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U.S. Senator: All Cops Should Wear Cameras

Several readers sent word that U.S. Senator Claire McCaskill (D-MO) has begun speaking in favor of mandatory cameras for police across the country. "Everywhere I go people now have cameras. And police officers are now at a disadvantage, because someone can tape the last part of an encounter and not tape the first part of the encounter. And it gives the impression that the police officer has overreacted when they haven't." This follows the recent controversy ove the shooting death of Michael Brown in a police incident, as well as a White House petition on the subject that rocketed to 100,000 signatures.

McCaskill continued, "I would like to see us say, 'If you want federal funding in your community, you've got to have body cams on your officers. And I think that would go a long way towards solving some of these problems, and it would be a great legacy over this tragedy that's occurred in Ferguson, regardless of what the facts say at the end as to whether or not anyone is criminally culpable."

460 of 643 comments (clear)

  1. I like... by Ronin+Developer · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Of course, somebody will think this a bad idea...

    1. Re:I like... by Adriax · · Score: 1

      Like many officers?
      Police cruisers already have cameras, and we're already seen cases where the camera is disabled by the officer because they don't think bureaucrats with no experience have the right to judge them. And that's not getting into the officers who disable them or "lose" the footage after the fact to cover up their own crimes.

      I'm all for these body cams, but don't expect it to be received with open arms or to change behavior overnight.
      I suspect if this passes there is going to be a spike in google searches for "how to secretly disable camera and make it looks like equipment failure".

      --
      I don't suffer from insanity, I enjoy every minute of it!
    2. Re:I like... by Entropius · · Score: 4, Insightful

      A body camera is a tiny, tiny fraction of the salary of a cop, and will probably make up its cost very quickly in the bullshit that it cuts out.

    3. Re:I like... by cyberchondriac · · Score: 4, Insightful

      You're wrong, AC, ("of course"). Apparently you don't actually know many republicans. Of the several I know, many are LEOs and would fully support this for exactly for the reasons stated in the article. If they lump their purchase under "anti-terrorism", then funding is no problem, as that still seems to be a bottomless wallet, for both wings.

      --

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    4. Re:I like... by MondoGordo · · Score: 4, Insightful

      it's only a bad idea if the police have control over the recordings ... then you would see incriminating footage getting lost or deleted (and blamed on "equipment failure" ) & only exculpatory (for the police) footage being preserved. I'm all for it (despite the expansion of the panopticon) if the cameras are always on (including an officer recall if the feed fails), the feed is streamed to a remote location, the record is administered by a public advocacy agency and available for public review, and all interactions of a routine nature are deleted after a fixed period of time.

    5. Re:I like... by Nidi62 · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Think about it: Where is the money going to come for all these cameras?

      Federal/state/local governments aren't exactly flush with cash right now so either taxes will need to be increased to purchase said cameras or something will have to be cut (and that opens up a whole other can of worms.)

      Or the departments could just take the funding they put aside for a couple surplus MRAPs and buy these cameras instead. These cameras have the added effect of actually improving officer/civilian safety (less chance of violence on both sides if they know a camera is recording) with the only downside being the cops don't have bad-ass trucks they can ride around in while pretending they're Marines riding through downtown Fallujah.

      --
      The only thing necessary for evil to triumph is for it to be pitted against a slightly greater evil
    6. Re:I like... by smooth+wombat · · Score: 4, Insightful

      If you get rid of the TSA, there would be tons of money available for such an endeavor.

      --
      We will bankrupt ourselves in the vain search for absolute security. -- Dwight D. Eisenhower
    7. Re:I like... by spamking · · Score: 1

      Why in the world would you feel any republican would think this is a bad idea?

    8. Re:I like... by Samantha+Wright · · Score: 2

      Everyone likes accountability when they have control over it. The cops would have control over the tapes, right? So they get to choose which parts to show and which parts to "inconveniently lose." Every other time this topic has come up on Slashdot, there's been quite a cynical kerfuffle about precisely this.

      --
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    9. Re:I like... by ShanghaiBill · · Score: 4, Informative

      Where is the money going to come for all these cameras?

      The cost of the cameras is insignificant compared to the cost of the lawsuits, and riots, that occur in their absence. They also cut down on paperwork, because the video itself is a record of the interaction, so the cop can spend less time writing reports and more time policing. They also save lots of money by reducing arrests, since cameras have a calming influence on both cops and the perps. People behave better when they know they are being filmed.

      Federal/state/local governments aren't exactly flush with cash right now ...

      Yet they can afford armored vehicles and military weapons.

    10. Re:I like... by ShanghaiBill · · Score: 1

      Police cruisers already have cameras

      The police cars in Ferguson, Missouri, where Michael Brown was killed, have no cameras. No dashcam. No interior cam. No cam on the officer. Nothing.

    11. Re:I like... by Penguinisto · · Score: 2

      Everyone likes accountability when they have control over it. The cops would have control over the tapes, right? So they get to choose which parts to show and which parts to "inconveniently lose."

      One small problem with that theory... if they "inconveniently lose" a critical bit of video evidence at trial, the defense would savage them for it, and the jury is likely to let that fact color their decision in a way that is not advantageous to the prosecution.

      All said, since most prosecutions end up plea-bargains this may be moot, but for those that go to trial...?

      --
      Quo usque tandem abutere, Nimbus, patientia nostra?
    12. Re:I like... by whoever57 · · Score: 1

      it's only a bad idea if the police have control over the recordings ... then you would see incriminating footage getting lost or deleted (and blamed on "equipment failure" )

      Even if the police have control, after some time, ordinary people would see a pattern: "no recording == suspicious behaviour by the police". Then, turning off the camera isn't going to provide much protection to a police officer.

      --
      The real "Libtards" are the Libertarians!
    13. Re:I like... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

      since when has the amount of money the federal govt spends had any relation to the amount of taxes collected?

    14. Re:I like... by Bing+Tsher+E · · Score: 1

      Or, we could eliminate the DOE, FDA, EPA, any number of other TLA's. But that's not going to happen, is it?

    15. Re:I like... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Insightful

      The camera itself might be a tiny, tiny fraction of the salary of a cop, but it would still require a massive database and supporting infrastructure to run/maintain the entire implementation. Nor would it change the fact that people would still bring (founded and unfounded) lawsuits against the police.

      What if the police got to the scene of a crime after the victim (a black man) managed to turn the tables on the attacker (a white woman) and the only thing the camera saw was the victim (a black man) attacking the attacker (a white woman) in a panicked frenzy? Camera and the police says the victim (a black man) is the attacker, therefore the victim (a black man) gets arrested. Investigation? Why conduct one when the police (partly) caught a black man beating a white woman on camera?

      And yes, I am picking an extreme example, but thats exactly how we got here in the first place. White cop shoots black kid. White cop goes free, black kid is (supposedly) framed as a thief. Oh, but we'll have to wait MONTHS for the FEDERAL investigation to be completed because the LOCAL POLICE fucked up so badly there was RIOTING in the streets for over a week. But body cameras will solve all that, right?

    16. Re:I like... by un1nsp1red · · Score: 1

      Whether they get a "good deal" on the military equipment isn't the point. Does any of that unneeded equipment cost more than a camera? Then get the camera instead.

    17. Re:I like... by Wycliffe · · Score: 2

      All said, since most prosecutions end up plea-bargains this may be moot, but for those that go to trial...?

      You make it sound like plea bargains and trials are independent events.
      Plea bargains are based on what each party believes is the most likely outcome of a trial.
      An attorney could easily argue for a different plea if the tape was damaged or missing because
      both sides know that this will change the odds in a jury trial. A police officer that "lost" his
      video would be much more likely to want to strike a plea bargain as it puts him at a great
      disadvantage if it comes down to a trial. And as the original article states, many times the
      officercam might not be the only video of the crime.

    18. Re:I like... by killkillkill · · Score: 1

      I wouldn't be happy if the police started keeping a database of the licence plates of every car they encounter and every face of every law abiding citizen they pass. Tell me this video won't eventually end up being cataloged by the NAS. Though, maybe I only care because I have something to hide.

    19. Re:I like... by BronsCon · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Well, they'll solve the rioting, I suppose. In fact, they'll solve a slew of other issues, as well. Your point is valid, nonetheless, but it is also an extreme (as you pointed out) edge scenario and any lawyer who actually passed the BAR (that'd be all of them) would be able to have a case based entirely on body cam evidence thrown out in a heartbeat; investigations would still happen.

      --
      APK quotes people (including myself) without context and should not be trusted. Just thought you should know.
    20. Re:I like... by thaylin · · Score: 1

      Who is to say the tape was not turned off.

      --
      When you cant win, ad hominem.
    21. Re:I like... by ArcadeMan · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Just because it won't solve 100% of the problems doesn't mean it shouldn't be applied as one of multiple solutions.

      As for your "recorded half-way through" comment, it would be clear that the video didn't start at the beginning and that the cops arrived late at the scene. If a jury can't understand that, you're fucked anyway.

    22. Re:I like... by rickb928 · · Score: 5, Insightful

      You don't know very many republicans, I suspect. I'm one, and I'm all for this.

      What I am opposed to, for the moment, would be:

      - Federal compulsory regulation requiring this. Local governments (and state governments as well) have the responsibility and so can make the decisions themselves. Claims that federal civil rights law would compel this are specious. Federal intrusion here leads only to more federal control, and I'm still enough of a Conservative to oppose this.

      - Federal funding, which would be the vehicle for regulation. Federal funding is the hammer to drive control. Just say no. Those dollars came from somewhere, you know.

      Police departments and communities that have problems with their police already know this, and should be acting. Citizens need to elect officials that ensure that problems are solved.

      --
      deleting the extra space after periods so i can stay relevant, yeah.
    23. Re:I like... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Yeah, it will: it will put the case back into a he said/she said context, against the word of a cop... pretty much what we have now, in which it's virtually impossible to prove wrongdoing on the part of the police department. They already routinely "lose" video evidence in cases where officers are accused of breaking the law; people are so quick to jump on this argument precisely because it happens every day.

      You simply cannot make it the responsibility of the accused to preserve the evidence. That is not an acceptable scenario in any credible judicial system.

    24. Re:I like... by NatasRevol · · Score: 2

      Where is the money going to come for all these cameras?

      Sell a fucking tank that the federal gov't gave you, for free.

      --
      There are two types of people in the world: Those who crave closure
    25. Re:I like... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Cops should have to have video cameras that record at all times when they are on duty and if any footage is missing, the officer is automatically suspended pending a full investigation.

    26. Re:I like... by NatasRevol · · Score: 1

      One small problem with that theory... if they "inconveniently lose" a critical bit of video evidence at trial, the defense would savage them for it, and the jury is likely to let that fact color their decision in a way that is not advantageous to the prosecution.

      Innocent people can still go to jail. Or pay a lot of money to lawyers. Not exactly due process.

      --
      There are two types of people in the world: Those who crave closure
    27. Re:I like... by hondo77 · · Score: 1

      The cops would have control over the tapes, right?

      Doesn't have to be that way. Put the City Clerk's office in charge of them (though I'm sure the officers' unions would have something to say about that). There are probably laws already in place that makes tampering with things like that a crime, if not a felony.

      --
      I live ze unknown. I love ze unknown. I am ze unknown.
    28. Re:I like... by OakDragon · · Score: 1

      I like the idea, but this is not a federal government issue.

    29. Re:I like... by i+kan+reed · · Score: 2

      To be fair, electors from both parties often do things no one wants.

    30. Re:I like... by MadCow42 · · Score: 1

      I agree 100% - even today, recordings from cop cars only see to be available when it's in the police's interest, and are destroyed or not working otherwise.

      The best solution I heard was in the book Lockstep - where police were actually remote controlled robots. One robot was always controlled by an independent 3rd party operator, a civilian. That would ensure accountability and fairness.

      --
      I used to have a sig, but I set it free and it never came back.
    31. Re:I like... by hypergreatthing · · Score: 1

      Only police unions and dirty cops.

    32. Re:I like... by KamikazeSquid · · Score: 5, Insightful

      What if the police got to the scene of a crime after the victim (a black man) managed to turn the tables on the attacker (a white woman) and the only thing the camera saw was the victim (a black man) attacking the attacker (a white woman) in a panicked frenzy? Camera and the police says the victim (a black man) is the attacker, therefore the victim (a black man) gets arrested. Investigation? Why conduct one when the police (partly) caught a black man beating a white woman on camera?

      How is this any different from the current situation? Currently, said officer will simply testify in court, "I arrived at the scene and the only thing I saw was a black man attacking a white woman in a panicked frenzy."

      At least, with the camera solution, we can be 100% sure that the officer isn't telling a flat-out lie when they say something like that in court.

    33. Re:I like... by poetmatt · · Score: 2

      It will save a hell of a lot of the settlements they have as a result of illegal police action as it will hold police accountable, too.

      That is as long as they can't disable or prevent the recording.

      So far, it seems every version of a camera tool lets an officer later review and potentially delete the information, which can lead back to the same coverup/problems.

    34. Re:I like... by OS2toMAC · · Score: 1

      So, you want to watch the officer go to the bathroom?

    35. Re:I like... by ShanghaiBill · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Nor would it change the fact that people would still bring (founded and unfounded) lawsuits against the police.

      This is flat out wrong. All the evidence to date shows that cop-cams result in a dramatic reduction in complaints, for two reasons:
      1. Since there is a recording, there are far fewer false allegations
      2. Since they are being recorded, the cops behave better, so there are fewer incidents that result in valid allegations.

      Here is a typical result:

      THE Rialto study began in February 2012 and will run until this July. The results from the first 12 months are striking. Even with only half of the 54 uniformed patrol officers wearing cameras at any given time, the department over all had an 88 percent decline in the number of complaints filed against officers, compared with the 12 months before the study, to 3 from 24.

      But body cameras will solve all that, right?

      In the case of Michael Brown, YES, a camera likely would have prevented the riots. The riots didn't occur because a white cop killed a black kid, but because there was a perception that it was unjustified and the cop "got away with it". If there was a camera, there would be much less dispute about what happened. The camera would either show that the shooting was justified, or it would show that it was not and the cop would be charged with murder. In either case, I don't think there would be a riot.

    36. Re:I like... by Lumpy · · Score: 1

      I want tazers connected to the cameras and citizens live monitoring.. if over 100 people monitoring think the officer is out of control they can taze him remotely.

      Officer Johnson you need to cool down, you have 5 seconds to comply......

      --
      Do not look at laser with remaining good eye.
    37. Re:I like... by Lumpy · · Score: 1

      They already have this, cop cars already have cameras so expansion to hold compressed H323 video is not hard.

      --
      Do not look at laser with remaining good eye.
    38. Re:I like... by Lumpy · · Score: 3, Insightful

      They can sell the M16's and assault vehicles they dont need to fund the cameras.

      --
      Do not look at laser with remaining good eye.
    39. Re:I like... by Lumpy · · Score: 1

      Simple solution. cop disabled camera? instantly fired and blackballed from ever being a cop again. Maybe he can be a mall cop.

      --
      Do not look at laser with remaining good eye.
    40. Re:I like... by Lumpy · · Score: 1

      News flash: they already do.

      --
      Do not look at laser with remaining good eye.
    41. Re:I like... by Just+Some+Guy · · Score: 1

      (including an officer recall if the feed fails)

      No, including "you are only a uniformed officer while the feed is live. If it stops, you are a regular private citizen until it's restarted".

      Then it's not police brutality. It's armed citizen brutality, without all the protections of the badge.

      --
      Dewey, what part of this looks like authorities should be involved?
    42. Re:I like... by FuegoFuerte · · Score: 1

      It's a great idea... until technology progresses just a bit further, and these cameras are equipped with facial recognition, GPS and data capabilities, and all tied into a giant back-end database tracking exactly who was where at what time...

      You think the surveillance state is creepy now, wait until every cop is a roving track-your-location bot. The reasons for it now are reasonable, and I have no problem with cops having video of their encounters with people. But give it a decade or two (maybe less) and it could be come a very creepy bad thing.

    43. Re:I like... by Mister+Liberty · · Score: 1

      Actually it's a good idea. Except we'll have to come up with something to alleviate the
      problem that's called "we lost the film roll", "the camera was malfunctioning/unoperative",
      and similar unfortunate snags that always seem to favor the strong arm.

    44. Re:I like... by morgauxo · · Score: 1

      "What if the police got to the scene of a crime after..."

      The same point could be made against the officer giving any testimony of what he saw.

      "but it would still require a massive database and supporting infrastructure"

      If this happens I don't know how it will actually be implemented. Maybe lawmakers will mandate some huge infrastructure. I don't think that is necessary though.

        I think the camera should probably send it's data wirelessly to a box in the police car. That box should be made from heavy gauge steel with a lock the officer does not get a key for. Any tampering would be a federal offense punishable by jailtime. Inside is a computer that stores the data and automatically deletes anything older than some arbitrary age (How about a week?). So long as nothing funny happens that's as far as the data needs to go.

      For a little more robust of a system the car could sync it's stored footage with a computer at the police station. This would happen wirelessly and automatically. The syncing process would NOT delete anything from the car's own box.

    45. Re:I like... by Jason+Levine · · Score: 1

      Even in this extreme case, it would be useful. Obviously, the police often arrive mid-situation. They need to use their judgement based on what they see at the time. The cameras will help by showing us just what they saw and how that led to their actions. In the case of Good Cops, it can exonerate them if the "victims" were shown to be ignoring the police and getting aggressive. In the case of Bad Cops, it can show the the victims weren't getting aggressive like the police claimed and actually were trying to comply. It wouldn't be perfect, but it would be better than "Person A says this happened but the cop says that happened."

      --
      My sci-fi novel, Ghost Thief, is now available from Amazon.com.
    46. Re:I like... by morgauxo · · Score: 1

      Short of real-time sending the data to a remote location not under control of the local police department you can't realy eliminate the problem. I think that would take too much mobile bandwidth.

      The problem could be minimized through procedure or even law. Standard procedure should be that the data never gets manually erased. (Actually, don't even put controls on there to do so). Let it roll over. If no-one complains about the officer within a week the week old data deletes itself to make room. If the officer delete's his/her own footage, that should be a punishable offense all by itself. If it lines up with a time when the officer was acused of something... the fact the officer deleted something itself becomes evidence. It's also a case for a destruction of evidence charge.

    47. Re:I like... by DroolTwist · · Score: 3, Insightful

      I agree with your post, except for the last part about rioting. There would absolutely be riots, because the rioting had nothing to do with the issue at hand. The riots were nothing more than a means to an end (ie, a bunch of thugs getting free stuff). Heck, half of the rioters came in from out of town if you believed the news reports, and people that lived in the area who were interviewed.

    48. Re:I like... by Belial6 · · Score: 1

      No, a plea bargain is a forced confession under the duress of being threatened with being tried for extra charges that the prosecutor does not believe you can legitimately be convicted of.

    49. Re:I like... by funwithBSD · · Score: 5, Insightful

      As a Republican, I 100% agree with the idea and want it to happen.

      I also want codified in that same law that all citizens are able to video officers for any reason at any time if they can do so from pubic property or private property they are allowed to do so, and are not physically hampering what is going on.

      Any attempt to keep the public from recording or interfering with that recording is de facto proof of violating the civil rights of the photographer and the person that the officers are engaging.

      --
      Never answer an anonymous letter. - Yogi Berra
    50. Re:I like... by UnknownSoldier · · Score: 1

      The only people making excuses are those that:

      want Authority without Accountability.

    51. Re:I like... by Rich0 · · Score: 1

      Agree. I have a dash cam in each of my cars and it only cost $70. Everything but the battery in those would be more than adequate for something an officer would wear. Obviously a police officer would not be tethered to a car, so I can accept that a portable unit with an all-day battery capacity would cost more, though the battery could be attached to the belt.

    52. Re:I like... by funwithBSD · · Score: 1

      The term is "Spoliation of Evidence" and is criminal in many jurisdictions.

      --
      Never answer an anonymous letter. - Yogi Berra
    53. Re:I like... by Rich0 · · Score: 1

      Fighting crime costs money. If we wanted to save money, we could just fire all the cops. It is worth it to spend $20k rehabilitating somebody who is caught committing a crime that costs society $100, because the alternative is more crimes being committed, and likely at escalating cost.

      These cameras would be an incredibly beneficial investment. It is worth it simply for the ability to restore faith in the good cops who have been doing their jobs right all along. Chances are it will turn quite a few of the rotten ones into at least acceptable ones.

    54. Re:I like... by ShanghaiBill · · Score: 5, Interesting

      it will put the case back into a he said/she said context, against the word of a cop... pretty much what we have now

      No. It is not at all what we have now. Without a camera, it is my word against the cop. With a camera, it is my word against a cop that is claiming he "lost" critical exculpatory evidence. That is a huge difference, because in the second case the cop will have far less credibility. I have served on juries several times, although only once where the credibility of the cop was an issue. The jurors did NOT just assume he was telling the truth. Instead, we discussed his possible motivations for lying and distorting the evidence. In the end, we chose to believe him, because we didn't see any reason for him to lie, and his testimony was corroborated by other evidence. Juries tend to be made up of minorities, and economically disadvantaged people, that don't have the motivation or ability to weasel out of it. These are the people least likely to believe cops. If the cop says the camera malfunctioned, the defendant is going to walk.

    55. Re:I like... by Registered+Coward+v2 · · Score: 1

      it's only a bad idea if the police have control over the recordings ... then you would see incriminating footage getting lost or deleted (and blamed on "equipment failure" ) & only exculpatory (for the police) footage being preserved.

      First off all, tampering with evidence is a crime. Tampering with it would be visible and if only the "bad" parts turned up missing. If evidence is "lost" a defense attorney will have a field day with that, and having been on juries, jurors would take the losing of evidence as a sign the police weren't being truthful.

      I'm all for it (despite the expansion of the panopticon) if the cameras are always on (including an officer recall if the feed fails), the feed is streamed to a remote location, the record is administered by a public advocacy agency and available for public review, and all interactions of a routine nature are deleted after a fixed period of time.

      While it isn't live streamed, evidence from dash cams gets streamed (at least where I live) when the car returns to the station. The camera rolls all the time and when the blue lights go on it saves the recording starting from sometime before the blue lights go on.

      One interesting use of this would to be to compare the officers actions during similar stops. "So Officer X, when you stopped X,Y,and Z for whatever you acts dlike this and then when my client was stopped you acted differently. Why is that?"

      --
      I'm a consultant - I convert gibberish into cash-flow.
    56. Re:I like... by Belial6 · · Score: 1

      We all know that purchase price is only a small fraction of TCO. Even if they get the military equipment for free, it isn't free to maintain it. Claims that there is little to no cost involved in purchasing military equipment isn't even a good lie.

    57. Re:I like... by Jason+Levine · · Score: 1

      Also, I'm sure that equipment doesn't just get shoved into a box and forgotten about. There are likely maintenance costs involved. Even if it just shoved into a box until needed, there are likely storage costs. Do away with the tanks for local police and they might find they have some money for cameras.

      --
      My sci-fi novel, Ghost Thief, is now available from Amazon.com.
    58. Re:I like... by Jason+Levine · · Score: 1

      People behave better when they know they are being filmed.

      Not always otherwise the old TV show COPS wouldn't have had any footage to use.

      Come to think of it, though, perhaps the local departments could sell some footage to TV "reality" shows in exchange for funding to use the cameras. This arrest brought to you by NBC's new fall lineup!

      --
      My sci-fi novel, Ghost Thief, is now available from Amazon.com.
    59. Re:I like... by sjames · · Score: 1

      It's easily solved if the law requiring the cameras also requires that 'missing' video for any reason is to be treated as destroyed evidence in court. That is that it shall be assumed that the video was favorable to the other party's position.

      So if the plaintiff in the civil suit says he was beaten unprovoked and the video is missing, then as far as the court is concerned, it would have shown an unprovoked beating.

    60. Re:I like... by sjames · · Score: 1

      While plausible, your scenario plays out pretty much the same way now without the camera.

    61. Re:I like... by u-235-sentinel · · Score: 1

      Whether they get a "good deal" on the military equipment isn't the point. Does any of that unneeded equipment cost more than a camera? Then get the camera instead.

      Isn't it? Pricing out the "good deal" they received on the military equipment. I'm sure it's far more expensive than your common body camera. Selling some of this unnecessary equipment would cover the cost easily.

      --
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    62. Re:I like... by tommyatomic · · Score: 1

      Yet they can afford armored vehicles and military weapons.

      I agree with the point it seems like your trying to make but I'd like to point out that the state and municipal police dept arent buying ANY armored vehicles or military weapons. They are actually being given surplus assault vehicles and military weapons for FREE. They still have to buy ammunition and additional magazines though.

      Take an MRAP to a metal recycler and junk it to pay for the cameras.

    63. Re:I like... by icebike · · Score: 3, Insightful

      he camera itself might be a tiny, tiny fraction of the salary of a cop, but it would still require a massive database and supporting infrastructure to run/maintain the entire implementation. Nor would it change the fact that people would still bring (founded and unfounded) lawsuits against the police.

      Don't be ridiculous
      We already bear massive costs of litigation and document storage.
      This saves money two ways, Cops know they are being watched, and criminals can't make bogus claims.
      The cost for several years of operation would be offset by the absence of ONE riot or bogus lawsuit.

      The whole thing can be automated.
      You come in from your shift, put your cam in bin, it gets copied to bulk storage.
      Key in your badge number, (maybe RFID) and machine dispenses an empty camera every morning.

      (Hint: storage is dirt cheap the backup/storage/indexing etc deletion can be entirely automated. )

      If all you did was patrol and never had a single arrest or confrontation it gets purged in 90 days.
      Every day, there better be video on the camera, or Internal Affairs is going to want to know why.

      By the way: for every ridiculous example you cite there are 33,000 arrests every day that are not convoluted contrived cases. And even in the situation you describe the police video would not be enough to convict anyone. Saying you should not have evidence because you can contrive a situation where it might not be the whole store is tantamount to shutting down all scientific research world wide. You, sir, are an idiot.

      --
      Sig Battery depleted. Reverting to safe mode.
    64. Re:I like... by sjames · · Score: 1

      For once though, the Feds would be acting within the Constitution by requiring this.

    65. Re:I like... by John+Jorsett · · Score: 2

      The camera itself might be a tiny, tiny fraction of the salary of a cop, but it would still require a massive database and supporting infrastructure to run/maintain the entire implementation. Nor would it change the fact that people would still bring (founded and unfounded) lawsuits against the police.

      What if the police got to the scene of a crime after the victim (a black man) managed to turn the tables on the attacker (a white woman) and the only thing the camera saw was the victim (a black man) attacking the attacker (a white woman) in a panicked frenzy? Camera and the police says the victim (a black man) is the attacker, therefore the victim (a black man) gets arrested. Investigation? Why conduct one when the police (partly) caught a black man beating a white woman on camera?

      Are you arguing that no data is better than some data? We have that today and look what it's getting us. Even if use of cameras doesn'r solve all problems, the benefits far outweigh the drawbacks, IMO. Even in your scenario what would happen without a camera is the cops would testify that they saw it happening and the Black victim would be in the same situation. At least with cameras you remove any subjectivity or outright bias on the cops' part.

    66. Re:I like... by icebike · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Being able to prove that he was or was not lying would stop the riots.

      Probably not, because when people riot they aren't looking for or likely to believe evidence.
      Cops would have to release the entire video to the media, and the lawyers wouldn't let that happen.
      The lawyers would still fuck this up.

      --
      Sig Battery depleted. Reverting to safe mode.
    67. Re:I like... by mspohr · · Score: 1

      Communities which have adopted cop cameras have experienced a sharp drop in the number of complaints and the cost of settling complaints.
      Your hypothetical is absurd.

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    68. Re:I like... by ceoyoyo · · Score: 1

      Why would the cops say the woman attacked the man if they only got there in time to see the man attacking the woman?

    69. Re:I like... by mspohr · · Score: 2

      Case in point... Nixon's tapes. He recorded everything... except a 21 minute gap that "accidentally" got deleted. Nobody believed him. Cops who "lose" parts of recordings will be outed quickly.

      --
      I don't read your sig. Why are you reading mine?
    70. Re:I like... by funwithBSD · · Score: 1

      Well, we have been so successful at lowering taxes half the population pays only 2.5% of the tax burden. Not per person, the whole group.
      You can't reduce the federal tax burden effectively unless someone makes 66K or more. The top 10% pays 70% of the bill.

      So all tax reduction bills tend to benefit the "rich" by definition.

      --
      Never answer an anonymous letter. - Yogi Berra
    71. Re:I like... by John+Jorsett · · Score: 1

      Everyone likes accountability when they have control over it. The cops would have control over the tapes, right? So they get to choose which parts to show and which parts to "inconveniently lose."

      One small problem with that theory... if they "inconveniently lose" a critical bit of video evidence at trial, the defense would savage them for it, and the jury is likely to let that fact color their decision in a way that is not advantageous to the prosecution.

      The Rialto experiment has shown that in all instances where force was used, the cameras were turned on, so the "conveniently lose" scenario isn't borne out by at least one real-world study. I went looking, and couldn't find any mention of whether or not a cop could "lose" a video even if s/he wanted to. The only control mentioned was the ability to turn it on or off, they're mandated to turn it on before encounters with the public, and apparently always do.

    72. Re:I like... by cyberchondriac · · Score: 1

      I agree. In general, I don't have any issue with anyone recording anything in public. Cops or citizens, doesn't matter. Private, yes, public, no.
      If people are doing whatever they're doing in public, there should be no expectation of "privacy" as such. The only difference with a camera is that you'll get the actual truth of what happened, instead of someone's flawed recollection. I'll trust a camera over someone's memory, judgement, bias or perception anyday.

      Privacy advocates will probably heap on me at this point, so I will clarify: I don't think that gives someone the right to hawk over someone recording everything they do, that's just harassment. Then there will be arguments over what constitutes harassment, and that's fair. But if someone happens to have a camera out in a public park or street, and someone else walks by and does something stupid, that's on them. They did it, they own it, and they did it in public.
      Even if there is still room for interpretation with a camera (due to say, limited angle, or lack of context) it's still better than relying on someone's recollection, especially if the camera is on all the time. Most video issues are due to lack of context, because the camera is only running during a part of the entire event. Human perception is a very fickle, unreliable thing, ask any decent magician, or watch that show, "Mind games". After watching that, I wouldn't take anyone's testimonial without a shaker of salt.

      --

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    73. Re:I like... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Given that some of the rioters were just looters & thugs looking for an excuse, there would probably have still been one.

      It would have been on a much smaller scale though. Harder to stay angry when you can see that something *is* being done.

    74. Re:I like... by funwithBSD · · Score: 2

      Too fucking bad police.

      If you want us to give up our rights so you can protect the greater society at large... you will do what we fucking want you to do.

      Or are the wrong person for the job, go do something else.

      Disabling the camera would be Spoliation of Evidence, and is a crime in most places.

      --
      Never answer an anonymous letter. - Yogi Berra
    75. Re:I like... by funwithBSD · · Score: 1

      It is, as the IRS is finding out about missing emails.

      --
      Never answer an anonymous letter. - Yogi Berra
    76. Re:I like... by funwithBSD · · Score: 2

      I want it made clear, as some jurisdictions, such as California, consider it wiretapping if you record voice without the other person's consent, even in public.

      --
      Never answer an anonymous letter. - Yogi Berra
    77. Re:I like... by Jarik+C-Bol · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Ok, stop being a dipshit and look some stuff up. here's a good starting point:
      http://www.thewire.com/nationa...

      If you're to lazy to read that, here's the condensed version: Most available "Body Cams" for cops use a system where the cop turns the camera on when responding to a call/situation via a double click on a single button on the device. (exactly when the cop is required to turn on the device is decided by department regulations) They can stop recording via the same input. The devices have no controls to erase data, and it is stored until the unit returns to base, at which time it uploads to a secure server run by the manufacturer of the device, which is essentially a digital evidence vault. In the vault, it can only be accessed by verified administrators, usually police chiefs. Now, you may say "well the cop can just turn off the recorder if they want to do something bad." Sure, and at that point, they would be violating department regulations, and subject the case to a lot MORE scrutiny. The online system logs who and when anyone accesses the video in the vault, and wether or not it is copied out of the vault. The point is, the infrastructure is already in place, with hardware available through at least 3 different companies, with extremely well thought out safeguards against the exact sort of asshattery everyone here is claiming will go on if cops are required to use body cams.

      No mater what, going from a "this story versus that story" to "two stories, and some video" is an great step towards fair treatment and accurately administered justice.

      --
      I've decided to Diversify my Holdings. I've divided my cash between my left and right pockets, instead of all in one.
    78. Re:I like... by q4Fry · · Score: 1

      While this is funny, it is going to fall to the twelve-year-olds of the internet who will make sure that every officer is tazed without ceasing.

    79. Re:I like... by blue9steel · · Score: 1

      Maybe due to the fact that they seem to have gone off the deep end over the last few decades?

    80. Re:I like... by Belial6 · · Score: 1

      Given that every street light in my county already has cameras attached, it seems we are already committed. I am still amazed at how easily the population accepted thousands of cameras to be installed around the county.

      As far as I am aware, this is the norm throughout Northern California. Is this not common in other parts of the country?

    81. Re:I like... by blue9steel · · Score: 1

      Well, in 2010 the bottom 50% owned 1.1% of the nations wealth, so if they're paying 2.5% of the taxes then they're probably getting a raw deal.

    82. Re:I like... by MondoGordo · · Score: 1

      And this is why the cops arrest people for filming them on duty ... confiscate phones/cameras ... make people delete recordings. They don't want a record that they can't control.

    83. Re:I like... by MondoGordo · · Score: 1

      and that supposes you can afford a lawyer or get a public defender who has your interests at heart(this by the way is a creature so rare that it travels by unicorn) .

    84. Re:I like... by ShanghaiBill · · Score: 4, Insightful

      The riots were nothing more than a means to an end (ie, a bunch of thugs getting free stuff).

      There were lots of peaceful protesters and far fewer rioters. The police were distracted, and rioters used the protests as cover. If there had been no protests, there would have been no riot. If there was a clear record of what happened, there would have been no protest. For instance, this shooting looks unjustified to me, and the police lied about what happened, saying the perp came toward them with a raised knife, and they only fired when he was 2-3 feet away. None of that was true. But there was no protest or riot.

    85. Re:I like... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Actually, the rioting occurred because the initial witnesses described the cop as having executed the kid. It was several days before we heard information that gave context. By then, the momentum of the riots was too great to stop.

    86. Re:I like... by MondoGordo · · Score: 1

      Nice!

    87. Re:I like... by Mishotaki · · Score: 1

      They can sell the M16's and assault vehicles they dont need to fund the cameras.

      and who would buy them? so you prefer that the general population get those than the police?

    88. Re:I like... by VTBlue · · Score: 1

      I'm pretty sure a 25tb synology NAS setup by a certified and audited by a law enforcement watchdog would suffice. The hardware costs are TINY! It's the governance of the system might require extra people. Last I checked unemployment is up :)

    89. Re:I like... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      The police department in Ferguson, MO had ordered body cameras for their officers just a couple of weeks before the incident. They were delivered on the following Monday after the shooting, in the midst of riots and stupidity. They obviously have not had an opportunity to deploy them yet.

      Dash cams, now that's a different story, and they should've had those long ago. Most of the rest of the departments in the area already do. STL county has had them for a couple of decades.

    90. Re:I like... by DeBattell · · Score: 1

      Law enforcement people I have heard speak on the subject say that the cameras will easily pay for themselves in reduced legal expenses.

    91. Re: I like... by spamking · · Score: 1

      So Republicans alone have gone crazy the last decade or so. Who knew?

    92. Re:I like... by MondoGordo · · Score: 1

      Streaming 1GB/hr is not viable ? really ? that would take a bandwidth of about 3 Mbit/s ...

    93. Re:I like... by Nidi62 · · Score: 1

      Ever watch Wild Justice on NatGeo? They wear small cameras mounted on their shoulder, not sure if it is just part of the show or standard equipment for them, but the show has used footage from the cameras before and they don't seem to affect the capabilities of the officers at all.

      --
      The only thing necessary for evil to triumph is for it to be pitted against a slightly greater evil
    94. Re:I like... by thatshortkid · · Score: 1

      "I'm absolutely convinced that a riot merely intensifies the fears of the white community while relieving the guilt. And I feel that we must always work with an effective, powerful weapon and method that brings about tangible results. But it is not enough for me to stand before you tonight and condemn riots. It would be morally irresponsible for me to do that without, at the same time, condemning the contingent, intolerable conditions that exist in our society. These conditions are the things that cause individuals to feel that they have no other alternative than to engage in violent rebellions to get attention. And I must say tonight that a riot is the language of the unheard. And what is it America has failed to hear? It has failed to hear that the plight of the negro poor has worsened over the last twelve or fifteen years. It has failed to hear that the promises of freedom and justice have not been met. And it has failed to hear that large segments of white society are more concerned about tranquility and the status quo than about justice and humanity." -- some thug

      --
      The IRS is the one organization that you don't want to fuck with. Remember, these are the guys who took down Al Capone.
    95. Re:I like... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      As for your "recorded half-way through" comment, it would be clear that the video didn't start at the beginning and that the cops arrived late at the scene. If a jury can't understand that, you're fucked anyway.

      Ever heard of Rodney King? A recording from "half-way through" showed four white guys beating some poor innocent black dude.
      The full video showed four white cops kicking the ass of a drunken black punk that attacked them when they tried to arrest him.

      Big difference, and the reason for weeks of riots and hundreds of millions of dollars in damage.

    96. Re: I like... by blue9steel · · Score: 1

      Republican positions have gotten significantly more extreme starting with Nixon and accelerating as they approached the present. Most previous Republican presidents would never make it out of the primaries today. I was originally registered as a Republican but when they started purging all the moderates and proceeded to go full on crazy it just didn't make sense any more. *shrug* Demographics are going to tear them apart if they don't change their message, it's going to be interesting to watch.

    97. Re: I like... by rickb928 · · Score: 1

      I disagree. Care to elaborate on what conditional authority the feds would be operating under?

      --
      deleting the extra space after periods so i can stay relevant, yeah.
    98. Re: I like... by sjames · · Score: 1

      The 4th, 1st, and 6th amendments. All of which have been regularly violated when nobody was looking.

    99. Re:I like... by rtb61 · · Score: 1

      Simple solution, continuous live streams, camera goes offline and the officer must immediately return to the station. So four hour charge and officer returns to station during lunch break for a new battery pack. Advantage of live stream is the data can be stored independently of officer and his station and only be deleted once it has been cleared of any policing activity. Of course the Feds would love hundreds of thousands of roving live stream cameras to tap into.

      Now the big problem dropping the ring wing knee jerk fuck wit idea of performance based policing and police to put public interactions on a time limit. Police should be allowed to take as long as necessary in order to de-escalate situations rather than taking the quick route of emptying their magazine into difficult persons.

      --
      Chaos - everything, everywhere, everywhen
    100. Re:I like... by Noxal · · Score: 1

      The squad cars at the police department for which I work all have solid metal DVRs. You need a key to access SD cards. The same concept should be able to work for wearable cameras, just use lightweight metals or durable plastics or whatever. Make them tamper-proof.

    101. Re:I like... by BronsCon · · Score: 1
      Well, you seem to have agreed with what I was actually saying

      they'll just remove this particular venus

      while ignoring the context in which it was said.

      White cop shoots black kid. White cop goes free, black kid is (supposedly) framed as a thief. Oh, but we'll have to wait MONTHS for the FEDERAL investigation to be completed because the LOCAL POLICE fucked up so badly there was RIOTING in the streets for over a week.

      Well, I never said it would solve *all* rioting, did I?

      --
      APK quotes people (including myself) without context and should not be trusted. Just thought you should know.
    102. Re:I like... by Patent+Lover · · Score: 1

      The general population already has them at their own expense. How about just junk the guns and buy them cameras. The final outcome would be much better for all parties.

    103. Re:I like... by shutdown+-p+now · · Score: 1

      I agree with the point it seems like your trying to make but I'd like to point out that the state and municipal police dept arent buying ANY armored vehicles or military weapons. They are actually being given surplus assault vehicles and military weapons for FREE.

      This isn't quite true. Technically speaking, they are getting money from the feds to buy those vehicles and weapons from the approved list.

    104. Re:I like... by BitZtream · · Score: 2, Insightful

      ... have you watched the full video ... because it confirms exactly what the police said, and has people on the video talking about how he ran at the cop with a knife even though its not visible in the video itself.

      Not sure at all how you got that it was all lies. Pretty much EVERYONE else recognizes that it was suicide by cop.

      You've watched an edited version that removes the beginning where the camera walks by the guy holding the knife. The camera man originally passed within a few feet of the victim from the same direction that cop vehicle came in from. You're also not seeing the ending where the witnesses are discussing the fact that he ran at the cop with a knife that THEY saw which you can't see on a shitty phone video.

      You're basically watching the Julian Assange edit of the video thats designed to mislead you into thinking collateral murder.

      There was no protest or riot because the full version of the video took away every excuse to protest. The guy had mental issues, had just robbed a store and was standing on the curb daring anyone to fuck with him and to try and get the two sodas he took from the store.

      --
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    105. Re: I like... by rickb928 · · Score: 1

      These responsibilities have been with local authorities all along. What has changed? Technology? Funding?

      The federal government can continue to monitor and enforce constitutional protections without new mandates forced by federal law and the narcotic of federal money.

      --
      deleting the extra space after periods so i can stay relevant, yeah.
    106. Re:I like... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      The rioting occurred only because the current President and Attorney General share the phenotype. Nothing more, nothing less and nothing other.

      The racists were right all along.

    107. Re:I like... by nbauman · · Score: 5, Insightful

      The shooting in Ferguson was used as an excuse to riot.

      Look at the story, every 'witness' says he was shot in the back running away ... until the autopsy shows that NONE of the wounds were in his back. From the start every witness account was bullshit.

      No. "Every" witness didn't say that. Lawyers who regularly investigate situations like this say that when you have a lot of witnesses, you get different accounts. When every witness gives the same story, they assume that the witnesses got together and made up a story together -- which cops often do.

      Ferguson was a town in which most of the population was black, the cops were white, the district attorney was white, and most of the politicians were white. One of the main sources of income for the town was stopping black motorists and giving them traffic tickets.

      There were many incidents of brutality by white cops against black people, and this was only the last straw. Most of the demonstrators were peaceful.

      And oh yeah. The residents made a memorial for Michael Brown, his mother laid flowers on the spot that he was killed -- and one of the cops brought a police dog to urinate on it.

      http://www.motherjones.com/pol...
      Michael Brown's Mom Laid Flowers Where He Was Shot—and Police Crushed Them

      As darkness fell on Canfield Drive on August 9, a makeshift memorial sprang up in the middle of the street where Michael Brown's body had been sprawled in plain view for more than four hours. Flowers and candles were scattered over the bloodstains on the pavement. Someone had affixed a stuffed animal to a streetlight pole a few yards away. Neighborhood residents and others were gathering, many of them upset and angry.

      Soon, police vehicles reappeared, including from the St. Louis County Police Department, which had taken control of the investigation. Several officers emerged with dogs. What happened next, according to several sources, was emblematic of what has inflamed the city of Ferguson, Missouri, ever since the unarmed 18-year-old was gunned down: An officer on the street let the dog he was controlling urinate on the memorial site.

      Suppose some cop brought his police dog to piss on your mother's grave. Would you get mad?

      The reason they have race riots, all over this country, is that people go through the whole process of polite complaints and peaceful demonstrations, and get nowhere. They're routinely getting killed and the cops routinely get away with it. And then the cops stop them in the street and humiliate them, like they did here when they knew they were the center of attention with cameras around. What do you suppose they're doing when there aren't any reporters around?

      They riot because they found out that riots are the only thing that works. When they burn down the town, the white establishment finally pays attention.

      I doubt that you would pay attention otherwise.

    108. Re:I like... by schlachter · · Score: 3, Insightful

      The feds should mandate that all victims must wear cams too!

      --
      My God can beat up your God. Just kidding...don't take offense. I know there's no God.
    109. Re:I like... by nbauman · · Score: 1

      Nor would it change the fact that people would still bring (founded and unfounded) lawsuits against the police.

      Please don't give me that bullshit about "lawsuits against the police." The Republican Supreme Court with its legislation from the bench has made it impossible to sue the police.

      http://www.nytimes.com/2014/08...
      How the Supreme Court Protects Bad Cops
      By ERWIN CHEMERINSKY
      AUG. 26, 2014
      (Summary: Even if a federal investigation shows that Darren Wilson acted improperly in killing MIchael Brown, the Supreme Court has made it difficult, and often impossible, to hold officers and governments accountable for civil rights violation. In Plumhoff v. Rickard, the court found that it was not "excessive force" to fire 15 shots into a car, killing the driver and passenger, after a chase that reached speeds of >100mph. Alito ruled that the driver's conduct posed a "grave public safety risk," and that the police were justified in shooting the car to stop it, and that it “stands to reason that, if police officers are justified in firing at a suspect in order to end a severe threat to public safety, the officers need not stop shooting until the threat has ended.” This is true of any high-speed chase. In Connick v. Thompson (2011), John Thompson spent 14 years on death row because the New Orleans assistant district attorney didn't tell the defense that a crime lab said the perpetrator had a blood type that didn't match Thompson. Thompson sued the City of New Orleans, and was awarded $14 million. But the Court reversed 5-4, with Thomas writing that New Orleans couldn't be held liable because the plaintiff didn't prove that its own policies violated the Constitution. The Court also said that law enforcement officials "absolute immunity" to civil suits, even when they commit perjury or misconduct.)

    110. Re:I like... by Samantha+Wright · · Score: 1

      I was purely playing devil's advocate; honestly, I agree, it seems that there are plenty of safeguards against this sort of thing. Usually the topic comes up in the context of entire corrupt departments, IIRC.

      --
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    111. Re: I like... by sjames · · Score: 1

      These responsibilities have been with local authorities all along. What has changed? Technology? Funding?

      A combination of rampant failure to uphold that responsibility and technology becoming available to address the situation.

    112. Re:I like... by Noah+Haders · · Score: 1

      What if the police got to the scene of a crime after the victim (a black man) managed to turn the tables on the attacker (a white woman) and the only thing the camera saw was the victim (a black man) attacking the attacker (a white woman) in a panicked frenzy?

      what is the difference between the police seeing this and a police necklace camera seeing this? absent any conflicting proof the word of the police is gospel.

      And yes, I am picking an extreme example, but thats exactly how we got here in the first place. White cop shoots black kid. White cop goes free, black kid is (supposedly) framed as a thief.

      lol do you read the news or just hear stories at the bar? white cop shoots black kid, WHO DIES, and to create a bs "he had it coming" story police release unrelated video and that may or may not show a shoptheft. that's why people are upset.

      Oh, but we'll have to wait MONTHS for the FEDERAL investigation to be completed because the LOCAL POLICE fucked up so badly there was RIOTING in the streets for over a week. But body cameras will solve all that, right?

      yes, body cams would solve a lot of this. many people are rioting because they feel that the police are above the law and mistreat those they are sworn to protect. if there was a body cam system in place and people had confidence that the truth will come to light, and if the police didn't crack down on a peaceful protest with military trucks and sniper rifles pointed at US CITIZENS, then things would likely have remained peaceful.

    113. Re: I like... by rickb928 · · Score: 1

      There is no 'rampant' failure. And technology enabling encroachment on our freedoms does not justify the encroachment. Are you even paying attention? Technology is being used to harm us, not protect us.

      --
      deleting the extra space after periods so i can stay relevant, yeah.
    114. Re:I like... by Maxo-Texas · · Score: 1

      It's not quite so simple because of restrooms and other locations where people might be nude.

      I don't have a solution. I've just read it's one of the challenges.

      I think the car should record and stream constantly (no exceptions).

      The personal camera is a bit more tricky.

      --
      She was like chocolate when she drank... semi-sweet at first and then increasingly bitter.
    115. Re: I like... by rickb928 · · Score: 1

      It seems like you present the hypothesis that the government would propose an amendment to do what you then ask if I would accept.

      The government could not be trusted to propose an amendment to serve the people. Certainly not now, nor for the foreseeable future. In fact, if the states were to attempt to convene a convention, I expect the federal government to attempt to prevent it.

      Such an amendment would be unworkable and a sincerely bad idea. One of the most powerful aspects of our constitution of the fundamental nature of it. Specificity of principle, not narrowness of action.

      --
      deleting the extra space after periods so i can stay relevant, yeah.
    116. Re:I like... by Maelwryth · · Score: 1

      In the same way you have separation of powers, you need separation of information............least it be used against you.

      --
      I reserve the write to mangle english.
    117. Re:I like... by strikethree · · Score: 1

      As for your "recorded half-way through" comment, it would be clear that the video didn't start at the beginning and that the cops arrived late at the scene. If a jury can't understand that, you're fucked anyway.

      So you really are fucked anyway. Heh.

      --
      "Someone needs to talk to the tree of liberty about its ghoulish drinking problem." by ohnocitizen
    118. Re:I like... by Copid · · Score: 1

      I've always liked the idea of officers having to personally carry liability insurance. Bump their pay enough to cover the average liability insurance. Cops that behave badly and start to look risky to insurance carriers pay a personal cost. Insurance carriers would almost certainly add a "no coverage if your camera is off" clause to the policy pretty quickly. At minimum, carrying a camera would probably massively reduce your premiums. Turn the camera off and beat somebody up if you want to, but nobody has your back if it goes court and you're personally liable for damages.

      --
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    119. Re:I like... by scubamage · · Score: 1

      I hate to say this, but given the past, this is a good possibility. In Philadelphia, a police officer punched a woman in broad daylight, on a crowded street. There were scores of witnesses. All charges were dropped, and the judge ruled that "she fell into his fist." 1 month ago, NYPD officers killed a man using a chokehold which has been ruled illegal since the 1980's. Old Dominion police in June trespassed on a man's property, assaulted him, maced his entire family, all because he was standing on his porch recording them with a video camera. In Chicago, Skokie police refused to discipline an officer who was caught on film throwing a woman face first into a concrete holding cell bench, crushing the front of her skull. It wasn't until the DA stepped in that he saw charges. The police department refuses to admit wrongdoing.

    120. Re:I like... by scubamage · · Score: 1

      It shouldn't be a metal box. Metal boxes are very good at blocking signals. I do agree though, they must NOT have access to it, and there needs to be data retention laws put in place with stiff penalties if the department cannot produce the evidence during discovery of a trial.

    121. Re:I like... by scubamage · · Score: 1

      You'd be looking at more than that I think. A decent sized force will have hundreds of officers, each generating 8-12 hours of footage a day. Every day. There would likely also need to be retention planned for over 5 years, potentially much longer, since that is the statute of limitations on most crimes. Footage from something where someone died would have to be kept for life, because there is no statute of limitations on murder. That's not to say it couldn't be archived some way, but a single NAS isn't gonna cut it.

    122. Re:I like... by scubamage · · Score: 1

      Yep. Another step they could take to deter rioting is respecting the state's sunshine laws about disclosing information. Violating state law by making up non-existant loopholes to try and protect the officer from having his name get out shows a lot of ineptitude. 1 man being scared for his life is a significantly smaller issue than an entire town terrified that there is a kid killer on the loose and that the police are protecting his identity. Remember, if this goes to trial, it's going to be an affirmative defense. The shooter won't deny he killed the kid, he'll argue he was justified in shooting the kid. The public has a right to know who is a killer and who isn't.

    123. Re:I like... by scubamage · · Score: 1

      Self-deletion is a very bad idea. Statutes of limitations on crimes are upwards of 5 years all the way to forever (in the case of murder). Everything that camera records is evidence. Letting it delete itself is the same thing as intentionally deleting. They need to set up retention systems to store that data for at least 5 years. Suppose officers assault someone to the point where they're hospitalized. That person is comatose for weeks, only to come out of it and find out that the video has been deleted? Bad results.

    124. Re:I like... by scubamage · · Score: 1

      No silly, you sell the guns to the saudis at a nice low price. They'll provide the guns to terrorists, which will be used as a point requiring larger budgets for the military, the military purchases even more guns, more of those guns go to the police, and the cycle continues. Isn't the military industrial complex great??

    125. Re:I like... by scubamage · · Score: 1

      You're forgetting a key point - the hardware must be used within 1 year of receipt by the department. Something to consider when departments are getting free grenade launchers.

    126. Re: I like... by sjames · · Score: 1

      You haven't been reading the news if you don't realize that cops have been beating innocents, lying in court, claiming peaceful protesters are violent, and other such violations of rights that won't be so easy to get away with if the cop has to wear a camera.

    127. Re: I like... by rickb928 · · Score: 1

      More than ever? I'm not yet convinced. Seems no one remembers the past

      --
      deleting the extra space after periods so i can stay relevant, yeah.
    128. Re:I like... by Plumpaquatsch · · Score: 1

      Whether they get a "good deal" on the military equipment isn't the point. Does any of that unneeded equipment cost more than a camera? Then get the camera instead.

      Problem is, you can't "fight terrorism" with cameras. So the police in Hickstown, Wisconsin will still get all the military equipment they need to protect their town against IS insurgents trying to install their Caliphate there, even if they don't buy cameras. The DHS will make sure America is protected and ignore any law trying to keep them from giving money to that cause.

      --
      Of course news about a fake are Fake News.
    129. Re:I like... by dywolf · · Score: 1

      I think that's why he phrased it that way.
      That is, he phrased in way that casts it as "protecting the officer".

      Really, the debate shouldn't be that charged, as in actually it's really to protect BOTH the officer and the detained citizen, just like dash cams in squad cars. It's an impartial observer just recording the interaction. It's a good idea.

      --
      The guy who said the election was rigged won the presidency with the second-most votes.
    130. Re:I like... by Lumpy · · Score: 1

      IT seems we had a successful program selling guns to Mexican DrugLords a few years back... I'll be they will gladly buy them.

      --
      Do not look at laser with remaining good eye.
    131. Re: I like... by sjames · · Score: 1

      The more relevant point is that we now have the awareness and technology proven to curb the problem. It would be irresponsible NOT to use it everywhere.

    132. Re:I like... by dave420 · · Score: 1

      That's a pretty strong claim considering you have no evidence...

    133. Re: I like... by rickb928 · · Score: 1

      Just like surveillance technology (whoops, it *is* surveillance technology), or tracking technology, and those are just so helpful. Especially to those in power.

      I'm just as suspicious of this as I am of the police, the government at all levels, or our elected representatives. These entities all need adult supervision. And good controls.

      --
      deleting the extra space after periods so i can stay relevant, yeah.
    134. Re:I like... by funwithBSD · · Score: 1

      It is a little more grey than you think:
      "If you are recording someone without their knowledge in a public or semi-public place like a street or restaurant, the person whom you're recording may or may not have "an objectively reasonable expectation that no one is listening in or overhearing the conversation," and the reasonableness of the expectation would depend on the particular factual circumstances. Therefore, you cannot necessarily assume that you are in the clear simply because you are in a public place. "

      Methinks an officer would object on principle... he does not want to be recorded.

      http://www.dmlp.org/legal-guid...

      and this is very interesting read too:

      http://www.videomaker.com/arti...

      and this:
      http://www.rcfp.org/reporters-...

      Although a credentialed reporter is going to get more leeway than an average citizen.

      --
      Never answer an anonymous letter. - Yogi Berra
    135. Re:I like... by funwithBSD · · Score: 1

      Just because you don't get into a war of words with people who buy ink by the barrel, not because reporters are special.

      --
      Never answer an anonymous letter. - Yogi Berra
    136. Re:I like... by funwithBSD · · Score: 1

      You are taxed on income, not wealth.

      --
      Never answer an anonymous letter. - Yogi Berra
    137. Re:I like... by doccus · · Score: 1

      Of course, somebody will think this a bad idea...

      Like me? Does anyone REALLY think that with corruption at the highest level since the implementation iof domestic police ever, that THEY aren't going to edit, or at least show only part of an encounter themselves?

      "Your Honor, there was a camera malfunction during the portion the officer allegedly shot the supposedly unarmed boy 26 times"

      "Your Honor, the memory chip in the officers camera was accidentally damaged by a richochet when the officer purportedly ripped the witnesses smartphone and shot it to bits"

      Yeah, right..

    138. Re:I like... by stoatwblr · · Score: 1

      "Cops would have to release the entire video to the media, and the lawyers wouldn't let that happen."

      FOIA

      Blocking release would get extremely messy and federal.

    139. Re:I like... by blue9steel · · Score: 1

      That depends on the tax. Property taxes for example are a wealth tax.

      The bottom 50% make about 14.6% of the all income earned. A naive analysis would then suggest that they should be paying 14.6% of the taxes, but that doesn't take into account costs. For the same reason we don't tax businesses on their gross revenue, we shouldn't be taxing gross income for individuals.

      So, what constitutes "profit" for an individual? Their income minus the living wage for that number of household members. Using the income and household size data presented here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/H... we can the calculate that the bottom 50% of society earn -$110,797.80 in profit, which means they should pay -6.47% in taxes if things were set up fairly. If they currently pay +2.5% then they're being heavily over-taxed.

      Obviously this analysis makes the assumption that people deserve to make a living wage. If instead you assume that half of our population should live at the poverty line, then their profit is $86,001.00 and they should be paying 5.02% of the taxes and they'd be under-taxed. Personally I don't think it's a rational society design for half of our citizens to be expected to live in poverty, if for no other reason than it would create significant social unrest.

      Based on my analysis the bottom 50% of society are overtaxed on both a wealth share and income share basis.

    140. Re: I like... by siliconsmiley · · Score: 1

      Probably some of the cops. Not only should it be mandatory, but also broadcast online so the people can review their law enforcement officials. I would add all officers patrolling in vehicles should have GPS tracking info available so the people can monitor officers abusing the speed limit.

    141. Re:I like... by icebike · · Score: 1

      "Cops would have to release the entire video to the media, and the lawyers wouldn't let that happen."

      FOIA

      Blocking release would get extremely messy and federal.

      Crime scene Evidence on an open case.
      Checkmate.

      --
      Sig Battery depleted. Reverting to safe mode.
    142. Re:I like... by funwithBSD · · Score: 1

      You are kitchen sinking and mixing taxes.

      The discussion on Federal Income tax (federal tax burden in my OP) is not based on wealth but on income.
      State taxes tend to be less progressive, even here in California.

      AS for the calculation, you are not taking into account benefits such as SSI, Food Stamps, etc, that the poor receive as part of the redistribution of taxes.

      --
      Never answer an anonymous letter. - Yogi Berra
    143. Re:I like... by Gryle · · Score: 1

      "Ferguson was a town in which most of the population was black...One of the main sources of income for the town was stopping black motorists and giving them traffic tickets"

      Statistically speaking, it stands to reason that if a population is majority black the majority of ticketed individuals would be black. Unless you have evidence that blacks were routinely given higher fines for similar offenses committed by white people or that no whites were ever ticketed in Ferguson, your statement is a bit of a reach.

      --
      Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not entirely sure about the universe - Einstein
    144. Re:I like... by blue9steel · · Score: 1

      AS for the calculation, you are not taking into account benefits such as SSI, Food Stamps, etc, that the poor receive as part of the redistribution of taxes

      I'm not sure it's really appropriate to refer to everyone in the bottom 50% as "the poor", that seems overly broad, but the rest of your point has some merit.

      Government transfers are a bit tricky since they're given for a variety of different reasons, but lets assume the case most favorable for your argument, that they should all be figured in. Using the CBO data http://www.cbo.gov/sites/defau..., which is a bit harder since it's in quintiles, I integrated that into the equation. (This was quick math with approximate data but it should be close enough for this discussion) Given that scenario their profit is $39,362.20 and an appropriate tax burden would be 2.3% So even in the case where every government transfer should be taxable (which I don't think is true) their appropriate tax burden is still lower than what they're currently paying.

      Obviously before any real changes were made a much more detailed and accurate study would need to be made, but I stand by my original assertion that the bottom 50% don't pay an unfairly low rate of taxation. Oh, and before you start drawing all sorts of unwarranted assumptions about my politics I should mention I'm registered as a Libertarian.

    145. Re:I like... by nbauman · · Score: 2

      "Ferguson was a town in which most of the population was black...One of the main sources of income for the town was stopping black motorists and giving them traffic tickets"

      Statistically speaking, it stands to reason that if a population is majority black the majority of ticketed individuals would be black. Unless you have evidence that blacks were routinely given higher fines for similar offenses committed by white people or that no whites were ever ticketed in Ferguson, your statement is a bit of a reach.

      There are many news stories like this:

      http://www.npr.org/2014/08/25/...
      In Ferguson, Court Fines And Fees Fuel Anger
      August 25, 2014 5:56 PM ET

      To understand some of the distrust of police that has fueled protests in Ferguson, Mo., consider this: In 2013, the municipal court in Ferguson — a city of 21,135 people — for nonviolent offenses, mostly driving violations.

      A new report released the week after 18-year old Michael Brown was shot and killed in Ferguson helps explain why. ArchCity Defenders, a St. Louis-area public defender group, says in its that more than half the courts in St. Louis County engage in the "illegal and harmful practices" of charging high court fines and fees on nonviolent offenses like traffic violations — and then arresting people when they don't pay. The report singles out courts in three communities, including Ferguson.

      Thomas Harvey, who started the organization to provide legal services to the poor in the St. Louis region and is the lead author of the report, says residents, especially in Ferguson, have come to see the use of fines and fees as a way for courts to collect money from residents who are often the least able to pay.

      "Folks have the impression that this is a form of low-level harassment that isn't about public safety. It's about money," he says.

      The ArchCity Defenders report argues that this resentment is justified. Last year, Ferguson collected $2.6 million in court fines and fees. It was the city's second-biggest source of income of the $20 million it collected in revenues.

      People who can't pay their fines and fees go on payment plans. But then there are extra fees, sometimes interest — 12 percent on felonies in Washington state — and, if poor people fall behind on payments, they may go to jail. Courts often ignore laws, Supreme Court rulings and protections that outlaw the equivalent of debtors prisons.

      Just like around the U.S., these municipal court fines in Ferguson are for low-level offenses, usually traffic violations. Harvey calls these "poverty crimes." Typically, he says, someone gets stopped for a rolling stop at a stop sign, or for a broken tail light. Then police find other problems.

      Racial Disparity In Ferguson Traffic Stops

      Data from the Missouri state attorney general's office show that black drivers are stopped in Ferguson in disproportionate numbers, even though Ferguson police are more likely to find contraband when they stop white drivers.

      Blacks make up 67 percent of the city's population, but are 86 percent of motorists stopped by police. Whites make up 29 percent of the population, but 12.7 percent of vehicle stops.

      "However, this data seems at odds with the fact that searches of black individuals result in discovery of contraband only 21.7 percent of the time, while similar searches of whites produce contraband 34 percent of the time," the ArchCity Defenders report notes.

      Ebony says she's been arrested before after she didn't pay off all her fines — the last time just two weeks after she had given birth.

      "My son was 2 weeks old and I was under doctor's care, and Ferguson still locked me up and left me in jail for a week — over traffic tickets," she says. "Even when my lawyer was calling and saying that I'm under doctor's care, I just had a baby, and they still didn't care."

      Police and city officials in Ferguson didn't respond to our requests for an interview.

    146. Re:I like... by david_thornley · · Score: 1

      A plea bargain is a confession under duress, true, but if the court case would be less cut-and-dried there's less force in the duress. It would be a step in the right direction.

      --
      "When you have eliminated the unacceptable, whatever is left, however improbable, must be the truthiness" - Holmes
    147. Re:I like... by currently_awake · · Score: 1

      The NSA would love to have access to this, they could run facial recognition and search for people of interest nation wide. It would still be worth it though, just eliminating all the bogus lawsuits against the police would pay for this.

    148. Re:I like... by Wycliffe · · Score: 1

      No, a plea bargain is a forced confession under the duress of being threatened with being tried for extra charges that the prosecutor does not believe you can legitimately be convicted of.

      Yes, a plea bargain is basically:
                "you might get 5 years for this and 20 years for this and we'll try to pin these other 3 random things on you too so why
                    don't you just accept 3 years and save us both alot of time and money"
      but it still comes down to either what the police think they can pin on or what they can make you believe that they can pin on you in a trial.
      At the end of the day it's still both sides evaluating "what are my odds of winning and what do I get" vs "what are my odds of losing and what do I lose".
      If there is a video tape (or a missing video tape that should be there) then you have alot more negotiation power even in the pretrial
      and there's a good chance that if the video tape is missing or doesn't make the cop look good that they are going to quickly try to
      drop the charges or settle out of court.

    149. Re:I like... by funwithBSD · · Score: 1

      "I'm not sure it's really appropriate to refer to everyone in the bottom 50% as "the poor", that seems overly broad, but the rest of your point has some merit."

      Not what I said, nor does it violate the logic:
      Not everyone making less than $50000 is poor.
      All the poor make less than $50000

      Nor did I say they lower 50% did not pay their fair share, that was your assertion, and does not match with my stated Republican leanings that want to reduce taxes.

      I go back to my original post that we want to lower taxes, but are accused of only reducing taxes on the rich.

      To which I say that is technically true, as they are the only ones paying significant taxes, therefore any tax reduction that passes will impact the rich the most by definition.

      --
      Never answer an anonymous letter. - Yogi Berra
    150. Re:I like... by fuzzy2k · · Score: 1

      Of course it makes sense, and of course it is affordable, and of course the bottom line is, it is a good idea that ought to be enacted immediately.

      The question is, will someone exploit this for votes or control, by arguing that this is an enormous expense?

      If you have any more recall than a mango, then you know the answer is yes, and this will be passed in the Senate, if passed quickly, then a version will pass in the House, if any does, that negates it entirely.

      Starting next year, the GoP/Tea Party/"Libertarian"'s will start talking up how Obama and the Democrat Party have left the nation in jeopardy by failing to act on this much needed legislation, rolling their eyes and shaking their heads. And no reputable news organization (w/e TF that is these days) will remember why the legislation failed.

      --- Proud to be an American

      --
      --- Say something clever. Pretend it was me. Thanks.
    151. Re:I like... by Belial6 · · Score: 1

      While your description of the situation is correct, it doesn't change the fact that the police, prosecutors and judges are circumventing due process. Frequently threatening people with crimes that they know they did not commit in an attempt to get a confession under duress. The two descriptions of our legal system do not conflict.

    152. Re: I like... by BronsCon · · Score: 1

      Those problems are already solved for cameras in police vehicles. Apply the same solutions here.

      --
      APK quotes people (including myself) without context and should not be trusted. Just thought you should know.
    153. Re:I like... by silfen · · Score: 1

      The reason they have race riots, all over this country, is that people go through the whole process of polite complaints and peaceful demonstrations, and get nowhere.

      Polite complaints, peaceful demonstrations, and rioting is what you do in order to get handouts from a king or slave owner. We live in a democracy, and in a democracy, all those actions are meaningless. What matters in a democracy is voting, running for office, and convicing your fellow citizens.

      They riot because they found out that riots are the only thing that works. When they burn down the town, the white establishment finally pays attention.

      Oh, rioting certainly works for the Sharptons and Jacksons of the world: it furnishes them with money and power. For the people of Ferguson, it just means poverty and marginalization.

      If the people of Ferguson don't like their "white establishment", they can vote them out every couple of years. But apparently, they have been satisfied enough with their white establishment that they didn't bother to do so.

    154. Re:I like... by silfen · · Score: 1

      "Folks have the impression that this is a form of low-level harassment that isn't about public safety. It's about money," he says.

      Yes, and the voters of Ferguson could have changed this every local election if they had wanted to.

    155. Re:I like... by silfen · · Score: 1

      Cop cams are generally good. But what's the justification for making it a federal mandate?

    156. Re:I like... by nbauman · · Score: 1

      The reason they have race riots, all over this country, is that people go through the whole process of polite complaints and peaceful demonstrations, and get nowhere.

      Polite complaints, peaceful demonstrations, and rioting is what you do in order to get handouts from a king or slave owner. We live in a democracy, and in a democracy, all those actions are meaningless. What matters in a democracy is voting, running for office, and convicing your fellow citizens.

      They riot because they found out that riots are the only thing that works. When they burn down the town, the white establishment finally pays attention.

      Oh, rioting certainly works for the Sharptons and Jacksons of the world: it furnishes them with money and power. For the people of Ferguson, it just means poverty and marginalization.

      If the people of Ferguson don't like their "white establishment", they can vote them out every couple of years. But apparently, they have been satisfied enough with their white establishment that they didn't bother to do so.

      That's what they teach in high school civics classes. I can see that you have never actually tried that out with an unpopular cause in the real world.

      I can also see that your high school didn't teach you about the civil rights movement in the South during the 1960s. When black people tried to vote, they were turned away, and if they made too much trouble, they were killed. Southern racists had many clever ways of disqualifying blacks from voting, such as "Literacy tests," which they could claim were fair. If you're not literate, you can't vote, right?

      Now the racists have other ways of preventing black people from voting, such as requiring photo ID cards (where in the original text of the Constitution does it say that you have to show a photo ID to vote?), gerrymandered districts, and excluding people convicted of committing a crime, all of which sound reasonable until you look at the facts.

      Ferguson does have a low black voting rate, but that's because the white establishment uses these techniques to prevent them from voting.

      The fairy tale about the civil rights movement that we recite on Martin Luther King's birthday is that it was a nonviolent movement and they just marched and protested and registered voters until they finally won America over.

      The truth, as described for example in Howard Zinn's People's History of the United States, is that JFK just wanted the demonstrators to go away, after he gave them some token concessions. Zinn quotes the memoirs of Ted Sorenson, who was standing next to Kennedy during the civil rights demonstrations in Washington and during Kennedy's decisions on what to do about civil rights. It turns out that Malcom X was right. It turns out that JFK sided with MLK and the peaceful, nonviolent demonstrators, because Malcom X and the Black Panthers were getting popular and telling black people to get guns.

      And, if J. Edgar Hoover and the investigators of the Mississippi Un-American Activities Committee can be believed, another group that was contributed to the success of the civil rights movement was the Communist Party, who you probably dislike even more than Sharpton and Jackson. According to Sorenson, Kennedy was worried that the Communists were using the civil rights movement to embarass America among the black people in the world, and the Communists, along with Malcolm X and the Black Panthers, drove Kennedy to action.

      If you followed the history of the civil rights movement year by year, you'd see that politicians like JFK, and especially local politicians, were ignoring them, obstructing them, not letting them vote, and sometimes killing them. Progress usually came in response to riots. When black people started getting guns, the white establishment went frantic. As Huey Newton said, "Political power comes from the barrel of a gun."

      I think you should take a black studies course. And read Howard Zinn's A People's History of the United States.

    157. Re:I like... by silfen · · Score: 1

      That's what they teach in high school civics classes. I can see that you have never actually tried that out with an unpopular cause in the real world.

      Ferguson is 2/3 black. Whatever "black causes" there may be, they are the popular causes in Ferguson.

      More importantly, you are effectively suggesting that Ferguson be governed by having a predominantly white federal government impose policies in response to the demands of a small number of rioters, mostly from outside Ferguson. Whatever flaws local elections may have, your solution is clearly far worse.

      Ferguson does have a low black voting rate, but that's because the white establishment uses these techniques to prevent them from voting.

      You're pulling that out of your ass; there is no evidence whatsoever that Ferguson's black voters were in any way prevented from voting or running for office. If there were any such evidence, the federal government could have, should have, and likely would have stepped in long ago.

      Progress usually came in response to riots.

      What progress? Democrats themselves keep complaining of the "intractable" problems, "persistent" and "rising" racial and economic inequities. You can't have it both ways: either there has been substantial progress or there hasn't been.

      In fact, I think Democrats are right: these problems are persistent, intractable, rising, and serious. But given that we have had decades of progressive and civil rights legislation and enforcement, the conclusion has to be that this legislation is ineffective and likely actually the cause of some of these problems.

      Southern racists had many clever ways of disqualifying blacks from voting, such as "Literacy tests," which they could claim were fair.

      Again, you're fabricating your facts. The "literacy tests" were racist precisely because they weren't fair: they were administered predominantly to blacks and they were scored at the discretion of racist election officials who would let whites pass and blacks fail. In different words, objectively they weren't actually "literacy tests".

      Now the racists have other ways of preventing black people from voting, such as requiring photo ID cards

      Voter ID laws are favored by a majority of both whites and blacks. Voter ID laws do have a slight impact in that they hurt Democrats and help Republicans, but it's anybody's guess as to whether that's due to fraud or disparate impact based on social class; but there is no clear evidence that they have a disparate impact based on race. They are also the norm in pretty much all other democratic nations. Your accusations of racism just show again how far removed from reality your arguments are.

      The truth, as described for example in Howard Zinn's People's History of the United States

      Zinn's book is a great summary of the arguments and views of progressives and democratic socialists. And as such it was instrumental in turning me from a progressive into a conservative-leaning libertarian: unlike the vague handwaving from politicians and folks like you, one can check Zinn's sources and arguments, and they do not stand up to closer scrutiny. It's not that Zinn didn't have good intentions (progressives and democratic socialists are motivated by the best of intentions), it's that the means he advocated for achieving those intentions were ineffective and harmful, like progressive policies in general.

    158. Re:I like... by stoatwblr · · Score: 1

      Cases can't stay open forever and a declaratory judgement is straightforward.

  2. Will the cameras work? by mi · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Or will we one day hear, that, unfortunately, the cameras worn by the officers involved had "malfunctioned" at the most inopportune moment?

    (Pay no attention to the remains of chewing gum around the lenses.)

    --
    In Soviet Washington the swamp drains you.
    1. Re:Will the cameras work? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Interesting

      Add more, Body cam, gun cam, taser cam and pepper spray cam. If the officer is going to escalate force it must be documented. "Failure" of multiple filming devices at the same time is grounds for immediate arrest of the officer.

    2. Re:Will the cameras work? by jareth-0205 · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Or will we one day hear, that, unfortunately, the cameras worn by the officers involved had "malfunctioned" at the most inopportune moment?

      (Pay no attention to the remains of chewing gum around the lenses.)

      Indeed, but then it will immediately put suspicion on the police officer, whereas at the moment there is nothing other than their sayso about what happened. Since police testimony is often implicitly trusted by magistrates and juries, I would much rather there be a 'but what happened to your camera?' defence than not at all.

    3. Re:Will the cameras work? by ClioCJS · · Score: 1

      We already hear that almost daily anyway.

      --
      -Clio
      Karma: Bad (mostly from not giving a fuck)
      Blog: http://clintjcl.wordpress.com
    4. Re:Will the cameras work? by jellomizer · · Score: 1

      But he is innocent until proven guilty. So while his actions may be under suspicion, he isn't guilty of his misconduct due to lack of evidence.

      --
      If something is so important that you feel the need to post it on the internet... It probably isn't that important.
    5. Re:Will the cameras work? by MobyDisk · · Score: 1

      but then it will immediately put suspicion on the police officer

      It doesn't work that way today.

      There was an example of where a woman claimed she was raped by a police officer. The condom vanished from the evidence lock-up before trial. But the absence of evidence does not good for the woman. Even if it put suspicion on the police officer, that suspicion is not enough to prove rape.

      Similarly, there are cases where police car-mounted cameras fail. I don't think those usually work-out well for the defendant who claimed he was attacked just as the camera cut out.

    6. Re:Will the cameras work? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

      In countries where body cameras have been implemented, not only they work but also there is a noticable decrease in agressivity of both citizens and officers.

      Also, I fail to understand why your argument is relevant. If a policeman behaves violently, the citizen will ask for the footage, and if it becomes clear that the policeman tampered with the device he will be punished. Even if one more clever manages to do bad things and not be caught (which already happens everyday), why should that invalidate a concept that will be very useful in the vast majority of the cases?

    7. Re:Will the cameras work? by lazarusdishwasher · · Score: 1

      Why not add data retention and verification to the funding requirements, to ensure requested footage will be available. An automated system could also scan the footage for blackouts and flag it for review, if the stream is scanned live you can recall officers to get a replacement camera mid shift.

    8. Re:Will the cameras work? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      i have a possible solution.
      Cops that regularly have malfunctioning cameras, should be required to wear two so one acts as a backup. if they continue to have problems then they are assigned a partner that doesn't have a history of such issues. Presumably then you would have someone that can be trusted watching the corrupt cop.

    9. Re:Will the cameras work? by jareth-0205 · · Score: 2

      Sure, but the alternative of not having them at all is certainly not better. If there's that level of corruption (and I would believe there is) then cameras are going to help expose it.

    10. Re:Will the cameras work? by i+kan+reed · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Oh, but the evidence is there. There's witness testimony, and while circumstantial, missing footage at exactly the right moment could easily be represented as corroboration of the testimony.

      The defense would then have to come up with a narrative that sheds reasonable doubts on that interpretation.

      In a court of law, conspicuous absence of evidence tends to get a bit of attention.

    11. Re:Will the cameras work? by mi · · Score: 1

      Why not add data retention and verification to the funding requirements

      There will be nothing to "retain" nor "verify", if a cop wraps a piece of chewing gum around camera's lens and microphone hole for a few minutes...

      There will just be a string of "unexplained malfunctions" nationwide, which the manufacturers will be at a loss to explain...

      An automated system could also scan the footage for blackouts and flag it for review

      It may be possible to get it to work, yes, but it is going to be a lot harder, than the Senator realizes...

      --
      In Soviet Washington the swamp drains you.
    12. Re:Will the cameras work? by gurps_npc · · Score: 1

      I absolutely assure you that when that happens: 1) The charges against the person will be dismissed. 2) The fact that the camera malfunctioned will be used to increase the money the arrested person gets when they sue (and they will)

      --
      excitingthingstodo.blogspot.com
    13. Re:Will the cameras work? by rickb928 · · Score: 2

      It may be missed in this debate, but cameras should change the behavior of citizens also. If a moron is arrested, claims the usual 'brutality' defense, and is confronted with video that prejudices the judge or jury against them to the tune of some time in jail, perhaps they will stop short the next time and try not to pile on additional charges.,

      i'm not hopeful that morons will stop breaking the law, but they might stop being excessive idiots when the police are documenting their idiocy.

      Wishful thinking, maybe, but a chance to calm down the interaction is not a bad thing. Can't much make it worse.

      --
      deleting the extra space after periods so i can stay relevant, yeah.
    14. Re:Will the cameras work? by NatasRevol · · Score: 1

      Yeah, that's kind of the point of the whole discussion.

      --
      There are two types of people in the world: Those who crave closure
    15. Re:Will the cameras work? by Sarten-X · · Score: 1

      knowing the police departments they'll make up all sorts of bullshit requirements and end up spending $8500 per camera made by some police chiefs brother in laws company.

      Now, I don't own a GoPro, but last I heard, they were nearly indestructible inside their shatterproof sealed case. Unfortunately, without the bulky case, they're left rather vulnerable. A wearable camera is going to have to be comfortable and not interfere with movement, so it will likely need a different form factor.

      If the GoPro (or other COTS) offerings don't meet that one legitimate requirement for the job, then something else will have to be found. The search will have to include the other "bullshit" requirements that GoPro already meets: Shock resistance, operating temperature range, battery life, et cetera. For an established manufacturer, it will involve some engineering, but for a newcomer to the field, the engineering will be quite extensive and expensive, especially since that engineering cost is spread over relatively few units, whereas a consumer-oriented product like GoPro can expect a few million sales.

      Of course, understanding those many requirements, especially ones like "fits comfortably during officers' regular duties" requires a keen understanding of a police officer's life. Naturally, those who are already familiar with the use case will have an advantage in meeting those requirements satisfactorily. That means the best product will usually be designed by an established company who's built a good working relationship, or a newcomer already familiar with the needs, like a family member or friend.

      --
      You do not have a moral or legal right to do absolutely anything you want.
    16. Re:Will the cameras work? by jellomizer · · Score: 1

      All of witch can allow for alterations, intimating the witnesses, creating false confessions, etc...

      --
      If something is so important that you feel the need to post it on the internet... It probably isn't that important.
    17. Re:Will the cameras work? by i+kan+reed · · Score: 4, Insightful

      We're not asking for perfect. We're asking for better

    18. Re:Will the cameras work? by MobyDisk · · Score: 1

      agreed.

    19. Re:Will the cameras work? by aitikin · · Score: 1

      It may be missed in this debate, but cameras should change the behavior of citizens also. If a moron is arrested, claims the usual 'brutality' defense, and is confronted with video that prejudices the judge or jury against them to the tune of some time in jail, perhaps they will stop short the next time and try not to pile on additional charges.

      Well this point was made in the summary by the senator who wants this to be requiredso I doubt it's lost, just lost on /.

      --
      "Don't meddle in the affairs of a patent dragon, for thou art tasty and good with ketchup." ~ohcrapitssteve
    20. Re:Will the cameras work? by fafalone · · Score: 1

      Just like they get punished when their dashcams malfunction, right?

    21. Re:Will the cameras work? by Rich0 · · Score: 1

      There is a simple solution to this. When cameras fail, charges are dismissed against anybody who was arrested during the incident, and if anybody is injured the police department is presumed at fault and pays through the nose the greater of proven damages or a statutory fine of $10M. If the local township has to pay out $10M every time a camera fails, chances are that they'll figure out how to make the cameras not fail.

    22. Re:Will the cameras work? by sjames · · Score: 1

      Rule it destroyed evidence and therefor presumed to favor the other party.

    23. Re:Will the cameras work? by yodleboy · · Score: 1

      "We're not asking for perfect. We're asking for better"

      You must live under a rock... The mindset in the USA these days from local government all the way up to Federal level is that all solutions must be perfect solutions and make everyone happy. So...nothing really gets done. Some places do seem to buck this trend, but I see it more and more.

      This is what happens when "moderate" or "center" become dirty words. We're getting a nation of extremists that refuse to compromise. It's pathetic and embarrassing.

    24. Re:Will the cameras work? by jratcliffe · · Score: 1

      In countries where body cameras have been implemented, not only they work but also there is a noticable decrease in agressivity of both citizens and officers.

      Also, I fail to understand why your argument is relevant. If a policeman behaves violently, the citizen will ask for the footage, and if it becomes clear that the policeman tampered with the device he will be punished. Even if one more clever manages to do bad things and not be caught (which already happens everyday), why should that invalidate a concept that will be very useful in the vast majority of the cases?

      You know, it's the Slashdot standard: any solution which isn't completely perfect is automatically worthless (at best) or (usually) much worse than the status quo, and should be rejected.

    25. Re:Will the cameras work? by Belial6 · · Score: 2

      In fact, if you know any cops, and chat with them about it while off duty, they are pretty open about the fact that they don't arrest other cops. The ones I have known think that using the words "professional courtesy" means that they are not accessories to the crime.

    26. Re:Will the cameras work? by Belial6 · · Score: 1

      True. What would be even better is if we could get criminal cops' accomplices prosecuted due to these cameras. Currently, we have a system where the cost of enforcing the law on police carries a higher price for other police than abetting the criminal activities of their fellow officers. We need to turn that around and make the cost of abetting criminal activity to have a higher price than arresting a cop.

      The current situation is why I don't believe there are 'good' cops. Any cop that witnesses another cop breaking the law and does not enforce the law against him is an accomplice. Corruption is to wide spread for good cops to exist in our current environment.

    27. Re:Will the cameras work? by Minupla · · Score: 1

      Or discourage the abuse from occurring in the first place, which is even better.

      If the officer has to think "OK, I'm going to have to find a way to deal with the video camera" then maybe they don't do whatever it is that would require dealing with the camera.

      That would suit me fine.

      --
      On the whole, I find that I prefer Slashdot posts to twitter ones because I don't get limited to 140 chars before
    28. Re:Will the cameras work? by Dereck1701 · · Score: 1

      We don't have to wait for "one day", it happens quite often right now. I can recall at least a dozen cases off the top of my head where footage from dash cams, personal phones/computers/cameras & CCTV systems was deleted, obscured, modified or "failed to record". Unfortunately I can't recall a single case of an officer being meaningfully punished for destruction of evidence, at most a few were fired.

      http://www.today.com/id/322668...
      https://www.youtube.com/watch?...
      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/...
      http://www.dailytech.com/Cops+...

    29. Re:Will the cameras work? by MarkWegman · · Score: 1

      You may remember a famous 18 minute gap where the recording in the White House were inadvertently erased. That was perceived by pretty much the entire country as fairly good evidence that the president had done something impeachable. Erasing after the fact is going to be hard. Covering the lens beforehand will show as a pattern.

    30. Re:Will the cameras work? by u38cg · · Score: 1

      That has already happened in a number of places, including the London Met's trials, and is one of the main reason many rank and file officers are 100% in favour of cameras.

      --
      [FUCK BETA]
    31. Re:Will the cameras work? by david_thornley · · Score: 1

      The woman could sue the city or county or whatever the jurisdiction is. That only requires preponderance of the evidence (and a vanished condom is evidence). It isn't as good as being able to try the cop for rape, but it does put pressure on the local government.

      The situation of missing video has to be addressed on a wider level. If I were on a jury, I'd be very suspicious of missing video. If more and more people start thinking this way, that's good.

      --
      "When you have eliminated the unacceptable, whatever is left, however improbable, must be the truthiness" - Holmes
    32. Re:Will the cameras work? by BitZtream · · Score: 1

      Now, I don't own a GoPro, but last I heard, they were nearly indestructible inside their shatterproof sealed case.

      The only thing the case does is keep water and dirt out. A 5 foot drop will easily destroy a GoPro, and I know this as I have a friend with multiple videos of his GoPro being killed as it falls to the ground for various reasons in the case.

      They are pretty shitty cameras, their only advantage is that they are light and have ready made accessories, beyond that, if you really want to be rough, GoPro isn't the choice to make.

      --
      Persistent Volume manager for Kubernetes - https://github.com/dwimsey/openshift-pvmanager
    33. Re:Will the cameras work? by BitZtream · · Score: 1

      There will be nothing to "retain" nor "verify", if a cop wraps a piece of chewing gum around camera's lens and microphone hole for a few minutes...

      Other than the video showing the cop putting chewing gum on the lens ... and the video of the cop removing chewing come from the lens ...

      There will just be a string of "unexplained malfunctions" nationwide, which the manufacturers will be at a loss to explain...

      Except for the video mentioned above explaining what happened clearly ...

      It may be possible to get it to work, yes, but it is going to be a lot harder, than the Senator realizes...

      There are multiple OSS libraries that already are capable of detecting most of the ways the camera could be obscured, especially as something as trivial as the input going dark which you could do very simply, and basic motion detection would also catch it ... gee, the camera gyros show the camera is moving but the video isn't changing or is changing across all pixels fairly equally ... because its extremely blurred/obscured.

      Or Prosecuting Attorney: Officer, why do we have a video show you putting gum over the lense of your camera 5 minutes before this shooting occurred and taking it off 10 minutes after? Whats that? You're going to be found guilty of the crime you're charged with? Yes, we understand that, guess you shouldn't have obscured the camera eh?

      --
      Persistent Volume manager for Kubernetes - https://github.com/dwimsey/openshift-pvmanager
  3. The death of leniency by jerpyro · · Score: 5, Interesting

    The problem with this is that if all cops feel like they're being audited all of the time, they're less likely to let you off the hook for a minor violation. Then since they have to charge you with something, and there's supporting evidence, you're not going to get a plea or reduction from a mandatory sentence in court.

    I know that doesn't sound like a big deal but cops let thousands of people off per day on minor things where people just need a warning.

    1. Re:The death of leniency by TheRealSteveDallas · · Score: 4, Insightful

      They are also less likely to charge you with a bullshit charge they "discovered" having stopped you on sketchy grounds in the first place.

    2. Re:The death of leniency by ixl · · Score: 5, Insightful

      The US has a strong tradition of prosecutorial discretion. DAs decline to charge people all the time, in court, with a written record. Cameras wouldn't necessarily require the death of leniency, although I see your point that they might encourage it if cops decide to be stricter that as a form of protest. But who knows, that just might encourage people to repeal stupid laws *cough*non-violent possession*cough*.

    3. Re:The death of leniency by BellyJelly · · Score: 1

      The reputation of the police is so low now that they need to be audited, and this is lesser of the two evils. If you have broken the law and think you deserve leniency, then ask the judge when (s)he is about to sentence you (or during the plea bargaining process, if you are arrested in the US).

    4. Re:The death of leniency by StevenMaurer · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Police are given wide discretion by the courts. There is no reason to believe that anyone will be auditing them for failure to write up a citation.

      This is more to prevent them from beating the ever-loving-crap out of a black guy for driving in the wrong neighborhood. *Ahem* Sorry: "resisting arrest".

    5. Re:The death of leniency by OutLawSuit · · Score: 1

      How is this any different than dash cams on police cars? Police regularly give out warnings while being filmed without any repercussions.

    6. Re:The death of leniency by mi · · Score: 5, Insightful

      I know that doesn't sound like a big deal but cops let thousands of people off per day on minor things where people just need a warning.

      That may, actually, be a good thing — enforcing police objectivity by ending the selective enforcement (sometimes affectionately referred to as "Prosecutorial Discretion").

      Then, if a silly law affects too many people — including judges, mayors, and good-looking women, who would've all gotten off with a warning before — the law may get amended...

      --
      In Soviet Washington the swamp drains you.
    7. Re:The death of leniency by ClioCJS · · Score: 1

      I have a problem with you thinking this is a problem. What you are essentially saying is that making police accountable for bad deeds has a "dark side" of actual criminals actually being prosecuted for actual crimes. Ummm... That's a huge improvement to framed/scam crimes, which police charge people with EVERY day.

      --
      -Clio
      Karma: Bad (mostly from not giving a fuck)
      Blog: http://clintjcl.wordpress.com
    8. Re:The death of leniency by Mr+D+from+63 · · Score: 2

      Another consequences might include the reluctance of some citizens to talk to police about certain things or people, or just have a simple friendly conversation. Everyone will feel the need to apply the "lawyer filter" to everything they say. That won't help trust one bit.

    9. Re:The death of leniency by MobyDisk · · Score: 1

      This may sound odd, but that's actually a good thing. In short: If laws are enforced consistently, then bad laws are eventually removed. If laws are enforced selectively, they are used to punish those who don't have the political power to change them.

      Let me clarify: When laws are selectively enforced, it introduces the problem that the person doing the selection can "bias" that law. They can apply it to uncooperative people, or ugly people, or certain races, etc. So, for example, everyone speeds. But not everyone is pulled-over for speeding in a completely random distribution. Instead, the law targets the person in the sporty red car, or the one who looks like they might smoke weed, or the minority race. But if *every single person* got pulled-over for speeding every day, we would probably change the law!

      Criminal prosecutors cause this kind of problem a lot because they can selectively enforce laws. Wealthy people or businesses are often given a fine, while while an average individual will be given jail time. Or rather than going after everyone using insider information, they pick the high profile TV celebrity. The NSA and the phone companies have no consequence to violating wiretapping laws, but individuals are often frightened to record a phone conversation with tech support.

    10. Re:The death of leniency by Theaetetus · · Score: 4, Insightful

      The problem with this is that if all cops feel like they're being audited all of the time, they're less likely to let you off the hook for a minor violation. Then since they have to charge you with something, and there's supporting evidence, you're not going to get a plea or reduction from a mandatory sentence in court.

      I know that doesn't sound like a big deal but cops let thousands of people off per day on minor things where people just need a warning.

      Frankly, I'm a little less concerned with the "problem" of cops letting off people who do commit minor infractions, than the problem of cops falsifying evidence or destroying exculpatory evidence, beating or torturing suspects, and lying on police reports in order to arrest people who haven't committed any crime. You getting out of a speeding ticket for going 60 in a 55 is less important than Joe Innocent getting arrested for walking in the wrong part of town while black, having a gun with defaced serial numbers planted on him, and suddenly facing 10 year felony charge with an "option" to plead guilty and only get a year (and a felony record).

    11. Re:The death of leniency by Karl+Cocknozzle · · Score: 1

      The problem with this is that if all cops feel like they're being audited all of the time, they're less likely to let you off the hook for a minor violation. Then since they have to charge you with something, and there's supporting evidence, you're not going to get a plea or reduction from a mandatory sentence in court.

      I know that doesn't sound like a big deal but cops let thousands of people off per day on minor things where people just need a warning.

      Not remotely a foregone conclusion. It comes down to what the rules of the cameras actually are. If the footage goes to third parties and can only be reviewed in the case of an incident, "leniency" wouldn't be an "incident."

      Cops are already "audited all the time" by virtue of the fact that they radio in when they stop the car and get out with "I'm stopping the car to investigate X." If he doesn't show up with a prisoner, there is already an "audit point." The camera won't require the cop to "invent" a charge, but it would police him if he kills you in the course of an encounter because it would mean there was a "version of events" supplied by someone other than your murderer.

      --
      Who did what now?
    12. Re:The death of leniency by apraetor · · Score: 2

      Cops have the authority and discretion to issue verbal or written warnings instead of citations for moving violations, so video recording won't change that. For the rest, it would be quite expensive to have auditors watch over all the footage from each officer's shift; screening would either be random, or the video records could be kept unwatched unless a complaint or other legal matter requires the tape to be reviewed. Your arguments sound more like excuses not to do it than legitimate reasons. It might make getting away with minor crimes more difficult, but crime has a negative impact on society, whereas video documentation of policing has social value.

    13. Re:The death of leniency by NoImNotNineVolt · · Score: 4, Interesting

      The problem with this is that if all cops feel like they're being audited all of the time, they're less likely to let you off the hook for a minor violation

      This would be a great thing.

      I say that not because I have a stick up my ass, but because I recognize that selective enforcement is a huge problem in this society. The problem isn't that some people get away with some offenses. The problem is that it creates a society that is complacent with criminalization or prohibition of huge ranges of activities based on the understanding that cops will be reasonable people and will exercise good judgement to pursue only "the right" infractions. This is terrible for two reasons, primarily. The first reason why selective enforcement is terrible is because it allows for an absurd legal code. Harvey Silverglate's book "Three Felonies a Day" outlines how our current system ensures that virtually everyone is guilty of something. Selective enforcement is the only reason that 99% of our population is able to be free from prison at any given point in time. The elimination of selective enforcement would force a long-overdue overhaul of our legal code in order to avoid a 100% incarceration rate.

      The second reason why selective enforcement is terrible is because it affords law enforcement officials entirely too much power, power which is frequently abused. The problem is that cops are the ones that decide who gets away with what. Not only does that create a huge conflict of interest which prevents police from being able to police each other, but it also opens up other avenues of favoritism, encourages bribery, and overall corrupts our system of justice.

      If cops couldn't let thousands of people off per day on minor things, those minor things would cease to be illegal and our legal code would finally have some semblance of sanity.

      --
      Chuuch. Preach. Tabernacle.
    14. Re:The death of leniency by machineghost · · Score: 2

      But if *every single person* got pulled-over for speeding every day, we would probably change the law!

      Amen!

    15. Re:The death of leniency by jerpyro · · Score: 2

      That wasn't really my intent -- what I'm saying is that always having the cops on cam will take away their 'human' side and they'll just be encouraged more towards robot enforcers. I don't think it'll help much with planted evidence and framing -- those types of things will be done with some sort of coincidental leaving the camera in the car or disabling it or even having someone else commit the plant. There's an economy for those sorts of activities, and there will always be a price that someone is willing to pay.

    16. Re:The death of leniency by c · · Score: 1

      The problem with this is that if all cops feel like they're being audited all of the time, they're less likely to let you off the hook for a minor violation.

      I'd expect that any "audits" would typically occur in response to serious complaints.

      I'll grant that there *are* people out there stupid enough to formally complain about being treated with lenience (possibly the same people who call 911 to report the theft of their illegal drugs), but I can't see it happening often enough to be a major concern.

      --
      Log in or piss off.
    17. Re:The death of leniency by tysonedwards · · Score: 1

      You know that, and I know that, and 95% of the general public know that, and that's an extremely admirable trait and should be a requirement in it's own right. But does Senator Caskill know that?

      Her comment of "Everywhere I go people now have cameras. And police officers are now at a disadvantage, because someone can tape the last part of an encounter and not tape the first part of the encounter. And it gives the impression that the police officer has overreacted when they haven't." seems to indicate otherwise.

      It seems to indicate that the poor, defenseless disenfranchised police officers are the victims in all of this, and won't someone please think of *their* rights to be safe from the vindictive John Q. Public who seeks nothing more than harass those underpaid and under appreciated public servants who put their lives on the line ever single day?

      --
      Thirty four characters live here.
    18. Re:The death of leniency by dunkindave · · Score: 3, Insightful

      How is this any different than dash cams on police cars? Police regularly give out warnings while being filmed without any repercussions.

      In theory it is the same concept, but in practice it is very different.
      1. Dash cams are fixed and (usually) only see what is happening in front of the police car, which is normally on a public right-of-way and therefore where the public could also observe and record*. What happens elsewhere, like when an officer goes inside a private residence, isn't captured by dash cams. A body cam on the other hand would frequently be recording events that are not occurring where the public can see, and this is a significant difference for accountability. It should see what is happening in front of the officer (note, NOT necessarily what the officer is seeing since the officer could be looking to the side) which is where any action of interest is most likely to be.
      2. Dash cams use a system located in the car, typically the trunk, and can hold a large amount of high-quality video. Body cams will have stricter limits due to size and weight so may be much more limited on what they can capture.
      3. Dash cams are located inside the protected shell of the police car and, short of a crash, should not have frequent failures. Body cams on the other hand will be operating in a much more hostile environment (officer's opinion aside), being exposed to weather, physical trauma, getting material thrown on or over the lens, etc.

      We already have a problem of a high "failure" rate for dash cams, and I expect the same issue with body cams. Some here are advocating punishments to officers when a camera stops working, either directly or in how evidence is treated, but this would punish innocent officers whose cameras legitimately fail, since after all, they are operating in truly hostile environments. An officer whose camera seems to consistently fail, or where the officer seems to frequently "forget" to turn it on, are a different matter. We need a way of telling legit from illegit failures so we don't punish the innocent officers in our rush to punish guilty ones.

      * I don't know the current status of a couple states that have tried to make recording of officers in public a crime.

    19. Re:The death of leniency by ShanghaiBill · · Score: 1

      they're less likely to let you off the hook for a minor violation.

      Uniform application of justice would mean that middle class white people would be treated the same as black teenagers. That would be terrible, at least for people like me.

    20. Re:The death of leniency by jerpyro · · Score: 1

      then bad laws are eventually removed

      Not in time for peoples' lives to not be ruined. Those of us who grew up during the 'drug war' still have memories of that, and I'm sure there are people still incarcerated under the Rockefeller Laws

    21. Re:The death of leniency by nedlohs · · Score: 1

      Which is fine, since I can control those minor violations and they are by definition minor. Whereas a police officer having a bad day and deciding to falsely charge me with something not minor, like say resist arrest and assault police, is completely outside of my control.

      And of course using warnings is part of police procedure anyway and not something to be afraid of being audited about. Though if it makes the police officer think twice about giving all the white guys warnings while charging all the black guys for the same thing, that sounds like a plus.

    22. Re:The death of leniency by Em+Adespoton · · Score: 1

      They are also less likely to charge you with a bullshit charge they "discovered" having stopped you on sketchy grounds in the first place.

      Are you sure about that? There are always stock charges that a camera won't pick up, and they need to show evidence of why they stopped you in the first place. I'd guess that for every charge they drop, another one is probably added.

    23. Re:The death of leniency by Bing+Tsher+E · · Score: 1

      They are more likely to feel like they have to. Someone else is watching, after all, and it will come back on them if they don't strictly follow the rules.

    24. Re:The death of leniency by i+kan+reed · · Score: 1

      Of course that can't be helped, because sometimes the laws themselves are poorly written or out of date. The judicial is more subjective than the executive is more subjective than the legislative. By necessity. Because all sorts of real world complexities start flowing into the nice tidy neat(ha) laws that have been written.

    25. Re:The death of leniency by mi · · Score: 1

      because sometimes the laws themselves are poorly written or out of date

      Sure. But letting the cop decide, whether or not to enforce a particular law gives him too much power — the power, that he (a representative of Executive branch) is not supposed to have. And abuse that power they will.

      --
      In Soviet Washington the swamp drains you.
    26. Re:The death of leniency by Anonymice · · Score: 3, Insightful

      I dunno, to me it looks like tactical language so as to not aggravate the police force & automatically put them on the defensive. If you want someone to comply, you give them a reason to *want* to do it.
      If you tell people you want to restrict their freedoms so you have more control over them, they'll rebel. If you tell people that you're trying to protect them (think of the children!), they'll hand you their liberties without a second thought.

    27. Re:The death of leniency by Noishe · · Score: 1

      > will take away their 'human' side and they'll just be encouraged more towards robot enforcers.

      This is exactly how an officer should be enforcing the law. Every law applied equally to every person.

    28. Re:The death of leniency by ThatsNotPudding · · Score: 2

      I know that doesn't sound like a big deal but cops let thousands of people off per day on minor things where people just need a warning.

      Virtually none of them being young black men, which is the exact problem typifying US LEO since the Jim Crow days.

    29. Re:The death of leniency by i+kan+reed · · Score: 1

      Yes, but abuse of power is always going to a problem, no matter how much of a hardass you are about this specific issue. Pointlessly punishing people who are easily understood to have done nothing wrong is worse.

    30. Re:The death of leniency by Noishe · · Score: 2

      You're either racist, or bad at making jokes.

    31. Re:The death of leniency by geminidomino · · Score: 1

      what I'm saying is that always having the cops on cam will take away their 'human' side and they'll just be encouraged more towards robot enforcers.

      I think 40+ years of militarization and the "us vs them", "thin blue line" bullshit attitude have made plenty of headway in that regard already, so it's no great loss considering the trade-off.

    32. Re: The death of leniency by tysonedwards · · Score: 1

      And as a politician, it could safely go either way. She could either be adept at manipulating everyone for her own aspirations, or what you see could in fact be what you get... Without studying her particular voting record and speaking history, it is difficult to say for sure.

      --
      Thirty four characters live here.
    33. Re:The death of leniency by NoImNotNineVolt · · Score: 1

      You dumb fuck, do you even attempt to read the posts you're replying to?

      I specifically cited that book in my own post, you asshat.

      --
      Chuuch. Preach. Tabernacle.
    34. Re:The death of leniency by ndrw · · Score: 1

      This may sound odd, but that's actually a good thing. In short: If laws are enforced consistently, then bad laws are eventually removed. If laws are enforced selectively, they are used to punish those who don't have the political power to change them.

      Which is why tax rates on the wealthy are dropping, but not so much for everyone else. Those with the political power to get things changed, tend to make changes that favor themselves. Currently, financial power is strongly correlated with political power, ergo, the financially wealth pay less taxes.

    35. Re:The death of leniency by jerpyro · · Score: 1

      our legal code would finally have some semblance of sanity

      Not so long as there were lawyers who needed to make their billables and politicians in their pockets :P

    36. Re:The death of leniency by rickb928 · · Score: 1

      Lots of infractions do not reach the DA. Minor traffic infractions in particular. These are so 'routine' that there is virtually no due process available to a citizen any more.

      But cameras are not addressing running red lights or speeding. It's the violent confrontations these will be used for. Just as the courts 'don't have time' to process traffic stops properly, they will not be taking time to review video evidence either.

      --
      deleting the extra space after periods so i can stay relevant, yeah.
    37. Re:The death of leniency by Charliemopps · · Score: 1

      The problem with this is that if all cops feel like they're being audited all of the time, they're less likely to let you off the hook for a minor violation.

      And my other option is to have the cop shoot me 8 times, then when I fall on the ground walk over and double tap me in the head to make sure I don't get back up?

      Weighing the options here... hrm....

    38. Re:The death of leniency by swillden · · Score: 1

      Of course that can't be helped, because sometimes the laws themselves are poorly written or out of date.

      Of course it can be helped. Fix the laws. The application of the bad laws will motivate their correction.

      --
      Note to ACs: I usually delete AC replies without reading them. If you want to talk to me, log in.
    39. Re:The death of leniency by netsavior · · Score: 3, Insightful

      +1 to the parent. Selective enforcement blows.
      The saying goes: "If everyone is guilty of something, they can punish anyone for anything."

      Don't like someone's youtube channel? Find a video which has a poster of Tinkerbell in the background and get Disney to DMCA
      Don't like someone's racial background or religion, wait until they fail to stop 10 feet behind an intersection and give them a ticket. Search their car while you are at it
      I commit thousands of crimes a year, and so do you. That isn't a problem with me or you, or even law enforcement. The letter of the law is so screwed up that there is no possible way to root out corruption and discrimination.

    40. Re:The death of leniency by i+kan+reed · · Score: 1

      Except, what if that only means 2 bogus convictions a year?

      And just-world-hypothesis believing assholes just go on without thinking they must've deserved it.

      Because lemme tell you about American politics.

    41. Re:The death of leniency by mi · · Score: 1

      Yes, but abuse of power is always going to a problem

      It will be less of a problem if a stupid law is removed from the books. And it will not be for as long as the "upstanding citizens" (those, whom the police like or are afraid of) are not affected by it, because the cops never apply it to them.

      Pointlessly punishing people who are easily understood to have done nothing wrong is worse.

      The worst is when the pointless punishment is applied to a perfectly innocent person, who pissed the pig off doing something perfectly legal (such as video-taping him). There is no law against video-taping, so the cop may get creative and invoke something else... For example, if it happened in Wyoming in June, the cop may seize your camera on suspicion, a rabbit may have entered the frame — photographing rabbits during the month of June is illegal in Wyoming.

      By ensuring, that the ridiculous law is regularly applied to everyone — including cute little girls taking the perfectly adorable pictures of little bunnies — we increase the chances, the stupid law is promptly abolished and can no longer be used to harass innocent people.

      --
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    42. Re:The death of leniency by i+kan+reed · · Score: 1

      And your solution to this problem, is, of course, to jail people who took pictures of rabbits.

      Somehow... I don't think you thought this all the way through.

    43. Re:The death of leniency by Aaden42 · · Score: 1

      Good!

      The best way to fix a bad law is to enforce it stringently! If every silly little thing is referred for prosecution, it’s only a matter of time before a senator gets pulled over and gets a bill of charges as long as their arm for silly stuff that everyone does anyway. I’d expect amendments on deck fairly quickly thereafter when the cop can’t just let the senator off with a, “Sorry for the inconvenience, Sir.”

      Ultimately I’d rather pay a few extra traffic tickets if it makes it less likely that I’ll “have an accident” or just happen to get an entire can of pepper spray to the face when a cop doesn’t like my political position on something.

    44. Re:The death of leniency by jellomizer · · Score: 1

      There should be particular guide lines for police discretion.
      Broken lights, improper passing... Stuff in general where the person isn't really trying to do something criminal.
      Besides, do you really expect to increase your staff 100% to watch what everyone else is doing all the time. The recordings should be reserved for legal proceedings, not job evaluations.

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    45. Re:The death of leniency by jratcliffe · · Score: 1

      Well, for one data point, in Rialto, CA, where all officers now wear cameras, use of force declined 60% in the year after they introduced them, and citizen complaints against the police dropped 88%. Some of that 88% was almost certainly due to the 60% (i.e. less police use of force means fewer complaints), but a significant portion is likely due to people realizing that making a bogus claim won't hold up when there's camera evidence.

    46. Re:The death of leniency by KindMind · · Score: 1

      1. Dash cams are fixed and (usually) only see what is happening in front of the police car, which is normally on a public right-of-way and therefore where the public could also observe and record*. What happens elsewhere, like when an officer goes inside a private residence, isn't captured by dash cams. A body cam on the other hand would frequently be recording events that are not occurring where the public can see, and this is a significant difference for accountability. ...

      This is the aspect that worries me. Privacy goes out the window with body cams. Anyone close to the "suspect" can get caught up in the same video, whether they have anything to do with it or not. As the parent points out, dash cams are used in public places; but body cams would be able to go into private places.

      We know how well governmental bodies do with protecting private data (that is to say: poorly); imagine someone stealing a video about a controversial event, and there's your face in the video. You can get implicated by association, even though you just happened to be in the wrong place at the wrong time. Do you think your boss would be happy? Or your spouse?

      This is even worse if you are a public person, where there would be even more of an incentive to steal the videos.

      --
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    47. Re:The death of leniency by MobyDisk · · Score: 1

      I had not heard that the tax rate on the wealth is dropping. I did a quick google search for "United States Tax Rate Wealthy" and the first hit seems to be an informative WSJ article pointing out that the tax rate on the wealthy is increasing.

    48. Re:The death of leniency by Jason+Levine · · Score: 3, Insightful

      The camera video doesn't mean a constant audit. If a cop pulls you over for speeding and lets you go with a warning, his supervisor isn't going to be viewing that recording. If the cop pulls you over for speeding, drags you out of the car, beats you, and then claims that you pulled a gun on him, the supervisor (and possibly jury too) will view the recording and be able to tell whether the officer was correct in his actions.

      --
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    49. Re:The death of leniency by Jason+Levine · · Score: 2

      Except that this COULD help a police officer who has been wrongly accused. Take the Ferguson case, for example. Let's suppose that the officer had a body camera and it clearly showed the kid doing what the officer claimed he did. Perhaps people would agree with the officer and not be calling for his arrest. However, if the officer had a body camera and it showed the kid standing with his arms up while the cop opened fire, it would provide hard evidence of wrong doing. In other words, this could help exonerate good cops whose actions are misrepresented and bad cops whose actions might otherwise go unpunished thanks to them lying about the circumstances.

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    50. Re:The death of leniency by swillden · · Score: 1

      That's a problem. But it's a smaller problem than the one we live with now, which is that there are so many obscure laws that if anyone in a position of authority has it in for you they can find something to nail you for. The rule of law matters.

      And just-world-hypothesis believing assholes just go on without thinking they must've deserved it.

      What an idiot. You kan't reed.

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    51. Re:The death of leniency by ScentCone · · Score: 2

      It seems to indicate that the poor, defenseless disenfranchised police officers are the victims in all of this

      No, the victims are the residents and business owners in a trashed place like Ferguson where a bunch of idiots decided that wrecking the place is the right reaction to events like that lovable big lug, Mike Brown, being shot for no reason whatsoever. We know it was for no reason because thoroughly reliable witnesses (like, the guy who was within him when Lovable Big Mike, the 6'-4" 300-pound Gentle Giant was intimidating a retail clerk) said so, and the witness who said he was "shot in the back, execution style" said so. Except both witnesses are full of crap, and they know it. The cop who got his face mashed by this giant guy would indeed have had an easier time of it if Lovable Giant Mike's altercation with the cop inside the cruiser had been recorded. But more importantly, there's a chance that a lot of people's businesses wouldn't have been wrecked by people who came in from out of town specifically to trash the place and steal stuff with the tacit blessings of guys like Al Sharpton.

      --
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    52. Re:The death of leniency by jxander · · Score: 1

      Doubtful

      The vast majority of the footage would never actually be seen. Just cataloged and stored for however long the statue of limitations is. The stuff that gets watched will be in the event of an incident or complaint.

      I highly doubt many citizens will start complaining: "He let me off with a warning!! HOW DARE HE! Check the tapes, you'll see!"

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    53. Re:The death of leniency by mi · · Score: 1

      And your solution to this problem, is, of course, to jail people who took pictures of rabbits.

      If jailing is what the law prescribes for this offense, then everybody breaking it ought to be jailed — not just those, who pissed the policeman off doing something perfectly legal.

      --
      In Soviet Washington the swamp drains you.
    54. Re:The death of leniency by ScentCone · · Score: 1

      If cops couldn't let thousands of people off per day on minor things, those minor things would cease to be illegal and our legal code would finally have some semblance of sanity.

      You're right. If a cop sees you step outside the crosswalk at an intersection, he should have NO choice but to cite you for jaywalking, and generate all of the paperwork and costs involved, whether or not the reason you stepped out of the cross walk was to avoid walking through a big puddle of hydraulic fluid that was just spilled by a trash truck. It's situations like that where a cop's body cam might very well record such an infraction, and in the name of ridding society of any potentially abused judgement calls, we should use that technology to make sure that everyone involved toes the line, literally and figuratively. We can't have judgement calls! Your judgement call that we shouldn't is good enough for me.

      --
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    55. Re:The death of leniency by Belial6 · · Score: 1

      So, cops won't get to let the chick with big tits off on her speeding ticket because she showed him some nip? Good. The whole "police discretion" line is just the first step down the slippery slope of police corruption.

    56. Re:The death of leniency by Belial6 · · Score: 1

      No, his solution is to jail the first people who film rabbits and then have the law repealed due to it hitting someone who has the resources to call out the stupidity of the law, INSTEAD of having even more people jailed for filming rabbits because anyone with resources to fight the law getting a free pass from the cops.

      The question is whether someone will get jailed for photographing rabbits or not. It is a question of whether the police can use that law as a means of harrasing and abusing people for their own benefit.

    57. Re:The death of leniency by jzilla · · Score: 1

      yeah, i did read your post. I just put the link there for people who didn't want to look it up. keep on nerd raging

    58. Re:The death of leniency by Actually,+I+do+RTFA · · Score: 1

      Cops have the authority and discretion to issue verbal or written warnings instead of citations for moving violations, so video recording won't change that.

      And indeed, sometimes the requirement. For instance, in a state that shall remain nameless, the state patrol on drunk driving duty is supposed to pull over people who cannot stay between the lines. They don't bother citing the people who spilled soda in their lap, or were distracted, etc. It's not what their job is. But they do give a formal warning. That way, when their patrol is over, their sergeant can see they weren't asleep, or at a strip club.

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    59. Re:The death of leniency by Guest316 · · Score: 1

      I don't know the current status of a couple states that have tried to make recording of officers in public a crime.

      Illinois and Massachusetts. Both have had cases go to their highest state courts, which defended the right to video officers on duty under the First Amendment. In both states they tried to appeal to their respective US district courts, and both US courts agreed with the state ruling and refused to accept the appeals. As far as I know the laws still stand anyway.

    60. Re:The death of leniency by Guest316 · · Score: 1

      You do realize you're already being recorded on their dashcam any time you're pulled over, right?

    61. Re:The death of leniency by Copid · · Score: 1

      That's the point. The best way to get people to figure out how many bad laws there are is to actually enforce them for a little while. Right now, those laws are around for poor unlucky bastards who the law decides to make an example of. They're not an issue for the rest of us. But they're there hanging over everybody. Enforcing the laws as written mercilessly enough that a few senators' kids end up getting picked up might encourage us to prune things back somewhat. A little less law, a little more order.

      --
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    62. Re:The death of leniency by NoImNotNineVolt · · Score: 1

      It helps no one if there is a large discrepancy between the law and reality.

      If we, as a society, decide we want to prohibit all jaywalking (as we apparently have now), then we should have jaywalking statutes that reflect that (and we do).
      If we, as a society, decide that there should be exceptions to this statute, they ought to be codified in law, not left to law enforcement to judge.

      We want this, not this. As Cicero said, "We are all servants of the laws in order that we may be free."

      --
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    63. Re:The death of leniency by NoImNotNineVolt · · Score: 1

      My apologies, but you really could've worded that a little better. You came across as the kind of know-it-all that with great smugness repeats back what was just said in an absurd attempt to seem insightful. I apologize for my brusque response.

      --
      Chuuch. Preach. Tabernacle.
    64. Re:The death of leniency by squiggleslash · · Score: 1

      I think you've missed the GP's issue with MI's solution which is that inevitably the result of jailing people for photographing rabbits is that people who photograph rabbits end up getting jailed.

      That is, this "solution" has a hell of a lot of collateral damage. Entirely blameless people will get their lives turned upside down. Lots of people. Not one person who pissed off a policeman once in a blue-moon, but hundreds, may be thousands. These people will lose their jobs, have difficultly getting employment, may lose their home and worldly possessions, all because of they spend time in prison after violating a stupid law.

      Worse still, MI assumes that the law will get repealed, and you assume the law will get repealed quickly. Both are statements without supporting arguments. It is reasonable to assume that if the act of arresting people over something so blatantly stupid causes a public outcry, that is, if it garners widespread media coverage, then the law might get amended. But it's NOT clear that the enforcement will get that outcry, and in some ways, it's more likely to get the outcry if the law is abused than if it isn't.

      Outcry or not, the law will not be amended "quickly", because local and State governments do have a process for amending laws, do have an agenda they're trying to implement at the same time, and so are at best likely to take months to repeal an unpopular law. At worst, years, or never. If there's just one stupid law, then yeah, shortly before an election it's likely to be addressed. Dozens? Well, sure, shortly before an election one or two of those dozens, the one or two that the media is focusing on, will get repealed. Everything else? They may get repealed, if there's time, during the outcry itself. If the outcry dies down, then the law will get forgotten and continue to get enforced. It may even be that sympathy evaporates for the victims, as the lack of rationality of the law gets forgotten as the blame shifts to new victims for continuing to violate the law despite the fact everyone knows about it now because of the previous outcry.

      It's a very bad idea. Everyone, police, prosecutors, judges, and so on, needs to use their discretion and decide when it's a good idea to enforce something and when it isn't. We've already denied judges that discretion with mandatory sentencing laws, and that's not done us any good at all. How is denying prosecutors and police discretion going to help?

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    65. Re:The death of leniency by david_thornley · · Score: 1

      There'd have to be strict controls on the data. For example, what does an officer do when interviewing a rape victim? Have the camera on (I assume most rape victims really, really don't want their police interviews publicized) or have it off (and if one party attacks the other, it's the same old mess). We do have ways to keep track of the data that mostly work.

      --
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    66. Re:The death of leniency by david_thornley · · Score: 1

      My mother once got a warning instead of a ticket. She figured it was probably because she was an innocuous-looking white grandmother type, and she got indignant about it. I don't think she would have filed a complaint, though.

      --
      "When you have eliminated the unacceptable, whatever is left, however improbable, must be the truthiness" - Holmes
    67. Re:The death of leniency by Belial6 · · Score: 1

      By letting police and prosecutors decide when to enforce the law and when not to, you make them defacto judges. When their decisions carry penalties, they become defacto "executioners" (Yes, I put the word executioners in quotes because they do not actually kill you, but they do enact punishments including jail time and financial costs).

      When you have laws the get selectively enforced, innocent people are already getting punished. Worse yet, you are giving a criminal the tool to use that punishment for his own agenda. Selective enforcement means that the law isn't really a law, it is just an excuse to use the color of law to abuse citizens, and lives are already being ruined by stupid laws combined with selective enforcement.

      A big reason that we have so many stupid laws is due to selective enforcement.

    68. Re:The death of leniency by RyoShin · · Score: 1

      only "the right" infractions

      Not to mention "the right" people, especially in affluent areas where everyone's skin is pastel. Bobby Bucks can fly by a cop doing 100 in a 55 without the cop even blinking, but if someone who happens to have dark skin or Asian features meanders by at 58 then those lights go a-flashin'. Or a park is "closed" and a young couple happens to stroll through the middle and are ignored by a patrolman, who latter comes upon a haggard looking fellow sitting on a bench on the edge of the park and think he looks a bit suspicious...

      This gives a lot of people, especially white voters who rarely have to deal with attempts to make voting hard, a mental barrier so that when they hear about new laws/restrictions being put in place (if they even pay attention!) they can think "well that law will never apply to me" or "they wouldn't catch me doing it, and even if they did I'd probably just get a minor fine". By the time the law does seriously impact them, it's too late and they've become part of the "others" (perhaps simply by being caught up in the law) and lose much of the power they had to change things...

  4. Re:One correction by gcnaddict · · Score: 2

    I mean, that or just make it such that the case is dismissed if the device fails and no other hard evidence exists.

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  5. Every place that has implemented it has done great by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Fewer complaints against the cops, complaints get resolved quickly and fairly, fewer cases of cops using violence, they caught one copkiller because the cop he killed had filmed his face.

    It's been good for just about everyone, yet some cops keep resisting. I guess because they no longer get their 3 months paid vacation while complaints get kicked around by the unionistas before being summarily dismissed, replacing that with a day off while the tape is reviewed is a hard sell.

  6. Re:One correction by Richy_T · · Score: 1, Troll

    More federal intrusion into state matters? I'm in favor of the idea but Washington should f*** right off. They are welcome to introduce it for federal law enforcement, of course.

  7. Re:One correction by ixl · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Make evidence retrieved without camera coverage inadmissible, citations issued without camera coverage inadmissible, and so on.

  8. Re:One correction by alen · · Score: 5, Insightful

    and states are completely free to fund their own law enforcement needs without asking the fed for money

  9. Precedent, anyone? by CaptainDork · · Score: 1

    They already have dash cams that are used in evidence.

    I am uncomfortable about this idea, though. Think face recognition. Cops see a lot of iffy people daily. Also, If not handled right, it could awaken the probable cause issue.

    --
    It little behooves the best of us to comment on the rest of us.
    1. Re:Precedent, anyone? by ClioCJS · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Cops can already wear a camera and can already run facial recognition. You seem to be confusing the absence of this law as being equivalent to a prohibition of activities you do not like. It is not, and your logic is fallacious.

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    2. Re:Precedent, anyone? by apraetor · · Score: 1

      The positive aspect would be that cops, assuming their cameras stream to a computer doing facial recognition in real-time, could be alerted when they walk past someone with outstanding warrants. Cops in cities already make an effort to watch out for the most-wanted individuals -- if there is a warrant for your arrest you don't have a right to evade arrest, it just happens that cops are human and can't remember every mug shot they've been shown in briefings. This wouldn't be much different than hiring cops with eidetic memory, so I don't think you can argue it'd be a reduction of any rights.

    3. Re:Precedent, anyone? by CaptainDork · · Score: 1

      I can see your point.

      I have long recommended to law enforcement that vehicles have GPS units built in that are tied to VIN number.

      Doing so would, I think, just about stop auto theft. It would assist greatly with Amber alerts, reduce the need for high-speed chases, etc.

      The cops don't like it because it would apply to their personal vehicles and I haven't found one yet that agrees with me.

      I looked into this body camera thing more deeply and it looks like it will be happening. Guidelines have yet to be established, but that's just grunt work.

      --
      It little behooves the best of us to comment on the rest of us.
  10. Re:One correction by Richy_T · · Score: 1

    Fine. But the fed shouldn't be taking that money from states' residents in the first place. It's subversion of the constitution by the backdoor and should be stopped.

    The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people.

  11. The surveillance state by meta-monkey · · Score: 3, Interesting

    For once, a form of government surveillance I can support!

    --
    We don't have a state-run media we have a media-run state.
    1. Re:The surveillance state by Krishnoid · · Score: 2

      Are we sure about this? In the end, cops are individual people, and they're interacting one-on-one on the ground with people in their own community, most hopefully for the better, some for the worse. This looks like a step towards involuntary ubiquitous surveillance for the individual, civilian cop or regular civilian, while visibility into decisions and actions of larger organizations, those that affect large groups at once, is still hazy or completely unavailable:

      • basic text of US legislation before voting
      • lobbyist discussions with legislators
      • international agreements like the trans-pacific partnership
      • centralized government surveillance via NSA
    2. Re:The surveillance state by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      For once, a form of government surveillance I can support!

      If the police aren't doing anything wrong, what do they have to fear?

    3. Re:The surveillance state by ndrw · · Score: 1

      Government surveillance needs to include a significant component of surveillance of the government to protect the sovereignty of the people!

    4. Re:The surveillance state by shutdown+-p+now · · Score: 1

      The way cops are interacting with other people on the ground is remarkably different from the way everyone else is interacting (within legal boundaries), as it always have potential for extreme, sometimes lethal use of force that is not meaningfully prosecuted afterwards. It's that exceptionality that warrants the surveillance. The other alternative is that we take away the extra rights that police officers have wrt use of force, and apply the same rules that we do to private security guards and other citizens not in government employ.

  12. One step further by HeckRuler · · Score: 4, Insightful

    It's a good idea, don't get me wrong. It's about time we used this ubiquitous cheap technology in an obviously beneficial way. It's a good move, and one I support.

    But either after this comes about, or as part of the deal, the content of that camera needs to be stored offsite and specifically out of the reach of the police officer. Otherwise we're going to see a lot of data simply go missing at convenient times. To be frank, we can't trust police departments to hold onto evidence that could incriminate themselves.

    And any evidence that an officer tampered with their camera in an effort to suppress incriminating evidence should be dealt with exactly as if they had destroyed evidence. Because that's what it is.

    1. Re:One step further by Charliemopps · · Score: 3, Insightful

      It's a good idea, don't get me wrong. It's about time we used this ubiquitous cheap technology in an obviously beneficial way. It's a good move, and one I support.

      But either after this comes about, or as part of the deal, the content of that camera needs to be stored offsite and specifically out of the reach of the police officer. Otherwise we're going to see a lot of data simply go missing at convenient times. To be frank, we can't trust police departments to hold onto evidence that could incriminate themselves.

      And any evidence that an officer tampered with their camera in an effort to suppress incriminating evidence should be dealt with exactly as if they had destroyed evidence. Because that's what it is.

      Actually this is a real problem... so much so that in departments that have these cameras, many require the officer to write their report before being allowed to view the video. If they can see the video, they often end up crafting their report to fit the video of the incident while the victim/perpetrator doesn't have that advantage.

    2. Re:One step further by HeckRuler · · Score: 1

      Pft, if they seriously cross the line they'll arrest you, take your camera, and delete all the contents. Or just lose it all.

      The cops in my hometown of Omaha got in trouble when a third-party was recording their actions (being rough with someone in cuffs on the ground) who fled when they approached. They chased him into his home, arrested him, and confiscated his camera, which was then "lost". The only reason they got in any trouble at all is because a 4th party recorded it all from inside a building across the street.

      End result? 3 police fired, two of which with felony charges against them. Would any of that have happened without the 4th party's involvement?

      "Ordinary" people can't bust into the police's office, forcefully confiscate their cameras, destroy all the evidence, and then have a court rule in their favor when people complain. That's a special power that is reserved to the officers tasked with upholding the law.

  13. Federal vs. local decision (Re:I like...) by mi · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Though I don't think, this particular one is a bad idea, I am worried about the yet another illustration of how the Federal government's control reaches into the crooks and nannies it was never supposed to reach:

    If you want federal funding in your community, you've got to fill in the blank

    By ratcheting up the Federal taxes, the Federal government has come into position to dictate the terms to local governments, who can neither print money nor raise their taxes to finance themselves without bankrupting local economies. But don't you worry — it is not dictatorship, you can always refuse the federal monies, can you not?

    --
    In Soviet Washington the swamp drains you.
    1. Re:Federal vs. local decision (Re:I like...) by hsmith · · Score: 4, Informative

      Such lack of history.

      Look into why the drinking age was raised to 21 nation wide: Failure to comply cut highway funding. It was blackmail.

      So, stick the shitty memes elsewhere.

    2. Re:Federal vs. local decision (Re:I like...) by letherial · · Score: 1

      I think his argument is rather horrible, that being said...your statement isn't any better, how do you know he is a liberal? even if he is, what does it matter? there is no liberal collective consciousness that makes them all alike, also, last i checked its still a country where you have the freedom to choose your own beliefs...or do you want to get rid of that?

      Im not saying what he said was right, what i am saying is how you responded to it is equally wrong.

    3. Re:Federal vs. local decision (Re:I like...) by Prien715 · · Score: 4, Insightful

      The federal government has acted as a check on the tyranny of state governments -- who traditionally disenfranchised minorities through institutions like slavery, Jim Crow Laws, separate inferior education, and police brutality -- which is precisely the case here.

      Yet again, we trot out the state rights libertarians adrift of any irony that they in fact they thought black folk were property -- and owned them. I'm not saying Madison and Jefferson weren't brilliant -- but you shouldn't ask them about oppression for the same reason we don't ask Michael Vick about animal rights.

      --
      -- Political fascism requires a Fuhrer.
    4. Re:Federal vs. local decision (Re:I like...) by rickb928 · · Score: 1, Troll

      You have not been paying attention. Must be Democrat.

      --
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    5. Re:Federal vs. local decision (Re:I like...) by towermac · · Score: 2

      If you want federal funding in your community, you've got to fill in the blank

      Yep.

      I think it was Montana that once tried to refuse the federal money over the speed limit (not many here have driven a Montana highway at 55).

      I don't think they can even refuse the money..

    6. Re:Federal vs. local decision (Re:I like...) by mi · · Score: 1

      The federal government has acted as a check on the tyranny of state governments [...]

      None of the abuses you listed were fought with the "federal subsidies" method I am decrying.

      The method was used instead to abolish the "tyranny" of drinking age being to low, or legal speeds being too high — for just a few examples...

      not saying Madison and Jefferson weren't brilliant -- but you shouldn't ask them about oppression

      I am not talking about oppression of individuals here — nor have I invoked the names you are invoking, my argument stands on its own, thank you very much — I'm talking about the Federal government bullying local ones.

      --
      In Soviet Washington the swamp drains you.
    7. Re:Federal vs. local decision (Re:I like...) by VTBlue · · Score: 1

      US Federal government is never revenue constrained. Federal taxes are not for the purposes of revenue. Ricardian equivalence doesn't apply to federal spending. The fact that current politician believe that federal appropriations need to be "paid" speaks to their ignorance. While I hate to say it, Dick Cheney was right, "deficits don't matter."

    8. Re:Federal vs. local decision (Re:I like...) by mi · · Score: 1

      Congress has been using the power of the purse to bully states into compliance virtually since the Union began

      No citations — no argument.

      the proposal of forcing cops to wear cameras is a solid and popular one

      If it is so solid and popular, why not leave it to the communities themselves to equip their police departments as they please? Because the elites in Washington "know better" than the rest of us in the boondocks?

      So then why raise the ideological issue here and now?

      How about because "the injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere"?

      Would you really be happier if the feds didn't use the power they have

      I would've been (much) happier, if the feds did not have this power at all. And that's my point.

      This power is very dangerous — by raising taxes and providing this and that "for free" in return, the governments are able to attach all sorts of "strings" to their help. And not all of these requirements are sensible or universally loved — had they been, there would've been no need to mandate them...

      --
      In Soviet Washington the swamp drains you.
    9. Re:Federal vs. local decision (Re:I like...) by rgbatduke · · Score: 1

      And probably non-constitutional, if any state had had the pills to take it to the Supreme Court. I seem to remember this bit about separation of powers, and tying it to special treatment of states in the disbursement of commonly raised tax money is openly, transparently, an attempt to circumvent that bit and hide the fact that it is basically passing a federal law that applies to a domain reserved to the states. And while I think the camera is a good idea as well, and only the tip of the iceberg of electronics needed to safeguard civil liberties (just think of doing precisely the same thing within the prison system) I don't at all like the idea of illegal arm-twisting a state compliance through the threat of differential access to federal funds. The states are not constitutionally bound to do what the federal government wants them to do on states rights issues in order to be eligible for federal funds returned to the states on an absolutely equal basis.

      Of course, this is only one of many, many places where the federal government exceeds its mandate both in the collection of taxes and the return of those taxes to the states in a substantially inequitable way. We should either scrap this part of the constitution and eliminate states altogether or else do some pretty serious cleanup to try to put Our Government in some vague approximation of compliance with both the letter of and the clear intent of the founding fathers in the constitution.

      rgb

      --
      Even when the experts all agree, they may well be mistaken. --- Bertrand Russell.
    10. Re:Federal vs. local decision (Re:I like...) by swillden · · Score: 4, Insightful

      The federal government has acted as a check on the tyranny of state governments

      Utter red herring.

      The tyrannies to which you refer were fought by amending the federal constitution and enacting appropriate federal laws to curb the abuses. That's a Good Thing, both the process and the outcome. But it has nothing to do with mi's point. The things the federal government manipulates through funding are things that it has no authority to control, and for which there is no national political will sufficient to give the government that control. Hence this back door method.

      If cop cameras are sufficiently important that the federal government should mandate them, then Congress should pass a law mandating them. If the courts knock the law down as unconstitutional (as they would), then we should amend the constitution to give the federal government the authority required. This sneaky backdoor manipulation of state policy via federal funding, though... it's a tool that has no essential limits and no constitutional controls. It's a bad idea, and we should stop it.

      --
      Note to ACs: I usually delete AC replies without reading them. If you want to talk to me, log in.
    11. Re:Federal vs. local decision (Re:I like...) by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Yet again, we trot out the state rights libertarians adrift of any irony that they in fact they thought black folk were property -- and owned them. I'm not saying Madison and Jefferson weren't brilliant -- but you shouldn't ask them about oppression for the same reason we don't ask Michael Vick about animal rights.

      And yet, every law limiting and attempting to eliminate slavery in the early days of the country (and even before we were a country) was written by Jefferson. Shortly before Jefferson died, he reflected on the fact that their "grand experiment" would fail, because no country which allowed slavery to exist could succeed. When Lincoln signed the Emancipation Proclamation, he said "I am finishing the work Jefferson started." I am sure you understand the situation better than he did, though, being such a hip young thing who just knows that making completely uninformed statements maligning those who made it possible for you to spew such drivel without consequence shows how very clever you are.

      For you and all the idiots out there like you (and God don't there seem to be a lot of you these days): the situation was never as black and white as you believe (pun unintended, believe it or not), which you'd know if you actually bothered to learn about it. I know you won't, though, for it will slaughter your sacred cow, and you'd have to find some other target for your smugly self-satisfied ignorance.

    12. Re:Federal vs. local decision (Re:I like...) by Prien715 · · Score: 1

      I am not talking about oppression of individuals here — nor have I invoked the names you are invoking

      The idea behind the police cameras is to prevent police brutality -- and I'm assuming you have no idea who wrote the 10th Amendment (the only thing you cited?) Is it to far afield to invoke the author's prejudices when dealing with the amendment?

      I'm sorry if I don't put drinking age and speeding in the same category as "enslavement" viz. tyranny -- but I don't think you do either.

      --
      -- Political fascism requires a Fuhrer.
    13. Re:Federal vs. local decision (Re:I like...) by mrex · · Score: 2

      No citations — no argument.

      You need citations for Congressional use of the "power of the purse"? Really? Are you some sort of tabula rasa of American history? How basic do we need to get here? Do you understand what the Constitution is? Three branches?

      If it is so solid and popular, why not leave it to the communities themselves to equip their police departments as they please?

      Because communities are often not as in charge of their police departments as they should be or think they are, because some move more slowly than others, and because this is an important enough issue due to recent events that it warrants quick and decisive movement.

      How about because "the injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere"?

      Where's the injustice here? The system is operating as it is supposed to - Congress has the power of the purse.

      I would've been (much) happier, if the feds did not have this power at all. And that's my point.

      Fine, but why bring that up here, then? It's basically off-topic. It's like picketing a Cincinnatti Reds game because you don't like the color fuchsia. If you want to debate whether or not Congress should have the power of the purse, fine with me, but this isn't at all the place for that debate.

    14. Re:Federal vs. local decision (Re:I like...) by mi · · Score: 1

      Is it to far afield to invoke the author's prejudices when dealing with the amendment?

      Again, I was referring to the States' (and towns') rights being diminished by the Federal government. Not those of the individuals. So, yes, it is "too far afield".

      I'm sorry if I don't put drinking age and speeding in the same category as "enslavement" viz. tyranny -- but I don't think you do either.

      It is not in the same category, but that does not diminish my argument: the Feds should not have this power over local governments. The monies they dispense as subsidies are not theirs to attach strings to...

      --
      In Soviet Washington the swamp drains you.
    15. Re:Federal vs. local decision (Re:I like...) by digsbo · · Score: 3, Insightful

      You're cherry-picking information to attack libertarians, and your argument is flawed. Perhaps you forgot about the Japanese during WWII, or maybe the fact that state nullification of Federal laws was first used to protect people being pursued under the Fugitive Slave Act.

      Or maybe the racist federal war on drugs: "Since the 1980s, federal penalties for crack were 100 times harsher than those for powder cocaine, with African Americans disproportionately sentenced to much lengthier terms.".

    16. Re:Federal vs. local decision (Re:I like...) by funwithBSD · · Score: 1

      You must be joking. Google 55mph.
      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/N...

      The Emergency Highway Energy Conservation Act was a bill in the U.S. Congress that enacted the National Maximum Speed Law.[10] States had to agree to the limit if they desired to receive federal funding for highway repair. The uniform speed limit was signed into law by President Nixon on January 2, 1974, and became effective 60 days later,[11] by requiring the limit as a condition of each state receiving highway funds, a use of the Commerce Clause of the United States Constitution.[12]

      --
      Never answer an anonymous letter. - Yogi Berra
    17. Re:Federal vs. local decision (Re:I like...) by mi · · Score: 1

      You need citations for Congressional use of the "power of the purse"? Really?

      Here in the United States, the term Power of the Purse refers to relationship between Legislative and Executive branches of the same government.

      The relationship discussed in this sub-thread is between different governments: Federal vs. local ones...

      Because communities are often not as in charge of their police departments as they should be or think they are

      In other words, you do think, Washington "knows better" than the local doofuses . Right... Why, I wonder, even bother with elections there — instead of letting the sophisticated Washingtonian nobility appoint one of their own...

      Where's the injustice here?

      Your granpa can demand you do something in exchange for his contribution to your pocket money — that's Ok, because it is his money... On contrast, the monies the Feds disburse as subsidies are not theirs to attach strings to. They use this method to get around the 10th Amendment — and I consider it unjust.

      Congress has the power of the purse.

      Only over President... This was, indeed, part of the "checks-and-balances" from day one. Congress was never supposed to have the same power over States and towns however. And — contrary to your earlier assertion — did not have it, until Federal taxes grew up so much...

      --
      In Soviet Washington the swamp drains you.
    18. Re:Federal vs. local decision (Re:I like...) by mi · · Score: 1

      requiring the limit as a condition of each state receiving highway funds

      Thank you for providing an example of the abuse of power I too am decrying.

      --
      In Soviet Washington the swamp drains you.
    19. Re:Federal vs. local decision (Re:I like...) by funwithBSD · · Score: 1

      That is an odd argument. If you suppress a state right, you oppress all the citizens of that state.

      --
      Never answer an anonymous letter. - Yogi Berra
    20. Re:Federal vs. local decision (Re:I like...) by WrongMonkey · · Score: 1

      It was taken to the Supreme Court and upheld 7-2. South Dakota V. Dole

    21. Re:Federal vs. local decision (Re:I like...) by frinkster · · Score: 1

      And probably non-constitutional, if any state had had the pills to take it to the Supreme Court.

      *cough* South Dakota *cough* They lost. It's constitutional. And in the recent Obamacare court cases, John Roberts brought it up as an example of something the government was allowed to do.

    22. Re:Federal vs. local decision (Re:I like...) by blue9steel · · Score: 1

      While I hate to say it, Dick Cheney was right, "deficits don't matter."

      Well, he was half right. Deficits don't matter as long as they're smaller than GDP growth after adjusting for the trade imbalance and any change in savings preferences.

      (S – I) = (G – T) + (X – M)

    23. Re:Federal vs. local decision (Re:I like...) by rgbatduke · · Score: 1

      Ahhh, then all is chaos. Things fall apart; the center cannot hold. Mere anarchy is loosed upon the world.

      --
      Even when the experts all agree, they may well be mistaken. --- Bertrand Russell.
    24. Re:Federal vs. local decision (Re:I like...) by mvdwege · · Score: 1

      the injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere

      That's not the winning argument you think it is. Even across the Atlantic I know enough of US Constitutional history and law to know that this is in fact a driver for expanding Federal power. The prime example? Fourteenth Amendment.

      I agree with mrex here: you show an abominably bad understanding of US history.

      --
      "I know I will be modded down for this": where's the option '-1, Asking for it'?
    25. Re:Federal vs. local decision (Re:I like...) by VTBlue · · Score: 1

      I was implying the MMT sectoral balance equation. But for clarity.

      For the US we are likely to be a net importer for decades to come short of china and India blowing up.

    26. Re:Federal vs. local decision (Re:I like...) by timeOday · · Score: 1

      the Federal government's control reaches into the crooks and nannies it was never supposed to reach

      "Supposed" by whom? Some long-dead people?

      I do think there is some misalignment between laws as written vs. current practice. But you should realize that bringing them together would most certainly result in more changes to the law, than to how they are practiced. For example, Social Security may or may not be particularly Constitutional, but it will get written into the Constitution long before it will be repealed. Most people want it.

    27. Re:Federal vs. local decision (Re:I like...) by tanderson92 · · Score: 1

      You need citations for Congressional use of the "power of the purse"? Really?

      Here in the United States, the term Power of the Purse refers to relationship between Legislative and Executive branches of the same government.

      The relationship discussed in this sub-thread is between different governments: Federal vs. local ones...

      An excellent example is that of the federally mandated minimum drinking age: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/N...

      Briefly, Congress threatened to cut specific funding to states unless they followed the federal government's leadership in setting the drinking age at 21. This despite Congress having no direct authority in the Constitution to make the states obey them. It's a pretty clear-cut case of federal overreach.

    28. Re:Federal vs. local decision (Re:I like...) by dcollins117 · · Score: 1

      IIRC, Texas has similar middle-fingers pointed at the feds.

      Texas has drive through liquor stores/beer barns so you can literally replenish your alcohol inventory without ever leaving the vehicle. Which really comes in handy when you're just too drunk to walk.

    29. Re:Federal vs. local decision (Re:I like...) by Jane+Q.+Public · · Score: 1

      That's not the winning argument you think it is. Even across the Atlantic I know enough of US Constitutional history and law to know that this is in fact a driver for expanding Federal power. The prime example? Fourteenth Amendment.

      I agree with mrex here: you show an abominably bad understanding of US history.

      I don't think you're disagreeing as much as you seem to think you are. What mi was saying was that the Federal government is guilty of vast overreach, using the Commerce Clause as a thin "justification". He was saying that it is an expansion of power. But he was going further and saying that in most cases it actually is unconstitutional expansion.

      Interstate highways are not a great example, because they are by their nature interstate and so the Commerce Clause indisputably applies. And a lot of people don't seem to remember that they're actually called "Interstate Transportation and Defense Highways". The defense part is no small part.

      BUT... I think we all agree that this still didn't justify the Federal government effectively holding tax money hostage until the states agreed to their extortion and mandated speed limits throughout the country (except for Montana, at least for a long time). Most highways are actually not Interstates, and the Federal government has no real jurisdiction there. It was extortion plain and simple. And I have a problem with the Federal government using my money to extort taxpayers.

    30. Re:Federal vs. local decision (Re:I like...) by Yakasha · · Score: 1

      And probably non-constitutional, if any state had had the pills to take it to the Supreme Court. I seem to remember this bit about separation of powers, and tying it to special treatment of states in the disbursement of commonly raised tax money is openly, transparently, an attempt to circumvent that bit and hide the fact that it is basically passing a federal law that applies to a domain reserved to the states.

      Blame the fools that voted to end their own suffrage (17th Amendment).
      Worst. Foresight. Ever.

    31. Re:Federal vs. local decision (Re:I like...) by shutdown+-p+now · · Score: 1

      Given that Federal government is the one that pours millions of dollars into local police departments to buy all those MRAPs etc in the first place, this particular case sounds like it's totally warranted to me. The states basically have a choice between not using federal money to militarize their local law enforcement agencies, or if they do, to make sure that this is not abused the way it was in Ferguson. What's wrong with that?

    32. Re:Federal vs. local decision (Re:I like...) by cduffy · · Score: 1

      ...and Texas also has silly blue laws, so liquor stores are all closed on Sunday, and armed TABC agents rough up customers at locations accused of violations.

      I rather prefer the liquor laws in Chicago -- if ever there was a city that learned its lessons from Prohibition...

    33. Re:Federal vs. local decision (Re:I like...) by wiredlogic · · Score: 1

      Nobody is making the states take the federal blackmail. Let's see some red states with tea partiers in control demonstrate their faith in less government by willingly cutting off the gravy train of federal funds. The best we've seen so far is the states that passed up the extra federal Medicaid support to avoid implementing ACA.

      --
      I am becoming gerund, destroyer of verbs.
    34. Re:Federal vs. local decision (Re:I like...) by mvdwege · · Score: 1

      Speak for yourself. I don't agree with idiot libertards. If they tell me the sun is shining, I go outside to check.

      And no, I'm not going to discuss this with you. I've seen your posts, you're one of the most dogmatic of the lot, almost as bad as roman_mir.

      --
      "I know I will be modded down for this": where's the option '-1, Asking for it'?
    35. Re:Federal vs. local decision (Re:I like...) by dywolf · · Score: 1

      if they had left all decisions up to the states, half the states would still have slavery, and in the other half women and blacks still wouldn't be able to vote.

      --
      The guy who said the election was rigged won the presidency with the second-most votes.
    36. Re:Federal vs. local decision (Re:I like...) by dywolf · · Score: 1

      it has everything to do with it. they didnt JUST pass amendments and laws.
      they then had to back up those laws with the threat of force many, many times because the states refused to to do it.

      --
      The guy who said the election was rigged won the presidency with the second-most votes.
    37. Re:Federal vs. local decision (Re:I like...) by Actually,+I+do+RTFA · · Score: 1

      I am worried about the yet another illustration of how the Federal government's control reaches into the crooks and nannies it was never supposed to reach.

      But that's just an appeal to authority. I will grant, for the sake of argument, that it is working around the intent of the 10th amendment. I just don't see why I should care. I mean, the 10th amendment made sense when slavery was an sometimes (someplaces) thing; when it took forever to cross a state boundary, and the idea of traversing three states in the course of commuting would be a fanciful idea.

      On a second point, I'd further content that cameras on cops are a rights issue - and are fully under the purview of the feds under Amendment 14

      --
      Your ad here. Ask me how!
    38. Re:Federal vs. local decision (Re:I like...) by Jane+Q.+Public · · Score: 1

      I see. It was I who misunderstood what you were saying.

      Example of this "dogma" you claim?

    39. Re:Federal vs. local decision (Re:I like...) by swillden · · Score: 1

      it has everything to do with it. they didnt JUST pass amendments and laws. they then had to back up those laws with the threat of force many, many times because the states refused to to do it.

      True, but still an utter red herring.

      --
      Note to ACs: I usually delete AC replies without reading them. If you want to talk to me, log in.
    40. Re:Federal vs. local decision (Re:I like...) by swillden · · Score: 1

      Why is this sneaky? Being very clear and saying..."If you want YOUR money back, we expect this to be done" is perfectly acceptable.

      FTFY.

      --
      Note to ACs: I usually delete AC replies without reading them. If you want to talk to me, log in.
    41. Re:Federal vs. local decision (Re:I like...) by BitZtream · · Score: 1

      Brew thrus rock!

      --
      Persistent Volume manager for Kubernetes - https://github.com/dwimsey/openshift-pvmanager
    42. Re:Federal vs. local decision (Re:I like...) by dywolf · · Score: 1

      Then I must conclude that you don't know the meaning of the phrase.
      Good day.

      --
      The guy who said the election was rigged won the presidency with the second-most votes.
    43. Re:Federal vs. local decision (Re:I like...) by silfen · · Score: 1

      There's no associated diminution of civil liberties, and clear and enormous benefit in the goal of advancing the cause of justice.

      I like the idea of police wearing cameras, but you're jumping to conclusions by assuming that it has a "clear and enormous benefit". Nobody knows what the long term consequences are or how this technology may be abused. We don't know whether this is the right choice for every single community in the US either. We don't know what this law is going to look like after police lobbies are through with it.

      And objecting to the specifics of this proposal is inane - the proposal of forcing cops to wear cameras is a solid and popular one.

      Just because something seems like a good idea to a lot of people doesn't mean it should become federal law. Something should become federal law only if it cannot be implemented at the local or state level. Can voters decide locally that their police should carry cameras? Yes, they can. Hence, no need or justification for a federal law. If the federal government wants to help, it can offer funding to demonstrably poor communities.

    44. Re:Federal vs. local decision (Re:I like...) by silfen · · Score: 1

      The idea behind the police cameras is to prevent police brutality

      There are about 400 killings by police in the US per year, not a large number to begin with. Almost all of them are found to have been justifiable in a court of law. There is no evidence of significant racial bias in those statistics (i.e., the people getting shot are representative of the relevant population of perpetrators and suspects). There is no evidence of the kind of breakdowns in local and state government that would require the federal government to step in.

      Preventing police brutality isn't the job of the federal government, it is only the job of the federal government if democratic mechanisms have clearly broken down at the local and state level and can't handle that. Is there any evidence for that? No. Hence, not a job for the federal government.

    45. Re:Federal vs. local decision (Re:I like...) by silfen · · Score: 1

      Because communities are often not as in charge of their police departments as they should be or think they are, because some move more slowly than others,.

      That's nonsense. Cities are fully in charge of their police departments: they can limit the use of force, pass laws, hire and fire, even get rid of them. And if the "move slowly", that's their right. They may well have other, more important issues than body cams on their minds.

      and because this is an important enough issue due to recent events that it warrants quick and decisive movement

      It's only an "important issue" because some people are making it such for political and financial gain. There is no evidence that a body cam is needed in this case either: there is tons of physical evidence and witness statements. People are trying to fabricate a crisis in order to push through political agendas.

    46. Re:Federal vs. local decision (Re:I like...) by mrex · · Score: 1

      It's a pretty clear-cut case of federal overreach.

      Can you define "overreach"? It sounds like a subjective opinion rather than anything verifiable or empirical.

      The reality is that "power of the purse" simply refers to "holding the purse strings" - he who controls expenditures wields a lot of power, and Congress was given that power specifically and for reason. Its use of the power was never, in any way, limited to federal-to-federal interactions.

      Enjoy having Interstate Highways with uniform laws? Uniform standards for drunk driving? You have Congressional bullying of the states using pursestring power to thank for it.

    47. Re:Federal vs. local decision (Re:I like...) by mrex · · Score: 1

      I like the idea of police wearing cameras, but you're jumping to conclusions by assuming that it has a "clear and enormous benefit".

      I'm not jumping to conclusions, I'm relying upon empirical data like this:

      http://www.theguardian.com/wor...

      Nobody knows what the long term consequences are or how this technology may be abused.

      And unless a better, more tangible case against them can be presented than vague and airey fear, uncertainty, and doubt of speculative "unknown unknowns", we should expect to discover the consequences through experience shortly.

      We don't know whether this is the right choice for every single community in the US either.

      Is that the bar, now? Any law that is passed has to be "the right choice for every single community in the US", by the standards of every individual? That sounds like a recipe for a totally dysfunctional government. Even in a republican democracy, sometimes the majority gets to rule.

      Just because something seems like a good idea to a lot of people doesn't mean it should become federal law.

      I don't think anyone has been arguing that everything that "seems like a good idea to a lot of people" should become a federal law, so what point are you addressing here? A strawman?

      Something should become federal law only if it cannot be implemented at the local or state level.

      That's just your opinion, not the American tradition.

    48. Re:Federal vs. local decision (Re:I like...) by mrex · · Score: 1

      Cities are fully in charge of their police departments

      Of course they aren't. Some cities, towns, and villages are very poorly managed. Your distrust for government is pretty inexplicable if you believe that every government is fully competent and in control of their duties, isn't it?

      And if the "move slowly", that's their right.

      No it isn't. The people have the right to decide how their government operates, and if they're unhappy with the speed, to accelerate the process or escalate up the "chain of command".

      It's only an "important issue" because some people are making it such for political and financial gain.

      I'm pretty sure you would have a different outlook on the importance of the issue if someone who looked like your child was on the front pages practically each and every day over questionable police-violence incidents.

      People are trying to fabricate a crisis in order to push through political agendas.

      How is putting cameras on police even remotely a "political agenda"? What political interest group does it serve? What smoky back room is full of fat cats whose schemes for world domination will be advanced by subjecting police officers to something approaching the same level of workplace supervision that we demand of daycare operators?

    49. Re:Federal vs. local decision (Re:I like...) by silfen · · Score: 1

      Of course they aren't. Some cities, towns, and villages are very poorly managed.

      Of course they are, frequently in fact. How is kicking the problem to the state or federal government going to fix it? Obviously, government at the state and federal level is just as corrupt and dysfunctional, but even harder to control by voters.

      Your distrust for government is pretty inexplicable if you believe that every government is fully competent and in control of their duties, isn't it?

      Quite the opposite: I expect government to screw up at all levels, just like businesses screw up. Screwing up is part of human nature and human organizations. One of the best defenses against those screwups is to keep things as local and diverse as possible. That way, while some cities fail because they make bad decisions, others who make good decisions prosper.

      I'm pretty sure you would have a different outlook on the importance of the issue if someone who looked like your child was on the front pages practically each and every day over questionable police-violence incidents.

      That's a problem with the front pages, not reality. In reality, killings by police are rare, representative of the population of suspects, and are almost always found to be in accordance to the law.

      How is putting cameras on police even remotely a "political agenda"?

      Federal interference in local politics and local policing is a political agenda.

      What smoky back room is full of fat cats whose schemes for world domination will be advanced by subjecting police officers to something approaching the same level of workplace supervision that we demand of daycare operators?

      The smoky backroom full of fat cats like Obama, Bush, congressmen, and the lobbyists and cronies that supply them with money and want power.

    50. Re:Federal vs. local decision (Re:I like...) by silfen · · Score: 1

      I'm not jumping to conclusions, I'm relying upon empirical data like this:

      Yes, you are jumping to conclusions. While body cameras clearly have benefits, they also have costs and effects that we don't know yet. I do want my local police department to wear them, but I don't want the state or federal government to mandate that they wear them.

      That's just your opinion, not the American tradition.

      No, what I stated is the American tradition. It's you who subscribes to the bizarre and un-American idea that the federal government can and should pass whatever laws it deems to be in the benefit of Americans overall.

    51. Re:Federal vs. local decision (Re:I like...) by mrex · · Score: 1

      The smoky backroom full of fat cats like Obama, Bush, congressmen, and the lobbyists and cronies that supply them with money and want power.

      So, the most powerful policymakers in our country are conspiring to implement an agenda of increasing public supervision of the police? That's your conspiratorial agenda? That sounds like *doing their jobs properly* to me!

    52. Re:Federal vs. local decision (Re:I like...) by mrex · · Score: 1

      While body cameras clearly have benefits, they also have costs and effects that we don't know yet.

      Then it is you who are jumping to conclusions. You've concluded that there are serious costs and negative effects, despite a total lack of evidence. I'm *refusing* to jump to conclusions by not assuming negative effects until they can be shown to exist.

      No, what I stated is the American tradition.

      Really? How do you figure, when I just gave you several historical examples of Congress doing the same thing you're objecting to?

    53. Re:Federal vs. local decision (Re:I like...) by silfen · · Score: 1

      Really? How do you figure, when I just gave you several historical examples of Congress doing the same thing you're objecting to?

      Read de Tocqueville; he explains it pretty well.

      Then it is you who are jumping to conclusions. You've concluded that there are serious costs and negative effects, despite a total lack of evidence. I'm *refusing* to jump to conclusions by not assuming negative effects until they can be shown to exist.

      I'm not concluding anything, I merely tried to illustrate a basic fact of US democracy for you. Sorry if you don't grasp it.

    54. Re:Federal vs. local decision (Re:I like...) by silfen · · Score: 1

      So, the most powerful policymakers in our country are conspiring to implement an agenda of increasing public supervision of the police? That's your conspiratorial agenda? That sounds like *doing their jobs properly* to me!

      Well, lots of people love political dictators and strongmen; you apparently too. That doesn't make it right.

    55. Re:Federal vs. local decision (Re:I like...) by mrex · · Score: 1

      If your idea of a "political dictator and strongman" is someone increasing oversight of the nation's police forces, you've completely removed all meaning from those terms and are simply using them for rhetorical impact.

    56. Re:Federal vs. local decision (Re:I like...) by silfen · · Score: 1

      If your idea of a "political dictator and strongman" is someone increasing oversight of the nation's police forces, you've completely removed all meaning from those terms and are simply using them for rhetorical impact.

      No, obviously not (why do I even need to explain that?). I am pointing out that your reasoning and argumentation are symptomatic of someone who brings dictators to power. You and people like you obviously favor other such policies as well, and even though they seem individually harmless, collectively they bring down democracies.

    57. Re:Federal vs. local decision (Re:I like...) by mrex · · Score: 1

      You and people like you obviously favor other such policies as well, and even though they seem individually harmless, collectively they bring down democracies.

      Baseless calumny is no substitute for an argument. If you have nothing to add but wild ad hominem attacks, lets conclude our discussion.

    58. Re:Federal vs. local decision (Re:I like...) by mrex · · Score: 1

      How about making your own arguments? Reading de Tocqueville doesn't tell me what you took away from it or how you think it relates to our discussion.

      I'm not concluding anything

      OK, then.

    59. Re:Federal vs. local decision (Re:I like...) by silfen · · Score: 1

      You asked in what way subsidiarity is an American tradition. I'm pointing you to de Tocqueville, who observed subsidiarity as a principle of US governance in the 19th century. What else do you want?

    60. Re:Federal vs. local decision (Re:I like...) by mrex · · Score: 1

      You asked in what way subsidiarity is an American tradition.

      No, I didn't. If you insist that I did, please quote me.

    61. Re:Federal vs. local decision (Re:I like...) by silfen · · Score: 1

      Are you senile or something?

      [mrex:] That's just your opinion, not the American tradition.

    62. Re:Federal vs. local decision (Re:I like...) by mrex · · Score: 1

      So, when you said, "you asked in what way subsidiarity is an American tradition", what you meant was, "you asked a question that I could derail with a non sequitur".

  14. Re:One correction by ixl · · Score: 1

    If the camera is damaged but the footage survives, and the last frame shows you wrecking the camera, then you've got some explaining to do. To a judge.

  15. Fascist scumbag tool. by Type44Q · · Score: 1

    ...it gives the impression that the police officer has overreacted when they haven't.

    ...when they might not have. (FTFY, Claire... you Fascist P.o.S.).

    1. Re:Fascist scumbag tool. by dgatwood · · Score: 1

      ...it gives the impression that the police officer has overreacted when they did.

      FTFY. The fact of the matter is, if the last part of an interaction looks like you overreacted, you overreacted. It means you lost your head in a crisis, putting yourself and others in danger unnecessarily. That's simply not acceptable. Understandable, but not acceptable.

      --

      Check out my sci-fi/humor trilogy at PatriotsBooks.

  16. Re:One correction by apraetor · · Score: 1

    And any use of force without a camera should be subject to civilian laws (i.e. no qualified immunity), which impose a MUCH stricter standard on what constitutes "self-defense". As other areas of government have been forced into openness and transparency we somehow let police departments escape from the most vital part -- scrutiny of the actual "policing", audit trails of each interaction with civilians.

  17. Re:One correction by bhspencer · · Score: 1

    That horse has left the barn. The states are federated, the USA might as well be a single state. Why do we even bother thinking of states as individual legal entities any more.

  18. Imagine my surprise by Old-Claimjumper · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Albuquerque has had problems recently with police shooting a homeless man and their lapel cameras show something that appears to be a real unjustified use of force.

    Now that there is loads of bad press from the released videos, the last couple of "incidents" have been plagued with ummm... Camera Malfunctions! That's it. The cameras just malfunctioned and didn't work. We just don't understand it. Sorry, but we don't have any video of that last shooting...

    A really good idea, but the devil is in the details.

    1. Re:Imagine my surprise by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Then prosecute the officer for destruction of evidence. Yes the burden of proof makes the prosecution difficult, but the possibility of spending weeks in court may reduce those "malfunctions".

  19. Re:One correction by apraetor · · Score: 3, Informative

    It is not a subversion of the Constitution, since the 16th Amendment explicitly authorizes it.

  20. People like you... by whistlingtony · · Score: 3, Informative

    Well, I guess that since a tiny slice of the cops MIGHT disable their cameras, we shouldn't do it at all. We probably shouldn't do anything at all, ever. We should probably just make murder legal and stop prosecuting it, since some people still murder...

    I do not understand how people with this outlook can get anything done in life.

    Cameras are good. They keep everyone, cops and public, polite. If the camera doesn't work, that comes out in the courtroom. That's what the courtroom is for.

    1. Re:People like you... by asylumx · · Score: 1

      Just curious, what would your opinion be if the question here was putting cameras on every street corner?

    2. Re:People like you... by timeOday · · Score: 1
      I would say, no thanks. And that employees in the performance of their duty are in a different situation than ordinary people going about their private business (even if in a public space). I can't think of any good reason not to make this distinction.

      That said I also think that access to "Cop-Cams" should be by court-order only. I don't think the police should be able to selectively choose whatever video supports their case, nor feel that they are being needless monitored constantly.

    3. Re:People like you... by clarkkent09 · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Ok, so here are some counter arguments to cop cameras:

      1) Officer discretion is gone. Jay walking? Have a tiny amount of pot? Prosecute everything since it's on camera and cop might conceivably get into trouble if he lets it go.

      2) Potential for privacy invasion. The cameras don't just record the cops actions, they record everything in their line of sight. 800,000 cops in the US = 800,000 cameras on the street and inside people's houses with data stored on government servers.

      3) Slippery slope. If you can put camera on cops, why not put them on other government employees? How about post office workers - mail theft is a serious crime. How about private sector employees.

      4) More criminals let out on a technicality. This footage is a gift to the Saul Goodman type lawyers who can now pore over every single thing an officer does or says.

      5) Cops are people too. How would you like wearing a camera on your job? Would you behave differently? Idk, I think this has subtle implications on good officer retention and also performance as they avoid every even smallest risk in everything they do.

      This is more or less off the top of my head. There are probably many more. I'm not even saying we shouldn't do it, but it's ridiculous to say this is obviously a good idea, no discussion necessary.

      --
      Negative moral value of force outweighs the positive value of good intentions.
    4. Re:People like you... by timeOday · · Score: 2

      But you didn't respond to my suggestion that the video be retrievable only by court order. Don't you think that would mitigate a lot of the issues you mentioned?

    5. Re:People like you... by Feces's+Edge · · Score: 2

      1) Officer discretion is gone. Jay walking? Have a tiny amount of pot? Prosecute everything since it's on camera and cop might conceivably get into trouble if he lets it go.

      That depends on how the footage is handled. Maybe it's only kept for a while, and then deleted if it isn't requested in any case.

      2) Potential for privacy invasion. The cameras don't just record the cops actions, they record everything in their line of sight. 800,000 cops in the US = 800,000 cameras on the street and inside people's houses with data stored on government servers.

      The difference is that there are much fewer cameras than there would be if the cameras were installed everywhere without requiring a human owner. With this, the cameras are always around the cop, so they don't see much more than the cop would, and mass surveillance is limited. 800,000 cameras in a country as big in the US is absolutely nothing.

      The same problems simply don't exist.

      3) Slippery slope. If you can put camera on cops, why not put them on other government employees? How about post office workers - mail theft is a serious crime. How about private sector employees.

      Because office workers don't have massive power over others like cops do.

      4) More criminals let out on a technicality. This footage is a gift to the Saul Goodman type lawyers who can now pore over every single thing an officer does or says.

      This is a good thing. Cops shouldn't get away with abuses, technicality or no. They have to follow procedure, and that's precisely what our system should ensure happens.

      5) Cops are people too. How would you like wearing a camera on your job?

      I'd have to suck it up if I had the power over others that cops do.

    6. Re:People like you... by Copid · · Score: 1

      That depends on how the footage is handled. Maybe it's only kept for a while, and then deleted if it isn't requested in any case.

      That's how I'd run it. Video is stored away securely and only the relevant timeframes are retrieved if something goes to court or someone otherwise decides to make an issue of it. No bullshit like demanding a week's worth of video footage or having supervisors do spot checks. If a citizen complains or if a criminal case is filed, the relevant video is pulled. Anything more requires a court order.

      All of this worry about cops going to the bathroom or political fishing expeditions can be resolved with decent storage and access policies.

      --
      An interesting anagram of "BANACH TARSKI" is "BANACH TARSKI BANACH TARSKI"
    7. Re:People like you... by RivenAleem · · Score: 1

      Slashdot would die overnight if people were forced to wear cameras at work.

    8. Re:People like you... by dywolf · · Score: 1

      1) it's not a given that officer discretion is gone. the same argument was said about dash cams in squad cars, but was just as invalid there. It's up to department policy. Very few departments I know of would even contemplate removing officer discretion, let alone actually do it.

      2) No more so than dash cams, or the millions of cameras in peoples pockets already, uploading tons of background to youtube. Public spaces and all that. Plus, it's not terribly difficult to write laws or policies regarding handling of actual privacy data. There's many laws already on the books, it's not an unknown new preoblem, but rather a previously encountered and solved one.

      3) No. Absolutely not. Pure absurdity and stupidity.

      4) You just cited the "technicality myth". Even more invalid than the slippery slope. It basically only exists on TV. (Myth #6 on http://www.huffingtonpost.com/... ). It rarely happens in real life. But when it does, what you call a "technicality" is when the state somehonw violated your (or specifically the defenedant's) rights in its pursuit of justice. When rights only matter for "law abiding citizens", but can be tosed out the window for anyone accused of a crime...that's not law, that's a charade. You should be happy that in enforcing the law is willing to make its own job harder and more difficult, and even toss it's own victories, in the name of protecting your rights should you be accused.

      5) That's the whole point. In the cities where this has been done, YES INTERACTIONS CHANGED. Specifically, accusations of brutality or misconduct decreased to tremendously. Wearing the camera protects BOTH THE OFFICER AND THE CITIZEN. An impartial observer to the complete interaction is in everyones' interests: the cop's, the citizen's, and society's in general. Cops have a job to do. That job entails making decisions on a daily basis in regards to enforcing law and interacting with everyday citizens. If you dont have the gumptions or confidence to do that and face potential review at a later date, maybe you shouldnt enter that sort of occupation. Course, that applies to every job.

      Traffic cameras, police car dash cams, and officer worn cams have all been tremendous success stories in terms of providing an impartial official record of what actually happened. When actual video exists of an entire encounter, rather than relying on notoriously unreliable "eyewitnesses" or hoping some passerby caught it on camera, it becomes clear exactly what happened. Also, we can once again turn to other countries, as this isn't a new thing being encountered for the time ever. It's been common in Europe and UK for close to 10 years now. Also tremendously successful over there.

      http://www.theguardian.com/wor...
      http://online.wsj.com/articles...

      --
      The guy who said the election was rigged won the presidency with the second-most votes.
    9. Re:People like you... by Shortguy881 · · Score: 1

      Ok point by point:

      1) There are two possibilities here. Have no review of the film and delete records after X days unless there is an incident, in which case they are pulled and saved for court. This would cause the more stupid laws to be revisited and overturned as unenforceable.

      2) Again, no permanent records

      3) All other federal employees do not have the right to use lethal force. That should be the deciding factor. If they can kill someone on the job, they should have a camera.

      4) "It is better that ten guilty men go free than that one innocent man be convicted." - William Blackstone

      5) The point is to make them behave differently. They are civil servants and are accountable to the people. Without something like this in place, and this has been shown over and over again, they are accountable to practically no one. I, also, imagine the opposite would be true of employee retention. Only officers looking to subvert the law would leave the force.

      --
      Brilliance without wisdom, power without conscience. Ours is a world of nuclear giants and ethical infants.
    10. Re:People like you... by silfen · · Score: 1

      Opposing a federal law mandating the use of police cameras isn't the same as opposing police cameras. I'm happy if my local police wear body cameras. I strongly object to such a requirement being imposed by the federal government.

      Just because something is right for white middle class nerds like you doesn't mean it's right for everybody. It's your kind of hubris and ignorance that causes Washington to keep passing ineffective and harmful legislation, legislation that makes the white middle class happy and well off at the expense of everybody else. Cut it out.

  21. Re:One correction by Type44Q · · Score: 1

    It's subversion of the constitution by the backdoor

    And hence the expression "getting bent over..."

  22. Re:One correction by iggymanz · · Score: 1

    because they are individual, for a list of things so long the text file would take megabytes.

  23. This is already happening in parts of England by Alain+Williams · · Score: 2

    Grampian Police started this a year ago and the police in London in May.

  24. Re:One rule by schwit1 · · Score: 1

    I agree, but let's start with the IRS on this one. The feds have had data retention rules in place for many years but if the DA refuses to prosecute the guilty it's a toothless rule.

  25. Police good, people bad by c0d3g33k · · Score: 3, Insightful

    "And police officers are now at a disadvantage, because someone can tape the last part of an encounter and not tape the first part of the encounter. And it gives the impression that the police officer has overreacted when they haven't."

    Or maybe they have, because they have the legal authority to use force and the citizenry they are sworn to protect and serve do not.

    I find it a very disturbing trend that "ordinary citizens" are now viewed as dangerous and "the enemy" from which the noble police (and other official institutions) must be protected. When I grew up, the general tone was that of Blackstone's Formulation ("It is better that ten guilty persons escape than that one innocent suffer"). Now it seems to be "It's better that ten innocent persons suffer than that one guilty person escape".

  26. Re:One correction by jratcliffe · · Score: 2

    Fine. But the fed shouldn't be taking that money from states' residents in the first place. It's subversion of the constitution by the backdoor and should be stopped.

    The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people.

    Sixteenth Amendment: The Congress shall have power to lay and collect taxes on incomes, from whatever source derived, without apportionment among the several States, and without regard to any census or enumeration.

    So, the taxes are EXPLICITLY a power delegated to the United States.

  27. Will the video be available though? by Rizzen · · Score: 1

    My biggest concern is that it seems to presently be somewhat difficult to get the cops to ever release footage they do shoot from their cars. As long as these videos are made part of public record and freely available for anyone to view then I can see this being a major step in several ways.

    1. Re:Will the video be available though? by Mr+D+from+63 · · Score: 1

      A step forward or backward? Do you want every encounter you have with an officer to be publicly available? Lets say you bet pulled for speeding, but felt it was not excessive and challenged the officer. The next week, you are at that job interview and here they have video evidence that you don't respect authority.

      A very hypothetical case, I know, but as someone who has gotten his share of tickets, I will say I typically accept that I deserved the ticket and treat the officer with the appropriate respect and tone, but one or two cases I was quite upset and it probably would not have come off on camera very well even though there was nothing disrespectful said.

    2. Re: Will the video be available though? by Rizzen · · Score: 1

      That is a valid point but I think 1) Someone who would go to this extent to prevent you from getting a job is also likely not someone I would want to work for anyhow. 2) The time when the officer pulls you over is not the approprate time to argue your case. That's what the court is for. "This citation is not an admition of guilt...." blah blah blah and all that stuff they say when you sign the ticket.

    3. Re: Will the video be available though? by Mr+D+from+63 · · Score: 1

      I've convinced more than one cop to let me off. You have to know what the line is and read the officer's demeanor. Sometimes nice guy approach, some times a tougher stance is needed, no guarantees either way. Thanks for your unsolicited advice though.

      The point regarding privacy is not to make a case against using the cameras, its more to make sure the impacts and consequences are considered in advance. Doing so and taking steps to address them can help achieve a successful outcome a lot quicker than simply dismissing those concerns or rationalizing them away.

    4. Re:Will the video be available though? by rapjr · · Score: 1

      Good point. Also, what happens to the video later? Is it all stored and processed automatically to track everyone in camera view? Used to find suspects among those who were recorded "near" a crime? Can any or all video be subpoenaed by any lawyer?

  28. For the cops that oppose by Ogive17 · · Score: 2

    Just like everything else in this country, a few bad apples ruin it for the rest of us.

    My dad is a retired cop, very honest guy (though maybe I'm a bit biased). Most of the guys on the force were genuine good guys, of course there was 1 or 2 jackass's that would do stupid shit.

    If a chest cam is going to eliminate the contradictions between the cop and the suspect, so be it. A few thousand people died 13 years ago in a terrorist attack and now the rest of us who want to fly on a commercial aircraft are treated as potential terrorists.

    --
    "Action without philosophy is a lethal weapon; philosophy without action is worthless."
    1. Re:For the cops that oppose by HeckRuler · · Score: 3, Interesting

      My dad is a retired cop, very honest guy (though maybe I'm a bit biased). Most of the guys on the force were genuine good guys, of course there was 1 or 2 jackass's that would do stupid shit.

      Ask him if these jackasses ever did any stupid shit that he observed. Did he arrest them? Did he report them? Did he let it slide? Did he cover it up?

      If he answers more towards the later, rather than the former, then he wasn't a "genuine good guy". Everyone I've ever talked to with ties to a police department swears that the majority are good apples, and yet the entire police force seems to look after their own when shit hits the fan.

    2. Re:For the cops that oppose by Binestar · · Score: 4, Informative

      If a police officer witnesses another police officer committing a crime they would arrest a normal citizen for but lets it pass, that police officer is a corrupt police officer. Period.

      --
      Do you Gentoo!?
    3. Re:For the cops that oppose by Ogive17 · · Score: 1

      First of all, fuck off.

      second of all, it was guys just being dickheads.. kinda like you.

      --
      "Action without philosophy is a lethal weapon; philosophy without action is worthless."
    4. Re:For the cops that oppose by Ogive17 · · Score: 1

      being an ass-hole isn't illegal

      --
      "Action without philosophy is a lethal weapon; philosophy without action is worthless."
    5. Re:For the cops that oppose by HeckRuler · · Score: 1

      I think I've spotted a bad apple. It just takes one to spoil the batch.

      Did you see me insult your dad? Did you miss that 'if' statement? Why are you presuming I'm attacking you? I honestly DO want you to ask your father this question and see what his response is. Hey, maybe he DID report them to his boss. In which case that would make him a "genuine good guy". Maybe. But I'm trying to explain to you that that's not what appears to be the common state of affairs and perhaps you could use this insight to try and understand why people view the cops the way they do. But no, you just lash out at me.

      Why is that? Are you prone to violent outbursts? Quick to anger? Do you assume that everyone is an opponent and you need to fight back?

      Hey, maybe the apple doesn't fall very far from the tree.

    6. Re:For the cops that oppose by Ogive17 · · Score: 1

      Those are some damn fine assessments you've done based on one "fuck off" comment.

      I'm sure you'll go to town with my next comment but here goes.. The reason why most people hate cops is that they do not want to take responsibility for their own actions. "Stupid pig having to meet his quota of speeding tickets, nevermind that I was going 70mph in a 45." "How dare that cop arrest me for smoking pot in public!"

      The entire point I was trying to make, before you basically assumed my dad has covered for a bad cop and therefor makes himself a bad guy, is that most cops just want to do their job and go home. Yes, there are some who seem hell bent on making everyone else's lives miserable by using laws to their advantage. Giving you a ticket for going 58 in a 55, as an example. My dad worked with a few like that.. simply being a jerk isn't illegal.

      You also need to know that we're in a relatively rural part of the country, 100k or so people in the county. There is not much excitement or shennanigans.

      You can think whatever you want. The first 25 years of my life, I grew up around many peace officers. Most of them you'd never guess they were cops if not for the standard issue mustaches. They worked to uphold the laws passed by the various levels of government.

      I'm proud to be associated to my dad. You'd probably get along well with him, unless your only intent would be to antagonize.

      --
      "Action without philosophy is a lethal weapon; philosophy without action is worthless."
    7. Re:For the cops that oppose by HeckRuler · · Score: 1

      The reason why most people hate cops is that they do not want to take responsibility for their own actions.

      Pft, please. Really? This is what you think is going on in people's heads? This is the sort of laughable caricature that I don't even have to refute because most people are going to read that and think you're an idiot. You're not helping the reputation of police officers if this is what they raise their kids to believe. You can't even fully stomach it yourself because you know it's flamebait.

      The entire point I was trying to make... is that most cops just want to do their job and go home.

      Right, that is almost EXACTLY why this is such a problem. Most of them aren't professionals that do the right thing even if the path is hard. To most cops, it's just a job and they want to go home at the end of the day. They will not rock the boat and blow whistles. They will come into an established system that looks out for their own and they will do nothing to stop it because that's the path of least resistance. They are complacent and comfortable. This isn't just limited to the cops. It's one of those more universal problems. I've seen this a lot in engineering. You'd hope they were professionals, cared about doing a good job, and not just there to punch in, turn the cog, and punch out. But no, most people just don't have that fire. Anyway, YES, the initial point you made is utterly true and the root cause of the problem at hand.

      before you basically assumed my dad has covered for a bad cop and therefor makes himself a bad guy,

      HAHAHA, even after I lambast you for assuming an antagonistic stance you still double-down and put up your dukes. And you still don't have any idea why people distrust cops. That's kind of adorably cliche.

      Seriously though, ask your dad the question. Post his answer and what sort of conversation you guys had after that. A youtube video would be best. Given the shit in Ferguson, it'll be pertinent and insightful.

  29. Can we stop using the word 'TAPE' by schwit1 · · Score: 2

    It's 2014 and nobody uses tape to record. Recorded data should be sent to a remote data store that the defendants, PD and DA have read only access to.

    1. Re:Can we stop using the word 'TAPE' by Bing+Tsher+E · · Score: 1

      No. Perhaps data should be recorded to write-only tape. That the defendant's legal representative and the DA have the ability to rewind and view. 'Data stores' are trivial to edit. Linear tapes are impossible to edit.

    2. Re:Can we stop using the word 'TAPE' by blueg3 · · Score: 1

      Yes, wireless network security, network service security, and wireless data coverage are all solid enough that this is a great idea and definitely could not be easily hacked.

    3. Re:Can we stop using the word 'TAPE' by c0d3g33k · · Score: 1

      Live-action and animated stories are rarely recorded on film these days, yet we still call them films. Or movies, but I guess that still works because they, you know, move. But generally speaking, there are many words which originated in a context that no longer applies, but we still use those words, so why should tape be an exception?

      Tonight on action news 7: Could the death of tape be imminent? Film at 11.

    4. Re:Can we stop using the word 'TAPE' by asylumx · · Score: 1

      Linear tapes are impossible to edit.

      How do you figure? Hollywood made much of its money doing exactly that.

    5. Re:Can we stop using the word 'TAPE' by AthanasiusKircher · · Score: 2

      It's 2014 and nobody uses tape to record

      Meh. This is one of those language battles that is probably lost. We still refer to "films" too even when most are no longer watched on actual film stock (and many are increasingly shot and produced without film either).

      There are lots of words like this. When's the last time you "dialed" a phone with an actual dial? For me, I'd say almost 20 years ago. When's the last time you "hung up" a phone, i.e., literally hung it up on the wall (not "put it down" on a tabletop phone), with the force of gravity pulling the little cradle down to cut the line? I'd say maybe 25 years or more for me, and that was only on my grandmother's old dial wall phone that was probably at least 20 years old.

      So, I think we may be stuck with "tape" as a synonym for "record," probably for decades to come.

    6. Re:Can we stop using the word 'TAPE' by mjwx · · Score: 1

      Linear tapes are impossible to edit.

      Erm, scissors and glue.

      Beyond that you can just do what we did in the 90's to get rid of previews and government piracy warnings, record it onto another tape sans the parts you dont want.

      Maintaining data security and integrity is a process, not a format.

      Besides this, for high def video from multiple cameras the size of the tape cartridge itself would be the same as an 90's VCR unit and well... the calorie intake of the average cop is already pretty high, how much more would it need to be if they had to lug around an old TEAC every day.

      --
      Calling someone a "hater" only means you can not rationally rebut their argument.
    7. Re:Can we stop using the word 'TAPE' by frank_adrian314159 · · Score: 1

      So, I think we may be stuck with "tape" as a synonym for "record," probably for decades to come.

      Yes! And isn't it great?

      Think of how barren English would be without the presence of archaic phrases - you'd not be able to bridle your enthusiasm, take a particular tack, or a million (OK, maybe a few hundred) other things. Languages change, but they have inertia, too. And I can't stress enough how good that is! I as a man of advanced years would sound particularly stupid using the vernacular of today's hipster, as both he or I would sound if either of us brought up phrases like "23 skidoo" or called a woman a "tomato", unless doing so in some ironic manner after viewing an ancient black and white film.

      Or just look at it like what it is... Something that makes fuck all for sense, just like our fun, fun language.

      --
      That is all.
  30. For Classrooms Too by Scottingham · · Score: 3, Interesting

    I'd like to see a camera in every public school classroom as well.

    It would end the 'he said/she said' arguments when a kid is being disruptive and the parent refuses to believe their snowflake is anything other than perfect.

    It could also allow for a better means of evaluating a teacher's performance. Currently it is done with in person audits by an administrator...teachers behave quite differently under that situation.

    1. Re:For Classrooms Too by Mantrid42 · · Score: 4, Insightful

      That's... not really the same. Average people should not be under surveillance at all times. Cops are different. They're special; they're tasked with upholding the law and keeping the peace. They have more power than an average person, so they need to be under more scrutiny than the average person.

    2. Re:For Classrooms Too by RyoShin · · Score: 1

      For a while I heavily considered a career in teaching (which I've since given up on), and one of the things that I thought of from very early often is that, if at all possible, I would keep a camera in the classroom, recording, at all times that someone was in there. If it wasn't possible, I would think twice about teaching there. While there are a lot of privacy implications, it would be known there was a camera there and recording which might even make the room a haven of sorts from those worried about bullying.

      Aside from showing parents how much of a demon their little snowflake is, as a male educator (who doesn't like towing the line) I would be open to a lot of claims and complaints. If it was a he-said-she-said situation, even if the claim was completely false I expect I would be asked to resign (at best) and forced/hounded out and rumors spread that make it hard for me to get a teaching position elsewhere (at worst.) While a camera wouldn't be 100% effective against that, it would go a long way to preventing it.

  31. By GoPro Stock now. by LWATCDR · · Score: 1

    That is all.

    --
    See my blog http://ilovecookes.blogspot.com/ for light hearted technical information.
    1. Re:By GoPro Stock now. by dkman · · Score: 1

      I read the summary as "Senator says I own stock in wearable cameras. Cameras should be required." Which also means the price of wearable cameras will increase 10-fold the day after it passes.
      There needs to be limits on the amount of BS that comes out of Washington. If they wanted to do it in a fair way they would need to set limits on the cost of such cameras. Such as "if cameras are obtainable under x dollars a piece you need to use them to get funding". That way costs don't go through the roof. Every time something is required the people are getting gouged for it.

      --
      I refuse to sign
  32. Politicians also by craigminah · · Score: 1

    Let's expand this idea and have every politician wear a camera so we see all the BS the do and say. Kind of like a front row seat in the sausage factory...

  33. Re:One rule by Em+Adespoton · · Score: 1

    Don't even need that -- just if something happens off-cam, the officer's word means next to nothing and the ruling is heavily weighted towards the plaintiff. If officers found that their testimony in court is automatically thrown out if they don't play by the recording rules, there'd be less messing with evidence.

  34. Re:One correction by i+kan+reed · · Score: 3, Informative

    Constitutional amendments libertarians don't like are unconstitutional FYI.

  35. cops + cameras = all problems fixed! by BringsApples · · Score: 1

    Yup, you can see how effective a camera mounted on a police officer is here.

    --
    Politics; n. : A religion whereby man is god.
    1. Re:cops + cameras = all problems fixed! by gurps_npc · · Score: 1
      90% of the advantage of such a program is not the video itself.

      Instead it is the knowledge that the camera is there and uncertainty of what it MIGHT have caught on video.

      This alone causes a significance change in behavior - both by the cop and the criminal.

      Specifically, cops suddenly become afraid of getting caught committing crimes, rather than confident of their immunity, and criminals (sober ones at least), become much less likely to file false charges.

      --
      excitingthingstodo.blogspot.com
  36. Perfect the enemy of good. by bussdriver · · Score: 1

    1st) You make police video everything they do.
    2nd) having won that battle, then you setup procedural rules and a review/revise cycle which feeds into:
    3rd) having won that battle, then you setup laws to define use
    4th) having won that battle, you give somebody oversight and punitive powers for enforcement.

    You can't have it all or know it all from the start. If you start out defeated, you'll never win. It might be a waste of money to buy cameras that won't be used but at least they exist; someday.... after a big tragic event, the next step forward could be taken.

    We need laws with limited length, scope, and legalese; how to do this without breaking the process (current dysfunction aside,) is beyond me at this time. The iterative process which is required is greatly undermined by infrequent massive bloated and disjointed patches.

    1. Re:Perfect the enemy of good. by HeckRuler · · Score: 1

      That's a damn good roadmap.

  37. Federal vs. local decision (Re:I like...) by mrex · · Score: 1

    Where's the beef?

    Objecting in principle to this specific use of federal "purse string" power is pointless - the principle stands whether or not cameras on cops do or not. Congress has been using the power of the purse to bully states into compliance virtually since the Union began.

    And objecting to the specifics of this proposal is inane - the proposal of forcing cops to wear cameras is a solid and popular one. There's no associated diminution of civil liberties, and clear and enormous benefit in the goal of advancing the cause of justice.

    So then why raise the ideological issue here and now? Would you really be happier if the feds didn't use the power they have (and will have regardless of this case) to force cops to wear cameras?

  38. It's a small, good start. by quietwalker · · Score: 4, Insightful

    I'll be happier when I see cameras on the politicians. It'd be interesting to know what they agree to do in private lunch meetings with corporate CEOs and billionaire bankers. Criminally interesting, I suspect.

    1. Re:It's a small, good start. by Tokolosh · · Score: 2

      Every person whose salary I paid by the taxpayers must wear a camera while on duty, which shall stream in real-time to a publically-accessible internet site.

      --
      Prove anything by multiplying Huge Number times Tiny Number
    2. Re:It's a small, good start. by quietwalker · · Score: 1

      Need not be realtime, nor every public servant. I mean, we don't need to watch the garbagemen.

      It just has to be somewhere eventually accessible, with a known time delay - set by a court, perhaps if it's not going to be a default value like 1 or 3 days. Also protected from external tampering as someone above pointed out.

    3. Re:It's a small, good start. by Tokolosh · · Score: 3, Insightful

      My garbage is collected by a private company, not the government. And I have alternatives if they do not perform to my satisfaction. So no cameras for them. But if my local government wants to get into the garbage business, they wear cameras, sorry.

      No time delay, no court. No exceptions - I'm looking at you, Mr. President, congressman, justice, TSA and NSA. And any tampering is evidence of malfeasance.

      --
      Prove anything by multiplying Huge Number times Tiny Number
  39. Re:Every place that has implemented it has done gr by Mr+D+from+63 · · Score: 1

    Or maybe, just possibly, cops are like almost every other human being and reject the notion of having their every move on tape. I would hate that, regardless of the benefits.

  40. The death of leniency by mrex · · Score: 2

    That sounds more like a passive-aggressive mafia threat than a realistic possibility. "Oh, you better not do that, or else we might have to stop being so lenient with you!" Why would wearing cameras mean that "they have to charge you with something"? Why would the public tolerate a police force that operates on a mentality like that?

    This is exactly why we need cameras. Individual departments and officers are unique, but in general the American public has lost its faith in its police forces, and for damned good reasons. Police have shown themselves, in too many instances lately, to behave like a well-funded, well-organized group of thugs than exemplars of honorable behavior, law and order.

    Police are there to serve and protect our communities, and they serve the way we want them to serve and at our discretion. Any deviation from that order should be met with pink slips for any commanding officers or subordinates unable or unwilling to adapt to the reasonable demands of their bosses.

  41. so adjust the rules by Chirs · · Score: 4, Insightful

    If someone complains about an interaction with an officer where the officer's camera has no record of the interaction, the officer is assumed to be guilty.

    That should give officers incentive to ensure their cameras are in working order.

    1. Re:so adjust the rules by funwithBSD · · Score: 1

      It is already the case, it is called Spoliation of Evidence.

      IRS found that out when they "lost" the emails ordered turned over. They discovered that a prosecutor did not even have to prove it was intentional, it is presumed to be intentional if it happens after the request is made.

      Suddenly, those emails are just rilly rilly hard to find, not lost.

      --
      Never answer an anonymous letter. - Yogi Berra
    2. Re:so adjust the rules by sociocapitalist · · Score: 1

      If someone complains about an interaction with an officer where the officer's camera has no record of the interaction, the officer is assumed to be guilty.

      That should give officers incentive to ensure their cameras are in working order.

      Lack of proof for is not proof against.

      --
      blindly antisocialist = antisocial
    3. Re:so adjust the rules by JimFive · · Score: 1

      That should give officers incentive to ensure their cameras are in working order.

      And encourage miscreants to find ways to remotely disable the camera.

      I actually agree with your statement, missing camera footage should be treated as destroyed evidence (which, as I understand it, is treated as if it would support the other side). But there is potential for abuse on the other side, also.
      --
      JimFive

      --
      Please stop using the word theory when you mean hypothesis.
  42. stream the video remotely by Chirs · · Score: 1

    To an independent body that doesn't report to the police.

    1. Re:stream the video remotely by blue9steel · · Score: 1

      I'd fine with it even going to another police department, in another state, that doesn't have a reciprocal agreement for the same.

  43. Re:Every place that has implemented it has done gr by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    Or maybe, just possibly, cops are like almost every other human being and reject the notion of having their every move on tape. I would hate that, regardless of the benefits.

    With great power comes great responsibility. If someone's going to have a license to kill then they damn should be monitored in case they abuse it.

  44. Re:One correction by rickb928 · · Score: 1

    Highway funding is regularly tied to compliance with federal laws, some of which are simply usurpation of local or state authority. Speed limits, for instance, drinking age, and DWI laws. There are other examples too numerous to easily list here.

    The fight is to prevent the feds from tying the money to anything. Which should mean states and municipalities solving the problem themselves.

    --
    deleting the extra space after periods so i can stay relevant, yeah.
  45. Re:One correction by rickb928 · · Score: 1

    I'm not ready to give in yet.

    --
    deleting the extra space after periods so i can stay relevant, yeah.
  46. anacdotal evidence by Charliemopps · · Score: 3, Interesting

    Just a few years ago, I got pulled over for honking my horn at someone that was about to hit me. I don't think the cop saw the other car... but whatever. When he walked up to the car he yelled "Something wrong with your horn??!?!" to which I replied "Nope, I just tested it and it worked just fine." his reply was to draw his gun on me. I'm white, was 35 at the time, ware business casual and a business haircut.

    This isn't a race issue, it's a cop issue. I've had numerous run-ins with the police like this that more or less boil down to me having a smart mouth and not "respecting their authority" because, quite frankly, I don't. I shouldn't be afraid every time I get pulled over, but I am. That's not right.

    My son is adopted, and African American, and you're damned sure he's getting the talk when he's old enough. The police are not your friends, they are not here to help. They can legally murder you where you stand and get away with it on a routine basis. I would not say that the majority of them are "Good guys" and this is just a few bad eggs. I think the position attracts certain kinds of people that have ego problems and use the job to exert a psychological need to control others. The screening process and training they receive needs to change radically. I've never had a positive encounter with a police officer. Even when my home got broken into they used the opportunity to search my belonging because it was a "crime scene" That sort of behavior engenders distrust and leads to less crime being reported.

    1. Re:anacdotal evidence by Raenex · · Score: 1

      I've never had a positive encounter with a police officer.

      Most of mine have been positive. Not a single one has been objectionable. Then again, I'm polite and show the cops respect.

    2. Re:anacdotal evidence by Charliemopps · · Score: 1

      I've never had a positive encounter with a police officer.

      Most of mine have been positive. Not a single one has been objectionable. Then again, I'm polite and show the cops respect.

      And why should you have to? And really truly, think about that question long and hard. Are the disrespectful and rude any less citizens of this country? Do they have fewer rights that you? Should we beat rude people until they are less rude? Put them in prison? Take their property? Shoot them in the face? Because that's what we've been doing, and how well is it working for us?

    3. Re:anacdotal evidence by Raenex · · Score: 1

      And why should you have to?

      Ideally, you shouldn't, and cops would always act according to enlightened principles. In reality, cops are people too, and the smart thing to do is not provoke them needlessly.

      Should we beat rude people until they are less rude? Put them in prison? Take their property? Shoot them in the face?

      Of course not.

  47. Re:Every place that has implemented it has done gr by Overzeetop · · Score: 1

    This is why it isn't common.

    I think, though, that this is more of a temporary hurdle. Once it's in place, IF it's used properly, there's really no issue. Every bank teller in America has a camera on them at all times, as does nearly ever cashier and casino worker. Most every cube-dweller is subject to email and web tracking software at work as well, watching ever online click and transaction. For most everyone it's not an issue, and in this case there are more reasons - as a cop - to want it than not in the long run because it has the opportunity to make their job easier when it happens to be the hardest.

    --
    Is it just my observation, or are there way too many stupid people in the world?
  48. Pretty happy how easy it is to influence politics. by flayzernax · · Score: 1

    I mean 100,000 signatures is nothing, lets get the ball rolling on all kinds of other glorious bullshit.

  49. Crap hardware by GrBear · · Score: 3, Informative

    As someone in the business of selling law enforcement equipment, I'll tell you right now, most of the body cams available for law enforcement are compete and utter crap.

    Not only that, they don't have an effective back office solution to manage all that video. Sure you can dump the video onto a hard drive, but it needs to be indexed somehow so it can be searched for later by officer name, date, etc.

    A few companies are trying to make body worn cameras that don't look like blair witch recordings, but at this point, there's still at least a year away before anything usable arrives.

  50. It could help answer some questions by zerofoo · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Was Michael Brown surrendering with his hands up when he was shot, or was he attacking the police officer? Body cam video would have gone a long way to answering that question.

    When investigating complex matters like police shootings, more evidence is better. There is no way you can convince me that less data would make the investigation better.

  51. JFK warned about federal money ... by perpenso · · Score: 1

    What the fuck are you talking about. libertarians... such trash. much moron.

    You are mistaken. President Kennedy, although he may not have been President yet, once warned about local and state governments accepting federal money. He expressed concern that federal money may bring federal meddling and control over local affairs. In particular he was speaking about education.

    Most Democrats and Republicans agreed with Kennedy's opinion. I think the general consensus at the time was to use federal money only for one time expenses, like the construction of a school, but not for ongoing expenses like maintenance of the school or teacher salaries.

  52. Ticket: Improper use of finite resources ... by perpenso · · Score: 4, Interesting

    I think it was Montana that once tried to refuse the federal money over the speed limit (not many here have driven a Montana highway at 55).

    Arizona tried to ignore 55 and not enforce it in certain areas where they thought higher speeds were appropriate and safe. The feds got annoyed and tried to cut highway funding for Arizona. So Arizona started enforcing the 55 mph speed limit. A friend got pulled over and received a ticket, not for speeding -- a moving violation that would put points on his drivers license and raise his insurance rate, but for "improper use of finite resources" -- an infractions that did not show up on one's driving record. In other words he received a ticket for "wasting gas" not speeding.

  53. Just what we need by Badger+Nadgers · · Score: 1

    More selfies. *sigh*

  54. Re:Not Mandated by the Fed. BIG MISTAKE by Froggels · · Score: 1

    Not to be too pedantic, but the by the "Fed" are you referring the Federal Government or the Federal Reserve? The "Fed" is the the Federal Reserve. I realize it's all cool and stuff to shorten long words, but sometimes doing so can completely change the meaning of what you are trying to say.

  55. Founding fathers would approve filming... by gestalt_n_pepper · · Score: 2

    Separation of powers happened because the founding fathers understood that no single concentrated power could be trusted. Universal surveillance of all government officials would simply be an extension of this principal.

    The founding fathers would approve filming government at ALL levels, from congress to notary. Multiple cameras (in the case of cops, dash-cam and chest-cam), streaming to web, with read-only access and multiple, physically separated backups.

    There is no *technical* reason this can't be done, and frankly, it's a good idea. Think how much crap congress and K-Street wouldn't have gotten away with, had this been in place.

    --
    Please do not read this sig. Thank you.
  56. Re:One correction by jratcliffe · · Score: 1

    Sixteenth Amendment: The Congress shall have power to lay and collect taxes on incomes, from whatever source derived, without apportionment among the several States, and without regard to any census or enumeration.

    So, the taxes are EXPLICITLY a power delegated to the United States.

    And that power was intended for Congress to raise taxes to a level which made it difficult for the states to tax enough to fund their own infrastructure, and then offer to grant that money back to the states as long as the states did their bidding, right? Right?

    Sigh. Unfortunately, reading the comments so far, it is all too easy to believe that people are stupid enough to think that is actually how it is meant to work.

    So, now the argument is "it's Constitutional, but I don't like how it's been implemented." Got it.

  57. White House Petition? by troll+-1 · · Score: 1

    The president doesn't have the power to require local law enforcement to wear cameras. Read your constitution ye petition signers. Article II.

  58. Re:One correction by jratcliffe · · Score: 1

    Absolutely. After all, there's no difference in, say, the ability to get an abortion, or own a handgun, from one state to another.

  59. Being watched helps with good behavior by TheMiddleRoad · · Score: 2

    I took a citizens class at the local PD. They said an officer had received many complaints against him. In response, the chief required that he have his radio broadcasting audio during every single interaction he had with the public. The complaints ceased.

    This is an awesome idea. Not original at all, of course. I fully support it.

  60. Re:One correction by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    Make evidence retrieved without camera coverage inadmissible, citations issued without camera coverage inadmissible, and so on.

    Even simpler: net pay = gross salary * camera uptime (calculated using the lowest uptime across the whole department)

  61. And prison guards by John+Jorsett · · Score: 1

    Prison guards are just as, if not more so, in need of body cameras. It would head off a lot of abuse that takes place out of sight today. As a general rule I'm not thrilled with the feds big-footing states, but in cases like these, where unions have politicians in absolute thrall, I think it's not only desirable, but necessary.

  62. All senators should wear body cameras. by unkbar · · Score: 1

    Cheaper than equipping all the cops, and may expose more crimes. Transparency is good for all.

  63. Another asshole in Washington... by superdave80 · · Score: 1

    And police officers are now at a disadvantage, because someone can tape the last part of an encounter and not tape the first part of the encounter.

    Then how about you pass some federal legislation to make it fully legal to record police in public? You know how many people are told to stop recording and arrested for refusing to do so? Cops aren't at a 'disadvantage'. They don't want cameras, because they know right now it is their word over the word of criminals, suspected criminals, random people on the street, or dead guys. Guess who they think are going to be believed. They are just happy to have no recordings in case they screw up.

    "I would like to see us say, 'If you want federal funding in your community, you've got to have body cams on your officers. And I think that would go a long way towards solving some of these problems, and it would be a great legacy over this tragedy that's occurred in Ferguson, regardless of what the facts say at the end as to whether or not anyone is criminally culpable."

    First, this is just another example of how the federal government takes our tax money, and then 'requires' things that are completely outside the scope of their constitutional authority to get said money back (in some form). The federal government has absolutely no power to require a local municipality to buy a camera and require their cops to wear them. Stick to your constitutional duties, because you guys are simply spreading out into areas you have no business being in.

    Second, he is another jerk that believes in the old saying, "Never let a good crisis go to waste". Are you for gun control? Just have your legislation tucked away ready to go after the next school shooting, regardless of weather or not your pre-written legislation would have done any good in the latest crisis. Would a camera have done anything to prevent this shooting? Or determine who was at fault? Who knows, pass the legislation while the people are pissed!

    Third, I actually think cameras are a good idea, but let states and municipalities determine if they are necessary. There are plenty of towns in this country that simply have no need for cameras because the odds of them really being needed are so small that it would be a poor use of resources. There are something like half a million cops in this country, and even at $1,000 apiece (camera, storage, support, etc.), you are looking at a price tag of half a billion dollars, from a federal budget that already bleeds red like crazy.

  64. Re:One correction by Belial6 · · Score: 1

    That is exactly the opposite of what we want. You are suggesting that if a cop wants to severely beat you, all he has to do is disable his camera, and any charges against him will be dismissed.

  65. Re:Traffic stops? by russotto · · Score: 1

    I'm male and I got a written warning once. Of course the fact that it was an official written warning means this was standard procedure and would in no way be affected by a camera. The fact that no speed was written on the warning (despite their being a blank for it) explains how I got it... he'd spent a few minutes trying to get me to tell him a speed, which I wouldn't. Obviously he didn't know. Fortunately a reasonably honest specimen for a cop, even if he did try to trick me into confessing.

  66. Re:Every place that has implemented it has done gr by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    >yet some cops keep resisting

    Maybe they should "STOP RESISTING!".

  67. This will make for polite society by penguinoid · · Score: 1

    "Smile for the camera, sir!"

    --
    Don't waste your vote! Vote for whoever you want, unless you live in a swing state it won't matter anyways
  68. Every Inch of A Jail by JimSadler · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Not only should cops and squad cars be mandated to have extensive cams working at all times we need exactly the same thing in our jails and prisons. Abuse by guards as well as inmates should be made impossible. And we need voice as well as video. No cop should ever be able to blackmail an inmate or make deals with inmates under any conditions. And inmates should find it vastly difficult to conspire with other inmates. The days when a guard could force a prisoner to have sex or sell drugs within the prison or be rewarded for being an enforcer for the guards needs to come to a total end. Secrets are evil in and of themselves and secrets perpetuate crime as well. To enable the Truth to set us free we need to turn on very bright search lights.

    1. Re:Every Inch of A Jail by allonoak · · Score: 1

      Except that only those in possession of recordings are able to bring the truth to light. This means that bad things can still happen, but only those with the recordings get to do anything about it. I agree, though, that prisons should have pervasive recordings that are audited by an external source.

  69. Reduce the footprint by s.petry · · Score: 1

    You won't ever get a perfect law. An easy addition would be to include in the law a simple addition to the law (or secondary law). Any law enforcement persons found to be tampering with, disconnecting, hindering, or intentionally destroying the cameras and associated equipment for transmitting, encoding, decoding, viewing, or storing video will be subject to a penalty of 5-10 years imprisonment.

    This is still not perfect, but if you are a good citizen and see a cop off in an alleyway tampering you can film the act and call it in.

    I fully agree that this is still subjective and some cops will take the chance. That said, changing the corruption in the system has to start somewhere. If people at the bottom start getting taken out, people above them will start to be sucked out with them. Kind of cool how reduced sentences encourage lower level criminals to turn in the bigger bosses right? Corrupt cops are criminals too.

    --

    -The wise argue that there are few absolutes, the fool argues that there are no probabilities.

  70. Putting the shoe on the other foot.... by Stephan+Schulz · · Score: 1

    I can see the superficial attraction of this, but I think it overreaches. Nobody will work well if under permanent surveillance. On the other hand, why not turn it around? Have the senators wear body cameras during all fund-raisers, committee meetings, and discussions with staff, potential donors, and others.

    --

    Stephan

  71. I'd really think about this before I'd like ... by golodh · · Score: 1
    Taken at face value there's a lot to be said for having police officers wear camera's.

    They're Officers of the Law after all, so it's only right and proper that everyone goes *on record* each and every time they appear within a police officer's sight, yes?

    Only ... what about a guarantee that we can have free access to the (unedited !) footage in case of a dispute? It doesn't say so anywhere, so it's not guaranteed.

    And what about retention times of that footage? Will footage of person X being drunk and disorderly as a teen suddenly surface when said person runs for public office fifteen years later? Or footage showing him/her in a brawl? Or footage of them being less than civil when receiving a traffic citation? Or answering the door at 11 PM after a complaint about noise? Or kissing someone outside a disco? And err might their religious beliefs, political affiliation, race, ZIP code, or sexual inclination perhaps affect the probability of that happening?

    And what's to stop police officers from automatically evaluating the tapes afterwards record everyone's faces, ID everyone in sight, and store contact reports on every single member of the public they meet? It's a logical next step, right? And it's bound to please Homeland Security into the bargain. So how would you like it if police departments everywhere could save a bundle by getting federal subsidies on body camera's in exchange for footage and contact reports?

    And what about members of the public? Doesn't this mean they're at liberty to film each and every encounter involving a police officer too, e..g. wearing Google Glass'es? Think police departments will be happy about that? And what about wearing Google Glass all the time when you go outside? There's bound to be interest in all that footage from someone ... so you can perhaps make it pay for itself.

    Secondly ... what about sound? Supposing the officer (or member of the public) said something really, really offensive that the camera didn't catch. And then you pound on the footage of what ensues. Nice way to introduce bias, no?

    Thirdly ... how will police officers like it when they're on the monitor every minute of their shift? It's great when you want to find cause to fire someone and are looking for a suitable pretext. Just have someone sift through all the footage of a month, find the one or two instances said person goofs off, and take a "principled stance" condemning those particular instances and you're done.

    All reasonable and obvious considerations I'd like to see addressed before I'd start "liking" a gizmo like this.

  72. Re:Or we could simply revert to original best prac by Stephan+Schulz · · Score: 1

    • To recognise always that the power of the police to fulfil their functions and duties is dependent on public approval of their existence, actions and behaviour, and on their ability to secure and maintain public respect.
    • ...
    • To recognise always that the extent to which the co-operation of the public can be secured diminishes proportionately the necessity of the use of physical force and compulsion for achieving police objectives.

    Isn't that socialism? Or communism? Anyways, that's a wimpy European idea. Proper American heros are more Wyatt Earp, Dirty Harry and Jack Bauer. Civil rights are as quaint as the Geneva Convention. If you're a law-abiding citizen, why would you walk outside your gated community? Or inside after dark? Can't you afford a car? Caedite eos. Novit enim Dominus qui sunt eius!

    --

    Stephan

  73. Re:One correction by Richy_T · · Score: 1

    It authorizes the taxation, not using the funds to strongarm states into enacting laws the the federal government are not empowered to.

  74. Re:One correction by Richy_T · · Score: 1

    Hence the use of the words "backdoor" and "subversion". The 10th clearly lays out the intent for the distribution of powers, the 16th allows the collection of funds, the intent apparently being for the *running* of the federal government.

  75. All Senators should wear cameras by SummerKitty · · Score: 1

    What if we require all Senators (heck, all Congress-critters) to wear cameras? Now that would be fascinating to watch.

  76. What about MY rights? by allonoak · · Score: 1

    Am I the only one worried by the fact that I'm not perfect? That is, the more cameras we have, the more likely someone will have a recording of us doing something that, though maybe not illegal, might be damaging to our reputation. As much as I like the idea of police having record of altercations, what happens when I do make a mistake and someone recorded it? There are so many rules and laws, that if a person is recorded constantly, their imperfections (real or perceived) can be recorded and then selectively used against them.

  77. Forget Federal funding... by s13g3 · · Score: 1

    Forget Federal funding, this needs to be Federal law , plain and simple. As in, no officer testimony or evidence gathered or submitted without corresponding and complete video+audio evidence shall be admissible in a court of law, absent other strong, irrefutable and corroborating testimony or evidence originating from a non-police/non-governmental source. After all, anybody who took a basic logic or philosophy class should know that the burden of proof lies on the accuser, not the accused, and anyone who has been paying attention should know that there is absolutely no reason whatsoever to believe that police officers are somehow more honest than everyone else, or incapable of lying simply because they took some classes, swore and oath, and had a shiny piece of metal pinned on them: they are caught lying in and out of court ALL the time, on a daily basis, so why should their word be considered more reliable than anyone else's?

    Frankly, the behavior of the police has been so questionable lately that there's no reason for anyone - especially otherwise honest judges - to take them at their word, especially when they're the ones completely in control of the entire evidence-gathering process, and thus have every opportunity to rig it in their favor.

    There's just no excuse for officers NOT to be wearing cameras (particularly cell-enabled body-cameras that are constantly uploading to a remote server), much less for them to ever make an arrest or gather evidence without one running. Cost is not relevant: even if they are $1000 or $3000 each, that's still vastly cheaper than the lawsuits cities regularly pay out to as a result of police misconduct, alleged, factual, or otherwise. Cameras will help ensure officers conduct themselves professionally, knowing their behavior is being recorded impartially and will be subject to review, while simultaneously reducing false claims and ensuring that when such claims are made there is sufficient evidence to disprove them.

    --
    "Inveniemus Viam Aut Faciemus" 'We will find a way... Or we will make one!' --Hannibal of Carthage
  78. Re:One correction by david_thornley · · Score: 1

    Ability to own a handgun is something that arguably should not vary from one state to another. (If you take the "militia" thing seriously, and figure the Second only applies to military arms, then it doesn't cover handguns, but does cover machine guns and anti-tank weapons.)

    --
    "When you have eliminated the unacceptable, whatever is left, however improbable, must be the truthiness" - Holmes
  79. All senators should wear cameras by jpf · · Score: 1

    Freaking senators appear to be the most agregous violators of laws ethics, glad handing, bribe taking, special interest mongering people.

    THEY need the cameras and we need to hear the back room deals and sweatheart desks.

  80. Black police by NewYork · · Score: 1

    Why can't you let Black police deal with Black culprits?

  81. Cuts both ways. by PeterL.Berghold · · Score: 1

    I happen to be very pro law enforcement and I agree with the Senator. If body cams had been in place in Ferguson I would imagine the extremes in the story of what happened would have been cleared up over night. Video from the policeman's vest would either exonerate him or convict him. No grey areas there. If I were a policeman I'd want a vest camera.

  82. Gee... I see a market here... by PeterL.Berghold · · Score: 1

    .... wish I had the funding to set up a datacenter and possibly get the government contract to warehouse all that video. With data storage density being what it is it is well within the reach of technology to store all that data.

  83. Enumerated Powers by Agripa · · Score: 1

    Because cops wearing or not wearing cameras are in or affect the interstate commerce in cop cameras and cop camera accessories.

  84. How about.. by Druegan · · Score: 1

    We just give up on this blatantly stupid notion of taking a small minority segment of the populace, setting them apart from that populace, arming them to the teeth, giving them vast discretionary powers and a state-sanctioned monopoly on violence, and brainwashing them to believe that they are the only force that prevents civilization from decaying into absolute anarchy and that those that aren't one of them are all potential threats and miscreants?

    Because, you know.. look how well that's worked out so far....

    When police are *members* of a community, engaged with the community, approachable by the community, and not *preying* on the community.. this sort of thing doesn't happen *nearly* as much. And that only happens when the police aren't militarized and conditioned to believe in the sanctity of that "thin blue line" above everything else..