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Ask Slashdot: Should I Let My Kids Become American Citizens?
An anonymous reader writes "Can you help me decide whether to allow my small daughter and son to become American citizens? I am American and my partner is Swedish. We have both lived in Belgium for many years and have no plans to leave. I became a Belgian citizen some years ago and kept my American citizenship. My partner has both her original Swedish and now Belgian citizenship. We are not married. Instead we have a registered partnership, which is common in northern Europe, confers most of the benefits of marriage, and raises no eyebrows. However, the American government does not recognize such partnerships, so in their eyes I am still single. Generally, children of American citizens abroad automatically become American citizens themselves at birth. But our kids fall under an exception. Male American citizens who live abroad and have children out of wedlock with a non-citizen mother do not automatically transmit citizenship to their children unless they sign an "affidavit of support" promising to support their children until the age of 18. If you don't sign before the child reaches 18, the child is not considered an American citizen. This has been upheld by two Supreme Court rulings (Nguyen v. INS and Flores-Villar v. United States). For legal beagles, the relevant statutes are 8 U.S.C. 1401 and 1409. (Read on below for the rest.)
The kids have Swedish and Belgian citizenship. We could go down to the American consulate and get American citizenship for them any time, but I keep putting off the decision and I am not sure I want to do it at all. Sentimentally I would like the kids to have American citizenship, but there is really only one practical pro to it: American citizenship would allow them to live, work, or study in America more easily, if they choose, when they get older. The cons:
- They would be immediately enmeshed in the U.S. tax bureaucracy, which would require them to file U.S. tax returns for life even if they never set foot in the U.S. This, as I know from experience, is a huge bother, even when you don't owe anything.
- Sometimes they would owe U.S. tax, though, for example for capital gains, unearned income, and in some countries self-employment income.
- My son would have to register for the draft.
- The decision, once made, is difficult to back out of: renouncing one's U.S. citizenship costs $2300 and a lot of paperwork.
- They can easily travel to the US for family visits as Belgian/Swedish citizens.
- There are lots of good universities in Europe. And if they really wanted to study in the U.S., it's not too hard to do as a European.
What do you think I should do? The clock is ticking, and I find it hard to choose between the evil of not being able to be American if they choose, and the evil of unjust, lifelong pursuit by the IRS. Here are two good relevant links.
Yes. They don't lose anything by becoming citizens (there are tax issues but they are pretty minor), and being a US citizen has a lot of advantages, like the support of US consulate services. They can then decide which passport to travel on depending on what is most convenient. And they can then donate to American political causes if they want. On the whole the benefits outweigh the costs, and if it really does become an issue they can renounce citizenship later. However, you and they should talk to a lawyer about this first to make sure there aren't any special issues that might come up in your particular case. When in doubt, always go with real legal help not random people on the internet.
You decide.
Why is 'the clock ticking'? You didn't mention their ages, but say that you have to make the choice before they are 18. Can't they make their own choice, long before their 18th birthdays?
...... you'll regret it. Maybe not today. Maybe not tomorrow, but soon and for the rest of your life.
Silly question. People are paying good $$$ to ditch American citizenship (and worldwide taxation) by the droves and you're considering hobbling your kids to the Home of the IRS? FYI the US is one of only 2 countries that tax non-residents as if they were living in the USA... the other is fuckin' Ethiopia, so that gives an idea of why not to shit on your kids' heads with eagle poop.
The USA is going down the shitter fast. Don't burden and indoctrinate your children with American citizenship.
When they are adults, they can choose what they want to do.
I am Canadian.
It is a common occurrence for Canadian children with one American parent to be automatically given US citizenship. This is not a good thing. The IRS will expect you to file tax returns. They'll try to charge you money, and if you don't bother, it actually makes you LESS mobile, not more.
It's expensive to renounce too. This is a real problem up here, and bites a lot of people. As a Canadian, you can visit the USA mostly without issue (working there is another matter). If you have dual citizenship, there is MORE scrutiny and more complication and more cost.
It is never worth it, ever.
Virtually everyone I know who has dual citizenship has officially (and expensively) renounced it, and none have any regrets, and all are still free to visit the USA.
Your children will be spared when God comes down on the Europeans and their heathen ways. They have gay marriage.
You clearly already know the answer.
You have a long list of cons and the only "pro" is that you feel sentimental about it. With Northern European citizenship they'll never really have trouble going to the US if that tickles their fancy and they won't have to deal with filing tax returns or the draft.
Becoming an American citizen comes with a lot of responsibility and quite literally no benefits.
Really this should be up to your child. If it really wants to become a US citizen, that is possible. If not there really is no reason to make it go through all that hassle for nothing.
Your own list makes it sound like it's more trouble than it's worth.
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Noone gets prosecuted for failing to register for the draft, since it's impossible to prove that they knew they were required to do so.
Until and unless we actually start conscription up again (WW3, maybe?) it won't be an issue.
"I do not agree with what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it"
...because you are in one!
Get the popcorn, because this is going to be good.
that a rational answer is "hell no, there's no reason to get your kids burdened with dealing with the US government and laws".
But I wouldn't be surprised if Europeans said the same about the EU.
My cousin is an American citizen, but lives in Switzerland. Her daughters are also citizens, having registered at the consulate. Swiss banking laws and IRS stuff is coming back to bite them, as they girls are both over 18, and now are working on renouncing. They have American, EU and Swiss citizenship at the moment. I fully support their renouncing, even my cousin, as the US laws have made their lives hell.
I'm posting as AC because I want nothing to impede their decisions, or have anything come back to bite me. If I could claim EU citizenship from Germany, I'd do it in a heartbeat.
No. Never.
I'm an Australian who has lived in a few countries and currently live in the US on a visa. I'd like to get my greencard, BUT NEVER CITIZENSHIP. The tax headache alone is NOT WORTH IT.
If the IRS ever changes its laws on citizens, then maybe, but that is not currently the case.
You can tell how powerful someone is by the magnitude of the crime they can commit and be able to get away with.
I realise that they might be too young to understand the issues involved, but ultimately it should be about what they want. At any rate, it might clarify things for you.
It sounds like you've already made up your mind. I suspect that you can delay the decision until a year or so before the kids turn 18. Your son and daughter will no doubt have a few good ideas about what they'd like to do at that point and I'd seriously recommend allowing them to participate in the decision as near-adults.
From your last paragraph:
I find it hard to choose between the evil of not being able to be American if they choose, and the evil of unjust, lifelong pursuit by the IRS.
The first "evil" is emotional and ephemeral. The second evil is real. That raised question should give you the obvious answer.
If yes: give them the choice. Seeing the number of arguments, it seems the best thing to do: even if the SC refuses it, there are options to become a citizen later using lottery, H1B or simply employment by one of the multitude of global corporations (there are bound to be more later). Borders will become less important over time.
Ultimately, Europe is probably the best bet in this case. The US sounds nice, and is a nice country to travel around, but living there is harsh and not very welcoming (little assistance if you go unemployed e.g.). Go for the safest choice for now : let them make the choice later.
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Why is this here? How is any of this related to what Slashdot is supposed to be about? I'm usually pretty lax about what's posted on Slashdot, but this question should be posted on a forum somewhere else, not on a news site for "nerds".
How urgent is it?
Are your children approaching 18 yet? If not, wait until closer to that time and then discuss the pros and cons with them. Let them decide for themselves whether it means anything to them.
How much effort is it to do so? If it's minimal and the cost is relatively insignificant, then why not?
However if it's going to be costly and take hundreds of hours of your time, you need to decide if you, or they will live in the US at some point. If not, then you need to decide if it's really worth it.
It isn't doing you any good, and your kids will never have it.
Good for them.
I'm a good cook. I'm a fantastic eater. - Steven Brust
They also receive the gift of being obligated to pay US taxes. They will love you for that.
No brainer. Earmark $2,300 for them now, set it aside, and when they're legal age they can decide if they want to file the paperwork to renounce their citizenship. Then when they're older they have a choice that most people never get a chance to have, at least not so easily.
No, the US is a falling empire and its only going to get worse. If they really want to they can apply for citizenship later. Its kind of like circumcision: parent making life altering decision on the child's behalf when really the child could make the decision for himself when he is older.
Dual citizenship trumps tax hassles. Unless the plan is for your children to inherit some serious wealth (stock, real estate, cash, etc), filing U.S. tax returns is a pain in the ass but shouldn't be a factor.
That said, I take anyone who renounces their citizenship with a LOT of salt. From your own link:
'Jonathan Tepper is a founder of Variant Perception, a macroeconomic research company, and co-author of “Endgame: The End of the Debt SuperCycle and How It Changes Everything.”'
There are a LOT of reasons why the number of people applying for U.S. citizenship dwarf those who are renouncing U.S. citizenship.
No US tax is not something simple. Here in Switzerland, a U.S. citizenship can be a real burden. I know personally at least 2 ex US citizen who gave up the citizenship just because they were tired of the complex situation they were facing.
If you want a cheap way to get legal insurance in Belgium, look up ARAG. You can also get it in the US but the difference is that you don't need a company to sponsor you to get it in Belgium. Very reasonable prices too.
...did this article past the screening?
What's next, cooking recipes?
My wife is a US citizen by birth but left before her first birthday. She makes under the basic personal amount in income in Canada (under ~$8000CDN/year) and does not have to pay any canadian or US income tax because of her low income. We do though have to pay THOUSANDS of dollars every year to have our taxes done by an accountant familiar with BOTH countries tax systems.
Don't. There is no benefit to US Citizenship for a person who is a citizen of any western country not living in the US, and a whole lot of (EXPENSIVE) hassle that it causes. If they want to live in the US it prevents the need for a green card, but other than that, there is no benefit for any person from Canada, Australia, NZ, South Korea, Japan, Taiwan, Britain, France, Germany or the Nordic countries, etc. It may make sense in countries with weaker rule of law than the US if you think they may need diplomatic protection.
>there are tax issues but they are pretty minor
You're kidding. Have you actually experienced them? The tax issues are mindboggling in their complexity because the US law is written for US institutions and concepts. Trying to work out how arrangements in any of 160 other countries with their own laws and institutions translate into American concepts is a minefield. Something that is simple in your country of residence becomes impossible in another. Accountants who are familar with both local and US tax law don't come cheap so many people spend thousands of dollars a year trying to get it right; all to pay zero tax because there is rarely any tax to be paid. But if you get it wrong the penalties are punitive, all because the US views citizens who have the temerity to live overseas as unpatriotic tax dodgers.
And the benefits? What exactly would those US consulate services be that are so valuable? I can't think of any.
In the last few years the US has been cracking down on Americans living abroad, making sure they pay their taxes. Unfortunately here in Canada, there have been quite a few people who've only discovered through this process that they're American citizens. In many cases, due to various complications, they had no idea, and they've been presented with large tax bills. Apparently in this situation they can't simply revoke their citizenship: they have to pay their due taxes first, then revoke, and in many cases this can be in the tens of thousands of dollars.
If your kids are culturally European, and you think they'll spend the rest of their lives in Europe, it's probably an easy choice to not bother, but if you still have strong ties to the states, or the kids intend to pursue careers that may allow them to live internationally, then it's definitely worth considering.
It costs a MINIMUM of $2300. It typically costs $10 to $20 thousand when you add up all the other fees and back taxes and similar.
If you don't sign before the child reaches 18, the child is not considered an American citizen.
So I read this as meaning you have 18 years for such a decision to be made? In that case, don't do it now, but let them make their own minds up when they're (hopefully) intelligent teenagers who can understand the implications and how they might want to live their adult lives (such as if this might include moving to the US). Unless you plan on returning to the US or splitting up with the mother and want custody, there are zero benefits for them to be US citizens now so either let them decide or make the decision at a time when it makes sense.
And additionally, if the benefits of american citizenship for your kids aren't obvious to you, maybe you shouldn't since you don't value your own.
My understanding is that your marital status does not matter. All that matters is your citizenship. I recommend contacting your local embassy and setting up a talk with a consular officer or somebody in the know. They will provide all necessary information.
My situation is similar. My wife is German and I am an American living abroad in Germany. The US passport is extremely useful to have because it allows you to enter many countries without a visa. While the EU passport also has many visa waiver countries, the combined passports represent a formidible combination. Also, if your children ever intend on having a job in the US one day, you'll spare them the trouble of the visa lottery. There are a few caveats to be aware of. US citizens are required to pay US taxes on all earned income (regardless of country of residence). However most countries have agreements in place to prevent double taxing. Income as of this year that is over approximately $100,000 will be double taxed. Also, you don't need to make this decision immediately. You can wait all the way up until their 18th birthday to go to the embassy to get the Report of Birth Abroad (which functions as their US birth certificate). So, no rush.
Finally, if this is something you do want to do, be prepared to prove that you spent at least 5 years before your 18th birthday in the USA. Bank statements, report cards from school, yearbook pictures, ACT/SAT tests, etc. all count. The years don't have to be consecutive. If anybody else is planning on living and having kids abroad, it might be a good idea to plan ahead and save some of those old report cards.
While working in Canada I had a boss who was a US citizen, but he had been born in Canada to US married parents. He had the tax id for his parents to claim him as a dependent till 18. But he did not have a SSN number. He refused to work in the states because he didn't want to get a SSN number and thus have to pay taxes for the rest of his life, but he was still a US citizen.
I have no clue if that was legal or not. And I have no idea if this matches your circumstances, but it may be something you want to look into. See if they will be forced to pay taxes even if they don't have an SSN number just the tax id (which is different for children, or so I've been told).
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No, herpes isn't supposed to be transmitted to children.
I have a very close friend who is in immigration hell because of a situation like this. just file the report of birth abroad and get it over with, if they don't want it when they are an adult, they can renounce it. In her situation, life didn't go as expected and her unwed parents split a few years down the line. She ended up moving to the US with her mothers new US national husband. She only speaks English and has no memories of her life in Europe. She has been trying to straighten this out for the past few years but it looks like she will have to be naturalized. You never know what the future holds, not filing the report of birth abroad irrevocably limits your child's future options and is incredibly presumptive of their and your futures.
Tax issues pretty minor? I take it you are not a dual citizen living outside the US. It is a MASSIVE expense annually, even if you have a very low income.
Consular assistance? Better than Sweden? Not worth the tax hassles.
I would disagree that the tax issues are pretty minor. The U.S. says it can tax all your income forever. Because of CISPA it is becoming extremely difficult for U.S. citizens to have bank accounts outside of the U.S. and the value of a U.S. passport over an EU passport is dubious. The largest reason I can see for obtaining U.S. citizenship would be if you were planning on moving with them back to the U.S. or if they were likely to seek employment in the U.S. in the future.
Yes. They don't lose anything by becoming citizens (there are tax issues but they are pretty minor), and being a US citizen has a lot of advantages, like the support of US consulate services.
I'm a dual citizen (born American, obtained British citizenship while I lived there), and while my default position would be "you should grant them US citizenship as that opens up more options to them if they ever want to live in the US" (and despite the many issues, there are still good reasons to want to live here for many people), it should be said that the tax bullshit really is onerous, and renunciation would be expensive. It is like the US congress has built a financial Berlin wall around the country ... sure, you're free to leave, if you can pay up (and pay for expensive tax preparers who specialize in filing US taxes for expats, as the forms are by no means easy), but good luck ever getting out from under our thumb.
It's not an easy question to answer, and as someone else suggested, I would involve your 16 or 17-year old child in the decision beforehand, with good financial and legal advice on the implications pro and con. Weighing the option of living here vs. the never-ending IRS headaches of living abroad--that's a tough one.
The Future of Human Evolution: Autonomy
Is that still a thing?
If they want to live in the US, it makes sense for them to become US citizens. If you're sure they don't want to live in the US, it makes sense for them not to become US citizens.
It really depends on whether you have more confidence in Europe or in the US in the long run. (Personally, despite all the things going wrong in the US, Europe is a basket case, but your views may differ.)
Do you and your family plan on returning to the U.S. to live here?
If so, then getting them citizenship may be a good idea.
Otherwise, it sounds like it's more trouble than its worth.
Go on, citizen, stamp the vote card. R or D, your choice.
The first year or two in any given country is generally pretty difficult to figure out how US taxes work with them. Once that's done it doesn't become an issue after that. As for US consular services, one gets all the advantages one gets from having another country as backup when something is going wrong. Unrest in a country you are staying in and people need to be evacuated? The US has done that many times for its citizens in the past. It has helped other countries evacuate their citizens as well, but they generally have given priority to US citizens. Have legal trouble in another country? Having access to people from the embassy of the country with the big military helps. US citizens are in many places treated better as a result.
Ask not what USA can do for you, but what you can do for the USA.
If this doesn't apply until they're eighteen, why is this a decision that you need to make for them? Eighteen (or seventeen and N days) is old enough to make a choice for themselves. Like tattoos, piercings, and circumcision, this is a permanent decision that should not even be available to you as their parent. It is a choice that only they can make.
As for what they should choose... Most people seem to be saying no, and with good reasons, but I'd like to point out that traveling to the US, and particularly working in the US, isn't trivially simple for Europeans, especially if you value your privacy. The more burdensome aspects of crossing the border that were put in place after 9/11 aren't inflicted on US citizens, like the pictures and the fingerprinting.
No taxes ever again!
do not in any way Americanize them. Your youth is indoctrinated, ignorant, and aggressive, and it's symptomatic of your culture and society. There is no other country that produces so many hot-headed little shit-heads as the United States, and you should effort to not have your kids risk becoming one of them.
You know the one .. Citizenship, cultural, born, by heritage, by land, by water, ..
HELL YEAH!
I know the US just want their citizens to have one citizenship so I don't know how that work but I wish I had one.
Sweden used to be one of the most free, safe, rich, equal and in general bloody awesome except dark in the winters country of the world.
The problem though is that the self-denial/-hate is huge, socialism is still pretty relevant and I guess the immigrants may ask for more of it especially since inequality has gone up by changes in tax and massive immigration.
We have the European limits to freedom of speech and we've got the socialist extremist view of stup.. supposedly enforced equality and social stigma and extremist shouting, censorship and threats (and soon likely violence, murder and death too) against people who don't buy into it.
The US I feel is more secure in it's cultural and fundamental values. It's large enough to say "fuck that" if someone comes with an idea they don't want to implement too.
Personally I'd rank freedom first I guess and standard of living second and democracy third or something such. I don't see how Sweden can guarantee or even try to implement freedom for me.
If I lived in the US I wouldn't worry about that.
The problem for me of course is that it would be much harder for me to become a US citizen (well, guess marriage possibly could work for me too), if I got rid of my Swedish citizenship to not be under stupid anti-freedom laws of Sweden I would of course no longer have full access to the pension system of Sweden and while I'm somewhat educated for somewhat non-important reasons I'm not skilled labor at the moment so I don't see how I would be very competitive in the US and hence I would possibly end up poorer.
Taxes are lower in the US though. And I guess it may not be the general opinion in the US but they are at least spent on:
1) Upholding the law & society.
2) Upholding the border.
and hence:
3) Guarantee the society of their citizens.
Sweden of course spend much of its money in public service and well-fare and maybe some people in the US wish their money went there rather than for bombs, fuel and gizmos. But on the other hand Sweden kinda fail at the two basic tasks as a state:
1) Uphold the law & society.
2) Uphold the borders.
In my view and hence it kinda suck.. Like totally.
UN declaration of human rights isn't a law. Sweden by far isn't the country who follow it the least .. I could accept it as a foundation for a global well-fare super-state but it's a fucking stupid idea for a country of 4.5 million workers to implement for the whole fucking world.
(Also come on, don't grant murderers asylum just because they don't want to go to prison.. Any sane country avoid criminals and the US even only want good citizens. And don't worry about deporting whatever trash commit acts of terror because "they are Swedes" or "they need care" or what will happen somewhere else or whatever. Be egoistic and care for your own country.)
Anyway. Yeah. If I didn't lost in economy / standard of living and was allowed to live and be part of the US I kinda feel I possibly would had wanted it by now. Just to be sure if nothing else.
How awful can the tax declaration be? Sure in Sweden I just sign it with my banking ID or send and SMS reply where I accept it as is ..
Old Sweden? That may have been a different story.
But Sweden isn't what it was and will definitely not be what it has been. So that's pretty irrelevant.
Of course it's much easier for me to move around in Europe and there's other places which may feel more at home eventually. But Sweden is still one of the more richer regions and relative at least my Nordic neighbors I kinda feel Sweden offer a bigger variation in the land and it's the bigger country with the bigger cities.. also have the bigger lakes.. So there's that. I don't
I couldn't disagree more. First, do not talk to lawyers. They will probably know even less than you on the subject, they will spew out stuff that you can learn yourself by devoting a few hours to research in the net, and they will be all too happy to keep your money for nothing. Second, US citizenship, when leaving abroad and having no plans to come back, is a liability, not an asset. You should yourself be careful, for the IRS has started looking closely into US citizens living abroad. In fact, if you have not been careful, the IRS might get in touch with you any day now.
US citizenship is great if you want to live in the US. Otherwise, it sucks to high heaven - unless your alternative citizenship is worse. Belgian citizenship within the EU is definitely incomparably better.
I've lived and breathed the US tax system as an immigrant to the US. I know just how hideously complex the citizenship-based US tax system is. I (and my family) live in NZ and I'm not a US citizen but my wife is, and my NZ-born daughter automatically inherited US citizenship from her. I plan on keeping my daughters US citizenship hidden from the world for her own benefit. Her birth is not registered with the US govt and she travels on a NZ passport. She technically has all the US tax and reporting obligations from birth with no choice in matter (on her part or my part). At great expense she is required to report annually her income, assets, trusts, and company directorships to the US govt. The US govt imposes fines for failing to do so accurately and they are draconian. She is required to pay taxes to the US beyond what she owes to the NZ govt. Thanks to the new FATCA regime imposed upon the world, banks in NZ are tying to detect her US citizenship so her details and financial info can shared with the NZ IRD who will then pass it on to the US IRS.
All this is and she is barely 2 years old.
If you are CERTAIN she will be living in the US in the future then sign her up for citizenship. And leave it to the last minute so she can give her informed consent when she is most able to give it. But US citizenship is more of a burden than a blessing so she is generally better off without it.
You did say you can fill in the paperwork up to the point they are 18. Why not wait until teen years when they can articulate an opinion on the topic? Whatever they decide, they will appreciate being given the choice.
If you fail to register for the draft, you are ineligible for any sort of educational federal financial aid (should you choose to take advantage of it), and you will have great difficulty ever obtaining federal employment in many different agencies (if that's something you'd like to do.)
Once you renounce citizenship, I don't think the united states will let you back in, I'm not entirely sure but I believe that is the case.
So many details to remember, so irrelevant to my life as well as technology news. Fuck off
1. You have until they are 18 to sign the affidavit, correct? Why not when they turn 16, say, "here are the facts; you have one year to decide; on your 17th birthday I will either sign the paperwork and we'll go to get your registered as a US citizen, or we'll forget about it."
2. War. We have been experiencing an unusually long period of broad peace. It may be about to end --- there are certainly clouds on the horizon. If you were forced to leave your current location, where could you go as a family to semi-permanently avoid the risks of involvement (ignoring, for the moment, risks associated with conscription)? My ancestors, who had a citizenship mix and location not unlike your family's, fled from Europe to Canada during WWII. I'm glad they did, as I'm alive because of it.
3. Capital gains abroad and moving money to the US. The IRS have become right bastards about these two issues. There are some serious financial implications if you have property abroad, or want to move large sums of money to the US, for example, to buy a house.
4. Working in the US. If your kids have a future in biotech (despite the fact that this is Slashdot, the future is in biotech, not computers), then the US is where it's happening and will be for at least a decade, maybe two. It's not so easy to get a job in the US if you aren't a citizen.
5. Dual citizenship. The US have become quite flexible about dual citizenship, despite previous history. There are significant advantages to being a US citizen (like the ability to travel to nearly any country in the world at the drop of a hat), and no downsides vis-a-vis diplomatic issues to having dual citizenship.
6. Sanctuary. A US citizen can walk into any US embassy and request sanctuary and evacuation. If the crapper is exploding, this can be a very good thing. There are lots of US embassies all over the world.
U.S. is ruled by sociopaths who murder for power and profit, and your children will have to support them with tax. Also, their assets can be frozen or seized by various jack booted agencies (DHS, IRS, etc.) in violation of Constitution at any time for no reason at all. They can be assassinated by presidential decree or imprisoned in Gitmo without trial or even anyone knowning.
Sounds like win-win-win all around to me, sign them up!
Dual passports is usually a win.
Not only are there some countries that won't like one or the other of your kids citizenships (solution: travel there on the other passport), some countries will give you a really hard time if you try to go there, but have a stamp from another country they don't like.
In addition, if you have a stamp from some countries, other countries won't let you work there. For example, it used to be that if you had an Israeli stamp in your passport, you were barred from Egyptian archeology.
Note that your kids need to do this before they are 18; after 18, they can be required to renounce U.S. citizenship to obtain alternate citizenship, and vice versa; a lot of children of Irish immigrants to the U.S. have found this out the hard way, for example, when they decided after age 18 to claim their Irish heritage, and use that to take advantage of opportunities to study in Europe, rather than going to a U.S. university.
Finally, they can always renounce later, if they become Internet billionaires, like Eduardo Saverin, who the U.S. effectively paid $700M to renounce his citizenship, although there's a 15% "exit tax", so if they go this route, they should do it *before*, rather than *after* the IPO - he'd have been another ~$300M richer if he'd done that and left the country before the actual IPO.
-1 on him for what, expressing his view?
Once you renounce citizenship, I don't think the united states will let you back in, I'm not entirely sure but I believe that is the case.
It's like prison, that way. You have to commit the crime again and be re-convicted, to be admitted back to the circle of convicts.
"Flyin' in just a sweet place,
Never been known to fail..."
Plenty time to tell them, say around 14, remind at 16, make a decision at 17.
Personally I would've loved the dual citizenship (I only have one, boo!) but not at any price, and although self-styled land of the free, home of the brave, the price is rather onerous for American citizenship*, especially when you're not living there. Of course, the kids may not care about privacy, snooping, TSA thuggery, that sort of thing, but I do, and so I don't ever plan on going to the US again for any reason before the DHS and TSA have ceased to be, which I don't expect to be in my lifetime.
Then again, if the kids do plan on traveling to the US regularly, like for business, then perhaps the yearly tax return hassle and even the taxes on things that the US has absolutely nothing to do with but levies anyway is worth the averting the risk of getting kicked out and put on no-fly-lists and whatnot else, as citizens cannot be barred from entry. AIUI anyway, but IANAL so consult one if this might be an issue.
* About on par, if for different reasons, with, say, Moroccan or Turkish citizenship. Though US citizenship you can actually get out of.
Leaving the tax on a side. Everybody wants to be from U.S.A and everybody hates U.S.A. They are Belgians, they can't go around the globe without many troubles and they will be less hated than the Americans.
They may not owe US taxes, but they will probably have to file paperwork every year declaring such. Failure to file the paperwork can result in large fines, which are a problem if they ever decide to travel to the US.
This is simple - tell your children the pros and cons and let them make their own decisions. At age 17 they can choose which way to go, it is really not upto you to decide their futures beyond this point.
being a US citizen has a lot of advantages, like the support of US consulate services
And the disadvantages if they travel to hostile places, like being taken hostage and shot, just because you're American.
Not ever obtaining an SSN does not magically exempt you from taxation. The laws regarding citizens leaving abroad universally refer to citizens, not "citizens with an SSN".
The ITIN is only supposed to be obtained by resident or non-resident aliens who cannot obtain an SSN; citizens are never eligible for one, so his parents would have had to lie on that paperwork.
FACTA is american legislation that require foreign banks - as long as they conduct business in the U.S. - to report on the holdings and income of all their american customers & accounts to the US. The international reaction has been a huge pain to expats- many banks flat out refuse to serve american citizens (see link below), and it has led to a rash of american expats simply laying down their american citizenship.
http://world.time.com/2013/12/20/swiss-banks-tell-american-expats-to-empty-their-accounts/
From my view (German, Green Card for ~20 years now), there is only minor benefit to becoming a U.S. citizen, and many extremely large downsides; It simply doesn't make sense. The american higher education system is grossly overpriced, and all innovations in that field are globally available via the web and streaming video. The healthcare system is similarly top-loaded, and american salaries are only so high here because basic life services are ridiculously expensive.
Listen: If there's a reasonable chance that they're going to _live_ in the U.S. (which I advise against) then they can make that choice themselves once they're of age. Right now you're going to load your kids with far more problems than benefits if you make this decision for them.
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>> there are tax issues but they are pretty minor
>
> You're kidding. Have you actually experienced them?
I'm sure the author of the article is intimately familiar with the tax issues, being an american ex-pat himself. So on that issue he can make an informed decision.
As for the benefits of being a US citizen? I dunno, but a lot of rich people think it is valuable enough that "birth tourism" is a thing.
I'm a US citizen living abroad with a dual-citizen son. I can tell you that there are advantages and disadvantages. The benefits are that they can travel freely to the US and live and work in the US without having to obtain a green card. Also they can travel on either of their pasports largely depending on which country they travel to and they will qualify to receive assistance from any US consulate or embassy when overseas. They will be legally entitled to vote in any federal elections in the US when they turn 18, although if they have never actually lived in the US in practice they can't because no state will allow them to register to vote in that particular state.
The disadvantages are that when they start working they will always have to file a tax return in the US, regardless of where they actually live. For the most part they will receive an exemption for US taxes for any income they receive while working overseas with the exception of self-employment income, if they are legally self-employed then they will have to pay self-employment tax in the US in addition to any tax they pay overseas (some, but not all foreign countries have a self-employment double-tax agreement with the US, though which mitigates this). For me to avoid this tax I had to form a foreign corporation and work for that corporation so I'm not legally self-employed.
Another disadvantage is that they will be required to register for the US selective service when they turn 18 (the draft). There has not actually been a draft since the Vietnam war, though, so this is not likely to become an issue, but it is certainly something to consider.
As stated by the parent they can always renounce citizenship later and avoid the tax and selective service issues, but this is expensive (about $2500USD).
Also speaking of expense, having to file two tax returns means additional accountants fees and additional paperwork, especially if the country you live in has a different tax year than the US (which is very common). Having to maintain two passports is another extra cost as well, but not very expensive when you spread the fees out over the life of the passport.
All of the above said, I made an informed decision to register my own son as a US citizen and I do agree that the benefits outweigh the down sides, but it's certainly not a "nothing to loose" situation, there are downsides and it pays to make an informed decision with full knowledge of them.
Windows is a bonfire, Linux is the sun. Linux only looks smaller if you lack perspective.
They can easily travel to the US on a belgian passport too. Belgians don't require a visa to go to the US.
So that's one point for your "cons".
For all the hate the US gets on Slashdot, it's still the country of record. It's hitting the big time. Top finance jobs are centered in the US. Top technology jobs are centered in the US. The movie and TV industries are largest in the US. 9 of the world's 10 best universities are in the US. Sure, such jobs are available in Nigeria, but the best most and the most talented tend to work in the US, and you're limiting your kid's future by not allowing it.
I know so, so, so many Chinese people (both PRC and Taiwan, Malaysia, etc.) killing themselves to get their kids in the US because it has the best school and the top jobs. Not to mention, my wife's parents, several of my best friend's parents, etc. NOT doing it, when it would be easy to fill out paperwork, just seems like irresponsible parenting.
Slashdot: providing anti-social weirdos a soapbox, since 1997.
You immediately list the cons without a single pro. Isn't that telling enough?
There was a time I started pursuing legalization in China - I registered as a 'resident' of Hong Kong, as I loved it there, and I could also continue working there if I found opportunities without the worry of the Chinese Government which can be quite abusive at times.
Now clearly the situation is different, but first you don't mention your children's age. My advice is - if they can talk - try to find a way to explain to them what you are considering and LET THEM DECIDE. IF POSSIBLE wait until they reach an age where they are ready for it. This shouldn't be just your decision alone, as this effects their adult life pretty tremendously, doesn't it?
Now if you have a pressing demand that makes this time a make it or break it. Then ask yourself the simple question: Do the pros outweigh the cons? Personally, I am of the opinion that dual citizenship can be both a burden as well as a benefit, but like you said - taxation is a pain.
Keep in mind they are only responsible for filing for taxes if the income's in the United States and their residency is 50% or more in the United States. AND YES they DO keep tabs on that kinda stuff.
My advice is. Let your kids make the choices, individually. you have a couple children. What works for one may not work for the other. You might actually see them making different choices. But don't list only the cons to them
thousands of dollars to do taxes when you're low income seems like your tax guy is ripping you off. Write a number less than $8750 on the 1040-EZ, and don't plan on ever collecting social security. Done.
Slightly more complicated paperwork, but easy to do yourself is to write it up as Foreign Earned Income. This is the proper way to handle this situation. You get to ignore the first $100,800, you won't be taxed on that. Live like a poor person and you won't need to pay the US anything on your regular income.
She should be filing seperately in the US, don't file jointly. Your income will totally cock things up.
Some tricks if you do contracts for hire, make sure there is an exception that you cannot be paid your cash bonuses, allowances, etc if you are living in the United States. It side steps some of the little hooks the IRS tries to use to get you. (IRS website spells this out pretty clearly)
Selling a home can make things more complicated for her, but still quite possible to avoid paying anything.
Bureaucracy is part of life. Teenagers are stupid.
Make them citizens and let them pay the 2300 bucks with their money when they come of age to pay for it.
I'd never eliminate choice. You don't know what lies ahead in the next 15 years or so.
Take a look at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/... . My spouse is American, though we're lived in Canada for 16 years and are raising our kids here. The new tax implications are a serious issue. I know 1 person who has renounced their U.S. citizenship due to the new tax implications, and I'd love for my spouse to do the same to simplify our tax situation and prevent the U.S. from making a grab at our Canadian retirement savings.
Personally, I'm not hurrying to register our children with the U.S. to secure U.S. citizenship.
Yes, there are drawbacks (especially the taxes ones) but I think the wave of citizenship renunciations going on are a sign that the strange treatment of non-residents will change in the next couple of years. FATCA is the best thing to happen to US taxpayers abroad in a long time.
I think the benefits outweigh the costs. If they don't get it before their 18th birthday, it will be much harder. They can always renounce it later, though.
Having traveled a lot, having a US passport is very beneficial for ease of passage across borders and protection when abroad. EU passports are almost at the same level though.
Take a look at this article: http://www.economist.com/node/... It has some good information about it.
Good luck!
Definitely get them their passport!
I have done this for my two children.
It is easy to become wrapped up in the "European view of America" which is generally unrepresentative of the country.
What you are doing is granting your children access to an economic area of almost a billion people. You are granting them unprecedented access to cultural diversity. You are granting them the ability to trivially move continents should the political situation degrade on either side of the Atlantic. Yes - do it. The cost to give up the US passport is trivial if ever need be.
and if it really does become an issue they can renounce citizenship later.
Are you aware there is a fee of somewhere around $10,000 USD to renounce your citizenship, plus any back taxes and penalties you may owe? Also, you are required to file U.S. tax returns even if you make ZERO income if you have any money at all in a non-U.S. bank account. The U.S. is one of the few countries that requires you to file tax returns in that case even if you don't owe any taxes. And they have been enforcing this rule: a lot of Canadians found themselves owing huge amounts of money in penalties to the IRS for failing to file these returns even though they didn't owe any U.S. taxes, and many of these people didn't consider themselves to be U.S. citizens and weren't even aware that the U.S. considered them to be citizens till they got their tax bill.
If I can be modded down for being a troll, can I be modded up for being an orc, or a balrog?
Only if you have a Social Security Number - which isn't mandatory. You don't have to have it and you can't file without it. Don't get it -- problem solved.
If you can keep your kids free of the War Machine, then do so.
-jcr
The only title of honor that a tyrant can grant is "Enemy of the State."
...unless they want to live in the US. Being an American citizen abroad is, as you know, a bureaucratic nightmare that gets worse every year. Don't do it unless you have a very good reason.
Yes, if they (or you) were to live and work in the US in the future. I have friends and relatives in just this situation. They worked outside the US, met someone, lived there for a really long time, lost their job and moved back to the US. If the children had not been US citizens this would have been a lot more difficult.
No, for all other cases. It's just not worth the tax nightmare.
You don't have to file taxes in the U.S. if you don't get a tax ID number or SSN. Another commenter stated that getting an SSN is not required initially.
If the kids ever decide they want to move to the U.S. for school, work, or any other reason, they'll have a much easier time if they are citizens. I would say, talk to a lawyer first, but definitely consider it.
I became a US citizen in my teens and left when I was in my 20s. FACTA has made banking next to impossible. I'm legitimately thinking of ditching it at this point but I can't afford the fees (yes it costs money to renounce your citizenship). FACTA only screws over the low wage earning US citizens abroad, it does nothing but turn us into criminals while those it was meant to catch (rich tax evaders) are able to pay accountants and lawyers to navigate the laws both at home and abroad.
I've never filed taxes in the US, upon discovering that I had to submit a return I emailed the IRS and explained my situation. Their response was to threaten me with hundreds of thousands in fines for not complying AND not answering my question (which was "What exchange rate do I use when filing? Yearly average? Year end?'). Honestly, fuck the United States government.
If you have until they're 18, wait until they're old enough to decide for themselves, and to make their plans. Then you can find out which pros and cons apply to them (eg working/studying in the US vs just paying taxes).
Don't waste your vote! Vote for whoever you want, unless you live in a swing state it won't matter anyways
Tax on their world income. Forever. Even if they never ever set foot in the US. Make them Canadian instead. Almost all of the benefits (Canadian passport gets you into almost anywhere without a visa, including the US) but Canadian tax law is sensible - you need to reside in Canada 183 days out of the year in order to be liable for tax.
Seven puppies were harmed during the making of this post.
A massive expense? When probably 99% of the people filing owe no taxes? If you have a regular salaried job, it takes approximately 30 minutes, as long as you're not a drooling moron, to fill in a 1040, a 2555, and an 1116 (Income statement, declaration of foreign income, and foreign income tax credit).
If you're in "the 99%" - and probability says you are - then you pay zero taxes to the American government each year, you simply have to spend 30-60 minutes filling out a form and mailing it. If you own a 40% stake in Facebook, yeah, you get hit with taxes. If you're working for even relatively good wages, chances are you won't owe a thing unless the foreign country you're in has REMARKABLY low tax rates - again, probability says that in Europe, you're not.
So yes, for the vast majority of people, the tax issues are very minor - a yearly hassle that doesn't even begin until after the kid gets a job paying more than ~9500 a year... and in return, you get all the benefits of an American citizenship. Which for all the poo-pooing being done here, let's be honest: nobody's lining up to illegally cross the border into Somalia because of all the great benefits they'll get there.
Lack of a Social Security Number in no way makes it legal for you not to file taxes. It only makes it so you are harder to track.
The main "pro" of US citizenship for most Europeans is ease of US employment. Since your son/daughter are far away from that, you can pretty much wait until nearer to 18yo to decide (you didn't say how far that was away even though you said the clock is ticking) when you will have a better idea of what they might want to do in that regard... As you say, the rest of the stuff is pretty easy even for European citizens...
Since you say you kept your US citizenship, you essentially have ensnared yourself in the "U.S. tax bureaucracy, which would require them to file U.S. tax returns for life even if they never set foot in the U.S." Depending on how much money *you* have, you may have already either complicated their life, or not (given the FBAR, un-earned income, trusts and foreign gift issues) regardless of their US citizenship status. If their tax status is likely to be clouded forever because of intermingling with *your* money, it might actually better for *you* to renounce, rather than them to become US citizens (as a proud US citizen, I say that sadly)...
I know many people that have filed US taxes as citizens abroad, but most of them don't have much money so as you say, the main expense is the tax attorney. The bigger problem is FBAR, but if you have solved that for yourself because of *your* money, it is probably no big deal for your kids (unless they become fabulously wealthy or move to a country with no US-reciprocal tax treaty)...
Fortunately you seem to have local (belgian) citizenship. I know a US citizen who didn't have local citizenship, had kids with a local, never bothered to get US citizenship for the kids, things went south, and was basically S.O.L. in the subsequent child custody legal situation...
The tax issue is not simple and is expensive to have handled properly, I am currently in the process of dealing with it.
I was born in the US and my parents moved to Canada before my first birthday, the cost of doing all the taxes is not worth it at all. I often wish my parents had moved to Canad before I was born so that I am not saddled with expensive accounting bills every year.
To get caught up on the pointless tax paper work to the US,( I was unaware I was required to submit paperwork since I have never lived in the US since leaving at the ripe old age of 9 months old,) I have had to do 6 years worth of paperwork, to the tune of $2000.00, plus I have had to make a trip to the US because of course I didn't have a social security number and I live on an Island so add another $1000.00 to that bill and this was just to get me up to date for 2013.
It is the most pointless waste of my money and their money. I don't make even close to enough money to be taxed by the Americans and yet each and every year I will be required to pay dearly to an accountant to make sure that I am up to date with my untaxible income, then the American government is going to pay their staff to review my untaxible income paperwork using US tax payer money to do it. If you think I am being over reactive by having an accountant do it instead of handling it myself just read the nigthmare my parents went through.
My parents had their Canadian accountant try to do the American taxes, that turned into a living nightmare for them, and by the time they got an accountant trained in the American tax system to work on fixing what the other account did wrong, the bills from IRS were arriving monthly and had accumulated to over $25,000.00 in about 8 months time and they were being threatened with losing their home, they are senior citizens, this caused them no end of stress every time another notice arrived from the IRS. They did eventually get it sorted out but the accounting cost to remedy the mistake was about $3000.00+ and they didn't owe anything to the IRS, it was a minor mistake that turned into a huge mess.
Don't put your kids through it.
The Tax implications are NOT minor. If you make +$90k per year.
Both I (a non-US citizen), and my Sister (a dual US Citizen) make +100K. My sister is FAR smarter than I am (she's a very well respected academic) she still needs to pay an accountant nearly $500 to do her US taxes (which come to $0 owed, as she doesn't work in the US) because they are so insanely complex.
I'd recommend letting your kids decide if they want US citizenship when they grow up.
You're not required to file tax returns if you fall below a certain limit or otherwise don't owe taxes. Of course, if you don't file and do owe taxes, you get punished. (And if you don't file, you can still be audited, which is fun if it turns out the IRS owes you six years of refunds)
Exactly this. I'm a US citizen who worked for a few years in Canada. Don't listen to OP - the tax issues are monumentally major.
Most countries tax based on residency. You earned money in your country of citizenship, you pay taxes there. You earned money in another country, you work out the taxes over there. Your native country doesn't get involved. This is why Canadians working in the U.S. for part of the year have to be able to document the number of days they stayed there. If they're in the U.S. for more than 183 days, they're considered a U.S. resident and don't owe Canadian taxes.
The U.S. taxes based on residency and citizenship. You earn money anywhere in the world, the IRS expects you to pay U.S. taxes on it if you're a citizen. If your kids become U.S. citizens, ignore the U.S. tax filing obligations for 20 years because they're living in Sweden or wherever, then when they're in their 30s and married and have kids they decide to visit the U.S., the moment they try to step foot into the U.S. the IRS will nail them for back taxes on everything they earned for the last 20 years. (Ok, there's probably a statute of limitations, but you get the idea.)
A lot of Americans living abroad work their butt off trying to renounce their U.S. citizenship just so they don't have to deal with this tax hassle. Do not subject your kids to it unless they intend to live in the U.S. (Some U.S. states do the same thing. California is notorious for it. If you were living in California prior to taking a job in the U.K., California still considers you a "resident" since you didn't move to another U.S. state, and expects you to pay California taxes on everything you earned in the U.K. Even California kids who go to college out of state and don't formally establish their residency in that state have gotten nailed for it when they work a part-time job while at school.)
The U.S. has tax treaties with most developed nations, where taxes paid in those countries on earned income (i.e. wages) can be applied as credit to taxes the IRS says you owe. Since most countries have a higher tax rate than the U.S. Federal taxes (U.S. Federal + State ends up being about the same), this usually means you won't owe the IRS any taxes on earned income. But they still expect you to file a tax return every year. And if you've got unearned income (e.g. interest on a savings account, stocks), you're probably gonna end up double-taxed on that (in both your country of residence, and by the U.S.).
Unless your kids are going to live in the U.S., don't do it.
If the kids can also keep their EU citizenship, it is worth it. I don't think there are any tax implications, maybe there are implications if you are a US citizen earning money overseas.
I am a US citizen by birth. A couple years ago I applied for and was granted irish citizenship cuz they have this program where if your grandparents are from Ireland then you can get citizenship. This way I got an EU passport, and if shit hits the fan in US I can go anywhere in Europe and get a job.
No. Never.
I'm an Australian who has lived in a few countries and currently live in the US on a visa. I'd like to get my greencard, BUT NEVER CITIZENSHIP. The tax headache alone is NOT WORTH IT.
If the IRS ever changes its laws on citizens, then maybe, but that is not currently the case.
If you have a greencard you have to file taxes regardless of whether you live in the US or not. As long as the green card is valid the IRS wants their paperwork.
You have no idea about the tax....it is an endless NIGHTMARE! I am an American who lives in Germany. My wife is German and we have two kids which I blindly signed up to be Americans before really educating myself. If had to do it over again I would refrain from American-ing the kid until they were old enough to decide for themselves what they want.
With all of the current US tax and banking regulations which seem to get worse all the time, being an American is a real pain in the ass. Not only do you have to deal with the endless tax paperwork and EXTREMELY invasive probes into any foreign assets, but you also are straddled with the fact that because of all of the added US regulatory crap...it makes simple banking and job hunting difficult. Most financial institutions don't want to deal with the added paperwork of dealing with an American, crypto currency exchanges are forbidden, and jobs become much more limited due to the financial burden that a company will be straddled with if they hire an American.
The banking issue is particulary painful as the US has basically isolated itself from the rest of the world. Just getting at my own US $ is an ever changing, never ending challenge.
Every year at tax time I tempted to turn in my passport at the nearest US consulate.
If your children are small and the deadline to sign the affidavit of support isn't until they're 18, as you said, wouldn't it make the most sense to simply put off the decision until:
A) They're nearing the age of 18, can weigh the pros and cons themselves, and can indicate their desire to you
B) There's an unanticipated but immediate use for it (e.g. war or natural disaster strikes Europe)
C) The situation changes such that the decision becomes clearer one way or the other (e.g. tax burden lessens, becomes harder for foreigners to work in America, etc.)
More or less, I don't see the urgency in making this decision now, rather than in a decade, and this sounds like the sort of decision that could very easily make itself for you if you simply give it enough time.
Bull. The US tax laws change all of the time. In the last couple of years, they have become even more complex with more forms. The IRS is legally obligated to know everything about what you own, what accounts you have, everything. The US has lost many citizens in the last couple of years just for this reason.
and if it really does become an issue they can renounce citizenship later.
Are you aware there is a fee of somewhere around $10,000 USD to renounce your citizenship, plus any back taxes and penalties you may owe? Also, you are required to file U.S. tax returns even if you make ZERO income if you have any money at all in a non-U.S. bank account. The U.S. is one of the few countries that requires you to file tax returns in that case even if you don't owe any taxes. And they have been enforcing this rule: a lot of Canadians found themselves owing huge amounts of money in penalties to the IRS for failing to file these returns even though they didn't owe any U.S. taxes, and many of these people didn't consider themselves to be U.S. citizens and weren't even aware that the U.S. considered them to be citizens till they got their tax bill.
Interesting. So theoretically, the whole world would be better off filing US tax returns just in case the US considers them citizens, and just in case the US goes the next step and starts billing them for not filing a tax return.
Wonder if any other countries have this policy? I could file tax returns for Bolivia, Tibet, Belgium, Samoa, Madagascar and Dubai just in case they also consider me a citizen.
What's worse, if I ever don't file one, having started, then they'd chase me.
We could bog down the world with paperwork; electronic and otherwise. Or has this already been done?
"The greatest lesson in life is to know that even fools are right sometimes" - Winston Churchill
I'd give my left *** to be a US citizen; Canadian... great grandfather was american, but grandfather died @ 40 before he could get his so 'my father' could not become one(hence me).
At the very least ask the kids and give them the option. IF they say no it's their regret, vs kids being pissed at you for limiting/crippling their future.
Maybe take a family vacation to see different America on the 17th year... In my case, I HATE the cold and have no legal option to live somewhere warm; Double earning potential through lower cost of living is also envied.
News for nerds? Nobody here has had sex or been married.
Technically, and IIRC, Americans abroad must continue to file income tax. You should be filing federal income tax 1040 forms each year. Do you? If you get American citizenship for your kids, they could become responsible for filing federal taxes when they start working, even if they never come back to the US, and if they never file and they do come back, they have owe a bunch of back taxes.
A lot of Americans who live abroad and never intend to return to the United States will renounce their citizenship in order to get out of the Federal Income Tax filing requirements. The procedure for renouncing your citizenship is described in 8 USC 1481(a)(6).
-=/\- Jizzbug -/\=-
You are required to file under all circumstances, although they may not care to come after you if you fall below the minimum threshold for owing tax... See the relevant U.S.C. sections, all citizens are required... If self-employed then you will always owe tax, even if you only made $500.
-=/\- Jizzbug -/\=-
what's to be gained by having US citizenship, when you both are living in europe?
I am born and raised (and living) in the US, but if I was not born here or already a citizen, I'm not sure I see any real benefit to being part of the US. my view has changed a lot over the last 20 years (world events and all), and so I'm not sure that being 'prisoner of uncle sam' (our version of POMMY, lol) yields a positive benefit anymore.
enjoy your life over there. in fact, I would not even travel here if you don't have to.
--
"It is now safe to switch off your computer."
US citizens residing in foreign countries are still required to pay US Federal Income Tax while abroad, even if they never return. I guess you're paying for the protections the local embassies could theoretically give you, if you don't expatriate and renounce your citizenship in accordance with 8 USC 1481(a)(6).
-=/\- Jizzbug -/\=-
> Yes. What do you lose? But talk to lawyer first.
That pretty much means very clearly NO. Kudos for being concise.
We were talking about laws today, me and coworker. Both we aren't lawyers or had a graduation in Law.
The general idea we talked about (pretty please feel free to lambaste our ignorance) is how we use (like continental Europe) "civil law" (that means "rules") while law coming from the British islands is the so called "common law". It was explained to me we have emphasis on people creating laws, while common law put the emphasis on Courts and how they decide what goes -- the summary even refers to court cases to illustrate the question -- and my point.
We don't act that way. To know what to do, we just research and find some law about it, usually identified by a number and a year when it became valid.
What is the difference? We need lawyers, too, but these guys have less chance to be "creative". That said, I'm not implying our system is better.
But for a divergent opinion, I don't think the "benefits outweigh the costs". I don't want to be American, nor Russian, nor Chinese, nor Japanese etc. All the most popular nations suck. A few are nice places for a son to grow. I'd say Belgium is great (despite the recent moves to break up the country). It is not your case, but for reference only I consider the Netherlands also very nice (but do get a sub, just in case). It's important to take neighbors into account. Please remember that some European countries have harsh laws. I have a friend who quit living in Germany, because his daughter -- born in Germany -- wouldn't be German, nor his grandsons. In that aspect, Americans are more liberal; again, I don't see any meaningful benefit in being American. For starters, the food suck.
Have also in mind the future; Europe might mean more freedom to travel through different cultures.
Good luck!
DISCLOSURE: I'm from a Latin American country.
I am American and have lived in multiple countries now and no intention of going back. I had to research this when my son was born. He has American and New Zealand passports and we've declined to get him a third one. There are several considerations to take into account, not least being taxation. Anyone who thinks "Taxes aren't a big deal" in the context of expat Americans does not know what they are talking about, or have enough money to make the issues go away.
Your kids are entitled to an American passport, whether you choose to get them one or not. This will get flagged if they want to apply for a ESTA (for we have no visa-free concept in the US, we just force people to get an electronic visa, like the Australians do) and will not be allowed to travel to the US on a non-American passport.
So, I personally chose to get my son a passport, but you can choose differently. Just understand that if you choose not to, you have to go to your local consulate and state that fact and get a letter to that effect before your kid is allowed into the US on his Belgian passport.
Tax issues aren't minor. As an American citizen you will have I pay taxes to the U.S. government even if you never work or live in the US if he tax rate is superior to the tax of the country you are living in depending of the country you live in and the amount of income you earn.
I do not think that there are many developed countries who require you to pay tax on income earned in a foreign country when you are as well living in a foreign country.
Don't you know it is now both immoral and criminal to think beyond the next quarterly report?
You don't have to file taxes in the U.S. if you don't get a tax ID number or SSN. Another commenter stated that getting an SSN is not required initially.
If the kids ever decide they want to move to the U.S. for school, work, or any other reason, they'll have a much easier time if they are citizens. I would say, talk to a lawyer first, but definitely consider it.
This.
Regardless of the technical tax requirements. There is little communication between the IRS, the State Dept, and Homeland Security. Get the US Passport for your kids. If they decide to never ever go to the USA, there's no harm. If they decide to take advantage of their US citizenship, they can consider the minor tax consequences then.
There are millions and millions of people that want to become US citizens but can't. I wouldn't deny them their birthright by neglecting to file before they become adults and denying them something that they may or may not cherish forever.
FYI, another requirement is that you (father) have resided in the US for 5 years (after you turned 14 years old).
The IRS thing is the biggest hassle. As for the draft, if they're abroad they can't be actually forced. (Legal ramifications, yes, but there is a reason there are so many stories of folks going to Canada during the Vietnam War period.)
In short, I think the downsides are relatively manageable. The upside is big, however.
By having multiple citizenships it broadens their potential work and living options down the road. They would have Swedish, EU (Belgian), and US citizenship—allowing them to basically work anywhere in Europe or the US without having to obtain a visa. This can be big.
Also, while getting a school visa is not the worst process, having done it (although it was US to UK), I can say it was easier for my friend who had dual German/US citizenship (and thus EU rights).
Getting US citizenship later would be more of a hassle, I would reckon, than even renouncing would be.
I think it's worth it. The flexibility of travel and living down the line will give your kids more options.
Good luck.
Some quick links I found covering the issue.
Americans Living Abroad Becoming Trapped by Citizenship Based Tax Rules
Mayor Of London Boris Johnson Announces He'll Renounce U.S. Citizenship
When American Expats Donâ(TM)t Want Their Kids to Have U.S. Citizenship
Meet the 'accidental American' with a big tax bill
PwC suggests a check to see if you're an 'accidental American'
âAccidentalâ(TM) Americans Still Owe Income Tax
Statute of Limitations is 10 years IF YOU FILE.
If you don't file: there is no limitation. They can collect for all earnings over the course of your entire life.
Citizens have a different limitation than the IRS. The IRS' limitation never expires if you don't file, but your limitation to collect from the IRS, should they owe you, expires in 3 years if you don't file. There is a potential loophole to this in the Codes, but the IRS privately interprets that loophole to apply to amended returns only (I tried using the loophole). As a kid I was dumb and ignorant, and I considered about 5 years of returns as a savings account I'd collect on later. Well, I lost all of those returns because of the 3-year limitation for citizens to collect from the IRS. And I'd have to sue the IRS in federal court and win to get them to honor the loophole exemption on all returns, not just amended returns.
-=/\- Jizzbug -/\=-
no, I agree with jeremiah.
we have failed. we are a failure. some may not see it, but we will implode sooner or later and then, all hell will break loose.
there is NO plan for sustainability, here. we keep spending on wars and hostility and yet we let 'home repairs' go undone. for decades, now, we have done this.
we are the country of 'dumbing down'; we have the worst healthcare system in the world; we let people go homeless if they lose their jobs and can't find a new one quickly enough; we have crime rates that are astronomical; we have half of the country thinking the world is a few thousand years old and that half also denies science whenver possible.
we are no shining example of what a good country is, anymore. our politics are a mess, our spies are ruining WORLD WIDE security for everyone and we are the main cause of this kind of escalation.
don't even get me started on the work environment here. very little maternity leave, no paternity leave, a recent push for no sick time or vacation time (they lump it all together) and we also have the shortest amount of vacation time compared to all the modern countries. our corporations work the workers to death and then dispose of them, IF you can even GET a job in the US (h1b, yes! born here, sorry.)
there are many good things about the US, don't get me wrong. but if you are not already 'stuck' here, I would certainly NOT entertain coming here, moving here, doing business here and certainly not becoming a citizen here!
(of course, I expect to be added to some watchlist given my comments here. and that's yet another reason to avoid the US. you can't trust the US anymore. we don't even follow our own laws uniformly. if you are rich, you have all you want; if you are not rich, then a 2nd set of laws will apply to you).
don't. just don't. we used to be great. maybe we will again in the future, but right now, its a disaster here.
--
"It is now safe to switch off your computer."
Like really? Who cares, this is a personal dilemma not tech news
UDL
I'm a US citizen living abroad with a dual-citizen son. I can tell you that there are advantages and disadvantages. The benefits are that they can travel freely to the US and live and work in the US without having to obtain a green card. Also they can travel on either of their pasports largely depending on which country they travel to and they will qualify to receive assistance from any US consulate or embassy when overseas. They will be legally entitled to vote in any federal elections in the US when they turn 18, although if they have never actually lived in the US in practice they can't because no state will allow them to register to vote in that particular state.
The disadvantages are that when they start working they will always have to file a tax return in the US, regardless of where they actually live. For the most part they will receive an exemption for US taxes for any income they receive while working overseas with the exception of self-employment income, if they are legally self-employed then they will have to pay self-employment tax in the US in addition to any tax they pay overseas (some, but not all foreign countries have a self-employment double-tax agreement with the US, though which mitigates this). For me to avoid this tax I had to form a foreign corporation and work for that corporation so I'm not legally self-employed.
Another disadvantage is that they will be required to register for the US selective service when they turn 18 (the draft). There has not actually been a draft since the Vietnam war, though, so this is not likely to become an issue, but it is certainly something to consider.
As stated by the parent they can always renounce citizenship later and avoid the tax and selective service issues, but this is expensive (about $2500USD).
Also speaking of expense, having to file two tax returns means additional accountants fees and additional paperwork, especially if the country you live in has a different tax year than the US (which is very common). Having to maintain two passports is another extra cost as well, but not very expensive when you spread the fees out over the life of the passport.
All of the above said, I made an informed decision to register my own son as a US citizen and I do agree that the benefits outweigh the down sides, but it's certainly not a "nothing to loose" situation, there are downsides and it pays to make an informed decision with full knowledge of them.
My wife is dual Peruvian/US citizen, and has passports from each country. Because traveling as a Peruvian generally means getting a visa beforehand her Peruvian passport remains unused. When we went to the college one of the first things that she did after getting her legal residency was to establish her legal residency in the town where we lived so that she could pay local tuition rather than the much higher out-of-town tuition or the obscenely expensive foreign student tuition. Working here in the US is also a royal pain, should your kids ever wish/need to do so, for a non-citizen.
BTW, I lived in Peru for three years, never filed to pay taxes during that time, and when I moved back to the US just filed them as "late" and paid a very minor fine. This was two decades ago though, so that might have changed.
"Think about how stupid the average person is. Now, realise that half of them are dumber than that." - George Carlin
Don't factor your son's draft registration into your decision-making. There is absolutely no will in Washington to reinstate the draft, and to do so after so many decades without it would be political suicide. And even if that changes somehow before he ages out of eligibility, a dual-citizen raised and living abroad wouldn't have much trouble getting a deferment (which goes double if we're at war with Belgium or Sweden).
http://alternatives.rzero.com/
I have experienced them, and unless you make over a certain (fairly large) amount, it's nothing. You report your foreign income, and then you have a massive deduction for it. I live overseas, and file US taxes every year. It takes about twenty minutes, and most of that is just clicking through TaxAct's constant attempts to upsell me to a bunch of stuff I don't need. The first year after I moved away sucked, but after that if it's difficult for you one of two things is true: (1) you're doing it wrong, or (2) you make so much money that you'd be paying people to do it for you anyway.
I'd recommend letting your kids decide if they want US citizenship when they grow up.
I think the fundamental problem being alluded to here is that there's a deadline for him to make them US citizens... and the deadline expires at the stroke of midnight on their 18th birthdays. So by definition, it's basically "now or never".
If he leaves it up to them until they grow up, they'll be in the same legal position as someone who's never had ties to the US at all. He can get them basically free expedited US citizenship by filing some forms now. Frankly, I'd say it's a dirt cheap investment he'd be crazy to NOT do right now.
As others have pointed out, even though the US appears determined to compete in the English-speaking world's mad race to see who can become "Oceania" first, it still has a de-facto global empire that would have made just about any past world leader (besides maybe Queen Victoria and Genghis Khan) jealous, and there are concrete, tangible benefits to being a citizen of the world's dominant empire.
If nothing else, the fact that they COULD -- with minimal paperwork -- live and work in the US as a matter of birthright might someday come in handy for them if they're looking for a job during an economic downturn (especially if they're still early in their careers and don't have a lot of experience). The fact is, sometimes logistics triumph over other factors in a company's hiring decisions.
This is completely false. There's a massive deduction for income earned overseas, so that you don't have to pay US taxes at all unless you make over a certain very large amount. I live overseas and make six figures (USD), and my taxes every year amount to entering the amount I earned, skipping to the overseas deduction, and entering the amount I earned again. I don't pay a dime of taxes in the USA. If you are doing that, you are doing it wrong. If your accountant is telling you that it's a lot of work, fire them and get an honest accountant.
How about asking them ? I'm not very big on nationalism but nationality can be conceived as a little more than paperwork.
Yes. They don't lose anything by becoming citizens (there are tax issues but they are pretty minor),
Good grief, you couldn't be more wrong !!!
I work for a major accounting firm and the tax issues are anything
but minor. IRS can and will seize accounts of US citizens both inside and outside the
US if it sees fit to do so. Income of a US citizen is subject to US tax regardless of
where the income was earned or where the US citizen lives. Also, many foreign banks
are refusing to do business with US citizens these days because IRS can and will make
things difficult for the banks. The banks take the position that it is more trouble than the
business is worth, and frankly I think the banks are correct.
To the person who posed the question :
I urge you to consult a tax professional so you can get a good grasp of the ramifications of
US citizenship. You will notice I have not mentioned the name of my firm and I have posted
as AC in order to keep things from seeming improper.
I hope you've been practicing a good Canadian or British accent, because I don't think terrorists really give a shit about your legal status anywhere. God help you if you think they do.
It's more than just tax paperwork. There are asset declaration forms to send to Treasury Dept. Failure to file these can result in prison sentences.
The situation is MUCH more complex than just having to do a 1040 like everyone else in the US. Furthermore, there are regulations the US gov. is enacting which affect how international wire transfers are handled by banks, which is forced upon any bank that has a branch in the US. These regs. can cause you to automatically loose "witholding" taxes on transfered amounts, and then have to go through an ordeal to get the money back if it isn't justified by your overall tax picture.
Finally, the US .gov will happily pass new laws that create new reporting obligations that they will do very little to warn people about. Ie., don't expect a highway billboard to warn you of new reporting obligations. So unless you are proactive about determining whether the legal landscape has changed, you may find yourself out of compliance with some new rules that almost no one knows about, where failure to comply entails possible prison sentences.
They are not nice people creating these rules. Conduct yourself under the US global empire accordingly, if you wish to stay out of trouble!
Note that some of these rules get sold to the public by capitalizing on the resentment toward the "1%." But then what actually happens is that it's the normal people who are most at risk of getting penalized since we don't have tax attorneys constantly monitoring the legal landscape, unlike rich people. So once again, if you cheer on the .gov when it claims it's going to "help" you by giving the shaft to "the rich," unless you are an IDIOT you should know damn well that if you go along with it you are being played for a fool, just as it's always been.
The US is doing quite well compared to Europe; Europe is imploding.
Unless you expect them to be able to live in the US, it's not worth it.
The main issues are tax related.
You and your child must every year, file US taxes with the IRS, even if you never intend to step foot in the country ever again.
All your income earned in Belgium, is taxable in the US, and tax forms must be filed annually.
Assuming you have more than 10,000 in financial assets (retirement accounts, bank accounts, investment accounst, etc), you must report all your bank accounts to the IRS annually (FINRA) reporting AND you must now report all your balances, highest balance per quarter, and submit that online through a separate FACTA reporting site to track.
If you haven't been doing this every year. You're on the hook for a lot of back taxes and fines based on your total financial assets, rather than any taxes owed.
Your child will need to start doing this the moment he earns any income in Belgium, and file a US tax return every year, in addition to his Belgium tax return, and then hash out the differences. This also requires opening him up a bank account in the US to actually deal with payments/refunds as well.
The only benefit for him, is if he wants to move to the US. Which generally is becoming less enticing.
I for one am going to cancel my green card (by leaving the US for more than 6 months), and move to Europe and work/live there instead.
I'd certainly consider any state that responds to human suffering with murder to be a failed state- so the United States is 3/50ths failed (so far, it'll be on the ballot in the rest of the states soon enough).
That's a very weird definition of failed state.
Or should I say: that's a variation bird deflamation of fancy stay, if I defined words in that fashion.
Yes, the taxes could be a nightmare; but consider the geographic insurance. The USA covers a huge portion of a continent. Sweden only covers a small northern territory. If something like a nuclear disaster, Gulf Stream shut-down, or foreign invasion happens, you've got more land to move around in with the USA. During our civil war, you could run off to the territories. If Sweden has a civil war, there's no way you're not involved.
Borris Johnson got dinged for tax by the IRS on selling his late mothers house - this is like say Hillary Clinton or Job Bush getting a tax demand from the inland revenue
If you fail to register for the draft, you are ineligible for any sort of educational federal financial aid (should you choose to take advantage of it), and you will have great difficulty ever obtaining federal employment in many different agencies (if that's something you'd like to do.)
Not true for any female!! I have never heard of any women posting not having this "right" when they complain about NOT being treated equally. Tim S.
The threshold is about $97000 this year.
You're trapped in a slow motion death spiral of a two party system slowly eroding your constitution. Maybe not failed yet, but most people have noticed the decline.
Once you renounce citizenship, I don't think the united states will let you back in, I'm not entirely sure but I believe that is the case.
You can still get a passport from your new home country you are a citizen of and get into the US to visit. Probably need to apply for a Visa if you want to stay more than X days, and need additional paperwork if you ever want to work there or reside for a longer period.
There is little advantage to being a US citizen, particularly when not living in the US. As you point out, you get a massive tax burden for the temerity of living overseas. If you lived in the US and your money lived overseas, that would be a different story. You live in an economically and politically stable country with few oil resources, so you are unlikely to need to flee to the US, and are also unlikely to get bombed by the US. You don't mention whether your children are white. You'd want to avoid the US if they aren't, they might get murdered, er, "justifiably killed" by the police some day.
All in all, I'd say: drop your US citizenship and don't even think about saddling your children with the moral questionability of being a US citizen in the 21st century.
No, because of FATCA.
Many banks in Europe will not let them have an account if their US Citizenship is know because of FATCA.
Further, they would be considered an expat, and have to file regularly.
Some good articles on the Tax situation:
http://taxprof.typepad.com/tax...
http://taxprof.typepad.com/tax...
http://taxprof.typepad.com/tax...
but why don't you, I don't know, get married for example?
If you want socialism, maybe you should move to sweden. Have fun with that 75% tax.
Is that before or after the US economy stops?
My mother is American, met and married a Spaniard, and she's been living here in Spain ever since, acquiring along the way Spanish citizenship. Me and my sisters were all born in Spain, but we all have US citizenship as well.
Fast forward more than 40 years, and we've been consulting with lawyers over last year about the huge burden the US citizenship has become for all of us, and are now figuring out how to renounce it in the least harmful way.
US citizenship brings us close to zero advantages: it just means we don't need a visa when we want to visit the US (which is rarely, and visas for European citizens are easily acquired anyway), and allows us to skip the foreigners line at the airport passport control. That's it.
On the other hand, the US is the only country in the world that taxes their citizens NO MATTER WHERE THEY LIVE in the world. We already declare and pay our taxes here in Spain, more than enough, and we rarely ever visit the US: why should we declare and pay taxes to the US government every year as well?
We have a family business solely operating within Europe, we have nothing to do with the US besides our passports, and while I won't go into details, our US citizenship has now become a huge pain the ass for our business and all of us individually. Basically, the IRS wants our money - even for taxes that don't exist where we live, such as inheritance - and they want know exactly what are we up to.
International banks have now bent to the will of Uncle Sam, and as soon as they realize they have a customer with US citizenship, they are pretty much forced to report to the US government about it, and it becomes an administrative headache for the bank as well, so they don't really want you - one European bank actually asked us to switch to another bank, as they know having US citizens on board means trouble for them as well.
Everyone here is whining about the taxes. The countries mentioned and those around them generally have higher taxes than the US so its usually a moot issue. The way its written is similar to the way dual state taxes work for a person who lives in one state but works in another: your taxes paid in the state you work are applied as a credit to your resident state. This means, in terms of states, if your work location has a higher state tax, then you pay nothing to your state of residence.
When we balloon this example up to the national level, this means if you are working in a country with higher taxes than the US, you won't owe US taxes. Yes, you still have to file tax returns, but its quite simple unless you have a complicated financial situation, which usually either means you're doing well and can afford the prep, or not doing well and won't owe anything anyway. Think back to when you were 25 or 30 and how simple your taxes were then. It starts to get complicated later on, and by then they'll have the money to decide if they want to keep it. As they say, mo' money, mo' problems.
One thing I haven't seen mentioned is the opportunities. My In-Law in Finland obtained a doctorate in a medical field and mentioned to me that he might have to move to the US for jobs in his line of work. The advantage of being able to come to the US and apply without having to go through a visa process is huge, it can cost companies tens of thousands of dollars to get a worker through the process in a reasonable timeframe and you really have to be worth the effort for an employer to do it. Dual citizenship is also something valuable to multinationals due to the cross-pond action and will allow a lot of promotion opportunities if that's where they end up. Last but not least, there are some really nifty scholarship opportunities for almost any dual citizen. My ex-girlfriend was afforded a significant scholarship to study overseas because of her dual citizenship with Hungary, and it also works in reverse.
Look at all their options, maybe even sit down with them and talk about it once you've laid them out in an unbiased manner. Currently, based on your summary and bullet point list, you're definitely looking at it with jade-colored glasses. I think you should step back and look at it through your kids eyes, trying to see if there's other things you missed that might hurt them down the road.
Personally, I don't see that any of these things as compelling practical advantages, given that the kids already have dual Swedish and Belgian (and therefore EU) citizenship. If they were Moldovan and South Sudanese, that'd be a different story. Or if they were citizens of a country from which getting a visa to enter the US might be difficult in the future.
But most importantly I think this is one of those decisions that you just don't make primarily on a cost-benefit basis. It's not like deciding to join Costco or subscribe to Hulu. Citizenship entails responsibilities. If you want your kids to shoulder those responsibilities and feel allegiance to the US then it makes sense to get them that citizenship come hell or high water. But given that they already have two perfectly good citizenships from two advanced western democracies with generally positive international relations worldwide, I don't see much practical advantage in adding a third.
Still, I wouldn't presume to give advice, other than this. The poster needs to examine, very carefully, that feeling he has that maybe his kids should be Americans. The way he expresses it, "sentimental reasons", makes those feelings seem pretty trivial, in which case it hardly matters if they don't become Americans. After all, most other Belgians seem to get along perfectly well without being Americans too. But if this is at all something he suspects he might seriously regret not doing, or if it nags him in ways he can't quite put his finger on, he needs to get to the bottom of that in a way random people on the Internet can't help him with.
Post may contain irony: discontinue use if experiencing mood swings, nausea or elevated blood pressure.
Not only that. Claim them and reduce your tax burden. IF you plan to keep yours.
You are not entirely correct there. There is an element that rose to become a power that promotes corruption and got nasty after WWII. They pretty much spent the country out of business at this point, maybe we should just hand them the printing presses for money so they can finish this place off and have no way to escape accountability for what they have done.
Don't worry. It won't be the "wars and hostility" that will cause the US to implode. It will be all the debt due to Federal entitlements. You are also free to move to the country of your choice if you don't like it.
1990 called, they want their cliché back. Yes, I've lived in Western Europe for a spell.
Anybody from the west is liable to be killed now, idiot. The difference is that Sweden and Belgium aren't going to send Seal Team 6 or Delta Force to come get you; we just might. Both of those nations not only lack the means to protect their own, they're cowards who are afraid of the Islamic menace on their own turf and fear provoking them, even if it means the lives of their own citizenry is at stake.
If they are citizens they they are eligible for financial aid that any other US citizen is; and depending on you residency status in a state would qualify for in state tuition. As for taxes, yes filing US tax forms is a pain but unless your tax situation is very complex it is not that bad. been there, done that, paid the taxes. The question is it worth it to them to have the option of moving / working / studying in the US without having to get a visa?
I'm a consultant - I convert gibberish into cash-flow.
Our politicians are batshit insane from living in a "Yes we can"/"Change" propaganda bubble, and want no part of modern civilization, but the US is hardly a failed state.
FTFY. And consider the barrage of proposals from US congresscritters to further skin alive those sane Yanks who want to be free (exit wealth tax FFS, among others) before shackling those poor kids to a lifetime of American citizenship. They would be reviled by 80% of the world while traveling, their "homeland" is constantly starting one-sided oil wars and drone-bombing foreign schools and failing its own youth, what really are the benefits of being American if you don't live in 'murrica?
Wealthy Chinese are paying big $$$ to birth their children in America, but I'm not sure if the reason is they want them to be US Citizens per se; or if the Chinese Govt has undertaken a long term initiative to eventually be able to influence US elections from the inside.
Did you ever wake up in the morning, with a Zombie Woof behind your eyes? -- FZ
I hope you've been practicing a good Canadian or British accent, because I don't think terrorists really give a shit about your legal status anywhere. God help you if you think they do.
Indeed. These days, the ones doing the most violence don't seem to trifle overly much about citizenship. Just being "western" seems to be enough to pique their ire. Also not being (the right kind of) Muslim.
That only applies to the son.
My wife and I are retired with pensions and modest investments. We were born in the US but have lived in Canada all of our adult lives. We have no US income, we have no US investments, and we pay no US income tax, yet last year our US tax return ran to 60 pages, not counting the FATCA reports. We pay an accountant $2000 to prepare our return because the rules change annually--indeed, sometimes twice a year--and we want somebody to run interference when the IRS comes back at us with erroneous demands from applying the wrong rules. Failing to file this return would leave us liable to an administrative fine (guilty until proven innocent) of up to one-third of our assets. Each of us put $5000 into a Canadian tax-free savings plan--a variant on a US IRA. After two years the IRS suddenly decided that for each year we had had these, each of us needed to file a trust return. Each of the four returns cost us $1000 in accounting fees. We used to keep our investments in indexed mutual funds and exchange-traded funds, but suddenly the IRS decided that to keep them there, each of us would need to file a trust return annually for each fund. We were obliged to sell them all and buy individual shares and bonds instead. To give up our US citizenship we would need to pay capital gains tax on most of our assets as though we were selling them all, including the value of a defined-benefit pension plan.
They also receive the gift of being obligated to pay US taxes. They will love you for that.
It's not an obligation, it's a privilege. At least that was what a lady who worked for the IRS told me once.
The difficulties for US citizens opening bank accounts elsewhere has been mentioned. I don't think it's been mentioned that it's difficult to open a brokerage account, too, and then many investments (such as European mutual funds) are off limits to Americans.
It's possible for (at least some) Europeans legally to organise their affairs such that they pay no income tax, no capital gains tax and (when the time comes) no inheritance tax. It would be impossible for a US citizen to do so legally.
Per the Immigration and Nationality Act ("INA"), YOU aren't a US citizen anymore, so you may not be able to confer that on your children. The two following events result in expatriation or loss of US citizenship:
1. obtaining naturalization in a foreign state upon the citizen's own application or upon an application filed by a duly authorized agent, after having attained the age of eighteen years; and
2. taking an oath or making an affirmation or other formal declaration of allegiance to a foreign state or a political subdivision thereof after having attained the age of eighteen years.
The complexity issue can be solved at a cost of <$1000/year.
Get an accountant to prepare your taxes. I am resident in the USA and have rental properties in the UK, so my taxes are fairly complex. If I had more income from the UK, the tax filings would be more complex, but really, it's not that hard as long as you are prepared to pay a professional.
The real "Libtards" are the Libertarians!
Anecdote, but here it is.
I know of a 75 year old senior citizen who owned a house in Canada. She has dual citizenship, US and Canada. She bought a house 40 years ago, and then a couple of years ago sold it. She had to pay US taxes on the "capital gains" on the home due to US citizenship.
She lost a huge sum of money because of a house she lived in for 40 years, never once claimed it on US taxes, never used it as a business or deduction, just because that's the American rules. 3 tax lawyers (2 in Canada, one in USA) told her there's no way around it. She "lost" over 20% for this tax.
So, if the kids are going to live in Europe, or anywhere, they can never purchase and sell homes. That alone would make it such that I would never suggest they gain US citizenship unless absolutely required.
I'd estimate the paperwork (including searching to ensure you are not ignoring legal obligations as a US citizen, occasional accountant/lawyer visits, etc.) to be on order of 20 hours a year. Less many years, some years you could spend 100 hours trying to make certain you are not breaking US law when you buy a house, are self-employed, etc.
Over 80 years, that's 1,600 hours. If you value your leisure time at $50/hours, than consider it to be about $80K worth of hassle to be a U.S. citizen. Add in $20K in lawyer/accountant fees over the years, and you could be looking at a total lifetime cost of about $100K.
Is it worth it? Well, if you're child chooses to work there, then it's easily worth it. But otherwise, probably not.
So, what you really want to decide (and only you can do so), is "Is the life-time option of working in the US worth $100K?"
Tell INS that your kids are illegals and they will roll out the red carpet to you. Promise to vote Democrat and your family will receive tax credits regardless if you have paid any taxes, free welfare, free tuition and many other amenities. If they will become citizens they will be helping to subsidize this crap.
What do you mean "Let them"? -- This is a choice that will affect *them* primarily for the duration of their adult lives. Military draft, taxation, future residency plans, or plans for college/post-secondary -- adult things.
My suggestion is that your role here is to compile a list of facts, pros, and cons to US citizenship, and prepare to have a frank and earnest conversation with your kids about it when they become 16 or so, and tell them that you'll help them begin the process when they're 17 if they choose to go through with it. Your role here is facilitator, not dictator.
I'm American. Worked in Canada for a few years. It was great, until tax time. And then I wished I was Canadian. I also realized that being American is only useful if you stay in America or run around in crazy war zones where the marines might come save you. That is all, it's not worth it. But let your children decide.
"And if you've got unearned income (e.g. interest on a savings account, stocks), you're probably gonna end up double-taxed on that (in both your country of residence, and by the U.S.)."
The W8-BEN form will cover you against double-taxation for 3 years (for countries that have a tax treaty with the US). But, yep, it's still a hassle.
I am a USA citizen (by birth) currently with permanent resident status in another country, and will be relinquishing my US citizenship the second I can get citizenship here. I am never going back.
As long as I'm a USA citizen, the USA will continue to rake income tax and can force the local ('foreign' to the USA) bank to freeze my assets if I refuse. (The taxes here are already high - which I don't mind because they take care of their own here, the USA gives me nothing in return)
I can't marry my partner (a citizen of this country) and we can't have a joint bank account or jointly owned assets or we BOTH get taxed.
We had to buy this property under my partner's name so the USA wouldn't demand taxes.
If my partner were to die before me (knock on wood) I would get stuck paying inheritance tax to the USA. We've had to do a lot of juggling to get around this possibility.
As long as I'm being screwed like every other American, I continue to vote in USA elections. They go out of their way to make this extremely difficult and much more complicated than it needs to be - not to mention sending the ballot only days before the election, making it virtually impossible to return it in time. I seriously don't believe my votes have ever been counted.
There are more (many more) tangible & intangible disadvantages to being a USA citizen. There is ABSOLUTELY NO ADVANTAGE to having USA citizenship.
But then, aren't you already aware of this?
As you say, the big advantage to having US citizenship is if they go into technology and want to work in Silicon Valley. No worries about green cards, H1B, etc., just move there and go to work.
The big disadvantage is taxes. But boy, what a disadvantage. It's like the US is trying to build a Berlin Wall around the USA to keep people in. Makes you wonder what our leaders know that we don't know about where our country is going.
Regarding renouncing citizenship, that isn't as difficult or expensive as described above, but if not done right you can be arrested for tax evasion if you ever set foot on US soil again -- even if just transiting to another country, such as flying from Paris to Toronto (which has a stopover in New York City). Ask Maher Arar about that one...
Send mail here if you want to reach me.
Explain it all to them, and let each one decide when he or she turns 16. They aren't legal adults and might not understand all of the tax ramifications, but if the parent has done a good job raising his kids, they'll be able to make a reasonable decision. It's isn't irreversible either way other than cost and hassle and the inability to be president.
Some people might say it's a foolish decision to give a 16-year-old, but come on, the guy's already asking Slashdot.
It doesn't hurt to be nice.
They don't check citizenship when they kidnap people. If they look and act "American" they will be treated as such.
Ok i'll bite. Things aren't quite so bleak. We certainly don't have the 'worst health care in the world' Ever been anywhere else? Sure there are better options, but many much much worse (I'm in El Salvador at the moment and the system here is quite different).
Secondly, 'astronomical crime rate' is ridiculous. The US and the world in general is less crime riddled than 10 years ago and becoming better every year.
Agreed on most issues, but to my knowledge there are zero states who say a college kid with a part-time job at an out-state school has a different tax situation then anyone else who worked out-of-state. You may not end up owing them money (Ohio, for example, won't collect income tax if you live here but work in a bordering state), but all that's up to the state.
As for moving to the UK, most states also do this. One reason many military families take up official Texas residence is that Texas has no income tax.
Hotel California. No renouncing later in practice they could be branded 'designated expatriates' and lots and lots of consequences. Scarlet letter no bank will deal with them.
seriously, why are you asking us whether your children should be us citizens? im biased, im american, i say yes, but this is a ridiculously personal decision. i will not be held responsible for such a choice. i would say that we are all fucked no matter which country we are citizens of.
You should be asking your S.O. and your attorney.
"Well, honey, I asked a bunch of random strangers on the internet if we should let our kids be US citizens and they said..."
General Relativity: Space-time tells matter where to go; Matter tells space-time what shape to be.
Better the U.S. than India or the Middle East.
Really, a hell of a lot better.
It's slightly different now. Obama cracked down on US Citizens hiding their income abroad (part of Mitt Romney's sweet tax deal is that all the income runs through a corporation headquartered on a Caribbean island that doesn't have an income tax), so it's very hard to not file taxes. Since you're in Australia/Peru/etc. there's no local H and R Block or Jackson-Hewitt to fill out the forms for you, and it's not like an Aussie corporation is gonna issue a W2 with total taxable income in Box 1. You can still do it, and once you figure it out once it's pretty easy and you probably don't owe the IRS money due to the foreign income exclusion. But you ain't gonna get Turbotax's free internet deal because the IRS requires you attach extra forms to exclude income, and the number you calculate on their form goes on a full 1040. Their free deal only applies to 1040EZs, and they'll probably charge you extra on top of their full 1040 fee for the 2555.
Moreover getting a bank account is more difficult then you'd think, because there's also a requirement that any bank attached to the international banking system must report all account activity by US Citizens to the IRS. On the plus side that means no more rich guys hiding income in Switzerland, on the minus side it's a huge pain in the ass for a bank to comply,. Some of them would have to hire an English-speaker just to read the forms. So quite a few simply refuse to do business with citizens.
Get the passport where you see your kid living its future life.
If possible I'd go for dual citizenship, nevermind the taxes, but not all EU countries allow this.
I'm from Western Europe and I'd totally go for Swedish citizenship though. Mostly because I believe in their idea of a free and equal society with a strong social system - offering great thins as affordable health care, strong worker protection, and affordable higher education. Sweden has one of the highest living standards in the world, beautiful landscape and its a safe country not embroiled in wars or conflict. Of all the EU it's probably one of the most family and kid friendly countries too. Also their bureaucracy is pretty foreigner friendly from what I saw - even if your kid will never speak fluent Swedish.
Unless you hate Ikea, constitutional monarchy or hotdogs it sounds like a pretty damn good choice for getting a passport from.
Compare spending on those two items. I dare you.
while my default position would be "you should grant them US citizenship... the tax bullshit really is onerous, and renunciation would be expensive.
I was actually in a very similar situation to the OP - I'm British and my wife is American. One of our kids was born in the US and so unfortunately automatically a citizen while our son was born in Canada and I signed to forms to allow him to get a US passport. In hindsight I wish I had never done this. The tax situation for them is unbelievably appalling - so bad that my wife is thinking of giving up her US citizenship (not that she wants to) once we get Canadian citizenship. Unfortunately that option is not available to our kids: it is impossible to revoke US citizenship before they are 18.
The reason the tax situation is bad is not just because you have to file US taxes if you earn anything - my wife stays home and looks after the kids at the moment so she has not actually had to file US tax returns. The killer is all the other paperwork that is not associated with taxes but with having accounts outside the US. If you have more than $10k outside the US you have to report every account that you own or are joint on to the US government separately of the tax form.
My wife was unaware of this requirement and only heard about it when there were reports on the radio of the US government fining US citizens in Canada 50% of their savings for not having reported their accounts. It gets even worse if you have any sort of investment: there are copious forms to report these to the US. But the worst thing is that this is poorly documented and when they change the rules they never bother informing their citizens abroad...they just wait for an opportune moment to start fining them.
So, provided your kids have citizenship in a European country so that travel will be easy for them there is absolutely no benefit from them having US citizenship and considerable problems. Looking back I really wish that I had been aware of the appalling behaviour of the US government to its own citizens because letting them get US citizenship has undoubtedly made their lives worse. I would strongly suggest that you do not register them as US citizens and if you are still not convinced check into whether this is a time-limited offer or not. For example as adults with a US mother I would expect that they could register as US citizens themselves once they turn 18 if they decided that they wanted to live in the US and perhaps by that time the US people will have managed to get their own government to treat them properly.
it's about possible future chances for their kid to riches, fame and education. Chinese really love to plan ahead. A foreign passport will make education abroad much easier and help with job prospects, even back in China. Not to mention you avoid the hassle that traveling on a Chinese passport gives you - like having to apply for a Visa for pretty much anywhere - i.e. forget ad-hoc trips.
Also the entry barriers for this 1st class Western citizenship are rather low. Just give birth. In other countries you have to have lived there for X years and hold on to legal work - now that is much more difficult for the average "I only speak Chinese and I don't want to work as cook" Chinese upper middle class person.
Aside from all the tax implications, I assume one of the reasons you are considering is that your kids could easily move to the US and work. But I don't know how much of an advantage this is when the median (as opposed to average) income in the US is so low. That along with high health costs implies that most Americans have a pretty low standard of living. It may seem great if you are in the upper 1%, however living with such income disparity is pretty grim.
If you have a regular salaried job,...
Heh heh, yeah, I suppose there are a few young single Americans living abroad whose finances are sufficiently simple that they could figure out all the relevant rules and regulations over the course of a couple weeks and then fill out and mail the actual forms in a single afternoon.
But, wow, does it get complicated fast. Suppose you've got a foreign bank account (i.e. your employer doesn't just pay you cash that you keep under your mattress)? Well, you've got to report that - and if the bank account paid interest then you'll have to report that, too. And if you employer provided any other compensation (health benefits, housing subsidy, etc) besides a cash salary then you'll have to report that, too. And you've got to be careful about spending time in the USA - or over international waters - because that can affect your tax status.
Certainly even a drooling moron could fill in the forms if you provided all the relevant forms and told him exactly what to write in each space. But understanding all the relevant rules and regulations well enough to be sure you're submitting all the necessary forms correctly is very time consuming even for someone who isn't a drooling moron.
The biggest advantage in my book is simplifying inheritance issues. For taxes, it doesn't become an issue until you have more than $100k income per year; the paperwork is fairly easy to file up until you have (guessing) about $250k income. At that point, the offsets become important and you need to be more careful. Although it was 10 years ago, when I was last living abroad the forms only took an hour max to complete, due to actual tax liability in the US based on no local income taxes.
It all really depends on what the kids want to do. Having two passports is pretty nice for a wide variety of situations, if you like to travel or want to live in another country for a long time without proper paperwork...
You have no idea of what you talk about. I am citizen of Colombia, Spain, Panama, and the United States. When I am in any other country of the US, I lose all support of US consular services, because I am beholden to the laws of those countries. I cannot commit a crime in Colombia and scream for US help... Please stop giving bad advice on the internet.
The Revolution Will Not Be Televised
I am struck by the fact that citizenship is so meaningless to you and almost everyone who has responded. This is seen as purely an issue of taxes and inconvenience. Seasoned with a few dashes of haters and grouches. Don't burden them with obligations to a place that means nothing to them. If they decide later that they actually want to be here and have to work to get in the door it will mean more. We'll have to defend them in either case but they won't have to pay for it.....
Bullshit. I probably have the most complicated tax situation (being a citizen of one country, living in another, filing taxes in a third one and having significant US income without SSN) and US taxes were not a problem at all apart from understanding the tax forms. And regular expats won't even have to pay anything unless you earn more than about $200k and live in a tax-haven country like Singapore.
NO! You have more freedom having an EU passport than a US passport. I also feel that since the US turned facist that n the long run they would be safer abroad. I would leave if I could.
putting the 'B' in LGBTQ+
It's not even just taxes. The US is so weird about all sorts of things that can bite you. When I got engaged in Iceland, Iceland wanted a certificate from the US proving that I'm not already married - it's a standard requirement here, and most countries have such a certificate. But not the US! In the US you can get a certificate proving that you are married from the state you got married in, but not a certificate proving that you're not married. The only way around it is to find the one sherrif's office in the country who considers a signed affadavit to be sufficient to wed (all of the others disagree).
I would never dream of cursing my kids with US citizenship. How mean could you be to them? I can't bloody wait to get my Icelandic citizenship so that I can formally renounce my US citizenship.
You know when it's okay to shout fire in a crowded theatre? When it's on fire.
...know the answer.
For tax and draft reasons alone you should not burden your children with U.S. citizenship. If, as adults, they really want to move to the U.S. they may be able to find a corporate sponsor, or, if they are rich enough, sponsor themselves.
It just isn't worth it IMHO, and I'm a naturalized U.S. citizen.
The pursuit of absolute tolerance leads to the most rigorous and ludicrous intolerance. - REX MURPHY
My first year in Iceland, my US return was so complex that most tax attorneys refused to touch it. One offered to do it for over $1000. I ended up doing it myself. Three years later I'm still dealing with the IRS on it. It was as thick as a book.
My subsequent returns have been simpler but are still really annoying.
Seriously, don't do this to your kids. Just don't.
You know when it's okay to shout fire in a crowded theatre? When it's on fire.
the whole "work in Silicon Valley" reason is the most laughable. There are so many fulfilling careers in the world - in IT and outside IT (especially outside IT). The chance that your kid wants to work in IT, and then, on top, move to the Valley - how big are they?
That's almost as crazy as people who teach their 4 year olds Mandarin so they can become the big shot in China in the future (yeah sure, without Guanxi or anything, good luck!)
Actually you can't just turn your passport in. You have to pay hundreds of dollars to formally renounce. And you can only do so if you're already a foreign citizen.
You know when it's okay to shout fire in a crowded theatre? When it's on fire.
If it were actually this bad, people would be mass emigrating to other countries. This is what happens in other countries that are actual cesspools instead of imaginary cesspools. Where do they come? America, yup. If they can get it. Funny enough, it's a pain in the ass to do it legally.
Shutting down free speech with violence isn't fighting fascism. It IS fascism!
Compare the pros and cons you listed. Which is the longer list: pros or cons? How much longer is that longer list? How likely are they to ever make use of that one pro? How likely are the cons? In summary, the cons far outweigh the pro.
It's worse than that.
In practice, you can't invest in foreign mutual funds.
Foreign institutions are required by US authorities to withold 30% of all gains if the client is an american citizen.
That's a major PITA for them, so what they do instead is just deny american citizens from opening an account.
-- Another senseless waste of fine bytes.
I am a lawyer, but this is not my field. Talk to lawyers in immigration, tax, and estate planning first. There is advantage in the flexibility of having multiple citizenships. What is true for education and taxes now may not be the same 15 or 50 years from now. It is hard to predict everything. Financial aid in particular could make attending US universities as a US citizen far more attractive; some very elite schools such as Princeton may be free for US citizens in the future. Also, in the extremely unlikely event of European war it would make fleeing much easier.
before ze germans get there.
lose != loose
First - what do the kids want? That takes precedence over ANYTHING that you want, your special other, or your attorney. What do the kids want? And, I hope you haven't been propagandizing them in preparation for asking them.
Second - what do they lose by getting dual citizenship? Absolutely nothing, right? What do they gain? Obviously, they gain the RIGHT (not the privilege, but the right) to enter and to leave the US at will, the right to vote, the right to bear arms, the right to serve - the list of rights goes on and on. No losses, all gains - it would be ignorant to deny the children the opportunities.
Your decision will last all of their lives - and all the lives of their children.
Do the right thing, and give the kids all the options possible for the future. If the children live long happy lives without ever visiting the United States - that's all well and good. If, however, politics and life somehow make their homes uninhabitable or unendurable some time in their lifetimes, they have an out. Hey - the reverse is equally possible. Life HERE may become unendurable sometime in the future, in which case MY kids would envy YOUR kid's rights and opportunities in Europe.
Give the kids the options, now and in the future. No good parent denies his/her children opportunity.
"Windows is like the faint smell of piss in a subway: it's there, and there's nothing you can do about it." - Charlie Br
Technically, the law is if your income is less than exemptions and personal deduction, you don't have to file, period.
But in practice you don't really have to file a tax return if you don't owe the government any more money than what you already gave them. The penalty for not filing your return is $0, presuming you owe no taxes. This is true whether or not you actually paid any taxes. The IRS will gladly accept your money and deposit it with the treasurer whether or not you file.
A ridiculous number of of people do this, knowingly or unknowingly. Most of the time they're leaving money on the table.
Sometimes people with shady business practices will pay taxes but never file a return simply because the penalty for perjury is much worse than the penalty for paying too little in taxes. They pay what they think they owe and hope they fly under the radar. If they're audited, again, there's no penalty for not filing; only if they miscalculated are they penalized, and the penalty is based on what they failed to pay.
Furthermore, even if you're an American citizen, and even if you owed some taxes, how is the IRS ever going to find out? If $2300 is alot of money to you, then you're definitely not making enough for the IRS to ever care, and probably not making enough to actually owe any taxes, period. Tax law, like copyright, is actually crafted to tolerate nominally illegal behavior.
All of this figured into the way John Roberts ruled when he upheld the Affordable Care Act. It was significant that the "penalty" for not getting insurance is in reality $0 for people who never file taxes (whether or not they were legally required to file), because the fee is only ever taken out of your refund. That allowed Roberts to satisfy himself that the mandate is not actually a new kind of power the government was exercising, where they attach a liability on you without you having affirmatively assumed some kind of duty. Taxes, of course, are the one big exception to the notion that you must affirmatively do something before the government can start dictating how you go about doing it.
Give them American citizenship, for this reason if for no other; when Belgium and Germany and France are all consumed by the Islamic State, when it imposes sharia law, they'll have someplace to flee to. Yes, it's possible that Belgian citizenship might get them entry to the US when darkness falls (and it may still happen here anyway) but the USA hasn't got the best record for accepting political refugees from Europe.
If they are American citizens, they're part of the family. And as Erma Bombeck once wrote, being family means that when you knock on the door, they have to let you in. (And if that wasn't Bombeck, it should have been.)
Perhaps it's unlikely - almost as unlikely as Islamic terrorists shooting up a French magazine office and a kosher deli. But it's worth considering.
I see a lot interesting and pragmatic points mentioned on this thread, but nearly all of them seem to opine based on the short-term consequences of the following: taxation issues, access to jobs, travel restrictions, and education.
Taxes (stupid reason, unless you're extremely wealthy):
Speaking as a former Ex-pat living in the UK, I can tell you that taxes are absolutely annoying as hell, but the honest truth is that the penalties are not bad at all even if you're late. It's a minor inconvenience, and the reality is that taxes are usually even owed unless you break 6-figure salary. You can inquire about Foreign Tax Credit or Foreign Earned Income Exclusion. Taxes is a poor reason to deny your children citizenship opportunity, especially where there is a good chance that such issues of taxation will be harmonized in your childrens' lifetime. Stupid tax policies don't last forever. Unless you're kids make A LOT of money, taxes won't really be a huge issue. If you're living in a low taxation zone, then there might be an issue, be European taxes tend to wash out any US tax claims. Additionally, while some dual-taxation specialists are very expensive, I found it far better to hire a reputable accountant in the US who can properly fill out FTC or FEIE forms, Turbo Tax Pro makes this very easy. I found a great guy who did 6 years of taxes for $650. For me thats a bargain with all my tax complexities.
Access to Jobs (very good reason in favor of citizenship):
The best reason I can think of is to provide citizenship to your children is so they have access to the US job market in the future. People give their kidney's for a green card for a reason. The ability to say you're a citizen helps in so many industries. It also allows you to demand higher pay in some instances. In my case, the equivalent British hire would have been hired for one-third less at my firm.
Travel restrictions:
I found that US citizenship helps with travel freedoms. I have no basis to compare US with Swedish/EU/Belgian travel freedoms but I would wager they are equivalent or superior in some instances.
Healthcare:
If Belgian/Swedish/EU healthcare access can be maintained while accepting US citizenship, then its really the best of both worlds. I miss the UK healthcare system dearly. One of the few known benefits of the NHS UK is that even if you live in another country, if you get critically ill, they will come out and fly you back to the UK for medical treatment. Chartered plane, nurse, the works. It really is amazing in the grand scheme of things. Not sure how NHS compares to other EU countries, but I'm sure its comparable and far superior to the US in terms of care and management.
Education:
Education opportunity and the ability to qualify for financial aid is the top reason, in my mind, why you should provide your children citizenship. As US citizens, your children will qualify for numerous grants, awards, and scholarships, as well as need-based financial aid. Whether you choose to use this for your children's undergraduate needs is your choice, but your children will find it much easier to pursue graduate studies in the US as a citizen. Foreign students simply cannot afford US universities unless they have strong family support back home. Additionally if your fear is that you don't want your students saddled with debt, don't worry, because the government can only take a maximum of 10% of Adjusted Gross Earnings in a given year. For people with children and average paying jobs, usually this means less than $500 to zero dollars. The great thing about federal loans is that you only really pay if you can afford to pay back. After 20 years of ontime payments (even if payments are zero), your debt is forgiven, and you just pay the tax on the remainder.
So all this said, if dual-citizenship is the option, go for it, besides the taxation issue, I see no serious downside. If you have to give up citizenship somewhere, then the issue deserves more thought. Regardless of all this, speaking to a lawyer is worth it.
I also feel that since the US turned facist
Obama isn't president-for-life. Don't panic. Just wait it out.
The post is at -1 because the user's karma is severely negative.
upon the advice of my lawyer, i have no sig at this time
It's really the fault of the liberials with their too cool for school President just trying to tell everyone what to do.
U.S. citizenship used to be a privilege. Today it's an obligation.
and I'll argue your 'jobs' point right back at you, against you.
there is NO retirement here. none. you will work until you physically die. or even longer ;)
there is no social safety net. not really. get sick or lose your job and you're homeless.
as you get older, jobs are harder to find. its not that way in other countries, at least in non-3rd world countries, but we go nuts about youth, but really hate our old folks. even middle age gets you rejected from many (most?) of the so-called hot jobs and hot companies.
you will have the least amount of time off, the most pressure to work, work, work! when you need to take a rest, they will fire you and hire a new fresh person. ie, they use and wear-out their workers, here.
jobs looked great to me up until I entered mid 30's and then things really changed. this is what happens when a culture favors youth to an extreme, like we do, here.
yes, there are a lot of top name companies here and many of their HQ's are here. but that does not mean that a job working for that same big-name co is not just as good (or better) overseas.
please don't give people the impression that work-life here is so great. its not. we kill our own people by overworking them and paying just enough to keep them there, but rarely do we employ people long-term anymore (at least in the bay area).
a steady job with workers rights overseas would be far preferable to the rat-race jobs in the US.
--
"It is now safe to switch off your computer."
Wow, thanks for the info. Go to know that if you are considering leaving the US due to the growing police-state, jewish control, etc that you probably won't be able to come back due to back-taxes. Something to consider when selecting a destination.
People whose field is IT tend to have children whose field is IT. And while the world is large, the SF Bay area is still the center of the technology startup world. The amount of money invested in SF Bay area technology startups every year by venture capitalists is greater than the amount of money they invest in technology in the entire rest of the world. While I agree that you can be a sysadmin anywhere, if you want to work on game-changing technology there's a mouth-drooling variety of possibilities in the SF Bay Area. I resisted moving to the SF Bay Area for years, but there's just too much cool stuff going on here to move away again.
I do not know these specific children so I have no idea if they have any desire to create leading-edge technology in the future. If they don't, US citizenship is just trouble. If they do, however, US citizenship opens up interesting vistas in one of the few places in the United States that isn't turning into a seedy dump.
Send mail here if you want to reach me.
Give them citizenship for now. Once your kids are independent adults, they can make their own decision about whether the tax and draft issues are worth the hassle; promise to help them pay the renunciation fee if they choose that option.
Multiple citizenship is one of those things that's a daily hassle, but could save your kids' lives. Imagine if you were making this decision in 1925! Of course the odds of Belgium falling under totalitarian rule are pretty damn slim (slimmer than the US, probably), but if it ever happens, you don't want to be the one to deny your kids a way to get out.
I am an American citizen. I have had seven children; my children have five mothers. Two in America, one in Thailand (died), four Thais still alive.
I prefer my children to be Thai. Indeed, if it were possible, I would give up my American citizenship and become a Thai citizen myself.
IANAL, but ...
You make the normal mistake that any kid of yours is an American citizen at birth.
I disagree.
AFAIK only YOU can get your kid an American passport.
Uncle Sam, in all his egocentric power, cannot force him to be a US citizen.
The USA passes laws that regulate the behavior of U.S. citizens even when they live overseas.
For example, sex with a girl under 18 is a federal felony.
What the hell will that mean when my son is 14 years old and discovers 15 year old girls?
My bank refuses to open accounts for US citizens because of IRS regulations,
how is that going to affect my offspring?
After our divorce, my ex-wife asked me to get our son a US passport, so I did. He's in Australia right now.
As a practical matter, a boy is not a US citizen unless the US government knows about him. If a boy is eligible for dual citizenship, I have heard that he must decide on one or the other before he's 18. My son is now 7; I figure he's got another 10 years to go before he has to make his own choice. Then it's up to him. Until then, let Uncle Sam ignore my son.
Andy Canfield (www.andycanfield.com)
No. The tax issues are not minor, they are huge. And the consequences of not filling out the exploding disclosure forms properly, on time, for the rest of your life include horrendous fines and threat of jail time.
The person who said "yes" is clearly an ignoramus or, perhaps, a troll. Regardless, s/he doesn't know what they are talking about or has never had to file or, maybe, has someone else file them for him/her. Regardless, you don't want to condemn your children to US citizenship when they already have a solid passport (the ONLY reason an international citizen might reasonably want US citizenship...and that is likely to change as the Forever War loses more and more respect for the US.
Our liberals are batshit insane from progressive dildo and living in a far-left-wing propaganda bubble, and want no part of civilization, but the US is hardly a failed state.
If you want your children to grow up taking the dildo up the rear, bring em to USA. This place is totally dildo.
move to sweden. Have fun with that 75% tax.
This. Exactly This.
Stay in Europe, and you won't be paying US taxes effectively, due to the foreign tax credits. Yes, you'll have to file a tax return every year, but that's not extremely difficult, especially if you don't have to pay any taxes. Taxes are significantly higher in most of Europe.
I faced a more or less similar choice a few years ago. Me and the misses were in the U.S. on a non-immigrant visa, and my wife was about to deliver. We could have chosen to deliver outside of the U.S. and avoid U.S. citizenship for my daughter. We chose to give birth in the U.S. so out little peanut would have dual (actually triple) citizenship. She will always be free to work in both the E.U. as well as the U.S. without any immigrant processing. She can choose to attend U.S. college, or European.
We reckoned that the simple fact that she would have to file a tax return every year would be an acceptable cost of all the benefits.
I'm not a complete idiot... Some parts are missing.
In addition to having the tax burden, they are not going to have an advantage in college due to US citizenship. "State" citizenship is what matters, so your kids will be paying out of State tuition and be on a waiting list (if it applies) to that school anyway.
Tax evasion is a federal offense. While technically if they make no income they are not required to "pay" they may still be in harassed and even jailed if someone wanted to investigate why they didn't file. So much for visiting Grandma right?.
If you have no plans of moving them to the US then why bother? The cons don't outweigh the burden in this case, but they can change their mind at 18 and file if they wish.
-The wise argue that there are few absolutes, the fool argues that there are no probabilities.
Joe Biden is a square shooter. Joe Biden for 2016!
But in what way is this News for Nerds?
You get US citizenship for those kids and they will be in BIG TROUBLE.
Our country has been seized by the Global Elite during 2007 financial crisis and is headed for a GIGANTO crackup boom with relation to its currency.
To cover for that they are building a police state, albeit slowly but very persistently.
Keep any and ALL financial assets out of reach of this country as they are already telling most of the voting simpletons they are going to get free this, and free that and everything is free.
So we have a Health Care law that has thousands of sub sections to confiscate your assets, ALL OF YOUR ASSETS if you accept ANY PART of the so called free heath care plan for example.
The police are already executing people, it is a HUGE problem in Texas right now cops putting drugs in peoples cars in order to seize their homes for example.
(The last place you want to drive that nice sports car is in Texas my friend.)
Until we put pitch forks in the the hineys of the Oligarchs who run this place from Wall Street stay far far away from this place.
When the currency fails, or the war they are planning starts up to cover for 2007's thievery all hell is going to break loose.
(Like sending in troops to cause trouble next too a major Nuclear Power/Russia.)
The USA is a MAD HOUSE.
Got Geometrodynamics? Awe, too hard to figure out? Too bad.
There is another problem. Since the start of the Obama Dark Ages, the US has started requiring that foreign banks doing business with Americans living overseas file special new reports. This has resulted in banks rejecting business from Americans because it isn't worth the hassle to file such reports for the benefit of one foreign country. So if you live overseas today, you have to deal in piles of cash for all your everyday transactions.
The IRS is quite bad enough. Ordinary people in Canada at retirement age have to pay thousands to accountants as tax treatment of retirement funds and mutual funds is a whole 'nuther ballgame.
FATCA is deadly. To add to the misery, you have to also report on your non-US citizen spouse.
Fortunately my father was born in Canada and my US citizenship lapsed under the law in effect when I turned 25 having been resident in Canada as a Canadian the 3 previous years (actually 15).
Nowadays US citizenship is much stickier. Many Ontario children are accidental US citizens because there were no Canadian high risk obstetric beds available when there was a pregnancy emergency requiring a helicopter ride to Buffalo NY where they were born.
There should be an easy way for a dual citizen young adult non-resident in the US to renounce or put his US citizenship in abeyance.
FATCA would be a hundred times simpler if foreign account tax reporting requirements were only applicable when they were in countries you don't live in as long as you were in compliance with local tax authorities. That would make life much simpler.
I considered obtaining US citizenship for my children, but with FATCA now on the scene I'm grateful I didn't.
The US seems happy to let me in on my Canadian passport.
It's the biggest economy in the world, and it's notorious for being strict in their immigration policies. We get it, you don't like it because of some ridiculous first world problem or another, but are you really going to use your kids' futures just to make a point? If you don't like the draft and taxes, go vote for the guy who wants to abolish them in the next election, but don't deny your kids a chance at something millions of people would die for.
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Stay tuned for some shock and awe coming right up after this messages!
Minor tax issues?!
You have to file income tax on both ends, your country of residence, and the US for the rest of your life. I hated that red tape.
The US is the only country that takes the stance that all your world wide income no matter where it is generated has to be declared, and is going to be taxed by the IRS.
Yes, there are double taxation agreements, but if you make a lot of money you are screwed.
Many banks outside the US these days won't even service Americans because they have to report all account details to the IRS, an extra workload that they are not interested in taking on, especially since it exposes them legally to US laws.
All of the above also applies to green card holders. Which is why I gave mine back. Not so easy to get out of citizenship. You have to pay hefty fines that seem to get hiked up regularly if you want to hand in your passport.
Sorry folks, but your government seems to think it owns you.
I am non American and have an American son. Unfortunately, we did not have the exemption. US citizenship costs us big: he can't participate in local education savings plans or tax mechanisms not explicitly covered in the US treaty. Worst of all are the FBAR requirements, which you no doubt know about, but the penalties can be crippling if filed wrong. I estimate my sons us citizenship costs us about 8k per year in lost tax savings and hiring a professional to get the tax returns right.
If you want socialism, maybe you should move to sweden. Have fun with that 75% tax.
And yet Swedes have a higher quality of life than Americans.
There is more to life than just money money money.
Unless you plan on living in the United States don't do it and let them decide at 18 if they really want it.
It's more than just tax paperwork. There are asset declaration forms to send to Treasury Dept. Failure to file these can result in prison sentences.
Since you wouldn't be living in the US.... probably there are no assets that US law provides you any rights to control over, they fall out of the limited powers provided of the US constitution, so there are no possible lawful acts by the US government with respect to these; if you live in Belgium, for example, the home you live in is Belgium property governed by Belgium law.
Belgium law might give direction of the property to your person, since you directed what Belgium law recognizes as a transfer of one thing you are in control of for another, but the real-estate is outside of US jurisdiction, so no US law can grant or recognize you as having a right to direct the use of this property, since the land is on another country's soil.
Since no privilege or right you have under US law and no privilege or right you have under any treaty gives you the right to direct use of that property inside Belgium, it is not your asset... it is Belgium's asset that you have been afforded a right to control, a legal right valid only within their jurisdiction: so there is no sense reporting it to another country outside their jurisdiction, where your legal right to control that property would not be valid.
The same would apply to all your belongings and accounts in Belgium.... these aren't assets, since you can control them only in belgium... you don't "own" things, ultimately everything belongs to the state, except in Belgium you have a right to direct their use and disposition.
Oh yeah, and as long as you don't export anything from Belgium, there isn't a goddammed thing any other country can do about that, even to pry and try to figure out what exactly those things are, let alone attempt to gain control of some of them.
I agree, it's what I'd do for my kids.
It' seems to be a lot cheaper and easier to renounce citizenship that to get it the hard way - h1b +5 years.
Taxes only become an issue when you have investments, if you just have employment income filing a 1040 is easy - no state taxes...
It's their life, the best you can do for them is to give them opportunities, I'd say that giving your kid the right to work in the US at any point in their life is is a worth a bit of paperwork...if they want to give up that right it's their call...
Richard - originally UK citizen, then added USA, married USA citizen, now living in UK but working in USA. Trying to coordinate UK and US taxes makes my accountants bill probably higher than most people's tax bill :-(
Minor? They have to report all their income and pay US taxes on any amount above the exclusion (currently a bit over $90K, only applies to normal income). They also have to pay taxes on capital gains with no exclusions. They have to report every bank account they own, every year. This is a separate filing. The penalty for not reporting is $10,000 per account per year. Many U.S. ex-pats don't even know about this requirement.
To any US Ex-pats reading this, get on this. You're setting yourself up for trouble if they want to put the squeeze on you. It's called an FBAR, part of the Banking Secrecy Act. Link.
Let the kid(s) decide when they are a teenager.
As a fierce American patriot, I have to recognize that what originally made America so special was the core liberal values that are now much more universal, esocially in Europe. (PS - I do not mean the "Liberal" caricature that is standard fodder on American media today, but basic liberal values as defined universally: universal suffrage; free press; no state religion; representative democracy with regular election cycles; military subservience to civilian, elected control; respect for private property rights; and full legal equality for all citizens.) More so, given the seemingly mad rush to insanity encompassing us here today, I would encourage you to give very, very serious consideration to staying more "European". Sadly, we are becoming much more "Idiocracy" than we should, and I see no real benefit to becoming American. Unless, that is, your religion is the Gun, and you are willing to make regular sacrifices of your children and fellow citizens to appease this American God(TM) In that case, sign them up and arm them well and train them well in how to pray to their new God. (PS - I own 3 firearms: a Ruger 10/22; a 1911 ACP clone; and a Ruger .357 magnum. I like my guns a lot, but I do not love and worship them. If the local police - and I live in a rural Georgia county, so that ain't likely - for whatever reason asked me to register and/or test fire my weapons for them to help with solving a crime, I would have no problem with that. But, that's the difference between liking something and worshiping/sacrificing citizens to something.)
Cheers!
All your points are valid consideration IFF the choice is to give up EU citizenship while accepting US. I don't believe this is the case with regard to the question. I could have worked in the Uk my whole life as a UK citizen and be entitled to my national UK pension as well as social security. Citizenship is not a prerequisite for retirement, welfare, or entitlements; only legal residence.
....now not so. Your best and brightest struggle to earn a living. University Professor is no longer considered a middle class profession. Your chances of becoming a US captain of industry are only slightly better than your chances of growing wings.
Trust me. As an American citizen living overseas for more than half of my life, I only realize now what a terrible mistake I made getting my children US passports. Having american citizenship confers only 2 benefits that I can see, one financal (the ability to invest directly in the US stock market without restrictions) and one educational (the ability to attend any US university once admitted). The downsides (also financial, i.e. tax) FAR outweigh any benefit. I've been paying taxes for 25 years in a country where I no longer live, and derive no benefits from. I've been denied financial products in my "adopted" country (where I am a citizen. no less), because of my US citizenship.
Boris Johnson, mayor of london, was recently hit with a ginormous Tax bill from the IRS because of the capital gains on a sale of property. even though he hasn't lived in the US for 50+ years http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/11361816/Boris-Johnson-to-pay-six-figure-American-tax-bill.html
I'm going to give mine up; and will make sure my children do when they turn 18, before they are forced to pay fines to the US government.
And who knows where the US will be in 16 years.
centered at 39'50 N 98'35 W
(I don't know how to make the degree symbol on slashdot)
“Common sense is not so common.” — Voltaire
I don't necessarily disagree with your main premise, but our medical system is head and shoulders above almost everyone else. Yes its financial burden may not be equitable, but in extreme situations no one really holds a candle. Is it best for the largest area of the bell curve? Maybe not. But an enormous amount of energy goes into servicing the tails; that isn't necessarily a bad thing.
Anyone can drop US citizenship,
just go to a foreign country,
get citizenship there finalized,
report to a USA Embassy,
and surrender your USA passport with
a signed and certified witnessed letter of
rejection. Any additional paperwork the Embassy can help you with.
Your taxes must be all paid in full, and a few other details,
but it is not hard to discard US Citizenship.
You will need new citizenship someplace else first,
because it would be very problematic
if you accidentally become truly stateless.
It's the GOP that's fascist, what with the reflexive support for corporate power and hegemony over the individual.
If you are dumb enough to ask this question then of course the answer is NO. Don't make your kids Americans. But since you are dumb enough to ask this question, then if you choose to make them American Citizens, you and your family will fit in nicely. At least in Texas.
I am in the similar state as you. My son was born in Europe two months before we got married. Its great you referenced the court cases as the US embassy is being very abusive to us demanding we have his citizenship arbitrated and will not issue a tourist visa to him so we can go see are parents. My advise to you is wait to the last minute to decide. The States provides very few services to its citizens and demands a lot, ask Boris Johnson. America has change and sometime you just have to walk away.
I'll start by saying (as others have) that until your kids are in their mid-teens, you don't need to worry about this overly much. But around the time they're 15 or 16, start talking to them about it. When they're 17, let them decide.
The major reason I suggest waiting until their teenage years is that they may have some idea of what they want to do for a living. If they want to go into banking, or technology, or any number of professions where it won't matter one lick where they're living, then I'd err on the side of not getting them US Citizenship. However, there are some fields in which being able to easily choose between Europe and the US make dual citizenship a critical factor. For example (the one I've had the most direct experience with), if your kids want to be academics or work as research scientists of some sort, dual citizenship in the Eurozone and the US allows them to *easily* go where the funding (and research) for their field is best. That's not to say that they wouldn't be able to anyway, with a good enough CV, but especially in their early years before they have that CV, it is a huge benefit to be able to tell a university or research institute that they won't have to deal with any visa sponsoring issues. If they think they'd like to go into tech, I'd say the same thing. Startups (on either continent) often can't handle visa sponsorship when they're just getting off the ground, and if your kids decide they'd like to have their own company, they might be eligible for more kinds of financial assistance if they have dual-citizenship (well tri-citizenship in their case, I suppose).
As someone with *many* friends around the world, some US citizens and some not, I can tell you that having dual citizenship in the Eurozone and the US is not without some tremendous benefits. As someone who has lived (and worked) abroad, I know first hand the tax situation will be annoying at best, and painful at worst.
I would guess that they probably would be just fine without US citizenship. But if they're leaning towards a college education in the US or a field that has better work opportunities in the US, it might be worth it. If things don't pan out, the $2500 it costs to renounce citizenship is minor in comparison to the cost of foreign tuition at most public universities.
Some countries in my case are different (besides Belgium), but I decided to let the kids have all three citizenships. IMO, you never know and I don't want to take away their birth given right. So, IMO, despite being the US citizenship, go for it.
US Embassy help is often some arrogant little 20s something know-nothing that doesn't give as good service as the deputy county clerks in the US.
Yes, both George and Hillary.
For Chinese, the equation is different, because their original citizenship doesn't really confer as many benefits.
But for someone in a Western European country, it's a very valid question to ask.
The IRS persecution (there is no other word for it) of citizens abroad is a problem. At the same time it's only a recent development, starting in the Obama administration. To be clear, the obligation of expats to file with the IRS always existed but it was not enforced on Americans who lived abroad and had no economic activity in the U.S. until the Obama administration made it a priority, for dubious reasons.
As awful as this mess is (I say this as an American abroad) there is some optimism to believe that it will change, perhaps as soon as Obama leaves office.
The question you need to ask yourself is if the lifelong disadvantages of not having American citizenship - frictionless access to the American economy and American opportunity - is worth the advantage of avoiding ridiculous IRS garbage that is likely to go away and won't hurt most of the time it is a problem anyway.
Wait, so the one time the "man" isn't spying on you and tracking how you live your life, you throw a fit? Jesus christ...
How do you expect a single state to say that you aren't married in another without another interstate/federal database? Or did you want every county clerk given access to federal IRS filing status records, which still won't ID those filing separately.
Or don't get US citizenship, and solve the complexity issue for $0 / year.
(Read on below for the rest.)
Umm, yes. That's how reading works.
(Read on below for the rest.)
So what was the point of that?
systemd is Roko's Basilisk.
In a lot of other countries (most of them with a better median quality of life than the US) your "liberals" would be considered at best centrist, and in most cases right wing.
Head and shouldes above the rest? Yes, if you like to go bankrupt on the simplest procedure.
The USA spends more on health care than most other countries, and gets less "health" in return.
Heck, even the French pay less per person than the US, and gets better results. Don't believe me? Fine, read it and weep.
Also totally relevant: Breaking Bad could not happen in Europe. Wrap your mind around this one.
The right to offend is far more important than the right not to be offended. (Rowan Atkinson)
The wide array of job opportunities in the US, the ability to easily apply and receive job offers is invaluable.
If the requirement to file taxes becomes too onerous your kids can make their own decision to renounce.
I left Intel in Ireland. I realise now the possibilities for work in the US is gave up the moment I stepped out the door.
Kind of sad to see people who trivialise the opportunities they have and question the value of those opportunities to their kids.
If you don't want to be an American or have your children be Americans then please feel free. As a matter of fact, go ahead and renounce your citizenship. However, when the larger members of your confederation get tired of being all peachy with the rest of Europe or the Russians get aggressive, don't call us. It hasn't even been 30 years since half the continent was an array of totalitarian dictatorships. America may not be perfect but we haven't needed Europeans to invade North America to overthrow dictators or stop the wholesale slaughter of ethnic minorities.
You do remember Hitler, Napolean, Mussolini, Stalin, and Milosevic right? I truly hope that history does not repeat itself but you need to ask yourself where you want your family to be if the worst happens. History is not on your side.
There is nothing to gain here.
If they ever want to become American citizens, I presume they still have many years to make that decission themselves.
Travelling using a US passport will only limit your options of travel.
Every western country has consulate services in every other country.
American politics is a lost cause to them, where the only options (from a european point of view) would be between a right wing party and an extreme right wing party. Neither of which will make any significant impact on their lives outside the US except perhaps the amount of additional wasted taxes they'd need to pay.
It's 56%, which includes great healthcare and lots of other benefits. If you compare what Swedes get for their taxes compared to Americans, you'd see that 56% is actually a pretty sweet deal.
Tax in Sweden is around 30 %. If you earn more than usd 4300 per month you pay an additional 20 % on the earnings in the second band. This is hardly 75% whatever way you are counting
Unfortunately you do become eligible for US taxes. As the OP says, capital gains for example on the sale of a first house. This is not taxable in many EU countries, but is taxable in the US. So, you have to give that cash to the US government when you sell a house because the US has a tax that the EU does not. Of course, if there is a European tax that the US does not have, you have to pay that as well.
Like all things to do with immigration, it's pretty unclear what the best option is here. No wonder the OP is confused.
get it they then they have a choice later in life. take it from some one who has multiple citizenships. you never know where you will end up
While everyone has a different situation, here it Switzerland it was just easier to give up my US passport. Thousands spent every year with an American CPA, and a Swiss accountant to make sure everything is neat and tidy (US return was always more than 90 pages). One factor that nobody has mentioned is the exchange rate of the dollar against other major currencies (Yes, QE does have an impact...). This factors into your wealth calculation on the way out to determine if you're eligible for the exit tax. For ages the Swiss franc was 1.60 something against the dollar. Now .90 CHf buys a dollar. So in USD terms my wealth nearly doubled, yet over here I don't see any difference. If the dollar slips again, then it's going to be quite easy to exceed the 2 Mio USD threshold which will trigger the exit tax.
In addition, they just recently bumped the expatriation fee to $2350 without warning; my prediction is that there will be no qualifier on the exit tax in the future - it will start from asset zero with no limit.
And for those mentioning the exemption (currently about 90k USD) - that's the "foreign earned income". This only applies if you have a job and are earning a paycheque. There are several instances of couples over here with dual citizenship who have been nailed with US taxes just after retirement - retirement income is taxed from zero, the FEI exemption does not apply to pension and investment earnings at that point.
I do note that my two boys do have US passports, but they were born 2003 and 2004 before all of this nonsense started...
I'm a Canadian who has worked in the US as a non-resident alien, so had to file an American return some years. My Canadian accountant had a tame American accountant she sent clients like me to for stuff like that: US tax law is just too complex for foreigners to bother with.
But taxes aren't the only issue. The OP says, correctly, "My son would have to register for the draft".
This is not a small thing. I know someone who grew up in the US in the '60's--a Canadian born to Canadian parents in Canada whose family had moved to the US--who was refused permission to leave the country at the age of 18 because he was draft-eligible. He got out eventually, but it was a big legal hassle.
The draft is on hiatus just now, but there is no certainty it always will be.
Blasphemy is a human right. Blasphemophobia kills.
And even if you don't owe taxes, FACTA still requires that you declare the amounts and kinds of your overseas holdings.
Uhm.. Only if they specifically identify themselves as such.
And since they would be dual-citizenship, if some terrorist demands their passport, they could provide their other passport and be Belgian or Swedish, etc.
Let's suppose you have two children and your U.S. Adjusted Gross Income (AGI) is about $75,000 or less. (If you earn more the math *might* change.) When you file your U.S. tax return (filing status Single, or Head of Household if you qualify), as a resident of Belgium (a comparatively high income tax jurisdiction) you should NOT take the Foreign Earned Income Exclusion or Foreign Housing Exclusion (IRS Form 2555). Instead you should only take the Foreign Tax Credit (IRS Form 1116). You should also take the Additional Child Tax Credit (IRS Schedule 8812). Follow that particular path, preferably using your favorite tax preparation software (even the free ones like TaxAct or TaxSlayer), and you should see a REFUND at the bottom of your tax return. Yes, the IRS will send you $1000 per U.S. citizen child per year in free money. Really. (In tax years 2009 and 2010 there was another $400 in free money available as a special refundable tax credit, but maybe you missed that.)
Take the money and save it for your kids, or spend it on your kids, or some of both. That's about $17,000 per child in free money over their childhoods. When they turn 18, THEY can decide whether they wish to terminate their U.S. citizenships or not. I'd advise them not (under present conditions at least), but under current law it's free to do so before age 18 1/2. Even if it's not free, they've started with $17,000 in free money plus interest.
No brainer, here: get your kids' U.S. citizenships documented. U.S. citizenship literally pays.
Yeah, with US citizenship you have to pay tax.
(Ok, there's probably a statute of limitations, but you get the idea.)
Don't count on it. I haven't looked up the U.S. specifically ( ok I did... see below) but here in Canada the statute of limitations is for your tax filing.
If you didn't file or you filed a fraudulent return they can go back pretty much as far as they want.
oh here it is: http://www.irs.gov/taxtopics/tc153.html
"However, the statute of limitations for the IRS to assess and collect any outstanding balances does not start until a return has been filed. In other words, there is no statute of limitations for assessing and collecting the tax if no return has been filed. "
You forgot to mention that visitors may have their laptops and other electronics stolen on entry or when straying close to the border; that they can then be legally molested; that when driving around, anyone may be stopped by the police and have their money and valuables stolen without recourse; that when they arrive home their house may have been taken by the state without their being accused of a crime - likewise their bank accounts may be frozen; that should they actually be accused of a crime, there's a high chance that additional charges will be levelled so-as to encourage an out-of-court settlement; that people in other countries have had their freedoms removed as a result of pressure via your government from your entertainment cartels.
Requiem for the American Dream
The toxic neoliberalism that causes all the problems you describe in the US has infected Europe as well; its running riot with the coalition government in the UK trying to destroy the NHS by stealth, and on the continent its manifested by the technocrats running the Eurozone inflicting deliberate economic hardship on nations like Greece for the own byzantine macroeconomic aims.
The political classes of all western countries are heading towards Chinese levels of corruption, self-service, and outright theft. Democracy has descending into moronic partisan bickering over minor variations on the same agreed policies which are the real problem. Prime Ministers Questions makes the US Congress look like a bunch of functioning adults. The media is little more than clickbait and sensationalism.
This is the part of the post where you expect me to promote my Perfect Answer to all of this. Sorry, I don't have one. Anyone who claims they do is likely wrong.
In a nutshell.
Let them choose when they are of age. I think the key bit is the IRS stuff. The London Mayor Boris Johnson has fallen foul of this, having dual American and British citizenship. He's trying to revoke his Amercian citizenship "so he can be more pure if he stands for PM" or something like that. Personally I think he's fed up with the IRS crap.
Why can't women be like Hedy Lamarr - beautiful, talented and inventors of frequency-hopping spread-spectrum techn
I strongly agree with a couple of other posters. Leave it until the kids are 17 before doing anything, and then treat them like adults and involve them in the decision. Make sure they understand the down-sides as well as any ups. If you can manage to take them to the US ahead of time for long enough for them to get more than just a tourist's view, do so. But DON'T lumber them with a dual-nationality tax obligation that THEY will struggle with for years, simply because YOU'RE nostalgic about the old country.
You could hide in a US consulate if someone retaliated at the US government's foreign policy via you. It seems fair that the citizens should pay for this as foreign policy is created on their behalf..
Requiem for the American Dream
Given that the tuition fee in Belgium is low (835 Euros in 2013/14 according to http://studyinbelgium.be/) and MUCH more in the US, and education being free in many countries outside the US, I fail to see that as a problem. Also, if your children grow up outside the US, why would they choose to leave their homeland (which isn't the US by then) just because daddy came from there? Mine won't, and I'm totally fine by that.
Reports of Europe's demise a greatly exaggerated. There are problems, but we still have an excellent standard of living and will resolve our issues in time. It's not nearly as bad as the problem in the US.
const int one = 65536; (Silvermoon, Texture.cs)
SJW, n: "Someone I don't like, and by the way I'm a fuckwit" - AC
I have support from my countries consulate services, while I pay NO taxes in my country of origin.
In fact, my whole family does the same, all living in 4 different countries on 2 differnt continents with 4 different (European) nationalities.
In fact, My father, mother, sister and myself have 3 different nationalities.
Don't fight for your country, if your country does not fight for you.
I would second the comments about consulting a lawyer on this. For one, I think there might be a difference between having had USA citizenship and renouncing it (should your children do that) and never having had it. In the former case, you may be ineligible for a green card.
Well, if they are almost 18, why don't you just let them decide for themselves? Explain the pros and cons, they should be old enough to understand. If you think they lack the maturity to make the decision, then they'll probably be better off without the complexity of filing American tax reports for the rest of their lives. Basically, don't do it unless they understand the consequences and want you to.
Summary seems to be missing 2 key points of information. 1)How old are they 2)what do they want. Also citizenship of 3 countries is a bit much don't you think. Especially when one is Belgium. Out of all places in the world why Belguim, the toilet stop of Europe.
Wanna buy a shirt?
https://www.redbubble.com/people/stealthfinger/shop?asc=u
That won't last when they become 99% muslim. Sweden, yes!
Wait for them to grow up a bit.
Let *them* choose in the last year they can.
A 17-year-old is old enough to decide what the hell they want to be recognised as.
Chances are, they really wouldn't care less as they'd not lived most of their life in America.
Where do they come or where do they go? Not sure what your trying to say there- innuendo?
Yes, many do go to the US, but they so to other places as well Europe, Asia, etc. The migrants will go were they perceive they will get more out it even though they might not have a true perspective, since they, most of the time,have not actually been there. It has become an industry whereby coyotes sell a lie at any cost. They have very knowledge of tax laws only of what they will get out of it.
That's not specific to the US, the UK (and I expect any other "anglo saxon" country) is the same.
In my case it was fixed by having the vice Consul of the British Embassy phone up the low level fonctionaire at the town hall and read out the apropriate places in the French Code Civil that said an affidavit was good enough.
Watch this Heartland Institute video
So you find the government actually keeping track of vital records and legal statuses to be overintrusive and to be "spying and tracking how you live your life"?
Okay, I'm going to go have a conversation with rational people now....
You know when it's okay to shout fire in a crowded theatre? When it's on fire.
At least in Europe, you get something in return for those taxes. It isn't wasted almost entirely on wars and the offence industry (calling it "defence" is just propaganda in the US).
Belgium, Germany and France are faaaaaaaar more secular than US. It is much more probable that the US succumbs to christian extremism and de westboro baptist church starts deciding their laws, than any of those three secular countries adopting the sharia.
Islamic terrorists killed 20 people in France. Islamic terrorist killed 20000 people in US. Does that mean that US has 100x more chance of adopting sharia?
Sorry, but citizenship *is* meaningless.
Except in very rare circumstances beyond your control, you have NO choice of your given citizenship. Getting actual, proper, legal citizenship of another country is one of the most difficult things to achieve in life and mostly down to chance (their father being American, for example).
The US has this patriotic side which I compare to, for example, religion. It's like being Christian because your parents were. Or being a Tottenham Hotspur / New York Yankees fan because you lived in the immediate area. I find it too close to blind faith and drawing territory lines and hating all those not on your side of the line.
I'm British. I have a ton of stuff of which to be proud of the country I happen to be a citizen of. And a ton of stuff which disgusts me to my core. I can't see a single other country in the world where that's any different, except in the details. There's nothing that makes my - or any - country universally superior there.
But proclaiming that citizenship of my country is something to blindly pursue because of how good my country is, as the summary implies? No way. I couldn't say that about my own - or any other - country ever. Sorry, we do far too many stupid things that I wouldn't want to put my name too. Everywhere does.
Like Anonymous and similar organisations, you're lumping thousands of people together and assuming they all work, live and think the same as you because you're part of the same group in one instance. It's like joining The League Of Stephens and thinking that Stephens must be superior to any of those other name-clans.
I find it a very primitive, blinkered way to live your life. (It also happens to help quickly shut down banal conversations about religion, politics, football, and a ton of other subjects that I honestly couldn't care less about discussing with people who think, e.g. Conservatives are this type of people and do this and caused this thing over here, etc. etc. etc. Always open to discussion, but the second you talk about a group of several million people as one-mind, we aren't going to get on - extend to "Muslims are terrorists" and whatever else you might be stupid enough to think as necessary).
I happen to have been born in the UK. I like that we have a National Health Service that isn't like the US health service where friends I know are suffering because there is no National Health Service over there. I consider the vote to not introduce one to be one of the most stupid decisions in the history of any country.
Equally, I consider the UK to be intensely stupid in joining in with any US military activity. We are, quite literally, the little squirt at the back of the gang who gets picked on and told what to do and made to join in with whatever the bully wants from them this week.
And I can extend this polarisation to thousands and thousands of political, culture, etc. decisions on both sides.
Citizenship is meaningless. Living your life is not. If you're persecuted in a country, get out of that country. It's a simple life decision and "loyalty" to your country is a very, very, very old and outdated concept based on the same "gang" culture that sees North vs South in every country in the world.
I'm loyal to my principles, and patriotic to me. Where those coincide with particular countries, peoples, or concepts is where I'll find agreement and where they don't I'll find disagreement - and almost always both.
But the chosen citizenship of your children? Who cares? It's like your favourite colour or what kind of food you like. Let them worry about it. Because it means nothing. It's the other stuff that they choose to do about it that matters. Like becoming a citizen of one of the Middle Eastern countries doesn't make you a terrorist, but living in Manchester doesn't mean you WON'T be a terrorist. Worry about your kids doing bad stuff, not about where they might want to choose to try and live in a few years time.
The US is doing quite well compared to Europe; Europe is imploding.
It really isn't.
Wanna buy a shirt?
https://www.redbubble.com/people/stealthfinger/shop?asc=u
I'm a contractor who lives overseas but works almost exclusively for American companies I used to work for when I lived in the US. I also have a house undergoing foreclosure in the US. Oh, and on top of that, I accidentally spent 40 days in the US last year, which as far as I can tell means that I don't get the foreign tax exemption this year because the US considers that as not residing in the foreign country. Because apparently 325 days abroad and 40 days in the US clearly means I'm just a tax dodger living in the US and declaring residence elsewhere for the tax break.
It's a fucking nightmare that I pretty much just try to stumble through the best I can and hope for the best. Most years I even end up giving a few hundred dollars to the US almost certainly unnecessarily, because TurboTax says I should and I'd rather not go to prison next time I visit family in the US.
Add to that the fact that I can't really get a bank account in Europe thanks to all the fucking regulations the US imposes on foreign banks that does absolutely nothing to stop tax evasion but does a great job of making it difficult for Americans to live overseas.
All that said, I got my children US citizenship when they were born, just for ease of travel since we go back every year. I didn't really think about the tax implications at the time, but if they don't want it they can renounce it when they get older.
When Putin's tanks roll across Belgium, you will be thankful in hindsight to have had registered your kids as american citizens, so they can get onto the "last helicopter leaving Saigon embassy".
Please keep in mind that Belgium is a tiny country, which was easily overrun in less than 48 hours, during the early days of both WWI and WW2. Its citizens are even more cowardly than the czech, they easily under stand both "Hande hoch!" and "Idi syuda! Davay chasy!" and comply. None of them will stand up to defend your kids or even let them fend for themselves. The whole nation will just surrender at the mercy of occupiers.
Anyhow, if your kids ever get into trouble abroad, anywhere in the world, in peace or war, Uncle Sam will come to their rescue, as long as they are US citizens. That includes the Army, Navy, Marines, Air Force, FBI, CIA, fed. marshalls. Good luck with the huge global reach of Sweden and Belgium, which countries probably have half as many embassies worldwide or even less, compared to the USA...
By the way, I would sacrifice a full inch from the lenght of my pride, plus pay whatever sum needed, if I could obtain US citizenship or even just permanent residence status, to be able to move into the Land of the Free in a legal way. I'm sure the large majority of the world's population is on the same though platform, with the coveted Green Card being a lifelong dream.
If you're a poor, yes. If you're a rich, you watch your money run down the drain to prop up the lazy, ignorant sector of society.
I'm not a US citizen (German, but living in Switzerland), but follow the debate somewhat from the sideline - half amused, half horrified.
I suggest you take a look at the archive of the Isaac Brooks Society for FATCA:
http://isaacbrocksociety.ca/ta...
And judge for yourself if this is what you want to "gift" to your children?
I have to live here for a another couple of years before I can seek citizenship - but given the dire situation most countries' financials are in, I doubt they would enact the same laws as the US regarding out-of-country taxation - if they could enforce it.
If you love your kids, don't give them a US passport. It will severly limit what they can do later in their life
As for visa-free travel, see this page:
http://www.ibtimes.com/best-pa...
Windows 2000 - from the guys who brought us edlin
If the kids can also keep their EU citizenship, it is worth it. I don't think there are any tax implications, maybe there are implications if you are a US citizen earning money overseas.
Even if you don't earn money overseas, for example if you stay in the UK without ever getting a job and living off benefits, you _still_ have to fill out your US tax forms, and if you don't and you ever dare going to the USA, you will be in deep trouble.
But then most US citizens living in Europe will at some point of their life try hard to earn money overseas.
Everybody run out and incorporate right now. Apparently it's cheap in Oregon. Then you can write everything off, declare losses, and pay no taxes just like the rich. They're apparently terrified that you're going to do this, why else double-downmod this innocuous comment?
Incorporate now if you want the same rights as your corporate masters, or at least a subset of them.
"You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
I missed applying for a German ID at the age of 16 which would've automatically made me a German citizen. I could've kept my amercian citizenship. I had to renunciate it when I wanted to become a German as a grown up. It's a bit of a shame I couldn't get my lazy teenage ass to go to the citizens bureau for 20 minutes to pick up my ID a few years earlyer. If I still were american, I'd have zero hassles entering the US whenever I want to.
I am glad to be German, Germany has quite a few upsides, especially these days. But it would be cooler to have both citizenships. No suprise here.
If you can get U.S. citizenship for your kids without needing to renunciate their other citizenship(s), by all means do it.
On the other hand, ditching a perfectly neat european citizenship for a U.S. citizenship is something I probalby wouldn't do.
Quite a few countries public don't allow for multiple citizenships, but in pratice they let them slip (who's going to find out anyway?). If you can sneak into a dual-citizenship for your children without to much of a legal risk, do it. Just tell them when they're grown up, and tell them not to advertise it at every occasion, especially not at US customs(!!!).
Ask other swedish/belian people in simular situations and try to find out how belgium/sweden handles dual citizenships and if there are any serious legal pitfalls.
Good luck.
We suffer more in our imagination than in reality. - Seneca
In the usa, these people become desperate, violent and become a burden to society, by imparting medical problems to the rest of the population.
In Sweden, they reside in their mothers basement and live in a virtual world, and become a burden on the medical system.
As a part of the employed population, I think I'd happily pay a small stipend (indirectly) to an unemployed person that eventually becomes a medical problem, rather than have them become poor, desperate, violent and impose a medical problem onto my life.
Going outside in the usa is like a negative lottery.
Love the front doors in the usa, by the way. Probably takes a tank to go through them.
Why would this person turn to /. for an answer?
That does not seem wise.
You have already identified the cost of ending American citizenship - $2300 and "a lot of paperwork". If the possible benefits outweigh the current cost to you (filing tax returns now and a future expense of $2300 and paperwork to renounce if you/they choose to do so) then go ahead and make/let them become citizens. If the possible benefits don't outweigh those costs, then don't do it.
If you do it, you can change your mind later. If you don't do it, you can't change your mind later. My personal choice would be to do it, bearing in mind the future expense of $2300 and paperwork per child. It keeps your options open for what seems to be a fairly low cost compared to the potential benefit.
There certainly wouldn't be any shame in renouncing citizenship in the future on the part of your kids, given that they hadn't had any choice in becoming citizens now. If they decide, upon reaching the age of majority, that they would rather not have that tie they can dissolve it for the cost you already mentioned (probably plus a little inflation). If you really want to cover them, invest $2300 per child in a fund now that will pay for their dissolution of American citizenship later. At their majority, hand the fund (with its accumulated earnings) over to them and let them make their decision. You will have protected the future option for them but preserved their ability to decide at no cost to them.
I would say no. The IRS is insane; anyone who's even had anything remotely to do with the US is on the hook for reporting to the IRS. Run away from this extra-territorial money grab.
I don't think US citizenship is any more valuable than citizenship in a Northern European country.
We are not your fallback plan in the event that things to to pot in Europe (yet again).
I am very small, utmostly microscopic.
At first I want to note something, I'm not part of the doom&gloom brigade and this is a personal decision about the personal identity.
If you ever can have dual citizenship, take it! Especially an european and an american!
Both are geographically seperated, offers different ways of life but also share a similiar culture. If everything "blows up" (war, economic crisises, legal troubles, surveillance) your children have the choice move to a other country immediately. If everythings "becomes nice" (peace, stable economy, environment protection, political union) you can live in a general social-system in europa or a more liberal economic-system.
Your childs will have twice the full rights, but remember also, the full duties of both.
But are tax forms such a burden, to dismiss the american citizenship? Ask your kids, before they become 18!
But I have seen a lot of males trying to criticize feminism while at the same time complaining that women are not being treated equally (like you) I hope you know that what you just asked is called feminism ?
No, I'm adult, thank you very much.
I was thinking along a similar line but my suggestion would be to wait until they are almost 18 (allowing plenty of time for the paperwork to go through). Find out as many of the pros and cons as you can and try to provide them with the most data to make an informed decision. Keep their options open as long as you can.
Time to offend someone
If you fail to register for the draft, you are ineligible for any sort of educational federal financial aid... you will have great difficulty ever obtaining federal employment
I'm sure the same could be said for Russia, China, and North Korea.
Also, there's FBAR - foreign bank account report. A US person must report any and all of their foreign accounts, even if they don't owe any taxes. Should you happen to forget that, the fine can be as high as the maximum value of each account - for every year that you forgot to file.
The US is doing quite well compared to Europe; Europe is imploding.
Proof yet again that there should be a "-5 factually incorrect and based on no evidence whatsoever" mod option.
To have a right to do a thing is not at all the same as to be right in doing it
You're lucky! Where I live, banks have realized that they can avoid the whole FATCA rigmarole by not accepting US persons as customers. You want a securities account? Great. Oh, you're a US person? Sorry.
This US person "disease" also spreads via power of attorney. You're not a US person, but your spouse is and you gave him or her power of attorney over your accounts? Well, you better revoke that or have your accounts cancelled.
If you want socialism, maybe you should move to sweden. Have fun with that 75% tax.
Yes, it's not like you get a decent education or healthcare or welfare system for your money, the government just blows it all on ludicrously expensive foreign wars.
Oh, wait...
To have a right to do a thing is not at all the same as to be right in doing it
The only advantage to being an American citizen is that it is somewhat easier to live and work in the U.S. if you ever want to. In all other cases, it has only disadvantages.
as an expat, i pay about $2500 a year in CPA fees to just declare that i owe nothing.
like DC, it's also taxation without representation, as expats have no representatives.
They also receive the gift of being obligated to pay US taxes.
Surprisingly, very few countries let you have all the benefits of being a citizen without requiring you to pay taxes for them. I hear they won't even let you have free healthcare in the UK if you're not a taxpaying UK citizen. Governments are so selfish.
SJW's don't eliminate discrimination. They just expropriate it for themselves.
hmm I Googled that (hadn't heard about it) and found this article.
Apparently a number of banks no longer serve American securities investors. So you are right in that if you want to evade taxes you now do need to smuggle out cash again like in the old days.
I don't think you'll have an issue getting a normal checking account. So for your everyday transactions there is no need to deal 'in piles of cash' You can pay by credit and debit card like the rest of us...
The article even states so: "Customers with normal checking or savings accounts in Germany are not affected, however."
But I'm glad someone is sticking up for the tax evaders.
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FATCA, the new rules meant to catch Americans hiding income offshore is forcing all manner of foreign financial institutions to register and report to the IRS. So your local bank in Belgium will likely decide it's not worth the hassle to deal with the forms and reporting for a US Citizen. They might not all have caught on to this, and if they don't have a parent company that does business with the US they might not bother, but certainly the laws are only going to get worse. So you granting them US Citizenship WILL make it harder for them to open a bank account, get a credit card or take out a loan. You really should consider that as well. Of course they're not going after something that will actually result in real income like carried interest for the truly well heeled. But mess with your kids' lives as collateral damage? Absolutely. I'm an American and I think it's the best place for me to live, but Belgium is sure nice to. But it'll harder to enjoy the great frites if you have the IRS spector haunting you.
Not everyone has what they want to do figured out at 16, but if they have a career goal in mind and think it might involve moving to the US then it probably makes sense.
You've kind of skipped the entire nightmare of FATCA which, unless you're quite poor, is a total fucking nightmare.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/F...
If you're not aware of this already and are obligated to but haven't been filing...try not to have a heart attack.
blindly antisocialist = antisocial
I sorta agree, but should remind you... we've been this bad before (leading up to great depression) and stood up and turned it around. Yes American is failing but, no, it doesn't have to.
Actually the taxes are a big problem. I work in Canada, and as a US citizen, few banks want to do business with me because of the reporting requirements imposed on foreign banks by the IRS.
Also, if both countries have the draft, you could become a felon in one while serving in the military of the other. Lastly, if your kids do serve, then as dual citizens they could be construed as "enemy combatants" not subject to the Geneva convention.
renouncing your citizenship is very expensive as all taxes come due immediately - that means any capital gains are due in cash NOW. The total bill from the IRS can be tens of thousands of dollars.
Honestly, and I say this as a naturalized US citizen who went through hell and high water to get a US passport, if your kids have no plans to use their US citizenship, then don't do it.
Exactly; when what you get back is so much more valuable, it is worth it. Still, as an American, it is easy to get cynical about taxes when they've been redirected to burden the poor and working classes the most, let the rich off scott free, buy very little medical care, roads that are usually in disrepair, bridges that are falling into rivers in rush hour traffic, law enforcement that's losing its war with its own conscience, a bloated and demonstrably less-than-effective military, etc etc etc. We've grown accustomed to getting much less than we pay for.
US citizenship, once something to be proud of, has, in other countries, become a severe liability and cause for expressions of discomfort in any dealings with the holders thereof.
You/your kids will have to pay taxes twice, including all the associated additional paperwork (significantly more expensive to prepare than a 'normal' return), the IRS will hound you for every dime not paid, banks...those of the country you live in...will refuse to provide you with accounts or any other dealings because you are from the US, a lot of US banks will refuse service to you because you *don't* live in the US, you will have zero privacy in your personal financial dealings on all fronts and so on.
I'd strongly advise you against getting citizenship for your kids!
While I am sympathetic to your point of view, I still disagree.
Europe is not magical. There is a significant homelessness problem in France, for example. The French unemployment rate has been higher than the USA unemployment rate for every single year since 1948. (Yes, there are differences in the way unemployment is calculated, but France has had higher unemployment even when statistics are correlated).
Taking your assertions one by one:
Since 2008, The USA has offered 53 weeks of full unemployment benefits when a person looses a job. That is actually quite generous even by European standards.
USA healthcare is not the "worst healthcare system in the world" by any measure. In 2000, the USA was rated 38th. Belgium was rated 21. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/W.... The USA has presumably improved since 2000 with more people covered by insurance etc.
USA crime rates are at historic lows. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/C...
"very little maternity leave, no paternity leave, a recent push for no sick time or vacation time (they lump it all together) and we also have the shortest amount of vacation time compared to all the modern countries. our corporations work the workers to death and then dispose of them, IF you can even GET a job in the US (h1b, yes! born here, sorry.)" ... The USA is composed of 50 states. Not all labor laws are at the federal level. Absence of laws does not mean absence of benefits. For example, I have 6 weeks of paid paternity leave, 5 weeks of paid vacation, and numerous other employment benefits that are not enshrined in law.
Why the fuck is this guy getting modded troll? Seriously people? Just because he isn't bashing the USA?
^This. The first few years I lived abroad I had a company sponsored tax accountant file for me. I was being paid in dollars, living in another country, ok I figured it was complex because of that. Now i have a local job and tried to file my taxes myself. Nothing fancy, no day trading or self employment. Just a middling tech job. When I tried to fill teh forms based on the older returrns, while I could follow what numbers went into which forms, figuring out which forms I would need was non trivial. I could not find any level of assurance that I was complying w/ the relevant statutes. So, back to 500$+ for a tax attorney. Even my 'simplified' returns are 80 pages. I call bullshit or non compliance on anybody who says this is easy.
tl;dr, US citizenship = 500$/year tax.
I did get my children US citizenship. The world will be a very uncertain place in the coming years. The US may get its shit together or it may not but I certainly see a subset of outcomes for this planet where hiding in the country w/ big guns will be advantageous.
Belgium man... just Belgium!
Besides all the tax reasons, your son will have to register for the draft once he turns 18 as an American citizen. Becoming a citizen here will greatly limit their options and put targets on their backs in many places in the world. It's not worth it. As an American citizen born overseas, I wish I had the option to give it up and leave but I don't.
Our conservatives are batshit insane from old-time-religion and living in a far-right-wing propaganda bubble, and want no part of modern civilization, but the US is hardly a failed state.
That old time religion teaches love, joy, peace, forbearance, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control. At the point that we consider that insane, we should take a strong look in the mirror and consider what type of propaganda you're consuming to derive such a view.
"Don't teach a man to fish, feed yourself. He's a grown man. Fishing's not that hard." - Ron Swanson
Why is this +5 insightful? The submitter said he was an American expat living overseas. You guys don't think he is already very familiar with US tax code?
Only the EU still uses its mechanism for peaceful expansion. The US has forgotten how to. Given your situation, I would not force US citizenship on your children. They can pursue it for themselves once they reach adulthood if they choose.
Because it may be your kids some day...
http://isaacbrocksociety.ca/2015/02/01/it-hurts-my-heart-on-renouncing-american-citizenship/
In all of the comments above the arguments for citizenship or no citizenship revolve around mostly economic issues. While it is clear from history that time, geography and citizenship are huge factors in determining opportunity and economic comfort these things are not the foundation of citizenship. For most citizenship is a happenstance of where and when an individual is born.
If your children choose US citizenship they are accepting the social, civic, political and economic realities of the US.
The real question is do your children identify with and believe in the US?
Do they think of themselves as Americans?
JDM20150306
Here's some detail on the problem with doing everyday banking when working overseas, from that notorious right-wing scare site, The Guardian:
http://www.theguardian.com/mon...
Given the current path we are taking why would you want to? I feel ashamed my child has to grow up a citizen of the US in it's current regression. I say regression as it's been heading this way for the last 20 years, this isn't something that's come overnight. People all over the place seem completely at ease with it, while I personally feel we are one step removed from black bag squads.
I am Bennett Haselton! I am Bennett Haselton!
I was born in the US, but also have a European citizenship, and have lived in Europe. I say absolutely get the citizenship. The tax implications only really become an issue if you're making enough money where you can pay someone to deal with it, and it opens up a ton of opportunities for them in the future. Hell, if you need to become a tax exile, $2300 is nothing.
I am acutely aware that the the US is far from perfect, but it is where my (European) wife & I have chosen to raise our kids. I'd say you'd regret not giving them the choice of living here easily in the future.
Have you not heard how the IRS is going after US citizens that have been living and working in foreign countries in some cases as dual citizens and in some cases they haven't set foot in the US in decades. Guess what Uncle Sam still gets his share of that money.
I am Bennett Haselton! I am Bennett Haselton!
Have you considered applying for British citizenship? With half a million immigrants last year, and even the ukip seemingly unable to do anything to stem the flow it seems to be a popular choice - everyone's doing it!
I wish I could get rid of my SS number.
Light travels faster than sound. This is why some people appear bright until you hear them speak.........
As an American, part of me is taken aback by the question, because I am idealistic and feel like being American should be more than the annoyances of filing takes and such. Of course, I can't say that everyone has to interpret the meaning of citizenship in the same way as I do, but I feel like what I want this country to mean for its people is more than what benefits it provides, but what we can do for others. We may not like the political climate right now or the way in which the government does things, but the democratic ideal should be more than just the procedural function of majority rule and incorporate a culture, a spirit, an attitude of mutual cooperation and willingness to be a part of a society that can do a lot of good in the world. Again, I know that the USA falls short of the ideals set for it. However, I am hopeful that there is something good at the basis of the American idea that can lead to a positive future. So I think that when considering whether to have your children become citizens, you should ponder the responsibilities involved not merely from a practical and economic standpoint (which, I recognize, is not unimportant), but from the standpoint of whether your children might want to be a part of shaping the future of this country both politically and socially. Maybe they can bring a much needed perspective to the democratic process, and maybe they can give a positive contribution to what being an American means in the future. Of course, this will mean sacrifice and labor, but maybe they will be willing to pay the price in order to be a part of this society. Becoming an American citizen can be more than a privilege or a burden: it can be a service for others.
Incipiamus, fratres, servire Domino Deo, quia hucusque vix vel parum in nullo profecimus.
By the time the children are grown Europe will be Muslim (because they're out-breeding your native populations). In the same time span the US will be a Spanish-speaking third world country or a tightly controlled police state. It's a losing proposition either way.
Best bet is to go find a small isolated island with no inhabitants and call it your home. It's a shame we don't have any space colonies to escape to yet.
Good article. Although even that article states that they could still get checking accounts (at some banks).
To me it seems a lot of banks simply chose not to go through the trouble for a limited amount of customers. That's not OK, as that limits your choices. But largely the banks doing. And that's no surprise to me.
It does also seem to me the law is too draconian. I still however see no need to have piles of cash.
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They won't have to file until past the age of 18 (more than likely) and can renounce their citizenships at anytime should they decide to (at an age where they are capable). Why not?
Sure, the new part of the old-time religion teaches that stuff, but unfortunately the old-time version of it heavily emphasizes brutal repression, and some of the addenda to the new stuff was clearly written to repeal the actually innovations in the new part, to which you are referring. In practice, the old-time religion OP is referring to does not teach peace, love, joy, forbearance, kindness, or any of that stuff. It teaches war, paranoia, retribution and selfishness. It's almost as if the antichrist had taken over large parts of the church in the U.S. Actually, it's just as if that had happened. :(
"The only way around it is to find the one sherrif's office in the country who considers a signed affadavit to be sufficient to wed (all of the others disagree)."
That sounds more like an Icelandic problem than anything. If Iceland doesn't accept another country's designated paperwork then how is that a US problem?
It's a bit like going to a country that doesn't allow gay marriage, trying to arrange a gay marriage, having it refused, and then blaming your home country rather than the country that refused it. The US has a procedure for getting the necessary documentation to act as proof of being free to marry and that's to gain that affidavit which you can do at the embassy, or via a US lawyer, it's not preventing you getting married, Iceland's bureaucrats are.
The US can't control what other countries do and don't accept, and nor should it. Similarly the US shouldn't have to change it's legal framework because one of the smallest and most unimportant countries in the world is being difficult to someone about something - especially when most other countries have no problem with the US affidavit.
The Euro is imploding...not Europe. I am sure they will pull themselves out of their economic slump and be fine. I figure European countries are a better model...the US is only 350 years old...most of the European countries have survived over a millenia.
I'm an American, and have 3 kids. Don't saddle your's w/ debt my parent's spent and my children will have to pay.
Save them the trouble, Sweden's a fine country.
You've outlined the pros and cons pretty well - the cons are all financial and concrete ... the pros are emotional and insubstantial.
Your Belgian children (Flemish?) have no ties to the US of A - they won't feel that connection simply because they are citizens of a country they've never been to.
Reason why there is hope for the future generation #364:
"I wish my grass was emo so it could cut itself."
Being a European citizen has advantages too: Article 23 of the TFEU gives the right to any unrepresented EU citizen to obtain assistance from another Member State's consular services under the same conditions that the Member State providing the assistance would give its own citizens.
(http://eeas.europa.eu/crisis-response/what-we-do/consular/index_en.htm)
Re selective service registration: Only American males need do this. It can be done online (a few seconds, very easy) and need not be done on their 18th birthday... In fact can be done years later, if ever.... probably only if you need college financial aid. There really is no penalty or legal enforcement. Also being registered does not mean you will automatically be drafted... especially since there is no draft.... and there are alternate forms of service anyway.
My case was similar to yours: my wife and I are from different countries and for work reasons we had to move to the U.S. while my wife was pregnant so our child was born there. Yes there's some paperwork but really it's mostly irrelevant since we only dig up that passport when entering the usa. And he has the right to live and work in lots of places when he grows up. Who knows what the world will look like in 50 years? It might be handy.
Inside the shadowy world of birth tourism at ‘maternity hotels’ - The Washington Post
"In luxury apartment complexes in Southern California and in grand, single-family homes in New York, “maternity hotels” are brimming with pregnant women and cooing newborn babies.
For wealthy foreign women, the facilities offer the promise of a comfortable, worry-free vacation complete with a major perk: a U.S. passport for their newborn."
Maybe they should have a friendly talk with the IRS...
In the long run we are all dead. - John Maynard Keynes (1883 - 1946)
"As stated by the parent they can always renounce citizenship later and avoid the tax and selective service issues, but this is expensive (about $2500USD)."
I guess that depends on whether you ever want to return to the US. If it was up to a country whether you were a citizen or not countries could state arbitrarily claiming people were citizens and that their laws applied to them, which would obviously be stupid and cause all sorts of drama.
It's part of the universal declaration of human rights that you can renounce or change citizenship, (though a state can't legally force you to become stateless under international law, even though some have in practice).
I suspect the worst they could do is try and charge you if you went back to the US. If you were in any European nation for example the European Court of Human Rights would have to uphold the law as they're bound by the ECHR and prevent any member state from allowing the US to apply penalties to you as if you were a citizen - what the US thinks you are would be irrelevant at that point, because if you were willing to testify to the court that you were no longer a citizen then the US couldn't do jack shit unless it could prove you'd made such a testament under duress and did really want to retain citizenship.
So ultimately it depends on your reasons for renouncing I guess. If you're pissed off and never want to go back I can't see how you could be forced to pay anything, but if you want to leave open the door to visit or return their and perhaps try and obtain citizenship once again one day then it probably makes sense to pay it.
You are insinuating that the Chinese government are sending infiltrators in a long game to influence American elections but you're completely wrong about that. The rich Chinese people are having kids in the United States as a Plan B if China decides to kill everyone when the political winds change.
Let me explain. In China, almost every way of making big money is technically illegal. The government owns all the land, and the means of production are owned by the government or government oligarchs. The rich got that way by breaking laws, and bribing the right people. Once in a while, there are political changes. New people are installed; older ones fall out. Then when there's a consolidation of power, the laws are suddenly enforced against you. That means that the disfavored are facing long jail terms or even execution.
http://blogs.reuters.com/nader...
You have Chinese nationals buying real estate in the United States and European countries as a Plan B. Their kids are raised outside Chinese, if they can afford it, to make sure that they don't get ensnared in any uprisings. If things go wrong, then you can escape with your life to the United States.
A NYC lawyer blogs. http://www.chuangblog.com/
Some countries get difficult about using different passports anyway so it makes a lot of sense to just stick to one regardless. My partner has Canadian and British passports and got a telling off from Canadian customs once when she left on her British passport and entered again on her Canadian when we went back once.
Apparently it fucks up their ability to track who has left the country and who hasn't and they don't like that.
Only the US and Ethiopia require ex-pat citizens to pay tax on foreign income.
Ok how about you just be a citizen of the country you intend to live in? Unless you plan to participate in the US political process, and help try to make the country better, I'd really rather you not pretend you are a citizen just to have a passport.
With regards to all the discussion of the IRS, unless you are really making money this is not going to be a problem. I had a friend live in China for 20 years, never did taxes, the IRS left him alone. He moved back to USA a few months ago and filed a few papers, that was it. All this talk about the IRS is just paranoid fantasy from the anti gov't horde that seems to dominate discussion lately.
Surprisingly, very few countries let you have all the benefits of being a citizen without requiring you to pay taxes for them. I hear they won't even let you have free healthcare in the UK if you're not a taxpaying UK citizen. Governments are so selfish.
I don't know about the business with denying free healthcare in the UK, although it sounds as though that could violate EU laws. I would expect an EU citizen living - and paying taxes - in the UK to have access to the same benefits as UK citizens there. I am a citizen of one EU country and live in another. I pay my taxes where I live, and to the tax-authorities here. The country I am a citizen of does not get to see any of this.
My personal standpoint is that the hassles associated with the IRS are sufficient reason to avoid US citizenship, unless the child in question plans to live in the US at some point.
Mielipiteet omiani - Opinions personal, facts suspect.
This is all about whether an EU citizen should also wish to be a citizen of the US, it is not about Central America or Mexico. I have EU citizenship and have absolutely no intention of going to the US for any purpose other than tourism, something I have not bothered with for 13 years now.
I know some US citizens here who are trying to find ways of making their stay here long-term. Just anecdotal evidence, I have no idea how many people are affected or how difficult it is for them to stay.
Mielipiteet omiani - Opinions personal, facts suspect.
The US tax code for expats is presently highly problematic. There is good cause to have little faith in near term remedy. The decision on citizenship is considerably long term. My dad gave me advice as a teenager that has been the most valuable guiding light in my life: in whatever decisions you make, tend towards solutions that open more doors of future opportunity than they close. Us citizenship doesn't really limit opportunities, but it certainly has present day liabilities. Renouncing citizenship is a relatively inexpensive option. Gaining citizenship is considerably more expensive.
Obligatory The Newsroom opening sequence
I think every U.S. politician should watch this at least once a week, both during session and during their fundraising runs.
Returning to the topic, it sounds like you have until they turn 18 to make that decision. By then, they can consider all the pros and cons and make their own decision, right?
AFAIK IANAL dual citizenships aren't legal(or maybe not legally recognized would be more correct?) in the US to begin with. I think that it's along the lines of if you don't bring it to any official attention they'll ignore it IF they know about it, but better just not to mention it to begin with although I believe that would require perjury on any citizenship documents.
That said US citizenship should make things much easier should they wish to go to the US, and if they were to go to say university in the US it would DEFINITELY make things MUCH easier, especially things like gaming residency requirements. i.e. in most state it's ~6m to gain residency status and I've known people who game that to get resident tuition rates v. non-resident.
Taxes: erm no they won't as long as they live in high tax states with reciprocal tax agreements(most western nations, Japan, etc.). Hell even citizens living/working in Canada I don't know of any that have to pay any US taxes, just file, as Canadian tax rates are INSANELY HIGH if you're more than a gimp, i.e. they're already paying so much in canadian taxes that it eliminates whatever they may have theoretically owed in the US, I think thaty it falls under "foreign tax credit" IIRC. And we won't even talk about GST/PST...
I knew a couple just over 20 years ago who wanted to get married. They went to the German authorities to see what hoops had to be jumped through and he described what came next. He had Canadian and US citizenship (I think) and she was German.
So then they tried Plan B.
He rang the equivalent office in Denmark. They had one question: When do you want to come around?. They got married in Denmark. The marriage was just as "legal" as though it had taken place in Germany.
Mielipiteet omiani - Opinions personal, facts suspect.
We've never had any problem, but we don't move money around beyond buying a piece of property or building a house. We just leave our money in US accounts and withdraw it wherever we are. For sending money to family we just leave one of our ATM cards with my brother-in-law, and he does the withdrawals for us. $3 per withdrawal, plus another $1.50 fee from his bank, and happens instantly. (We used to do money transfers, which cost $40, plus $10 in Peru, plus 1% of the amount withdrawn, and would take anywhere from 4 days to 4 weeks to arrive.)
"Think about how stupid the average person is. Now, realise that half of them are dumber than that." - George Carlin
Hi houghi!
Have not heard from you in a long time (I frequent your old Usenet stamping ground).
Glad to see that you are ok.
Mielipiteet omiani - Opinions personal, facts suspect.
because there are too many of those already and look how they behave when in Europe.
Pain is merely failure leaving the body
Why would you EVER want to punish your kids like that? I tell you what, you trade me your kids Euro citizenship for my US citizenship, ok?
Don't come to this shit hole country, only Mexicans, south Americans, and other people from crap hole countries WANT to be a US citizen. People from countries that are way better off should never want to come here. If it's the last thing I do, I will find a way to become a Euro citizen before I die... hopefully.
The USA charges its citizens for evacuation, unlike all other countries in the world who also evacuate their citizens from trouble zones ..... for free.
These costs have bankrupted people in the past, leaving them wishing they had not been "rescued".
US citizens are becoming systematically toxic and are treated like shit as a result, especially by the financial system. FATCA is a completely insane law and has resulted in banks around the world terminating accounts and refusing to make loans just because someone is a US citizen or has a green card. And unfortunately what many don't realise is you cannot get out of US citizenship just by paying a few thousand dollars as the summary suggests. There is a crippling exit tax that forces you to pay tax on the assumption you just sold all your assets. It's a form of capital control, except one you cannot escape from due to the long arm of the US government. Even better, USA can decide that the citizenship revocation is invalid if they think it was done for tax reasons. They can just keep forcing you to pay taxes forever, if they want to. It's basically modern slavery.
My advice to the story submitter - don't do it!!. US citizenship is already dramatically worse than citizenships in other civilised countries and it's getting worse every year. In fact it's akin to a form of slavery. US citizens abroad have no functioning representation in Congress and they are routinely exploited as a result, citizenship based taxation being only one example.
Swedish and Belgian citizenship together is a perfect combination! Why would you want anything more?
Unfortunately the amount is fixed in dollar terms and does not automatically adjust for inflation. When that exemption was set it was considered a large amount. However currently it's $97,000. The dollar is not an especially strong currency. That's about 60k GBP+. You can earn more than that just by being a decent computer programmer in London. And of course the OPs kids don't have to worry about the threshold today but rather in 20 years. There is zero incentive for Congress to be lenient here because now they have FATCA they can actually collect tax from anywhere in the world - it's taxation without representation which is ideal for them.
absolutely! I would like to gain dual citizenship with Canada. I wouldn't give up my US citizenship, but I'd like to have dual. It provides more options, and US citizenship is a good thing to have in general in today's world. It opens up work markets, that can otherwise be hard to open. maintaining an EU memberhsip is good for those same reaosns.
Speaking as if you were my parent I would advise against it. America is forever becoming more convoluted and troublesome to live in and comply with. They can cross the bridge when they come to it years down the road if need be.
Only on income above $90,000. Above that, there are incorporation models that can help. Also, it's entirely possible that will change in the future. Not getting citizenship based on that seems counterproductive.
Why? Global taxation is terrible!!! If your child is millionaire he will have taxes from both countries
Don't do it!
They can still go to school and get jobs in America without citizenship!
350? The U.S. is 238.
They will lose the ability to do meaningful banking in countries that have signed FATCA-treaties with the US.
They'll have to submit FBARs.
etc...
Citizenship can be renounced at any time. Of, in the future, the child wishes to sell a house but does not want to pay capital gains tax and wishes they were not a US citizen, they can address the issue then. Using that alone as a reason to not apply for citizenship in the first place is not rational.
Most of Europe would be 70 years old, and speaking German (twice over), if not for your younger brother.
Where did the president of your country go last time he got sick?
There are many metrics to measure health care quality. To make the USA's bad you have to overemphasize equality and ignore things like average survival after diagnosis.
John McAfee 'It was like that time I hired that Bangkok prostitute; to do my taxes, while I fucked my accountant'
Just came back from living in Ireland for 10 years, and taxes can be a pain, but they were a pain in the US too.
Had a tax preparer for 600 Euros that handled it all, just had to fill in his spreadsheet with our expenses, bank details, and the expenditures on your house in the US.
He filled it all out and emailed it off. job done.
Back in the US I paid $150 for the same service.
But many Americans in Ireland, just sent in a 1040, or not at all (never had intentions to return to the US).
Also had a US friend who had never filed for several years, who then started work for Google and had to get his taxes in order.
The IRS just required him to show his Irish tax returns for the last several years, and told him not to do that again, esp. since with Ireland after living expenses it would be hard to exceed the $90000 limit
I am not sure if the taxation issue is actually accurate. I know it is required to report income to both places if you had income within the same calendar year in both places, but other than that I don't think a US citizen is required to pay federal taxes when leaving exclusively abroad. My suggestion is to prepare and keep all paperwork that clearly identifies you as being a parent of your children (copy of your US passport, birth certificates listing you as parent, etc). That will allow your children to file for US citizenship at any time in their life if it seems like a good idea. It is not a yes/no issue, more one of now or later and you decide / your children decide. The benefits of having US citizenship is that of having it easier to take residence anywhere in the US and get perks such as in-state tuition at a university (depends on the state, some give it to anyone who is a legal state resident no matter what the citizenship is, the rules vary). As far as registering for the draft is concerned, just don't bother with it. I know of plenty who have not done so and did not encounter any issues. Might be a legal requirement, but one that is unenforceable especially when living abroad. Other than that traveling to places might be easier on a US passport, but I am sure there isn't much difference to a Belgian passport. In cases of emergency the embassies will assist in getting the citizens out. So if Belgium would plunge into a bitter civil war then the US embassy would see that they get you and your family out of that place. Yes, an unlikely scenario, just meant as example. There are also other factors such as being able to get employment with a US company where security clearance is required (rather difficult to get for non-citizens, not impossible though) or anything that has to do with social benefits. Yes, I know, if you are in a crunch and need assistance Belgium or Sweden are by far the better options than the US. In my case it is the other way around. My wife is a US citizen, I am German, and my children have both, but I did not renew their German passport after it expired out of cost reasons (freakishly expensive and requires a long trip to the consulate with overnight stay). The expired passport is proof enough that they are German citizens for what it might be worth (such as excellent universities and no tuition!!!!). There is now also a record in the system and even if they no longer have the expired passport it will be rather easy for them to obtain legal documents. In my opinion it is great to have as many citizenships as possible, ye never know what happens in years from now.
In this case the kids are also Belgian citizens...they just would have to not mention that they have US citizenship.
The printing presses are already scheduled to run the bearings out of them. It's called the SS trust fund.
It's not just that they have spent all the money, they have run up a huge debt. Our only hope at this point is another currency going POP (I'm looking at you Pound, you too Euro) and capital flight gives us enough time to non-disastrously inflate our way out.
John McAfee 'It was like that time I hired that Bangkok prostitute; to do my taxes, while I fucked my accountant'
You can fly non-stop Paris to Toronto (I have such a flight booked for June) but your point is still valid. Given the situation you described a person would have to avoid all US airport transits.
You can rant all you like, but the US can easily seize your assets by putting pressure on the foreign bank where you have them stored.
Any bank of any size will have international operations in the US which are much more valuable to them than you are.
US government threatens bank, bank caves. Every time.
"Patriotism is your conviction that this country is superior to all other countries because you were born in it." -- GBS
Your unreadable post only uses capital letters for words that are entirely capitalized. It's completely invalid based on that alone.
The two complete sentences in parenthesis confirmed what I suspected from the first, you're one of those python assholes.
If you have enough assets/income to worry about, you can probably afford a tax attorney, or at least an accountant who specializes in such situation. They are not terribly expensive (the people I know with oddball business situations pay a specialist accountant about $100/year to handle their taxes).
~REZ~ #43301. Who'd fake being me anyway?
America is not a place where anyone should live anymore. What used to be a free and democratic society is now a steaming pile of shit run by a ruling class that crushes any opposition to its policy. I would stay as far away from America as possible. They are a cancer that is slowly murdering the very principles its trying to convince everyone it wants to uphold.
The truth is there are very few benefits to having American citizenship - but there are plenty of drawbacks. Not the least of which is the US love for invading countries to control or outright steal their natural resources and paying for it out of your pockets, and with your blood.
BeauHD. Worst editor since kdawson.
In fact, the USA is the only significant country that taxes based on citizenship rather than residence.
Pretty much no other country taxes its citizens when they are living outside that country in the long term. Only the USA does.
For this reason American dual citizens and expats are at a serious disadvantage in the international job and investment market.
"Patriotism is your conviction that this country is superior to all other countries because you were born in it." -- GBS
US consular assistance is pretty worthless. They do the bare minimum and charge up the ass for everything else.
As a dual US-EU citizen, I never travel on my US passport or deal with the US overseas when I can help it, because it's a waste of time.
Also, as a EU citizen, I have the benefit of recourse to consular services from any other EU nation if mine isn't available.
The US isn't the only country that evacuates its citizens, but as far as I know it's the only one that will send you a bill afterwards. I'd much rather be evacuated by the French, for example, who have a far stronger record in overseas citizen protection.
"Patriotism is your conviction that this country is superior to all other countries because you were born in it." -- GBS
Exactly. Even if they never once set foot in the US, this will cause all sorts of problems for them whenever they try to deal with any European or other overseas financial institutions. They're going to have trouble setting up so much as a current account. Ask any US expat.
This will only get worse as the US gov't becomes increasingly indebted and desperate for money, thrashing around to invent new and creative ways to tax its unlucky subjects and harass those who they suspect may be trying to escape their grasp by living or banking or investing overseas.
That's to say nothing about the draft, which is simply slavery by another name. Why on Cthulhu's green earth would you inflict any of this on your children? The Land of the Free is, sadly, no more.
While I agree with the gist of your posting, the dollar is in fact the strongest major currency in the world at the moment, with the possible exception of the Swiss franc.
"Patriotism is your conviction that this country is superior to all other countries because you were born in it." -- GBS
If you were married at the time of your son's birth, then he was a US citizen regardless of what forms you did or did not fill out. There was nothing you could do about it. So don't feel too badly.
"Patriotism is your conviction that this country is superior to all other countries because you were born in it." -- GBS
With US Citizenship-Based Taxation, no one, NO ONE, should ever be entrapped into its consequences, especially someone who has and has never had any connection to the US. It should be a CHOICE / a CLAIM by the person involved to make such a claim knowing all of the benefits as well as the consequences. If there is NO CLAIM, that US citizenship which has all of the US Citizenship-Based Taxation consequences should be NULL & VOID. That just makes common and moral sense to me. Can it not make sense to the USA lawmakers? Will the Senate Finance Committee tell me why anyone with a *mental incapacity* should be entrapped into such a toxic situation?
IF a guardian/trustee can act on a naturalisation for a mentally disabled person to become a USC then it makes equal sense for a guardian/trustee to undo same.
contrary to what I have been told by Department of State, Legal and similar advice by a Washington, DC immigration / nationality lawyer:
Here is the advice I got from US Department of State, Legal: http://isaacbrocksociety.ca/2014/06/01/its-time/comment-page-72/#comment-3097016
From: Kavaler, Howard
Sent: Wednesday, May 07, 2014 9:55 AM
Subject: RE: Question re US Citizenship never registered with the US
If your son was born in Canada to two U.S. citizens, at least one of whom had a residence in the United States prior to his birth, your son is a U.S. citizen pursuant to Section 301(c) of the Immigration and Nationality Act. Your understanding of U.S. citizenship law is absolutely correct. U.S. citizenship is a status that is personal to the U.S. citizen and may not be renounced by a parent or a legal guardian. If your son seeks to renounce his citizenship, it will be incumbent upon him to demonstrate that (a) his action in renouncing his U.S. citizenship is the product of his own free will and (b) that he fully understands the consequences attendant to the relinquishment of his U.S. citizenship.
which agrees with the information from an immigration / nationality lawyer in Washington, DC, to confirm this son’s US status and give possibilities for his renunciation. The result was that her children were US citizens from the moment of their births. The following is information from that lawyer based on his conversations with the US Department of State:
DOS persons have “sympathy” for such cases. However, the developmentally disabled person will have to have FULL understanding of what he’s doing; if any question of lack of comprehension and grasping meaning and importance of ramifications, they could NOT approve such a case. From DOS point of view, US citizenship is precious and they have therefore established fundamental requirements for “compelling reason”. Even though there is the risk that a person’s financial resources could run out before his/her life was over, they will never approve a renunciation for financial / economic reasons. DOS has NEVER had such a renunciation case approved due to “compelling circumstances”. Said I could sue but persons he talked with at DOS are SURE no one would ever win such a case as the courts view the discretionary action that DOS has would take precedence.
Am I just a hard-headed old lady who is disregarded or will the Senate Finance Committee take this egregious collateral damage into account? No one, NO ONE, should have to work around this problem. The problem should be resolved with just law that will affect anyone with some mental incapacity.
If the US cannot change to Residence-Based Taxation to fix this, then at least do something about anyone ever being entrapped into the consequences of US citizenship-based taxation.
PLEASE! ...and to all: Let the person, your child, make his or her own choice when of age and of requisite mental capacity!
The US position on dual citizenships is generally to ignore them. So as far as the US government was concerned these kids would be solely American. They wouldn't get in trouble or anything.
"Patriotism is your conviction that this country is superior to all other countries because you were born in it." -- GBS
This is why Canadians working in the U.S. for part of the year have to be able to document the number of days they stayed there. If they're in the U.S. for more than 183 days, they're considered a U.S. resident and don't owe Canadian taxes.
My girlfriend is a Canadian citizen and pays Canadian (and US) income taxes despite being a full time US resident for greater than 20 years. Also, our daughter, having been born to a Canadian citizen and having not renounced Canadian citizenship also pays income taxes to both Canada and the US.
Don't try to out wierd me, three-eyes. I get stranger things than you, free with my breakfast cereal. --Zaphod Beeblebr
As I understand it, if you are an American Citizen, your children are also. They will actually have to apply NOT to be a US citizen if they choose otherwise in a process known as expatriation.i suggest contacting the U.S. consulate.
My wife and I am are European passport holders. Being in the computer industry I ended up in the US for a 2 week contract and ended up staying. Being self employed and running a small company I could not go through the H1B system and spent 12 years getting a Green Card. My kids are dual nationals and have US citizenship. We intend for them to go to University in Europe if for no reason other than learning that there are other cultures out there, but I think for undergraduate work UK universities provide a better more cost effective option than US universities.
Given the opportunities that working in the US offers and having the option to work in both the US and EU has been a great advantage to us. I think all the tax issues and paperwork is a small hassle compared to the long term advantages. I had friends who came over from Europe with me and because they had Green Cards or had US passports got much better opportunities when no one would for example sponsor their H1B's or other visa related stuff.
All the comments about the total lifetime cost, hassle factor and what if when they are old in my view are just too much worry about nothing. In life opportunity trumps everything, if you spend all your life wondering if something is the right thing todo or not you will do nothing !
In my view you have no dilemma you just need to go and get their paperwork sorted out and be done with it.
What they lose is once adults they must file and pay taxes to the IRS every year of their lives even if they NEVER LIVE IN US TERRITORY.
There is a lot of bad info here. I'm a tax practitioner. It should not be a big problem for the average EU person. Here is the current US law on foreign income for US citizens:
Foreign Earned Income Exclusion - 911
Worldwide income of a U.S. citizen is subject to U.S. tax. In addition, a foreign coun-try can tax foreign income. Without any relief, the income could be subjected to dou-ble taxation. The Code provides two relief provisions:
(1) The foreign tax credit, which allows a taxpayer to claim a credit against U.S. taxes for foreign taxes paid, and
(2) The foreign earned income exclusion, which allows a taxpayer to exclude for-eign earned income.
Foreign earned income is compensation from personal services rendered in a foreign country during periods while the bona fide residence or 330-day test is satisfied. Sec-tion 911 requires that the bona fide resident status must be for an uninterrupted period that includes a full year.
The exclusion is limited to $99,200 (in 2014) per year. If a husband and wife both qualify for the foreign earned income exclusion, each has a separate exclusion availa-ble, and community property rules do not apply.
Note: If the foreign earned income exclusion is elected, the foreign tax credit cannot be claimed for the foreign tax allocated to the excluded income.
It is much harder to give up the citizenship and try afterwards - if wanted - to re-enter the US (besides all the tax issues) then it is as a European citizen to travel to the US and get work visa's or Greencards and apply for citizenship later if there is real interest.
I would definitely not have them get the citizenship now if there is no very safe assumption that they will permanently live in the US (I'm not talking about studying or internships, visa are easy for that).
You should definitely do this as it provides them an opportunity that will no longer be there once they are adults and working and able to understand the consequences properly.
And if they decide they don't want to be an American citizen later, they can renounce it.
I don't think it's going to be a bright century this side of the Pond. Europe may look messy now, but they are dealing with their problems in the open while the USA keep kicking them down the road for the next gen.
But if they renounce Citizenship for tax purposes, they still have to pay tax -- "P.L. 104-191 contains changes in the taxation of U.S. nationals who renounce or otherwise lose U.S. nationality. In general, any person who lost U.S. nationality within 10 years immediately preceding the close of the taxable year, whose principle purpose in losing nationality was to avoid taxation, will be subject to continued taxation." http://travel.state.gov/conten...
Don't abuse citizenship. Get citizenship where they grew up, Belgium. Citizenship should not be a choose your own adventure. They are not American by any stretch. Why not apply for UK citizenship while you are at it? UK offers better protection to private citizens and better colleges anyways. Oh, and get Easter island citizenship while you are at it in case they want to retire to an island paradise.
It's quite true that you didn't need an SSN to be a claimed kid until the mid-80's. (I didn't have an SSN until I was eight.) But the GP said that his boss's parents DID get a "Tax ID" for the boss, which has never been available to citizens.
Interestingly, you don't have to have an SSN to get a Passport (the application form explicitly states this). I have no idea if the State Dept. relays lists of citizens that don't have an SSN to the IRS so they can be on the watch for foreign income.
It has some logic behind it.
A failed state doesn't have the resources to waste on the suffering, so euthanasia, and eventually enforced euthanasia, becomes a valid option.
SJW: a person who perceives an injustice, and while correcting it, commits a greater injustice.
OK, fine.
I'll take your "average survival after diagnosis" and slap you with "average life expectancy".
Hint: the USA are dead last.
I rest my case, your honor.
The right to offend is far more important than the right not to be offended. (Rowan Atkinson)
Also, have a look at the possible fines for violating FBAR requirements. It's crazy stuff.
America really still requires marriage? You don't have registry offices then? Has to be done in a church even if you're an atheist?
Or ask your children - and then do the opposite. What do they know, anyway? ;^)
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Optionality is nice to have, it is true. But the question is at what cost? Consider something so simple as inheritance- in many places in Europe it is taxed mildly, or not at all. But the U.S. taxes it heavily. Consider taxes on US citizens abroad- today they may be a nuisance, tomorrow they may be a significant burden. Today it is easy to renounce citizenship, while authorities may make it very difficult tomorrow.
I was born in the US and went to school there, but I moved back to Europe as an adult (European parents) and renounced my US citizenship in 2014. Why? Because on the one hand I would have a somewhat easier time of things IF I ever wanted to return, but on the other hand the cost for this marginal benefit is potentially monstrous. There is no democratic representation for Americans living abroad, there are no Congressmen dedicated to their interests, and no Political Action Committees. You are helpless. Your only defense is to renounce. In advance. While you still can. And as for your kids... Well, I think you can figure that one out on your own.
Oh and in case you are worried about denying your kids something great, just bear in mind that study visas are pretty easy to get, and even green cards are obtainable for those who are patient and willing to go through the motions.
Yeah, at least if he isn't a citizen he might be able to get a job in the US by applying as an outsourced worker...
So many issues not worth the time.
But, if you want to trade I'll live in Sweden and you can live here!
That's if you have the winning numbers.
US citizen living in Sweden with Swedish wife and children. Consider the tax issue, which is awful, and then consider FATCA, which is probably illegal, and now ask yourself: Will the American public ever understand the life your children lead? Will those in power listen to expats and try to make reasonable decisions about them? I believe not. Your children will be a voiceless minority, blamed for being un-American, and at the mercy of Washington. The reach of the US Federal government is staggering, and I would not be surprised if things get much, much worse for expats before they get better. If ever. The US is going to need vast sums of money in the not too distant future, and unfortunately they will be able to extract it by passing insane laws that trap your children for life.
Now your just making bullshit up. Dead last? You can't even make up a plausible lie.
John McAfee 'It was like that time I hired that Bangkok prostitute; to do my taxes, while I fucked my accountant'
I'm a German citizen, currently working in the US on a greencard. Other people here have already pointed out that the additional tax declaration will be a MAJOR time and money sink each and every year, even where there is nothing to declare. And given even the slightest complexity with retirement accounts, social benefits or investment or brokerage accounts turns this into a minefield that lead to sleepless nights.
Now, even worse, the US reporting obligations to non-US banks (FATCA) will make financial life in a foreign country close to impossible. When I communicated my US address and tax status to my German bank, they immediately notified me that they will have to terminate our business relationship as compliance to US tax law is too complex and too expensive for them. I searched around and contacted dozens of banks, but no German banks are willing to take in US residents. Even if you end up finding one to give you a checking account, it'll be close to impossible to set up any private retirement accounts, left alone brokerage accounts. In sum, your kids will be excluded from "regular" financial life as known by their peers and they will have to constantly navigate through that complexity, possibly facing jail time for the slightest misstep.
From what I read, you have until sometime before their 18th birthday. Seems like they could review the information and decide for themselves well before then. And your personal circumstances may change. I've always been in favor of dual citizenship just in case something goes very wrong in the country you are in. However,my own kid had the possibility of dual Israeli - American citizenship. He decided against it when he was 17.
It's much different if you're trying to live your life in a foreign country. You can't get your non-USD salary direct deposited to Chase. You need a local bank, and you need one which is willing to deal with the IRS. This account needs to be reported to the IRS. At one point quite a few Canadians were actually being told that half their Canadian retirement accounts were US Government property because they spent a lot of time in the states (and were thus "American persons" according to the IRS) and hadn't reported those accounts to the IRS every year.
The Canadian government has managed to negotiate an end to that particular stupid thing, but everything's still a huge pain in the ass.
If there isn't a pressing need to do this right now, why not wait until they are older, say 16, and let them make the decision themselves? If they were born in Belgium then they may not have a strong urge to have American citizenship, particularly if they haven't lived there.
YES; American Citizenship is worth till http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Triffin_dilemma is resolved;
Casteism
As if you asked Africa, you lose your lives.
Give your kids the option to choose their own path in their future. I would say that it is harder to aquire a citizenship later on, than it is to move out of the same.
My son has a similar situation, and we choose to enable him to make that choice in the future.
I also know some people that have regretted not giving their children an available extra citizenship when they had the chance.
Keep their options open. The tax thing won't be an issue unless they have income that qualifies. Most European countries have tax regimes (and much better service as a result) that leave little room for the US to claim any money.
Only boring people are ever bored.
Indeed, even a stopped clock is right once or twice a day.
Il n'y a pas de Planet B.
"Ask an attorney". Why would you submit your kids to a government where you need legal assistance for a basic question? Or where you often need professional help just to do your taxes.
We very obviously have a terrible education system. You could not figure out how to use one capital letter correctly. Furthermore, you randomly spattered commas around while ignoring all use cases for the time-honored period. Relevant to your rant, there is an old idiom regarding stones that are hurled inside of glass houses. You should Google it.
If you intend to return to a life in the US, and you want your child to be a part of it, then do it, otherwise don't. I am a US citizen and permanent resident in the EU and have a son with an EU citizen. I regret giving our son US citizenship because he will now be burdened with submitting to US tax schemes. It is also becoming increasingly difficult and expensive to renounce US citizenship. We will not be returning to a life in the US, and we can see no benefit in ever sending our son to receive an education in the US (horrible school system). So, if you don't plan to return to a life in the US, don't do it. Besides, it's not difficult for Belgian or Swedish citizens to travel to the US. Don't they both have favored nation status?
People with multiple citizenship are looked at with suspicion compared to single citizen individuals. I don't think the benefits are as real as you believe.
While the U.S. used to be the place everyone wanted to go, the trend is for the government to pass laws making it harder and harder for wealthy people to leave. There is no benefit in becoming a U.S. citizen unless you expect to live in the U.S. If going to college in U.S., there is less hassle going back and forth(though admission may be harder since schools like to show more foreign admits to show worldwide acceptance of their reputation.).
Once a U.S. citizen:
1) Hard to open a bank account in many countries since they do not want the reporting problems with the U.S. government
2) You owe U.S. tax While there is a credit and high deductible, if you become successful, they may owe U.S. taxes--especially if they are living in a low tax country. Note that limits are not indexed for inflation, so the threshold could become much lower if inflation picks up in future decades.
3) Major penalties if you have nonU.S. bank accounts you do not report to the U.S.
4) If successful, your estate will owe U.S. inheritance taxes even if you give up U.S. citizenship if you die within 10 years of ending citizenship/
In short, if you are a bum or slacker, the U.S. wants you and citizenship is a good deal. If you earn serious money after becoming a U.S. citizen, you will regret getting the citizenship. Also important is that a noncitizen can visit the U.S. as a tourist without too much effort, but it is much harder if the person wanting to visit is a former U.S. citizen who has given up their citizenship.
Boris Johnson was born in New York and is a dual American/British citizen. Hillary Clinton and Jeb Bush were not born abroad and neither are citizens of any nation other than the US. So it's not the same - Boris, as an American citizen, is subject to taxes in the US and even more oddly, could become President of the United States (I think, the rules are long and I haven't read them all).
My current Mrs is American and I'm from the other side of the Pacific. Last year we almost had a child (but miscarried). Had it got along further / come to term, I would sent her (a few months in advance) to have the baby outside the US.
If we conceive again, I'm anticipating that we'll be living outside the US and I'm going to try my damndest to ensure my children do *not* get US citizenship conferred - because from where I sit, there are only drawbacks:
1. My passport can get me in to more countries and is safer than a US passport
2. The third country would probably have a better passport than the US as well (somewhere that would be both feasible and would be of benefit to the kid) - somewhere business and relatively citizen friendly.
3. I hope my kids do well, so the tax issue and the overall invasive nature of the US government is a big thing for me.
Pfft. Obama didn't start it. Probably Reagan. Or maybe Roosevelt. It's been a long, slow descent... sufficiently so that most Americans haven't noticed until recently.
You might as well wait until they are old enough to decide for themselves. The tax situation is indeed a big hassle, and nowadays you have to also consider what the taxes are being used for: to turn the whole world into a war zone, as much as possible. So as a matter of conscience, I'd be against it. (I'm also a US citizen living in Scandinavia, BTW.)
Speaking as a Swede who is currently residing in the USA and having just gone through the OVDI process for accidentally not filing my taxes properly I would NEVER get a US citizenship unless you know that you want to live in the US.
Everything banking related will become much harder for you if you are living outside of the USA. A lot of banks in Sweden will not accept you as a customer. Having any sort of "PFIC" (Passive Foreign Income) is a nightmare to declare on your taxes. These includes most mutual funds, ETF's and stocks. Forget about owning or starting a company in Sweden (I owned a Swedish corporation that I was pretty much forced to sell because of the US reporting requirements and I have a mother-inlaw who is a CPA so I get really cheap tax advice).
And if you ignore it you can end up with the IRS simply sending you a bill for millions in outstanding taxes even if you have never lived in the USA.
As long as you can endow your children with US citizenship at any time I would wait until they actually need it and do it then.
Don't be so negative. You are quoting all of the surface issues established on the comment threads of the popular tech websites. Not all Christians believe that the world is only a few thousand years old and there are plenty of Christians who support Science in every way possible. Science and Religion can live in harmony. They aren't mutually exclusive. The government isn't as organized as you think it is. The work environment is better than most countries in the world, even if it doesn't live up to our expectations.
Sure, there are problems, but sticking your head in the sand isn't going to help solve them.
OP: I say let your children decide for themselves. Investigate what it will mean for them and help them gather the facts, but leave the decision up to them. The United States is a great country. I don't ever plan to leave and I can't imagine being born anywhere else. But that leaves me out of the running for valid opinions in your case because we do not have the same life experiences. You have seen different cultures than me and you are more likely going to have less of an American point of view than me.
Good luck on your decision.
It's easy to not have to worry about a military when other people worry about that for you.
Have no fear though. Russia is working hard at making sure Europe isn't just nostalgic for the old days of rampant aggression, while the US is getting to the point where it is becoming unable and unwilling to get involved.
The next fifty years are going to be so much fun in Europe.
Keep telling yourself it is so much better than across the ocean. That will keep you warm at night.
Actually, that does sound sort of silly on Iceland's part. They want you to prove a negative with a certificate?
Why does it matter if you were married in another country, and why does it matter specifically from the country you were a citizen of? What if you were married to a foreign national in another country? Does that make anything different?
If you were married before, chances are good, the previous "other party" would let Iceland know, assuming that you're running away from something. In that case a self-signed affidavit should be good enough because if you're a bigamist or running away from child support, then you perjured yourself on an official document and invalidated the terms of your marriage license or registration or whatever.
Yeah, but you know the reason for the rules. Populist measures to get the "rich" citizens who live overseas. We're building our own wall, you see. That's why it may become more effective than the Berlin Wall ever was.
That's why I just shake my head at measures like that. Rich people didn't get that way, nor do they stay that way, if they are without resources and/or intelligence. The only way to really target people is by gaining their cooperation, which is surprisingly possible in many scenarios.
Heck, even if you kill them all in a glorious revolution of the 99%, then the 1% of the 99% will take over from where the last 1% left off. After killing 20% of the rest of us in the process.
Actually, 65% of rich people in the United States (defined as the top 1% of income level) were born rich, according to the latest report I read on intergenerational income mobility in the United States. The only resources or intelligence they were ever required to exercise were to call Daddy when they needed more money. In my experience they're not stupid, but the documentary "Born Rich" probably gives you a good sense of the bubble they're born and raised in and its effects on them.
Just as with the AMT now hitting middle class families, current US tax policy against expatriates merely uses rich people as an excuse to be abusive towards middle class expatriates. Truly rich expatriates don't make money income (their income is investment income typically "earned" in the United States) so are not subject to this insanity.
It is always wise to distinguish between the propaganda used to pass a law, and the actual effects and purpose of the law.
Send mail here if you want to reach me.
True about the "born rich", but I include Daddy and the lawyers that their money buys as a resource. The rich have something like those, or they become middle class (or even in jail) rather quickly. Just take a look at this or that Hollywood star/entertainer who finds themselves shorn of their money and in IRS trouble when they get bad advice.
Simply being rich is not self-perpetuating unless you do the maintenance on it.
And frankly, I partially blame regulation (especially bad, populist regulation) for how bad the rich have gotten. It has put the pressure on them to evolve, sort of like half-assed use of antibiotics causes the resistant strains of infectious microbes to flourish and occupy the niches. I think our attempts to grind out the irresponsible rich have simply caused us to invent a better cockroach while causing collateral damage all around them.
Yes. They don't lose anything by becoming citizens (there are tax issues but they are pretty minor), and being a US citizen has a lot of advantages, like the support of US consulate services. They can then decide which passport to travel on depending on what is most convenient. And they can then donate to American political causes if they want. On the whole the benefits outweigh the costs, and if it really does become an issue they can renounce citizenship later. However, you and they should talk to a lawyer about this first to make sure there aren't any special issues that might come up in your particular case. When in doubt, always go with real legal help not random people on the internet.
It is my understanding that since a number of years an American citizen (following 9/11) cannot or can no longer hold a passport of any other nation . My son had to give up his nationality at birth in order to remain a US citizen.
Now your just making bullshit up. Dead last? You can't even make up a plausible lie.
True, with the caveat "in the developed world." Obviously not true if you include undeveloped countries. The difference is also not very large. A couple years, at most, and only a year, for most. Still technically true, and not just a statistical fluke.