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Republicans Introduce a Bill To Overturn Net Neutrality

New submitter grimmjeeper writes: IDG News reports, "A group of Republican lawmakers has introduced a bill that would invalidate the U.S. Federal Communications Commission's recently passed net neutrality rules. The legislation (PDF), introduced by Representative Doug Collins, a Georgia Republican, is called a resolution of disapproval, a move that allows Congress to review new federal regulations from government agencies, using an expedited legislative process."

This move should come as little surprise to anyone. While the main battle in getting net neutrality has been won, the war is far from over.
The legislation was only proposed now because the FCC's net neutrality rules were just published in the Federal Register today. In addition to the legislation, a new lawsuit was filed in the U.S. Court of Appeals for the District of Columbia Circuit by USTelecom, a trade group representing ISPs.

441 comments

  1. the debate is on by turkeydance · · Score: 0

    no need to post on /. ...tribute $ to D.C. works much better. rant on.

  2. Why is it even a discussion? by cybrthng · · Score: 5, Insightful

    The open internet is one of the most democratizing things we have in a modern society, why is this even up for debate? What benefit would society have in enabling "Fast lanes" or "premium" connections or other nonsense? What do we get protecting commercial interests?

    1. Re:Why is it even a discussion? by spiritplumber · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Campaign contributions.

      --
      Liberty - Security - Laziness - Pick any two.
    2. Re:Why is it even a discussion? by Rinikusu · · Score: 1

      Because I have a god-given right to profit, that's why!

      --
      If you were me, you'd be good lookin'. - six string samurai
    3. Re:Why is it even a discussion? by grimmjeeper · · Score: 5, Insightful

      The open internet is one of the most democratizing things we have in a modern society, why is this even up for debate? What benefit would society have in enabling "Fast lanes" or "premium" connections or other nonsense? What do we get protecting commercial interests?

      Calling them "fast lanes" is a misnomer. But it's shorter than calling them "paying-twice-to-get-out-of-the-technically-unnecessary-but-profit-inducing-slow-lanes".

    4. Re:Why is it even a discussion? by neghvar1 · · Score: 5, Insightful

      campaign contributions according to politicians, judges and lawyers. but to us common folk, it's bribery.

    5. Re:Why is it even a discussion? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0, Interesting

      The open internet is one of the most democratizing things we have in a modern society, why is this even up for debate? What benefit would society have in enabling "Fast lanes" or "premium" connections or other nonsense? What do we get protecting commercial interests?

      Nice in theory, but do you really think this government is going make things better? What are your examples of that? Wishful thinking? Surely not the history of telecommunications - which would be most appropriate. Damn near a century of being limited to voice-over-landline under government regulation, and once regulations were lifted look what happened - internet, smartphones, ubiquitous mobile devices.

      Do you REALLY think the AT&T monopoly that ran voice-over-land-line for a century under government regulation would have done anything like cell phones?

      Yeah, they had a great R&D department, winning Nobel Prizes, inventing the transistor, discovering the cosmic background radiation. And they did NOTHING with all that knowledge to provide innovative services to their customers.

      Long distance calls were an expensive, big deal where everyone gathered once a week to talk to relatives for a short time.

      For a fucking century.

      A better question is what do we get by imposing thousands of pages of regulations on internet service other than incumbent protection and regulatory capture.

    6. Re:Why is it even a discussion? by diamondmagic · · Score: 0

      No one is arguing how to route packets. We're arguing if there should be a Packet Police.

      That is, we're arguing if it should be dictated by the same agency that fines you for saying "fuck" on broadcast television, or trying to record it.

    7. Re:Why is it even a discussion? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The open internet is one of the most democratizing things we have in a modern society, why is this even up for debate?

      Because the "open internet" remains "open" even if "net neutrality" is overturned, and if overturned by the congress (of USA - i am Greek) it will be democratic - so that's why the debate.

      What benefit would society have in enabling "Fast lanes" or "premium" connections or other nonsense?

      The benefit of society if fast lanes or premium connections are enabled will be fast lanes and premium connections for the society...

      What do we get protecting commercial interests?

      Freedom! (don't make USA a place that needs a Greek to answer that)

    8. Re:Why is it even a discussion? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      At this point SOMEONE is better than no one. I am sorry, but Congress has had more than enough time fixing this problem. They bloody don't even want it fixed. I for one am grateful that someone is rocking this beached boat.

    9. Re:Why is it even a discussion? by TheGratefulNet · · Score: 1

      "packet police" sounds funny.

      maye we should call the anti-net freedom guys "bit bastards". maybe it will stick.

      "yet another bit-bastard wants to enact legislation..."

      and so on.

      --

      --
      "It is now safe to switch off your computer."
    10. Re:Why is it even a discussion? by blue9steel · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Nice in theory, but do you really think this government is going make things better?

      Well the Republicans aren't offering a free market alternative they're just suggesting we do away with regulating the incumbents.

    11. Re:Why is it even a discussion? by grimmjeeper · · Score: 5, Informative

      If you care to read the actual ruling, you'll see that it is all about routing packets. The rules say, in short, that all traffic is to be routed equally without regard to source, destination, or content. It prevents Comcast, who effectively has monopoly power in most of the markets it serves, from charging Netflix extra simply to route packets from their servers to their subscribers. The ruling also prevents service providers from rerouting web requests to competitors' servers. It also prevents outright denying access to competitors. In fact, the ruling states quite clearly that ISPs are to act as common carriers and no censorship of content is to take place at all. You would know this if you actually read the ruling and stopped reading propaganda coming from right wing "news" sources.

    12. Re:Why is it even a discussion? by PRMan · · Score: 2

      If anything ever convinced me to be even less of a Republican than I ever was, it's this. They're dead to me now. This completely breaks the internet, which I use every day to make a living. How anyone could be this wrong about something is beyond me.

      --
      Peter predicted that you would "deliberately forget" creation 2000 years ago...
    13. Re:Why is it even a discussion? by Archangel+Michael · · Score: 2, Insightful

      You actually believe the FCC won't cater to any particular group's requests?

      The fact is, while being called "net neutrality" it is not that. I support regulation free internet. IF You want to fix the "Comcast vs Netflix" problem, fix the last mile problem first. IF consumers actually had a choice in providers, beyond Cable vs others, you'd see better customer service.

      Right now, the problem is entirely franchise agreements for last mile providers, NOT with anything Comcast or Netflix are arguing about. With MY idea, even Netflix could become their own provider.

      Backhaul fiber last mile to a COLO facility, where the end users can choose between several providers, Comcast, TimeWarner, Cox, Verizon, ATT, Netflix for whatever service they need. After that, you won't need regulation as competition will force improvements to service and support.

      Putting it in the hands of unelected bureaucrats is not a viable solution. Give me the choice as to what is best for me, don't decide it for me, because you don't know me.

      --
      Agent K: A *person* is smart. People are dumb, stupid, panicky animals, and you know it.
    14. Re:Why is it even a discussion? by TheGratefulNet · · Score: 5, Insightful

      having the government step in may not be the best solution, but its the ONLY solution we can pick.

      are you arguing for the so-called 'free hand' to auto correct?

      (wait. you're serious??)

      gov has to step in BECAUSE free market (that does not truly exist) keeps screwing the customer more and more. there is no sign of any fix coming from them; quite the opposite.

      so, SOMEONE has to step in. the gov is the only other 'power' that can help balance this out of control industry.

      --

      --
      "It is now safe to switch off your computer."
    15. Re:Why is it even a discussion? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

      That's because Republicans don't govern. They rail against big government and then let the corporations run ramshod over the American people while they're wined and dined by corporate lobbyists.

    16. Re:Why is it even a discussion? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Because passing regulation of the Internet into the hands of the federal government isn't a surefire way of maintaining this democratizing tool. On one side we have corporate interests endangering the "Internet as we know it" - on the other we have the potentiality for an even worse surveillance state. I'm generally a proponent of Net Neutrality, but asking Poppy Gov'ment to uphold our privileges is not incontrovertibly the best thing to do - that's why this should still be a debate.

    17. Re: Why is it even a discussion? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Informative

      Actually AT&T did apply results from the labs to the phone system. (They would have been stupid not to, they did way to maximize profit, after all.) In particular, they made huge advances in switching technologies. And how do you know they wouldn't have come out with cell phones?

      I am not arguing that deregulation was bad. I just don't agree with your facts.

      Further, you are being specious. The net neutrality regulations will prevent ISPs from discriminating traffic. Pricing will not be regulated, so innovation will not be depressed.

    18. Re:Why is it even a discussion? by TheGratefulNet · · Score: 4, Insightful

      the republicans are like children to technology: or worse. the average 5 year old knows more than the shriveled old white guys that wear the R badge.

      they are afraid to endorse ANYTHING the 'left' wants. its the grouch marx thing: "whatever it is, I'm against it!". that's one part of it. the other is that they see this as NOT allowing a 'nice' big business to overcharge and profetize twice for the same data.

      they are not at all concerned with anyone's quality of life except what lines their own pockets. the D's are not much better, these days, but at least they are not on the wrong side of history on so many modern issues.

      they have been quite brazen in how little they care for 'mr. everyman'. if you are not in the top of the rich class, you don't exist to them; and the ultra rich have no need for faster or even reliable internet. hell, they have other people 'do the internet' stuff for them, so they are very detached from reality.

      but simply, its the grouch marx thing that really explains it all. too bad that we have such polarization in this country; progress has been a concept that has not been around for decades, now, because of it.

      --

      --
      "It is now safe to switch off your computer."
    19. Re:Why is it even a discussion? by sjames · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Don't forget the same bad ol' government broke up AT&T. Or that the net initially grew explosively under title II.

      So what makes you think throwing ourselves on the 'mercy' of AT&T and Comcast will get us anything but screwed?

    20. Re:Why is it even a discussion? by hey! · · Score: 1

      The open internet is one of the most democratizing things we have in a modern society...

      I think you answered your own question right there.

      --
      Post may contain irony: discontinue use if experiencing mood swings, nausea or elevated blood pressure.
    21. Re:Why is it even a discussion? by jonwil · · Score: 1

      WE get nothing at all. But the Congressmen supporting these bills get nice fat cheques from the big corporations who see net neutrality as a threat to their business model (especially those who make their money through the old legacy business model of selling linear channels instead of the new consume-what-you-want-when-you-want business model that entities like Netflix use)

    22. Re:Why is it even a discussion? by sjames · · Score: 1

      Sounds great, too bad Congress has consistently failed to come up with something to fix the last mile problem.

      Perhaps they should work on that while we see how the FCC rules actually work out in practice.

    23. Re:Why is it even a discussion? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Informative

      Yes, its called graft or bribery and is illegal in most other developed countries.

    24. Re:Why is it even a discussion? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0, Informative

      It's a private network. The owners don't like to be told how to run their private businesses. Surprise! Imagine that.

    25. Re:Why is it even a discussion? by Archangel+Michael · · Score: 0

      Why should congress fix last mile. Your municipality could do it without interference at all. Which is why we should fix it there,because if the locals screw something up, at least we have a chance to actually fix it.

      --
      Agent K: A *person* is smart. People are dumb, stupid, panicky animals, and you know it.
    26. Re: Why is it even a discussion? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It is just a matter of whose money they are taking. Nothing else.

    27. Re:Why is it even a discussion? by Lumpy · · Score: 1

      Rich republicans protecting their rich friends.

      This is based 100% in greed.

      --
      Do not look at laser with remaining good eye.
    28. Re:Why is it even a discussion? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yes actually. I HAD a "fucking" cellphone back then. In fact cellphone companies initially started as a way to side step AT&T.

      Learn history before you go ranting on it.

    29. Re:Why is it even a discussion? by Lumpy · · Score: 5, Insightful

      "Why should congress fix last mile. Your municipality could do it without interference at all. "

      Too bad Comcast and others LOBBIED to pass LAWS that make that illegal.

      Congress needs to fix the last mile by overturning the bullshit laws in states that were passed to stop competition.

      --
      Do not look at laser with remaining good eye.
    30. Re:Why is it even a discussion? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      So you know who is behind this law?

      A bunch of Corporate Office cheats, I don't know where they breed them, but they're the same old group.

      They want their own regulatory capture, and they're just pretending they're not doing anything here.

      But wait, they ARE.

    31. Re:Why is it even a discussion? by grimmjeeper · · Score: 2

      You really don't know much about how cable companies are granted monopoly control over individual markets, do you? Cable companies can't just show up in town and lay down a network whenever they feel like it. Most markets have very strict rules about who is allowed to put their cables up in utility easements.

      And don't even bother with the "illegal" content nonsense. The FCC does not decide what is legal and illegal.

    32. Re:Why is it even a discussion? by mrchaotica · · Score: 5, Insightful

      It locks in profits for big incumbent players while blocking innovation and competition.

      You say that as if it didn't already happen anyway.

      Here's a newsflash for you: there is no "free market" in telecom. It does not exist. It has never existed. It's all regulation, all the way down.

      In actual reality, we have exactly two choice:

      1. Regulate incompetently, fostering an environment of graft and corruption that fucks over the public (this is what the Republicans want).
      2. Regulate competently, protecting the public (this is what the FCC's Title II authority attempts to do).

      You'll note that not regulating at all IS NOT A GODDAMN CHOICE, so anyone who prefers option 1 to option 2 in the name of imaginary "competition" is either a shill or a moron.

      --

      "[Regarding the 'cloud,'] ownership was what made America different than Russia." -- Woz

    33. Re:Why is it even a discussion? by diamondmagic · · Score: 0, Troll

      It prevents Comcast, who effectively has monopoly power in most of the markets it serves

      I wouldn't single out Comcast in this manner, they're not uniquely a monopoly any more than other ISPs (and they're not, most people have multiple options for Internet access, virtually everyone if you include wireless options).

      charging Netflix extra simply to route packets from their servers to their subscribers

      Netflix represents the majority of Internet traffic. Not just the biggest, but the majority. Mathematically, making a "swap" peering agreement while carrying Netflix traffic is going to be impossible because the exchange will be asymmetrical.

      Every content provider who wants a fat uplink pipe needs to pay for it, and Netflix is no exception.

      The ruling also prevents service providers from rerouting web requests to competitors' servers.

      This is called fraud. It was always illegal.

      It also prevents outright denying access to competitors.

      Always been illegal. Not the FCC's jurisdiction, anyways.

      In fact, the ruling states quite clearly that ISPs are to act as common carriers and no censorship of content is to take place at all. You would know this if you actually read the ruling and stopped reading propaganda coming from right wing "news" sources.

      [Citation Needed]
      I've read the thing cover to cover.

    34. Re:Why is it even a discussion? by peragrin · · Score: 3, Informative

      You probably have one ISP to choose from. What if they dislike Slashdot and charged you extra for visiting Slashdot?

      Comcast is doing that right now to Netflix. You the customer who pays an ISP has to pay three times for the same bandwidth because your ISP doesn't like the content of what you are viewing. That is the only reason.

      --
      i thought once I was found, but it was only a dream.
    35. Re:Why is it even a discussion? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Exactly, and that is why the Republicans are in the wrong to fight against government control of the Internet. The FCC's recent power grab is a good thing for freedom.

    36. Re:Why is it even a discussion? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I'm glad to see /. has finally realized this. I was concerned the lot of you would keep taking cock in ass from the corporations for decades before finally realizing you're getting the raw end of the deal.

    37. Re:Why is it even a discussion? by ShanghaiBill · · Score: 2

      Congress needs to fix the last mile by overturning the bullshit laws in states that were passed to stop competition.

      Some of those laws have already been overturned.

    38. Re:Why is it even a discussion? by sjames · · Score: 3, Funny

      Yes, by that very same FCC the GOP wants to put a stop to.

      It's almost like the FCC wants to see if a market solution will work in the long run or something.

    39. Re:Why is it even a discussion? by Uberbah · · Score: 0

      You actually believe the FCC won't cater to any particular group's requests?

      Ironic, coming from a devout follower of Libertarian Magic Dust. This isn't hard: when the government is caving to corporate interests on matters of regulation, it's frequently a bad thing (bank bailouts + no prosecution of bankers) it's a bad thing and if it's done in opposition to those interests, it's generally a good thing (S&L prosecutions, mandating seat belts be installed on new cars).

      On this, the feds are acting in opposition to telecom monopolies, which is a good thing.

    40. Re:Why is it even a discussion? by diamondmagic · · Score: 1

      And don't even bother with the "illegal" content nonsense. The FCC does not decide what is legal and illegal.

      Two words: Wardrobe malfunction.

    41. Re:Why is it even a discussion? by diamondmagic · · Score: 0, Troll

      The FCC Title II rules might get overturned?! The Internet might be the Wild West that it was one whole month ago! Oh the humanity, we can't possibly have that!

      Wait, what was so bad about the Internet one month ago, again? I'm pretty sure Net Neutrality was still the de facto standard.

    42. Re:Why is it even a discussion? by Bing+Tsher+E · · Score: 0

      I would say the choices are to regulate incompetently one way or another. Your pure driven snow bullshit just means you favor one pack of bureaucrats over another.

      But it's ok I guess. The 'spoils system' guarantees that when a different partisan bunch comes in after another election, they can do whatever the new administration wants. No need for congressional oversight or review.

      Somehow I get the feeling your types will be screeching sometime in the future when your dude isn't holding the pen. Whatever.

    43. Re:Why is it even a discussion? by Uberbah · · Score: 4, Informative

      Second, why does a hypothetical situation that's never happened justify giving the FCC

      Netflix. Comcast. Double-charging. That happened.

      Randians, like all religious fanatics, just ignore facts that interfere with their storyline....or the entire 19th Century.

    44. Re:Why is it even a discussion? by Uberbah · · Score: 4, Informative

      Two words: Wardrobe malfunction.

      Two more words: batshit irrelevant.

      The internet is not a broadcast medium. If you had examples of the FCC trying to censor boob shots online, you'd post them. If you had something more than concern trolling and FUD.

      You wont because you can't.

    45. Re:Why is it even a discussion? by grcumb · · Score: 1

      Wait, what was so bad about the Internet one month ago, again? I'm pretty sure Net Neutrality was still the de facto standard.

      If nothing's changed, then why do we need a law to un-change the unchanged?

      --
      Crumb's Corollary: Never bring a knife to a bun fight.
    46. Re:Why is it even a discussion? by geminidomino · · Score: 2

      I support regulation free internet. IF You want to fix the "Comcast vs Netflix" problem, fix the last mile problem first.

      Those two statements are contradictory. The last mile is a natural monopoly.

    47. Re:Why is it even a discussion? by Mullen · · Score: 1, Informative

      > or shut down sex services like they did with phones using Title II

      The government has never censored sex related business on phones. You can still call sex chat lines today, although there are not many of them. In fact, there are cases where the phone companies wanted to deny service to DRUG dealers but the government said they had to treat everyone equal, even people committing crimes.

      What is with you Republicans that telling the truth or not lying is just impossible?

      --
      Linux O Muerte!
    48. Re:Why is it even a discussion? by diamondmagic · · Score: 0

      GP said the FCC doesn't censor, I called them out. Case closed.

      If you want to argue the FCC won't censor the Internet, well the FCC just answered that:

      ... Shall not block lawful content

      lawful content? I don't remember any such stipulation before. How about saying goodbye to Wikileaks? The Pirate Bay?

    49. Re:Why is it even a discussion? by Mullen · · Score: 3, Insightful

      > Damn near a century of being limited to voice-over-landline under government regulation, and once regulations were lifted look what happened - internet, smartphones, ubiquitous mobile devices.

      No, not correct at all. Cell phones are just a natural progression of technology. They have nothing to do with phones or government regulation or lack of it. Someone, invented a phone that allowed you to make a phone call on the golf course and it sold to be people who had money and wanted to be reached when not in the office. They just got smaller and adding the Internet to it is just a progression of the technology.
      If anything, regulating the phone markets made cell phones possible since it allowed companies other than AT&T to get their own switching stations.

      > Long distance calls were an expensive, big deal where everyone gathered once a week to talk to relatives for a short time.

      Yes, and the government broke up AT&T and then long distance calls got a lot cheaper. You think AT&T would have ever lowered their price? Nope, the government forced them by splitting them up. You know, Regulation. Oh ya, that happened on Ronald Reagan's watch too.

      --
      Linux O Muerte!
    50. Re:Why is it even a discussion? by phantomfive · · Score: 1

      Yeah, they had a great R&D department, winning Nobel Prizes, inventing the transistor, discovering the cosmic background radiation. And they did NOTHING with all that knowledge to provide innovative services to their customers.

      Are you kidding? You need to read The Idea Factory and get a clearer view of the issue. You're getting outraged over something you don't even understand.

      Though come to think of it, most of the time people get outraged it's over things they don't understand.

      --
      "First they came for the slanderers and i said nothing."
    51. Re: Why is it even a discussion? by jd2112 · · Score: 1

      A true Libertarian would cringe at that comment. A neo-Libertarian (like the Republicans pandering to the Tea Party) Don't have a problem with that.

      --
      Any insufficiently advanced magic is indistinguishable from technology.
    52. Re:Why is it even a discussion? by sumdumass · · Score: 2

      I'm not against net neutrality but I am against the way it happened and all the restrictions with it.

      Here you have a government agency who completely reversed their position on the internet being an information services not subject to title II regulation that they have held since the 1970s and in effect creating regulation with the effect of legislation without any input or action from the only constitutionally approved processes or elected representatives. I don't care who you are, that should scare the hell out of anyone whether they support net neutrality or not. Well at least if democracy is in any way important.

    53. Re:Why is it even a discussion? by Obfuscant · · Score: 1

      You really don't know much about how cable companies are granted monopoly control over individual markets, do you?

      I understand very well how cable companies are granted franchises to operate in different municpalities, yes. I have yet to find one that has been granted a monopoly.

      Cable companies can't just show up in town and lay down a network whenever they feel like it. Most markets have very strict rules about who is allowed to put their cables up in utility easements.

      Yes, they have rules, and must get a franchise. But having a franchise is not the same as being granted a monopoly. In fact, all of the cable franchising ordinances I've seen hve mandated that the franchise be non-exclusive (i.e., not a monopoly) and are specific in saying that there can be other franchisees.

      You probably think that a liquor store that gets a business license to operate in a certain city has been granted a monopoly, too. No, sorry, having to follow a law to be able to operate (a law that is specific in saying that any franchise cannot be a monopoly) is not creating a monopoly.

      And don't even bother with the "illegal" content nonsense. The FCC does not decide what is legal and illegal.

      The comment I replied to spoke about ISPs not being able to censor content "at all". That's patent nonsense. The FCC ruling is specific in using the term "legal" when referring to what content may not be controlled. For a reason. No, the FCC doesn't determine what is legal, but the congress does. That's still censorship if they decide that the content you want to view is illegal, and the ISPs can cut you off with the full approval of the FCC and despite any yammering about "net neutrality" and "no censorship".

    54. Re:Why is it even a discussion? by sumdumass · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Because there is a principle involved where a government agency has reversed a position it has held since the 1970s and without any congressional interaction changed regulation and basically confiscated large portions of the economy for the political whims of some. Its not necessarily what happened but how it happened.

    55. Re:Why is it even a discussion? by raind · · Score: 5, Informative

      In my state Republicans are:
      -against net neutrality
      -forbids Tesla dealerships
      -want to rescind even partial deregulation in the electric and gas industries
      http://michiganradio.org/post/...
      It's sickening.

      --
      Get up!
    56. Re: Why is it even a discussion? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You are just wrong about this, give it up.

      Netflix pays extortion money to Comscat and Verizon. They blocked packets before and now everything is fine on the same ISP and last mile networks, how is that?

      Network neutrality dumbass.

    57. Re:Why is it even a discussion? by Cytotoxic · · Score: 1

      What Bing said.

      The issue is not open and unfettered internet vs. evil corporate control. It is one set of bureaucrats and corporations against another set of bureaucrats and corporations. Just because they use the words "net neutrality" doesn't mean there is anything neutrality related involved. Remember, the same national politicians got together to give us the Republic-led bipartisan "USA PATRIOT Act", which had absolutely nothing to do with patriotism.

      "free and open internet" as we knew it is not an option on the table. The discussion at hand is about how much power Washington will have to pick winners and losers in corporate fights. And who in Washington will wield that power. Oh, and a few new fees and tacked-on unrelated regulations "just because".

    58. Re:Why is it even a discussion? by Billly+Gates · · Score: 1

      Because ObamaNET is doing a take over by the communist!

      Government control, government that wasted 19 trillion, government censorship, government, government, oh and Obama deciding everything and ENOUGH!! Fellow Tea partiers and Republicans we must unite at all costs to protect freedom! Go read the drudge report comments or comments on facebook?

      This my friend is scary propaganda that if you are conservative leading will poop your pants and want to end. Sadly these comments I wrote above are actually believed by followers of Hannity, Fox news, Rush Limbaugh and others.

    59. Re:Why is it even a discussion? by meglon · · Score: 0

      Perhaps you need to do just a little hint of what actually happened then. I realize that being scared may seem like your right, but being scared because you're ignorant makes your ignorance really stand out. The FCC did EXACTLY their job, using the tools they had which WERE given to them by congress... just not the fucking asswipe, do nothing, government hating, fringe dickwads we have in there right now.

      --
      Fascism: An authoritarian and nationalistic right-wing system of government and social organization. See also: NAZI's
    60. Re:Why is it even a discussion? by tmosley · · Score: 2

      Why have innovation and free markets when we can have government regulations?

      I'm sure this will be a great success, just like Obamacare and Amtrak.

    61. Re: Why is it even a discussion? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "You'll note that not regulating at all IS NOT A GODDAMN CHOICE, so anyone who prefers option 1 to option 2 in the name of imaginary "competition" is either a shill or a moron."

      Why are we content with this? I think about all of energy invested in begging the FCC to get into the internet regulation business when it could have been spent breaking down the laws that have created local ISP monopolies.

      Of course the new regulations will encourage more fairness and competition benefiting the consumer.

    62. Re:Why is it even a discussion? by jriding · · Score: 5, Informative

      Do you just not understand how history works?
      Before regulations you had to RENT your phone. You were only allowed 1 provider for your local phone and could pick a long distance carrier.
      Insert Title 2, phone lines became dumb pipes, then all the cool stuff you posted about like internet, answering machines, caller id, modems, DSL etc came in to being. Regulations and breaking up AT&T so there was competition is what got everything going.
      I say bring back the government that had a backbone and a set of balls. Break up some of these banks! Break up the cable companies! Fuck em. You will hear all the people scream about how the government shouldn't meddle in private business, but its the only thing they listen to. Start breaking them up and see how all of a sudden they start to play nice, so they don't get broken up as well.

      --
      love the taste, hate the texture
    63. Re:Why is it even a discussion? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      GP said the FCC doesn't censor, I called them out.

      GGP said they don't dictate what is legal and illegal traffic. Point of fact as well, the FCC doesn't actually censor but decides (on a case by case basis) what is and isn't appropriate under the indecency code which only applies to *airwaves* on the frequencies that are rule by license, not rule by device. (Commercial Broadcast TV/Radio, Amateur Radio, GMRS, and Industrial/Business Radio but not counting leased spectrum that carries broadband internet) and not transmitted over broadband including rule by device wireless bands, like Wifi, or bluetooth. It's up to the licensee of the stations to decide what is and isn't appropriate, and if the FCC receives a complaint they will investigate.

    64. Re:Why is it even a discussion? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      They already have extra charges to Netflix for the fact that they use a lot of bandwidth which they were already paying for. Comcast was charging them extra because they were using most of what they paid for already, and to give their own services a one-up in competitive pricing. Effectively charging Netflix to have an on-demand service without the service. All companies would mirror the action to get more money.

      Now, if people didn't / don't stop this corporate behavior, it would become standard for behavior for websites that generate a lot of traffic.

      What is to say in 10-15 years down the line after this becomes "normal", that the companies would then decide to charge users for access to "premium" web services? It would be doubling down on popular sites, and increasing the cost of any subscriptions that user's would have to those sites. In that case, ISPs would be quadruple billing for the access instead of the simple double billing (the client and the server) they have now.

      The fact that this can be seen to be happening, gives enough reason for people that support network neutrality to speak up before it becomes a major problem, crippling the economy. I could seriously see companies like Microsoft making deals, so that their traffic is faster than Google's, and for some reason Google's traffic would take a long time to route. This is why all data should be treated equally.

      If the economic value doesn't make you feel fuzzy, how about this argument. When companies start to choose what goes through their networks, they should be held liable for the traffic itself that they choose to let through. If for example I get a virus (for argument sake, say it is a well known type) from even an email or XSS attack sent through their networks, I should be able to hold them responsible for the damage done.

      Aside from those two issues, there wouldn't be an issue if they allowed any competition against their monopoly, as then a regulated (to allow competition) free market would solve the problems, because they'd get less customers than the services that offer the same without those billing and restriction problems.

    65. Re:Why is it even a discussion? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      > They rail against big government and then let the corporations run ramshod over the American people while they're owned lock stock and barrel by corporate lobbyists.

      FTFY

    66. Re:Why is it even a discussion? by sumdumass · · Score: 1

      Lol.. bad laws, abuses of authority but you see no problem because the outcome is something you want. Of course you feel the same way about the NSA spying because they are doing their jobs using the tools they were given. But wait - isn't there a constitutional thing in all this? That's right, in both situations. One giving congress the power to create law and the other restricting unreasonable searches.

      Oh, and in case you didn't know, this review process is part of the tools congress gave the FCC. I don't see how you can object to that. In fact, the FCC was even warned about it before they acted.

    67. Re:Why is it even a discussion? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Yes, they have rules, and must get a franchise. But having a franchise is not the same as being granted a monopoly. In fact, all of the cable franchising ordinances I've seen hve mandated that the franchise be non-exclusive (i.e., not a monopoly) and are specific in saying that there can be other franchisees.

      You probably think that a liquor store that gets a business license to operate in a certain city has been granted a monopoly, too. No, sorry, having to follow a law to be able to operate (a law that is specific in saying that any franchise cannot be a monopoly) is not creating a monopoly.

      It doesn't stop local bureaucrats, politicians, and the companies themselves from stop or delaying and new franchises to the point where it's not cost effective though.

    68. Re:Why is it even a discussion? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Thats why they fund Obamacare, they fund executive amnesty, they haven't stopped horrible Iran nuclear negotiations, they haven't done anything about the IRS targeting political opponents of the administration, they haven't done anything about gun running into Mexico by the administration, and on and on and on.

      Perhaps you could cite a single example where the Republicans have stopped a single thing the Democrats have proposed or done. Sure, they talk about stopping all of it, but in the long run they do nothing to stop it. Which is odd, because people like you come along and call them names for doing EXACTLY what you want them to do.

      Perhaps you should thank them instead of calling them names since they appear to be your friends. The will not stop NN either, but they will probably say they will if they get more votes next election, but everyone knows in the long run NN is all about the Democrats using the FCC to censor speech that is anti-DNC. It will not help you and when you cry that it doesn't just remember, the people that MIGHT have helped you instead helped the DNC because you called them names.

    69. Re:Why is it even a discussion? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Netflix represents the majority of Internet traffic. Not just the biggest, but the majority. Mathematically, making a "swap" peering agreement while carrying Netflix traffic is going to be impossible because the exchange will be asymmetrical.

      For as long as consumer Internet connections have asymmetrical speeds (much higher download bandwidth than upload), there's always going to be asymmetry in peering agreements.

    70. Re:Why is it even a discussion? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The shift of wealth from the majority of people to internet operators.

    71. Re:Why is it even a discussion? by gumbi+west · · Score: 1

      Ok, when did regulation help with communication. Let's see. maybe when we all payed taxes and then funded the creations of TCP/IP and arpanet. Just throwing that one out there.

      Another time government regulation was good--when we didn't allow banks to do anything but be boring with deposit accounts and loans. These rules were lifted in the late 90s and slow but steady growth was turned into an erratic economy.

    72. Re:Why is it even a discussion? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      In any case, Netflix is not being throttled. All traffic through that gateway is seeing congestion, not just them.

      Incorrect. Encrypting the Netflix traffic with a VPN worked around the throttling^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H congestion.

    73. Re:Why is it even a discussion? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Nope, you are still thinking of Republicans...
      I mean really,do you honestly not notice?

      Sure they all do it to some extent, but no one does it better and more thoroughly than the right...
      You must have forgotten that even though they rail against big government, they are actually all for it.

    74. Re:Why is it even a discussion? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Why should congress fix last mile. Your municipality could do it without interference at all. Which is why we should fix it there,because if the locals screw something up, at least we have a chance to actually fix it.

      Until the FCC ruled against the state law prohibiting such restraints, my municipality was actually forbidden from doing what its residents wanted.

      Guess who lobbied for that law. Guess where.

      Are you under the impression that your municipal government is a sovereign entity? It's not in the US, all of them are subject to the whims of the state.

      Do you wish to change that?

      That'll take a Constitutional Amendment, and I believe that is Congress's job for the most part.

      Though sadly, I can't be as convinced of you of the chance to actually fix problems, at best I can accept that some people will be able to move away from them.

      Still, that would be an interesting option, and I'd be willing to try it.

      Hey, several states have ballot options by plebiscite. Why don't you try to get your solution passed in one of those?

    75. Re:Why is it even a discussion? by ClickOnThis · · Score: 4, Informative

      The issue is not open and unfettered internet vs. evil corporate control. It is one set of bureaucrats and corporations against another set of bureaucrats and corporations. Just because they use the words "net neutrality" doesn't mean there is anything neutrality related involved. Remember, the same national politicians got together to give us the Republic-led bipartisan "USA PATRIOT Act", which had absolutely nothing to do with patriotism.

      False equivalence. Just because the Patriot Act was newspeak doesn't mean Net Neutrality is.

      "free and open internet" as we knew it is not an option on the table. The discussion at hand is about how much power Washington will have to pick winners and losers in corporate fights. And who in Washington will wield that power.

      Net Neutrality is not about giving Washington the power to pick winners and losers. It's about keeping that power out of the hands of service-providers.

      Oh, and a few new fees and tacked-on unrelated regulations "just because".

      Citation please?

      --
      If it weren't for deadlines, nothing would be late.
    76. Re:Why is it even a discussion? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The Net Neutraility shilling comes in many flavours. The most popular is actually the confusion shill, who redefines words, introduces inconsistent or new defintions and terminology, and generally derails the conversation by confusing as many people as possible. Oh what the hell

      SHILL TYPE: Confusion Shill
      > "NN will secure a free internet" "No NN in my free internets!". "NN will destroy online anonymity!" "Packet routing is sub-optimal in NN schemes." "NN will cripple small ISPs". "The TPP superseded NN anyway"
      RESPONSE: Ignore extraneous issues. NN is ultimately about money. Cui bono?

    77. Re:Why is it even a discussion? by jriding · · Score: 2

      If that was the case then it would still be illegal to plug in your own phone! PSTN IS STILL UNDER TITLE II.
      The only reason you can even own your own phone and plug it into the phone line is because of title II.
      How do you keep getting to rewrite history to make it suit your agenda!
      A belief is not facts. And just because you REALLY believe something does not make it a fact.

      --
      love the taste, hate the texture
    78. Re:Why is it even a discussion? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The difference with Democrats is that they don't rail.

    79. Re:Why is it even a discussion? by kkoning · · Score: 1

      Title II isn't just something that the Obama administration decided to do arbitrarily. Consider the federal statute defining telecommunications: "The term “telecommunications” means the transmission, between or among points specified by the user, of information of the user’s choosing, without change in the form or content of the information as sent and received." 47 U.S.C. 153 (50). That's exactly what the Internet does. If it wasn't, TLS/IPSEC/L2tp, etc... lots of stuff wouldn't work. Other packet-switched networks were regulated as Title II telecommunications, e.g., Frame Relay. The fact that the Internet is connectionless and globally addressable doesn't change the fact that it's a telecommunications service, just like other packet-switched networks.

      If "network neutrality" like rules hadn't existed with telecommunications networks since the FCC's 1970s-1980s Computer Inquiries, the Internet could have never been commercialized in the first place. You'd still be replying to this comment on a Compuserve-like service run by AT&T.

    80. Re:Why is it even a discussion? by magarity · · Score: 1

      The open internet is one of the most democratizing things we have in a modern society, why is this even up for debate? What benefit would society have in enabling "Fast lanes" or "premium" connections or other nonsense? What do we get protecting commercial interests?

      How would you know the open internet is one of the most democratizing things we have in a modern society? Net neutrality rules were just published to the federal register today so only today does the internet finally, at long last, start to become open? It seems net neutrality is yet another piece of social openness being hunted down by government regulation.

    81. Re:Why is it even a discussion? by whoever57 · · Score: 1

      They HAVE asked Netflix to pay for the capacity upgrade at the border gateways -- capacity that is being used in large part by Netflix and is making Netflix money. Netflix is profiting from a peering agreement that Comcast has to pay for. Seems fair to me that Netflix pays part of the costs of upgrade.

      The cost for Comcast increasing its capacity at the handover point was a few thousand dollars. It wasn't money for upgrades that was holding up the capacity increase, it was money to pay the t[r]oll.

      --
      The real "Libtards" are the Libertarians!
    82. Re:Why is it even a discussion? by ClickOnThis · · Score: 1

      The internet is not a broadcast medium.

      This.

      But alas, turning the internet into a broadcast medium is exactly what ISPs want to do.

      I hope that someday net neutrality also means bandwidth into your home equals bandwidth out of it. Check your service: we don't live in that world today.

      --
      If it weren't for deadlines, nothing would be late.
    83. Re:Why is it even a discussion? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      How about "toll booth lanes"? Probably not pejorative enough for most people.

    84. Re:Why is it even a discussion? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      From Wikipedia (emphasis added):

      The Federal Communications Commission (FCC) regulates "indecent" free-to-air broadcasting (both television and radio). Satellite, cable television, and Internet outlets are not subject to content-based FCC regulation.

    85. Re:Why is it even a discussion? by LaissezFaire · · Score: 0

      Why did you have to rent your phone? Because government regulations and laws enforced a monopoly. Your example is crappy regulation, not a free market system. Yes, after a few decades, the regulation got better. I wonder what we'd have had without those decades of awful regulation?

    86. Re:Why is it even a discussion? by Rutulian · · Score: 5, Interesting

      Uh, no. Netflix, in case you didn't know, is a company, and (non-ISP) companies, much like individuals, purchase internet access from ISPs. Netflix purchased internet access from many upstream providers including Cogent, Level 3, and some CDNs (as well as investing in their own CDN, btw). Peering arrangements are not between companies like Netflix and Comcast. Peering arrangements are between ISPs. That's the first point.

      The second point is that Comcast is not a transit provider. It is a last-mile provider. It will, by definition, have an asymmetrical flow of traffic. This is very much a part of the peering arrangements between Cogent et al. and Comcast. It is not a new change brought on by Netflix.

      This is not about peering arrangements. This is about cable companies. Comcast, in addition to being an ISP, sells cable service. It gets revenue from any content delivered to its subscribers. This market is threatened by Netflix, and so Comcast wants to impose cable-like business arrangements on Netflix, which it sees as a content-provider. If you can't see how this is in opposition to the underlying principles of the internet, you are a fool. As soon as Comcast did it, Verizon had a go too. It wasn't going to take long for all of the last-mile networks to try to turn themselves into cable companies.

      In other news, if you are anywhere near Texas, you would know about the contract dispute between Suddenlink (cable company) and Viacom ( the parent company of Comedy Central and some other channels). Suddenlink was (is) not delivering Comedy Central to its customers. But Suddenlink the ISP knows that its customers can stream Comedy Central from the web, so it is intentionally blocking access to streaming from www.cc.com. In other words, Suddenlink is degrading its ISP service as leverage for negotiations with its cable service. You may say this is an antitrust case, and I may agree. But net neutrality probably solves the problem more efficiently.

      Net neutrality may not be perfect in every way. But to say that there are no problems out there that need to be addressed is just ignorant and head-in-the-sand.

    87. Re:Why is it even a discussion? by LaissezFaire · · Score: 1

      Those laws were bad, so you and I agree. Can you see why some don't trust Congress to fix (or not pass) bad laws, or trust that agencies won't make bad regulations?

    88. Re:Why is it even a discussion? by LaissezFaire · · Score: 1

      Perhaps open roads are pretty democratizing, too. Should we ban toll roads, or high occupancy toll lanes?

    89. Re:Why is it even a discussion? by LaissezFaire · · Score: 1

      Did any companies that backed net neutrality make campaign contributions? If so, are they corrupt?

    90. Re:Why is it even a discussion? by fred911 · · Score: 1

      "Regulate incompetently, fostering an environment of graft and corruption that fucks over the public (this is what the Republicans want)"

      That's quite unfair especially you when you consider how the Clinton's changed the security trading regulations basically undoing regulation created following Black Tuesday.

      Seems to me the Democrats did their fair share of rape and fucking of the public.

      --
      09 F9 11 02 9D 74 E3 5B - D8 41 56 C5 63 56 88 C0 45 5F E1 04 22 CA 29 C4 93 3F 95 05 2B 79 2A B2
    91. Re:Why is it even a discussion? by LaissezFaire · · Score: 0

      You said that a free market "does not truly exist," but the current situation "keeps screwing the customer more and more." So the only way to fix the current awful regulation is better regulators? Good luck with that. Remember, the very first time a net neutrality regulator gives preference over one piece of traffic over another, net neutrality regulation is broken. The regulations are then the exact opposite of what you want. How long do you think that will take to happen?

    92. Re:Why is it even a discussion? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      In Australia they were going to build an NBN (fibre to the home) so you always had a choice who you got for the last connection to the home.
      However now we have been reduced to a crappy system with Fibre to the Node and keeping old copper to the home.
      That so foxtel and co have limited competition from Foxtel

    93. Re:Why is it even a discussion? by Uberbah · · Score: 1

      Like I said the first time: if you had examples of the FCC trying to censor boob shots online, you'd post them. If you had something more than concern trolling and FUD.

      You haven't because you can't. Because that's all you have.

    94. Re:Why is it even a discussion? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Because the reinstatement of feudalism requires unlimited corporate power

    95. Re:Why is it even a discussion? by circletimessquare · · Score: 1, Flamebait

      shhh

      you'll upset the libertarian morons and free market fundamentalists and their ignorant, wrong simpleton's mythology

      --
      intellectual property law is philosophically incoherent. it is your moral duty to ignore it or sabotage it
    96. Re:Why is it even a discussion? by jader3rd · · Score: 2

      Why did you have to rent your phone? Because government regulations and laws enforced a monopoly.

      No, you had to rent your phone because there was only one telephone utility (AT&T), and that's what their business policy was. Do you think a bunch of telephone companies sprang up with interconnectable systems, and then the government decided to force the companies to only allow company approved hardware on the client side of their systems?

    97. Re:Why is it even a discussion? by jader3rd · · Score: 1

      IF You want to fix the "Comcast vs Netflix" problem, fix the last mile problem first. IF consumers actually had a choice in providers, beyond Cable vs others, you'd see better customer service.

      That would be ideal, but given the reality on the ground, that's not going to happen. The FCC can fix Comcast vs Everyone via Title II, it can't fix every municipal ordinance all across the country.

    98. Re:Why is it even a discussion? by jader3rd · · Score: 1

      Why have innovation and free markets when we can have government regulations?

      If you've ever read 'On the Wealth of Nations' (the book that kind of defined free markets), you'll notice how most of the book is laying out the required government regulations needed to create a free market. The two aren't mutually exclusive. A free market depends upon government regulations which prevent incumbent players from destroying the free market.

      Of course there are government regulations which also cripple free markets, but don't kid yourself into thinking that the lack of government regulations are a free market. They're not.

    99. Re:Why is it even a discussion? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Wrong, due to the costs of entry into the market and the amount of tearing up the areas to install it all.

      Without the regulation, there would still be no free market as the market would tend to a natural monopoly as it does now.

      The government didn't mandate the monopoly, the government was the whole reason the monopoly was broken up.

    100. Re:Why is it even a discussion? by Frobnicator · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Yes, its called graft or bribery and is illegal in most other developed countries.

      Funny!

      What other developed countries?

      UK? Campaigners get government funds, political party funds, and unlimited contributions. There have been quite a few scandals in recent years where individuals receive over a quarter million pounds in a single donation, and it is all legal.

      Germany? Again, government funds, plus government-mandated airtime distributed to the candidates. On top of that, individuals get whatever you can buy. No campaign contribution limits to corporations and the first roughly 3000 euro are tax deductible to encourage businesses to buy their local leaders.

      France? Well, there are a huge number of tiny political factions, each well funded and owned by the local businesses. The small parties ensure the elections run favorably by making deals with other political parties (businesses).

      Australia? Three decades ago they changed the law to move toward public funding in an attempt to remove private interests. The law was quickly and quietly revised to continue to allow both. Yet wikipedia claims over the last two decades, corporate donations have gone up 5x, from just under $30M to well over $130M publicly reported and millions more through other sources.

      Italy? In most of the country, including the southern regions, the old families run everything. What most of the world terms "protection money" is considered basically a local tax. Corruption is rampant.

      India? Greece? Just kidding, we all know these are above any form of political corruption.

      --
      //TODO: Think of witty sig statement
    101. Re:Why is it even a discussion? by tlhIngan · · Score: 1

      The open internet is one of the most democratizing things we have in a modern society, why is this even up for debate? What benefit would society have in enabling "Fast lanes" or "premium" connections or other nonsense? What do we get protecting commercial interests?

      Easy, people with money get to make more money.

      You have to remember in our capitalistic society (it's not free market, but it is capital-based), money is power, and those in power want to get more of both.

      Internet fast lanes allows one to do that.

      Democratizing, or rather, re-balancing of power (because it gives those who wouldn't have power, easy access to it) threatens those who have power. Power is almost a zero-sum game - get power and someone inevitably loses it. So letting the proles get access to power means those in power feel threatened.

    102. Re:Why is it even a discussion? by diamondmagic · · Score: 0

      Are you seriously trying to tell me the government has never tried to censor anything, nothing on the Internet?

      And you're trying to tell me they've never tried to censor any part of a telecommunications service?

      Well sorry to burst your bubble, the Telecommunications Act of 1996 has an entire section on censorship of sexually explicit materials:

      TITLE V--OBSCENITY AND VIOLENCE

      `(a) Whoever--
                                      `(1) in interstate or foreign communications--
                                              `(A) by means of a telecommunications device knowingly--
                                                      `(i) makes, creates, or solicits, and
                                                      `(ii) initiates the transmission of,
                                          any comment, request, suggestion, proposal, image, or other
                                          communication which is obscene, lewd, lascivious, filthy,
                                          or indecent, with intent to annoy, abuse, threaten, or
                                          harass another person;
                                              [...]
                          shall be fined under title 18, United States Code, or imprisoned
                          not more than two years, or both.';

      You were saying?

    103. Re:Why is it even a discussion? by diamondmagic · · Score: 1

      Newsflash: Those particular protectionist laws were repealed. The authority is still there, and Title II still tends to protect big corporations over the general welfare. Including the FCC's actions on the ISPs.

    104. Re:Why is it even a discussion? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I can see why you picked the username you have. You sure like to obfuscate truth with lies and smoke screens.

    105. Re:Why is it even a discussion? by LaissezFaire · · Score: 1

      No, I think the FCC limited entry into the phone system to prevent "wasteful duplication" and "needless competition." (http://object.cato.org/sites/cato.org/files/serials/files/cato-journal/1994/11/cj14n2-6.pdf). These are the same arguments against Uber. The regulation system encouraged a monopoly, and then we got one. AT&T had the strength to enforce phone rentals because the government regulations encouraged regional monopolies. Perhaps not on purpose, but that's why the primary measure of a law or regulation is not the intent behind it, but its effects.

    106. Re: Why is it even a discussion? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      We get capitalism. Let the market moderate itself, and remove laws that make it hard to become am ISP.

    107. Re:Why is it even a discussion? by dave420 · · Score: 0

      You probably should do some reading to figure out why most of your post is nonsense. You won't, but you should.

    108. Re:Why is it even a discussion? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      From the http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Communications_Decency_Act

      TITLE V--OBSCENITY AND VIOLENCE
      SUBTITLE A--OBSCENE, HARASSING, AND WRONGFUL UTILIZATION OF TELECOMMUNICATIONS FACILITIES

      That kind of sounds like censorship of phones and Internet to me.

    109. Re:Why is it even a discussion? by dave420 · · Score: 1

      Seeing as that doesn't apply to the internet, you can ignore it and resume the actual discussion.

    110. Re: Why is it even a discussion? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yes. And yes.
      But I can't do anything about that. What I can do is say "which of these two opposing corrupt forces is pursuing an interest which aligns with my own ?" And support that interest. Since there is massive corruption by those whose interests are harmful to the public and no immediately practical way to stop that the only way any public interest will get any concern is when, coincidentally, a corporation has the same interest (for different reasons of course) so pragmatism demands I support them while simultaneously speaking out against corruption. In an ideal democracy only citizens get voices not corporations and measures exist to actively prevent the rich from having louder voices. This makes perfect sense since the interests of the rich are generally harmful to everybody else.

    111. Re: Why is it even a discussion? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Why should democracy be automatically good? The reverse is true: oligarchy is good. Aristocracy is good. Technocracy is good. Democracy is born from the delusional nonsense that people actually know what they need and what is best for them. This is simply not true, it has been demonstrated over and over but "democracy" has become such a sacred cow that it is unpopular to state the uncomfortable truth. And the truth is that democracy does not work, period. It took literally decades to wrestle power back into the hands of the deserving and we're not finished yet but at least now the process is irreversible. Democracy is dying and we should all be thankful for it, including you lowlifers who couldn't even tie your shoelaces without someone explaining it to you step by step.

    112. Re:Why is it even a discussion? by stealth_finger · · Score: 1

      The open internet is one of the most democratizing things we have in a modern society, why is this even up for debate? What benefit would society have in enabling "Fast lanes" or "premium" connections or other nonsense? What do we get protecting commercial interests?

      MORE PROFIT! (for the corps that set the rules at least)

      --
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    113. Re:Why is it even a discussion? by stealth_finger · · Score: 4, Insightful

      It locks in profits for big incumbent players while blocking innovation and competition. And through regulatory capture and revolving-door personnel moves those large incumbent corporations write the rules used to govern them.

      Think of the Treasury Department, where our financial system rules are set by a bunch of Wall Street-bred tax cheats.

      That's GOOD!?!?!?!

      It doesn't though. Look at the way it works in the UK (basically what the FCC are trying to set up) All the backbone infrastructure is owned by BT openreach who sell it onto ISPs. Any one can start an ISP and get lines from openreach for public sale without having to make massive investment in building a network or paying prohibitively high fees to a private owner who can charge what the fuck they want. Therefore there are plenty of ISPs in competition all offering the product to their own niche or with their twist. You can go with BT/Sky/Virgin for full on tv/phone/net packages for up to £100+pcm or you can go with a no frills service like plusnet and get a decent speed line (8mb+) for as little as £2.50pcm or anything inbetween.

      What you guys seem perfectly happy with is one provider owning everything and charging monopoly prices because your other choice is not having it and fuck you. I really don't understand how any of the US public can be for that. It's just as baffling as when a bunch of you lost your shit because the government wanted to offer universal health care to poor people. But we forget good health, like utilities apparently is a privilege not a right in the US, self proclaimed bastion of good and righteousness, that's only for the rich though, everyone else can fuck off.

      --
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    114. Re:Why is it even a discussion? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Traditionally if the telcos don't like something they tell their subscribers that the Federal Government made them charge for it. The extra money goes straight to telco profits, and the subscribers are angry at the federal government.

      e.g. new line item

      Mandatory Federal Network Tax $4.87

      and if anybody tries to sue them over this obvious fraud, they'll say it's their First Amendment Right to lie to customers.

    115. Re:Why is it even a discussion? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Government regulations gave local monopolies to ISPs, therefore the unregulated free market failed and we need regulation!

    116. Re:Why is it even a discussion? by stealth_finger · · Score: 2

      You said that a free market "does not truly exist," but the current situation "keeps screwing the customer more and more." So the only way to fix the current awful regulation is better regulators? Good luck with that. Remember, the very first time a net neutrality regulator gives preference over one piece of traffic over another, net neutrality regulation is broken. The regulations are then the exact opposite of what you want. How long do you think that will take to happen?

      You seem confused. Enabling net neutrality would stop them from giving preferential treatment of one packet over another, if fast/slow lanes are enacted there's no choice but to inspect packets so they can charge and route accordingly. Maybe I'm confused because they seem to have applied the opposite definition to meanings in order to confuse everyone. Basically you want the one that takes ownership of essential infrastructure away from a private corp and put's in the hands of a public entity, a la the power or water grid. Who can then divvy it out to ISPs for a fair price who can then sell it on to consumers without having to recoup monstrous investment costs, thus enabling actual competition in a freeish market that is of benefit to the consumer who gets decent prices and the companies who get to make a fair profit. After all with a bunch of players the price will be what the market will support not what the sole provider dictates.

      --
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    117. Re:Why is it even a discussion? by stealth_finger · · Score: 1

      What problem? The FCC named zero problems. Only hypotheticals that could possibly happen sometime in the future.

      Is that a good reason to let them expand their authority? What if they try to reinstate Broadcast Flag, or shut down sex services like they did with phones using Title II? The ends don't justify the means.

      Yeah until AT&Com want to charge you an extra fifty bucks a month for the 'adult package' allowing access to 'sex services' as you called it. Oh you want to stream your skin flicks? That'll cost extra for streaming bandwidth. Then you'll be crying how they could let this happen.

      --
      Wanna buy a shirt?
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    118. Re:Why is it even a discussion? by stealth_finger · · Score: 1

      lawful content? I don't remember any such stipulation before. How about saying goodbye to Wikileaks? The Pirate Bay?

      Well it's a good job the rest of the world also has internet that can be used. In the UK they've banned access to piratebay and a whole raft of similar sites. Guess what, we can still get on and use every single fucking one because that's how the internet works. What you're doing is trying to say in order to keep that we need to change the way the internet works. Actually when I say we I mean you because the US seems to think it has absolute ownership of it. If this goes into power watch the rest of world route around you and you will be left with a US only net, like NKs filled with only corporate approved messages and advertisement and no doubt you'll pay through the nose for it and proabably say it's the best thing ever.

      --
      Wanna buy a shirt?
      https://www.redbubble.com/people/stealthfinger/shop?asc=u
    119. Re:Why is it even a discussion? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If you honestly believe that the government has the powers under Title 2 , but will keep the "promise" not to do it ... you may be to naive to be on the internet. There has not been a single instance in history of innovation once something has become a government utility. So if you like your internet now, you can keep it ... because it will not ever get any better.

    120. Re:Why is it even a discussion? by stealth_finger · · Score: 1

      You probably have one ISP to choose from. What if they dislike Slashdot and charged you extra for visiting Slashdot?

      Then that's not Internet access. If I pay for Internet access, I expect Internet access.

      Second, why does a hypothetical situation that's never happened justify giving the FCC, home of the nipple-protection-squad, more authority over our Internet?

      .

      How is that not internet access? You pay for internet access you want to able to access the internet, all of it, not some if it, not tiers of it, all of it, regardless. Second that is exactly what the ISPs are trying to get the power to do (which they will with no regulation) and the FCC seems to be trying to prevent. They want as much power over it as they have over the electric grid. You know, like a fucking utility!

      --
      Wanna buy a shirt?
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    121. Re:Why is it even a discussion? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Rich white democrats getting rich from their ivory towers you mean? Comcast is a democrat corp and this "net neutrality" gives them the entire internet just as Bell had the entire phone service when it first became a utility. Democrats put their wallets above what is actually good for the country every single time.

    122. Re:Why is it even a discussion? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      How can you be so naive to history? Tell me what great innovation we have in what is now considered an archaic electrical grid, water/sewage systems, and copper land lines? There has been none, its all reactionary to (by the time we see it) old tech leftovers of what other countries have done.

      They promise not to use the full force of title 2 and you honestly believed them?!? Take a look at your phone bill and see how many "fees" and "taxes" are included on it ... that is what your internet will become , your business be damned.

    123. Re:Why is it even a discussion? by tburkhol · · Score: 1

      I would say the choices are to regulate incompetently one way or another. Your pure driven snow bullshit just means you favor one pack of bureaucrats over another.

      I do prefer one pack of bureaucrats over the other. I prefer the bureaucrats who have to declare any gift more valuable than a cup of coffee to the bureaucrats allowed to accept campaign contributions. I prefer the bureaucrats subject to Inspector General auditing over those with "arm's length," private corporations (PACs) acting for their benefit. I prefer the bureaucrats who are subject to ethics laws over those who write ethics laws.

    124. Re:Why is it even a discussion? by benjfowler · · Score: 1

      Waiting for some gullible brainwashed libertoon to say now that "there's no such thing as market failure".

      I've had idiot college conservatives actually tell that to me with a straight face, in this day and age.

    125. Re: Why is it even a discussion? by stealth.c · · Score: 1

      You're taking for granted that the FCC's new rules are antynomous with "protecting commercial interests." The ISPs will be fine either way, they already had government-granted monopolies. The rules were added at the behest of companies like Netflix, who felt they needed a regulatory cudgel to strengthen their position in price negotiations. Except what the FCC has also done is drop a lot of uncertainty and fear onto the ISP industry. That alone will stifle expansion. Far better would have been to end the idiotic local laws and regs that made monopolies of whichever broadband provider was first to a given market. Google Fiber only rolled out in places where city governments could be coaxed into liberalizing, and behold, Comcast is upgrading speed in those areas for free. Competition works. The market has not failed. The FCC "fixed" the wrong problem.

    126. Re:Why is it even a discussion? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You forget one very important fact. Somebody had to build and maintain that infrastructure. Sorry to burst your bubble, but you wouldn't have had any of your nifty gadgets if somebody hadn't built the system. All of these cheapie companies hitch a ride on that infrastructure. And you might be surprised at how often the big guys have to sue them in order to get paid. And as for per minute charges? How has this changed? Wait a few years to see what regulations and fees get added before judging net neutrality. Because that's what happened with the phone companies. The government didn't regulate to protect the people. Your out of your rabid azz mind if you think that. They regulated to get their share.

      Free? Why does everybody think overhead doesn't exist today? It's higher than ever, and regulation is a huge part of why. So get back to me in a few years after big uncle has tinkered the net silly. I have a hunch you will have changed your mind.

    127. Re: Why is it even a discussion? by tburkhol · · Score: 1

      Actually AT&T did apply results from the labs to the phone system. (They would have been stupid not to, they did way to maximize profit, after all.) In particular, they made huge advances in switching technologies. And how do you know they wouldn't have come out with cell phones?

      Advances in switching technology reduced their costs of doing business. They allowed AT&T to replace armies of switchboard operators with inexpensive electronics. Their foray into wireless communication was Mobile Telephone Service. Real cell phone service was first introduced by NTT, in Japan, 4 years before the US. Some argue that slow adoption of cellular in the US was actually due to FCC regulation of the spectrum, but commercial cell service only became available after AT&T was broken up, and it was offered by one of the regional Baby Bells, not by AT&T.

    128. Re:Why is it even a discussion? by zidium · · Score: 1

      I would certainly like to know why! His post sounds reasonable and above board. Would you care to enlighten us?

      --
      Slashdot Valentines Beta Massacre: iT WORKED! The boycotts killed Beta!!
    129. Re:Why is it even a discussion? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      First, the real fat cats in congress are Democrats. Look it up. They even made insider trading legal for members of congress when they rammed the ACA through.

      Second, I think you need to take a look at who lobbied the administration for net neutrality. You may have read the act, but you ignored the details behind it.

    130. Re:Why is it even a discussion? by homm2 · · Score: 1

      Well, in many or most cases it isn't for lack of trying. In the Senate they still have to contend with Democratic filibusters and even if they can overcome that, they still need to deal with presidential vetoes. They still (unfortunately, from my perspective) have a chance of pulling that off to derail the Iran negotiations.

      If they don't stop net neutrality, that will be why.

    131. Re:Why is it even a discussion? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The problem I think is not the net neutrality. It is that in order to have net neutrality regs, the FCC must have the power to do all manner of things that are regulations from the old POTS voice services from the 1930s. While the FCC is saying it is "declining" to use the powers to impose such regulations, it could in the future impose them. What is needed is legislation to allow the neutrality, but prevent 1930s regs of voice to propagate to the Internet.
      Not everyone trusts the government to be benign in the future. Much history shows such trust is dangerous.

    132. Re:Why is it even a discussion? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It happened because Verizon decided to get all Sue happy when the FCC tried to do the same thing without invoking Title II. The Courts told the FCC, that the only way they have the authority to implement these rules is by classifying ISPs as Title II... it takes time to draft rules and piece together 40+ years of case law to use as examples and references for the rules change. So no, it wasn't due to a political whim, it was because VERIZON didn't like the previous rules, sued and won, and gave the FCC enough information to make sure the same rules not only stuck, but, held up to legal challenges.

    133. Re:Why is it even a discussion? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      comcrap et. al. are squeezing their every last pennies worth from the bri... er... "campaign contributions".

    134. Re:Why is it even a discussion? by dywolf · · Score: 1

      For the umpteenth time, you prove you don't know what you're talking about, with the same BS claims that ignore than Net Neutrality is how the internet ALREADY FUNCTIONS. FCC isn't changing anything. It is preserving the status quo. Shill.

      --
      The guy who said the election was rigged won the presidency with the second-most votes.
    135. Re:Why is it even a discussion? by dywolf · · Score: 1

      And again you act as if the hundreds of examples we keep giving you never happened and don't exist.
      Shill.

      --
      The guy who said the election was rigged won the presidency with the second-most votes.
    136. Re:Why is it even a discussion? by RatherBeAnonymous · · Score: 2

      This is a very simple situation. Comcast is a huge company leveraging its position as Internet gateway for approximately 20 million subscribers to get cash from others trying to provide services to those customers. In particular, they targeted Netflix because it competes with Comcast's cable TV and video on demand services.

      Capacity was never the problem. The interfaces required to upgrade Comcast's interface with Cogent cost a few thousand dollars. Cogent offered to give Comcast those interfaces for free. Netfilx also offered Comcast free caching servers and a royalty free direct peering agreement that would have slashed congestion on the Comcast-Cogent interconnects and reduced both of their costs dramatically. Comcast wasn't interested.

      What Comcast wanted was payola to allow Netflix access to Comcast's subscriber base. Comcast didn't care if that came in the form of Netflix using a CDN (Content Delivery Network), who pay Comcast for interconnects, or for direct payments from Netflix. They just wanted their pound of flesh.

      Incidentally, in 2014 Netflix made about 267 million dollars in profit. Comcast made over 8 billion. I don't know what Netfilx is paying Comcast, but it can't be more than a drop in the bucket that is Comcast's approximately 69 billion dollar annual revenue. I suspect this was more about hurting Netflix than it is about protecting their bottom line.

      Here are some sources backing up the facts and figures.
      http://www.marketwatch.com/inv...
      http://www.marketwatch.com/inv...
      https://gigaom.com/2013/11/11/...
      http://www.multichannel.com/ne...
      http://www.practicalecommerce....

    137. Re:Why is it even a discussion? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      tha'ts because you don't know how to read, or form a cogent thought since your head is so far up your ass you're lacking the oxygen to do so. This was always the case, if a court says a site is unlawful, like hosting kiddie porn, exclusively, the site can be taken down, THIS WAS ALWAYS THE CASE, I REPEAT ALWAYS...ALWAYS........AL FUCKING WAYS

      you pedantic piece of shit. An even then a court has to determine that the only thing the site is for is to distribute illegal content, its not enough that there happens to be a piece of illegal content that can be removed, for the entire site to be taken.

      AGAIN THIS HAS ALWAYS BEEN THE FUCKING CASE YOU MORON.

      stop trying to spread FUD.

    138. Re:Why is it even a discussion? by mrchaotica · · Score: 1

      I was speaking specifically in the context of Net Neutrality. The Democrats have done plenty of "regulating incompetent[ly so as to be] fostering an environment of graft and corruption that fucks over the public" too, but they've done it in other contexts.

      --

      "[Regarding the 'cloud,'] ownership was what made America different than Russia." -- Woz

    139. Re:Why is it even a discussion? by Mariner28 · · Score: 1

      Not quite true. The first cellular service in the US was launched by just prior to the January 1, 1984 divestiture of the Regional Bell Operating Companies (RBOCs - the local service providers of telephone service) from AT&T - the long distance provider. The March 6, 1983 launch was by the future RBOC which would become Ameritech. So while technically not AT&T, it was the spawn of AT&T.

      And one certainly didn't get cellular service back then because you were tired of being overcharged by AT&T. A normal cellular bill back then was way over $200/month - in 1986 dollars. And that got you maybe 60-70 minutes of air time, and didn't include long distance either.

      Back in the day the FCC, through spectrum allocations, mandated that each major future cellular (they weren't called wireless back then) market would be divided into two: the non-incumbent "A" service provider (e.g., like a Cellular One in the NYC metro area) and the incumbent "B" service provider (like NYNEX in this case). So in lots of markets wireless startups were funded by investors who'd make a killing. But in other markets, the non-incumbent carrier was simply another RBOC which was entering into a new territory.

      --
      "A little misunderstanding? Galileo and the Pope had a little misunderstanding."
    140. Re:Why is it even a discussion? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "with intent to annoy, abuse, threaten, or harass another person"

      Hmmm..... doesn't look like censorship...except where it 'harms' someone else.
      Not to mention that simply putting up a website would have to fail BOTH tests in the law not just one.

    141. Re:Why is it even a discussion? by mrchaotica · · Score: 4, Insightful

      The Net Neutrality regulations were a major overstep by the FCC and SHOULD have been a law passed by Congress.

      The Net Neutrality regulations WERE a law passed by Congress! Specifically, Title II of the Communications Act of 1934 (as amended by the Telecommunications Act of 1996, etc.).

      The FCC isn't doing anything "new," it's just reclassifying Internet service providers from one category ("information service" to another ("telecommunications service"). And it's putting them in the category that they should have been in all along!

      In other words, the FCC fucked up in 2002 when it made this ruling (where it exercised "forbearance" by not classifying ISPs as telecommunications services, even though the Ninth Circuit Court of Appeals found that they were in fact telecommunications services), and now it's fixing that fuck-up.

      --

      "[Regarding the 'cloud,'] ownership was what made America different than Russia." -- Woz

    142. Re:Why is it even a discussion? by nehumanuscrede · · Score: 2

      What you guys seem perfectly happy with is one provider owning everything and charging monopoly prices because your other choice is not having it and fuck you. I really don't understand how any of the US public can be for that. It's just as baffling as when a bunch of you lost your shit because the government wanted to offer universal health care to poor people. But we forget good health, like utilities apparently is a privilege not a right in the US, self proclaimed bastion of good and righteousness, that's only for the rich though, everyone else can fuck off.

      A misconception I think. No one is really happy with it, unless you're one of the companies who benefit from it. The problem is, while the voice of the people can be quite loud when it wants to be, the voice of the corporations who keep all of our elected officials well funded are a lot louder. You've heard the saying " Money talks " right ? Yeah. . . they have infinitely more money available to buy legislation than we do.

      We would prefer serious competition in the broadband sector. Unfortunately, thanks to our corruptible leadership, we still have Monopolies ( even if regional ) who wield total control over vast areas and can set the rules and prices as they see fit. They're easy to spot, as are the Rent-A-Congressmen they control. Just look for those leading the charge against the new Title II Regulations.

      As for the Universal Health Care bit, we don't really have it. What we have is a Universal Insurance Plan with piss poor coverage. We don't really want nor need another Insurance Policy to keep up with. What we need is for someone with authority to reign in the Medical Industries ability to set the prices of healthcare well into the ludicrous end of the spectrum. You fix or regulate what they can charge and it becomes easier to implement a healthcare system that could cover everyone with a simple minor tax increase. ( Or, you know, maybe reallocate some of the defense spending we really don't need ) Unfortunately, the same idiots in charge bork it up for everyone because, just like the Corporations in the Telecom sector, HealthCare is big business. As such, they also bribe . . er . . . contribute campaign donations to the same group of idiots running this country which is why their voice is heard over everyone else and why it's Business as Usual over here.

      Trust me when I tell you that the government we have, is definitely not the government we want. The problem is, the corruption is now so engrained within the system, the only way to fix it would be to burn it down and rebuild it from scratch.

    143. Re:Why is it even a discussion? by dywolf · · Score: 2

      Then that's not Internet access. If I pay for Internet access, I expect Internet access.

      Congratulations.
      You just defined the main goal and purpose of Net Neutrality.

      Netflix's traffic isn't being routed any differently than any other company's traffic. Therefore, there can be no Net Neutrality violation.

      Only a paid shill could willfully ignore every example that is continually presented him that proves him wrong.

      --
      The guy who said the election was rigged won the presidency with the second-most votes.
    144. Re:Why is it even a discussion? by dywolf · · Score: 1

      Anyone want to take bets on obfuscant and diamondmagic being part of the same shill campaign?

      --
      The guy who said the election was rigged won the presidency with the second-most votes.
    145. Re:Why is it even a discussion? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Netflix. Comcast. Double-charging. That happened.

      You sure about that?
      www.forbes.com/sites/larrydownes/2014/11/25/how-netflix-poisoned-the-net-neutrality-debate/

    146. Re:Why is it even a discussion? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      That statement is actually quite valid. We do have a God given right to try to make money for our efforts.

      Your sarcasm eludes that you don't believe this, so the alternative statement is:

      Everyone has a God given right to get something from workers and companies without compensation. (or your personal definition of 'fair')

      This is a typical 'anti-profit' progressive view of someone who doesn't realize:
      1) The pursuit of becoming rich drives people to work hard and be productive in society; this makes opportunities for others. This is called Capitalism.
      2) Money is not a finite resource, just because there are mega rich people doesn't mean they are keeping it from others
      3) Life is not fair and you can't make it that way

      This is not addressing the subject matter or details about the topic at hand, just a education to the anti-Capitalism fanatics who feverishly tap away on the expensive electronic devices and the Internet. You know - the technologies that Capitalism created.

    147. Re:Why is it even a discussion? by JustSomeProgrammer · · Score: 1

      Japan used to have decent regulation around this if I remember correctly. It might have changed, but I think it limited the amount of airtime any given politician could have.

    148. Re:Why is it even a discussion? by Archangel+Michael · · Score: 1

      Again, the problem is that you have people passing laws trying to solve problems at the Federal level that can easily be fixed with some foresight at the local level. Yeah, it isn't uniform there, but rather than having "one size fits all" that doesn't work the same in NYC as it does in Casper WY.

      This is why Libertarian view of the world is best, because we don't get crappy laws that hurt everyone, simply because a few people want them. Bullshit laws are created by the same process that Net Neutrality laws were, and they interfere with businesses all the time. And often because someone said "I don't like what ________ company is doing*, we must have a law to stop them".

      *Anti competitive Comcast vs Netflix

      I don't like what Comcast did to Netflix anymore than the next guy. I just hate what government does in response worse. Fix the damn problem where it exists, in the last mile, and solve the problem forever, without a single federal law, rule or regulation being created. Laws that will remain on the books, long after their usefulness ends.

      --
      Agent K: A *person* is smart. People are dumb, stupid, panicky animals, and you know it.
    149. Re:Why is it even a discussion? by Archangel+Michael · · Score: 1

      No, when liberals want laws to prevent corporatation X from doing business thing Y, it is the start of the process that allows Corporation X to petition government to prevent Corporation Z from doing things that Corporation X doesn't like.

      Libertarians realize that most of those laws, restricting otherwise legitimate business practices simply because "I don't like what they are doing" allows for all sorts of interference into the free and open marketplace.

      Mind you, there is no need for Net Neutrality laws at all, if you solve the last mile problem, and give people a real choice. In addition, you're also opening up the market to new products and services we can't even imagine.

      Solving the problem where it is, always works best. The problem isn't national problem, it is last mile (in this case)

      --
      Agent K: A *person* is smart. People are dumb, stupid, panicky animals, and you know it.
    150. Re:Why is it even a discussion? by Archangel+Michael · · Score: 1

      Last mile is not a natural monopoly. Last mile is just like streets and sewers (municipal), and solvable without Federal legislation. You bring fiber to the house, municipally, you solve the problem. Don't let a private enterprise have exclusive rights to the municipal infrastructure.

      It is solvable. I have a plan that works. It is just that nobody wants to even try it.

      --
      Agent K: A *person* is smart. People are dumb, stupid, panicky animals, and you know it.
    151. Re:Why is it even a discussion? by Archangel+Michael · · Score: 1

      given the reality on the ground

      Reality on the ground can change, if enough people actually want it to change, and there is leadership strong enough to walk it through to the end. I'm offering my solution, it is cookie cutter easy, it just takes one city to set it up to prove it works. And it will work, because it is simple fix. Build the fiber out to every home, to a COLO. The rest can be handled by fees of those that use the service, and the providers.

      --
      Agent K: A *person* is smart. People are dumb, stupid, panicky animals, and you know it.
    152. Re:Why is it even a discussion? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      They didn't try to charge Netflix more to route packets. They were not wanting to pay for upgrades for Netflix. Seems to me that the argument is that all of Comcast's customers should pay for upgrades because the few that are also Netflix's customers wanted it.

      Serious question here (and yes I realize it's not a perfect comparison). If Amazon increases FedEx traffic to a specific city, who pays for the extra trucks and drivers? Does FedEx just eat the cost or does it increase prices that Amazon pays (or Amazon's customers)

    153. Re:Why is it even a discussion? by StewBaby2005 · · Score: 1

      More proof that the GOP doesn't care about 99% of the US public, just the 1% that pay them.

    154. Re: Why is it even a discussion? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      This has been happening to the Internet slowly over time... initially gov and edu use only. Later came geek frontiersmen. Then came commercialization (read as plastering everywhere with ads). Not that I like it much but this is the next logical step. I'm suprised that it has taken so long.

    155. Re:Why is it even a discussion? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      What you guys seem perfectly happy with is one provider owning everything and charging monopoly prices because your other choice is not having it and fuck you. I really don't understand how any of the US public can be for that. It's just as baffling as when a bunch of you lost your shit because the government wanted to offer universal health care to poor people. But we forget good health, like utilities apparently is a privilege not a right in the US, self proclaimed bastion of good and righteousness, that's only for the rich though, everyone else can fuck off.

      Its the same problem that results in "debate" on both issues (as well as a host of others). The republicans have co-opted the religious by pandering to them on a host of issues (right to worship, anti-abortion, etc). If you support a religion (at least any variant of Christianity that I'm familiar with), you are used to "just taking their word for it" and defending the guys in charge based on the perception of shared ideals and God's will. So there is no "intelligent discussion" behind supporting things like Net Neutrality...most of these (R) types couldn't even come up with a self-serving reason to do so! They stand to be hurt like everyone else!!! But no, they support Senator (R) because he knows marriage is between a man and a woman.

      We get the government we deserve.

    156. Re:Why is it even a discussion? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      In most of the western world you can not buy political ads, especially around election time. This makes it extremely limited what campaign funds can possible be spend on.

    157. Re:Why is it even a discussion? by Obfuscant · · Score: 1

      It doesn't stop local bureaucrats, politicians, and the companies themselves from stop or delaying and new franchises to the point where it's not cost effective though.

      The part that makes it not cost effective is not the incumbent or the politicians, it is the market itself.

      Comcast has a city wired according to the franchise requirements. Charter decides they want to compete in that market. First, they have to wire it to the same franchise requirements. Then they have to find subscribers. Now, they COULD offer services much better than Comcast and hope they get a sufficient number of subs to cover the fixed costs. Maybe. Or they don't get enough subs and lose money until they shut down. The latter is much more likely when you're splitting a fixed market with another company.

      The FACT remains that cable companies are not granted monopolies, and NO ISP has been granted one. Not a single one.

    158. Re:Why is it even a discussion? by tmosley · · Score: 1

      "The two aren't mutually exclusive"

      Sorry, but they are. If you have government regulations, then you don't have a free market. You have something else. Stop destroying the meaning of words, please.

    159. Re:Why is it even a discussion? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Prohibiting the companies that own the last mile from owning other network infrastructure would be a good idea, but it wouldn't eliminate the need for net neutrality regulation. If I own the last mile, I can install a filter to randomly drop packets to and from Netflix with sufficient frequency to make Netflix service unpleasant to use. Then I can call up Netflix, and explain how much more attractive their service would be to customers if I hadn't programmed my routers to drop so many of their packets. Of course, Netflix needs to understand that maintaining a network like mine isn't cheap. Even after I removed the Netflix packet dropping code from my routers, I would still face significant ongoing network monitoring costs to ensure that I didn't accidentally reinstall this code. But surely Netflix can see the benefit of paying me to do this.

    160. Re:Why is it even a discussion? by Skynyrd · · Score: 1

      Because the republicans are more for sale than the democrats are. How anybody can support a party that is so obviously anti-citizen amazes me.

      Yeah, the dems fuck up all the time as well, but it's the republicans who want to end decent health care, net neutrality, sell our national resources. If they can make a buck by fucking us, they will (and do).

    161. Re:Why is it even a discussion? by Obfuscant · · Score: 1

      Uh, no. Netflix, in case you didn't know, is a company,

      Yes, I think we know that.

      Peering arrangements are not between companies like Netflix and Comcast. Peering arrangements are between ISPs. That's the first point.

      Yes, we know that. What's the point you are trying to make? That Comcast as an ISP cannot ask a heavy outside user of their backbone to help pay for upgrades? Of course they can.

      The second point is that Comcast is not a transit provider. It is a last-mile provider.

      Comcast has its own backbone in addition to the last mile plant. It's two things in one. It has peering agreements with another backbone where Netflix the company gets its internet access. That border is congested because Netflix is sending data through it in large volumes. Netflix is profiting from this traffic, and is paying their ISP -- but not Comcast, who is now expected to upgrade their border connections to make Netflix happy and more profitable. Who pays for that?

      In a traditional peering arrangement the traffic is bidirectional and costs would balance out. With Netflix traffic, that's no longer true. It's not one Comcast customer, and it isn't fair to all the Comcast customers to ask them to pay for someone else's huge use of bandwidth, so they're asking the source of the data. Comcast has a death by a thousand cuts. They can either go after the individual cuts, or find the guy wielding the knife.

      This is not about peering arrangements.

      Yes, when you talk about Netflix and Comcast in the same sentence, it most certainly is about peering. That's where the problem is.

      This is about cable companies.

      Uhh, no. Neither "net neutrality" as a concept nor "net neutrality" as enacted by the FCC ruling is about cable companies. Both are about ISPs. Cable television is a different service. ONE method of internet delivery uses the cable television backbone. There are two other pre-existing wires that go to almost every home: power and telephone. Both are methods of internet delivery, too. And the FCC ruling applies to ISPs no matter what means of delivery is used. If your ISP uses carrier pidgeons, it is covered by the FCC ruling.

      It wasn't going to take long for all of the last-mile networks to try to turn themselves into cable companies.

      What an interesting statement.

      But Suddenlink the ISP knows that its customers can stream Comedy Central from the web, so it is intentionally blocking access to streaming from www.cc.com.

      So go to a different ISP. No, Suddenlink is wrong for doing that, but it has nothing to do with, and is in no way similar to, the Comcast/Netflix issue. Comcast isn't blocking anything.

      Net neutrality may not be perfect in every way.

      Net neutrality as a concept is fine. When you refer to the FCC ruling as "net neutrality" that's where there's a problem. One can be a staunch advocate for net neutrality but still be opposed to the federal regulations now imposed on all ISPs in an attempt to solve the problems of a few.

      But to say that there are no problems out there that need to be addressed

      And I said that when? Never. Maybe smaller words would help. 1) Comcast the cable company has not been granted a monopoly. It is a defacto monopoly through economic causes. 2) Comcast the ISP is not a monopoly of any kind. 3) The FCC ruling will not solve the issues created by large data sources clogging gateway routers. 4) The FCC ruling does allow ISPs to censor content. 5) The FCC ruling does nothing to break up or fix monopoly status for any defacto (or dejure) monopoly currently in existence.

    162. Re:Why is it even a discussion? by Obfuscant · · Score: 1
      You'd lose, but you're doing very well at trying to marginalize opinions you don't agree with. Kind of like the algorithm that would allegedly identify trolls based on an unfriendly reception in social media. The FCC ruling being a bad idea is an unpopular opinion here, so of course anyone who expresses that opinion must be a troll or a shill.

      Where is net neutrality when you need it?

    163. Re:Why is it even a discussion? by sumdumass · · Score: 1

      It was political whim. The FCC has never taken the position other than internet was information services or the equivalent. They have looked at it and took that position since the 1970s- until recently.

      Surprisingly, in order for the FCC to defend any challenges to the move, They will have to explain why every version of it before got it wrong and how at least two of reports on universal access was wrong in their determination that congress did not intend the internet to be regulated and how congress copied their determination from the computers II working paper.

    164. Re:Why is it even a discussion? by Snorkle+Z · · Score: 1

      I choose France. The two-party system is destroying the U.S.

    165. Re:Why is it even a discussion? by Rutulian · · Score: 1

      In a traditional peering arrangement the traffic is bidirectional and costs would balance out. With Netflix traffic, that's no longer true

      You are missing the point. The traffic for Comcast will always be less bidirectional than for a transit provider, because they are a last-mile provider. In other words, the majority of traffic entering Comcast's network is for delivery to its customers, not transit to another network. This has always been true and has not changed because of Netflix.

      That border is congested because Netflix is sending data through it in large volumes. Netflix is profiting from this traffic, and is paying their ISP -- but not Comcast, who is now expected to upgrade their border connections to make Netflix happy and more profitable. Who pays for that?

      Nonsense. If this were about a few thousand dollars worth of hardware upgrades, it could have been settled a long time ago in a number of different ways,
      1) Comcast and Cogent renegotiate their peering arrangement. This doesn't happen because the peering arrangement actually works fine. Cogent can definitely pass the costs of a new peering arrangement back up to Netflix. This hasn't happened.
      2) Level 3 offers to buy Comcast routers for their congested points. This has happened. Comcast refused.
      3) Netflix offers to host a CDN within Comcast's network, paying all the costs of maintaining and running that CDN. This has happened. Comcast refused.
      4) Comcast asks its customers to pay more for the extra bandwidth they are using. This hasn't happened.

      Instead, Comcast went with,
      5) Let the service degrade to such a point that Netflix has no other option but to pay their extortion fee.

      Don't be fooled. Comcast knows exactly what they are doing. They don't want Netflix competing with their cable and video-on-demand services, that they sell to the same customers that also buy their ISP service. They want a cut of Netflix's profits, the same way a traditional cable delivery arrangement is made with other content providers.

      This article breaks it down pretty well,
      http://qz.com/256586/the-insid...

      Pay attention to the figure at the end. After Netflix started paying, quality returned to 720p within one week. There are no hardware issues here. Comcast flips a switch and it is done.

      Uhh, no. Neither "net neutrality" as a concept nor "net neutrality" as enacted by the FCC ruling is about cable companies. Both are about ISPs. Cable television is a different service.

      You are missing the point again. Comcast is a cable company. It makes money selling cable channels and service to its customers. Those same customers also buy ISP service. Comcast has seen demand for cable decrease as online video has become more popular: Hulu, Netflix, Amazon, Apple, etc. This is a problem for Comcast because it makes a lot more money, and has a much stronger negotiating position, with its cable services than its ISP service. It doesn't want to lose the control it has over content providers on its cable service to "the Internet".

      It wasn't going to take long for all of the last-mile networks to try to turn themselves into cable companies.

      What an interesting statement.

      Verizon, not being a traditional cable company, does want to sell their own video-on-demand service. So it makes complete sense that they would be in the same boat as Comcast. As soon as there is precedence for differential agreements on content, every ISP will want a piece of the action. Don't think Comcast will be the only one trying to get a piece of Netflix.

      So go to a different ISP.

      Sure, as soon as there is another one in my area (not seeing that happen any time so

    166. Re:Why is it even a discussion? by siliconsmiley · · Score: 1

      More freedom. And by more freedom I mean more freedom of speech. And by more freedom of speech I mean shut up and get your wallet.

    167. Re:Why is it even a discussion? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Maybe you should call your provider. My internet is certainly not broken.

      Net neutrality may "fix" that, but so far, it's been great.

    168. Re:Why is it even a discussion? by dywolf · · Score: 1

      well said

      --
      The guy who said the election was rigged won the presidency with the second-most votes.
    169. Re:Why is it even a discussion? by dywolf · · Score: 1

      I smell a shill.

      --
      The guy who said the election was rigged won the presidency with the second-most votes.
    170. Re:Why is it even a discussion? by stealth_finger · · Score: 1

      Trust me when I tell you that the government we have, is definitely not the government we want. The problem is, the corruption is now so engrained within the system, the only way to fix it would be to burn it down and rebuild it from scratch.

      Well, seems like the situation is misreported over here (big surprise) if that's true your gov says fuck you even more than I thought, Every time I think how bad the government over here in the UK is I'm always grateful it's not as bad as the US gov. US politics seems to be the most fucked up incomprehensible mess probably unique in all of space and time. I wouldn't be surprised if something did tip the scales to trigger US 2.0, but then it would probably turn out to be a CIA coup or some ultra mega rich guys trying to kickstart the NWO.

      --
      Wanna buy a shirt?
      https://www.redbubble.com/people/stealthfinger/shop?asc=u
    171. Re:Why is it even a discussion? by diamondmagic · · Score: 1

      You say you have hundreds of examples, yet you have yet to name one example. Just one example that the FCC rules would have stopped.

      Just one.

      Go on, I'm waiting.

      Shill.

    172. Re:Why is it even a discussion? by diamondmagic · · Score: 1

      Did you bother to read my link?

      The Communications Decency Act of 1996 (CDA), also known by some legislators as the "Great Cyberporn Panic of 1995", was the first notable attempt by the United States Congress to regulate pornographic material on the Internet. In 1997, in the landmark cyberlaw case of Reno v. ACLU, the United States Supreme Court struck the anti-indecency provisions of the Act.

      Need any more citations?

    173. Re:Why is it even a discussion? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Lobbied where? The point is to leave it to the local states and municipalities -- closer to the people. Under the Constitution, the Federal Government actually has zero power to interfere in local business with municipalities. It's only because we bow to unconstitutional acts that it continues.

    174. Re:Why is it even a discussion? by diamondmagic · · Score: 1

      You can repeat yourself all you want, it doesn't make it true.

    175. Re:Why is it even a discussion? by LaissezFaire · · Score: 1

      I understand the bumper sticker version of net neutrality says that every packet is equal under they eyes of the regulator, and will be treated exactly the same. VOIP 911 emergency calls must be treated exactly the same as pornography.

      The second part of your paragraph doesn't make any sense. I certainly don't want to take private ownership of the Tubes and give it to the government. And certainly not to then lease out to companies to charge prices set by regulators for particular rates. One, you can't know the fair price unless you have a free market, which obviously isn't in place in your proposed scenario. Two, with government owning the infrastructure, we've then pretty much abandoned innovation. Sure, if smart techies got to write and implement the regulations and the infrastructure we might get there, but there's no way that happens in this scenario. Remember, we're talking about the current failure of the existing regulation not being good enough. What magic wand is going to make it better?

    176. Re:Why is it even a discussion? by geminidomino · · Score: 1

      Without federal regulation, yes. Without local government involvement, no. Without easement access (which is granted by the municipal government), the company running the fiber to the house needs to negotiate a separate land usage deal with every property owner between the house and the connection point.

    177. Re:Why is it even a discussion? by diamondmagic · · Score: 1

      If in my universe, the only people who were both critical of the unchecked expansion of government power and welcoming of basic Internet engineering principles all at the same time, were those who were paid, I might reach the same conclusion.

      Reality check, though: We're not in your universe anymore.

      I don't get paid to post on Slashdot, and I doubt anyone else does, but even if I did, that doesn't justify a smear campaign.

    178. Re:Why is it even a discussion? by diamondmagic · · Score: 1

      You're posting a lot of accusations in this thread today. Don't you have a job? Or is someone paying you to say such inflammatory things without positively contributing to the discussion?

    179. Re:Why is it even a discussion? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The reason for debate is the solution this administration came up with is considered by many as VERY bad. I'm for net neutrality. I'm not for hundreds of pages and an essential carte blanche for the FCC to do whatever they want regarding the Internet. Obama presented 4 points he wanted in net neutrality, then suggested a solution involving thousands of things as they are covered as a common carrier. My problem is not with net neutrality, it is confusing net neutrality with this FCC over-reach. I think what we got is worse than nothing.

      For example, it puts the ISPs under the section that allows the FCC to force an ISP to put service in an area that is not cost effective.

      It allows a carrier to sue another without any indication of damages. This could stop a small carrier from starting up services in an area another carrier might want to take over sometime in the future.

      The degree of possible regulation that was enabled to accomplish a limited goal doesn't make any sense.

    180. Re:Why is it even a discussion? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Funny!

      What other developed countries?

      UK? [..]

      Germany? [..]

      France? [..]

      Australia? [..]

      Italy? [..]

      India? Greece? Just kidding, we all know these are above any form of political corruption.

      That isn't the extent of developed countries.
      I'm no expert, but I think Canada has a controlled contribution model?

    181. Re:Why is it even a discussion? by stealth_finger · · Score: 1

      What I described is basically how it works in the UK, and it works pretty well thanks. openreach sell line to ISPs who sell it on to users. Because an ISP doesn't have to make massive inverstments on network infrastructure or pay prohibitively high fees practically anyone can start an ISP and offer service. Its on them to decide what to charge but you can get packages for very cheap, very expensive and everything inbetween. The only kicker is you have to have a ~£15pcm line rental regardless who you go with.

      Here have a look what you could've won. http://www.broadbandchoices.co... Out of the 6 featured packages on the front page when I went on 3 were offering broadband for £0.00 a month + Line rental. Does that support your lack of competition, higher government monopoly price, theory. To be fair though the US gov would probably fuck it up royal and make it worse so....sucks to be you guys.

      --
      Wanna buy a shirt?
      https://www.redbubble.com/people/stealthfinger/shop?asc=u
    182. Re:Why is it even a discussion? by stealth_finger · · Score: 1

      Oh and unlimited downloads is the norm too. You have to really mess it up to get on a line with a download limit.

      --
      Wanna buy a shirt?
      https://www.redbubble.com/people/stealthfinger/shop?asc=u
    183. Re:Why is it even a discussion? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      But it should be a local monopoly that provides the physical connection only and supported by infrastructure fees. The service should be third party with a broad choice of providers. Last mile to a colo as a previous poster said and let the service providers compete to see who's network you get connected to there, ditto for the (cable) TV service.

    184. Re:Why is it even a discussion? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Funny!

      What other developed countries?

      Just because laws are ignored by a corrupt government does not mean that those laws don't exist. The United States has laws against murder, but police get away with it all the time, just watch the evening news.

    185. Re:Why is it even a discussion? by MitchDev · · Score: 1

      Ban ALL campaign contributions, and bar office holders from working after serving in office (to prevent "There's a cushy job at the end of your term if you vote for this!")

    186. Re: Why is it even a discussion? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Because that was part of the deal to create "regulated monopoly" after WWII in order to keep the phone system in private hands. Cell phones would have eventually come out without their labs as for every invention, someone else thought of it, but missed getting it to patent first.

  3. Dumbasses. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

    I say this as a conservative. The Republican establishment are dumbasses who saw that the Democrats support NN, so the Republicans feel they need to oppose it by default. If the D's came up with a bill abolishing 50% of welfare spending, and affirming individuals' rights to carry arms at all times in all locations, the R's would oppose it just because.

    1. Re:Dumbasses. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Interesting

      I'm pretty sure that has worked both ways. Obamacare is a massive tax increase (*cough* fine) on the working (and non-working) poor yet Democrats were all for it and Republicans were against it. Politics in America is just rooting for bad teams at this point. People get all excited when their team wins but in the end.. the people and country lose.

    2. Re: Dumbasses. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      The problem with what you have said is that some people are finally having to pay for not taking financial responsibility for their healthcare. It's not just a tax, it's an attempt to offset the cost of the uninsured to taxpayers and finally encourage the uninsured to finally get legit.

    3. Re:Dumbasses. by Darinbob · · Score: 1

      Yup. American politics, like any politics, is all about the game. It's a sporting contest and they're getting the fan base lined up to cheer for them and boo for the other side. Except that they're taking this much more seriously than sporting games. After all, I can get my office mate to actually admit "ok, I don't really hate the Cowboys", but you'll never get a Republican or Democrat member of congress to admit that they other side might be composed of actual decent people.

      The sports game is getting so heated up that they feel they *must* pick sides on every issue. There is nothing to agree upon, they'd probably disagree on the color of the money if it came to a vote. Common ground is in the forbidden zone. So Net Neutrality becomes yet another issue about Us versus Them.

    4. Re:Dumbasses. by footNipple · · Score: 1

      "I say this as a conservative..."

      You're not a conservative, you're a tactician :-) I can tell by the claims you go on to make. âoeMake the enemy live up to its own book of rules.", eh?

    5. Re:Dumbasses. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      so the Republicans feel they need to oppose it by default.

      Give these people some credit. Politicians who are in office and have been elected a couple times might not be especially smart, but they ain't dumb. They've shown that they're at least decent at managing their own careers.

      There are four things that matter a lot to politicians, in roughly descending order:
      1. What the voters want them to do
      2. What the money people (big money, not talking about $100 checks) want them to do
      3. What party leadership wants them to do (b/c they control committee assignments, etc)
      4. What the politician personally thinks is the right thing to do

      But there's a catch. #1 only applies to voters in their state or district, unless they're running for higher office. And if most voters don't care about a certain issue, such as NN, then it's on to the #2 criteria, and so forth.

    6. Re: Dumbasses. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I've been unuinsured for the past three years. I've seen a doctor once since then. I paid the bill. If that cost you anything then take it up with the doctor's office, not my tax return.

    7. Re:Dumbasses. by Phreakiture · · Score: 1

      Evidence of what you say: Around 1989 or so, the (conservative) Heritage Foundation proposes a mechanism for providing health care. A little over a decade later, (Republican) Mitt Romney successfully implements it in his home state while sitting as Governor. A few years later, (Democrat) Barrack Obama goes to implement it at a national level, and the Republican response is to do a 180, and try 54 times to shoot it down, cripple it, or otherwise turn it into a clusterfuck because they can't just let a Democrat succeed at anything.

      --
      www.wavefront-av.com
    8. Re:Dumbasses. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Your recollection of history regarding complete Democrat support for the ACA is inaccurate.

    9. Re:Dumbasses. by david_thornley · · Score: 1

      I'm rather hoping that Obama comes out strongly in favor of oxygen, and the Republican leadership comes out strongly in favor of cholera-free water. The survivors should be halfway reasonable.

      --
      "When you have eliminated the unacceptable, whatever is left, however improbable, must be the truthiness" - Holmes
  4. whose behind it. by neghvar1 · · Score: 0

    add I'll bet that those republicans introducing the bill are on telcom's off-the-record payroll.

  5. Back, Jack, and do it again... by Tablizer · · Score: 1

    The GOP have been and will be re-voting to overturn ACA and Net Neutrality so often they need ACA for their carpal tunnel syndrome.

    1. Re:Back, Jack, and do it again... by TheGratefulNet · · Score: 1

      the republicans are the groucho marx of this decade:

      whatever it is, I'm against it!

      just wish it was funny...

      --

      --
      "It is now safe to switch off your computer."
    2. Re:Back, Jack, and do it again... by Tablizer · · Score: 1

      I knew it! Proof Republicans are Marxists!

  6. "to review new federal regulations" by YrWrstNtmr · · Score: 1, Interesting

    So:
    Some Federal agency serves up some rules on whatever
    Congress, who is actually in charge of passing laws, says, "Hey, wait a minute. Shouldn't we have looked at this first?"

    This seems to be one of those "We have to pass it to see what's in it." type of deals.

    I am NOT saying the Republicrats are all above board in what they're doing and why ($$$), but it does kind of seem to be in their bailiwick to investigate before things like this are approved or passed.

    1. Re:"to review new federal regulations" by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      You are right. That's the way it works and the system was designed to represent the people.

      It doesn't anymore.

      The system represents big business and the well connected. And the problem that most of us have is that after something was actually done for the benefit us little people (and of course the big corps who will benefit too - NetFlix and Google), it will more than likely be removed because telecoms, ISPs and cable companies have more sway with our government than we little people have. It's a prime example how our government really doesn't represent us when it counts. And it's why I am extremely cynical.

    2. Re:"to review new federal regulations" by rminsk · · Score: 1

      This seems to be one of those "We have to pass it to see what's in it." type of deals.

      The complete quote is “But we have to pass the bill so that you can find out what is in it – away from the fog of the controversy.” Which is means when people see what is in the bill, they will like it. So I agree. We should implement the new regulations - away from the fog of the controversy - so we can see what is in it.

    3. Re:"to review new federal regulations" by Anubis+IV · · Score: 5, Informative

      That's not really what happened here though. Congress long ago gave the FCC the authority to classify communications, establish rules for them, and enforce those rules...which is exactly what the FCC has been doing all along.

      Congress didn't bat an eye when the FCC used their authority to (re-)classify cable, DSL, and wireless broadband in 2002, 2005, and 2007, respectively, under Title I of the Telecommunications Act, even though Title II had applied to some of those previously. After all, it was a burgeoning industry, so the lighter touch afforded by Title I made more sense, and there were other laws on the books to prevent the worst of the nasty things those companies might do.

      Congress didn't bat an eye when the FCC used their authority to establish policy regarding net neutrality in 2005, establish ancillary regulations piecemeal over the years, or establish stronger protections for net neutrality in 2010. After all, as these companies were getting bigger, it was becoming more and more important to ensure that they acted in ways that were fair, and with the previous rules protecting against nasty things expiring, it was time to establish new ones.

      Congress didn't bat an eye when the FCC used their authority to enforce fines against ISPs in response to nasty things they were doing. After all, them's the rules.

      But then the Supreme Court slapped down one of the rules over a procedural issue, saying that if the FCC wanted to enforce that rule, they'd first need to reclassify those communications under Title II. The FCC attempted to work with the ISPs to come up with a middle-ground, but the ISPs refused to budge, so the FCC finally went and did exactly what the Supreme Court had suggested: they used their Congressionally-granted authority to reclassify those communications under Title II.

      And now, suddenly, Congress is throwing a hissy fit. Why? Because, as it turns out, it isn't a burgeoning industry made up of companies like Prodigy and CompuServe still. Instead, it's made up of massive media and telecommunications conglomerates like Comcast, AT&T, and Verizon with hundreds of billions of dollars on the line, and they are not happy with having an appropriate classification applied to them, given that it's a lot more fun to be a misbehaving behemoth.

      The text of the rules has been public for months, even though it hadn't been added to the Federal Register yet. This isn't a "we have to pass it to see it" situation at all. And Congress has no good reason for sticking their noses into this situation, unless you consider the millions and millions of dollars they're receiving to be a good reason.

    4. Re:"to review new federal regulations" by SillyHamster · · Score: 2

      And now, suddenly, Congress is throwing a hissy fit. Why? Because, as it turns out, it isn't a burgeoning industry made up of companies like Prodigy and CompuServe still. Instead, it's made up of massive media and telecommunications conglomerates like Comcast, AT&T, and Verizon with hundreds of billions of dollars on the line, and they are not happy with having an appropriate classification applied to them, given that it's a lot more fun to be a misbehaving behemoth.

      The FCC answers to Congress. When your boss is not happy with your work, your boss is not throwing a "hissy fit".

      Also note that there are corporations both for and against Net Neutrality. I hope you don't think that Google, Netflix, and Facebook pushing Net Neutrality is purely out of the goodness of their hearts. They're pushing rules that benefit themselves ... and not necessarily the end-users.

    5. Re:"to review new federal regulations" by Anubis+IV · · Score: 3, Insightful

      The FCC answers to Congress.

      No, it doesn't. The FCC is an independent agency of the United States. While it may have been established and granted its authority by Congress, and while it may fall under the Executive Branch, it answers neither to the President nor to Congress, except inasmuch as the President nominates individuals to fill vacancies for commissioner seats and the Senate confirms them.

      Also note that there are corporations both for and against Net Neutrality. I hope you don't think that Google, Netflix, and Facebook pushing Net Neutrality is purely out of the goodness of their hearts. They're pushing rules that benefit themselves ... and not necessarily the end-users.

      Oh, sure, and that's a fair point that I entirely agree with. That said, what I was getting at is that Congress is getting involved this time around because there are major political contributions influencing decisions, and if you use those links I provided to see how much the companies you listed have been contributing, what you'll quickly find is that Google is the only one in the ballpark of the telecoms. Facebook is barely a blip and Netflix isn't even listed. These ISPs are pumping massive amounts of money into Washington to buy votes, and it's working.

    6. Re:"to review new federal regulations" by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Minor correction for you: it was the DC Circuit appellate court that ruled in Verizon v FCC. The FCC didn't bother to appeal to SCOTUS, and instead just followed the court's recommendation to reclassify, as you said.

    7. Re:"to review new federal regulations" by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      This isn't a "we have to pass it to see it" situation at all.

      Beg to differ. I agree pretty much with the rest of your comment. But on this you are misleading IMHO. I haven't read all 400 pages, but I skimmed it all, and there is one section where they basically 'forbeared' (but not literally and legally here) from taking any stance on any previously disputed interpretation of rules (or something like that). So we won't actually know what the hell the evasive fucking weaselspeak means until the rules are in effect, and the FCC has to actually decide if an alleged violation is an alleged violation. Even if the FCC confirmed an alleged violation, there is always the golden loophole- just call your shit some other kind of fucking consumer brainsucking data service, instead of literally 'internet service', and it doesn't matter what the fuck you do with the bits.

    8. Re:"to review new federal regulations" by Anubis+IV · · Score: 1

      Yup. I realized my mistake about 20 minutes later. Thanks for the correction!

    9. Re:"to review new federal regulations" by SillyHamster · · Score: 1

      The FCC answers to Congress.

      No, it doesn't. The FCC is an independent agency of the United States. While it may have been established and granted its authority by Congress [...]

      Make up your mind. You contradicted yourself within two sentences.

      Can Congress pass a law tomorrow abolishing the FCC's authority and dissolving the agency? (Hint from your link: "[independent agencies are] Established through separate statutes passed by the Congress")

      If yes, then that means that Congress is the FCC's boss. I shouldn't need to explain what it means when one party is paying the other's salary, or has the power to fire them at will.

      Now, if the FCC exists at the whim of Congress ... if the FCC's boss is Congress ... does the FCC answer to Congress?

      If the FCC was to tell Congress, "Quit throwing a hissy fit, you're not the boss of me!" What do you think might happen next?

    10. Re:"to review new federal regulations" by Anubis+IV · · Score: 1

      Make up your mind. You contradicted yourself within two sentences.

      Is it a contradiction that your parents aren't your bosses, despite establishing you and granting you life? Of course not, because their whole purpose in raising you was to produce an independent person capable of sustaining itself without a reliance on them for its continued survival. And just because we might be able to imagine a horror film-esque scenario where they attempt to kill you, that doesn't make them your boss, does it? (if you answer in the affirmative to that rhetorical question, then we'll have to agree to disagree)

      Likewise, just because Congress can dissolve the FCC, it doesn't make it the FCC's boss. The FCC is self-funded through regulatory fees, has been granted authority to act independently, and does not rely on Congressional support for any aspect of its continued operation. Absent Congressional involvement, the FCC will continue on just fine, just as you presumably would continue on just fine absent parental involvement.

      Neither the ability to create nor the ability to destroy makes you the boss of something, nor does it make it answerable to you.

    11. Re:"to review new federal regulations" by SillyHamster · · Score: 1

      Is it a contradiction that your parents aren't your bosses, despite establishing you and granting you life?

      Inapplicable analogy. Parents aren't allowed to kill their children, because we actually do not consider parents the granter of life. (Can they restore the life of the children they kill? No.)

      Likewise, just because Congress can dissolve the FCC, it doesn't make it the FCC's boss.

      Nonsense. That is a boss, by definition.

      The FCC is self-funded through regulatory fees, has been granted authority to act independently, and does not rely on Congressional support for any aspect of its continued operation.

      False. It relies on Congress continuing to delegate that authority. The FCC's ability to collect fees is due to Congress continuously authorizing it to do so.

      If and when Congress doesn't like how the FCC is using its delegated authority, it can take it back - even for no reason at all - and the FCC has no authority to override Congress's decisions.

      The FCC exists because Congress passed a law. It will cease to exist if Congress repeals that law. The FCC exists at the whim of Congress.

    12. Re:"to review new federal regulations" by Anubis+IV · · Score: 1

      I think this is going to be an "agree to disagree" situation.

      I disagree with your assertion that Congress is "continuing to delegate that authority". They delegated it. Past tense. It's gone. Unless they take it back, it remains gone. There is no continual reliance on Congress to continue delegating their authority. As such, I stand by my statement that there is no reliance on Congress at all. If Congress disappeared tomorrow, the FCC could continue its operation, which wouldn't be possible if there was a reliance on Congress.

      And I feel as if pointing out that Congress can change the laws to govern the FCC is a bit pointless. After all, the same is true for everyone in the country, yet we wouldn't consider Congress to be our boss, even though we'd agree that the laws have authority over us. Similarly, I would agree with you that the FCC only exists at the whim of Congress, in much the same way that my home only remains mine at the whim of the local/state/federal government not exercising eminent domain, but again, it's a question of what the default is if no purposeful action is taken. Should the government not take action, I remain an independent homeowner, just as the FCC continues to exist.

      In terms of who I would say that the FCC is answerable to, I'd suggest it's to the laws establishing its mandate, the laws expanding its powers, and the courts who interpret those laws. Maybe it's playing semantics on my part, but I view being beholden to the laws to be very different than being beholden to the people making the laws. And contrast that with Congressional oversight, where Congress is definitively in the driver's seat and bossing around whoever they are overseeing. Those they oversee, they definitely are the bosses of. But those they make laws for? They legislate for them, not boss them.

      I dunno...does that explain my stance a bit better? Again, I think we're going to have to agree to disagree on this one.

    13. Re:"to review new federal regulations" by SillyHamster · · Score: 1

      I disagree with your assertion that Congress is "continuing to delegate that authority". They delegated it. Past tense. It's gone. Unless they take it back, it remains gone. There is no continual reliance on Congress to continue delegating their authority. As such, I stand by my statement that there is no reliance on Congress at all. If Congress disappeared tomorrow, the FCC could continue its operation, which wouldn't be possible if there was a reliance on Congress.

      You would have a point if and only if Congress was unable to take back that delegated authority.

      If Congress made a territory into its own independent sovereign nation, that would be something along the lines of what you're talking about.

      But that is not how the FCC is operating. The FCC operates within the United States of America according to US law, at the continued pleasure of Congress.

      Revoke those laws, and the FCC has no authority to tell any US citizen or organization to do anything.

      You know how the Constitution is the supreme law of the land? It defines Congress, and the Presidency, and the Supreme Court. It does not define the FCC. The FCC exists because Congress created it, and it operates independently only because Congress allows it. If Congress doesn't like the job the FCC is doing, the FCC will comply or be dissolved.

      If Congress disappears ... so does the authority of the FCC.

      After all, the same is true for everyone in the country, yet we wouldn't consider Congress to be our boss, even though we'd agree that the laws have authority over us.

      Do you not know American History? That's because we're Congress's boss.

      When we vote someone into office, the results of the vote are not a polite suggestion. The institution has been corrupted over time, but this is basic civics.

      In terms of who I would say that the FCC is answerable to, I'd suggest it's to the laws establishing its mandate, the laws expanding its powers, and the courts who interpret those laws.

      You left out an important and extremely relevant entity in that list - the group of people who write and repeal the laws establishing mandates and powers. Some might call those "lawmakers". In the US, that body is called "Congress".

      I dunno...does that explain my stance a bit better? Again, I think we're going to have to agree to disagree on this one.

      You can be wrong if you want, but it's not a matter of subjective opinion.

      Either the FCC answers to Congress, or it does not. The truth of the matter is obvious - what happens if the FCC tells Congress to take a hike because "hissy fit"?

    14. Re:"to review new federal regulations" by Anubis+IV · · Score: 1

      In terms of who I would say that the FCC is answerable to, I'd suggest it's to the laws establishing its mandate, the laws expanding its powers, and the courts who interpret those laws.

      You left out an important and extremely relevant entity in that list - the group of people who write and repeal the laws establishing mandates and powers. Some might call those "lawmakers".

      You conveniently didn't quote the very next sentence of mine, which said, "I view being beholden to the laws to be very different than being beholden to the people making the laws." Yes, I left them out, but I did so purposefully for reasons that were explained.

      As for the rest, we agree on the facts of the matter--that Congress can dissolve the FCC if it doesn't like what the FCC is doing--but we disagree on whether that fact is sufficient to make Congress the "boss" of the FCC, which is a matter of subjective opinion, since it comes down to our interpretation of what constitutes a boss and whether or not Congress is filling that role. You think so and I think not. As I said before, I don't think that either of us will convince the other of our viewpoint.

    15. Re:"to review new federal regulations" by SillyHamster · · Score: 1

      "I view being beholden to the laws to be very different than being beholden to the people making the laws."

      If you're going to include the courts as law interpreters, you have to include the lawmakers, who write the laws with an eye on how it will be interpreted, or modify laws in reaction to judge rulings.

      we disagree on whether that fact is sufficient to make Congress the "boss" of the FCC, which is a matter of subjective opinion, since it comes down to our interpretation of what constitutes a boss and whether or not Congress is filling that role.

      The debate is on whether the FCC answers to Congress. If you agree that the FCC can be dissolved at will by Congress - there is no question that the FCC does indeed answer to Congress. If Congress has an opinion on how the FCC conducts its activities, the FCC shuts up and listens.

      I'm not all that concerned whether or not you have to use the word "boss" to describe that relationship, but your resistance to the word is an odd prejudice. The relationship does not have any of the complexities you're trying to read into it.

    16. Re:"to review new federal regulations" by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Congress can't kill the FCC without passing a law.
      A law requires the president's signature.
      So the President is the boss of them both I guess?

      Or maybe you just have no fucking clue how independent agencies work?

      Ya thats more likely.

    17. Re:"to review new federal regulations" by SillyHamster · · Score: 1

      Congress can't kill the FCC without passing a law. A law requires the president's signature. So the President is the boss of them both I guess?

      Or maybe you just have no fucking clue how independent agencies work?

      Do you even Constitution, bro?

  7. Lobbying and Contributions by Etherwalk · · Score: 5, Informative

    Here is some basic information about the legalized purchase of the relevant legislation:

    Lobbying:

    https://www.opensecrets.org/in...

    Contributions:

    https://www.opensecrets.org/in...

    1. Re:Lobbying and Contributions by gmhowell · · Score: 1, Interesting

      This is a 'troll'? Somebody must have changed the moderation guidelines again.

      --
      Jesus was all right but his disciples were thick and ordinary. -John Lennon
    2. Re:Lobbying and Contributions by lgw · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Came here to ask this. Found it second post. Well done, sir.

      It's gets silly these days to think of congresscritters as "Democrat" or "Republican" on issues like this. Who represents Comcast? Who represents Google? For damn sure none of them represent voters.

      --
      Socialism: a lie told by totalitarians and believed by fools.
    3. Re:Lobbying and Contributions by rtb61 · · Score: 2, Interesting

      More than just lobbying. Factually, a heavily censored public communications network heavily favours authoritarian governments, which is exactly what every single for profit corporation is (an authoritarian privatised element of governance geared to favour a minority with majority share holdings). So access to public communications censored via cost ie only the rich can play, favours both the Republicans and Corporations. So net neutrality favours democracy and biased by wealth internet access favours fascism and that is an inescapable fact and exactly why the current pseudo religious, pseudo representative Republicans, want to kill it, main stream media controlled by wealth favours them and public media controlled by the majority goes against them, straight up fascism versus democracy. This is not just a US thing but can be seen the whole world over, the more pseudo conservative actually fascist a government is the more they want to privatise communications and limit access and control of access based upon wealth. Exactly as can be seen in Australia, where a labour government endeavoured to produce an equally accessible network and the conservative once in power immediately set to destroying it and are now attempting to permanently block it by crippling it financially and locking it up in privatised contracts. Opposition to net neutrality is factually treason against democracy.

      --
      Chaos - everything, everywhere, everywhen
    4. Re:Lobbying and Contributions by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Interesting

      The difference is Republicans speak as if all this money is their moral right to exchange. Democrats could at least be guilted into doing something about it at the national level, Republicans never will.

      That's why this bill comes from a Republican who justifies it on dog whistle terms he knows his constituents will translate into, "freedom," or money out of their own pockets. No Democrat could ever get away essentially stating, "yeah, I've been bought off, but freedom 'Merica eagles you could be rich Obama."

    5. Re:Lobbying and Contributions by ArmoredDragon · · Score: 1

      More than just lobbying. Factually, a heavily censored public communications network heavily favours authoritarian governments, which is exactly what every single for profit corporation is (an authoritarian privatised element of governance geared to favour a minority with majority share holdings).

      I've never gotten that impression from the one I work for, which is publicly traded. Then again the one I work for uses worker empowerment as a management technique (i.e customers typically don't need to navigate through a bureaucracy to get resolution) so our customers prefer us over competitors. The ones you deal with may not do that, so YMMV of course.

    6. Re:Lobbying and Contributions by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

      There are no more Republicans. There are "Corporate 1%" and "twist the Tea Party away from it's foundation into stupid fundamentalism".

      Democrats occasionally operate ok at the local level, but incompetence and socialism destroys them at the national level.

      Unfortunately, the "outsider" running for 2016 is a nut without any respect that his father earned.

      I'm writing in "Mickey Mouse" for president in 2016. And maybe most other offices.

    7. Re:Lobbying and Contributions by microbox · · Score: 3, Interesting

      t's gets silly these days to think of congresscritters as "Democrat" or "Republican" on issues like this. Who represents Comcast? Who represents Google? For damn sure none of them represent voters.

      This is true; however, it seems the net neutrality is going to become a partisan issue, because Comcast et al can use GOP economic rhetoric (baseless or not), and the GOP leadership think the money is worth the political risk.

      Once anything becomes a partisan issue, then tribalism replaces sanity. Expect some GOP faithful computer geeks to slowly edge towards the party line.

      --

      Like all pain, suffering is a signal that something isn't right
    8. Re:Lobbying and Contributions by Darinbob · · Score: 4, Interesting

      There's also the ultra-libertarian view (which really isn't very libertarian) that the government should literally do nothing. Any regulation by them is seen as bad regulation. Damn the consumers, they think if we let something like this stand then sooner or later the government will decide to ban child labor as well.

      Seriously, we have a lot of members of congress who think that their one and only duty is to oppose all government action of any kind (though a subset of them approve of military action as an exception). Then mix in the true market believers as well, who think that the free market can solve all problems as long as the government stays away from it.

    9. Re:Lobbying and Contributions by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Thanks for the telephone folks.

      Here are the links for computers and internet:

      https://www.opensecrets.org/industries/indus.php?ind=B12++

      https://www.opensecrets.org/industries/lobbying.php?ind=B12++

      Your #1 - AT&T, spent $3 million on lobbying.

      That's about 1/10 of what net neutrality proponents Google and Facebook spent.

      So which megacorp gets to buy the rules they want? Looks like it's being done by the Golden Rule - thems with the gold makes the rules. And Google's got the most gold.

    10. Re:Lobbying and Contributions by Darinbob · · Score: 4, Insightful

      As little as possible to these morons means even local politics should do nothing. But it won't work in this case, because telecom is not a local issue, it's not even a state issue. You can't tell Comcast what to do when you're in a little town.

      And don't forget, these hardcore politicians with their "states rights!" mantra were the same ones who manages to get several state governments to forbid their municipal governments from bypassing Comcast to have their own internet service. True hypocrites.

    11. Re:Lobbying and Contributions by ganjadude · · Score: 1

      well a limited government type would not want the GOVERNMENT to provide services that can be provided by the private sector so it actually does fit the mantra

      --
      have you seen my sig? there are many others like it but none that are the same
    12. Re:Lobbying and Contributions by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0, Insightful

      There are such people but it is disingenuous to describe them as "not very libertarian". The idea is to understand the difference between a right and a privilege and it is something this group do rather well.

      It is the "your rights online" Slashdot crowd that have a warped sense of liberty. A typical commentator usually applies a utilitarian approach with, subconsciously, their own value function. This leads to support of a mix of both positive and negative rights designed to give the typical internet user a more comfortable existence. They rally against closed source software, corporate data retention, and ISP freedom. They fail to respect the masses and take the view that the world would be better if they were able to mandate certain ways of doing things, things which the general public is too ignorant to demand itself.

      Consider authors, that view coryright as their right to own their work (rather than the removal of rights of others to the free peaceable use of their property). They are routinely attacked for this here. Net neutrality supporters can be attacked for precisely the same reason. I, apparently, am not free to build network infrastructure and charge people for using it the way I prefer. This is a loss of real freedom.

      You may consider net neutrality a net positive (utilitarianism again) but it is most clearly not a position of liberty. It is very much: your rights, and privelages, online; fuck all offline rights.

    13. Re:Lobbying and Contributions by Etherwalk · · Score: 3, Insightful

      This is a 'troll'? Somebody must have changed the moderation guidelines again.

      No, somebody just works for a telecom company and thinks net neutrality is a bad idea, so they're resenting the fact that bribery played a part in the legislation and are reacting to the presence of a fact they don't like.

      Either that, or it's a paid proxy for a telecom company downvoting it. I believe I've noticed a trend on slashdot of downmoderation of comments opposed to institutions of the sort who hire propaganda people, but haven't done a thorough analysis so it's only anecdotal.

    14. Re:Lobbying and Contributions by Etherwalk · · Score: 4, Informative

      Your #1 - AT&T, spent $3 million on lobbying.

      That's about 1/10 of what net neutrality proponents Google and Facebook spent.

      No, they spent $3 million on contributions, $14 million on lobbying.

    15. Re:Lobbying and Contributions by Ryanrule · · Score: 1
    16. Re:Lobbying and Contributions by Ryanrule · · Score: 1

      keeping politics local leads to massive corruption.

    17. Re:Lobbying and Contributions by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Congresswhores.

      All-encompassing.

    18. Re:Lobbying and Contributions by ganjadude · · Score: 1

      id prefer local corruption, which is easier to remove and affects a handful of people comparatively speaking, over federal corruption, which affects 400 million people

      --
      have you seen my sig? there are many others like it but none that are the same
    19. Re:Lobbying and Contributions by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Nah. Most posts that get any mod points at all get at least one troll mod. A single troll mod is just an indicator that people are reading the post, not so much an indicator of whether or not it is a troll.

    20. Re:Lobbying and Contributions by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It's gets silly these days to think of congresscritters as "Democrat" or "Republican" on issues like this.

      As an ostensibly left leaning publication, Slashdot feels obliged to support the Democratic party, no matter how corporate friendly or openly fascist they or their supporters become.

      It is a very, very odd thing to hear an American describe themselves as "left wing" or "liberal". Invariably it turns out they mean "centre right".

    21. Re:Lobbying and Contributions by Darinbob · · Score: 4, Insightful

      This assumes that the private sector has a vested interest in helping the citizens. In practice it does not. The private sector is very often the enemy of the citizens. Once they've got a monopoly or trust in place then they'll cheat and steal more than most governments will. Even without the monopolies they do their best to extract as much as possible out of people's wallets.

      In reality you can't vote with your wallets if you're poor, or even if middle class. The only way the citizens have managed historically to rein in the power of the private sector is by electing governments to do this. Sure, it's not a perfect system but there has been no other system in history that has done it better.

      What we've got now is not a system of reduced regulation or of high regulation. What we have is a mixed up system where the big economic interests are given a free pass to be abusive, or the ability to write their own regulations. Everyone else though has to follow the regulations and rules. The internet infrastructure within the US should follow the same guidelines and principles that are in place for telephones and broadcast media (the internet of last century).

    22. Re:Lobbying and Contributions by ganjadude · · Score: 2

      I get your point, and i dont disagree. but tell me this. do you have more power to vote out your mayor or your president? I believe the former is the correct answer there which is why keeping it local is the better option (in general)

      I do NOT believe that to be the case with vital infrastructure. which I consider the internet to be.

      --
      have you seen my sig? there are many others like it but none that are the same
    23. Re: Lobbying and Contributions by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You do know that, if elected, Mickey would make us all slaves right? Write in Ralph Nader if you want to make a point. At least he used to run.

    24. Re:Lobbying and Contributions by bidule · · Score: 1

      The Space Merchants, Frederik Pohl.

      --
      ID: the nose did not occur naturally, how would we wear glasses otherwise? (apologies to Voltaire)
    25. Re:Lobbying and Contributions by sg_oneill · · Score: 1, Troll

      The Tea parties foundations where straight up bonkers from day 1 when that stockbroker dude flipped out on TV about how unfair it was bankers might get punished.

      screw that noise. Each and every one of those teabag nuts where stooges from day 1. It was a movement born rotten.

      --
      Excuse the Unicode crap in my posts. That's an apostrophe, and slashdot is busted.
    26. Re:Lobbying and Contributions by lister+king+of+smeg · · Score: 0

      This is a 'troll'? Somebody must have changed the moderation guidelines again.

      No, somebody just works for a telecom company and thinks net neutrality is a bad idea, so they're resenting the fact that bribery played a part in the legislation and are reacting to the presence of a fact they don't like.

      Either that, or it's a paid proxy for a telecom company downvoting it. I believe I've noticed a trend on slashdot of downmoderation of comments opposed to institutions of the sort who hire propaganda people, but haven't done a thorough analysis so it's only anecdotal.

      so we have shill mods now? Great wonder how much dice charges for those or are companies posting enough to get mods and then shilling with them?

      --
      ---Saying gnome 3 is better than windows 8 not so much a compliment as it is damning with light praise.
    27. Re:Lobbying and Contributions by linearZ · · Score: 1

      Seriously, we have a lot of members of congress who think that their one and only duty is to oppose all government action of any kind (though a subset of them approve of military action as an exception).

      This assumes members of congress have some sense of duty. They don't.

      The ultra-libertarian view is simply an appeal to the cynicism of the have not rubes. Tell 'em the current government is bad and so the only thing to do is nothing (IOW, keep it bad). No wonder the "ultra-libertarians" all seem to originate from areas where the economy sucks and education has been poor for years.

      --
      Revolution is the opium of the intellectuals.
    28. Re:Lobbying and Contributions by lister+king+of+smeg · · Score: 5, Funny

      Keeping politics local means less oppression

      never had a Home Owners Association where you live I see

      --
      ---Saying gnome 3 is better than windows 8 not so much a compliment as it is damning with light praise.
    29. Re:Lobbying and Contributions by dave420 · · Score: 2, Insightful

      There are a few people who use the notion of "shills" to counter criticism of their point - they seem to believe that the only way people can disagree with them is by being paid to disagree. Slashdot simply isn't large enough any more or has enough reputation for people to really care about this stuff.

      You notice how the person you replied to didn't even entertain the notion that a few people who might not agree with him simply moderated the way they saw fit.

      Shills are the alien-carrying UFOs of slashdot - loads of people passionately claim they exist, but no evidence has surfaced pointing to their existence.

    30. Re:Lobbying and Contributions by mwvdlee · · Score: 1

      Wait until a few more moderations come in.
      You're judging an entire community by the actions of a few individuals.
      Right now GP is at "+5 Informative".

      In my own experience, there seems to be a general "lifecycle" to comment moderations.
      The more controversial their subject matter, the more pronounced this seems to be.
      1. Random votes. (i.e. -1's and +1's mixed, "average" jumps all over the place).
      2. Going up to +5.
      3. Back to +4 (only if really controversial and may take a few days).
      Few serious comment seem to end up negative, regardless of whether people agree or disagree.

      --
      Slashdot social media options: AIM, ICQ, Yahoo, Jabber and Mobile Text. Why no MySpace?
    31. Re: Lobbying and Contributions by stealth_finger · · Score: 3, Funny

      You do know that, if elected, Mickey would make us all slaves right? Write in Ralph Nader if you want to make a point. At least he used to run.

      Write in Cthulhu. Why settle for the lesser of two evils?

      --
      Wanna buy a shirt?
      https://www.redbubble.com/people/stealthfinger/shop?asc=u
    32. Re:Lobbying and Contributions by stealth_finger · · Score: 4, Insightful

      the federal government SHOULD be doing as little as possible.

      One thing they should do is stop companies from raping the population hand over fist. A lot of people over there seem to like being charged (or charging) extra for everything because it's the American way, also mumble mumble competition

      --
      Wanna buy a shirt?
      https://www.redbubble.com/people/stealthfinger/shop?asc=u
    33. Re:Lobbying and Contributions by allcoolnameswheretak · · Score: 0

      I don't think it's just an anecdote. I've experienced this myself for years, in my case related to nuclear energy. Whenever I formulate a post that's even remotely critical of nuclear energy on Slashdot, it gets downvoted Troll or Flamebait with amazing speed.

    34. Re:Lobbying and Contributions by stealth_finger · · Score: 1

      Thanks for the telephone folks.

      Here are the links for computers and internet:

      https://www.opensecrets.org/industries/indus.php?ind=B12++

      https://www.opensecrets.org/industries/lobbying.php?ind=B12++

      Your #1 - AT&T, spent $3 million on lobbying.

      That's about 1/10 of what net neutrality proponents Google and Facebook spent.

      So which megacorp gets to buy the rules they want? Looks like it's being done by the Golden Rule - thems with the gold makes the rules. And Google's got the most gold.

      So are you annoyed AT&T won't be able to charge you (and facebook/google/any popular site) a premium to connect to their sites at a decent speed? If you even pay for the search engine and social media packages.

      --
      Wanna buy a shirt?
      https://www.redbubble.com/people/stealthfinger/shop?asc=u
    35. Re: Lobbying and Contributions by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Shills? Don't make me laugh. Telcos can buy all the people in power they want, they don't need to waste time trying to sway the worthless "opinion" on some forum of shitfuckers with no weight at all. There's nothing slashdotters can ever do to change things. Nothing. Do not overestimate yourselves: things are decided away from the public eye, in halls you could never set your feet in. If you tried, security would bust your heads open and piss into your cloven skulls.

    36. Re: Lobbying and Contributions by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You have a point. These non-taxpayers seem to thrive spending their money freely for booze, broads and bribes, but squeal when asked to help pay for local schools and law enforcement.

    37. Re: Lobbying and Contributions by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I love my HOA. You, however, can enjoy your neighbor's purple house and private junk yard.

    38. Re: Lobbying and Contributions by paiute · · Score: 1

      You know that if elected, Ralph Nader would take away our cars right? Write in J. Bob Dobbs if you want to make a point.

      --
      If Slashdot were chemistry it would look like this:Cadaverine
    39. Re:Lobbying and Contributions by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You get a disagreement with documentation, so you call them a shill? How open minded of you.

    40. Re: Lobbying and Contributions by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      There is no left party in the US. You got right or extreme right like in Israel.

    41. Re: Lobbying and Contributions by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      There are people that sow discord just for the sake of it, their are those who do so for a cause they believe in, and some who do it for money.
      And likely other reasons to numerous to list.

    42. Re: Lobbying and Contributions by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      But they are the job creators, if they don't get to fist rape the general public none of us will have jobs!

    43. Re:Lobbying and Contributions by JustSomeProgrammer · · Score: 1

      The more local you get the fewer people you have who are running. Most local mayors run completely unopposed. Heck even most State governments have many unopposed "elected" officials. I think this would make it harder to get Corrupted Carl to no longer be the Mayor.

    44. Re: Lobbying and Contributions by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Whooohoooo, let's vote a Republican president into office!!! Maybe he will shut down that damned internet for good.

    45. Re:Lobbying and Contributions by ganjadude · · Score: 1

      and whos fault is that? the people who live there that are complacent and dont run for office

      --
      have you seen my sig? there are many others like it but none that are the same
    46. Re:Lobbying and Contributions by Ol+Olsoc · · Score: 1

      Either that, or it's a paid proxy for a telecom company downvoting it. I believe I've noticed a trend on slashdot of downmoderation of comments opposed to institutions of the sort who hire propaganda people, but haven't done a thorough analysis so it's only anecdotal.

      Baksheesh!

      Yes, there is a new breed of moderators, who are hell bent on calling anything they disagree with as trolls or worse. I think there needs to be two levels of moderation, the normal, and the Fox News version.

      --
      The shepherds did so well protecting the flock that the sheep no longer believed that wolves existed.
    47. Re:Lobbying and Contributions by Ol+Olsoc · · Score: 1

      so we have shill mods now? Great wonder how much dice charges for those or are companies posting enough to get mods and then shilling with them?

      Actually, I think it's just the Yahoo crowd getting off their plantation. The neighorhood has seen better days.

      --
      The shepherds did so well protecting the flock that the sheep no longer believed that wolves existed.
    48. Re:Lobbying and Contributions by Ol+Olsoc · · Score: 0

      You notice how the person you replied to didn't even entertain the notion that a few people who might not agree with him simply moderated the way they saw fit.

      There is a moderation for people who disagree with what is being posted. It's "overrated". It isn't "troll".

      And that's the tough part. We have people moderating now who haven't a clue what a troll or flamebait is. It's kind of like a modern version of the old AOL spam callout days, when people would mark emails of anyone who they disagreed with as spam.

      It wasn't spam, and the post in question wasn't a troll. It was clueless moderation however.

      --
      The shepherds did so well protecting the flock that the sheep no longer believed that wolves existed.
    49. Re:Lobbying and Contributions by Akaihiryuu · · Score: 1

      At this point they should just call them the tastycrats and fingerlickans, and have the candidates be clones named Jack Johnson and John Jackson. http://theinfosphere.org/A_Hea...

    50. Re:Lobbying and Contributions by david_thornley · · Score: 1

      It's hard to tell whether any individual is a shill (although some people that show up when we discuss Russian politics sure seem like some). Some are proceeding from different assumptions, some are nutcases, and it's even theoretically possible that somebody who disagrees with me might be correct.

      I'm fairly confident that we do get shills in general. There are companies that advertise that sort of thing, and we know that some companies have employees monitor forums. I'm just not going to accuse any one person (except for some of those Putin enthusiasts).

      --
      "When you have eliminated the unacceptable, whatever is left, however improbable, must be the truthiness" - Holmes
    51. Re:Lobbying and Contributions by david_thornley · · Score: 1

      If the market has a lot of vendors, and lots of competition, and externalities are accounted for, the invisible hand works reasonably well at making business help people. In any sort of limited competition situation, you're far more likely to get the invisible finger.

      --
      "When you have eliminated the unacceptable, whatever is left, however improbable, must be the truthiness" - Holmes
    52. Re:Lobbying and Contributions by dywolf · · Score: 1

      Hahhahahaha.

      And you mentioned term limits aka "we can't out vote them, so we'll legislate them out, and ignore the will of the people in a democracy"

      --
      The guy who said the election was rigged won the presidency with the second-most votes.
    53. Re:Lobbying and Contributions by dywolf · · Score: 1

      they're so committed to them doing nothing they even pass state laws that block cities and townships from passing their own laws.

      Like when Seattle upped hteir minimum wage, there was talk in Oklahoma City of raising our minimum wage.

      Well obviously we can't have that, so the state legislature very quickly banned any local governments from setting their own minimum wages any higher than hte state level, which happens to be the same as the Federal minimum.

      They also passed a law recently banning local governments from banning or restricting oil/gas operations in their jurisdictions.

      Yay small government, huh?

      --
      The guy who said the election was rigged won the presidency with the second-most votes.
    54. Re:Lobbying and Contributions by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      be we have jobs and other committments?

      most red states dont pay local politicians enough to replace income so only the well off or connected can even consider it.

      just how fucking stupid are you?

    55. Re:Lobbying and Contributions by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      oh shutup you fucking moron

    56. Re:Lobbying and Contributions by diamondmagic · · Score: 1

      They're supposed to do that: The highest authority in the US are the state governments.

      Local municipalities are formed by and subordinate to the state government, unless otherwise defined under the terms of the respective state's charters.

      Likewise, Federal government was formed by and is subordinate to the state governments, within the confines and requirements as specified in the Constitution.

    57. Re:Lobbying and Contributions by diamondmagic · · Score: 1

      The "Party Line" in TFA is the same "party line" of Slashdot: The FCC is tramples technological freedoms. They tell you what you can and cannot air on TV, they fine you when they think they see anything resembling a nipple (even in scrambled video), they tell you what you can and cannot use a telephone for, they lock down what devices you can connect to your wireless carrier with, they tell you when and when you can't record broadcast television. The list goes on and on.

      Then to top it all off, the FCC decides it's going to start making and enforcing rules about Internet providers, without citing any prior problems, and we're supposed to roll over and believe them? Shoudn't they at least point to an ongoing violation and say "That's something we want to fix!"?

      Shouldn't Congress, who is at least elected, be kind of wary that the FCC, unelected, is usurping their power here? Read the definitions, the Internet is plainly an Information Service; and in any event, an executive department is supposed to be enforcing rules, not writing them. Common law doesn't allow for the interoperation of the law to "change" on political whims: if the law was wrong before, it was always wrong. (This is why the courts can rule censorship laws unconstitutional, and retroactively so.)

      Shouldn't we be just as concerned over who and how the rules are enforced, just as much as the rules themselves?

    58. Re: Lobbying and Contributions by Rakarra · · Score: 1

      I originally liked Ralph Nader and planned to vote for him (when he ran in 2000) because of his consumer activism. He was saying the right things to me, but then I looked into what he and the Green Party actually believed in (from their own websites) and ran away in horror.

      I think my favorite/least favorite part was the statement that if you made over some level of income ($50k? $100k?), it was probably done through fraudulent/illegal/immoral means, so they saw no issue with taxing 100% of income above that level.

    59. Re:Lobbying and Contributions by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      So access to public communications censored via cost ie only the rich can play, favours both the Republicans and Corporations.

      You are delusional. Many corporations need the public to have access to low cost communications in order to sell their products. Further, in many jurisdictions, particularly those deriving from English Common Law, essentially every business is incorporated, because the legal system creates insane penalties for not doing so (it's in the interests of lawyers for this to be the case, and they write, enforce, and judge the laws). Typically small businesses use a form of incorporation known as a LLC. This means that some inoffensive small business selling fruit at the farmer's market, or the plumber, or the electrician, could easily be a corporation with one employee. Not exactly somebody that is either rich or likely to be evil.

      Thus, nothing in politics is a matter of "all corporations are evil and fascist" versus "all that is good, free, public, and democratic". You undermine your own arguments by failing to understand this.

  8. Hopin' Seek-it by DrunkenTerror · · Score: 1

    Rep. Doug Collins

    Top Contributing Industries, 2013-2014:

    1. TV/Movies/Music $52,500 $11,500 $41,000

    http://www.opensecrets.org/pol...

    1. Re:Hopin' Seek-it by Vinegar+Joe · · Score: 1

      Barack Obama 2012

      Communications/Electronics $18,985,831

      http://www.opensecrets.org/pre...

      Mitt Romney 2012

      Communications/Electronics $7,119,313

      http://www.opensecrets.org/pre...

      --
      "The average reporter we talk to is 27 years old......They literally know nothing." - Ben Rhodes
    2. Re:Hopin' Seek-it by DrunkenTerror · · Score: 1

      I'm having grilled pork, fried apples, and a baked potato for dinner.

  9. Oh not this again! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    The retardlicans would have us ban cars and return us all to horse and carts if they could!

    1. Re:Oh not this again! by CAOgdin · · Score: 2

      No, they wouldn't ban cars. That would be perceived as accepting Climate Change, and we can't have THAT, now, can we, reTHUGs?

    2. Re:Oh not this again! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The previous comment was about how old fashioned they are and wanting to protect the old ways than about anything modern like climate change.

  10. Government != Internet engineers by diamondmagic · · Score: 0, Flamebait

    Net Neutrality is a routing rule that has been with the Internet since the beginning. You don't "overturn" it with an act of congress. How the Internet is designed is a job for engineers and no one else.

    What's at issue is if the FCC's unconstitutional, unregulated expansion of power. Without identifying any previous violations, without even utilizing the courts, and without any act of Congress, they single-handedly declared their authority over one of the most free realms of commerce we have today. This wasn't OK when it was the Broadcast Flag, and it's not OK even if they call it "light touch".

    Just because you can send copyrighted material over p2p protocols, doesn't make them illegal. And just because you can send VoIP over the Internet doesn't make it a telecommunications service.

    1. Re:Government != Internet engineers by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Just because you can hook a modem up to a phone line and send data over the copper doesn't mean that your phone company is an ISP then, either, right?

      I don't know if you know what "tele" and "communications" are but when you put them together, the name alone indicates communication at a distance which is exactly what the internet was created to do. Having ISPs regulated as telecommunications services makes perfect sense to me.

    2. Re:Government != Internet engineers by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Interesting

      What's at issue is if the FCC's unconstitutional, unregulated expansion of power. Without identifying any previous violations, without even utilizing the courts, and without any act of Congress, they single-handedly declared their authority over one of the most free realms of commerce we have today.

      People can keep saying that, but it's clearly untrue. Title II is part of the Communications Act, which is law passed by Congress. Now you can argue they misinterpreted that law and I'm sure someone will in court soon, but to say there was no law is either ignorant or lying.

    3. Re:Government != Internet engineers by Fire_Wraith · · Score: 4, Insightful

      I'm not sure what it looks like from where you're sitting, but there were some pretty obvious shenanigans at play with the whole Comcast/etc vs Netflix deal. Traffic to/from a particular site doesn't suddenly degrade in quality only on a particular ISP, and only when an argument about getting paid extra starts, only to magically vanish the moment that site agrees to pay up, all on its own. And that's after all the lawsuits that were launched to overturn previous, far less extensive regulatory attempts.

      Unregulated? Without any act of Congress? You do know that "Title II" refers specifically to a law, passed by Congress, as updated to cover modern telecommunications, right? And you do know that they tried doing stuff before, and the Courts told them "you have to use Title II classification to do this," right?

      I'm not even going to start on the fact that you think sending data is somehow not "telecommunications."

    4. Re:Government != Internet engineers by CAOgdin · · Score: 1

      Your ignorance of the enabling legislation, the 1934 Communications Act, disqualifies your opinion and renders it trash.

    5. Re:Government != Internet engineers by grimmjeeper · · Score: 2

      Net Neutrality is a routing rule that has been with the Internet since the beginning. You don't "overturn" it with an act of congress.

      No. But the courts overturned it which is why the FCC went back and came up with a different approach to prevent predatory practices.

      How the Internet is designed is a job for engineers and no one else.

      That's a nice sentiment but it's terribly naive. When content producers buy out the service providers, they make their engineers do all kinds of stuff to the design of the network to jack up profits and otherwise abuse their monopoly power. This is why the FCC ruled that the service providers must act like common carriers.

    6. Re:Government != Internet engineers by diamondmagic · · Score: 1

      Nope, the FCC specifically declined to intervene in peering agreements like Netflix-Cogent-Comcast:

      As discussed, Internet traffic exchange agreements have historically been and will continue to be commercially negotiated. We do not believe that it is appropriate or necessary to subject arrangements for Internet traffic exchange (which are subsumed within broadband Internet access service) to the rules we adopt today.

      You were saying?

      Unregulated? Without any act of Congress? You do know that "Title II" refers specifically to a law, passed by Congress, as updated to cover modern telecommunications, right? And you do know that they tried doing stuff before, and the Courts told them "you have to use Title II classification to do this," right?

      Last time I checked, the Internet was an Information Service. That designation was created by Congress for some reason... You can't have it both ways.

      I'm not even going to start on the fact that you think sending data is somehow not "information service."

    7. Re:Government != Internet engineers by SillyHamster · · Score: 1

      I'm not sure what it looks like from where you're sitting, but there were some pretty obvious shenanigans at play with the whole Comcast/etc vs Netflix deal. Traffic to/from a particular site doesn't suddenly degrade in quality only on a particular ISP, and only when an argument about getting paid extra starts, only to magically vanish the moment that site agrees to pay up, all on its own. And that's after all the lawsuits that were launched to overturn previous, far less extensive regulatory attempts.

      There's nothing magic or shady about paying for more bandwidth and getting more bandwidth.

      The degradation in speed is consistent with a continued growth in Netflix subscribers on a fixed amount of bandwidth.

      Do you think it's strange that you get higher performance upgrading to a 6 Mbps DSL plan from a 1 Mbps DSL plan? Use more, pay more.

    8. Re:Government != Internet engineers by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I don't know if you know what "tele"

      The OP most likely thinks the word "tele" is synonymous with television; it would explain why he has that subscription based anti net neutrality mindset.

    9. Re:Government != Internet engineers by diamondmagic · · Score: 1

      Funny, the Internet doesn't look like the PSTN to me. And I had no clue it was invented in 1934, Al Gore looks pretty young! But I'm a VoIP professional, what do I know?

    10. Re:Government != Internet engineers by geminidomino · · Score: 2

      Last time I checked, the Internet was an Information Service. That designation was created by Congress for some reason... You can't have it both ways.

      Are you still throwing that bullshit around? The last time you checked, it was an "Information Service" because the FCC reclassified it as an Information Service in 2003. It was under Title II before that, and moved OUT of that classification by the FCC.

    11. Re:Government != Internet engineers by diamondmagic · · Score: 1

      You'll need to provide a citation, but in any event, the FCC would have been incorrect, as it is now.

      Wikipedia provides a nice write-up of the state of affairs since the Telecommunications Act of 1996:

      The Act makes a significant distinction between providers of telecommunications services and information services. The term 'telecommunications service' means the offering of telecommunications for a fee directly to the public, or to such classes of users as to be effectively available directly to the public, regardless of the facilities used.' On the other hand, the term 'information service' means the offering of a capability for generating, acquiring, storing, transforming, processing, retrieving, utilizing, or making available information via telecommunications, and includes electronic publishing, but does not include any use of any such capability for the management, control, or operation of a telecommunications system or the management of a telecommunications service. The distinction comes into play when a carrier provides information services. A carrier providing information services is not a 'telecommunications carrier' under the act. For example, a carrier is not a 'telecommunications carrier' when it is selling broadband Internet access. This distinction becomes particularly important because the act enforces specific regulations against 'telecommunications carriers' but not against carriers providing information services. With the convergence of telephone, cable, and internet providers, this distinction has created much controversy.

    12. Re:Government != Internet engineers by geminidomino · · Score: 2

      And such classifications are at the discretion of the FCC.

    13. Re:Government != Internet engineers by diamondmagic · · Score: 1

      If that were the case, then Congress wouldn't have a law that says "Here's a description of one type of commerce, you get $amount_of_authority over it. And here's a description of another type of commerce, and you get $substantially_more_amount_of_authority over it."

      If they can just always pick the latter, why even bother describing the former, and the subset of authority that goes with it? The FCC has zero self-interest in regulating its power.

    14. Re:Government != Internet engineers by Anubis+IV · · Score: 2

      Net Neutrality is a routing rule that has been with the Internet since the beginning.

      Wrong. It's a concept that was first given that name in the early-to-mid 2000s and was first put into writing by the FCC in 2005 in a non-enforceable policy document. The principles that are central to the concept of net neutrality were first enacted as rules in the mid-90s as part of Congressional "open Internet" legislation. Prior to that, they were the de facto policy, rather than a de jure policy, given that the small-time players back then lacked either the incentive or the ability to break net neutrality.

      You don't "overturn" it with an act of congress.

      Actually, you do. Those open Internet laws that were created in the mid-90s and that were protecting what we now call "net neutrality" had an expiration date on them, which is why the FCC took steps in 2010 to protect net neutrality, given that it was, quite literally, set to expire because of an act of Congress.

      How the Internet is designed is a job for engineers and no one else.

      If only. Were that true, we'd all be a lot happier, I suspect.

      What's at issue is if the FCC's unconstitutional, unregulated expansion of power. Without identifying any previous violations, without even utilizing the courts, and without any act of Congress, they single-handedly declared their authority [...]

      What expansion? The FCC exercised the same Congressionally-granted authority to classify communications that they always have, as per the Telecommunications Act of 1996. They do it all the time. Congress had no problem when the FCC classified cable, DSL, and wireless broadband companies in 2002, 2005, and 2007, respectively. Re-classifications can and do occur (including some of the ones I just mentioned), and what they've done recently is just re-classify them again in a way that is within their authority as stated by the federal appeals court in the 2014 Verizon v. FCC case.

      Or maybe I'm wrong. After all, you said that the courts haven't been utilized at all and that no Congressional acts were involved. If only my claims could be substantiated...

      Just because you can send copyrighted material over p2p protocols, doesn't make them illegal. And just because you can send VoIP over the Internet doesn't make it a telecommunications service.

      Ok, first off, the one does not imply the other. Second, the Telecommunications Act of 1996 specifically grants the FCC authority in these areas, regardless of what you decide to call it. Third, the Communications Act of 1934 was around before that and was used by the FCC to regulate these things (albeit, with crufty laws in need of updating). No matter how you cut it, those analogies add up to a lot of nothing.

    15. Re:Government != Internet engineers by diamondmagic · · Score: 1

      Let's play a game.

      One is "Telecommunications service" and one is "Information service". But I removed the actual term from the definition, and randomized the order at the flip of a coin.

      So which one describes the Internet?

      ...
                                  `($A) $ABC - The term `$ABC' means the offering of
                                  telecommunications for a fee directly to the public, or to such
                                  classes of users as to be effectively available directly to the
                                  public, regardless of the facilities used.'.

                                      `($D) $DEF - The term `$DEF'
                                  means the offering of a capability for generating, acquiring,
                                  storing, transforming, processing, retrieving, utilizing, or
                                  making available information via telecommunications, and
                                  includes electronic publishing, but does not include any use of
                                  any such capability for the management, control, or operation
                                  of a telecommunications system or the management of a
                                  telecommunications service.

      So does the Internet fall under section $A, or section $D?

    16. Re:Government != Internet engineers by matfud · · Score: 1

      And comcast should be able to satisfy the upstream demand generated by the plans they sell.

    17. Re:Government != Internet engineers by SillyHamster · · Score: 1

      And comcast should be able to satisfy the upstream demand generated by the plans they sell.

      If you don't understand how networks operate, you don't have any business saying how they should work.

      Individual subscribers don't get unlimited upload bandwidth as part of their Comcast network access. That does not change just because one is a popular commercial business pushing massive amounts of content over Comcast's network.

      Netflix needed to buy a better upload pipe to Comcast. They did, and enjoyed better network performance after the fact.

    18. Re:Government != Internet engineers by matfud · · Score: 1

      Netflix do not peer with comcast. Netflix demonstrably has enough bandwidth available to get the data out there (onto the pipes so to speak). Comcast refused to provide the bandwidth from the transit providers to their own network. You know the one that their customers pay for.

      I'm not saying that all their customers should always get all the bandwidth they have purchased. Overselling keeps prices down. But if you oversell you should not be surprised if you eventually have to make good on the claims you made. And in this case it did not even involve a massive infrastructure upgrade.

    19. Re:Government != Internet engineers by SillyHamster · · Score: 1

      Netflix do not peer with comcast. Netflix demonstrably has enough bandwidth available to get the data out there (onto the pipes so to speak). Comcast refused to provide the bandwidth from the transit providers to their own network. You know the one that their customers pay for.

      Netflix chose an ISP that did not have enough bandwidth to Comcast. Getting bandwidth "out there" is only half the problem.

      Comcast's customers paid for X Mbits access from Comcast's network. It doesn't guarantee they get X Mbits access from some dinky server on the Internet that has 128 Kbps upload. Neither does it guarantee that all Y Netflix users on Comcast's network get Y*X Mbps access to Netflix content, when Netflix's network's connection to Comcast does not have that much bandwidth.

      If Netflix was a customer of Comcast's network, that'd be one thing... but they weren't, at least until they created their agreement.

      Netflix streaming is at times 30% of the Internet's total traffic. If they don't pay those bandwidth costs, then it's going to be paid by the people who aren't Netflix users ... how is that a better solution?

      Pay for what you use - meaning Netflix should pay.

    20. Re:Government != Internet engineers by matfud · · Score: 1

      And you are claiming that this is not comcasts problem? How?

    21. Re:Government != Internet engineers by SillyHamster · · Score: 1

      Comcast customers pay for X Mbit access to Comcast's network. They got it.

      Netflix did not have the upload to Comcast's network to handle all Netflix users on said network. That lack of upload is Netflix's problem, which is why the correct solution is for Netflix to pay Comcast to remedy this.

      Failing that, they could have found a different ISP that had a better peering agreement with Comcast.

    22. Re:Government != Internet engineers by matfud · · Score: 1

      where did this go wrong? People pay for access. Not as much as they should but how can you deny them the access Paying for

    23. Re:Government != Internet engineers by SillyHamster · · Score: 1

      Not as much as they should but how can you deny them the access Paying for

      Here's your error. Comcast subscribers are not paying for access to Netflix. They're paying for access to Comcast's network. When their download speed from Netflix dropped to a "measly" 1.5 Mbps, there has been no denial of access.

      That did result in a worse user experience - and that's entirely due to Netflix's choice of ISP and network plus their continuously growing user-base. By creating an agreement with Comcast, they kept their existing ISP and bypassed the network bottlenecks, improving their users' experience and fixing the scaling of their bandwidth use.

      Scaling up solutions cost money. When Netflix is using up the bandwidth with their content, it's correct for Netflix to pay.

    24. Re:Government != Internet engineers by matfud · · Score: 1

      Comcasts customers are already paying to access Netflix. They are paying netflix and paying comcast. How comcast can not cope I do not know. As someone earlier pointed out End points will never provide symmetrical data transfers. It is always downloads. But then they are not stupid so they know that. I know they have a big network but how did they not give netfix a chance. Almost like they deliberately chose to mess around.

    25. Re:Government != Internet engineers by SillyHamster · · Score: 1

      Comcasts customers are already paying to access Netflix. They are paying netflix and paying comcast. How comcast can not cope I do not know.

      Yes, Comcast's customers paid for what they deserved.

      The issue is that Netflix was failing to deliver as well as it could to them; and that was rooted in Netflix not paying its share of bandwidth costs.

      Contrary to what you said earlier, there was no denial of access. There was degrading quality of access rooted in Netflix's continued growth in subscribers and bandwidth usage.

      I know they have a big network but how did they not give netfix a chance.

      What do you mean by "give Netflix a chance"?

      This is business. You get what you pay for. Netflix got the bandwidth they paid for, and then they paid more to have the bandwidth to serve their growing number of subscribers on the Comcast network.

    26. Re:Government != Internet engineers by matfud · · Score: 1

      Thankfully I am not in the US so it does not affect me. And I do not subscribe to netflix

      Netflix did pay for their bandwidth. Comcasts customers also payed. Somewhere in the middle there was an argument.

    27. Re:Government != Internet engineers by SillyHamster · · Score: 1

      Thankfully I am not in the US so it does not affect me. And I do not subscribe to netflix

      Then you are advised to learn more details about a dispute before taking a stance.

      Especially when the outcome does not affect you.

      Netflix did pay for their bandwidth. Comcasts customers also payed. Somewhere in the middle there was an argument.

      Bandwidth is a quantity. The amount of bandwidth Netflix paid for is not equal to the amount of bandwidth Comcast's customers paid for.

  11. Translation: by gman003 · · Score: 4, Insightful

    "We found a way to reframe the debate from 'Republicans vs. Freedom' to 'Republicans vs. Big Government', so we're going to do that both to hammer home that 'Democrats are Dictators' meme and because we're getting fat stacks of cash from the people who stand to profit from it".

    1. Re:Translation: by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Mmmm ... American politicians - the finest that money can buy.

    2. Re:Translation: by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yes, because making Comcast the government winner (which has huge tied to the democratic party) is really the republicans looking for cash. It always amazes me when republicans get the stigma for what the democrats are actually doing.

      All those democrats invested and got rich off solyndra and all the other "green" energy companies that failed and costs the tax payers billions. So don't even try and play the republicans are the "corporate" interest card when your democrat overlords and the ones getting rich off it right now.

    3. Re:Translation: by gman003 · · Score: 1

      Wow, even when you're putting words in my mouth, you can't win the argument. That's honestly an impressive amount of non-skill, like a lumberjack slicing off all four limbs with one swing of the axe.

  12. Just goes to show by JustNiz · · Score: 2

    Sorry I'm not familiar with the ins and outs of US law/politics, but aren't these republican politicians actually breaking the law by representing the interests of national corps instead of what is in the best interest of their own consituency's voters? (and if not why not?)

    1. Re:Just goes to show by diamondmagic · · Score: 1

      There's no law saying you have to "represent the interests" of "their own constituency". How would you even prosecute that? If we have an objective way of determining everyone's best interest, we wouldn't need lawmakers.

      Second, the House of Representatives is citizen-elected, the FCC is an unelected bureaucracy. I'm not so naive to think Congress is acting in my best interest, but the fact that they're opposing the unelected bureaucracy should raise some red flags. Specifically, they're probably unhappy that the FCC, all by itself, asserted its authority over the Internet, which they have no statutory authority over.

      That is, if the FCC gets away with this, Congress becomes irrelevant, and my vote becomes even more meaningless than it was before.

    2. Re:Just goes to show by CAOgdin · · Score: 1

      For a meaningful answer, look up "dissembling" in any dictionary.

    3. Re:Just goes to show by Archangel+Michael · · Score: 1, Insightful

      As opposed to what happened at the FCC, where a bunch of unelected, unaccountable bureaucrats just made up a whole bunch of new rules?

      I mean if you want to frame the argument in hte worst possible light concerning how shit gets done, at least congress is electable. Which is a far cry from what the FCC is. Even if you like what the FCC did here, it should scare the shit out of you, assuming you care about preventing tyrannical bureaucracies.

      --
      Agent K: A *person* is smart. People are dumb, stupid, panicky animals, and you know it.
    4. Re: Just goes to show by mdg137 · · Score: 1

      Corporations are now people here.

    5. Re:Just goes to show by PRMan · · Score: 2

      FCC, all by itself, asserted its authority over the Internet, which they have no statutory authority over.

      With the Telecommunications Act of 1996, Congress gave the FCC the power to: “promote competition in the local telecommunications market”.

      Communications Act of 1934, Title II, the second subsection (202) clearly states that common carriers can’t “make any unjust or unreasonable discrimination in charges, practices, classifications, regulations, facilities, or services.”

      Using #1, they classified ISPs as #2. Seems OK to me.

      --
      Peter predicted that you would "deliberately forget" creation 2000 years ago...
    6. Re:Just goes to show by grimmjeeper · · Score: 1

      Sorry I'm not familiar with the ins and outs of US law/politics, but aren't these republican politicians actually breaking the law by representing the interests of national corps instead of what is in the best interest of their own consituency's voters? (and if not why not?)

      Read all about the "Citizens United" decision here.

      Corporations are people under US law and "people" can spend as much as they want on election campaigns.

    7. Re:Just goes to show by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You're either hopelessly deluded, or a paid shill intent on raping the land of liberty.

      Either way, kindly shut the fuck up.

    8. Re:Just goes to show by diamondmagic · · Score: 1

      Corporations are people under US law and "people" can spend as much as they want on election campaigns.

      Corporations are persons so they can be be a party to contracts and be legally held to them. I mean, you want corporations to be accountable, right?

      Also, what part of "Congress shall make no law... abridging the freedom of speech" don't you understand?

      Not "Congress shall make no law against individuals", not "Congress shall make no law against unions". NO law. Any law restricting the movement of speech, including political contributions, is unconstitutional. You don't need to bring "person" into it.

    9. Re:Just goes to show by grimmjeeper · · Score: 2

      Do you really think that the founding fathers intended freedom of speech to apply to corporations? And do you think they really intended for virtually unlimited corporate money to overwhelm individual speech?

    10. Re:Just goes to show by sumdumass · · Score: 1

      The 1996 act defines the internet as an information service along the lines of the FCC computers II working paper. The second report to congress in 1998 on accessibility even says as much and points to how it is not an information service.

    11. Re:Just goes to show by unimacs · · Score: 2

      Corporations are people under US law and "people" can spend as much as they want on election campaigns.

      Corporations are persons so they can be be a party to contracts and be legally held to them. I mean, you want corporations to be accountable, right?

      Also, what part of "Congress shall make no law... abridging the freedom of speech" don't you understand?

      Not "Congress shall make no law against individuals", not "Congress shall make no law against unions". NO law. Any law restricting the movement of speech, including political contributions, is unconstitutional. You don't need to bring "person" into it.

      It's kind of obvious that "freedom of speech" now belongs primarily to those who can pay big bucks for it.

      One of the worst decisions ever. Corruption has been enshrined in law.

    12. Re:Just goes to show by fnj · · Score: 1

      Earth to nutjob. A bureaucracy is the way ALL GOVERNMENTS work. There is no other conceivable way to do it. The legislative process paints the broad strokes. It also creates and authorizes bureaucratic structures to tend to the details and the day-to-day operations. Congress CREATED the FCC, goddammit. Where do you think the FCC came from? Some boogeyman? Look up Communications Act of 1934 and Telecommunications Act of 1996. They created the FCC and amended the rules, respectively. They gave it exactly the powers they wanted it to have, and they told it exactly what its duties were.

      The FCC used the powers given to it to do something that falls within its duties.

      It's not as if the bureaucracy can just do any crazy thing. If you think the enabling legislation was fucked up, or has been overtaken by events and conditions, then all you have to do is introduce new legislation. This particular new legislation is an unimaginative reactive tantrum which says "you did something naughty, and we didn't really mean that you should have been able to do that". If there really is a problem to address, one would hope for legislation more constructive and coherent, but be that as it may, you can see that the system works as intended. Congress (if it can get all the bickering members plus the president to cooperate) can goddam well control the bureaucracy.

    13. Re:Just goes to show by l0n3s0m3phr34k · · Score: 2

      Yet their often not accountable. A corporation can cause hundreds or thousands of deaths, but gets to go on living. They might get some fine, but no real person who kills a bunch of people, even accidentally, will just get a fine. A corp can poison entire towns, hell even entire ecosystems, and after a year it's right back to business as usual. Where is the corporate jail? Corporate death sentence? How many corps have been dissolved even after it's shown they wantonly and willingly dumped some toxins into a stream / river and killed people? How many mortgage / loan agents who fraudulently signed modifications got into any trouble?

      The corps get all the "rights" of a person with none of the drawbacks. Kill people, get fines, write fines off on taxes, transfer all profits out of the country, PROFIT.

    14. Re:Just goes to show by diamondmagic · · Score: 1

      What part of no law have I not made sufficiently clear? Individual, corporation, union, robot, it doesn't matter who's affected. If it chills speech, it's unconstitutional, period, end of discussion.

    15. Re:Just goes to show by diamondmagic · · Score: 1

      Is it the Court's job to make you happy, or is it the court's job to uphold the law, including the constitution, which has a pretty strongly worded provision against laws about speech?

      And how in the world is giving money to someone, or paying for an advertisement, "corruption"?

    16. Re:Just goes to show by linearZ · · Score: 1

      Yes, you aren't familiar with the ins and outs of US law/politics.

      Our courts say money==speech.
      The first amendment to our constitution says that no law can be made "prohibiting the petitioning for a governmental redress of grievances".
      And so our lawmakers are free to use wallets as ears.

      It really isn't that complicated. But it is kinda sad....

      --
      Revolution is the opium of the intellectuals.
    17. Re:Just goes to show by linearZ · · Score: 1

      The House of Representatives is citizen-elected, the FCC is an unelected bureaucracy.

      The FCC gets its regulatory authority from the Congress (Senate and House of Representatives). The FCC exists because Congress punted on the idea of regulating the details of telecommunications long ago, and has done so again, several times since.

      By the way, most of the US government works this way. US bureaucracies - the IRS, EPA, DOD, NSA, etc. do not get detailed direction from Congress. They operate under a framework of laws established over many, many years by Congress (and signed by the president, and argued in courts). There is good reason for this... you may not have noticed but generally the world works a tad bit faster than Congress. Only recently has Congress figured out that the Internet is indeed not a "series of tubes".

      they're probably unhappy that the FCC, all by itself, asserted its authority over the Internet, which they have no statutory authority over.

      Wrong. Just plain wrong. The FCC absolutely has authority over the Internet.

      The Supreme Court recently affirmed the FCC's had authority over the Internet, but found the FCC was taking too much of a hodge-podge fashion in it regulation. The court agreed and acknowledged that if the FCC wanted to regulate the Internet it could if it simply called the Internet a common carrier. Nobody has every denied the FCC's legal authority here.

      Right now, Congress isn't unhappy that the FCC asserted authority over the Internet. Congress is unhappy because now the FCC is LAWFULLY asserting authority over the. Now, some of Congress' biggest contributors may start losing their court cases.

      With that said, Congress is probably even more unhappy that they have to take a meaningful stance on a topic with high public visibility. Poor, poor congress.

      --
      Revolution is the opium of the intellectuals.
    18. Re:Just goes to show by grimmjeeper · · Score: 1

      So you're in favor of repealing laws against libel and slander? Those laws abridge speech. What about laws prohibiting yelling "Fire!" in a crowded theater? Your rights are being TRAMPLED!!!!! [/sarcasm]

      We live in a world full of shades of gray. Your black-or-white all-or-nothing approach just doesn't work and, in fact, goes against 200+ years of case law that says you're wrong. Sorry.

    19. Re:Just goes to show by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Freedom of speech was never intended to guarantee you an audience.

      That someone else if better at getting attention than you really has no bearing on their having the right to say what they want.

    20. Re:Just goes to show by JustNiz · · Score: 1

      >> And how in the world is giving money to someone, or paying for an advertisement, "corruption"?

      paying for something that someone would have had to pay for themselves is basically just the same thing as giving them money. Except maybe more tax-friendly or possibly more untraceable.

      When that person you're giving money to is an official and the real reason you're doing so is to get them to do something they themselves wouldn't have already done for free anyway becuase it was clearly the morally/honourably right thing to do, how is that NOT corruption?

    21. Re:Just goes to show by JustNiz · · Score: 1

      I guess it comes down to whether you beleive that your vote would actually ever change anything.

      I for one think voting is a meaningless sham that at best just serves as a pacifer for the brainwashed masses.
      When your choice is pre-limited to A and B, and they are both pretty much identical clones of each other, your choice is none. The system has already ensured that you only get to choose between 2 or at most 3 career politicians who by nature had to be inherently corrupt back-stabbing used-car salesmen to just get to be high enough in the party system to be electable in the first place. i.e. The system itself actively prevents uncorruptable, selfless, altruistic people from ever getting the chance to even run for election.

    22. Re:Just goes to show by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      yeah 'cause corporations are run by massively intelligent AI.
      No corporations are run by people. A "corporation" doesn't do shit. Everything a corporation does, including giving money to a political candidate is done by the people who control corporate assets. So what you're really saying is that you think it's unfair for the people who control corporate assets to be able to use the assets they control to to effect policy by contributing to politicians. Fair enough. Say that.
      However then explain why PACs, which are also run by individuals are allowed to contribute to politicians money which they collect for that purpose.
      I could technically form a PAC to put a specific industry out of business. Or I could be a union and give buckets of money in a move to change policy and that's OK.
      All the while, as an individual I am prevented form giving any more that a token amount.
      How is that fair?
      The fact is that Corporations aren't treated like people. They are treated like PAC's or unions.

  13. Feeling left ouot by IWantMoreSpamPlease · · Score: 1

    I used to be a republican, back in the Reagan days. But these days (hell, since Bush Jr.) my "traditional" views have all but been marginalized. The democrats aren't much better.

    Although I don't (yet) feel ashamed of the D's, as I do about the R's like when shit like this occurs. Can they make it any more plain they're bought and sold??

    (Well past) Time to find a new party...

    --
    So rise up, all ye lost ones, as one, we'll claw the clouds.
  14. Libertarianism, the new face of the GOP? by goodmanj · · Score: 5, Insightful

    This one goes out to all you libertarians who've been lining up behind the "New GOP", the Republican party that says it's looking out for individual liberties rather than corporate greed.

    And yeah, I know what the truly die-hard among you are about to say: that the people who own Comcast have a right to assemble and agree to strangle internet commerce if they want to. But I say, if you allow wealthy corporate interests to accumulate far more power than the weakened government, they effectively *become* the government, and when they "exercise their liberties" it's indistinguishable from tyranny.

    1. Re:Libertarianism, the new face of the GOP? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Actually, ending the FCC-takeover/Net-Neutrality thing is a relatively Libertarian (and correct) thing to do...

      http://reason.com/archives/2015/04/09/how-to-break-the-internet

      If after reading all four pages you can still say the anti-net-neutrality folks don't have a point, your brain is off / mind closed.

    2. Re:Libertarianism, the new face of the GOP? by Archangel+Michael · · Score: 1, Insightful

      I am a libertarian, and I like "net neutrality" in concept. However, I believe that once Government gets involved, no matter how noble in purpose at the start, it won't end up that way.

      And rather than actually FIXING the problem, the FCC rules will effectively kill off smaller shops (which is the goal, IMHO) that offer better service and support (like Netflix once was).

      And they are solving the wrong problem. The real problem is back at the last mile, where there is NO CHOICE. Fix the problem here, build out Fiber backhaul to a COLO facility where the end user can actually choose their content, from Comcast, TimeWarner, Netflix, ATT or whomever. REAL competition will solve the problem of Netflix vs Comcast (and anything resembling it). In addition to this real problem solving, you'll have the sudden appearances of real innovation as companies search for differentiation among themselves. Christians can get Porn Free wholesome cable, and those that want all porn all the time can get that as well.

      What I don't understand is why we keep trying to solve the problem at the wrong place. We don't need nationalized Internet, yet that is exactly the path I see some wanting us to go.

      --
      Agent K: A *person* is smart. People are dumb, stupid, panicky animals, and you know it.
    3. Re:Libertarianism, the new face of the GOP? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If you don't like people buying their way through the legal system, perhaps we shouldn't put it up for sale. The problem isn't that people want to have their say. The problem is that government is willing to sell some that right while selling out the rest of those with the same right. Welcome to the mixed economy.

    4. Re:Libertarianism, the new face of the GOP? by Lumpy · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Small shops have been dead for a decade. and laws did not do it, it's back room deals like "franchise agreements".

      If you think this will kill small shops, then you need to actually learn about the industry and how allowing big companies to run rampant have caused every problem we have today.

      --
      Do not look at laser with remaining good eye.
    5. Re:Libertarianism, the new face of the GOP? by Uberbah · · Score: 5, Insightful

      However, I believe that once Government gets involved, no matter how noble in purpose at the start, it won't end up that way.

      Yes, there's a term for that - Confirmation Bias. These Randian notions are just as reasonable - or as asinine - as saying starting a business will lead to fraud, bribes, sexual harassment, and toxic waste siphoned into the river. Because what other businesses have done, all businesses will do.

      the FCC rules will effectively kill off smaller shops

      Baseless tautology is baseless.

      And they are solving the wrong problem. The real problem is back at the last mile, where there is NO CHOICE.

      Which can only be addressed by heavy regulation, or by (gasp!) socialized infrastructure. Both of which are anathema to Randians, so this brings us to the second term of the day: Cognitive Dissonance.

    6. Re:Libertarianism, the new face of the GOP? by goodmanj · · Score: 1

      And they are solving the wrong problem. The real problem is back at the last mile, where there is NO CHOICE.

      Which can only be addressed by heavy regulation, or by (gasp!) socialized infrastructure. Both of which are anathema to Randians, so this brings us to the second term of the day: Cognitive Dissonance.

      It's always fun watching individualist libertarians wrestle with the concept of a natural monopoly.

    7. Re:Libertarianism, the new face of the GOP? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Complete bullshit. God that was awful and filled with falsehoods. I love this one in particular:

      "To be successful, ISPs must serve consumer demand in a cost-effective manner."

      Bullshit. Your home address likely has 1 internet provider. They have no intensive to be more cost effective or competitive. They already own you and set the price for internet that you must pay as there is no competition.

      "Somehow, even absent net neutrality regulation, ISPs have invested heavily in infrastructure and broadband. "

      Bullshit. Just look at the news in cities where Google fiber is rolling out. Only SUDDENLY are they forced to compete. The ISPs have made their own little monopolies and have no intention of competing, reducing prices, increasing speeds, etc.

    8. Re:Libertarianism, the new face of the GOP? by bjk002 · · Score: 1

      I really want mod points to award to you...

      --
      Opinion:=TMyOpinion.Create(Me);
    9. Re:Libertarianism, the new face of the GOP? by goodmanj · · Score: 1

      OK I did.

      ...the Internet marketplace can be analytically split into three categories: content providers... ISPs ..., and end-users. The end-users are consumers, whose consumption preferences ultimately determine the value of content. ISPs interact directly with consumers by selling the high-speed connections that allow their customers to access content.

      They *define* the Internet as a one-way information transfer system like television, so of course any law that recognizes that the Internet is designed for two-way transfer between peers (some bigger than others) would be perceived as "breaking the Internet".

    10. Re:Libertarianism, the new face of the GOP? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Small shops have been dead for a decade. and laws did not do it, it's back room deals like "franchise agreements".

      100% incorrect.

      In 2002 the FCC decided to regulate DSL and Cable broadband under Title I - which meant no common-carrier and so no net netruality and even more importantly no open access, effectively shutting out the small shops.

      Brand X finally made its way to the supreme court in 2005 where it was decided that yes the FCC did have the authority to exempt cable companies from net neutrality requirements. What few small shops had not been starved by the years of Title I in practice were ended by that ruling.

    11. Re:Libertarianism, the new face of the GOP? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The problem is ISP were given tax breaks among other things to fund the last mile, which apparently vaporized into thin air. Tax payers have already funded the last mile to the tune of of hundreds of billions of dollars.

      Not to mention when communities decided to fund their own broadband initiatives, ISPs took them to court saying it was anti-competitive. You can't have it both ways.

      The "libertarian" approach to this is certainly starting to look more and more like regulation, as you have providers running amok, and not a damn thing being done about it. And instead of whining regulations are bad, m'kay, it might be a good idea for the libertarian brain trust to start formulating what reasonable regulation looks like, because we both know it is coming, it is just a question of which special interest writes the bill.

    12. Re:Libertarianism, the new face of the GOP? by geminidomino · · Score: 1

      If after reading all four pages you can still say the anti-net-neutrality folks don't have a point, your brain is off / mind closed.

      This coming from the same schmucks who tried to pass off "payola" as a positive thing.

    13. Re:Libertarianism, the new face of the GOP? by Ryanrule · · Score: 1

      "Fix the problem here, build out Fiber backhaul to a COLO facility where the end user can actually choose their content, from Comcast, TimeWarner, Netflix, ATT or whomever." um, telcos have been setting up laws preventing the govt from doing such a thing. laws passed by republicans and libertarians. clean your house, or it will soon burn down.

    14. Re:Libertarianism, the new face of the GOP? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it everywhere, diagnosing it incorrectly and applying the wrong remedies.
      - Groucho Marx

    15. Re:Libertarianism, the new face of the GOP? by SillyHamster · · Score: 1

      It's always fun watching individualist libertarians wrestle with the concept of a natural monopoly.

      Please provide an example of a "natural" monopoly that came into existence without government enforcement.

      Cable companies? Municipal monopolies.

      Copyright? Government monopoly.

      Patents? Government monopoly.

    16. Re:Libertarianism, the new face of the GOP? by linearZ · · Score: 0

      Does it matter if laws or back room deals did it? These days, most laws are back room deals.

      In either case this is about allowing big companies to run rampant with a publicly subsidize resource.

      --
      Revolution is the opium of the intellectuals.
    17. Re:Libertarianism, the new face of the GOP? by goodmanj · · Score: 2

      All domestic utility networks except water and sanitation were originally unregulated competitive markets which condensed into natural monopolies without government help: the value of a network increases dramatically with its size, so the biggest ones swallowed all the smallest ones. I'm sure you know about Westinghouse and Edison setting up parallel electricity networks in New York, but it was even more extreme for the telegraph. In 1850 there were 75 telegraph companies, ten of which served New York; in 1866 there was only one. Railroads are another example of a natural monopoly driven by network scaling.

      The government mostly stepped in *after* these natural monopolies formed, to keep them from abusing their power, and its most prominent actions since have been to break them up (Ma Bell) and to prevent new ones from forming (blocking cell phone and cable mergers).

      Of course I can't say that government *never* touched these networks as they were aggregating: government has touched everything humans have ever done since there were three of us, one to beat another with a stick and the third to say "stop that."

    18. Re:Libertarianism, the new face of the GOP? by jimbolauski · · Score: 1

      Because of how access to telephone poles is regulated there is a government controlled monopoly on the last mile. Reclassifying the internet as a common carrier utility allows IPS's access to those poles and lines to run fiber they can no longer be closed out telecos and cable providers. This is the only good to come from the reclassification. If either party truly wanted to protect the internet from government regulation and censoring while fostering competation they would create a another type of carrier classification that would severely limit the scope of government regulation while allowing ISPs to run fiber on poles.

      --
      Knowledge = Power
      P= W/t
      t=Money
      Money = Work/Knowledge so the less you know the more you make
    19. Re:Libertarianism, the new face of the GOP? by jimbolauski · · Score: 1

      It's not a natural monopoly ISPs are not allowed to run fiber on the telephone poles simply allowing them the same access to telephone poles as telecos and cable providers would be a hug step. That issue is the #1 problem with Google fiber moving in to many areas.

      --
      Knowledge = Power
      P= W/t
      t=Money
      Money = Work/Knowledge so the less you know the more you make
    20. Re:Libertarianism, the new face of the GOP? by dywolf · · Score: 1

      that article is a joke. the authors should be ashamed of their ignorance.

      --
      The guy who said the election was rigged won the presidency with the second-most votes.
    21. Re:Libertarianism, the new face of the GOP? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Have you seen pictures of telegraph (or for that matter powerlines) in large cities when anyone could run them? Almost blocking out the sky. Also there is no need for that much bandwidth or expense. Common access is far simpler.

    22. Re:Libertarianism, the new face of the GOP? by dywolf · · Score: 1

      natural monopolies exist whether government interferes or not.
      that what makes them "natural".

      the road to your house as well as every utility (power, water, electrical, gas, and every other line to your house) you have.
      government frequently DOES involve itself in natural monopolies, in order to protect the consumer from predatory practices, or to protect the public commons, precisely because there isn't any choice in provider.

      but then, see, your problem is you don't even know what a natural monopoly is, what the definition is. this is shown by your including of copyrights and patents. You're one of those loons who thinks monopolies only exist because of government interference.

      So edumicate thyself: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/N...

      --
      The guy who said the election was rigged won the presidency with the second-most votes.
    23. Re:Libertarianism, the new face of the GOP? by goodmanj · · Score: 1

      It's not a natural monopoly ISPs are not allowed to run fiber on the telephone poles

      Oh, I see the problem. You think local government owns the telephone poles. Nope. The *electric power company* (or sometimes the phone company) owns the poles.

      It's not the gubmint, it's a single private company with the power to control who gets to compete, because it owns the poles and there's no room on the street to put in more.

    24. Re:Libertarianism, the new face of the GOP? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It's always fun watching right-libertarians squirm when presented with the end result of government-granted land monopolies.

    25. Re:Libertarianism, the new face of the GOP? by Archangel+Michael · · Score: 1

      Fiber isn't Telco. Comcast can't have it both ways, say it is Telco and not Telco at the same time.

      I agree that fiber is not Telco, it is data network. A municipality that says "we're building our own infrastructure" and allow any service to run across that infrastructure (think Roads and trucks), would win. Just build the damn last mile out right and solve the problem.

      --
      Agent K: A *person* is smart. People are dumb, stupid, panicky animals, and you know it.
    26. Re:Libertarianism, the new face of the GOP? by Archangel+Michael · · Score: 1

      Which is why the municipality should own the last mile infrastructure, just like it owns roads. Building a COLO is like having a highway to the city, where UPS, USPS, FedEX and private taxis can all use the same roads.

      --
      Agent K: A *person* is smart. People are dumb, stupid, panicky animals, and you know it.
    27. Re:Libertarianism, the new face of the GOP? by Catiline · · Score: 1

      I'm sure you know about Westinghouse and Edison setting up parallel electricity networks in New York, but it was even more extreme for the telegraph. In 1850 there were 75 telegraph companies, ten of which served New York; in 1866 there was only one. ... The government mostly stepped in *after* these natural monopolies formed, to keep them from abusing their power,

      False. Since you specifically mentioned New York, here's an article about how that technology developed. Specifically, it states that "To encourage growth in this new electricity infrastructure, New York, like all of the other states, protected the utilities’ investment by granting them an exclusive right to serve customers." (Emphasis mine.) Believe what you want about the importance of monopoly busting, but the sad truth is that for every common example people give of "natural" monopolies, the government had a hand in why the service in question is a monopoly market.

    28. Re:Libertarianism, the new face of the GOP? by Shirley+Marquez · · Score: 1

      Keep in mind that those same corporations also lobby for laws that make it illegal for cities to build those last mile networks.

    29. Re:Libertarianism, the new face of the GOP? by goodmanj · · Score: 1

      That article is factually wrong about the order of events. Competing electrical firms collapsed into single monopolies *first*, and government came in to prevent the monopoly from running roughshod over the customer *second*.

      The libertarian in this video at least gets the history right:
      http://www.libertarianism.org/...

      She phrases it as a grand bargain between government and the monopoly, in which the monopoly is protected in exchange for stability and reasonable prices. Which it is, but what matters to our discussion is that it's a grand bargain that was struck after the monopoly was fait accompli.

    30. Re:Libertarianism, the new face of the GOP? by SillyHamster · · Score: 1

      natural monopolies exist whether government interferes or not. that what makes them "natural".

      That's what people like to say, but observation of the history of monopolies demonstrate that no such "natural" monopolies have ever existed. That's why you were asked to provide an example.

      There are situations where one company gets a large amount of marketshare - but never one where only a single company is capable of surviving, or where it successfully kills all competitors ... unless the government steps in.

      You'll note that power, water ,electrical, gas, all involve municipal monopolies. If your concept of natural monopoly is true, you should be able to provide a history where the monopoly existed before the government granted it.

    31. Re:Libertarianism, the new face of the GOP? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I am a libertarian, and I like "net neutrality" in concept. However, I believe that once Government gets involved, no matter how noble in purpose at the start, it won't end up that way.

      Maybe try not supporting politicians whose goal is to sabotage the Government from the inside?

      Just sayin'.

    32. Re:Libertarianism, the new face of the GOP? by SillyHamster · · Score: 1

      Thank you for the response. That's the type of example I was looking for.

      However a quick skim through the history brings up this: "In 1852 the Supreme Court declared the Bain telegraph an infringement on Morseâ(TM)s patent"

      So there was vibrant competition in the 1850s ... until the government stepped in with patent enforcement. (Patents are a government granted monopoly)

      "Western Union faced three threats during this period: increased government regulation, new entrants into the field of telegraphy, and new competition from the telephone. The last two were the most important to the companyâ(TM)s future profitability"

      So even as a monopoly - they were facing competition from other firms, and from new technology.

      "The period from 1866 through the turn of the century was the apex of Western Unionâ(TM)s power. Yearly messages sent over its lines increased from 5.8 million in 1867 to 63.2 million in 1900. Over the same period, transmission rates fell from an average of $1.09 to 30 cents per message"

      Due to the monopoly ... users enjoyed lower and lower prices. (also, higher quality due to unified wire network)

      Just what does government protect us from here? Why is it important is it to regulate "natural monopolies" when they bring lower prices and higher quality product, and dissolve when obsoleted?

    33. Re:Libertarianism, the new face of the GOP? by david_thornley · · Score: 1

      It doesn't have to be government-owned.

      Right now, there are several connections to my house: water, sewer, telephone, cable, electricity, natural gas. Water and sewer are owned by the city. Telephone, electricity, and natural gas are regulated monopolies. These all work great. Cable is a not-very-regulated monopoly, and has managed (from the customer's point of view) to have acquired the worst features of regulated monopolies and private business.

      --
      "When you have eliminated the unacceptable, whatever is left, however improbable, must be the truthiness" - Holmes
    34. Re:Libertarianism, the new face of the GOP? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I am a libertarian

      So who pays you for being a shill here? As libertarian spending his precious time writing for free is against his nut religion.

    35. Re:Libertarianism, the new face of the GOP? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "Libertarian" is just a euphemism for scum-sucking toady for the billionaire tyrants, and everyone knows it. The most sickening thing they do is they pretend that they are defending freedom, all the while betraying the very principles they claim to be defending. They are utterly worthless, disgusting hypocrites, and they have never once proven to be anything more than the lowest form of criminal. Really, they should be rounded up and thrown and prison.

    36. Re:Libertarianism, the new face of the GOP? by jimbolauski · · Score: 1

      Oh, I see the problem. You think local government owns the telephone poles. Nope. The *electric power company* (or sometimes the phone company) owns the poles. It's not the gubmint, it's a single private company with the power to control who gets to compete, because it owns the poles and there's no room on the street to put in more.

      The government use right of way laws to force private land owners to have telephone poles on their property, they did this as the poles were for a common good. The right of way laws allowed telephone, cable and power companies all access to the poles but not ISPs. Essentially they allowed a third party confiscate property and only forced them to share with two other groups as a condition of letting them confiscate it. Then a third party comes along and can make the same common good argument but was not granted right away access.

      --
      Knowledge = Power
      P= W/t
      t=Money
      Money = Work/Knowledge so the less you know the more you make
  15. Crappy set of rules. by Crashmarik · · Score: 1

    Does nothing to open up the last mile to competition.
    Manages to insert the government even more in the internet.

    Can't be certain what it will actually do at this point.

    Still I have more hope in this than I do Comcast to do anything but completely screw things up.

    1. Re:Crappy set of rules. by CAOgdin · · Score: 4, Informative

      That's actually not true. There were three significant decisions in the same week, only one of them was about Title II (aka "Net Neutrality"). Another had to do with pre-empting state laws forbidding local communities from setting up their services...laws that were passed on behalf of telecomm lobbyists. I can cite from recent observation that a local Wireless ISP is, in fact, using two 1GB/s Comcast backhauls for servicing all their customers (in rural Northern California, where Comcast and AT&T have only spotty service). The third issue that week was they raised the definition of Broadband to be at least 25 Mb/s; below that is no longer considered "broadband" Internet access. Good decisions all, I assert.

    2. Re:Crappy set of rules. by Archangel+Michael · · Score: 1

      Yes, exactly!

      However, Government can screw this up, and inevitably will. But unlike Comcast, I'll never be able to rid myself of our friendly helpful bureaucrats.

      --
      Agent K: A *person* is smart. People are dumb, stupid, panicky animals, and you know it.
    3. Re:Crappy set of rules. by Crashmarik · · Score: 1

      I happen to love the decision regarding municipalities. It was mindboggingly insane that those laws could get passed anywhere and good reason to bring back the "He needed killing" defense.

      Redefining broadband was pointless and little more than playing around with the parameters of an already corrupt system of subsidies.

      Title II is better than nothing but not what needs to be done. I don't care if ISP X wants to set up fast lanes or not as long as I can choose not to use them. What we have from the FCC is very much better than just letting the ISPs make the choices but it does nothing about letting me make choices.

    4. Re:Crappy set of rules. by Radical+Moderate · · Score: 1

      Are you saying that Comcast can rid itself of bureaucrats?

      Or are you saying you can't rid yourself of bureaucrats, but you can rid yourself of Comcast? If so, let me in on the secret. My options are Comcast or very crappy DSL or satellite. Thanks for those great choices Free Market!

      --
      Never let a lack of data get in the way of a good rant.
    5. Re:Crappy set of rules. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      I don't care if ISP X wants to set up fast lanes or not as long as I can choose not to use them.

      The use of "fast lanes" was never intended to be a choice for you. It was an extra limitation put on your connection unless the other end of your communication paid up. If you had the fastest connection your ISP offered, and Netflix (say, since we've actually seen this happen) didn't pay extra, the connection between the two of you would be throttled.

      "Fast lanes" weren't about speed tiers for the consumer, they were much more like tortious interference.

    6. Re:Crappy set of rules. by jader3rd · · Score: 1

      Manages to insert the government even more in the internet.

      Given that we all first started receiving the internet over telephone lines which were subject to Title II, how does saying "Even though you're no longer connecting via a telephone line, you still have to follow Title II" insert even more government to the internet. It's keeping the same amount of government in our internet.

    7. Re:Crappy set of rules. by dywolf · · Score: 1

      Redefining is important as it does few things, one of which is blocking them from advertising a s--- sandwich as broadband while the rest of the world (which has competition created through proper regulations) marches ahead. this creates a economic incentive for them to actually increase speeds even without pressure from competition.
      --

      As for the fast lanes, it seems that you are under the impression that you get to choose to use them or not.

      You don't.
      The fast lanes aren't for you.

      You can still choose different speed teirs of service, whether you want 100 mbps, 50, or 20, or whatever from your ISP.
      the FCC isn't interfering in that consumer choice (other than with the definition of what gets to be advertised as "broadband").

      the fast lanes are for the websites and content providers looking to do business with you via the internet.
      Example:
      Comcast owns Hulu.
      But you don't like Hulu, you like Netflix.
      But Comcast charges Netflix extra to be delivered to you, or slows it down, or any of a few dozen other market distortions to impair the transaction between you and Netflix. Distortions it doesn't create on its own competing service. That isn't free market economics, that's unfair anticompetitive practices.

      And that's one of the things Net Neutrality addresses.

      I do think it would be even better to block the sort of vertical integration Comcast (and others) is seeking, by being the Content Creator (owning NBC Universal), the Content Service (Hulu), and the Content Deliverer (ISP). In this setup Comcast can discriminate or impair the market function of any Content not theirs (ESPN, 20th Century Fox, etc), any Service not theirs (Youtube, Netflix, etc).

      Ideally such integration would be blocked in the first place as then the economic incentive to engage in anticompetitive practices never occurs.
      But if such integration is allowed, then a regulating their business behavior via Net Neutrality is the next best thing.

      (competition alone is an uncertain fix, as we theoretically have competition in ISPs, but reality has shown they simply tacitly agree to not compete; similarly they could tacitly agree to just not delivery each others Content, so you end up having to buy service from each ISP to get everything and your internet service simply becomes a fancy slightly interactive cable channel. the solution to such anticompetitive practices is again something akin to Net Neutrality or similar regulation to force competition)

      --
      The guy who said the election was rigged won the presidency with the second-most votes.
    8. Re:Crappy set of rules. by Crashmarik · · Score: 1

      This is regulating the packet network backbone so when you had your modem dialing up, you had title II between you and the phone company and your internet connection was clear.

  16. hahahahahahaha by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    ... sorry that was a good laugh.

    > representing the interests of national corps instead of what is in the best interest of their own consituency's voters

    That's the American Way (tm). If you're small enough we'll gladly bring it to your country and help your military change the minds of any leaders who think otherwise.

    "The business of America is business"

  17. Up next EMTALA by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Then things get real bad when jeb bush get's rid of the min wage.

  18. Yet another reason by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Another reason why I left the Republican Party after voting in three straight presidential elections.

    1. Re:Yet another reason by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      That's all well and good but how many gay presidential elections did you vote in?

  19. It shall be called... by Patent+Lover · · Score: 1

    The Restoration of Internet Freedom Act. Let freedom ring.

  20. domain of the justice department? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    There are three branches to the government, for a reason. It sounds like Congress wants to grant themselves new powers that rightly belong to a different branch of the government.

  21. "Remecial Civics" by Uberbah · · Score: 4, Interesting

    Congress, who is actually in charge of passing laws, says, "Hey, wait a minute. Shouldn't we have looked at this first?"

    You mean the same Congress that delegated power to the agency in question to make just these sort of rules??? If Congress wants to pass new legislation to revoke that authority (or the budget of the agency under the Executive), it is free to do so - but that does nothing to change the fact that Congress approved it in the first place. You can find similar examples on everything from pot to DADT.

  22. it's a little early for this... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    didn't expect this until late january.. perhaps the republicans are losing confidence in a presidential win and majority of both houses at the next election so they need to try now instead, and try to turn it into an election issue (that part will backfire)

  23. my hosting provider charges me based on usage by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    So does my ISP. There sorts of pay-by-usage arrangements are found throughout the system. I just find it arbitrary to deny this particular one. I'm not yet convinced that we needed government involvement to police this. I want to see it get worse first and let competition have its chance.

  24. Title should have read, "men imtroduce bill to ove by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Why not ""men imtroduce bill to overturn net neutrality"as the title of this post? The 13 legislators are all men so that must mean that all men want to overturn the law. 13 out of 144 signed on to the bill and the title is that every republican in the US wants the bill overturned? Way to contribute to yellow journalism.

  25. Extortionist Appeasement Lanes? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    "Extortionist Appeasement Lanes"?

    I'm trying to work in some combination of WWII rhetoric plus mafioso activity...

  26. this is crap by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I think we should murder EVERY member of congress that votes in favor of this bull shit.

  27. Natural Monopoly by microbox · · Score: 1

    AC doesn't know what a natural monopoly is. AC probably thinks they are an expert on economics. AC only reads a certain kind of website.

    --

    Like all pain, suffering is a signal that something isn't right
  28. willfull obtuseness + sophistry by Uberbah · · Score: 5, Insightful

    I have never seen a "Netflix charge" on my Comcast bill. They have not been charging their users extra for Netflix.

    As if you don't know who Comcast is charging here.

    They HAVE asked Netflix to pay for the capacity upgrade at the border gateways -- capacity that is being used in large part by Netflix and is making Netflix money. Netflix is profiting from a peering agreement that Comcast has to pay for. Seems fair to me that Netflix pays part of the costs of upgrade.

    Any more Comcast propaganda you want to regurgitate? You also know perfectly well that Netflix has offered to place storage services within ISP networks. But even if they weren't, it's none of Comcast's concern as Netflix is already paying for their access and Comcast's customer's are paying for theirs.

    1. Re:willfull obtuseness + sophistry by Obfuscant · · Score: 1

      As if you don't know who Comcast is charging here.

      I know exactly who Comcast is charging here, and it isn't their customers. They aren't double-charging anyone.

      You also know perfectly well that Netflix has offered to place storage services within ISP networks.

      So you think that Netflix can demand that ISPs host their servers instead of paying for the upgrades so Netflix can run their own servers and let the ISPs run their own business? Why does Netflix get to dictate terms like that?

      But even if they weren't, it's none of Comcast's concern as Netflix is already paying for their access and Comcast's customer's are paying for theirs.

      It is patently unfair to expect all of Comcast's customers to pay for upgrades so that Netflix can make a better profit from their high-bandwidth services. Either charge the Netflix customers more for their expanded bandwidth requirements, or get Netflix to pay and then Netflix can pass the costs along.

  29. Re:The Republicans have my vote. by GerryGilmore · · Score: 2

    No reason to downvote - once your argument/reasoning devolves to "BULLSHIT" in all caps and then throw in "liberals" and "regulate" as if the last two were the equivalent of the first, you identified yourself quite clearly as on of those hyper-partisan types who intellectually (and I use that term very broadly) subsist on the cargo-cult, talk-radio crowd who feel at their best when engaging in loutish, barron-stool rantings accompanied by your favorite sayings/slogans of the day. You really should consider doing this: listen-to/watch/read *only* the following for one month. 1) PBS/NesHour for real news and *sane* discussion of current events. 2) Economist magazine for world perspective, outstanding, deep-thought analysis (of which I occasionally disagree, but still respect their perspective) of current events, including America. PS - Economist magazine is the one news/analysis source that is equally respected by Ds and Rs who have a brain. The Tea Pary types like, sadly, you, I suspect, only do Fox and talk radio.

  30. Vote them all out by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    We the American people shall vote out every one of you dumb stupid mfers who think that Net neutrality is a bad thing.

    The American people shall pistol whip you. We are smart enough to know when you the evil corporations are lying to us.

  31. I think the real argument is being missed by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    The real argument is that we are paying for XMbps, but we will only get some fraction of that due to "fast lanes" (aka throttling unless the remote site pays a fee). Isn't it fair to say that there are laws in place that say that if you have a contract that says that you will get XMbps, that you could sue or not pay if you don't receive it? To turn that on its head, shouldn't an ISP be allowed to offer a lower priced service that does throttle?

    It seems to me that letting the government jump into regulating the internet is an overreaction to a problem that could be solved if we simply follow the laws that already exist.

  32. Fuck em by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    We gave them chance after chance to straighten up their act and instead of taking it they did the opposite and continued to fuck more and more people. Now they're crying foul and I laugh at them for getting what they deserve.

  33. reality says by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Reality says that 20 years of legislation just got overturned by imperial fiat ... just saying ...

  34. Congressional oversight of FCC by v1x · · Score: 1

    Sadly, Congress can actually overturn FCC rules, and this Congress, with its Republican majority may succeed where their predecessors failed.

    1. Re:Congressional oversight of FCC by bluefoxlucid · · Score: 1

      Well good. Net Neutrality needs to be overturned. What idiot thought it was a good idea to ban ISPs from selectively throttling traffic? They should be REQUIRED to throttle traffic; if they allow any child pornography to pass through their tubes, their senior executive staff should be arrested on distribution charges, filed on the sex offender registry, and imprisoned for 40 years. They can't do that if we don't let them throttle traffic!

  35. Republicans by madak3 · · Score: 0

    Since I'm not from the US, I can't understand the thing with Republicans, or why they get votes some sane people. The only logical reason for vote on them, is if your not in the following categories: 1. Big player in finance/healthcare/insurance 2. Fundamental religiuos believer or inbred abort-opponent 3. You like going to war for random reasons Does they bring anything good?

  36. The internet should not require any neutrality by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Never understood why we need net neutrality anyway. Your ISP should be like your electrical supplier, or your natural gas supply. If anything it should require pages and pages of legislation from the FCC to simply say you as a ISP supply a internet connection and the customer decides how to use that connection.
    That to me would apply to any data connection no matter cellular, wireless, or landline. I agree with Republican's that if your going to impose neutrality then do it and nothing more. What the FCC did was far beyond a simple mandate of requiring ISP to not mess with data. Obviously the liberals through in some sort of neutrality clause to simply get people on board. They do that with everything. Trust us, we will take care of you.

  37. Re:The Republicans have my vote. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    You have no idea what you are even talking about. As soon as you say "economist magazine" you give yourself away as a left-statist to anyone who knows anything about economics. Have you ever even actually read a real economic textbook? Doesn't sound like it. Do you understand how any kind of regulation always negatively impacts the ability of the market to work efficiently? You probably wouldn't even recognize a laffer curve if someone stapled it to your eyes. And yet here you are spouting off like you are an expert, but you realy just sound like yet another slashdot-moron saying more regulations and more taxation are the only possible solution to every problem.

  38. If the educated talk only to each other... who's w by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I hope most of you that are appalled at how badly government works, are doing something more substantial about it than griping on the web where you're less likely to convert any large number of people...

  39. Good thing by Tighe_L · · Score: 1

    This net neutrality is not what everyone things it is. It should be overturned. Hopefully congress will not be afraid to assert its authority.

    1. Re:Good thing by Tighe_L · · Score: 1

      This net neutrality is not what everyone THINKS it is. It should be overturned. Hopefully congress will not be afraid to assert its authority.

  40. Letter to Mr. Collins by rlp122 · · Score: 1

    Since I happen to be a constituent of Mr. Collins, I decided to write a letter. Feel free to copy and send it to your legislator if you so choose. Mr. Collins, I am appalled that you would introduce a bill to stifle free trade in Internet Services. Specifically I am talking about your bill to overturn Net Neutrality. Net Neutrality is a major step toward allowing free trade to compete with large special interest groups such as Comcast, AT&T, Verizon, Time Warner, Netflix and so forth. By stifling this FTC action you will kill the Internet for innovation and expansion in the United States. No company is going to invest the amount of money needed to truly bring broadband into this nations homes without Net Neutrality backing up the endeavor. This means that Comcast and AT&T which are the only two providers in my area of Gainesville will never bring prices down and speeds up to par with what other countries now have to offer. Comcast currently charges me $99 a month for 50Mpbs speeds. If Google fiver were to be available, I could get 1Gbps speeds for $70 a month. That is a significant difference in speed versus price. Not only will backing major ISP's bid to kill Net Neutrality hurt Internet expansion, it will also kill off any new companies that wish to compete with large existing businesses such as NetFlix, Amazon and others. When you open the door to businesses being able to pay for preferential treatment, you have stifled the small company which has been the cornerstone of American growth. This bill seems to indicate that you are more interested in backing big business and not at all interested in your constituents. If you do kill off Net Neutrality, you will be doing more harm to the growth of this great nation. Please stop and think about the ramifications of what you are about to do. Whether big business agrees or not, Net Neutrality is good for the consumer by encouraging competition in the marketplace.

  41. Re:The Republicans have my vote. by dywolf · · Score: 1

    Hah. As if there is only one school of economic thought with rules written in stone.

    Newsflash buddy: Laffer is a sick joke.

    And you also prove you know nothing about the Economist magazine.

    --
    The guy who said the election was rigged won the presidency with the second-most votes.
  42. Re:The Republicans have my vote. by dywolf · · Score: 1

    So you apparently believe that liberals exist only to engage in self-destructive behavior? Why do they do so? Do you believe just because they are evil?
    Keep throwing around blanket terms of ignorance too, like statist and SJW. It really helps you look intelligent, acting as if having a functional government and caring about equality under the law are bad things to be opposed.

    Here's the dose of reality you need:

    The internet already operates by and large under the ideals of Net Neutrality.
    And it's not just some leftist plot, but a fundamental preservation of free market ideals.

    Other than congressional republicants (and a few dems) who are bought and owned by the industry,
    it's a concept that enjoys broad bipartisan support. Even the creators of the internet support it.

    Net Neutrality isn't a new thing being pushed on the internet. It's how it already operates,
    minus a few attempts by the likes of Comcast to get away with various shenanigans.

    Net neutrality is the preservation of the status quo.

    --
    The guy who said the election was rigged won the presidency with the second-most votes.
  43. Sending a message.... by BrendaEM · · Score: 1

    Do you want to send a message that to be a Republican is to be ignorant of the internet and be accepting of bribes?

    --
    https://www.youtube.com/c/BrendaEM
  44. Idle effort for now by Shirley+Marquez · · Score: 1

    It's just an empty gesture until January 2017. President Obama is an outspoken proponent of the net neutrality rules and he will veto anything that reaches his desk. Yet another reason it's important to keep the Republicans out of the Oval Office.

  45. How it goes by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Once a regulation is published in Federal Register, it is fact and will have an effective date set in the announcement as well. Until it is published, no action against it may be taken. LIke a pit bull eyeing a potential hunk of red meat, the Republicans and the ISPs have been waiting with their documents already prepared. This legislation, if passed, would allow Congress to step in and repeal the regulation. That hasn't happened often, but the reason the U.S. is the only OECD country with no regulation concerning ergonomics and worker safety is because the Republicans did exactly this and repealed the OSHA regulation before the ink had dried the Fed. Reg.

    The lawsuits are a faster way to get to this issue, but they have to hope that the argument they make is novel and not like the last because the regulations aren't like the last set. I don't think a federal judge or appeals court would stay this regulation until the lawsuit process if over, so given that it will take time for Congress to act, this regulation may become accepted practice. However, given the amount of money behind the effort to derail this regulation, it's possible that the matter may be fast tracked.

    They could do it here. It matters not what the comments for the proposed rule said.

  46. Dear Republicans by ememisya · · Score: 1

    The Internet is a utility. That is all.

  47. Another Republican Waste Of Valuable Time by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Congressional_Review_Act

    This is the process being invoked, one of those "Contract With America" Hoorah moves.

    It has succeeded precisely once before, in 2001, and is still subject to Presidential Veto through a Memorandum Of Disapproval, if it ever gets to their Desk, which has happened precisely... once.

    I'm sure that Congress will also try to get around to disemboweling "Obamacare" a couple of more times during the process; just for giggles.

  48. Because.... by rochrist · · Score: 1

    ....Freedumb!

  49. Corporations are Chartered Sociopaths by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    The corporapists and their fascist political puppets are relentless
    in their efforts to destroy our freedom and our nation, aren't they?
    Sociopaths. Every soulless, black hearted one of them.

  50. Nationalized by ebvwfbw · · Score: 1

    Looks like nobody on /. has figured out that the Obama administration nationalized the whole internet yet.

    Check out what it says. Check out the "logic" behind what the FCC did - what a load of crap and they know it.

    Blew over everyone's head just like Hope and Change did. Guys, he's fooled you once, twice, thrice... now he has to be on the 40th time or something.

    wake up.

    Just beginning. Now they can regulate what we say and do. It's coming. First amendment rights are on the way out too.

  51. Mushroom Locker by warpuck · · Score: 0

    The like to keep you cool, in the dark and feed you shit. If someone cracked the door and let the light in. You may never eat mushrooms again. Do you really think you need to know what is going on ? An old USN saying about the next mission intel