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FedEx Won't Ship DIY Gunsmithing Machine
An anonymous reader writes Last fall, Defense Distributed — the company created by Cody Wilson of 3D-printed gun fame — announced a DIY gunsmithing machine called the Ghost Gunner. Now, FedEx is refusing to ship the device, saying there are laws or regulations that would prohibit them from shipment. A FedEx spokesperson said, "This device is capable of manufacturing firearms, and potentially by private individuals. We are uncertain at this time whether this device is a regulated commodity by local, state or federal governments. As such, to ensure we comply with the applicable law and regulations, FedEx declined to ship this device until we know more about how it will be regulated." Wilson argues, "They’re acting like this is legal when in fact it’s the expression of a political preference. The artifact that they’re shipping is a CNC mill. There’s nothing about it that is specifically related to firearms except the hocus pocus of the marketing."
There are no regulations covering firearms manufacturing equipment; at least not YET. They are just covering their asses.
Okay guys, plan B: Print up all new boxes that say "Electronic Unicorn Fabricator". Then we'll start printing FedEx stickers.
Hand tools can make firearms,
household cleaners can make explosives,
a sponge can be used to choke someone to death...
You can not regulate possible future events,
you can not outlaw human free will.
I have worked for fedex for 15 years. I assure you this is not a hippie liberal company.
Corporations are naturally risk adverse. And it doesn't matter if it's a marketed mill... we can't ship a ball bearing certain places if you tell us it can be used on a tank. Regulations are what they are.
Can't they refuse to ship anything on whatever grounds they want, or are they mandated to carry anything that they aren't banned from shipping?
Shoot!
Just how safe are rights such as gay marriage when ones explicitly protected by the US Constitution are ignored?
Because the entire point of the 2nd Amendment was to make sure the government didn't outgun the population.
For obvious fucking reasons.
Those guys refused to ship my recalled rifle to the manufacturer for a safety repair. They didn't care it was a recall and that it was legal. I ended up going with UPS who said it was a common complaint.
Because of the possibility that bulk cellulose based dry materials in leaf form are a precursor to a potentially-restricted incendiary weapon, we must prevent all future book shipments until local and federal laws and regulations regarding these materials are made clear.
Because that's all it is... and there are plenty of cheaper ones out there.
Lol. If he just told the FedEx rep that he was shipping 1'x1'x1' aluminum mills, there would be no problem. This is what he gets for over sharing. It's like telling police officers you smoke weed.
Does anyone use fedex..UPS FTW
What's your problem Cody? If it's just a CNC mill, than ship it as a CNC mill with some extra data files.
You really, really need to learn something from the sex toy industry. There are all kinds of silly legal bans in a number of states on various flavors of vibrators. The industry gets around it every time simply by using different descriptions and labels.
It's not hard.
Intent matters. You sell a bong as for tobacco and you're fine - you sell it as "FOR GETTING HIGH ON MARIJUANA" and you're in the shit. Argue with the law if you want (although the law makes a lot more sense than geeks like to think), but don't argue from a position of ignorance.
So here's a guy who calls himself a "libertarian", declaring that it's not legal for a private entity to refuse to do business with him based on their political views.
http://alternatives.rzero.com/
If that's all it is, then there's not much of a problem. People can just order one of the other CNC machines.
It's almost like he was more interested in publicity than in actually shipping a product.
People who say "sheeple" have about as much sophistication as an AOL user, and in fact are probably actually AOL users.
Didn't realize the progress that has been made, thanks for keeping me informed FedEx!
Watch out for tools in general folks. Imagine if you bought a screwdriver online - it could be used to make BOMBS and such. That's why we have to ban all the tools.
They are not just avoiding a legal liability situation, but an ethical liability situation as well.
They won't ship a CNC mill for the above stated reason, yet they'll gladly ship functional firearms on a regular basis?
I understand why a company would worry about this. They want to save their business and don't want to be wrapped up in something bad. But here is the thing, it seems to me that in this country where we ask the question "Is this legal?" way too often. This is just one case of it. We have natural rights in this country. The Bill of Rights limits what the government can do that could threaten those rights. Buying a machine to make weapons to defend yourself is a natural right. Note, that making a gun for yourself is different than buying one of the machines to make guns to sell to others. That *is* covered by law. Building guns for others makes you a gun manufacturer. The default position should be for a company to say there is no law that limits an individual exercising their right and until there is, we will ship it.
well now everyone knows he has a product. and i doubt UPS will refuse his money. so it is a win win for them, while at the same time painting fedex in a bad light (regardless of this being their "right")
have you seen my sig? there are many others like it but none that are the same
That's not what he is saying. Read the article. What he said was that FedEx is making it out like they can't ship his device because of criminal liability, when in fact, they would just rather not be in the middle of a mess with political dimensions.
Fedex is a for-profit corporation. It can refuse any customer it wants. That's the libertarian way, right? Private individuals and companies should only conduct business with mutual consent? Well, good. The libertarian behind "Defense Distributed" is getting what he asked for.
I worked for a gun store 20 years ago. At the time FedEx wouldn't ship anything that was, or was part of, a firearm. No stocks. I did once ship a small pin and I just labeled it as a metal pin.
By this reasoning, all machine tools are prohibited because they can be used to manufacture a gun.
So just ship it USPS and see what the actual rules are if any do exist.
The USA has a gun problem - not enough people have them.
Net Neutrality for delivery companies... they should be required to deliver whatever I push through their pipe.
And it is not illegal to sell or ship devices to facilitate it.
This is just FedEx and its anti-gun agenda that it is always trying to figure out how to foist on everyone while pretending "it's not me!"
Just more business for UPS
New York is suing UPS for 180 million dollars for not preventing their customers from using them to ship cigarettes and avoiding cities huge revenue stream of a tobacco tax. You think they would hesitate to do the same for machining equipment that has been marketed as able to "manufacture" a gun? http://nypost.com/2015/02/18/n...
I am no fan of firearms and would take them out of your (not cold and dead) hands if I could. That said, isn't FedEx a common carrier? There are rules for such things.
Bruce Perens.
What else can be used in the manufacture of firearms?
* die grinders
* drills
* welders
* Crucibles
* plaster (good for making casting molds)
* springs
* saws
* CNC mills from other vendors
and yet, they have no problem shipping any of that, right?
The Christian Right is Neither (Christian nor right). See: Matthew 23, Matthew 25, Ezekiel 16:48-50
for export only
FedEx is probably playing CYA.
The problem is that DD's box is designed to machine "80% receivers" to completion. The reason FedEx is playing CYA is because an 80% receiver is legally a "non-gun" in the eyes of the BATFE (until the policy gets changed) and anyone - and I mean ANYONE - can buy an 80% receiver because it's just a lump of metal. It's the machining of a couple of holes, pockets, and chambers that convert an 80% receiver into a firearm. Yes, the BATFE pretty much defines a firearm as the part of that can hold the fire control group/magazine/barrel. Which is why the BATFE looks at some of the laws of California (PRC - Majority of US Constitution/Bill of Rights/Federal Law considered invalid there because they're "special") and says "Huh?"
Anyway, since anyone can buy a lump of metal called an 80% receiver - including minors, etc - and also purchase (if they have the money) a "takes no skill to machine 80% receiver into a firearm" box, it's pretty obvious that a minor - or someone else who is disallowed purchase of a firearm - can buy both and fabricate a AR-15 type platform. So FedEx is likely looking at this and going "Yeeks! I don't want to get sued."
Now, machining an 80% receiver to 100% - which takes some skill - in your own home is perfectly legal, assuming you are allowed to possess firearms. Machining 300 or 80% receivers to 100% in your own home is perfectly legal - if you are allowed to possess firearms and do not intend to sell them - but if people [BATFE, local cops, etc] might look at you REAL funny if you do. You can even sell a firearm you manufacture - however, there's a bunch of laws pertaining to how many you can sell, and you can't build with the intent to sell, etc. It all gets into a "can't disprove that you manufactured with intent to sell" situation unless you have a handy piece of paper called an FFL - but if you are an FFL holder, you're not likely to be "manufacturing" with one of DD's "single purpose" CNC machines. FFL'd manufacturers usually have real tools, or connections with other manufacturing companies to get the parts that they want.
The gray area that likely has FedEx a little freaked is the "anybody can do this" combined with the "push a button" features - and the habit of people suing everybody and everything related. Remember, in the US there are the "Can't sue a manufacturer for producing something that does what it is supposed to do" laws which shields companies like Colt, Bushmaster, and other from wrongful death suits, etc. So, in order to prevent the inevitable "sue the delivery company for shipping a device to this guy who built this firearm and then sold it to this other guy who used it to kill a dozen people" lawsuit brought by ambulance-chasers.
I find the "we're not going to ship" response from FedEx entirely understandable, especially considering the "sue everyone" behavior endemic to the US legal system. Remember, under the US legal system, if you can sue your competitor - or person with an opposing viewpoint often enough - you can legally bankrupt them to the point where they are no longer in business - or if they are a person, homeless and disenfranchised. This is not to say I approve of FedEx's decision/policy. But my approval or disapproval of FedEx doesn't matter, since I am just someone posting as Anonymous Coward.
I guess I won't be shipping anything FedEx anymore...
Of all the stupid fuck posts, this one should be on top. He did everything legally to ship his product and for no reason at all FedEx simply refuses to ship it even though it'scovered under their rules and as well it's a legal product to make and sell so f*** you and f*** FedEx too.
This yet another example of the govt trying to force the people to do something that they can't legally stop him from doing. Do any posters here actually read or are you all a bunch of 12yr olds with time on your hands?
I wonder if Grizzly Industrial runs into trouble with this; they explicitly advertise how you can use their machine tools to make guns, and in fact some SKUs are labelled as "gunsmithing lathes".
"Because Science" is one step from "Because old book". Try "Because of my experiment testing my falsifiable assertion".
It's like telling police officers you smoke weed.
No... but it is like labeling the pipes your store sells as "hash pipes". Some stores (possibly only in certain states, especially now that pot is legalized in some states) will happily sell you bongs and small glass pipes and bubblers and one hitters etc etc etc so long as you do not refer to them by any of their cannabis-associated names. Some go a step further, and will ask you to leave the store if you do refer to them by those names, pretending that "they are not in the business of selling paraphernalia". This is a WHOLE LOT like that (though I think the store may have got in trouble with the law _before_ instituting that policy).
It's like telling police officers you smoke weed.
in Colorado. It that still a problem if it's legal?
"There’s nothing about it that is specifically related to firearms except the hocus pocus of the marketing."
Except that for starters it is called the Ghost Gunner.
Secondly, per the homepage for the product, "As shipped, Ghost Gunner manufactures any mil-spec AR-15 lower receiver to completion."
Lastly, per the homepage for the product, "At $1500, Ghost Gunner is the only affordable, automated package for expanding the rifleman's material and political franchise." - Automated being the key word there.
Yeah... Ghost Gunner doesn't specifically relate to firearms at all. Except that when it arrives you can "point and click" (per the homepage) and build a lower receiver with "no experience in CNC machining at all."
What a joke. Call it what it is. A machine to create gun parts in your home, specifically the parts that are regulated by the government. If I were FedEx I'd definitely cover myself. Does that mean the ability to make guns in your home should be illegal? I don't know the answer to that. Neither does FedEx. So what?
When libertarians expound that businesses should be able to deny service to any one for any reason, they also say "but then they can expect to be held up o public ridicule for it." So a baker has a right to refuse to sell a wedding cake to a gay couple, but can expect protests on his doorstep.
Same thing here: FedEx can refuse to do their services for any reason they care to spout (or to keep secret if they wish) as is their right (or at least it ought to be).
Two things though. One is the concomitant public exposure for their decision. If they HAD refused because of gayness or blackness or something else, it would be a media circus. But since they refused on some wishy washy left-leaning reasoning, the normal chorus of "corporations are evil" will be silented for a bit.
The second thing is that their stated reasons are apparently hogwash. Claiming a law requires them to do X when there is no such law is just weak. And they should rightly be ridiculed for that.
Anyone who thinks this is a harmless device that should be sold for fun and profit should be locked in a small box with the key thrown away.
This thing gives license to any criminal to create guns at a whim that can't be traced.
When your loved one is gunned down with one and the police say sorry, we can't help, it's untraceable. How are you going to feel?
UPS once told me I couldn't ship a handle because it was part of a firearm.
Nevermind it had to arrive in the mail to reach me.
It was my mistake for asking them to package it for me.
Once I put it in a box they shipped it as a 'replacement parts kit.'
It sounds like someone is trying to force a company to transport a good to a customer. That sounds counter to the free market as I understand it. Under a free market isn't a company free to turn down any business they don't want to be involved with? If FedEx doesn't want to handle and deliver this product, why are people trying to force them to?
Damn_registrars has no butt-hole. Damn_registrars has no use for a butt-hole.
... to do the exact same thing.
I've decided to stop wasting my time responding to AC trolls/sockpuppets... so if you want a response from me... login.
Whatever weasel words they use to justify their actions, the machine is primarily intended to create weapons to kill and maim people.
Hey dumbass, it's "gunmaker's lathe" and the name is just a colloquialism from the 19th century. It's an accepted term of art, not a marketing device describing the capabilities of the equipment.
I have seen really lousy fathers make loud declarations about how much they love their kids. They are simply trying to gather a pinch of status from others in their herd. Fed Ex puffs up its chest and does something idiotic that they know the public will take as being socially responsible and concerned. It is a twisted attempt at free advertising. Obviously milling machines are sold to hobbyists every day and most will never be used to make a gun. So when did this all start? Back in the 1970s Fed Ex made a fortune with rapid delivery of phone sales checks and deliveries to the victims of telemarketers or phones salesmen. Usually they demanded the buyer send payment before delivery by overnight Fed Ex. The crooks did not use the US Mail due to policing abilities of the Post Office. Then the so called product was shipped. The companies lawyers knew that if an empty box was shipped the law had a better shot at prosecution. So instead of an empty box the buyer might find a piece of scrap wood or a rock in the package. So Fed Ex pulled in a lot of income in the initial overnight delivery of the checks and then collected another fee delivering the worthless package. Since the same addresses were used over and over again as the point of sale Fed Ex had to know they were working for con men and the federal law enforcement folks jumped in and considered shippers to be in conspiracy with the crooks. Eventually this has evolved to a point at which a company can be in trouble for actually shipping a good and useful product such as a small milling machine.
Is it a local/state officer or a federal agent?
So it's not against federal law for citizens of the U.S. to make firearms. Actually as a private citizen you don't even have you place a Serial # on the weapon. This is common knowledge and has been happening for a long long time. Also, FedEx already ships weapons, ammunition, machine guns and other things. It's pretty common today to purchase a Firearm online then FedEx will ship it to a gun dealer. FedEx has also shipped ammo right to my door several times no biggie. Not against the law. So not really sure what the issue is here.
There is no such restriction. We will no longer use FedEx in my company, as a result of this.
We purchase telecommunications equipment and supplies, but we don't feel a shipping company should get involved with Politics.
"The CEO and entire board all comitted suicide right after their announcement."
I would not be surprised if we start seeing stories that begin something like that.
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It's like telling police officers you smoke weed.
I'm in Seattle. So long as you didn't blow the smoke in their face, the police would just shrug. If they were the police patrolling Hempfest, they'd hand you a bag of chips.
Defense Distributed should rebrand themselves as selling printers that make flower arrangements for gay weddings and dare Fedex not to ship.
I think they require holes in the carton if shipping live welders.
"When you have eliminated the unacceptable, whatever is left, however improbable, must be the truthiness" - Holmes
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That is the shittiest CNC mill I have ever seen, let alone for $1200.
I can get a better CNC machine for $600; not a good one, but a better one.
Instead of declaring the item to be a firearm, we simply label it as a " High Speed Long Distance Hole Punch " :D
It's like telling police officers you smoke weed.
Sure, if you're talking about someone in say Colorado. I wonder if FedEx ships fertilizer to Colorado that ends up in drug producers' hands. Actually, the weed smoking in Colorado is still more illegal than owning a CNC to produce your own firearms. Pot is still illegal under federal law. Owning the CNC yourself is exactly what the ATF has explicitly said people must do to be in compliance with the law!
http://www.forbes.com/sites/frankminiter/2015/02/24/why-is-the-atf-moving-to-ban-common-rifle-ammo/
DD wanted to make an issue by pointedly declaring the CNC mill a gun making machine. This was successful, and doubtless achieved the purpose with much publicity. Obviously, the product shipping case could be declared something like a CNC mill and been fine.
I wonder what the reaction would have been if I were to try to ship Armadillo Bile Mixture ingredients:
http://hallowedhalls.wikidot.com/potion:armadillo-bile-mixture.
This is a typical response of these leftist NAZI types. We don't like it, so we aren't going to let you have it. I suppose they will be burning books next.