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European Agreement Sets Up Third Greek Bailout
An anonymous reader writes: Euro zone leaders have reached a deal that will attempt to resolve Greece's financial crisis. The deal sets up negotiations for the country's third bailout, and will require the Greek government to give up significant autonomy in financial matters. Experts have estimated that Greece could require almost $100 billion to stabilize once again. While this will be a significant cost to taxpayers in other European countries, the economic repercussions of letting Greece default on its debts would be much greater. "The agreement will call for Greece to raise taxes in some cases, parepension benefits and take various other measures meant to reduce what critics see as too much bureaucracy and too many market protections that keep the Greek economy from operating efficiently. ... Despite the agreement, Greek banks are expected to remain closed this week. The banks are acutely short of cash and Greek depositors may soon find it difficult to withdraw even small sums from ATMs."
The most notable point is the that there is no firm agreement to restructure (cut) the debt. I wonder how Tsirpas will sell this to his constituents who just voted a firm "NO" to a deal without restructuring.
it should read : European Agreement Sets Up BANK bailout. the Banks are saved, not the greeks.
European leaders keep pretending that they are giving Greece new money, when they are merely shuffling old debts around.
The money that was loaned to Greece has been lost. The whole crisis is about everyone involved being unwilling to accept this reality and thinking that the money will somehow magically come back once the Greeks have been punished sufficiently.
It is the same theory behind debtor's prison. It should be abolished for the same reasons.
Finally! A year of moderation! Ready for 2019?
A very important link was left out: the agreement text (PDF).
...
Read it, it is only 7 pages long and, although it mentions other documents, the gist of it is there.
Commenting on the agreement without reading it is engaging in mindless speculation colored by your own misconceptions and ideological leaning
Oh, who am I kidding, this is slashdot, nobody RTFA.
That brother-in-law that keeps borrowing money, then borrows some more; never paying it back. Why? because they can't generate enough revenue to cover their spending. Finally when they can't seem to manage their finances at all and throw a big party, they still want more. Fiat currency arguments aside, it's probably better to let Greece figure this out on their own, with their own currency because the rest of the EU would be throwing good money after bad. Unfortunately the rest of the EU won't let that happen just yet because Italy and Spain would probably be next; it would give the UK further argument to pull out and that would mean serious trouble for the Eurozone.
Harrison's Postulate - "For every action there is an equal and opposite criticism"
I think the point is that they couldn't vote to have other countries give them money.
The British Museum is going to get a chance to buy at auction the Greek cultural artifacts they didn't manage to loot.
Some important caveats:
I conclude Germany is destroying Greece to ensure that Spain and Italy toe the line from now on.
What do you mean? Of course it mattered. The Greeks were offered a deal and told it was the best deal they were going to get. They turned it down. Now they have accepted a worse deal. Democracy is politics, not magic, it doesn't magically fill accounts with funds and ATMs with Euros. It doesn't magically erase consequences of bad decisions and unpaid bills.
much of left-wing thought is a kind of playing with fire by people who don't even know that fire is hot - George Orwell
Well, do you think Greece was going to successfully vote for other countries to give them money? Because that was never gonna work.
The problem is Greece's current government came in on the claims they could renegotiate terms with little leverage because they said so. They they had a referendum to say how much they all agreed that other people should give them more money. Then they got told that their vote didn't really change anything.
What's happening now is those other people are pointing out that the vote by the Greeks was pretty much symbolic at best, delusional at worst. Because voting to have someone else give you money is pretty meaningless to that someone else.
Me, I think this is a problem with the whole concept of globalization and open markets in the first place ... you can't pretend that wages, skills, and goods are interchangeable on a global scale without accounting for the relative differences between countries. Which is why they had separate currencies with separate values in the first place.
You can't just slap a common currency on that many countries, leave them to manage their own money completely separately, and then somehow magically assume the price of goods will be uniform across those countries.
When this was happening a lot of people said it would never work.
Honestly, this is like "voting" that the bank, instead of foreclosing on your mortgage should reduce the mortgage, give you lower payments, and give you money to pay your bills.
This has nothing to do with democracy, and everything to do with the fact that once you're bankrupt, you can't pretend like voting it away changes anything. You're still bankrupt, and if your creditors don't want to give you more money, your temper tantrum doesn't mean a damned thing.
Pretending like Greece had the leverage to change the terms to suit them is the failure here.
This is like loaning money to someone who says they can't afford their bills, having them run out and buy a new TV, and then they want to borrow some more money because they can't pay their bills.
In this case, Germany has said it's not getting stuck holding the bag. And I don't really blame them, otherwise the EU becomes a way to move money from wealthy nations to poorer ones.
Lost at C:>. Found at C.
Silly Greeks you thought your vote mattered.
What? They got exactly what they voted for. The EU offered them a deal, and said that if they didn't take it, the eventual deal they would have to take would be a worse one. And they voted not to take the deal. They got exactly what they voted for, as promised: they still had to take a deal of some sort, and now they've got a worse one, just like they asked for.
And as if that weren't enough evidence that Democracy works in Greece, keep in mind that they are in the position they're in because the position they're in is exactly the one they've been voting for all these years to obtain: they wanted more stuff than they could be bothered to pay for, and wanted to continue to elect socialist politicians who would promise them it would all be OK, and they'd always be able to get other Europeans to go to work each day in order to buy them the lifestyle they wanted. Democracy in Greece has worked perfectly. The problem is that the voters in Greece are fools.
Don't disappoint your bird dog. Go to the range.
Problem is, the conditions will continue to even further strangulate Greek economy, so that an eventual back payment of Greece's debts will become even less probable.
But the conditions, and that's the one major reason Germany kept insisting on them, will ensure that western European capital will be able to totally and completely plunder what's left of Greek property, while at the same time Germany's hegemony within Europe will be further strengthened.
The 'agreement' that was reached today is a declaration of war to the Greek people, and it is the defeat and the end of the once so promising project called Syriza.
"Wir schaffen es, ohne Waffen-SS" – a satirical comment dating back to the sixties, meaning 'we'll manage it [to subdue the world] without the military', was never more applicable to Germany than today.
I wouldn't expect the Greek people to go along without struggle now, though. Somehow I think today's 'agreement' might not have been the last word.
(Disclaimer: I'm German, but not a tiny bit proud of it.)
They voted against austerity measures and got worse ones. Their finance minister got shitcanned because he wasn't an idiot and wouldn't send the Greek people into debt servitude.
I understand the need to personalize this as a morality play, but really it just boils to down to a ruling class that never had a concern for the welfare or will of the people.
Also listen to Varoufakis's interview. It gives you quite a lot of insight into how Greece got to this point:
http://mpegmedia.abc.net.au/rn...
Basically looks like Varoufakis was pulling the strings, but in the end Tsipras blinked first. What else could he do though, I think Varoufakis didn't grasp until late in the piece that powerful parts of the EU were quite happy to call his bluff on a Grexit. Seems like his ego is now in repair mode after making that rather fatal miscalculation.
Can you provide a TL;DR version? Thanks in advance!
The bailout still has to go through a number of European national parliaments. There have been rumors about the Finnish parliament not ready to go ahead with this.
"Annual income twenty pounds, annual expenditure nineteen [pounds] nineteen [shillings] and six [pence], result happiness. Annual income twenty pounds, annual expenditure twenty pounds ought and six, result misery."
-- Charles Dickens, David Copperfield
Seriously, people, don't borrow money from scary international lenders who are just waiting for you to default so they can take control of your country. Don't borrow money from them! And if you do: pay it back! I can't stress that last point enough. It's really the key to the whole Greece problem.
Shutting down free speech with violence isn't fighting fascism. It IS fascism!
Euro isn't by any means a failure, what's a failure is the half-hearten attempt to trim the dead weight.
It's like having a leg cut and repeatedly smearing urine all over it because that takes away the pain momentarily, instead of going to the hospital and pay to have it treated.
...gis sdrawkcab (usually not responding to ACs; don't bother posting as AC)
I read it, it's a bunch of nonsense and vague statements about future reforms.... sure, sure.
The reality is that Greece needs to be booted out of EU. German people are not interested in donating (and lets be clear, this is a donation, not a loan) more money to the Greeks standing with their hands out.
Without this bailout Greece would be forced to implement government spending cuts that would reform the economy and make it self sustainable. With this bailout this same exact problem, only with much larger numbers is going to replay itself a few years down the road. There is no escape - living on a handout does not produce any wealth, does not create a working economy, it simply creates even more culture of dependency and that culture will never go away until it is forced to simply by lack of free money.
Without the free money Greeks would restructure their economy. With the free money Greeks will do nothing but spend the money and ask for more. That document is for show, it means nothing.
Now, if you wanted a REAL document and a solution, Greece would be forced to repay at least some of its debts by selling its assets immediately. Then they could restructure the debt, pay 60 cents on the dollar or 30 cents on the dollar, doesn't matter. But they would truly display willingness to work with the lenders.
What this is here, it is the display of denial from the Greeks and it is display of weakness from the Germans who cannot reign in their crazy government that is stealing from the Germans.
If Greeks want charity, they should ask for charity from those same Germans. If Greeks want a real economy, they should build their economy by eliminating their unsustainable government programs and reducing their taxes.
The real austerity comes in the form of very low taxes and very little government and without this there will be no rebuilding of the economy.
I said this before and my comments went up to +5 and then to 0 and back to +5 and back to 0 and then to +5 and now to 2 I think (or whatever it is at the moment).
Clearly this is a contentious issue, but it is the only solution. Moderating my comments lower does not change reality, it only prevents me from replying to other comments, so it's your call whether you want me to reply to other comments (even in this thread) or not.
You can't handle the truth.
And even a brief look at the numbers shows that you are full of shit.
Most ACs are not even worth the keystrokes to insult them. Be generically insulted by this and ignored otherwise.
The Euro is not a failure (much as the US wishes it was), Greece is a failure. Greece is also not very large with 11 Million citizens, while the Eurozone has 468 Million citizens. That is about 2.3%. And keep in mind the worse the current Greek efforts to not pay their debts backfires on them, the less inclined will other Eurozone members be to try that as well.
Most ACs are not even worth the keystrokes to insult them. Be generically insulted by this and ignored otherwise.
Start renting out the Parthenon for parties. If that doesn't work, start charging $0.50 each for Thermopylae selfies.
When all you have is a hammer, every problem starts to look like a thumb.
First things first: We have to make sure that no banker ever loses so much as a Euro, no matter how bad the investment. That's primary in this deal.
You are welcome on my lawn.
In fact, corporations get exactly that when the file for bankruptcy. a procedure designed exactly to restructure their debt. It's true that sometimes this means the company is liquidated entirely, with the assets used to pay the creditors, but often what results is a bankruptcy plan in which (1) the company is reformed (2) the debt is cut to something manageable in order to keep the company going.
Recall that Germany didn't make the original loans at all. The original loans were made by private banks (many of them German). So if Greece had defaulted in 2008 or 2010, the citizens of Germany would have not been on the hook for anything. But in 2010 the government of Germany decided to act like a predatory debt hedge fund: by forcing the first bailout on Greece, they effectively bought the debt from the banks, probably on the idea that they could force Greece to pay better than the banks. Once Germany took over the loans (which it didn't have to), it took over the risk Greece would default. German workers have only their government to blame for taking over the debt -- not the Greek workers or the current government of Greece, neither of which who had any say in the original loans.
Second, it is agreed by the Greek government (at least, it was repeatedly stated by Varoufakis before he was forced out) that Greece needed serious reforms, including raising the retirement age. For Varoufakis the point of an additional loan would have been to bridge Greece while the reforms took effect, noting that they have already achieved a primary surplus. But cutting existing pensions to pay back the government of Germany makes no sense. Basically, German bankers made bad loans, German taxpayers decided to save the bankers, and now Greek pensioners are being asked to help the much wealthier German taxpayers recover money on a bad loan gamble.
Well, many people vote themselves bread and games until there is no bread or games left. Greece has reached that point, even if the population there does not seem to understand this. Some level of humility is required to realize shortcomings of that type and to be able to overcome them. The Greek Government seems to have finally found that humility, the population has not yet done so.
Most ACs are not even worth the keystrokes to insult them. Be generically insulted by this and ignored otherwise.
Viewed from the point of view of what the Greek people are asking (telling) the Greek government to do, I totally agree with you. I think it was more the Greek government twisting the meaning of that statement (A "democratic" decision in Greece should force other democratic countries to fund them).
Like Germany repaid the US after WWII?
"In 2010 and 2012, Greece accepted bailout deals from European creditors totaling hundreds of billions of euros in order to prevent the collapse of the Greek banking system. The funds kept Greece from a potential default that would force it out of the eurozone, but most of the enormous sum of money involved in the bailouts ultimately didn't end up funding public services or directly going to the Greek people." ref
True, Greece borrowed irresponsibly and spent it in wasteful ways. But the banks can not shirk their responsibility.
sed -e 's/Chuck Norris/Rajnikant/g' joke > fact
Yup, the banks got bailed out and the debt is now publicly owned. It's the creed of Wall Street: Privatize the profits, socialize the loses; then have the mainstream media pump out spin to obfuscate it. So now you have the people of the EU fighting among themselves while the banks are quite happy since they've already got their money. The only way for Greece to recover is to leave the monetary union. They can remain a member of the EU without using the euro as their currency, the UK is an example of that; but every story you read in the mainstream media implies otherwise, which simply isn't true. Government doesn't exist to make a profit, it exists for the welfare of the people. This is going to backfire big time.
...even when bearing agreements.
"Nationalism is an infantile sickness. It is the measles of the human race." -Albert Einstein
The first bailout may have been Greece's fault. Maybe even the second one. But the fact that they need a third means that Germany et. al. CAUSED the third one by giving crappy demands after the second bail out.
Clearly Greece's problems are no longer just caused by Greece, but a direct result of Germany's idiocy.
excitingthingstodo.blogspot.com
honestly, what do you expect of a 100EUR / week hotel room?
the preceding comment is my own and in no way reflects the opinion of the Joint Chiefs of Staff
Yes, why not. Play by play below, italicizes are my asides. Sorry but no TL;DR of the TL;DR, it was hard enough to summarize the whole thing.
1st paragraph: asks Greece to keep their promise this time.
To be read with German accent as it was most likely added by Germany. It echoes the statement by Merkel this weekend that says "The most important currency has been lost and that is trust".
2nd paragraph: tell Greece it is either both ESF and IMF or nothing.
Meaning Greece will most likely have to agree to another set of measures imposed by IMF.
3rd paragraph, pages 2 and 3, first item on page 4: sets the first measures to be taken and its deadlines.
Some must be voted into law by 15 July (72 hours after the meeting) and some by 22 July, next week. They are more or less the same measures that triggered the referendum last week but with a notable absence: cuts in the military
pages 4 and 5, aditional measures:
- model for privatization.
Instead of going to the public coffers it will go to a fund (managed by Greece, supervised by Europe). The assets (estimated 50B) will be split: 50/25/25. 50% to recapitalize the banks, 25B to repay loans, 25B for investiments.
- model for the supervision: all draft legislation will be subject of their (EU and IMF) consult and agreement. Greece has until 20 July to ask to be helped.
- reversal of anti austerity legislation: all of them, except the humanitarian crisis bill, must be reexamined and either reversed or replaced by an equivalent measure.
SOP for "troika" (as in group of three, EU, ECB and IMF) technicians to become the fourth power in the country during the program duration. Happened in Portugal and Ireland
end of page 5: states that Greece will need between 82 and 86B, unless it can collect more taxes or privatize better. 7 of those billion euros are needed before 20 July and 5 more before mid August. Also states that greece needs to "clear its arrears" to IMF and Bank of Greece
Sibling post has it right, this part is "Greece, pay denbts"
page 6: states that Greece either accepts the deal or banks won't reopen. Also, that it is syriza's )and whoever was its predecessor) fault by easing the policies during the last 12 months and that Eurozone can reconsider "longer grace and payment periods" but that will be "no haircuts"
Again, "Greece, stop screwing up, pay denbts, all of it"
page 7: states that if Greece accepts the deal the deal will go forward. Also, that in the next 3-5 years 35B will be mobilized to fund investment and economic activity (including SME) via EU programmes
This must be the concession Tsipras is talking about, 35B for investment including small and medium-sized entrerprises not counting towards the loan but via EU investment.
Had Germany stayed with the Deutsche Mark, they would have priced themselves out.
Had Greece stayed out of the Euro, they would now export cheaply, becoming more attractive than other players. Trade advantage would make everyone more wealthy--Greece would be down and climbing back up, while everyone else would be spending less money and leaving residual wealth in consumer pockets, which new markets could target.
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We were more or less forced to adopt Euro. This was the price for France allowing reunification. Switzerland does just fine with their own currency, Germany would be able to do so just as well.
"It's such a fine line between stupid and clever" -- David St. Hubbins, Spinal Tap
A number of Eurozone states, lead by Germany, were at a place where their governments would have been in very serious trouble had they simply repeated the process as it has rolled out to date. There were reports that if there had been another bailout like the last ones, the Finnish government would have collapsed, and Merkel certainly has been feeling intense pressure not to give in to Greek demands. The referendum seems to have been the final straw, however. The attempt to shame the Eurozone into handing Greece more money and forgiving more debt badly backfired for Tsipras.
The world's burning. Moped Jesus spotted on I50. Details at 11.
Small correction. The Greeks spend about 80 billion euros that they didn't have. The rest is interest on the loans. The 86 billion in the agreement will almost entirely go straight back to the lenders. That's how you keep debtors humble.
It's like having a leg cut and repeatedly smearing urine all over it because that takes away the pain momentarily, instead of going to the hospital and pay to have it treated^W AMPUTATED.
FTFY.
The USA (and allies) stripped Germany of science and technology and patents worth billions. The Apolo space program was only possible because of that theft.
Well, my reply to you was meant as a joke - building on your accurate observation that slashdotters rarely read anything beyond the summary.
It's amazing isn't it? We've got so much information available at the touch of our fingers, yet we can't be bothered to spend the *seconds* it would take to find a source document regarding the matter at hand. It's a sad commentary on the status of critical thinking skills among our ranks.
Anywho, it's inspiring to find another of the few here willing to fight the good fight. Maybe one day the impulsiveness rampant on the internet will fade. (I know that's absurdly optimistic.)
Indeed, whether Syriza would implement the reforms is the most important question. Varoufakis was very vocal about the need for the reforms, but he has been forced out (by the EU !). The left-left wing of Syriza is opposed. It's not clear what the majority would do, and like you I would have preferred to see some reforms passed in February and March while the negotiations were ongoing.
However, some of the reforms Germany is asking for (higher taxes, pension cuts) cause me to doubt their bona fides here. The main problem is taxes in Greece is non-payment and the informal economy. Raising taxes is likely to exacerbate this problem by increasing the motivation to evade the higher taxes. Lowering taxes and simplifying the tax system is far more likely to raise more revenue.
Similarly, the main problem with government pensions is early retirement. The solution should therefore be to raise the retirement age for those currently working, which in the long term resolve the problems without creating short-term pain. The German solution (cut pensions now) means asking current pensioners who have no prospect of other sources of income and cannot choose to go back to the jobs they retired from to help repay the national debt.
A fork in the road is approaching. Either this will be viewed in a similar light to the Treaty of Versailles and the disaster which followed that and lead to Nazi Germany:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaty_of_Versailles
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hyperinflation_in_the_Weimar_Republic
or Gunboat Diplomacy where the stick is used to beat Greece into Submission:
http://moox.ga/odore-roosevelt-big-stick-cartoon
Bankers are powerful, yet they don't realize what happens when they go too far... They may end up getting more than they bargained for, or nothing at all.
I didn't say "cut off". I said "a leg cut" as in "a cut on the leg", as in "a superficial cut, but deep enough to ooze some blood".
After all, Greece is somewhere at 2% of total EU production.
...gis sdrawkcab (usually not responding to ACs; don't bother posting as AC)
The USA (and allies) stripped Germany of science and technology and patents worth billions. The Apolo space program was only possible because of that theft.
Theft? THEFT?
Germany spent years roaming Europe quite literally stealing anything and everything they wanted to put their hands on. They were the aggressors, and owed a huge debt everyone who had to spend blood and treasure to stop them. The Germans waived their right to complain about such things when they made it their policy to deny others that right. Since then, they appear to have their heads screwed on right, and look! - nobody is any longer subjecting them to that well deserved post-war treatment. They reaped what they sowed. That's not theft, and you know it.
Don't disappoint your bird dog. Go to the range.
I'm wondering if Greece will help itself to the lavish and rich Greek Orthodox Church possessions to help repay the debt, since "the Greek Orthodox Church owns property worth some €700 billion - more than double the country’s national debt." (source, dated 2011-06-27)
"The hallmark of humanity is the ability to move beyond sensory inputs" - Mary Helen Immordino-Yang
Some must be voted into law by 15 July (72 hours after the meeting) and some by 22 July, next week. They are more or less the same measures that triggered the referendum last week but with a notable absence: cuts in the military
I still don't understand why a radical left wing government would be so extremely opposed to cuts in the military. Is that part of the agreement with their nazi coalition partners or is there a real danger of a military coup d'etat?
He probably still doesn't understand why game theory does not work in real life.
1. Greece will never be able to repay the loans. 2. Forcing the country to either default or accept further austerity is causing a humanitarian crisis in the country. 2.1 The lower middle class and poor are literally without food or care. We would not accept that in any other western country 3. Unemployment among the young is 50%. 3,1 Everyone who can leave the country is leaving 4. Trying to make Greece into an example, is forcing #2, should be abhorrent to any civilized persons. The fact that past politicians created the problem should not make it palatable to us. 5. A lot of the money that was 'loaned' to Greece, exited the country immediately in the form of purchases of German/French goods even military equipment. It's not like all these loans stayed in the country. Many loans were issued with such conditions. 6. Siphoning euros out of a struggling economy to pay debts will further deteriorate that economy.Not saying that not paying the debts is ok, just saying that action will further destroy the country. 7. Greek tourism which was the country's main source of income suffered greatly with the Euro.
Those who fail to learn from history are doomed to repeat it . . . . .
His party didn't win he election with full majority and is part of a coalition. His coalition partner, Panos Kamennos, is both the founder of the right wing party that allows the coalition to govern and also the Defence Minister.
Their finance minister got shitcanned because he wasn't an idiot and wouldn't send the Greek people into debt servitude.
Actually, he was the worst international negotiator I have ever seen in my life. He did practically everything wrong that you can do wrong in such a negotiation. He was so bad that many experts outside Greece started to believe that the main goal of the Tsipras government was to ensure a Grexit ...
It pains me to say it, being a Greek but I think it's the truth.
In 50-60 years time there will be nobody left alive remembering a time (pre-euro) when this nation, with all its dysfunctions could at least pretty much support itself.
Greece should never have joined the euro. This is clear now. Our economy just wasn't strong enough for it and we cheated to get in. I remember it being common knowledge that we did so. I cannot believe that the eurozone did not know, they just pretended not to see.
This then opened the can of worms. Suddenly so much money was available. Banks literally begged to lend you. In the mean time, the economy disintegrated as one by one industries closed shop as they could not compete anymore. But borrowed money was plenty so life was good.
Needless to say, no serious reforms were made and subsidy money was being squandered. It was obvious but nobody rang a bell at the time.
In 2009 things were bad but a newly elected Government managed to make things even worse. They lied to get elected (of course) and then strived to present the year's deficit as significantly higher than it actually was, thus bringing in the IMF. They also made sure NOT to accept a debt haircut and allowed debt to cross over to become debt to other nations as opposed to foreign banks, making a default all that much harder.
In any self respecting country, this would be considered high treason. Instead, those people are still around, appearing on TV and running for office.
Nothing really changes until 2015 when we have a left-wing government for the first time. They utterly failed to negotiate and in 6 months have barely managed to govern at all as all the time is spent negotiating.
It could very easily appear to be incompetence, and maybe to an extent it is, but seeing Germany's conduct these last few days, I believe they never really stood a chance. They were boycotted right from the get go and actually been asked to resign in favour of other "better suited" alternatives. Those who actually did nothing all those years before. Even the pretense of sovereign nations has been abandoned.
Now the whole country is practically put on mortgage to finance a debt that simply cannot be financed.
Having seen this debacle, I now wish we had exited the euro even without preparation. I'd rather go hungry for a few years and live poorly for a lot longer than spend the rest of my life being considered a "lazy greek who wants to spend and get fat pensions and beg for money". When in fact I have never even had a loan, work as hard as any other "proper" european and will likely never get a pension at all. But I too will end up paying the price for other peoples crimes.
What people fail to understand is that the Greeks aren't living beyond their means any longer. They had a primary surplus last year. The size of their debt has barely increased since mid-2013:
http://www.tradingeconomics.co...
Greece is being forced to turn over its sovereignty simply to rollover existing debt, even though the creditors know it is impossible for Greece to pay down its debt and they've known this for years.
It's disgusting. Economically they'd have been far better off going for Grexit within ten years then continuing in this charade. Also, Syriza and Tsipras wouldn't have had to make a mockery of their democracy too.
Yep. The most amazing part is that the EU has been duped to think Greece will pay them back this time for sure!!
There's other countries that are likely to follow Greece.
The Euro is currently in trouble, because a large organization with a single currency needs to be able to act as a whole and have economic and fiscal policies that benefit the whole organization. The right thing to do is to centralize more (not popular) or kick a lot of a countries out of the Eurozone (a partial failure).
"When you have eliminated the unacceptable, whatever is left, however improbable, must be the truthiness" - Holmes
EU: "We won't lend you money unless you make several structural reforms, slackers!"
Greece: "Fine, we'll file bankruptcy and leave the UE. That's too many reforms all at once."
EU: "But you can't bail, it will destabilize the markets and hurt the EU!"
Greece: "So? That's your problem. Either lend us the money or we bail and go our own way."
EU: "(Sigh), okay, here's the check..."
Table-ized A.I.
So many people just buy the BS rhetoric: "Greece spent too much." It seems like so few bother to study the issues or actually look at multiple examples around the globe. Greece collapsed like others before it: for the benefit of big banks & their profits. I'm not going to bother explaining the whole situation, I doubt many would even bother to read it if I did.
For those few who are curious, here's a decent starting place and this one too.
For those who can't be bothered to read, here's a 2 min video that explains it in terms of "privatization" that will benefit foreign companies.
The problem stems from the currency. The EU consists of sovereign states that are not bound together as tightly as states in the U.S., but their economies are now coupled by the Euro.
Can you imagine if places like South Carolina and Mississippi had to pay California back all the money they receive in federal funding from California taxpayers? They'd have to throw up their hands and start using Confederate dollars again.
Comment removed based on user account deletion
Because they don't control their own money. They have the Euro. The only way for them to print their own money is to leave the Euro.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?...
-- Fuck Beta
Why does the US wish for the Euro to be a failure ?
Because a successful Euro would supplant the dollar as the primary world currency, with an associated loss of control, prestige and commercial benefits to the US.
If Germany starts 'the repo process' then it's WWIII.
I will not let my Government stand by and watch Germany invade another NATO nation.
It's a cheap way to teach politicians and europhiles that joining the Euro would be a fucking nightmare.
You are an idiot. Debts that are not repaid by creating actual economic output and instead used for consumption purposes do not generate economic growth.
You can't handle the truth.
What the fuck are you talking about? My models give predictions that work exactly as they are supposed to, which is why I knew about the coming 2008 collapse, the coming USD collapse and of-course as a result of the USD collapse the coming bond market collapse. My model does not try to predict the exact timing of the collapse, that's impossible.
Your model predicts that if you print more money you will need to print more money, that's all it does.
I lived in Germany for such a long time that I can with absolute certainty tell you that any inefficiency in that economy is only caused by the monetary policy that you espouse - printing money. They absolutely should not print money, the Swiss are showing them how its done. Greeks can never repay their debts and it doesn't matter how much an 'average Greek' is working. You can be 'working' digging ditches and filling them up all you want, which is exactly the model that you espouse, you and other morons like Krugman. Germans can absolutely afford to work fewer hours, as they are very efficient because of the capital that they built up and created the tools that make them so efficient.
You have no idea what productivity is, you have no idea what efficiency means. In the former USSR people were 100% occupied and produced JACK SHIT compared to 'lazy' almost anybody at the time.
You can't handle the truth.
What the fuck are you talking about? My models give predictions that work exactly as they are supposed to, which is why I knew about the coming 2008 collapse
No, you haven't. Where is that hyperinflation caused by all this fiat money? Hiding under the bed? Why hasn't the stock market collapsed once QE had stopped?
the coming USD collapse and of-course as a result of the USD collapse the coming bond market collapse.
Oh, a coming collapse. Is it like the second coming of Jesus? When are we going to see it? The century or the next one?
I'm willing to bet 1kg of gold (or its equivalent in any other reliable currency) that there'll be no USD collapse (defined as sustained hyperinflation or exchange rate collapse) in the coming 3 years. Do you wish to enter this bet?
Hyperinflation is the worst case scenario, just because somebody is smoking doesn't mean they will die from cancer, but they will have serious health consequences. Hyperinflation is cancer that smoker gets, it doesn't mean it's inevitable. I never said hyperinflation is inevitable. I am saying that currency crisis is inevitable. It will either result in a huge spike of interest rates set by the market and the Feds will stand back (fat chance) or it will result in constant pressure by the Feds printing to prevent the huge spike of interest rates, collapsing the currency with very high inflation. Hyperinflation is only one possible outcome of many other horrible outcomes.
As to the stock market - it is in a bubble, so is bond market, which is the largest bubble. However you are so fucking stupid, you don't realise that in case of hyperinflation (or even just very high inflation) the stock market is where money flows to OUT of currency. Everybody is trying to buy something to get out of the inflated currency.
USA is much bigger than Greece, its debts are gigantic compared to Greece, but it is outsourcing its inflation to the rest of the world. The Chinese are printing to absorb inflation created by the USA Fed and Chinese prices are going up. USA is seeing rising prices that is some of its inflation making it back home from around the world, this process accelerates.
Your entire position is that of an idiot, saying that just because the patient is not dead yet, the course he is on is ok.
The smoker doesn't have cancer yet - keep smoking.
You read my previous comment, where I specifically said I do not predict exact timing, only the most likely scenarios based on the course of action that is being taken and you immediately goad me into making a TIME BET? What the fuck is wrong with you, what the brain has completely dried out in that idiotic head of yours?
Oh, and as I said: USSR - 100% occupancy. SO fucking what?
You can't handle the truth.
The point is Greece would go bankrupt today if Germany wasn't so keen on exacerbating their pain.
Time is what keeps everything from happening all at once.
I never said hyperinflation is inevitable.
You did. Don't lie.
You read my previous comment, where I specifically said I do not predict exact timing, only the most likely scenarios based on the course of action that is being taken and you immediately goad me into making a TIME BET? What the fuck is wrong with you, what the brain has completely dried out in that idiotic head of yours?
So you're telling me that your predictions are true. But they are just delayed by an unspecified amount of time, rapidly approaching infinity.
How about the same bet for the next 5 years, then? I'd bet for an even longer time, but I have much better use for my money over longer periods.
So how about this - we both put 1kg of gold in an escrow account with a reputable company and in 5 years I take all of it. If in the meantime an incident of hyperinflation happens, then you take all of the gold immediately. Are you willing to follow through your believes?
Don't have 1kg of gold now? I'm willing to give you a once-in-a-lifetime opportunity! You can place an IOU for $40000 into escrow instead of gold (I'll be placing real gold bullion).
Please be specific. These are German bankers we are talking about. Deutcshland Ucber Alles!!
Time is what keeps everything from happening all at once.
I doubt anybody in EU think they (greece) will repay all. but what they want is a meaningful reform and a sign that greece attempt to pay *part* of it and reform itself so that in future they don't go into new spending spree. The last bit being important because if they stay in the EU with restructured debt, if there is no meaningful reform to limit new borrowing and spending.... Then in 10 years we are back to the same crisis. This is the last part that the "forgive all greece debt" camp seem to overlook.
C. Sagan : A demon haunted world:
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0345409469/
visit randi.org
What I find fascinating is that:
1) The sums are gigantic and no way could the Greek People incur that sort of debt.
2) Most if not all of the Bailout money goes to Germany's and EU's banks. while 5% of the total bailout will be used to capitalize EU banks in Greece.
3) Greece is forced to sell most of its assets, including such things as islands, airports and public historical monuments to private EU bankers.
Finally, how the Greek PM royally screwed the Greek people. Since most of the assets will be stolen by the bankers, there is no possible way the economy will ever recover under those conditions to pay any of the money back ever.
So it would seem the end game for these little dealings is the countries natural resources and assets.
The EU bankers (Troika) could care less about the paper, they want the assets.
It is fascinating to watch a people completely sell themselves into slavery and subjugation.
Grab the popcorn this is going to get really good about a year from now when te average guy on the street finally figures it out.
Got Geometrodynamics? Awe, too hard to figure out? Too bad.
They haven't. They simply have their own constituents to answer to, so they kicked the ball ahead to their successors. By the time Greek debt they're creating here matures, it will be our grand-grandchildren who will have to think about n+1st Greek bailout to pay for it.
I'm really interested how our government here in Finland will hold over it. They have "no increased exposure to Greek debt" written into their government policy cornerstone paper just a few months ago when they created the government. I suspect there will be some massive waves, and the Finns party who was the key party behind that statement will take a massive popularity hit if they stay in the government and Tsipras actually manages to sell this awful deal to his parliament.
It does work quite well. If you don't tell everyone you're employing game theory so they can work out your bluffing.
When you let the Masters of the Universe (TM) take over, you get chaos, destruction, and fear. Better to simply say no.
That is all.
So if i lie to a bank to obtain a loan, the load has no legal standing? Is that really your argument?
"It's amazing isn't it? We've got so much information available at the touch of our fingers, yet we can't be bothered to spend the *seconds* it would take to find a source document regarding the matter at hand."
But that might mean us finding out that we were wrong about something, and no one is ever wrong on the internet.
The horror! The horror!
I mean, the US and the UK did, after invading and conquering Iraq, stating that they took responsibility, and that they had invaded and conquered.
Alternatively, I propose that Greek citizens be entitled to vote in the German national elections.
mark
They should donate money to Greece. Greece has a lot of geopolticial importance and serves as a stopgap in a lot of ways. Their larger than normal military expenditures allow Germany to have lower than normal military expenditures.
Your ad here. Ask me how!
If you can't PRINT currency, you cease to exist as a nation. You're no different than a Corporation; http://www.lietaer.com/2010/03...
When you borrow money, you are actually borrowing it from your future. Yes it is the creditors who gave you the money, but you pay it back to them in the future. The net effect is then that you are taking money from your future, and spending it today.
You have it completely right, of course, and Gov. Schwarzenegger had it completely wrong when he subversively convinced millions of fellow Californians that deficit spending is "a gift from the future." (The citizens of the future will correctly view it as "larceny from the past.")
Increase avreage Greek productivity. That's what the privatization requirements and other reform measures in this package aim to do.
I don't hear anyone arguing with this. Which is interesting; basically everyone is admitting that private enterprises are able to extract more productivity than state-owned enterprises.
In other circumstances, some people forget this principle and argue vehemently for nationalization (as with single-payer healthcare -- as if eliminating the plurality of insurers who compete with each other on the basis of low premiums, would somehow cause premiums to fall).
That that is is that that that that is not is not.
O'RLY.
To paraphrase Churchill: at the end of the night, I fucked up on a date. At the end of the week, you're a fuckup who can't read and has no idea what power a chairman has. I'll speak slowly and use small words:
To start with, Gates was Ballmer's boss. You do know that the CEO answers to the board of directors, yes? You also know that Microsoft hasn't lost their dominance because Ballmer picked the wrong release date for Office 2010 or hired a slacker for Marketing, yes?
They've been left behind by their lack of vision. Vision can come from the CEO - but it can also come from the Board. You know, the people in charge of the overall welfare of the company, not just day to day operations? At any number of times, Gates could have called up Ballmer to talk about how to get ahead of this iPod thing. Or this Amazon thing. Or this iPhone thing. Or this Facebook thing - which at one point Microsoft could have bought for a couple billion, couch money for them. Acquisitions that would be approved by.....the Board of Directors. Chaired by Bill.
But none of that happened, because Gates has no more vision than Ballmer, not because he no longer had a powerful position at the company.
Which was my point from the beginning.
So frequently, eh? Can you even name the last time? I like to know what I'm talking about, as I don't suffer fools gladly, and there are a lot of fools around here. Like people who don't bother to take two seconds to read that Gate's retirement was already mentioned, and have no idea WTF they're talking about when it comes to corporate executives.
So how about you, Xest? Still writing third rate propaganda demanding harsh action on Iran, when the NPT allows them to enrich uranium at any level they choose, and for the nuclear weapons program that even Mossad says they don't have?
Aww bless, my very own cyberstalker, and one that's nearly always wrong on the internet too! How on topic!