Slashdot Mirror
Reddit CEO: Site Is 'Not a Bastion of Free Speech,' Change Coming
An anonymous reader writes: Reddit's new CEO, cofounder Steve Huffman, has made a statement regarding the site's controversial racism- and abuse-related community "subreddits." He said, "we don't have any obligation to support them." In the brief announcement, Huffman explains that a robust content policy is something they have "been thinking about for quite some time" and is in the cards in the near future. It has also come to light via former CEO Yishan Wong that ousted interim boss Ellen Pao was one of the few defenders of the controversial subreddits, favoring a strategy of coexistence over the board's plan to eliminate problem communities. Wong blames another co-founder, Alexis Ohanian, for strategy changes that led to the firing of "Ask Me Anything" administrator Victoria Taylor whose unexpected absence crippled that component of the site.
Winter?
Means no more page views from me. I really enjoyed the idea of a site that managed to keep the racists corralled into their own little playpen while the adults had quality discussion.
If you're interested in a Reddit-like site that won't arbitrarily close your subreddit and shadowban you because they don't like what you're talking about, voat.co is shaping up pretty nicely.
Karma: Terrifying (mostly affected by atrocities you've committed)
And now all the whiny punks who insist on their right to be assholes and douchebags will come out of the woodwork.
The butthurt bitches will start talking about "teh evil SJWs".
And a bunch of morons will demand their right to be offensive and threatening for no other reason than it's fun.
The reality is guys, you being punks, assholes, douchebags and morons is your problem, and not the rest of ours.
But, hey, you can still hang out in your mom's basement and have your little circle jerks as you tell yourselves you're really cool.
I hope they move stuff around the site just for the sake of moving stuff!
Time to head for https://voat.co/
Dice can add Reddit to their list of ruined websites!
Seriously. Everyone is so bloody sensitive today. When will people learn to just close their browser when something offends them. The internet is going to be ruined by these 'triggered' types.
"we don't have any obligation to support them."
Nor do the redditors have any obligation to keep visiting the site.
This isn't about obligations, it's about ethics.
Slashdot social media options: AIM, ICQ, Yahoo, Jabber and Mobile Text. Why no MySpace?
I've left sites that didn't support free speech before, and lo and behold, I've left reddit. Good riddance.
I'm not saying I agree with racism, or the like. However; freedom of speech starts with the right to say something I don't like.
Of course they're a big company now, and they have no obligation to accept the principle of freedom of speech. However; I have no obligation to frequent their website.
http://www.forbes.com/sites/ka...
This would be amusing if there wasn't so much awfulness in what people are doing.
So... a virtual lynchmob went after Pao because they decided she must be an "SJW" because she once sued a former employer for sexual harassment. They interpreted a closure of a subreddit that was harassing people in real life as being content based, and by Pao, because they assumed that was what a straw-SJW would do. When a popular employee was subsequently fired, Pao's attackers assumed it must have been her that did it, because the previous day there'd been a not-terrible-pleasant IAMA with Jesse Jackson, and as a straw-SJW, Pao would be very upset that Reddit might have possibly offended Jackson. This theory made no sense whatsoever, but the virtual lynchings got worse anyway.
And it turns out that Pao was supporting them all along - that is, arguing against a board that did actively want to remove the more offensive subreddits, and not actually the person who pushed out the fired employee.
I'm seeing a hell of a lot of people who:
1. Label someone who says something that makes them slightly uncomfortable an "SJW".
2. Assume that because their victim is an SJW (because they labelled them one), they must be a straw-SJW
3. Ascribing positions and acts to their victims, misinterpreting the words they say, and creating the most absurd conspiracy theories about their victims, simply because that's what a straw-SJW would do.
Maybe the outrageous way Pao was dealt with will make a few people stop and think about the wisdom of that. Unfortunately, I suspect many will just dig further, unable or at least reluctant to question their assumptions, for fear that their behaviour might have been wrong.
You are not alone. This is not normal. None of this is normal.
How about adult subreddits? Fetishist subreddits? Political subreddits that you might find offensive, such as Men's Rights? Religious subreddits that you probably find offensive, like Scientology? Do we ban vaccine deniers and conspiracy theorists? People that talk about piracy?
In Reddit's quest to become mainstream, it has lost something.
http://www.forbes.com/sites/kashmirhill/2012/02/02/reddit-co-founder-alexis-ohanians-rosy-outlook-on-the-future-of-politics/3/
Speaking of the founding fathers, I ask him what he thinks they would have thought of Reddit.
"A bastion of free speech on the World Wide Web? I bet they would like it," he replies. It's the digital form of political pamplets.
As long those changes reflect the values of Jesse Jackson and Hillary Clinton.
Thank you, Reddit-man!
...who we have no obligation to support. I'm sure that'll work out great, particularly once all the users have gone to voat.co
The words "fucking moron" come to mind.
until you defend someone else's right to say something you disagree with. As for the pictures, if they're real, then that's already illegal and I have no doubt a dozen TLAs are already watching.
Having an outlet in text for these kinds of things is far better than having none and then having these people act it out for real in their areas. It can also give people a head's up since some of these people post their manifesto before they act out.
Life is full of unpleasant things. Making it illegal to talk about them does not make them go away; it just allows them to grow in the dark.
Site gets some VC money and thinks they can make a profit.
Site realizes they need to make changes but changes cheese off the majority of it's user base and they go elsewhere.
Site becomes a ghost town.
Remember Fark? Remember Digg? This is what will happen with Reddit. First they came for the fatties, and I didn't care because I don't have condishons. Then they came for the racists and I didn't care because I'm not racist. But then they came for the rest of the site and no one was left
2012: Speaking of the founding fathers, I ask him what he [Alexis Ohanian] thinks they would have thought of Reddit. "A bastion of free speech on the World Wide Web? I bet they would like it," he replies. It's the digital form of political pamplets."
2015: "Neither Alexis nor I created Reddit to be a bastion of free speech, but rather as a place where open and honest discussion can happen."
I closed my Reddit account, the drama is just beyond me and I'm happy to return to the living.
I hate the idea of major sites like Reddit, Fark, etc. giving up what made them popular: being a sanctuary for people to communicate things as they see fit. But I also accept that once an online community becomes sufficiently large, they will need to:
(1) Bring in revenue to support the people maintaining the site and to pay for the hardware/bandwidth required to actually have a site to support.
(2) Those who provide revenue will impose requirements upon the site that will erode what previously defined the community.
(3) When a community gets sufficiently large, they attract people who weren't part of the original concept and they will demand to be catered to. This will require further erosion of the community's core principles to facilitate because, since revenue's needed, those managing the community must make everyone feel welcomed.
(4) Be ready for lawsuits from people who do not accept the original principles, but want to be part of the community regardless.
This happens with ALL communities and this looks to be Reddit's semi-collapse. Reddit won't die-- not by a long shot. But many will leave and what made Reddit most distinctive from other sites will be watered down. That's called death by success.
Does Reddit have power to amend the constitution? No? Then why are you all crying? You can still speak all the hate you want to elsewhere on the internet. Heck you could even do it in public, you cowards. Go outside and talk to other humans, you'll be interested to know that most of them are not going to put up with your bullshit.
I should probably try this site out now that it's almost dead.
I think we all know where I'm going here...
An enigma, wrapped in a riddle, shrouded in bacon and cheese
https://www.reddit.com/r/annou...
http://reddit.com/r/BoFS
We're catching these fuckers in their lies left and right.
Still waiting on Serviscope_minor to wake up to fucking reality and realize that Jessica Price isn't going to fuck him.
"We don't have any obligation to support them" - but do you have an obligation to remove them? How about this: don't fuck with the content unless it's a legal liability, something like child porn. (Providing it, not just discussing it.)
Freedom of speech is an individual's limited freedom to publish their thoughts. It is not freedom to be published by anybody: CNN or Fox don't have to publish everything you send them, and neither does Reddit or any other company for that matter.
In particular, the First Amendment to the U.S. Constitution is as follows:
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.
It says nothing about corporations limiting free speech, because corporations cannot limit free speech. If you're 'silenced' by Reddit you're still free to post a sign in your front yard or pay for a website to be hosted yourself out of your own pocket.
So much for "an open conversation about race."
Although the process usually involves butt-hurt, every once in a while, you DO get someone who hates [group] (blacks, Republicans, gays, Christians, whatever) to moderate their viewpoint (and often become an advocate within their community) after ENGAGING them in an open forum like reddit or Slashdot.
In fact, that's the whole principal behind America, the UN, etc. - let's TALK it out in public rather than wall ourselves off in a bunch of isolated bomb-throwing communities.
And good riddance to them!
If people see it as just a corporate forum it will implode.
Free(ish) expression is the bait, the lured users are the product and the advertisers are the customers.
If you don't have good bait, no users and soon no advertisers.
Giving the hive mind a lobotomy is not going to work, we'll just put a pillow over its face.
If you do Web 2.0 correctly the users are the star of the show. Reddit is taking centre stage here and it's a bad plan.
I wish I was a reddit regular so I could stop going there.
Having an outlet in text for these kinds of things is far better than having none and then having these people act it out for real in their areas. It can also give people a head's up since some of these people post their manifesto before they act out.
This is a popular argument for sure, but is there actual evidence for it? It's possible that "venting" dangerous desires in a controlled setting prevents people from acting on them, but it seems equally possible that it could lead to the escalation of those desires through exposure to new fantasies and the support of like-minded people.
It just seems like a really dangerous assumption to make.
Assuming free speech should be banned to control what people can talk about within the public eye is more dangerous. That is what matters.
Neither Alexis nor I created reddit to be a bastion of free speech, but rather as a place where open and honest discussion can happen.
Looking past the fact that those things are intrinsically connected, I can't understand why anyone is concerned about free speech on Reddit when it has yet to succeed at facilitating the "open and honest discussion" its founders apparently wanted. With its favoritist voting system turning every discussion into a popularity contest and inconsistent moderation based on feelings and biases rather than a set of unambiguous rules, Reddit has never been anything more than an echo chamber for dedicated users to be able to stifle opposing views and bully users who dare to express them.
Regardless of what content its administration decides to allow or support, or whatever policy changes they may or may not make, Reddit's users inherently oppose free speech themselves by simply using the site as intended. To suddenly rally and act like you care about free speech is unabashed hypocrisy; you should never have been using Reddit in the first place.
The freeddit.org domain is still free. Pop a webserver/database/forum on it, declare it a Free Speech Zone, and you're done. You run a site, you decide what you want on it, and what not.
When the copyright term is "forever minus a day", live every day like it's the last.
https://xkcd.com/1357/
"We're being threatened by the Federal Government for facilitating free speech, including anti-government speech, terrorist speech, racist speech, and other forms of speech the State disapproves of."
And here's Alexis Ohanion, in 2012, calling Reddit... yes.... "a bastion of free speech".
I wonder how high they had to stack the bags of money to get this sort of backpedaling?
> Wong blames Alexis Ohanian, for the firing of Victoria Taylor
If this is true I'm impressed with Pao for taking the high road and taking the abuse instead of blaming it on someone else.
I love corporate drama like any other guy, but this is starting to get ridiculous.
The corporate body is clearly WAY out of touch with its userbase. By banning the, "not so nice" content for an IPO they've alienated not only the trolls but the live and let be crowd which is way larger than the troll base could be. Imagine Slashdot pulling some stunt like that, there would be a massive move to the exit.
I foresee Reddit becoming a former shell of itself much like Myspace and Digg. Shame because there's quite a bit of archived content on it worth reading.
This story only recently broke, and already there are several comments intended to preempt objections, ostensibly by lonely white males yearning for an open forum to complain about SJWs and discuss fantasies, as if that preemption had a deep grounding in some service to civility. It's both amusing and saddening to see that type of naivete on display.
While it'd be nice if people would abide by "community guidelines" for civil communication in a public forum, both in terms of proposing arguments and reacting to them, any time such standards are imposed as a filter, broad abuses of those guidelines soon follow. I mean, one of the few things as enticing as spreading your own idea is quashing those ideas you think are wrong. When argumentation fails to combat a competing idea, either because the idea actually has merit or because its proponents are unrelenting in their dogged adherence to it, few people possess the ability to just set the argument aside and move on. When there's a mechanism in place to censor those arguments, right or wrong, people will use it, justifying their censorship with all manner of rationalizations.
For example, lets consider something like the deservedly maligned Atheism+, a group ostensibly meant for atheists who care about social justice issues. At the heart of their charter is a divisive "us vs. them" mentality for anyone opposed to their exact ideology, complete with community expulsion and censorship of opposing views. I won't go into detail regarding their practices, since others have already done so, but I will pose this question: Is a movement so bent on communication controls really their to promote understanding, or domination?
Finally, while I don't necessarily think that Reddit will become something nearly so toxic as Atheism+, I think it's important to understand how Atheism+ got where it is, and understand that the principles that got it there don't have to be relegated to minor movements. Though I don't personally go there often, Reddit is important, and is important for several people. To undermine the foundations of free speech upon which it is built is to empower those seeking domination (who don't have to be governments), and it can happen faster and on a broader scale than many of us would care to consider.
"Is not a sentence" is not a sentence. Well damn.
It's sad that we need free speech zones on the Internet and a Tor-based onion site setup. I think the only people willing and interested in doing this are liberty-minded proponents. Unfortunately such individuals are targets of the government.
People want to be censored. People don't want free speech for anyone but themselves. They just cling to a pretense of it because it makes them feel good.
Reddit is a great experiment in what humans are actually capable of. Turns out, it's not much.
If you can't go to a public place and openly discuss whatever it is you're hiding on TOR, then you have a reason to be paranoid.
Why aren't there any raccoon pictures in Coontown?
What does "SJW" mean?
I think the main problem for Huffman here is that, substantive issues aside, he completely blew off the accepted protocol for making announcements like these. You're SUPPOSED to say it like this:
"I support free speech, BUT [thing that totally undermines free speech]."
If you deviate from the formula even slightly, the incantation doesn't work. Your ass is uncovered. He might as well have gestured to his genitals and said "I got your free speech right here."
So you got Ellen Pao fired for nothing... the new agenda is clearly with _the people that hired her_ and that thought hiring her after her big public lawsuit was a good idea
They can offer to keep all the horrific subreddits open, BUT everyone from mods to posters can ONLY join by using their real, independently-verified name, which will be permanently and permanently displayed.
You want to scream racist, misogynist crap or advocate mass-murder or man-boy love in the town square? Do it with a 'Hello, My Name Is' tag.
And no, this would not chill unpopular free speech; into would chill unpopular cowardly speech of those that don't have the courage to match their ignorant hatreds.
I would still post on the tech subreddits and come here to post my misogynistic cisfantasies about Natalie Portman naked and most of all, petrified.
Clinton's victim was an intern. Sexual Harassment by definition. Massive power imbalance and misuse of influence at the very least.
She was nearly thirty years his junior and still in her psychologically and sexually formative years. Yes a 21-year old is legal, but is still not fully mature. Brain is still developing.
His behavior was abusive, and his attitude to the whole "affair" (essentially a stylized rape) that of a psychopath. He destroyed her life, career, and seriously damaged her mental health, enjoyment of life, etc.
Clinton is a typical leader - an amoral monster who only manipulates people's needs and desires to his own ends. He is exactly the type of person a true progressive should find abhorrent, but those using the progressive or liberal side as just a political chip embrace this loathsome excuse for a human being.
Your founding fathers regularly impregnated underage slaves.In other words real rape, perpetrated on the actual bodies of live people, with actual, physical repercussions including pregnancy and sometimes death.
This is to say nothing of the abuse, torture and outright killing of slaves in general.
I hardly think those founding fathers would notice, let alone even blush at, the relatively completely innocuous actions you list.
Bye bye Reddit, it's been nice knowing you!
I'm no lawyer but i would guess the people who would use voat from the USA are still bound by its laws meaning no uploading of X-girlfriend images without permission, underage nudes being uploaded whatever the law may be. Maybe a lawyer could answer that?
Jack of all trades,master of none
Atlanta NAACP Says “They Can Sand Blast Lee, Jefferson Davis, And Jackson” Off Stone Mountain"
NO. just NO. I do not think this should be done.
History cannot be erased.
It can be forgotten.
I would agree with the sandblasting when no more cars have chains around the license plate.
Tips for Trolling: ASCII Art
One of the most creative ways to express ones self in Slashdot's forums is with graphical, artistic representations; art. Since Slashdot (unfortunately for trolls) does not allow the embedding of objects, such as images and sounds, in HTML-coded comments, graphics must be constructed using textual characters: ASCII art.
The Emoticon
One of the most common, and simple, forms of ASCII art is the emoticon (emotion + icon), often used to reveal the mood or tone of a comment, and also known as "smilies" or "faces". Some common examples and their generally accepted meanings follow :) :P
happy; joking; silly
playfully teasing; sarcasm
=:o
being Chinese; freshly-soiled pants; a surprise stick up the ass (all associated with Signal 11)
The variety of emoticons is virtually limitless; one can construct many obscure or weird "faces" with imagination being the only limit; however, most true trolls would rather leave the tone and mood of their posts a little vague. The use of emoticons is typically relegated to inter-troll communiques and complex trolling effects in posts (i.e., adding an extra layer of ingenuity to the post in hopes of responses).
The Emoticon Database houses thousands of these smilies and their (sometimes) obscure meanings. A useful resource should one need smilies in their troll posts.
Simple Graphics
There are several options for graphics a little more complex than emoticons but less complex than full-blown masterpieces of textual art. A few, in fact, have become standard or popular on Slashdot.
The Penis Bird
0)
( \
x
8===D
Based on this picture, and usually accompanied by that URL, the Penis Bird is a well-known troll on Slashdot. Usually posted mindlessly, which in itself is fine and funny, the Penis Bird can be used to accent arguments, or as a finishing stroke in a well-formed (or poorly formed, for the matter) troll post. Think of the Penis Bird as a final punch in a boxing match.
The Phallus
8===D
8===O
This ASCII representation of the male penis is a standard not only on Slashdot but throughout the Internet at large. Simple, unassuming, and to the point, the Phallus is the basis of many ASCII phallic variants, which appear below. Uses for this unique appendage range from emphasizing an argument (e.g., calling someone a homosexual, followed by the Phallus, finally followed by “you eat it!” or some similar phrase), or to just remind Slashdot readers that, yes, there are penises everywhere, even in Slashdot's forums.
The Phallus, Reversed
C===B
C===3
A Phallus, Ejaculating
8===O - - - --- -
A Phallus about to enter a wide-open vulva
8===D (O )
Thank you.
So what if there is? Do you really think making a skin head or klansman who owns a bakery bake a cake for a black family is anything other than a power play to force them to accept society's values when they're otherwise content to leave the people they hate alone? Does it even make sense to want to be served by someone who hates you? No, it doesn't. You are playing Russian Roulette with the possibility of them doing something spiteful, if not evil, to you. Particularly so because you are smugly forcing them to "accept you" and do business with you.
Speaking of wedding cakes, ever notice that gay rights activists are only going after Christians? Plenty of Muslims sell baked goods and cater weddings too. The difference is that if a Muslim version of Sweet Cakes by Melissa were attacked by gay rights activists, the gay community knows that someone in the Muslim community might at least burn down the couple's home, if not murder them in retaliation for attacking a Muslim business.
Reddit? News for wannabe nerds, stuff that doesn't matter.
Because there's too much pee in this pool. At least half of you in this entire 'discussion' don't deserve 'freedom of speech', because what comes out of your mouths makes feces and vomit look attractive in comparison. You argue like spoiled little babies just for the sake of arguing. Know how I can tell? Between the usage of debate terminology, and the base insults, it's blindingly obvious. Idiots like you are what are ruining the Internet for everyone else. Please discontinue your posting your drivel on the Internet until you can learn to control yourselves, or grow up to be an actual adult (regardless of age).
First there were grammar Nazi. Now there are Slashdot moderation Nazi splitting hairs on usage.
Can we please focus on discussing the posted story?
Your founding fathers would weep. Marrying single digit aged girls was legal in the USA until 1930, and yes men did so: pursuit of happiness. ( and freedom of religion: bible allows child marriage as is obvious to anyone who's took a look at the original language ). Your founding fathers wouldn't like the woman's country the us has become since the late 1870s
Real life, away from a computer screen, is what people who are not basement-dwelling misanthropes do.
If I never visit Reddit or Slashdot again, it won't be a loss that matters much to me, if at all.
There's a great big world out there and a lot of cool stuff in it. And at the end of the day, discussions
on some website don't mean shit and accomplish nothing. In other words, all this stuff is a waste of time.
You may not think that matters, but when you realize you have only a few days left on earth, you'll
think again, I promise you.