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The Chicago Suburb That's Trying To Kill the Car (politico.com)
HughPickens.com writes: T. R. Goldman writes at Politico that downtown Evanston, Illinois—a sturdy, tree-lined Victorian city wedged neatly between Lake Michigan and Chicago's northern border, is missing one thing — cars. Or, more accurately, it's missing a lot of cars. Thanks to concerted planning, new developments are rising within a 10-minute walk of two rail lines and half-a-dozen bus routes and the local automobile ownership rate is nearly half that of the surrounding area. According to Goldman, the whole point of the suburbs, reinforced by decades of local zoning laws and developers' plans for a car-centric lifestyle, was that you weren't supposed to live on top of your neighbor, that there was supposed to be plenty of parking everywhere you went and that you weren't supposed to walk anywhere.
"But Evanston had a different idea: What if a suburban downtown became a place where pedestrians ruled and cars were actively discouraged?" writes Goldman. "Beginning in 1986, a new plan for Evanston embraced the idea of a '24/7' downtown, pouring resources into increasing the density of its downtown—a density that also meant decreasing residents' reliance on automobiles. As a compact city, Evanston couldn't compete with the vast sprawling parking spots of the Old Orchard Mall. It had to build a different sort of appeal."
Evanston has gained recognition and reputation for efforts related to sustainability, including those by government, citizens, and institutions and one thing that Evanston does to reduce the number of cars is let individual car owners rent their idle cars to other drivers through an online service. The service is being provided by a San Francisco-based startup called Getaround, and it's facilitated by a two-year, $475,000 federal research grant to the Center for Neighborhood Technology that's being implemented by the Shared-Use Mobility Center. Getaround claims that a car owner can make as much as $10,000 a year by renting out a vehicle and that renters can get a car to use when they need one for as little as $5 an hour.
Sharon Feigon says the new program is designed to test different models for car sharing in communities with different economic characteristics — ranging from low to moderate income communities in the city to more suburban areas like Evanston. "We'll also be surveying people about their use to better understand how it works and whether it actually leads to some people selling their cars, whether it reduces carbon dioxide emissions and vehicle miles traveled," says Feigon. "Car owners can make a little money and feel good that their car is in service to others. We expect 10,000 people will use the service over the two-year test period.''
"But Evanston had a different idea: What if a suburban downtown became a place where pedestrians ruled and cars were actively discouraged?" writes Goldman. "Beginning in 1986, a new plan for Evanston embraced the idea of a '24/7' downtown, pouring resources into increasing the density of its downtown—a density that also meant decreasing residents' reliance on automobiles. As a compact city, Evanston couldn't compete with the vast sprawling parking spots of the Old Orchard Mall. It had to build a different sort of appeal."
Evanston has gained recognition and reputation for efforts related to sustainability, including those by government, citizens, and institutions and one thing that Evanston does to reduce the number of cars is let individual car owners rent their idle cars to other drivers through an online service. The service is being provided by a San Francisco-based startup called Getaround, and it's facilitated by a two-year, $475,000 federal research grant to the Center for Neighborhood Technology that's being implemented by the Shared-Use Mobility Center. Getaround claims that a car owner can make as much as $10,000 a year by renting out a vehicle and that renters can get a car to use when they need one for as little as $5 an hour.
Sharon Feigon says the new program is designed to test different models for car sharing in communities with different economic characteristics — ranging from low to moderate income communities in the city to more suburban areas like Evanston. "We'll also be surveying people about their use to better understand how it works and whether it actually leads to some people selling their cars, whether it reduces carbon dioxide emissions and vehicle miles traveled," says Feigon. "Car owners can make a little money and feel good that their car is in service to others. We expect 10,000 people will use the service over the two-year test period.''
Not first, cos I had to walk, and the other guy drove.
No and the whole thing is disingenuous. If you think people should have a lower standard of living (less privacy, higher rent, less living space, probably less parks/lawns) for the sake of the environment, at least have the balls to say it openly. You can say you're happier living in a city but don't say everyone is, and don't call it a suburb.
If video games influenced behavior the Pac Man generation would be eating pills and running away from their problems.
How is this different than any other major metropolitan area where car ownership isn't necessary within the city limits? It's all great when you have two major rail lines and half a dozen bus lines within a 10 minute walk. If you're a fast runner 20 minutes will get you almost anywhere within the Evanston, IL city limits. But it just isn't possible in 99.9% of the rest of the country that doesn't have major rail lines and multiple bus lines. I live in a Metropolitan area of 300k people and it's a 3 mile walk just to the nearest bus stop.
Yep. Whether you want to destroy your kids lungs in London, choke on lovely smog in Paris, or give yourself cancer by walking around the polluted streets of Rome, Europe is definitely your go-to destination for people who want to walk around in cties.
So, you can rent a car for as little as $5/hour (and presumably, rent your own car for a similar amount), and you can earn $10k/year renting your car?
Which suggests you are renting your car out for 2000 hours a year (~6 hours a day)...
Somehow, I don't think so.
Also, there is the question of insurance (remember, the same problem people who hate Uber insist is a deal-killer?).
"I do not agree with what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it"
I see it more as political misalignment.
Usually you can maintain these life style changes with the support of a small local government. But the supporters of these small local governments are also the ones who do not approve of such life styles. The groups who does approve of such lifestyle seem to support a larger government control where it is nearly impossible to implement.
Communism and Socialism work better with a small community where the community at a size where they can make a consensus. Being that they often share a similar culture, and demographics. Once you get larger population the differences begin to cause more conflict causing to less actionable government, and moving towards to a dictatorial type of government.
Chicago is a large city, so a community in the city can implement such changes but trying to make it city wide, will only cause problems.
If something is so important that you feel the need to post it on the internet... It probably isn't that important.
This is an advertisement for Agenda 21. Pack people into cities, and restrict travel by means of coercion.
There are plenty of people who walk in American cities, it is because there is too much traffic. However Americans are far better drivers than Europe and most of the traffic come from people who do not live in the city.
If something is so important that you feel the need to post it on the internet... It probably isn't that important.
Zoning and developers followed the desires of our parents and grandparents. You may not like cars but they were seen as the embodiment of freedom for your ancestors - go anywhere you want, quickly, and on your own schedule.
The parts of cities that didn't support that attitude languished (inner cities) and areas that did flourished (suburbs).
TLDR: Infrastructure conformed to the culture.
And I utterly despise it. Here's how it works out.
1) They tear down lanes, increasing traffic, and turn them into ugly, overly broad sidewalks and bike lanes that nobody uses,
2) Installing deliberate "baffles" to slow down traffic flow. For example, here on Snorrabraut they have the center lane as an alternating turn lane into every little side street, and the outerlane in each direction also repeatedly turn into turn lanes, so that drivers have to keep alternating between the left and right lanes... with stoplights at each little intersection, of course.
3) "Increasing density" by ripping out all of the parking. This has the lovely side effect of, during busy times, cars that normally would have just parked instead have to circle around for long periods looking for spaces. Great for the environment, that! They usually rip out the parking first and then worry about whether they actually have anything to build there later.
4) "Increasing density" by ripping out public spaces. The hardest one to see go was Hjartatorg, as it had been basically built up and decorated by the city's teenagers, murals covering every square meter of the sides.
5) "Increasing density" by pushing out lower density businesses that people actually enjoy, like entertainment, for high density residential (these days, often hotels or apartments for tourists) and higher profit commercial.
6) "Increasing density" by building "up". The city is covered in tower cranes, each competing to build taller buildings than the last, and all doing their damnedest to block views of the ocean and famous city landmarks.
7) Going hyperaggressive on parking fines. There's even parking meters at the hospital parking lot, and meter readers go around ticketing patients' cars - even emergency room patients. On Menningarnótt they shut down car access to the entire city - which would be fine (it's a big festival), except that they don't provide nearly enough parking even for people at bus stops wanting to catch the buses into the city that they're supposed to take, and then go around ticketing all the cars on the outlots.
8) Building new buildings with insufficient parking, or - latest trend - no parking at all.
And on and on. It's so ridiculous in general, but even more ridiculous here on one of the windiest places on the planet, where winter lasts half a year, where there's almost no sun in the winter, etc.
And for what? So that we can't go places when we're sick or injured? So people can't commute? So that we have to exercise in their proscribed manner rather than our own? (my way to exercise is planting trees and improving my land... screw you, environment!) So that we have to live in little apartments in a city with ever-shrinking public spaces and ever-decreasing view? So that we can use a means of transportation that's 20+ times more likely to get you seriously injured per kilometer than driving, and almost as likely to seriously injure pedestrians? So that we can burn ~40 calories per kilometer biking (significantly more walking) which, at a local average embodied CO2 per food calorie of something of probably around 6g/kcal works out to 240g/km, three times worse than driving alone in a Prius** (even if you lower your baseline metabolism that only saves you about 14kcal/day/kg body mass reduction, far less than you burn to achieve that weight loss**)? Just ignoring the potentially even bigger issues from producing all of that extra food, such as methane emissions, destruction of habitat, algal blooms, pesticide pollution, damm
"Oh, goodness. Look at my wrist, I have to go." "But what about your clothes?" "I don't love these."
And,,,last I checked, you would still be breathing the same air regardless if you drove or teleported around those cities.
Soooo no exactly sure what your point was.
Actually, the air in Paris is worse:
http://www.numbeo.com/pollutio...
They built a compact microcity next to the VRE train line in Manassas Park VA. City Center in Manassas Park. Businesses on the ground floor, condo and apartments on top, complete with sidewalks in a nice compact dense setup. Drive by and 75% of the businesses are vacant and the streets are lined with cars.
It isn't Communism or Socialism due to any particular service.
Just like having roads isn't communism or socialism.
If something is so important that you feel the need to post it on the internet... It probably isn't that important.
"However Americans are far better drivers than Europe..."
Then I don't understand how any Europeans are left alive. Which Americans? Minneapolitans? Which Europeans? Romans? How about Baltimore versus Munich?
I find it interested that some of the places with the highest percentages of pedestrians and cyclists have the nastiest weather. Evanston? Some cities in Scandinavia? Why not Mediterranean cities or San Diego? People are strange.
The Chicago Suburb That's Trying To Kill the Car
Just let out the clutch real fast without giving it enough gas.
Better known as 318230.
However Americans are far better drivers than Europe and most of the traffic come from people who do not live in the city.
Lol, what a ridiculous thing to say. Europe is a big place (as is America), and driving standards vary a lot across the many countries it comprises, so it's completely meaningful to talk as if there is one standard of driving. I'm sure standards vary across the USA also, but it's not my experience that Americans are better drivers than the Europeans I'm familiar with.
The UK has a stringent driving test (far more stringent than what I understand is typical in the USA), and I have been to few places with driving standards that come close; certainly not the parts of the USA where I've driven. Germany is possibly better inside cities, but there are some lunatics on the autobahns. France and Italy, I grant you, there are a lot of questionable drivers in the cities, but I would say the average standard is quite good. I can only judge eastern Europe from all the dashcam footage on youtube, and let's just say that I hope that isn't too representative.
Of course, that's just my empirical view, but simply looking at the stats, we can see that the since USA has 11.6 road fatalities per 100,000 inhabitants per year, while the UK is on 3.5, Germany 4.3, France 4.9, Italy 6.2, Russia 18.6, my empirical observations seem to be in line with reality.
Oh no... it's the future.
If Americans where better drivers than Europeans then the most important statistic in driving quality (aka the death rate per km driven) would be lower in America than Europe. The problem for your assertion is that it is higher. In fact the USA is pretty much the most dangerous place in the first/western world to go anywhere near a road.
Central planning certainly has problems, but that statement is just false. Ever heard of the tragedy of the commons?
The suburbs are for cars. The problem is that too many people live in the suburbs. More people should live in cities. Many people don't want to live in cities because they are awful to live in. That is a problem which can be solved. Cities are more efficient than suburbs. Instead of making cities nicer and going towards efficiency, we went towards suburban sprawl. People are now commonly commuting for more than two hours a day. That uses a lot of energy, creates a lot of pollution, and wastes a lot of time that people will never get back. Suburban sprawl is killing us by the thousands.
Let's improve our cities, and improve public transportation within them, so that we can have less cars overall.
As for what to do about cars, here's my suggestion; people who do live in the suburbs should be organized into bioregional communities with planned centers. Everyone parks at the edge of the community, in one place. That one place can have proper drainage with an oil trap to prevent or at least reduce toxic runoff, some area to work on autos, etc etc. The foot path should be wide enough to get vehicles in to bring in building supplies and so on, but people should bring their groceries to their door in a cart, golf or otherwise. We'd have less roads to maintain, people wouldn't have to huff exhaust in their homes, etc. Of course, you do give up some comfort that way, but covered walkways can be built, etc. And you can site some homes close to parking for those who like that.
What cities should do is institute PRT, starting in the city center, and first reduce cars (congestion charges, etc) and then remove them altogether as the system spreads. That would be far more efficient than this private auto thing we have going now.
"You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
and it's Communism & Socialism to have healthcare for all. Yet in the usa some people us the jail / prison system to be there doctor for the stuff that ER does not cover at a ever higher cost then the cost of the ER.
Did you learn that logic at the same government run school that taught you grammar and spelling?
I lived in a city that thought they were being smart by discouraging car traffic. They made large stores like Walmart undersize their parking lots on purpose to make it frustrating to find parking. They turned all tertiary roads into cul de sacs. They even timed the signals to create maximum traffic. All they accomplished was making traffic really bad. Nobody stopped driving. There are some basic facts that these nuts don't seems to understand:
1. Most people do not want to live with common walls. It's an incredibly stressful way of life.
2. Most people do not want to live in high density urban centers. People want some space of their own.
3. You can't do things like shop by taking the bus or train. Who's going to carry your groceries, the bus driver?
4. People with children want space for them to play outside without having to be constantly vigilant. That means a private yard.
I'm happy for these people to make their places unlivable. They are driving up my property values.
Taipei has made remarkable progress with public transit, but it was always a very walkable city. The main reason is zoning (or lack thereof), which allows businesses and residences to co-mingle. In most Taiwanese cities, you're literally never more than a few hundred meters away from a 7-11 or Family Mart, and there's an ample scattering of supermarkets, eateries, and other shops in between.
The same thing could be accomplished in most American suburbs by simply allowing more variances for people who want to, say, convert their living room into a small shop. That way, if you just need a carton of milk (for example), you wouldn't have to drive to the supermarket, you could just walk a couple of blocks to Mrs. Smith's house.
XML is like violence. If it doesn't solve your problem, you're not using enough of it. --AC
Renting other people's cars? Sounds dangerous, what with the raping and all! Just too dangerous to allow. You'll have to have at least 10 cars, and a building, and a parking lot, and a bunch of special insurance and counter reps and detailers and think about all the jobs that creates! And what about the poor cab companies? They paid millions for those medallions!
Gamingmuseum.com: Give your 3D accelerator a rest.
Wolfram Alpha says otherwise - over two and a half times the number of accidents per person in America (0.00625) vs the number of accidents per person in Europe (0.0024).
But they're wielding the Department of Transportation and urban zoning as blunt weapons to do it, and being serious assholes about the whole thing.
They're also failing to realize that by running off people who want or need to drive into the city, they're going to end up choking off commerce. But the limp-wristed hipsters running the place now either don't care or would see it as some kind of redistributive, disruptive accomplishment, so I kind of just want to watch the entire shebang come crashing down in flames to see the expression on their faces.
It seems to be an article of faith among urban planners that the way to deal with cars is just to get rid of them, as if you can wave your hands and simply undo 60-odd years of growth and sprawl enabled by cars.
For sure cars have drawbacks, but so many of the planning decisions which seem to be anti-car seem to be somewhat ideologically driven rather than recognizing that arbitrarily making cars more difficult (less parking, narrower roads built with "traffic calming" features, etc) really is a kind of net negative when the larger geography and established infrastructure can't possibly be adapted on a timescale to accommodate it.
We had hundreds of miles of streetcar in 1950, but rebuilding it with light rail has taken over a decade and there's only two lines built. It's cost somewhere in the neighborhood of 1.7 billion dollars to build those two lines. I think the projected cost of the Southwest line is something on the order of 1.5 billion dollars and has a crazy route that will maul some of the city's parks and somehow manages not to serve the Hennepin Avenue corridor, despite it being one the most ideal places to build rail service to support existing high density residence.
The bus system is a joke, only practical for suburban commuters -- any kind of urban trip you could make in 20 minutes in a car is an hour odyssey not including time spent waiting for the bus.
Wolfram Alpha says otherwise - over two and a half times the number of accidents per person in America (0.00625) vs the number of accidents per person in Europe (0.0024).
However, we also own more vehicles than Europe. (There is a study going around which claims that western europeans specifically own more cars than Americans, but it's bullshit; it doesn't count light trucks, which are a massive segment of the passenger vehicle market, like it or not.) Americans own more vehicles per person than almost any other nation. Shit, I've got three. I can even drive two of them, although one leaks a lot so I'm not. Looks like I have to yank the motor to solve that one, should have known better than to mess with an Audi.
"You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
But that wouldn't allow you to get the best DEALs. I tend to look at all the ads for the sales at the various grocery stores in my somewhat immediate area.
I pick out what's on sale at the various stores and on my shopping day (usually one day a week mainly)...I hit anywhere from 2-5 different stores to get what is on sale and I make up what I'm gonna cook largely based on that.
I usually only hit the grocery store once a week, but I buy a ton of stuff...most to use that week (I don't buy processed foods really, just fresh ingredients to cook from scratch)...some to freeze (large cuts of meat on sale, like pork shoulder for $0.99/lb).
And that doesn't even come close to what I grab when I make a trip to Sam's or Costco warehouse stores.
I dunno how people that really cook can manage in cities without a car. I just have to guess your choices are severely limited on what you have available and what prices you can get.....
Light travels faster than sound. This is why some people appear bright until you hear them speak.........
considering Chicago's murder rate this year.
I knew this was wrong, so I took the lazy way and checked Wikipedia. For the first-world countries they provide the numbers, these countries have the same or more deaths per km:
Spain
Belgium
Japan
New Zealand
Czech Republic
South Korea
Not the worst. Not even close.
Please stop making up facts.
Gamingmuseum.com: Give your 3D accelerator a rest.
However Americans are far better drivers than Europe...
Do you include Germany? Because the average driver in Germany would put most American drivers to shame.
"What the American public doesn't know is what makes them the American public." -Ray Zalinsky (Tommy Boy)
Vehicle pollution tends to have a much higher level in a localized zone around the source (i.e. the vehicles on the road), so walking along the streets of a city, you are experiencing the highest possible levels for an extended period. You'll spend less time in that air if you drive, and your car will probably filter some of the pollution, and then your destination is probably indoors. In buildings even right next to a street, a significant percentage of pollution has dispersed by the time the air gets into the building, even before any filtration/air conditioning systems do their stuff.
The cost of owning a car (let alone fueling it) will FAR exceed any savings you obtain by getting "deals" on your weekly groceries.
Umm, from the same page I linked, road fatalities per billion vehicle-km; USA 7.6, UK 4.3, France 6.3, Germany 4.9. Pretty much the same proportions, and the USA is still way worse than the major European countries.
Oh no... it's the future.
That number is meaningless. You want the number of accidents per person per unit of distance travelled. And here, because Americans ride in their cars much more than Europeans, we do not look so bad.
(Too lazy to struggle with WolframAlpha to give you a link here myself.)
In Soviet Washington the swamp drains you.
I really do like Evanston... been working here for almost 14 years and I've gotten a chance to see the building boom in downtown during that time. It really is more of a city than a suburb. There's plenty of suburban sprawl too... many tree-lined side streets with a garage for every house, and lots of cars parked along said streets. It's just downtown that is building up so dramatically. The only limit to outward spread is the fact that there's a great big lake along the entire eastern edge of town, a great big city to the south, and already-sprawled suburbs to the north and west.
For many of us that commute to Evanston for work or for entertainment, a car is still a necessity. The surrounding suburbs, and even parts of the city, lack a convenient public transportation method to get there efficiently - multiple slow buses or interchanges between bus and rail. And the big parking lot along the lakefront, also known as Northwestern University, pulls in many cars like mine that have to travel along congested streets. Streets that are poorly plowed at best in winter. I'm fairly certain Evanston has just one snowplow that they loan out to Chicago at the first sign of snow.
The most car-unfriendly development in recent years has been the new system of bike lanes. I'm all for making it safe, convenient, and desirable to use a bicycle to commute and would love to see a bike lane on just about every street. But they decided in some downtown areas to put the bicycle lane next to the curb, between the sidewalk and parked cars. While this is great for helping bicyclists avoid being "doored" by oblivious motorists exiting vehicles, it means that when I make a right turn across a bike lane I have to somehow have kept track of potential bicyclists over the last block and be able to see through the SUV that is inevitably parked at the corner in order to make sure I'm not cutting off or running over a rider.
It really doesn't help that too many cyclists in Evanston are just plain batshit crazy (far more so than those I've seen in Chicago). Speeding along side streets or main streets with no regard for stop signs and little regard for stoplights. Often clad in spandex, hunched over the handlebars as if they're racing to the end of the next stage.
You really can't imagine someone preferring walking over driving? It's incomprehensible to you that it might even be possible?
No wonder so many Americans get so fat that they need to ride a scooter around the Wal-Mart.
You are welcome on my lawn.
No kidding. I went to England and they didn't even know which side of the street to drive on.
You are welcome on my lawn.
But that's communistic!
My example was intended for those times when you run out of something, like... "Honey, we don't have enough milk for breakfast, so you'll have to go get some." In that case, you're not going to drive halfway across town to save twenty cents on whatever it is you need. More to the point, when most of what you need is within walking distance, such elaborate planning (as you describe) is not as necessary.
My nearest supermarket is a five-minute walk. Three minutes in the opposite direction is a traditional "wet" market. Another ten minutes beyond that is another supermarket (though I usually take a bus for that one). Some things are farther away, but this city has excellent public transit, so nothing is more than about 35~40 minutes away. I spend maybe 20 or 30 bucks a month on transportation, perhaps a bit more if I take the taxi a few extra times for some reason.
But Taipei is not a good comparison to Evanston, it's far more densely populated. (There are probably two or three hundred thousand people within a 1 km radius from me right now.) The real problem in America is suburban sprawl, where millions of people are trapped in business-free zones, often miles away from even the nearest gas station. Simply allowing more flexibility in zoning would spur the growth of a more decentralized and convenient array of options, many of which could be accessible on foot.
XML is like violence. If it doesn't solve your problem, you're not using enough of it. --AC
To take into account the traffic jam near Paris, you should count the road fatalities per vehicle-hour. ;-)
but the terrible murder problem in Chicago
What makes you think there is a murder problem? Check the statistics, compare them to other cities. You'd find Chicago wouldn't even make the Top 30 worse. Might not even make the top 100.
That's because our Canyoneros tend to kill and maim more people in accidents. That 65 tons of American Pride packs a punch.
Per 100,000
US:France - 11.6 / 4.9 = 2.367
US:UK - 11.6 / 3.5 = 3.314
US:Germany - 11.6 / 4.3 = 2.698
US:Italy - 11.6 / 6.2 = 1.871
US:Russia - 11.6 / 18.6 = 0.624
Per billion vehicle-km
US:France - 7.6 / 6.3 = 1.206
US:UK - 7.6 / 4.3 = 1.767
US:Germany - 7.6 / 4.9 = 1.551
Yes, basically the same proportions if by basically the same you mean the ratios drop by half.
"Lack of speed can be overcome. In the worst case by patience." --Znork
You're kidding me, right? Turn signals are optional, as is driving within the lines, staying out of the passing lane, not tailgating, and in general paying attention to what's around you (cars, pedestrians, etc...), just to list a few issues I've experienced in Boston, Los Angeles, and around Georgia. The only reason there aren't more accidents is because traffic is so light. Contrast this with the northern European countries, such as Germany, Denmark and the BeNeLux area, where they drive faster and traffic is worse but the drivers know what they're doing and (apart from speeding) mostly follow the rules. At least for Belgium I suspect this is because driver's education is much more thorough and the exam harder.
I can't speak for the Mediterranean, but you have no idea what you're talking about if you're lumping all Europeans together.
In this case the per capita statistic is the wrong one, but it's still useful. It shows that for a American, there's a higher risk of being injured in a road accident — yes, that's because they drive more. But that's because the country is organised around driving more, which means there's little choice but to take that risk.
Given a job offer in the US and another somewhere in Europe, I could choose the one in Europe and face less chance of dying in a road accident.
Eventually the density of the city will be so high that it'll look a bit like this.
Actually state roads are socialism, they're just a good kind because they increase collective freedom have low bureaucratic overhead. Yes, I'm a Libertarian but I also believe in Social Goods. Sometimes government is the least bad answer, anyone who can't handle that concept is an anarchist.
While in the UK, I rented a car and then drove around for a while (it is strange shifting with the left hand). Then I got on the Brittany Ferry (I think that was its name) and went to France. In France they drive on the right side of the road but now I'm on the wrong side of the car - and still shifting with my left hand. I didn't bump into anything but I did drive all the way into Paris and they have some Liberty Arch/Monument thingie - I don't recall how to say or spell it, for I am an ignorant American. Anyhow, the traffic pattern is strange. I think I drove around in a circle for like a half hour but I'm not sure it was a circle. I saw that damned arch three times in that half hour. I eventually followed a taxi and he went somewhere and I was able to find a police officer who spoke English (I speak some "French" but it's Canadian French) and he was able to tell me how to get to my hotel.
I parked the car. I didn't get in it again until it was time to leave. I got clear directions from the hotel staff and drove my scared ass back to the UK, turned in the car, and haven't driven in either since. I believe much of Europe has higher driving test standards and rightfully so. Much of the area is older and not designed for cars, it's kind of complicated to me and I made a career out of traffic.
Back to the UK - I still haven't driven the magic roundabouts. I kind of want to but I don't want to scare the locals. For obvious reasons, they fascinate me. I'm not sure who designed them (I read about them at one point but have forgotten the name and it is immaterial) and I'm unsure if they're absolutely brilliant or complete lunatics. There was a small paper done on them, I guess the locals adapted pretty quickly. I don't know how well Americans would deal with it but it takes them about three years, on average, to adjust to a widely changed traffic pattern.
Hmm... I'll get you a link.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/...
It turns out that there's some history on that page. See also:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/...
Imagine that in downtown San Fransisco, Boston, or Atlanta.
"So long and thanks for all the fish."
All forms of government work better with small communities - singling out socialism and communism is just bizarre in this context.
This is not about Chicago, but Evanston. I remember when trolls used to try.
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I don't think there's an actual definition, legal, for suburban. There is urban and rural and the threshold for urban is a lot lower than people probably think. A town with an institution (like a jail or a hospital) with 2500 people is urban. The line is at 1500 people, with no institution, otherwise and below that is rural. This is the data that is used in the census by the federal government. When people claim that more people live in 'cities' they're using the urban statistic so it's not really, necessarily, an accurate statement to make, for example.
"So long and thanks for all the fish."
Taipei has made remarkable progress with public transit, but it was always a very walkable city. The main reason is zoning (or lack thereof), which allows businesses and residences to co-mingle. In most Taiwanese cities, you're literally never more than a few hundred meters away from a 7-11 or Family Mart, and there's an ample scattering of supermarkets, eateries, and other shops in between.
What you say is true. However, in addition to public transit, taxi service is convenient and cheap. Meanwhile, driving a car is not that convenient, with relatively slow speeds, frequent congestion, constant dodging of scooters (thinking of lane splitting where the scooters get to dynamically determine where the lanes are), and a scarcity of parking spaces.
Which is because we can better afford it here. Personal car is almost always the most convenient choice, but it is more expensive overall than public transport...
You'd be a fool — and a good riddance for us here — if you picked a locale based not on the local statistics and quality of life in general, but on just one parameter averaged over an an entire continent.
I see Eastern Ukraine in your future — your above-stated illogic will make your prefer that European region over, say, Houston-area, or Atlanta, or Seattle.
In Soviet Washington the swamp drains you.
All of which supports my basic argument that Taipei has more or less transcended the need for privately owned cars. (Hell, I don't even have a scooter anymore.) Maybe if I lived in Linkou or Wugu, it would make sense to own such a vehicle, but here in the heart of the city, it's a complete waste of time and money. I do have a driver's license, so I can rent a car whenever I need one, but thus far that has never happened.
But I think you'd agree that Taiwan's "mixed zoning" habits are much more conducive to walkable communities, no?
XML is like violence. If it doesn't solve your problem, you're not using enough of it. --AC
" There's a reason that Tour de France competitors burn 7000 calories a day."
Yes, there is. They're the world's most competitive cyclists, racing at speeds about 3 times higher than your average transportation cyclist, and remember that air resistance is a function of velocity squared. The power they're capable of generating, for hours on end, is nearly an order of magnitude greater than a person who does not cycle regularly.
"Bikes take very little energy to be propelled forward, but they get that energy in a horribly inefficient manner using an energy source with massive environmental impacts."
Aside from the fact that many people over-eat and thus need not consume any extra calories - food distribution is incredibly efficient, the cost of fuel for distribution is built-in to the cost of food, and the number of additional calories needed by someone riding a few miles a day amounts to a very small percentage of their daily food budget. Simply adding a slightly larger portion of carbs - one of the cheapest food sources there is - is sufficient.
There's something like 1600 calories in a box of spaghetti that costs ~$1-2. So an extra 200 calories a day costs about twenty five cents.
How much do you spend on gas per day?
Please help metamoderate.
Evanston actually predates chicago by a bit. It's not a suburb. Chicago grew until it pressed against Evanston's southern border.
evanston has some advantages over Chicago. It's got a good solid core of Northwestern University. So it has a lot of young college kids roaming around the city. It's a much smaller city than chicago and the density is easier to maintain. The old joke is that there are more dead people than living (there's a big cemetery near the southern border with chicago).
It also has a lot of infrastructure from being close to chicago. The Purple line is an extension of the CTA, and runs locally on weekends. There are CTA busses that come through, not just suburban busses. There are a couple Metra lines the go through because of proximity to chicago
There are rough neighborhoods to the west (evanston borders the lake on the east so the rich folks are east, the poor folks west.) I haven't read the articles yet, but I'd love to see how the Western part fits in the grand plan
actually, it has meaning
But how DO you shop when you need more than a carton of milk?
How do you haul around15-20 bags of groceries, 12 pack of beer, etc....from the stores to bus(es) to home?
I'm a single guy right now, and I couldn't carry all the stuff I buy weekly on public transport, hell, some times I have trouble fitting it all in my car..especially on a Costco run.
Light travels faster than sound. This is why some people appear bright until you hear them speak.........
Well, there is also the cost/benefits of being able to come and go from door-to-door on my own schedule..there is a LOT of value on that, especially on days with tight schedules and inclement weather.
Hell, I'm trying to figure how to do simple things without a car...like days I want to load up the big Pelican ice chest with beer and ice for game days on saturdays....how would I get my two large bags of ice from the store to home, much less beer to fill it....without a car? I can't imagine trying to do that with a bus even if the stops were within blocks of my house and destination, on a nice weather day...much less a stormy day.
Light travels faster than sound. This is why some people appear bright until you hear them speak.........
The environment in the vehicle is somewhat more self contained and even if you're venting in air from the outside, it should being going through an air filter (a lot of newer vehicles have a cabin air filter) to remove some the pollutants or other particulate matter that's being kicked up. Even though no car is completely sealed off and air tight, it would still be better than being outside and directly exposed. I suppose over a long enough commute, eventually all of the air initially in the car would be replaced with polluted air, but I don't know how long it would take for that to happen so it may not be an issue in the real world.
There's even a study to support such conclusions.
taxi
uber
Car2Go
HourCar
ZipCar
delivery service
There are lots of options if you need to transport something more than you can carry or put into panniers on a bike. BTW, I have a family of 4 and I don't think we've ever had 15-20 bags worth of groceries.
But I think you'd agree that Taiwan's "mixed zoning" habits are much more conducive to walkable communities, no?
I totally agree. I like walking around in Taipei. I even like walking around in New York City. The one additional thing I'll throw in is that even in Taiwan, not all cities are like Taipei. In smaller but still large cities like Taoyuan, walking may not be as pleasant, convenient, or safe, with uneven, weird, or sometimes missing sidewalks. Walking around with small kids or elderly folk requires more caution.
Ever heard of the tragedy of the commons?
Sure, that's what happens when the central planners decide that a shared resource will be set aside for "common use" and not allowed to be privately owned or managed.
Tragedy of the commons is self-correcting so long as there isn't some force preventing the commons from being homesteaded as private property. It's only when the resource is forced to remain a commons that you get a tragedy.
"The state is that great fiction by which everyone tries to live at the expense of everyone else." - Bastiat
What does that change ?
Can you drive more than one vehicle at a time ?
Didn't think so
Avoid the MS tax, always buy I.B.M. PC's (I Built-it Myself)
What does that change ?
Can you drive more than one vehicle at a time ?
Didn't think so
It's not vehicles per person, although some of us have multiple vehicles, as I pointed out. It's vehicles per capita. Americans are more likely to own a vehicle than Europeans, because virtually none of our cities have a decent working public transportation system.
"You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
But how DO you shop when you need more than a carton of milk?
When the supermarket is a 5-min walk, you just make multiple trips as needed. I hit a supermarket once or twice a week, and hit a convenience store once or twice a day (about 1 min walk). It's really not that different from walking across the barnyard to grab a couple of eggs from the chicken coop. (Trust me, I'm from Iowa.)
Evidently, I'm not as "price conscious" as you are, but luckily for me, Taiwanese people are. (A Jewish pal who used to live here would joke that if his girlfriend got pregnant, their kids would be the stingiest people on the planet...;-) Thus, the local market is very competitive, and you're unlikely to save more than a few percent, no matter how far you travel.
If I put my mind to it, it's not hard to cram a couple of weeks' worth of groceries into two or three bags, easily portable with two hands for the short distance involved. (I'm single too, and do a lot of cooking at home.) But for the most part I don't HAVE to put that much thought into it. My grocery store is five minutes away by foot... If I need something that I can't get at the 7-11 in five minutes, I'll get it from the supermarket in fifteen minutes. They are both open 24/7.
XML is like violence. If it doesn't solve your problem, you're not using enough of it. --AC
Well, there's that.
You are welcome on my lawn.
This is true. And the need for a vehicle becomes more apparent as you get to cities smaller than that... say, Douliu or Pingdong... Still, I think Taiwan is largely on the right track in this regard. (Politics is another kettle of fish...)
XML is like violence. If it doesn't solve your problem, you're not using enough of it. --AC
How about when the commons is the air and water we share, and people are busy polluting it? Is somebody going to hack out a piece of air and not allow pollutants in it?
"When you have eliminated the unacceptable, whatever is left, however improbable, must be the truthiness" - Holmes
yes, they are harder to get. ,oh, I have to be aware that the road turns, but not the cyclist in this case because he is on a bike lane separated by grass. and then 5 pictures later I have to be aware of the cyclist because the bike lane was not separated by anything but a white line and iirc they called that "the equipment of the road" that I had to be aware of, which also sounded weird before translation. :)
When I got my drivers license, I had to have 16 hours of driving lessons, and I believe just as many theory lessons and I think that number has gone up. It cost around 2500$ to get the license 20 years ago and I didn't fail a test, not the official test or the ones the driving school had.
Then I had to go to the written test and then the actual driving test(I did end up having 4 extra driving hours because there was a shortage of police officers to take the driving test with me, so I had to wait 1 month and needed to keep the few skills I had fresh in my mind). The written test was kind of like multiple choice where you saw a picture and then should tick off anything from 1 to 5 things. Some of them were really hard because you had to know what they wanted to tell you with that crappy picture, like
And they had their trick questions too. In none of the pictures it was OK to use the horn. :D
I've taken lots of driving instruction - it's a passion and was also my job while enlisted, at least for quite a while. However, they happily accepted my license as "proof" that I could drive. They probably should have some subset of tests for foreign drivers, seeing as they drive on the wrong side of the road. It's not easy to shift, at first, and I don't really prefer an automatic. I can tell you, with no ego issues, that I truly sucked at driving in the UK for the first few hours.
Then, after adjusting, I was in France, on the right side of the road, on the wrong side of the car, still shifting with the left hand, while unaware of the local customs and just barely understanding the signage. So, I sucked in France too. The whole thing on the other side of the arch baffled me - I had no idea where to go. At that point, I realized I was a danger to myself and others and opted to not drive in Paris until leaving.
They really should require some sort of basic test, it could be quick and administered a single time - even by the rental car company (who may even get breaks on their insurance), to prove basic competency. I was not competent, then I was, then I wasn't, and then I was horrifically incompetent. There is also a different type of driving there. Much of it seems to be at slower, in-city, speeds. Sure, there are areas to open up the throttle but much of the driving seems to be urban. As an aside, I suspect that accounts for a portion of the difference in the per capita total automobile fatalities. There are more wide open areas (and higher speed limits - on average, I suspect) at least on a per mile basis but I've not compiled stats on that so take it as a guess and not fact.
Ah well... I survived and didn't kill anyone. I'd not say that I was competent. I'd do it again now that I'm more familiar. I still would be cautious going from one side of the road to the other. That's not something normally encountered in most of the countries that I visit.
"So long and thanks for all the fish."
Evanston specifically (and i lived there for a bit) i would not call a suburb.
Suburbs used to be small towns around a larger city. The city itself would have industry and jobs, and you'd drive out to a place with decent housing stock.
But with Evanston, it was established before Chicago. it's not a satellite city. But a town that happened to have a big neighbor push up on it's southern border.
Personal cars have a high external cost (accidents, pollution, traffic, obesity), and I don't see the correlation with wealth. Countries richer than the USA — including the one I choose to live in — have good public transport.
It's obviously not the only factor, but it is *a* factor.
Western Ukraine is somewhere I'd like to visit. I've only briefly been to Kiev but the country looks beautiful. I've also been to Atlanta. It's a city ruined by traffic. There's a beautiful park near the centre, but it was deserted, perhaps because it's inconvenient to walk to it. The downtown was empty of pedestrians, there didn't seem to be any places to eat or relax. It's a shame. No-one who lived there seemed to realise the city is named after the Atlantic Railroad, and is important because it's at the junction of two major railroads.
I'd pick Kiev over Houston or Atlanta for, say, a 6-month contract. I wouldn't want to live in any of them permanently. (I'm not sure about Seattle.)
Sounds like a royal pain in the ass to me.
But things like what I like to do on the weekends..for instance. I decide on Friday afternoon that I wanna have some friends over to watch football.
I need to go buy a couple cases of beer...and two large bags of ice for my pelican ice chest (keeps it cold for days).
I also want to fire up my smoker, so I need to grab a bag of logs at Academy Sports, which is about 40-50lbs. I also need to get a brisket (12-14lbs) and maybe some ribs....
NOw...how am I supposed to do all that without a car? I don't see how to do that in a couple hours on a bike or on some form of public transportation.
Sure you *can* do things...but why would you want to make life harder on yourself than you need it to be? Hell, I can't imagine having to depend on public transport of a bicycle next time I wanted to have friends over for a crawfish boil or something....
I don't just eat ham sandwiches....or processed foods or take out. And I'd rather spend most of my time at home cooking and having fun, or using my time to go hang with friends. Time is my most valuable commodity. Not having my own private transportation that can get me around and haul things would eat up too much of the little time I have for myself and the enjoyment of my life.
Light travels faster than sound. This is why some people appear bright until you hear them speak.........
Do you have numbers on the total dead in Europe from cars? Tossing around big numbers doesn't mean much when we're the 3rd most populous country in the world.
Get a backpack (or as the Brits seem to call it, a 'day pack' to differentiate it from much larger hiking gear)
Most of the laptop ones seem to be in the 20-25 litre range but I found myself a 30 litre one.
Strap a bag on the front with 'crushable' items such as bread or awkwardly dimensioned ones like toilet paper or cat litter. Beer is a problem but I can fit 2 wine bottles in the front pouch of my backpack.
Get a hand basket rather than a trolley - if you can't carry it home, you're buying too much.
I have 3 supermarkets within a 25 minute radius. Walking 3-4 times a week is the equivalent of 15 bags of groceries.
You'd probably need to own a car either way, unless you live in a location where getting to your job is practical without one, which is not easy for most people.
This has been tried before in nearby Oak Park, another inner ring suburb, as well as State Street in Chicago.
Both failed miserably.
http://articles.chicagotribune.com/1988-11-20/news/8802170858_1_shopping-mall-westminster-mall-pedestrian-mall
That said, I prefer to be somewhere with MIXED mode transportation. Downtown Oak Park now has vehicle traffic, but the sidewalks are wide enough, and there are frequent pedestrian crossing. While you CAN drive through, you can't barrel through at 30 mph. Frankly, I think this is a good balance.
Er did you not read the above. Both per person, and per unit of distance traveled result in the same conclusion. More Americans die on the roads than Europeans.
What I find interesting about this thread is that Americans think they are better for no other reason than "fuck yeah USA #1!!!". This is attitude seems to be common, why is that?
Americans are far better drivers than Europe
Not according to wikipedia.. the US's fatality rate per 100,000 people is 11.6 against 4.9 in France, 6.2 in Italy and 3.5 in the UK. Norway is 2.9, Sweden 3 and it's only the poorer East European countries that are close to the US figure.
To have a right to do a thing is not at all the same as to be right in doing it
While in the UK, I rented a car and then drove around for a while (it is strange shifting with the left hand)
As someone right-handed from the UK, I find it weird driving a left hand drive car and having to take my right hand off the wheel to change gear.
Anyway, I thought Americans all drove automatics?
To have a right to do a thing is not at all the same as to be right in doing it
Per 100,000 US:France - 11.6 / 4.9 = 2.367 US:UK - 11.6 / 3.5 = 3.314 US:Germany - 11.6 / 4.3 = 2.698 US:Italy - 11.6 / 6.2 = 1.871 US:Russia - 11.6 / 18.6 = 0.624
Per billion vehicle-km US:France - 7.6 / 6.3 = 1.206 US:UK - 7.6 / 4.3 = 1.767 US:Germany - 7.6 / 4.9 = 1.551
Yes, basically the same proportions if by basically the same you mean the ratios drop by half.
The US is still significantly higher by either measure. The original claim was that "Americans are far better drivers than Europe". This is clearly not the case, unless by "Europe" you mean "Russia".
To have a right to do a thing is not at all the same as to be right in doing it
That's why wikipedia also shows deaths per billion vehicle kilometres. The US is far from the worst country in the world on this basis, but it still lags behind most Scandinavian and Western European countries.
To have a right to do a thing is not at all the same as to be right in doing it
But how DO you shop when you need more than a carton of milk?
How do you haul around15-20 bags of groceries, 12 pack of beer, etc....from the stores to bus(es) to home?
I'm a single guy right now, and I couldn't carry all the stuff I buy weekly on public transport, hell, some times I have trouble fitting it all in my car..especially on a Costco run.
Don't supermarkets deliver where you live?
I have a car, but I'd rather pay someone else to do my shopping. I know you're missing out on the fun of selecting the freshest looking fruit and veg, but who really cares?
To have a right to do a thing is not at all the same as to be right in doing it
My girlfriend and I go shopping once a week. One of our local supermarkets is about ~10 minutes away by foot. We simply take a backpack and use that for our shopping. It can fit our weekly shopping (including beer, wine, and every other week 6x1.5L of bottled water). Extra beer is purchased as required from the gas station down the road (a 2 minute walk), or from the other supermarket (also 2 minutes).
It's ridiculously easy, and doesn't require a car.
The majority of the Russian population does live in what is geographically considered Europe so I would include it.
Russia, Bosnia and Herzegovina, Moldova, Ukraine, Albania, Montenegro all have higher per 100,000 people fatality rates. When sorted by billion-km driven Bulgaria, Estonia, Czech Republic, and Belgium all score higher and there's about 19 or 20 European countries that don't provide that statistic.
Of course, that's ignoring that this is the fatality rate. That's not necessarily the only metric by which can you judge drivers. You would have to look at non-fatal injuries as well as basic non-injury accident rates to get an accurate picture.
"Lack of speed can be overcome. In the worst case by patience." --Znork
I work from home and I have a truck, two Harley's and a ford focus. We have 3 drivers, me, my wife and my daughter. My daughter goes to college and she commutes. A couple of days a week she gets a ride or takes the bus, the other days she takes the focus when my wife doesn't need it. I guess if we lived in that town we could get rid of the ford focus because there is public transportation available, but of course I have been encouraging my daughter to use the bus more and more. The problem with the bus is it's a commuter line. Last bus out in the morning is 07:15 and the last bus out of the city is 05:30. So that curtails her college involvement if she takes the bus. I have a truck because I used it to haul wood and my Harley's when they get broken and need of fixing beyond my abilities to fix them. If the focus is taken then my wife will use the truck. I think in the end I would never live in such a place because I would never want to get rid of my truck or my Harley's.
Paul E. Bahre
That's what you get for believing stupid people. ;-) Quite a few of us drive a manual - insist on it.
"So long and thanks for all the fish."
Of course. Which is what I was talking about. But they are more convenient.
There aren't any.
I was talking about Eastern Ukraine — Donetsk, Luhansk. They are in Europe and, according to your own words, you'd rather pick a job there, than anywhere in the United States.
In Soviet Washington the swamp drains you.
The "above" I was replying to compared number of accidents per person — without calibration for the distance travelled. Which "above" are you referring to?
In Soviet Washington the swamp drains you.
You're a single guy and you need 15-20 bags of groceries? WTF??? I am married and we shop once a week and it would be very rare to require more then 4 bags. i suspect you are doing it wrong.
The new right fascists are bilingual. They speak English and Bullshit.
New Zealand must be a particularly flagrant case. Roughly one of of three businesses there seem to be "panelbeaters" or body shops. I'm not sure what accounts for the accident rate.
I can't figure out how to link it, but search the comments from Tx above yours. They posted the per km stats and they were equally poor.