Slashdot Mirror
How One School District Handled Rolling Out 20,000 iPads
First time accepted submitter Gamoid writes This past school year, the Coachella Valley Unified School District gave out iPads to every single student. The good news is that kids love them, and only 6 of them got stolen or went missing. The bad news is, these iPads are sucking so much bandwidth that it's keeping neighboring school districts from getting online. Here's why the CVUSD is considering becoming its own ISP.
You would have gotten the same results giving them each their own smartphone or computer.
SJW's don't eliminate discrimination. They just expropriate it for themselves.
Yes, the kids love them and yes, they probably do have educational value... but look at the mission creep. The district becoming its own ISP next? Can of worms.
Public funding for education going into internet bandwidth for widgets... well, it takes a bridging argument to say that's a good thing.
Do they not get iPads?
>> why the CVUSD is considering becoming its own ISP
Because they are in Palm Springs and money falls like leaves there?
>> Metrics are hard to come by after only a single school year
Don't they already have standardized tests? (http://www.gamutonline.net/district/coachellavalley/displayPolicy/244798/6)
iPads may seem expensive to some people but when you consider the price of traditional books, an iPad could be a bargain. When I was in school some twenty years ago, textbooks were $50-100+ a piece. They would get replaced every 2-3 years. A iPad plus some sort of open courseware could be a cheaper solution and it would be easier on the backs of the students.
All this being said, the public school I went to would replace books every couple of years. I actually spend my first six years in private school and they would keep their books for much longer. I remember one book that was around 12 years old with most being 5-6 years old.
While quite sturdy devices, iPads are not designed for rolling. Couldn't they have just carried them out? Typical government idiocy.
http://www.desertsun.com/story/news/education/2014/04/07/coachella-valley-unified-school-district-layoffs/7429571/
"The list of positions facing layoffs are varied and wide-reaching, but the largest layoffs include instructional media technicians (19), project data technicians (18)"
You buy how many iPads then start trimming IT staff ?
Not really much of an important step, get some fiber back to the nearest colo/carrier hotel/etc, one or more 10ge, a bgp ASN and some IPv6 addresses along with some IPv4 for legacy stuff and 6 to 4 NAT.
No sir I dont like it.
I read the article and it's scant on details about anything other than they're sucking bandwidth like crazy, taking the Internet down for the entire district, the IT guys were caught way off guard, and the kids and parents like them. The article doesn't talk about how the iPads (it also mentions some ChromeBooks) have improved or otherwise affected grades, education, or anything. Anyone that has actually done have insight on that? Yes, I've Googled it, but it'd be nice to hear from someone in the field. I'm looking at this for a school I volunteer at too. Bandwidth is definitely an issue.
Chance favors the prepared mind.
Perfect is the enemy of good.
They're going to have to replace all of them in two years when the battery stops charging. But since the school district has more money than it needs, they can afford it.
figure out why they are doing this in schools... everywhere...
Why do educators and parents think that just *having* these devices will be some sort of educational silver bullet?
It is much more important to figure out where they have the best value educationally and how to then integrate those benefits into the curriculum.
They always seem to have the cart before the horse.
Roll out Ipads... this is all I could think of:
http://vimeo.com/11480457
cloud based systems suck bandwidth big time.
Schools with laptops / desktops don't seem to have this much of a bandwidth issue?
That is my favorite part. How could you not foresee 20,000 devices coming online affecting bandwidth? What is you and your teams job exactly?
These games do make the rote part of learning a LOT more fun and it does capture one's attention
You make it sound like the "rote part of learning" is an inevitability, when it often is not; our education system is simply horrible. 99% of the time, rote memorization is not the right way to go about things, especially when it comes to math.
If something is so important that you feel the need to post it on the internet... It probably isn't that important.
also battery life after 2-3 years will start to go down as well.
School districts should be limited to pencils only... and, er, maybe paper... and, er, chalk... and, er, ... OMG!! Where does it end!!!
I don't read your sig. Why are you reading mine?
Once the student understands the conceptual basis behind a particular mathematical operation, there is often immense value in gaining fluency by memorization. Memorization, particularly in elementary mathematics, paves the way for more rapid and accurate mental computation later on.
20,000 students with 6 text books will go roughly $12,000,000 for the books. And a lot higher percentage of these go missing, broken or damaged. As the kids are forced to lug around a bunch of books.
If something is so important that you feel the need to post it on the internet... It probably isn't that important.
If they be come an ISP will they be forced to drop any web filters? Must drop them on request?
No forcing software lock downs or patch levels / OS limits to get on line?
Once the student understands the conceptual basis behind a particular mathematical operation
But they never do get that understanding.
there is often immense value in gaining fluency by memorization.
I disagree. It only seeks to waste people's time on useless busywork. I couldn't stand doing 40 problems telling me to find the missing side of a triangle, so I simply didn't. It was a waste of my time, and so was school in general.
By coming to understand how and why something works, you usually memorize it naturally, anyway. This is what rote memorization drones just don't understand; drill and kill is extremely inefficient, harmful to education, and unnecessary 99% of the time.
Memorization, particularly in elementary mathematics, paves the way for more rapid and accurate mental computation
I guarantee you that the study of mathematics is not about quickly and accurately performing random calculations in your head. I also guarantee you that you do nothing but degrade education when you waste time handing out pointless busywork trying to test for exactly this to people who are either already capable of doing it, or do not need to do it. We have computers and calculators for that, and no, using a tool does not mean they don't understand anything, which is what the focus should be on anyway.
If something is so important that you feel the need to post it on the internet... It probably isn't that important.
"The only students at the school sans iPad, Dr. Adams says, are a very small number who turned it down on religious grounds."
Who would turn down a free iPad?
Actually, rote memorization has its place
99.999% of the time, it simply doesn't.
especially in math.
I disagree.
There was a paper a while back
There's a random paper for everything, including for me. The fact that some papers exist that come to some conclusion means nothing, since they're likely just coming to arbitrary conclusions based on flawed tests. Our way of measuring proficiency is flawed to begin with, which is why I reject current tests.
that found that kids you memorized things like their multiplication tables performed better at higher level tasks.
Solving 40 multiplication problems that all ask you to do the same thing does nothing but waste your time on useless repetition. It won't magically make you understand the material any more than digging a giant hole in the ground with a spoon would; the information is simply not there.
By making low level steps reflexive, brain power was freed up to work on more complex parts of the problem.
Math is not about speed or memorizing facts, but about understanding. You're not just solving random, arbitrary problems, either. This is a poisonous mentality that is spread by awful educational systems all over the world.
If something is so important that you feel the need to post it on the internet... It probably isn't that important.
"How one school district threw millions of dollars down the drain"
Ooh, shiny.... must be useful for educational purposes....
The school my 9 year old son is at is pushing for parents to donate so they can buy iPads too.
Given iPads are like $400-500 each and a good Android tablet is maybe $150 (and also has access to a lot more useful free software than iPads do), this kind of crap makes it obvious that the education sector is at least very badly managed and more likely very corrupt. I'll bet that someone high up in the education department is getting a very nice fat kickback from Apple.
Just because of this locked-in pro-Apple money wasting mentality I refuse to donate or vote for the very populist local props in my area that want to raise our taxes to give more money to supposedly underfunded schools. Its already very clear that all they are all planning to do with any extra money is blow it on yet more overpriced Apple products.
I'm also having a hard time understanding why a 9 year old kid needs an ipad at school in the first place at all. After talking to the principal and class teachers at my sons school its very clear that they think that ipads in the classroom are somehow a self-evidently good thing, and have no solid justification other than "because tech===future". They are clearly just throwing iPads at kids and hoping something good will come of it, rather than the iPad actually being a necessary tool and part of a larger well-considered strategy with already tested/proven benefits.
I'm sure most kids would say they need an iPad too but if my 9 year old son is anything to go by, at least 99% of them secretly just want it only for gaming or as some kind of trendy fashion accessory.
See I've been there myself. I remember back in the 70's when I was a kid, the excuse/lie that a PC would help with homework was the standard and accepted way by me and all my friends.of getting a new gaming machine.
As such I believe that the onus still lies with the schools to show that iPads in the classroom are not actually just another distraction that comes between the student and the teacher. Assuming they can do that, then they still need to show some real justification why 3x $150 Android pads is worse than 1 $450 iPad with respect to actual benefit in the classroom.
Mi original iPad is having his 4th birthday in 4 weeks.
The bad:
- It's not compatible with iOS 6 or 7.
- It has problems with very JS-heavy websites (mostly those filled with Facebook and Twitter buttons that run in their own iframe and display number of likes and that kind of thing) which make it crash due to lack of RAM. Saner sites (such as Slashdot) work perfectly.
The good:
- It still works perfectly for reading books and comics, which I bought it for, music apps, playing videos, Facebook and Twitter etc. I haven't run across many non-compatible apps... mostly modern 3D games.
- I assume the battery life has gone down, but to me it's not noticeable.
And I believe the iPad 2 will last longer, because it was a big jump in terms of CPU and RAM and can still run the latest iOS.
As a Slashdot discussion grows longer, the probability of an analogy involving cars approaches one.
They've been shoving computers into school since at least the Apple II days, if not earlier. I'm not seeing much of a coherent effort to actually use them in some transformational way. I mean, if you're going to go with flip classes (pre-recorded lectures at home, problem sets at school) then this is probably a necessary step. If you're just going to keep teaching in the same way then this seems like a massive boondoggle. Sure, the kids and parents will love it because they're not paying the full price for it, it'll be subsidized by increased property taxes on everyone who lives within the district.
You don't actually think digital text books are free, do you?
I deployed 150 iPads to a group at a business conference at a large Marriott hotel. We crashed the entire hotel network about 5 times. Right before we ran a video conference out of the country, we had to disable the wireless access points to make sure it didn't crash again during the video conference. They do suck bandwidth. I believe many were running Netflix and YouTube and goofing off during the meetings sucking up tremendous bandwidth. They were supposed to be running WebEx which was plenty heavy on the bandwidth. I can imagine the school is sharing bandwidth with other schools and they didn't consider how much bandwidth they needed. We knew we were going to pound the hotels network but they were unwilling for us to have Verizon install a network for our use. We had to use the hotel network which was outsourced to a rink dink vendor.
What percentage of that bandwidth was iOS7 updates? Would it be better to place machine(s) at each school in the network to cache the updates rather than acquire additional bandwidth or become an ISP. I could see that when they all update it could clog the entire school network making operations impossible. Apple's documentation: "software updates can be cached on a local network server running OS X Server so that iOS devices do not need to access Apple servers to obtain the necessary update data." Back of the envelope calculation 200MB average per update (very conservative) 10 updates since iOS7 20,000 iPads 200 * 10 *20,000 = 40,000,000 MB = 40 TB At 1 Gbs = 40,000 * 8 /60 / 60 /24 = 3 days of full bandwidth.
$35,000 was a decent Salary in 1980.
Lets inflate that 2% per year over 34 years. ( x 1.96)
Merely adjusted for inflation, that should be:
~$59,000 (from $30,000) to ~$69,000 (from $35,000)
$5/hr was also the median minimum wage for student-like jobs in 1980-85 (~10,500/yr). Over three decades later most States don't even have a minimum wage at $10 or above.
A 9" Nook HD, with Google Play now included (without hacking) is $179.99. The older version with 16GB on-board flash can be had for about $50 less.
Imagine all the savings if you only read the Bible / Quran.
Yes, because learning and memorizing the formula to calculate the volume of a cylinder or a sphere or a cone was completely useless before I had learned the multi-dimensional calculus required to actually derive and understand what those formulas really meant.
You're confusing mindlessly reciting proofs with actually having an intuitive understanding of why these things work.
I notice that you don't even respond to the fact that the GP specifically mentions multiplication tables in respect to memorization.
Multiplication tables are garbage, and I never wasted my time with them. Again, math is *not* about memorization and speed. Humans are tool-using creatures, so make use of tools for the repetitive stuff. Plus, you'll likely memorize much of the multiplication table on your own without making a specific effort to memorize it, like I did. If you don't? Well, you obviously don't need it all that much, anyway. Don't waste your time, and instead focus on true understanding.
If something is so important that you feel the need to post it on the internet... It probably isn't that important.
They can't figure out how to allocate bandwidth to prevent starving out the critical users of their network and they want to run their own ISP?
By golly, you're right. People who want to do simple arithmatic calulations in their heads are fools. They shouldn't learn how to do simple practical things like work out the square footage of a room with a simple calcuation in their head. They should remain helplessly tethered to a calculator, because you think it's more important to barrel on to learn how to press buttons to make the useless-to-them higer math calulations (woo. that laplace function helps make them a better carpenter!) jump out of their calulators.
No, never mind. You're wrong. Fuck you.
"how one school district wasted millions of dollars of your money to let kids fuck around on facebook."
BeauHD. Worst editor since kdawson.
Didn't Apple create an app for schools / educators / kids that would allow them to create content for the iPad ON the iPad? Samsung and Amazon treat their devices as content consumption only, and that's a weakness of the Android platform.
Remember kids, if you're not paying for the service, YOU ARE THE PRODUCT THAT IS BEING SOLD.
That's why I liked math a lot more then chemistry in school. In chemistry you had to memorize tons of specific terms.
Yeah, iPads are something like $300-$400 new (I don't know exactly, but hectobucks for sure). Handing thousands of them out seems generous and all, even if they are sold at a discount.
Apple (and other companies) are smart to try to be the first one to have their technology put in front of young people. Once the kids get hooked on the brand, many will stick with the brand for life.
Take the OP summary and replace the word "iPad" with "pack of Marlboro cigarettes" and see how this all hits you. It really is they same type of "hook 'em young" advertising that Big Tobacco got slammed for doing.
Hopefully these future technology consumers are learning something through the process.
Left MS Windows for Linux Mint and never looked back!
Vote for Bernie in 2016!
If you expect not to be tied to a calculator for life, then there are some facts that need to be memorized. The three things that come immediately to mind: the addition/subtraction tables, multiplication/division tables, and the order of operations (i.e. PEMDAS). The concepts for each of those topics are simple, but I get daily use out of the tables that I rote-memorized in grade school.
Beyond that, I'd agree; generally, rote memorization is harmful, and when you get into real mathematics, those facts aren't as useful. I don't see math as the real reason that we teach arithmetic, though. It's useful to be at the grocery store and easily know how much you're going to be paying total if you're buying 4 items at $6.49 and 5 at $2.37. If you disagree about the purpose of memorizing those facts (for most people), or the usefulness (in daily life) of having memorized them, then I'm not going to try to convince you. Your replies sound like you're just trying to be contrary, anyhow.
It is pitch black. You are likely to be eaten by a grue.
If teachers' unions ever agree to let teachers be paid based on how good they are - rather than just by seniority - you might actually see more attractive salaries for good teachers. You might also see more bright people interested in taking up the profession if they knew they could make a better living doing so.
The problem is in the measuring of "good" - this is realistically best measured in terms of outcomes - i.e., the better a student does a the end of their scholastic engagement, the teachers involved should be rewarded. Problem: this takes long-term thinking and doesn't profit private interests.
Some teachers had a profound impact on my education. I spend the majority of my educational years in US schools, after immigrating here. The impact could not likely have been measured within the year. You would have to have looked at my performance at the end of several years, or my matriculation out of the school to accurately see what those experiences did for me.
However then you run into the problem that a similar students in similar classes with perhaps abusive home environments, or being unlucky enough to live in more dangerous neighborhoods (gangs, drugs) who might have completely different scores - so you'd need to also cross-correlate with socio-economic factors to get a true view (i.e., factoring out economic standing, and possibly more uncomfortable factors like ethnicity and type of household like single-income vs. dual, vs. single-parent, etc).
All this shit is hard. And doesn't profit those who want to cash in on the education cash cow. So it's never going to happen. But it should.
Make sure everyone's vote counts: Verified Voting
I never memorized multiplication tables, and yet I can do such calculations quite easily.
Ah, so you count addition/subtraction on your fingers and do multiplication by iteration? Or do you mean that you didn't bother to learn the operations the way that school taught you and learned them piecemeal as you needed them? If it's the first case, I'd say that you're an idiot. If it's the second, well, to each their own, but I'd say that you still rote-memorized the tables, just in a less-structured way.
In general, I agree that rote memorization doesn't lead to education in a useful sense, but you're deluding yourself if you think that it's absolutely avoidable in all cases.
It is pitch black. You are likely to be eaten by a grue.
Is having the county itself provide internet connectivity. We already know that doesn't work.
Don't do that! School districts' should be provisioning their own upstream connectivity.
This is not the type of thing that the county should be handling.
The answer is simple..... put internet services out for bid and buy a big bandwidth contract for the school district.
Yes it's expensive..... it's where a majority of the cost of 20,000 iPads goes.
And it's not fair to be leeching off the local government's resources or forcing 100 school districts to share a limited pipe that cannot reliably meet the requirements.
Ah, so you count addition/subtraction on your fingers and do multiplication by iteration?
Why are these the only options? Nothing is strictly wrong with either of them, either.
You can memorize generalized patterns without memorizing entire tables, thereby saving time. You can memorize 'tricks' that allow you to multiply numbers extremely quickly. You don't have to go by some huge multiplication table or do multiplication by iteration, though it doesn't matter if you do. Just make sure you have an intuitive understanding of why it works.
If it's the first case, I'd say that you're an idiot.
I guarantee you that there are a number of mathematicians who have lots of trouble doing simple calculations, yet they are most certainly not "idiots."
but I'd say that you still rote-memorized the tables, just in a less-structured way.
That's a very important distinction. People memorize and learn at their own pace, and by forcing something on them, you don't give them a chance to do that, and possibly bore and/or frustrate them. This is but one problem with one-size-fits-all education.
but you're deluding yourself if you think that it's absolutely avoidable in all cases.
And that's a straw man. It happens every single time one of these discussions show up; someone says that the person criticizing rampant rote memorization is saying that memorization or rote memorization is always bad, even though they say no such thing.
If something is so important that you feel the need to post it on the internet... It probably isn't that important.
Plus, you'll likely memorize much of the multiplication table on your own without making a specific effort to memorize it, like I did.
Well now you have me confused. You eventually found it necessary to rote memorize the multiplication tables, yet you are arguing against rote memorization?
W..w..W - Willy Waterloo washes Warren Wiggins who is washing Waldo Woo.
You eventually found it necessary to rote memorize the multiplication tables
Nope. Incorrect. I made no specific effort to memorize a huge table of calculations. Instead, I *naturally* memorized the results of calculations that I saw often. 8*8 = 64. I saw such things often, so I memorized them naturally. That's what I meant. There was no big rote memorization scheme involved.
yet you are arguing against rote memorization?
Yes. There's far, far, far too much rote memorization going on right now.
If something is so important that you feel the need to post it on the internet... It probably isn't that important.
There was no big rote memorization scheme involved.
So your complaint is that kids are forced to memorize what you later found you had to memorize, but using a different method. I'm still not seeing the logic. Either way, you need to have your multiplication tables memorized.
W..w..W - Willy Waterloo washes Warren Wiggins who is washing Waldo Woo.
So your complaint is that kids are forced to memorize what you later found you had to memorize
You're straw manning me. Nowhere did I say it is *necessary*; I just said that it happened. Plenty of people don't have it memorized at all, and that's fine.
I'm still not seeing the logic.
The logic is that you shouldn't waste people's time by forcing useless rote memorization on people, thereby giving them a flawed view of education that continues for generations.
And do you think my complaints end at multiplication tables? You seem to be saying, "Aha! My misreading of your comments indicates that you think multiplication tables are necessary! Therefore, your rant about rote memorization in general has no merit whatsoever simply because it's supposedly not true about one thing in particular!" Or at least it seems that way. Otherwise, I really can't see why you can't see the logic, since the discussion isn't just about multiplication tables, anyway.
Either way, you need to have your multiplication tables memorized.
No, it's not necessary. To claim that it's necessary is simply absurd and defies all logic.
If something is so important that you feel the need to post it on the internet... It probably isn't that important.
I'm sure school kids do love their ridiculously expensive luxury tablets. A more fiscally responsible school system would have used cheaper tablets, or even required parents to buy them from a shortlist of devices which supported some minimum spec (e.g. ability to run 6 hours on a charge, read epub format books, capacitive screen, 8" or larger etc.)
this link could be interesting. http://www.stagelasers.com/15w...
Plenty of people don't have it memorized at all, and that's fine.
It's fine in the same way that it is fine to not know your state's capital. You can live without the knowledge, but if you can't even figure out what 30% off is at the mall, that's pretty pathetic.
useless rote memorization on people
Some memorization is indeed useless, and I agree that I hate it. But that doesn't mean that ALL rote memorization is bad. Addition, subtraction, multiplication are all essential life skills for anyone who ever deals with money - which is everyone.
And do you think my complaints end at multiplication tables?
No, but I do think it has a whiff of extremism: ALL rote memorization is bad. I think that is as absurd as basing all education on rote learning. I and the other poster mentioned multiplication tables because they are such an obvious example of rote learning. Your average 8 year old can memorize the table to 9 or 12 in a week or two. At that point, reinforcement and they are set for life. Sure, it's no fun - but this isn't about discovery, this is about making your brain a shitty pocket calculator... there's nothing fun about that.
No, it's not necessary. To claim that it's necessary is simply absurd and defies all logic.
What functional adult in modern society does not need to calculate percentages? I have to admit that I find your argument slightly amusing.
W..w..W - Willy Waterloo washes Warren Wiggins who is washing Waldo Woo.
but if you can't even figure out what 30% off is at the mall, that's pretty pathetic.
I don't see why you're assuming that. You don't need to memorize a huge table of calculations in order to figure out what 30% off is. Are you sure you understand what is being talked about here?
Some memorization is indeed useless, and I agree that I hate it. But that doesn't mean that ALL rote memorization is bad. Addition, subtraction, multiplication are all essential life skills for anyone who ever deals with money - which is everyone.
Your problem is that you think rote memorization is all there is to it; that couldn't be further from the truth.
And as I said elsewhere, "And that's a straw man. It happens every single time one of these discussions show up; someone says that the person criticizing rampant rote memorization is saying that memorization or rote memorization is always bad, even though they say no such thing."
Your average 8 year old can memorize the table to 9 or 12 in a week or two.
And they can also learn about how and why multiplication works, rather than memorizing specific results in a table. Or they can even memorize (Yes, memorize; if that seems odd to you, it's because you've been misinterpreting all my comments.) generalized 'tricks' that allow them to do calculations that fall outside of the multiplication table quickly.
What functional adult in modern society does not need to calculate percentages?
Sadly, I can think of a number who don't and can't. But they're still functional.
But, what's truly slightly amusing is that you think that if you don't have the results of random calculations memorized, you're unable to do math. That's utterly preposterous. I assure you that there are very intelligent mathematicians (a few said as much in other Slashdot articles) that have trouble doing even 'simple' calculations, and yet they're also very functional. They have a deep, intuitive understanding of why the math works, and don't just mindlessly memorize tables so they can know the answer to a calculation more quickly.
I reject the thinking that making a specific effort to memorize the multiplication tables is by any means necessary or even all that helpful, and no, that doesn't mean that someone won't be able to do or understand mathematics; that's just completely insane, and I have no idea how someone could come to such a huge misunderstanding. I don't know where this misunderstanding comes from or how someone could think that memorizing results is the only way to do math or calculate percentages, but it needs to vanish.
If something is so important that you feel the need to post it on the internet... It probably isn't that important.
Agreed.
My daughter got a school-issued iPad last year (junior in high school) and in my opinion it only served to distract her from studies at home (due to the constant Twitter/Instagram/whatever checking), and watch Netflix in her room rather than in the family area.
In her opinion, it did nothing to improve her educational outcomes, and only served to provide another distraction to kids in her classes. Most teachers did not integrate it into lessons at all. Many kids would simply play games in class all day. This is in a middle-class, suburban U.S. high school. After reading Amanda Ripley's "The Smartest Kids in the World", I'm even more against them in schools.
With these devices, the schools are adding more burden to the parents to control the kids' access to the devices simply so that they can get their regular homework done.
Unfortunately, it seems the "oooohhh, shiny!" perspective seems to win out with schools rather than encouraging hard work.
You don't need to memorize a huge table of calculations in order to figure out what 30% off is.
Yes, you do. Unless you want to take an inordinate amount of time or whip out a calculator. You need to have at least up to 10x10 memorized if you want to do even quick and dirty estimates.
that doesn't mean that someone won't be able to do or understand mathematics; that's just completely insane, and I have no idea how someone could come to such a huge misunderstanding.
I never made such a statement. You could do 3x6 = 6+6+6 every single time and still understand how it all works. You'll stand there in the grocery store like a retard, but you'll eventually get it done.
W..w..W - Willy Waterloo washes Warren Wiggins who is washing Waldo Woo.
Unless you want to take an inordinate amount of time or whip out a calculator. You need to have at least up to 10x10 memorized if you want to do even quick and dirty estimates.
All I can say is, "Wow." I know this isn't true, because I sure as hell don't have most of the table memorized. I have other things memorized, like general patterns and tricks that work for practically any number; I'm not confined by some table, and I can figure things out pretty quickly. I'm not actually against retaining information; just the act of forcing unnecessary rote memorization onto people as some sort of one-size-fits-all 'solution' that will only serve to make them hate a subject and get the wrong idea about what education and understanding are. If someone wants to memorize a fixed-size table of calculations just so they can solve trivial problems slightly more quickly, then fine. But that's their choice.
But I would say that using a calculator really doesn't take that much time, and you definitely don't need to memorize some table to do quick and dirty estimates.
I never made such a statement.
You did, and then you did it again right in that comment. "Yes, you do." Before, you said that you couldn't figure what 30% off is without memorizing some table, as if your ability to do math hinges on whether or not you memorize the results of calculations.
You'll stand there in the grocery store like a retard, but you'll eventually get it done.
I know there are some people who are quite slow at this, and I know there are some people who have an absolutely terrible memory (they can't even remember the damn table anyway). I guarantee that the table isn't the only way to do these trivial problems quickly, if that's what you care about. The importance of the multiplication table is severely overestimated.
If something is so important that you feel the need to post it on the internet... It probably isn't that important.
I'm gonna double quote you here:
I know this isn't true, because I sure as hell don't have most of the table memorized.
Earlier:
I made no specific effort to memorize a huge table of calculations. Instead, I *naturally* memorized the results of calculations that I saw often. 8*8 = 64. I saw such things often, so I memorized them naturally.
So do you have 8*8 memorized or don't you? I find it hard to fathom how you could see 8*7 and not immediately think "56". Can you provide an example of your thought process? That would allow me to understand what you are suggesting as an alternative and allow me to consider that my kids would be better off having that instead.
But that's their choice.
As kids get older, sure, they make more and more choices. But at the age of 8 when they learn multiplication tables, they have very few choices. The need to learn how to read, full stop. They need to learn basic arithmetic, full stop. These are essential life skills - as critical as learning about appropriate social interaction.
But I would say that using a calculator really doesn't take that much time
If you need a calculator to do 30% off, then I feel sad for our public education system. This is the reason that grocery stores get away with selling larger bottles for a higher price per ounce than the smaller bottles. Liquid Tide, I'm looking at you... If everyone spent 2 weeks rote memorizing these allegedly pointless tables when they were 8, we wouldn't have such shenanigans.
W..w..W - Willy Waterloo washes Warren Wiggins who is washing Waldo Woo.
So do you have 8*8 memorized or don't you?
I have 8*8 memorized because it happened to come up often for me. I have a few other such calculations memorized as well, but definitely not all.
Can you provide an example of your thought process?
They are simple tricks or observations, and one trick is obviously to just memorize the results of various calculations from a table. Some include moving the decimal point depending on what power of 10 you're working with, taking off trailing zeros and adding them back on later, or splitting up the problem into parts and then adding it all up at the end. There are many, and all of them are pretty obvious. I guess you could be even faster if you memorized some results from a table, if you care about that.
I don't claim to be the fastest, or faster than people who have huge tables of results perfectly memorized, but I certainly don't stand around in the grocery store like a retard.
They need to learn basic arithmetic, full stop.
Understanding basic arithmetic is different from rote memorization. There are many ways to go about it that don't involve a table.
If you need a calculator to do 30% off, then I feel sad for our public education system.
Are you talking about me, or people in general? I just said that using a calculator does not take that much time, not that I can't calculate 30% off; I can.
Besides, the public education system is completely abysmal for other reasons. And yes, many people don't *understand* percentages, but not due to the lack of any shitty multiplication table memorization game; it's due to the complete lack of focus on trying to give people intuitive understanding of how and why it all works. They're taught in a way that is basically, "Do this, this, and this, and you'll get the right answer." They won't say that directly, and they'll try to butter it up so they give the appearance that they're not teaching that way, but that is, in reality, what happens.
If everyone spent 2 weeks rote memorizing these allegedly pointless tables when they were 8, we wouldn't have such shenanigans.
They had that when I was in school, and even well before that, and many schools even have it now. Most people just forget things they don't see often, like I did. The people you speak of would be doomed either way, since they probably completely lack the desire to understand things, or don't even realize how many things they don't understand.
If something is so important that you feel the need to post it on the internet... It probably isn't that important.
but I certainly don't stand around in the grocery store like a retard.
It sounds like you have at least the entire table memorized through 9x9. I think some schools go to 12x12, but that is a minor detail.
W..w..W - Willy Waterloo washes Warren Wiggins who is washing Waldo Woo.
It sounds like you have at least the entire table memorized through 9x9.
As surprising as it may sound to you, I actually don't. I have some memorized, and that helps me find out the answers to ones I don't quickly, but that is all. My school went up to 20x20 at the time, but again, I forgot a grand majority of the ones I didn't see often, and forgot some I later started seeing often and then memorized them again naturally.
If something is so important that you feel the need to post it on the internet... It probably isn't that important.
Math is not about speed to begin with.
It is when you have maybe 45 minutes a day to teach it and you have to give timed tests. Memorization of the addition and multiplication tables is not done just for its own sake; it is done to facilitate later learning. It is done so that in classes such as algebra the teachers can skip a couple of details and still expect the students to follow along. It's done because dealing with big numbers is easier if you already know the answers for small numbers without having to calculate it out every time.
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JimFive
Please stop using the word theory when you mean hypothesis.
It is when you have maybe 45 minutes a day to teach it and you have to give timed tests.
Did you know that current tests are absolute garbage and are part of the reason the education system itself is abysmal? Maybe you should get rid of your abysmal tests that don't truly test for anything of note.
Memorization of the addition and multiplication tables is not done just for its own sake; it is done to facilitate later learning.
Pretty strange, because I never truly memorized the table and yet I understand math far better than the other students, and was learning calculus while the others were still on algebra, not bothering to do the useless busywork. Understood. Not just memorized facts.
It is done so that in classes such as algebra the teachers can skip a couple of details and still expect the students to follow along.
It's absolutely ridiculous to say that someone cannot follow along in a fucking algebra class if they don't memorize the results of calculations in a table. I have a feeling you don't really care about understanding at all.
It's done because dealing with big numbers is easier if you already know the answers for small numbers without having to calculate it out every time.
Dealing with big numbers is easier if you make a few simple observations and understand multiplication and addition. Besides that, I bet you're the sort that doesn't believe that humans are tool-using creatures, and everything should be done in one's head. There are a few mathematicians who have trouble doing basic calculations, and yet they understand math far more than most others. Math is about understanding, not speed. But saying otherwise, you are helping to keep our education system abysmal.
If something is so important that you feel the need to post it on the internet... It probably isn't that important.
Did you know that current tests are absolute garbage and are part of the reason the education system itself is abysmal?
You're talking about standardized tests, I'm referring to in classroom tests.
I never truly memorized the table and yet I understand math
You are being disingenuous. If you know 9x6 without thinking about the answer then you have memorized it, whether you ever filled out a grid with the answers is irrelevant to whether you have memorized the material.
It's absolutely ridiculous to say that someone cannot follow along in a fucking algebra class if they don't memorize the results of calculations
If the teacher is demonstrating a problem, e.g. 6x-27 = 15 and for the next step writes 6x=42 it is surely easier for the student to follow along if they can quickly see that 27+15 = 42 without having to write it out and calculate it.
tool-using creatures
You can't gain understanding if you fall back on a calculator for basic knowledge. Now, whether you think it is valuable to be able to do long division it is practically impossible if you don't know single digit multiplication. A student who knows the multiplication table will be able to complete a quiz on division while the student who doesn't, won't. I'm not saying that students should never use calculators, I'm saying that learning the basic material is important and until you've learned it a calculator is a hindrance.
As an aside, they don't seem to actually teach it as a table any longer, which is good because learning them as separate facts prevents relying on the patterns of the table format.
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JimFive
Please stop using the word theory when you mean hypothesis.
You're talking about standardized tests, I'm referring to in classroom tests.
Which are almost always equally as bad.
If you know 9x6
I actually don't. I had to think about it for a split second.
If the teacher is demonstrating a problem, e.g. 6x-27 = 15 and for the next step writes 6x=42 it is surely easier for the student to follow along if they can quickly see that 27+15 = 42 without having to write it out and calculate it.
The problem is that people are forced to solve arbitrary problems that have no basis in reality whatsoever far too often, and as a result, understanding suffers. I don't buy your logic that because someone has to think about it for a second, then they suddenly won't know what's going on.
And again, you think memorizing the results of calculations is the only way to find the answer quickly. Nonsense, I say. Understanding the process of multiplication and addition helps you make many observations that make finding the answer quicker without having to memorize results.
You can't gain understanding if you fall back on a calculator for basic knowledge.
Nonsense. You clearly have absolutely no idea what you're talking about. Using a tool often does not mean you don't understand how and why multiplication works.
A student who knows the multiplication table will be able to complete a quiz on division while the student who doesn't, won't.
Again, nonsense. That doesn't even make sense. It's clear to me that you were 'taught' using the multiplication table so you know of no other methods to quickly get the answer, and you think that people who rationally use calculators (Read: that doesn't mean they weren't taught to understand the math) to save time can't do math themselves. Nonsense, all of it.
I'm saying that learning the basic material is important and until you've learned it a calculator is a hindrance.
The basic material is important. Memorizing a table or results, however, not so much; at most, that just makes some things faster. At worst (the current situation), it helps instill a sense that education is all about memorization and math is all about speed.
If something is so important that you feel the need to post it on the internet... It probably isn't that important.
If you know 9x6
I actually don't. I had to think about it for a split second.
Sure and what did you think? You certainly didn't think 9+9 is 18 and 18+9 is 27 and 27+9 is 36 and 36+9 is 45 and 45+9 is 54, which is what you get from "an understanding of multiplication" without having any memorized answers. You seem to believe that you haven't memorized these things but if you are not counting on your fingers to add numbers together then you HAVE memorized these things, and you probably memorized them so long ago that you can't remember not knowing them. Certainly, there are tricks that make mental math easier, but those tricks still rely on you having memorized a sufficient set of single digit addition and multiplication problems.
I don't buy your logic that because someone has to think about it for a second, then they suddenly won't know what's going on.
It's not a second. If it's a second then they have enough stuff memorized to do the arithmetic. It seems that you've never worked with a student struggling with basic arithmetic such that it takes them 15-30 seconds to do 15+27, if they do it all without giving up. By that time the teacher is on a different problem and the student is falling further behind.
Using a tool often does not mean you don't understand how and why multiplication works.
Using a calculator before you understand how and why multiplication works means that you are likely to never understand. You seem to be under the impression that memorizing of tables is used in place of teaching how the operations work. Children are taught to add using tokens on a desk, dots on a line, and marks on a page, then they are pushed to memorize the single digit answers. Multiplication, similarly, starts with making rectangles of tokens and then moves onto paper before memorization of the answers.
The basic material is important. Memorizing a table or results, however, not so much
In arithmetic the only thing more basic than single digit addition is the numbers themselves.
The problem with rote learning is not in the memorization of simple arithmetic facts. The problem with rote learning in mathematics comes when you start doing mathematics instead of arithmetic.
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JimFive
Please stop using the word theory when you mean hypothesis.
which is what you get from "an understanding of multiplication" without having any memorized answers.
Nope.
You seem to believe that you haven't memorized these things but if you are not counting on your fingers to add numbers together then you HAVE memorized these things
I seem to believe that I didn't memorize a multiplication table, which is true. Stop telling me what I think, or I'll have to start doing the same to you.
I used other tricks to make multiplication more quick, which does involve retaining information, but I have no problem with that to begin with. "They are simple tricks or observations, and one trick is obviously to just memorize the results of various calculations from a table. Some include moving the decimal point depending on what power of 10 you're working with, taking off trailing zeros and adding them back on later, or splitting up the problem into parts and then adding it all up at the end. There are many, and all of them are pretty obvious. I guess you could be even faster if you memorized some results from a table, if you care about that."
I do not know a grand majority of the multiplication table, and I didn't use that here.
but those tricks still rely on you having memorized a sufficient set of single digit addition and multiplication problems.
I could see addition, but I do not know that multiplication table garbage.
It's not a second. If it's a second then they have enough stuff memorized to do the arithmetic. It seems that you've never worked with a student struggling with basic arithmetic such that it takes them 15-30 seconds to do 15+27
It seems you've never worked with someone who can do math quickly without memorizing a multiplication table.
You seem to be under the impression that memorizing of tables is used in place of teaching how the operations work.
They are. I saw it in action myself. The 'teaching' methods you describe don't go into the full picture at all.
The problem with rote learning in mathematics comes when you start doing mathematics instead of arithmetic.
The problem with rote learning is that it shouldn't exist in 99% of cases. The multiplication table is one such case.
Stop trying to push your one-size-fits-all solution onto others, and stop telling *me* what my thought process is.
If something is so important that you feel the need to post it on the internet... It probably isn't that important.
If you look elsewhere, I do not deny that I have certain results (8x8) memorized, but far from even a whole 9x9 table. We definitely had that multiplication table nonsense when I was in school. The result was that most people forgot most of them and ended up having to calculate them manually. Later, years after I left our abysmal public education system, I memorized certain results that I started seeing often (8x8) *naturally*. That means I made no specific effort to memorize anything; it just happened.
And that's really what some people prefer. Let people do things their own way, rather than shoving rote memorization down people's throats. There are certain schools devoted to this sort of thinking, but they're obviously sure as hell not our awful public (or even most terrible private) schools. And if you think doing arithmetic slowly is a problem that keeps people back from understanding algebra and other math, you'll likely never understand the real problems. Not understanding how and why addition, multiplication, etc. work can hold people back, but most people don't understand any of it anyway. It has very little to do with memorizing tables.
If something is so important that you feel the need to post it on the internet... It probably isn't that important.
So, when you do the problem 7*8 what is your thought process?
You seem to be hung up on the idea of a literal table of math problems, while I think I've been pretty clear that I'm referring to a figurative table that is the collection of 45 single digit problems that make up the basics of symbolic arithmetic manipulation. And, I think it is safe to say that you have a significant number of them memorized.
Please stop using the word theory when you mean hypothesis.
We definitely had that multiplication table nonsense when I was in school. The result was that most people forgot most of them and ended up having to calculate them manually.
Seriously? You think that MOST people in your class forgot single-digit multiplications (even as they continued to use them daily) and started counting on their fingers (or drawing dots on paper)? Because that's what "calculate them manually" means, doing it by hand. There are 3 ways to do single digit multiplication: memorize, count, or restate the problem into problems that you have already memorized. Restating requires that you have a sufficient number of the problems memorized for it to work.
They are. I saw it in action myself. The 'teaching' methods you describe don't go into the full picture at all.
The teaching methods I describe are first grade and addition/multiplication using tokens is a perfect example of what those operations actually are and quite helpful in moving from physical manipulation to the symbolic manipulation of arithmetic. If you think that there is more to either of those operations than can be shown by an array of stones on a table then please, enlighten me. That grid of tokens can show commutation, distribution, association, primality, squareness, divisibility, etc. Moving that physical representation to a symbolic system is what arithmetic in lower elementary is about. I submit that knowing the answer to those 45 problems without having to spend time figuring them out every time is useful to the student and everyone who has ever complained about cashiers being unable to make change agrees with me.
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JimFive
Please stop using the word theory when you mean hypothesis.
So, when you do the problem 7*8 what is your thought process?
Any number of things, depending on which is easiest. I know 8*8, so I may just use that result and subtract 8. Sometimes I'll multiply by a power of 10 and then subtract or add as necessary. Sometimes I'll multiply by 10 and half the result and subtract/add as necessary. It just depends on what is fastest for me, and I can do all of it fairly quickly.
But I know mathematicians that have a deep understanding of the more complex math, and yet can barely do basic math problems.
You seem to be hung up on the idea of a literal table of math problems
Multiplication tables are what is being discussed, and yes, they usually are memorized in such a way. Yes, what I am speaking of is literally looking at a table, or something similar, and memorizing the results. I don't really care for being forced to memorize a bunch of results, and nor do I care for doing busywork containing problems that have absolutely no basis in reality.
If something is so important that you feel the need to post it on the internet... It probably isn't that important.
Because that's what "calculate them manually" means
In the context of multiplication tables, it means doing something like "8... 16... 24... 32... 40..." until the answer is found.
You think that MOST people in your class forgot single-digit multiplications
They did, and so did I.
and everyone who has ever complained about cashiers being unable to make change agrees with me.
Everyone? Well, I don't. Therefore, that statement is false. I think something else is lacking, and that's an understanding of the process itself.
If something is so important that you feel the need to post it on the internet... It probably isn't that important.