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EFF Fighting Automakers Over Whether You Own Your Car
An anonymous reader writes: The Digital Millennium Copyright Act contains anti-circumvention prohibitions that affect everything from music files to cell phones. The EFF noticed that it could apply to cars as well, so they asked for an exemption to be put in place so car owners would be free to inspect and modify the code running on their vehicles. It turns out U.S. automakers don't agree — they filed opposition comments through trade associations. "They say you shouldn't be allowed to repair your own car because you might not do it right. They say you shouldn't be allowed to modify the code in your car because you might defraud a used car purchaser by changing the mileage. They say no one should be allowed to even look at the code without the manufacturer's permission because letting the public learn how cars work could help malicious hackers, "third-party software developers" (the horror!), and competitors. John Deere even argued that letting people modify car computer systems will result in them pirating music through the on-board entertainment system, which would be one of the more convoluted ways to copy media (and the exemption process doesn't authorize copyright infringement, anyway)."
If I can't work on my car, I will not buy it. Same with my computer.
Just need their forgiveness
They say you shouldn't be allowed to repair your own car because you might not do it right
They say that as if the dealers can do it right. Apparently they've never been to a dealer to get their car serviced.
I'll agree to regulating the software in my car as soon as they agree to make it completely open so an independent regulator can inspect it.
It would be something like aircraft.
Think Of the Children! They're the future we most protect them.... wut?
It's not a purchase, it's a license agreement.
Table-ized A.I.
I'm sorry, but auto manufacturers have a point. Not anyone is competent to reprogram embedded car software. Unfortunately, bugs can be deadly. How would you feel about, say, 10% of the cars on the road running custom software by the next door kid?
Cars are killing much more people than guns. In fact, I would go further than the auto manufacturers. Nobody should be allowed to drive a car. How many people on the roads shouldn't have even a driver's license at all? A lot. And you are ready to see those people hacking their own car software? No way!
Achille Talon
Hop!
is why I throw money at the EFF every month!
...coming up with a good care analogy for this.
get the god damned software OUT of cars, and all the chips. they weren't present for the first 100 years of the automobile, and they aren't needed now.
I know this comment won't be popular on Slashdot, but the auto makers do have a valid point. Cars today must meet rigid safety, fuel efficiency, and emissions standards. The car's computer is an essential part of the system. A small modification to the software can be the difference between a car being in compliance with these regulations and falling well outside them. The danger is people might start "hot-rodding" their cars through changes to the software, allowing the car to go faster but at the expense of polluting more and burning more fuel. What makes this particularly dangerous is that it would be trivial to set the car back to its factory state when it's time to bring the car in for emissions checks and then back to its "hot-rod" state as soon as you get it home. So these concerns are not unwarranted.
If I can be modded down for being a troll, can I be modded up for being an orc, or a balrog?
Under existing laws.
They say you shouldn't be allowed to repair your own car because you might not do it right.
I feel like the Magnuson-Moss Warranty Act is going to come into play at some point here.
I tried to raise this issue before... with the Tesla auto-updating your cars firmware without asking the owner of the car first, and how that means they can literally put anything in there without your consent. (NSA GPS tracking anyone?)
Everyone was too busy going "OMG TESLA RULEZ" to care. (A great car sure, but that doesn't mean we need another Apple walled-garden.)
Someone not working on their brakes and killing you is equally liable. Should people be charged if they don't take there car to get regularly serviced?
The odometer example is more like the Iphone eco-system. If someone wants to jail break their phone they are allowed but Apple will do whatever it can to make sure that doesn't happen.
You are a complete, fucking idiot, and I hope you never vote in any election of any kind. You have lost your right to have an opinion.
Two considerations: The first is that you own nothing if it can be used 'inappropriately.' Which rather rules out whipcream, strawberries, and gerbils. Wink, wink, nudge, nudge, say no more, say no more. But if that notion is valid, then you are only renting the above items, and so they necessarily must replace them should they be consumed or fail.
Similarly, it may be desirable to state that the consumer owns the vehicle, but not the software. As this opens up a fraud count on one hand -- as they *do* offer leases versus explicit ownership -- and on the other hand requires that they produce software corrections for the existence of the vehicle. Which is rather convenient in some respects as they're liable for the future discovery of security vulnerabilities in the machine. Even if that machine is a century old and doing service in a Shriner's parade.
Brakes tend to be one of the easiest jobs going. Disk brakes maybe 10 minutes or so Drum brakes can take a bit longer. It is not a hard job. At least the dust is less toxic these days.
Blarney Quality Restaurant, Plants
So I should lose my right to modify something I own because you can't be bothered to learn how to do something properly? Is that the gist of your argument? You realize someone not washing their hands could contaminate your food, does that mean people shouldn't be able to cook without permission of the grocery store? Someone can potentially kill themselves using drugs at home, but as long as you follow the instructions, it certainly doesn't require a nurse at your home to give them to you. As a liberal this is the firearm issue all over again. Just because someone could do something doesn't mean I should lose my right to it. Punish people who are stupid and stop thinking emotionally.
Except that very few people will actually be writing new code for their cars. Far more likely a few experts will do some mods and distribute it to any who want with instructions on how to install it. People who change their own brakes aren't manufacturing the brake pads in their garage - they are buying some third party hardware and following general procedures for installing them.
Sure lots of people are more than capable of doing so, but I know you wouldn't want to be in front of me if I had worked on my brakes :)
That's an argument for me to reinforce the back of my car not to ask the politicians to make a law that prevents you from working on your brakes.
It's *possible* to roll one back, but there certainly tamper resistant preventions to this in place
Didn't see any tamper preventions on the odometer of my car (made in 1982) - just a mechanical counter. In fact, I know that the odometer on my car is wrong for the simple reason that it was replaced (twice) with nobody bothering to set the replacement to the same number as the original.
Yes, the general public should not be able to work on their own cars. Only ASE certified mechanics should be allowed because of that oath they all take when they pass mechanic's school.
Before someone says something stupid, yes, that's sarcasm.
I hope these idiots know that a lot of reputable mechanics are ex-cons.
Sounds like you just need a log to audit.
I'm glad the EFF has taken up this fight. To me there's no symbolic difference between the code controlling the digital throttle in my xB and the cable doing the same thing in my 24 year-old Tercel... except that the Tercel does it better. I'm not sure, but I think the values that represent my throttle pressure aren't as smooth as they could be, and it might be due to it not being a float value.
Wonky throttle values aren't exactly unknown to Toyotas, as Wozniak discovered with his Prius. I probably would be unable to fix this bug, but he could. It's also possible that the somewhat rough transition between super-light pressure and the notch above that is actually a developing issue with my engine (it's not that noticeable, so the nuance leads me to believe it isn't physical - or at least that it could be improved in code).
So what if I could kill someone by editing the code in my xB? I could kill someone by working on my Tercel too. The legal responsibility rests with me either way. There's no real difference except that there exists precedence for controlling what people can do with the code in their gadgets. Perhaps in some crazy parallel universe, not only could automakers argue that the code isn't yours, they could argue that the whole car isn't yours to do with as you please either. I can imagine the same kind of EULA you agree to in software being applicable to the entire vehicle, listing off all the things you can and cannot do to with "your" brand new car. If they say you must go to the dealer for all repairs, then you must do it, and in the event of tempering, they can revoke your license and take your car back from you.
It's really the car analogy come to life. I have no doubt this argument has been made before. It's just that in the past, computers were computers, cars were cars, and if your car had a computer, it was just an 8-bit micro-controller that managed your vacuum control valves and fuel pressure.
had an idiot reprogram the brake software. Sure he's 'liable' but you're now dead...
On the same front, I've always marveled that anybody can work on their own brakes...and legally drive on the roads. Sure lots of people are more than capable of doing so, but I know you wouldn't want to be in front of me if I had worked on my brakes :)
I know how to work on my own brakes, but I don't enjoy it and would rather pay someone else to do it. I can't tell you how many times a so-called 'pro' has screwed up my brakes. I would place much more trust in a car enthusiast than a minimum wage greasemonkey. This is one of the reasons why it's so important to find a mechanic you can trust.
Brakes tend to be one of the easiest jobs going. Disk brakes maybe 10 minutes or so Drum brakes can take a bit longer. It is not a hard job. At least the dust is less toxic these days.
What the OP is alluding to is working on the code that controls things like the ABS, not the physical brakes themselves.
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had an idiot reprogram the brake software. Sure he's 'liable' but you're now dead...
On the same front, I've always marveled that anybody can work on their own brakes...and legally drive on the roads. Sure lots of people are more than capable of doing so, but I know you wouldn't want to be in front of me if I had worked on my brakes :)
I would be comfortable with most people on here changing their brakes. After all, most of us would research the components that are needed and select upgraded parts that work better with our cars, research the process through youtube videos, repair manuals, experts in forums, etc. and then take the time to ensure that everything was completed to specification. We would then test it and make any necessary fixes.
How is that any more scary than the mechanic in the shop, usually the least experienced guy, rushing to get 4 cars out the door on a Friday afternoon?
Most geeks would make excellent mechanics... In fact, most cars are now just rolling computers and thus the EFF efforts...
I simply don't buy cars with computers, ever. Period. My Daily driver is a 70's Porsche, and my collector car is a 60s VW Beetle. Neither even have power brakes or steering, let alone computers, and both are incredibly easy to repair. Never, ever, will I allow a computer to interfere with my driving. Made that mistake one time and one time only (and ended up with a car I hated and which fought me tooth-and-nail all the time. What a frustrating piece of crap (I kid you not, if you walked away from it, it would lock the doors in 30 seconds! What a pain in the arse! I can lock my own damn doors or leave them unlocked, as I please, thank you very much!). Don't even get me started about the traction-control (which prevented movement in winter conditions) or the stability control (which induced terrifying levels of understeer during any kind of "spirited" driving or emergency handling.) Neither the TCS nor the Stability control could be turned off in this model. But even if we leave out the dangerous stuff like the abysmal TCS/Stability control, the minor annoyances drove me nuts. Automatic lights, automatic locks, etc. Just "feature after feature" of annoying crap that I do faster and more easily myself.
The real issue that we're going to be up against is whether 3rd parties will be permitted to continue to manufacture replacement parts. Soon every part incorporates an RFID, and the car refuses to start without all the RFID tags matching the authorization database. Perhaps they'll start with all the parts that they can justify as safety-critical, 'cause, you know, for the children. The government could even push for this in order to make sure that mileage and pollution critical parts are kept unmodified, 'cause, you know, for the environment. Then when the complaints pour in that it's anticompetitive, they'll authorize third parties so long as they tithe back to the original manufacturer, 'cause, you know, for the corporations. Finally, after some number of years, they'll just deauthorize all the parts, so you have to scrap the car, 'cause, you know, you need a new car, or just because they can't be bothered to keep supplying security updates for the buggy software.
I think the real issue is that manufacturers don't want you to even look at the code, probably because they would be embarrassed at what you might find.
Any sufficiently unpopular but cohesive argument is indistinguishable from trolling.
Except that very few people will actually be writing new code for their cars. Far more likely a few experts will do some mods and distribute it to any who want with instructions on how to install it. People who change their own brakes aren't manufacturing the brake pads in their garage - they are buying some third party hardware and following general procedures for installing them.
You're comparing apples (code) to oranges (break pads). Third party manufactured break pads will be subject to some oversight and regulation, especially as you can't just whip up break pads in your garage. On the other hand you are suggesting that anyone who really wants to can modify and install software without oversight or regulation - and that is not something I'd like to see in safety critical systems.
And if the people writing the code have to get it certified before it can be used, then that puts them on the level of car manufactures right now, and sort of defeats what is being proposed by the EFF, as you will still not really own the code that is in your car.
I am Slashdot. Are you Slashdot as well?
.....sell cars which maybe used to kill people.
- http://www.milkme.co.uk
I'll take my stand with the automakers on this one.
The only way to gain popular acceptance of the substantially automated or fully driverless car is to guarantee that the technology is trustworthy and reliable ---
that all hardware and software changes are fully documented, competently performed, meet all statutory requirements and will not leave the owner or manufacturer exposed to civil or criminal action somewhere down the road.
The geek may obsess over his "ownership" of a vehicle. I care more about avoiding a crash and a lawsuit that may cripple me financially.
1) fully programmable ecus have been around (and cheap) for ages. Over 13 years ago, I took out my project car's factory ecu and plugged the same wiring harness into an ecu that let me run larger injectors, a large range of manifold pressures, wideband O2 instead of narrowband, etc. This was part of a pretty crazy (for the time) turbo build. Since then, ecus have only gotten cheaper and more capable.
2) many factory ECUs are programmable and have been for ages. A lot of the american cars have readily available programmers, so that swapping in bigger injectors, cams, a blower, etc is all pretty straghtforward. I'm sure there's a ton of advancements I haven't even heard of in the past 10 years.
3) piggyback ECUs and sensor fooling setups are less capable than a full race computer, but they can easily accomplish a lot of the less crazy tunes. Back in the old old days, you could get extra fuel for your turbo with tricks like raising the fuel pressure without changing the fuel injectors, triggering extra TB mounted injectors with pressure switches, etc. And in the even older days, people didn't even have fuel injectors. People have been going fast without factory support for ages.
The real question is whether companies realize that it's to their benefit to make it easier for customers to use their product as a modding platform or not. Rather than being scared, they should see it as an opportunity to steer modders in the right direction so they don't blow up their engines. The truth is, I think car makers do an awful job of serving the enthusiast market- a lot of people like me don't want an expensive car with a safe warranty (which stealerships always try to weasel out of anyway)- we want something reliable, cheap and reasonably fast that they can wrench on, with decent support in terms of parts and factory knowledge.
Dude... brakes are easy to work with. If something goes wrong, you'll find out before you even make it onto the street. The neglectful driver who needs new brake pads is much more of a threat to your safety.
>by changing the mileage.
If only there were some way to digitally sign that.
Most linux users don't know this, but the man pages were named after Chuck Norris. Chuck Norris fsck'ing hates noobs!
They have no business complaining about people repairing their own cars or stealing music.
They might have a claim about selling cars that have been modified. No big deal, put in a "return to default setting" function and perhaps a warning "Default setting not in use" light on their dashboard.
All the more reason to keep something like brakes mechanical. It's not like electronics don't ever fail, and you usually have clear indicators for when something mechanical is on its last legs.
You are stating as such that even homebrewed reprogramming doesn't take a bunch of specialized equipment and knowledge still. It's not like opening a program, moving every value to 11 and closing. Someone who had no clue would be lucky to get the car to start, much less move move than 20 feet.
Nope, what is at issue here is more non-factory authorized tuners and repair shops. Your basic idiot can purchase an engine management system now and go to town, or hold the engine in with chicken wire, so it's not like you have safeguards regardless.
And especially as electric cars come into the fold, being able to modify parameters is the equivalent to putting on a larger exhaust. I'd rather have more options than what the factory allows, especially when the factory is charging twice the garage rate of my local shop.
Nigga please.
now your in the situation of if "why can't I modify my cars radio, while I can modify my cell phone" as an example ...
Why might this need to be done? Nissan has a defect in the Nav system (integrated into the radio), that can cause your radio not to turn on, or reboot sporadically, or freeze, or turn on only after the car has been running for a few minutes. I have personally seen most of these issue, the straight freeze being the exception. However, I can't fix it because Nissan won't give me the fix and the dealer will only apply the fix if they see it happen. So I have maybe 5 chances to make it happen with each visit to the dealership, until they see it I'm stuck with a known, documented, and readily correctable issue... If I were able to pull this update from another vehicle and apply it to mine, the problem would be done and over.
I guess you don't own anything.
Got source code for your coffee maker? Any applience?
PCB schematics?
Mechanical Drawings?
Patterns for your shirt?
By you definition you own nothing.
Apparently this is news to slashdotters, but hot rod enthusiasts are able to completely build replicas early model cars. You can build a 1940 Ford Coupe with steel frame and steel body, 1965 small block built to moderrn quality. Not one bit of electronics except for the radio. Street legal.
Nowadays building your own car is like paint by numbers. Note: possessing an indoor garage and automotive tools is recommended before attempting to build your own car.
GP does make a point, unlike you.
You don't even make a counter-point.
But then, what do we expect from an AC?
They want dealer only service just think what they can do with that? lock out jiffy lube and make you pay $50-$60 + labor at the dealer each 3000 miles or 3 months with a light you can't turn off and or locked in limp mode.
try software updates end after one 1 year want that fix buy a new car.
You're comparing apples (code) to oranges (break pads). Third party manufactured break pads will be subject to some oversight and regulation, especially as you can't just whip up break pads in your garage.
You might want to try getting some brake pads for your car. Break pads sound dangerous or a one time use item.
brakes are one of the easiest things on a car to fix on your own these days (saying you just need a change of pads and rotors, and not a new caliper)
have you seen my sig? there are many others like it but none that are the same
You're comparing apples (code) to oranges (brake pads).
uhmm...
Far more likely a few experts will do some mods and distribute it to any who want with instructions on how to install it.
I'm pretty sure that was written about code and not brake pads. The AC who posted it is welcome to correct me if I'm wrong (much like I corrected which version of the word "brake" you used).
APK quotes people (including myself) without context and should not be trusted. Just thought you should know.
It's very easy to show that code isn't factory standard, voiding any automaker liability.
No exemption does not mean no access. Those with malicious intent do not care about laws so the lack of an exemption will not slow them down. The criminals that want to cause crashes, steal cars, defraud buyers, etc. really don't care about the DMCA.
Exemptions are only for the rest of use, that want to be able to legally work on things that we purchased and should have every right to work on. That said, people should not be modifying the software that could leave the car unsafe to drive and there should be some sort of protections. Reading and understanding the software is perfectly reasonable. We have already seen manufacturers releasing flawed software that has caused dangerous situations which provides a strong case for third party review of the code.
If you give people control over their own stuff, people will die!!!!
"The dead rising from the grave! Human sacrifice! Dogs and cats, living together! Mass hysteria!"
If Dell can do this, I am pretty sure General Motors could figure it out.
And especially as electric cars come into the fold, being able to modify parameters is the equivalent to putting on a larger exhaust.
Which electric car would benefit from putting on a larger exhaust?
I'd rather have more options than what the factory allows, especially when the factory is charging twice the garage rate of my local shop.
So you change a few of the parameters of your electric car and some of the safety systems stop working right. E.g., you didn't realize that a parameter used for maximum current for acceleration interacted with the regenerative braking. I.e., you go fast but your brakes don't work as well. Or you change that acceleration parameter and your motors burn up because of the overcurrent. Or you change some other parameter that's based on a hardware limitation and you break the hardware and expect the dealer to fix it under warrantee. You blame the manufacturer, but it's your fault.
The issue though is really not the one-off experimenter who will hopefully only kill himself when he screws up, but the cottage businesses that will pop up selling kits to modify street vehicles and the people who don't understand why allowing twice the current during acceleration might be a bad thing -- but faster is gooder! Or the kit makers who reverse engineer the code for the 2016 model, but the 2017 model uses different code and they just overwrote the antilock braking function ...
It's bad enough that phones or other firmware-driven devices can be bricked by hacked code, imagine your car.
You're already trusting people to _operate_ their own brakes. That's a lot more likely to go wrong than some mishap due to mis-installed brake pads or a leaking hydraulic line.
No he isn't.
"On the same front, I've always marveled that anybody can work on their own brakes...and legally drive on the roads."
He's talking about the current situation, where people work on their own physical brake equipment.
No, the OP was talking specifically about a physical brake job (replaceing pads, rotors, etc.) He was implying that people shouldn't be able to do their own work on brakes because he doesn't have any idea how to do it himself.
Bullshit. Sure, brake pads in particular might end up with oversight and regulation (in the sense of regulating the operations of the factory, but not necessarily in the sense of their suitability for the application) because they're hard for one person to make himself, but there are plenty of other things on a car that are almost as essential but completely unregulated. There's nothing whatsoever stopping a random guy with a welder from fabricating his own suspension parts, engine parts, the entire car body, etc. He could even weld a big spike on the front of the car if he wanted. The police would probably look at him funny, but they wouldn't stop him.
If you're a car manufacturer -- which means somebody who builds more than X cars a year, where X is a pretty big number -- then you need to meet regulations. However, home-built cars are exempt from most (if not all) of it.
"[Regarding the 'cloud,'] ownership was what made America different than Russia." -- Woz
Is seems most folks don't know the true definition of ownership. Ownership of something is proportional to your control over it. If you control something, you own it. If you have no control over it, you don't own it.
If you look at how products and their various support and delivery mechanisms have changed in the last decade+, you will see a cross-industry trend whereby consumers that purchase products are losing more control over them.
BTW, it doesn't matter if you elect to personally exercise control you hold over something, perhaps due to interest, skill, or time. To the extent that consumers have control, commercial opportunities become available that don't exist if control stays with the manufacturer. In other words, you might exercise your ownership rights through a third party.
Which definition of equivalent are you unaware of?
The bit that you are too dense to grasp is that all of your fears are happening NOW. Every single car you see on the road has the possibility of some modification to the mechanicals or EMS. I upgraded to larger brakes. The horror!
The main difference is being able look over the entire code so it is obvious that maximum current is linked to regenerative braking or having to kluge together some code and finding out after the accidents start coming in.
And especially here, arguing for security through obscurity is just delicious.
had an idiot reprogram the brake software. Sure he's 'liable' but you're now dead...
Have an idiot remove worn brake pads and put in the wrong size replacement. Sure he's liable, but you're now dead.
And still, nobody prevents you from replacing brake pads yourself! Particularly, they don't add a padlock blocking access to the brake pad slot. (A lock only the manufacturer has the key for.) But that is the situation with software.
Further, there are a lot of pro software developers who are capable of rewriting brake controller sw. It is not merely the idiots who are prevented here - I cannot get source code even if I present my master degree in programming.
Fortunately, the situation is not hopeless. There are aftermarket components for all the electronics - which is used by the racing communities. So if you have money, you can rip out all the manufacturer's closed electronics, and put in racing controllers for which source is available.
On the same front, I've always marveled that anybody can work on their own brakes...and legally drive on the roads.
The common brake jobs is replacement of brake pads (and sometimes brake discs). These are designed to be replaced, so the work is not that tricky. Replacing brake fluid is another one which is easy enough for DIY.
Given how much more complex software can be than a physical mechanism, the implications of every yahoo reprogramming their cars does make me wonder. I agree with the EFF's idea here, it's my car I should be able to work on it, but is there something perhaps too far from that? The odometer is a good example. It's *possible* to roll one back, but there certainly tamper resistant preventions to this in place. Should computers in cars have the same thing?
Most yahoo's aren't programmers. Those who has programmed "a little" knows how easy it is to screw up simple stuff like a sorting routine. They will usually not take chances where a simple bug is a killer.
As for the odometer, rolling one back is illegal, similiar to faking the model year in the paperwork. No "tamper-proofing" has ever prevented it though. Mechanical odometers were easy enough - electronics even easier, just hook up an eprom programmer and be done with it. Perhaps a device with knowledge of a manufacturer password is needed, but that is still easy. Garages have such a thing anyway, because they need to program "replacement odometers" with the correct distance. So bad guys buy/steal a garage device - or reverse engineer one.
If you want to guard against odometer fraud, check the service history. An expensive used car should be serviced by brand-name garages anyway, and they will write down the odometer reading. Thet will provide this reading on request, making blatant fraud easy enough to check.
Already answered. Smartphones are very programmable,
- except you don't have root (which is to ensure the system works like the OS maker),
- except the FCC-approved radio chip (to ensure you use public airspace inappropriately).
"Programmable cars" have been here since they put in radio tuners. The level of programmability should increase, but they should retain control of safety-critical operations.
Science & open-source build trust from peer review. Learn systems you can trust.
As far as I can tell the cost of a Toyota Corolla is basically the same number of dollars as it was 10 years ago. Which means that after factoring in inflation the car is significantly cheaper than it used to be.
I have a 2005 Toyota Matrix, and aside from oil changes and tires I've only had to replace one part (the airbag clockspring) which cost a few hundred bucks and which I installed myself.
Not the same AC, but I've mostly given up on making counter-points with idiots on the Internet.
If someone screws up the breaks on their car they're much more likely to kill themselves or wreck their vehicle. Maybe only the dealer for your refrigerator should be able to install a water filter! If you do it people could get sick from contaminated water!
In the UK, modifications such as you suggest still need to meet the vehicle roadworthiness test for the car to gain its MOT certificate - can't hit the road without one of those, so the work is definitely regulated.
Hey no problem. They want dealer only service for the life of the car, then go ahead and supply it under warranty.
If you are not allowed to question your government then the government has answered your question.
Well bad people dont give a damn what car manufacturer thinks.. They are going to look throw the code anyways to find holes they can use to benefit. Want to steal a car? Find security hole that allows you to unlock doors and start the car.
I remember when the standard analogy comparing open source to proprietary software was, "Would you buy a car with the hood welded shut?" Sound to me like they are wanting to weld the hood shut.
Which definition of equivalent are you unaware of?
The one where changing one thing on a car is "equivalent to" changing something else that the car doesn't have to begin with. If changing the exhaust on a electric car (which has no effect at all) is equivalent to changing the software, then why bother? It will have no effect.
The bit that you are too dense to grasp
Thanks for playing. Putting one aftermarket piece of hardware on a car is not the same as (or equivalent to) modifications to software that runs a large number of systems on that car. There is a manufacturer that designed and tested that bit of kit you upgraded to. Who tests the modified software that you think you are smart enough to write to control the functions of your car?
The main difference is being able look over the entire code so it is obvious that maximum current is linked to regenerative braking
Except it may not be obvious. And it may not be obvious that the current limit on acceleration is based on circuit limits, unless you also tear the car apart to see what the specific electronic circuits involved are rated at. Wouldn't it be really safe if you load your family in the car and head off for a long trip, and show them how much better your car accelerates that it used to? And what's that burning smell, by the way? Great, the car is on fire.
And it may be a physical hardware limit. What's the tensile strength of the bolts that mount that motor?
And especially here, arguing for security through obscurity is just delicious.
So don't argue for that. And stop being patently insulting in your attitude. People who disagree with you aren't dense, they just don't agree with you.
But what about modifying the computer to no longer send data to the (nowadays electronic) odometer?
flamebait, really? just wow.
People in cars cause accidents....accidents in cars cause people
When you repeatedly type "break pads" instead of "brake pads," you identify yourself as someone not qualified to discuss automotive repairs. Brake means to stop moving; break means to stop working.
Regardless, I feel like I should point out that there is already regulation covering your oranges. There are federal and, usually, state requirements which identify the parameters within which brake components need to operate. Typically those parameters define the maximum distance that the vehicle can use to stop on a specified surface from a specified speed. In IL (and most states), they are further specified to be divided up such that a failure in one system does not remove the vehicle's ability to stop, and that there be at least two ways of applying said braking system.
That's how brake pads work. There is no oversight on quality of brake pads or shoes; you *can*, in fact, just whip up some friction material in your garage if you so desire. You can also modify how the ABS system works. I've personally done both, and both are well within the law as long as my car can still stop in the required distance. How is that enforced? If I ram my car into someone else's car and it appears to have happened because my brakes sucked, I get a special "extra" fine for operating unsafe equipment, on top of the "don't ram into people" ticket.
But, back to your desire for certification to enable working on cars... Please take your abject lack of knowledge about automotive repair and apply it to something else, like maybe .NET programming. The rest of us who actually work on cars will continue keeping our cars safer than the normal idiots who drive around with 5-year-old wipers on dirty glass and bald tires without ever changing their hygroscopic, ineffective, "been there since the car was new" brake fluid.
home-built cars are exempt from most (if not all) of it.
Is there a source for this? I know things like ultra-light aircraft have very low regulatory hurdles, but cars on the open road? I thought there were minimums in place that get stricter every year. Like how all new cars need a tire pressure monitoring system?
:)
Genuinely curious
People in cars cause accidents....accidents in cars cause people
I'm sorry, but auto manufacturers have a point. Not anyone is competent to reprogram embedded car software. Unfortunately, bugs can be deadly. How would you feel about, say, 10% of the cars on the road running custom software by the next door kid?
Cars are killing much more people than guns. In fact, I would go further than the auto manufacturers. Nobody should be allowed to drive a car. How many people on the roads shouldn't have even a driver's license at all? A lot. And you are ready to see those people hacking their own car software? No way!
What an unreasonable argument. I doubt any time in modern times has the ability to modify a car resulted in 10% of the cars on the road being modified from stock, not by experienced and qualified auto shops much less by some pimply faced kid next door. And confusing the argument by bringing driver skill into the equation is nonsensical -- that is entirely a separate subject that has nothing to do with the topic at hand.
This is all about using questionable digital asset laws like the DMCA to fundamentally change the landscape of the auto service industry (and other things). An automotive mechanical system can be reverse engineered by taking it apart. A manufacturer comes up with a mechanical systems improvement, and pretty soon third party parts companies are offering cheaper if not sometimes better replacement parts. Customers get choice, competition flourishes, etc. Now take a new digital auto system. It could be reverse engineered by "taking it apart" digitally, but DMCA makes that illegal. Worse yet, the communications protocols that allow auto subsystems to talk to each other will soon be encrypted and will also fall under the DMCA. The end result is that third parties will not be able to offer replacement parts. Customer choice plummets, competition is non-existent, and the end result is a capture of recurring revenue by the auto manufacturer.
Don't fool yourself into thinking this is a little thing. This is a big deal. It's like buying Keurig and forever buying chipped K-cup coffee instead of using an old Mr. Coffee and using any old ground coffee. The digital trends in automotive engineering are far more subtle and complex, but the end result -- and the reasons to pursue some of these changes -- are exactly the same.
I would place much more trust in a car enthusiast than a minimum wage greasemonkey
I can fully agree with this statement. However it's not the point I was making. What about someone worse than a minimum wage greasemonkey....like me? Perfectly legal today....
People in cars cause accidents....accidents in cars cause people
Most geeks would make excellent mechanics
yeah but this would become actual reality
"Would you want a car that would crash twice a day for no reason?"
People in cars cause accidents....accidents in cars cause people
because in an electric car, changing the setting on the radio can actually change the setting on your brakes.
When connections are made via code, you have NO idea what changing one setting is going to do because it's writing to a common location that multiple things are reading from.
Is that scenario realistic? Of course not, but any one who programs has experience changing setting A and watching B, C and Q go haywire just because somebody didn't document what they were doing.
People in cars cause accidents....accidents in cars cause people
You have never worked on a car then? Getting a modified car approved for insurance can be difficult. (A friend had to jury rig adjustable sun visors on his convertible for the test, for example) No insurance and you cannot drive your car on the road (at least in most sane parts of the world)
The police will most definitely pull you over, confiscate your vehicle and issue a fine.
I have worked on a number of custom cars, and have friends who have worked on many more. No you cannot just do whatever you want to Mad Max your car...
This ^
Oh for fucks sake...
If I change timing an a vehicle through software or through larger injectors is irrelevant. I'm changing an operating parameter, but since software is more akin to magic to you, it's nothing that should be trusted to mere mortals.
And beyond your doomsday scenarios, even with complete modification being available now, that hasn't transpired; it's possible, and so should be outlawed. Do you work for DHS by chance?
And the ONLY thing that would change is increasing the cost, as again, you were too dense to catch it, complete EMS systems are available now. Complete motor management systems are available now. By your estimation we should have death tolls, and yet nothing.
There are even critical systems running linux now. No explosions that I'm aware of.
What do you have against empirical evidence anyway?
Further, arguing for safety concerns through the auspices DMCA is disingenuous in the extreme. You are arguing for no modifications, which, allow me to laugh even further. Putting in an aftermarket stereo could overload the electrical systems of a car, sending kittens and babies to a fiery death. Oh dear god.
The only thing patently insulting is your idiocy.
There is something to be said for a '68 mustang with a 302 in it
i was getting 18 freeway
I thought I understood your point. Your point was about restricting the rights of people to work on their own cars because some portion of those people may be dangerously incompetent. My point was that the alternative to allowing people to work on their own cars, forcing them to go to "professionals, also poses the risk of having some portion of those people being dangerously incompetent.
It's my opinion that restricting liberty should be backed by very sound reasoning, if not considered only as a last resort.
No, what should have applied here was the Motor Vehicle Owners Right to Repair Act of 2009 http://righttorepair.org/about/default.aspx, but after several years of fighting the bill the automakers finally killed it last year by agreeing to allow independent repair shops access to the necessary information http://www.autonews.com/article/20140125/RETAIL05/301279936/automakers-agree-to-right-to-repair-deal.
This deal allowed them to continue to withhold the information from car owners and shade tree mechanics, since they can (and do) put up process hoops to make repair shops prove they are a commercial enterprise.
http://tech.slashdot.org/story/09/05/20/2219236/right-to-repair-law-to-get-drm-out-of-your-car
Lack of relevant editorial references like this is what you get from editors who have the attention span of a meth-addicted goldfish. *sigh*
That is why you use the video in your cell phone to document it. With video documentation either they will cowboy up and fix it, you can shame them into fixing it with social media, or you can go to small claims and slap them into fixing it.
I swear to god the shills on this website...this has nothing to do with the code.
Actually this thread is really about the code. Re-read and note: "The EFF ... asked for an exemption to be put in place so car owners would be free to inspect and modify the code running on their vehicles."
Car companies want to stop independent mechanics using software than bypasses the manufacturers electronic locks.
Yes, that is also true. However that does not negate the reality that the EFF wants people to be able to MODIFY code. That is something FAR beyond simply getting the error codes and diagnostic data that would allow non-dealership mechanics to work on the car. Its a related but quite separate issue.
No. He doesn't, and now you've lost your rights too.
Being afraid of technology makes you a waste of oxygen.
You should just make "Think of the children" your sig so we remember you're an idiot.
The only thing patently insulting is your idiocy.
I understand. People who disagree with you are idiots. End of story.
Further, arguing for safety concerns through the auspices DMCA is disingenuous in the extreme. You are arguing for no modifications,
Since it is clear you haven't bothered to take the time to understand what my position is, why should I bother talking to you?
but since software is more akin to magic to you,
Ok, because you aren't looking for a discussion of the issue and are planning on winning by insult, you win. Bye.
Brakes tend to be one of the easiest jobs going.
And yet people get it wrong all the time.
Disk brakes maybe 10 minutes or so Drum brakes can take a bit longer.
Many of my vehicles have had four wheel disc and yet twice I've opened up a drum brake to do a brake job and found a component installed backwards.
As an aside, why the fuck are there drum brakes any more? Anyone who has specified them for a production vehicle since WWII should be slapped, smacked, stabbed, shot, and then taken outside and really hurt.
"You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
Didn't see any tamper preventions on the odometer of my car (made in 1982) - just a mechanical counter.
OBD-II vehicles maintain an internal odometer in the PCM, even if the cluster somehow has a physical odometer. Modern vehicles with immobilizers have security codes which come into play when replacing immobilizers. In many cases it is possible for the shadetree mechanic to program immo codes so long as they manage to get the codes out of the old hardware before replacing it. If too much smoke has been let out of components, it means a trip to the dealer... or replacement of the PCM with an aftermarket unit. My Audi A8 has all that fancy-pants stuff, but in a pinch I could buy a $500 replacement aftermarket PCM. It wouldn't be smog-legal, but my county doesn't do repeat emissions testing. I'd lose my immo functionality entirely, of course.
"You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
I've heard enough oil change horror stories from people going to certified mechanics and dealerships to know that certification doesn't guarantee a quality product or service.
So I don't see why the code should be locked away from people with a genuine interest reading/modifying it just because they might make a mistake.
I'd be far more worried about drunk drivers and texting drivers than code modified cars.
Third party manufactured break pads will be subject to some oversight and regulation, especially as you can't just whip up break pads in your garage.
What? Who told you that? I watched a video of some guys doing it in Cuba. They took asbestos out of a bag and mixed it with phenolic resin, then put it into a mold with a brake lining they had cleaned and cooked it until it was a brake shoe.
Also, third party brake pads aren't subject to any regulation, because you can sell them "for off-road use only".
"You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
brakes are one of the easiest things on a car to fix on your own these days (saying you just need a change of pads and rotors, and not a new caliper)
Harbor Freight will sell you a Mity-Vac kit for twenty bucks. Or you can buy Russell speed bleeders for about $40/vehicle. Either way, easy one-man caliper changes.
"You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
Brakes don't have software. Sure, there's ABS, but all ABS systems are required to be designed so the standard hydraulic brakes work even if the ABS system gives up entirely. And the hydraulic brakes are even required to work if the booster quits. And if the hydraulic brakes fail, it is also required by law that there is a backup system (your handbrake).
>Sure lots of people are more than capable of doing so, but I know you wouldn't want to be in front of me if I had worked on my brakes :)
It takes two bolts to replace brake pads, two more if you want to replace the rotors. Seriously, they're the simplest item on your car to fix. Barely a step above changing the oil. And only just barely (I changed brakes before I changed oil). If you get them wrong, about the only thing you can do that will let you still drive the vehicle is either forget the pads (you'll figure that out in a hurry) or put the pads in backwards (you'll figure that one out too pretty quickly, and you'll still be able to stop, just not as easily).
>The odometer is a good example. It's *possible* to roll one back, but there certainly tamper resistant preventions to this in place.
LOL. That was the first thing that I did on my car. Not on purpose, but the cluster gave up. Bought a used one that had half the mileage. No, don't worry, nobody got ripped off. The car ended up at the junkyard and I let them know "True Mileage Unknown (but probably about 350,000 kms)." Digital, too, so no rolling back. Turns out many vehicles don't store the displayed miles in the PCM, it's stored in the cluster computer.
>How far do you take it?
As far as I can. I wish I had known that I could have disabled all the O2 sensors on my last car. Again, not to burn the environment to a crisp, but because it was a propane conversion and, surprise, surprise, burning cleaner fuel confused the hell out of the computer.
Right on bro.
Never unlock your phone.
Never take the tag off that mattress.
If your open your PC case, your warranty is void!
Electronics and software are magic, if you look at them funny they get angry.
In this world there are people like us (hackers) and people like you (consumers). You pay us a lot of money to do the most simple (in our minds) tasks. And for that we thank you. It funds our hobbies.
Make it super double plus illegal, we'll still do it. We'll drive on your roads, you'll never know. And one day, when you tick us off, your self driving car will be floating in the pond at your fancy golf course. And you'll scream but have no clue why or how, just like you take on the everything else in the world; pre packaged and done for you.
Already had this problem with my 2003 Honda Civic Hybrid. The hybrid battery went dead. I went to the dealer and asked them to sell me a new battery so I could put it in. They refused, insisting THEY had to install it, and they would not sell me the battery! That's right, kids -- they refused to let me fix my own car, despite the fact that I am a trained electronics technician and hold a Bachelor's degree in Electronics Engineering!
I've abandoned my search for truth; now I'm just looking for some useful delusions.
This is one of the main reasons I absolutely reject the "Internet of Things". It's because it will inevitably lead to you not actually owning any of those "things" that you buy.
As long as we have these cockamamie "intellectual property" laws in place, I see the "Internet of things" as an assault on my rights and counter to my preferences as a consumer.
You are welcome on my lawn.
A few years ago my 2006 Hyudai Elantra car alarm started acting up. It would go off and not respond to the key-fob, unless I damn near stomped on the fob. I went to a my mechanic and a couple of aftermarket car alarm companies seeing if they could simply disarm the alarm. They all made the Sign of the Cross (metaphorically), and I was basically told that if any car mechanic of any sort other than a dealer ever working on any car alarm and the local police found out about it, they, the mechanics, would be assumed to be working with auto theft rings. Then they (the mechanics), shot me with their grease guns.
It doesn't matter. In a few years cars will be unrepairable or not worth repairing, like everything else.
Lets remember their arguments when the self driving cars get here...
*I* don't need car insurance! I'm not driving. I don't even own the car!
Someone got killed? Automakers problem! I'm going home. Send me a new car...
The guy behind you took his car to Bubba's reel cheep breaks. Or was relieved when that annoying squeaky noise when he applied the brakes finally stopped on it's own. Guy behind you is stealth texting.
Or, since he didn't know how to get the brakes into maintenance mode, so he used a tire iron and a hammer to make it go back together...
Given that, I'm not so sure I'm all that worried about the guy somehow managing to go from reading a few things out and sending a few commands to re-flashing his brakes. As risk goes, it's a drop in the bucket.
Now, let's look at reprogrammable devices. How many average Joes reflash with Cyanogen mod? Do you know anyone running Windows with a patched kernel? It's possible to reprogram the ECS now. A few people do, but most do not.
So you change a few of the parameters of your electric car and some of the safety systems stop working right. E.g., you didn't realize that a parameter used for maximum current for acceleration interacted with the regenerative braking. I.e., you go fast but your brakes don't work as well.
You mean the regenerative portion doesn't work and you end up failing to recapture the energy.
Or you change that acceleration parameter and your motors burn up because of the overcurrent.
Bad news for the idiot but I don't see a public interest here.
Or you change some other parameter that's based on a hardware limitation and you break the hardware and expect the dealer to fix it under warrantee. You blame the manufacturer, but it's your fault.
Your firmware doesn't match the factory and they can see you re-flashed. Bye Bye warranty.
Bricked car? Flash back to factory. Bricking is for cheap routers and PCs. Real embedded hardware can be re-flashed even if you completely wipe the firmware and then power cycle. (So can the router, but you have to solder pins on the JTAG pad).
At least the dust is less toxic these days.
That's a myth. Asbestos based linings were never banned, and still exist.
I learned that a couple years ago. I swore it was banned too, but it isn't the case.
Sent from my PDP-11
Putting one aftermarket piece of hardware on a car is not the same as (or equivalent to) modifications to software that runs a large number of systems on that car.
It can in fact be much the same thing. If you replace the PCM, it will affect many systems. The PCM is a part.
Wouldn't it be really safe if you load your family in the car and head off for a long trip, and show them how much better your car accelerates that it used to? And what's that burning smell, by the way? Great, the car is on fire.
So, just like if someone changed a major engine part? What's the difference?
"You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
In the case of autonomous cars, I'm perfectly OK with a layer of access that consumers don't get... We're going to want car makers / car OS makers to assume liability for accidents where software is at fault; giving consumer access to the autonomous vehicle control code could be not only dangerous, but a way to pass that liability on to the consumer.
Not to mention is anyone else worried that once cars are autonomous, if hackers aver gain the ability to hijack them, the results could be catastrophic: kidnapping, using cars as weapons, holding people hostage in their on vehicles. The potential there is pretty scary.... So I for one am quite ok with keeping vehicle code in the hands of the automakers, let them stay responsible for it.
1981-89 Volvos FTW.
Car makers may not want to win such a suit. By getting the courts to force them to make code available the companies establish a legal shield against law suits caused by people who incorrectly use the code. They can not be held liable if they are forced by the government to reveal that code. Sometimes suits are filed with the intention of loss or at least with the hope of establishing "clean hands" to show a jury that everything possible was done to prevent a situation.
Wikipedia has a brief entry on open-source cars.
because you tried to code them to let you drift and impress your friends, I'm sure that you will somehow manage to bring them back to life. Unless you are able to prove to the same degree as the real engineers that you know what you are doing, I don't want any hacked up critical systems out on the public streets.
to have everyone drive tanks so the big bad government doesn't intrude on you so called right to get plastered and drive home?
simply repeating the same BS over and over does not make it true. I know that young children like to repeat themselves, but you probably want to have people actually consider what you have to say.
people preparing food in their own home cant sell to the public without, guess what, a lot of rules and regulations. If you were planning on keeping you car in your garage you could modify the heck out of it and nobody would care. If you plan on driving on public streets, then the public has the right and duty to stop you from putting everyone else in danger due to your over inflated sense of self-importance.
that I should be able to do whatever I want and expect the grownups to clean up my mess with a smile.
so there is no difference!
I'd taxi drivers, drives our crown vic police interceptors to 400,000 miles with very minimal maintenance.
Okay , I messed up the first part. Anyway, we get another 250K to 300K after getting ex police cars with 100k
"As an aside, why the fuck are there drum brakes any more?"
For some applications, they work better. (and they're cheaper)
With the security in the car. Regardless of what they tell you all new cars have GPS, record your every move, and record the care you take to keep up the car (for warranty and engine service needs) . If they call you crazy when they tell you they don't do this.... think again. This is why they don't want you tinkering under the hood. Chances are it would be the first things disabled.