Slashdot Mirror


Mother Blames Wi-Fi Allergy For Daughter's Suicide (telegraph.co.uk)

An anonymous reader sends news that a UK woman named Debra Fry has begun a campaign to raise awareness for "electro-hypersensitivity" (EHS) after the suicide of her daughter, Jenny, earlier this year. Fry says her daughter was allergic to Wi-Fi, and blames Jenny's school for not removing wireless routers and other networking equipment. A 2005 report from the World Health Organization said, "EHS has no clear diagnostic criteria and there is no scientific basis to link EHS symptoms to EMF exposure. Further, EHS is not a medical diagnosis, nor is it clear that it represents a single medical problem." School officials were firm in declining to remove the equipment without solid evidence supporting Fry's claims. A public health official said, "The overall scientific evidence does not support the suggestion that such exposure causes acute symptoms or that some people are able to detect radiofrequency fields. Nevertheless effective treatments need to be found for these symptoms."

318 of 503 comments (clear)

  1. Inverse square law by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    Dumb ass bitch

    1. Re:Inverse square law by Rakarra · · Score: 1

      Can't you both be right?

    2. Re:Inverse square law by currently_awake · · Score: 1

      Kids with extreme allergies should be home schooled.

    3. Re:Inverse square law by MitchDev · · Score: 1

      If your kid was allergic to Peanuts, you wouldn't send them to work on a peanut farm, would you?

    4. Re:Inverse square law by omnichad · · Score: 1

      I wouldn't send them to drawing school, that's for sure. Or did you capitalize that for some other reason?

    5. Re:Inverse square law by MitchDev · · Score: 1

      Weird auto-correct thing, I don't know why it happened I hate Peanuts...

  2. Should've used protection. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    Tin foil hat.

    1. Re:Should've used protection. by Rei · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Instead of simply looking down on and being mean to those people, wouldn't it be better to give them a "test for WiFi allergy", wherein wifi is randomly enabled or shut off and they have to indicate how they're feeling? When it's done you show them that they did no better than random and thus aren't allergic. Then they feel they're not being treated as an idiot, yet also feel that they've been tested for it and shown not to have it - even if they choose to believe that such an allergy can exist. Even if this only gets a fraction of these people to stop complaining, it's a win, right?

      --
      I hate to bring up our imminent arrest during your crazy time, but we gotta move.
    2. Re:Should've used protection. by ericloewe · · Score: 5, Insightful

      At this point, they've ignored all scientific evidence. Testing them won't change their minds. Nothing will.

    3. Re:Should've used protection. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      That's kinda been done already with cell towers. A bunch were installed somewhere but had no power to them, and some nutjobs said that they were causing them illness. Anyone claiming to have "WiFi Allergies" or being sensitive to other EMF stuff should just generally be assumed to be a moron.

    4. Re:Should've used protection. by Penguinisto · · Score: 1

      This, right here.

      To be honest, there is research into alleged sensitivity to RF/EM Radiation, and there are credible studies which suggest that even if there is no definitive physical link, the symptoms are quite real (now whether or not it's psychosomatic, or something with an actual physical cause? That's another argument entirely. However, neither finding invalidates the symptoms in such a case.)

      In either case, standard wifi isn't powerful enough to do much, especially when compared to high-tension power lines, or commercial/military radar sets. Yes frequency ranges vary, etc etc... but as parent said, there's an easy way to help folks figure out definitively whether or not it's an actual reaction or just a psychological thing, and appropriate treatment can be set up as a result.

      Personally, I've played with everything from small microwave transmitters up to ECM pods and APG-66 radar sets, and I'm perfectly fine with hanging around it (but in the latter cases, taking precautions to avoid being literally cooked is rather paramount), so I'm not advocating that we pamper anybody here or dismantle civilization to accommodate anybody... but as parent said, that doesn't mean we shouldn't treat someone showing physical or mental symptoms with anything less than basic human dignity.

      --
      Quo usque tandem abutere, Nimbus, patientia nostra?
    5. Re:Should've used protection. by Dutch+Gun · · Score: 2
      --
      Irony: Agile development has too much intertia to be abandoned now.
    6. Re:Should've used protection. by dotwhynot · · Score: 5, Interesting

      Instead of simply looking down on and being mean to those people, wouldn't it be better to give them a "test for WiFi allergy", wherein wifi is randomly enabled or shut off and they have to indicate how they're feeling? When it's done you show them that they did no better than random and thus aren't allergic. Then they feel they're not being treated as an idiot, yet also feel that they've been tested for it and shown not to have it - even if they choose to believe that such an allergy can exist. Even if this only gets a fraction of these people to stop complaining, it's a win, right?

      This has already been done in multiple studies. People claiming allergy/sensitivity to WiFi, or nearby mobile network transmitters, have in experiments only had symptoms when they believed the transmitter was on, regardless of when the transmitter was actually on (source).

      But, the human mind is good at rationalizing away such results if you already are convinced. You have a similar situation with a lot of people even here on Slashdot claiming they can easily hear the difference between lossless music formats and a quality 320 kbps lossy codec encoding, when all the double blind tests shows otherwise.

    7. Re:Should've used protection. by tnk1 · · Score: 2

      That would be unethical, both because you're hawking fraudulent tests, but also because you're encouraging people to believe that their delusion is accepted by the medical community by dint of having a test for it.

    8. Re: Should've used protection. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Well how would we go about treating them with dignity? We would have to give in to their unreasonable demands to turn off the wifi, would we not?

      While there may be some evidence supporting these beliefs, I don't think it justifies any action as there is little / no proof that exposure to a typical wifi network causes acute harm, nor that a typical wifi network would be any less harmful then all the other nearby uses of radio that would be out of the schools control.

      To me it seems like the best way to tackle the problem is not to dignify them, to let them know their "disease" doesn't exist. This seems like the sort of thing that only exists (at least in a way that causes significant symptoms) as placebo, hence if we can convince them they are wrong their symptoms should go away

    9. Re:Should've used protection. by Applehu+Akbar · · Score: 5, Interesting

      I have a buddy who is an old-school radio ham, the kind who builds his own equipment and needs a huge tower to work the low frequencies that the service started out with a century ago.

      Whenever he moves to the edge of a new town, his modus operandi is the same: he puts up the tower first, leaving all his gear crated.

      After several weeks of complaints rolling in about impotence and dead pets, he invites the neighbors over to show them the crated, unpowered rig. Then he hams away in peace.

      There is a similar story from the early Fifties of a town which handled the startup of its new water fluoridation plant in the same way.

    10. Re:Should've used protection. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

      "That would be unethical, both because you're hawking fraudulent tests, but also because you're encouraging people to believe that their delusion is accepted ..."

      Priests have no problem with such a deception.

    11. Re:Should've used protection. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Interesting

      This is a false premise. You don't need to be able to "sense" something for it to be happening or to be harmful to you. Like cosmic rays or x-rays, lead in the environment, etc. This often proposed test would only test if they could sense it, not that it is happening. Maybe some people are "more sensitive" than others anyway.

    12. Re: Should've used protection. by Penguinisto · · Score: 1

      Well how would we go about treating them with dignity? We would have to give in to their unreasonable demands to turn off the wifi, would we not?

      Not really. If there's an established physical link, they can faraday-up their home and be just fine. If there's no physical link (most likely), then psychiatric treatment is in order.

      --
      Quo usque tandem abutere, Nimbus, patientia nostra?
    13. Re: Should've used protection. by Muad'Dave · · Score: 1

      Well how would we go about treating them with dignity?

      I'm an avid amateur radio operator, and even I understand that someone with that sort of mental illness should be given every opportunity to get psychological help. Naturally we should not give in to their demands, much like we'd never limit buildings to one story for all the acrophobics out there. They're helped to realize that their fears are unwarranted and are encouraged to work thru their fear. We should offer the same treatment to people with WiFi allergy delusions.

      --
      Tiller's Rule: Never use a word in written form that you've only heard and never read. You will end up looking foolish.
    14. Re:Should've used protection. by grimmjeeper · · Score: 1

      And that would be different than all of the snake oil sales people out there.... how exactly?

    15. Re: Should've used protection. by ragnar_ianal · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Apparently not. FTFA "Jenny Fry, 15, was found in woodland near her home in Chadlington, on June 11 this year after texting a friend telling her she would not be going to school and intended to kill herself. " I'm sure the cell phone on her person is blasting out all kinds of RF.

    16. Re:Should've used protection. by Opportunist · · Score: 1

      Actually, please don't do this. Tin foil can work as a reflector, and the parabolic, concave body of such a hat would serve exactly the opposite purpose, it would concentrate and magnify.

      Then again, it's like taking an overdose of homeopathetic medicine, so ... carry on.

      --
      We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
    17. Re: Should've used protection. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      They don't care. They'll blame some other unknown source. Even if you put them in a faraday cage, fully explain it, they'll still blame something else...

      The actual underlying cause itself is still a serious issue overall: hypochondria.
      It costs healthcare systems billions each year to deal with these people.
      Luckily more researchers are getting behind efforts to tackle the issue.
      They have already figured out some triggers that can push people in to full-on panic over things that could exist, but are simply natural bodily functions or minor skin oddities.
      A common one is people freaking out over the heart naturally beating slower at times, which can make people think they are dying or having a heart attack if they become conscious of it. Once that sets in, these people end up in a spiral of freaking out more and more, causing pretty severe stress and anxiety.

      Luckily a lot of these issues can be dealt with simply through talking, (self-)hypnosis and others.
      But you can bet some companies will come out with a 'wonder' pill (sugar) to cure them. (Which they will believe anyway, since placebo)

    18. Re: Should've used protection. by Coren22 · · Score: 1

      Naa, sugar pills taste good, they should be given chalk (calcium carbonate) pills. Also, they must cost about $50/month, or will be discounted as not being potent enough.

      --
      APK likes to ask for responses to the same things over and over. Maybe he just likes the responses?
    19. Re:Should've used protection. by Coren22 · · Score: 1

      That article is pure evil. I like it.

      --
      APK likes to ask for responses to the same things over and over. Maybe he just likes the responses?
    20. Re:Should've used protection. by Rakarra · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Instead of simply looking down on and being mean to those people, wouldn't it be better to give them a "test for WiFi allergy", wherein wifi is randomly enabled or shut off and they have to indicate how they're feeling?

      That would suck for the people who are actually trying to use the Wi-Fi.

      They would then come up with some sort of bullshit explanation for why they failed the test. Like "Oh, the damage in the body takes awhile to build up and manifest itself. Wi-Fi is on, but she feels fine? She hasn't been exposed to it long enough to have a noticeable effect. Wi-Fi is off, but she is still feeling unwell? Of course, she hasn't had time to make a full recovery yet."

      These are arguments and mindsets that do not have rationality behind them, so rational arguments trying to convince them are unlikely to work. People who believe in Wi-Fi sickness hold onto it, and that belief is more akin to a religious fervor. If you try to shoot holes in their arguments, they will repeatedly move the goalposts. Now that the child is dead, there's no way, no way at all to test her "electrical sensitivity," so the parents will always be able to hold onto that. There will be no convincing.

      It's been well over a decade since Andrew Wakefield's study on Thimerosal and Autism was roundly debunked, and it was the only study to ever show any link to vaccines. Yet the vaccines == autism belief is alive and well. Expect ESD to not go away any time soon, even though it's easier to test and debunk.

    21. Re:Should've used protection. by Rakarra · · Score: 4, Funny

      After several weeks of complaints rolling in about impotence and dead pets, he invites the neighbors over to show them the crated, unpowered rig. Then he hams away in peace.

      Well clearly then the problem isn't that there's power going through it. The metal structure itself acts as an antenna, so it's the tower, powered or unpowered, that is at fault there.

      I'm just surprised your friend hasn't run into that objection yet.

    22. Re:Should've used protection. by geantvert · · Score: 2

      An most towers have a (long) pyramidal shape. Everyone nows that pyramids concentrate cosmic energies!
      They also attract mummies but that's another story.

    23. Re:Should've used protection. by Rakarra · · Score: 2

      An most towers have a (long) pyramidal shape. Everyone nows that pyramids concentrate cosmic energies!
      They also attract mummies but that's another story.

      I think only the enclosed ones do, because that gives the mummies someplace to hide. You don't see mummies with an open metal girder structure, but it still has problems with electricity and other energies being drawn in.

      But really, living mummies occur when there are real dead bodies buried in a pyramid, and the cosmic energies are gathered and focused by the pyramids into the bodies to reanimate them. If you never put dead people in there in the first place, you won't have mummies.
      Geez, you idiots really need to learn your sciences.

    24. Re:Should've used protection. by MitchDev · · Score: 1

      Hint, they make special schools for the mentally ill. Psychosomatic illnesses ARE mental illnesses.

    25. Re:Should've used protection. by cayenne8 · · Score: 1

      That would be unethical, both because you're hawking fraudulent tests, but also because you're encouraging people to believe that their delusion is accepted by the medical community by dint of having a test for it.

      A fool and his money are soon parted.

      There's a sucker born every minutes.

      Anything for a dollar....

      :)

      --
      Light travels faster than sound. This is why some people appear bright until you hear them speak.........
    26. Re:Should've used protection. by Cederic · · Score: 1

      Breaching ethics because some other cunt is a cunt makes you a cunt too.

    27. Re:Should've used protection. by PopeRatzo · · Score: 1

      "That would be unethical, both because you're hawking fraudulent tests, but also because you're encouraging people to believe that their delusion is accepted ..."

      Priests have no problem with such a deception.

      Neither do psychiatrists.

      --
      You are welcome on my lawn.
    28. Re:Should've used protection. by wisnoskij · · Score: 1

      Sounds like a great way to lose out a bunch of money.
      1. Patent faraday cage clothing.
      2. Design a line of faraday cage clothing.
      3. Charge a ridiculous markup.
      4. Profit.

      --
      Troll is not a replacement for I disagree.
    29. Re:Should've used protection. by Registered+Coward+v2 · · Score: 1

      Instead of simply looking down on and being mean to those people, wouldn't it be better to give them a "test for WiFi allergy", wherein wifi is randomly enabled or shut off and they have to indicate how they're feeling? When it's done you show them that they did no better than random and thus aren't allergic. Then they feel they're not being treated as an idiot, yet also feel that they've been tested for it and shown not to have it - even if they choose to believe that such an allergy can exist. Even if this only gets a fraction of these people to stop complaining, it's a win, right?

      Ideally with a research in front of them with an on off with and a router in front of the participant to avoid any effects from shielding. Turn off router, light go out, turn on router, lights go on and see if participant notices anything. Have research notice the lights and turn router around to avoid any chance lights impact results. Of course, the "router is an empty box" with that looks like a real outer and the on-off switch merely connects to a dc battery that powers an couple of LEDs

      Of course, nut cases, when presented with facts, will argue why your facts are wrong and that there was some other wifi signal causing the problem.

      --
      I'm a consultant - I convert gibberish into cash-flow.
    30. Re:Should've used protection. by Registered+Coward+v2 · · Score: 1

      But, the human mind is good at rationalizing away such results if you already are convinced. You have a similar situation with a lot of people even here on Slashdot claiming they can easily hear the difference between lossless music formats and a quality 320 kbps lossy codec encoding, when all the double blind tests shows otherwise.

      Of course, because a double blind test only prevents them from seeing the music, not hearing it. Duh...

      --
      I'm a consultant - I convert gibberish into cash-flow.
    31. Re:Should've used protection. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      You're giving the people who come up with this stuff too much credit. Careful logical analysis is not usually a strength.

    32. Re:Should've used protection. by Pfhorrest · · Score: 1

      I think the suggestion was not to do one big conclusive scientific study that proves that nobody is "allergic to wifi", but rather to let any given person who thinks they are to "get tested" to determine whether or not they in particular are, without assailing the patient's belief that some people are. Then the patient gets the results back that they, in particular, aren't one of the people who are "allergic to wifi", without getting their defenses up about whether or not there are any such people at all, and they move on to finding something else to blame their symptoms on.

      And maybe they tell their friends who are "allergic to wifi" that they thought they were and got tested and actually weren't, and then those friends go get tested too, and pretty soon nobody knows anybody who's "allergic to wifi" and it stops being a thing. Maybe something else pops up to replace it, but at least wifi gets off the hook as the boogeyman of the day.

      --
      -Forrest Cameranesi, Geek of all Trades
      "I am Sam. Sam I am. I do not like trolls, flames, or spam."
    33. Re:Should've used protection. by omnichad · · Score: 1

      Just a thought, but most double-blind tests with music files have asked which one sounds better, which is too subjective. If the test played two recordings side by side and asked - "are these the same file or different files" it would be a little more reliable.

    34. Re:Should've used protection. by grimmjeeper · · Score: 1

      Exactly my point. The world is full of cunts and they're all alike.

    35. Re:Should've used protection. by TechyImmigrant · · Score: 1

      Instead of simply looking down on and being mean to those people, wouldn't it be better to give them a "test for WiFi allergy", wherein wifi is randomly enabled or shut off and they have to indicate how they're feeling? When it's done you show them that they did no better than random and thus aren't allergic. Then they feel they're not being treated as an idiot, yet also feel that they've been tested for it and shown not to have it - even if they choose to believe that such an allergy can exist. Even if this only gets a fraction of these people to stop complaining, it's a win, right?

      It's been done in controlled experiments. There was no sensitivity to WiFi in evidence.

      --
      I should use this sig to advertise my book ISBN-13 : 978-1501515132.
    36. Re:Should've used protection. by barbariccow · · Score: 1

      That would be unethical, both because you're hawking fraudulent tests, but also because you're encouraging people to believe that their delusion is accepted by the medical community by dint of having a test for it.

      Not really. Everything in science starts out with a hypothesis, in this case yours is that this is a made up illness. You still need to test for it, if you just assume your hypothesis to be true then you are no more scientific than those you seek to judge.

      For me, the more ethical concern would be, what if this is a real thing? Would you support having children inhale peanuts to see if they have a peanut allergy? Though, as a mitigation, the claimed symptoms aren't deadly.

    37. Re:Should've used protection. by barbariccow · · Score: 1

      You have a similar situation with a lot of people even here on Slashdot claiming they can easily hear the difference between lossless music formats and a quality 320 kbps lossy codec encoding, when all the double blind tests shows otherwise.

      Uhhh, if you can't hear the difference it's probably because you aren't using the right equipment to carry the signal: http://www.amazon.com/Diamond-...

    38. Re:Should've used protection. by Darinbob · · Score: 1

      They should specify the particular frequencies that cause mental discomfort.

    39. Re:Should've used protection. by Larry+Lightbulb · · Score: 2, Funny

      If it's an open structure wouldn't the grain run out?

    40. Re:Should've used protection. by Rakarra · · Score: 1

      You're giving the people who come up with this stuff too much credit. Careful logical analysis is not usually a strength.

      Eh, I've been involved in enough of these arguments to see how good the opposition is at moving the goalposts if a claim is debunked.

    41. Re:Should've used protection. by youngone · · Score: 1

      That's what we did when we installed the WiFi at my kids' school years ago. We knew there were going to be a bunch of complaints, we even knew who the complaints were going to come from, so we powered them on after the complaints came in. It did cause some unpleasantness, because some of the complainers were laughed at publicly, but the kids got WiFi. I assumed it wouldn't work, because the Access Points had lights, and the lights were off with on power to them, but it made no difference to the complainers.

    42. Re:Should've used protection. by CauseBy · · Score: 1

      Neither does [whatever group I want to troll about]

    43. Re:Should've used protection. by v1 · · Score: 1

      The vast majority of science agrees that people can neither detect nor be physically affected by EMI. That being said, if a person BELIEVES they can be and are being affected by it, their mind can create a physical response in their bodies. This needs to be handled like any other mental illness. There's no need to test for this any further, it's been done many times, and the result is almost alway that they are sensitive to blinking lights. (ie the belief that there is EMI)

      If a person firmly believes that there are worms in their head and they need to dig them out, and nothing you do can change their mind, you either have to get them some psychiatric trreatment or wait for them to dig their eardrums out with a spoon.

      So yes, in a roundabouts sort of way, the mother might be correct. Her daughter may have indeed committed suicide as a result of her "wifi allergy". But it had nothing to actually do with the EMR being produced by the transmitter. She believed she was being affected, and so her body manifested symptoms in response to her psychological reaction. At that point I'd be redirecting the blame to the parent for not getting their kid the mental health treatment she obviously was needing.

      --
      I work for the Department of Redundancy Department.
    44. Re:Should've used protection. by metrix007 · · Score: 1

      No, these people should be treated with disdain.

      --
      If you ignore ACs because they are anonymous - you're an idiot.
    45. Re:Should've used protection. by Man+Eating+Duck · · Score: 1

      Instead of simply looking down on and being mean to those people, wouldn't it be better to give them a "test for WiFi allergy", wherein wifi is randomly enabled or shut off and they have to indicate how they're feeling?

      It has already been established that any physiological impact from consumer electronics EM radiation is extremely unlikely. Interest groups decline offers to "prove" affliction because they have experienced that it won't give the results they want, instead it consistently proves that *actual EM radiation* has nothing to do with any reaction the subjects may have.

      As with other phobias the impact to health and well-being is likely very real, excluding the attention seekers. "Being mean" and condescending to afflicted people is not constructive. While many of them might be more gullible than the average population for being taken in in the first place, rationality nonetheless stops once real phobia sets in.

      I fully believe that anxiety and more severe negative impacts are very real for a lot of those who think they are afflicted. I also believe that it would be better for everyone to recognise this as a psychological issue rather than a physiological one. These people have *real* problems for imagined reasons.

      Apart from everything else the "awareness drives" are bad; causing unnecessary anxiety and inconvenience for a lot of people that "don't know anything about technology, but better safe than sorry, right?". Not to mention the people around them who are inconvenienced to a lesser or greater degree by having to accommodate the "afflicted" ones.

      --
      Are you a grammar Nazi? I'm trying to improve my English; please correct my errors! :)
  3. Where did I see this?.... Better Call Saul by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Informative

    Funny how reality and fiction sometimes intersect, seems like a tragic episode of Better Call Saul, where Jimmy's brother has electromagnetic hypersensitivity.. Is this even such a thing.. .curious

    1. Re:Where did I see this?.... Better Call Saul by Impy+the+Impiuos+Imp · · Score: 1

      Henry Rollins' character goes off on a rant about omnipresent consumer electronics and their fields causing all their health problems in Johnny Mnemonic from 1995.

      --
      (-1: Post disagrees with my already-settled worldview) is not a valid mod option.
    2. Re:Where did I see this?.... Better Call Saul by desdinova+216 · · Score: 2

      West Virginia.

    3. Re:Where did I see this?.... Better Call Saul by Austerity+Empowers · · Score: 4, Interesting

      Is this even such a thing.. .curious

      Hypochondria is a real illness recognized in the DSM-IV. As far as anyone has ever proven scientifically, "EHS" is a fancy term with absolutely no real evidence. More or less like people who claim wind power makes them sick, it seems to come and go based on whether the victim believes the device is present and turned on. Which is very much like hypochondria...

      Unfortunately, tell people their disease is mental, not physical and they are insulted and rage. When in fact mental diseases are real and certainly FEEL real to the person suffering from them. I find it far more likely that our brain can suffer from "idea viruses" that it takes far too seriously, than somehow our body is reacting to radio waves, when those same waves are, and have always been, present from our favorite daystar (and to a much lesser degree, all the other daystars shining at us).

    4. Re:Where did I see this?.... Better Call Saul by Applehu+Akbar · · Score: 1

      The National Radio Quiet Zone in WV is to protect the Green Bank radio telescope, and has nothing to do with Nonexistent WiFi Allergy Syndrome.

    5. Re:Where did I see this?.... Better Call Saul by Osiris+Ani · · Score: 1

      Henry Rollins' character goes off on a rant about omnipresent consumer electronics and their fields causing all their health problems in Johnny Mnemonic from 1995.

      In the world of Johnny Mnemonic, they have wetware (which is pretty much the whole point), so his rant actually made sense. There’s a difference between our current situation and the one in which these electronic devices are physically embedded into the brain.

    6. Re:Where did I see this?.... Better Call Saul by Fire_Wraith · · Score: 1

      Correct - but lots of (delusional) people who believe they have Wi-Fi or other Electromagnetic spectrum allergies have flocked there as a result, regardless of the real reason for it.

    7. Re:Where did I see this?.... Better Call Saul by iamgnat · · Score: 1

      Unfortunately, tell people their disease is mental, not physical and they are insulted and rage. When in fact mental diseases are real and certainly FEEL real to the person suffering from them. I find it far more likely that our brain can suffer from "idea viruses" that it takes far too seriously, than somehow our body is reacting to radio waves, when those same waves are, and have always been, present from our favorite daystar (and to a much lesser degree, all the other daystars shining at us).

      You aren't accounting for the long history of things that have been attributed to being in someone's mind that later get shown to be real issues. We shouldn't turn off all electronic devices, but more study is certainly worthwhile.

      From my own experience I know I can see fluorescent lights flickering when others around me can't and I used to be able to see refresh "lines" of CRTs when others couldn't. There are also cases where I have detected "noise" from electronics that others couldn't. In all such cases it turned out that the item in question was failing and I just happened to be able to sense/see/hear it sooner than others. From my own non-empirical study it seems that those that have a higher sensitivity to such things also show a propensity for regular migraines.

      I've never felt the need to kill myself over it though or demand the rest of the world return to the stone age.

    8. Re:Where did I see this?.... Better Call Saul by Coren22 · · Score: 1

      I used to be able to hear the hum of flyback transformers in old CRTs that were left on, this doesn't mean you have super human hearing, but many people lose the ability to hear the high frequencies involved as they age.

      --
      APK likes to ask for responses to the same things over and over. Maybe he just likes the responses?
    9. Re:Where did I see this?.... Better Call Saul by omnichad · · Score: 1

      Those are both in the range of 50-75Hz, on average. It should be no surprise that you can see that flickering.

      If you saw flickering in a modern LED light bulb that flickers thousands of times per second, I'd probably be a little more skeptical.

    10. Re:Where did I see this?.... Better Call Saul by Ol+Olsoc · · Score: 1

      Correct - but lots of (delusional) people who believe they have Wi-Fi or other Electromagnetic spectrum allergies have flocked there as a result, regardless of the real reason for it.

      I have bad news for whackjob mommy. We're engulfed in the electromagnetic spectrum, even if we listen to whackjob mommy and turn every human based RF source off.

      Sh/e might try suing mother nature, because what's more, some Gamma rays are created by Thunderstorms.

      http://science.nasa.gov/scienc...

      And those might be of a little more concern than the ridiculously small levels of RF form the far-field of a wifi router.

      --
      The shepherds did so well protecting the flock that the sheep no longer believed that wolves existed.
    11. Re:Where did I see this?.... Better Call Saul by blang · · Score: 1

      And the constant background radiation of the universe itself .

      --
      -- Another senseless waste of fine bytes.
    12. Re:Where did I see this?.... Better Call Saul by KGIII · · Score: 1

      Worse, they're trying to change the town to limit lighting types, microwave use, and other assorted things and may, at some point, have a large enough majority to enact laws impacting those who were there first.

      --
      "So long and thanks for all the fish."
    13. Re:Where did I see this?.... Better Call Saul by KGIII · · Score: 1

      Wind power does output sound which, I suppose, might make one nauseated? I've never had it do so to me but I guess that could actually be possible... Certain frequencies do impact people but, AFAIK, there's no apocryphal "brown note" of legend but I imagine some might make one physically ill if they're sensitive to such.

      --
      "So long and thanks for all the fish."
    14. Re:Where did I see this?.... Better Call Saul by Ol+Olsoc · · Score: 1

      And the constant background radiation of the universe itself .

      And reading the story and links from it, I saw nowhere where there was a doctor's report regarding the child. I did see where she was disruptive at school. She sounds like a teenager to me. But the lack of a doctor's report in the whole story is troubling.

      I think that there is enough evidence that we might just look at a depressed teenager, with a possibility - although remote - of a Munchausen by proxy situation.

      Meanwhile, we are all being given EM radiation exposure every day, unless we live in a Faraday cage made of radioactively depleted materials.

      --
      The shepherds did so well protecting the flock that the sheep no longer believed that wolves existed.
  4. Who needed help here? by MindStalker · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Sad story, a mothers crazy notions about what was causing her daughters illness, leads daughter to assume its true. Kids trust their parents about these things. There is very little difference between a real medical condition and one you believe you are having. The school though, should have looked into getting both of them psychological help.

    1. Re:Who needed help here? by __aaclcg7560 · · Score: 4, Interesting

      Whenever something really bad happened on the ground, my late mother used to blame the space shuttle for flying in God's heaven as the cause. She also believed that the moon landing was a fake and celebrated the Skylab falling into the ocean.

    2. Re:Who needed help here? by Dog-Cow · · Score: 4, Insightful

      It is not a school's responsibility to provide or obtain medical or psychiatric help for parents.

    3. Re:Who needed help here? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Why is it the school's job to diagnose the mental health of students' families and seek help for them? It's a fucking school, not a mental health clinic.

    4. Re:Who needed help here? by BVis · · Score: 5, Informative

      I disagree. In loco parentis allows a school to consider the well-being of the student in a role normally reserved for a parent or other guardian. If a school considers a student's home life to be dangerous, they can intervene with a number of methods, some of which may include medical, psychological, or emotional treatment of a parent.

      But I'm guessing that your implied distaste of the "nanny state" will lead you to ignore any actual facts presented, and you would rather this girl die due to a shitty home life than the state act in any way at all.

      --
      Never underestimate the power of stupid people in large groups.
    5. Re:Who needed help here? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      I disagree with the notion that someone other than the mom is to blame here. Bad shit happens. You can't make the school responsible for everyone/everything. And I'm not sure that you're even accurate that a school has the ability to intervene directly with treatment of a parent - http://www.lawandparents.co.uk/what-in-loco-parentis-means-you.html

      Citation needed.

    6. Re:Who needed help here? by Rakarra · · Score: 1

      Robert Goddard, one of the fathers of rocketry and author of A Method of Reaching Extreme Altitudes used to hear from people often in the 1910s and 1920s who believed that his rockets were traveling high enough to shatter the shield that God placed around the Earth. The dome of the stars.

    7. Re:Who needed help here? by Registered+Coward+v2 · · Score: 1

      I disagree. In loco parentis allows a school to consider the well-being of the student in a role normally reserved for a parent or other guardian. If a school considers a student's home life to be dangerous, they can intervene with a number of methods, some of which may include medical, psychological, or emotional treatment of a parent.

      But I'm guessing that your implied distaste of the "nanny state" will lead you to ignore any actual facts presented, and you would rather this girl die due to a shitty home life than the state act in any way at all.

      However, absent a very obvious and present thereat schools are loathe to intervene, first because they re not mental health professionals and thus cannot diagnose conditions and assisted severity and if the student is a danger to themselves or others. In auditor, doing so would leave them open to lawsuits so they simply do not act until in extremis.

      --
      I'm a consultant - I convert gibberish into cash-flow.
    8. Re: Who needed help here? by Noah+Haders · · Score: 1

      > Psychiatry to fucking begin with is NOT a science

      i'm pretty sure that psychology is a science, and psychiatry is a field of medicine.

    9. Re:Who needed help here? by mikeiver1 · · Score: 1

      Had a customer that called and had me come do an evaluation of her home for supplemental grounding etc. She explained to me that she was sensitive to electro magnet energy and the signals from WiFi, and cellphones caused her no end of trouble including seizures. I get there and she is under nourished from the looks of it. She pulls out her china special EM meter and tells me that she measures "energy" on the PEX water pipes as well as the ground. I advised her about the dubious accuracy of such devices and took measurements with my test tools to show that there was in fact a number of valid grounding conductors. Towards the end of the walk/talk/test, around 2 hours, I asked her how she was feeling? She told me that she felt great. I then pulled out my cell phone that I had in my pocket and showed her that it had been on the whole time. I explained that the area was a black hole for radio signals and that all cell phones would ramp up their power to get to the towers. I did a WiFi audit as well and found that at least 5 different routers were in range. My aim was not to mock but educate her in the hopes that she would focus on things other than imagined illnesses from phantom sources. I may be optimistic but I think a little of it maybe got through to her... Who knows with crazy people though. They will act counter to logic nearly every time.

    10. Re:Who needed help here? by thegarbz · · Score: 1

      "Allowing a school to consider" and "it's not the schools responsibility" are not mutually exclusive.

      They can intervene, they are not required to, and quite frankly given the stupid shit some schools come up with I don't support their requirement to either.

    11. Re:Who needed help here? by gweihir · · Score: 1

      Funny study done a while ago (lost the reference, sorry): These "electro-sensitive" people cannot distinguish wireless routers going full power from empty cases with LEDs set to simulate it being an active wireless router.

      The condition is real, but it is a psychological one, no connection to actual EM activity.

      --
      Most ACs are not even worth the keystrokes to insult them. Be generically insulted by this and ignored otherwise.
    12. Re:Who needed help here? by __aaclcg7560 · · Score: 1

      Skylab was supposed to fall into the ocean southeast of South Africa. It didn't, overshot its re-entry point, and broke up over Australia. Skylab and Salyut 7 broke up over populated areas, and Mir ended up in the ocean.

    13. Re:Who needed help here? by MindStalker · · Score: 1

      Yes, but this is discussing industrial radiation.
      For instance your microwave oven produces 1000 watts of 2.4GZ EF radiation. That bandwidth tends to get absorbed by water rather than traveling straight through it. Your WiFi router on the other hand produces less than 1 watt of WiFi. This is akin to shooting yourself with a laser pointer or touching a LED lightbulb or shooting yourself with an industrial laser or touching a 1000watt lightbulb.

  5. Sensible then not by xxxJonBoyxxx · · Score: 1, Troll

    >> The overall scientific evidence does not support the suggestion that such exposure causes acute symptoms or that some people are able to detect radiofrequency fields.

    OK, I'm with you there.

    >> Nevertheless effective treatments need to be found for these symptoms.

    Now you lost me. So there's no link to reality, but we need to make accommodations and pay benefits (http://www.thestar.com/news/world/2015/09/04/woman-wins-disability-payments-for-wi-fi-allergy.html) anyway because people possess a belief?

    If you really need a treatment, how about a nice backhand slap to the face?

    1. Re:Sensible then not by MindStalker · · Score: 5, Insightful

      I think the point is we need better treatments for mental illnesses. Seeing hallucinations for instance, you can easily say "Well its not there". But the person still needs treatments.

    2. Re:Sensible then not by Pseudonymous+Powers · · Score: 2

      If you really need a treatment, how about a nice backhand slap to the face?

      Only if you take off your watch first!

    3. Re:Sensible then not by Richard_at_work · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Uh, symptoms can be perfectly real while the diagnosis can be at fault - were the fluorescent bulbs in particular parts of the school cycling at a slightly odd frequency causing her to feel ill rather than being affected by wifi? Same symptoms, different diagnosis.

      Someone may be dying of cancer while blaming the devil for their illness - the problem is real and still needs to be treated, while the diagnosis is bollocks.

    4. Re:Sensible then not by Translation+Error · · Score: 1

      There's isn't evidence that exposure causes symptoms. That just means that people experience symptoms are blaming the wrong thing. If someone has a headache and blames it on WiFi, it's reasonable to tell them that's not what's causing their headache. It's not reasonable to tell them that, no, they don't have a headache.

      --
      When someone says, "Any fool can see ..." they're usually exactly right.
    5. Re:Sensible then not by pla · · Score: 1

      If you really need a treatment, how about a nice backhand slap to the face?

      SIT DOWN AND STUDY!

      If you would like more information on my bold new treatments, please send away for this free brochure, entitled, "You can either calm down, or I can pop you in the mouth again." Thank you.

    6. Re:Sensible then not by boristdog · · Score: 1

      My wife complained when I got one of those "high frequency" pest prevention devices to help with a mouse problem.
      She said that it gave her headaches.

      I had left it on the counter and hadn't plugged it in yet.

    7. Re:Sensible then not by RogueyWon · · Score: 5, Interesting

      You mention flickering fluorescent bulbs, but there's another fairly common cause of some of these symptoms you should check out if you ever come across a case like this; high-pitched whines from malfunctioning electronic devices.

      I've both had exposure to this myself (via a crappy power transformer for a router) and come across others suffering from the same issue. Symptoms can include headaches, nausea, dizziness, sleep-loss and, if the exposure goes on for a prolonged period, long-term tinnitus. People's hearing ranges vary, so many people will be unaffected, but children and teenagers are particularly sensitive (though in some cases, as with me, adults remain capable of hearing these noises well into their 30s and 40s).

      It's exactly the same as the theory behind those teenager-repelling "sonic stinger" devices that some shops and malls have deployed (whose use I personally think should be classed as a criminal assault). The sound causes pain to those susceptible to it, while others are oblivious. Most cases I've come across of malfunctioning devices or power-supplies are less immediately noticeable than a sonic stinger, but if you are susceptible, they are impossible to miss over time.

      The good news is that in most cases, once the device has been identified, a quick power-supply swap usually eliminates the problem.

      I'm not saying that this issue is the cause here, but I am of the view that when you hear reports of "Wi-Fi allergies", this is one of the first things you should check for. A lot of Wi-Fi routers, included ISP-supplied ones, ship with cheap and nasty power supplies that are highly prone to this (one batch of Virgin Media routers here in the UK made the news over this issue a few years back).

      Of course, I've also come across people who were claiming to have Wi-Fi allergies who were clearly mentally ill rather than suffering from an external stimulus - there are generally clues in their wider behaviour.

    8. Re:Sensible then not by fullmetal55 · · Score: 1

      There was a study done about this, (multiple ones, double blind studies, etc) that showed no corrolation between wi-fi signals and the ill feeling. only thing that changed was an LED on a wireless router in the room with them.

      It showed that for the vast majority of "sufferers" it was entirely psychosomatic. I'm not sure how people would treat that. I suppose you could give them "pills" to help deal with it. where the pills are sugar pills. I'm pretty sure the placebo effect would work wonders on these patients, since they already have the nocebo effect of wifi causing them illness.

    9. Re:Sensible then not by codeAlDente · · Score: 1

      So you're saying that in this study, there was a real effect for a small minority of sufferers?!? Could you point me to this study?

      --
      He once inserted random mutations into his code, just so he could have the experience of debugging.
    10. Re:Sensible then not by MrLint · · Score: 1

      People are legitimately having symptoms, you can try to treat the symptoms even if its psychosomatic

      The Nocebo effect.
      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/...

    11. Re:Sensible then not by ericloewe · · Score: 1

      No, he's saying they did not respond to actual EM emissions - beyond those of the LED.

    12. Re:Sensible then not by wjcofkc · · Score: 1

      "Nevertheless effective treatments need to be found for these symptoms"

      Perhaps the submitter was thinking along the lines of lithium.

      --
      Brought to you by Carl's Junior.
    13. Re:Sensible then not by Bing+Tsher+E · · Score: 1

      One of the little USB power block chargers that I use plugged into a power strip close to my bed has this problem. You can hear the PWM circuit in it cycling up and down with a faint squeal as it charges my tablet. It's noise caused by loosness in the inductor coil of the power converter. It's a little annoying sometimes but fairly faint.

    14. Re:Sensible then not by Bing+Tsher+E · · Score: 1

      There's a new syndrome for that. Do hurry off to the doctor and get diagnosed. We'll have the chemist dispense some pills for you.

    15. Re:Sensible then not by BVis · · Score: 1

      >WHACK Stop being a simplistic asshole!

      Did it work?

      --
      Never underestimate the power of stupid people in large groups.
    16. Re:Sensible then not by Anonymuous+Coward · · Score: 1

      You mention flickering fluorescent bulbs, but there's another fairly common cause of some of these symptoms you should check out if you ever come across a case like this; high-pitched whines from malfunctioning electronic devices.

      The kind of cellphone chargers used by Nokia (like ac-3) were the worst of all -- I could hear them through closed doors, and it happened to me to wake with nightmares after some cellphone finished charging and the adapter started its whining.

      All switching-mode power supply designs generate some kind of annoying whine, but even "fast" USB chargers (which are pretty bad in their own way) are unable to match that high-pitch sizzle/whine alternation.

      Fortunately, Nokia's dead now and with it their unique charger designs.

    17. Re:Sensible then not by NostalgiaForInfinity · · Score: 1

      I think the point is we need better treatments for mental illnesses. Seeing hallucinations for instance, you can easily say "Well its not there". But the person still needs treatments.

      What does "needs treatment" mean? Are you going to strap her down and force various drugs into her? Lock her up? Are you going to do that only for unscientific beliefs in "WiFi allergies", or are you going to extend mandatory treatments for mental illness to any belief a panel of experts deems "unscientific"? Think through what you're actually saying!

      If she wants treatment for mental illness, she should get it through her insurance company. But it's pretty clear she doesn't want treatment. At that point, you have no right to impose your beliefs on her; neither do you have an obligation to cater to her delusions. If she wants to avoid exposure to WiFi, she'll have to move.

    18. Re:Sensible then not by NostalgiaForInfinity · · Score: 1

      She is an adult. It's her responsibility to figure out cause and effect, make the right choices, and determine what medical treatments she needs and wants. The choice she made is to blame WiFi, which is silly and should be thrown out of court. Beyond that, nobody else has any obligation or even right to impose medical treatments on her.

    19. Re:Sensible then not by orgelspieler · · Score: 1

      The old 60Hz CRTs would do this to me. Apparently it's pretty common among asthmatics to be able to hear the high pitched whine of a CRT. I could tell from the sound upon entering a room if the TV/monitor was on and just black, or if it was actually off. I used to think I was just crazy, until another nerdy guy had the same problem.

      Also, I found that if I got headaches from looking at a screen (especially if it was mostly white), I could fix it by upping the refresh rate to something that wasn't the same as the frequency of the power grid (or a harmonic thereof). I think it had something to do with the flicker of the lights in the room being in or out of phase with the refresh rate of the screen. Never had the equipment to analyze it better.

      It's not so bad now that flat screens are the norm, although now I find myself needing glasses. Probably just getting too damn old.

      A little further off-topic, but you mention the sonic stinger. Is there any evidence of low frequencies causing similar symptoms? There's a public facility I visit on a regular basis, and their A/C unit causes one of the rooms to rumble at about 4 or 5 Hz. Obviously too low to "hear" but I can feel it when it kicks on, and I get nauseous shortly thereafter. Who knows?

    20. Re:Sensible then not by DutchUncle · · Score: 1

      What if - I know this sounds crazy, but just work with me here - what if someone really has a problem that only shows up in places that *appear* to be connected to dense EM activity? Do we have ways of testing people for unusual sensitivities? - a rhetorical question, because I know the answer is "no", my wife has an unusual allergy which does not show up in the normal tests and is inferred from reactions to three other tests.

    21. Re:Sensible then not by tibit · · Score: 1

      I do low-production-volume power converter designs every once in a while for instrumentation, and these things are all software controlled and any audible frequency components and sidebands are digitally modulated into white noise. You can literally attach a piezo buzzer across the primary inductor and all you'll hear is "ssssssh" of the noise. This is very much acceptable. Prior to that I was getting mentally sick from working with these things at my bench. I'd be hand-winding various inductors and tweaking things with no time to varnish the inductors - they'd be unbearably whiny in classic controller designs if they'd go into discontinuous/burst modes.

      --
      A successful API design takes a mixture of software design and pedagogy.
    22. Re:Sensible then not by Coren22 · · Score: 1

      That noise is caused by the flyback transformer. I doubt the ability to hear it has any correlation to asthma, but it has to do with the range of your hearing, if you can hear extremely high pitched noises, you will be able to pick out a CRT being left on with nothing displaying.

      --
      APK likes to ask for responses to the same things over and over. Maybe he just likes the responses?
    23. Re:Sensible then not by Coren22 · · Score: 1

      The treatment is to disable the LEDs in the Wifi devices, then no more issue.

      --
      APK likes to ask for responses to the same things over and over. Maybe he just likes the responses?
    24. Re:Sensible then not by NormalVisual · · Score: 1

      My wife just tells me I give her headaches. No electronics needed.

      --
      Please stand clear of the doors, por favor mantenganse alejado de las puertas
    25. Re:Sensible then not by Maxo-Texas · · Score: 1

      http://www.popsci.com/science/...

      Magnetism can affect the brain directly.

      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/...

      Various studies have seemed to indicate some sensitivity. Most studies have not. However, some of the major studies had flaws such as only testing for a few minutes per subject.

      Lots of low incidence problems are often put off as in people's heads until a way is discovered to objectively measure the problem (such as the ATP cycle for chronic fatigue).

      I'd look into bad power supplies and other noise creators first but I'm not discounting the possibility it could be electrical fields.

      We run on electricity.
      http://blog.brainfacts.org/201...

      So it's not crazy to think electric fields could interfere with some individuals personal electric fields.

      Fortunately, I'm not one.

      --
      She was like chocolate when she drank... semi-sweet at first and then increasingly bitter.
    26. Re:Sensible then not by Cederic · · Score: 1

      A correctly functioning one, maybe not.

      But one that's started to fail? Shit, you've never seen a fluorescent tube making a 'bzzzzt' sound and flickering?

      Is it so hard to believe that some people can perceive that failure in between 'standard behaviour' and 'will someone replace that fucking light?' ?

    27. Re:Sensible then not by barbariccow · · Score: 1

      My wife just tells me I give her headaches. No electronics needed.

      Strange, she just gives me head, no aches whatsoever.

    28. Re:Sensible then not by Noah+Haders · · Score: 1

      I thought she *was* a teenager. it could have been her mom's j-o-b to seek treatment.

    29. Re:Sensible then not by NostalgiaForInfinity · · Score: 1

      I think the mother is as crazy as the daughter. Obviously, the mother is responsible both for herself and her daughter.

    30. Re:Sensible then not by DrJimbo · · Score: 1

      If she wants treatment for mental illness, she should get it through her insurance company.

      If she wants treatment for mental illness, she should be able to get it through her insurance company. Unfortunately, this is rarely the case in the US.

      --
      We don't see the world as it is, we see it as we are.
      -- Anais Nin
    31. Re:Sensible then not by NostalgiaForInfinity · · Score: 1

      If she wants treatment for mental illness, she should be able to get it through her insurance company. Unfortunately, this is rarely the case in the US.

      Sadly, Obamacare has made mental illness coverage mandatory, meaning that others are now forced to pay for her delusions.

    32. Re:Sensible then not by Jesus_666 · · Score: 1

      A little further off-topic, but you mention the sonic stinger. Is there any evidence of low frequencies causing similar symptoms? There's a public facility I visit on a regular basis, and their A/C unit causes one of the rooms to rumble at about 4 or 5 Hz. Obviously too low to "hear" but I can feel it when it kicks on, and I get nauseous shortly thereafter. Who knows?

      The phenomenon is well known. Human reactions to infrasound include unease, anxiety, sleep disorders and even even a ghost sighting (in a case where the sound almost matched the resonant frequency of the human eye). It varies from person to person but it is possible that that 4-5 Hz rumble causes your nausea. What makes infrasound even more fun: Infrasound that greatly affects some people doesn't affect others much so it's hard to even identify as a problem source.

      --
      USE HOT GRITS WITH STATUE OF NATALIE PORTMAN (NAKED AND PETRIFIED)
    33. Re:Sensible then not by KGIII · · Score: 1

      Prior art, man. We used to do some very mean things to the mentally ill. I did once watch a documentary that concluded, in a part of it, that the mean things didn't do a damned thing for the seriously mentally ill it *did* help those who were less ill mask their symptoms better. I'm still pretty sure that it's not an acceptable form of mental health care - even in America. Instead, we put them in prison and let them abuse one another. We're refined and humane over here.

      --
      "So long and thanks for all the fish."
    34. Re:Sensible then not by KGIII · · Score: 1

      By the same token, there are people who affix such things to their automobiles and have them in their houses. I can tell if I'm in a vehicle with them and I can locate and turn them off if they're hidden. I've also had a 100% success rate telling when they're turned on or off while blindfolded with two separate models and in two different environments. I also hear the high frequency output devices used to thwart teens. I'll add that I'm close enough to where I just call myself 58.

      However, I've been tested and actually *can* hear those frequencies as I've had my hearing tested just a few short years ago. I do have some lower frequencies that I don't hear as well - there's actually a section that I skip and then I resume being able to hear (it's more like feel, I guess) the sound. I actually have worse hearing than I used to have, I've a slight tear in my left ear drum from an ear infection a few years back - which is why I asked to be tested.

      It was normal, for me at least, to hear certain sounds and they suddenly were not there. It turns out that I still hear higher frequencies than most people and certainly more than most people in my age group. We were discussing the anti-loitering devices the last time I brought this up and I seem to recall someone mentioning being at the opposite end of the spectrum and able to hear some very low frequencies and a couple of others who chimed in and mentioned similar things but hadn't been tested recently.

      In your wife's case, well... You can draw your own conclusions.

      --
      "So long and thanks for all the fish."
    35. Re:Sensible then not by orgelspieler · · Score: 1

      I left out that part, sorry. Yes, the correlation is between having asthma and the ability to hear higher frequencies, specifically 12-20 kHz. The study is pretty old ('70s), but I haven't seen anything refuting it (not that I've looked).

    36. Re:Sensible then not by AntronArgaiv · · Score: 1

      If the transformers in the power converter are of high quality, you should not hear anything.

      The audible whine is caused by the alternating magnetic field vibrating the laminated transformer core. Cheap power supplies and flyback transformers would vibrate, quality ones don't.

      Most switching supplies are now using frequencies well above 20 KHz, the technology has changed. Transformers are smaller, too.

  6. In other words... by Richard_at_work · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Daughter kills herself, mother wants to blame everyone but herself.

    If the mother really believed in the condition, why wasn't she home schooling the daughter after the school refused to remove the equipment on a whim? Also, what the hell did they do about their neighbours etc and why did the daughter have a mobile phone?! Did the creators of the 802.11 spec magically choose the single frequency that affected this girl, among all the billions of others?

    1. Re:In other words... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Yeah, when I read about this in the newspaper, I thought it was rather strange that the girl was texting her friends about her wifi allergy.

    2. Re:In other words... by cfalcon · · Score: 1

      I mean, they are on different bands. If you think the idea of a wifi allergy is realistic, it wouldn't necessarily extend to all radiation- she's not allergic to 3G, obviously. People who have these nonsense allergies are experiencing real symptoms, they just aren't caused physically by the wifi (or whatever).

    3. Re:In other words... by Nidi62 · · Score: 4, Funny

      I have invented the perfect cure for those suffering from EHS. I have a patented procedure in which I take bottles of pure water and expose each of them to very precise amounts of electromagnetic radiation. The device for this uses only natural electromagnetic radiation and focuses it to ensure that the treatment is healthy and all natural. Each bottle is exposed for an increased amount of time, and the patient drinks each bottle starting from the lowest level and increasing from there. Through this process the body is able to build up a tolerance to electromagnetic radiation and will alleviate the symptoms of this horrible disease. And each treatment can be had for the low price of only $100 per 16oz bottle.

      --
      The only thing necessary for evil to triumph is for it to be pitted against a slightly greater evil
    4. Re:In other words... by codeAlDente · · Score: 1

      Homeopathy beat you to it.

      --
      He once inserted random mutations into his code, just so he could have the experience of debugging.
    5. Re:In other words... by Nidi62 · · Score: 1

      Homeopathy beat you to it.

      It's modeled after homeopathy, but for electromagnetic waves. Basically, I was talking about putting bottle of water next to a radio tuned to static for an hour. I'll be rich!

      --
      The only thing necessary for evil to triumph is for it to be pitted against a slightly greater evil
    6. Re:In other words... by ericloewe · · Score: 1

      800MHz-2000MHz is not very different from 2400MHz.

    7. Re:In other words... by solidraven · · Score: 1

      You have no idea how stupid your statement sounds from a physical point of view. - Your not so friendly Electrical Engineer

    8. Re:In other words... by jabuzz · · Score: 1

      Home schooling in the United Kingdom is way and I mean *WAY* more difficult that in the USA. If you are not a qualified teacher you are onto a no hopper to begin with because you will have to be inspected by Ofsted and you will fail otherwise. By the time you get to secondary school level meet the curriculum requirements is nigh on impossible for home schooling.

    9. Re:In other words... by Bing+Tsher+E · · Score: 1

      Children belong to the state, and will be subjected to the appropriate Alpha/Beta/Gamma/Epsilon conditioning as deemed proper by professionals. Don't be an Unmutual citizen and resist this inevitability. We have the social harmony of all of society to maintain!

    10. Re:In other words... by dgatwood · · Score: 2

      Not sure why you say that. We're reasonably certain that these so-called Wi-fi "allergies" are completely bogus. However, if they were real, the most likely cause would be a feedback loop of neurons amplifying a signal, in which the length of some portion of that loop was of the right length to tune a particular frequency. So if a Wi-Fi allergy could actually exist, then it almost certainly would be frequency-sensitive. But again, Wi-Fi allergy claims consistently fail to stand up to testing, making the discussion moot.

      --

      Check out my sci-fi/humor trilogy at PatriotsBooks.

    11. Re:In other words... by Fire_Wraith · · Score: 1

      It's actually similar to the way they treat regular allergies. By starting with a minute dose, and slowly increasing it over time, they help the patient build up a tolerance to whatever substance they're allergic to (pollen, grass, animal dander, etc). It's usually administered by a shot though, at a particular point in the arm, in case of an adverse reaction - swelling on your arm is a lot less dangerous than internal swelling of your throat.

      Not that it matters of course, since he'd be selling snake oil to delusional people, but...

    12. Re:In other words... by Bender0x7D1 · · Score: 1

      My method is even easier... Take a bottle of regular water and pour it on your electronics. Problem solved!

      --
      Reading code is like reading the dictionary - you have to read half of it before you can go back and understand it.
    13. Re:In other words... by cfalcon · · Score: 1

      I dunno, they seem different enough to any device created to distinguish them.

    14. Re:In other words... by cfalcon · · Score: 1

      Err, hold on. You think the idea of a radio allergy is compelling, but not one of a wifi specific allergy? If you take it on the square, you'd expect that the radio is somehow interacting in a harmful way with the person, but the frequency doesn't matter? Why apply the second condition? I mean, if you had a physical explanation ("the radio waves create small amounts of heat where they wouldn't be, and therefore the frequency doesn't matter within the spectrum of things that are absorbed similarly by the human body"), then you could claim that. But could you really not come up with some imagined reason why the frequency isn't important? Given that all reasons here are imaginary.

    15. Re:In other words... by johannesg · · Score: 1

      Because to a-technical people, "wifi" is something completely different from "telephone". They simply don't know both are a form of radio, and if someone told them most likely wouldn't believe it anyway.

    16. Re:In other words... by cfalcon · · Score: 2

      > We're reasonably certain that these so-called Wi-fi "allergies" are completely bogus.

      No, we are sure that they are not related to wifi or radio. The symptoms experienced by these people are completely real. If you put them in a room that they believe has active wifi, they will experience symptoms. Put them in a room that they believe does not have active wifi, they will not experience symptoms. Some of the symptoms you can verify the existence of materially. But of course, it has nothing to do with whether there is any goddamned wifi or not.

      I completely concur that any number of hypothesized mechanisms could exist that care about frequency, and any number that do not. I don't think the 3G comment was helpful for that reason- it assumes that she "really" thinks she has a "radio allergy" (and omg pls don't spread that meme around or we'll have a bunch more sick with some nocebo disease), and then mocks that. A tribesman might get sick when a witch doctor curses him but not a priest- but it's not because he's pretending or anything, nor is he failing to notice some scientific commonality about religious-wizards or whatever.

    17. Re:In other words... by Nidi62 · · Score: 1

      Hell, just put it outside in the sun. Can't get much more 'natural' than the life giving radiation from our local fusion chain reaction.

      But everyone know the sun causes skin cancer. You don't want cancer in your water/medicine, do you?

      --
      The only thing necessary for evil to triumph is for it to be pitted against a slightly greater evil
    18. Re:In other words... by MrKevvy · · Score: 5, Funny

      Since this therapy is building up a resistance to electromagnetism, you can call it Ohmeopathy.

      My agent should be contacting you shortly to discuss my royalty fee structure. Thank you.

      --
      -- Insert witty one-liner here. --
    19. Re:In other words... by NostalgiaForInfinity · · Score: 1

      I'm allergic to 3G: it is damned slow!

    20. Re:In other words... by orgelspieler · · Score: 1

      Oh. I thought you were just going to leave a case of bottles out in the sun. EM is EM, right?

    21. Re:In other words... by Nidi62 · · Score: 2

      Since this therapy is building up a resistance to electromagnetism, you can call it Ohmeopathy.

      My agent should be contacting you shortly to discuss my royalty fee structure. Thank you.

      You can have 1/1000th of a cent for every dollar I make. It's ok though, it still remembers being a dollar so it's worth just as much.

      --
      The only thing necessary for evil to triumph is for it to be pitted against a slightly greater evil
    22. Re:In other words... by hudsucker · · Score: 1

      Sir, your solution is well intended but is of limited effectiveness because it is a broad spectrum cure.

      I have invented a more effective protocol, where first I test the subject by exposing them to small amounts of various types of electromagnetic signals. The basic Wi-Fi test discriminates between sensitivity to 802.11b, 802.11a, 802.11g, 802.11n and 802.11ac. The premium test will also test sensitivity to various forms of Wi-Fi encryption, channel numbers, jumbo frames, IPsec VPNs, hidden station ids, RADIUS authentication, Windows 10 Wi-Fi Sense, and captive portals.

      Once the test is complete, I can expose the water bottles to the precise, tailored anti-rad treatment for the individual subject. All for the low price of only $500 for the initial basic test and then $50 per treatment. (A treatment course usually runs for 100 weeks, and then monthly maintenance doses for life.)

    23. Re:In other words... by Jason+Levine · · Score: 1

      But the more you dilute his royalty fee over time, the more it is worth. If you pay him $1 spread out over 20 years, he'll be rich beyond measure!

      --
      My sci-fi novel, Ghost Thief, is now available from Amazon.com.
    24. Re:In other words... by angel'o'sphere · · Score: 1

      if you are a good business man perhaps ;D
      But in Europe homeopathic medicals cost close to nothing ... the most expensive part is the bottle and the casing. Of course there are exceptions but this is one of the main reasons why no one goes up against them (and in animal trials they work pretty well).

      --
      Cost free eBook I read (by iBook/Kobo/Amazon/ObookO/Gutenberg etc.): "The Green Odyssey" by Philip Jose Farmer.
    25. Re:In other words... by jandersen · · Score: 1

      Daughter kills herself, mother wants to blame everyone but herself.

      - and a load of sad, heartless wankers feel this is perfect opportunity to sound 'tough'. Did it occur to anybody that we are talking about a family that has been hit by a tragedy? Having a child die for any reason is devastating, but having lost one to suicide is so much worse. I hope you all that you never get to experience that first hand - although you don't deserve this kindness.

    26. Re:In other words... by sacrilicious · · Score: 1

      If the mother really believed in the condition, why wasn't she home schooling the daughter

      This is really NOT a fair point. Regardless of whether the mom was a kook or not, home schooling has huge impacts in the time, money, and socializing domains. There've been times I hated the public school system, and might I add for very good reason... did I home school my kids? No, I've got a job to do and besides I wanted my kids to gain the socialization that comes from being in school. Does that mean I didn't sincerely believe my critiques of the school system? No.

      --
      - First they ignore you, then they laugh at you, then ???, then profit.
    27. Re:In other words... by ericloewe · · Score: 1

      That does not mean their effect is easily distinguishable.

      Red and Blue are different enough to any device created to distinguish them, but their effects are quite similar.

    28. Re:In other words... by cfalcon · · Score: 1

      Interesting you should pick that as an example. Red light doesn't hurt your night vision as much as multispectrum light, and blue light suppresses melatonin much more than lower energy wavelengths.

      http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pu...

      Additionally, if you are a photodiode, you could generate energy from the blue, but the red could be below your bandgap.

      So their effects are quite similar at heating a black body, but have different effects based on the material absorbing them- and very different effects on the human organism, which uses them as input for certain important biological decisions.

      Again- if you are willing to grant that radio waves can cause some effect, it's no leap at all to suppose that the effect would be frequency dependent.

    29. Re:In other words... by cfalcon · · Score: 1

      > Studies show that if you put folks that exhibit these symptoms in a room with no wifi, but say there is, they exhibit symptoms. So it's placebo effect, or version thereof.

      Studies show you didn't bother to even read my post. Also it would be a nocebo effect. Also that isn't really important in any way- the symptoms are real, after all. The fact that it's belief based is of course true.

    30. Re:In other words... by cfalcon · · Score: 1

      > an intense EMF field

      Well, studies show that viewing a stove doesn't make your skin itch, but once I put my finger briefly on a hot stove burner and my skin got all red.

      Totally different effects. No one is talking about an intense EMF. It's not outside the realm of science that radio waves could mess someone up, but the point is regarding wifi allergies that they are demonstrated to change with the BELIEF about the wifi being present, not the physical thing.

      Also it's EMF or EM Field. Unless it really was a field of electromagnetic fields :P

    31. Re:In other words... by JonnyCalcutta · · Score: 2

      Sorry, that sounds convincing since we're a nation of whipped puppies, but its not true. You don't have to follow the national curriculum - https://www.gov.uk/home-educat... (and I'm fairly sure you don't have to be inspected by Ofsted).

    32. Re:In other words... by omnichad · · Score: 1

      Did you read the important part?

      different enough to any device created to distinguish them

      The eyes are the device created to distinguish them. Unless you think the light affects the skin to cause these effects.

    33. Re:In other words... by Noah+Haders · · Score: 1

      *drops mike*

    34. Re:In other words... by Ol+Olsoc · · Score: 1

      I dunno, they seem different enough to any device created to distinguish them.

      I have devices that distinguish less than 1 Hz difference. It doesn't make every frequency complately different from every other.

      In general the region from 800 MHz to 2.4 GHZ acts farily similar. Propagation effects are more likely at the lower end, the higher end has higher path loss but they are both line of sight as far as reception is concerned, and for most purposes the same.

      So unless there is some resonance effect going on at some specific frequency, it's almost the same.

      NOte that as well, there is a huge difference between bing in th efar field of a wireless router and the near field of a wireless phone. This is exacerbated when in a marginal coverage area, because the phone increases it's output to compensate for the path loss. So if she was actually allergic, she would be getting a huge dose of EM radiation when she held the phone ot her ear. IOW if the girl was actually allergic to UHF EM radiation, she should never have been anywhere near a cell phone. But really, she wasn't allergic. Just a rather odd thinking mother who is afraid of things she cannot see. As I noted before, someone should tell her that Thunderstorms generate Gamma Rays - they do. She'll freak.

      --
      The shepherds did so well protecting the flock that the sheep no longer believed that wolves existed.
    35. Re:In other words... by Ol+Olsoc · · Score: 1

      if you are willing to grant that radio waves can cause some effect, it's no leap at all to suppose that the effect would be frequency dependent.

      It was a bad example he gave. But I am willing to grant whatever uyou want by a good description of the physical effect differnces between 800 MHz and 2.4 Ghz.

      I gave one in another reply, show me the errors of my way, and also give a good reason why someone would have a devastating reaction to one but absolutely no reaction to the other? In other words, I'm looking for the proof that placing one's head in the near field of a smartphone has 0 effect, but in teh farfield of a wifi has an effect so great as to completely destroy the health of a person - to the extent they look at suicide as a proper solution.

      --
      The shepherds did so well protecting the flock that the sheep no longer believed that wolves existed.
    36. Re:In other words... by FrodoOfTheShire · · Score: 1

      I'm a Parent that had two terminally ill children. I attended a lot of grief counselling groups. What you find is that the people at these groups always want to find a reason for why their loved one died. They often want justice for the lost family member. That is why 80 percent of marriages don't usually survive the death of a child, because one parent tends to blame the other for the loss. This situation is not different, the mother wants to assign blame to someone/something as a way to come to terms with her loss. She is wrong and ignorant regarding the effects of WiFi, but she should be pitied.

    37. Re:In other words... by Ol+Olsoc · · Score: 1

      Not sure why you say that. We're reasonably certain that these so-called Wi-fi "allergies" are completely bogus. However, if they were real, the most likely cause would be a feedback loop of neurons amplifying a signal, in which the length of some portion of that loop was of the right length to tune a particular frequency. So if a Wi-Fi allergy could actually exist, then it almost certainly would be frequency-sensitive. But again, Wi-Fi allergy claims consistently fail to stand up to testing, making the discussion moot.

      Oh - well then all you need is a necklace of amethyst crystals interlaced with polished hematite. Takes care of those 2.4 GHz feedback loops with the natural harmonic energies of the universe. Looks good too!

      --
      The shepherds did so well protecting the flock that the sheep no longer believed that wolves existed.
    38. Re:In other words... by cfalcon · · Score: 1

      I bet if I googled for a few hours, I could find some ludicrous correlation. Like, "oh, the size of this molecule, which is in DNA, is similar to a multiple of the wavelength" or some horse shit. The point is that if you find the idea that she can be allergic to radio waves in miniscule flux compelling, then you should find the idea that she's allergic to a certain FREQUENCY compelling too, via the same logic.

      And no, no one should tell any of these nocebo sufferers any random bullshit like gamma rays from thunderstorms, or radioactivity from flight, or any other thing. These people are sick enough, and no one knows how to cure them. We need like a shaman to cast a protective blessing on them or some fucking shit. Sell them a crystal with some fun microscopic pattern and claim that because the number of molecules per structure element is a prime number or evenly divides the wavelength in yards or something, that they are protected. They are suffering under a bullshit belief system that they didn't consciously choose. And even if you believe that everyone should be rational enough to not suffer from this shit (again, an unproven correlation, but likely), do you really hold a minor responsible? Her head isn't developed enough to legally drive without supervision or vote, how can you expect her to have deprogrammed herself of the pieces of society that tie into your body in ways we don't even fully understand yet?

      Hand out magic crystals or have a priest bless her or a monk say her name under a fountain. I dunno.

    39. Re:In other words... by Richard_at_work · · Score: 1

      With all due respect, go fuck yourself. We have a right to criticise this woman for her public comments and beliefs, and in this case its very obvious she is clutching at external reasons for the suicide when there were lots of things she could have done differently to molly coddle the kid.

    40. Re:In other words... by jandersen · · Score: 1

      With all due respect, go fuck yourself.

      I don't think I need your respect - you probably don't have much of it. I do, however, assume the same right to offer up my opinion in a public forum, mr "richardprice@[ ]il.com ['gma' in gap]". Did I in any respect attempt to restrict your right to spill your foul mouth? But it is possible to point out the flaws in somebody's logic without being a heartless, callous prick, bent on kicking another human in obvious distress. And anyway - since you seem to think that behaviour is OK, you shouldn't whine when you get a well deserved bruising yourself.

    41. Re:In other words... by Ol+Olsoc · · Score: 1

      And even if you believe that everyone should be rational enough to not suffer from this shit (again, an unproven correlation, but likely), do you really hold a minor responsible? Her head isn't developed enough to legally drive without supervision or vote, how can you expect her to have deprogrammed herself of the pieces of society that tie into your body in ways we don't even fully understand yet?

      Hand out magic crystals or have a priest bless her or a monk say her name under a fountain. I dunno.

      I don't hold a minor responsible - now her mother? Maybe, maybe not. If she was just some poor deluded soul with an offspring with a problem, that's one thing. If she is somoene like the Christian Scientists - Newspeak or biggest irony ever - refusing treatments that would easily heal - then I have much blame to hand out.

      --
      The shepherds did so well protecting the flock that the sheep no longer believed that wolves existed.
    42. Re:In other words... by solidraven · · Score: 1

      Yeah, because the 3G bands in terms of wavelengths are completely unrelated to human body dimensions and absorption peaks of common chemicals in the human body. (Hence my statement that it was stupid to use 3G as example.) If anything I'd say the FM radio has the most chance of causing harm, the wavelength is in the right spot vs. the average human's length and limb size. Anyway consider the transmitted power vs. absorption/dielectric properties vs. energy required for biochemical reactions to take place and you'll realise how idiotic this entire concept is. I'm going to agree sitting next to a high power transmitter is a very bad idea, but a WiFi router isn't going to kill you in any reasonable frequency band with the transmitted power it has.

    43. Re:In other words... by dgatwood · · Score: 1

      3G has a wavelength of a little over six inches, by my math. If you want to talk about effects on brain tissue, that's about the width of your skull, and a half-wave antenna would be about the width of one hemisphere. You're right that it is ridiculously unlikely, but if it were possible for low-power EM to have a noticeable effect on human physiology, it would probably occur up in the GHz range, not in the FM range, where a full wave antenna is over ten feet long.

      --

      Check out my sci-fi/humor trilogy at PatriotsBooks.

    44. Re:In other words... by solidraven · · Score: 1

      Did we forget about half and quarter wave?

      The issue with considering > GHz radiation's effects are the dielectric parameters of the human body... You'd have to stick your head against the WiFi router for any measurable signal to penetrate deep enough to cause the described effects, or to be more correct the WiFi antenna would have to pierce your skull. But the moment we start using WiFi antennas as crossbow bolts we have other issues arising I fear. But the FM band is favourable because the corrected half wavelength is about the length of a human; Additionally the dielectric parameters in this frequency range are far more favourable combined with multi-kW transmitted power vs. mW.

    45. Re:In other words... by rhodium_mir · · Score: 1

      Now Mike is injured. Expected healing time at least TWO DAYS.

      --
      You can't spell "oneiromancy" without "roman".
  7. I have the opposite problem by JoeyRox · · Score: 5, Funny

    Whenever my WiFi goes down I feel sad and depressed.

    1. Re:I have the opposite problem by Flavianoep · · Score: 1

      I guess there is more scientific basis to support a causation in that!

      --
      Linux is for people who don't mind RTFM.
    2. Re:I have the opposite problem by PPH · · Score: 2

      That's odd. When my WiFi goes down, everyone else seems to get happier.

      --
      Have gnu, will travel.
    3. Re:I have the opposite problem by Trailer+Trash · · Score: 4, Funny

      Whenever my WiFi goes down I feel sad and depressed.

      Yeah, you need to save some porn to your hard drive to get you through those times.

    4. Re:I have the opposite problem by swb · · Score: 4, Interesting

      You joke, I know, but perhaps this is really some social situation that nobody knows about, some kind of cyberbullying that she was exposed to that gave her such emotional anxiety that it produced physical symptoms.

      The "wifi" connection could have been that the bullying was most intense where the people doing the bullying were together and had good network connectivity, which turned out to be at school.

      Perhaps mom was never aware of it or daughter never was able to consciously face it, and once the anxiety and pain could be transferred to blaming the wifi signals, the daughter and the mom made that their focus and whatever was the real cause got buried or forgotten.

      Obviously this is just a guess, but there has to be some other explanation besides EMF.

    5. Re:I have the opposite problem by Bing+Tsher+E · · Score: 1

      How would you know? You can't search around on the forums you troll to see who you've trolled if your WiFi is down? Or do you resort to using your cellular connection as necessary to maintain the proper level of dischord?

    6. Re:I have the opposite problem by Bob+the+Super+Hamste · · Score: 1

      It at least has some basis in reality.

      --
      Time to offend someone
    7. Re:I have the opposite problem by liquidsin · · Score: 1

      correlation =/= causation. maybe the wifis are down *because* you're sad.

      --
      do not read this line twice.
    8. Re:I have the opposite problem by Jason+Levine · · Score: 4, Funny

      Last night, I thought my wife was asleep and I went about upgrading our router's firmware. Turns out she was watching Hulu. I can confirm that my wife also suffers from a Lack-of-Wifi allergy. No WiFi made her really cranky. I think it's contagious too because the longer the router was down (I encountered difficulties bringing it back up after the firmware upgrade), the crankier I got as well. All of the symptoms went away once the router worked again and the WiFi came back on.

      --
      My sci-fi novel, Ghost Thief, is now available from Amazon.com.
    9. Re:I have the opposite problem by radarskiy · · Score: 2

      You don't have redundant network infrastructure? What kind of a monster are you?

    10. Re:I have the opposite problem by Baron_Yam · · Score: 2

      I know, right? My only non-redundant point of failure is the DSL modem, and I have a couple of cold standbys configured.

      I kind of wish I was kidding about that, honestly.

    11. Re:I have the opposite problem by suutar · · Score: 1

      I have two WAPs, but they're daisy-chained, not redundant. I should see if I can get them both to talk to the cablemodem; I think it's got enough ports.

      Do you know if there's a website with good instructions on how to do a real redundant setup? When I got the second wap I tried to make them independent but ran into "Not gonna share the network" issues.

    12. Re:I have the opposite problem by Baron_Yam · · Score: 1

      Most WAPs let you set the channel, but they also usually have a pretty good 'auto' setting that gets the job done.

      I wouldn't put them right next to each other, though. You'll get interference. Instead, set them equidistant from the center of the area you want to cover, in opposite directions and as far apart as you can while getting good coverage in the area you want.

      I have mine at opposite ends of my house and on different floors.

      But in terms of cabling, there just isn't much difference between daisy chaining them and having them independently cabled back to your primary switch or router... except you're passing the second WAP through what is likely a simple hub on the first WAP. This of course kills the second device if the first fails.

  8. Denial by ilsaloving · · Score: 1

    No, it has to be the Wi-Fi. It couldn't possibly have been the fact that the mother was a psychotic idiot who made her daughters life a living hell.

  9. wifi allergy? by steak · · Score: 2

    are wifi allergies this decades morgellans?

    1. Re:wifi allergy? by Noah+Haders · · Score: 2

      i dont know what those are.

  10. Re:Already done by Big+Hairy+Ian · · Score: 2

    "effective treatments need to be found for these symptoms."

    What do they do for other hypochondriacs?

    Stick them in hospitals full of sick people so that they can migrate to paranoia.

    --

    Build a Man a Fire, and He'll Be Warm for a Day. Set a Man on Fire, and He'll Be Warm for the Rest of His Life.

  11. Tin hat by shuz · · Score: 1

    Sadly, this mother should have had invested in a tin hat. She should have also removed all cellular phones form the house, wrapped it in a Faraday cage, and removed any televisions, vacuum cleaners, microwave ovens, computers, really anything with an inductor. In addition I would suggest that she consider joining an Amish community. I won't argue with her that large amounts of electro-magnetic energy can not affect the brain. However to call it an allergy, where the body attacks itself due to an external irritant seems a bit far fetched. I think she would have a stronger case to say that her daughters brain formed a mutation or had a neurological pathway blocked in someway due to EMF to cause severe depression.

    --
    There is or can be built a machine that can simulate any physical object. -Church-Turing principle
    1. Re:Tin hat by Flavianoep · · Score: 1
      --
      Linux is for people who don't mind RTFM.
    2. Re:Tin hat by gaudior · · Score: 1

      That one causes skin cancer.

    3. Re:Tin hat by Kozar_The_Malignant · · Score: 1

      That one causes skin cancer.

      Also radiation burns if you lay out in its rays long enough.

      --
      Some mornings it's hardly worth chewing through the restraints to get out of bed.
  12. Convenient blame bandwagon by Coisiche · · Score: 1

    Despite there being no supporting evidence, this seems to be a favourite thing to blame at the moment. And while it's easy to disregard this as nonsense we have a woman who is clearly upset over losing her daughter. Perhaps there is not a shred of scientific evidence over WiFi being a cause but there was obviously something very real causing her daughter distress and she would be better campaigning for _that_ to be properly investigated.

    1. Re:Convenient blame bandwagon by Zontar+The+Mindless · · Score: 2

      Yeah, this looks to be an emerging circle-jerk not unlike those found amongst the vaccine and chemtrails nutters.

      --
      Il n'y a pas de Planet B.
    2. Re:Convenient blame bandwagon by Dog-Cow · · Score: 1

      It's quite likely the mother would find the cause of her daughter's distress in any handy mirror.

    3. Re:Convenient blame bandwagon by Xest · · Score: 1

      Some years back, Panorama, perhaps the worst TV show the BBC has ever insisted on continuing to make did one of it's drivel episodes as it does on exactly this topic.

      As is usual for Panorama, it spread some crock of shit about how in Finland or wherever it was a real recognised issue and you could get help for it, so asked the question why that's not the case here? That would be great if it were actually true, because at the time Finland had actually said that it WASN'T a real thing and removed it from it's official list of recognised problems you can get state help for.

      I was working in IT at the time, supporting schools, and Panorama suggested schools should consider shutting down their WiFi, so we spent the next few weeks firefighting requests about whether we needed to disable wifi at all 170 schools we supported from the head teachers. One such teacher even magically developed symptoms after hearing all about this and started taking lots of sick leave because of it, which I'm sure was fantastic for him until we quietly disabled wifi and confirmed no other wifi signals in the area for 3 days whilst he continued to complain of symptoms before the head informed him that there wasn't even any wifi for him to get sick from and eventually managed to fire him for the fact he'd been taking time off ill based on lies.

      So it's possible the cause of this problem was this mother believing a lie filled episode of Panorama all those years ago. Given that I myself have seen Panorama's bullshit cause no end of real trouble, I wouldn't be surprised if it was also the cause of this mother believing such bullshit also had she been feeding her daughter the idea that she's had this since a young age (when the program must've been broadcast in what, 2006 or something?).

      If this is the case, it would be nice to see the BBC finally reprimanded for showing such a non-factual lie filled episode that caused real actual damage to companies and individuals lives alike. Panorama is basically the BBC's answer to The Daily Mail and given that every time it's made an episode on something I do no about like is wifi safe, or is minecraft killing your children etc. and it's been clearly full of shit, I now simply assume that it's telling me a load of shit on topics I don't know anything about too.

  13. Cell phone? by AntronArgaiv · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Yet the article says she texted friends. A cell phone is much more powerful than wifi...

    Sad. But probably not caused by wifi.

    1. Re:Cell phone? by angel'o'sphere · · Score: 1

      Wrong: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/...

      DECT is is a bid stronger than Wifi, and Wifi is nearly twice as strong than a G3 mobile, actually a no brainer.

      --
      Cost free eBook I read (by iBook/Kobo/Amazon/ObookO/Gutenberg etc.): "The Green Odyssey" by Philip Jose Farmer.
    2. Re:Cell phone? by jimbolauski · · Score: 1

      Clearly she was just allergic to 2400, 3600, and 5000 MHz frequencies not 700, 750, 800, 850, 1700, 1900, 2100, 2300, 2500, or 2600MHz frequencies from cell phones.

      --
      Knowledge = Power
      P= W/t
      t=Money
      Money = Work/Knowledge so the less you know the more you make
    3. Re:Cell phone? by Bruce+Perens · · Score: 1

      A cell phone is actually much more powerful than WiFi as far as the human exposure is concerned, because most users hold it to their heads. Because of the inverse-square law, it's going to be more powerful than the WiFi in your laptop, the WiFi base station, or indeed anything that's not held to your head.

    4. Re:Cell phone? by whoever57 · · Score: 1

      A cell phone is actually much more powerful than WiFi as far as the human exposure is concerned, because most users hold it to their heads.

      You are showing your age. Haven't you seen how the younger generations use cellphones today? Using them to make calls is very rare.

      --
      The real "Libtards" are the Libertarians!
    5. Re:Cell phone? by Bruce+Perens · · Score: 1

      I have a 15-year-old and am well aware of young people's usage patterns. While texting, etc., you are holding the phone and the antenna is directly against your hand and relatively close to your head. In contrast, a laptop generally has the antenna at the top of the display and is held at a greater distance.

      Although they don't happen as often as they did in my generation, my 15-year-old does make long voice calls.

  14. I blame bad genes... by paulpach · · Score: 1

    Because the daughter obviously has precedent of mental illness in her immediate family.

  15. Re:Hypocrisy much? by MindStalker · · Score: 1

    No its specifically an allergy to packet routed network systems only. They also have to be in the range of 2.4GZ or 5Gz.
    The 0.8 - 1.9GZ range used my mobile carriers obviously aren't going to have any effect. Now we definitely need to avoid anything in the 430,000GZ-750,000GZ range which are obviously lethal dosages (visible light spectrum)

  16. Familiar story for my family, alas. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Interesting

    Someone in my extended family had severe bipolar disorder which included hallucinations. As she became better medicated, she tried her best to grasp the difference between reality and what was going on in her bastard brain. Know what didn't help, though? Her mother upholding the belief that she had some sort of mystical connection to spirits. I couldn't give a fuck whether people have woowoo beliefs, but surely even someone engaged in woowoo understands that it is possible to be mentally ill, and for any hallucinations to be completely and merely the product of a faulty brain? God damn fucking "I want to believe" wins out every time, though, doesn't it?

    Anyway, this wonderful person died by suicide last year. It wasn't BECAUSE of the above, as suicide is a complex fucking thing and it's extremely rare that one person's action/inaction is to blame for what is essentially a fatal symptom of an illness. But it didn't help.

    1. Re:Familiar story for my family, alas. by Jason+Levine · · Score: 1

      While I don't have depression or any other medically diagnosed condition, I can sympathize with having a daily battle with your brain. Mine seems determined to convince me that nobody likes/loves me, that I stink at everything I do, and that everything that goes wrong is somehow my fault. I fight it back the best I can, but my brain is relentless. Some days I beat it back and others I sink into misery over the world hating me so much.

      Now what I have is extremely minor compared to what other people have to deal with. I don't know how people with those conditions deal with it. (Not only with the condition, but the people who inevitably tell them "well, you should just smile and you'll stop being depressed!")

      --
      My sci-fi novel, Ghost Thief, is now available from Amazon.com.
    2. Re:Familiar story for my family, alas. by david_thornley · · Score: 1

      You are displaying signs of depression. See somebody about it. At the very least, get a copy of the book "Feeling Good" (can't remember the author) about cognitive therapy for depression. The author seems to dismiss antidepressants as a cure, but I recommend talking to a psychiatrist and seeing if they might be right for you.

      As far as those of us with more severe depression cope, we usually find ways (including suicide, unfortunately). I'm not in very good touch with my feelings, for example, and I figure there'd be at least a 30% chance I'd have killed myself if I couldn't distance myself from my emotions. I've also found that finding a specific reason to live can be helpful (currently, it's my family; earlier it was the idea that suicide would be losing).

      Note: This is not a complaint. Different people have different problems, some of them worse than my problem with depression. I'm not asking for pity, because I don't want it and it doesn't do any good anyway.

      --
      "When you have eliminated the unacceptable, whatever is left, however improbable, must be the truthiness" - Holmes
  17. Satanic Panic all over again by taustin · · Score: 1

    Am I the only one flashing back to Pat Pulling and the whole "Dungeons & Dragons is evil and causes suicide" bullshit? When Pat Pulling's claims of D&D suicides was researched it was found that in most of the cases she cited, no death occurred, and in some cases, they were fictional people.

    In fact, of the actual suicides that could be identified, there was a far closer correlation between having parents who were religious wingnuts any reasonable person would rather die than live with than with playing D&D.

    1. Re:Satanic Panic all over again by Chrisq · · Score: 2

      When Pat Pulling's claims of D&D suicides was researched it was found that in most of the cases she cited, no death occurred, and in some cases, they were fictional people.

      In

      I can concur, playing D&D does result in the death of many fictitious people

    2. Re:Satanic Panic all over again by Fire_Wraith · · Score: 1

      But if you play the WiFi signals backwards while playing D&D over the internet, it clearly spells out satanic messages. My friends used to play until their youth pastor showed them that the signals contained hexadecimal (clearly a satanic term, linked to hexagrams) messages containing words like Dead, Feed, and Beef, among all the numbers, which included at least one instance that clearly read AC132516, which seems innocuous until you realize that 1+3+2=6 and 5+1 =6, so it really reads AC666 or Anti-Christ 666!

      (/sarc)

    3. Re:Satanic Panic all over again by SuiteSisterMary · · Score: 5, Funny

      Everybody knows that the wifi protocol was defined in RFC-666. They'll tell you that RFC stands for 'request for comment,' but we know it stands for 'Refuse the Father and Christ.'

      Use this handy chart to decode what YOUR kids are REALLY saying:

      • LOL - Lucifer our Lord
      • YOLO - Youth Obeying Lucifer's Orders
      • SWAG - Satan's Wishes Are Granted
      • ROFL - Rise, Our Father Lucifer
      • BRB - Beelzebub Rules Below
      • WTF - Worship The Fallen

      Don't even get me started on Monster Energy drinks.

      --
      Vintage computer games and RPG books available. Email me if you're interested.
    4. Re:Satanic Panic all over again by Jason+Levine · · Score: 1

      Everyone knows D&D doesn't cause death. It's dice that causes death!

      --
      My sci-fi novel, Ghost Thief, is now available from Amazon.com.
    5. Re:Satanic Panic all over again by zawarski · · Score: 1

      Tell that to Robbie Wheeling!

    6. Re:Satanic Panic all over again by david_thornley · · Score: 1

      Hey, I've had lots of fictional characters die due to D&D. They generally didn't commit suicide, unless you consider deliberately going somewhere where there are strong aggressive monsters suicide.

      IIRC, somebody once took all the reports of D&D-related suicides, got a decent estimate of the number of people playing, and found that that suicide rate was less than that normal for their age group. Unfortunately, teenagers commit suicide more frequently than people think.

      --
      "When you have eliminated the unacceptable, whatever is left, however improbable, must be the truthiness" - Holmes
  18. 802.11D by bobstreo · · Score: 1

    There is/was an 802.11D. The D doesn't appear to refer to Death.

  19. In A World ... by DakotaSmith · · Score: 1

    ... where people think common, everyday contrails are the government spraying all of North America with chemicals, why should anyone be surprised when someone believes more BS?

    The truly tragic part is that whatever this girl had, it wouldn't have been treated had you put her inside a Faraday Cage.

    You know, maybe I should develop a portable Faraday Cage. It would need to be collapsible and a little larger than a person sitting when deployed. Then, when deployed, it would cover a person sitting in their seat, with special arm holes.

    I could make a mint off the tinfoil hat types.

    --
    Microsoft leads to Bluescreen; Bluescreen leads to downtime; downtime leads to suffering.
    1. Re:In A World ... by Bob+the+Super+Hamste · · Score: 1

      Hell they already make little popup hunting blinds that could probably be fitted with a wire mesh instead of fabric. You could sell them for $500 each and not have to figure out how to build such a thing.

      --
      Time to offend someone
    2. Re:In A World ... by Locke2005 · · Score: 1

      "Portable" and "needs to be grounded" are sort of conflicting constraints...

      --
      I've abandoned my search for truth; now I'm just looking for some useful delusions.
    3. Re:In A World ... by Ungrounded+Lightning · · Score: 1

      "Portable" and "needs to be grounded" are sort of conflicting constraints...

      A Faraday cage doesn't need to be grounded unless you want to stop an outbound DC electric field. For AC and for inbound fields it's just fine floating.

      On the other hand, armholes are over a quarter wavelength for even the 2.4 GHz WiFi low band. The product would need something like integrated chain-mail or knit-wire gloves.

      --
      Bantam Dominique roosters crow a four-note song. Once you've heard it as "Happy BIRTHday" you can't NOT hear it that way
    4. Re:In A World ... by tibit · · Score: 1

      A Faraday Cage does not need to be grounded. There's no such thing as "ground" at 2.4GHz anyway.

      --
      A successful API design takes a mixture of software design and pedagogy.
    5. Re:In A World ... by DakotaSmith · · Score: 1

      You're forgetting that I'd be selling a pointless to technological luddites.

      The placebo effect alone would sell it.

      --
      Microsoft leads to Bluescreen; Bluescreen leads to downtime; downtime leads to suffering.
    6. Re:In A World ... by DakotaSmith · · Score: 1

      Again, a pointless device sold to technological luddites.

      This is a non-problem. There is nothing that will help.

      Might was well make a few bucks off the marks. ;)

      --
      Microsoft leads to Bluescreen; Bluescreen leads to downtime; downtime leads to suffering.
    7. Re:In A World ... by Jason+Levine · · Score: 1

      I wondered whether such a thing already exists (the Internet seemingly has everything) so I did a quick search. I didn't find a portable Faraday cage, but I did find SharkSkin Covert Electromagnetic Trilaminate Dive Hood which claims to "reduces the Human Body's Electric Signal making you Less-Detectable to Underwater Marine Life." I wonder if it would work the other way also: Reduce electromagnetic frequencies entering a human brain.

      Of course, WiFi Allergies are 100% bunk, but it might be an interesting "treatment" for the psychological symptoms. As a bonus, we'll know not to complain about the WiFi being down to people walking around with SharkSkin hoods.

      --
      My sci-fi novel, Ghost Thief, is now available from Amazon.com.
    8. Re:In A World ... by angel'o'sphere · · Score: 1

      Of course, WiFi Allergies are 100% bunk
      How do you know that? Just because you have not found anybody who has objectively one, does not mean countless ones who have such an allergy exist.

      --
      Cost free eBook I read (by iBook/Kobo/Amazon/ObookO/Gutenberg etc.): "The Green Odyssey" by Philip Jose Farmer.
    9. Re:In A World ... by DakotaSmith · · Score: 1

      Well, these people are idiots, so a hood wouldn't do.

      They need a full-body covering. Perhaps a jumpsuit with a hood and face screen? >:)

      --
      Microsoft leads to Bluescreen; Bluescreen leads to downtime; downtime leads to suffering.
    10. Re:In A World ... by DakotaSmith · · Score: 1

      As the OP mentions, there is absolutely no medical evidence that electronic devices are in any way harmful.

      Anyone "suffering" from this "syndrome" is nothing but a hypochondriac with no scientific knowledge whatsoever.

      If they had any scientific knowledge, they'd know that just radiation from natural sources (such as the Sun or the Earth's magnetic field) floods them with more EM in an hour than humans could generate in a lifetime.

      Well, unless you had access to, say, an unshielded particle accelerator ...

      --
      Microsoft leads to Bluescreen; Bluescreen leads to downtime; downtime leads to suffering.
    11. Re:In A World ... by MiniMike · · Score: 1

      A metal Faraday cage would be very heavy. You could probably sell these people one made of wool. Tell them the sheep wore magnetic copper bracelets.

    12. Re:In A World ... by Jason+Levine · · Score: 1

      They make the full body suits also. (I'm guessing electromagnetic nerve pulses could make you detectable to marine life just as much as head-based electromagnetic signals.) So maybe "WiFi allergy sufferers" could wear these suits everywhere.

      --
      My sci-fi novel, Ghost Thief, is now available from Amazon.com.
    13. Re:In A World ... by DakotaSmith · · Score: 1

      Oddly enough, that reminds me of my college days ...

      Ripple flashback.

      Subtitle: Lincoln, Nebraska: 1984

      My best friend was an EE major. Every Sunday, he, two other buddies, and I would get together to play cards and smoke really cheap cigars.

      Both of the other two friends were nuts. They lived across the alley from the local Salvation Army, where they'd go dumpster-diving.

      That's right: they would go looking for crap that not even the Salvation Army could re-sell.

      Well, one day they found a pair of huge concert speakers that were inoperable save for the very large magnets in them. The one crazy guy placed one magnet at the head of his bed and the other at the foot. He believed this would "align the minerals in his body."

      He also found an old ruined lamp. He cut the electrical cord from it, stripped the ends of the wires, and would occasionally plug it into the wall outlet and grab the exposed ends. He'd hang on as long as he could because he thought he could "align the vitamins in his body" via 120V alternating current.

      We called it "home electroshock therapy."

      Then there was the other guy, the first one's roommate. He thought he controlled the weather and streetlights with his mind.

      Well, one night there was a tornado. The first friend, the EE major, happened to be on his bike when it hit and had to dive for the nearest ditch. He emerged unscathed, but he was really rattled for a week after. I think it was one of those moments we all have when we realize we're not immortal after all.

      So the crazy dude who thought he controlled the weather was going on about how he'd created the storm and its accompanying tornado. He was all excited about it, going on about how he was standing in his front yard making all this stuff happen.

      The EE major finally said:

      "Tim, you've got to stop playing God like that! I was almost killed!"

      The crazy friend was taken aback, then apologized profusely. We never attempted to correct him because we were too busy laughing our asses off behind his back.

      I hear that he found religion later in life, and considers his previous use of his "gifts" as Satanic. He consequently does not attempt to control streetlights not the weather any more.

      I guess if you're crazy ... hey, whatever works. :)

      --
      Microsoft leads to Bluescreen; Bluescreen leads to downtime; downtime leads to suffering.
    14. Re:In A World ... by angel'o'sphere · · Score: 1

      As the OP mentions, there is absolutely no medical evidence that electronic devices are in any way harmful.

      Anyone "suffering" from this "syndrome" is nothing but a hypochondriac with no scientific knowledge whatsoever.

      The absence of evidence is not the proof of the opposite.

      You say, the OP claimed: there is no evidence. No, he said: it is proven wrong, which it is not.

      So you are both wrong in logical arguing and in even reading and comprehending in each others posts.

      Example (bad example): there are no pink sharks in the oceans. Why? Because evidently we never caught one. Conclusion: pink sharks don't exist. False conclusion ... you can make hundreds of fields studies to find a pink shark and fail. But because you have missed to catch one of the few (or millions?) of pink sharks, you can not conclude: there are non ;D

      It is physically and biologically completely believable and plausible that such 'allergies' exist. Plenty of animals can detect EM radiations on that strength level. Fish can perceive electric fields so low that is pretty difficult to write it in numbers someone grasps here. Eels: 0.000000001 V/cm Hm, not sure if I missed three zeros.

      https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wik...
      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/...

      Imho, in my very humble opinion, it is completely idiotic to assume that amoung 7.5 billion people there is no one who can perceive other peoples fields or artificiale fields, and Wifi or cellular field is a million times stronger! Actually: most old school martial arts teach you how to perceive other humans (fields).

      Anyway, I was only talking about both of yours failures in logic.

      If someone is convinced he suffers from electric fields / emissions and does not simply move elsewhere: evolution is at work. (Not evolution on field perception, but on stupidity).

      --
      Cost free eBook I read (by iBook/Kobo/Amazon/ObookO/Gutenberg etc.): "The Green Odyssey" by Philip Jose Farmer.
  20. Everyone's an MD on the internet! by Sklivvz · · Score: 1

    > "I did some research and found how dangerous Wi-Fi could be"

    No no no no no no...

    1. Re:Everyone's an MD on the internet! by Locke2005 · · Score: 1

      Actually, it is dangerous. You do realize every microwave oven is roughly the same frequency as 2.4Ghz WiFi, don't you? At high enough power, radio waves do have a harmful effect. I work surrounded by dozens of WiFi routers and printers, and it does have a harmful effect... on my cell phone conversations.

      --
      I've abandoned my search for truth; now I'm just looking for some useful delusions.
  21. Mother not wanting to admit that she failed by timrod · · Score: 4, Insightful

    This article all but proves that wi-fi or some supposed wi-fi allergy had nothing to do with this. From the article:

    "Jenny’s mother, Debra Fry, said her daughter suffered with tiredness, headaches and bladder problems as a direct result of wireless internet connections at Chipping Norton School. "

    All three of those symptoms are also well-known symptoms of depression: the tiredness caused by the loss of energy and changes in sleep from the depression itself, and the headaches and bladder problems probably caused by malnutrition due to changes in diet caused by depression. I'm honestly surprised the article didn't interview a psychiatrist about this, because I can guarantee any psychiatrist worth their title would tell them that all of these things are signs of depression and that the mother should have gotten help right away.

    What it makes me wonder is if the mother did go to a doctor who told her that the symptoms were caused by a "wi-fi allergy" or if she simply deluded herself into thinking it because she didn't want to admit that her daughter had depression. In either case, someone should probably be charged with murder.

    1. Re:Mother not wanting to admit that she failed by ericloewe · · Score: 1

      No real doctor would say "wi-fi allergy" in a non-derisive tone.

      The correct term for that is "quack".

    2. Re:Mother not wanting to admit that she failed by Locke2005 · · Score: 1

      Depression doesn't cause bladder problems, diabetes does... and depression is often a side-effect of diabetes. Shame on the mother, and shame on any doctor they consulted for not treating the real problem. Suicide is also a pretty blatant symptom of depression.

      --
      I've abandoned my search for truth; now I'm just looking for some useful delusions.
    3. Re:Mother not wanting to admit that she failed by SuiteSisterMary · · Score: 1

      The other day, I was at the grocery store, when I noticed the in-store pharmacy had their free flu shots available, so I headed over.

      In talking with the pharmacist, he was asking if I'd had any previous bad reactions to vaccines or anything. I pre-answered a few of his questions, and he said 'Oh, you already know you can't catch the flu from the flu shot.' I deadpanned (perfectly, I might add,) 'Oh no, the only thing you can catch from a vaccine is autism.'

      The look in his face for a full ten seconds was priceless, but then I must of twitched or corpsed or something, and he broke out into a huge grin, and we had a great conversation about Wakefield, the idiocy of anti-vaxxers, the fact that it's probably going to take seeing kids at the playground in the polio leg braces, or masses of kids dying of measles or the like, to remind everybody about why modern medicine is a good thing.

      The WHO did a study on EMS, I believe it involved a bunch of self-diagnosed people in the room, and a lighted sign saying 'Wi-Fi device active' hooked up to a switch. No actual Wi-Fi devices, of course, but as soon as that light went on, 'Oh, I have a headache all of the sudden, oh, I'm nauseas all of the sudden, oh, woe is me.'

      --
      Vintage computer games and RPG books available. Email me if you're interested.
    4. Re:Mother not wanting to admit that she failed by T.E.D. · · Score: 4, Interesting

      What it makes me wonder is if the mother did go to a doctor who told her that the symptoms were caused by a "wi-fi allergy" or if she simply deluded herself into thinking it because she didn't want to admit that her daughter had depression. In either case, someone should probably be charged with murder.

      Speaking as a parent with 3 kids on anti-depressants now, I'd guess the latter. For our first kid, that "mental illness" thing was a huge hump to get over. Not just for us either. My son just did not want to accept it (he can get like that). He thought it made him "crazy". I finally convinced him to go on meds as a practical matter. Depression has been shown to have a self-feeding effect. Bad episodes can alter your brain to make recurrence more likely. But once we'd gotten over that hump, it wasn't such a big deal with his siblings. So at least his turmoil perhaps helped make the transition easier for them. In my youngest's case, perhaps saved her life.

      There's a lot of shame for families involved too, because it tends to run in families. I'm probably only talking about it openly because it appears to be my wife's side of the family with the history of it, rather than mine. You probably won't hear her talking about it this openly.

      I went to a funeral of a friend who was suffering and committed suicide this past summer. My group of his friends didn't know about his problems at all, and his friends and family who did were all church people, and were trying to help him "pray it away". What really broke my heart was his note to them apologizing for not being good enough to do so. But they rationalized this was God's Will somehow. (I'm a believer myself, but if God sends you a boat, you don't stay praying, you get on the damn boat. This town is full of doctors who would have helped him in a minute).

      So I'm not surprised at all that someone would refuse to admit their kid had depression, and even perhaps in extreme cases transfer all their shame and anger onto some other third party.

      What's truly sad is that it doesn't have to be that way at all. So many people die and/or lose loved ones needlessly. Bipolar or Depression is usually just a brain chemical imbalance. Finding the right meds isn't always trivial, but it tends to be effective if you can stay on them. You just have to manage it carefully, kinda like having diabetes.

    5. Re:Mother not wanting to admit that she failed by Jason+Levine · · Score: 5, Interesting

      It really is a shame that we stigmatize mental illness and disorders like we do. If someone has a physical ailment like diabetes, nobody (apart form a few wackos who are safely ignored) would think there's something wrong with the person taking insulin or modifying their diet. However, if someone has a mental disorder, they are told to "just get over it" as if they woke up one day and said to themselves "Hey, I think I'll be depressed today."

      When my son was diagnosed with Autism (not a mental illness, but gets grouped in there in many people's minds), my parents had a hard time accepting it. They still insist that he'll "grow out of it." What upset them even more was when I said that I was sure that I was autistic as well (just not diagnosed). They acted as though me being autistic was a bad judgement on their parenting. As if I was saying "Well, I'm autistic because you were horrible parents." If anything, I think it means they were better parents because they were dealing with something without knowing what it was and I still turned out pretty good. My wife and I have access to a lot more resources for my son than my parents had with me.

      We're not going to be able to properly deal with mental illness and disorders until we stop stigmatizing people for having them.

      --
      My sci-fi novel, Ghost Thief, is now available from Amazon.com.
    6. Re:Mother not wanting to admit that she failed by jfengel · · Score: 1

      Not disagreeing about the quack, but you'd be stunned at just how dimwitted people can be and still make it through medical school. For that matter, the news right now features a prominent and apparently skilled neurosurgeon who is a creationist, and disputes evolution in the most absurd terms.

      So I bet it's not too hard to find a quack with an MD who will affirm your self-diagnosis of wi-fi allergy. As they say, you know what they call the person who graduated at the bottom of med school class.

    7. Re:Mother not wanting to admit that she failed by T.E.D. · · Score: 1

      That's so sad.

      I'm not pimping for my own employer here, but they have simply awesome mental health care coverage. I didn't know this until we needed it, but I'm damn grateful (and sold on the value of mental health coverage).

      Its possible you are right about yours, but its also possible your HR people have seen this all before, you have several co-workers already in treatment, and you just don't know about it because it isn't the kind of thing people talk about at the water cooler. Your call I guess.

      You're completely right about the attitude though. I'm the kind of guy who doesn't like to take painkillers for headaches or after surgery. Its most definitely a cultural thing that Americans, and men in particular, are supposed to "walk it off". But you should consider the possibility that you are being harder on yourself than anyone else.

      My advice, for what little its worth: if you have issues with depression, get treatment. If its something mild you can talk out or fix with just CBT or something, a professional should be able to tell. If not, meds are life. I'm serious as a heart attack here.

  22. CPS by frovingslosh · · Score: 4, Interesting

    The kid had Crazy Parents Syndrome (CPS) and so she killed herself. See, it's a real medical condition because I gave it a TLA.

    --
    I'm an American. I love this country and the freedoms that we used to have.
    1. Re:CPS by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Grieving parents will often look for a reason, no matter how unlikely. It's not crazy to try to prevent others from having the same situation.

      So we have cyber bullying, wifi sensitivity and a host of other causes that need to be addressed for the sake of our children.

      No one wants to admit that their child was depressed and they couldn't think of a way to handle the problem other than taking their own life.

    2. Re:CPS by frovingslosh · · Score: 1

      Sorry, I posted my response to you incorrectly, as if it was a response to myself rather than to you. Too much wi-fi in this room was the root cause.

      --
      I'm an American. I love this country and the freedoms that we used to have.
    3. Re:CPS by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Cyber-bullying and WiFi sensitivity are two entirely different phenomenon

      It is easy to demonstrate that negative influences of a peer group have an effect regardless the medium that the negativity is delivered with, provided that the recipient can read, listen, watch the material

      There is absolutely no evidence to support the idea that people are sensitive to WiFi and plenty of evidence of demonstrating WiFi sensitivity if the THINK there is WiFi active, even if there is not exposure to WiFi

      Some parents fall in love of the idea of their children have 'conditions', and then subjecting their children to endless bullshit while taking them to quack doctor after quack doctor where the parent bathes in recognition of their awesomeness and the child is repeated identified as defective

      The mother and the quacks drove the child to isolation and suicide, the WiFi had nothing to do with it

    4. Re:CPS by laie_techie · · Score: 1

      So my question is, did these supposedly "Grieving parents" only look for a cause for the suicide after the event, or did they express their crackpot theories before the suicide and help drive their daughter to it? Admittedly I have not read TFA (this is Slashdot after all and all important things are always summed up in the summary), bit I expect that they made these absurd claims before the event.

      "School officials were firm in declining to remove the equipment without solid evidence supporting Fry's claims. A public health official said, "The overall scientific evidence does not support the suggestion that such exposure causes acute symptoms or that some people are able to detect radiofrequency fields. Nevertheless effective treatments need to be found for these symptoms."TFS

      It would be irrational for Fry to blame the school for not remedying a situation they weren't aware of. Indeed, TFA clarifies.

      I took lots of information into school to show the headteacher, Simon Duffy, but he said there was equally the same information available claiming Wi-Fi was safe.

    5. Re: CPS by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

      This lady was trying to get the network equipment removed long before her daughter's suicide. I'm sure the root cause was all the bullying she received for having a crazy ass mother.

    6. Re:CPS by MitchDev · · Score: 1

      Ding ding ding, we have the winning answer

    7. Re:CPS by NoKaOi · · Score: 5, Insightful

      The kid had Crazy Parents Syndrome (CPS) and so she killed herself. See, it's a real medical condition because I gave it a TLA.

      It's very likely what the daughter was actually suffering from was depression. The symptoms that the kooky mom attributed to WiFi were actually symptoms of depression. This isn't a case of blaming the WiFi after the suicide, it was blaming the WiFi all along for the daughter's depression symptoms. Instead of treating the depression, the mom went in the opposite direction and convinced the daughter her symptoms were due to external forces and focused energy on a futile battle with the school, thus exacerbating the depression and driving her to suicide. So most likely if the mom had been a responsible, non-idiotic parent and had taken the daughter to a psychologist for therapy rather than blaming WiFi, the daughter would still be alive. Therefore it is the mom's fault.

    8. Re:CPS by ArmoredDragon · · Score: 4, Interesting

      The interesting thing about supposed EHS, is that every single symptom they describe has been associated with psychomatic conditions. In other words, ordinary stress is enough to cause all of them. And more interesting is that practically everybody who claims to have EHS believes in all of the worst of practically every conspiracy theory that you can imagine.

      In other words, believing that the boogeyman is always out to get you is likely stressful and very taxing long term, but since in the mind of a conspiracy theorist everything they do is perfectly normal, they likely look for something to blame it on since they themselves can't face the fact that they're hurting themselves. Electromagnetism is thus their first choice.

      Unfortunately, there never will be a cure for this, or even any treatment for that matter. If you try to talk them out of believing in Alex Jones, they'll just think you're one of "them" (i.e. Illuminati, NWO, Bilderberg group, government, or any other imagined threat) and are trying to control their mind. Likewise, they'll invariably believe that any anti-stress medication given to them is a mind control pill, and will refuse treatment.

    9. Re:CPS by blang · · Score: 1

      This rings very true.

      --
      -- Another senseless waste of fine bytes.
    10. Re: CPS by frovingslosh · · Score: 1

      You mean Greedy, not Grieving, don't you? The mother had a crackpot belief that her daughter, who was showing classic signs of depression, was somehow hypersensitive to WiFi. She wouldn't listen to reason and certainly didn't do any tests to prove or disprove her crazy theory of WiFi sensitivity, but instead she gave the child a cell phone that likely emitted it's own WiFi and certainly emitted much much stronger RF signals on very close frequencies to WiFi signals. Wifi is built to be short range and doesn't go through walls well, Cell Phone signals are on similar frequencies but powerful enough to go through walls and cover a range of a mile or more. Now she wants to sue for money base on her ignorance. And there are some assholes who feel sympathy for her and likely would say give the poor grieving woman lots of money. I think she should be arrested and thrown in jail for child endangerment, and I sure would like to see awful things happen to her for abuse of the legal process.

      --
      I'm an American. I love this country and the freedoms that we used to have.
  23. Re:Hypocrisy much? by nwf · · Score: 1

    Well, I'm allergic to IP V6 packets on WiFi only.

    (Unfortunately, I feel I need to mention that's a joke, due to the deafening sound of whooshing here of late.)

    --
    I don't know, but it works for me.
  24. General overall skeptic here. by wjcofkc · · Score: 1

    But I do have a couple errant thoughts on the matter.

    Consider a little town in Texas who's name I cannot recall (talking population in the hundreds). A wireless carrier decided this was a strategic place to build a tower. The townspeople made quite a row about believing it would impact their health. All the same, the tower went up. Upon completion, a percent of the town's population "fell very ill". This quickly proceeded to become a substantial percentage of the town's population. A lawsuit was prepared.However, before it got anywhere the townspeople got clued in by the carrier on a fun little fact: the tower went up but was never turned on. The health of the townspeople returned to normal. Oops.

    I have talked to people over the years that insist on sensitivity to electromagnetic waves. For the longest time I scoffed at the notion without a second thought. Consider that this has been the case for many diseases over time, most notably and recently Fibromyalgia was considered to be all in the heads of its suffers. Now it is not only established as being real, but treatments have even been developed for it. I was on board with it being psychological. Oops.

    Consider further that now, just as when it was considered to be non-existent outside of the imagination, there are in fact legions of people who read about the symptoms, and decide they have the symptoms when in fact it really is just in their heads. This would have lent to it not being taken seriously in the first place.

    Okay, let's go one step further. Consider that we are pumping more and more radio waves of increasingly varied spectrum through pretty much anything that want stop them cold. Consider that exposing the environment and consequently ourselves to all of this is a first in human evolution.

    Also, we do have properties of an antennae. I am not saying this does not wreak of bullshit, but whether or not there are at all any consequences of any type to anything is something that should be under the constant scrutiny of objective science as the number of and reach of emf continues to grow.

    I am not trying to push a conclusion here, because I do not have one... just saying.

    --
    Brought to you by Carl's Junior.
    1. Re:General overall skeptic here. by the+gnat · · Score: 1

      Consider a little town in Texas who's name I cannot recall (talking population in the hundreds).

      It was probably South Africa, although it wouldn't surprise me if there were multiple examples of this.

    2. Re:General overall skeptic here. by MightyMait · · Score: 1

      Thanks for raising these concerns.

      Despite having studied physics (inverse-square law) and electrical engineering (though I wasn't the best student), I am concerned by how readily and glibly folks dismiss concerns about possible health effects of EMFs. The fact is, there's a lot we don't know about our own biology, and heating effects and ionizing radiation aren't necessarily the only possible modes by which EMFs could harm us.

      This documentary, while suffering from some poor production values, presents the hypothesis of some researchers (whose CVs I have not examined) that round-the-clock EMF exposure reduces the body's natural production of melatonin, a potent anti-oxidant and regulatory hormone, since the body doesn't distinguish between visible light and RF radiation. This reduced melatonin production allegedly can lead to a reduction in the body's ability to fight cancer growth.

      Time will tell but, as you say, we're performing a large-scale experiment on ourselves.

      --
      Nothing interesting to say...MUST...NOT...REPLY...ohtheheckwithit.
    3. Re:General overall skeptic here. by MightyMait · · Score: 1

      ...and I'll add: while I'm concerned, I still use a cell phone and have wi-fi at home, so I must not be *that* concerned. I do try to be sensible, however, about placement of wi-fi base stations so they're not right next to beds, for instance.

      --
      Nothing interesting to say...MUST...NOT...REPLY...ohtheheckwithit.
  25. See "Why Some People Think Total Nonsense..." by plsuh · · Score: 2

    Linked here to be self-referential:

    http://science.slashdot.org/st...

    https://www.washingtonpost.com...

    Bottom line, some people are stupid enough that they need to be reminded to breathe on a regular basis.

    --Paul

  26. Re:Hypocrisy much? by MindStalker · · Score: 3, Funny

    Well at least you've got a few years -> eternity to figure out a solution before you run into any real life issues.

  27. Treatment by Kozar_The_Malignant · · Score: 2

    >Nevertheless effective treatments need to be found for these symptoms.

    Zoloft.

    --
    Some mornings it's hardly worth chewing through the restraints to get out of bed.
    1. Re:Treatment by Locke2005 · · Score: 1, Interesting

      They did a study that found St. John's Wort no more effective than a placebo at treating depression. In that same study, they all tested Zoloft, which was also found to be no more effective than a placebo.

      --
      I've abandoned my search for truth; now I'm just looking for some useful delusions.
    2. Re:Treatment by Opportunist · · Score: 1

      Problem, all the stuff that DOES work has been outlawed already. Maybe the patent ran off and they couldn't come up with better stuff, I don't know.

      --
      We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
    3. Re:Treatment by kriston · · Score: 2

      "They" did a study.

      You're going to have to work harder than that.

      --

      Kriston

  28. Re:Well, less of a problem now... by cfalcon · · Score: 1

    Probably dark sarcasm, but to be clear, eugenics is bad. If for no other reason than the definition of the "eu-" changes. "Medieval scientists master genetics, soon to end plague of non-religious thought!"

  29. Before wifi, powerline fears by peter303 · · Score: 1

    Some people worried about living near a high voltage overhead transmission power line- electrostatic fields, RF, and magnetic. Studies generally discounted this, but doubts persist.

    1. Re:Before wifi, powerline fears by Locke2005 · · Score: 1

      Anything that will light up a florescent tube probably isn't good to be too close to. I used to work on a radio beacon that also lit up a florescent light tube mounted on the wall next to it, apparently just to demonstrate how much stray EMR it emitted. (Landing beacon for Cape Lisburne AFS landing strip, for those of you that are curious. As far as I can tell, it was originally installed on board a Navy vessel.)

      --
      I've abandoned my search for truth; now I'm just looking for some useful delusions.
    2. Re:Before wifi, powerline fears by aaarrrgggh · · Score: 1

      High voltage lines I would give more credence to, between the sound of corona discharge at medium voltage, and to a much lesser level the electric field of 220kV + lines. I have also seen places with high magnetic field due to the use of ground return, where things become magnetized.

      Noise might be a hard one to pidgeonhole as such, but I would class all of these things as mental rather than physical root causes.

  30. There are a lot of strange allergies out there! by quietwalker · · Score: 3, Informative

    For example, every time I see or hear Donald Trump, or hear about his standing in polls, I experience waves of nausea, get headaches, become irritable, and have troubles thinking anything other than 'dark' thoughts.

    I know a lot of people who have the same allergic reaction, and I think it's only fair that we make the US a Donald Trump free zone, to end this sort of suffering.

    1. Re:There are a lot of strange allergies out there! by Opportunist · · Score: 1

      Don't you dare to throw him out! Keep your trash in your own country!

      --
      We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
    2. Re:There are a lot of strange allergies out there! by quietwalker · · Score: 1

      There's a lot of countries that could take him. I'm thinking of that really smelly one. You know the one I'm talking about.

    3. Re:There are a lot of strange allergies out there! by Opportunist · · Score: 1

      Oh c'mon, hasn't France suffered enough lately?

      --
      We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
  31. Tinfoil hat + metal mash tunic by iamacat · · Score: 1

    Not that I think any of this is likely, but sufferers should be able to relieve their physical or psychosomatic symptoms by dressing up in a Faraday cage. Don't see any harm if they feel better and don't demand the rest of the world go back to stone age.

    * Open to possibility that people with various metal implants in their body would be actually sensitive.

  32. "Allergy" by Chris+Mattern · · Score: 1

    You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.

    1. Re:"Allergy" by Opportunist · · Score: 1

      Waiter: "Is your allergy one to nuts or one to common sense?"

      --
      We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
  33. Obvious solution by Locke2005 · · Score: 1

    Home school your child if you think the school environment is harmful to them. Personally, I think the problem was psychosomatic, but it is still your right to teach your child yourself. If you didn't then perhaps it is YOUR fault, not the schools, that your daughter committed suicide...

    --
    I've abandoned my search for truth; now I'm just looking for some useful delusions.
  34. People fear what they do not understand by TomGreenhaw · · Score: 1

    My dad spent much of his career working next to a 50,000 watt AM radio transmitter. He would hold a fluorescent light near the transmission lines going out to the antenna array and it would light up in mid air. Neither he nor any of his colleagues experienced any ill effects including higher cancer rates. Granted, this is much lower frequency than wifi, which can potentially be ionizing. Based on this direct personal experience though fear of RF is largely irrational.

    --
    Greed is the root of all evil.
    1. Re:People fear what they do not understand by neo-mkrey · · Score: 2

      No, radio-level frequencies are not ionizing.

    2. Re:People fear what they do not understand by TomGreenhaw · · Score: 1

      I stand corrected - you are correct. Wifi radio radiation is non-ionizing. I'm even less afraid than I was before :-)

      --
      Greed is the root of all evil.
    3. Re:People fear what they do not understand by dara · · Score: 1

      Wikipedia has a nice graphic for understanding the EM spectrum at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.... Note that EHF which tops out at 300 GHz is still well away from the ionization breakpoint (usually defined for a water molecule which is in the higher UV band). Normal wireless communication is always under 100 GHz (follow the EHF link in the image) since for one reason, atmospheric absorption is a killer at the upper end of EHF. It's possible to use lasers for communication (more practical for space, but experiments on land have been done - not very practical for replacing wireless comm to omni-directional antennas though). For now, you can just think of all wireless comm happening at frequencies below light and thus non-ionizing which means an individual photon only has enough energy to cause heating. Throw enough photons at the same place and this can result in burning or death of course, but this is why levels are spec'd not to go above a certain flux density (usually to protect your eyes which are one of the most sensitive places to heating damage). Some military/civil/commercial transmitters will exceed this density which is why they are strict guidelines for workers interacting with these transmitters. Wi-fi transmitters aren't even remotely close to these limits.

      Any other damage mechanisms besides heating are still speculative and to my knowledge, there is no scientific validation for any of them. So like you Tom, I am not afraid either - there is enough to worry about as it is (climate change and other ecological problems - some of it from technology, political problems, etc.). I sure hope this woman is shut down hard by the court system (which is another one of our problems I'm afraid - so nothing is certain).

  35. Idiocracy, here we come by Opportunist · · Score: 1

    It's cool to be an idiot! Never before has there ever been a time that we celebrated idiocy and ignorance as we do today.

    Remember the good ol' days? You know, after the war was over. Who were our heroes? Astronauts. And aside of the priests, the medical scientists, doctors, they were the revered people. For they bring us the cure. From polio. And diphteria. And all the other diseases that our ancestors feared and we now can laugh in the face of, for medicine has triumphed supreme over the germs! And the scientists that bring us the power of the atom, a dangerous force to be reckoned with, but safe in the hand of those who learned to harness its unruly powers to give us electricity.

    And now compare that with today. People throw their money at "miracle cures" like before the FDA, distrusting medical science. The problem here is not that they are questioning science. Questioning is a good thing, blind trust and faith has been misplaced too many times, and the core of science is doubting and testing what is established to come to more understanding. But they don't want understanding. They want to disbelieve. Because that's what it has turned to. It's no longer about what is real. It's about what you "believe". Have you heard this before? "Oh, I don't believe in science". Or medicine. Or technology. As if it had anything to do with faith.

    Instead these imbeciles and dimwits turn to promises of some miracle cure that offers NO proof or evidence whatsoever, aside of some anecdotes of people who took it, didn't outright die and then felt better (when the effects of the "cure" wore off, most of the time, actually). And that's their "proof" that this is far better than the real medicine. Why? Well, because it's only been done 'cause big pharma wants money.

    Questioned why they think that the quack selling them the miracle cure for a markup of roughly 10,000% isn't in it PURELY for the money with no regard whatsoever for their health, such people get either defensive or offensive. Most of the time, both.

    What the fuck happened here? When did we turn into an anti-scientific society?

    --
    We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
    1. Re:Idiocracy, here we come by Jason+Levine · · Score: 1

      When did we turn into an anti-scientific society?

      And it only seems to get worse. Some of the biggest politicians running for president (*cough*Trump*cough*Carson*cough*Cruz*cough*) don't only indulge in anti-science, but revel in it. Trump in particular has said some things that should have been an automatic, one-way ticket out of the presidential race, but there he remains at the top of the polls. When you have politicians in charge spouting anti-science nonsense and crowds of people cheering them on, it can make a person feel very pessimistic about the future of one's country.

      --
      My sci-fi novel, Ghost Thief, is now available from Amazon.com.
    2. Re:Idiocracy, here we come by Major+Blud · · Score: 1

      "When did we turn into an anti-scientific society?"

      There's quite a few incidents that happened between now and then that have shaken peoples' confidence in science. Think of Chernobyl, Bhopal, the Challenger/Columbia, Vioxx, etc. Unfortunately there's a disconnect here that people don't understand......that it was Science that proved these incidents were a problem, not that these incidents were problems because of Science.

      --
      If you post as Anonymous Coward, don't expect a reply.
  36. Knowing vs unknowing falsehood by danaris · · Score: 3, Insightful

    "That would be unethical, both because you're hawking fraudulent tests, but also because you're encouraging people to believe that their delusion is accepted ..."

    Priests have no problem with such a deception.

    There's a huge difference between being deliberately deceptive, and spreading a belief that you yourself devoutly believe in, that happens to also be false.

    And if you seriously believe that more than a tiny fraction of priests don't believe in the religion they preach (to the extent that it would be fair to call them deliberately deceptive) then you're an idiot, and probably waaaay too angry at the world in general.

    Dan Aris

    --
    Fun. Free. Online. RPG. BattleMaster.
    1. Re:Knowing vs unknowing falsehood by currently_awake · · Score: 1

      We really need a remote village somewhere, without all the "Crazy Allergy" sources. If parents think their kids have those allergies they can go live there for a while and see if they get better. I suggest a domed (glass with Faraday cage) village in northern Canada, only accessible by plane, with full quarantine going in.

    2. Re:Knowing vs unknowing falsehood by omnichad · · Score: 1

      Just move to West Virginia: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/new...

    3. Re:Knowing vs unknowing falsehood by hankwang · · Score: 1

      "... that more than a tiny fraction of priests don't believe in the religion they preach (to the extent that it would be fair to call them deliberately deceptive) then you're an..."

      Depends on the definitions of 'tiny' and 'believe'. I know a protestant theologist who used to teach priests-to-be and who became a priest himself a few years ago. At least, they teach the students about the historical background of the Bible (i.e., it was definitely not written by God, nor do scholars believe that a lot of what's in it really happened). Basically, they teach the students that God as described in the Bible does not exist. There are some true-believer students who memorize it just so that they pass the exams, but most of the students get the point.

      So when priests preach, I suppose that "God" in their mind is a metaphor for ideas about life, even though it they know that it means something different to many churchgoers. Is that deception?

    4. Re:Knowing vs unknowing falsehood by metrix007 · · Score: 1

      No. Spreading information that you haven't verified because you want it to be true is no better than deliberately deceiving people.

      --
      If you ignore ACs because they are anonymous - you're an idiot.
  37. Re:Why the controversy? by Opportunist · · Score: 1

    You very obviously never tried to reason sensibly with crazies of that caliber. You're essentially dealing with a conspiracy theory here. There is no study you could possibly conduct that would remotely stand a chance to convince them. Either they will reject the result as manipulated or discount you and whoever does it altogether as being part of some hidden agenda and in the pockets of the WiFi industry.

    --
    We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
  38. Re:I'm glad the school is standing up to her by Opportunist · · Score: 1

    Wait and see whether more crazies pop up and whether the school then still thinks it's worth the fight.

    --
    We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
  39. What would it acomplish? by frovingslosh · · Score: 2

    That is a logical and well thought out test. It is completely rational. And it would be completely useless in dealing with irrational and illogical crackpots.

    Sure, the child could have been tested and that would have shown a complete lack of hypersensitivity to WiFi. But that isn't the answer that the parents wanted and was not one they would accept. They would have always come up with reasons that the test "failed". Perhaps by limiting exposure to short time segments with segments of no WiFi between them the child was not exposed to enough WiFi to detect. Of maybe, if done in a well shielded environment she was protected from other RF sources that contribute to the problem. Or, if not well enough shielded, other Rf and WiFi signals were a contributing factor. And since that child is magically hypersensitive to RF then well enough shielding may not be adequately determined by mere physical instruments.

    Yes, the parent had an opportunity to prove the sensitivity when the child was alive and failed to do so, and it can not be proven now. But in their sick minds they will claim that it can't be proven that the child wasn't hypersensitive either, so they are entitled to lots of money from lots of people.

    It is like trying to have a logical discussion about religion with religious crackpots. Oh not your one true religion, of course, but with any of those other believers of crackpot religions.

    --
    I'm an American. I love this country and the freedoms that we used to have.
    1. Re:What would it acomplish? by Coren22 · · Score: 2

      Those lots of people should point out that the cell phone the girl used put out far more radiation at the ranges it is (in the pocket, hands, or against the head) than any wifi router.

      --
      APK likes to ask for responses to the same things over and over. Maybe he just likes the responses?
    2. Re:What would it acomplish? by NormalVisual · · Score: 2

      Don't cloud the issue with mere facts!

      --
      Please stand clear of the doors, por favor mantenganse alejado de las puertas
  40. Your fault, not the school's by jdavidb · · Score: 1

    Fry says her daughter was allergic to Wi-Fi, and blames Jenny's school for not removing wireless routers and other networking equipment

    This is a no brainer. If your school is doing something that you think is killing your child, take your child out of school and homeschool her. People do so for much, much less than this, and there are many other benefits, and I completely disagree with you, but if this is how you feel, homeschooling is the obvious choice to make.

    No way would I allow a school to make a decision that I felt was killing or hurting my child. Homeschooling is legal in all 50 states and your child can get a great education even if you yourself are not capable of teaching them.

    Of course, I completely disagree with the idea that wi-fi sensitivity exists...

    1. Re:Your fault, not the school's by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Homeschooling is legal in all 50 states

      Very eloquently put, now you do realise this story has fuck all to do with those fifty united states?

    2. Re:Your fault, not the school's by jdavidb · · Score: 1

      You missed the part where this happened over the pond as it were, where homeschooling is a lot more difficult, otherwise, yeah, spot on.

      Yes, I did. Thank you for pointing that out. My understanding of UK law is that homeschooling is legal under the "education otherwise" clause of the law. Not sure how difficult that is in practice.

    3. Re:Your fault, not the school's by shabble · · Score: 1

      Homeschooling is legal in all 50 states...

      Trouble is, this idiot and her daughter were in one of the 51st states - the UK. (Not that it's illegal in the UK, just addressing your presumption that this sort of ignorance is restricted to the US.)

    4. Re:Your fault, not the school's by jdavidb · · Score: 1

      Not that it's illegal in the UK, just addressing your presumption that this sort of ignorance is restricted to the US.

      Heh - touche. Although it was less presumption and more being a traditional lazy guy who didn't read the full article. BTW, before you posted that, others pointed it out to me and I addressed it; I actually know a little bit about UK homeschooling law.

      http://slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=8422489&cid=51044187 http://slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=8422489&cid=51044207

  41. That would be unethical by frovingslosh · · Score: 1

    Yup, to do something as unethical as that you would have to call yourself a Priest or Reverend.

    --
    I'm an American. I love this country and the freedoms that we used to have.
  42. Power bricks by phorm · · Score: 1

    Actually you make a pretty good point. While I wouldn't say any of them are causing me pain, I've definitely suffered a lot of annoyance from cheap power supplies or bricks. These often emit a high-frequency whine that many people can't hear.

    Now, generally the commercial stuff is a bit better, but if they're using cheap wifi routers in the classrooms etc then it's possible that they had a noisy brick of two. Doubtable that it would drive somebody to suicide though, and if she heard it others of her age should have as well.

  43. Brain is electrochemical; magnets affect it; EMI? by DutchUncle · · Score: 1

    I don't believe in the wide-scale FUD Luddite-ism here, but . . . It is already conclusively shown that very strong EM fields can affect people's emotions, sway people to tell the truth, or have other mental effects. Multiple reports have been posted here on Slashdot. We assume that weak fields and signals don't bother people; but could some individuals be particularly susceptible, and would we be able to test for this susceptibility? It used to be only big cities with lots of broadcasting that had noticeable EM levels; now every household has multiple radio transmitters, some of them being carried in people's pockets. There was a science fiction story years ago about someone purporting to prove that telepathy is nonsense by making a machine that should block mental interaction effect, and when the machine gets turned on everyone goes nuts because it (presumably) even interfered with their brains talking to themselves. Would we even know if we were doing such a thing at a low level, akin to having loud noises in the background all the time?

  44. Nothing a by petergriffinismyhero · · Score: 1

    ...well made tin foil hat wouldn't have fixed.

  45. Re:Why the controversy? by Jason+Levine · · Score: 1

    Just like all the studies disproving any vaccine-autism link have proven to everyone that no vaccine-autism link exists? Or all the moon landing proof has everyone 100% convinced that moon landings occurred? Some people will believe whatever they want to believe and the only "proof/evidence" that matters is the stuff that proves them right. All that other stuff is manufactured by The Grand Conspiracy to keep the people in line.

    --
    My sci-fi novel, Ghost Thief, is now available from Amazon.com.
  46. Re:A lot of you are seem too quick to judge by angel'o'sphere · · Score: 1

    Well, then this site is incorrect: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/...

    An our days UTMS/3G should be around 125mW
    Wifi is between 200 mW in the 5GHz band and 100 mW in the 2.4 GHz band.

    Old (no longer sold) power level 2 3G is a bit higher ... none of them comes to 2W.

    Perhaps you mean how much your laptop is radiating, that is indeed low. But the main problem are the base stations, not the laptops.

    --
    Cost free eBook I read (by iBook/Kobo/Amazon/ObookO/Gutenberg etc.): "The Green Odyssey" by Philip Jose Farmer.
  47. Re:Brain is electrochemical; magnets affect it; EM by Areyoukiddingme · · Score: 1

    but could some individuals be particularly susceptible,

    No.

    ...and would we be able to test for this susceptibility?

    Yes. We did. They aren't.

    Multiple separate double-blind studies have been conducted. No one is sensitive to WiFi. People who claim sensitivity will develop symptoms when sitting next to a WiFi access point that has NO connected radios, as long as the power LED is on. The LED is on, they have symptoms. Turn off the LED, no symptoms. It also works with a WiFi access point that has connected radios. Turn on the radios and the LED, they have symptoms. Turn off the LED, leave the radios on, they don't have symptoms. It's 100% psychosomatic.

    It's now standard operating procedure whenever a new cellular tower is built to leave the final antenna connections completely disconnected for several weeks. After the now inevitable spate of complaints and lawsuits, the tower is shown to have no power at all. The lawsuits are dismissed, the tower is connected, and no one in the area ever knows when it's actually powered up or not, because it doesn't have an LED on it. So symptoms go away.

  48. I believe in Electro Hypersensitivity. by Chas · · Score: 1

    Basically, it's when someone erroneously believes that wifi signals are dangerous and they freak out about it. Like this woman.

    --


    Chas - The one, the only.
    THANK GOD!!!
  49. Wicked 802.11 leakage by wkwilley2 · · Score: 1

    Wow the Wifi sure is strong in here, brb gotta piss.

    --
    Have you ever fallen asleep at the keybhanusdiog?
  50. Knowing versus unknowing falsehood by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    I do seriously believe that more than a tiny fraction of priests don't believe in the religion they preach and I am not an idiot. Are you a child? Why would you stoop to this level? You would generalize us as idiots, then say we're the angry ones?

    I believe most of the non-believing priests may believe they're doing more good by being deliberately deceptive than not, perhaps because of the imagined authority their council affords them to others. I would disagree with them on this, believing the harm they're doing perpetuating a dangerous fantasy outweighs any good they accomplish, but that is largely irrelevant at the moment.

    What is relevant is how you would discern enough true believers from false ones, in a somehow representative sample of priests, in order to have any real clue what percentage of priests are true and what percentage are not. Where is your Shibboleth test for this? Where is your knowing?

    I'll freely admit I could be wrong in how many there are, but that doesn't automatically make me wrong. We don't know, and unlike God, I'm not asking you to swallow the birth of the universe as a tale told by a 2,000-year-old goat fucker. Evidence is what we need for both sides of what percentage of priests are false.

    In the meantime, let's forgo the grade school insults. Deal?

    1. Re:Knowing versus unknowing falsehood by blang · · Score: 1

      It is perfectly possible to do good for the wrong reasons.
      While the faith-based parts of religion might be complete garbage to the enlightened mind, there is also a lot of ethics being thought, such as you shall not not kill, lie, steal. If preaching in a culture where murder and theft is prevalent, getting a thug to join the choir would be beneficial to society, even if it means there is one more idiot believing in nonsense. At least if the church is a moderate one, and doesn't the thug into a rotten jihadist. A lot of ex criminals and gang members in Europe were lured into mosques started dressing like fucking nomads and became jihadists within a year.

      --
      -- Another senseless waste of fine bytes.
  51. Re:A lot of you are seem too quick to judge by wkwilley2 · · Score: 1

    It is interesting to note that the World Health Organization (WHO) has classified as a "potential carcinogen".

    You know what else is classified as a potential carcinogen by the WHO? Pretty much everything you have and will ever come in contact with. Red Meat, Bubblegum, and Soda to name a few.

    Frankly, a life without steaks and Coke-cola isn't one worth living.

    --
    Have you ever fallen asleep at the keybhanusdiog?
  52. Re:NMS by Chas · · Score: 1

    Lemme guess, you're one of those poor, deluded fucks that runs around with one of those magnetic bracelets on and thinks its helping you...

    --


    Chas - The one, the only.
    THANK GOD!!!
  53. Mental Health and Family by Irate+Engineer · · Score: 1

    No joking, there is a tendency for mental health disorders to run in families. Not just genetic or hereditary issues, some aspects are environmental. If the parents have disorders, there is a high probability that the children will have disorders.

    Sadly, some folks don't know what "normal" is, and manage to function with their disorders, thinking that they are "normal". And the kids grow up thinking that what they are experiencing is normal. And so on, and so on. Until someone realizes everything is broken and crashes, hurting or killing themselves to get out of the cycle.

    I hope this mom gets some help.

    --

    Left MS Windows for Linux Mint and never looked back!

    Vote for Bernie in 2016!

  54. Re:Brain is electrochemical; magnets affect it; EM by JustNiz · · Score: 1

    >> The LED is on, they have symptoms. Turn off the LED, no symptoms. ... It's 100% psychosomatic.

    Really? to me it looks clear that they're actually allergic to lit LEDs.

  55. This further supports that it's mental illness by kriston · · Score: 1

    This article further supports that it's nothing but mental illness.

    There's a town full of these sufferers in Green Bank, WV, near the radio telescope. These people are actually bringing their cell phones and even run MICROWAVE OVENS and none of them feel any "allergies" to them. Microwave ovens are almost the same frequency as WiFi is.

    It's mental illness.

    Not to mention they are polluting the clear airwaves required for operating the telescope.

    --

    Kriston

    1. Re:This further supports that it's mental illness by Shadow+IT+Ninja · · Score: 1

      So they don't know that radio telescopes are receivers and not transmitters?

      I have tested Microwave Ovens with a diode and a volt meeter (which makes a simple broad spectrum radio receiver) and the ones I have tested are always so well shielded that you get nothing. Cell phones, on the other hand, generate a strongly measurable voltage across the diode. By the way, I've done this demonstration repeatedly to show that a cell phone in air plane mode can still use GPS for navigation without transmitting a thing.

    2. Re:This further supports that it's mental illness by kriston · · Score: 1

      First, no, they are in the "quiet" zone near the radio telescope because there is little to no radio signals there.

      Second, microwave ovens are not fully shielded and they indeed leak RF energy. They are only shielded enough to protect human tissue. My microwave oven blocks my 2.4 GHz cordless phones and WiFi tablets nearby.

      Also, when you open the door without pressing "stop", a huge burst will be emitted from the microwave oven. Please read this article concerning microwave ovens and another radio telescope:

      http://www.skyandtelescope.com...

      --

      Kriston

    3. Re:This further supports that it's mental illness by Shadow+IT+Ninja · · Score: 1

      I was responding to the notion that the radio telescopes, themselves, are a source of radio transmissions. I was not casting doubt on the sensitivity of radio telescopes to microwave ovens, WiFi, etc. However, I do seriously doubt that these supposed radio sensitive people are anywhere near as sensitive as a radio telescope if they are really sensitive at all.

      So I checked my own microwave and it does, indeed, give a small blip on the diode/volt meter when the door is opened while running. It's still much less than a cell phone or WiFi signal. I get absolutely nothing when the door is closed and I never have with any other microwave I have tested. I'm not saying it's impossible but I have yet to see one that is noticeably poorly shielded.

  56. So let them go through the test, humor them by HalAtWork · · Score: 1

    Exactly why you don't show the individuals the proof. Instead, like parent poster said, humor them and let them go through test themselves so that they can *witness* this truth.

  57. Re:COHEN22 invents electromag radiation by MiniMike · · Score: 1

    Umm, care to buy a Faraday cage? New model, much lighter than the old one. Not for those sensitive to lanolin.

  58. The most effective treatment by reve_etrange · · Score: 1

    I predict that the most effective treatment for EHS will be bupropion (Welbutrin).

    --
    .: Semper Absurda :.
  59. Re:Brain is electrochemical; magnets affect it; EM by DutchUncle · · Score: 1

    but could some individuals be particularly susceptible,

    No.

    There are average humans, and then there are professional athletes, and then there are Michael Jordan and Wayne Gretzky and Cy Young who set enduring records. Can we test for those exceptional abilities *objectively*, rather than in competition (which introduces a dependency on the quality and nature of the competition)? No. Can we know in advance which individual has those exceptional abilities? Also no. I submit that this is the exact same case, on the other end, of some individuals being particularly susceptible. Maybe some people's neurons just happen to be an exact number of wavelengths long, totally random and totally within the bell curve of "normal variation", and maybe there have been people with the exact same situation throughout the history of the human race - except none of them were living in dense broadcasting on AM and FM and wifi bands. Hell, some people in the same family sunburn faster than their siblings - they're more susceptible to EM radiation in the ultraviolet.

    If EM radiation affected someone like constantly living under brighter sunlight (and burning), or like constantly living with loud random noise (which might affect people's concentration and communication), HOW WOULD WE KNOW? Autism is ridiculously higher than ever in history; are those people all getting constant stimulation directly at the optic or aural nerve endings so they are always disrupted? HOW WOULD WE KNOW FOR SURE? Yes, most of the complaints are nonsense, but if we are engineers and scientists we should measure and test before discarding valid reports with the nonsense. Maybe some people really DO need tinfoil hats. :-)

  60. This is similar to the legislation against Savlia. by ToddInSF · · Score: 1

    Which has hinged pretty much on a single parent of a child that committed suicide months after taking some.

    But "drug" hysteria is always given more credence than tech hysteria.

  61. Re:Brain is electrochemical; magnets affect it; EM by Areyoukiddingme · · Score: 1

    Yes, most of the complaints are nonsense, but if we are engineers and scientists we should measure and test before discarding valid reports with the nonsense.

    Nearly my entire post described exactly such testing. If testing the people who claim they have the "disorder" isn't sufficient, what more can be done? Random testing of the entire population? That seems particularly pointless.

    The biggest problem with all of these complaints is there is no physical basis for them. We already know that AM, FM, and wifi bands do not affect anybody's optic or aural nerves. This has been definitively proven with invasive surgery (attempting to correct blindness and deafness) and extremely sensitive instruments attached directly to nerves, not to mention repeated exposure experiments, some of them military. The human body is completely transparent to AM and FM frequencies. They go right through you. Water molecules in the human body can absorb wifi frequencies, and we know precisely what they cause. They make the water molecule vibrate a tiny bit faster, contributing to heating. There are no other effects distinguishable from heating. For the energies used by wifi, sitting in front of a space heater is thousands of times "worse" for you, if getting warmer can be considered worse. For cell phone frequencies, you don't even get that. The human body is transparent to them too.

    Here's why:

    To have a physiological effect, the energy of the radiation must be absorbed. To be absorbed, there must be quantum energy level pairs which match the photon energy of the radiation. If these energy level pairs are not available in a given frequency range, then the material will be transparent to that radiation.

    The physics of the electromagnetic spectrum as it relates to objects is extremely well understood, right down to the quantum mechanics. Your nice white LED backlight on your monitor wouldn't work if it wasn't. Your nice AMOLED phone display wouldn't exist either. These things are really really well understood. And humans are either transparent to the spectrums they're complaining about, or less affected by them than shivering.

  62. Maybe... by cwsumner · · Score: 1

    Human beings can detect static magnetic fields (not changing). This has been known since the '70s.

    The human neural system is partly electronic, the nerves are not just chemical.

    Some people claim to be able to detect RF, but the scientific tests are not in the literature. The tests for the static magnetic fields are... why?

    Just because a superstitious person believes something, does not necessarily make it false.

    I'm an electronics engineer and I know what's what. 8-)
    I have a cellphone, but I turn it off when in known "shadow" areas and never touch it to my face.
    I don't have any WiFi transceivers in my house.

  63. But when... by WillyWanker · · Score: 1

    Will they develop a cure for Idiot Mother Syndrome (IMS)???

  64. Homeschooling by MoarSauce123 · · Score: 1

    Homeschooling is legal in the UK and as a parent I would opt for that if the well-being of my child is in danger. And what is so special about the WiFi frequency range compared to many other sources of RF? I do not want to dismiss the pain of the loss of her child, but Fry has really no case here.