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Ask Slashdot: How Do I Make a High-Spec PC Waterproof?

jimwormold writes: I need to build a system for outdoor use, capable of withstanding a high pressure water jet! "Embedded PC," I hear you cry. Well, ideally yes. However, the system does a fair bit of number crunching on a GPU (GTX970) and there don't appear to be any such embedded systems available. The perfect solution will be as small as possible (ideally about 1.5x the size of a motherboard, and the height will be limited to accommodate the graphics card). I'm U.K.- based, so the ambient temperature will range from -5C to 30C, so I presume some sort of active temperature control would be useful.

I found this helpful discussion, but it's 14 years old. Thus, I thought I'd post my question here. Do any of you enlightened Slashdotters have insights to this problem, or know of any products that will help me achieve my goals?

133 of 202 comments (clear)

  1. Water cooled! by lgw · · Score: 4, Funny

    Make it water-cooled! Duh.

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    1. Re:Water cooled! by evorster · · Score: 1

      Seconded. A water cooled CPU, PSU and GPU and be completely airtight. Display might be more of an issue. Possibly use an iPad or something and remote-login via wifi?

    2. Re:Water cooled! by geekoid · · Score: 1

      Because with water cooling the heat magically goes away?

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    3. Re:Water cooled! by lgw · · Score: 2

      Hate to comment on what was a joke post, but can't resist when geekoid is wrong.

      The hard part of a sealed case is cooling. Any sort of air-cooling can't work, obviously. Passive cooling through the case is unlikely with a high-end video card. With water cooling you can have a very large heatsink separate from the sealed case (with the appropriate plumbing), and if jets of water are flying around, you could cool very efficiently by catching a few of them with the heatsink from time to time.

      Yo dawg, we water-cooled your water-cooled case so you can ski while you ski.

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    4. Re:Water cooled! by Luckyo · · Score: 1

      With water cooling, you can lead the heat out without compromising integrity of the box, because the water can be taken in and out of the box in small pipes entry points of which can be water proofed. Radiator meant to cool water will be outside the box.

    5. Re: Water cooled! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Interesting

      The original problem was underspecified.

      Water cooling with or without an intervening diffusion system would work, but only if the water environment were constantly available. Ships use water cooling for their engines because it is reliably available, nearly free, and can be dumped right where our came from without harm. But this only works because ships are nearly always in their operating environment, and when they aren't, they don't start their engines. Doesn't work for seaplanes.

      The proposed system seems small enough to be portable, so will want to work on the test bench. In any case, the OP didn't state the device would always be exposed to water.

      BTW, mineral oil works great when it can be used. Long ago I needed to run a big full-wave power supply bridge at four times its rated capacity, so I removed the four diodes from their big heat sink and immersed them in a mayonnaise jar of mineral oil. (Heat sink wouldn't fit.) It worked fine for a great many years, mineral oil having much greater thermal transport capacity than air, and the mayonnaise jar having sufficient area to dump the heat into the air.

      But servicing components inside a mayonnaise jar of mineral oil is neither a simple nor a neat procedure.

    6. Re:Water cooled! by Sqr(twg) · · Score: 2

      This is currently modded "funny", but is actually a very good solution to the problem. With water-cooling, all electrical components, except the radiator fan, can be in an air-tight enclosure. Then get an IP rated fan, or a larger, fanless radiator.

    7. Re:Water cooled! by Hognoxious · · Score: 1

      Or it could even be part of the box.

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      Confucius say, "Find worm in apple - bad. Find half a worm - worse."
    8. Re:Water cooled! by LWATCDR · · Score: 2

      No but it you could use a heavy AL case with a lot of fins on the box and mount a large water block to the case. The case becomes the heat sink.
      Or you could build large custom heat tubes.which would be more reliable.

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    9. Re: Water cooled! by pla · · Score: 2

      Water cooling with or without an intervening diffusion system would work, but only if the water environment were constantly available.

      I don't understand why this thread has continued past the GGP's done-in-one correct answer.

      Water cooling in this context doesn't mean dumping heat into environmentally-available water like a boat or nuclear power plant. It means you have hollow metal blocks on the hot chips, a radiator on the outside, and some fluid flowing through the system to move the heat from inside to outside. You can thereby make the case completely waterproof while still effectively dissipating heat.

      Now, for a somewhat better question than heat dissipation, how does the FP plan to power this rig? Yes, you can easily use outdoor conduit and junction boxes to get electricity to places exposed to water, but you can't really make that portable.

    10. Re:Water cooled! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      It's a very good point, but here's what I think may work:

      Remember a few years ago where someone immersed the entire system in mineral oil except the hard drive and PSU?

      Well that may very well be the right option but would require a customized solution. A PCIe SSD solves the hard drive question, therefor only leaving the PSU as the only part that can't be exposed to oil. Here's where I think that can be arranged.

      The modular PSU types have all the connecting cables on plugs. So get an extra set of modular cable ends, terminate the cables in the chasis somewhere that is least likely to be completely filled with oil, then use the extra cables and run those to a weather-proofed box for the PSU. HTPC's sometimes have fanless PSU's, but an oversized heatsink may also work. Also you'll want a Motherboard that is rotated so the connectors are facing the "top" , so the entire thing is immersed in oil except for the 2cm that the connectors are exposed to.

      Though what really needs to happen is an actual "immersible" motherboard where the motherboard itself is coated for this, and uses optical network/thunderbolt(mini-DP)/minijack(audio) connections instead of copper. Of course that still leave the problem of how to put USB ports on such a thing. You can't plug and unplug ports on an immersed board because the connectors will make poor contact Perhaps a permanently attached USB hub/extension cords.

      At any rate the solution for waterproof, is to seal the case. Liquid immersed solves that, but is harder to deal with. Conventional liquid coolers aren't generally good option since that does nothing for condensation, and conventional fans are fine with getting a bit wet, but a video card is dead the second it's exposed to liquid. Perhaps there's a way to coat a "fanless" GPU model.

      I didn't read the rest of the OP, but it sounds like this needs to be outside, maybe by a pool, beach or hot tub. In the case of pool/hottub, the chlorine is a problem, but you can actually buy hottubs that have builtin waterproofed Keyboard/Mouse/Monitors, and they just run it to an un-exposed-to-water part of the tub.

    11. Re:Water cooled! by o_ferguson · · Score: 1

      Mineral oil was the first thing I thought of as well.

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    12. Re:Water cooled! by Jane+Q.+Public · · Score: 1

      Then get an IP rated fan, or a larger, fanless radiator.

      The latter. Even if the fan can stand brief immersion, it probably isn't suitable for something that is exposed to water jets.

      So the ideal system would probably be something like this:

      [1] Water blocks on CPU and GPU, and possibly another air-water heat exchanger somewhere internally to keep the internal ambient temperature down.

      [2] At least one internal fan to circulate the air, keeping for example the memory modules (which should have large heat sinks) cool.

      [3] The coolant goes to an exchanger attached to a large external heat sink which is sufficient to passively cool the system in dry air. Ideally the heat sink fins would be oriented vertically to take advantage of convection, as well as shedding water properly. Then you're covered if the water is intermittent, or just not there. if water does come along, so much the better.

    13. Re:Water cooled! by mSparks43 · · Score: 1

      Make it wireless and do the processing offsite.
      Doh!.

    14. Re:Water cooled! by theshowmecanuck · · Score: 1

      And at -5C, as a block of ice it would be really cool.

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    15. Re:Water cooled! by X0563511 · · Score: 1

      You could use a whole exterior face of the chassis for a passive radiator.

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    16. Re: Water cooled! by Luckyo · · Score: 1

      Same way you water proof the outgoing pipes for cooling liquid.

      I suspect that as a concept this will be best achieved as a "case in case" concept, where you do an ATX case on the inside, and pull the external wires (relevant connectors like display, audio, keyboard and mouse) through isolated water proofed holes that you will seal after the wires are through. Same with liquid cooling circuit lead out/lead in pipes.

    17. Re:Water cooled! by Wycliffe · · Score: 1

      And at -5C, as a block of ice it would be really cool.

      -5 C isn't that cold and if the system didn't naturally produce enough heat then a secondary
      heat source would be easy enough. There are simple devices used to keep water unthawed
      for cows for instance. But my guess is that as long as the device stays on that a high end
      cpu and high end gpu would produce plenty of heat to keep the water from freezing at -5C
      and there's also always the option of using a little antifreeze.

  2. Server Techniques by BoRegardless · · Score: 2

    Some servers have been designed to have the motherboard immersed/sealed in dielectric fluid in a sealed box to take the heat out, which would also be in a sealed structure. That stops the need for air as a heat transfer method. Would require waterproof electrical connectors.

    1. Re:Server Techniques by Mashiki · · Score: 3, Informative

      I used to build cabinets for farm use, while I didn't go the immersion route I went with "the box" solution. Basically it meant that air intakes had double bends, sometimes triple bends with a drain hole at the bottom. Doors used a foam sealer, and exhaust was placed wall side. Farms are dirty places, if you're not dealing with feed dust, you're dealing with hay dust, or chemicals for plants, sprayers or livestock. There's always something that would ruin a machine quick.

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    2. Re:Server Techniques by mspohr · · Score: 1

      This...
      Get a big vat with a sealed lid and immerse the whole thing in mineral oil. It conducts heat much better than air cooling. If the vat is big enough, convection will cool it properly; otherwise get a circulating pump.

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    3. Re:Server Techniques by neorush · · Score: 1

      I built an oil cooled machine a few years ago in a fish tank, it was really awesome looking....but....The oil makes all plastics parts and wires so brittle, that in just a few months they snap with any kind of movement. One of the add-on cards I had also had some rubber parts to the capacitors, and when the rubber expanded in the oil it just popped the capacitor right of the board. Also while gaming the oil would push 130F until I put an external radiator that was air cooled on it, if it is run for under 8 hours at a time the oil will actually cool down, and it took several hours to even get 5 gallons of oil warm again. On top of that...don't get me started on maintenance....the oil "crawled" up out of the tank and up the wires. I switched to fully wireless keyboard / mice / usb hub, but the power cord really had to be wiped off every so often.

      While neat, there are some major issues with oil immersion. Instead, a sealed case (hot glue anyone?) and externally mounted water cooled heat sinks would do the trick. The sealed units are awesome, and they don't freeze either as it is not actually water in the sealed units. You can even get self-contained water cooled PSUs now.

      --
      neorush
  3. The right enclosure by plover · · Score: 4, Informative

    NEMA rates enclosures for their ability to withstand harsh environments. Search for NEMA enclosures and pick the one that fits your machine.

    --
    John
    1. Re:The right enclosure by speederaser · · Score: 4, Informative

      Search for NEMA enclosures and pick the one that fits your machine.

      Here's one you might like but it's not cheap at $325 each.

    2. Re:The right enclosure by pelgv · · Score: 2

      But that is an IP24 so it will not work for his application. So he needs IPX6 or greater (usually you will get IP66). Depending on what he means with "High pressure jet" it will be IP66 or IP65. Something like this: http://www.tteglobal.com.au/tt... And then he could use a fan inside with a heater exchanger, water to the outside and another heater exchanger with a fan outside. All sealed.

    3. Re:The right enclosure by petermgreen · · Score: 2

      Theres more to it than that.

      The problem is if you put something that makes lots of heat in a sealed box not much large than the item and don't make any provision to get the heat out of the box it's just going to overheat. So in addition to the sealed box you are going to have to find/build a cooling system that can collect the heat from the components on the inside and radiate it to the outside without compromising the seal on the box and without being compromised itself by the conditions outside. I would expect some sort of liquid cooling to be appropriate.

      Given the wide outside temperature range and the wide range of heat output of a moden PC I'd think you'd also have to design something in to stop it getting too cold, maybe a valve to divert the coolant to an internal radiator if the temperature dropped too low and an explicit heater as a last ditch measure.

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    4. Re:The right enclosure by petermgreen · · Score: 1

      That enclosure does not appear to be sealed, this is good from a cooling point of view but may be problematic if the environment is too wet.

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    5. Re:The right enclosure by AmiMoJo · · Score: 1

      In Europe it's more common to use IP ratings. IIRC the OP will need something rated at least IP68 for this application.

      As well as a sealed enclosure I'd recommend including some desiccant to absorb any moisture that does get in.

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    6. Re:The right enclosure by flyneye · · Score: 1

      Scotch-Guard every bit of the machine that you can. It will REPEL water. It may not be a perfect solution, but, if you keep incidental water OFF the machine, it isn't as likely to wind up IN the machine.
      Unrelated, but handy, use Scotch-Guard on ANY speakers you have. Both sides. This keeps humidity (and water, beer, piss) from expanding the speaker fibers randomly to allow the balance of pull on the frame to become unequal and start scraping your speaker coils on the cylinder walls or magnet, causing heat and eventually fusion.(blown speaker)

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  4. whatchadoin? by jjeffries · · Score: 4, Interesting

    Can you give us curious folk a hint as to what you're doing?

    1. Re:whatchadoin? by Kohath · · Score: 3, Funny

      Obviously he's building an army of robot football hooligans.

    2. Re:whatchadoin? by Tablizer · · Score: 1

      Preparing for global warming near the coastline.

    3. Re:whatchadoin? by Cederic · · Score: 1

      I'm not sure that justifies the graphics card though. That's the bit that's intriguing me.

      What's his use case for a high powered GPU (i.e. higher power than the already 'scarily better than 8 year old GPUs' capabilities available in embedded graphics)?

    4. Re:whatchadoin? by mjwalshe · · Score: 1

      so keep the pc well away from the cutter and outside the cutting chamber

    5. Re:whatchadoin? by Stoutlimb · · Score: 1

      Since he didn't give us any use cases, I'm going to have to assume worst case scenario, which includes resistance to extreme pressure changes as well. What I recommend is immersing the system in an oil cooling tub, and sealing it multiple times, with a stainless steel final enclosure. Liquid filled to balance the pressure is the only way to go if you're dropping a computer down into the Mariana Trench and back and expect it to survive.

  5. Who needs a damn computer anymore? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    Just put it in The Cloud. The Cloud is fun! The Cloud is fair!

    1. Re:Who needs a damn computer anymore? by jythie · · Score: 1

      Joking aside, I wonder why the OP is putting the number crunching in the outdoor box rather then splitting the work between an embedded system for data gathering (or whatever) and off the shelf desktop for processing.

    2. Re:Who needs a damn computer anymore? by timeOday · · Score: 1

      I don't know either but it's fun to speculate - perhaps bandwidth to the location is limited/expensive so they're doing a bunch of onboard image processing to detect whatever they're looking for.

    3. Re:Who needs a damn computer anymore? by jythie · · Score: 1

      *nod* that is possible. I can think of several applications like sensor platforms in remote locations (satellite uplinks are not that great) though even then it still would raise the question of why the data needs to be processed there rather then sent raw. As you say, speculation is fun.

    4. Re:Who needs a damn computer anymore? by tlambert · · Score: 4, Funny

      Joking aside, I wonder why the OP is putting the number crunching in the outdoor box rather then splitting the work between an embedded system for data gathering (or whatever) and off the shelf desktop for processing.

      I expect all of the number crunching is being done by an on-board AI trying to figure out how the heck to get away from the high pressure water jet...

    5. Re:Who needs a damn computer anymore? by Snotnose · · Score: 1

      It's going into urinals to measure the strength and duration as the night wears on.

    6. Re:Who needs a damn computer anymore? by michelcolman · · Score: 1

      Well, clouds are pretty wet, so I imagine cloud computers need some pretty good waterproofing. Maybe send an e-mail to Google, Amazon or Apple and ask what solution they use.

  6. Buy it at VT Milltope by plhys · · Score: 1

    They make "Ruggedized Computers" in Montgomery Alabama.

  7. Start here... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Informative

    http://www.skbspecialtycases.com/

    I deal with this kind of thing once in a while when deploying hardware in freezing conditions (down to about -60F), and the truth is there aren't many options that are as small as you want.

  8. cooling by ixidor · · Score: 1

    you have 3 types of cooling all 3 present different problems. -passive cooling. typical of embedded and low poer, pretty much precludes your fancy GPU. -active, usually fans. suck air in, breath hot out. obvious any rain or spray would get sucked in to, and damage the insides. -liquid cooling. would essentially seal your gear in, and prevent water damage, but is unlikely to fit in your space constraints. so either figure out how to live without the GPU, or see if you can get a small enough container for your oil ( still will have to worry about the pump and radiator parts but that can be made water - resistant). or have the number crunching done remotely, and just live with a raspberry pi encased in something.

  9. This seems the obvious solution by Karmashock · · Score: 1

    http://www.liquipel.com/

    They coat the chips in some sort of coating that insulates them.

    Another idea which I like even better is to immerse the whole machine in mineral oil.

    It is non-conductive. Somethings might need to be insulated against the oil like harddrives but everything else can just sit in it. From what I've gathered the entire tank of mineral oil acts like a giant heat sink to such an extent that a system like that can passively cool itself WITH overclocking.

    I keep meaning to build a mineral oil cooled computer and keep chickening out.

    Anyway, it has the virtue of being something you could seal and then take to the literal bottom of the ocean without worrying about a rupture.

    That is pretty water proof.

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    1. Re:This seems the obvious solution by geoskd · · Score: 4, Informative

      Another idea which I like even better is to immerse the whole machine in mineral oil.

      This is actually not that good of an idea. I ran a mineral oil rig back when I was in school, and the mineral oil dissolves the dielectric used in the "can" style capacitors used on almost all electronics. Over the space of about 3 years, the oil will destroy the exposed caps, and the machine will become flaky and ultimately stop working altogether. Also of note, the oil permeates and partially dissolves most silicone caulk and the plastics used for hot glue. Ultimately, its pretty nasty stuff in spite of appearing to be relatively inert.

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    2. Re:This seems the obvious solution by dgatwood · · Score: 2

      http://www.liquipel.com/

      They coat the chips in some sort of coating that insulates them.

      My first inclination would be to get the biggest heat sink I could find, fasten it to the motherboard, and build a 12V to 5V and 3.3V DC-DC converter (and 1.8V, if needed). By not starting from 110VAC, you can cut the PSU heat to a level that might be manageable without fans. Then get extension cables for any connectors that you want to keep usable, along with a couple of heavy gauge wires for your 12V leads, stick the whole thing in a plastic box or bag with the cables hanging out the top, and fill it with epoxy....

      Mind you, such an approach is almost certainly not advisable, but that would be my first inclination. :-D

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    3. Re:This seems the obvious solution by Karmashock · · Score: 1

      Hmmm... do you have a better solution?

      I know that Cray has some sort of chemical they use for their machines... they've been immersing machines in fluid for years. I assume something more like what they're using would be ideal. Though whatever it is has to be accessible to plebs like you and me.

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    4. Re: This seems the obvious solution by hairykrishna · · Score: 1

      The stuff Cray used was a fluorocarbon liquid. 3M make it under the name Fluorinert, last time I looked it was a couple of hundred quid a litre.

      --
      "Physics is to math as sex is to masturbation." -R. Feynman
    5. Re:This seems the obvious solution by Hognoxious · · Score: 1

      By not starting from 110VAC

      I'm pretty sure he won't be.

      --
      Confucius say, "Find worm in apple - bad. Find half a worm - worse."
    6. Re:This seems the obvious solution by geoskd · · Score: 1

      Hmmm... do you have a better solution?

      I finally concluded that submerging the entire system was impracticable. Ultimately, I concluded that something that just circulated the liquid against the CPU itself in a closed loop would be better. This is in fact what most modern liquid coolers do.

      I looked at a number of fluids including Flourinert, but concluded they were just not really reasonable. Almost all liquids get more viscous as they get colder, which makes pumping them more difficult, and requires special pumps. Many of them are susceptible to contamination which changes there behavior. I've always suspected that the mineral oil became corrosive due to contamination, but I had moved on before I could test anything.

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    7. Re:This seems the obvious solution by dywolf · · Score: 1

      One such system I saw with mineral oil covered and sealed all the caps and similar components in plastic, not too unlike the coating sometimes applied to PCBs. Just much thicker.

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  10. Headless? by StevenMaurer · · Score: 4, Interesting

    This is the big question. Because, to riff off the 14 years old discussion, wireless has progressed leaps and bounds since then. So simply putting the PC inside a waterproof chest and using a combination of WiFi, Bluetooth, and a few wireless display technologies. This is what is presently on Intel's product roadmap anyway.

    Your biggest problem is likely to be the monitor. Every means we have to produce significant amount of light (especially required for outdoor viewing), requires dissipation of heat. That means venting. Which means air holes. Which can get spray in it.

    So really the question can't be answered unless you explain the purpose of the PC. Is it there to do things like take measurements? Can it be controlled from a mobile phone? (they're much easier to seal) This is what is needed to know how to give further advice.

    1. Re:Headless? by geekoid · · Score: 2

      Not if you are using the gpu for number crunching and not display power.

      Come on people. This is basic stuff.

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    2. Re:Headless? by theraptor05 · · Score: 2

      He states that the GPU is for number crunching, presumably with CUDA or OpenCL or some such. While he doesn't mention if video output is required, my gut tells me no - if the computer will be in the path of a water jet, ther operator likely won't want or need to be there.

  11. Re:There are computers built for this. by OzPeter · · Score: 5, Funny

    Yes, you can find off the shelf computers which will do this and which have real GPUs.

    http://lmgtfy.com/?q=ruggedized+pc

    That's not going to help him. Apparently where he is at, the google is broken.

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  12. Ammo Case by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    Use a 50 cal ammo can. 100% water proof. Couple your CPU/GPU heatsink to the case and mount finned heat sinks on the outside.

    Google 50 cal ammo can computer case. You will find a lot of howtos.

  13. industrial computers by confused+one · · Score: 2

    You're going to have a hard time finding a high spec computer that meets your needs, because of the cooling requirement. If I were you, I'd look to industrial enclosures designed for water proof operation. (there are industrial computer enclosures) Make the system water cooled so that you can run cooling lines outside the enclosure and use an external pump and radiator; this will allow you to minimize the size of the enclosure containing the computer. You'll have to accommodate the VRMs and Southbridge, which are typically passively air cooled (but do require cooling). You might try taping off connectors and spraying the PCB with conformal coating, to reduce the damage should water get into the enclosure. Connectors can be filled with dielectric grease on the pin entry side and epoxy on the wire side to prevent water access there.

    I have never tried to do this with a computer; although, the techniques above have been used by me in other applications.

    1. Re:industrial computers by jellomizer · · Score: 1

      I would say use a high end server to do the processing and send the output to a lower end more robust system.

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  14. Panasonic Toughbook by YrWrstNtmr · · Score: 1

    The Toughbook might be an option.

  15. Does the processing power need to be there? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Why don't people provide more details when asking questions? Really, you'd think a bunch of IT related people would be sick of getting questions with vague details and thus be better at making their own questions.

    Do you actually need a PC in that environment? Can you use a rugged wireless display/embedded system within reach of the jet, but connected wirelessly to the computer with the GPU that's in a safe location? This is probably the easiest and cheapest setup.

    1. Re:Does the processing power need to be there? by u38cg · · Score: 1

      Equally, you could take it as read that he has considered obvious things like "don't put it there". It's hardly that difficult a solution to come up with. I understand your thirst for knowledge but sometimes an answer to the question is all that's required.

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    2. Re:Does the processing power need to be there? by klubar · · Score: 1

      The real question is what is your budget? At the very high end, you could get a custom machined box for the heat sinks and customized components. You could also actually pay someone to calculate the thermodynamics and heat flows. As others have stated, detailed specs (application, requirements, budget, timeline, quantity) are really a requirement.

      I'm guessing that there are military, aircraft solutions that fit the bill (but might require you to drop $10K on the system. It seems to me that the requirements for satellites are at least as stringent -- and repair isn't an option.

  16. Is the water jet always present? by loosescrews · · Score: 1

    If the water jet is always present and not too warm, it could be used for cooling. Just put the computer in a waterproof aluminum box (maybe with fins?) and attach the hot parts of the computer to the box with heat pipes.

  17. How to make a High-Spec PC Waterproof? by lippydude · · Score: 2

    Encase the PC in a fireproof rubber balloon like the ones used in Formula One and fill it with perfluorocarbon (PFC), then encase that in a rust-proof metal box.

  18. That's not what I cry by wonkey_monkey · · Score: 1

    I need to build a system for outdoor use, capable of withstanding a high pressure water jet! "Embedded PC," I hear you cry.

    No, I cry - well, no, just say, really - "why?"

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  19. Pelican Case + Thermostatic Heater by localroger · · Score: 4, Interesting

    Double enclosed is best, but you probably don't have room for that. I've been putting stuff in food processing plants for 20+ years though where the conditions (especially during cleanup) are comparable. Find the smallest Pelican case (there are generic knockoffs, if you go with one check it thoroughly before trusting it) and equip it with a thermostatic heater to keep the temperature above 70F or so all the time to limit condensation. Pack in a big bag of dessicant because without double enclosure that still won't be perfect.

    --
    Brackets contain world's first nanosig, highly magnified:[.]
    1. Re:Pelican Case + Thermostatic Heater by NitsujTPU · · Score: 2

      This is the correct answer. Another company is Otter Box. Build the whole thing, pop it in the case.

      Another correct answer, do whatever heavy processing you're doing remotely and have this device just do IO and control. Stick a microcontroller in the box, so it generates less heat.

  20. routers in the rain by whistlingtony · · Score: 1

    I have old Linksys wireless routers with DDWrt loaded out in the backyard. It's Oregon. It rains here... I used tupperware containers(or whatever fits from Home Depot), and a little hole for the power cord and some silicone calk in the hole. You can double enclose, and it'll run you maybe $10. :D

    1. Re:routers in the rain by SeaFox · · Score: 1

      How does it get any ventilation?

    2. Re:routers in the rain by silas_moeckel · · Score: 1

      it's a dd-wrt it does not need any. Nothing like something a a several hundred watt GPU.

      --
      No sir I dont like it.
    3. Re:routers in the rain by Hognoxious · · Score: 1

      we ended up deciding the simple solution to put it in a flowerpot. Long story short it drowned due to standing in water.

      Sounds like an urban myth to me. Flowerpots have holes in the bottom; the water would run out.

      the flowerpot was supposed to be upside down

      Then the water would get in through the hole in the "roof".

      --
      Confucius say, "Find worm in apple - bad. Find half a worm - worse."
    4. Re:routers in the rain by Hognoxious · · Score: 1

      That's not a flowerpot. If it's anything at all, it's flowerpot holder.

      Or a goddam vase.

      --
      Confucius say, "Find worm in apple - bad. Find half a worm - worse."
  21. What about something like this? by Harry_Bawls · · Score: 1
  22. Re:There are computers built for this. by peragrin · · Score: 1

    Not only that he has never heard of remote computing either. This sounds like the perfect job for an embedded machine running Vnc remote desktop or even a Unix shell back to a central server with power to spare.

    Not even internet connected just a remote node will work

    --
    i thought once I was found, but it was only a dream.
  23. NEMA 4X is all you need? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Informative

    I'm used to IP67-IP68+(IE. IP69K) for my work in designing autonomous subs(although I have other experience from GPU mining bitcoins), but NEMA 4X is specifically designed for the high pressure water jet conditions you're describing.

    Although I'm curious WTF you're doing in a mobile/stationary weatherized application that requires a GTX970(A Jetson TK1 is easier to cool and good enough for most computer vision problems)? I'll answer your question directly instead of asking you how I can back out of your difficult design requirements:

    First off: Lets assume IP55 is good enough:
    http://cosmotec.stulz.com/en/products/ventilation/kryos-filter-fans/
    These are the most cost effective IP55 ventilation fans I've been able to find.

    If that's good enough for you: get on McMaster and order a NEMA 4X enclosure and consider yourself lucky that was all you needed. You have an industrial cooling problem, they have industrial cooling solutions. If you want some a little closer to your side of the pond: request a catalog from Rittal or get on their website and see if they have anything that meets your needs.

    If IP55 is not good enough, and nothing as generic as a cosmotec fan or a cooled Rittal enclosure can get the job done: you can start by reading all the other responses and see if anyone has a better suggestion I'm unfamiliar with. If not, your job is either impossible, no one here knows what the solution is(or isn't saying if they do), or you have to go custom. That means in house or out of house design.

    First off lets make something clear: you have a thermal management problem, not a water ingress problem. It becomes a water ingress problem when you are unable to adequately manage your thermal output without circulating air from the outside of the enclosure.

    Shedding the heat of a 500-1000W PC using nothing but convection cooling with the enclosure skin/fins is difficult in the size you've described so the easiest thing to do would be to cheat and exceed your volume constraints via an external radiator in a location where your volume constraints are less of a problem. Supposing that is not possible: in a stationary application the ground becomes a pretty good heat sink if you dig down far enough. An alluminum water block burried beneath your computer circulating water through a NEMA 4X enclosure on the surface with the CPU and GPU pimped out with watercooling blocks. Excluding that as a possibility(mobile application?): pumping the heat in to a thermally conductive chunk of material large enough to dissipate it is still your preferred solution.

    If there is no way around self-contained: you're either going to have to spend a lot of time and energy maximizing the thermally conductive surface area(doing analysis to determine it is adequate to meet your use case a high enough percentage of the time to matter), make the system fail gracefully under the conditions where it exceeds it's thermal management capabilities, optimize system thermal efficiency to the greatest extent possible by doing things like underclocking the CPU and using more CUDA/OpenCL for your code, redesigning your system(using a wireless modem to offload the processing requirements to a datacenter like Amazon AWS or even a closet at a nearby facility), or some crazy combination of all of the above in appropriate proportions to maximize the value to the customer(whoever that is) on the time frame/capital investment scale they are willing to pay for, and/or manage their expectations appropriately to where you can redefine your requirements, and/or claim it's impossible and hope a smarter/more ambitious engineer doesn't prove you wrong.

    The correct answer is so situation specific it is difficult to tell you what to do without more information. These are some of the questions I would ask. Good luck with your bizarre requirements definition. I'm sure you've been painted in to a corner for good reasons and not because of an unwillingness to compromise on the "I want everything" mentality that makes programs like the F35 and F22 so fucking expensive.

    1. Re:NEMA 4X is all you need? by Teun · · Score: 1
      I can add that with high pressure jets you cannot rely on rubber or thermo-plastic seals, the gaskets have to be metal to metal.

      For heat dissipation the whole construction should be in metal and you will have to maximise the outside surface area like with ribs.

      The first thing that comes to mind is a cilinder with a screw cap on one end and fins on the outside.

      --
      "The likes of Facebook and WhatsApp are free to those whose privacy is of zero value."
    2. Re:NEMA 4X is all you need? by jimwormold · · Score: 2

      Thanks for the very informative answer and suggestions. In response to one of your questions about why I think I need such a high end graphics card, I need to do "real time" (ideally at 30fps) processing of 3D data. My current prototype (which isn't ingress protected in any way) runs at around 10-15fps, and with the GTX970, performance bottlenecks are no longer on the image processing side of things (uploading the images to the GPU now takes more time than the calculations), which they were using an older GTX650ti. Unfortunately, moving the data elsewhere for processing isn't an option - there is no guarantee of decent connectivity and the amount of data will be at least 25GB a day. It doesn't need to have a permanent display though, which makes life somewhat easier!

      I can certainly make the box larger as you, and other slashdotters, suggest. In fact I've not "been" painted into a corner, I've painted myself into a corner and am always very happy to look for alternatives as you suggest. I'm a big fan of the keep-it-simple mentality! Ideally, an off the shelf solution would be perfect, but having talked to a few of the embedded pc manufacturers as well as endless googling, it seems that I'm going to have to design/build the solution myself. I very much appreciate your answer and clearly you have a thorough understanding of the types of issues I'm facing, and in a way I'm glad that I haven't missed something blindingly obvious!

      I'm also realistic in that I don't expect the first prototype to work without hiccups, but if I can incorporate as many of the suggestions as possible in the design, then I can hopefully keep the failure/damage/rebuild rate as low as possible.

      Thanks again for your post.

    3. Re:NEMA 4X is all you need? by Kijori · · Score: 1

      Where are these water jets coming from and why is it not possible to move the data elsewhere for processing?

      It doesn't have to be far - just far enough to get out of the water jets.

      As the GP pointed out, with the constraints that you have set out the task may be impossible. The best thing you could do would be to explain what you're trying to achieve, since it's going to save you enormous effort if the constraints can be avoided.

    4. Re:NEMA 4X is all you need? by adolf · · Score: 2

      Hi. I have found the solution to your problem.

      Longer wires. Put the box where the high-pressure water jet isn't.

      You're welcome.

    5. Re:NEMA 4X is all you need? by Hognoxious · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Unfortunately, moving the data elsewhere for processing isn't an option - there is no guarantee of decent connectivity and the amount of data will be at least 25GB a day.

      How are you planning to transfer it, Morse Code?

      On gigabit ethernet that'd take a few minutes.

      --
      Confucius say, "Find worm in apple - bad. Find half a worm - worse."
    6. Re:NEMA 4X is all you need? by Hognoxious · · Score: 1

      What do we have:
      Very waterproof. 3D visual processing. Can't apparently separate the back-end processing from the front-end data gathering.

      Conclusion:
      He's a member of Greenpeace or Sea Shepherd & he's trying to make a kind of autopilot to go on those little boats so they can dodge the firehoses from whaling ships. That or a Somali pirate.

      --
      Confucius say, "Find worm in apple - bad. Find half a worm - worse."
    7. Re:NEMA 4X is all you need? by Hognoxious · · Score: 2

      Why, in that case, wouldn't you be able to put the "brain" out of the way of the jets? Don't car washes usually have some kind of booth/cabin where the operator sits?

      --
      Confucius say, "Find worm in apple - bad. Find half a worm - worse."
    8. Re:NEMA 4X is all you need? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      why is the server on the outside of the ship? mount on the inside with the engines. your com latency will be less then with wireless, by running waterproofed wired connections back there. those engines would get fucked just as hard as the server if they got blasted with water.

    9. Re:NEMA 4X is all you need? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      even processing 4k video will take less then gigabit ethernet can stream back to the C3 server.

      unless latency is your problem, but even then, a 30 meter run has latency of a few miliseconds. only really a problem if thing is controlling a robot that plays ping pong (that latency is less then a human has in it's central nervous system)

  24. Fanless PC by arielCo · · Score: 1

    * A rugged box shouldn't be hard to find - look at weatherized enclosures for radio equipment or, failing that, an AC mains box made for outdoors.

    * A modern CPU and a high end GPU in an airtight box won't be easy to cool. Since your only means of heat dissipation is the surface of said enclosure, it'd better be all-metal.

    * Your next challenge is to convey heat from the CPU + GPU to the box - sounds like a job for watercooling, with regular blocks for the CPU and GPU and a third, possibly custom block attached to the enclosure wall instead of the usual radiator (which requires moving air). Overclocking forums may offer some ideas; also the "silent PC" forums since some are into fan-less designs.

    --
    This post contains no rudeness or derision of any kind. All arguments are friendly. Terms and exclusions may apply.
  25. Update to IOS 7 by Dwedit · · Score: 1

    The answer of course is to update to IOS 7.

  26. Epoxy by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Many years ago, friend of mine was in army. He was in secret devision and one day they give to him a order: "Change the HDD of this PC" and they give to him new HDD, hammer and chisel.
    He has surprised, because when open PC cover see massive block of epoxy. People before just fill the PC box with epoxy and made it fully water, shock and dust proof. Simple and reliable !
    You must keep in mind that may be will have a problem with cooling of some staff like video card. You can do it with water block, if is not possible to cooling.

    1. Re:Epoxy by tippe · · Score: 2

      Yeah, I don't buy it. There are so many things wrong with this story that make it implausible, the least of which is that epoxy-filled devices are not intended to ever be serviced, as it is nearly impossible to do so without damaging them even more.

      Assuming that your friend was telling you the truth, I bet it's probably more a case of him falling prey to a form of "greenhorn" joke, similar to what an apprentice or new construction worker would have to endure on the job site until they proved themselves, like "get me a left-handed hammer" or "go get me a bucket of spots for the spot welder".

  27. Biased, self-serving, I'm the founder by holophrastic · · Score: 1

    www.kioskstyle.com

    1. Re:Biased, self-serving, I'm the founder by holophrastic · · Score: 1

      It's already waterproof from the front and sides, which may be sufficient for the poster's application, and it can be made waterprooof from the back with a few gaskets, or a fully enclosed rear panel.

  28. Enclosure, cooling and connectivity by pelgv · · Score: 1

    You will need an IP66 enclosure. If your water jets are not that powerful maybe an IP65 enclosure. Search for them, there are plenty (not cheap though). Assuming that power is not a limitation (not a green device by any means), you can use a peltier cell or some of them to actively cool your device. Attach then directly to the steel of the enclosure. Put a heat-sink in each side. On the inside you can put a smaller heat-sink with fan. On the outside, use a bit fan-less heat-sink. You will need a big power supply to power the peltiers. You will need IP66 connectors. There are plenty of connectors (Google, Digikey, mouser are your friends). There are offerings from almost any type of connector (USB, Ethernet, Power). There are also LEDs, switches and other gadgets you could use in your box. Using this will be an expensive solution but you will not have problems with water getting into your computer.

  29. Must it be facing the water jet? by pesho · · Score: 1

    Can you place your system somewhere safe and have remote (wireless ) sensors and peripherals?

  30. I Don't Get It by Pete+Venkman · · Score: 1

    This sounds like you are either too lazy or not qualified for this job. My advice is to find someone who installs this kind of thing professionally. You aren't going to impress your boss or anyone else when this fucks up due to you half-assing it based off what someone from /. told you to do.

  31. Solved problem by JimSadler · · Score: 1

    Non conductive oils that completely fill the case can keep water out. Make sure the case has fins for cooling on the outside. Divers watches have used this method to assure their electronics don't drown.

  32. Easiest solution by Khyber · · Score: 1

    Immersion PC. You'll already be working with a sealed case.

    --
    Still waiting on Serviscope_minor to wake up to fucking reality and realize that Jessica Price isn't going to fuck him.
  33. Noax by stinkyjak · · Score: 1

    buy a Noax or build something similar.

  34. Can you break it in half? by fuzzyfuzzyfungus · · Score: 1

    With a ~150watt GPU, plus the rest of the system, you are going to have quite a time with heat dissipation in any case that is sufficiently waterproof. Even fairly impressive looking passive heatsinks are surprisingly feeble compared to the usual 'few heatpipes, bunch of fins, actual airflow' designs that normal PC hardware uses. Even if you can add enough of them to your computer's case, you still need an excellent thermal path from the CPU and GPU to the case(for reference, Zalman released a somewhat ridiculous case for this purpose a number of years back. As you can see from the photos, the design requires a pretty substantial number of custom heatpipes for the CPU and GPU to be in meaningful thermal contact with the big passive cooler side panels, while a custom PSU had to be used to keep that part cool. It also cost $1,500)

    You may also run into trouble, even if CPU and GPU are OK; with high internal air temperatures: most PC gear has a variety of other heat sources(basically anything with electricity involved, VRMs, motherboard chipsets, RAM, etc.) that are typically ignored for water cooling purposes; but which depend on a modest flow of reasonably cool air to stay within their limits. A fanless PC with decent convection might be OK; but a sealed box isn't going to cut it.

    If you can get away with it, your best bet would likely be breaking the problem into two parts: the sealed computer case, with waterblocks on the CPU and GPU, and a radiator with fan for cooling the air sealed in the case and keeping it moving for the benefit of lesser components; and the radiator module, which pumps coolant back into the computer case and cools the heated coolant coming out.

    This should allow you to fully seal the computer side of things(with the exception of the necessary data and power connections, for which IP-rated connections are available, and the input and output hose fitting) without it cooking and dying; and leaves only the radiator, pump, and possibly a fan outside the sealed case in the radiator module. Given the demands of vehicle engine cooling and the common need for fully submersible pumps, both are available in very waterproof versions, and the heat dissipation of the radiator should actually improve if it's being sprayed down.

    If cold is a concern, you'll of course need to use antifreeze in the coolant, and a temperature sensor in the computer module that either activates an internal heater, reduces coolant flow rate, or both, to allow the computer module to remain at a safe temperature.

    1. Re:Can you break it in half? by fuzzyfuzzyfungus · · Score: 1

      I found "GTX 970’s TDP meanwhile is lower than GTX 980’s thanks to the reduced clockspeeds and SMM count. The stock GTX 970 will be shipping with a TDP of just 145W" on Anandtech and figured that they are usually reasonably accurate. The 770 and 780 were seriously thirsty; but allegedly the 9-series is better. I apologize if I am in error.

  35. Re:Doesn't seem too hard. by Sarten-X · · Score: 2

    Even if it cuts through metal, the simple solution is to just not put the computer in front of the jet. Like you said, put it in a box out of the way, with some baffles to stop water coming in the ducts, and just to be paranoid, elevate the computer within the box, so it's not sitting in a pool of any water that may come in.

    --
    You do not have a moral or legal right to do absolutely anything you want.
  36. Pelican case, water cooled, external radiator by sylvandb · · Score: 1

    Somebody mentioned a pelican case. That (or similar eg NEMA 4 or 4x) is a good start. But if you cannot get the heat out of the case it doesn't take much power to cook a PC even at -5C exterior temperature and at 30C it takes very little added power.

    It sounds like you are talking hundreds of watts. So you need to make it entirely liquid cooled. This means everything that would normally have a fan -- processor, video card, chipset, and power supply. In addition you will likely need a fan in the enclosure to prevent hot spots, and if that isn't enough you'll need to liquid cool those hot spots.

    At this point you should be thinking about submerging all the electronics in an oil tank and circulating the oil thru the radiator as your coolant. (Use light mineral oil, because it will get thick at -5C and you may have to heat it so it will flow thru the lines!) Mineral oil submersion will also protect the electronics against condensation.

    The radiator will need to be outside the pelican case. It will most likely need a fan at 30C, so you should use an automotive or similar fan with a proper temperature rating range. Also mount the coolant reservoir externally so you can check the level and fill without opening the enclosure.

    If not mineral oil, the cooling system will need to be filled with something to provide freeze protection below your lowest low temperature. (Antifreeze, various alcohols, sugar water, etc.)

    The pump will likely need to be controlled to run very slowly when temperatures are cold. But -5C should be okay for everything except perhaps fans and mechanical hard disk (so use SSD). For a less power hungry PC or colder temperatures you might need to insulate the case. If the PC must start when cold -5C is probably okay but you may need to provide auxiliary heating to warm it up to maybe 10C before powering the PC (almost certainly required if using mineral oil or at temperatures colder than -40C, but perhaps at -10C or even at -5C depending on your equipment). You can heat the air in the enclosure but heating the liquid in the cooling system is more efficient if it will thermosiphon within the enclosure. You don't want to pump coolant thru the radiator while trying to heat it.

    Mount the equipment without penetrating the case. Keep all electric stuff up as high as possible off the bottom of the case. Condensation or leaks will puddle at the bottom and you want to keep the gear out of that puddle.

    Make the cooling, power and connectivity lines come out the bottom of the case (to prevent puddles from slowly seeping in) thru liquid-tite cable glands (to keep out bugs and lightly pressured water). A drop tube around the exit (or each exit) will help protect against high pressure water jets except for a direct stream into the end of the tube. You might also like a valve in the bottom of the case. You can open the valve and if liquid runs out you need to take down and service the system. Do not make any other case penetrations.

  37. Re:There are computers built for this. by geekoid · · Score: 1

    Man you people are ,myopic ass hats.

    Maybe he will be too far away to connect? To remote, maybe he is number crunching fluid dynamics and hull friction while at sea?

    It is for intense GPU calculation, so you didn't even have the brain power tom grok the most basic requirement.

    --
    The Kruger Dunning explains most post on /. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect
  38. raspi or bbb + vnc by drakesword · · Score: 1

    Trust me, cheap computer + Tupperware + vnc. Keep your expensive equipment indoors and access it remotely.

  39. How to add waterproofing to a hi-spec PC. by hey! · · Score: 1

    Add IPX8 to the high specs.

    --
    Post may contain irony: discontinue use if experiencing mood swings, nausea or elevated blood pressure.
  40. Peltier Junctions by drkim · · Score: 1

    Simple:

    1. Put your conventional, fan-cooled PC inside a completely sealed all-metal case. (With water-tight ports for CAT-5, USB, whatever.)

    2. Line the inside of the case with Peltier junctions wired to power, through a thermostat.

    3. On the outside of the case, aligned with each Peltier junction, you place a heat sink. Heat to be transferred through the metal case.

    4. If the thermostat detects high temp inside the case, it energizes the Peltier junctions to be cold on the inside, hot on the case side.

    5. If the thermostat detects low temps inside the case, it energizes the Peltier junctions to be hot on the inside, cold on the case side.

  41. Old Mac Pro "cheese grater" aluminium case by raymorris · · Score: 1

    Others have posted most of what I'd suggest. If you want to consider running heat pipes to the case and have the case act as a giant heat sink, have a look at the 2008-2014 Mac Pro cases, which are solid aluminum. They'd probably be among the best options for a case that is also a heatsink. Finned heatsinks could be added to the outside of the case.

  42. Passive immersion by ArhcAngel · · Score: 1

    I'm not sure how you will accomplish what you are looking to accomplish in the space constraints you outlined but if you do I suspect it will be using 3M's Novec 7000. It aint cheap but you can fully enclose your box and it uses convection to circulate.

    --
    "A person is smart. People are dumb, panicky dangerous animals and you know it." - K
  43. Are you sure a Sony Z3 isn't enough? by Mordant · · Score: 1

    Or a recent iPad in a waterproof case?

    They're waterproof enough for what you describe.

    What's the application, anyways?

  44. look at milspec rugged boxes by Daa · · Score: 1

    here's one i found only the video processor is not defined linux/win I7 processor http://www.drs-ts.com/pdf/JV5%...

  45. Do you really need a $350 GPU? by Animats · · Score: 1

    Or are you just trying to be cool?

    If you can live with an HD 4400 graphics enigne, you can get a Small PC iBrick, which is an Intel Mobile Core i3 processor in a sealed, watertight box with cooling fins.

    There are industrial cases available for fast food restaurants. Those can handle routine pressure washing.

    1. Re:Do you really need a $350 GPU? by thatkid_2002 · · Score: 1

      If they explicitly say they need such as GPU for number crunching (CUDA) then yes, they do need it.

    2. Re:Do you really need a $350 GPU? by SuiteSisterMary · · Score: 1

      I wonder though, if they really needed it to do that sort of thing, wouldn't they go with something like the titan or quadro or whatever is the one that's aimed at that sort of work, and not at gaming?

      --
      Vintage computer games and RPG books available. Email me if you're interested.
    3. Re:Do you really need a $350 GPU? by thatkid_2002 · · Score: 1

      Price and availability. If you buy a Titan or a Quadro then you pay for that. If you just need a lot of CUDA cores, but not an insane amount, you can buy a cheaper gaming card from your local PC supplier.

  46. Re:Mineral Oil Cooled PCs? by Cederic · · Score: 1

    Holding oil in : 1 atmos of pressure
    Keeping high-pressure water out: many atmos of pressure - in the other direction

    I can use an open bucket as a case for a mineral oil cooled PC; it's not going to help much when you point a hose at it :)

  47. Re:embedded arm w/ cuda cores or fpga in sealed ca by Cederic · · Score: 1

    Nice suggestion - even if he needs more processing than that, it's easier to put 2-3 in and they'll run cooler too, which will help with his biggest challenge: heat dissipation.

  48. Probably asking the wrong question by Kijori · · Score: 1

    I suspect that the problem here is that you're asking the wrong question. You are trying to solve a very hard problem - how do I run a high performance PC in a location where it will be blasted with water jets - but that's not actually what you want to do; you want to accomplish a task. You haven't posted the actual task, so all we know is that it takes place outside and there will be water jets. Even so, that's enough to make me sure that there will be a better way to solve this.

    • - What space requirements do you have? Why can the sensors not go on one embedded device, with 10 metres of cable to the larger analysis box, which sits somewhere where it won't get pressure washed?
    • - Have you considered a small, embedded PC that send the data back to your office? I know you've said this will be used outside, but this is the UK so you probably have some sort of wireless coverage. You may even have wired coverage, since you haven't given us any details of your setup.
    • - How real-time does the data processing need to be? If the answer is "not very" you might be best just storing the raw data on an SSD and, again, analysing it elsewhere.

    Without more data we can't give you a good solution, but even without more data I can tell you that trying to waterproof a high-performance PC (and, presumably, a generator to run it from) is not going to be the right idea.

  49. Why one computer? by MMC+Monster · · Score: 1

    I'm curious why you can't use one computer with smaller footprint (and specs) and send everything via wireless to a bigger computer which is not co-located (and therefore doesn't need the waterproofing)?

    --
    Help! I'm a slashdot refugee.
  50. Use this spray! by StripedCow · · Score: 1
    --
    If Pandora's box is destined to be opened, *I* want to be the one to open it.
  51. Idle temperature by Antique+Geekmeister · · Score: 1

    As many will point out, getting rid of heat is one of your larger concerns. When you say "'-5 Centigrade", do you mean it will be sitting turned off and then activated and then enabled at that temperature? If there's a chance of getting freezing and thawing ice into exposed components, there are a _lot_ of mechanical and electronic devices that do not behave well when abused this way. Simply repackaging an untested design may fail at startling moments.

    It sounds like you should talk to your local meteorologists or marine biologists. I'd asume that your local Coast Guard or equivalent will have a great more hands-on experience than most Slashdot readers working from theory.

  52. think military by v1 · · Score: 1

    I've got some old radio gear from the military, and when you're dealing with a 300w uhf transmitter that needs to go into an unpressurized area of an aircraft, you have to go down this same road, because it needs to be AIR-tight (to a large pressure differential), not just WATER-tight.

    One unit I have here is a tube type amp. Tubes are NOT efficient. Their solution was to make a hermetically sealed case (complete with pressure gauge and what looks like a bicycle tube valve on the outside. A part of the inside is a heat exchanger, and a fan runs internally to circulate air around in the case. There's a 1x1 hole in the back for intake, and 1x1 hole on the bottom for exhaust. That, along with about 24 1/4" bolts and a large gasket, allows this amp to remain sealed, pressurized, and cooled at 30,000 ft. Note that while there was a fan on the inside exchanger, the unit itself had no external moving parts. The slot you dropped the radio into in the aircraft supplied the moving air into and out of those external holes for the external side of the exchanger.

    The old motorola maxtraks were mostly solid-state, but used tubes for their internal PA amp. Instead of a heat exchanger, they used passive radiation for cooling. The power transistors that inverted the AC to run the tubes were bolted onto the sides, were completely covered, but were attached to a large chunk of slightly finned aluminum. It didn't radiate very efficiently, but they didn't generate a LOT of heat, and the plates had a relatively large surface area, so it was enough.

    The tubes on the back were a very different story. Normally you cool tubes with air convection, or in much larger applications, with a built-in water jacket. These were placed sideways in the back, and a LARGE hunk of aluminum fitted over them. The inside of the aluminum was curved to wrap around the outer 1/2 of the tube, and be in contact with it. The outside of the aluminum had many large, durable fins. So these tubes were kept cool by passive radiation.

    Those maxtraks were made to be tossed (literally) into the back of a squad car and go on high speed joyrides without damage. They were tanks, and used NO air circulation.

    I doubt you can use an air exchanger like in my first example, but there it is for reference in case you can use it. You're more likely to go with the second example, and just use a sealed case with a large passive heatsink. You could also just go with the heat pipe and radiator you have for the CPU already, and move that part of it out from the middle a bit, and run the exchanger line(s) out of the main enclosure, exposing the radiator to the outside. That would be fairly easy to waterproof, but most of those exchangers are made of copper and may not fare well when exposed to water. You will also need some sort of a screen / filter to keep the fins clean. The maxtraks didn't care about that, their fins were large plated aluminum, and spaced far apart. Much more durable than a modern heat pump radiator.

    You could take inspiration from any modern day solid state amplifier. Even the audio amps would be worth a look, though they don't actually deal with anywhere near as much heat dissipation. (efficiency can get pretty high at audio frequency, and VERY poor at high radio frequency, making good cooling necessary) Many designs use extruded aluminum with fins on the top and two sides. Salvage a chassis off a burned up audio or rf amplifier like this, and go from there. Waterproofing the enclosure will probably be your bigger challenge than cooling.

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  53. what sort of water jet and how many bar presure ? by mjwalshe · · Score: 1

    answers to those q would help

  54. Put it in a Pelican case for starters... by Ellis+D.+Tripp · · Score: 1

    I put together a system a few years ago for use doing offshore surveying in the surf zone. The system is carried on the back of a jet-ski type PWC, and has to withstand constant salt water spray and splash, as well as occasional immersion. It consists of a PC, a monitor, an ultrasonic depth gauge, a GPS receiver, and a custom keyboard, all mounted on the jet-ski.

    The case is an off the shelf Pelican waterproof travel case, with all connections in and out of the box through Seacon waterproof bulkhead connectors and plugs. Because this thing is in a sealed black plastic box used outdoors in full sunlight, cooling was an issue. It was solved by using a seawater cooling loop supplied by a tap off of the propulsion jet on the jet-ski pump. The monitor is a 9" TFT mounted in a smaller pelican case with a viewing window up on the handlebars, with the UI handled via a custom 12-key "keyboard" constructed from industrial watertight switches in an IP68 enclosure.

    System is still in regular use, with the only repairs being damaged cables when the driver flipped the jet-ski in harsh surf and ripped things physically apart.

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  55. What's your budget by drinkypoo · · Score: 1

    Are you trying to cheap this off or do it right?

    If you're going cheap, put it in an ammo box. Force through it with a duct fan, I'd weld flanges onto the box (since I've got my MIG up and running now) to attach the up and down pipes. This solves your air circulation problems to the point that you might not even need fans in the box. Ammunition cases have rubber seals. You may have to inspect the boxes carefully to find one with a good seal. You'll still need a drain as well, and it should have a long hose attached to prevent spray, and a restrictor to prevent bugs.

    If you can do anything you want, water cool it and make a water block to go on the outside of a truly well-sealed box. Monitor the temps in the box and run seti, folding@home etc for heat if necessary.

    Or, how about a waterproof enclosure which can't handle direct spray inside of a bigger box with drains which will deflect it? That's how cars work. It's remarkably effective

    --
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    1. Re:What's your budget by RockDoctor · · Score: 1
      Drinky is right : the first important question is budget.

      I routinely work with PC-like systems that go to 3km water depth (on Remote Operated Vehicles). I routinely work with systems that work in atmospheres where explosive gas compositions are present in normal operations (that's as severe if not more severe a problem then your "water jet" problem). The budget is everything.

      The trivial answer to "a PC that can resist a water jet" is "buy an IP67 or IP68 junction box and build it in that. Ours cost about £5000 a piece, and another couple of thousand for the equipment to go inside, then 2 weeks of technician time to build everything, route the cables to the control switches. Then another couple of thousand for the testing to confirm gas tightness. Oh, and about £3000 for the purge gas control system. If you can do without the ExD / ExE certification, then you should be able to get some change out of ten thousand quid.

      You're implying that the PC interacts with a human who is also exposed to the high-pressure water jet. Your health and safety risk analysis is likely to have flagged this as a point where you're really at risk of criminal charges if anything goes wrong and one of your employees gets hurt by the water jet, let alone it's interaction with the mains power in the PC.

      If your human is elsewhere, or the interaction doesn't have to be highly direct, then it will be far and away simpler, and much cheaper, to move the PC out of the wet and hazardous zone, and into a secure cabinet somewhere. If you've got sensors / actuators that need short cables ... well, there are things you can do about that. I've spent the thick end of thirty years going out to oil rigs at irregular intervals (irregular now, more often in the past when I'd double up as an installation technician ; small company, the technician department is 2-fold bigger now than the entire company was when I joined) to install complex arrays of sensors with VGA-SVGA displays at remote locations on the rig, sometimes in flammable gas areas, other times in safe areas. Kilometre-length cable runs are nothing unusual, when you see the routing you have to take through the maze of cable trays, transits and moving parts. With such a sketchy description, I'm really quite that you actually need to solve this "waterproof PC" problem, instead of the much simpler problem of how to connect a PC to a waterproof keyboard / touchscreen/ display / sensors unit. The problems of cabling in such areas have been solved decades ago.

      You probably need to speak to someone who is a currently-ticketed instrument technician. From when I was doing this stuff regularly, I'd know there were some situations where I'd have to use these instead of these (and, of course, vice versae). But if I were working on equipment that was to be inspected by a different (foreign, American) inspection agency, neither would be acceptable and we'd have to re-gland everything. It's a minefield!

      The cheap and nasty answer is to build the computer into one of these, appropriately glanded, and the display into another one, also appropriately glanded. Then put each unit into one of these , again, appropriately glanded. The outer case will be able to protect the inner case to survive the water pressures you're talking about. Won't cost much more than £1000, plus glanding. Take a day or so to put together (that's what - £400 technician time?). Not pretty. Effective.

      --
      Birds are not dinosaur descendants;birds are dinosaurs, for all useful meanings of "birds", "are" and "dinosaurs"
    2. Re:What's your budget by RockDoctor · · Score: 1
      I should point out that I use the RS catalog purely because it's well-known and they're not too snotty about setting up small accounts. Or, if you're within reach of one of their trade counters, paying cash on the nail and collecting. There are others who are often somewhat cheaper. When specifying jobs like this, a morning of shopping can often lead to a saving of the whole cost of your day's searching. And you can often get another few percent of savings by taking the shopping list to a local electronics factor who can probably negotiate a bulk-saving from appropriate manufacturers and cut RS (Farnell, whoever) out of the loop altogether.

      Being in oil-and-gas country, we've got a choice of such experienced factors locally. you may need to contact ... well, you know your area's business specialities. People who install petrol stations have to deal with ExE electricals all the time ; try them.

      --
      Birds are not dinosaur descendants;birds are dinosaurs, for all useful meanings of "birds", "are" and "dinosaurs"
  56. Handyman's Secret Weapon... by DiEx-15 · · Score: 1

    Duct Tape.

    Just remember: If the women don't find you handsome, they should at least find you handy!

  57. Sealed tank by aurizon · · Score: 1

    Buy an industrial aluminum external mount box with gasket sealed top and bottom you bolt on and seal.
    It must also have sealed power and monitor data entry/exit and whatever on-off/reset switch is needed.
    You need to transfer heat from the CPU to the walls. The standard CPU cooler is fine, it transfers the heat to the inside air - but you also need to couple the internal air heat to the wall. So you mount a few aluminum fanned heat sinks flat to the aluminum walls by screws to the brackets that the case will have because you chose such a case from a catalog. For a typical system that dissipates about 300 watts, and the heat sinks will need thermal grease to the walls.
    A sealed oil filled case will also work, remove the fan and rely on bulk convection to the low viscosity oil that fills the case totally. This will also need power, data, reset in/out.

    There might be cases that fit your needs off the catalog floor = $$$

  58. ambient temperature by femsta · · Score: 1

    You say you are UK based and the ambient temperature is from - 5 to 30 degrees C. Which part of the UK enjoys 30 degrees C? Also are you eliminating Scotland from your travels where it can get lower than -20 degrees C?

  59. Embedded with DSP by solid_liq · · Score: 1

    It sounds like you're using the GPU as a DSP. Why not just get an embedded processor with a built in DSP? An example of an older generation one is the Atmel at9g45m. This is an older ARM core processor which has more power than you would expect. You can probably get away with using a fanless ARM system for your application. You may even find one that has enough processing power which doesn't even need a heatsink.

  60. Two ways to do it by Methadras · · Score: 1

    Either conformally coat the entire system and/or stick it into a NEMA IP68 box with ducting for air intake that will never allow water to intrude, so ground facing intakes and outakes.

  61. Re:Looks right to me by petermgreen · · Score: 1

    It looks to me like it has two fans (presumablly intake and exhaust) with covers that have an opening on the bottom. That's probablly fine for keeping most weather out but not so good against high pressure jets.

    --
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  62. put it inside by stealth_finger · · Score: 1

    Put it inside a building and just run really long wires to what you need? Why does the whole system have to outside where high pressure water jets are an issue, is this going inside a carwash or something? A bit more context would be handy here.

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