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US Army To Transport American Ebola Victim To Atlanta Hospital From Liberia
acidradio (659704) writes American air charter specialist Phoenix Air has been contracted by the U.S. Army to haul an American physician afflicted with Ebola from Liberia to the Emory University Hospital in Atlanta. This will be the first 'purposeful' transport of an Ebola victim to the U.S. The patient will be flown in a special Gulfstream III (formerly owned by the Danish Air Force) outfitted for very specialized medical transports such as this. I dunno. I know there are brilliant doctors and scientists in Atlanta who handle highly-communicable diseases, but is this such a brilliant idea?
theodp (442580) writes with related news In response to the Ebola outbreak, the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) has issued Interim Guidance about Ebola Virus Infection for Airline Flight Crews, Cleaning Personnel, and Cargo Personnel. "Ebola virus is transmitted by close contact with a person who has symptoms of Ebola," the CDC explains. "Close contact is defined as having cared for or lived with a person with Ebola or having a high likelihood of direct contact with blood or body fluids of an Ebola patient. Examples of close contact include kissing or embracing, sharing eating or drinking utensils, close conversation (3 feet), physical examination, and any other direct physical contact between people. Close contact does not include walking by a person or briefly sitting across a room from a person."
The Zombie Apocalypse is nearly upon us! Run ! RUNNNNNN!
Tubby or not tubby. Fat is the question
Let's bring all the diseases here. What could go wrong?
CNN had an article on this shortly before it popped up here. In their article, they said that an Ebola vaccine is well underway, with trials expected to begin in humans soon. It's apparently been proven effective in monkeys already. I was a little concerned before I read that, but if they've got a working vaccine, it's really not a big deal.
Wasn't a patient transported on a Gulfstream a sub-plot of a Tom Clancy novel? (Executive Orders, IIRC)
That would sure put us in a pickle.
Also, I read the Wikipedia page on Ebola this morning. It was a reassuring thing to see no Ebola cases in the U.S. I guess that's about to change.
Captcha: induce
"What could possible go wrong...?"
Laters Sol "Have you found the secrets of the universe? Asked Zebade "I'm sure I left them here somewhere"
The Centers for Disease Control is in Atlanta.
It's nice to see reason and logic flying out the window with most of these early posts, by the way. I think I'll invest in pitchfork futures, pronto!
#DeleteChrome
The disease is not particularly communicable. It tends to externalize a lot of bodily fluids, which is why in places with poor sanitary conditions, it spreads pretty quickly. Hospitals which handle patients like these tend not to be considered poor sanitary conditions..
He tried to kill me with a forklift!
If I recall properlly, the CDC keeps one of the last remaining samples of smallpox in Atlanta... so why not add Ebola? D:
Just for fun, the folks at the CDC should combine Ebola with the rabies virus. This zombie apocalypse isn't going to start itself!
I know there are brilliant doctors and scientists in Atlanta who handle highly-communicable diseases, but is this such a brilliant idea?
Ebola is hardly the only scary pathogen handled by the CDC. In fact I believe the CDC doesn't even consider this among the most dangerous of pathogens because of the relative difficulty in transmission which requires direct contact and it evolves relatively slowly apparently. They know very well how to handle this. The main concern is that they actually follow proper procedures. If they do that then there is little to worry about.
If you really want to study ebola to find a cure this is probably a very good idea provided they exercise appropriate caution. You want the experts at the CDC to be able to study this up close in a live patient. Of course one has to wonder why we had to wait for an american physician to get infected before deciding this was a good idea...
Thank goodness that happened in a public institution with public accountability.
Humans are mostly incompetent wherever they are (the profit motive does not make a person less incompetent, because it doesn't make them not human). The only reason government appears less competent is that it is usually, shockingly enough, much more public than a private corporation.
I propose sending containment & treatment equipment (trial vaccines, etc.), and medical personnel to Liberia. Staying put is probably easier on the patient that a transatlantic flight.
Transporting a person with such a deadly disease doesn't seem like the best plan...
I don't know anything about Atlanta's medical scene
So why are you trying to panic people over unrelated clumsy decisions made decades ago? The fact that some people stupidly left some pathogens lying around a long time ago has pretty much nothing to do with this case.
Let's bring all the diseases here. What could go wrong?
In all likelihood, nothing. The CDC handles copies of pretty much every known pathogen on the planet. It is the premier pathogen research institution on the planet. They've already seen ebola. The only thing novel about this is that they are bringing in a live patient with the disease to a top tier hospital so they can bring the best tools to bear on researching the disease and hopefully treating this guy.
Is the TSA agent going to give the Ebola patient a pat-down? After all, he might have a bomb in his underwear.
If telephones are outlawed, then only outlaws will have telephones.
Emory University's Campus touches the CDC, so much so you can look out of some of the windows in Emory and see into the offices at the CDC. They also work together professionally. Essentially this person is being transferred to the CDC.
Brilliance without wisdom, power without conscience. Ours is a world of nuclear giants and ethical infants.
I think I speak for most Americans when I say "What. The. Fuck.", followed by "What kind of crack are you on? Show me where in the manual it says we should bring these guys out of the hot zone. This is like an anti-quarantine. Our government has truly gone off the rails".
What happened to common sense? Fly the doctors to the patient, and drop a cargo container off with all the medical equipment.
Put some of the military surplus medivac equipment to use!
They're transporting a human because a human is the best way to get the live virus that far. It doesn't live very well outside of a body so transporting it via other means is a risk. They don't care if the human lives or dies, what they want is the virus. And lots of it. Alive.
Will they weaponize it or try to build a vaccine? Or just put it in an archive "for safe keeping"?
Read "The Hot Zone" - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Hot_Zone
Ebola vaccine
I'm not sure if this is sad or just expected; I guess both which in thereof itself is sad.
can't sleep slashdot will eat me
it doesn't end well.
A US citizen has a legal right to return to the US. There are no exceptions to this. This is a central tenet of both US and international law. Far better to return under careful medical quarantine than without those precautions.
I have both read and seen World War Z, and see no problem with this.
Ninjas don't carry tic tacs
according to TFS the patient in question was a doctor, so I'm presuming that he was over there treating patients.
I find your faith in these experts disturbing.
They may "know" how to handle this but recent history has demonstrated there's a good chance they won't use that knowledge.
http://www.thewire.com/national/2014/07/cdc-closes-labs-after-anthrax-bird-flu-and-small-pox-scares/374318/
Herp and derp, doctors in african countries in makeshift hospitals should have access to all sorts of sanitary facilities, just like in the CDC!
Look, I managed to counter your argument without seeking refuge in ad hominem, you pinheaded microphallic butt sniffer!
He tried to kill me with a forklift!
How much taxpayer money did we spend?
It little behooves the best of us to comment on the rest of us.
according to TFS the patient in question was a doctor, so I'm presuming that he was over there treating patients.
No shit. I guess you missed my comment somehow in which I said, "These idiots chose to go to Africa and treat highly infectious patients".
I know there are brilliant doctors and scientists in Atlanta who handle highly-communicable diseases, but is this such a brilliant idea?
When did Slashdot become home to stupid FUD* spewing dweebs with little or no common sense? The subtitle is "News for Nerds," which would suggest somebody who submits something might have half a clue about what they are talking about (leaving the plebs to pontificate on logical and scientific fallacy or imagine a Beowulf cluster of hot grits ).
I want my Slashdot with nerds filter enabled.
And yes it is an excellent idea, because it gives the CDC a living "test tube" of the actual active Ebola virus, not a sample of infected blood collected, and shipped on ice. Making it ideal for study, and possibly detection of any variant (i.e. mutation) that had not been notice before. Of course, this will likely cost the American doctor his/her life, but such is the risk of fighting an viral outbreak, and the real-world beyond web forums and politicians rambling.
* FUD: Fear, Uncertainty, and Doubt
If you could catch Ebola by touching the sweat somebody left behind as they passed through a room, it would have spread a lot farther than it has. I'm pretty sure they'll be testing everybody that comes into contact with this guy for the virus, and even if the tests miss it, the symptoms are not subtle, it being a hemorrhagic fever and all...
Not every virus acts like the flu or cold viruses. Ebola isn't particularly virulent, even if it is pretty nasty if you come down with it. Being able to perform tests on a live patient in a state-of-the-art facility (as opposed to a 3rd-world heap whose "hospitals" are about as sanitary as a mid-grade highway rest stop) is invaluable in researching treatments. Just like the movies, the CDC has on-site facilities specifically designed to treat people with scary diseases we don't want in the population at large; this seems like an excellent use for them.
The aircraft was specially outfitted for this type of scenario. You can't compare this to a scheduled flight on a commercial airliner.
This guy had limited equipment, and was treating patients in a facility that would make a highway rest stop look like a model for cleanliness. I expect he was taking every precaution he could, but that's not necessarily a lot.
The CDC has purpose-built facilities designed precisely for treating patients with deadly diseases a lot more communicable than this. This seems like a good use for them.
Yup, CDC knows how to handle this sort of shit.
Yes they do. Nobody's perfect but I trust the CDC to handle this. I've met people that work there. I'm married to a physician that deals with the CDC from time to time and she trusts them. They are very good at their job.
It's not like they lose track of pathogens or accidentally expose workers to smallpox, no sirree bob.
And that is relevant in what way here? Seriously. Explain to me how some leftover vials of a pathogen from decades ago has any relevance to this case beside pointing out the already obvious fact that there is a tiny but non-zero chance someone might do something stupid. That failure mode has precisely zero bearing on this issue. People are not perfect, news at 11.
Cut out the sissy NIMBY scaremongering. There is really, truly nothing to worry about here. It's not funny and it scares people who don't know any better.
The current theory is that Kent Brantly and Nancy Writebol contracted Ebola in a scrub room from another staff member who had been infected but wasn't showing enough outward signs of infection. hopefully the persons involved in transport will be more carefully screened before the flight.
NOTHING is 100% safe. all people can do is reduce risk as much as possible. that being said, the risk of this patient now spreading ebola to the U.S. is incredibly low.
also, 3.5 stripes is right. there's seriously no need to call anyone "stupid". wth.
Is there a research interest? Is supportive therapy that much better here and the CDC is the place with isolation expertise? What advantage is being sought?
Probably yes there is a research interest. Otherwise there would be no reason to choose Atlanta (home of the CDC) of all possible treatment locations. There are plenty of places for treatment but only one place where the experts at the CDC can look at things up close. It's a lot harder to bring the CDC to the patient than the other way around.
How much taxpayer money did we spend?
I do not know. Why don't you go look up the costs for the following and get back to us. It should not be too difficult since Barry promised to have a transparent government:
"Aeromedical Biological Containment System"
"specially built isolation unit"
Those two alone do not sound cheap. Of course, that does not account for the fuel, treatment of the patient and other miscellaneous items. Or perhaps you are so naive that you think the NIH, CDC or Obama is going to send this patient a bill for all of this?
You realise the different between some freeze dried sample in a jar, in a sealed drawer, in a sealed room, and a living human being infected with it and being transfered all over the place? Right?
Of course there are differences which is why comparing the two is both stupid and irrelevant. The failure modes have nothing to do with one another. It is well understood how ebola is transmitted and we have very well established containment protocols that we know work well. Ebola is not highly communicative, readily contained and the risks are quite low. The CDC doesn't even consider it among the most dangerous pathogens because it is relatively hard to transmit. They've already had the ebola virus in Atlanta for study. The only thing different here is simply that they have a live patient to handle which is something infections disease doctors deal with every single day.
I think with all the sci-fy shows like the strain, zombie this and zombie that, people are terrified that something like this will cause the apocalypse. So I am sure when this hits mainstream news people in Atlanta will flip out and the preachers will have thier field day. As long as those stupid religious end of the world fanatics don't do something stupid, it will be fine. All it takes it one fanatic trying to cause the end of the world and we will have ebola here.
Only 'flamers' flame!
Amazing how fast humanity flies out the window when fear is involved.
See my blog http://ilovecookes.blogspot.com/ for light hearted technical information.
There's a reason animals (and humans) are paranoid about shit we don't understand. From a survival standpoint, it's an advantageous attitude to have. And right now, I'm pretty fucking paranoid about being anywhere near people with Ebola!
Then you need to educate yourself because ebola is NOT even in the top 20 pathogens you should be worried about. Infectious disease doctors worry about diseases like Vancomycin-intermediate Staphylococcus aureus which is an example of a much more serious threat. You're worrying about a meteor strike when while living in Tornado Alley. Sure there is a tiny risk but it isn't what you should be concerned about. Ebola is scary but there are MUCH scarier and FAR more likely pathogens out there.
Ebola is hard to transmit, easy to contain, evolves slowly and is very unlikely to come anywhere near you in the near future.
Better to study Ebola in a large, properly-equipped research facility where we know exactly who has it (this one guy), and can take appropriate precautions. The precautions needed to keep the infection from spreading in a hospital setting are not particularly elaborate; better than what's available in BFE General Hospital, but nothing fancier than the isolation unit present in just about every major academic medical center in the US.
That's about 1000x better than somebody bringing it over here and spreading it to some other people before somebody recognizes it for what it is, and that being the first chance to run real research on a live patient. This way, we bring over one guy, and the best infectious disease doctors in the world can all be treating him at once in a facility designed for exactly this purpose, with virtually zero chance of this not-particularly-communicable disease going anywhere.
Or, we could have a surprise panic when this shows up in a family somewhere in flyover country, or somebody spreads it to patients in the waiting room of the Metropolis General Hospital ER... yeah, that's LOTS better.
Or not.
When did Slashdot become home to stupid FUD* spewing dweebs with little or no common sense?
* FUD: Fear, Uncertainty, and Doubt
Since hipocrytical commenters started coming here.
As we like to call it Season 5 of the walking Dead
I've seen nothing but panic on this Ebola issue.
It's not the end of the world. You have little to worry about, the media is making a stick out of it to get more clicks and higher ratings, that's all.
With diseases like this, the death rate and the incubation time are both critical to how dangerous the disease is. Ebola is deadly, but the incubation rate is very short, and it has little time to spread. Bascially it kills the host long before they can infect too many people. It's prevalent in African due to poor sanitation and its natural host which is indigenous fruit bats. It's killed just a few thousand people throughout human history. If you want an example of a truly terrifying disease, look at HIV. The incubation time is decades, the death rate is high. It has scores of years to spread and by the time you know you have it, it's often too late. HIV has killed nearly 40 million people in the 25yrs or so we've known about it. But it likely existed as far back as the 1920s and people just didn't know what it was.
The first time you'll hear about the next "World killer" disease it will already be far too late. You'll likely already have gotten infected.
The various strains of the flu which become pandemics don't start off as particularly communicable either.
This isn't influenza nor does it behave like it.
They become a pandemic when they mutate into a form which can be transmitted via the air. Not saying this will happen with Ebola. Just saying that just because it's not particularly communicable now doesn't mean it'll stay that way.
Depending on the physiology of the virus it might very well mean that it will stay that way. Very very very few viruses that can infect humans get airborne. It's just ridiculously rare because the pathogen has to evolve in just the right way. Ebola apparently evolves rather slowly and while I'm no expert on viruses, my understanding from some people who are (I'm married to a doctor) is that most viruses will never ever become airborne because it is such a hostile environment.
So is there a chance? Probably. But you really shouldn't spend your time worrying about it.
Something like Ebola shouldn't be much of an issue, its not airborne and can only be transferred via contact with infected tissues/fluids. I'd worry more about areas where it has infected hundreds of individuals and is at risk of mutating into an airborne variety. Researching methods of stamping it out while it is at this stage is far preferable to to letting it smolder over there until it does mutate.
Every single slashdotter is an expert in infectious diseases. Guess I should edumicate myself with some more Tom Clancy novels to get up to speed.
There is no memory shortage. yes I have heard of XFCE. Go away.
SCIENTIST 1
I'm afraid we'll be deviating a bit from standard analysis procedures today, Gordon.
SCIENTIST 2
Yes, but with good reason. This is a rare opportunity for us. This is the purest sample we've seen yet.
SCIENTIST 1
And potentially the most unstable!
SCIENTIST 2
Oh, if you follow standard insertion procedures, everything will be fine.
SCIENTIST 1
I don't know how you can say that. Although I will admit that the possibility of a resonance cascade scenario is extremely unlikely, I remain uncomfortable with the---
SCIENTIST 2
Gordon doesn't need to hear this. He's a highly trained professional. We have assured the Administrator that nothing will go wrong.
SCIENTIST 1
Ah yes, you're right. Gordon, we have complete confidence in you.
SCIENTIST 2
Well, go ahead. Let's let him in now.
Actually, they are deliberately not identifying the patent. Might be a doctor. Might be a nurse. But in any case it was a missionary, someone who went to Africa to tell the people there that his or her own religious beliefs were better than those of the Africans.
I saw an interesting thing on the CBS evening news last night. One of the missionary spokespeople was telling the CBS talking head how distrustful the local people were if the doctor was wearing lots of protective clothing while treating patients. The supposed journalist just let this be stated and never questioned if the spokesperson was trying to say that they sometimes deliberately do without the protective gear to help gain the African people's trust. Apparently these missionaries believe that they should tell these people that the Christian god is better than whatever they believe in, but not bother to try to tell them that civilized science and medicine is better than jungle science.
I'm an American. I love this country and the freedoms that we used to have.
We've had about 30 years to decide draw up plans for dealing with Ebola. There is the real amount of time available for transparency, not the brief time you claim. That we chose to make no plans today does not mean we automatically agree to bring Ebola infected patients into our population centers, even if someone's life is on the line.
“Common sense is not so common.” — Voltaire
I've known for a long time that if you want something screwed up really badly, you call in the US Army Corps of Engineers. This is not them, the "best and brightest" of the Army, but the general army. So multiply the dumb by 10X.
But what have the "best and brightest" done for us? A few examples:
* Diverted the Mississippi river by dynamiting, such that now, land subsidence on the former delta causes a retreat of coastline by about 1/4 mile per year.
* Built a seawall to protect Newport Beach, CA. It's a straight line. Do you know basic physics? Yes, deep-sea waves do indeed recombine constructively, creating monster beach-breaks (The Wedge).
* Uh, Katrina? Insisted on NO trees on Gulf-coast flood levees. Duh. Trees are what hold hillsides together.
* Katrina. Ignoring their own rules, they used landfill, construction debris, and wadded newspaper when building said levees.
* The Missouri and Mississippi Rivers. These naturally have giant floodplains, hence our good farmland. COE has leveed-off almost anywhere the rivers could flood, resulting in a huge flood-risk multiplier for anyone downriver, any time it rains in the US mid-west (see above).
OK, now back up. The above were done by the Army's "brightest." The Ebola guy is being brought to the US by just the "regular" Army.
This cannot end well.
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A highly trained medical professional risks his life to care for suffering people, and you call him an idiot? Did you know they had people that actually survived Ebola because of his care? He and all the volunteers that went there are heros. Seriously, check your pulse.
http://foxtrotalpha.jalopnik.com/this-amazing-jet-will-transport-ebola-victims-from-afri-1614420685/+barrett
A red state like Georgia doesn't feel oppressed by having all that big government socialized medicine going on in their state?
I think "african hospitals are not quite the hermetically sealed, pressurized clean-rooms like the CDC facilities" is a pretty glaring factor you're leaving out. And that factor is precisely why its safe to wrap these guys in plastic by people in plastic suits to take back to the plastic catacombs in Atlanta.
Let's bring all the diseases here. What could go wrong?
In all likelihood, nothing. The CDC handles copies of pretty much every known pathogen on the planet. It is the premier pathogen research institution on the planet. They've already seen ebola. The only thing novel about this is that they are bringing in a live patient with the disease to a top tier hospital so they can bring the best tools to bear on researching the disease and hopefully treating this guy.
there are some old monkey corpses in Reston Va that might disagree with your assessment :)
just sayin'
the second you call the POTUS "Barry" you revealed a lot of very unpleasant things about yourself.
The only real costs are the jet fuel and the specially built isolation until...which I have to imagine is really a specially modified isolation unit unless they built a new wing to the hospital in record time for this paitent (they didn't). The researchers/doctors are all ready government employees, they'd be getting paid regardless of this patient. Total cost, probably about 1/1000th of the pork in a normal bill signed into law.
or research ... risking an Ebola outbreak in a major US city
The entire point of the research is to learn enough to be able to stop an outbreak in a major US city if one were to start.
Why do you seem to be advocating not doing such research?
It sure sounds familiar. I think it often starts with the military/epidemiologists doing something that SHOULD work, but somehow goes wrong...
Throughout history, poverty is the normal condition of man. Advances which permit this norm to be exceeded — here and there, now and then — are the work of an extremely small minority, frequently despised, often condemned, and almost always opposed by all right-thinking people. Whenever this tiny minority is kept from creating, or (as sometimes happens) is driven out of a society, the people then slip back into abject poverty.
This is known as “bad luck.” - Heinlein
Maybe its just them faking the ebola infection in order to smuggle something or someone into the country. Nobody is going to check the plane, pilot, crew, or anything else.
Way to shit all over their hand wringing circle jerk, you insensitive clod!
Celebrity worship is a poor substitute for Deity worship and costs more to boot.
A very blue town like Atlanta doesn't, anyway.
Ok, I just wanted to make sure my New York tax money wasn't being used to oppress some poor hill billy by way of improved medical services.
And how easy it is to make the ignorant fearful.
And therefore, how easy it is to make the ignorant violent.
You're looking for quotes? See my journal.
or research ... risking an Ebola outbreak in a major US city
The entire point of the research is to learn enough to be able to stop an outbreak in a major US city if one were to start.
Why do you seem to be advocating not doing such research?
I'm all for it, just do it in Africa. Send a team from the CDC with everything they need and enough LN2 to freeze every specimen they could possibly want, then fly that back to the CDC and do the research in a BSL4. If you want to do in vivo research, then use an animal model. Unlike many other pathogens, there are animal models for Ebola infection that are comparatively good. Realistically, bringing two patients who are already infected with Ebola to the US probably isn't going to advance knowledge in that area in such a quantum way as to outweigh the potential risks.
your man?
The USA is only 4X older than me...perspective
2 contagious people being looked after by well trained and equipped people...
Now where is the panic
30000 die on our roads every year and yet everybody thinks its a good idea to be on the road.
Don't know how many hundreds or thousand die by accidental bullets...like this kid who died a couple of days back just being in bed and a bullet came in through the wall from the street....highly communicable death...and yet we live in neighborhood loaded with loaded guns and no panic yet !
What can go wrong ...okay all the people treating these guys in the contained ward may die...much less than 30000 say !!!
Worry about the folks who flew here from Africa who didn't know they were infected, and are even now having hamburgers at the airport.
Please do not read this sig. Thank you.
who can blame me for saying this is batshit insane? and isn't the level-4 biohazard lab at the CDC still closed because they can't read the freakin' instructions?
if this is supposed to be a new economy, how come they still want my old fashioned money?
Of course, it would be quite ironic if a mishandled case of a deadly disease would accidentally wipe out the USA's foremost expertise center on contagious diseases. And embarrassing. And very bad.
It's not like there is some magical cure awaiting them upon arrival at Emory, there is no cure for Ebola. About the best they can hope for is palliative care, so why not just send a team to West Africa to do the same.
Actually there ARE some experimental treatments and antivirals, both general and specific to Ebola, being worked on. At Emory, in particular. (It's their business.)
In fact, according to previous reports, THIS GUY was working on them. And he had ONE dose of one of them WITH him.
Unfortunately, when he and a colleague both started showing symptoms, THIS GUY gave the ONE DOSE to the OTHER GUY.
Has he had other treatments already that might have made him more resistant than J. Random Villager? Haven't heard yet, but it sure wouldn't surprise me.
Bring this partiular guy back to the US, to the CDC facilities, shove him in a best-of-its-class isolab, and give him the best supportive care available (including more experimental stuff)? This might make sense, big time, despite the risks in transit.
Bantam Dominique roosters crow a four-note song. Once you've heard it as "Happy BIRTHday" you can't NOT hear it that way
I wonder if he's in any condition to ask if he wants to be transported to the US. If I volunteered to go try to cure people with Ebola, I think the last thing I'd want to do is bring a body-weight ebola culture back to a major US city.
And how easy it is to make the ignorant fearful.
And therefore, how easy it is to make the ignorant violent.
And how easy it is to simply label anyone who disagrees with you as ignorant so that they and their point of view can be marginalized and summarily dismissed without further consideration.
Just ignore the history of government screw-ups regarding dangerous things like radioactive materials, nerve agents, or even nuclear warheads that were all in the hands of "experts".
Geez! Just the thought of bringing an infected and still-living Ebola victim to a large US city is enough to make blood shoot out of your eyes!...Oh, wait...
Strat
Progressivism (aka US 'Liberalism'): Ideas so good they need a police/surveillance-state to enforce.
The ebola virus, so far, are not airborne, but it does spread via liquid flow
The ebola virus that CDC and all other research labs study are stored inside sealed containers which are stored inside sealed rooms which are inside sealed buildings, and every single time they are done with their research ***EVERYTHING*** goes into the incinerator, ***EVERY SINGLE THING***, in order to make sure that no virus, not even one , will get the chance to escape
But bringing in the patients striken with ebola will mean importing a human being with all the body fluids that are infected with that virus --- and the bodily fluid, from tears to saliva to sweat to blood to excrement are full of the virus
Unless they seal the patient inside a sealed container and then move that seal container inside the military transport plane, and then moved it out when the plane reached the destination, that military transport plane itself will, one way or another, be left with traces of bodily fluid from the ebola patients
Now, I am not scare mongering, but in the medical world there is a thing called "vector" --- which means, the way the disease spread --- and those traces of bodily fluids inside the big military transport plane may become a vector for spreading that disease
Furthermore, when the patient arrives inside the States, that patient will gonna discharge his/her bodily fluid (pee, sweat, saliva, blood, shit) and how are all those bodily fluid gonna be taken care of ?
Unless that hospital has a specialized toilet where all the thing flushed from that toilet goes through an incinerator / or some kind of total disinfection system before that fluid was discharged out into the sewage system --- which will flow down, eventually, into rivers --- how can anyone be sure that none of the ebola virus is going to escape from the hospital ?
It is not about NIMBY --- it is just common sense
Then start by executing every American who knowingly and willfully hires an illegal to work for them.
It'll solve a decent percentage of the 1 percent problem and it'll certainly solve a lot of the million dollar plus income people.
How do I know this? Multiple 'small business owners' who are busy either hiring illegals or 'off the books' Americans to work in their establishments.
If you really believe in proper working conditions for Americans, it's time to do with vigilantism what hasn't been does with legal oversight: Take care of the problem at the source: People who will hire illegals.
for mistaking 'bringing back Ebola' with 'bringing back Ebonics'. I just wish he hadn't mixed up those CDC acronyms...
No animal model is a substitute for real human treatment data. Speak to any immunologist/virologist and they will tell you that you can never be sure if pre-clinical treatments, developed in animal models, will actually be effective in humans.
If you think rationally about the potential risks, then you will realize that there is really is no chance of an outbreak in the US and the only people that have any risk are those that are going to directly come in close contact with the patient.
After it gets to Atlanta, it'll be 4 thousand miles closer than it was before. That's pretty damn near ...
As mentioned elsewhere, Ebola isn't an 'airborne' pathogen and basically can only spread via direct contact (either heavy particulates, sneezing, breathing, spittle, etc), direct bodily fluid contact (OMG the same as HIV!!!), or direct contact with contaminated materials (which most likely is fluid/cellular contamination).
As such it's far less likely they would need to be 'disposed of' and far more likely they would only require quarantine efforts similiar to other moderately transmissable pathogens. They might all die, but the odds of them starting an epidemic, given suitable prepared and quarantined medical staff is unlikely to result in transmission to the general public.
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Haven't read the Hot Zone have you? Ebola has already mutated once into an airborn pathogen, the Ebola Reston variety. And yes, that Reston as in Reston, Virginia, where a monky house in some industrial park was wiped out. The arrogent CDC cowboys in charge with their "experience" "knew" that Ebola was not airborn, so did not quarantine everyone exposed -- luckily, people were not affected like monkies!
No, your new york tax money is being well spent, keeping the problem out of your back yard. That's pretty much exactly what people want when they give tax money to the government - lots of services, without the dreadful inconvenience of the provision of those services having any impact on their lives.
The only novel thing is that they're bringing a highly contagious patient on an airplane half way around the world. If you think that's no more risky than bringing an inert, freeze dried sample in a tightly sealed container, well, trust me, it is.
Of course, I'm sure nothing could possibly go wrong. Unless the plane crashes. Or experiences mechanical problems and has to make an unplanned landing. Or any of lots of other things that could go wrong, does.
"I'm too busy to research this and form an educated opinion, but I do have time to tell everyone my uninformed opinion."
Only about 10% of drugs that enter clinical trials end up getting approved. "effective in monkeys" != "effective in humans".
"I'm too busy to research this and form an educated opinion, but I do have time to tell everyone my uninformed opinion."
Thank you $random_slashdot_user for your deeply insightful and carefully worked out analysis of a complicated issue.
I am sure that the folks at the CDC would like to subscribe to your newsletter.
Faster! Faster! Faster would be better!
you go to where the volcano is if you want to study it as safely as possible.
Why the fark would you even attempt to bring that over to this continent??? WHY?!?!?!
Want to treat ebola victims? Pack up your shit and take it to where they are. Don't bring them here.
Am I the only one to think that someone in the US wants to weaponize Ebola?
I know no one will admit that but it seems that certain TLAs are more than willing to stretch the bounds of legality and keep it secret.
It's a public policy issue, not a people in white coats issue. So, the public gets to comment, and the burden is on the CDC and the rest of the government to prove that what they are doing is necessary by public standards. The only people who trust the white coats to make consistently smart decisions in the public interest are people who have an ideological investment in believing that they make great decisions far above what we mere mortals can, and those who are profoundly ignorant and follow the government's lead regularly. For everyone else, for everyone with a brain and no ideological investment, questioning is practically an ethical mandate.
That's how we got Ebola Reston.
Happiness in intelligent people is the rarest thing I know.
Ernest Hemingway
I made a chart of the public data available by the WHO. Both the cases and the deaths are matching a lot with the exponential curves onto them. I've put it online here: https://plus.google.com/+Jaspe...
This has every shade of bad written all over it, if you ask me.
File under 'M' for 'Manic ranting'
The Researcher has the Lagos card so the Dispatcher moved them to the research center in Atlanta. Obviously the Scientist will be there next turn for the hand off. Do not play One Quiet Night now, we want to save that for when we need it.
I've been inside NORAD, and it was not as high-tech as portrayed in War Games (1983).
That that is is that that that that is not is not.
Your wrong on this. If Ebola has gone airborne (it kills more than 2/3rd of infected and it's got a 21 day incubation) we could be in for the worst pandemic the world has seen since the black death in Europe. The typical response to that statement is an eyeroll and a "they've said that before". Yes they did, and then they did what they always do, massive massive research to understand the virus so they could develop a vaccine before it got to the kill everyone stage. The end goal of bringing these people home is a vaccine for the rest of us before Ebola comes here for real (and it will come here if it goes airborne). The secondary goal is to save their life. But if they die they have direct access to the live virus and a corpse killed by it. The research value is immeasurable for those two things.
Please understand without a threat of this coming to the west there is almost no chance whatsoever that a vaccine will be developed. West Nile Virus has been around for hundreds or thousands of years. It's arrival in the US triggered real research that is probably going to result in a vaccine next year. The same is true of Ebola, bringing an infected American home is going to result in fast tracking the research on this virus.
A pandemic like this is incredibly scary. In every major city in the US we have enough medical beds to support about 1/4 of 1% of the population being sick enough to require hospitalization. If 20% of the population needed medical attention about 19.75% probably wouldn't get any. There is a movie that I think accurately displays this. It's called Contagion, they show the CDC and FEMA building basically large warehouse facilities to hold the sick and dieing (with very little care) and they even show the massive central disposal systems that would need to be in place to handle that number of bodies. The other nice thing is they show the breakdown in society including uncontrolled rioting and all the bad stuff humans will do to survive.
Well gee, why don't they save some money and fly them on Malaysia airlines?
Low != 0
If you were Kent Brantly or a member of his family you would probably think it's a great idea. A great idea to make sure he receives comfort, the best possible care and to be near family and loved ones.
If I recall properlly, the CDC keeps one of the last remaining samples of smallpox in Atlanta... so why not add Ebola? D:
The CDC and Fort Dietrick has had the ebola virus in its lab for many years.
No you didn't, moron. "Herp and derp" is ad hominem.
Check out this video: http://www.bu.edu/today/2013/v... It's not the CDC, but for a similar lab at Boston University.
It's EXACTLY like the movies, including the positive-pressure plastic suits.
http://goo.gl/A65mEA
Yea, 'controlling' nature with a bit of plastic and some rules sounds like a lot of optimism.
I am amazed how people fail to recognise that the same safeguards put in place for transporting these people, are, supposedly, the same ones they should have been following in the first place. That being said, it's extremely unlikely a major epidemic is going to happen from this individual being transported. However, that figure drops to zero if they aren't transported at all--and they could be receiving medical attention days sooner without the excess travel.
And just to beg the question--why is this person receiving different treatment than those they were treating in Africa? I mean, it must be a serious improvement in services to fly someone out thousands of miles--why isn't this care being provided there in the first place?
"A pandemic like this is incredibly scary. In every major city in the US we have enough medical beds to support about 1/4 of 1% of the population being sick enough to require hospitalization. If 20% of the population needed medical attention about 19.75% probably wouldn't get any."
So true. And as I suggest in the linked essay an abundance perspective resulting in a basic income and health care for all and investing in true civil defense could help prepare for pandemics:
"Basic income from a millionaire's perspective?"
http://www.pdfernhout.net/basi...
"Right now, a profit driven health care system has sized emergency rooms for average needs, and those emergency rooms are often full. With a basic income and more money going on a systematic basis to the health care system, the health care system emergency rooms will no longer be overrun with people there for reasons they could see a doctor for. So, emergency care would be better for millionaires. Millionaires with heart attacks won't be as likely to end up being diverted to far away hospitals because the local hospital emergency room is full. Likewise, emergency rooms might, with more money going to medicine, become sized for national emergencies, not personal emergencies, so they might become vast empty places, with physicians and other health care staff keeping their skills sharp always running simulations, learning more medical information, and/or doing basic medical research, with these people always ready for a pandemic or natural disaster or industrial accident which they had the resources in reserve to deal with. So, millionaires who got sick or injured in a disaster could be sure there was the facilities and expertise nearby to help them, even if most of the rest of the population needed help too at the same time too. In that way, some of this basic income could be funded by money that might otherwise go to the Defense department, because what is better civil defense then investing in a health care system able to to handle national disasters? So, any millionaires who are doctors (many are) would benefit by this plan, because their lives as doctors will become happier and less stressful, both with less paperwork and with more resources."
Instead of empowering more people to be involved in health care, the US medical monopolies have restricted the production of US physicians to keep MD salaries up, which is tremendously short-sighted as well as indirectly cruel. Nonetheless, the internet has been broadening access to DIY subsistence health knowledge (like eating more vegetables and fruits, and getting more vitamin D and adequate iodine, and leading a healthy lifestyle with exercise, good sleep, community, etc.), but not without some downsides as shown by this Dilbert comic...
http://www.dilbert.com/strips/...
For part of the history of how US medicine got this way starting 100 years ago (which included abandoning an emphasis on prevention via lifestyle and nutrition to focus on profitable hands-on "scientific" cures for ailments), see:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/F...
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pm...
Poverty often forces people to take on risks they might otherwise avoid (like in the USA driving old rusty cars that will collapse in an accident). To the extent this current Ebola outbreak is based on poached bushmeat and ignorance, any Ebola pandemic is also in a sense a verdict on failed US-pushed global economic/defense policies promoting wealth concentration and which ignored externalities and systemic risks (like the risk of plague as a systemic risk to the marketplace). So, shortsighted global policies have not reduced such risks by helping lift Africans out of material poverty sooner rather than later and instead have pushed many impoverished p
A 21st century issue: the irony of technologies of abundance in the hands of those still thinking in terms of scarcity.
For better care? I don't think so.
To develop a vaccine? Maybe.
To create a new weapon? Seems more likely.
What could go wrong here....
I would love to see retrofit of cast off steel shipping containers
delivered to foreign soil as emergency hot zone mini hospitals.
In some areas of the US we have piles of long and short shipping
containers. Pant white, seal the inside with a tough liner like folk use for
pick up truck beds. Add a solar powered air vent or redundant two
with LED lighting. Airlift with helicopters or truck in on skid trucks.
Room inside for gowns, antibiotics, bleach and basic sanitation kit too.
These and technology like this will be needed in abundance should
Ebola make it to our shores and run amok.
In part we need to find a way do deliver to hot zones world wide
the ability to care for those that need care. This is my current
favorite way to address this need. They can be tied to the earth
with footers and bolted down well enough to endure a hurricane.
Insulation kits (internal or external spray foam) can make them
cold or hot weather tolerant. Screens and doors, mosquito proof
with a simple cutting torch and install kit all inside the box.
Truth is stranger than fiction, but it is because Fiction is obliged to stick to possibilities; Truth isn't. Mark Twain.
But I do have to say this IS even worse than having them read their poetry to you.
So these people go over to these God forsaken countries, contract ebola, and then have to be expatriated home at great expense. Fine, but um, do they get a bill or something afterward? Not that they'd be able to pay the hundreds of thousands, but still. Why not wander into Syria for fun while you're at and then have to have the marines come rescue you. geesh.
Having access to a live patient that's not in sub-Saharan Africa is kind of handy.
And the proof before us.
1. You should not fear Ebola getting to the US by a careful transport of two patients to a secure facility. You should fear the the US tourist that bumps into someone that has just started to show symptoms in London right before they come home to the Los Angles.
Frankly all the rest of your post is nothing but mindless shrieking terror.
See my blog http://ilovecookes.blogspot.com/ for light hearted technical information.
The patients staying in Liberia poses zero risk of them being the source of a US outbreak, bringing them into the US poses a risk greater than zero. Accidents happen, "acts of God" like unexpected/unusual weather conditions, human error, etc etc.
Sorry, but I hope their planes crash and burn on takeoff from Liberia.
I wonder how hard it would be to outfit a C-5 (or C-130s) with a M*A*S*H type setup??
They already have done that. It's a big part of the reason why deaths from battlefield wounds have dropped quite a lot in the last 60 years. Soldiers wounded on a battlefield in Iraq might find themselves on a medical evacuation plane to Germany within 24 hours. If fact much of the practice of emergency medicine comes straight from lessons learned from battlefield medicine including medical transport.
They also have medical isolation planes for dealing with bioterrorism, pathogen warfare, chemical warfare and disease outbreaks.
Wow you just suck as a human being. I mean wow just one of the worst examples of what passes for human I think I have ever had to deal with.
Great example why ACs are such a bad idea. You would never have the guts to post that with your name. You live up to the term Anonymous Coward in all ways with that post.
See my blog http://ilovecookes.blogspot.com/ for light hearted technical information.
After it gets to Atlanta, it'll be 4 thousand miles closer than it was before.
Ebola was already at the CDC in Atlanta decades ago. Do you seriously think they hadn't already examined this virus in Atlanta? The CDC examines pretty much every known pathogen. The budget of the CDC is larger than the GDP of any of the countries involved in the recent outbreak. You want the CDC looking at this with whatever resources they can muster so that it doesn't become a problem.
The chance of any of the patients being transported to Atlanta resulting in an outbreak of ebola in North America is so small that it borders on science fiction. People worrying about that have watched too many zombie apocalypse movies.