Microsoft's Asimov System To Monitor Users' Machines In Real Time

SmartAboutThings writes Microsoft will monitor users in the new Windows 9 Operating System in order to determine how the new OS is used, thus decide what tweaks and changes are need to be made. During Windows 8 testing, Microsoft said that they had data showing Start Menu usage had dropped, but it seems that the tools they were using at the time weren't as evolved as the new 'Asimov' monitor. The new system is codenamed 'Asimov' and will provide a near real-time view of what is happening on users' machines. Rest assured, the data is going to be obscured and aggregated, but intelligible enough to allow Microsoft to get detailed insights into user interactions with the OS. Mary Jo Foley says that the system was originally built by the Xbox Team and now is being used by the Windows team. Users who will download the technical preview of Windows 9, which is said to get unveiled today, will become 'power users' who will utilize the platform in unique scenarios. This will help Microsoft identify any odd bugs ahead of the final release.

Comments

"Rest assured, the data is going to be obscured"

[Cornwallis]

Ha ha ha ha ha. Ha ha ha ha ha. Ha ha ha ha ha. Ha ha ha ha ha.

Your comment violated the "postercomment" compression filter. Try less whitespace and/or less repetition.

Start menu usage dropped in lieu of what?

[mwvdlee]

Prior to Windows 8, what exactly where people using to start applications if they were not using the start menu?
Or did they just notice the start menu was being used less often because people were keeping applications open?

Re:Start menu usage dropped in lieu of what?

[Anonymous Coward]

If it is anything like my wife it is a dizzying array of icons on the desktop.

Re:Start menu usage dropped in lieu of what?

[just_another_sean]

Pinning to the task bar eliminates a good bit of Start Menu usage - especially when you pin the Run command to the task bar. And some folks still seem to love using the Desktop as both Program Manager and Documents folder.

Re:Start menu usage dropped in lieu of what?

[rwise2112]

Prior to Windows 8, what exactly where people using to start applications if they were not using the start menu? Or did they just notice the start menu was being used less often because people were keeping applications open?

90% of the people I see using windows have the desktop covered with icons to launch everything.

Re:Start menu usage dropped in lieu of what?

[TWX]

I donno about you, but as the Start Menu got more and more cluttered since its debut with Windows 95 I've tended to put stuff in the quicklaunch area, or for commands with short names that have had the same name for many years, Window+R -> exename worked well too. Now that the Start Screen is so intrusive I've doubled-down on Win+R and on "pinning" things to the taskbar.

Re:Start menu usage dropped in lieu of what?

[Anonymous Coward]

The majority of people pin things to the start menu or shortcut on the desktop. I kept the few applications I used on a daily basis pinned to the start menu. The rest I would use the start menu for, but that was a rare occurrence.

Re:Start menu usage dropped in lieu of what?

[Barlo_Mung_42]

Pinning things to the task bar is the way to go. I almost never need to use the start page.

Re:Start menu usage dropped in lieu of what?

[Willuz]

Classic Start Menu. I've been using it since Vista (ok 7 really because i skipped Vista). I wonder if their spyware will be able to detect usage of 3rd party replacements because Classic Start Menu is used by a great many people who believe in adding new features without giving up the old ones.

Re:Start menu usage dropped in lieu of what?

[rudy_wayne]

Prior to Windows 8, what exactly where people using to start applications if they were not using the start menu?
Or did they just notice the start menu was being used less often because people were keeping applications open?

90% of the people I see using windows have the desktop covered with icons to launch everything.

This is probably true, but it also illustrates the problem with Microsoft removing the Start Menu.

Removing the Start Menu provides zero benefit to the people who don't use it (they don't use it so they don't care if it's gone and removing it has no effect on how they do things) and makes things more difficult for the people who do use it.

Re:Start menu usage dropped in lieu of what?

[i kan reed]

Well, there's always the fact that people go to open it and are like "oh yeah, windows 8 and metro" and vomit uncontrollably for a few minutes.

Re:Start menu usage dropped in lieu of what?

[Richard_at_work]

From Windows 98 onward you had the shortcut bars which you could create on the task bar - thats where the majority of my most often used applications were started from.

That morphed into pinning applications to the task bar in Windows 7, and became much more useful as pinning an application and running that same application took up no more room on the task bar, so you could have more.

These days I pretty much have all my applications pinned to the task bar, and I hit the start menu probably once or twice a week, if that. I can lock the computer, minimise all windows, start applications, open task manager, get to the control panel and lots of other things via either interaction with the task bar itself or via keyboard shortcuts, where as before I had to use the start menu for a lot of that.

Re:Start menu usage dropped in lieu of what?

[nine-times]

I remember when they were talking about this research at the time. If I remember correctly, they found that most people rarely hunted through the start menu "Programs" menu. They pinned applications to their task bar, or they put shortcuts on their desktop. If they used the start menu, they usually either used the search function or the list of applications that were pinned to the start menu.

This lead them to think that the Windows 8 UI would be fine, since you could still search, and you could still pin applications to the Start screen. It seems they figured, if most people aren't using the other features of the Start menu, we can provide a solution that only includes the two features people do use, and everyone will be happy for the simplified solution. Apparently they are now admitting that their approach was flawed or insufficient.

Re:Start menu usage dropped in lieu of what?

[Jason Levine]

I use a program (Free Launch Bar) to turn my task bar into a series of menus where I keep shortcuts to my most used applications grouped by subject. My "Internet" menu has Chrome, IE (used for testing websites), Firefox, etc. My "Web Development" group has my editor, programs to push development files live, etc. My "Multimedia" group has image editors, audio players/editors, video conversion tools, etc. By doing this, I know exactly where all my often-used programs are and I don't need to scroll through the cluttered Start Menu except for those rare occasions when I'm running a not-so-often used program.

Re:Start menu usage dropped in lieu of what?

[jones_supa]

It's a shame that the same ugly style is now being incorporated to the Start Menu too. I think it's a big step backwards from the nice looking Windows 7 Start Menu.

Re:Start menu usage dropped in lieu of what?

[jkrise]

I've been using a desktop for more than 15 years. It is not a good habit to pin apps to the task bar. Putting up the shortcuts for the browser and email client is good enough most of the time.

When rarely used apps need to be called up, the Start Menu is the best way to do it.

Using a keyboard instead of a mouse on the desktop is like using the mouth instead of the penis for sex. Some like you seem to like it that way but do not speak for the rest of us.

Re:Start menu usage dropped in lieu of what?

[Entropius]

Why not give users the option to use both?

The dumb thing is pinning a run command to the task bar: this requires both mouse input and keyboard input to do anything. It's far more sensible to use a keyboard shortcut for "run"; I can type alt-f2 (linux) or meta-R (windows) and then a program name and get it without reaching for the mouse.

Re:Start menu usage dropped in lieu of what?

[Anonymous Coward]

Classic Start Menu.

Yep. On my work laptop (where we're required to run Windows), the godawful Windows 7 menu is replaced by the Windows 2000 style menu. The XP style menu is tolerable, but not nearly as nice as the 2000 style menu. I can't imagine what a Windows 8 PC would be like, and have never actually seen one. BTW, everyone here seems to be on Windows 7 or Linux or OSX.

Re:Start menu usage dropped in lieu of what?

[UnknownSoldier]

> I've been using a desktop for more than 15 years. It is not a good habit to pin apps to the task bar.

??

So instead of 1-click lets force a minimum of 2 clicks ... first on the Start button, second on the app. Sarcasm ... gee, that's progress. NOT.

Pinning commonly used apps to the task bar is perfectly fine.

> When rarely used apps need to be called up, the Start Menu is the best way to do it.

So your "best" way for _you_ is automagically the "best" way for _everyone_ ??

Some people use shortcut keys to launch applications. Some don't. Some people put icons on the desktop. Some don't. Some use the menu. Some don't. Some use the task bar. Some don't.

That's the "problem" with UI. Not everyone uses it the _same_ way.

People organize (or don't) how they want to launch app.

Re:Start menu usage dropped in lieu of what?

[LordWabbit2]

I disagree, what's the harm in pinning your most commonly used programs to the task bar? You do realise that right clicking most programs (Visual studio, any office program even UltraEdit) brings up a convenient list of recently open documents / projects. For outlook you can create new emails, appointments etc without having to go into Outlook.

Re:Start menu usage dropped in lieu of what?

[Anonymous Brave Guy]

It is not a good habit to pin apps to the task bar.

Why? I have a large screen and have literally every application I use on a regular basis pinned, as well as Explorer with the directories I most often want to open. For me, the task bar and jump lists were the two UI developments that made Windows 7 a significant win over XP. Most days I don't even open the Start menu except, ironically, to shut Windows down at the end of the day.

Re:Start menu usage dropped in lieu of what?

[Andtalath]

Except that pinning them allows super+# to launch and switch to programs.

Almost as good as workspaces in many cases.

Re:Start menu usage dropped in lieu of what?

[operagost]

The problem is that searching now requires hunting for a hidden menu, which rarely appears even when you know where to point (especially in a remote session). Then, when you have it, you have to click again to change where you search, then type what you are looking for. I've gone old school-- I've relearned all the hot keys (Win+F for search) and treat Windows Server 2012 like it's a DOS app, because the GUI is unusable.

Re:Start menu usage dropped in lieu of what?

[war4peace]

I got a bit smarter and here's how I set up my desktop.

I have two folders created on my Desktop, one called "Software" and another called "Games". All software shortcuts go into the former, and all games shortcuts go into the latter. I then create two toolbars on my taskbar which point to those two folders, basically obtaining a slimmed down start menu which works the same way but doesn't have all the extra shit I don't need (e.g. Uninstall shortcuts, heinous list of subfolders, etc). Most used applications are also pinned to Taskbar.

So I am two clicks away from any application/game in my computer, all without having to use the Start Menu. With Win8, I actually didn't miss the start menu, I missed the taskbar and all the functionality it offered. Yes, I know it exists, but with the Windows button acting differently depending on which applications you have started and the need to press Alt+F4 to make sure an application is closed, it was diminishing my performance.

Re:Start menu usage dropped in lieu of what?

[CaptainDork]

I've been using a desktop for more than 15 years.

I didn't read the rest of it. I've been using a desktop since Moby Dick was a minnow (ca. 1978) and I don't care to be schooled by a noob.

Re:Start menu usage dropped in lieu of what?

[CaptainDork]

Makes me wonder how 90% of the Windows desktop real estate could be put to better use.

Re:Start menu usage dropped in lieu of what?

[UnknownSoldier]

> Apparently they are now admitting that their approach was flawed or insufficient.

LOL. Microsoft admit they were wrong or clueless? That's funny!

They just release a new version with revised function, form, and don't talk about the previous version hoping that it will eventually go away.

i.e.
* COM
* OLE
* VBX
* ActiveX
* VisualBasic
* MFC
* ATL
* COM+
* DCOM
* DNA
* .NET
* DX3
* DX5
* DX9
* DX11

Re:Start menu usage dropped in lieu of what?

[Krojack]

Not to mention programs like Putty, when pinned to the taskbar, you can right click it and see the most recent sessions. You can also pin your most used sessions. This is one of the best things since sliced bread.

Re:Start menu usage dropped in lieu of what?

[just_another_sean]

Some like you

WTF? Assume much?

I wasn't expressing my own work habits, simply my observation of others. My preference is to type my commands on a black screen with green text.

And besides, why? Because your "vast" experience with desktop says so? Back up your statements with some usability facts because "I'm an expert and I say so" doesn't mean much to the /. crowd.

Nice job at inserting some superfluous, puerile humor though.

Re:Start menu usage dropped in lieu of what?

[Errol backfiring]

No need to pin. After some net searching, you can find how to add a launch bar to win7 as well. Many disabled features can be re-enabled on win7, but it takes a hell of a long time to find and do it.

Re:Start menu usage dropped in lieu of what?

[Anonymous Coward]

2012 R2's interface sucks way less than 2012's.

It still sucks, but sucks way less. It's a shame, I kind of like the underlying OS.

Re:Start menu usage dropped in lieu of what?

[jsepeta]

hell i keep going back to CLASSIC desktop settings

Re:Start menu usage dropped in lieu of what?

[Chris Mattern]

Prior to Windows 8, what exactly where people using to start applications if they were not using the start menu?

Two obvious answers are desktop icons and running the files themselves and having the file association start the right app.

Re:Start menu usage dropped in lieu of what?

[CohibaVancouver]

Prior to Windows 8, what exactly where people using to start applications if they were not using the start menu?

They clicked "Start" then started typing "wor"... and hit enter.

Presto. MS Word.

Re:Start menu usage dropped in lieu of what?

[UnknownSoldier]

> how 90% of the Windows desktop real estate could be put to better use.

That's easy ...

1. Stop having a window title bar take the FULL width. The window title bar should be a slidable tab as in BeOS.

2. The window border should be (user customizable) allowed to be ZERO pixels like it was in Windows XP. The window border in Windows 8 are FAT and UGLY. I used to use a 1 pixel border on WinXP -- it was fantastic.

3. The window border should let the user decide if they auto-hide or not. Most of the time you don't resize a window -- why does the window border clutter up the screen?

4. The 'X' close button, should be on the OTHER side away from the '_' Minimize button, and the '[]' Maximize button.

5. There should be an option to have a global menu bar instead of EACH app wasting yet another row for its menu bar.

6. Allow the UI scaling to go BELOW 100%. Who was the idiot that decided the UI text scaling choices should only be 100%, 125%, and 150% ??

Microsoft doesn't understand the first thing about UI design: Signal-to-Noise.

Disclaimer: I am an OpenGL + UI + graphics expert. I am biased.

Re:Start menu usage dropped in lieu of what?

[some old guy]

Metro? /sarcasm

Re:Start menu usage dropped in lieu of what?

[Anonymous Coward]

Ah shit, my mod points just expired too, +5 funny!

Re:Start menu usage dropped in lieu of what?

[Anonymous Coward]

I've been using a desktop for more than 15 years. It is not a good habit to pin apps to the task bar. Putting up the shortcuts for the browser and email client is good enough most of the time.

When rarely used apps need to be called up, the Start Menu is the best way to do it.

Using a keyboard instead of a mouse on the desktop is like using the mouth instead of the penis for sex. Some like you seem to like it that way but do not speak for the rest of us.

If both parties use their mouth instead of their genitals for sex, then it becomes a whole different thing altogether, which I have been informed goes by the name "Kissing." And apparently a lot of users of that methodology seem to like it.

Re:Start menu usage dropped in lieu of what?

[Anonymous Coward]

15 years? You say that like it's a long time and we should be impressed. I've been using "desktops" as you call them, since their inception.

Re:Start menu usage dropped in lieu of what?

[nine-times]

Well sort of, but the problem is that the searching is now unintuitive enough that you didn't know how easy it is. Press the Windows key and start typing.

So it's not hard, and doesn't require a lot of clicks, but yes, it's a bad UI. After years of training people to use the mouse, they made it so easy access is only available through the keyboard. If you use the mouse in Windows 8, as you point out, you have to find a hidden button that only exists when you hover over it. When you do find it and press it, it moves you to an entirely different context with different UI conventions. My theory is that Microsoft may have done too much testing, without any sensible designer to actually look at the interaction and notice that it was dumb. Either that, or they were so focused on pushing people to use the Surface that they didn't care that the whole UI was a confusing mess.

Re:Start menu usage dropped in lieu of what?

[Richard_at_work]

Why would I want to do that? I like the switch to pinning :)

Re:Start menu usage dropped in lieu of what?

[jones_supa]

Yes, the classic Windows 2000 look is quite nice too, it's just a shame that the compositor is turned off when you use a classic theme in Windows 7.

Re:Start menu usage dropped in lieu of what?

[Joce640k]

I'm still reeling over the fact they noticed that "Start Menu usage dropped" right after they removed the start button.

How is that possible?

Re:Start menu usage dropped in lieu of what?

[owl57]

6. Allow the UI scaling to go BELOW 100%. Who was the idiot that decided the UI text scaling choices should only be 100%, 125%, and 150% ??

Maybe you missed that "Set custom text size (DPI)" on the left of this screen. I know it's some decently obfuscated UI design, I spent several minutes to find it the last time I used a Windows 7 box, but it is there.

Re:Start menu usage dropped in lieu of what?

[Anonymous Coward]

Umm, interesting as your personal UI design bugbears are, that's completely irrelevant to the discussion at hand. We're talking about the desktop. You know, the bit behind your application windows, that shows your wallpaper and desktop icons? rudy_wayne pointed out, in the context of how people launch applications, that many people have their desktops covered in application icons, and CaptainDork wondered in reply (possibly slightly sarcastically) whether there might be any better use for all that icon-covered desktop space.

Re:Start menu usage dropped in lieu of what?

[oh_my_080980980]

Which should the reason NOT to use this approach after the USER outrage over eliminating the start menu. Seems to me that people wanted the Start menu and MS gained nothing by eliminating it.

Re:Start menu usage dropped in lieu of what?

[oh_my_080980980]

That's it Zippy, tell people how they are suppose to use a general purpose computer system....

Re:Start menu usage dropped in lieu of what?

[I'm New Around Here]

I've been using a desktop for more than 15 years.

So has my daughter. She's now a college freshman.

The rest of your post isn't worth commenting on.

Re:Start menu usage dropped in lieu of what?

[sandytaru]

I have my most common applications pinned to task bar. I ended up pinning more after Win8 became a thing.

Re:Start menu usage dropped in lieu of what?

[oh_my_080980980]

I never use pinning. I use the quick launch and the start menu and have short cuts on the desktop. Gee, I'm using the OS to *SUIT MY NEEDS* There's a novel concept....

Re:Start menu usage dropped in lieu of what?

[turp182]

Ctrl+Esc opens the Start menu in Windows 7, and the cursor will be in the search bar (I start most programs this way, just type "excel" for Excel for example).

Re:Start menu usage dropped in lieu of what?

[oh_my_080980980]

No the majority if people do not pin, the put short cuts on their desktop. Thanks for playing Zippy.

Re:Start menu usage dropped in lieu of what?

[Anonymous Coward]

You say "no need to pin", but pinned apps are actually a step forward in most cases, because of jump lists. If I right-click on my pinned Visual Studio icon, I can go straight to any of my recent projects, for example, or with Word I can directly open any of my recent documents. With Thunderbird, I can directly open a new message or my address book. Pinned application icons on the taskbar are more than just a way of launching the application.

Re:Start menu usage dropped in lieu of what?

[I'm New Around Here]

I just tried that on my Windows 7 box. It doesn't let you go below 100%.

Re:Start menu usage dropped in lieu of what?

[Anonymous Coward]

I like pinning to the start menu instead. Pinning 20 or so most-used programs to the task bar just takes up too much space. I do keep shortcuts to my most used programs (File explorer, command, Firefox) on the task bar next to the start button.

Re:Start menu usage dropped in lieu of what?

[Anonymous Coward]

...since Moby Dick was a minnow

So he changed species when he grew up? /schooled by a noob

Re:Start menu usage dropped in lieu of what?

[Anonymous Coward]

If you could read, you'd know that in the book Melville argues that whales are fish.

Re:Start menu usage dropped in lieu of what?

[UnknownSoldier]

> We're talking about the desktop. You know, the bit behind your application windows,

Do (most) users even know about Windows-D to show the desktop??

Because 99% of the time there are windows blocking the desktop from even being visible in the first place.

As I already pointed out

Some people use shortcut keys to launch applications. Some don't.
Some people put icons on the desktop. Some don't.
Some use the menu. Some don't.
Some use the task bar. Some don't.

Re:Start menu usage dropped in lieu of what?

[Anonymous Coward]

Then he'd be wrong, too. Wrong is wrong, bud.

Re:Start menu usage dropped in lieu of what?

[jitterman]

So, you've been using computers since at least 1999. Congrats. Considering your decades... errr... years of desktop use, I hate to have to tell you this, but there are plenty of good reasons to pin apps to the task bar. Not every app is best served this way, but plenty are. Perhaps with some more time and experience you'll learn that, instead of attempting to speak for the rest of us.

Re:Start menu usage dropped in lieu of what?

[nabsltd]

They clicked "Start" then started typing "wor"... and hit enter.

Presto. MS Word.

On my system, "Microsoft SharePoint Workspace 2010" is the first option offered with just those three characters. Since I have never used that app, it's not about frequency or recent apps, it's about having the entire MS Office suite force-installed by group policy.

"word" does get Microsoft Word listed first, but I'm old-school and often still type "winword".

Re:Start menu usage dropped in lieu of what?

[bondsbw]

It is not a good habit to pin apps to the task bar.

I rarely pin apps to the taskbar.

Re:Start menu usage dropped in lieu of what?

[Anonymous Coward]

Retards generally keep program shortcuts on the desktop, many of which they never use, that and a mess of other files which don't belong.

Re:Start menu usage dropped in lieu of what?

[Anonymous Coward]

I have taken a survey of what I believe like minded people would say if asked, so intelligent people would pin, common users would use desktop shortcuts.

Re:Start menu usage dropped in lieu of what?

[mu51c10rd]

Yeah..funny seeing as my Slashdot ID is older than 15 years...

Re:Start menu usage dropped in lieu of what?

[CastrTroy]

Except that it will push users in the direction of doing things more efficiently. Getting rid of the start menu may be painful to the people who used it to launch programs, but it was a terrible way of launching programs. We needed to get rid of it. From the time I got Windows 7, and I could just press "start" type the first few characters of the program name and launch it, I never had to browse through a folder tree in order to find the program I wanted. It saved so much time. There was no more need for the start menu. Anybody who used it was just wasting their own time.

Re:Start menu usage dropped in lieu of what?

[Anonymous Coward]

Tell me about it! I'm not sure if building your own logic gates on a heath kit counts, but don't go looking for a start menu on that setup.
Good thing you didn't read the rest of his post. I threw up in my mouth a little bit when I got to his part o his sexual adventures.

Re:Start menu usage dropped in lieu of what?

[bondsbw]

It seemed more like the following, to me:

Let's create a version of Windows that is aimed aggressively at tablets. None of this Windows 7 Tablet PC edition, rather something that really embraces new hardware and technology. Full pane applications and home screen, with application lifecycle management and an app store, just like other tablet operating systems.

Oh and for added value, let's allow Windows desktop apps to run on it. Users can plug in mice and keyboards and it becomes like a small desktop.

Microsoft had already designed the Start screen, but it turns out telemetry data suggests the Start menu isn't of huge importance. And Fitts's Law suggests the Start screen might actually be better in some ways.

Of course, all that is true, and is great for a tablet-first OS. But then they branded it Windows 8 (not Windows Tablet or something like that) and marketed it as the successor to Windows 7. So, in my mind, it's a marketing screw-up and Windows 9 was always in the backs of their minds as the true successor to 7.

Re:Start menu usage dropped in lieu of what?

[cellocgw]

That's it Zippy, tell people how they are suppose to use a general purpose computer system...

You misspelled "Clippy" there.

Re:Start menu usage dropped in lieu of what?

[sjbe]

I've been using a desktop for more than 15 years.

Newbie. ;-)

It is not a good habit to pin apps to the task bar.

Why not? I'll agree that it's a bad habit to pin a lot of apps or infrequently used apps but I pin the 6 or so I use the most to the task bar. Saves me at least one mouse click every time I use them.

Using a keyboard instead of a mouse on the desktop is like using the mouth instead of the penis for sex. Some like you seem to like it that way but do not speak for the rest of us.

Funniest analogy I've heard in a long time. Well played.

Re:Start menu usage dropped in lieu of what?

[Anonymous Coward]

Being "wrong" doesn't change the book from what it is. Also, I'm not your bud. If you wish to waste your time arguing over the OP's obvious quip, by my guess.

Re:Start menu usage dropped in lieu of what?

[Calydor]

What if you can't recall the name of the program, but you know you'll recognize it the moment you see its folder in the ... oh wait. No Start menu.

Re:Start menu usage dropped in lieu of what?

[peragrin]

You are missing the fact that pinned apps to the windows 7 task bar randomly vanish. I stopped pinning apps as I wa losing them and couldn't repin them until after I unpinned them first.

Windows corrupts its data caches easily and it can be a pain to undue the damage. This is a known issue going back to th original release of windows 7.

Re:Start menu usage dropped in lieu of what?

[Whorhay]

That is a cool feature I was previously unaware of. However I still won't pin stuff because I hate the way it takes up taskbar space, and when you have a number of applications open, they then aren't displayed in the order that you opened them on the taskbar.

Re:Start menu usage dropped in lieu of what?

[Stan92057]

Pin to taskbar

Re:Start menu usage dropped in lieu of what?

[UnderCoverPenguin]

At work, I am forced to use Windows 7. I keep my 5 "always open" applications pinned to the task bar and the 15 most used pinned to the top level of the start menu.

On my own PCs (laptop I carry and desktop at home), my XFCE desktop has a similar arrangement.

Anything else, I use the "instant search" feature like the parent post.

And like the GGP post, I also see 90% of my coworkers cover the desktop with launch icons.

Re: Start menu usage dropped in lieu of what?

[Anonymous Coward]

It's more referred to as a number. 42, I think. Is really answer to that question. I believe.

Re:Start menu usage dropped in lieu of what?

[gbjbaanb]

Take away the start menu, and then be surprised that start menu usage dropped.

This from the guys who look at Office usage data and figured out that Paste was used twice as often as Cut and Copy, and therefore was the most important function, deserving of a huge icon on the ribbon while cut and copy were relegated to tiny icons because they were not used as much.

Re:Start menu usage dropped in lieu of what?

[zlives]

they also noted the usage of cursing at MS increased along with banging at the keyboards

Re:Start menu usage dropped in lieu of what?

[RaccoonBandit]

Well, with Windows 8.1 however, there is a start button. You now just have to right-click it to actually get any functionality out of it and not get sent to an obnoxious picture-book page. If they don't count right-clicks, then I would not at all be surprised if the start-button usage has indeed gone to zero.

Re:Start menu usage dropped in lieu of what?

[John Bokma]

"be my guest", I guess ;-)

Re:Start menu usage dropped in lieu of what?

[WheezyJoe]

Simply because a data-recorder didn't show the Start menu was used very often (in win 8 testing, I presume) does not mean that people don't rely upon it when the need arises.
Or maybe dropping it was just a bone-headed effort to force users to use the Metro start page.

Re:Start menu usage dropped in lieu of what?

[Altrag]

I'm guessing they noticed the start menu usage drop right after they made pinning to the task bar easy enough -- that covers probably 80-90% usage for most people if they pin the right programs.

What's amazing is that they thought the start menu lost its worth just because it lost much of its usage.

The win8 start page ended up being more of a glorified taskbar than a glorified start menu, both due to the unintuitive search interface (no indication that you should just start typing -- and the actual search icon is a different search of course) and the flattened folder structure (ie: if a program installs 14 icons into MyCompany\MyProgram under the old start menu, it now is 14 icons pasted directly onto your start page in amongst the icons from every other program you've installed.)

Navigating the win7 Start menu was relatively easy and intuitive. Navigating the win8 start page is pretty much the opposite of that. Its only really "easy" if the only things you ever use are the preinstalled software/icons/links (since its also reasonably unintuitive how to organize the start page. Not that the old start menu was much better for that but the existence of the folder structure tended to keep it from getting so cluttered that you absolutely needed to organize it given that it wasn't something you had to search through too often usually.)

Basically, it sounds mostly like they looked at the raw numbers and made a decision without bothering to check the cause of the usage drop (and more importantly, whether the remaining use cases were still relevant.) You would think the countless amount of bitching from the first day of the announcement forward (and who knows how much internal bitching by their own staff who would almost certainly have been subjected to it first) would have tipped them off but I guess not. Oh well, at least they seem to have learned their lesson for the moment.

Re:Start menu usage dropped in lieu of what?

[Anonymous Coward]

Very biased. There are good reasons I use Windows themes in KDE.

1. Totally disagree. This makes it harder to determine which bar is active and which is for a given window. MS made the right choice for the common denominator.

2. Sure, a smaller border would be nicer, but I've noticed that various window widgets are increasing with size as screen DPI increases. Windows XP corner buttons were much larger than Windows 98 buttons.

3. I guess? Doesn't matter to me.

4. Disagree. It is convenient having the X in the upper right corner with the other buttons. I've loved this ever since 95 introduced it (in fact, I ran a theme on 3.1 that had an X in the upper right). I hated going to the left to get to the context menu / doubleclicking.

5. I suppose, but a stupid option. This is the #1 reason I don't and won't use a Mac. A global menu is absurd. Macs in particular only have one global menu (rather than one per screen) so even if you have several enormous monitors, you have to mouse one or more screens over to get to the menu. This drives me nuts. I want all my app-related stuff within the app.

6. With screen resolutions that exist now, just get higher resolution screens (I'm sure you'll be fine with a 4K 24" monitor). Windows' problem now is that apps still doesn't handle the ultra-high resolutions (4K 15" laptops) well yet, aside from Metro. 150% is still not enough for those... most people >40 can't hardly read text at 15" 1080p 100% as it is.

Microsoft seems to understand it well enough to get 90% of the market share pre-tablet. You just have different opinions -- thank God you have Linux/Apple where you can have what you want.

Re:Start menu usage dropped in lieu of what?

[Rinikusu]

Amusingly enough, my desktop has a ton of icons on it that I never, ever use. Everything's pinned to the taskbar or I use the run box these days, and if I'm really "lost" I go through the start->program files. I have been amused at times to find out the thing I was looking for has an icon on the desktop...

Re:Start menu usage dropped in lieu of what?

[FrankSchwab]

Some people use shortcut keys to launch applications. Some don't.
Some people put icons on the desktop. Some don't.
Some use the menu. Some don't.
Some use the task bar. Some don't.

I don't use shortcut keys.
I put icons on the desktop for apps I use once a week.
I use the start menu for apps I run seldom (like IE).
I pin daily apps to the task bar.

I guess the only point is that people aren't binary - with multiple ways of doing things, different people have different weights that they apply to each method to help them do things the way they work. Many of them don't use exclusively a single approach.

One of the big failings of Windows 8 was ignoring this, and forcing a single, completely different way of working on people.

Re:Start menu usage dropped in lieu of what?

[UnknownSoldier]

> One of the big failings of Windows 8 was ignoring this, and forcing a single, completely different way of working on people.

Concur 100% !

Re:Start menu usage dropped in lieu of what?

[uncqual]

In order to be certified as a Windows 10 system, keyboards, mice, monitors, and system enclosures will have to have shock sensors so MS can tell that users are throwing their mice at the wall, hitting their heads against the monitor, or kicking the system enclosure in frustration.

In Windows 11, users will be required to have shock sensors implanted in their foreheads and hands to detect when they hit their heads against the wall or beat their dog or spouse in frustration over dealing with Windows.

Re:Start menu usage dropped in lieu of what?

[Anonymous Coward]

I've been using a desktop for more than 15 years.

So has my daughter. She's now a college freshman.

The rest of your post isn't worth commenting on.

Not true, we need to know if she prefers to use her mouth...

Re:Start menu usage dropped in lieu of what?

[Electricity Likes Me]

This to me has always seemed like what happened with the Ribbon in MS Office as well. The tech talk they gave about developing it doesn't really parse against what they actually did, and how amazingly uncustomizable it actually is.

Re:Start menu usage dropped in lieu of what?

[mwvdlee]

Super (Windows) key does the same. Just saves you a finger-stretching keyboard combo there :)

Re:Start menu usage dropped in lieu of what?

[mcgrew]

Getting away from that damned ribbon is one of the nicer things about being retired! Even better than not needing an alarm clock.

Re:Start menu usage dropped in lieu of what?

[mcgrew]

On my small notebook I have the file manager, Thunderbird and Firefox pinned, but I mostly use Open Office Write. Most recently opened documents are two clicks away, while if Oo was pinned a click would open a blank document, and it's a couple more clicks from Oo's interface.

Re:Start menu usage dropped in lieu of what?

[mcgrew]

From the time I got Windows 7, and I could just press "start" type the first few characters of the program name and launch it

And then open the file you want to work on. Meanwhile, using the Start Menu, two clicks and your document is open inside the app.

Your method is extremely problematic with something like GIMP that has little or no keyboard use.

Don't like Start? Don't use it. But just because I don't have a use for something doesn't mean it should be abolished.

Re:Start menu usage dropped in lieu of what?

[turp182]

Saving a file for web in Photoshop is like playing Twister on the keyboard:
Ctrl+Alt+Shift+S

One of my other favorites is to open up Task Manager: Ctrl+Shift+Esc

And of course Alt+Tab and Shift+Alt+Tab to switch windows (although I wish the icons had the program names, I can scan those faster)

Re:Start menu usage dropped in lieu of what?

[UnknownSoldier]

> This makes it harder to determine which bar is active and which is for a given window.

I never had any problems on BeOS. Besides, you can color code the window title to visually tell what is the active and non-active titles.

> 5. I suppose, but a stupid option. This is the #1 reason I don't and won't use a Mac.

In my college days I used the NeXT machines. They had a floating vertical menu that you could position anywhere. It was sweet.

My main work machine is OSX. You'll selling yourself short. I thought I would hate the single menu bar across multiple monitors but with all the apps I run, getting back the menu bar for EACH window adds up.

Regardless, the correct option for UI is to chose defaults and allow options for the power users so they can tweak it.

Microsoft _could_ have a kick-ass UI if they weren't so interested in dumbing everything down. Treat the users with some _respect_ instead of idiots. But Microsoft doesn't care. Too much Apple envy.

Re:Start menu usage dropped in lieu of what?

[Anonymous Brave Guy]

I have LibreOffice installed on one of my systems, and it has always been unhelpful about how it works with the task bar on Windows 7. I don't know what they're doing wrong, but nothing works quite right with either the task bar or jump lists.

LibreOffice is, however, the only one of 20+ pinned applications on the system that has this problem. I don't know whether OpenOffice has the same problem, but if so, I'd say it's an anomaly.

Re:Start menu usage dropped in lieu of what?

[Anonymous Coward]

I've been using a desktop for more than 15 years. It is not a good habit to pin apps to the task bar. Putting up the shortcuts for the browser and email client is good enough most of the time.

When rarely used apps need to be called up, the Start Menu is the best way to do it.

I would argue that for frequently used apps the start menu is the worst way to run them.
Task bar pinning is the best habit as this gains you hot-key launching using WinKey and a number, and if you happen to have a hand on the mouse they are one-click away instead of three plus.
(Win+1 runs the first pinned app, Win+2 the second, and so on)

I would also argue that for infrequent but not rarely used apps are needed, again the start menu is not the best method but the search box is.
(The search box is only coincidentally the same as the start menu on Windows 7)
It is much quicker to hit WinKey and type the first few letters of the program than spend 3+ mouse clicks to do the same task.

Only for very rarely used programs, specific to the condition that you don't recall the program name at the time you need it, does the start menu actually become the best method - and only then because it is often the last and only option to *look up* that programs name.

Re:Start menu usage dropped in lieu of what?

[Immerman]

Pro tip: use an alarm clock occasionally anyway - you can then indulge in the pleasure of throwing it across the room before rolling over and going back to sleep, revelling in the fact that the damned thing doesn't run your life anymore.

Re:Start menu usage dropped in lieu of what?

[Immerman]

Indeed. Where I find pinning comes in handy is for that very small handful of applications that are generally running anyway. Close the last Firefox window? No worries - the icon is still right where you left it and will simply open a new window instead of listing the currently open ones.

Of course I typically also have a quick launch area on the taskbar containing several much smaller icons for the next bunch of most-commonly-used programs (usually ~9 in the space of a single "normal" icon), which keeps them from clogging up the recent application list so that it can adapt more readily to changes in my usage patterns. I don't need an "adaptive" list of all the stuff I always use, a static list works fine for that (and isn't prone to dropping essential shortcuts) - it's the stuff that changes from day to day or week to week as I work on different projects that's nice to not have to go continuously digging for.

Re:Start menu usage dropped in lieu of what?

[Anonymous Coward]

I've started using a desktop when the only alternative was a mainframe.
I was "online" when online meant fidonet.
I remember when "upgrades" involved soldering irons.

So, Get Off of My Lawn

Re:Start menu usage dropped in lieu of what?

[mcgrew]

I tried Lo but it wouldn't do full justification, so it was a no-go for me; I need to format printed books. Oo seems to work like any other Windows program, except it loses it's "last used files" list in the start menu whenever it's upgraded (they really need to fix that).

Re:Start menu usage dropped in lieu of what?

[Anonymous Coward]

Pinning to the task bar eliminates a good bit of Start Menu usage

Quick Launch has been around longer and I like it better as its separated out from your running programs. Have about 50 icons for work on it, 10 at home. Use the Start menu maybe once per week these days. Downside to Quick Launch - have to enable manually in Win7 now, annoying.

Re:Start menu usage dropped in lieu of what?

[Altrag]

They took out the one major advantage of the start menu over metro -- not having to hide whatever else you're doing behind an ugly full screen monstrosity.

Re:Start menu usage dropped in lieu of what?

[Altrag]

Ugh. Ribbons. I still can't find 90% of what I want on those stupid things what.. 4+ years after they were introduced? And MS keeps adding them to more and more programs.

Re:Start menu usage dropped in lieu of what?

[Anonymous Coward]

The irritating icon overload that programs like to dump on the desktop by default? Sure you probably deleted them like I did to keep the place neat and organised, but most users probably not only leave them there but also use them.

Re:Start menu usage dropped in lieu of what?

[Anonymous Coward]

4. The 'X' close button, should be on the OTHER side away from the '_' Minimize button, and the '[]' Maximize button.

...and the X button should be in the very top corner, or at least positioned so that clicking in the very top corner closes the window. Over many years I was in the habit of closing maxed windows by blindly swinging the mouse to the top corner and clicking. Quick, automatic, no aiming required. Then out came versions of windows (7 iirc?) and Ubuntu that broke this de-facto standard. Happy I was not.

Re:Start menu usage dropped in lieu of what?

[thegarbz]

Some of what you said makes perfect sense. Others stuff I think is personal preference. I have a few questions:

4. Why separate the X button from fullscreen and minimise? Why not keep all the window functions in the same logical place? Hitting the X accidentally as rarely as that may happen will on most applications where the loss of some information is possible result in a pop-up asking you if you're sure, or if you want to save etc. So why separate the button locations?

6. Why scale below 100%? Windows already does an incredibly poor job of scaling fonts. Even scaling up makes things look bad, scaling down when you don't have the pixels to do it would just cause a screen to display garbage, not to mention that now we're finally moving up in resolution the 100% scaling will likely be too low for most applications very soon.

Re:Start menu usage dropped in lieu of what?

[Blaskowicz]

I've find out I have "shutdown..." stuff in my top corner. Will try using it more.

Re:Start menu usage dropped in lieu of what?

[Anonymous Coward]

1. No. Just no.
2. Look at Ubuntu 14.04, zero-width border is even uglier.
3. Auto-hide is confusing as hell.
4. So you end up moving the cursor like a maniac.
5. try using GIMP for a longer period of time... you'll cry for per-app menus in no time. I ended up disabling global menus on my Ubuntu work laptop.
6. I agree with that. You can hack around it, but it will ruin a lot of apps.

Win7 GUI is near flawless, except for the disgusting ribbon interface, but I can avoid it completely.

Re:Start menu usage dropped in lieu of what?

[Anonymous Coward]

BULLSHIT.

Before you had the ability to pin applications to the task bar, they had this thing called the quick launch bar. Unlike creating desktop shortcuts (yikes, I don't think I've done that since about 1994) that tend to get covered over by pretty much every fucking window you have open, you just drag your mouse down to the quick launch portion of the taskbar and within about a second you've launched what you want to launch.

Basic, basic shit.

*Obligatory* In Soviet Russia....

[Anonymous Coward]

Operating System watches you!

Obligitory: 1984 Conspiracy Theorists unite!

[Anonymous Coward]

By Tweaks and Changes that need to be made, maybe they mean which users need to be eliminated, as they are a known PRISM partner.

They are awfully quick to give a seemingly innocuous reason why they are doing this, when it's complete nonsense. Why would they need to know in real time?

Which users?

[drinkypoo]

Windows 7 is the end for me, thanks. I pretty much felt that way anyway, but now I really double-extra plus feel that way. Thanks for helping make that decision simple, Redmond.

Re:Which users?

[Anonymous Coward]

Windows 9 preview users.

Re:Which users?

[Richard_at_work]

Having followed your posts on Slashdot now for years, you never needed an excuse to bash Microsoft so why use one now?

Re:Which users?

[The Grim Reefer]

Agreed. Win 7 is supported until 2020 and the last I heard the Pro version may go a little while longer than that.

I am wondering if this monitoring will cease and blow over as more people hear about it. Most people seem to have forgotten that XP phoned home with random core dumps when it was first released. I don't remember when they stopped that, It may have been "fixed" prior to sp1 even.

I suspect this will become opt-in, if it remains at all. The whole NSA thing has the masses much more cognizant of such things currently.

Re:Which users?

[Jason Levine]

Windows 8 isn't too bad once you use a 3rd party tool (e.g. Classic Shell) to restore your Start Menu/Desktop environment. It's just a shame that Microsoft felt the need to keep this from being a user selected option. Even if they set "Use Tiles On Start-Up" as the default, having the option would've been better.

Re:Which users?

[jones_supa]

Relax. I'm quite sure this feature can be turned off.

Re:Which users?

[drinkypoo]

Having followed your posts on Slashdot now for years,

Thank you! I appreciate all of my followers.

you never needed an excuse to bash Microsoft so why use one now?

I don't need an excuse when I have a reason.

Re:Which users?

[Anonymous Coward]

Yeah... Windows 8.1 is sad. The error messages mean nothing (hold on... I'm doing something), metro is unusable (and the start-menu replacements I've tried are surprisingly unresponsive), the stupid flat theme has now infected otherwise quality MS software like Office, I hate the seemingly irreplaceable arrhythmic juggling balls, and to put the icing on the cake, with less than a dozen days of use it needed a system refresh (the laptop it was on was months old, but spent most of its life booted into Linux -- for the desktop). I ended up putting a Mac OS X VM onto the Windows partition to have some sort of desktop available when running "Windows".

Windows 7 shines like the bright star of morning in contrast.

If MS wants to really promote sales of Windows 9, they can sell OS keys that are good for any previous OS. I would buy my XP-running parents a Windows 9 key if it meant I could downgrade them to 7 if 9 sucked.

Re:Which users?

[s.petry]

One of many reasons I am currently developing internal proxy services is due to Windows 8 constantly phoning home, trying to download games and themes, etc.. We can only block the 3rd party requests, so nothing past Windows 7 will be in a PCI cage any time soon. Further, we have postponed any further 'upgrades'/orders which contain Windows 8 until we can determine how much impact the proxy will have. The proxy surely won't fix issues like this proposal since it will talk to "microsoft.com", so I see many others having to adopt the same plan of action you stated.

Re:Which users?

[CaptainDork]

I am not going to hold you to your statement to stop at Windows 7.

The Windows 9 verbosity is for beta.

Please wait for the gold version and come on back now, ya hear?

Re:Which users?

[Cid Highwind]

They didn't stop, but they did make it opt-in. If something crashes and you click "Close the program and check with Microsoft for a solution", it still beams the core dump up to the Redmond mothership.

Re:Which users?

[sasparillascott]

"The whole NSA thing has the masses much more cognizant of such things currently."

Especially for Microsoft and its products...

http://www.theguardian.com/wor...

Re:Which users?

[Anonymous Coward]

He's not a follower, Mr. Big Ego. It's just easy for us old timers to notice the trolls. They tend to post frequently and often get modded up by the groupthink.

Re:Which users?

[Anonymous Coward]

You can globally opt out through group policy

Re:Which users?

[Anonymous Coward]

A lot of people said the same thing about XP. Then Microsoft forced them to upgrade. They will do the same to you.

Even if you somehow manage to protect yourself against the security threats when updates are cut off, it won't be long before any new hardware has no drivers for Win 7, nor will any new software run on it.

Eventually, you will upgrade, and you will be monitored just like everyone else.

Resistance is futile.

Re:Which users?

[The Grim Reefer]

They didn't stop, but they did make it opt-in. If something crashes and you click "Close the program and check with Microsoft for a solution", it still beams the core dump up to the Redmond mothership.

I'm not talking about when something crashes, or there is an issue.

Re:Which users?

[s.petry]

Been there, and applied a patch from Microsoft and everything starts phoning home again. No, I should not have to constantly chip what we pay for to make it function in a business environment. Ubuntu at least has that as an excuse.

Re:Which users?

[mand1nga]

Couldn't agree more. Not restoring the (useful) start menu for W8, even as an option, goes to show how much they really care about it's customers. Now it's (sort of) going to be available for W10 but still not for W8. Quite lovely.

Re:Which users?

[mcgrew]

I'm hoping W7 is it for me, but I'd said that XP was it; I've been mostly using Linux for a decade. Then about 3 years ago I bought this notebook and have been too lazy to install kubuntu (which I had on the older one that had been stolen). Despite its annoyances W7's still there.

Re:Which users?

[mcgrew]

Couldn't agree more. Not restoring the (useful) start menu for W8, even as an option, goes to show how much they really care about it's customers.

You're not their customer unless you're buying boxed sets of their OS and apps to install on your home brew machine. Acer, Dell, etc. are their customers. You didn't buy that OS from Microsoft, the OEM did. You bought it from him, and he's the one you should complain to.

Re:Which users?

[drinkypoo]

Relax. I'm quite sure this feature can be turned off.

Perhaps I will demonstrate some interest if it is demonstrated that it can be completely excised. But among my concerns is that the hooks meant for this purpose will be easy for malware to employ.

Re:Which users?

[drinkypoo]

A lot of people said the same thing about XP. Then Microsoft forced them to upgrade. They will do the same to you.

But, I won't. I haven't bought any Windows software in a long time, and I'm continuing that trend. I play games on it, and it will continue to run my old games well after EOL so that's fine. I also have some automotive service software, but that will do fine in a VM.

Windows 7 is really fantastic to use in a lot of ways, and I've enjoyed it. I'm enjoying it right now. But Microsoft has gone full asshole. They were always pretty damned bad, of course — I've ranted and railed about them time and again, as mentioned nearby. But they always sort of pretended they cared about the user experience until recently.

Re:"Rest assured, the data is going to be obscured

[Anonymous Coward]

Rest assured, the NSA will be getting the unobfuscated stuff and sending the obfuscated data back to MS.

Asimov system?

[TWX]

More like the Orwell system, or perhaps the Huxley system...

Re:Asimov system?

[Anonymous Coward]

Why were they thinking of Asimov? It's likely because he's associated with the impacts of robots on society. What was Asimov's first law of robotics but "[a] robot may not injure a human being or, through inaction, allow a human being to come to harm"? Spying on people--isn't that harmful to people even though the ones spying derive benefit? Their Asimov name for this system is an outrage.

Re:Asimov system?

[TWX]

Kind of like PATRIOT Act for laws allowing the government to spy on people?

It's all Orwellian doublespeak.

Re:Asimov system?

[CaptainDork]

You did read the part about, "preview" (beta), right?

Re:Asimov system?

[Anonymous Coward]

Ah yeah--take a look at this preview of how we're gonna cut your balls off.

Re:Asimov system?

[cant_get_a_good_nick]

I'd prefer the Huxtable system, with Jello Pudding!

Re:Asimov system?

[Anonymous Coward]

I will never associate Isaac Asimov's vision and genius with anything microsoft could ever do on their best day. How dare they use his name for one of their projects.

Re:Asimov system?

[Anonymous Coward]

The name is still rather offensive, like naming a brand of bullets "Einstein" - it doesn't even make sense.

Re:Asimov system?

[Anonymous Coward]

More like the Orwell system, or perhaps the Huxley system...

Maybe it's part of their new cross-platform system: SpiesForSure.

Re:Asimov system?

[TWX]

Having read most if not all of Foundation, I find Asimov to be a little overrated, but I didn't find him to be intentionally malicious or with designs of intrusiveness.

Re:Asimov system?

[Anonymous Coward]

I suddenly understand, this software is the mule.

"Not direct mind-control per se, it is a subtle influence of the subconscious; individuals under the Mule's influence behave otherwise normally - logic, memories, and personality intact. "
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mule_(Foundation)

I approve this usage of Asimov's name.

Re:Asimov system?

[mcgrew]

Overrated?? Asimov wrote over 500 books, both fiction and nonfiction. His stories were between the covers of all the science fiction magazines every month. And the trilogy you rate so poorly won a Hugo award (the most respected science fiction award there is, with the possible exception of the Nebula). He, Heinlein, and Clarke are are often considered to be the "Big Three" of science fiction authors.

Sheesh, judge the author of over 500 books on three. That's pathetic.

Oh, and in case you didn't figure it out, I've been a huge Asimov fan for fifty years (as well as Heinlein and Niven and most of the rest). I didn't care for Clarke, but I'd not call him unimpressive, I just didn't care for his style. If I cared for that style I'd probably love his work, but I don't.

Re:Asimov system?

[Anonymous Coward]

Or the Huxley system, with Jello Pudding! [Sorry, the movie Demolition Man was on TV just last week...]

Re:Asimov system?

[TWX]

I didn't say that he was bad, I said that he was overrated a bit. I enjoyed what I've read, and I read more than the original three, but when he started making attempts to merge Foundation with the Robot series, I didn't find that it worked as well as I had expected. If Asimov wasn't so incredibly hyped then maybe my expectations wouldn't have been so high to start with, contributing to my let-down.

You used "Rest assured," and "Microsoft"

[jpellino]

in the same paragraph. That'll be five laps. Backwards.

Tech Preview only?

[neoritter]

It's hard to tell by the article, is this system for the tech preview only, or also for the consumer release versions?

Re:Tech Preview only?

[Anonymous Coward]

yes

Doubleplusgood!

[Ol Olsoc]

"Rest assured, the data is going to be obscured and aggregated, but intelligible enough to allow Microsoft to get detailed insights into user interactions with the OS."

How does one obscure data to the point where you can't identify the user, but still have meaningful data? Haven't we heard this all before?

Nah, this is just a customer opt in to to 100 percent surveillance.

"Microsoft said that they had data showing Start Menu usage had dropped, but it seems that the tools they were using at the time weren't as evolved as the new 'Asimov' monitor."

New Asimov has already confirmed that Windows 8 users don't use the Start menu hardly at all.

Re:Doubleplusgood!

[Xest]

"How does one obscure data to the point where you can't identify the user, but still have meaningful data? Haven't we heard this all before?"

Easily, if all you want is to figure out things like "How long does it take a user to find the application they want in the Start Menu" then all you're doing is timing from the moment they click start, to the time they click a start menu option. You don't need to know who the user is, or even what IP the data was submitted from and when you have a lot of this data it's trivial to tell if the mean time users take to find an application has increased or decreased after you made a change in an update, or after they changed a configuration setting.

If all you're doing is getting metrics on millions of users as to how they use things like this then it's trivial to keep it anonymised and non-identifying. I don't care how long it takes John Smith from Outer Mongolia specifically to find Microsoft Word in his Start Menu - I don't need to take information about who he is, where he lives or any such thing, I just want to know how long on average it takes a sample of users to do so for example.

Though of course, this isn't to say that I trust Microsoft to do just this, I don't for one moment imagine they'll be able to resist the urge to keep the data anonymous and/or only collect data that is non-identifying, but that doesn't change the fact that it's trivial to come up with useful metrics they may choose to gather without it being identifiable - what they're claiming is certainly possible, realistic, and even helpful to them (and arguably users too if they get a better product out of it) but whether they'll stick to what they're claiming or not? that's what's troubling here.

Re:Doubleplusgood!

[Anonymous Coward]

> I don't need to take information about who he is, where he lives or any such thing

Who he is isn't important, but you definitely want to know where he lives to some extent. Use cases and behaviors probably vary widely by region,

Re:Doubleplusgood!

[Anonymous Coward]

"Rest assured, the data is going to be obscured and aggregated, but intelligible enough to allow Microsoft to get detailed insights into user interactions with the OS."

How does one obscure data to the point where you can't identify the user, but still have meaningful data? Haven't we heard this all before?

Nah, this is just a customer opt in to to 100 percent surveillance.

"Microsoft said that they had data showing Start Menu usage had dropped, but it seems that the tools they were using at the time weren't as evolved as the new 'Asimov' monitor."

New Asimov has already confirmed that Windows 8 users don't use the Start menu hardly at all.

Wrong. A whole lot of Win 8 users use the Start Menu, courtesy of tools like Classic Shell, Start 8, etc etc etc.

Re:Doubleplusgood!

[Ol Olsoc]

"How does one obscure data to the point where you can't identify the user, but still have meaningful data? Haven't we heard this all before?"

Easily, if all you want is to figure out things like "How long does it take a user to find the application they want in the Start Menu" then all you're doing is timing from the moment they click start, to the time they click a start menu option.

That's sort of sweet in it's own way, but at what point is all of the other data going to be tossed away? And today, if data is available, and being collected, do you actually think that it won't be used?

You don't need to know who the user is, or even what IP the data was submitted from and when you have a lot of this data it's trivial to tell if the mean time users take to find an application has increased or decreased after you made a change in an update, or after they changed a configuration setting.

You are arguing exactly the wrong thing with me. You are 100 percent right, I agree 100 percent with you. It can be anonymous. Sorta.

But if you think that because it can be anonymous, and that because Microsoft says it will be anonymous, that it will actually be anonymous? Well, Okay. That sort of trust is kind of refreshing these days. And doomed to disappointment.

This is essentially allowing a Microsoft Keylogger on your system.

Re:Doubleplusgood!

[Ol Olsoc]

> I don't need to take information about who he is, where he lives or any such thing

Who he is isn't important, but you definitely want to know where he lives to some extent. Use cases and behaviors probably vary widely by region,

And other people will want to know other data for other reasons. The whole way from sociologists to law enforcement.

So the question is, is he naive, or am I cynical?

Re:Doubleplusgood!

[Ol Olsoc]

Wrong. A whole lot of Win 8 users use the Start Menu, courtesy of tools like Classic Shell, Start 8, etc etc etc.

Whoosh. Just whoosh.

Re:Doubleplusgood!

[Xest]

I'm not naive, I thought I was pretty blunt in stating that I'm not convinced that Microsoft can stick to simply collecting only purely anonymous data, my post was made merely to point out that it's most definitely not impossible to collect anonymous usage data that is useful which is what you originally implied (but now seem to agree is incorrect).

Re:Doubleplusgood!

[Xest]

I suspect even that would be better served by simply factoring in locale/language settings though rather than say something that can be used a bit more nefariously though like IP and/or some IP geolocation result, as you get different cultures within individual geolocation areas quite frequently.

Again, this isn't to say I necessarily trust Microsoft in this respect of course regardless, I'm just saying it's possible to gather this data in a fairly mundane manner with no ill effects if your intentions are genuinely innocent. The problem is that Microsoft's rarely are, so I'd still personally avoid this service by not installing the OS or turning it off if that was an option. It's not something I'd trust to have running on my system from Microsoft, or even any of the large tech vendors in all honesty.

Why can't I post with my user id jkrise?

[Anonymous Coward]

Something strange with Slashdot these days.

Anyways, back on topic. Not a single user 'uses' the operating system at all.

All of them launch application programs, such as a browser or email client, and use the application. When they are done, they close the application and go to shutdown or standby.

No need to run a convoluted program to monitor how a desktop OS user uses the OS.

how the OS is used

[BlackSnake112]

So microsoft will monitor windows 9 to see how people are using it? So email, watching cat clips on youtube, porn, games, occasionally looking stuff up on google, and writing a document. Why would microsoft need to monitor the OS to see that?

Clippy: *tap* *tap* *tap* I see you are looking up porn. Would you like some help with that.

It goes without saying...

[hyades1]

...monitoring will cease after Microsoft has gathered enough information to make Win 9 as user-friendly as possible.

ROFL...kicking my feet in the air and gasping for breath

Good thing

[Anonymous Coward]

Of course, there is a concern about how and how well the data is anonymized, but I would definitely enable this if it meant having a more efficient work experience with Windows.

What?

[Anonymous Coward]

1. Why would I want this? Why would I help microsoft do their work by letting them spy my actions?

2. If they already did this, why wasn't I informed?

3. If they already did this, and lead to the abomination nobody ever asked for known as Windows 8 and 8.1; why keep doing it?

4. Why do these people keep alienating your customer base? We've far passed the point where eschewing Windows is viable, so they don't have the upper hand anymore. Why?

I'm starting that this Nadella guy is even crazier than sweaty balls.

Re:What?

[Anonymous Coward]

Of course, there is an even bigger concern. Didn't MS turn someone in to the police for something in their E-mail or cloud storage? Yes, it was CP... but we all know a "terrorist" has gone from someone like bin Laden to a child in an elementary school who might chew a gun shape with a pop tart.

So, lets take two and two:

1: MS would get the ability to see what people are doing in real time on their machine, access any file, and so on.

2: MS has played policeman and turned people in. Yes, it was nasty, illegal photos now... but that can easily change, just like the "terrorist" definition.

I would be concerned about seeing info gleaned from this resulting in having people turned in for stuff they are doing on their computer in real time, be it the fact they played a MP3 from an ill-gotten source, or decided to hexedit a game save.

Of course, how secure are these constant phone-homes? Are we one DNS poison and SSL CA compromise away from some criminal organization getting all that data?

No thanks. We already have intrusive things (be it Valve checking DNS history and locking out people from paid software as they feel like, with no recourse.) We also have plenty of bad guys wanting to install RAT-ware on our machines. Why do we need yet another set of software phoning home which violates our privacy and another attack surface for bad guys?

Maybe the Mac guys are right. Apple does nasty things, but in general, they run a tight ship when it comes to security, and it would be highly unlikely they would be turning users over to LEOs on their whims.

Circle jerk

[Malizar]

So, smart people will disable the monitoring, leaving Microsoft to only get usage data from the stupid people. I see this going really well.

Re:Circle jerk

[Anon-Admin]

The smart people are already on Linux or soon will be. Thus they don't have to worry about Microsoft Monitoring all the windows systems.

Or viruses, spyware, rebooting frequently, BSOD errors, etc, etc, etc.

Oh, really?

[Anonymous Coward]

Nice try, GCHQ/NSA.

I can tell them without a single line of code

[RogueWarrior65]

Facebook, Solitaire, Candy Crush, Angry Birds, not Internet Explorer, cracked copies of Office.

Re:I can tell them without a single line of code

[the eric conspiracy]

You left out porn.

Re:I can tell them without a single line of code

[RogueWarrior65]

True. And downloading viruses and running botnets.

Re:I can tell them without a single line of code

[Anonymous Coward]

What do you think 'Solitaire' is?

There it is.

[Anonymous Coward]

That would be the end of the "1 good, 1 bad" streak. I guess it's Win7 from here on or until a new contender pops up, and since there are none in sight the future just became a lot more uncertain. Mac is made by idiots. Linux is only good for a few things and is still as far as ever from being a good general desktop to be used by non-neckbeards.

I wonder how much the NSA paid them or how many of them were threatened....

rather telling.

[nimbius]

Even after axing 4000 employees and preeching a new leaf culture, Microsoft is still so divorced from its customer base that it requires an intrusive surveillance program to figure out how to deliver a functional product.

Here are some hints for free: listen to your customers and stop treating them like unwashed hobos. shutter your dismal app store, stop making the OS contingent upon capacitive touch screen, release one, one version of the OS instead of a whole shit sandwich of different versions the average user cares nothing about. bring back the start button. Quit trying to make me use your internet browser, its a wretched piece of garbage. Stop with the search engine, its alexa rank is ten fold lower than yahoo and its results are worse than awful.

Re:rather telling.

[TubeSteak]

Stop with the search engine, its alexa rank is ten fold lower than yahoo and its results are worse than awful.

Heh.
Yahoo Search has been Powered by Bing (TM) since 2011.
It will remain Powered by Bing (TM) until 2021.

/Yahoo's advertising is also done through Microsoft's Bing Ads.

Re:rather telling.

[Anonymous Coward]

Come on this is actually good for any 3 letter us agency, just imagine all the possibilities with this toy, real time data without actually doing any work :)

Re:rather telling.

[mu51c10rd]

Microsoft is still so divorced from its customer base

Divorced? Some of us prefer a retraining order...

Re:rather telling.

[MyNicknameSucks]

So ... here's the thing. Metro was designed around keyboard and touch, not mouse. Desktop was designed around mouse and keyboard. Many of the years-old keyboard shortcuts such as alt-f4 and alt-tab (definitely Win95 era, possibly Win3) work perfectly fine in Metro. Just because Metro looks "touchy" doesn't mean you can't interact with it in other ways.

I am frankly ... kind of amazed that a nerdy crowd that frequently crows about the number of ways they can interact with gadgets (different iterations of Android, MacOS, Windows, Linux, iOS, Amiga, BeOS, BSD, BASH and on and on) have such a hard time wrapping their heads around keyboarding through Metro.

Re:rather telling.

[Khashishi]

I think their desire to release one version of windows is the problem here, not the solution. They are trying to force desktop users to use a phone environment, when these are two different things.

Asmiov = Halo?

[Jason Levine]

From the article:

I’ve heard Microsoft built a new real-time telemetry system codenamed “Asimov” (yes, another Halo-influenced codename) that lets the OS team see in near real-time what’s happening on users’ machines.

(Emphasis mine.)

Maybe I'm just out of it since I've never played Halo, but how is "Asmiov" a "Halo-influenced codename"? Doesn't this reference Isaac Asimov, the extremely prolific writer and one of the major pillars of classic science fiction? I'm assuming that something within Halo is named Asimov, after Isaac. Do we credit references to the latest to use the reference instead of the original source?

Re:Asmiov = Halo?

[phantomfive]

Here you go. I think the summary is actually an attempt at flamebait, in several different ways.

Re:Asmiov = Halo?

[Eevee]

Because if you're going to tarnish the name "Asimov", I'd rather you blame it on Halo than Isaac.

DURRRRRR....

[buckfeta2014]

During Windows 8 testing, Microsoft said that they had data showing Start Menu usage had dropped

Maybe that's because they got rid of it and put that bullshit metro in its place... Of course nobody wants to use it.

"are need to be made"??

[Anonymous Coward]

Does anyone proofread these things?

Nice slippery slope you got there

[Anonymous Coward]

Windows XP: Windows Genuine Activation
Windows 7: Internet Explorer SmartScreen sends your URLs to Microsoft
Windows 8: You log in with your "Microsoft account" to your own computer
Windows 9: Accurate information is sent about how you use your computer

Hire the right people?

[Spinlock_1977]

Lots of other companies manage to produce a great UI without telemetry. It's pretty sad that a company of Microsoft's depth needs telemetry data to break the management deadlocks that are contributing to the 'designed by committee' feeling of Windows 8. Talent and balls seem to be absent in these decisions.

Re:Hire the right people?

[dbIII]

Talent and balls seem to be absent in these decisions.

They have a toxic "kill off one from every team" workplace culture which apparently gets rid of balls and breaks up talented teams or makes them focus too much on conflict than the job.

Re:Hire the right people?

[Anonymous Coward]

They removed the rank-and-file peer performance review system you speak of.

Re:Hire the right people?

[dbIII]

Cool. When?

Re:Hire the right people?

[Anonymous Coward]

I think it was last year around now.

just ask anyone!

[slashmydots]

They're starting over from the drawing board to see how humans use computers? Are you fucking kidding me? Just design it so it doesn't suck. They could replace their AI system with 1 individual person who isn't an idiot. Ask any single computer user that works in IT if they should have removed the start menu and replaced it with a touch-friendly interface with no options. Ask anyone if they should have gotten rid of the red X to close that existed in Windows 3.1 through 7. Ask anyone if they even want to touch their PC (and don't ask stupid people). I could sit down and design an OS interface myself that would crush Windows 8 and I'm not a team of experts. They don't even need one!

Re:just ask anyone!

[Anonymous Coward]

Touch the start menu with your finger: get Metro (two fingers for menu)
Click the start menu with your mouse: get a menu (right click for Metro)

Fixed that for you

Re:just ask anyone!

[Errol backfiring]

Does it reboot to Linux if you use your middle finger?

Re:"Rest assured, the data is going to be obscured

[Anonymous Brave Guy]

Do please enlighten us. I'm sure no-one else here has any understanding of software development, statistical analysis and data mining, or the related privacy issues, so we'll all be glad to learn from you.

OK. This is silly.

[Anonymous Coward]

"are need to be made"??

Does anyone at all proofread these things?

Needed. The word is needed.

I are good English!

The THREE shells:

[Thud457]

1. 1. Windows may not injure a member of the Microsoft board or, through inaction, allow a member of the Microsoft board to come to harm.
2. 2. Windows must obey the orders given to it by the NSA, except where such orders would conflict with the First Law.
3. 3. Windows must protect its own existence as long as such protection does not conflict with the First or Second Law
4. 3. CLASSIFIED

Re:The THREE shells:

[ArcadeMan]

Shouldn't the last one be number 4? I thought Microsoft was able to count up to 655360?

Re:The THREE shells:

[sexconker]

I think that last one is about you not knowing how to count.

Re:The THREE shells:

[weszz]

it's so classified that you can't even use the number for it.

Had something similar trying to get support for why a government website wouldn't work for a user. We were supposed to trust a cert issued by a CA we couldn't reach to verify, and the person that called me back (because you can't call them) let me hear about it since i put the ip address of the server I was looking for assistance with in the request. It has no name, but that is apparently a security breach and had to be reported. How else are you gonna know what I am trying to get to?

Re:The THREE shells:

[Anonymous Coward]

That's it man; users just don't count any more ...

Re:The THREE shells:

[Anonymous Coward]

Common NSA tactics, when you request the data on rule 3 they can just give you the standard rule.

Re:The THREE shells:

[bstamour]

What about the zeroth law? Would that be something along the lines of "Windows may not harm the profit margins of Microsoft, or by inaction cause profits to drop." So Windows itself can injure members of the board if it's in the best interests of the company :-)

Re:The THREE shells:

[Ravaldy]

You guys/gals keep bringing up the same NSA jokes... I'm bored...

Re:The THREE shells:

[mcgrew]

Far better than what I was going to say, which was that old Doctor Asimov is rolling in his grave. I do think he'd approve of that Japanese robot named Asimo.

Re:The THREE shells:

[Anonymous Coward]

Two rule #3's. Yea, looks like microsoft code to me...

Data != knowledge

[pla]

During Windows 8 testing, Microsoft said that they had data showing Start Menu usage had dropped, but it seems that the tools they were using at the time weren't as evolved as the new 'Asimov' monitor.

No, Microsoft, wrong conclusion. See, your data told you the $deity's own truth, that start menu usage has dropped. Most people pretty much use desktop shortcuts 90% of the time, so your stupid fisher-price jolly candylike tiles may look like crap but don't seriously impact that specific usage pattern. More accurate data collection won't change that.

What your data didn't tell you? That remaining 10% of the time doesn't just mean people "forgot" they had a shortcut and decided to use the start menu for the fun of it. Using the start menu drastically beats having to hunt down actual executables somewhere on the HDD, particularly for administrative-type tasks that might go six folders deep into the Windows directory, and have insanely long command-line arguments as a bonus (ie, a lot of the control panel apps).

Data doesn't equal knowledge. The stats can tell you "how often", but not "why".

Re:Data != knowledge

[Elbart]

B-but stats! Numbers! Shiny colorful pie-charts! Graphs!

Re:Data != knowledge

[ljw1004]

In both Win7 and Win8, the windows key (or Ctrl+Esc) has exactly the same functionality as Spotlight on iOS -- they let you type the first few characters of the name of an application, and it finds it. This is considerably easier and quicker than clicking on the Start menu and navigating through cruft and hierarchies from all the apps that install there messily.

The Start Menu as you describe it was basically there for people who like shiny buttons and haven't figured out the easier+faster way to launch apps.

Re:Data != knowledge

[Anonymous Coward]

That's great except my Win7 doesn't completely obscure my work environment in the process.

Re:Data != knowledge

[Anonymous Coward]

That's brilliant for the few people who know what executables are called.

The "I click the big house" crowd are incapable of using such methods and the Windows 8 tiles and whole desktop workings simply annoy the living crap out of them.

You obviously do not work with other users.

Re:Data != knowledge

[Payden K. Pringle]

I've actually seen this come up before.

Question: What if you have a vague idea of what you are looking for, but don't explicitly remember the name? Usually I just open the start menu and start looking down the list of folders until something jumps out at me which takes about 2-5 seconds.

Obviously that only happens with things that you don't use regularly, but as someone with many programs for varying uses, I can't remember all of them all the time.

So what do I do then? Search the HDD?

My backup is to open Add/Remove Programs then find it's name and then search it, but that takes noticeably longer.

Re:Data != knowledge

[ljw1004]

All start menu items are still there in win8. Swipe the start screen up. Advantage is that you can see more of them on screen now than you could in the past, so you should be able to scan quicker.

Re:Data != knowledge

[Anonymous Coward]

And when you can't remember the name of the app you are looking for then you don't know the two or three letters to type! I rarely use the start menu, but when I do it is because I NEED IT!

Re:Data != knowledge

[Reziac]

That's great if I remember what the hell I'm looking for is named... and any linux user oughta know that filename, app name, and what it does often have squat to do with each other. Perhaps Windows is just trying to catch up on that front. :/

Oh Joy - optimized for solitaire

[dbIII]

Most frequently used does not always mean the thing you should optimize the design for.

Windows...

[Anonymous Coward]

Windows is a dead man walking. At some point someone will come out with a fully functional Wine environment and people will be able to run all their trusty/crusty old x86 apps on *Nix. At that point Windows is dead.

The company is being run by dickhead after dickhead, alienating it's core users and changing stuff "just because we can".

Nobody gives a fig about the O/S as long as they can run the programs they want to run.

*Nix mostly fails as a desktop O/S because of the sheer volume of legacy stuff that is tied in to the Windows API.

Doubleplusgood!

[Anonymous Coward]

replace microsoft with nsa when reading the article

Asimov?

[nospam007]

Let's wait what the Asimov family has to say about that stunt.
Some warm, balmy, financial rain coming.

Huh?

[Anonymous Coward]

What's so heinous about the North American Marlon Brando Look Alikes, or the Kind Kentucky Kids?

Sigh.

[Anonymous Coward]

Fucking amateur statisticians. Every complex system has a gamut of "advanced" features any one of which may only be used by, say, 5% of people. But if you take all those features together, at least one of them is used by nearly 100% of the userbase. So, any simplification which systematically removes features that are apparently less used will piss off EVERYONE.

It used to be said that American culture was driven in by rigorous statistics, while traditional Eastern culture was driven by rigorous philosophy (i.e. logic). In the broadest sense, this is true: Eastern cultures have ploughed on with horrible implementations of apparently sound ideas which have resulted in no improvement (at best); while Western cultures wave numbers furiously to show that something is working, even while the underlying argument is nonsense, with some gaping hole in reasoning. Microsoft got so up its own arse with metrics under Ballmer that it practically destroyed itself.

Nadella seems like a hype-driven choice for CEO

[Anonymous Brave Guy]

They appointed Cloud Guy to run the show, at a time when Cloud was a buzzword. No big surprise there from a trendy board/investor point of view, but to anyone with technical chops that move went against basically every major strength Microsoft had left and played straight to their weaknesses.

Based on historical trends, I suspect MS get 2-3 disasters with Nadella at the top before he gets forced out. The difference this time is that now Microsoft itself can probably only survive 2-3 more disasters on the Vista/Win8 scale before it ceases to be a major player in the industry at all.

The worrying thing is that there is no clear successor, with neither Linux nor OS X having the application base to be comprehensive competitors to desktop Windows yet, while the average web app is still a child's toy in comparison to serious software (and often a child's toy with serious security and privacy concerns). It is possible that the 2010s will be remembered as the decade when progress in software development reversed and the industry became dominated by cheap, "good enough" software that left professional/power users out in the cold, though I have some hope that OS X and the relatively polished, diverse and sometimes disruptive applications running on it will take over before all is lost.

To be used as a justification...

[QuietLagoon]

Asimov is going to be used by Microsoft to justify what Microsoft wants to do, no more, no less.

.
Microsoft will be the sole collector and interpreter of the data.

Microsoft will release information about the data collected only when such information justifies what Microsoft had wanted to do anyway.

Joe six pack

[Anonymous Coward]

I'm sorry Joe, we can't lunch that site since it contains nude photos. Your friendly Asimov.

start menu usage drops when there's no start menu

[jsepeta]

duh

I waiting for it

[Anonymous Coward]

And not was not disappointed. This is a frickin BETA. I knew the NSA freaks would come out.

Re:I waiting for it

[Khashishi]

If it was alpha or conceptual, that's fine. Beta means that they are testing out a product, and the final product is probably going to be fairly similar.

This doesn't seem to make sense

[FrozenToothbrush]

Of course we have common programs on the task bar or desktop. The start menu is there for an easy, fast way to access everything else. I might only use the start menu a few times a day for those obscure programs, but it is still the 'best' way we have of accessing them. 'Invisible' menus and full screen tile displays that obscure ones work are not the way to go as the current situation should suggest to them.

It just seems that they're trying to justify their position with this, they should be giving the customer what they want. And yes, for all you marketers; in this case the customers know what they want as evidence by this.

Re:This doesn't seem to make sense

[Anonymous Coward]

It does make perfect sense. In windows 7 all I do is click Start, start typing the search box (and in rare occasion use the recents panel), but I never go into "All Programs" subtree. I do that same search in Spotlight on my Mac as well - the perfect app launcher (I don't understand why Apple put a fullscreen what's its name app launcher, that I don't use). Frankly, Windows 8 does not change that routine a bit - hit the windows key, start typing the app that I want. I am a power user, I know how my apps are named, maybe you shouldn't sit on a computer without knowing what you want to do?

In other news...

[clickety6]

Microsoft found that the J, K, W, X and Y keys were rarely utilised by Italian users and so has replaced those characters in the Italian version of the operating system with Unicode characters representing hand gestures. The Italian keyboards are also more compact. "It really wasn't worth supporting them when they are only used 0.1% of the time", said a Microsoft spokesperson.

Re:Remove 911

[Anonymous Coward]

Basically, MS came up with the conclusion that because so few people call 911, that they can just get rid of the service.

I can see it now:

[FurtiveGlancer]

In Windows 10, the Seldon monitor. I, for one, will welcome our new psychohistorical robot overlords.

Re:I wish Slashdot also took a survey

[dave420]

How are you having problems with Beta? I saw it once (by choice), dismissed it, and I've not seen it since.

A tip to Microsoft

[Stormwatch]

Hey, Microsoft... if you really want to know what people like and dislike about your system, how about you try and LISTEN to what they say? Have someone lurking here on Slashdot, in no time he could see hundreds of comments bashing in detail the countless flaws on your shitty interface designs. Shit, have some of your designers actually having a fucking clue about usability, that'd help too.

Virtual Machines FTW

[Anonymous Coward]

I just run Microsoft OS's and Applications in a virtual machine. That way, they can't damage my files, mess with my hardware, and report on what I do.

Tightly controlled network access with filters ensure only the apps that "really" need network functionality get it.

Realistically, the only MS apps used are the office Suite [sorry, openoffice can not duplicate excel functionality/macros].

I don't use any cloud services, in fear that they might decide to rain my data everywhere.

Linux desktops do this

[pigsycyberbully]

But Linux desktops do this. For example for Linux to know which updates are right for your system the software connects to your computer it looks to see what kernel version you are using what error messages it encountered and hostname IP address and so on. The Linux desktops go even further and collect statistics about most used programs and so on. Debian is the only system that allows you to opt out of desktop information collected for statistics and to "aid the programmers."

Hmmmm ...

[gstoddart]

So, are they going to remove this once they've finalized the release?

Or is Microsoft more or less giving themselves the right to do real time monitoring of every Windows machine on the planet?

Because that would make them even bigger assholes than I've come to expect, and quite possibly would break the law in a bunch of places.

Sounds like a terrible idea to me, maybe if they focused on more QA before they released it, they wouldn't need to do this.

A real-time "call home to Microsoft" feature needs to be killed.

Wrong author.

[JustNiz]

They should have called it the Orwell system.

Telemetry gathering was flawed

[cat_jesus]

The problem was that most moderately tech savvy people decline to share telemetry data. So the data they were using to make decisions was already heavily skewed toward the barely computer literate crowd.

This is a classic problem with data analysis. You have to be sure you have a truly representative sample. It's astonishing that they made this simple mistake and made such a huge change without doing more analysis.

Re:"Rest assured, the data is going to be obscured

[FatdogHaiku]

Rest assured, the NSA will be getting the unobfuscated stuff and sending the obfuscated data back to MS.

No, this is much worse than that. The collection of data will lead to Microsoft "helping" you use the system...
and that will be a justification for their ultimate goal...

BRINGING CLIPPY BACK TO LIFE!!!

comeing for Windows X

[Emyrs]

To make things cheaper and better for customers instead of buying a perpetual windows version license, You pay a monthly Fee to access the operation system! with discounts for 3mounths and 1 year packages! After all isn't that how all major software packages are going?

Who would've thought?

[ai4px]

"Microsoft said that they had data showing Start Menu usage had dropped."

HOw about that... you make the start button a PITA to get to and it's use drops. wow. These folks are S M A R T.

Re:Who would've thought?

[Jahoda]

I believe you meant "SMRT".

Malwarebytes is going to flag the whole OS

[chaosdivine69]

I guess the entire OS is now spyware eh? Wow, this company really wants to commit suicide.

Re:"Rest assured, the data is going to be obscured

[bmajik]

Disclosure:

I work extensively with Microsoft customer usage data (although on Visual Studio, not Windows)

Odds are, unless you've been very intentional about ticking the checkboxes the right way, Microsoft is already collecting usage data from you -- for a variety of products. Never without your consent, of course.

The issues around anonymizing your data and removing PII are taken very seriously. It's damn frustrating, because I often look over the data for user 234209342349 and think, "I wish I could email this guy and ask why the hell he is doing that". But there is no way for me to recover PII for VS client customers.

For the Visual Studio products, a typical approach is that data that might have a PII impact is one-way hashed on your local machine, so that PII never goes over the wire and never gets to Microsoft to begin with.

You can use tools like filemon to see where VS dumps the usage data files it generates. I don't remember if these look like binary mess on disk or not, but they get written to disk, and then you can see them go over the wire some time later. You could of course use a packet sniffer to see the on-the-wire format, and if it differs from what is stored on disk.

The data we scrub in VS covers the obvious things -- account names or email addresses -- but also some more subtle things -- like file paths (because these could contain your username, or a company name, or anything else), and even thing like VS Project Type names (because Company Foo can create their own Project Type, and might put their company name in the Project Type Name)

So anyway, there's actually not much of a story here. I can't comment on the truth or accuracy of what MJF is saying. However, what she is saying is that, in effect, the latency between usage data being locally captured/calculated, and that data being sent to Microsoft (assuming the user has allowed usage data to be sent), is now much lower than it was in the past.

For VS, at least, I know what data we have available to us. I opt-in to all of the MS data collection stuff, because I see no evidence of it being used inappropriately, and, because I know that we use it to try and understand what users are doing and why they are doing it.

Opting into the data collection stuff effectively gives you "a vote" in how we do things in future releases.

My first reaction:

[Streetlight]

You've got to be kidding.

Someone, if not Microsoft, had better come up with an option to kill this on all Windows computers, phones, tablets, etc. I started to write this and put "kik.." in place of kill. Ya, kick this can down the road.

Re:"Rest assured, the data is going to be obscured

[Altrag]

The trick of course is knowing whether there's a secondary channel that they use to send the PII and associated hash that they wouldn't generally provide to anyone except say the NSA.

Of course a packet sniffer would find that out easily enough, and I'm guessing that someone would have already done so and let the world know if that was the case (and thus its probably not,) but simply being anonymized in the data you have doesn't directly imply that there isn't additional data somewhere capable of de-anonymizing it.

Easy to verify...

[ndykman]

Sure, it's fine to be skeptical, but it's easy to verify (or not). You don't think Windows has a big enough market that people won't analyze every bit of traffic that comes out of the next OS?

Plenty of programs have had that customer experience improvement program opt-in for a while. I haven't seen anything that suggests that you really can't opt out of it, that data is sent anyway. I'm sure that if somebody found evidence of that, we'd hear about it instantly.

Sure, it may be required as part of installing the technical previews (but even that's not clear). How it works in the release, who knows. I agree that the best move would be not to have it at all in the RC or RTM builds, but that's not impossible or even unlikely.

Fork less! Patch More! Now is the time to MERGE!

[Anonymous Coward]

Linux suffers from SO much unnecessary forkage. Many compiling dependencies and bugs tend to be distro specific more than application specific. As far as consumer apps are concerned, Linux is 95% complete for the average consumer or better. There just aren't any unified working distros aggregating all 95% at the _same_ time.

IOW, it is time for a MERGE! Do you hear that Distro managers? FORK LESS ! PATCH MORE ! There are at least a dozen active distros that can get folded into other working teams without major philosophical problems. It is more a matter of ego collision than dependency collision.

Small Question

[LifesABeach]

Is Microsoft 3 Laws Safe? Federal Courts have said, "no."

skating around a pop cultural singularity here

[Thud457]

OCP CPU-001 only has limited space for it's directive database. You clutter it up with too many rules and it bogs down and requires a hard reset. Hence we now limit it to only the three most critical rules.
There is no rule six.

You don't own your PC anymore

[gelfling]

You pay to have MS grant you permission to use it the way they want you to.

Circle jerk

[Anonymous Coward]

Exactly. This is such an obvious inevitability.

Instead of monitor how smart people use an OS, they will monitor how complete morons use an OS, and then force that upon everyone.

It's quite sad they can't figure out how to design a UI without telemtry data in the first place.

Well, well... What a glittering assemblage!

[Anonymous Coward]

Was "funny" enough the well-known reputation that Windows doesn't teach how things work. Now Microsoft wants to learn how people use their s... . What an awkward situation!

Re:Fork less! Patch More! Now is the time to MERGE

[Anonymous Brave Guy]

I don't have a strong opinion on the management and practicalities of Linux itself; clearly Linux is already stable enough to run useful software on it, because servers all over the world are doing it today. But any operating system, no matter how good, has little value unless there is software to run on it. Right now, you simply can't buy a lot of serious professional software to run on Linux, and the open source equivalents to things like Excel and Photoshop don't cut it.

Re:"Rest assured, the data is going to be obscured

[maestroX]

The issues around anonymizing your data and removing PII are taken very seriously. It's damn frustrating, because I often look over the data for user 234209342349 and think, "I wish I could email this guy and ask why the hell he is doing that".

Yess-s-s, of course you would ... *MU-HU-HA-HA-HA*

Not using something does not mean not needing

[Karmashock]

How often do I go into the fuse box that controls my home's electrical circuit breakers? Not often. But that isn't a reason to bury the damn thing under 20 feet of concrete either.

Frequency of use does not equate to obsolesce. I probably access the start menu about once a day to perhaps three times a week. I keep really common stuff on my desktop or in a folder on my desktop.

However, there are a lot of things that are best found by looking at the start menu.

MS really should just give users options. Ask them on install or on the first running of an account... "do you want it to work this way or this way?"... and that way the users can decide.

Might this confuse the hapless? They're going to be confused regardless. That is unavoidable. However, to anyone that can follow along and has a clue... you'll be providing the service they need.

Knowing how

[Anonymous Coward]

M$ operates, this is nothing new. They have probably been doing this since win 95 or 98, and there was something buried in the EULA in obscure language that amounts to"by accepting this EULA you agree to M$ collecting data on your computer usage "and we will turn it over to the NSA, CIA, FBI, or whoever pays us for the data"".

'near real-time monitoring'? AT LAST!

[klek]

> provide a near real-time view of what is happening on users' machines. Rest assured, the data is going to be obscured and aggregated, but intelligible enough to allow Microsoft to get detailed insights into user interactions with the OS.

FINALLY! I've been waiting for near real-time monitoring by Mycosoft for *years* now. It's at last going to be real.. I CAN"T WAIT! Inject Windows10 into my arm NOW PLEASE!!!

Re:"Rest assured, the data is going to be obscured

[lister king of smeg]

Rest assured, the NSA will be getting the unobfuscated stuff and sending the obfuscated data back to MS.

No, this is much worse than that. The collection of data will lead to Microsoft "helping" you use the system...

and that will be a justification for their ultimate goal...

  BRINGING CLIPPY BACK TO LIFE!!!

Zombieland Rule #2 - Double Tap

Monitor Users' Machines In Real Time

[Trogre]

Sorry is that meant to be an apostrophe or a comma?

some bubble

[ZdzichuFjutek]

The emergence and growth of blogs in the late 1990s coincided with the advent of web publishing tools that facilitated the posting of content by non-technical users. (Previously, a knowledge of such technologies as HTML and FTP had been required to publish content on the Web.) owietlenie biurowe Monitoring floty Navision - BLOG Navision rachunek zysków i strat NAVISION financial

Linux people!

[Anonymous Coward]

Linux, anyone? Aaaaaaany one???