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Techies Hire Witch To Protect Computers From Viruses and Offices From Spirits
schwit1 writes: It may seem like your computer or smartphone is possessed by an evil spirit sometimes when a mysterious bug keeps causing an app to crash, but if you truly think your machine has been invaded by an evil spirit, there's someone who will take your call — Reverend Joey Talley. A Wiccan witch from the San Francisco Bay Area, Talley claims to solve supernatural issues for techies. Business Insider reports: "Talley’s website says she welcomes issues too unusual or dangerous to take the the straight world of Western helpers. But she also says no problem is too big or small, even, perhaps, your printer malfunctioning. However before you jump on the phone, you should be aware that Talley’s services do not come cheap. She charges $200 an hour (though a phone consultation is free)."
There is no cure for absolute fucking stupidity.
And why hasn't she been arrested for fraud? This is clearly not "entertainment" like most psychics claim they perform.
Where was she when slashdot went down on Thursday?
Two links to the same article, well played.
The Christian POV is that witches don't necessarily realize that they've made a pact with the devil: a demon will be the slave of the witch during the remainder of their lifetime on Earth (the demon is the source of their powers), and when they die their soul will become the slave of the demon in Hell for eternity. That might be why some are interested in life extension technology.
But there is
http://www.darwinawards.com/
Probably about as effective as most AV products or the average clueless outsourced support-monkey.
How is this different from any other tech consultant? Seriously, if you sold Real Estate the same way software is sold you would go to prison. If you sold used cars the same way software is sold you would go to prison.
putting the 'B' in LGBTQ+
It's nonsense like this that is the direct result of lowering hiring standards in order to get a requisite quota of women and minorities employed where they should not be.
For only $150 I'll do the same, except I can also chase away evil Norse spirits knows to attack apple hardware. Why choose a simple Wiccan that can only handle the basic underworld IT problems when you can hire a true multi spirtual IT expert and chase away Norse, Germanic, Greek, Aztec, american Indian, Chinese and even Ancient Egyptian and Syrian spirits?
For a limited time only for only $15,000 a year I will proactively protect ALL your IT equipment from spirits from my location on two of the largest lay lines in the americas.
Do not look at laser with remaining good eye.
Why is this stupid bullshit on the front page? Kick its ass back to idle if you absolutely have to have it on /. at all.
We are haveing a hard time finding tech people who are also Wiccan witch so we need X3 more h1b's to find them.
If you're going to pay a witch to do something to your computers, at least hire a cute one.
"Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic." - Arthur C. Clarke
Free as in "the Truth shall set you..."
My thoughts exactly as I was reading this summary. You can't fix stupid!
weigh the same as a duck?
This is from the more enteraining SFWeekly article that the TFA from BusinessInsider plagarizes:
Talley has become something of a den mother to Bay Area women interested in Wicca. In the backyard of her Fairfax duplex, hemmed by a rustic board fence and lush greenery, she emcees monthly moon rituals during which she and a handful of female clients chant into a cauldron, fall in and out of trances, and eat a vegetarian potluck. Men aren't welcome. "I used to invite men but they were just there to get laid," Talley tells me. "They had no interest in goddess worship, and that's very annoying when you're trying to reach the divinity.
It's nonsense [...]
You'd be a case in point. Though it may be that the club of knowledge, appropriately wielded may have some enlightening effect. Can't hurt to try - well, it might hurt you, but that's a small price to pay.
Who're the stupids here? The clients of the witch? The submitter for relaying this asinine story? Or the /. editors for thinking so little of us readers? I'd've never thought /. would sink to Digg levels... I'd've preferred to kill this time and brain cells with too much booze or a friendly game of bashing my head against a wall.
Don't listen to that hack! Norse spirits, my butt! Everyone knows that Norse spirits play no role in Apple hardware, there were no apples in Scandinavia and hence these spirits know nothing how to deal with Apple products. As everyone who has at least a HINT of a clue when it comes to technospirits knows, most likely when you're dealing with a possessed Apple product you have a Greek spirit at your hands. Hesperides anyone? But in the case of evil Apple spirits, it is almost invariably some ploy of Eris you're dealing with. Fuck, doesn't anyone know his mythology these days anymore?
Fucking hacks! Don't trust anyone but a ordained Discordian pope (like myself) to deal with stuff like that! Don't put your valuable data into jeopardy!
Yes, getting your spirits warded by a genuine pope of the Church of Eris is pricey (my rates start at 300 for a first consultation) but would you rather pay 150 to that hack and get NOTHING in return? You deserve a better service than that!
(Yes, I'm working in consulting. Why are you asking?)
We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
Any technology distinguishable from magic is not sufficiently advanced.
We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
Careful what you wish for.
I had to deal with a secretary who was into this new age mumbo jumbo. As long as she was doing the crystal shit I didn't really care much (except that it was sometimes a bit tricky working with her PC since none of the crystals were allowed to be moved so I don't disturb ... whatever oolamoola they created).
It was a tad more difficult to explain to her that computers and their problems can NOT be healed sensibly, but very well created and augmented, with magnets.
We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
How about an exorcism to rid oneself from stupidity? Cure for ignorance is education, but maybe to cure from stupidity one needs a witch?
You can't handle the truth.
You might be on to something. Now if you just add that the smart people end up hiring the stupid people to be armed and around them to protect them while decrying the evils of guns, you might have a solid theory on your hands.
Oh and no, I wasn't being sarcastic. I think it's stupid for people to arm themselves and put their life in danger in order to protect some rich asshat or politician or whatever that seems to have pissed enough people off that they fear for their lives for the pittance of salary a lot of these people make. It seems like all the largest mouth pieces against guns sure have a lot of them around in the hands of hired help to protect them.
Wow, really up to date aren't we?
Nothing is too dangerous to take the the.
I am neither a woman nor a minority. Your attempt at snide has failed due to your incoherent statement.
Yeah, those guys that took up arms to build this nation in the first place, and did their best to include protections allowing us to retain the power to do so as needed, those guys were complete morons.
Which witch?
I am neither a woman nor a minority.
We can tell.
Whoosh.
And, watch out for the club!
Maybe you'd like to go into more detail with this bit? "women and minorities employed where they should not be" Maybe start by telling us which jobs women and minorities SHOULD NOT be employed in?
"Windows is like the faint smell of piss in a subway: it's there, and there's nothing you can do about it." - Charlie Br
Developers, real estate, Ceos fresh out of college, ideas on napkins worth billions, etc.
The whole valley is an overpriced scam bubble flooded with money from the top 2% while the rest have seen falling wages and not just this women. She is a symptom of an out of balance equation
http://saveie6.com/
come on, vodoo is stronger, more versatile and open source
It's in the other thread about Silicon Valley and Diversity issues.
Makes me think of the magic / more magic switch story. http://www.catb.org/jargon/htm... in case you have never read it, worth the time imho.
Wicca was invented in the west.
Using "western" as a pejorative is a near certain indicator that you're dealing with woo.
...where it might have helped.
Two come to mind at least from late 1980s when I was working as PC support for a University. Both cases are ones of "That is just not possible, but it is happening.."
Case one: Screen going crazy, but not when I was in the same room.
Got a call that one of the screens was flickering like crazy so I went to look.
To visualize the place: the room was fairly long and narrow, with a small vestibule in front and thus double doors with about 1 meter in between. The inner door had a big glass window, booth doors were wood doors and such.
As I went to the room, the user said that the flickering just stopped, so I tried to look around a bit like checking that all cables were correct and such.. but basically shrugged and said that there was not much I could do and to call me when it happened again.
As I stepped out of the room and closed the inner door the use yelled after me that it started again, so I turned around and stepped back in... and he said "it stopped".. hmm..
Trying a few times(5-6?) just on a whim I stepped back and forth in the doorway and when the inner door was closed with me not in the room he said it flickered, but with the inner door closed and me in the room it did not flicker..
And by looking at the computer screen from the vestibule with the door closed I could actually see the flicker so it was not just the users imagination.
*sigh* So I puttered around a bit more and could not find anything. But as I the end I did not find anything and said that I could not do anything else..
A bit later I got a call that it had not flickered after I left that time.. So what caused it, probably some sort of interference from somewhere totally different and it just happened to match so perfectly those 5-6 times.. but the odds against such are pretty low, so..
Case two: The missing big Z.
Got a call one day to come and check out why they could not get a big Z to print.
I went to the location and true enough, there was a document written in word(the ms dos one) with a Z at some place in a math formula and the corresponding printed document that just had a blank at that location.
I went though the normal basic troubleshooting steps:
-Replace the Z with a Y in the same location in the formula->worked fine. Replace back to Z->nope.
Make a new document with many Zs->none of them came out
-Try a small z->worked fine.
-Do the same from Edit instead of MS word->worked fine!
Ah! I though something with word
-So I reinstalled word->same problem
hmm.. Ok, so lets isolate the problem.
-Move the printer to another computer->Same problem.
-Check another printer of the same type in the original place->everything works.
Hmm.. so the printer cannot print big Z from word but can from edit?
So I started playing around and suddenly the printer could print big Z after some trying around.
When thinking about it I noticed that I had actually switched the centronics cables between the printers.
hmm..
-Switching back to original: nope no big Z.
-Switching to other cable: works.
Ok.. so how can that cable not print big Z.. so I tried it in in the other computer that had the same type printer and it worked.
Tried switching back and forth a few times and indeed: that combination of cable and printed did not print out big Z, switching the cable between that printer and the other printer of same type and both worked fine..
Careful, I read of someone in Californica who was convicted of being a false Feng Shui consultant.
I thought Slashdot was a nerd hangout...
Geeze....
File under 'M' for 'Manic ranting'
There is no cure for absolute fucking stupidity.
Yes, but are there any wiccan spells that can do the trick?
That moment when you quickly check the date on your computer to make sure it's not April 1st...
All those moments will be lost in time, like tears in rain... time... to... die...
Witch Says Techies Hire Her To Protect Computers From Viruses and Offices From Spirits
Subheadline: Business Insider believes her for some reason
FTFY.
systemd is Roko's Basilisk.
But when there's an unexpected bug in your 'Hello Spirit World' code you can rapidly find yourself needing more specialist help than most help desks can provide.
-- Bob
I frequently deal with systems that have been compromised by the actions of unknown actors that appear to weave demonic circuits of logical fallibility throughout their interactions with the machines. If not spirits then I can only conclude that I myself have manifested these errors through the actions of others - but I am not so self-absorbed as to believe that possible. Spirits are the only logical conclusion.
Getting a witch is affective as any security program ever written my Mcafee.
The article didn't describe what type of spirits, so I'm assuming the type that most sysadmins are familiar with... and I am pretty sure that dropping a high ABV drink down a computer's vent or on top of a printer will do bad things to it.
My recommendation to protect computer stuff from spirits: Put a tray outside the server room and stick up a "no open alcoholic containers" sign on the door. This way, if someone needs to tipple at work, they can still leave their bottle of vodka in the incoming cold air duct, but at least don't spill it on any items inside.
You can build a proper perimeter defense, properly secure workstations, educate end users on avoiding malware, etc. Probably cost alot less than 200 bucks an hour and would be much more effective.
(I actually used to have a "sacred rubber voodoo chicken" that I'd bring with me when someone was having a problem that had a quick solution that I knew about before I arrived on-site. Wait until they look away, click the button that fixes the problem, and then when they turn back, shake the rubber chicken at the computer. "That should do it, let me know if the spirits get disobedient again.")
Hacker Public Radio is our Friend
Nope. People who believe violence will keep them safe will arm themselves, directly or indirectly. Intelligence doesn't enter into it, one way or another, any more than it does with any other basic instinct.
There's a running joke that the most vocal gay bashers are closet gays themselves. It's the same principle at work here. Internal contradictions tend to make people search for scapegoats.
Forget magic. Any technology distinguishable from divine power is insufficiently advanced.
I hire computer programmers to ward off curses.
Hide your bottles guys, the old witch is coming.
An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure.
sed -e 's/Chuck Norris/Rajnikant/g' joke > fact
there were no apples in Scandinavia
and Finnish is impossible language. Holy hungry ghosts that need to be fed with virgins and soldiers at the Danish moors! I'm starting to feel like an Australian, with their opposite flowing toilets.
the.
I think you are ignoring reality in order to press whatever ideology you want to be true.
With the exception of the democrat in California who was running guns and creating his own little market niche by championing and passing gun control laws, almost all prominent gun control advocates do in fact have armed security around them the majority of time they are in public. They do no arm themselves unless you consider hiring armed thugs or having armed police provided by the state to be arming yourself.
BTW, intelligence does enter into it. How else do you compensate for or explain the "I won't arm myself but pay others to arm themselves for me while actively trying to stop others from protecting their families" mentality and pretending it somehow makes them better than everyone else.
Maybe start by telling us which jobs women and minorities SHOULD NOT be employed in?
That would be (and includes non-minorities and men) any position that was filled due to racial requirements, diversity requirements, bigoted hiring managers, or affirmative action (IE, more racism).
Racism by definition is the belief that people are different because of the color of their skin.
Bigotry is when you do something about it.
Women and various flavors of handicapped don't tend to make the best general purpose infantry. Most countries that have tried it end the practice as soon as possible. There are also drawbacks of their employment in some related fields.
much of left-wing thought is a kind of playing with fire by people who don't even know that fire is hot - George Orwell
In 2000, the dot-com I worked for moved into new office space that had house three other companies that had failed in rapid succession, and our bosses brought in a feng shui consultant to cleanse it from the bad energy. It didn't work; we all go laid off less than eighteen months later.
And for only 50 bucks I'll exorcize Windows from your computer.
Open Source Network Inventory for the masses! Kuwaiba
In my experience, stupidity and armament are usually somehow correlated. The stupider someone is, the more he needs to compensate.
There are indeed various flavours of correlation, many of which I doubt you intend to reference:
Stupid thugs intent on rape, robbery, and mayhem that run into armed octogenarians.
Antigun nuts.
Nutters that think that guns are magic and are capable of turning honest, decent ordinary citizens into thugs, murderers, and thieves.
Do you think it is stupid to protect yourself with a gun from the powerful and violent, or packs of predators?
much of left-wing thought is a kind of playing with fire by people who don't even know that fire is hot - George Orwell
But does your spiritual protection go up to 11?
I downvoted this story but it still got through. The title overgeneralizes and there's no evidence in the summary that anyone, techie or not, actually uses the service and if anyone does, it's not likely to be a technically literate person.
As "entertainment"... I have no problem with this... highly amusing. I think if I heard she was coming I'd borrow some human skulls from some doctor friends of mine and just go all out so she walked into what looked like a legit necromantic/satanic ritual. I'd greet her with a goat skull on my head and scream "KALIII MAAAH!!!"
You have to have fun with these things.
Man... so much fun... I'd have to go full blow Halloween mode on that shit... get myself an "apocalypse cloak"... draw a giant pentagram between five servers... possibly put a dead squirrel in the middle of it all.
Yes.
This is how you make people stop being goofy in your presence. You act even goofier so you weird them out and they go "hey man... not cool"... and then they have to be the normal ones. :D
I've decided to stop wasting my time responding to AC trolls/sockpuppets... so if you want a response from me... login.
http://slashdot.org/story/01/04/27/1715203/microsoft-tech-suport-vs-psychic-friends
You seem to have it ALMOST right. Let me try saying the same thing, my way.
Those women and minorities who got their jobs BECAUSE they helped to meet a quota don't belong in those jobs.
However - I don't think that there is any profession which is unsuitable for women or minorities. And, sometimes, the woman, or the minority really is the best qualified.
If you're not careful with how you state the obvious, then you risk sounding like yet another asshole bigot. I cannot, will not ban women from an occupation because they are women. But, I can and will go along with any ban of women and/or minorities who FAIL TO MEET QUALIFICATIONS. Nor can I consider lowering standards just to make the unqualified happy.
Real life is not a special Olympics event. If/when I need an EMT, a doctor, a cop, an architect, I want the BEST, not some wannabe who was given the job to make liberals feel good about themselves.
"Windows is like the faint smell of piss in a subway: it's there, and there's nothing you can do about it." - Charlie Br
I mostly agree with you there. But, there ARE some women who meet qualifications. The US Marine Corps has not yet had a woman who passed the physical for combat officers - but a handful have come pretty damned close. That handful are almost certainly better soldiers than I could be. In all my life, I've not had the upper body strength and stamina to pass that course.
You know, and I know, that it is a rare women who has greater upper body strength and stamina than a healthy man - but why should we hold those rare women back? Let them do whatever they are good at.
"Windows is like the faint smell of piss in a subway: it's there, and there's nothing you can do about it." - Charlie Br
How is that different from beinga real a false Feng Shui consultant!
There is no cure for absolute fucking stupidity.
True, but it's nice that Ellen Pao found new work so quickly.
It must have been something you assimilated. . . .
...because we're too lazy to find the real problem. "Techies" are supposed to understand the technology. If they don't understand it, they work to understand it. That's what makes them techies. Software is logic in its purest form, short of actual math-on-paper, meaning all bugs have their source here in the real world, and can be solved with real solutions and enough work. Imagine the frustration a developer might have if spirits were real and actually interested in causing these sorts of problems. If things were truly like that, we'd fail at everything technological, because you never know when something might break for no particular reason other than spirits. We'd still be in the stone age.
Nope. People who believe violence will keep them safe will arm themselves, directly or indirectly. Intelligence doesn't enter into it, one way or another, any more than it does with any other basic instinct.
With the exception of the democrat in California who was running guns and creating his own little market niche by championing and passing gun control laws, almost all prominent gun control advocates do in fact have armed security around them the majority of time they are in public. They do no arm themselves unless you consider hiring armed thugs or having armed police provided by the state to be arming yourself.
Sorry, you just failed your reading comprehension test. You are invited to write a new reply which makes sense.
You're also just fucking wrong. Dianne Feinstein has a CCW, and a purse pistol to go with it.
"You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
Nawh. Just go to a skateboarding park sometime. The world is full of things that will kill/maim you if you're incompetent. I have known two people who reached under the shell of a running lawnmower to lift it over a curb. One would thing that one would be obvious, eh?
There is no cure for absolute fucking stupidity.
If you are referring to every religion that ever existed, then I'd the most I could accuse you of is being a bit insensitive. If you're singling out Wicca, then you are applying a blatant double standard and I would call that "absolutely fucking stupid". So, tell me. Are you religious at all?
It's nonsense like this that is the direct result of lowering hiring standards in order to get a requisite quota of women and minorities employed where they should not be.
Jeezus, dude. Bigot much?
Is your google finger broken? No Dianne Feinstein does not have a CCW. She may still have the pistol but has publicly claimed she got rid of it too. She wasn't a big gun control champion when she had her CCW either. The only reason we know about it is that she admitted having previously had one when trying to institute an assault weapons ban.
But hey, as long as you can say someone else is wrong- amiright? Oh, and you may have failed the reading comprehension, I certainly did not. Try reading the rest of my post. Perhaps it is above your level and you should ask you mom to come into the basement and help you understand it or something?
There is no cure for absolute fucking stupidity.
Yes there is. Education.
People aren't usually born ignorant. They pick up stupid ideas from people who don't question what they've "learned" or overheard. Racist kids learn to be racist, either from parents or friends or both. Religious people learn their fictions about an all-powerful being who happens to love them unconditionally and have created them in his image because people *tell* them those fictions. People believe chronic lyme disease should be treated by massive and long-term IV antibiotics because they hear it from a doctor or friend who hasn't seen that the risks, on average, outweigh the gains. (I suppose it might work if you *knew* you were dealing with some of the more highly skilled medical professionals in the world, but enough goes wrong with most medical professionals that studies have shown it's not worth it.) Anti-vaxxers are afraid of needles because somebody who felt sick after a vaccine told them "I felt sick after a vaccine!" and they've learned about data, but not about anecdotal data. People learn their country is better than other countries because somebody tells them.
Learning is the cure for ignorance. Not learning the stupid, and learning the smart.
That depends on the kind of predator and their intentions. If their intentions is killing me, then there is little alternative to arming yourself. If their intention is my belongings, I'd probably just help them carry them out.
I'm insured.
We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
Unfortunately your only point to make a choice tends to be before that happens. There have been plenty of robberies that ended with the killing of the victim, sometimes en mass. You won't get a chance to write a note to your past self and suggest being armed on that particular night.
much of left-wing thought is a kind of playing with fire by people who don't even know that fire is hot - George Orwell
(I work in public schools) once told a teacher that the network problems in her lab were because bad data was trapped in the cables and he went around and unplugged everything and left.
I honestly still don't know if he was fucking with her or serious and I had to put it back together again and fix the real issue after.
We won't reach an agreement here and I am tired discussing with you. Live your life and be happy. In the end, we'll probably find out who's right. And if not, so be it.
We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
Nope. Completely agnostic / atheist (I'm agnostic but if you really made me choose an answer, then I'm vastly tending towards the atheist).
But my characterisation of something this stupid as stupidity is not based on religious beliefs. Singing, praying, chanting, making funny noises, spraying the room with incense, thinking good thoughts, even swearing at it etc. WILL NOT FIX YOUR PRINTER. It's as simple as that.
There doesn't need to be a religious bias in this to understand that.
The fact that you think I'm doing this on a religious basis is quite amusing, in fact. It doesn't matter what religion you are, hoping your computer will get better isn't going to do that. At best, pray to find someone who knows how to fix it. But expecting an broken inanimate object to suddenly start functioning again without doing something as simple as pressing keys on it, or booting some disc, or even wiggling some cable, is just bollocks of the highest order.
No matter what you believe created the universe.
I've always thought it was odd that physical fitness requirements, in the US Army at least, are based solely on gender and age, and not on job/duties. Certainly everyone should be expected to reach a minimum level, but on the whole I'd expect someone in Infantry to be at a higher level of physical ability than a supply clerk, or a dental hygenist, or the IT guy.
I say if a woman is physically capable of meeting the requirements to do the job, more power to her. I'd rather have her on my team than some male that can barely meet the army-wide minimum.
Yeah, those guys that took up arms to build this nation in the first place, and did their best to include protections allowing us to retain the power to do so as needed, those guys were complete morons.
Yeah. They formed well-regulated militias. Instead of, say, running around like a bunch or Rambos.
Yes, all true with differing caveats. There are some kinds of stupid that can't be cured or are harder to cure because of the receptivity of the patient. Sometimes other avenues work (changes in social attitudes coming from their friends or co-workers) and create a useful feedback loop to correct some of the stupid. And sometimes, absolutely, kids are raised with habits that are intended to keep them ignorant or deluded. (See, e.g., going to religious service once a week).
You can't fix some versions of stupid, but sometimes you can make it better or less bad, either for that person, or in preventing the next guy from being the same kind of stupid.
There is no cure for absolute fucking stupidity.
Yes, but are there any wiccan spells that can do the trick?
This is worse than useless. Computers, copiers, traffic lights, all electrical, electronic, and mechanical devices all operate because they are possessed by evil spirits bent on the frustration and injury of human beings.
Whether you employ wiccans, African witch doctors, Catholic priests or Indian medicine men, exorcising the evil that lives inside these devices will make them non-functional.
Then you'll have to call in a repairman to install a new evil spirit.
How about nutters that think guns solve every problem? There's a staggering amount of magical thinking in the gun nut groups.
How about people that think owning a gun somehow makes them safe? While statistics shows the opposite?
Or those that thinks an armed society is a safe society? While every society that can be considered armed invariably descends into violent shitholes...
Gun nuts aren't usually just nuts about guns, they are nuts on most levels. Gun nerds on the other hand can be reasonable.
LOL!
Women in infantry tend to be very good soldiers, well motivated with only physical strength as a limitation.
How about you stop commenting on stuff you don't know shit about? That would be most things I gather.
She may still have the pistol but has publicly claimed she got rid of it too.
Her whole career is built around lying and you believe her? You certainly are a dumbass.
"You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
prominent gun control advocates probably need bodyguards because there are gun nuts who want to kill them for daring to suggest that private citizens don't need and/or shouldn't have certain kinds of weapons, or that purchase should be subject to stringent background checks.
apparently, to a gun nut, their right to bear arms is greater than the right to free speech or the right to live and this somehow entitles them to murder people they disagree with.
I mostly agree with you there. But, there ARE some women who meet qualifications. The US Marine Corps has not yet had a woman who passed the physical for combat officers - but a handful have come pretty damned close. That handful are almost certainly better soldiers than I could be. In all my life, I've not had the upper body strength and stamina to pass that course.
You know, and I know, that it is a rare women who has greater upper body strength and stamina than a healthy man - but why should we hold those rare women back? Let them do whatever they are good at.
As you've noted - most men won't qualify for the U.S. Marines. But that's a false standard and it presupposes that because someone can, they would wish to (I note that qualifying as a Marine doesn't mean you automagically qualify as a Ranger, no disrespect to Marines).
There are SpecOp units with women. Russia's 5th Spetsnaz, France's 11th Parachute Brigade, 13th Parachute Dragoon Reg., Israel's Sayeret Matkal. SpecOp Reconn units like Britains SRR, South Koreas 707th, and that's a far from complete list of units with much higher physical and psychological selection criteria than general infantry (and my military experience is 15 years out of date, more elite units have allowed women since then).
There are also women who have passed the physicals for SpecOp groups that don't admit, officially at least, women e.g. COM1. Same physical selection criteria as SAS (they trained them originally), you want a small group that can pose as sheep herders for a short term and perform surgical strikes - send the SAS. When you want a hammer you send COM1 (don't let the apparent part-time nature fool you - qualifying for the SAS doesn't qualify you for COM1, the reverse is possible). You want a group that can operate individually for long periods under authentic deep cover - you select from COM1 - and yet most Marines would not pass the physical (by design, like Ranger selection). The US probably has their own small and quiet equivalent (or has had).
Ranger physical selection tests is as hard as that for Australian COM1, COM2, SAS, and the British SAS. So far 3 women have made it to the climb stage of the US Ranger selection. A tiny percentage of general US infantry would make it that far, and very few Marines.
While less women may achieve a standard set to exclude most male physiques - dead is dead, and even child combatants of either gender can do that. I'm told that the Russians would have lost to the Germans if not for women (see WWII pictures of those large, heavy, hirsute, tattooed, pipe smoking tank crews), so perhaps coldfjords, um, somewhat biased views, only appear true for the general average of the USA.
Obligatory Dilbert
http://dilbert.com/search_results?terms=Out+Out+Demons+Of+Stupidity
That's simply recognition, not a cure. The only cure for stupidity is to take the warning labels off everything.
It's in the other thread about Silicon Valley and Diversity issues.
Oooh - quick, look somewhere else. The points you make about absolute fucking stupidity are not the points you think they are.
LOL! Women in infantry tend to be very good soldiers, well motivated with only physical strength as a limitation. How about you stop commenting on stuff you don't know shit about? That would be most things I gather.
Butt, butt - I'm a doctor. I know everything. Okay, so I do not actually have a doctorate, just Bachelor degree and a Diploma of Medicine which I abbreviate backwards so I can con people into thinking I have a doctorate. Butt I am a authoritah!
I downvoted this story but it still got through. The title overgeneralizes and there's no evidence in the summary that anyone, techie or not, actually uses the service and if anyone does, it's not likely to be a technically literate person.
I upvoted it because it was funny - and there was fuck all else on the agenda unless you count pathetic single-line attempts at binspam.
Of course now I don't feel so good about it.
The US probably has their own small and quiet equivalent (or has had).
The US has a whole slew of these spec ops groups. Here is an (very) incomplete list in order of selection (easy to hard):
"Those that start by burning books, will end by burning men."
LOL! Women in infantry tend to be very good soldiers, well motivated with only physical strength as a limitation. How about you stop commenting on stuff you don't know shit about? That would be most things I gather.
While women tend to do better on marksmanship, I'm not sure that alone makes them very good soldiers. Soldiers are war fighters and that includes a lot of heavy lifting. Are there women who make good soliders, sure. Do I think its a 50-50 split in the population, no...and I doubt a good female soldier would think that's true either. I bet they would know that they are far better than the average female at war fighting that that's probably something that they take a great deal of pride in.
"Those that start by burning books, will end by burning men."
You have, however, just equated rich with smart. Those two are not necessarily correlated - ask anybody who's been born into money just how hard they worked to get rich, and they'll tell you that they worked very, very hard.
Prevention is better than cure. Stop hiring hipsters.
No women have come close to passing the Marine Infantry Officer Course. A minor percentage of women have passed the Marine enlisted basic infantry course. Unfortunately that course is indeed only the basic level, and further skills and training are needed at the unit. Infantry combat units need to be able to fight a Fallujah, Hue, or Stalingrad for day after day, month after month. The 30 day experiments or 60 day schools used to justify this aren't necessarily going to reveal the point where the serious failures occur.
Why do you think an entire institution should be changed for a rare exception? You do realize there are many implications from that, don't you? Dimensions and weight of equipment and weapons, uniforms, allocations of supply, and much more.
And don't forget this - what is merely allowed in peacetime may become mandatory in a major war. Women haven't been included in the draft, but put them in the infantry now, and they may end up being disadvantaged cannon fodder in a future war without a choice. yay! equality! (When will men start having babies to rebuild a ravaged population?)
Perhaps you may want to ponder the words of these two female Marines.
Get Over It! We Are Not All Created Equal, by By Capt Katie Petronio
Why Women Do Not Belong in the U.S. Infantry - Marine infantry isn’t broken, it doesn’t need to be “fixed”, by Capt Lauren F. Serrano
much of left-wing thought is a kind of playing with fire by people who don't even know that fire is hot - George Orwell
safe in the knowledge that all those high-tech bay area firms we all depend on are run by super-rational and intellectual people who would never fall for silly religious beliefs like Judaism or Christianity[end sarcasm]
Funny thing: the vast majority of the people who brought mankind from the bronze age to the computer age (and specifically even who worked on the Apollo moon program) were Christians or Jews (who many young geeks have been programmed to see as primitive backward idiots who want to take the country back to the 1950's). All the "new age" neo-pagan crap, on the other hand (which is apparently so acceptable to young geeks), is throw-back stuff from the year zero - further back than even the crazy Muslim extremists who only want to go back to the year 700. Even all the modern gay rights stuff, commonly presented to the young-and-dumb as some new step forward for mankind is just a retrograde step back to pre-Christian times when some societies did indeed openly accept homosexuality; it's a roll-back of a "reform". Beware: the year zero was not such a lovely time for the human race.
Remind me again please: what amazing accomplishments have the Wiccans/witches/pagans provided mankind?
There are SpecOp units with women. Russia's 5th Spetsnaz, France's 11th Parachute Brigade, 13th Parachute Dragoon Reg., Israel's Sayeret Matkal. SpecOp Reconn units like Britains SRR, South Koreas 707th, and that's a far from complete list of units with much higher physical and psychological selection criteria than general infantry (and my military experience is 15 years out of date, more elite units have allowed women since then).
I think if you examine the presence of women in most special forces type units what you will generally find is that they didn't go through the same selection and training process as the primary members of the force. What often happens is that they are either in an attached element with different standards for entry, or in a headquarters or some other element. Many women have proven to be highly capable and resilient in those roles, but that isn't quite the same thing as having passed the same selection and training process as the men there. I'm glad they are there though as long as they are employed wisely.
I'm told that the Russians would have lost to the Germans if not for women (see WWII pictures of those large, heavy, hirsute, tattooed, pipe smoking tank crews), so perhaps coldfjords, um, somewhat biased views, only appear true for the general average of the USA.
Women did well as snipers, pilots, anti-aircraft, and many other duties for the Soviets. They were used as infantry at times, and they were removed from that role as soon as the Soviets could manage as I recall. The Soviet war effort, not to mention the US and UK war effort, would have been greatly weakened without the participation of women. That still doesn't mean that general purpose infantry is a good place to use them, and there are very few women that really have an interest in it.
much of left-wing thought is a kind of playing with fire by people who don't even know that fire is hot - George Orwell
Women in infantry tend to be very good soldiers, well motivated with only physical strength as a limitation.
What a pity that the infantry tends to rely on physical strength. Looks like reality has brutalized another fine theory.
How about you stop commenting on stuff you don't know shit about? That would be most things I gather.
Can I get the same deal from you? You already owe me one.
much of left-wing thought is a kind of playing with fire by people who don't even know that fire is hot - George Orwell
There is no cure for absolute fucking stupidity.
Which is precisely what you get in San Francisco.
I think it is safe to say that this article shows us that there are actually women involved in tech... They just happen to be witches. We can safely ignore the article and ensuing thread below this one. The diversity issue has been solved.
Yes, yes I do whistle while I work.
"So long and thanks for all the fish."
Every Marine is, first and foremost, a rifleman. This includes cooks, accountants, postal workers, clerks, officers, and women. All Marines are green and have been since just about the end of WWII as was handed down by the Commandant. Lady Marines are all riflemen as well as all male Marines. This is why the physical requirements must be met in the Marine Corps. The Marines are a tiny force and every last one of them is expected to defend themselves and the Marine beside them, to protect the regulations of an embassy, to guard Naval vessels, or to guard Naval (Marines are actually a Department of the Navy) detention centers. You can likely imagine how I know this.
"So long and thanks for all the fish."
That puff of smoke that you see when you fry a power supply? That is the evil spirit escaping. Really, UEFI is just an extra layer of glyphs to try to prevent their escape. Beware, though, for they are crafty beings and have many means of trickery.
"So long and thanks for all the fish."
I use open source spirits myself. They are buggy as all hell but at least they are free.
"So long and thanks for all the fish."
Shorter version: You're white, and black people have a right to rob, rape, and kill you for past aggressions of slavery. You're task is to take it up the ass and penance for the sins of your father.
How else do you explain the thug insanity of inner-city black kids running around like a troop of wild monkeys all while the politicians protect them from being policed appropriately?
Tell you what, just wait till the Latino group (the next largest voting block) get sick and tired of it. And thank God that black women are now starting to conceal carry as well. They have a right to protect themselves!
Life is not for the lazy.
You obviously have a source of knowledge. PI or SD?
much of left-wing thought is a kind of playing with fire by people who don't even know that fire is hot - George Orwell
You might read this lady's story - http://www.washingtonpost.com/...
That woman has come much closer to passing the test than either you or me. She should know what she is talking about, right?
The rest of the women are unlikely to be shrinking violets - look for their stories too.
Agree or disagree with them, you have to admit that allowing males to take the test a second time, but not permitting females a retry was odd. Why was that? The policy wasn't changed until the policy was exposed to the public light.
"Windows is like the faint smell of piss in a subway: it's there, and there's nothing you can do about it." - Charlie Br
There are SpecOp units with women. Russia's 5th Spetsnaz, France's 11th Parachute Brigade, 13th Parachute Dragoon Reg., Israel's Sayeret Matkal. SpecOp Reconn units like Britains SRR, South Koreas 707th, and that's a far from complete list of units with much higher physical and psychological selection criteria than general infantry (and my military experience is 15 years out of date, more elite units have allowed women since then). what you will generally find is that they didn't go through the same selection and training process as the primary members of the force.
I think if you examine the presence of women in most special forces type units.
I suspect that if you bother to research the regiments I mentioned, rather than over-invest the "most" strawman, you may be surprised.
I'd suggest you don't trot that belief out in front of a female SRR unless you'd like to experience a condensed version of P Company selection testing. Or not - it could prove an education.
You sound like an armchair general. There's a difference between direct experience and sophist "knowledge". No amount of reading or watching videos will bridge that gap. I trained and competed with some of those regiments - as have many regiments from the USA. Mutual respect is more common than not.
Lest you get distracted from your original claim - my point is that if women can meet the standards of elite forces, they can meet the standards of general infantry.
They can, and they do.
Women did well as snipers, pilots, anti-aircraft, and many other duties for the Soviets. They were used as infantry at times, and they were removed from that role as soon as the Soviets could manage as I recall.
Your recollections are correct - though it leaves out tank crews (a brutally hard job). There were some instances of women serving on the front lines - and many instances of them being executed for it. Notable exceptions would be (WW1) the Perm Battalion and the 1st Russian Women's Battalion of Death. The actual reasons they were deployed in both WWs in active roles was because necessity overcame the military culture of men only (despite political ideals). I suspect they'd have been deployed in the infantry more often if not for the ready supply of zeks.
Despite military cultural bias (I blame the nepotism that's standard amongst the REMF in the military everywhere) the Russian command recognised that women were superior snipers. But the Russian experience is unique so I don't know if that applies to all women.
The reason they were removed from active service after both WWs was partially due to the changes in military command, and mostly due practical reasons - a need to repopulate.
The Soviet war effort, not to mention the US and UK war effort, would have been greatly weakened without the participation of women.
Agreed.
That still doesn't mean that general purpose infantry is a good place to use them.
On that point we disagree. From my point of view - if I was 40 years younger and re-enlisted I'd prefer to serve along side soldiers selected on the basis of meeting practical standards not cultural biases.
and there are very few women that really have an interest in it.
A weak argument. I'm opposed to the draft - for either gender. And that's been a defining difference between the USA and Australia (, England, and New Zealand) for a long time. Possibly because we have a smaller pool of candidates and less resources to supply them.
I don't believe in equality - it's a myth. Equal opportunity is different. In no way am I suggesting that equal number of women, can, or should be in active duty - only that the criteria should be meeting the operational standards.
If women meet the same standards required for active service - good for them, good for those they serve, and good for those they serve with.
... but if you do it without Stupid's permission, Stupid may get angry.
linquendum tondere
"As you've noted - most men won't qualify for the U.S. Marines. But that's a false standard and it presupposes that because someone can, they would wish to (I note that qualifying as a Marine doesn't mean you automagically qualify as a Ranger, no disrespect to Marines)."
I think you have it backward. Just because you qualify as a Ranger, doesn't mean you can qualify with the Marines.
There are many anecdotal stories of an army company or battalion calling for relief, and waiting for a division to come in. A squad of marines shows up, announcing, "We are your relief, Sir!"
"Windows is like the faint smell of piss in a subway: it's there, and there's nothing you can do about it." - Charlie Br
The US probably has their own small and quiet equivalent (or has had).
The US has a whole slew of these spec ops groups.
Context. I wasn't rating regiments - as a general rule they all tend to be the best at what they do. Just referring to those that include women. SpecOps everywhere tend to include temporary units with compositions and tasks outside of the norm.
Small correction. COM1 aren't sole operators. Strictly speaking.
The Island of course. Pogey Bait goes to SD. I was dumb enough to do it twice - I left in the middle to attend college and then decided I wanted more of that GI Bill loving so I returned for another four years. The first stint was 0311 the majority of my time then an MOS change to do embassy duty. 3505 the second (motor pool) and then another MOS change as a security guard, I was a chaser, (forgot the number) at a detention facility. This was quite some time ago but they were good times.
As an aside, I had the opportunity to engage in combat and I can tell folks, with some certainty, that none of us cared about who slept with who, what the gender was, or who believed in what. We did not fire our weapons because of mothers and apple pie. We cared only about the person beside us and that was who we fought for. What mattered is we knew we could trust the person beside us because they had gone through the same training and were there fighting beside us. Combat is not anything like the movies. It is noisy, scary, smelly, and disturbing.
"So long and thanks for all the fish."
"the Russian command recognised that women were superior snipers. But the Russian experience is unique so I don't know if that applies to all women."
Obviously, I've not researched it - but a lifetime of observation tells me that it is a general truth in all of Earth's cultures. Women are more likely to be "natural" shooters than men. Males have to "learn" to shoot, but they forget that because they are generally taught at very young ages. Females, who traditionally are discouraged from playing with guns, very often just pick up a gun and hit the target.
What's more, I think that most men know this subconsciously, which is why Youtube has so damned many moronic videos of men being cruel to women. Get the girl to come out to the range, hand her an overpowered weapon with a wildcat load in it, and get her to fire it. THEN act like it's funny that she has a permanent scar on her forehead. Idiocy . . . .
"Windows is like the faint smell of piss in a subway: it's there, and there's nothing you can do about it." - Charlie Br
Its quite a common practice in india to keep pictures of gods as desktop wall papers and do home based spirit chasing on occassions. we even have a festival for gadgets and machines(ayudha pooja), when people put sandal paste and vermillion on computers, mobiles and gadgets, show champhor fire to ward away evil spirits and pray for good coding and business with those gadgets. this is done by the geekiest of geeks and the whole software industry even in software development centres in our silicon valley bangalore.
"As you've noted - most men won't qualify for the U.S. Marines. But that's a false standard and it presupposes that because someone can, they would wish to (I note that qualifying as a Marine doesn't mean you automagically qualify as a Ranger, no disrespect to Marines)."
I think you have it backward.
It's your view, and you're welcome to it. If that's regimental pride I salute it. If, as is more likely, it's a groupie thing, or an undisciplined desire to give an opinion, you're just an idiot that argues without good reason. In the latter case try chewing gum if you need jaw exercise.
Just because you qualify as a Ranger, doesn't mean you can qualify with the Marines.
I never said it did, or that the analogy wasn't reversible. They have different purposes - only idiots that qualified for neither debate about which is better. Both Rangers and Marines (which encompasses a range of special units) do have demonstrated the capability to meet general infantry standards (does context elude you, or did your lips get sore?). Both points are what you failed to grasp. Probably because you have a habit of not bothering to pay attention.
Nit picking is nothing to be proud of when razors and medicated treatments are available.
There are many anecdotal stories of an army company or battalion calling for relief, and waiting for a division to come in. A squad of marines shows up, announcing, "We are your relief, Sir!"
True. Heart swelling even. But not relevant.
http://www.gnu.org/fun/jokes/vaxorcist.html
I've seen it before. It doesn't really change things. She wants to argue that if we give lots and lots of runway to women they can do as well as marginal men in strength. Don't you find this suggestive?
But there came a point when I could not persuade my body to perform. It wasn’t a matter of will but of pure physical strength. My mind wanted more, but my muscles quivered in failure after multiple attempts. I began to shiver as I got cold. I was told I could not continue
If she ends up with her wish, that men and women are judged by the exact same standards it will end up even worse for women than it is now. Take the "gender norming" out of the fitness tests and women's scores will plummet.
So she knows what she is talking about, and the other more experienced women that say this is an unnecessary bad idea don't? Or are their views not worth considering?
Bravery is no substitute for bravery and strength.
The whole exercise is a waste of time, there is no fundamental fact of human physiology that has changed since the last go around with this nonsense. This is purely an ideologically driven exercise to achieve wins in diversity while at the same time they throw away hard won victories on the battlefield through negligence and incompetence. I think we might have found an explanation for this policy.
much of left-wing thought is a kind of playing with fire by people who don't even know that fire is hot - George Orwell
Free spirits are dangerous! They are unbound and unfettered and should not be dealt with by the uninitiated!
You may already have heard (and if not, allow me to clue you in) that it usually takes a little more training to deal with open source spirits (OSS). They can be a bit more fickle and there are not as many people about who have had professional training with them (simply because the commercial world is still a bit wary about them, at least in an environment where they would have to be dealt with by uninitiated personnel, they are much more common in back office areas where only trained handlers are employed).
But they have that unparalleled advantage that you can shape them to your needs. That of course takes a lot of training since clueless manipulation may lead to daemons that act as if they did what they should but instead you may end up with dangerously unstable zombies.
And of course I offer consultation in this areas as well. Rates are available at request.
We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
It's drinkypoo. He doesn't read, he reacts.
There is no cure for absolute fucking stupidity.
Agreed. Why are you hiring a witch when you've already got a bunch of Wizards here?
I am sure there are many capable women out there that could make good soldiers. but there is one reason we don't want them to be.
we need to be honest, men are just more expendable. no one cares if they die. sure, we want them to come back alive, however if they die there really isn't that big of a loss.
on the other hand if all the women die there would be no one left to repopulate the country. women are more valuable.because they can have babies.
i know what i said isn't going to be popular among some groups, but it is true.
Lol.. a scenario that exists largely only in your head and you paint every person who thinks the constitution matters with your brush of ignorance.
Some people will never stop amazing me.
If they come up with a charm that can be put on a phone line that will give telemarketers warts the world will a path to their doorstep.
just sayin......
I am selling rocks that keep away Church of Eris Prophets. Guaranteed to keep 99% of them away for all of eternity if stored inside it's container.
DO NOT OPEN the container, warranty void where prohibited.
Do not look at laser with remaining good eye.
I don't believe in equality - it's a myth. Equal opportunity is different. In no way am I suggesting that equal number of women, can, or should be in active duty - only that the criteria should be meeting the operational standards. If women meet the same standards required for active service - good for them, good for those they serve, and good for those they serve with.
While that is a laudable sentiment, and one that I can get behind, don't be surprised if you end up with approximately no women in your battalions.
We've seen the exact same thing happen in Sweden. Female fire fighters (well, not necessarily them per se, but other's speaking for them) complained about the macho culture that prevented women from being fire fighters. The had the numbers to support their arguments, there were very few females that were deemed to pass muster.
So, instead of the somewhat arbitrary previous hiring process, that did contain standards but also left room for judgement, quite a lot of work was put into defining what the actual requirements that had to be met to be a passable fire fighter were researched, tested and put into practice in the major fire departments in the larger cities.
The results were quite telling. At the smaller departments that kept the old process in the interim, the same abysmally small number of female applicants were hired, but in the cities, with their brand spanking new, objective, doesn't-leave-anything-to-subjective-judgement, not a single female fire fighter was hired after. Not one. *)
And if you look at the statistics that's not really that surprising. When you have strength, endurance, and psychological requirements that only a relatively small portion of the male population can pass, the number of females who could pass it in the general population becomes close to zero to begin with. And when you combine that with the small number of women who could see themselves in that line of work and even apply, it becomes a once-in-a-blue-moon even that the stars have aligned so that you will get a woman who both can pass the requirements, and would be interested and willing to do so.
*) A few years after two women actually managed to pass the physical requirements test by having been coached specifically. So out of 1000 fire fighters in my city there are now two women that are qualified for actual fire fighting (including "smoke diving"). The first time they tried coaching four women from neighbouring cities that already worked as fire fighters, but none of them passed... And just for reference, the physical requirements aren't completely over the top: Being able to run 3000 meters below 13:15, 30 kg bench press 35 times in under one minute, or lifting a 15 kg bar to the chin 40 times, etc. etc. These are requirements I myself would have had a shot at 25 years ago before I got old, slow, weak and fat, and I was no prime specimen of the male gender, far from it.
The physical differences between the sexes, at least in modern societies, are just that large. And if you say that "Women are OK, but you know, given the requirements there won't actually be any women," have you then actually opened up the position to women?
Stefan Axelsson
... Yeah. They formed well-regulated militias. Instead of, say, running around like a bunch or Rambos.
Um ... The word "Regulated" actually meant using the same type of equipment, ammunition and manuvers. The Militia needed to be able to own the same military equipment so that they could be supplied, in an emergency, with the equipment and ammunition stored by the governments. Having many civillian types and calibers was known to be a nightmare for logistics.
They also needed to be trained the same, in what orders meant and what movements they were to do. Otherwise they would not be able to fight on the same field with the other units.
It had nothing to do with laws or restrictions in the modern sense.
Ha ha.
The linked article was about Leland Yee, not Dianne Feinstein. And you have the temerity to question someone else's reading comprehension?
You're so frigging dumb, it's amazing that you are actually able to remember to breathe.
While bit wishing to opine on guns (I'm European and therefore don't understand the obsession but understand that no good will come of challenging it), take that idea of regulations and understanding of orders in the context of orders to troops and the necessity of obedience, and possibly even civilian calibres.
Doesn't the upshot of that line of reasoning concern you at all? It sounds a lot like a military society to me - that and the sort of thing buried in the Feudal age of serfs having obligation to keep war equipment handy for when their Lord decided to raise an army. It also sounds to run counter to popular ideas of personal freedoms.
Aa for civilian calibres, well. What you need there is gun control, and stipulated types available only. That doesn't seem to be a popular opinion though.
Truth is, without a universally observed amnesty, there are too many weapons in circulation in the US, so talking about limiting them now is too late unless you have the appetite for a long campaign probably spanning many Presidencies. I think you're pretty much stuck with them whether you want them anymore or not.
A very quick reply with out proof reading. Apologies if it reads like it was written in short burst - it was, I'm multitasking.
I don't believe in equality - it's a myth. Equal opportunity is different. In no way am I suggesting that equal number of women, can, or should be in active duty - only that the criteria should be meeting the operational standards. If women meet the same standards required for active service - good for them, good for those they serve, and good for those they serve with.
While that is a laudable sentiment, and one that I can get behind, don't be surprised if you end up with approximately no women in your battalions.
We'll have to wait and see if the current trend continues - I'm wary of extrapolating my experience (it's almost two decades and a half since I turned 40 and left service, and infantry is a completely different cultural mentality) to women everywhere. Average physique and cultural psychology vary. I previously mentioned particular elite units in which women serve in roles the same as men - it's not a comprehensive list. The women I have met and observed in those roles are just as dedicated to their service as the men - so that proposal was made in reference to wider deployment of women in shooting roles, especially in the USA where abortion is a very contentious subject and in some US states it's illegal. Pregnancy happens - so what happens if women do make the cut in elite US units, become pregnant and wish to seek an abortion - will the US military support them? General infantry roles are different as the training costs are much lower. How will the US military deal with the economics of the return on investment for those women currently close to completing the final stages of Ranger training? If they do decide that abortion services is something they provide will they provide the same services to US service women in other units? What will the political ramifications be?
As I previously noted we don't have a problem with using the same titles for soldiers of both genders - that's different in the US.
I'm not proposing compulsory abortion, just considering that a small number of women doing what a lot of men have done - joining up so that they can scam their way out of active service just to reap the benefits. Abortion on demand - and a policy what options are available if a soldier becomes pregnant.
I mentioned this is likely redundant in the case of elite units, having made the grade most soldiers of any gender tend to dedicate themselves (corp de esprit).
If abortion is a service the military won't provide then they have to decide what to do when a female soldier becomes pregnant. Note also that many of the units I mentioned are in countries where military service is compulsory (that's not the case in Australia).
If a male soldier knocks up a woman it has no effect on his service and it's unreasonable to automatically decide that if a female soldier becomes pregnant it's the equivalent of negligence. As it stands male soldiers do get special consideration when their partner has a child - but that's a much shorter break from service than women require if pregnant. Given the cost of training it'd be impractical not to require that a female soldier contract to not have a child during their contracted period of service. The US and Australia tend to bend the rules with smaller elite units i.e. it's technically illegal but one unit which I was familiar with was composed solely of soldiers who were either left-handed or ambidextrous and had a degree. It also had women in shooting roles. Women were told they were not allowed to have children during their contract period (none complained that I heard of. That degree of autonomy is not possible in larger units - so the military will have to create rules which require legislative support. In most countries abortion is not an issue - I seriously doubt the USA will allow the military to give serving women the right to seek abortions - it'd
=https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/I%C3%B0unn"
I've seen it before.
Watching videos and selective reading doesn't make your "opinion" any less invalid. If you haven't made the grade your opinion is irrelevant. It only makes you unworthy of benefitting from the actions of those that do.
It doesn't really change things. She wants to argue that if we give lots and lots of runway to women they can do as well as marginal men in strength. Don't you find this suggestive?
Suggestive. No. Fact no. The only fact in that paragraph is the fact that you can't or won't fucking read. Her argument is that the standards should be the same. That you pretend the words mean something other than what they say is "suggestive" - just not the way you'd wish them to be. Do strong women scare you? Do you prefer them all to be petite and submissive?
But there came a point when I could not persuade my body to perform. It wasn’t a matter of will but of pure physical strength. My mind wanted more, but my muscles quivered in failure after multiple attempts. I began to shiver as I got cold. I was told I could not continue
If she ends up with her wish, that men and women are judged by the exact same standards it will end up even worse for women than it is now.
And now you leap from bank to bank astride the horse of desperation. First you say women can't make it - then you say that those that do somehow make life worse for other women. Which is bullshit - unless you're arguing that your dick has shrunk because some of us men did make the cut - but you couldn't. You also build on bullshit, a sloppy foundation for an argument worth serious consideration - she never made the 'wish' you imply she did. She failed, so what, she should have had the same second chance as men. If she failed again - so what? People are supposed to fail selection - and most do.
Take the "gender norming" out of the fitness tests and women's scores will plummet.
Not only is that a red herring, it's utter bullshit. Are you hoping people won't read the article? There is no gender norming in those tests.
"Marine Sgt. Maj. Micheal P. Barrett, the senior enlisted adviser to the commandant, affirmed: “Our plan is deliberate, measured and responsible. We will not lower our standards.”
So she knows what she is talking about,
Yes she does, as does the jarhead who posted earlier. But not you
and the other more experienced women that say this is an unnecessary bad idea don't?
That doesn't even make sense. All she said was that when she attempted the test she was only allowed one try - and that men were allowed two. That is equal standards.
What other more experienced women? Capt Petronio - it's OK for me, but not for general infantry, cos it breaks the brotherhood, people leave the career damaged (no shit, it's hard,), and rape (and that's gender specific)? That's her opinion - typical of REMFs. Now you're so desperate to prove women can't make the cut you're basing your claims on, um, women who have made the cut.
And you're back to your unequal claim that those that do qualify somehow make life worse for those that don't - patently a gender biased view.
Or are their views not worth considering?
Another red herring - of course "their" views are not worth considering if they haven't qualified, the same as yours. Failure is not the qualification for determining the success of others. Those that don't make the cut should not have a say. In the case of Capt Petronio she is entitled to an opinion and she's given one, about infantry. Captains do that. Apropos of which, Sergeants don't write essays.
Bravery is no substitute for br
I'm not sure that firefighters as an analogy should be stretched too far (we have female firefighters in Australia - a higher percentage than you) - police work would be perhaps a better comparison. I suspect there's more of a "duty" call there - with all respect to firefighters.
You make a lot of interesting points, the intersection of contracted forces and pregnancy is an interesting one that I haven't put much thought into, but I'd thought I'd just limit myself to this one point.
The main difference between police and fire fighting I would say is that the former has physical requirements they're based on a situation that will never arise. I.e. police (like most soldiers to tell the truth) train and prepare for a situation that will never come. The overwhelming majority of police never draw their service weapon in the line of duty for example. And comforting crying children after a traffic accident, or filling in the umpteenth burglary report can of course be fulfilled with a minimum of physical prowess. (OK, most uniformed police in "outer" service do a bit of impromptu wrestling during their stint, so there's that. But we also know that this is where WPCs fair the worst. And in Sweden we've seen an up-tick in police brutality reports as we've had more WPCs. They have to go for the Mace/pepper spray instead of wrestling...)
With fire fighting it's different in that they actually train for what they'll do. Fire fighting does actually involve the hard physical work that the requirements are put there to ensure that they can perform. OK, they don't do a lot of dragging their downed comrades to safety, but there's plenty of other stuff (i.e. smoke diving) that actually is as tough as it looks.
So with that in mind, it's not at all surprising that we'll see more female police than fire fighters. The jobs are different in that with police you can get away with skirting requirements due to whatever pressure or other consideration as those requirements are there to ensure performance during an emergency. In fire fighting, those requirements are there to ensure you can manage to do your regular duties.
So, it depends on whether you're training to train, or training to fight...
P.S. In the Swedish army we were taught that the Israeli experience was that while women soldiers in combat postings did fine, the men around them didn't. The "cave man reflex" (not my terminology) made men expose themselves far to much when women were in danger, to the detriment of the mission. But perhaps that's the sort of macho behaviour that training and indoctrination can deal with, and I don't know how large this effect was in either case. It's just a point of interest.
Stefan Axelsson
I'm not sure that firefighters as an analogy should be stretched too far (we have female firefighters in Australia - a higher percentage than you) - police work would be perhaps a better comparison. I suspect there's more of a "duty" call there - with all respect to firefighters.
You make a lot of interesting points, the intersection of contracted forces and pregnancy is an interesting one that I haven't put much thought into, but I'd thought I'd just limit myself to this one point.
The main difference between police and fire fighting I would say is that the former has physical requirements they're based on a situation that will never arise. I.e. police (like most soldiers to tell the truth) train and prepare for a situation that will never come. The overwhelming majority of police never draw their service weapon in the line of duty for example. And comforting crying children after a traffic accident, or filling in the umpteenth burglary report can of course be fulfilled with a minimum of physical prowess. (OK, most uniformed police in "outer" service do a bit of impromptu wrestling during their stint, so there's that.
Agreed.
Firstly - the main reason I wanted to avoid the firefighter analogy because I've not met many firefighters (CFA doesn't count) so I don't know what shapes the desire to do that job (which doesn't have a lot of non-active roles), and I don't know a lot about it. But I've met a lot of soldiers and police. With the exception of countries where women are drafted the female soldiers who make a career of "active" roles "usually" entered the forces because their families had a history of service. i.e. it was a role they were born into and they often had family support. Likewise police.
Secondly - you make some good points I hadn't considered. I suspect there may be a problem with the physical standard requirements, though never-the-less female police do serve a very important place in the police forces. Not particularly relevant, but the most common response when asking what's the worst part of a cops job, is "telling the families someone is dead".
But we also know that this is where WPCs fair the worst. And in Sweden we've seen an up-tick in police brutality reports as we've had more WPCs. They have to go for the Mace/pepper spray instead of wrestling...)
Interesting - I haven't noticed that here, but we have some weird institution police cultures. i.e. preferential treatment for entrants who play professional male sports, deeply rooted corrupt culture in some states (over a hundred years of baton changing). We do get a fair bit of justifiable brutality complaints about cops, mostly male, but I don't know how that translates into gender ratios. There have been a couple of recent cases where women were involved - but they were definitely not the result of lack of weight (e.g. part of a group of police illegally invading, handcuffing and stomping on someone).
When I used to run a pub it was always male police that were sent out if there was a problem - we sponsored the local police football team so I got to know them better than I'd like. Strong culture of corruption and they sidelined anyone who didn't belong to their "boys club" - so any bloke who read books, wasn't corrupt, or women were given the shit work.
Physical standards for cops here are pretty low.
<snipped>
P.S. In the Swedish army we were taught that the Israeli experience was that while women soldiers in combat postings did fine, the men around them didn't. The "cave man reflex" (not my terminology) made men expose themselves far to much when women were in danger, to the detriment of the mission. But perhaps that's the sort of macho behaviour that training and indoctrination can deal with, and I don't know how large this effect was in either case. It's just a point of interest.
I've heard the same thing, I've also heard from people that did their
Ah.... the ignorance... there was a full deity for the apples... from the wiki: In Norse mythology, Iðunn is a goddess associated with apples and youth
However - I don't think that there is any profession which is unsuitable for women or minorities. And, sometimes, the woman, or the minority really is the best qualified.
What sort of degree qualifies a woman to be a sperm donor?
"Sperm donor" is nearly synonymous with "prostitute". Women have been in that profession since before we started counting time.
"Windows is like the faint smell of piss in a subway: it's there, and there's nothing you can do about it." - Charlie Br
That's quite a little rant you put together, but it doesn't change the facts.
Fitness standards in both the US Marines (not to mention the US Army and other services) are "gender normed" rather than the same. Example:
Marine Corps Physical Fitness Test Points - Male
Marine Corps Physical Fitness Test Points - Female
Judging women on the mens scale will cause their scores to plummet.
Despite your attempt to misquote me and distort the meaning of what I wrote, the fact remains that the female office you so approve of wrote this:
But there came a point when I could not persuade my body to perform. It wasn’t a matter of will but of pure physical strength. My mind wanted more, but my muscles quivered in failure after multiple attempts. I began to shiver as I got cold. I was told I could not continue
PURE PHYSICAL STRENGTH.
Current and Past SOCOM Commanders Split on Women in Combat
The current SOCOM commander is limited in what he can say as a serving officer. The former commander is not so constrained and seems to have some insights that you lack. Do you plan to write him and insult his penis too?
You should probably read this paper:
New British Ministry of Defence Review Paper Shreds Case for Women in Ground Close Combat
Special ops forces fear standards will be lowered for women
Men in U.S. special operations forces do not believe women can meet the physical and mental standards to join their ranks, and fear the requirements will be lowered to integrate them into the elite units, polling shows.
The surveys, reported by The Associated Press, found widespread concerns in special ops that Pentagon leaders would "capitulate to political pressure, allowing erosion of training standards."
Some women already in the elite forces expressed similar worries, the AP said.
Frankly I'm amused at the silly insults you hurl at me, and find your attempts to denigrate me both pathetic and ineffective. You know nothing about me other than I have a view different than yours, one that is shared by no small number of warriors and people who have looked these matters on a serious basis. For all you know I could have been callsign leader in a Fireforce, or a member of C Squadron, a Seabee, a USAFSOC PJ, a Legionnaire with 2e REP, an FBI HRT sniper, an armored cavalry troop commander in 3rd ACR, or simply someone that bothers to be informed. Whatever I've done in life you'll probably never know what it was since I value my privacy more than I value the approval of Internet "tough guys."
For all your claims as to having "made the grade," or "made the cut," all of which are both vague and unsubstantiated, I don't see you bringing much to this discussion beyond what we could get from a communist dog catcher in some university district in Melbourne. Perhaps you actually were the chief supply clerk, underwear exchange, 1 Commando, or maybe something more interesting. All you seem to be today is just another internet "tough guy" twisting words and hurling abuse to try to compensate for a bad argument derived from strong political beliefs of dubious merit.
Pro tip: "Stand in the door!" does not mean you should queue at a building exit to wait for quitting time and the race to the parking lot.
much of left-wing thought is a kind of playing with fire by people who don't even know that fire is hot - George Orwell