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Michigan Latest State To Ban Direct Tesla Sales
An anonymous reader writes As many expected, Michigan Governor Michigan Governor Rick Snyder signed a bill that bans Tesla Motors from selling cars directly to buyers online in the state. When asked what Tesla's next step will be, Diarmuid O'Connell, vice president of business development, said it was unclear if the company would file a lawsuit. "We do take at their word the representations from the governor that he supports a robust debate in the upcoming session," O'Connell said. "We've entered an era where you can buy products and services with much greater value than a car by going online."
Direct sales, when no franchise has been offered, is no business of the state to regulate. Great Job everyone on voting for idiots who like to control everything.
Vote Libertarian in two weeks.
Agent K: A *person* is smart. People are dumb, stupid, panicky animals, and you know it.
America always talks about how the Free Market help keep prices down and innovation high. It's clear from this that we have not had a free market in a long time. New business models come along to compete with old ones, and people pass stupid laws to prevent innovation. Sigh.
the old way of doing things is the only way to do things, right?
It would seem to me that Tesla could re-write their warranty to cover cars after they are re-sold. And if you have a neighboring state that decides to allow flexible temporary titling policies for a modest fee you could buy the car in a neighboring state, pay the neighboring state off and then title the car in Michigan. Traditional car dealerships provide almost no added value in the current market -- everybody builds their virtual car online and then hunts something close. About all a dealer is worth is allowing you to physically check the fit of the seats and the sightlines from the command module.
"It's not bigger government! It was already banned, we're just making sure!"
Time to ban Michigan from any sort of innovation based business.
Except direct sales of new vehicles was already banned before this was enacted.
If some law passed that allowed direct manufacturer to consumer sales, it would be labeled by politicians as a job killing measure that would kill small businesses. Typical election politics.
It's a lot more likely that foreign auto makers would use a dealer network than sell direct though, as there are more storage concerns with the importation of vehicles compared to when they're produced domestically, plus the nature of international trade might require an American holding company to do business more easily.
I think this is more an auto-industry trying to screw with the very nature of the market itself with protectionist practices than it is anything else. American automakers have never happily sold non-petroleum-fuelled vehicles in any real quantity, and while Tesla's cars so far have been luxury, they're looking to ramp up economy of scale and pricing for mid-line products that could really threaten the status quo. Teslas might be more expensive to purchase initially, but their lower operating costs and lower maintenance costs make them attractive to those drivers that don't need to go more than a couple-hundred miles a day and plan to keep their cars for more than a few years.
I can state, definitively, that if a $30,000 electric car with a 150 mile range on a single charge became a thing I'd have to consider it. That's plenty for commuting and errands for my household, and since we already have a four door sedan with low miles as the out-of-town trip car, we wouldn't need extended range on something in the city. Having relatively clean maintenance would also be a plus.
Do not look into laser with remaining eye.
http://www.nissanusa.com/elect...
It's awesome.
I can't justify two cars, and if I own a car, it has to be able to drive 1000 miles in a day. Until that's true, an electric is off the table for me unless it's cheap enough that I can justify the electric and renting a conventional for the road trips. Sadly, $30K is well above that line, MAYBE if it were $15K, and safe (boring is fine) I would consider it.
But then my operating costs are almost zero anyway.
There will be one state, or three, which will allow the sales of Tesla products. These states will reap the tax benefits. And I laugh heartedly at the Governor of Michigan, with broke-ass Detroit, turning away from what could be a spigot full of tax income.
Remember kids, if you're not paying for the service, YOU ARE THE PRODUCT THAT IS BEING SOLD.
I don't know... the idea of buying a car from a company with a reputation for high quality seems awfully scary compared with going in to chat with a high school dropout who knows how to schmooze and is on commission. Personally, I'm grateful for the government's protection.
Could somebody please draw a map showing where Telsa's direct sales model has been banned? Seems like this story is on its way to running 50 times...
The US has 'socialized' markets; most everything innovative is state subsidized (i.e. socialized: paid with your tax money) and state-protected (aerospace, oil, pharma, bio). Everything that's truly innovative, as in the "High Praise the US of A Land of Opportunity" (sure...), --achieved by personal struggle and personal enterprise--, that's who that famous Free Market is for.
Tesla should just wait and be embraced by GM, so they, GM, could either obtain heavy subsidies for it, or kill it off, whichever suits them best. Or, Tesla might move elsewhere, where the market operates similarly, but they don't lie about it calling it 'Free'.
Unfortunately I have to agree with you at this stage. I have done enough super high mileage trips that it would require a second car permanently on stand by. That means double insurance, tax, storage and depreciation.
An average year sees our main car do c45,000km the trips are often 200km+ and to be skirting that close to the range limit that often puts me off.
Tesla can't form its own dealerships in a growing number of states, and existing dealerships don't want to sell Teslas because the market is too narrow for them to reasonably make a profit (case in point: every Tesla ever manufactured is already sold).
File under 'M' for 'Manic ranting'
I can't justify two cars, and if I own a car, it has to be able to drive 1000 miles in a day.
If you routinely have to drive so far then an electric wouldn't work for you.
However, if driving long distances is rare then an electric plus occasional rental (e.g. zip) ought to work.
Well then, they could have used wording like "Domestic" and "Foreign". But they didn't so this argument is bunk.
http://www.mojomotors.com/blog...
http://www.autonews.com/articl...
So buy the car and have it delivered to you in another state. Then move it to Michigan. Standard Operating Procedure. People buy cars all the time and then move from one state to another. People go to another state and buy cars. This Michigan law is merely fanfare, not a real issue.
"Mr. Musk is a brilliant man, and Tesla is an innovative company. We can all respect that," says Jim Appleton, the president of the New Jersey Coalition of Automobile Retails. "But he doesnâ(TM)t get what it takes to do business in New Jersey."
Translation: Musk won't pay off all the useless parasites represented by Jim Appleton and all the corrupt government officials like Governor Rick Snyder the required under-the-table money to do business in their state.
Tesla, open a dealership, complete with a repair and body shop. You can even finance your own vehicles. This can be done in every state. Your prices will go up a little bit.
Politics; n. : A religion whereby man is god.
About 25% of the time I drive 800 miles in a day. I almost never drive at all; if I'm going to own a car, cost of operation is negligible for anything, unless I'm badly overlooking something. Logically my best move would be to not own a car at all, but I'm not quite ready for that step.
Yeah... starting sometime after the 1940's
This issue is a bit more complicated than you think.
These outdated statues were originally designed to protect little dealerships from the threat of big auto opening their own dealerships if one of their indirect dealers refused to carry their lemons. So dealers under pressure from Detroit were forced to sell the crappy next to the good cars.
Today, prohibiting direct sales protects only the dealerships and harms the consumer. There’s no reason to prohibit a consumer from buying directly from the manufacturer.
A typical year for me sees my car doing about 5000 miles, with most of that being a few long trips. If it were a completely rational thing I would simply rent a car for those trips, but I dislike the idea of not having ready personal transportation a few steps away. In case of zombies, you know.
It'll get to that point eventually. Tesla's currently installing superchargers across the country. You can get a half charge in 170 mile charge in 30 minutes (and it's free)
http://www.teslamotors.com/sup...
That's not too bad. Having to stop for 30 minutes every couple hours is a bit less than desirable, but that's a significant improvement. If you plan your bathroom breaks and dinner around charging time, then several of those stops won't be so bad.
To my knowledge (and I'm sure you'll "correct" me), no one is forced to pay anything over minimum wage, which clearly does not fall into "more than I'm worth". Any other idea you may have about being forced, say by a Union, is no force at all. The company came to an agreement with the Union on pay rates of their own volition. If you want to trot out government pay scales, those are budgeted by our own Congress (or a subcommittee) and therefore cannot be counted as forced either. Who's being forced to pay "more than someone is worth" hmmm?
I can't justify two cars, and if I own a car, it has to be able to drive 1000 miles in a day.
I can. As a married commuter, I share two vehicles with my spouse, each of which typically get driven 85mi per day. I take huge road trips all the time, but I can plan which car I use. If I want the option of driving 250+ miles without stopping, I can use the dinosaur-juice vehicle.
A Tesla (or leaf, volt, etc) is becoming a much more serious option for me.
Rent a car for those trips. You can get a car for $100-$150 a week. That is a car you don't have to worry about at all. I have 9 cars. I take trips to Charlotte from DC for work and I still rent a car. My company pays for miles on those trips (or would pay air fare which is normally much higher) and it about evens out for what I rent the car + gas for. State Farm and my AMEX cover any additional insurance. If I get a flat tire, get locked out, it breaks down or whatever, no sweat off my balls, one phone call and 30 minutes later and I am in a different car and on my way.
It was my understanding that many states will not allow you to title a vehicle in the state if you do not have a physical address. If that is the case, any of the banned states could refuse to title one that does not already have an existing title which makes your end run scenario ineffective. By the time I get around to buying one, they'll be antiques anyway, so it probably won't matter :(
For instance, in Tennessee, from the DMV website:
In the case of an individual, Tenn. Code Ann. Sections 55-3-103(a) and 55-4-101(c) require a person seeking to register a vehicle in Tennessee to have a bona fide residence in Tennessee. The use of the term "bona fide residence" simply means that a person is living at a physical location in the state of Tennessee.
How the hell can a state tell a consumer what they can buy online?
Land of the free, as long as you stay home watching television.
Thanks for coming to see me today, Mr Musk. Have a seat. That's a fine lookin automobeel you have there. It'd be a shame if sumthin happened to it, what with the lack of dealerships in this state. Perhaps you should think about opening a few here just in case, ya know for hail or falling pianos. You wanna cannoli?
Actually if that is the reason for doing it then the hypocrisy has more to do with free trade and innovation than big government. The US keeps wanting to setup free trade agreements which export its IP laws "to protect US innovations" and (allegedly) promote free trade. At the same it is passing internal laws to exclude foreign competition and is so hell bent to do so it doesn't care if it damages some highly innovative US companies in the process. Mind you I'm not sure whether this is a case of double hypocrisy or just shooting yourself in the foot, twice.
Why do you need THAT much range, daily? The lowest end electric cars already beat your price (by a long shot if you count tax rebates), and are close to 2/3 of your range "requirement".
I don't understand why this silliness isn't being slapped down by the feds.
My smart electric net cost was about exactly $16500, after rebates, including sales tax.
I mean virtual "physical home" addresses that you can rent, along with the suitable internet proxy server to make you appear to be from that state. Combine this with a "we will deliver your purchased goods to your real address for a nominal fee" service, wrap that all up in a bow, and voila: shiny new car !
Where are we going and why are we in a handbasket?
it has to be able to drive 1000 miles in a day
That's perfectly reasonable; you'd only need to drive at 65mph for nearly fifteen and a half fucking hours without ever stopping to get gas or take a piss. :p
You do know that if your are really doing that for any commercial cause, you are violating at least one of a number of laws. There is a limit on how long someone is legally able to drive in a single day, and 800 goes over that limit. If an employer is making you do this directly or indirectly, it might help to bring that up. If it is just for you, well it is still not legal, but it probably won't ever come up.
My 9 year old car has 62k miles on it. Half those are long trips (vegas, sacramento, yellowstone, etc). During the week I mostly get around on a bicycle, the car is used when I either need to go 10+ miles or carry stuff.
So yeah, unless the car has a 400 mile range (or a 5 minute recharge), electric won't work for me.
As soon as an electric car drives a 1000 miles in a day, you'll move the bar to a 1005.
Besides, your 1000 miles has already repeatedly broken,
http://www.popsci.com/cars/art...
http://gas2.org/2012/06/14/ren...
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What is meant by "direct sales". Is it like in NJ where they can have a rep tell you about it but cant discuss price? In order to buy you have to go to Teslamotors.com and order it yourself? Or do they mean you can't even do the latter and get it delivered to your house or won't give you tags in that state?
Come on now, who among us does not regularly drive down the highway for 15 hours straight while pissing in a bottle?
That's really not very realistic. A couple of thousand mile trips a year would overshadow the cost savings an electric would bring. If you add in the half dozen or so trips in the 300 mile range that *might* be in the range of an electric but would be dicey, then it's really not very practical.
It also assumes that each trip has lots of lead time to arrange a rental. This would mostly be true for the very long trips, but rarely true for the short ones.
I'm always amazed by people who say "Sure, get an electric car, you can rent if you need to go further." In what world does that make economic sense?
Ignorance killed the cat. Curiosity was framed.
geez o flip!
i drove across country this summer in 2 days during june, so daylight the whole way. if i
had had to stop every 170 miles (like 21 times), that would have added 17hrs (50%) to
my trip.
nope, not going to win with this argument.
I dont disagree with your comments. The only problem is Tesla should file complaints with regulators because to me this is a direct violation of the consumer protections laws, and file lawsuits based on violating said laws. Why in the world would Tesla believe in "open and productive dialog" with morons that are bought-and-paid for politicians. Its pretty clear the brainless politicians dont give a shit about consumers rights and "free market". And in an oxy-moron spin, I believe that state is Prepubican (no I didn't misspell that) controlled so it only shows any of their "were here to protect our citizens, and preserve your rights" propaganda when it comes to election time is laughable. Of course few notice how both sides talk out their ass and then do everything opposite behind closed doors.
Of course the Republican Party was the one that opened pandora's box with the patriot act, and country wide domestic spying. And the go around blaming everyone else but won't man up and said they screwed over privacy. Which by the way I believe is still in the constitution at least if your not in government, but apparently once you work for government somehow the constitution disappears.
70 miles/hr * 15 hrs = 1152 miles. this is pretty reasonable in june out west.
leave at 6:00am, drive until 9:00pm. this gives 152/70 ~ 2 hrs for breaks.
i've done it. it's not hard.
captcha: anorexia. well, sort of right in an eliza sort of way.
If you're not carrying a logbook, then there are no legal limits on how far you can drive, at least not anywhere I've ever been. As far as that goes, if you *are* carrying a logbook, the limitation is on hours, not miles, but you're right that 800 miles would bust that limit.
I'm pretty sure this is true even if you are driving as an employee. As a wireline engineer there were no legal limits on how far or long I could drive, because I drove a passenger car. My truck crew were DOT drivers and they *did* have legal limits.
It's been 25 years, so it's possible details have changed, but I doubt the basic rules have changed that much.
Ignorance killed the cat. Curiosity was framed.
A 40 mile range, daily would do me.
But it wouldn't cover the days when I need 7 or 800 miles.
A Tesla with 300 mile range and charging stations properly placed for cross-country trips would be great. I'd jump on that in a minute, if it were $30k.
20 - 30 minute breaks for charging and meals would be fine by me.
Ignorance killed the cat. Curiosity was framed.
I doubt the zombies will leave their dealerships. You're probably safe.
Requiem for the American Dream
I'm certainly no fan of the Republican Party, but the PATRIOT Act and all its progeny were bipartisan.
And the surveillance state got out of hand under the Republicans, but it didn't get any better under the Democrats, so I'm not seeing any partisan moral high ground here.
Ignorance killed the cat. Curiosity was framed.
1. 21 stops * 0.5 hours / stop != 17 hours /hour == 2.6 hours; 0.5 hours / 2.6 hours ~= 20% additional road time for the electric car, not 50%
2. 170 miles * 21 == 3570 miles. 3570 miles / 65 miles / hour ~= 55 hours (which is > 2days even if you drove straight).
3. 170 miles / 65 miles
Apparently your reading comprehension isn't quite there. Did I say we've arrived at the panacea? No, I didn't even say anything remotely like that. What I was saying is that it's a lot better than it was before.
And I don't think your math is quite there either. 170 miles * 21 stops = 3570 miles. Over 2 days, that's 1785 miles per day. Even on the summer solstice, you have only 16 hours of daylight (unless you are up in northern canada). So even if we don't count time to eat, use the bathroom, and get gas, you must have been driving 111 MPH continuously. Even if I grant you the hour before sunrise and after sunset, that's still 99 MPH with no stops.
Not at all. I drive to see family several times a year, and that drive is almost 1000 miles one way. Most of the distance I cover in my car is on those drives. The rest of the time I walk to work, my groceries are delivered, and everything I want is also within walking distance except for maybe once every 3-6 weeks. What is my overwhelming reason to have an electric car? It's not going to save me much money and it's not going to be able to handle most of my driving. Complete and utter fail until they can cover at least 350 miles on a charge and be charged in less than 15 minutes.
No, I get gas, and piss. Then I continue. I didn't say 1000 miles without stopping, I said 1000 miles in a DAY.
My current actual drive is almost exactly 800 miles but 1000 is almost as far as I've ever driven, and honestly after about 1000 it's really no fun.
Great, where do I put the car seat and woman? When I was alone I looked for a Smart Electric but they were not in America yet; I wasn't aware they were now. In any case, my 2012 sedan is paid for now and I can't see any compelling reason to switch; the electric wouldn't cover most of my miles and my daily drive is zero - I walk or telecommute. My annual mileage is around 5K with the vast majority being 2-3 1600 mile round trips to see family.
It's closer, but my actual 2-3 times a year trip to see family is 800 miles one way; As it sits I stop twice due to the combination of range, uncertainty, and distribution of filling stations, and each stop is less than 10 minutes.
I could manage an added 20 or even 30 minutes in added stops but that's as much as I can put up with. If an electric could do say, 600 miles and charge in 30 minutes, then it would be doable; I could either stop a couple times for partial charges or once for 20+ minutes, since in reality no one will want to drain a battery any more than we run a tank dry.
But we're not there yet, not even close really. Maybe close in time until it's possible, but not close in capability now.
Where as I live in a semi-rural area on acreage. It is 7km to my local store and I have two young kids. This means that I do lots of middle distance drives - 20-30km multiple times a day and then longer ones multiple times a week. It's the price of where I live, but you make those decisions. Also I am on the road a lot for work so the drive to the office, plug in, drive home, plug in model doesn't work.
I would happily (well kinda happily anyway) sit at a charging station for 10 minutes if that gave me half decent range. But that said, when deciding on which particular model car I was going to buy recently the range of 1100km on a tank was a HUGE selling point.
I want 150 miles based on the size of the (sub)urban area in which I live. My commute is 20 miles round-trip. My wife's is 40 miles round-trip. I want to be able to at least reach downtown after work and back home again. It's also not uncommon to do things on the weekends that are much further away than work.
I don't think that 150 miles is unreasonable. That's half of the range of a gasoline powered car on a single tank of fuel. I'd love it if a car could get a 300-mile range for $30,000, but I know we're not there yet.
Do not look into laser with remaining eye.
In what world does that make economic sense?
In most people's worlds. You are not average. The average person in America commutes less than 50 miles each way to work and back, and rarely goes further than that. Electric is a massive (at least for now) cost savings in fuel. Whether or not that cost savings is a net benefit to the added cost is of course debatable, but not everyone is only doing things for price reasons. There are many areas of the US where you can basically get paid to charge your car at night sometimes when demand is low, it happens to me infrequently.
An electric car works great for me, and I also rarely drive. Basically I go to the airport and back - maybe the grocery store if I've been lazy and forgotten to put my order in for delivery on time. The 1000 mile trips people talk about here just blow my mind - why would you want to waste your time and attention on that bullshit? I understand if it's for a specific need, or into bumblefuck. But between cities? If it's over 300 miles I'm flying. Period.
It all comes down to needs. If electric doesn't work for you, don't buy it! It will never (at least for a long while) fit the needs for people taking long trips on a regular basis. That's fine - we can eventually get to the point where electric is the norm, and there is a tiny fraction of fossil fueled vehicles owned by those that need them. That's a net win for everyone, including those driving those vehicles.
I have a single car that's electric, now granted it is a Tesla model S. I don't have any issue if I have to drive from the Bay Area to LA. I was planning to drive up to Seattle though sadly I couldn't get the time off of work. The rate they're building superchargers makes it easier and easier for long distance travel. If I need to go on a long trip that isn't covered, renting a car for the few times I need to is still cheaper than all the gas I'd be burning otherwise. I kept my old car for about six months but I never drove it so I ended up selling it. The only trip I've taken where I couldn't take my Tesla is one where I wouldn't take my Tesla anyway since it involved a lot of bumpy dirt roads. In general long trips have not been a problem. While I do have to stop every few hours I find I'm more relaxed when I get to my destination.
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Why would you drive 800 miles? Is your time worthless to you?
I mean, I can understand you preferring that. But to me that is as much insanity as electric cars are apparently to you. I'd rather stab myself with ice picks than be stuck driving a car for 14 hours. I can get halfway across the world in that time in an aircraft.
Just know your needs are in no way indicative of the average trip taken in a vehicle in America. You don't need electric cars to replace every possible niche current fossil fueled vehicles fill. You also forget the average household in america has more than one vehicle - if I were in that situation, I'd buy one electric and one gasoline just to have around in the case of those trips. At least then I'm still supporting an industry that needs to boot-strap, as well as realizing the cost savings for one of our commutes - while still retaining all the flexibility of having a gasoline powered vehicle available for those exceedingly rare trips that need it.
Basically different vehicles exist for different needs. You're not buying a 6 wheel panel truck because you move twice a decade. That is about how often (if that) I'd be taking the length of trips you'd be talking about.
The problem is that you now have the big players writing the laws to stifle competition. In this case, it's not the auto manufacturers, but the dealerships. The dealerships are not the mom and pop dealerships but the huge conglomerates. For example, the 5th largest which Warren Buffet just bought, the Van Tuyl Group does $8 billion in annual revenue. In my area there are a huge number of dealerships under the Del Grande Dealer Group. These are the guys who are paying off the politicians.
To get an idea of why car dealerships are generally so unpleasant to deal with This American Life has a good podcast showing why car salesmen are the lying scum they are. Some of the auto manufacturers would like to ditch the dealerships but they can't due to the laws. Most states have laws that prevent manufacturers from competing against dealerships but those don't apply if there are no dealerships as in Tesla's case.
The dealerships like to make the argument that they add protection to the consumer. This is pure BS. I know someone who bought a Fisker Karma. When Fisker went bankrupt, so did the warranty even for those who paid for it. Most dealerships dropped all support for the car like a hot potato leaving the owners in a lurch or get support from a couple of ex-Fisker employees who do the support on their own and paying for all service and repairs out of pocket.
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That's great that it works for you, however there is no "all the gas I'd burn otherwise" for me, and for what I do there is certainly no economic incentive to buy a car that costs more than my VW and is less capable. I can't remember exactly when I filled up last, but I think it's been maybe 5 or maybe 8 weeks ago. Last time I had to have the car (couple weeks back) the tank was full but I had to air up the tires.
You must not drive much. I drive 40-50 miles every day. I have a tremendous amount of storage and it's certainly fun to drive. I also never have to set foot in a gas station. I spend 5 seconds plugging in at night and 5 seconds unplugging in the morning to a full battery (or whatever level of charge I choose). I don't have to stand out in the weather and wait in line for fuel nor has the range been much of an issue. It's also a somewhat different driving experience with how smooth and quiet and responsive the car is. There is no lag.
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I walk or telecommute, and most things I need are delivered to me. Sometimes I have to run an out of the routine errand, but those are not long (typically less than 5 miles, certainly less than 30) and they are infrequent. Then 2-3 times a year I drive 1600 miles round trip to see family. That's it, about 5K or a little more a year, with most of it being a long road trip that I couldn't use an electric for anyway. So not at all typical, but electrics are not yet suitable for me.
You Americans have the best politicians money can buy.
Sir ( or fraulein ) , you might think if you want to have a car at all, and just fly and/or rent if and when needed. It will save you time and money and probably make a bunch of people generally safer around you.
I wouldn't call ABBA a complete and utter fail if disco has just never been my thing.
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Reinforcing an already existing ban was to make sure foreign markets don't try to muscle in and sell direct.
What happened to the American mantra of competition is good? capitalism forever and all that. Or is it now we can compete against you but you can't compete against us?
Wanna buy a shirt?
https://www.redbubble.com/people/stealthfinger/shop?asc=u
70 * 15 = 1050
Do they have special math in your state?
I have a funny feeling Tesla will try in every single state before bringing any counter legal action.
You drive for 53 hours in a 2 day period? (170/70*22)
That's not safe dude. Or possible.
A commercial vehicle is any vehicle owned by company or used to transport passengers. The limitations only apply to vehicles with a GVW over 10,000 lbs. BNSF, Union Pacific, and Norfolk Sourthern all have hundred of commercial vehicles in their fleet but only a fraction of that number require log books. Every pickup truck you see with their logo is a commercial vehicle that probably has a GVW between 9,000 and 9,500.
"Lack of speed can be overcome. In the worst case by patience." --Znork
This story looks similar to TUCKER adventure in the past century where Ford and other wone at shutting down the company.
Hopefully, this Tesla story will not end in the same way.
In France we're happy that Tesla is boosting this technology. Eventhough France is far from being perfect at hosting companies, Tesla is welcome to move here ;-)
I can't justify two cars, and if I own a car, it has to be able to drive 1000 miles in a day.
Optimize for the common case/s: driving to work and grocery shopping.
If you buy an 'e-car' that can do that, you'll probably save a lot of money, and some of that can be used to rent a combustion car for the long trips.
USA prides itself on it's free market economy, and freedom to buy anything legal ... Execpt if it's a car apparently ...
I have done enough super high mileage trips that it would require a second car permanently on stand by. That means double insurance, tax, storage and depreciation.
it means none of those things but storage cost. The insurance for the second vehicle is reduced, and often the insurance on your primary vehicle is reduced when you add another vehicle to your policy, even if you don't decrease the primary vehicle's mileage. And you get an older vehicle for the second car, and it costs you less to buy, less in depreciation, etc.
It still might not work out, but it doesn't cost twice as much.
"You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
It was more than just reinforcing an existing ban. It also prohibited Tesla from doing a showroom or direct advertising in Michigan as well.
Then clearly the Smart isn't meeting your needs. That's fine. A Honda Fit can't do the same job as an Odyssey.
It really sounds like you might be better off renting for those big trips, if your insurance is relatively expensive. Or, flying, it's an 800 mile trip.
Never underestimate the power of stupid people in large groups.
Albeit they have a GOP governor, Michigan is the bluest of blue states. Let's all watch the fucking ship sink beneath the waves together.
Then don't buy one. Why are you even here? The story was about government restricting a business model, not "OMG everyone should buy an electric car because you're a bad person if you don't". Clearly your use case isn't a good one for an electric car. Not everyone's is. Lots of people's are (including mine, if the Model 3 hits the market for under $30k, it's worth the extra $5-10K as opposed to the equivalent gas-powered car for me never having to set foot in a car dealership).
Never underestimate the power of stupid people in large groups.
PR. If they go to the pols (in a public forum) and ask the uncomfortable questions (as in, who owns your vote today, Senator), and they get stonewalled, they look like the victims (which, in fairness, they are in this case). People already hate politicians so much that making them look like assholes is like shooting fish in a barrel.. with an RPG. Also, they'll probably get overpaid PR flacks from the legacy automotive industry to demonstrate how out of touch they are when it comes to just how much their customers hate dealing with dealerships; this is useful in swaying public opinion away from the bullshit "local business that supports little league teams" argument that dealers like to make.
So, between making the pols look like unreasonable assholes, and making the dealers look like lying bumblefucks (neither of which is difficult), they're well on their way to winning in the court of public opinion, and could potentially have referendums on a ballot that would override what the bought-and-paid-for pols want to do.
Stay on topic, please. There are plenty of places to talk about privacy politics elsewhere on the net.
Never underestimate the power of stupid people in large groups.
Msg to Tesla, pay more in 'political' donations ..
Socialized does not mean paid with by tax money. Socialized means that the workers or public collectively own the means of production.
You're talking about fascism, which Mussolini was fond of describing as "the union of the Corporation with the State."
Those who advocate genocide deserve every protection afforded by law, and none afforded by common human decency.
A lot of vehicles wouldn't be suitable for a lot of different people. That doesn't mean that they aren't perfectly suitable for a lot of other people. I don't even know what people are arguing here anymore.
He's accounting for time dilation at those relativistic speeds.
It simply requires a business presence and that the seller of a new vehicle also provide warranty service at the point of sale.
Tesla is perfectly free to sell cars direct to consumers in Michigan provided they also provide service and repair for those vehicles at the point of sale.
This law is a violation of the interstate commerce clause of the US constitution. Its hard to imagine a more flagrant and direct violation than businesses in one state blocking competition from a business in another state from doing business in that state.
Because our federal government is hopelessly corrupt, and has been giving inferior auto manufacturers preferential treatment for decades in the form of subsidies and bailouts. This is caused by:
A) Trusting a small group of people to make nationwide decisions
B) It's cheaper to bribe a small group than everyone, and
C) There is no effective way to prevent or catch even overt bribes, let alone campaign contributions and favors.
It's a real dilly of a pickle because the people in power now have no incentive to fix it, and the public will never be as rational as the market for bribes. I fear this may be a fatal flaw in representative democracy, and will force us to either pure democracy or market anarchism.
Reinforcing an already existing ban was to make sure foreign markets don't try to muscle in and sell direct.
The last minute change to the law was to change one word; the word that caused Massachusetts to lose the case against Tesla. This had nothing to do with foreign cars.
At 200 miles a day, a tesla would not be a good choice unless you like a added level of stress in your day. I know what the number and stats are for range, but those are akin to the MPG ratings on gas vehicles. If you are in the perfect environment where access to charging isn't an issue, you'd be ok, but that's few and far between in most parts of the country. Add in cold/heat effects on range to the equation too. With the price of teslas right now, if you spent that then ended up being stressed about range issues, I am pretty certain it would be the last tesla you would buy. And for that matter, who would spend this much on a car and be doing their own maintenance on it? Not many. I think the maintenance argument is weak at best. If you do regular oil changes (3000 to 5000 miles, maybe more depending on car and driving style) and don't drive a vehicle in to the ground so to speak (never clean it, never maintain it, drive it like you stole it) non-regular maintenance would be pretty much the same between the two. Plus tesla's main argument for not having private owned dealers is that the cars are "too technically advanced" for private dealerships to work on. Does that mean I would have to send my car to California to have issue serviced? I am sure they have some awesome service program that takes good care of the owners in these events, but I am also pretty certain that this is more about control then it is it being "too advanced". I'd say the Volt, Leaf and others have as much or even more technology and dealers can work on them just fine.
N/T
Electric is a slight cost savings in fuel if you live in California and pay Tier 3 or Tier 4 prices (which you do if you live in the Central Valley.) If I could afford to put solar panels on my roof that might very well change the equation, and prices for that are coming down, so I'm going to revisit that issue at some point.
My commute is far under what you cite as the average -- I drive about 6 miles each way. For most of my daily use (assuming I can bring the cost of electricity down) an electric would be fine.
Once every month or two I make a 200-300 mile day trip (round trip.) Once or twice a year I make a 2 to 3000 mile round trip. Flying could be an option, but not a very good one. It would still involve a decently long drive -- the local municipal airport would mean an expensive shuttle flight each direction. Overall, that's quite a bit more expensive and only a little shorter time-wise. Plus it would mean renting a car at the destination.
But I'm suspicious of what your notion of the "average American" does. I've never lived in a place where putting in a grocery order for delivery was an option. I've never lived in a place where most of the people I knew didn't make occasional trips out of town. I've never lived in a place where "I rarely drive" was an option.
Perhaps you live in a very big city or a *very* small town, but is that really the "average?"
Ignorance killed the cat. Curiosity was framed.
You CAN afford to put solar on your roof. There are several companies that do solar installs based on a "Power Purchase Agreement" rather than an outright purchase, or will finance the panels at a price that still has you saving money per month over what you are paying for electricity now.
Slashdot still doesnâ(TM)t support Unicode after it was added to the HTML standard in 1997.
Unless the charging station already has every charging cable being used - then you are stopping for 30 + n minutes.
When all pumps at a fuel station are being used, it's only a few minute wait. Tesla is doing what it can to mitigate this issue, but it's still a big issue.
Slashdot still doesnâ(TM)t support Unicode after it was added to the HTML standard in 1997.
Driving 105 miles an hour and counting an extra 15-20 minutes for each stop to get to the charging station (you are right, it should be an extra 20-30 at least, as even if they are on the interstate there will be a wait for one of the high speed chargers, plus time to get everything hooked up/unhooked each time) then the match checks out fine.
Drop the speed to 80 miles/hour and estimate an hour for each full charge (30 minute charge, average 10 minutes wait, and 10 minutes each way from the interstate to the charging station) and we are looking at exactly 50% extra time.
How do you multiply one integer that ends in zero with one that ends in five and get a last digit of 2?
Go back to the third grade, you missed something.
Slashdot still doesnâ(TM)t support Unicode after it was added to the HTML standard in 1997.
Sure it's possible, it just requires a larger percentage of vehicle weight to be made of batteries. But it's pointless to lug these extra batteries around day-to-day. So, put them into a battery trailer. You could make these rentable and swap them along the way, or perhaps use the batteries on the trailer first, leave it to charge as you continue with just the car, and pick it up on your way back.
You could also extend the idea to freight carriers, since trailers spend considerable time sitting at the depot waiting for a pickup. Why not use that time to fill onboard batteries? True, you lose some weight capacity, but you save on fuel, many cargoes are limited by size rather than weight, and logistics warehouses tend to be large, flat-rooted structures - ideal for solar panels, which become cost-effective when combined with large storage capacity.
Forget magic. Any technology distinguishable from divine power is insufficiently advanced.
It was ALREADY illegal. The bill just made the legal language clearer supposedly in an attempt to circumvent frivolous legal challenges, thereby costing the state money.
Personally, I wouldn't mind being able to just order a Jeep, GMC, Ford online but that's not gonna happen even if it were legal probably for a VERY long time if ever given the existing mfgs incestuous relationships with their dealers. Not to mention even IF it did happen dealers would probably make life hell trying to get service on a vehicle.
Don't give rat's behind about tesla as they're simply not practical in any way shape or form, and even worse here in the north with further degraded batt perf during winter(or about half the year).
The rational thing would be to rent, but I'm not comfortable not having personal transportation at hand just yet.
Flying takes just as long really (there is no local airport at the other end) and insurance for my low mileage ownership is pretty reasonable. The car is paid for but it is a depreciating asset; logically and practically I would be better off with taxis and rentals, but city life is not how I grew up and I'm just not comfortable without a car in the garage yet.
Then don't buy one. Why are you even here?
I was replying to this:
The battery trailer would actually work, I like it. A decent sized trailer would probably extend the range to exceed that of almost any driver, so maybe no need to even drop or swap; just hook it up for the long trips, and if it's a multi-day trip you can charge the whole assembly overnight. Ungainly but seems practical. Too bad there's no standard for that connection.
After wasting tax dollars passing such nonsense into law the people of Michigan can now look forward to a huge waste of tax dollars as they have these laws struck down in Federal courts. What Tesla has done is designed a car that does not need dealerships at all. The Teslas can be repaired in any small garage and the parts are handled through parts store chains. The car dealers are freaking out as they can not compete. But they need to get the real message of capitalism. If you can not compete close down. You do not restrain trade of competitors to keep your company floating. That is illegal. Why is it that Ford, GM and Chrysler did not field an even better electric car than Tesla? The meat heads in these companies did not want to change and now they face oblivion. They earned their down fall.
1981 version
2014 version
Difference in clause (i):
@@ -1,7 +1,8 @@
(i) Sell any new motor vehicle directly to a retail customer other than
-through its franchised dealers, unless the retail customer is a nonprofit
+through franchised dealers, unless the retail customer is a nonprofit
organization or a federal, state, or local government or agency. This
-subdivision does not prohibit a manufacturer from providing information to
-a consumer for the purpose of marketing or facilitating the sale of new
-motor vehicles or from establishing a program to sell or offer to sell
-new motor vehicles through the manufacturer's new motor vehicle dealers.
+subdivision does not prohibit a manufacturer from providing information
+to a consumer for the purpose of marketing or facilitating the sale of
+new motor vehicles or from establishing a program to sell or offer to
+sell new motor vehicles through franchised new motor vehicle dealers
+that sell and service new motor vehicles produced by the manufacturer.
. . . but I find it funny that they can't seem to get voted into office. Howzat work?
This ban has always existed, the bill only updates a few terms and had nearly full support from both parties in the state congress; which explains why he signed it.
I thought it was Fred Flintstone
Why would you drive 800 miles? Is your time worthless to you?
I mean, I can understand you preferring that. But to me that is as much insanity as electric cars are apparently to you. I'd rather stab myself with ice picks than be stuck driving a car for 14 hours. I can get halfway across the world in that time in an aircraft.
Yes, when I travel outside the Pacific NW I fly, however let's work an example.
Suppose I want to travel my typical route by air (I have done this, it is more relaxing), what does that look like? Well, My day starts around 8am, so giving a little time for the taxi to the airport and the required packing time, the typical departure time for the flight will be around 11am. The destination is my parents house, which is pretty rural, and there is no direct flight near there, so I have a choice of arriving 270 miles from their place around 2pm by the time I exit the airport, forcing them to drive (they are old, so not super cool) or rent, and placing my arrival around 5pm at their doorstep. Additionally I had to do the typical TSA dance where I can't carry my pocket knife unless I have checked luggage and I can't practically transport any bulky or otherwise non-TSA-friendly gifts and so on with me. During my stay, I won't have a car unless I rented for the whole week so I will have to borrow or ride with someone.
The other option is to wait in the remote big city airport 3-4 hours until a shuttle flight, which would bring me a mere 90 minutes away from the ancestral homestead, and I arrive around 8pm, still no pocket knife or whiskey.
Driving, I can load up the car for the most part the evening before, and walk out around 8am with a dufflebag in hand, fire it up and drive away. Some time around 8:30pm I will pull into the destination driveway with boxes of goodies for nieces and parents, and if I wanted to do something like bring a gun for some recreational shooting (these things happen) I didn't have to have TSA x-ray my genitals for the privilege.
If the trip were appreciably longer (this is why I set a limit at 1000 miles) I would and do fly unless the drive is the whole point, but for me and my endurance level and so on this is an easily doable drive and the alternatives are not compelling.
Just know your needs are in no way indicative of the average trip taken in a vehicle in America.
That would be why I said it won't work for me.
Sounds like you'd be a poor customer - don't buy one.
Thankfully for the electric car business, you're also an outlier - the vast majority of drivers daily needs can actually be satisfied by the electric cars currently on the market.
You're special forces then? That's great! I just love your olympics!
If I didn't already OWN a car I would, however since I *do* own a car, what is my incentive to go electric and then force myself to rent for most of the miles I drive?
Do you often fill your gas tank up every two days?
The electric is completely full every morning; your wife's a 40 mile round-trip plus a 30 mile jaunt downtown (seems like an excessive estimate, it assumes that she works 20 miles away from downtown and you also live 30 miles outside of downtown in the same direction) is still only 100 miles.
You're special forces then? That's great! I just love your olympics!
Look, there is no justification for this law whatsoever. The governor is pretty clueless here.
This law cannot stand up in a court. This is an unconstitutional ban and it won't last. You cannot prevent a person from buying a product online if that product is legal to buy.
Also, what determines "online from Michigan?" What if I remote desktop to a machine in a different state and open the browser on that system and buy. Did I just break the law? Or since the system that did the ordering was in a remote state, wouldn't it be legal.
Can I buy it and have it shipped to my brother who lives in a different state and pick it up there?
Can I choose it online, and then fax or call in or is faxing and calling considered "On line". What if I get a downloaded PDF that I mail in? That definitely is not an order online.
Tesla should sue, but so should the state where Tesla has its headquarters.
Well, prices have come down, and will probably come down more. Once I get the new AC paid off (*that* brought my electric bills down) I'll have free money to consider solar.
But given that the hardware price is coming down, I don't see much upside for "Power Purchase Agreements."
But I don't lease cars either. :)
Ignorance killed the cat. Curiosity was framed.
The fact that shit can even still be banned in America, corporate or public, is fucking absurd.
Really? Banning a business from doing online business with an entire state? How is that even legal?
...............Literally the only example where you wouldn''t need this in America is if you live in NYC where there is a subway system.
In Houston, you'll be driving at least 160 miles a day if you live in the suburbs (which you do if you live in Houston unless you're too poor for a Tesla anyway) and you feel like running around town and DOING things without paying for a cab or the metro. If you live out in the country, there's no excuse not to have that much of a range - who knows what you might end up doing.
Some people actually, you know, drive their cars. And they need to go home and stop, forever, but that's a different story.
It's a bit ironic, actually. Dick DeVos Yes, that Dick DeVos, the Republican gubernatorial candidate before Snyder was elected.
Maybe it's precisely because he's got a Tesla, but there are no public J1772 charging stations in Ada, MI, in case anyone was wondering.
you can go as far as you like in your Tesla supercharging stations are everywhere these days.
well that's a half charge say you pull off go sit down and eat etc you can get a full charge witch is like 260 miles on the 85kw model.
Sure, if I want a 30 minute timeout every couple hours along the few routes they service. Hope you didn't want to drive through Yellowstone.
Some people believe the planet is already over its long-term carrying capacity and some humans will end up starving anyway.
The rules haven't changed much. People work to get around them as much as possible, but it gets increasingly difficult. And, to be honest, when I'm witnessing wireline jobs onshore, one of the things that I'm required to do by the (oil company) operations geologist is to audit the driving behaviour of the wireline crew, if they're not staying on site. (If you're the only wireline crew in the country, and 300 miles / 2 days drive from the rigsite, and there's no accommodation within 3 hours drive of the rigsite, you might ass well have them stay in the camp.)
Birds are not dinosaur descendants;birds are dinosaurs, for all useful meanings of "birds", "are" and "dinosaurs"
Maybe where you are. For me registration cost is exactly the same for the 1st or the 100th car. Insurance as well seems to make no difference. You get usage discounts definitely but the insurance cost on a car always has a base line minimum and that amount is higher than the discount for low usage, by an order of magnitude.
Depreciation is more dependent on age than anything else, of course if your car is already old then you have worn most of the depreciation already. But you don't see huge cost differences between a 3 year old car with 30,0000 and one with 50,000 and, maybe wrongly, but I would prefer a newer car for safety, especially for long trips. Finally servicing is done on both mileage and age. You don't want to leave oil sitting in your engine for long periods of time as it turns acidic. Also fuel goes off and can gum things like injectors, plugs, filters and pumps. Which means no matter what you will be increasing your servicing costs.
This ban on the sale of cars by the manufacturers serves no legitimate purpose. From this it may be inferred that no honest politician would support a ban on the direct sale of cars by the manufacturers. Therefore the politicians who voted in favour of this ban are crooks.
Maybe where you are. For me registration cost is exactly the same for the 1st or the 100th car.
You didn't even mention registration cost. Moving the goalposts.
Insurance as well seems to make no difference
get a better insurer.
a car always has a base line minimum
No, no it does not. The number is different for everyone. They basically invent them, that's why they won't share their formulas. It's not because of competitive advantage. They're all fucking people in the same ways. It's to hide the fucking.
But you don't see huge cost differences between a 3 year old car with 30,0000 and one with 50,000 and, maybe wrongly, but I would prefer a newer car for safety, especially for long trips.
As long as it's new enough to have side curtain airbags, it doesn't really matter.
You don't want to leave oil sitting in your engine for long periods of time as it turns acidic.
Synthetics have less problem with this, the more synthetic they are the less problem. Run Schaeffer's or AMSOIL, because the other supposedly "full" synthetics have been tested as low as 24%. Mobil 1 was actually downranked a full grade it's such bullshit.
Also fuel goes off and can gum things like injectors, plugs, filters and pumps.
Fuel stabilizers are readily available, and will easily let gasoline keep for a year.
Which means no matter what you will be increasing your servicing costs.
Again, your logical fallacy is moving the goalposts. I said the costs don't double.
"You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"