogg]

a) it *has* an external port

Whose licensing is controlled with an iron fist, compared to a lot of 1980s PCs that used standard (or at least unpatented) external interfaces.

Logically speaking, you are persisting a fallacy, specifically a straw man argument. That the interconnect is licensed and controlled is irrelevant to the fact that it exists and functions as an interconnect.

The original statement, here:

But it's not a general purpose computer. The small screen, no keyboard and no external ports make it useless for doing any real work. Except for niche applications, it's strictly a content consumption device.

has been refuted, regardless of your views on the port itself.

Re:It already found its place.

[jeffmflanagan]

>I don't see PCs filling in their space. I can see phones filling in their space.

Easily. I don't even know where my Nexus 7 is, because I stopped carrying it when I got a Galaxy Note 3 with a big 1080p screen.
If someone creates a phone with a roll-out screen, it'll all over for tablets.

There was once a terrible syndicated show called Earth Final Conflict. The writing was just bad, the acting was mediocre at best, but the technologies on the show were really nice. They had something called a "global" that was a phone/camera with a pull-out display. This is what I want.

Of course these future phones may be full PCs when docked, so maybe it will in a sense be PCs replacing tablets.

Re:It already found its place.

[tepples]

The only valid arguments you are making are ideological, and those can be mitigated by purchasing one of the Android tablets instead.

I agree that an Android tablet beats a PC for the same use cases for which an iPad beats a traditional PC. But there are still use cases where a traditional PC beats both. An Android tablet comes closer than an iPad to being a full replacement for a laptop, but neither is quite there.

Re:It already found its place.

[MightyYar]

But I don't think anyone anywhere is making a claim that iPads can replace PCs completely.

Re:It already found its place.

[Anonymous Coward]

You paid the plumber, but you don't think he was really working?

The majority of real work is not done on computer. All that is really needed to help the majority are these small, mobile devices for communication, data entry in the field, and some light processing.

That's why this is a post-PC era. Practical computing can finally exist out in the real world, away from the narrow applications of word processing and presentation software.

No one's going to take away the big boxes; but the revolution is being expanded to a much larger group of people.

Re:It already found its place.

[BasilBrush]

There was a book on this topic called "The Invisible Computer", by Donald Norman.

It used the analogy of the electric motor for the computer. It points out that at one time you used to buy a general purpose electric motor, and then use it for all sorts of uses. It has historic photos of such motors being attached to washing machines for when the washing needed doing, and then to sewing machines for when the sewing needed doing and so on. Those images didn't mean much to me being from the wrong era and country.

But I remember well in the 1970s that every man had his electric drill, and a series of attachments. That drill wouldn't just be used for drilling, but with a disk for sanding or polishing the car, and with other attachments for circular saw or jig-saw, pumping water, or trimming the hedge.

But now there is no need for that. You can buy dedicated tools for all those things, at cheap prices. All thanks to Chinese manufacturing.

You can certainly can and do still buy a drill, and a few of those attachments are probably still available. But now you buy lots of more specialised devices that all have their own dedicated motor built in, rather than trying to resuse one device for all power tool jobs.

And that's the trajectory for computers. Starting as a general purpose computing device for all tasks. Then broadening out into many computing devices, each of which is better than the general purpose computer for a subset of tasks.

You gave one example of a task the tablet is good for. There are many more. It won't replace the general purpose PC, but it is taking some tasks that would previously have been done on PCs, and adding other tasks that previously wouldn't have been done at all, or at least not with the help of a computer.

Re:It already found its place.

[Noah Haders]

inescapable fact about (4g) tablet is that they always have internet access. another inescapable fact is that they are always-on, rather than needing to boot up every time. these are two examples of things the iPad can do but computers cannot do.

Re:It already found its place.

[curunir]

I've got two iPads and I think it's misguided to look at it replacing desktop/laptops or phones. The commonality between those two devices is basically limited to activities that I see as having become commoditized...email, web and the like.

But the iPad has partially replaced two of my other devices. I have a 55" flatscreen and PS3 that get significantly less use these days, and it's mostly because of the iPad. I'm not a heavy gamer, so it's notable that I've filled the PS3 void with games that are significantly simpler than what I have on the PS3, but I still find the greater variety of games available on the iPad compelling. For the price of one PS3 game, I can get ~30 iPad games and augment that with many free games. That means I'm almost never bored, despite the lack of depth of each game. And while the iPad might not be as compelling a media viewing device as my 55" screen, I find myself using it more often. It's more convenient, there's no remotes, no switching inputs and streaming is easier. Media companies often bend over backwards to prohibit streaming to devices that can be hooked up to a TV, but they'll make streaming to an iPad work well. When you add in advantages like not disturbing someone who's sleeping and not needing to pause to go to the bathroom I find myself unconsciously gravitating towards streaming on my iPad.

Any discussion of whether the iPad is displacing another consumer electronic device should include TV and gaming consoles long before you include computers or cell phones.

Re:It already found its place.

[Anonymous Coward]

You know what he/she means. The plumber is not managing his inventory of parts on it. He's not fussing with spreadsheets or taking care of the whole accounting aspect of his business. He's not writing a book or editing audio/video or using AutoCAD or Maya or Photoshop. It's doing little more than what a calculator, a pencil, and a printed billing form could do.

Re:It already found its place.

[RedWizzard]

But it's not a general purpose computer. The small screen, no keyboard and no external ports make it useless for doing any real work. Except for niche applications, it's strictly a content consumption device.

You try to make that sound trivial, but content consumption is what 90% of people use computers for 90% of the time outside of their jobs.

Re:It already found its place.

[Meeni]

Any decent laptop is always on too, these days.

Re:It already found its place.

[Noah Haders]

not really. laptops have a sleep mode, but it is a zombie state. when you waken it from sleep, it spins everything up, connects to the internet, download email, etc. on an ipad it's always connected and always grabbing email. in fact it will notify you when new messages come in, as opposed to a lappie that can't notify you like that. an exception is the retina mac, which is always on and connected to the internet. burrrrrrn

Re:It already found its place.

[Meeni]

Yeah, and all that waking up takes a whooping 1s, during which I can already start doing something else.

I quite don't see the purpose of getting notifications on a device I am not looking at anyway, but I'll grant you that one. I don't care but maybe it's important to someone.

Re:It already found its place.

[Anonymous Coward]

and those can be mitigated by purchasing one of the Android tablets instead.

But are sales of Android tablets dwindling?

Re:It already found its place.

[Anonymous Coward]

He's not fussing with spreadsheets or taking care of the whole accounting aspect of his business.

And how do you know this?

Re:It already found its place.

[m.dillon]

If you are an Apple user then buy an AppleTV ($100) to hook up to your 55" screen. You can then AirPlay video from your ipad onto your T.V. wirelessly. You will find yourself wanting to watch certain programs on the 55" screen a lot more often.

Probably 80% of what I watch on my T.V. these days is AirPlayed from my ipad. The canned iOS apps (such as PBS's app) are much nicer operated on the ipad than they are through the set-top box's remote. Website video works just as easily. Mostly though, it's the great iOS apps that make video streaming a pleasure to operate.

(There are numerous TV box products, the Roku is a fine box as well and Amazon has a box out now, but for an Apple device user, the AppleTV's AirPlay feature is fully integrated, convenient, and seamless).

-Matt

Re:It already found its place.

[larryjoe]

Apple is mucking around with accounting numbers to argue that iPad sales haven't decreased. They may actually be correct. However, that's a moot point. What is inescapable is that iPad sales are not growing. And, this trend is not a single quarter phenomenon. What should be troubling for Apple is that the iPad doesn't appear to be following the iPhone growth in sales and that this growth slowdown has come at a much earlier product age.

Re:It already found its place.

[Anonymous Coward]

I mostly agree, but I'm not convinced that "inferior" is the right word.

Count me as someone who was very skeptical about the iPad initially. I particularly hated that Apple used a phone targeting operating system. However they clearly developed a winner and credit where credit is due.

The thing is, the PC (and by that I include Mac's, Linux and the rest) was a revolution that was so successful that it overshot the sweet spot of implementation. PC's got used in places where they weren't the greatest fit. I'm talking about Computers On Wheels, harsh environment computers, and so forth. It's the old 'when all you have is a hammer, then everything starts to look like a nail' situation.

Tablet computers are, perhaps, nearing the top of their growth curve too. Eventually their shortfalls will come to the fore, and I don't just mean in the old "it's not a REAL PC" way. So what does the future require?

I always say that Star Trek got the computer interface issue right. Eventually we are going to want to talk to our computers and have them talk back to us. Not to simply have a relationship, a la "Her". But to have a more effective computing environment and to free us from the form factor constraints of a screen (and possibly keyboard). Tablets have fairly effectively removed a lot of the need for a keyboard. They haven't addressed the screen.

Screens and keyboards are great, don't get me wrong. But in an ideal world they should be optional. If you want to be able to shrink a computer down to the size of a ring or a watch or badge, the screen and keyboard have to go. As in, made optional. Long term, I see greater ongoing needs for screens than keyboards, but that's just an educated guess.

Siri/Cortana are steps on this road. Perhaps Watson, WolframAlpha and Cyc are too. As are DragonDictate and Nuance. What I believe is that a computer with powerful natural language capabilities, with the ability to speak and hear are somewhere in our future.

So, go tablets! But keep on going, past them too.

Re:It already found its place.

[Plumpaquatsch]

a) it *has* an external port

Whose licensing is controlled with an iron fist, compared to a lot of 1980s PCs that used standard (or at least unpatented) external interfaces.

Which interface would that be? Hint: it can't be USB.

Re:It already found its place.

[tepples]

[The Lightning connector's] licensing is controlled with an iron fist, compared to a lot of 1980s PCs that used standard (or at least unpatented) external interfaces.

Which interface would that be?

I can think of RS-232 (serial ports), IEEE 1284 (parallel ports), IEEE 488 (Commodore disk interface), and NTSC (low- and standard-definition color monitors). Or were those controlled at least as tightly as Apple's MFI program?

Re:It already found its place.

[Plumpaquatsch]

[The Lightning connector's] licensing is controlled with an iron fist, compared to a lot of 1980s PCs that used standard (or at least unpatented) external interfaces.

Which interface would that be?

I can think of RS-232 (serial ports), IEEE 1284 (parallel ports), IEEE 488 (Commodore disk interface), and NTSC (low- and standard-definition color monitors). Or were those controlled at least as tightly as Apple's MFI program?

So you have to go back to things that haven't been used for years if no decades, and were developed before the majority of Slashdot readers have been born.

Ohh, BTW: what does having the "open" USB as a "standard" interface gain Android devices? It sure as hell isn't the number of peripherals which pales in comparison to those for Lightning, let alone those for the old Dock connector.

Re:It already found its place.

[Plumpaquatsch]

Apple is mucking around with accounting numbers to argue that iPad sales haven't decreased. They may actually be correct. However, that's a moot point. What is inescapable is that iPad sales are not growing. And, this trend is not a single quarter phenomenon. What should be troubling for Apple is that the iPad doesn't appear to be following the iPhone growth in sales and that this growth slowdown has come at a much earlier product age.

As long as Android tablet sales are growing (that's what the Fandroid keep saying, don't they?) and PC sales are falling like mad - how does that proof that tablets aren't replacing PCs for many if not most?

Re:It already found its place.

[Anonymous Coward]

Who said anything about the relationship between tablets and PCs? iPad sales are not growing, irrespective of how Android and other tablets are selling. This is isn't a comment on the worth, utility, or contribution of iPads. It's just a reflection on sales.

Market saturation

[danceswithtrees]

Perhaps sales are slowing down because of market saturation. The iPad was the first of its kind (that people actually bought, used, and liked). Almost everyone who wants one has probably bought one and the slowing rate reflects market saturation. A diminishing pool of new buyers and a steady pool of people replacing older models would help to explain the "dwindling" sales.

Re:Market saturation

[Lumpy]

Exactly, My wife has no interest in replacing her iPad 2 and my iPad 4 is perfectly fine. Maybe in a couple of year's I'll replace mine.

Same with the Nexus 7 I have, no burning urge to go get the latest shiny that is exactly the same as my current shiny.

Re:Market saturation

[InsultsByThePound]

After the bump in resolution, I just don't think there's much reason to upgrade. Speed is okay. The tech industry increasingly has to look at a future where it sells products that will be "good enough" for most people for a decade instead of 2 years.

What smart phones/tablets went through the last 7 years is what desktop and notebook PCs went through in the 80s/90s/early00s. Now very few people consider seriously getting a new desktop every 2 or even 4 years. And yes there will always be a segment that wants more speed, but as they grew the market for computers, that segment did not increase in proportion with it because most of those power users were already there by the nature of their work. Many of the power users that get added afterwards probably replace the ones that drop off for one reason or another.

And considering ewaste, this is not a bad thing. Except for companies whose stock price depends on them always pushing out more product than they did the same quarter last year.

Re:Market saturation

[alen]

yep

i can stream live TV and read books on my ipad 2 just fine even with the glass cracked

Re:Market saturation

[lagomorpha2]

So what you're saying is, the feature that is ultimately lacking from modern tablets is "planned obsolescence".

Apple, Intel, ARM, and all screwed up when they designed systems that would still work 2 years down the road.

Re:Market saturation

[Mysticalfruit]

This is somewhat endemic of PCs at this point. We are not in the dark ages anymore... unless you're playing the latest and greatest FPS, even a 5 year old PC works just fine... At this point your OS is likely to wear out before your hardware!

I think the same can be said with tablets. My iPad 2 works just great. I have NO incentive to buy an iPad X (where X > 2). Hardware has gotten so good at this point that every "old" (i.e. ipad2) is still great.

Re:Market saturation

[Mr D from 63]

I've found that one to two year old tablet models are the best value when purchasing. No need to spend double for a small step change.

Re:Market saturation

[MBGMorden]

That's the computer market as a whole. From the early 80's up until about 2005 computers were always slow. Slow to the point where people got frustrated, and the never ending progression of speed made upgrading every 2 years (or even faster) the norm.

Then sometime around 2005-ish things seem to get to a point where people weren't waiting on the computer anymore. An upgrade meant little because outside of gaming the computer likely wouldn't "feel" any faster.

Heck I used to build a new computer annually, but I just rebuilt my computer about 2 weeks ago that I had been running since 2009. Not because it was too slow, but because half the USB ports had died on the motherboard.

At this point its gotten to be about like a car. I don't buy a new computer because I want something "better" anymore. I buy when the old one is broken or has more problems than are worth fixing. Tablets are the same way. Honestly I think phones would be too except that due to the way they're carried they suffer a lot more wear and tear and simply break more frequently.

Re:Market saturation

[nickittynickname]

There is, it's why you have to pay a $150 service charge to replace the battery. The planned obsolescence is the lifespan of the battery. Which should be around 2 - 3 years.

Re:Market saturation

[NJRoadfan]

There is, it's why you have to pay a $150 service charge to replace the battery. The planned obsolescence is the lifespan of the battery. Which should be around 2 - 3 years.

There is a market for that service and it usually costs less than Apple charges. Considering that the product is out of warranty by the time the battery goes flat, having it serviced by a 3rd party or DIYing it usually isn't a problem.

Re:Market saturation

[jeffmflanagan]

You're not going to get a decade out of a tablet battery. A replacement cycle of about 3 years seems to make the most sense for handheld devices without user-serviceable batteries. The improvements made over 3 years, and the price-drops will make getting a new one more reasonable than paying to service an older less-functional device. A PC can still be in use in 10 years because you can easily replace the motherboard battery.

Re:Market saturation

[jeffmflanagan]

Even with the latest and greatest FPS, a 5-year-old PC works fine. I haven't had to upgrade a PC to play a game at max-settings since Crysis was released.
We'll need to move to new video cards and maybe PCs for 4k gaming, but as long as we're at 1080p the current hardware is fine.

Re:Market saturation

[Jane Q. Public]

Perhaps sales are slowing down because of market saturation.

While that may be true, I think it's also a case of not seeing the forest for the trees.

The reason tablets must eventually replace laptops (not desktops), is because they can. They are very near to doing so now. Take a look at the recent Gizmag comparison of the new Macbook Air versus Microsoft's Surface Pro 2. They are both good-laptop-quality machines, even though the Surface Pro is more like a tablet. (In fact it basically is a tablet.)

However, in order for a tablet to take the place of laptops, it has to do the same things laptops do, which basically means slightly lighter-weight versions of the same things desktops do.

And, as time goes on, those will become more than just lightweight. Because, again, they can. So they will. (They have been. Look at what laptops do now... it is far more than desktops could do 10 years ago.)

So it is not just desirable, but inevitable, that tablets become able to do the things desktop OSes do today. Otherwise it will be a complete waste of potential. Developers saw that long ago, which is why they started demanding features that they knew would be coming along sooner or later.

If I had a tablet with a good-enough processor (and they are good enough... ala Surface pro), PLUS the ability to drive a portable but external monitor, I could fit my professional work tools in a briefcase: processor (tablet), extra monitor (because I'm a developer and use the extra screen space... a tiny screen doesn't do it even if high-resolution), bluetooth keyboard and mouse or trackpad. And I'm good to go.

But in order for that to happen, it must run a desktop-like operating system.

And it will happen. The real questions are: who will do it, and when?

See, the thing is, companies like Microsoft, Google, and Apple have been concentrating on making their OSes work well on a tablet. But the "tablet-centric" thing is transitory. It must be. They are at the point now when they must start, instead, making their tablets run their desktop (or laptop) OSes, and leave the "tablet-centric" thing behind. It was an adventurous transition period, but I think it's pretty close to over now.

Re:Market saturation

[InsultsByThePound]

You replace the battery.

For people who want to pay the apple tax:
https://www.apple.com/batterie...

And the rest of us will just find cheaper ones online.

Re:Market saturation

[Wycliffe]

Honestly I think phones would be too except that due to the way they're carried they suffer a lot more wear and tear and simply break more frequently.

Phones are pretty much there too. I've broken my phone twice in the last couple years (bad luck) and instead
of "upgrading", I decided it was simpler and cheaper to just buy the identical phone on ebay as I'm happy with my current model.
I'm also going on 5 years with my laptop. My upgrade cycle has steadily increasing over the past 15 years. Back 15 years ago
a $1000 computer would be unable to run the current apps after a couple years. Today, a $1000 computer is probably good for
at least 5 if not 10 years before it is surpassed by the low-end computers.

Re:Market saturation

[Anonymous Coward]

Remind yourself that you are a niche person (rebuilding computers every year, seriously?) who doesn't represent the majority of people. I usually make a deal with ludites: they should invite me to an expensive restaurant if I "superpower their machine for less than 250$". All look at me like I was high. Then I change their HD with an SSD and done. Most people don't even know that SSD exists despite using them in iphones/tablets. They don't make the "brain jump" to think: could the computer load stuff as fast as my other devices? And I bet this trick will work for at least the next five yers.

Re:Market saturation

[BasilBrush]

Battery lifespan is quoted as when the batteries still have 80% capacity. And the iPad battery will be there after 1000 charge cycles. So perhaps 3 years if you use it heavily.

That doesn't mean you need to change the battery at 3 years.

You're also exaggerating the replacement cost. Apple's own replacement is $99 + $6.95 shipping.
And there are of course cheaper options if you go elsewhere.

Re:Market saturation

[gnasher719]

There is, it's why you have to pay a $150 service charge to replace the battery. The planned obsolescence is the lifespan of the battery. Which should be around 2 - 3 years.

You should switch to an iPad. Battery replacement by Apple is $99. Although I haven't heard of many people needing a replacement.

Re:Market saturation

[Barlo_Mung_42]

Planned obsolescence is there in the form of an unreplaceable battery that will one day not hold a charge.

Re:Market saturation

[nickittynickname]

I thought when I was at the apple store it was higher. Guess I was wrong. Thanks pointing out. $100 for a $10 - $20 battery is still crazy expensive. The idea remains. Replacing the battery replacement cost is 20% of the device. This makes for a strong motivator to buy the latest and greatest. Going elsewhere isn't for the average consumer. They don't want to think about it or take risk and a non-apple repair facility.

Re:Market saturation

[kharchenko]

Heck I used to build a new computer annually, but I just rebuilt my computer about 2 weeks ago that I had been running since 2009. Not because it was too slow, but because half the USB ports had died on the motherboard.

It's not the computers - it's you getting older!

Re:Market saturation

[rogoshen1]

You know, i was going to post a snarky reply about how an ultrabook probably meets that requirement -- then i read the bit about an extra monitor. :(

Is it possible to buy an external monitor that's essentially a tablet with mini HDMI *IN*, with the backlight powered by battery? because that sounds really cool.

Re:Market saturation

[Jane Q. Public]

Is it possible to buy an external monitor that's essentially a tablet with mini HDMI *IN*, with the backlight powered by battery? because that sounds really cool.

I looked, and have not found one.

AOC makes one with a USB connector, for arond $80. USB sounded a little strange, but I guess they work fine, as long as you aren't trying to do anything "fast" with them like playing games.

But I think the main point I was making is that enough computing power can be put in a tablet, so inevitably it will be. But what will people do with all that power? Well, a single-tasking (or only one foreground task anyway) tablet OS just doesn't cut it anymore. So what will that be replaced with? Surprise! A desktop OS. It's a natural fit and it already exists... as of about 20 years ago.

I can almost do it now. If I had a quad-core Snapdragon (or equivalent) processor, some half-decent video capability, and an external monitor, I already have everything else I need.

For the work I do, that's still a little weak on the processor but it's getting there.

And I should add: they should keep the touchscreen, for drawing apps and the like, it's a natural. But otherwise I'd set it in a stand and use a separate keyboard.

Re:Market saturation

[m.dillon]

So basically you aren't willing to write Apple a check for $100 for a hassle-free battery replacement on a pad that you've used to good effect for, say, 5 years?

I'll bet 95% of Apple's customers would have no trouble writing that check. I would do it in a heartbeat, if that were the only thing that needed replacing.

-Matt

Re:Market saturation

[Bing Tsher E]

Although I haven't heard of many people needing a replacement.

Wow. Apple has invented a perpetual battery? Do they have it patented? Or is it that the people you associate with just regularly stand in line outside Apple Stores?

Re:Market saturation

[Tough Love]

Perhaps sales are slowing down because of market saturation.

Perhaps iPad is getting its ass kicked by Android.

Re:Market saturation

[Noah Haders]

the difference is for whatever reason many people are on phone plans where they get a "free" new phone every two years. so they regularly get new phones even if the old phone is still good. I'm getting off this treadmill now that freedompop supports iphone 5.

Re: Market saturation

[corychristison]

Depending on the situation, RAM and SSD makes a huge difference. I personally upgraded to an SSD before deciding to upgrade the rest of my system.

Cost was the biggest factor, drop $200 now and I can still use it when I upgrade the rest. No compatability issues.

My old system was an AMD Athlon X2 5200, 6GB DDR2 RAM. Just upgraded to an AMD FX-8320 w/ 8GB DDR3 back in December(2013).

Re: Market saturation

[Anonymous Coward]

I have an iPad 2 at about 3 years old now, use it every day 3-4 hours and the battery is going pretty well.. No where near needing replacement.

Re:Market saturation

[davester666]

Still using my original iPad. Am considering getting a new iPad so I can use Numbers on it, because Numbers sucks to use on the iPhone [5s, at least for me, I either have to zoom in to be able to select stuff, but then zoom out to actually see context]

Re: Market saturation

[Anonymous Coward]

If you think Apple is going backwards to a "desktop" OS experience, you simply are not following along. Apple is pushing tablets FORWARD, hard. Developers and techies are their own echo chamber.. Like car owners still pining over carburetors and stick shifts. Like when Ford figured more farmers would want a faster horse than an automobile.

I have more bought programs on my iPad than on my MacBook because the world reset for tablets and apps are starting over. Some apps are duds, others too complex, but tablets are pushing a lot of innovation in software and hardware that Microsoft allowed to die of sheer boredom on Windows.

Re:Market saturation

[Anonymous Coward]

Apple battery replacement service

Re:Market saturation

[Plumpaquatsch]

Perhaps sales are slowing down because of market saturation.

Perhaps iPad is getting its ass kicked by Android.

Funny, that's what they said the first time people gut suckered into buying cheap Chinese Android tablets.

Hearthstone

[B33rNinj4]

I thought the iPad was Blizzard's new Hearthstone console.

Re:Hearthstone

[Bing Tsher E]

I prefer to play Hearthstone on my Windows Tablet. But I wish they'd port it to Android, so there was something fun to do again with my Galaxy Tab.

Someone at Blizzard had a hardon for Steve Jobs, though. The Android version of the WoW Armory app has always been inferior, with long-ignored bugs, compared to the iOS version.

We already have one...

[Kenja]

Sales are down because we already have one and don't need two. The things are not nearly as disposable as people seem to think.

Re:We already have one...

[Hadlock]

Seconding this. Apple's first attempt was so good that by the time they added a high resolution display, a faster processor and 3G for those who need it, it was a mature product with no more features to add within three generations. If you have a third gen iPad you don't need to upgrade for as long as you can get replacement screens and batteries for it.

Re:We already have one...

[Anonymous Coward]

The things are not nearly as disposable as people seem to think.

Don't worry, Apple is working on making them more fragile and more difficult to repair.

Re:We already have one...

[FlyHelicopters]

The iPad 4 actually is a nice upgrade over the 3. If you haven't used them side by size, which I have since I own both, you wouldn't notice.

The 4 is quite simply double the speed of the 3, it feels much snappier and loads programs much faster than the 3 does.

The Air? It is 40% lighter, which is tempting, but not enough to spend another $500.

The Air 2 or Air 3, probably will get me to upgrade, but I'm moving to a 3 year upgrade cycle now and I'm unlikely to go back to buying a new one every year.

Everyone I know has more or less reached this point with tablets and phones.

Re:We already have one...

[Slime-dogg]

I'll third this.

When I first saw the news, a week ago or so, and Wall Street and Forbes were getting antsy over iPad sales, I thought "why wouldn't sales drop?" The product line is very mature, and there is plenty of competition available as well. The devices last forever - even phones do, though we constantly seek upgrades. Tablets fill a specific need, and there are very few "new" apps that demand a complete overhaul of the hardware in order to function.

Re:We already have one...

[Anonymous Coward]

However, things are very disposable if you got an android tablet.

Re:We already have one...

[Anonymous Coward]

Yeah, if you use it for work then yeah upgrade or get one from your company. Otherwise no.

In The Trash?

[Anonymous Coward]

So there's more room for real tools, not toys.

Re:In The Trash?

[MightyYar]

If life didn't have room for toys, that spot where the flatscreen is hanging would look pretty bare. So would the marina. Toys are awesome, and the main motivation for working.

Wrong direction?

[K. S. Kyosuke]

"This sounds suspiciously like the recommendation that the only thing holding the Macintosh back was its inability to run Apple II programs"

To me, the iPad situation seems more like Apple II being unable to run Macintosh programs.

Re:Wrong direction?

[Extide]

You realize that the Macintosh came after the Apple II, just as the iPad came after the (modern) Macintosh. The comparison is saying the newer platform cannot run the stuff from the older platform.

Re:Wrong direction?

[supremebob]

I think that he means that the iPad is underpowered compared to any Mac product made in the last 5 years.

Either that, or he's complaining that the iPad software is too overly simplified. The software selection on the iPad is OK, but what you can actually DO with the software still pales to what you can do with a real computer. I sure as hell wouldn't want to write a manual or edit a film on one.

Re:Wrong direction?

[MightyYar]

Agreed. At no point was the Apple II more powerful than the Mac. It also looked pretty much like the Mac: keyboard, mouse, screen. Just because Apple branded their newest computer with a new name did not make it a new product category. Apple even shipped a GUI for the II series.

Re:Wrong direction?

[Bing Tsher E]

Apple also shipped an Apple II on a nubus card for awhile. (might not have been Nubus but it's a card that plugs into some of the Scully era Macs.)

I have one somewhere around here in the old Apple junkbox.

Re:Wrong direction?

[Anonymous Coward]

K. S. Kyosuke: You've been called out (for tossing names) & you ran "forrest" from a fair challenge http://slashdot.org/comments.p...

Define personal computer

[tepples]

From the Time article:

I [...] still believe what I wrote back in 2011 when I said that all the general-purpose devices we use for computing and communications–desktop computers, laptops, smartphones, tablets and maybe even a do-everything console like the Xbox One–are PCs. They just happen to come in a variety of form factors, with different capabilities.

To me, it's not a personal computer unless the person who owns it controls what computing is done on it. Nintendo has rejected games such as The Binding of Isaac, and Apple has rejected applications such as WiFi-Where. This makes these platforms not general-purpose. Thus there's no "do-everything console" unless you count set-top Android devices such as OUYA or set-top PCs such as the forthcoming Steam Machines.

Re:Define personal computer

[BasilBrush]

Thus there's no "do-everything console" unless you count set-top Android devices such as OUYA or set-top PCs such as the forthcoming Steam Machines.

OUYA failed big time. In fact we've had consoles for nearly 40 years, and no open console has ever succeeded. So maybe, just maybe, that's not what people want. There's no big demand for an open console.

And lest anyone says that open phones have been successful. (Leaving aside the dubious claim to Android openness.) Android phones have been successful by being the cheap option. Not by being the open option. The mass market isn't like the niche that populates Slashdot. They neither know nor care about this concept of "openness" in software.

Re:Define personal computer

[CronoCloud]

To me, it's not a personal computer unless the person who owns it controls what computing is done on it. This makes these platforms not general-purpose.

Fine, if you're going to be THAT literal, they are "special purpose personal computers. They don't HAVE to be general purpose.

Nintendo has rejected games such as The Binding of Isaac,

BoA's developers were stupid to even try to port to the 3DS. Nintendo, far more than Sony or Microsoft tries to portray itself as "the choice for families who want their games to be 'safe' ". Nintendo's portables skew a bit younger than average. BoA's religious content would be considered too risky to publish by Nintendo. BoA's developers would have been better off going for the PS4 and Vita.

Re:Define personal computer

[Anonymous Coward]

I disagree. There has never been a time when you could not write software for your personal device (at least since Apple provided a compiler for IOS). You may still complain about file system accessibility, but you can write personal software for your IOS device.

Re:Define personal computer

[gauauu]

I disagree. There has never been a time when you could not write software for your personal device (at least since Apple provided a compiler for IOS). You may still complain about file system accessibility, but you can write personal software for your IOS device.

You can't write personal software for your iOS device without paying a $100/year subscription. (Well, you can write it, but you can't run it) I'm sorry, I don't want to have to pay a subscription to write software for my own device.

Re:Define personal computer

[R3d M3rcury]

Not a great analogy.

There is, in theory, a market force involved in running AS400 software on your Windows PC. It is conceivably possible for someone to write and distribute software to run AS400 software on your PC. If this were to occur, you could run AS400 software on your PC.

Conversely, the reason you can't run WiFi-Where on your iPad isn't that nobody has done it, it's that Apple won't allow it. Someone else is deciding what is appropriate for you to run on your iPad. It's not "the invisible hand of the market" or anything like that--it's that the company that made the product says "No."

Re:Define personal computer

[RedWizzard]

You can't write personal software for your iOS device without paying a $100/year subscription. (Well, you can write it, but you can't run it) I'm sorry, I don't want to have to pay a subscription to write software for my own device.

You can write anything you like in HTML5 and run it. In fact many "real" apps are just wrappers for a webkit widget running an HTML5 application.

Re:Define personal computer

[Anonymous Coward]

This isn't sufficient evidence for dismissal. There have been, what? Five companies that have put out consoles that anyone would call a success? Maybe a few more if you count some of the obscure ones from the 80s. The fact that none of the few open consoles have succeeded in that tiny group isn't indicative of anything. It takes huge resources to make a console happen these days.

Same for smartphone operating systems - Android, iOS, Windows Phone... how many failures can you think of? Blackberry, Palm... Off the top of my head, that's it. The market just isn't old enough to be drawing those kinds of conclusions.

Re:Define personal computer

[Anonymous Coward]

... we've had consoles for nearly 40 years, and no open console has ever succeeded. So maybe, just maybe, that's not what people want.

Microsoft pushed tablets for years, but there was no big demand for them until the first iPad.

Sometimes things just need the right combination of features and/or capabilities before they succeed.

Just sayin'.

Re:Define personal computer

[m.dillon]

To be fair though HTML5 apps, and I run a few of them (Google's gmail app for the ipad for example) aren't anywhere near as smooth as native apps.

-Matt

Re:Define personal computer

[justthinkit]

Android phones have been successful by being the cheap option. Which comes from being the open option.

FTFY

Re:Define personal computer

[tepples]

Fine, if you're going to be THAT literal

Sometimes I start out literal in order to clear up definitions so that the debate doesn't degenerate into talking past each other.

they are "special purpose personal computers. They don't HAVE to be general purpose.

The problem comes when one owns only specialized devices and suddenly wants to do something that needs a general-purpose PC. When someone discovers that a particular task requires buying a general-purpose device, he may end up just refraining from the task entirely after seeing the sticker shock of buying the first general-purpose device. See also betterunixthanunix's comment. And there's a precedent: the transition from Commodore 64 to Nintendo Entertainment System.

Re:Define personal computer

[BasilBrush]

Android phones have been successful by being the cheap option. Which comes from being the open option.

Not really. It's actually widespread licensing. The completely open AOSP hasn't really been that successful. It's the version with Google's proprietary components that has been. And it's made for cheap throats because widespread licensing has meant there's cut-throat competition amongst no-name Chinese manufacturers.

There's no magic about open source. It's been entirely unsuccessful with consoles as already pointed out. And it's been largely unsuccessful with PCs.

Re:Define personal computer

[BasilBrush]

Microsoft pushed tablets for years, but there was no big demand for them until the first iPad.
Sometimes things just need the right combination of features and/or capabilities before they succeed.
Just sayin'.

Oh I absolutely agree. I'm not saying an open console couldn't succeed. If it was a winner in every other way, the openness wouldn't stop it being a success. What I'm saying is that openness itself isn't something that most people care about.

Back to phones, and Android isn't successful because it's open. It's successful and it's also open.

Re:Define personal computer

[mjwx]

Thus there's no "do-everything console" unless you count set-top Android devices such as OUYA or set-top PCs such as the forthcoming Steam Machines.

OUYA failed big time. In fact we've had consoles for nearly 40 years, and no open console has ever succeeded. So maybe, just maybe, that's not what people want. There's no big demand for an open console.

And lest anyone says that open phones have been successful. (Leaving aside the dubious claim to Android openness.) Android phones have been successful by being the cheap option. Not by being the open option. The mass market isn't like the niche that populates Slashdot. They neither know nor care about this concept of "openness" in software.

An open gaming platform has been around longer than consoles, in fact it's always been more dominant than consoles.

Its called PC gaming and its been extremely successful as it's survived where console manufacturers have come and gone.

Re:Define personal computer

[archont]

Nobody cares about openness. A lot of people care about having control over their phone. People have been busy removing simlocks since before the iPhone was on the drawing board. Today we have android xposed, ad-blocking plugins..

Android casually does what iOS is deliberately restricted from doing. This is why openness matters, not because you can get a look into the sources.

Re:Define personal computer

[BasilBrush]

Its called PC gaming

And it's a different category of device. Gaming tends to be a fringe benefit, if they are played at all, rather than the purpose for the PC.

Whilst PCs on totality might have always outsold game comsoles, that's because they are sold for many other purposes other than games. Like business. For sure consoles have massively outsold the dedicated PC gaming rigs.

What's with the attempt at a distraction? Can't you just accept the truth of what's being said? No open games console has ever been successful.

Re:Define personal computer

[RedWizzard]

To be fair though HTML5 apps, and I run a few of them (Google's gmail app for the ipad for example) aren't anywhere near as smooth as native apps.

True, but for software you're writing for yourself that's probably not a big problem. The poster I replied to claimed you couldn't write and run software on your iOS device without paying the developer subscription. That's simply false, I've done it myself.

NO

[Anonymous Coward]

IT IS FAIL BECAUSE IT DON'T RUN LOOOOOONICKS!

sldkfjelk flkjwlkejlkj flkj flkej flkj elkj slkj flkje

Multi user setup

[TeamSPAM]

I would like it if different pass codes unlocked to different layouts. This way I can have a more restricted layout and app for my son.

Re:Multi user setup

[NotSanguine]

I would like it if different pass codes unlocked to different layouts. This way I can have a more restricted layout and app for my son.

But then you wouldn't need to have one for you *and* one for him. Those Apple folks need to buy new yachts, my friend. What are you trying to do, kill the global economy? Geez Louise!

Re:Multi user setup

[KingOfBLASH]

The problem is this sort of "improvement" will help you but few other people. Sure a few other power users might start using it, but it's not something for the general public in the sense it's not worth the resources to create.

Re:Multi user setup

[Tony Isaac]

Maybe you should consider an Android tablet...Android already does this.

Re:Multi user setup

[Slime-dogg]

This seems like a decent idea. Perhaps a feature request over at apple.com would result in a higher probability of success than discussing it here.

Re:Multi user setup

[Anonymous Coward]

Absolutely disagree with you. Every parent who lets their kid play with their devices quickly learns how much trouble they can cause. An unlock screen that unlocks to different profiles would be a great selling point for families with children. Also for households like mine, where the iPad sits on the coffee table and either me or the wife has to be the one who uses the app, while the other uses the website. Multiple log-ins could allow us to have the same app in two different profiles log in to two different accounts. On top of that, sharing means you'll want more space for everyone and bumps the profit margin when someone springs for the higher capacity.

Re:Multi user setup

[KingOfBLASH]

Or the current situation creates a need for N tablets in a house of N people which is no doubt more profitable then the bump in sales of higher capacity models you might get.

If people were screaming for this we'd have it, but as it's a corner case and already solved (in a way that is most profitable to the tablet companies) I wouldn't hold my breath waiting for when it comes out

Re:Dead on Arrival for Geeks

[NoNonAlphaCharsHere]

Agreed. If only there were an OS that had the same user experience for phones, tablets and PCs...

Not surprising

[Registered Coward v2]

The tablet market gas gone through the early adopters and is maturing. It also appears to have a longer replacement cycle time than say cell phones, probably do to cost and newer models do not necessarily offer must have features, unlike phones which go from 2G-3G-4G LTE. Cost also figure into replacement time.

Right know, iPads and other tablets are good enough, even several generations old ones, for the uses that do better on a tablet than a cell phone but don't need a PC to be acceptable. For example, reading eBooks, browsing the web, light office suite use, etc. Despite speed increases and better screens, a Gen 1 iPad is still pretty good at that so there in no compelling reason to shell out $500 or more for a new one.

That said, tablets need to migrate beyond the "it's a mobile PC" mentality to becoming an information appliance that is used to get desired information in a variety of settings. In short, a mobile gateway to information that is now accessed in other ways and where a PC is to cumbersome and a phone too small.A good example is Synology's video viewer app. You can access videos from the NAS on an iPad (or phone) and use airplay to put it to a TV; bypassing a separate PC server for playback. If you leave the room you can continue to watch on the iPad or send it to another TV in the room you go to. In short, the iPad is the common connector for a better viewing experience; not a replacement viewer.

Re:Not surprising

[Lumpy]

Phones are slowing as well, Short of me breaking it or the battery dying, I can easily see my HTC ONE M8 lasting 4 years. It's probably why HTC made sure the battery was not replaceable in the phone... to ensure it will stop working.

Re:Not surprising

[Grishnakh]

It's probably why HTC made sure the battery was not replaceable in the phone... to ensure it will stop working.

Wow, and that's probably my favorite feature of my current HTC phone. I guess I won't be getting another HTC.

Re:Not surprising

[Lumpy]

Their flagship they intentionally made it not repairable in every way. The battery is actually BEHIND the LCD screen, so when it swells at the end of it's life it will shatter the screen.

They could have made the phone 1mm thicker and made the battery replaceable.

Re:Not surprising

[FlyHelicopters]

The phones are going that direction as well.

We had a pair of Galaxy S3 phones, and upgraded to S4 phones to get the better CPU, 1080p screen, and a few other features.

The S5? Meh, nothing to see there, move along...

The S6? Meh, what can they add, a 1440p screen? for the size, 1080p is just fine, media hasn't grown all that much, maybe when it has a 4k screen and the world moves to 4k content.

It is fast, runs everything I throw at it, I have no reason to replace it.

Will I? Yes, probably for the S6 or S7, probably every 3 years now, when I used to replace every year.

Likewise with the iPad.

Re:Not surprising

[Dixie_Flatline]

My iPhone 4 has already last me 4 years. The main limiting factor, honestly, is whether or not the device is getting current OS updates. Because my phone will be dropped from support this year, I've finally decided it's time for a new one.

If HTC can keep the M8 up-to-date for the next 4 years, I see no reason why it wouldn't be able to do the same.

Re:Not surprising

[Grishnakh]

Thanks, I'll definitely avoid that. What a POS.

Any recommendations for a new(er) phone? My current one is a HTC Sensation 4G. I'd like to have something I can put an alternative ROM (maybe CyanogenMod) on, and I'd prefer a removable SD card, and require a replaceable battery. I actually replace the battery in mine (and my wife's; she has the same model) quite frequently when away from home too long. I have a set of replacement batteries and a standalone charger, and this has been extremely useful.

Re:Not surprising

[Lumpy]

HTC cant keep a 3 month old phone up to date. Luckily the community around android sprung up to support phones where these companies refuse to.

HTC has the absolute worst record on updates, it's because they allow the carriers to whore out the phones hard. When I got my HTC ONE M8 the first thing I did was unlock it and jailbrake it (S-OFF) so I could install a clean Google Play Rom and get rid of all the garbage that HTC slapped on top of android, and then AT&T slapped on top of that.

Apple wins in the User experience because they will not allow the carriers to shovel all the crap they want into the phone ruining it.

This is the dirty underbelly secret of android that none of the fanbois will admit. Android is really only good for hackers and techies, because what they allow the carriers to do to the phones utterly ruin Android and the experience of using the phone.

Re:Not surprising

[Anonymous Coward]

Phones are slowing as well, Short of me breaking it or the battery dying, I can easily see my HTC ONE M8 lasting 4 years. It's probably why HTC made sure the battery was not replaceable in the phone... to ensure it will stop working.

Regarding the replaceability of batteries in phones: it appears that ALL phone makers have now opted to have non-replaceable batteries, except Samsung and the Chinese non-brand makers (the various anonymous brands that aren't even members of the Open Handset Alliance). So in that sense, the situation is quite sad.

Needless to say, for me the battery issue is a deal breaker, so I am a quite happy owner of a Galaxy S3.

Re:Not surprising

[Uberbah]

It's probably why HTC made sure the battery was not replaceable in the phone

You should check and see if there's some kind of prize for being the first person to complain about swappable batteries on a non-Apple product.

Re:Not surprising

[Dixie_Flatline]

I agree, and it's a major reason why I haven't switched and don't have plans to. I dislike the telecom companies more than just about anyone, so Apple wins points with me just by being a different major power that pushes back against them.

Realistically, the biggest change that Apple made to the smartphone market wasn't really the tech--that probably would've happened in due time if Apple hadn't done it; Jobs probably pushed the schedule up somewhat--it's that they dictated terms to the carriers and not the other way around.

Re:Not surprising

[vux984]

Phones are slowing as well, Short of me breaking it or the battery dying, I can easily see my HTC ONE M8 lasting 4 years. It's probably why HTC made sure the battery was not replaceable in the phone... to ensure it will stop working.

It cost me about the same to pay someone to replace the battery in my old iphone 3GS for my daughter to use as I paid for a replacement battery for my old Motorola RAZR.

The battery my not be "swappable", but it IS "replaceable".

Re:Not surprising

[Bing Tsher E]

Consumer replaceable batteries are very expensive. It's much, much cheaper to sell 'sealed unit' products than do the Customer Support for devices people can open. Also, many companies are not really up to the task of designing in a removable battery compartment. Apple's last attempt in a mobile device, which was pretty shitty, was the Newton.

Re:Not surprising

[Tough Love]

Android is really only good for hackers and techies, because what they allow the carriers to do to the phones utterly ruin Android and the experience of using the phone.

Other than the fact that your claim conflicts with the marketing numbers, there is no need whatsoever to buy your android phone from a carrier.

Re:Not surprising

[m.dillon]

*NO* Android vendor keeps their phones up to date past one or two updates, and sometimes not even one. They can't, because their business model isn't compatible with keeping old phones around. They need sales volume to make any profit on their thin margins which means they want their customers to 'upgrade' to new hardware as often as possible.

Even the Motortola's (when Google owned them) were woefully behind (and still are). I think of all the devices over a year old only Google's nexus series is running a reasonably recent version.

Apple only needs customer retention (which they have), and has additional revenue streams after the iOS device has been purchased, so Apple's business model is very different.

-Matt

Re:Not surprising

[Lumpy]

Yes, the ONLY android phone to buy is the Nexus from google directly. Everything else you have to spend 2 hours unlocking and flashing a rom that doesnt suck.

Re:Not surprising

[Lumpy]

Except for the tiny $800 unlocked handset extortion price. But most everyone has $800 as pocket change laying around, so that is not an issue.

Re:Not surprising

[Lumpy]

My nexus phone I had before this had 4 updates applied to it from Google and still receives them. I'm just tired with how slow a nexus 4 is.

Re:Not surprising

[Lumpy]

Exactly, apple did not intentionally make the battery not replaceable. HTC on the other hand Did intentionally place the battery where it is the hardest to access, and when it swells will destroy the phone.

Re:Not surprising

[Grishnakh]

Does it have an easily-removable battery and SD card though? According to my quick search, the answer is no. That makes it completely unusable for me. If my wife can't change it while away from home (like when sitting on a bus, or in the car), then it's useless to me as a replacement for our HTCs.

Re:Not surprising

[vux984]

Can you clarify that ... are you saying that the battery actually cannot be replaced even by a phone service center?

I've read the M8 reviews, and i always got the sense that it was as 'non-removable as an iphone battery' in that you weren't going to carry around batteries and swap them at will, but if the battery died or degraded to where it only held a nominal charge you could take it somewhere and have it replaced with a new one.

Re:Not surprising

[Tough Love]

Nexus 5 unlocked, $393

Re:Not surprising

[Lumpy]

Yes. the service center WILL NOT replace a battery. you will get a replacement phone at a pro rated price. but for the first 6 months they will replace the phone for free if you break the screen.

Oh and NO screen replacements are possible, again pro rated pricing for replacements.

Re:Not surprising

[Plumpaquatsch]

Nexus 5 unlocked, $393

And the no-profit price is also the reason why Google actually only makes a few of them, officially to sell them to developers. "Only 19 left in stock."

Re:Not surprising

[Tough Love]

"Only 19 left in stock."

Or could it be because they are really popular. Care for a Moto G for even less?

PC's are not morphing

[X0563511]

Stupid-ass designers are forcing that shit down our throats without our willful participation.

Re:PC's are not morphing

[Anonymous Coward]

Stupid-ass designers are forcing that shit down our throats without our willful participation.

Thank you. I'm glad someone noticed the Borg mentality with this ubiquitous desktop bullshit.

The iPad is not a truck (sorry Ted Stevens)

[tepples]

From the AppleInsider article:

As for iPads, Cook still believes tablets will quickly replace PCs

That's not what Tim Cook's predecessor thought. Steve Jobs always used to claim that iPhone and iPad are to the Mac as cars are to trucks. The iPad is not a truck. Case in point: I'd be surprised if tablets replaced Apple's own PCs for running Xcode.

Re:The iPad is not a truck (sorry Ted Stevens)

[jedidiah]

Not quite.

Jobs and the collective was clearly of the opinion that "most people don't need trucks". Thus the whole "truck" terminology. For a clueless urbanite, it's some kind of slur.

Jobs tried to generalize his own narrow ideas about consumer choices in BOTH areas.

Re:The iPad is not a truck (sorry Ted Stevens)

[CronoCloud]

Jobs and the collective was clearly of the opinion that "most people don't need trucks".

They don't. Most of the guys, and it is mostly guys who own trucks, use them as penis compensators driving to their cubicle jobs.

"Commercial" trucks owned by businesses are a different story.

Same goes for PC's. Most people are content consumers. While they might have a PC for some purposes, it doesn't have to be a high end "Ferrari" PC, it can be a sub-compact "Hyundai" PC, and they can do a lot of their computing on a tablet or phone.

Re:The iPad is not a truck (sorry Ted Stevens)

[CastrTroy]

The iPad sure couldn't replace a desktop, but the Surface Pro is getting pretty close. You can run 4 monitors off the thing, and plug in a USB keyboard and mouse. You could also add a USB hard disk for extra storage. It could pretty much replace most people's desktop machines, an still act a very capable tablet when you want to bring it with you. It's a little on the pricey side right now, but if you don't need quite as much power, you can do similar stuff with Transformer T100, which has less power, and can only output to a single monitor, but can still run all your Windows programs. Once we're able to get enough power in a small enough form factor (I'd say we're already there), why do we need to have bulky desktop machines?

Re:The iPad is not a truck (sorry Ted Stevens)

[Anonymous Coward]

This.
The ONLY way Tablets will ever take over desktops and laptops is if they themselves change a little.

1) connectivity - Get that shit connector to hell. USB ports. Mini or whatever. At least 2. And a hub along with it.
2) expandability - must be able to connect that USB hub to a monitor to allow the screen to be sent to it. An HDMI port could be on the hub too I guess.
Or maybe a separate IO hub / cable / hybrid that connects to it. In fact, a cable / hub hybrid would be more ideal since it would be more compact.
Think of a main cable that connects to the tablet with the ports over the middle of the wire, not popping out from the side, equally centered on the top of it, facing out one direction. That could even get rid of the need for an extra USB port. Hell, even headphones if the damn USB port was made as generic as possible and not that proprietary crap.
3) freedoms - full system access. I don't think anything else needs to be said here. Good security with regards to that obviously. Stupid-proofing that can be turned off completely, that won't render the system completely vulnerable, Microsoft! Stupid-proofing and security are two SEPARATE things.
4) Battery improvements - meanwhile 15 years later, batteries are still shit. Batteries are the biggest thing holding back portable systems. I even got a battery pack a couple weeks back. (cheap admittedly, but extra 5 hours is very worth it since I do webdev, drawing and rarely gaming when at friends or on holiday and I don't want to deal with having it plugged in)
5) better screens. This is exclusive from the battery point because extra power is NOT needed for this. But it seems Pixel Qi is still MIA in regards to their screens being everywhere, which are about the only decent screens in existence. I also wish the world would get over the shiny screen fetish already, it is literally worse than Hitler. It is so pointless, it provides NOTHING but annoyances. It should be banned, not even a decision that all companies agreed on, it should be banned outright, period, done, finished. Disgusting screens.
6) The app-model dying. It is awful. Single-tasking OSes are the worst when it comes to usefulness. The Samsung multi-app windowing system is so broken at times, but it works fairly well. The problem is they never wrote a good enough wrapper that handles the oddity of apps that use finger / stylus positions, or a decent scaling system for apps that have fixed position interfaces and stuff like that. It could be fixed with the right effort behind it. That will likely not happen.

Things that could also help:
1) graphene computing, optical computing, 3D processors, obviously quantum computing but lets forget that for now, the former 3 are actually within reach, quantum is still outside of being portable with regards to room-scales, never mind hands.
2) The app-model improving. While I said it should die above, if it was made less terrible, it would improve things considerably. Permissions need to be fixed on all systems. They are all awful. You should be able to revoke permissions easily and all devs should be told they shouldn't depend on having access to things or get the hell out of the market.

Re:The iPad is not a truck (sorry Ted Stevens)

[m.dillon]

Yes, but there's no point doing that. You might as well just get a normal desktop at that point. Or a laptop if you want the portability. Which is part of Microsoft's problem. The Surface Pro is competing against *everything* which means it can get beaten out by anything.

Case in point. The thing weighs 2 lbs (the Surface Pro 2). The ipad air weighs 1 lb.

-Matt

Re:The iPad is not a truck (sorry Ted Stevens)

[Anonymous Coward]

Yeah, but the price difference between a sedan and pick-up is significant. A normal iPad costs $500, a Dell i5 costs $550. You can do a lot more with the i5 including gaming. Android tablets for $200 or less make a lot more sense. I can see a tablet costing between $100-$150 with HDMI and a microSD card slot overtaking computers as media consumption devices. But when it comes to content creation, desktops always win.

Maybe the iPad is cheap compared Apple's other offerings (*cough* iPhone for $650), but it's really not the best deal in computing. It's more like a designer luxury car.

(Hell, a car vs truck isn't that different in price either. Toyota Yaris is $14,000. Toyota Tacoma is $18,000. Options and whatnot will change those prices, but what's most important is what you can do with it. If you need to haul stuff around, the truck is the better option. Or possibly pull a trailer with a sedan.)

Re:The iPad is not a truck (sorry Ted Stevens)

[CastrTroy]

Yeah the iPad is going to win in the weight category, but only because it's so incapable of actually doing anything. 2 lbs is still lighter than most laptops/ultrabooks on the market. For $1000 you can get a Surface Pro that can replace a $600 desktop, $600 laptop, and $200 tablet, which is a net savings, plus you don't have to worry about how to sync between devices because you have 1 device that covers it all.

Re:The iPad is not a truck (sorry Ted Stevens)

[Anonymous Coward]

Nicely written.

On the truck front, how many do you see driving around with their tires replaced (stupid-large of course) and nothing in the back?
Now you may be thinking perhaps the box was empty just this time, but most of the time the box is in mint (unused) condition.

The demand for "trucks" is so high it has caused two things to happen:
1) they are priced out of the ppl who actually need them
2) manufactures start building "dumb down" trucks to cater to the ppl who want but don't need the cargo/towing capacity and just want a "truck".

On the PC front, i have heard this argument all the time. I have several kids and each has their own computer but yet ppl will tell me how they need a fancy this for high-end that. They are not allowed to play games and so the PC from 3 years ago work fine.

Re:The iPad is not a truck (sorry Ted Stevens)

[drinkypoo]

The demand for "trucks" is so high it has caused two things to happen:
1) they are priced out of the ppl who actually need them

It was always like this. The diesel was always expensive. You buy the old one.

manufactures start building "dumb down" trucks to cater to the ppl who want but don't need the cargo/towing capacity and just want a "truck".

Already happened in the sixties.

Re:The iPad is not a truck (sorry Ted Stevens)

[PaddyM]

Have you seen the classified next level 5h17? Why code when you can teleport yourself? Steve Jobs never did that either. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mVHFRNU3q_k

Re:The iPad is not a truck (sorry Ted Stevens)

[Anonymous Coward]

Or you can buy a decent desktop and tablet for less. And we totally want everyone walking out of the building carrying all their work with them, just waiting for someone to steal their tablet.

Re:The iPad is not a truck (sorry Ted Stevens)

[m.dillon]

But that's just plain wrong. If you take the entire possible set of customers who need 'computing devices', most of them will not EVER need anything more powerful than what the ipad provides. Period. That's why consumer PC sales have been plummeting. PCs and more capable laptops are still alive because they are a good fit for businesses. But in the consumer space they are screwed and it shows.

You are thinking only for yourself and not thinking with any business sense whatsoever. What you are hawking is something that only a relatively small number of people actually need. And, Frankly, Apple takes a huge bite out of even that customer group too with their line of laptops. Almost totally maintenance-free devices whereas with Windows... good luck when you break something.

Which is why my brothers and I ripped Windows out of my parent's house and replaced the whole mess with Apple gear. We spend a hell of a lot less time having to fix things.

-Matt

Re:The iPad is not a truck (sorry Ted Stevens)

[Bing Tsher E]

Most of the guys, and it is mostly guys who own trucks, use them as penis compensators driving to their cubicle jobs.

Wow, my stripped Ford Ranger, with the smallest 4-cylinder engine, must mean I really suffer from a lack of virility.

You just blew my whole self image.

Are you keeping up on the payments on your Prius? Will it be paid off before the battery dies?

Re:The iPad is not a truck (sorry Ted Stevens)

[Anonymous Coward]

If you find that a tablet can replace all three of those devices than you own at least one of them out of convince and nothing else. There is no reason that, if the Surface Pro can replace your desktop while you own a laptop, you ever needed the desktop in the first place. Owning a tablet on top of a laptop at that point is also just a matter of convenience. People who own all three devices aren't really concerned about keeping it simple.
 
And frankly? My iPad, iPhone and rMBP sync up really fine as it is. I really don't think about the separation of devices beyond base storage capacity.
 
And for what most people I know who own an iPad do with it... the iPad does plenty. Jobs was correct that a lot of people don't need a general computing device. I'm guessing you don't know as much about the iPad as you like to think you do. Yeah, you can't code on it but most people don't give a fuck anyway.

Re:The iPad is not a truck (sorry Ted Stevens)

[tepples]

If you take the entire possible set of customers who need 'computing devices', most of them will not EVER need anything more powerful than what the ipad provides.

s/ipad/ipad or nexus tablet/ and I'm inclined to believe you. Otherwise, there are several categories of application that Apple has chosen to allow to remain Android-exclusive.

[iPad and MacBook are] Almost totally maintenance-free devices whereas with Windows... good luck when you break something.

Apple fans like to talk about malware that people can get from certain foreign app stores for Android. But even that is a lot easier to remove from a device than certain Windows malware. Go into Settings, remove the app's administrative privileges (Security > Device Administrators), and uninstall the app.

Re:Dead on Arrival for Geeks

[Lumpy]

Well Microsoft has one that give you a really shitty experience across all platforms, but I don't think that is what he was looking for.

Re:Dead on Arrival for Geeks

[jedidiah]

It's not about the "user experience". It's about how much control you can exert over the system. The form factor really doesn't matter. What can you do with it? What roadblocks are the OS/hardware vendor going to put in your way?

A tablet doesn't need a "full desktop experience" to run an SSH server or a proper copy of CUPS.

As a Samsung Note user

[Anonymous Coward]

I can write on my tablet like I write on a paper pad. I didn't use paper pad in meeting anymore.
My Note Case have a bt keyboard, when I need more formal word done
I don't have one office suite for my Note, I have a lot of them to choose from, each having better fonction and read/write standard office format
My Note is a smaller computer (but more powefull for business work) than any laptop outthere

So, the IPad problem, is maybe, Apple when it didn't want to eat itself let other eat it !

Re:As a Samsung Note user

[bluefoxlucid]

I just bought a Fission and am waiting to get my hands on the new Neutrino.

It's dead already

[greenwow]

The only reason the OP claims it is dying is to try to convince us it isn't already dead. He has an obvious agenda. I don't think I've seen one of those iPad things in public in over a year. They were a fad that died-out a while ago.

Re:It's dead already

[BasilBrush]

I saw one yesterday. I had a guy in his 60s come over to me in the pub. Working class, non-geek. He saw I was using the internet on my laptop and asked how he could get his iPad on the WiFi. So I told him the AP and how to create an free account. It didn't work, I think because he pressed the wrong button on the web sign-up page. And then he wondered if it was because his old iPad was already registered.

These iPads are mass market.

Re:It's dead already

[Grishnakh]

Maybe you don't see them where you are, but they're out there. Have you not flown on a plane lately? Lots of people use them to entertain their kids with dumb movies. I had the misfortune of sitting next to some kid not too long ago while he was watching some stupid kids' movie starring Dwayne "The Rock" Johnson. What really sucked is that his mom was kinda hot, but for some reason she stuck her kid between us. I would have much preferred to sit next to her, and also not have his iPad and dumb movie directly in my field-of-view.

Re:It's dead already

[KingOfBLASH]

What really sucked is that his mom was kinda hot, but for some reason she stuck her kid between us.

Wow.

Re:It's dead already

[Anonymous Coward]

What really sucked is that his mom was kinda hot, but for some reason she stuck her kid between us.

Wow.

I know. The nerve of some women.

The Mac surpassed the Apple 2...by accident?

[xxxJonBoyxxx]

>> by accident, just as the Mac eventually superseded the Apple II

Um...do you realize that the Mac was the benefit of one of the largest and most expensive marketing efforts aimed at personal computer (lower case) consumers of all time (at the time)? And that the marketing hype culminated in a famous 1984 Superbowl commercial? (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VtvjbmoDx-I)

That was no accident, my friend.

Re:The Mac surpassed the Apple 2...by accident?

[Anonymous Coward]

Of course, the Mac also brought new capabilities to the table. Just as the iPad brings new capabilities to... well, the *table* isn't where it brings the capabilities, it brings them to the couch, the bus, the... pretty much every where *but* a table.

Re:The Mac surpassed the Apple 2...by accident?

[NJRoadfan]

Apple wasn't going to turn off the money maker that was the Apple II line right away. After all, the Mac could have failed. The Apple IIe was sold until 1993, the IIgs lasted until 1991. They had new products for the machines in the pipeline as late as 1993 such as an Ethernet card.

Re:Dead on Arrival for Geeks

[BasilBrush]

A tablet doesn't need a "full desktop experience" to run an SSH server or a proper copy of CUPS.

Guess what? In terms of sales, the ability to run SSH or CUPS is somewhat less important than the ability to run knitting pattern apps.

Tablet or phone that docks to become a PC

[tepples]

Some people want both the always-available "mobile" experience and the focused-activity PC experience. The input and output devices would obviously differ, but technically, it could be made switchable within one device. Tablet as PC A tablet with a plug-in or Bluetooth keyboard should be able to run PC software much as netbooks did. Right now, popular products implementing this are Microsoft's Surface Pro and ASUS's Transformer Book. Phone as PC Now that ARM CPUs in phones have reached quad-core, with more memory than the majority of of PCs had a decade ago, they have enough computing power to run (recompiled versions of) the sort of applications a PC ran a decade ago. A plug-in or Bluetooth keyboard and an HDMI monitor should let phones run more PC-style apps, with multiple visible windows. But I haven't seen a lot of phones that deviate from the "all maximized all the time" window management policy even when plugged into a 1080p monitor. One could do this on Android with a Debian chroot and an X11 server. The "Ubuntu for Android" project was focused on this dockable use case, where the user could start X11 and run Ubuntu apps, but Canonical recently decided to deprioritize it in favor of Ubuntu Phone.

Politically it's another story. The incumbent carriers and device manufacturers don't know how to market a phone that can become a PC.

Re:Tablet or phone that docks to become a PC

[rjstanford]

A plug-in or Bluetooth keyboard and an HDMI monitor should let phones run more PC-style apps, with multiple visible windows.

PCs that are as powerful as the most powerful phones are so damn cheap that - since you're probably syncing everything on your phone out to clout storage anyway - you may as well just have a cheap PC permanently bolted to whatever workstation you have your monitor and keyboard on. It doesn't cost very much more, its far more convenient, and it lets you optimize the experience and applications in each case without making compromises.

"Insightful"

[Anonymous Coward]

> Ben Thompson had an insightful take on people demanding desktop functionality from the iPad: 'This sounds suspiciously like the recommendation that the only thing holding the Macintosh back was its inability to run Apple II programs.

Insightful, sure. Huh? What?

Default threshold is 2. 11 comments till now and not a single one makes the bar. Either the default is too high, no one has anything important to say or moderators have been too active. And that has been /. path in the recent years. If I register, my opinion suddenly gets relevant. Yeah, right.

Well, FWIW, a tablet is a laptop. Or rather, should be. Keyboards are a dime a dozen, it's cheap to have several, one at each place one uses to go. And eventually, we'll all get that projected laser keyboard thing, just like we got absurd mouses with cameras.

But tablets still can't run whatever OS and thus I haven't bought me one. I want Linux. Not any Linux (and Android is Linux IMHO), but an independent distribution (yeah, Ubuntu will do) -- I'd even buy that M$ monstrosity if it runs Linux better than those with Android. So that you know how much I want Linux.

It must have a micro/mini/normal HDMI output, so that I can use a TV-monitor (at home and work). Some things will be on the cloud, but not just one cloud... probably two or three, plus a personal cloud. One of these days, there will be a distribution solely for cloud servers, which a normal user can configure, just like it's not that hard to configure Squid. Slap a good mobile connection (I already got one with 6Mbps) and we're game...

That, of course, is my opinion and I have a lot of these (now and then /. invites me to go away saying I posted 10 times... aren't they nice?). But I believe some other guy thinks like that, so I started talking to see where things go.

Be my guest to give it -1, as usual. At this point, I'll complain if I get "insightful" here...

Re:Dead on Arrival for Geeks

[alen]

well it's not DOA for people who spend time away from a traditional computer. i have an ipad 2 and 4

my kids play games on it
remote control for apple TV, roku, xbox and other devices
i stream live TV via the time warner cable app and netflix and HBO Go. I can watch Got in the kitchen away from my kids. i can sit with my wife while she watches american idol on the TV, i'll watch a game on the ipad
i can read a book on it
Google docs and Pages i can finally finish that novel i started writing. anywhere
i can order airline tickets and check into my flight on the couch
dozen other uses that have nothing to do with file systems or geeky stuff

Re:Dead on Arrival for Geeks

[Hognoxious]

That makes as much sense as controlling a motorbike with the cockpit of a 747.

Who is surprised by this?

[bobbied]

I'm not surprised. Face it, Ipads are EXPENSIVE toys for most people buying them. Yea, it runs IOS like a lot of phones, but at what price?

Amazon has been selling their Kindle devices for a LOT less, given what you get for for the money. I'm not a Kindle zealot (I hate that they are totally locked down) but Apple needs to face the fact that there are now other options out there that do just about everything that IPad can and they are cheaper. Add to that the large scale adoption of Android in both the handset and tablet market (including the Kindle, under the covers) and it is clear that Apple's dominance of this market is over. What can apple do? Add memory, processor speed, flash and battery life? Maybe higher resolution display hardware but what's that worth if you cannot really see a difference? Apple is about done with the tablet, unless they can innovate into something else, but what? Their run is over.

Who is surprised by this? Apple is getting its clock cleaned by Android, which is a trend I don't see changing. Not to mention that Microsoft is pushing pretty hard to stay relevant in the market. This is the problem with being in first place, everybody is gunning for you and it takes serious innovation to keep ahead of the pack. It may not be time to be short selling apple, but if I owned this stock, I would certainly have standing stop orders in place around any major scheduled press conferences.

Re:Who is surprised by this?

[m.dillon]

The real joke here is that the inventory issue was explained in the conference call and anyone who bothered to read the actual source knows that ipad sales were actually down only 3% or so, and roughly flat across two months. The whole tablet space is flattening out but all that means is that Apple will start pulling more market share from Android just as it has been doing with the iphone... in the markets that matter that is. This is more junk like the 'world wide market share' crap that's proven to be such a bad predictor of Apple's business the last year.

Apple is "getting its clock cleaned by Android"? Only if you've had your head stuffed down a rabbit hole for the last 5 years. Helps those of us who actually spend a few minutes doing real research, I suppose, but I'm just flabbergasted at how little posters like you seem to know about Apple's business when you can literally find out with only a few keystrokes in a browser.

-Matt

Re: Who is surprised by this?

[runenfool]

What can Apple do? Have a lot more good tablet apps - which they do.

Re:Who is surprised by this?

[Uberbah]

Amazon has been selling their Kindle devices for a LOT less, given what you get for for the money. I'm not a Kindle zealot (I hate that they are totally locked down) but Apple needs to face the fact that there are now other options out there that do just about everything that IPad can and they are cheaper.

You get what you pay for. Sure, that Kindle costs less than an iPad, but it's heavier with a smaller screen and slower processing.

Add to that the large scale adoption of Android in both the handset and tablet market (including the Kindle, under the covers) and it is clear that Apple's dominance of this market is over.

It's clear you're chugging the Hatorade. Zombie Steve Jobs isn't holding a gun to your head; stop treating person product preferences as a religion and buy what you want that does what you want.

Re:Who is surprised by this?

[Anonymous Coward]

Apple is getting its clock cleaned by Android, which is a trend I don't see changing.

It's hard to see with your eyes closed. Latest mobile browser usage shows Safari holding at over 55%. Android Browser combined with Chrome account for about 35%.

http://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2014/05/internet-explorer-11-passes-9-and-10-combined-windows-xp-remains-abundant/

Re:Who is surprised by this?

[Karlt1]

I'm not surprised. Face it, Ipads are EXPENSIVE toys for most people buying them. Yea, it runs IOS like a lot of phones, but at what price?

Amazon has been selling their Kindle devices for a LOT less, given what you get for for the money. I'm not a Kindle zealot (I hate that they are totally locked down) but Apple needs to face the fact that there are now other options out there that do just about everything that IPad can and they are cheaper. Add to that the large scale adoption of Android in both the handset and tablet market (including the Kindle, under the covers) and it is clear that Apple's dominance of this market is over. What can apple do? Add memory, processor speed, flash and battery life? Maybe higher resolution display hardware but what's that worth if you cannot really see a difference? Apple is about done with the tablet, unless they can innovate into something else, but what? Their run is over.

Who is surprised by this? Apple is getting its clock cleaned by Android, which is a trend I don't see changing. Not to mention that Microsoft is pushing pretty hard to stay relevant in the market. This is the problem with being in first place, everybody is gunning for you and it takes serious innovation to keep ahead of the pack. It may not be time to be short selling apple, but if I owned this stock, I would certainly have standing stop orders in place around any major scheduled press conferences.

Yes, that's the ticket. If Apple competed on price they may be as "successful" as all of the other Android manufacturers (besides Samsung) who are losing money.

Because chasing market share at the expense of profits worked wonders for all of the PC makers.....

Re:Who is surprised by this?

[Tough Love]

Apple is "getting its clock cleaned by Android"? Only if you've had your head stuffed down a rabbit hole for the last 5 years...

How like an apple toady to claim that black is white.

Reality..

So you spent a few minutes doing real research did you? Are you sure you know what that word means?

Re:Who is surprised by this?

[Tough Love]

...Because chasing market share at the expense of profits worked wonders for all of the PC makers.....

It's nice to see Apple chasing irrelevance instead.

Re: Who is surprised by this?

[Karlt1]

It's nice to see Apple chasing irrelevance instead

The most valuable company in the US with one of the highest net profits is irrelevant?

Why do developers still develop for iOS first then Android?

Game control on iPad

[tepples]

it's not DOA for people who spend time away from a traditional computer.

The problem comes when people buy only an iPhone and/or iPad and then delude themselves into thinking they wouldn't benefit from also buying a traditional computer.

my kids play games on it

How are games for iPad controlled? I'm aware of two kinds of games that work well on a touch screen: single- or two- button games like Canabalt and point-and-click games like Plants vs. Zombies. What control method would work well for a game like Mega Man or Castlevania? I tried playing the demo of Pixeline and the Jungle Treasure on a tablet, and control was so imprecise that I couldn't make jumps until I switched to a Bluetooth keyboard. So I still think keyboards and gamepads still have their place.

Re:Game control on iPad

[alen]

my oldest kid is getting into flight sims and drive/parking games
A LOT of flight sims on ipad along with drive parking games. the controls mostly suck but he likes them. the flight sims you can tilt the ipad to control the plane

depends on the games you like but there is more to gaming than FPS and console crap. if you want a running game then there is temple run. he also played jetpack joyride for endless scroller

Apple needs to add TouchID, etc

[rsborg]

Sales are down because we already have one and don't need two. The things are not nearly as disposable as people seem to think.

I'd have bought an iPad Air or new Mini if it had TouchID. We already have two iPads, but putting the v1 out to pasture would have been worth it to no deal with password entry. Also iOS7 isn't nearly as appealing for an iPad as it was for the iPhone (control center is a must for phones).

Re:Apple needs to add TouchID, etc

[Savage-Rabbit]

Sales are down because we already have one and don't need two. The things are not nearly as disposable as people seem to think.

I'd have bought an iPad Air or new Mini if it had TouchID. We already have two iPads, but putting the v1 out to pasture would have been worth it to no deal with password entry. Also iOS7 isn't nearly as appealing for an iPad as it was for the iPhone (control center is a must for phones).

I'd also buy a new iPad for touch ID but I can live without it. I was planning to get the smaller iPad model in 128Gb for extra storage. Now that there will apparently be a 5.5" iPhablet I'll probably just get one of those and buy the big iPad air once I fill the old one up with eBooks.

And longevity concerns?

[Anonymous Brave Guy]

Maybe in a couple of year's I'll replace mine.

I wonder whether part of the problem is that after having one of these devices, people aren't so keen to replace them. Our third gen iPad is about two years old, and already we have problems with app upgrades breaking things, and of course Apple themselves pushing us to upgrade to a new version of iOS that gets terrible reviews. Plus the general closed ecosystem isn't an obvious downer for most people when you buy the first time, but after finding all the little frustrating things it can't do, I can see that at least some significant proportion of users might be put off.

Tablets as a format seem to be useful for a certain niche: basically, they're good for receiving information and some basic interaction, but not serious interaction/content creation. But there are more tablets than just Apple's, and Android tablets seem to be increasing their market share at Apple's expense. So it might be a market saturation issue with the tablet format, but I suspect there's more to it than just that in the specific case of iPads.

Re:And longevity concerns?

[spasm]

"Our third gen iPad is about two years old, and already we have problems with app upgrades breaking things"

This. Same with iphones. Perfectly good hardware, continuing to do a decent job doing the stuff you bought it for, being slowly forced into obselecense by iOS and app upgrades. Which makes short term sense for a company whose core business is selling hardware - forcing people to buy a new device every couple of years regardless of whether the last device has died or not does in fact make you money. In the short term. But sooner or later your customers get tired of periodically having to replace working hardware just so they can continue to have essentially the same functionality they had with the previous device, and will switch to one of the many other manufacturers who have (by now) duplicated your functionality. The *only* reason to buy Apple hardware is when Apple does something genuinely new and their latest gadget does something genuinely useful that no-one else does yet (first gen iPhones, for example). After that it's all incremental upgrades and forced obselecense and you may as well switch to the competition until the next time Apple does something genuinely new. Assuming they continue to do so - not a guarantee for any company.

Re:And longevity concerns?

[m.dillon]

Urm. You are implying that this isn't a problem on Android devices? Sorry to break the news to you, but App incompatibilities on iOS get fixed. I've seen Apps on my ipad-2 break every once in awhile, but they don't stay broken for long.

App incompatibilities on Android, particularly when it relates to a driver bug that requires a vendor fix or app-developer work around, often do not EVER get fixed. It's one reason why apps tend to get developed for iOS first, because developing an Android app that works across umpteen different devices each with its own hardware bugs is a nightmare.

-Matt

Re: And longevity concerns?

[Anonymous Coward]

I don't see that. I have an iPad 2 that's 3 years old (from iOS 5-7) and an iPhone 3GS that's pushing 4. Not doing NEW THINGS is not taking away old ones. The normal functions have all worked for me the whole time. I did finally have to "reset and restore" the iPad 2 a few months ago, but it went 3 years out of the box never connected to a PC at all.

If you stay "between the lines" with Apple's stuff and play in their sandbox I haven't seen many problems. I have a MacBook that went from Tiger to Lion and another from Leopard to Maverick.

I would agree that iPad 2 was a REALLY good tablet. The fact that Apple kept SELLING it until just a few months ago is testament to how good the hardware is. Unfortunately, that makes it hard to sell NEW hardware. But what's not being brought up is that Apple gets a 30% cut of the Apps. I still spend $10-$20 on apps per month on a measly iPad 2. That's more revenue Apple is getting by keeping me supported than by forcing me to buy a new one. I think we're in a "golden age" of iPad 2,3,4 right now. Next year when A8 chips and iOS 8 start to really use 64-bits I think we'll see new apps make a big jump forward for things iPad 2/iPhone 5 cannot do.

The iPad isn't dead

[Anonymous Coward]

I completely agree with the fact that the tablet market is now saturated, and is the key to the slow down but isn't necessarily the only reason. Add the fact that this market is just starting to mature, and the tablet isn't just a niche product. Speaking from my own experience, my wife and I both own an iPad, we use them everyday, I would say that 70% of all my web surfing is now done on my iPad, and the rest is done on my phone or my laptop. I don't personally feel the need to upgrade every year, as it is a great piece of hardware and does exactly what I need it to do. My expectation from the iPad is that after the Apple Care warranty expires and when I break or it fails then I will look to upgrade to the newer. But by no means would I say that this is a bad for Apple, it just means that the metrics used to determine when people will upgrade need to be adjusted.

Mocking the "Post-PC era"

[Scot Seese]

"Figuring Out the iPad's Place" ?

The bathroom. So you can browse while you download.

For years we've had snobbish hipster tech journalists gleefully informing us that we are now in the "Post-PC era", that our watt-hungry desktop dinosaurs are on the way out, that they are being replaced by a constellation of sexy, small gadgets like smartphones and tablets.

Except it isn't happening.

Every one of those goddamned articles was written on a laptop or desktop computer. You, fair reader, do your job or schoolwork on a laptop or desktop PC. The many limitations of tablets makes the idea of performing any meaningful work on them downright laughable.

I have an iPad Air and Zagg keyboard case for it. Toys. Both of them, toys. Poor keyboard experience meets poor word processing experience (unless having Lou Ferrigno sized deltoids from constant arm extension is your thing) meets horrendously poor multitasking meets a giant bucket of buyers remorse.

If I didn't really enjoy playing Hearthstone on my iPad Air, I would have eBayed it weeks ago. I rarely use it for anything else.

With factory refurb'd Macbook Airs popping up on Apple's "Special Deals" page now at $599 (when in stock), the argument for buying a $500 iPad Toy to play Angry Birds on the toilet and watch "Sherlock" on that flight to Denver to visit your in-laws just.. doesn't make good sense anymore, when for $100 more you can get a real computer.

So my operating theory is - Not only are people holding on to the tablets they already own, softening sales of new models, but they have also already discovered they're horrible to type on, make overweight poor quality e-readers, have games that you tire of after 1 hour and you feel no urgent need to run out and drop $500 on a new one that will only continue to do all those things poorly, but is a tiny bit thinner.

Re:Mocking the "Post-PC era"

[MightyYar]

But when you come at them from the perspective of a smartphone user, they have some pretty nice attributes: much bigger screen, same or lower cost, easier typing, similar or better performance for the price, better battery life, etc.

Re:Mocking the "Post-PC era"

[Anonymous Coward]

Alternatively, you could get a more reasonably priced tablet (with a MicroSD card) from an alternative vendor.

Re:Mocking the "Post-PC era"

[KingOfBLASH]

Except ipads are quite a bit smaller than laptops -- even the macbook air.

Re:Mocking the "Post-PC era"

[Anonymous Coward]

The bathroom. So you can browse while you download.

Is that what you call it?

Re:Mocking the "Post-PC era"

[Dixie_Flatline]

The iPad is still more convenient than a macbook Air, if you ask me. I do a lot of reading on mine, and there are a lot of apps that I prefer to actually being in a browser. My RSS reader is generally nicer than the stuff I have at a desktop machine, and I like flipboard and tumblr better on my iPad as well. I find that I rarely sit at my desktop at home anymore because my home computing life centres more around relaxing than doing.

I'm not going to write a novel on it (though people have written novels on their mobile phones using T9, so it's not like it's impossible), but I would say 90% of my personal emails are done on my iPad or iPhone.

But the thing is that every tool has its place, and the pundits have decided that a screwdriver should try to be a hammer. It's not that the iPad isn't a useful device, it's just that it's not the useful device that a bunch of other people said that it was. I don't think Apple has ever tried to tell you that it's going to be your desktop replacement--they just want it to be another tool in your box.

Smartphones are killing the PDA!

[0xdeadbeef]

This sounds suspiciously like the recommendation that the only thing holding the Macintosh back was its inability to run Apple II programs.

No, it's like the only thing holding back the Apple II is the inability to run Macintosh programs. The thing that does more still does more.

Tablets are great for leisure, but horrible for work. Touch screens are better for some activities, but are ridiculous for typing, and don't give the fine control of a mouse.

These moronic pundits need to stop pretending that every new thing is going to replace every old thing. Sometimes the new thing is really the old thing, and sometimes they just keep existing, side by side.

No, sales are *not* down.

[Edgewize]

Apple specifically addressed this during their conference call. Sales are not down; if you look at two quarters combined, sales are flat or slightly up. Sales only appear to be down year-over-year because they had supply issues five quarters ago, which pushed sales from that quarter (which was low) into the start of the next quarter (which was high).

This is silly.

[jcr]

iPad sales are down because it's been quite a while since the last revision, and people tend to hold off their purchases if they think a new model's on the way.

-jcr

Re:Dead on Arrival for Geeks

[CastrTroy]

This is why I got the Surface 2 (not pro). It has a real file system. I can mount network drives. I can go to the command prompt (or powershell). Sure it's locked down as far as what apps you can run, but you can compile things yourself using the free version of Visual Studio. Personally I think it's a lot less locked down than Android or iPad. And the hardware is quite expandable. It has USB3, so you can plug in all kinds of external peripherals. It's not as open as a Linux tablet would be, but I don't think I've seen anything like that out in the wild that actually worked well. I think the only thing more open is the Surface Pro, but that's a little outside my price range.

Re: Dead on Arrival for Geeks

[Anonymous Coward]

I get your point, but you literally named nothing a laptop wouldn't do better. For me, all those things you mentioned are not the niche. The only way I feel like a tablet would be useful is for very mobile applications. GPS replacement. Ereader replacement. Gameboy replacement. However, for me, again, I don't feel like tablets do any of those things better. Always connected mobility and apps: smartphone. GPS: Garmin. eReader: Kindle. Productivity: laptop. I just can't think of one single reason I want a tablet. WTF do they do best?

Funny you mention Video

[rsborg]

The iPad for us is a perfect "mobile TV". In the kitchen, even on the dining table (for particularly tough nights for the kids), in the car - it's the equivalent of what would have cost us thousands of $$ in separate equipment even 5 years ago.

Problem is, the iPad1 is doing such a great job for this, that it's still around. If Apple were to innovate in this space - there are many features that could be improved - weight, TouchID, connectivity to iCloud for video, etc, we'd happily be buying a newer one. For now, the v1 is still here and works just as well as our iPad mini (bigger screen = better for video).

This is an area that's ripe for expansion - maybe a larger screen unit? Remote control (like Remote.app) to control the iPad? The possibilities are manifold.

HW maker's restriction vs. app maker's restriction

[tepples]

Strange... I control what computing is done on my iPad.

Not if a particular computing is among the classes of computing that the App Store Review Guidelines forbid. Then you have to buy a second computer (a Mac) and pay a recurring iOS Developer Program fee to take control of your device. By then, you own the hardware but lease the privilege to use it.

By your definition, a modern, high-spec Windows box isn't a 'personal computer' because I can't choose to run AS400 software on it.

You can choose to recompile your AS400 software for it, or you can run an emulator. Apple, on the other hand, forbids emulators that allow users to add their own software.

(Someone other than me made a decision which prevents me from doing so.)

It's not just "someone other than [you]". I'm referring to restrictions put in place by the manufacturer of the device on which you want to run applications, not restrictions put in place by the publisher of an application. If a particular application is proprietary, binary-only software available only for System i, it's not the PC maker that put this restriction in place but the application publisher.

Price Problem

[Moof123]

We have a couple iPads in our house, and I find myself resentful of the price to upgrade, so we haven't. The competitors are nearly as good, and cost half as much. The price points for more memory in particular outrages me. Why is anyone shipping a premium tablet starting at 16 GB of non-upgradeable storage these days!? How can you justify another $100 just to get to 32 GB?! 64 GB should be the starting point for tablets in Apple's target premium price range.

Earlier on I could understand the premium price, as the competition was simply nowhere near the polish and functionality. But the extra bells and whistles Apple has added just are not keeping pace compared to the premium they are still charging.

I long ago realized I was not in their target demographic for phone and PC sales, and now I think my next tablet is not likely to be an Apple one. Somehow they feel they are exempt from following the steady march downwards of electronics prices.

Heck I'd even be interested in shelling out extra for an iMac, but every time I check they are still not upgradeable, and come with rather underwhelming processors/memory/GPU considering the extreme markup.

Oh well.

Re:Price Problem

[ilsaloving]

The thing is, Apple doesn't sell 'product'. They sell 'experience'. How well does it work? How well does it *stay* working, over the long term?

I used to have a iphone and I had the same complaints as you. Upgrading was too expensive. Not expandable. Not enough control over the device.

So my next device was a Samsung Galaxy S3. This phone has to be the single biggest piece of shit I have ever purchased. Unstable. Burned through battery, to the point where after having owned it for only 3 months, I was getting less than half a day charge out of the thing. Sure, I got the control and upgradability I wanted, but I was forced to sacrifice stability and reliability and security.

These devices are only cheaper when you don't feel that your personal time is worth any money.

I bought a couple of landfill android tablets just so I could have something to read documentation with. Basically, my entire use case was to be an e-reader. The quality of the tablets was so bad that I couldn't even do that well. A battery life of a few hours at most. While in standby.

So now I have an iPad. It's by far the best mobile device I've owned. No, I can't plug in SD cards and expand the storage. Yes, it was expensive. But let me ask you this... how much is it worth to you to know that you can pull out an iPad out of it's sleeve and be guaranteed that it's going to still have battery life. That the screen will turn out, without fail, when you hit the power button?

Apple products are not flawless. They have problems too. There is not a single thing produced by man that doesn't have problems now and then. My iPad has crashed now and then under mysterious circumstances (rarely happens now, after the latest update...) but when you compare that to the experiences I've had with the alternatives, I'll take another Apple product hands down, because I have a life to lead and I have no interest spending my time trying to figure out why something I paid good money for doesn't want to work.

Re:Price Problem

[rainer_d]

We have a couple iPads in our house, and I find myself resentful of the price to upgrade, so we haven't. The competitors are nearly as good, and cost half as much. The price points for more memory in particular outrages me. Why is anyone shipping a premium tablet starting at 16 GB of non-upgradeable storage these days!? How can you justify another $100 just to get to 32 GB?! 64 GB should be the starting point for tablets in Apple's target premium price range.

Earlier on I could understand the premium price, as the competition was simply nowhere near the polish and functionality. But the extra bells and whistles Apple has added just are not keeping pace compared to the premium they are still charging.

I long ago realized I was not in their target demographic for phone and PC sales, and now I think my next tablet is not likely to be an Apple one. Somehow they feel they are exempt from following the steady march downwards of electronics prices.

Heck I'd even be interested in shelling out extra for an iMac, but every time I check they are still not upgradeable, and come with rather underwhelming processors/memory/GPU considering the extreme markup.

Oh well.

You are correct, you are not their target-demographic.
Their target-demographic doesn't even know what a GPU ist (or like myself, doesn't game at all and thus it doesn't matter as long as it can drive a 30" display).
But the number of people like you is actually decreasing. That's why Samsung has trouble making their numbers every quarter: the top-product they sell appears attractive only to a small number of people (geeks, people who like to tinker).
They can sell a lot of products that don't make much money, though - to people who are unlikely to spend further money.
I've got technically savvy co-workers who have disabled even the finger-print scanner on their iPhone 5S - simply because they don't want to have the slight delay.
Do you think Samsung can sell those people a phone with all those pseudo-features like eye-tracking and what else they built into their everything-and-the-kitchen-sink model?

Apple is still the king in the "less is more"-department, simply by guessing correctly the stuff people really don't want to have.

That said, I have an iPhone 4S and I've got trouble justifying the expense that is an iPhone 5S - but then, people spend much more on cars and motorbikes that depreciate to near zero after 10 years. And an iPhone is good for at least four years of solid use, if you take care of it well.

If people think Android is better value for money, they might actually be correct - but only for their definition of value.

Re:Price Problem

[Anonymous Coward]

I've got a Nexus 7 and it's battery lasts about 10-14 days while on standby. I usually keep multiple browser tabs and one or two more applications open during that period. It seems quite stable, though occasionally it "crash-drains" (it goes from 18% battery to totally drained, but only when I put it in standby and check it the next day - perhaps only the screen is turning off?).

I would think a Galaxy S3 wouldn't have those kinds of problems. Maybe it was just a defective unit.

Re:Price Problem

[m.dillon]

No, I have the same crash-drain problem on my Nexus-7 too. Actually, every Android device I've ever owned has *very inconsistent* battery draw-down when sleeping.

-Matt

Re:Price Problem

[Anonymous Coward]

Best shill of the day...And add a little FUD about "...you can pull out an iPad out of it's sleeve and be guaranteed that it's going to still have battery life"
After 3 years of hating it, I recently sold my iPad 2 for $200. 64 GB model with 3G slot. I was glad to get rid of it.
The hardware was OK - nothing better than anything else on the market. The software was horrible - if that's the "experience" I don't think it will attract anybody. iTunes is probably hated just as much as Windows 8. With respect to the iPad default software - completely unusable after the latest few OS upgrades. Is this light gray icon control on or off it it turns slightly darker gray? What is that indistinct icon squiggle anyway? There was not a single default app that I used - luckily, there were good replacements available. Now let's discuss the balkanization of content.How many ebook readers and video players do you need? Why can't they share content? And is it a long press or a swipe in this app to delete something now? Overall, I did not enjoy using the iPad at all. Horrible experience.

I've replaced it with a Samsung Note - much better user experience right out of the box. It works, and addition of a real menu button is a better user experience. With respect to longevity, I've not had any issues with previous Android tablets reliability or battery life. And my wife has had an S3 for 2 years. Still no issues with battery life or random crashes.
Shill.

Re:Price Problem

[dk20]

Shill much?

"Basically, my entire use case was to be an e-reader. The quality of the tablets was so bad that I couldn't even do that well."

Ever consider buying what you want to use the device for? Perhaps trying the product at the store before paying for it? I have some apple products (not many) mostly use Mint Linux and my Android tablet. I also own a Nook (epub) and Kindle (mobi) and use the device for what it is best at.
If i feel like browsing the net i obviously don't grab the nook. Flip side, if i plan on reading for an hour or more i grab the nook/kindle (backlit screens SUCK for long term reading).

" A battery life of a few hours at most."

Going to have to call BS here. I use my tab-2 on the train (3+ hours reading the news and listening to music via blutooth) and leave it on standby connected to a wifi to grab my mail. After running all day i usually have around 80% capacity left. The tab was bought about 2 years ago and still holds a charge just fine.

Since its not "apple locked" it runs the latest version of android via cyanogenmod.com

Re:Price Problem

[Anonymous Coward]

Yours seem to be a extreme case of bad luck. I have a Note 2, and know many people with Xperiaa, S3 and S4. Every one of these are flawless, work like a charm. Know some people who changed iPhones for Androids with no trouble at all. Others got very cheap ones, and got screwed by hardware (battery heating, lack of 3G signal...).

I own a very cheap chinese made 10' tablet with crappy specs, so I already expected some trouble when I bought it. But I didn't mind, because I wanted it as a PDF/CBR/CBZ viewer, no more, and it excels at that task. Video and audio are perfect. Games, too. Browsing, on the other side, is a real pain. Battery last less than ten hours with wifi and screen on; on standby, last days (I usually recharge at night, but sometimes forget to plug it in).

YMMV. But sure as hell you don't need Apple to have an excellent tablet experience.

Re:Price Problem

[spruce]

Undoing accidental mod

Re:Price Problem

[ilsaloving]

My reasons for going with my purchase isn't relevant to this discussion. The point is that I had an android tablet (not a tab2) that couldn't even last more than a day even if I didn't use it at all and left it on standby.

You can call bullshit on my comments if it makes you sleep better at night, but facts don't change just because you don't like them. I didn't own a tab2, but I do have an S3, and it's a steaming pile of horse shit. It's so phenominally unreliable that I can't fathom how it even make it out of the factory. I had to install cyanogenmod on it just to get control over my battery, and even then it only helped so much.

You may be happy to carry around 5 different devices depending on what you want to do. I have no interest in giving myself back strain hauling myriad electronics on top of my day to day stuff. Now I have an iPad Air and so far I'm pretty happy with it. Maybe a Tab3 or a Note would have served me just as well, but given my experience with my phone, I'll be damned if I ever buy a Samsung product again.

Re:Price Problem

[dk20]

Each time you respond it just more more and more out there.

"My reasons for going with my purchase isn't relevant to this discussion"
You said you purchased the terrible devices, not me. Do your home work and generally avoid the $50 tablets at walmart.

"You may be happy to carry around 5 different devices depending on what you want to do. I have no interest in giving myself back strain hauling myriad electronics on top of my day to day stuff."

Yeah, because at 10.2 oz (290 g) the kindle is a real backbreaker...
Oddly enough, your "ipad air" weights in at 469 g (1.034 lb) so i guess you must hire someone to carry it for you since it is almost 5 times as heavy?

Even more unusual, is that my tab 2 (581g) and the kindle total 871G which is still less then your "air".

you must really be straining your back hauling your heavy "ipad air".

Faulty reasoning.

[king neckbeard]

Claiming that something has sold a lot doesn't say anything about whether or not it's a fad. Sudden, extreme popularity is a hallmark of fads. That's not to make a claim either way, but it certainly seems that the 'Post-PC era' is not quite as Tim Cook claimed it would be.

Re:Faulty reasoning.

[Richy_T]

Exactly. If I hadn't already commented, I'd mod you up.

I personally do think they are a fad but I don't really have a dog in the hunt. They are basically a laptop without a keyboard and when you add a keyboard they become useful again so *shrug*

Use a tablet while standing

[tepples]

you literally named nothing a laptop wouldn't do better.

If you're doing something that doesn't involve typing, a tablet is easier to use while standing up and holding the device. That's the biggest advantage of tablets: they don't need to be set on a desk or lap.

Always connected mobility and apps: smartphone.

For which the carrier will want you to subscribe to yet another voice and data plan. Otherwise, it's just a 4" tablet like the iPod touch.

GPS: Garmin. eReader: Kindle.

Additional devices to carry and keep charged.

device or "brand"

[globaljustin]

ugh...TFA asks a potentially interesting question but they use all the wrong language and context to frame the question

the "iPad" is a touch-screen computer...so is the iPhone...same with Android touch screen phones and tablets

it's all small, thin computers of various dimensions with *touch screen interface* not a keyboard

another difference is **connectivity**

they can connect to WiFi, Bluetooth, "3g" cellular, "4g" cellular...some can do all...some a combination of

Kindle is another type...it has different specs and a special network (whispernet)...but it's *all the same*

so the difference is **connectivity**...not size or marketing function

that's where we have to start...now...what was the fsking question? how to sell more widgets? the "future" of a particular brand?

prediction: people will use computers and want then to be more portable and more capable

any questions?

Re:Dead on Arrival for Geeks

[Anonymous Coward]

Ubuntu?

Re: Dead on Arrival for Geeks

[alen]

i'm not going to put a laptop on the kitchen counter or my wife's legs to watch TV while i load the dish washer or make some food or sit with her on the couch

if i want a break i can have my kids play the xbox or stream netflix on the TV and i'll watch HBO Go or baseball on the ipad in the kitchen.

The iPad's place?

[Anonymous Coward]

You want to know the iPad's place? That is easy. Gazelle.com. Sell that paper weight and get an Android tablet or a PC.

It's Not a Fad

[Anonymous Coward]

Because I just bought one.

Tablet-PC hybrids show a lot of promise.

[BlueKitties]

I owned an iPad 2 since its launch, about three months ago someone broke into my house and stole it (among other things.) I decided it was time to go shopping, and finally settled on a first generation Surface Pro.

After using it for three months, I can say I prefer it over my laptop *and* my iPad. When I want to develop software, I switch to the desktop and plug in an external monitor (which means I get a second 10-inch screen to load documentation or whatever.) When I want to browse casually, I just unplug it from the extra monitor and go mobile. I don't like the screen aspect ratio (too tall and skinny in portrait) and the battery life needs work. It's also a bit heavy, and the app store isn't as rich.

Still, it has been incredibly nice to have access to my desktop and tablet all in one package. As a desktop, it's actually pretty solid. I don't do heavy media editing (most of my software development involves financial accounts) so it hasn't so much as hiccuped with what I've thrown at it. Now, I don't feel like the Surface Pro is better than an iPad as a tablet, though it's a solid desktop and a decent tablet. Still, having my desktop in such a small form factor has been a dream.

It feels like the natural progression if technology. When someone gets the hybrid-OS to work right, I could see desktops, laptops, phones, and tablets all becoming the same product in a way.

It's kind of peaked . . .

[Kimomaru]

In its current form and functionality, there's not a heck of a lot more that can be done with it. Frankly, it's kind of a limited device. Tablet apps are nice, except that you need 40 of them to take the functional place of a web browser. Web browsing on a tablet is good, but the typing interface is so hokey and prone to mispellings that the best you can hope for is to use it for basic browsing. So, yeah, I think it has peaked and personally I don't think Apple is creative enough without Steve Jobs to take the device to the next level.

Speaking of which, is Apple ever going to come out with anything that's not an interation of Jobs' creativity? Doubtful. I'm looking forward to open source tablets so that I can take Debian with me everywhere.

Re:It's kind of peaked . . .

[m.dillon]

I don't understand why you are trying to turn a pad into a laptop. Pads aren't laptops. You want to run Debian on something close? Buy a Chromebook that you can load Debian onto, like the Acer c720 or c720p.

-Matt

Re:It's kind of peaked . . .

[Kimomaru]

I understand your issue with my reasoning, but I just happen to like Debian and would like to take it with me in tablet form. I currently run it on a netbook, but it's not as portable as a tablet (you can't use it on a bed). And, also, I'm not interested in Chrome OS.

Re:It's kind of peaked . . .

[m.dillon]

Ok. Here's my suggestion then... run Debian on a Chromebook. Yes, you can run Debian on a chromebook. I know that for a fact because I have an Acer C720 in front of me running whatever the hell I want.

There are three caveats:

(1) Make sure the chromebook can run linux. Google it for the specific chromebook. Older chromebooks are locked to chrome, but newer ones tend to have a special mode that allows you to boot whatever you want. The chromebook under the hood is just a basic Intel system, albeit with a nice Haswell laptop cpu, with a few special I2C devices for the touchpad etc.

(2) Chromebooks usually only come with a 16GB SSD (M.2 form factor SATA SSD... i.e. tiny). Not enough if you are serious. Buy a bigger M.2 form factor SSD. Also be sure to configure a good amount of swap space, most of these babies only have 1-2 GB of ram in them. But paging to a SSD every once in a while is not a problem and very fast so you won't notice it.

(3) Once configured you will have to hit CTRL-L on boot to get it past the warning screen. Every time you boot.

The chromebooks based on the Haswel architecture laptop cpu's are MUCH faster than the old atom-based netbooks (I have both. huge difference). Not as fast as a higher-end laptop obviously but still blasted fast and my little Acer C720 only eats 5-8W of power... that's at least 6 hours of battery life at normal idle without going into a full sleep mode (not sure if Debian can enter a full sleep mode anyhow on these things).

-Matt

Re:It's kind of peaked . . .

[Kimomaru]

Thank you for the advice, much appreciated! Some of the chromebooks are sweet, putting Debian on one sounds like a sweet combo.

Another part of the issue...

[Anonymous Coward]

Apple has this thing where they will only do minimal incremental upgrades with each successive device. We'll bump up the camera a little bit. We'll give you multi-tasking, we're increase resolution a little bit. Then the Android market appears and all the manufacturers have to compete with each other and it becomes an orgy of features. Each new phone has the whole kitchen sink thrown in it seems in a constant race to always have the top of the line best phone. Since Apple didn't have to really compete with any other iPhone makers, they felt no rush to put in tons of features. Why do that when you can release a "new" phone every year with a few new things at a time and charge $$$ each time? What they didn't realize is that not only would Android catch up in terms of features and all, but quickly surpass them. The last 2 iterations of the iPhone were adding features that the S3 and 4 had had for the better part of a year at least. And Apple had the temerity to announce the features like they invented them and no one else had even conceived of this level of awesome yet.

A lack of any sort of real competition for their specific product left them complacent and now Android has just blown past them. The same thing is happening in the table market. iPads were awesome, but Apple's ridiculous incremental upgrade strategy to milk $$$ from customers has given Android the chance to catch up and start surpassing. And as with the phones, the often significantly cheaper devices mean people are more willing to upgrade for newer models than with a $700 iPad.

Maybe we need a new marketing term....

[ilsaloving]

I'll volunteer the term "Casual Computing".

Tablets serve one particular market exceedingly well, better than any other device produced: Casual consumption.

Flipping through email. Browsing boredpanda.com. Reading documentation. Any task where the primary interaction is absorbing content, is excellent for tablets. Especially when you are doing so in a place other than your desk. I don't need a tablet when I'm at my desk. My tablet is utterly fantastic when I'm on the bus, the train, or when I'm in bed and I really really wanna show my spouse that new Hamsters Eating Burritos video.

Trying to shoehorn tablets into being a desktop replacement is just stupid. Sure, you can approach that level by buying a bluetooth keyboard and maybe a mouse if your tablet supports such things, but why would you do such a thing when using an honest to god computer is so much better for the task?

Turning them into a phone-replacement is a possibility, but only within a very limited range of use-cases.

Having a drop in sales was inevitable. Most people who really wanted one have now got one.

Re:Maybe we need a new marketing term....

[Anonymous Coward]

I agree with ilsaloving.

I use two devices at work and I drag them to most meetings - a Vaio ultrabook running Windows 8.1 and Samsung Note 10.1 - and I use them completely differently. My employer supports a Bring Your Own policy, so these are supported by the office WiFi. Top dollar, but then I'm worth it :-)

My tablet is for hand written notes (a direct replacement for my professional journal I have used for 20 years) and for quick lookup of Google search, gmail, calendar, etc. and looking at some reference documents. Casual Computing is a good summary, and except for email, almost all read only.

My Windows machine is for more serious documents, and where I need to update document or work with multiple documents at once. Also, when I get back to my desk, I have a second larger screen for "real work".

These two devices together weigh less than a single laptop only a couple of years ago. My tablet (which could have been an iPad, Android was just a personal choice), serves a niche not served by my laptop, but similarly, I can't see the tablet format (whatever the multi-tasking, etc.) matching my laptop. Swapping from one to the other gives me more virtual deskspace than a single device of any design.

I believe tablets have reached saturation point - at least in the west. Like mobile phones, everyone who needs one, has one. So we are now on a replacement rather than a growth cycle.

Specialized hardware for a specific task

[Anonymous Coward]

Tablets (of which iPad is one example) are a specific type of tool with a fairly limited range of applications. Tablets work very well for consuming content (reading web pages, reading emails, listening to music, playing a video, reading an e-book, etc). Well, reasonably well. The touch interface is limiting compared to a mouse (try clicking on the desired link when other links are nearby, no mechanism select an area, cadence-based interface for dragging vs clicking, etc) and smaller display screen is also limiting.

Trying to author content is much more problematic on a tablet. The touch interface becomes a seriously limiting factor. The lack of local storage and an accessible file system is problematic. The more limited computational power and RAM is problematic.

So for consuming content - sure. And lets face it, there is a large portion of the consumer market that doesn't really need anything more than a content consumption device. But there is a large market for content authoring devices as well, and tablets do not fill that need. Hence the need for PCs. This is also why efforts to try to make everything into a tablet (such as Windows 8) are such abysmal failures. Tablets are good for portable content consumption and the limitations of their interfaces (touch, limited or no ports, no file system, etc) are acceptable for that use case. PCs are good for content creation but require all the standard trappings of PCs (large displays, keyboard/mouse interface, local file system, moderate to plentiful ports, larger RAM, larger local storage, faster CPUs, etc).

Its the same old problem that so many technologist seem to have - I have made a hammer - I like my hammer - I will now try to make the world into a nail. Different tools for different jobs is the rule. Try as one may, you will never break that rule.

As for iPads specifically, I have not and will not buy an iPad (nor any Apple product in general) because Apple is just waiting for me to spend my money on a widget and then discontinue it in an effort to force me to buy a new widget. Witness how quickly the iPad 1 became unsupported. Apple couldn't even be bothered to maintain iOS support for the iPad 1 (it is stuck on version 5). There is no reason that the iPad 1 hardware cannot run the newer iOS's. Apple simply wants to force its user base to pony up for a new device to keep their software current. Yes, this *eventually* happens with any sort of hardware - my point is that it seems to happen *MUCH* faster with Apple than others as a general rule.

Re:Specialized hardware for a specific task

[m.dillon]

Your reasoning is just plain incorrect. Obsolescence on Android is far worse than it is on iOS. With Android you might see one, maybe two OS upgrades before the vendor stops supporting the device. App support is even worse... every device has device-specific quirks which many app vendors on Android have NEVER bothered fix.

Developer support on iOS is far better, for far longer. Apple supports their devices far better, and for far longer.

I have an ipad 1, and an ipad 2 (and many other devices). The ipad 1 is too old, period. The cpu is too slow and it only has 256MB of ram. I still see regular developer app updates for my ipad 1 but it just can't run all the apps out there due to the tiny amount of ram it has. It can barely load some web pages. It isn't the OS's fault. The OS version has nothing whatsoever to do with it (other than developers keying off the OS version when making assumptions about RAM use). Even my second-generation ipod touch still runs Pandora, which is all it is really good for with its tiny amount of ram and slow cpu.

And frankly, Apple supported my ipad 1 for far longer than any Android vendor supported my Android devices from that era. My ipad 1 is still usable. My Android devices from that era are not. They are all dead or worthless.

My ipad 2 with 512MB of ram only has trouble with the more bloated games, and its plenty fast enough for me. It is still my go-to device when I travel. If I can only bring one thing (other than my phone), it's the ipad-2 and not the chromebook and not the nexus-7.

More importantly, Apple devices are under Apple's control, not other vendors. In particular not the phone vendors. I've had to remove most of the apps from both my android phone and my nexus 7 because so many of them access *all* my personal data and accounts these days. The telcos install all sorts of crap onto Android phones that I don't want and can't remove.

On Apple you don't have to worry about that. The App has no control over what resources it's allowed to access, the user does. My next phone is going to be an iphone-6 (my current phone is a Motorola Razr M which is great except I can't run any major apps on it any more due to security issues). And, no, running an android app that forces permissions off doesn't work either... that crashes the target app more often than not (when it works at all).

So if your complaint is that Apple is not supporting their customers, it falls flat on its face. Apple is doing a far better job than anyone else.

-Matt

Re:Specialized hardware for a specific task

[dk20]

" Obsolescence on Android is far worse than it is on iOS"

Android has people like cyanogenmod.com what does Apple customers have????
To prevent my android tablet from falling out of date I just flashed it wyt cyanogenmod and now it has the latest version of Andoid on it (and it runs fine).

Go ask those macpro / macmini users who were arbitrarily cut off from Mavericks if they are happy.

Re:Specialized hardware for a specific task

[m.dillon]

Don't be stupid. Cyanogenmod is for programmers and hackers, which is exactly 0.00001% of the customers who buy these devices.

Try to at least be realistic.

-Matt

Re:Specialized hardware for a specific task

[dk20]

First, what is with the name calling and insinuation? Unable to carry a conversation without it?

How am i not realistic? I'm not a programmer and i would guess a lot of people who use it are not either. How hard is it to load an app and install it? I guess in your locked in apple world you are not able to "sideload" apps?

It is a way to get a "clean" version of android (no google apps even). I take it you cant just flash your ipad to whatever version you want? Wonder what will happen when Apple stops supporting the Ipad (1/2/3)? I will just flash my tab when it is time....

PS. while cyanogenmod does sell devices now, but they make software for a lot of android devices (there is no relationship between samsung and cynaogenmod for example.).

Re:Specialized hardware for a specific task

[knarf]

Funny, this. I don't have anything Apple as I take the 'personal' in personal computing rather serious. My brother, on the other hand, has no such compunctions and has swallowed the cool-aid. Everything Apple, nothing 'less'. He got the iPad. At more or less the same time I got a Chinese Android tablet, a rather eclectic thing riddled with buttons and a trackball, sporting an 8" 1280x768 screen and running Android 2.2 ('Froyo'). The iPad cost about 4 times as much as that Chinese tablet. The Chinese tablet had twice the amount of working storage ('RAM') but for the rest the specs were comparable. Both were capable of playing 3D games quite well, both handled multi-touch input. The screen on the iPad had better viewing angles, the one on my Chinese tablet sported a higher resolution. The iPad had better battery performance (10 hours of video on the iPad, 6 hours on the Chinese tablet). The Chinese tablet has a camera, the iPad did not.

Fast-forward to here and now. That iPad, being a first-generation device, is gathering dust. It is 'obsolete', overtaken by more modern devices. The Chinese tablet now runs Android 4.1.2. I have not taken the time yet to see whether I could get 4.4 running on it because I have not felt the need yet. Of course this Android release did not come from the manufacturer, but that was never my intention anyway. It came from my PC (as in 'personal' computer, a non-descript hunk of plastic running Linux at acceptable speed) and contains those bits I want, leaving out what I don't want.

More importantly, Apple devices are under Apple's control, not other vendors....On Apple you don't have to worry about that. The App has no control over what resources it's allowed to access, the user does.

Who do you think has more control over what their device does, you or me?

Re:Specialized hardware for a specific task

[m.dillon]

You are talking as though joe consumer can actually run something like that when joe consumer cannot. With Android, joe consumer downloads an app from the app store and runs it, and the app happily slurps all of his data. With Apple joe consumer does the same thing and iOS pops up windows asking him if he wants to allow the app to access his contacts, or his GPS position, etc.

Similarly, Apple at least encrypts everything by default. Android requires you to use an option. Apple closes jailbreaks. Android... not.

VPN? You'd better hope Google store does a better job vetting those apps because the little requestor they put up is generated by the app, not by android. Apple puts VPN apps in its store through a sieve.

Joe consumer... you know, 99.9999% of the customers of these devices, can't program a single line of code and thinks linux is some sort of marsupial.

Guess which one is more secure? I'll give you a hint: People who give a shit about the security of their data and the integrity of their device don't choose android.

Google knows this is a problem. They just don't know how to fix it. But they had better pretty damn fast because fewer and fewer people are interesting in giving away all their personal data to every little app they download.

-Matt

Re:Specialized hardware for a specific task

[dk20]

Android also asks about permissions.

jailbreak, isn't that a nice way to say your OS has a SERIOUS security issue which allows "hackers" full access to the device (root)?
Do you remember how secure it was when you could jailbreak it just by going to a website? Man, that is SUPER safe right?

Android doesn't need to fix "jailbreaks" as you don't need to jailbreak the device to make it useful, it comes that way. If Apple devices were so awsome, why is the jailbreak community so large? One of the first things i did when i got my apple TV's was jailbreak them so they can run XBMC and not be tied to itunes.

"Guess which one is more secure? " - BSD, you know the "opensource" unix IOS and OSX are heavily based on? People might think Linux is a marsupial because Apple does a better job marketing. They don't call OS-X "Darwin plus our fancy GUI" do they? Go to your mac and check the version of XNU (Carnegie Mellon University MACH kernel) and FreeBSD you are using.

if you want to talk security, people dont use apple or android but the old standard blackberry which has government approvals.

You are right, when you own the app store you can put anything you want "through a sieve" and filter out anything which :
Competes with you
Could compete with you
somethign you want to steal later

Re:Specialized hardware for a specific task

[Plumpaquatsch]

" Obsolescence on Android is far worse than it is on iOS" Android has people like cyanogenmod.com what does Apple customers have????

They have Apple, which doesn't concentrate their efforts on just a few dozen out of over thousand of devices.

Love my Ipad I, II and Ipad Air!

[Anonymous Coward]

Love my Ipad I, II and Ipad Air!

Re:Dead on Arrival for Geeks

[Rob Riggs]

I develop amateur radio hardware (shameless plug: http://www.mobilinkd.com/) and iOS devices are so locked down that my products do not work with them. Apple will not permit SPP/RFCOMM Bluetooth connections. All of my customers that use iOS also have an Android device. Many of them will stick with Android devices once they experience the features they have over Apple.

iPads may be experiencing a market decline, but tablets in general are not. Both my wife and I spend a lot of time on our tablets these days. They just happen to be Google Nexus 10s.

Kindle Fire has unknown sources

[tepples]

I'm not a Kindle zealot (I hate that they are totally locked down)

How exactly is a Kindle Fire tablet "totally locked down"? The one I tried had the same checkbox to allow sideloading of APKs from unknown sources that the vast majority of OHA Android devices have. Or did this change in the HD and HDX models?

Re:Kindle Fire has unknown sources

[bobbied]

You cannot easily load *other* sources of applications, say though Google Store. You are locked into Amazon's app store.

Can you crack into them? Sure, but Amazon is free to not consider it a Kindle if you do that. You can load your developed applications? Sure. But from the perspective of the customer, the Kindle is not open.... To you? Do what you want, but Amazon doesn't take kindly to hacking the kindle (what ever that means).

Re:Dead on Arrival for Geeks

[Hognoxious]

I take it it has a really small Shift key?

My observation?

[Anonymous Coward]

At least 80% of the iPads I see are being used for one simple, incredibly important purpose.

If you give an iPad to a child, the child behaves better.

The other 20% are being used by bored adults to entertain themselves with some content, for instance while travelling.

Re:Dead on Arrival for Geeks

[jeffmflanagan]

So what? The whole point of IOS it to make it ridiculously simple for untrained end-users. These people you speak of chose the wrong platform, and now want it to be something other than it is, so the failure is entirely theirs. If they want a phone/tablet that's like a desktop there are Windows 8, and Ubuntu phones available.

Re:Dead on Arrival for Geeks

[jeffmflanagan]

The Win 8 experience is excellent on tablets out of the box, and excellent on the desktop with the addition of the freeware Classic Shell. You have a strange idea of a shitty experience.

Consumer computer

[bussdriver]

I think it's direction is that of a consumer computer; a toy. A computer version of Swiss Army Knife but for consumers.. with all the blades made safe (dull) and it has a spork.

Most people don't need desktop computers and don't know how to even use them or care. They just have narrow tasks to perform and don't want to think about anything else or other ways to do things etc. These people when they have serious work to do will want a larger smart phone. The ability to hook a keyboard and larger screen at work might be a big need when businesses eliminate their PCs and most IT by using a set of apps on their staff's smart phones (and make IT issues be the employee's responsibility. Think of how email today has largely moved away from IT and people are expected to deal with it on their own.. that transition is still ongoing, but could foreshadow the other software used.)

But a REAL computer... with powerful open-ended software? Most won't need it. A hybrid seems a good idea today if you want both worlds but if you have little need for a tablet... and face it, almost nobody actually needs a tablet... you will stick with a nicer lighter laptop for the money. Yes, I have no tablet. It was cool to play with but I can't see it being much use to justify the expense and another device to contend with (theft, software, etc.) I don't have much need for the smart phone either, but it does offer a couple unique things... like being a phone.

I think the hybrid approach will be fairly successful. The downside is that the OS will make serious desktop software suck more while trying to find a forced hybrid of two things that probably never can meld properly. The power users will not be happy and have to seek out systems that haven't tried to dumb everything down to the lowest common denominator. Something like hollywood movies...

Re:Consumer computer

[BlueKitties]

Well, I will admit my latest experience loading Ubuntu on a VM has been a pain in the rump. VirtualBox couldn't get the resolution right, but connected to the Internet fine, Hyper-V got the resolution right but couldn't get the Internet to work. Pft.

They can replace books

[mark-t]

For people like myself, who have excessive numbers of textbooks on various science, computer science, and mathematics topics, which I always seem to be referencing regularly, devices like the iPad are ideal... almost all of the books I could hope for at my fingertips, and yet small and light enough to carry comfortably in one hand.

Obviously, they are no replacement for people who like the tactile sensation of reading, but speaking for myself, I use books primarily for their functionality and information within. This is not lost when moving to an ebook format.

The larger form factor of a device like an ipad means that I can look at a full page of information quickly and easily, without having to zoom in or pan around the page for the information I want.

About the only way they could make the ipad any better for what I like to use it for, IMO, is if they had a passive color display, so that it didn't drain the battery so quickly. Fast refresh speed is still mandatory for me, however, so current color eink displays would be a killer for me... I do not want to see any flicker as I'm quickly flipping pages looking for a specific diagram that i can't remember the exact page of, but still know generally where to find it.

Re:Secretive Democracy Alliance Meeting

[Richy_T]

If you buy it off the lunch menu, it's only $94

Cost of the cloud

[tepples]

PCs that are as powerful as the most powerful phones are so damn cheap that - since you're probably syncing everything on your phone out to clout storage anyway - you may as well just have a cheap PC permanently bolted to whatever workstation you have your monitor and keyboard on.

Perhaps my idea of a phone doubling as a PC when docked might not be ideal. But cloud storage isn't exactly "so damn cheap" when both the cloud storage provider and the Internet connection provider bill by the gigabyte. There's still a place for portable physical storage media.

Re:Secretive Democracy Alliance Meeting

[Richy_T]

Don't forget, they couldn't even get the bill through the house first as legislation is *supposed* to happen. They had to take a completely different and totally unrelated bill which had passed the house and gut it to fill it with senate nonsense.

Everyone who can afford an iPad has one

[Anonymous Coward]

Apple has a classic problem of a boutique company. Everyone who can afford an iPad already has an iPad. All Apple can do is sell new iPads to people who already have them. No one else can afford them. (The new retina iPad and iPad mini are compelling reasons to upgrade.)

The iPad mini was an attempt to price the iPad down a notch so more people could afford them, but even so the iPad is a luxury item. Everyone who can afford a yacht has one, too. The market is limited.

Considering the economic crisis, high unemployment, and lack of disposable income in general, what Apple has managed to do is staggering - convince people they need a useless, overpriced luxury item.

(The funny thing is I keep getting iPads given to me and don't even really want one.)

Re:Everyone who can afford an iPad has one

[m.dillon]

This is not correct. First of all, all devices have a life cycle. They wear out, they break, the screen cracks from a fall... with Apple's astronomical customer retention numbers pretty much everyone who owns an Apple device is going to replace it with a new Apple device. If you consider the life cycle extending to around 4 years (up from 2 years). Apple fully expected the life cycle to increase and has planned for it meticulously. The trade-in program, the frequent iOS upgrades, and the longer iOS sustain on older devices are a direct response to the phenomena.

The second problem with your assertion is that I think something like 40% of Apple device buyers are newcomers.

Apple is sitting in a very sweet spot.

p.s. Android vendors are completely screwed from the lengthening device life cycles. Every single android vendor depends on their customers buying a new device on a 2-year cycle or less, so as consumers hold onto their devices longer the Android vendors lose serious sales momentum and then when the customer replaces the device Android vendors lose market share to Apple. Android vendors have not planned for the lengthening cycle and frankly they are stuck between a rock and a hard place because they will lose even MORE sales if they keep Android more up-to-date on their devices.

-Matt

Re:Everyone who can afford an iPad has one

[gnasher719]

This is not correct. First of all, all devices have a life cycle. They wear out, they break, the screen cracks from a fall... with Apple's astronomical customer retention numbers pretty much everyone who owns an Apple device is going to replace it with a new Apple device.

Actually, you can choose to replace a broken iPad with an identical refurbished iPad for a lot less than a new one.

Re:Everyone who can afford an iPad has one

[m.dillon]

Apple makes the same amount of money either way. Doesn't matter to Apple which way you go. But for very old devices no consumer is going to replace e.g. an ipad-1 with another ipad-1.

It comes down to statistics. Apple offers deals for cost conscious consumers but a large percentage of Apple customers are either going to want a newer device or are not so price sensitive that they aren't willing to spend $200 more for a new device. In fact, a lot of customers don't use the trade-in at all and keep the old device.

So even though Apple offers these deals, garnering very high customer loyalty in the process, it doesn't actually impact their bottom line a whole lot.

-Matt

Re:Everyone who can afford an iPad has one

[Anonymous Coward]

See how this works?
p.s. Apple are completely screwed from the lengthening device life cycles. Every single apple depends on their customers buying a new device on a 2-year cycle or less, so as consumers hold onto their devices longer the Apple lose serious sales momentum and then when the customer replaces the device Apple vendors lose market share to Android. Apple have not planned for the lengthening cycle and frankly they are stuck between a rock and a hard place because they will lose even MORE sales if they keep Aple more up-to-date on their devices.

Point and click or steering

[tepples]

Parker Lewis and I hashed this out a few months ago. We found two general kinds of games that work on mobile: A. point-and-click games, and B. games where the player moves automatically and steers to avoid obstacles. In category B, the steering can be done with taps, swipes, or tilting. Are all games using the move/jump/attack paradigm "console crap" to you?

Why do they need to replace PCs or phones?

[maccodemonkey]

"They're not convincingly replacing PCs on one end or phones on the other."

I really don't get this line of reasoning.

I don't think the tablet was ever entirely meant to replace the PC. Apple has said so themselves. There are people (like a lot of people here at Slashdot) who will always need a PC. Apple hasn't said that the PC is going away, rather that for a lot of customers that previously had no choice, tablets may cannibalize a lot of PC sales. People who just need to check email and shop online no longer have to buy a PC.

On the other end... tablets replacing phones? Do I even need to deal with that one? That's just... if a tablet can be carried around in my pocket it's probably not a tablet anymore. Do I need to go any further with that?

I think the way Apple sees the future, all three categories will continue to exist, and Apple, at least for now, will continue to sell to all three categories. Individual users may choose to only buy from one or two of those categories, or maybe all three.

On the original topic: iPad sales could be down because Apple is about to release a new iPad, and consumers are waiting. There usually is a similar drop in phone sales (and indeed, this quarters sales data has shown a sudden spike in Android's share of sales for the quarter, indicating iPhone users aren't upgrading as they usually are, probably because the iPhone 6 is almost here.)

Pundits like to read way way too much into quarter by quarter data. Android's quarterly marketshare in tablets spiked this quarter as well, which again, may point to iOS users holding off tablet purchases for the quarter, as opposed to consumers abandoning tablets. It could possibly point to the iPad losing popularity, but again, that's way too much to read into over a single quarter's worth of data right before a revision. I myself am holding out on buying a new iPad (I'm several revs behind) until the new one ships. Otherwise I'd buy today.

Its place is noplace

[WaffleMonster]

Hopefully in the future the world has increasingly little tolerance for closed platforms where a single vendor reigns over all execution.

SlideME or F-Droid

[tepples]

I don't see anything stopping you from loading SlideME or F-Droid on a Kindle Fire tablet and using it. On Android, an "app store" is just an app that displays a list of other apps, downloads an APK, and fires an intent to install it. When you turn on "unknown sources", you change the installer's response to such an intent from "Block" to "Confirm first". The reason you can't install Google Play Store on a Kindle Fire tablet is that Google refuses to provide it other than preloaded on OHA Android devices. That's Google's doing, not Amazon's.

HA! It's an iFad!

[Anonymous Coward]

Seriously - why buy a junky overpriced piece of apple, when you can buy a junky but far less expensive piece of android.

Apple - same old story since their inception - twice the cost for the same (or less) hardware. BUT OH, it has the *great* iOS!!! Lol...

Re:HW maker's restriction vs. app maker's restrict

[Anonymous Coward]

Wait. So, the decision on whether a particular *store* will sell a particular piece of software controls whether the *hardware* is a 'personal computer' or not?

Because that's the only thing stopping you from running arbitrary code on an iPad that you have physical control over and access to.
Apple doesn't forbid emulators that allow users to add their own software on the iPad, they simply refuse to sell them through their store.
You want to install software that doesn't exist in Apple's store? There's multiple ways to do it, only one of them even involves *looking* at source code, much less compiling it.

In 2013 there were no netbooks

[tepples]

Trying to shoehorn tablets into being a desktop replacement is just stupid. Sure, you can approach that level by buying a bluetooth keyboard and maybe a mouse if your tablet supports such things, but why would you do such a thing when using an honest to god computer is so much better for the task?

I can think of three reasons, from most technical to most ideological:

• At the end of 2012, manufacturers stopped making 10" laptops. Only in 2014 did an affordable 10" laptop return to the market in the form of the Transformer Book by ASUS.
• Tim Cook is trying to delude the public into thinking that "tablets will quickly replace PCs", according to the AppleInsider article.
• There's a general tendency to encourage the general public to consume and be a consumer that is happy with only consuming. Someone who owns a device fit for creating works is likely to try his hand at creating sometime. Someone who owns a device only fit for viewing others' works is more likely to keep just viewing rather than spend extra to buy a device fit for creating. This proliferation of devices that are artificially limited to just viewing stunts public participation in creating works, which gives incumbent publishers a captive audience.

Victims of their own success, basically ...

[King_TJ]

When you've sold millions and millions of iPads, you've reached market saturation. I don't see why people act like it's such a big mystery where the devices will fit in or what purpose they'll serve moving forward? You can tell where they've fit in quite well by looking at how the 15 million+ iPad owners use the things today!

IMO, they're generally a portable computer device that serves as a complement to a standard PC or Mac (desktop or laptop). Their touch-screen and physical design makes them optimal for use in a few situations where notebook or desktop computers aren't (standing up and walking around, or lying down in bed, for example). The relative lack of internal storage capacity and lack of a physical keyboard make them inferior for many tasks you'd use a standard computer for, by contrast. Not everyone will get any use out of an iPad, but others will find it so useful for their particular needs, they can forego a laptop they used to use.

I think we'll see iPads fall into a nice, steady purchasing cycle where people get a replacement one every 3 or 4 years or so -- as the batteries quit holding a good charge on the old one, or when they drop one and damage it -- and can't justify the repair cost vs. just considering it an upgrade opportunity.

Tablets are toys

[Geof]

I have an iPad Air and Zagg keyboard case for it. Toys. Both of them, toys.

I agree. Tablets are almost entirely without practical use. With one exception: reading PDFs.

I bought mine for reading role playing game PDFs as I am running out of shelf space. It is *great* for that. What I find rather stunning is how useless it is for anything else. I had thought tablets were toys, but after the success of the iPad I figured I was probably wrong. Apparently not.

(Mine is an Xperia Tablet Z. With its 16:10 screen and 224 ppi it's perhaps not as good as an iPad for PDFs, but it's not as locked down, it's light, and on sale with its SD card slot it was 33% cheaper. At least until !@#$ing Google neutered the SD card with Android 4.4, but that's another story.)

Re:HW maker's restriction vs. app maker's restrict

[angel'o'sphere]

You can choose to recompile your AS400 software for it, or you can run an emulator. Apple, on the other hand, forbids emulators that allow users to add their own software.
This claim is outdated and meanwhile wrong/ no longer true.

However being able to program directly on the iPad is still very limited and the main reason I won't buy another one any time (for surfing the web my iPad 2 is good enough)

An idea for a new rotating tool

[tepples]

I remember well in the 1970s that every man had his electric drill, and a series of attachments [for various tasks]. But now there is no need for that. You can buy dedicated tools for all those things, at cheap prices. All thanks to Chinese manufacturing.

Which means that if you have an idea for a new rotating tool, you can't just ship it as a drill attachment and expect a wide audience. You have to find your own Chinese company to manufacture a whole new dedicated product for you. Likewise with iOS: there are apps that just can't be made for it.

And that's the trajectory for computers. Starting as a general purpose computing device for all tasks. Then broadening out into many computing devices, each of which is better than the general purpose computer for a subset of tasks.

Say you were to ship video games as individual computing devices that each have their own screen, controller, and battery. After the introduction of the Game Boy, which could play programs that come on Game Paks, I can only think of one company that seriously tried building a business around that: Tiger.

It won't replace the general purpose PC

Thank you.

Re:An idea for a new rotating tool

[BasilBrush]

Which means that if you have an idea for a new rotating tool, you can't just ship it as a drill attachment and expect a wide audience.

You can ship it as a drill attachment. But of course it won't be as successful as a dedicated power tool with it's own motor would be. What's the problem there?

each of which is better than the general purpose computer for a subset of tasks.

Say you were to ship video games as individual computing devices that each have their own screen, controller, and battery.

Which part of "subset of tasks" did you not understand? The games console is an excellent (and early) example of exactly this trend. It's a specialized computing device that takes on a subset of tasks from the general purpose computer.

There are still some games that the general purpose PC is better at. But that doesn't stop the console being widely successful, with apparently most families in the developed world having at least one.

Another good example is the smartphone. And before that the MP3 player.

You have to be dumb if you can't see that the tablet is just another example of more specialised computing device, that makes the PC incrementally less important, but doesn't replace it.

Re:An idea for a new rotating tool

[tepples]

You can ship it as a drill attachment. But of course it won't be as successful as a dedicated power tool with it's own motor would be. What's the problem there?

In this case, a "dedicated power tool with its own motor" would correspond to shipping a device with a processor, screen, battery, and just the one app on it. I don't think we're nearly at that stage quite yet. So what's an underfunded startup to do?

Which part of "subset of tasks" did you not understand?

The part where people either usually do or usually do not own means to accomplish something outside that subset should something outside that subset become required.

the tablet is just another example of more specialised computing device, that makes the PC incrementally less important, but doesn't replace it.

I'd like to get clear on what you mean by "doesn't replace it". So long as households don't shift from PC-and-tablet to just tablets in the foreseeable future, there isn't quite as much to worry about. Or will a substantial number of households feel satisfied with only iProducts and MSFT/NTDOY/SNE game consoles?

Re:Secretive Democracy Alliance Meeting

[Anonymous Coward]

WTF does this have to do with iPads?

Anyway, the Koch Brothers are the poster boy for the Republicans, so I'll tell it to you in a simple soundbite you can hopefully understand:

Republicans are the party of the rich (esp. those involved with oil and defense contracting).
Democrats are the party of the rich (esp. those involved with finance, Hollywood, and health insurance).
There is no party for the little guy.

Shouldn't it be more
Republicans are Capitalists - Those who work hard prosper
Democrats are Socialists - We don't want to hurt anyone's feelings, by telling them they can't have the same things as the people who work hard, So we will take from the the people who work hard and give to the lazy.

I apologize if this offends anyone but it is truly how I see politics.

Rent a truck

[tepples]

Most of the guys, and it is mostly guys who own trucks, use them as penis compensators driving to their cubicle jobs. "Commercial" trucks owned by businesses are a different story.

I'll admit the car/iPad analogy is a bit strained. You have recurring fees to register, insure, and park each vehicle that you don't have to quite the same extent with a computing device, which discourages people from owning both a truck and a car. Because they occasionally use a truck to haul or tow, they use the truck to commute because it's cheaper than owning a second vehicle for commuting. Otherwise, I guess people who occasionally need a truck can rent a truck. But can people who occasionally need a PC rent a PC?

Most people are content consumers.

And artificial lockdown only reinforces this by discouraging people from even trying to create something. The car analogy here is that people get discouraged from shopping for furniture because they know they don't own a vehicle that can haul it home.

Apple's secret guidelines

[tepples]

Apple, on the other hand, forbids emulators that allow users to add their own software.

This claim is outdated

This brings me to another ideological point about the iPad with which I disagree. Google and Microsoft publish the guidelines of their respective app stores. Apple, on the other hand, treats its App Store Review Guidelines as a trade secret and locks them behind a $99 per year paywall. Is there a public log of important changes to the Guidelines that I should be reading?

and meanwhile wrong/ no longer true.

Several years ago, Apple pulled a Commodore 64 game from the App Store just because the user could reset the emulated C64 into BASIC and key in programs. I'm aware that Apple has loosened up since then to the point where Codea and Python exist. But I thought emulators on the iPad were shipped with a handful of ROM or disk images and locked down to run only those images because of restrictions in the Guidelines against downloading executable code. When did this change? Which emulators that run on the iPad let the user add his own images?

Re:Apple's secret guidelines

[angel'o'sphere]

AFAIK that Commodore emulator got banned from the appstore because it could load arbitrary code from the internet. That means you should have been alowed to hand write your own basic code on it. (But I never tried that one).

Regarding your first question, Apples rules are openly published in the Apple forum. There is no developer account required for it.

Re:Apple's secret guidelines

[Karlt1]

This brings me to another ideological point about the iPad with which I disagree. Google [google.com] and Microsoft [microsoft.com] publish the guidelines of their respective app stores. Apple, on the other hand, treats its App Store Review Guidelines as a trade secret and locks them behind a $99 per year paywall. Is there a public log of important changes to the Guidelines that I should be reading?

http://photos.appleinsider.com...

Re:Apple's secret guidelines

[tepples]

Regarding your first question, Apples rules are openly published in the Apple forum.

If they are, then please help me improve my Google query. I tried Google site:discussions.apple.com review guidelines, but the result still said suck it up and pay $99 to read them.

Re:Apple's secret guidelines

[angel'o'sphere]

Create an Apple-Id and search the forum directly?
Or the other Apple-Developer sides? Afaik the max you need is an Apple-id, I once where an registered developr and still use the same Apple-ID assigemd to it, but I'm not a paying developer anymore, however I still saw the "rules" for the apple app store, the last time I checked.

Prevents users from adding software otherwise

[tepples]

So, the decision on whether a particular *store* will sell a particular piece of software controls whether the *hardware* is a 'personal computer' or not?

Only if the hardware includes a mechanism to prevent users from adding software from outside the store. All iPod touch, iPhone, and iPad devices come with this mechanism, which Apple charges a recurring fee to disable.

Re:Secretive Democracy Alliance Meeting

[Anonymous Coward]

Not offensive at all, but does deserve some discussion.

First when we speak of Republicans and Democrats we have to understand that these are political parties, they are loosely based on ideology implemented as a vehicle of political power. Each in their own way is imperfect, so when we look at the ideology we need to be aware that the party and the ideology are very different.

Republicans/Democrats = conservative/statist ... kind of

Generalization: The conservative believes in the rights and liberties of the individual while the statist believes in the needs of the state or the collective.

Socialism is a form of statism. Republicanism is a form of conservatism.

This is all a simplification and avoids a lot of relevant explanation that I just don't have time for right now, and you likely wouldn't bother reading. But consider; Republicans are often branded as the party of the rich, the fat cats, the evil rich capitalists. Would it surprise you to know that the richest people in power in congress are the Democrats?

Democrats are often branded as the party of the people, the party for the little guy. How does that fit in with the uber-rich makeup of the Denmocrats in power?

Republicans are often branded as the conservative, free market, robber barons who do not care for the poor or the middle class. Let's look at some modern day robber barons; Bill Gates, Democrat; George Soros, huge Dem; Jeffrey & Marilyn Katzenberg Democrat; Tom Hanks Democrat; Sergey Brin Democrat. I could go on but you get the picture, this is not the party of the little guy.

Now don't start thinking I am some Republican operative either; the Republicans are detestable sell outs and failures, one wonders what their real goal is as it seems to be to insure Democrat rule by stealing votes away from any Democrat challenger, but that's another story.

What I am trying to get at; ignore the labels D and R, look to the ideology, find and understand the ideology that makes sense to you and support it in any way you can. Personally I believe in conservatism, liberty, libertarianism and despise statism,

Oh and if you didn't catch it in there this gives rise to another lie. Liberal. Are Democrats liberal? Liberal used to refer to liberty in the form of individual liberty, that is individual rights. The Democrats are all but anti individual rights, and yet they call themselves the liberals. Try it like this:

I support liberal gun rights, I want more people to have and to excercise their right to keep and bear arms (responsibly of course). This is *not* a Democrat position, they don't want you to be able to defend yourself. They want you to be dependent on them (the state) to protect you and they don't trust you to be able to handle a firearm; the Democrats and the opposite of liberal when it comes to real individual rights and liberties. How do you like that?

Re:Dead on Arrival for Geeks

[Anonymous Coward]

my lenovo tablet with windows 8 sucks. its terrible.

therefore your comment is invalid and microsoft should pay me instead of you foe your comment.

Re: Dead on Arrival for Geeks

[Anonymous Coward]

What the fuck is wrong with you people, that you absolutely need to watch TV on a mobile device whilst loading the dishwasher? I'm really starting to hate the human race and how pathetic it has become.

The surface is runied by the horrible keyboard

[brunes69]

The only thing that keeps me on my Lennovo convertible ultrabook (Yoga) is the fact that when I unfolded it it has a REAL keyboard. So I can use it in my lap on the couch, inverted on a bed, wherever and whenever without needing a flat surface to put it on. Whoever at Microsoft thought this horrible surface non-keyboard was a good idea should be let go. It is the whole reason the platform suffers sales wise... everyone who sees it dismisses it, and rightfully so because it is so limited.

Re:Dead on Arrival for Geeks

[Anonymous Coward]

Guess what? Your wrong. A quick search of the App Store on the iPad shows there are 76 apps for 'knitting pattern' and 122 for ssh. I don't know about CUPS but the iPad does support printers.

Ssh is more important than knitting to the tablet consumer. Not surprising really when you consider that anyone who buys a computing device is more in something related to computing then not.

I have almost complete switched to using a tablet except for programming, gaming, and CAD. But I do agree that 90% of people just use a computer (desktop or otherwise) for Facebook, Instagram, or whatever.

It's place? Just about perfect while on the toilet

[Anonymous Coward]

And no, I'm not being snarky. I'm being serious. I have an older iPad, and when I first got it I was all excited. I'd carry it with me everywhere. And maybe even use. Some times. Or not. And increasingly not. Then I started leaving it home, and it sat next to the recliner. It was very nice to grab it, look up what was on TV. Or do a quick search for oh-what's-his-name-he-was-in-that-movie to settle an argument. Or look at what the weather was going to be right outside my window. But it left obtrusive, this sudden burst of light in the dark room. Then, because I am a man, I took it into the bathroom. For science. And then left it there. And there it has stayed, nearly perfect for catching up on email, browsing twitter, watching youtube videos, reading the news. So I don't know what this says about the future of the device, but I know I am very happy with it (finally) now that I've found its place.

Changes since 2010

[tepples]

Is there a public log of important changes to the Guidelines that I should be reading?

[Link to PDF]

From the last page of the linked document: "Copyright 2010 Apple". I was aware of the leaked 2010 edition of the Guidelines, but I just wondered if someone had been publicly keeping track of the changes between then and May 2014. Some Slashdot users have given me a hard time for not having updated my analysis of the 2010 Guidelines to track changes to Apple's policy since then.

Who cares about storage?

[Radical Moderate]

Agreed, iPad prices are too high. But with cloud storage as cheap as it is, who cares? Why would you want to store a ton of stuff on a device the size of a paperback that can easily be lost, destroyed, or stolen? I'm not being snarky, it's a real question. I'm not a pack rat and don't really care about movies or music, so my devices are essentially empty. But honestly, how much media do you have to carry on a device that's almost always connected to the cloud?

Safari for iOS lacks support for all these

[tepples]

You can write anything you like in HTML5 and run it.

Only if Safari for iOS supports the particular object that you're using. There are a lot of device features that have an object in HTML5 but which Apple refuses to implement. For example, Safari for iOS doesn't support WebGL (3D graphics), getUserMedia (camera and microphone access), or even uploads of any content-type other than photos or videos.

In fact many "real" apps are just wrappers for a webkit widget running an HTML5 application.

And sometimes wrappers such as PhoneGap have to implement support for device features that Apple refuses to make available in Safari. Anything made with such a wrapper still has to go through the official developer program.

Re:Safari for iOS lacks support for all these

[RedWizzard]

The post I replied to claimed you couldn't write *any* software for iOS without a dev subscription. That's false. Of course there are limitations with HTML5, just as there are limitations with any platform. I contend that the limitations are unlikely to be an issue for 95% of people who want to develop something for their phone/tablet but won't pay $100 per year to do it.

Re:Safari for iOS lacks support for all these

[tepples]

I contend that the limitations are unlikely to be an issue for 95% of people who want to develop something for their phone/tablet but won't pay $100 per year to do it.

They were an issue for iamhassi, who was disappointed that a WebGL visualization of brain function, when run on Safari for iOS, produced an error message that was allegedly "short sighted and naive", and claimed that the developers "don't want to do the job".

Re:Safari for iOS lacks support for all these

[RedWizzard]

You'd have a point if they were developing for a phone/tablet. But they weren't, so how does that example counter my position?

Re: Secretive Democracy Alliance Meeting

[Dzimas]

What those of us outside the USA find befuddling is that Americans truly seem to believe that the Democrats and Republicans represent a profound left wing - right wing split,when in the broader spectrum, both parties are profoundly right wing, with a heavy emphasis on capitalism and authoritarianism. Just because the current president is pushing the notion of socialized medicare doesn't mean that the country is teetering on the brink of a Marxist revolution.

Content consumption..

[Anonymous Coward]

The place for tablets is when a user wants to consume content. This is kinda like the old market for netbooks. They act as eBook readers, (limited) web browsers, eMail clients, video players, etc. The thing is, consuming content may not benefit from faster processors, more RAM, etc. You buy a new tablet when your old one doesn't support the new CoDec, or when it breaks. Consumers benefit from a better screens, better CoDecs, longer battery life, lighter weight, and more durability.

Tablets are not replacing phones because the tablet makers do not enable phone functionality in them. They generally do not include cellular radios, or bluetooth headset compatibility. (Nokia was doing both of these 10 years ago with Maemo Linux, before they abandoned their ability to dominate the smartphone market due to some kind of inside sabotage.)

My credentials: I was using SmartQ tablets for more than a year before the iPantyLiner was released. I have never been so insulted in my life as when an English teacher who had seen my SmartQ at least twice a week for the last year asked me (a week after the iPantyLinter was released) if my SmartQ was a cheap clone of the iPantyLiner.

Today I use Windows 7 based tablets, as does everyone with a clue. With Windows based tablets going for $200-$300, there is no excuse for anything less.

Re: Secretive Democracy Alliance Meeting

[Anonymous Coward]

You're naive if you think the rich work hard and the poor doesn't.

All rich I know is from the hard work done by the poor people below them.

Doesn't matter how big something is,

[PJ6]

when growth finally levels off some marketing jackass declares it dead.

Re:Secretive Democracy Alliance Meeting

[Richy_T]

The simple truth: Always worth modding down from the left.

Pricing

[Anonymous Coward]

Consumer electronics are not priced the way you imagine.

Entry-level products are priced cheaper to attract more consumers. These models often sell the most. But the lower margins must be corrected by selling high-end products for a greater profit. This usually isn't a problem, since these products are low-volume/niche market to start with.

In other words, if Apple only sold a 16GB iPad, it would likely cost more than it does now. And if they only sold the 64GB model, it would likely cost less.

This pricing structure is standard in many industries.

Ipad killed the laptop and the smartphone (for me)

[Anonymous Coward]

After i bought an ipad (mini) i got rid of my laptop and went back to ye olde buttonphone.
3 weeks stantby on the phone, big screen to read my rss:es when i commute.
Then i have a good old box @ home.
I beleive the laptop will be more of a niche product than the pad. Give it time.

Flashback

[Plumpaquatsch]

Most comments here are likely copies from posts made in the "Apple introduces iPad" discussion. Including the same wrong claims like the inability to use a real keyboard. With the same dumb people doing the same dumb moderations.

Just having an Apple ID is not enough

[tepples]

I have an Apple ID and have completed the free developer registration on this Apple ID. But I still got the "unauthorized" error when I tried to view the Guidelines while logged in with my Apple ID. Perhaps having paid for the iOS Developer Program in the past is enough to let you keep access to the revision of the Guidelines that was in effect when your iOS Developer Program subscription expired.

Re:Just having an Apple ID is not enough

[angel'o'sphere]

Ah, that is possible, perhaps a bug even (to my advantage?).
However I had acces to one of the most recent versions, not to my old one, as at that point the app store did not even exist?

Step out to the real world

[Anonymous Coward]

Looks like these pundits circle is small. There a millions of iPad users that cannot tell the difference between their iPad and newer models except for the size and weight. Most of these users are not going to waste their money because of size and weight.
Only tech enthusiasts will buy the latest and greatest.

Re:Secretive Democracy Alliance Meeting

[Anonymous Coward]

I apologize if this offends anyone but it is truly how I see politics.

The only thing offensive about that post is your stupidity.

It's always hilarious to hear Americans - particularly today - talk about the Democrats as "Socialists" when in just about any other country they'd be far-right conservatives.

Low-volume specialized peripherals

[tepples]

[The Lightning connector's] licensing is controlled with an iron fist, compared to a lot of 1980s PCs that used standard (or at least unpatented) external interfaces [such as] RS-232 (serial ports), IEEE 1284 (parallel ports), IEEE 488 (Commodore disk interface), and NTSC (low- and standard-definition color monitors).

So you have to go back to things that haven't been used for years if no decades

Nor have 1980s PCs "been used for years if no decades". My point is that in the time of the 1980s PCs that I was talking about, these open interfaces were used.

what does having the "open" USB as a "standard" interface gain Android devices?

Open interfaces such as USB and Bluetooth allow low-volume manufacturers to produce peripherals for particular vertical markets. Sure, each single niche peripheral is used by a possibly insignificant fraction of device owners, but the sum of all niche peripherals is probably a more significant fraction.

Re:Low-volume specialized peripherals

[Plumpaquatsch]

[The Lightning connector's] licensing is controlled with an iron fist, compared to a lot of 1980s PCs that used standard (or at least unpatented) external interfaces [such as] RS-232 (serial ports), IEEE 1284 (parallel ports), IEEE 488 (Commodore disk interface), and NTSC (low- and standard-definition color monitors).

So you have to go back to things that haven't been used for years if no decades

Nor have 1980s PCs "been used for years if no decades". My point is that in the time of the 1980s PCs that I was talking about, these open interfaces were used.

Which would be a point to crow about if most interface in 1980s PC had been patent free. But even the 5-pin DIN PC keyboard interface was patented - and yes, every company using it had to pay royalties to IBM.

what does having the "open" USB as a "standard" interface gain Android devices?

Open interfaces such as USB and Bluetooth allow low-volume manufacturers to produce peripherals for particular vertical markets. Sure, each single niche peripheral is used by a possibly insignificant fraction of device owners, but the sum of all niche peripherals is probably a more significant fraction.

So instead of showing me the damn peripherals for Android devices, you give another reason why there should be some? And no, Bluetooth isn't low cost.

Re:Low-volume specialized peripherals

[tepples]

instead of showing me the damn peripherals for Android devices

There were gamepads for Android devices, using the USB and Bluetooth input device specs, long before Apple introduced gamepad support in iOS 7.

Re:Low-volume specialized peripherals

[Plumpaquatsch]

instead of showing me the damn peripherals for Android devices

There were gamepads for Android devices, using the USB and Bluetooth input device specs, long before Apple introduced gamepad support in iOS 7.

Do you mean build in gamepads (that basically aren't made anymore), or external keyboards with very few keys?

Re:Low-volume specialized peripherals

[tepples]

Do you mean build in gamepads (that basically aren't made anymore), or external keyboards with very few keys?

The latter, I think. People keep recommend the MOGA brand to me. And before that, people were all about the iControlPad, which had limited functionality with iOS but full functionality with Android.

Re:It already found its place - in the rubbish

[Anonymous Coward]

Apple is mucking around with accounting numbers to argue that iPad sales haven't decreased. They may actually be correct. However, that's a moot point. What is inescapable is that iPad sales are not growing. And, this trend is not a single quarter phenomenon. What should be troubling for Apple is that the iPad doesn't appear to be following the iPhone growth in sales and that this growth slowdown has come at a much earlier product age.

As long as Android tablet sales are growing (that's what the Fandroid keep saying, don't they?) and PC sales are falling like mad - how does that proof that tablets aren't replacing PCs for many if not most?

With the used myPads for menstral cycles.