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Russian Military Forces Have Now Invaded Ukraine
SpzToid (869795) writes Those plucky "Ukrainian separatist's" ambition to join Russia have now been given Russian military support, as the Russian Army with long columns of armor have invaded Ukraine and have opened up a second warring front, in a big way. The Reuters report, interestingly, quotes a member of Putin's own advisory council on human rights describing the move as an invasion: "When masses of people, under commanders' orders, on tanks, APCs and with the use of heavy weapons, (are) on the territory of another country, cross the border, I consider this an invasion."
In Soviet Russia, border crosses troops!
Chuuch. Preach. Tabernacle.
With hastily spray-painted Ukrainian flags!
Unfortunately for those living there a lack of control of Ukraine is an existential threat to Russia, and it always has been. This is Putin and his faction basically saying "Bring it Europe/US. What are you going to do?" They're gambling that Ukrainian sovereignty is less important to the US and Europe than getting in a shooting war with Russia, and quite frankly they're probably right.
Wasn't it a wonderful, peaceful time, so long ago? Ah, those were the days.
You can't be ahead of the curve, if you're stuck in a loop.
I'm on the other side of the world and I have no idea what is going on. But we have been hearing claims of columns of Russian armored vehicles entering Ukraine every couple days for the past month. I have yet to see a photograph. In this day and age this shouldn't be too difficult. That is the least we should expect from a newspaper that is supposed to be important (and serious?).
http://www.vox.com/2014/8/27/6...
As someone else put it, Putin is aspiring to be a Dune character. Or more prosaically, he's learned a lot from watching US corporations and the US government manipulate the news cycle. Do something that will outrage the public, wait for the new furor, pull back a little, wait for the news to move on to some other subject, and try again.
This Space Intentionally Left Blank
Lets be honest. You'd complain even harder if some other nation did do something.
In a more conventional war typically the targeted nation's shipping is seized, both flagged vessels and vessels under other flags owned by those from that nation.
If I remember right, there's a treaty in place that was the result of Ukraine's voluntary handover of its nuclear weapons where it was supposed to receive defense. I'm curious to see if it'll be invoked.
Do not look into laser with remaining eye.
However...A Big Part of the issue was Ukraine wanted to join the EU and NATO, however the Ukrainian president at the time decided to side with Russia while most of the country wanted to be with the EU.
So we are in kinda of a gray zone here.
If something is so important that you feel the need to post it on the internet... It probably isn't that important.
Actually, the handover of USSR's stockpile of nuclear weapons in the Ukraine wasn't in exchange for defense, but rather in exchange for a promise from Russia that Russia will never use its military weapons to attack or intimidate the Ukraine. (See the Budapest Memorandum, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/B... )
Clearly, that agreement has been broken by Russia. Of course, I doubt any powers are going to try to exacerbate the situation by either providing the Ukraine with nuclear weapons or suggesting that Ukraine should acquire nuclear weapons, but based on my understanding of the Budapest Memorandum, Ukraine is well within its rights to do so now that Russia has breached the agreement.
My postings are informational and does not constitute legal advice. Act on it at your risk.
Eh, I'm usually a pacifist when it comes to all the pointless conflicts the US gets involved in, but unopposed military hegemony ruthlessly expanding has a .000 batting average on helping anyone but the elites of the expanding power.
This is something we saw coming, at least since the incident with Crimea. What plans were made for this? Or are they all pretending to be surprised?
Don't waste your vote! Vote for whoever you want, unless you live in a swing state it won't matter anyways
The source of this claim is the Ukrainian government, which has just suffered a setback in their campaign against the rebels. I would take their statements with a huge dose of suspicion right now, they are desperate and will say anything to try to swing opinion in their favor.
Remember during the fist Gulf War how the tearful Kuwait woman claimed that Iraqi soldiers had invaded a hospital and killed babies? A bunch of lies.
Remember how in the Second Gulf War we invaded because Saddam had WMD? Again, a bunch of lies.
Keep you pants on, let this play out, don't be so quick to believe everything you are told, consider the source, don't be a sucker every time.
Yeah, supplying weapons and lunatics crazy enough to fight our enemy has worked so well in Afghanistan, let's do that again!
We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
And for good measure, Ukraine should "sell" its ownership in the Ukrainian section of the gas pipeline to a Nato country and then shut off the flow of gas.
Cutting off the flow of gas would hurt Europe a lot more than it would hurt Russia at this point. Entering the winter with your largest gas supplier no longer providing you with the gas that you use for heating would suck. And as gas is fungible, it doesn't matter to Russia if we stop buying it from them, unless everyone else stops buying it from them - if China doesn't join in with the boycott then it just means that they'll be buying more has from Russia because the price of everyone else's gas will go up.
I am TheRaven on Soylent News
Finally they will be able to find those WMDs that the Ukranians are hiding!
Appeasement only makes the aggressor more aggressive.
Huh? Wait, we can...
Germany? Austria? Turkey? Saddle up and regain your empire from last century, the sale has begun!
We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
Yea, the rights of the Ukrainian people to choose their government be damned, this is Russian imperialism at stake here.. (sarcasm off)
"File to fit, pound to insert, paint to match" - Aircraft Maintenance 101
Better be careful what you wish for. If the rest of the world applied that standard to the USA and UK they'd have nobody to buy their bonds at all. You don't want China deciding to flex their economic muscles by playing with the bond market next time America invades some random country, do you?
This Russian move represents a serious deterioration of the world unity as we knew it, and is likely to affect most of us, directly or indirectly, and more or less severely. Yes I want to read here the various opinions on this crucial topic, moderated the /. way.
Slashdot, fix the reply notifications... You won't get away with it...
Yea, and we should close all our McDonald's operations too....
"File to fit, pound to insert, paint to match" - Aircraft Maintenance 101
No go.
Europe is quite dependent on Russian gas and oil. You'll be hard pressed to convince Europe that it should do without. And now take a wild guess where more of that money is located...
We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
Once you appear weak, and unwilling to stand for your "red lines", your competition simply won't take you seriously anymore.
Nothing Obama (or the international community for that matter) is willing to do will aver Russia from its course. At this point, the questions to be settled will be around just how much of Ukraine manages to stay independent at all.
While people may have been all pissy about Bush, unilateral wars, and Team America World Police, the fact of the matter is that it was better than the alternative. "America, Fuck Yeah" sure looks better than "America, Fuck No" at this point.
People keep repeating this but I don't think it's true.
It will be difficult in the short term but the consequences of being under Russia (Or rather the robber barons that control the failed state that carries the name Russia) are becoming too big to ignore.
China and Russia really are not friends. China's not stupid. They don't want to be dependent on them either.
The problem is, another part wanted to join Russia. When you look at their economy, that makes a damn lot of sense. The eastern Ukraine is fully dependent on Russia, if Russia nailed the border shut ... well, let's say Detroit would look like everyone's fully employed.
We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
You don't want China deciding to flex their economic muscles by playing with the bond market next time America invades some random country, do you?
Oh, I don't know. Maybe that would be a nice object less as to why it's not healthy to be buried in so much debt. Or to be policing the entire damned world on our own dime, for that matter.
Irony: Agile development has too much intertia to be abandoned now.
You do realize Moscow pays people to post in these forums right?
Yeah, supplying weapons and lunatics crazy enough to fight our enemy has worked so well in Afghanistan, let's do that again!
Ukrainians are a modern, western, civilized people. Arming them is quite different than arming religious fanatics looking to recreate the middle ages.
And besides, it did work. The Russian military suffered over 14,000 killed in Afghanistan and over 53,000 wounded. The Russians experienced actual battlefield military defeat. Not the political defeat the US is experiencing.
The west must go all out on sanctions. Gonna happen sooner or later.. and later is always bad.
did you forget to take your meds?
Wat?
I assume from your absurd statement that you consider invading Afghanistan and Iraq, then replacing their governments, is not "conquering"? Because ..... ? Because they installed a new government and then left, sorta, except they still routinely fly drones and air-strike anyone in those countries they see fit, which no truly independent country would tolerate.
Even if you use such a stupid definition of "conquer", you're attacking a straw man. I said invade, not conquer. It's indisputable that America has routinely invaded countries far away from their own borders over and over again. Any regime that boils down to "those who use military force against others gets sanctioned" would result in America being entirely cut off from the world economy for years. That clearly won't happen so this is just another case of American (and to some extent European) hypocrisy at work. Either do it consistently or don't do it at all. Preferably not at all - sanctions are based on the idea that punishing huge swathes of ordinary citizens on both sides will somehow bring about political change. How many people really believe the people are in charge of their governments foreign policies in countries like the USA?
what we have is actually only quotes from Kiev
The BBC and many other outlets have published NATO confirmations that at least 1000 Russian soldiers have entered Ukraine in this invasion. This directly contradicts your ludicrous claim, but you already knew that.
"Politicians and diapers must be changed often, and for the same reason."
/. can by some margin not become a mouthpiece for anything but what the people commenting on it want. Yes, you can tack a propaganda story to the front page. But be prepared to have it shred to pieces before long.
And since people (at least the people I know&care about) read /. for the comments rather than the stories itself, any kind of astroturfing or propaganda usually backfires VERY badly VERY quickly.
We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
That is what is really going on.
-- I ignore anonymous replies to my comments and postings.
> This is coming just days after Poroshenko dissolved his Parliament [cnn.com], there were apparently rising protests against conscription into the Ukrainian army [globalresearch.ca], and the separatists were able to make progress.
> RT is claiming that Ukrainian troops crossed into Russia, in order to defect [rt.com], and the Ukranian government admits this.
Not sure why you think it's the "other side of the story”. It has nothing to do with the story. Some elements of the Ukraine military may be defecting AND Russia may be invading. These are not mutually exclusive claims.
Yeah, supplying weapons and lunatics crazy enough to fight our enemy has worked so well in Afghanistan, let's do that again!
Most Ukrainians are secular, and those who are religious are mostly Christians. I don't see much parallel at all to Afghanistan and the things that went wrong after we double-crossed them.
Also, we wouldn't economically abandon Ukraine afterwards; all of Europe already have trade ties, and nobody is against trading with them or investing there, post-war. Heck, I've got sunflower oil from Ukraine in my kitchen right now. Afghanistan went sideways because we promised them they could be in the modern family of nations if they drove out the Russians, and that was a lie. They were abandoned to their mud huts.
Putin asked Russian parliament to withdraw its authorization of use of military forces on Ukrainian territory. And the parliament accommodated the request. So legally, there is no Russian troops in Ukraine. These must all be "self-defense" units. Oh, and if anyone in the UN believes that, I would be happy to show them a bridge that they can buy about 2-3 miles south of the UN building.
Any guest worker system is indistinguishable from indentured servitude.
As opposed to every single Russian media outlet being a Putin propaganda outlet, effectively manipulating an entire nation?
"I have downloaded hundreds and hundreds of records, why would I care if somebody downloads ours?" Robin Pecknold
How dare they? This is a dangerous precedent
Imagine if this led to another country invading countries like Iraq or Afghanistan, or launching drone strikes in Pakistan or Yemen.
The west would immediately stand up to this I would think and immediately impose sanctions on any country that would do this.
Ukraine is not Georgia. It's a country of 50 million people (to Russia's 150 million). Georgia is 3 million people, so it took much less time to invade it. Also tanks are not long-range vehicles (such as trucks, for example). They need constant maintenance.
Any guest worker system is indistinguishable from indentured servitude.
They just need to supply Ukraine with advanced weaponry. It worked in Afghanistan in the 1980s
Just who do you think we've been fighting against in Afghanistan for the last 15 years?
"A person is smart. People are dumb, panicky dangerous animals and you know it." - K
What the fuck are you talking about? This myth that Russia keeps trying to push that there are Nazis in Ukraine is only there to deflect Russian attention away from the fact that Putin's policies mirror Hitler's policies almost to the letter. Ukrainian President was elected by 53% of the vote after overthrowing the former President who was clearly a Russian puppet. Russia is taking by force what it couldn't take through bribes.
Any guest worker system is indistinguishable from indentured servitude.
As far as Russia is concerned, it doesn't recognize the legitimacy of the Ukrainian government because of the coup, so adherence to a non-binding memorandum is a non-starter.
Ukraine is Russia's Austria (to continue with the appropriate analogy between Putin and Hitler). Even Ukrainian language is as similar to Russian as Austria's German is to Germany's German.
Any guest worker system is indistinguishable from indentured servitude.
http://rt.com/news/183356-russ...
Who is to believe?
Facts are facts. And stop spreading the Russian National Socialist propaganda.
Any guest worker system is indistinguishable from indentured servitude.
Have gnu, will travel.
Arming Afghanistan wasn't the problem. Arming them in secret (so most of the population had no idea that the USA was spending half a billion dollars a year on helping them fight the USSR and felt abandoned) and then cutting off the money as soon as the USSR pulled out and leaving the country a mess, rather than helping to rebuild schools and so on was the problem.
I am TheRaven on Soylent News
That's absolutely correct, but if it's true that the Ukrainian army is so shaky then Poroshenko has every incentive to claim that his country is being invaded because he would desperately want western intervention to tip the balance.
Ukraine is well within its rights to do so now that Russia has breached the agreement.
I'm sure that in 1985, plutonium is available in every corner drugstore, but in 2014, it's a little hard to come by.
They just need to supply Ukraine with advanced weaponry. It worked in Afghanistan in the 1980s
Just who do you think we've been fighting against in Afghanistan for the last 15 years?
The people who were abandoned by the US after they inflicted military defeat upon the Russians, 14,000 killed, 53,000 wounded. The people who never received the western aid they were promised while their were fighting the Russians.
The fact remains that Russia experience actual battlefield defeat and it contributed greatly to regime change in Russia.
The US experience in Afghanistan is far far different than that of Russia. It is a political defeat not an actual battlefield defeat.
More importantly the Ukrainians are a modern, civilized people with western values and culture. Arming them is far far different than arming jihadis.
Because as a sane person your first instinct should be not to go to war. How sure are you of the situation in that country? Do you trust your information sources? How often can you be manipulated into supporting a war with disinformation before you stop being so enthusiastic about sending people to kill and get killed.
Russia and China just signed a big longterm gas and oil deal. Any amounts over that, in a scenario where Russia doesn't have other buyers, and China would be able to push the price down as far as they wanted; barely over cost.
Also, China is 9th in the world in natural gas production, and they don't use much; only 5% of their energy usage in 2012.
And they've been working hard to diversify their energy supply. They're not going to stop buying from the countries they just signed trade agreements with. Those are real victories much bigger than a short-term discount. They're also not going to convert factories to a new fuel source just to be supplied by Russia, because Russia is not an honest player; everybody knows, especially the Chinese, that they will raise your prices if you don't act like their puppet. China doesn't like being told what to do. At. All.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/N...
And as gas is fungible, it doesn't matter to Russia if we stop buying it from them
And as gas is fungible, Europe could just buy from someone other than Russia, right? ... Right?
Chuuch. Preach. Tabernacle.
It seems all governments do that at the moment. The USA even does so publicly.
Regardless, if you believe anyone who merely questions the obvious propaganda being bandied about by both sides is a paid employee of The Other Side then you're delusional. I'm hardly anonymous on this forum and my account dates back I'd guess about 13-14 years. The Guardian comment made claims that made me curious and is, at minimum, merely repeating claims made in other news outlets, which is worthy of exploration by itself.
We haven't, though. What country did we annex again? Oh, right. They all still have both political sovereignty, and also control of their legal borders. Iraq, not annexed. Grenada, not annexed. Vietnam, not annexed. Korea, not annexed. Germany, not annexed. Japan, not annexed. Panama, not annexed and we gave the canal back early. Italy, not annexed. Afghanistan, we wouldn't take it if they annexed themselves for us! Lebanon, not annexed. Libya, not annexed.
Russia doing this is the first time this has been done since the WWII-era. This is a major thing, and Russia has to lose; they have to give back the territory, or they will be economically isolated. They'll be like North Korea in 30 years unless they change course. What happens when the US and European domestic auto markets are all running electric, and Europe has enough wave and wind power to cover their winter heating? Russia's only "energy market" will be recycling their nukes to sell as fuel to France.
We all wish that US would help Ukraine with weapons and support. Ukraine is a clear victim of an unprovoked Russian aggression. Europe should not be declaring sanctions. Europe should be declaring open war to protect Ukraine from Russia, which has clearly abandoned even its own laws, and which is now ruled by the military command rather than a civilian leadership.
Any guest worker system is indistinguishable from indentured servitude.
If you think Russia is going to stand still while the west gives advanced weaponry to Kiev I've got the Brooklyn Bridge to sell you. This is a recipe for the full destabilisation of central Europe, even without a direct Russian invasion.
Wrong.
Try 20 minutes. It went up to +5 Interesting almost immediately. Now it's at zero. What's hilarious is the stream of comments on these stories claiming that Russia is manipulating online forums. All I see is that right now anyone questioning the western party line is immediately zerod out so nobody sees it. I don't think that's because of cunning governmental manipulation though. I think people are just desperate for the old days when they could feel like they were the good guys in a fight of "good vs evil". Whacking Muslims in the desert just doesn't feel as awesome as a good old fashioned America vs Russia showdown.
Everyone keeps waving around this "US debt is bad" thing like they understand how national economies work. Guess what currency the US debt is issued in? And who prints that currency?
The Obama Administration has both thumbs shoved up their collective asses while simultaneously wringing their hands in an impotent fashion (true talent folks!)
Obama: No! We Can't!
Chas - The one, the only.
THANK GOD!!!
Civ III. Civ V doesn't permit military stacks of death.
Defense official says Pentagon has evidence Russia firing missiles inside Ukraine
Russian troops 'directly' involved in Ukraine conflict: US, Kiev
Of course, if you don't believe US officials, let's instead turn to something we can all trust: money.
Markets take fright as Russian tanks roll into Ukraine
Chuuch. Preach. Tabernacle.
Well, for the US an open conflict started by China in our bond market, that would naturally leave them frozen out of it. They enjoy buying our bonds, so they'd be cutting their own nose. And as the largest bond holder, they'd be destroying their own investments. Our continued bilateral economic friendliness is a basic requirement for China to get any return on those investments.
When they're the biggest bond holder, attacking the market would risk losing their investment, and for the US, our risk is that we would have to write off a bunch of debt. We'd come out ahead in the long term; they could trash our federal budget for a couple years, but most of the US economy is private and independent of the government.
Also, in the short term the dollar would drop, and China would have increased costs in keeping their currency pegged low against. Likely it would rise. That would lower the value of their giant pot of cash, which would be growing quickly without bond purchases. They would be stuck with shrinking liquid assets where they used to have an increasing investment portfolio.
So, no. The whole situation is an object lesson in not buying somebody's debt if you want them to be your enemy; you'll only be able to afford them as friends. China may not be our "best" friend, but their economic friendliness runs deep. Trillions of dollars deep.
What you say is true but someone truly objective doesn't only say the truths that suit them and omit the rest. Ukraine was a democratic (albeit corrupt) country right up to the moment the US helped violently overthrow a pro-Russian government. US media constantly leaving out that "minor" point only further illustrates that there is very real propaganda in US as well. Media has become so centralized in the US that they are now basically all in bed with US government (also see invasion of Iraq for non-existent WMDs). When news starts to be about going "rah rah " rather than reporting objectively on situations-- it ceases to be news and becomes nationalist propaganda.
That sounds like a great plan,
Especially considering the amount of airplanes the separatists use (zilch) and the distribution of tanks among the sides - precious few on the separatists side and the whole Ukranian army on the other.
The Russian Federation is about 20 years old. It is not Russia. It's a new country which has just chosen a new path for itself. If you live in Russia, I am sorry. You have just become a citizen of Hitler's wet dream.
Any guest worker system is indistinguishable from indentured servitude.
Putin, who doesn't want to see NATO missile launchers even closer to the western border.
So to not see NATO missile launchers closer to the western border, he pushes this border to the west? What a stupid move.
It's silly to expect sanctions to accomplish much.
After WWII, the US should have had Patton march east and take care of uncle Stalin.
There was a second chance much more recently to decisively deal with the Russian problem. A bit less than ten years ago, this paper http://belfercenter.ksg.harvar... identified the US as having achieved nuclear primacy (a shorter version can be found printed in Foreign Affairs of that year). It would have been possible at the time for the US to get away with a preemptive nuclear strike against Russia. With most silos and mobile launchers on Russian territory located, a counterforce preemptive nuclear attack by the US would have resulted in the only real retaliation to be from submarine launches, which would have been few enough not to overwhelm missile defense.
The paper generated controversy and there were counterpoints from other academics and some in the military, but there was also a lot of support expressed. In any case, it's at least plausible that the US could have taken the first shot and saved an order of magnitude more pain, suffering, and deaths in the future than it would have generated. No doubt Russia's military build-up in the last decade takes this scenario out of the realm of possibility, and given the evil the russkies are doing and the tons more they've yet to perpetrate, it's a damn shame.
I expect to be modded down, as many here won't understand a sentiment generated by having survived the Soviet occupation of Eastern Europe. No, things haven't changed. The bear's beastly character is immutable, a fundamental aspect of it that can't be tamed or cured by diplomacy, education, or civilization.
"Politicians and diapers must be changed often, and for the same reason."
The question is who is the aggressor here? Lets not forget the US helped violently overthrow a pro-Russian Ukrainan government leading up to this situation.
Media slant - beware. Russians will likely tell you that this is because the humanitarian aid convoy they sent got attacked. Presumably, they are sending more supplies and defending them this time.
Which version is true? Probably the truth is somewhere in the middle. Both sides use propaganda in any confrontation - not just "the bad guys".
I run: Windows, OS X, Linux, FreeBSD. Just because you have a hammer, doesn't mean everything is a nail.
That's sort of like saying the Soviet's didn't invade anywhere during the cold war. They just supported puppet governments and militias in their place, as did America (hence Osama bin Laden being a former employee of the CIA).
You can't claim that America deciding unilaterally to engage in "regime change" to use the delightful term is respecting political sovereignty. What happens is the USA evaluates a government and if it's not one they like, sometimes they remove it by force and replace it with a new one they like better. Said country has "control of their borders" only if you ignore that the US military operates within those borders at will.
Is this a real invasion this time, or just another made-up fake invasion, like last time?
Last I heard, it sounded like the "Ukrainian separatist's" (why is that in quotes?) had the remnants of the Ukrainian army on the run, so it's probably a good time for another propaganda wave.
They said you can borrow their foreign policy, free of charge. Just call them back when you're done with this round of golf.
"Now, I doubt any of you would prefer a rolled up newspaper as a weapon against a dictator or a criminal intruder."
Amusing as it may be to contemplate some kind of strange anachronistic WW3 playing out like WW2 with gigantic armies of conscripts slugging it out, it AIN'T GONNA HAPPEN. Not that way. Nobody could afford to support that kind of effort, nor is the scenario stable. Prohibitive economics aside, long before the world could logistically even begin to mobilize, train and equip tens of millions of soldiers, someone would set off some nukes and civilization would become an historical oddity.
Europe should not be boycotting Russia. They should enter into an open military conflict. If they don't, Russia will steam roll over them. Russia has very clearly demonstrated that they will take by force what they can't take through bribery. Who says they would stop in Eastern Europe this time? The only reason they stopped in Eastern Europe last time was the Allied armies in the West. If this aggression is not checked, Hitler's war will look like a dress rehearsal compared to what Russia is about to pull off.
Any guest worker system is indistinguishable from indentured servitude.
"R" that you're quoting is the Russian government propaganda rag. You can actually check them on real events in the world, and then check back in 6 months and see what was the truth. They're full of lies every time. I wouldn't trust them for a baseball score.
Check back in 6 months, compare what they reported on this conflict to what really happened. Because they were reporting the Ukrainian protests as being a bunch of Fascists who, if they had their way, would be building concentration camps for Russian speakers. Of course, the protesters won, got new elections, and turned out to be what they appeared to be; moderate youths who want increased relations with the EU.
They'll just run on solar and wind power. Or so I've been told by greenies on /.
John McAfee 'It was like that time I hired that Bangkok prostitute; to do my taxes, while I fucked my accountant'
Balkan states are member of NATO now. If they are not defended, that would break the alliance (because NATO has never been tested as a defensive alliance and it fail its first test). Ukraine should be defended as a matter of principle. If Russia keeps it, it will permanently transform the Russian society into an expansionist military dictatorship. It's war now or surrender later. There are no good choices left.
Any guest worker system is indistinguishable from indentured servitude.
Sorry, Mr. Russian Apologist, but they would only be "in Kiev in a few days" if that is their marching orders.
If their plan is to annex the east now, and the rest next year, then no, the story will be true today, and not where you claim in "a few days."
FYI the largest US bond holder is the SS trust fund, not China.
That said the US bonds are the good part of China's bank reserves. Think about that. US bonds are the good part vs loans to central committee members children that cannot be called and are not being paid.
John McAfee 'It was like that time I hired that Bangkok prostitute; to do my taxes, while I fucked my accountant'
They only "wanted" to join Russia after Russia invaded Crimea. And only very limited number of them. Most people living in the separatist regions have either fled or would flee if they could. The commander of the "separatist" forces is a "former" KGB officer. There were no tensions... none whatsoever... before Russia created them.
Any guest worker system is indistinguishable from indentured servitude.
The majority of Ukrainians wanted to be in the EU, but Yanukovych wouldn't be able to continue raping his country for billions if that happened. It was his pay off for following Putin's orders.
-- I ignore anonymous replies to my comments and postings.
Ukraine has the right to use any and all means necessary to protect itself from this unprovoked aggression by Russia.
Any guest worker system is indistinguishable from indentured servitude.
In all fairness, Aghfan's never attacked the US... neither in the first WTC attack or on 9/11... They weren't able to or more like just didn't care to stop foreigners from using their territory as a staging area to plan attacks on the US.
That is a big difference though than trying to make it like they attacked us.
Yeah, I wouldn't take seriously the post of any AC or anyone whose slashdot id is in the last 10-20% of the id range (you can configure your slashdot settings based on that).
Any guest worker system is indistinguishable from indentured servitude.
Recent Ukrainian events summed up for those that care:
1954 Crimea was given as a "Gift" to Ukraine by Russia/USSR and Nikita Khrushchev (an ethnic Ukrainian) as a symbolic gesture commemorating the 300th anniversary of Crimea becoming part of the Russian empire.
1991 Ukraine voted overwhelmingly for independence from Russia
1994 Ukraine signed a treaty with Russia and the USA to disarm its nuclear arsenal in return for a treaty that guaranteed Russia and USA would come to their aid if they were ever invaded.
2010 Viktor Fedorovych Yanukovych was elected president. He had been a minister of an eastern Ukrainian province. The US and Europe had supported his opponent, and Russia had supported him. Likely both sides illegally influenced the election with money and espionage. In the following years, there is little doubt he ran the country in the ground, he was a terrible president.
2014 The Ukrainian parliament voted overwhelmingly to remove him from the presidential office. A poll in April showed his approval rating at 5% This event was likely assisted by the US and Europe and was basically a Coup de'etat. Russia freaked out and had Russian agents already in place in Ukraine start stiring up violent unrest. They've basically been in a state of civil war since. Russia is providing troops and hardware, the west seem a little more reluctant to provide direct support.
Russias primary goals are to keep the strategic port in the black sea open and prevent Ukraine from joining the EU.
I'm cool with politics posts if they have a link to science or technology, but this doesn't. At all. News for nerds people, news for nerds...
Yeah, the ratio of populations is about 3:1, but the ratio of personnel under arms is twice that high, and the ratio of military effectiveness is about 100:1 or 1000:1. If Russia wanted to be in Kyiv they could get it done in a few days with practically no casualties because the Ukraine military would all light out for the hills the first day of battle.
The Ukraine military can't even make it look like they can effectively engage a few ragtag rebels.
Wow that is some pretty powerful Russian propaganda you have been drinking there. Calling normal peaceful Ukranians "fascists"? Check. Calling it a "violent overthrow" despite it not being one? Check. Calling the government "ultra nationalist"? Check. Blaming the US despite them having nothing to do with anything? Check. Russians have a "right to use force"? Check.
Thanks for popping in Putin, but your deluded views aren't welcome here.
Phillip.
Property for sale in Nice, France
Actually there are minor fascist elements in Ukraine. And in Russia. And in the US. And every other place in the world.
They certainly aren't controlling any of those countries though, or any cuntries of much consequence.
So.. assuming it is "true" (and if you take at face value anything Ukraine or Russia says you are an idiot) and we apply your idea of penalties, are you also willing to apply those to western nations (ie, US, UK, France, etc...) who have use air assets to bomb other countries, sent special forces into another country (invasion!), sent military "advisors" to help rebels/"freedom fighters", etc? Or shall we just ignore the hypocrisy of it all?
Can only imagine if Ukraine were some country bordering on the US/UK/France/Germany and a similar unstable political situation existed which was at least in part fostered by Russian political meddling (as opposed to Western in Ukraine). The tanks and planes would have rolled the border long ago.
We were busy having our asses kicked by a couple of towel-heads in a foxhole. The multi-trillion dollar juggernaut of the US Military was having it's head handed to them by some IEDs and a few snipers. We couldn't fight a guerilla war with all that cold-war training, and it was already stressing our military.
Furthermore, you're missing the entire point of 10 years ago. There was no PROFIT in nuclear striking Russia. Dick Cheney wasn't interested in attacking anyone he couldn't steal money from on both sides, that's why North Korea was ignored, and Iraq was invaded.
Striking Russia wouldn't do anything except isolate the US from the rest of the world, as we'd be responsible for a Billion deaths, and we'd be spending all our time even now defending ourselves from every other country on Earth, and we'd be starving and bankrupt because China would have cut us off.
If telephones are outlawed, then only outlaws will have telephones.
It's a shame /. doesn't have a way of allowing Anonymous comments but the ability to kill them off based on an IP. Then I could read this thread without all the spam from the Russian troll above.
Phillip.
Property for sale in Nice, France
What ragtag rebels? There are no separatists. The "separatist" forces are trained Russian military personal. They are led by a "former" KGB officer. And they are supplied by Russia with heavy armament. They managed to shutdown a plane flying above the shooting distance of most ground-to-air missiles. They are extremely well-armed. One could argue that the best of Russian military equipment is what these "separatists" were using. And Ukraine has been holding off against them ok so far. If Ukraine is equipped better, Russia would be forced to start paying real prices for the gas pipe its renting from Ukraine (not to mention that it would forget any dreams of military conquest).
Any guest worker system is indistinguishable from indentured servitude.
Yes about the centralization of media but where does this come into actual decision making? Joe Schmo and his friends have little to no impact if they aren't in the top tiers of government or military. The fact is that those decision are done with or without the populations backing. I think the leaders of the world powers has far more impact on what decision will be taken than the civilian following bogus news.
China isn't going to be doing anything. They're economy is very much dependent on the US and it's butt buddies.
It hasn't. This latest invasion by Russia is of interest to all free countries in the world. Putin has provoked that start of WW3, and we can forget for now this "economic crisis" which pales into insignificance compared to this Russian aggression. And to get ourselves completely off Russian gas is going to need some new tech otherwise we are going to suffer a lot of economic pain.
Phillip.
Property for sale in Nice, France
Let's set aside the idea that RT is somehow horrendously biased and we can learn what really happened by, er, reading our totally neutral and trustworthy western newspapers.
Let's instead focus on an indisputable fact. This wonderful new parliament put in place by moderate youths who wanted only increased EU relations, on the very next day after the ex-President fled (the one who did actually win an election), voted overwhelmingly to repeal a law that made Russian an official language. Their first act wasn't to improve relations with the EU, or heal the giant rift between east and west Ukraine, their first order of business was to drive an even bigger wedge right between their own citizens.
Is it any wonder that this glorious democratic government our leaders love so much reacted to an independence movement in their country with massive military force, and has been shelling their own citizens ever since?
By the way, here's how RT reported it at the time. Seems pretty accurate to me.
I doubt the intent is to actually absorb the territory. The Crimea is the only space they actually want. This is just a buffer, either to distract focus from continuing to hold the Crimea ( best defense, is a good offense you know) with the small added possibility of generating a real buffer state during settlements out of the Eastern Ukraine past the Dnieper.
Demented But Determined.
RT is claiming that Ukrainian troops crossed into Russia, in order to defect, and the Ukranian government admits this.
Now counter these pictures of tanks entering from Russia
When the foot seeks the place of the head, the line is crossed. Know your place. Keep your place. Be a shoe.
I'm bewildered. Is this a real post or something computer generated? If the latter then the algorithms need some tweaking as it's the most bizarre drivel I have ever read.
Phillip.
Property for sale in Nice, France
Russians are being paid to flood the site with propaganda. Unfortunately it doesn't make any sense so you can't argue with it. You just have to sift through the crap to find the real comments.
Phillip.
Property for sale in Nice, France
In 1939 the west thought Hitler would stop in Czech Republic...
In 2008 the West thought Putin would stop in Georgia...
In all fairness, Aghfan's never attacked the US... neither in the first WTC attack or on 9/11... They weren't able to or more like just didn't care to stop foreigners from using their territory as a staging area to plan attacks on the US.
That is a big difference though than trying to make it like they attacked us.
However the Afghan Taliban government did provide refuge and support to the people who did. And refused to expel them from their territory after 9/11, but rather continued to provide them refuge and support. If the Afghan Taliban government had turned over al-qaeda leaders or at least expelled them from their country there would never have been an invasion. The Afghan Talban government was targeted precisely because of their continued support for al-queda and those al-queda leaders who literally planned and organized the attack.
This is a very big point of fact that you are overlooking.
Alternately, all these things you've been claiming are lies are actually true, and this is just the logical conclusion of continued Russian involvement.
Supporter of the +1 Over Dramatic mod option. In memory of apk.
A bit like they were not invading the Crimean region of Ukraine?
Phillip.
PS you should probably look at a map. Ukraine is quite big.
Property for sale in Nice, France
No, the current regime of Russia is a text book Nationalist Socialist regime. Russia is currently a text-book Nazi state. So the factions in Russia which are Nazi are not minor. They are the government.
Any guest worker system is indistinguishable from indentured servitude.
That's a rather one-sided view of what happened. Yes, the Soviet Union did invade Afghanistan as part of pushing its global ideology, much like the USA invaded Vietnam. But the stone age state of Afghanistan at the time of the US invasion in 2001 was a direct result of America supporting religious fanatics in a proxy war, the mujahideen, who after the war ended and the Soviet's were defeated went on to become the Taliban. That's why bin Laden is so famously a former ally of the US.
The USA is not only building an empire but doing so in plain sight of everyone. To quote Putin directly:
This principle is most clearly visible in two acts. One is that the sanctions on Iran are built as a "you're with us or against us" model. Any country that is seen by America to be "undermining" the sanctions i.e. not joining in is itself sanctioned. And the second act is again sanctions based: every financial institution in the world is being taken over by Washington via a system of recursive ("viral" if you like) sanctions that require banks to obey the USA even if that would contradict local laws. The goal is to collect tax from American's abroad. It's called FATCA and it's resulted in many, many nations having to repeal their own privacy laws, in order to allow banks to become agents of the US Government. They were given no choice in the matter.
So the USA has found ways of forcing people in countries all over the world to: (a) engage in economic warfare against America's enemies and (b) pay taxes directly to America, all regardless of what the local government wants or how the local people vote.
Being able to conscript people to their fights and force payment of taxes is the very foundation of empire itself.
Don't forget that before this whole mess, the Ukrainian president was going to the EU hat in hand asking for 15 Billion Euros to pay off debts paid to Russia and to fix its infrastructure. Speaking of which, their infrastructure is in complete shambles. When Russia first took Crimea a couple days later the Russian minister of fiance was bitching about how much is was going to cost to fix Crimea (something like 15 Billion over 3 years).
So by all means, if Russia wants to take over Ukraine an incur the expense of actually fixing Ukraine... excellent, I suspect very quickly the whole thing will be a pyrrhic victory.
Also, while they're expending their military forces trying to keep the Ukrainians from engaging in an insurgency against them, we're going to keep putting the screws to them on the global market, causing their currency to go into an inflationary spiral.
As of right now, the Europeans have been hesitant about criticizing Russia too heavy because of fears about their gas supply. However, I can't imagine the Europeans will say nothing if Russia rolls in the tanks. Possibly we'll start shipping NG to the Europeans to further undercut the Russians? Who knows.
However, now that Russia has banned food imports from the EU and the US. How long before the standard of living starts spiraling downwards? I don't imagine that Putin would starve his own people, but who knows?
Yes Francis, the world has gone crazy.
In contrast to that, the majority of Germans regrets that their country was a totalitarian monster 70-80 years ago. Regardless of the fact that Hitler's Germany was the single strongest country of that time and was undoubtedly feared.
Hurghada - odprawa paszportowa:
-Nationality?
--Russian
-Occupation?
--No, just visiting.
(from a friend in Poland.)
I clearly meant the largest holder that isn't... ourselves. In the context of trade wars and international relations, it should be assumed that the external parts are being discussed.
Loans to them don't matter, because the debt is mostly one-way, China buying US bonds. A tiny bit of debt in the other way can be subtracted off the top and ignored. Doesn't matter who it is to or the details, because it is a tiny, tiny bit.
If they wish to engage to aggression against other country's sovereignty, they should do it without the rest of the world helping fund them.
EU countries pay Putin billions of dollars for gas (some of them are close to 100% dependent on Russian gas). The only kind of sanctions that would really harm Putin would be reducing gas imports. It's VERY hard to do in a short time and many EU countries event don't try to do that.
Tend to agree. The US wouldn't have any problem with the rebel forces, but just about anybody else would. Now that Russia is pulling out all the stops even the US would take care before intervening - they have some serious air defenses that are potentially effective against even stealth aircraft. I suspect the US could still overwhelm them, but it wouldn't be bloodless even if limited to an air war, and I doubt any battles would remain contained to the region.
I'm painfully aware of my own country's misdeeds in the past re: land grabs. But the pattern is clear and we must not forget the lesson: A bully like Hitler in 1938, or Putin in 2014, only has his appetite increased by eating. The West can stop Putin now at a small cost, or deal with him in a few years at a staggering cost. The Russian people deserve better than what will happen to them eventually under Putin's direction. Berlin 1945 == Moscow 2020. For the sake of ordinary Russians, if no one else, Putin's gang must be checked *hard* in their attempts to eat Ukraine piece by piece.
Fomer Soviet states and some European countries in a bag. Each one looks like a potato chip. Putin has Ukraine half way in his mouth. Caption. "I'm only going to eat one".
For all intensive purposes, "whom" is no longer a word. That begs the question, "who cares"?
From the Twitter archives:
POTUS nails Mitt for saying Russia our #1 geostrategic threat. "The 1980's called. They want their foreign policy back." Bam!
-- Paul Begala (@PaulBegala) October 23, 2012
And for good measure, Ukraine should "sell" its ownership in the Ukrainian section of the gas pipeline to a Nato country and then shut off the flow of gas.
Cutting off the flow of gas would hurt Europe a lot more than it would hurt Russia at this point. Entering the winter with your largest gas supplier no longer providing you with the gas that you use for heating would suck. And as gas is fungible, it doesn't matter to Russia if we stop buying it from them, unless everyone else stops buying it from them - if China doesn't join in with the boycott then it just means that they'll be buying more has from Russia because the price of everyone else's gas will go up.
No Russian economy depends on this income, it make up a significant part of their entire national GDP, meanwhile Europe has been finding other alternative sources of energy in case Russia would cut of the supply again as they did after the sanction put on them for the invasion of Georgia. And the gas is not fungible, it would take over a year to build new pipelines to other countries, especially China is a long long way away from the gas going to Europe. Russia would be completely and utterly fucked without the gas, in Europe it would just hurt the home owner who has invested in natural gas heating to save money, they would not be saving money anymore.
Yeah, that's right mods, label that as funny.
A quick solution to this problem is for the USA to ship a pallet of nukes to Ukraine. Or even just the fissionable material. Even on the sly.
Ukraine would announce it's a nuclear power again and would detonate a bomb on it's soil between the currently contested cities as a giant "BACK OFF BITCH" to Russia.
Then it's Russia's move.
Sane first world nations don't invade first world nations. It's time to remind people of why.
Did the news for get that Russia invaded Ukraine months ago, and is still actively occupying part of the country? Nothing happened then. We couldn't even get decent sanctions together. The worst thing we can do is get involved, because the west never finishes anything. We'll pop in for some support, rally up their population and then leave them with their asses in the wind. None of that matters, because we aren't going to do a damn thing. World powers don't fight world powers anymore, it sends a bad message to smaller nations.
X
Is that when you buy US Treasuries, you don't actually get anything. They don't send you a magic stone with powers to call in a debt. What happens is there's an entry made in a computer database, a computer that is in the US.
What this means is that the US ultimately has control over the repayment. Now both legally and practically the US is obligated to repay their securities per the agreed upon terms. However, that goes out the window in the case of a war. US law allows the freezing/seizing of assets, and other countries would have no problem with the idea.
So a situation could arise where the US simply declares China's holdings to be invalid and null. So long as the other bond holders are ok with this, and the (US) courts see it as legal, then China suddenly loses over a trillion dollars in investments. They can't just run off and sell them or something, they have nothing to sell. This would tank the renminbi and really screw China over. It actually could have a positive impact on the US, particularly if the other bond holders saw this as a positive (because the US owes less) and trusted that it wouldn't happen to them.
A country selling treasury notes isn't like taking out a loan with a loan shark. It works really different. US securities are:
1) Denominated in US dollars, and thus only worth something if the dollar is.
2) Payable on defined schedules, with no ability to "call in" the loan early.
3) Nothing more than promises to pay from the US government, and thus only valid if the government decides they will pay.
USA goes and polices and we get chastised for it. We don't police and keep countries in check and we get chastised for it.
What we need is the EU/UN to actually get off their asses and do something. This is happening right next door to them but they just don't want their oil and gas disrupted. The only country that is moderately energy independent of Russian gas/oil would be the UK and they are not going to go in it alone. We really need the France, UK, and Germany to step in if we want to see Putin stopped.
Politifact rates it as only "half true." http://www.politifact.com/pund...
Here is another Russian source that includes some relevant facts you left out, mainly the part about Ukraine having not actually done what you accuse because you excessively focus on a "vote" when there are more steps than a single vote for a law to be enacted, or repealed. The law wasn't repealed. http://en.ria.ru/world/2014030...
Reading your description, or the RT description, it would appear that the pro-EU groups in Ukraine supported the repeal. The fact is that the Parliament took an unpopular vote, that resulted in Ukrainian speakers in Kyiv protesting(!), and none of the major pro-EU politicians supported that vote. None of the pro-EU candidates in the recent elections supported repealing the 2012 law.
So while it is "half true" that they voted to repeal the law, it is not true as stated, and certainly not true in the claimed implication that the pro-EU Ukrainians are anti-Russian-speakers.
Here is an in-depth analysis. https://www.opendemocracy.net/...
A member of Putin's advisory council on human rights goes missing.
"Happy families are all alike; every unhappy family is unhappy in its own way." -- Anna Karenina by Leo Tolstoy
That doesn't make any sense. The agreement was with a country, not with a particular government, and not tied in any way to the duration of said government. They can "not recognize" the current one many times over, but crossing the border with armed troops is still a violation.
About half of all of Ukraine's power is generated by nuclear power plants. And those all date back to Soviet days, and are "dual use" (meaning that they can be used to produce plutonium). What they lack is the reprocessing capability to do so, but that is much easier to build up.
Very well. When are you leaving for the front?
China's banks hold US bonds as reserves. When (not if) the bonds lose value the banks become more unstable.
But nobody really knows how bad the Chinese banking system is. It's too opaque. I bet even the Chinese bankers don't know how many non-performing loans they continue to carry as good assets.
John McAfee 'It was like that time I hired that Bangkok prostitute; to do my taxes, while I fucked my accountant'
The problem is, a tiny part wanted to join Russia outright, basically the part the got all the money from Russian naval bases and with a heavy contingent of Russian navy families. Remember that the self proclaimed leader of Crimea was a politician who only got 2% of the vote in the last elections, basically a nobody with no support. After Russia "took it back" then the part of Ukraine which is *mixed* ethnically had a bunch of rebels who felt they could secede also (hurray for the mother country and father Putin!), tried to recreate the fiction that Crimea had and declared their own government, then waited for Russia to help out.
The economy is a mess because of Putin's hand picked oligarch who stole all the money. He stole more than the 15 billion they were asking to get from EU to fix the mess. Most non Russian speakers *hated* Yanukovynch. But they kick out the thief (possibly legally, possibly not) and Russian leaning citizens freak out and start calling the rest of Ukraine fascists (the most ridiculous claim in the whole thing). And Russia helps out by fanning the flames. If Russian had not treated the orange revolution as a supreme insult then Ukraine might have emerged as a major state straddling east and west with a strong economy.
Sorry guys, but Russia hasn't invaded Ukraine. There are Russian nationals who are independently fighting in the Ukraine, and no doubt Russia has covert operatives in Ukraine, but there is no large scale ground invasion. There is no confirmation of Moscow supported troops, overt ones at least, when we can easily get satellite images or actual proof other than someone saying, Russia is invading. This is just more anti-Russian pretext. The closest place Russian troops are present in large numbers is Crimea, which sorry to say has seceded from Ukraine and was annexed by Russia, whether anyone else wants to acknowledge it or not. Hooray for unsubstantiated articles.
Germany? Austria? Turkey? Saddle up and regain your empire from last century, the sale has begun!
Better not tell Mongolia (e.g., Genghis Khan's relatives)...
These words are not spoken by the Cpt Picard I know and love. IMPOSTER!!!!!
Yeah but there is a large number of ethnic Russians in eastern Ukraine and many are sympathetic to Putin. I predict the country will be partitioned: Western Ukraine will align itself with Europe and be fast-tracked for NATO membership, and Eastern Ukraine will fall under Russian control.
"Could be worse...could be raining." Igor
Scaremongering much?
We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
More like "America, Fuck Off".
I'm sure that in 1985, plutonium is available in every corner drugstore, but in 2014, it's a little hard to come by.
LOL Why is this insightful?! Does nobody remember Back to the Future?!
Perfectly timed quote. :)
putin claimed his terrorists bought weapons in some stores somewhere. ukrainians could buy anything in some countryside store, i guess...
Rich
Why not just offer the Ukranian government a dozen nukes? Just basically offer nuclear deterrence...
If the reports are, in fact true, and the Russian troops have crossed into Ukraine, there are no good choices left. It's regional war now or World War later. Putin has been positioning to break NATO for the past few years. If he takes Ukraine, he'll put it into full military production mode (it's a large producer of steel). And once he can steam roll over Balkans, he will have invaded a NATO member. France has entered into a material agreement to sell Russia an aircraft carrier within the past 6 months (effectively surrendering in this war before it started... France does have its traditions). Which means France will not honor its NATO obligations. Germany will surrender (out of guilt if nothing else... they will not want to fight a war against Russia). Who's left? Spain? Portugal? Italy? Poland? Actually, Poland might save Europe again. It'll be a tough fight, but if it gets that far, it's already a World War. Regional war now or World War later. No good choices left.
Any guest worker system is indistinguishable from indentured servitude.
Same EXACT crew who declared Iraqi WMD confirmed fact.
How many times will you be neo-conned, by the "bogey-man dictator" ploy?
"Flyin' in just a sweet place,
Never been known to fail..."
Not that this will go anywhere but deaf ears, in part because there is a systemic pro-US push on every western website you care to name:
Early 1990's US suffers economic collapse
Texas and several other states secede from the union
Texas produces over half of the US military equipment, a good portion of the food, and can make nuclear weapons
The US keeps these states, especially Texas, within their sphere of influence through economic deals, US Oil pipelines run to South America through Texas
Texas has economic troubles, the US offers no-strings attached bailouts to keep Texas within its sphere of influence
The Soviet Union offers bailouts if Texas implement austerity measures, with the possibility of joining the South American Union and Warsaw Pact at a later date
There is talk in the media that the Soviet Union needs to put a missile defense shield in Texas once it's in the Warsaw Pact to protect itself and South America from Canadian aggression (They have the ability to make nukes, after all)
The US balks at all of this
Texan government takes the US deal, there are small protests in Texas where people argue they're better off with the Soviet Union, they want to split away from the US
These protestors are mostly left-leaning
The Soviet Union funds these protests and they go from small to large: Eventually the protestors perform a coup, replacing the Texan government; evidence (actual recorded phone calls) surface of false flag shootings being used to instigate tensions and violence
The right-leaning people in Texas are appalled, they start a separatist movement in several counties
The Texan government sends in its military to crush the separatist movement
The US begins funding and supplying the separatists with weapons and volunteers to help them
The Soviet Union paints the US as the aggressor, trying to threaten the world and annex countries like Hitler
As someone who has been looking at BOTH sides of this issue I'm fucking amazed that anyone paints Russia with such broad strokes as literal "Bad Guys". Everything they are doing makes sense geopolitically and nationally. Ukraine in NATO with a 'missile defense' in place against 'Iran'. Who are we kidding?
Once you look at the situation as it could apply to the US, it makes it easier to see through the utter bullshit propaganda. This entire thing is nothing more than NATO and the US encroaching on Russia's sphere of influence and territory. Russia ABSOLUTELY will go WW3 over Ukraine. The possibility of US/NATO nuclear weapons sitting in Ukraine is something Russia will not allow to happen, the loss of half of Russia's arms manufacturing cannot be allowed to happen. Ukraine is the first step to a first strike nuclear war scenario that could actually work.
I feel like I'm living in bizarro world where everyone has lost their marbles. I'm Canadian and even I don't support what the US has attempted to do in Ukraine. I'm sure some people will think I'm just eating up russian propaganda that I can't even read, but the truth is that I'm just not blindly siding with America. What the US is doing in Europe is pushing us towards thermonuclear war.
The American and European people need to find our marbles again. This is fucking crazy.
What country did we annex again? Oh, right.
Commonwealth of Puerto Rico, American Samoa, Guam, Northern Mariana Islands come to mind.
Apocalypse Cancelled, Sorry, No Ticket Refunds
Interesting. First time I hear of these accusations.
Do you have any proof to back this up?
To import natural gas, you either need pipelines connected to your supplier, or a seaport capable of deliquifying natural gas. Of course, your supplier needs to have seaports capable of liquifying natural gas for transport.
LNG Terminals
There are three plants in the Americas-- Atlantic, in Trinidad-Tobago. Kenai, in Alaska. and Peru. A further plant is being built in Louisiana, Cheniere Sabine, Pass which is currently boasting of its expansion to a bi directional facility, meaning of course, that it currently only has facilities for importing gas, not exporting it
So, not quite fungible. Not nearly as much as petroleum.
Some of us are even more sorry right now. Not that it matters - several lonely voices of reason wouldn't stop this juggernaut of madness that our media had become. And people here still mostly do believe our media.
Absence of proof != proof of absence.
There is neither petrol nor american interests to protect. Much like Serbia a couple of decades ago.
Building schools after you've been seen to come in and overthrow their government doesn't buy you nearly as much goodwill as building schools after you've just helped them overthrow a foreign invader and then removed your military presence from the country.
I am TheRaven on Soylent News
That is like so easy, right? Putin did not enter into a treaty with a government, but with a country. The country is still standing. This Ukrainian government has dissolved the parliament and is holding elections. Putin does not want to wait for the outcome, he already knows they are not going to be favourable to the Russian side.
Let' all go and start WWIII. I think Putin is dangerous but not that crazy.
You are right, but Ukrainian government is ultra-nationalist. Most of them come from west Ukraine, which has always been a hot bed for Ukrainian nationalism.
Also note that since the crisis started, even before military conflict in the east, the government in Kiev has offered NOTHING to pacify the east. People in the east have been asking for a long time that they should have the right to elect their governors (right now they're appointed by Kiev) and they want a formal recognition of Russian language as an official language at least within their region. Kiev hasn't offered anything at all to them. Not even a draft new constitution. Nothing.
A lot of this is already happening. In my opinion the Western sanctions are working. The Russian economy is visibly crumbling: high inflation, high interest rates, collapsing auto market, bankrupted tour operators leave thousands of Russians stranded abroad, huge capital flight, etc, and sanctions were enabled just a couple of months ago. Given it a year, and Russian economy will be in a deep recession. It will be interesting how Putin will respond because his unspoken contract with Russian people was that they will accept an authoritarian government in exchange for economic stability.
Mod parent up. Exceptionally informative.
Chuuch. Preach. Tabernacle.
Berlin 1945 == Moscow 2020
Not really. Germany was screwed by the victors after the first world war. Crippling reparations made life impossible there, and the people became angry and resentful. The Nazis used that to their advantage. Russians today on the other hand have a relatively good standard of living and the problems there are no-where near as bad as Germany was. The Ukraine is one specific issue where clearly a lot of people living there want to be part of Russia.
I find it ironic how some western countries, particularly the US and UK, are saying pretty much what Russia was saying when they invaded various countries in the name of protecting the population and democracy. Like we did Russia is saying they want to see meaningful dialogue and negotiation for those parts of Ukraine that want to be independent or part of Russia, i.e. respect for their democratic will. Like Russia did we are now accusing the "invaders" of having all kinds of ulterior motives and bring on the brink of starting a major war.
const int one = 65536; (Silvermoon, Texture.cs)
SJW, n: "Someone I don't like, and by the way I'm a fuckwit" - AC
Id imagine once our country gets its priorities in order and locates its courage and resolve.
Now we DON'T INVADE IRAN!
And then they lived happily ever after. Seriously, do you WANT to invade Iran? WTF is wrong with you?
The 70's called. They want to know what we thought was wrong with their foreign policy.
I'm just impressed that Putin thinks it worth putting that many astroturfers into Slashdot. You'd think he respected us or something.
"When you have eliminated the unacceptable, whatever is left, however improbable, must be the truthiness" - Holmes
Remember the old saying (slightly modified for modern times): If you owe the bank a million dollars, you've got a problem. If you owe the bank a billion dollars, they've got a problem.
"When you have eliminated the unacceptable, whatever is left, however improbable, must be the truthiness" - Holmes
Ukraine is not a member of NATO. So far, Russia hasn't attacked a NATO member, although they've rattled their sabers at Latvia. There's a firm line, but Putin isn't crossing it yet.
"When you have eliminated the unacceptable, whatever is left, however improbable, must be the truthiness" - Holmes
It's Russia. The Soviet Union was, basically, Russia (even if ruled by a Georgian for a long time). There's too much continuity in the policies. Putin, like Nicholas and Stalin before him, wants to be, functionally, Tsar.
"When you have eliminated the unacceptable, whatever is left, however improbable, must be the truthiness" - Holmes
I don't see it as the Russian National Socialist propaganda. I see it as the neo-Tsarist propaganda.
"When you have eliminated the unacceptable, whatever is left, however improbable, must be the truthiness" - Holmes
This also from an interview Merkel gave to public German TV yesterday:
Especially the last point is clearly a big step back from the earlier all out "Ukraine is EU" position.
Additionally to the economic side, pressure on Merkel also grows because there is more and more doubt, even in German mainstream media, about the veracity of the Ukrainian propaganda and about the destruction of flight MH17. Why is there is no news about it? Is there a coverup (in German)?
"Flyin' in just a sweet place,
Never been known to fail..."
A nuclear Iran would destabilize the Mideast even further
I think the we've done about as much of that as possible. I mean, hundreds of thousands of dead civilians isn't exactly "stable".
Would a nuclear Iran be destabilizing? I imagine it'd be as destabilizing as a nuclear Israel. They haven't nuked anyone yet, and hopefully never will.
Seriously though, what do you think would happen if Russia gave Iran a handful of nukes? Spell out the scenario. I'm honestly interested in what you think.
But they fled to Russia... 814,000 of them so far... something is wrong with your calculations. Wouldn't they flee to Kiev or further into EU if they wanted to be in EU?
If programs would be read like poetry, most programmers would be Vogons.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/shared...
Casteism
Steel. Ukraine is a large manufacturer of steel which Russia would utilize in revamping its economy into a war mode. This is only a regional war if Russia loses. If Russia is allowed to win this, it will creep its way into becoming a World War.
Any guest worker system is indistinguishable from indentured servitude.
Again with all these conspiracy theories about Western involvement in Ukraine. The thing about conspiracy theories is that they never hold up when you apply common sense.
There is only one major nation for which the situation in Ukraine is of critical importance: Russia. If EU membership led to a flood of Gean, French, and British investment in Ukrainian oil production, Russia would no longer have a monopoly on oil exports to the rest of Europe. This would be a disaster for the Russian oil oligarchs that keep Putin in power. From the perspective of EU businessmen, however, it matters little whether they invest in Ukraine or Russia. Meanwhile, the average American probably wouldn't even be able to point Ukraine out on a map.
So who has the vested interest in interfering in Ukrainian politics? Moreover, who has a history of interfering in Ukrainian politics? That's right, Russia. Are you forgetting that the KGB tried to assassinate Yushchenko in 2014? Of course Russia and their lackey Yanukovych claimed that Yushchenko poisoined and nearly killed himself to win sympathy from voters, because that is something that a sane person would do. (Note the heavy sarcasm.)
So no, the protests in Kiev were not engineered by the CIA; they were grassroots. Just because you read it on RIA Novosti, doesn't make it true.
The problem is that no matter what happens we'll lose.
Either Putin responds in kind and we got WW3.
Or he does not, which will most likely be the start of his downfall, which makes it quite likely to get an even bigger bastard in power. And then we get WW3, with an opponent that's even worse than Stalin, I mean Putin.
We're playing with fire here. It seems we want to "reign in" Putin, without considering what would happen if we actually succeeded.
We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
Russian Military Forces Have, For Months Now, Repeatedly and Constantly Invaded Ukraine
--- Say something clever. Pretend it was me. Thanks.
You seem to have drunk the Kool-Aide if you believe that the west (aka, EU, US) have had no involvement in the ongoing (over a decade) political instability in Ukraine. Here are just a few oldies but goodies
http://www.atimes.com/atimes/G...
http://www.theguardian.com/wor...
http://monthlyreview.org/2006/...
And of course there is the very long history of CIA and MI6 meddling in the internal affairs of, well, just about every country in the world.
Intercepted conversation was published in local Pskov media, editor was heavily beaten for these activities,
snapshot from cache, original publication was taken down:
http://web.archive.org/web/201...
Authentic rude Russian language, swearing every second word, sorry it may be hard for automatic translators.
Describes to caller activities of his team of about 90 troopers on territory of Ukraine at 10AM of August 20th, with about 80 killed on spot.
For those, who still can't see war going on: nothing new - you are supposed to continue your way.
Servant of karma
"Even Ukrainian language is as similar to Russian as Austria's German is to Germany's German." :)
Did you even bother checking Wiki on the Ukrainian language? How does that foot taste?