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US Bureau of Labor Statistics: Programmer Jobs Will Decline 8% (computerworld.com)
theodp writes: Two weeks ago, as the nation's schools 'taught kids to program' with an Hour of Code, Microsoft and others celebrated a 6-year lobbying effort that culminated in the passage of legislation that made Computer Science a core K-12 subject, which the software giant said "will advance some of the goals outlined in Microsoft's National Talent Strategy." But on Tuesday, Computerworld reported that the U.S. Bureau of Labor Statistics has put somewhat of a buzzkill on the learn-to-code party, saying IT jobs will grow 12% over the next decade, although computer programmers will see an 8% decline. "Computer programming can be done from anywhere in the world, so companies sometimes hire programmers in countries where wages are lower," explained the government. The silver lining is that software developers, the largest occupational group in IT, will increase by 17% or 186,600, over this period. The nomenclature here is a little muddy, since "programmers" and "software developers" are often used interchangeably. Here's how they're distinguished in this article: "Programmers are focused on coding and implementing requirements, and that’s why they may be more susceptible to offshoring, in contrast to software developers who may be more engaged with the business, analyzing needs and collaborating with multiple parties."
Short term, I guess its time for any remaining "programmers" to change their titles to "developers"...which is probably what's really driving the "growth."
>> software developers who may be more engaged with the business, analyzing needs and collaborating with multiple parties
In other words, don't ever let anyone figure out what exactly you do, and make sure you're attending more meetings than actually working. Mission accomplished!
The never-ending growth myth has to be put to rest now. We need a new social model that will for us, not just for the rentiers and 1%ers.
We can't grow eternally. It's not physically possible or socially desirable.
People who can only translate extremely specific requirements into source code have been useless for a decade.
During that same time period, secretarial jobs will likely see an 8% drop in demand, but administrative assistants will see a 17% increase!
What percentage of jobs out there are being done by H1Bs? I would assume they would feel the 8% hit first.
If there's going to be any hope for the American working class we're gonna need to get over our childish "I can make it on my own" attitudes and bring back organized labor and the power and protection it offers. It's ridiculous to think we as individuals can effectively bargain with mega corps. John Galt is a child's daydream...
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The BLS is confusing Software Developer with Systems Analyst.
"I don't know, therefore Aliens" Wafflebox1
Given the distinction described, programmers being just implementation and 'developers' actually understanding the needs and wider context, programmers really should be on the decline, and there shouldn't be room for a 'software developer' to need 'programmers' as time goes on.
Already the divide has been largely responsible for some of the most infuriating software I've had to use. The people actually creating it have no clue about the wider context. Meanwhile you have 'architects' that don't know the first thing about how the code works or can work or most critically how it wouldn't work. Somehow enterprise industry has latched onto the model of 'architect' versus 'implementer' and never shall the two cross and it makes for some terrible software.
Sometimes it makes a mountain out of a molehill (don't need a massive team to maintain what amounts to be a simple script, and often giving it a massive team makes it senselessly more complex) and sometimes it does address some issues of tedium associated with a genuinely complex project. For the first part, people should not confuse 'importance' with 'complexity'. People presume that something very important warrants a large team, which is often wrong. For the latter, the large team may be warranted, but no coders should be exempt from understanding the context for their work. I've seen that last bit happen all the time, to the point of bad coding decisions resulting in the programmer resenting the paying customer for what ultimately is the programmer's lack of understanding the use case rather than the customer 'not being smart enough to deal'.
XML is like violence. If it doesn't solve the problem, use more.
Everybody tried outsourcing and realized that it doesn't work. Creating a great product requires creativity and each contributor capable of saying no to superiors and standing up for their improvements to the solution. This mind set does not yet exist much outside Silicon Valley, let alone USA and huge lifestyle disparity between american bosses and outsourced coders would not allow it to flourish.
By the time developing countries have the kind of talent in greater quality/quantity than US, labor will not be that cheap anymore because employees will know their worth. At that point, I will just move there.
Hr1B VISAs need to be removed. Period. End of Story.
Trump has it correct.
CAP === 'amplify'
we can count on us?
See subject & this post -> http://yro.slashdot.org/commen...
* :(
(Glad I'm semi-retired - things aren't looking so great on the coding front as they used to apparently...)
APK
P.S.=> Like I said in the link above: "Follow the money" - it's the answer to 99/100 questions in some way... apk
Why are you guys trying to create more coders with your new K-12 core subject? All that shit is being off-shored now. And thats before you look at the H1-B situation. You'd be better off flipping burgers. lol
Am I a programmer? Am I a Software Developer? Maybe I'm a Software Engineer! Maybe a software architect... honestly I can't tell anymore
Jobs for Programmers and Software Developers who are U.S. Citizens will decline by 8%, while lower-paying jobs for H1-B Programmers and Software Developers will increase by 8%
Go ahead, foreign nationals, mod me down, I DARE YOU, you're just proving my point for me.
MEMO TO ASSHOLE CORPORATIONS: Stop screwing over U.S. Citizens!
No, Sexconker, it's the H1-B workers who are cash cows for asshole U.S. corporations who keep firing U.S. workers and hiring them, so they can make more money off of destroying the middle class in this country.
You are all foreign cows. Mooo, MOOO go the H1-B cows!
Are YOU using the TOOL, or is the TOOL using YOU? Think about it!
Great to see the 5 year plan to increase the number of programmers is already paying off. Time to push for more STEM.
I've been telling you guys that's what's happening. Companies these days make products or for internal use by throwing together a bunch of open source software, rarely making a contributions in either case. It used to be just system integrators but now it's everybody.
That's the new model.
What's exacerbating things now is that so few people give a shit about the GPL these days, preferring other licenses that are easier to work with, as the goal of Open Source has transited from sharing to cost cutting.
Forgetting 'programmers'/'developers' for a minute - contractors and consultants are leading market indicators since their demand peaks during market instability (both growth and contraction). And, IMHO deep embedded work is a leading indicator for the manufacturing sector since they produce hard goods such as appliances and infrastructure. That said, hourly rates are off FY2000 highs by 40% and are flat since the mid 90's, and there are almost no positions open. The only exception is medical devices where there seems to be a bit of a bubble happening, but the financing for the companies hiring is all highly speculative VC and hedge funds, which is a red flag if you expect a gig to run more than a few months. The contract agencies that place workers are compensating for the fewer positions by increasing markup, from as low as 20% on corp-to-corp basis to upwards of 40%, which they can only get away with by submitting cheap inexperienced workers and marking them way up, which seems to work since hiring managers are more likely than not to be clueless to what the job actually requires, which is in part due to hedge fund weenies placing line managers with inexperienced cronies or cheap imported labor.
The view from down here is there was no recovery from 2000 or 2008, there is no recovery on the horizon, R&D infrastructure is being dismantled, manufacturing is gone, and the engineering job market is in a luge-ride race to the bottom. There's a little money to be made picking the bones or sucking up health care dollars or green energy dollars or whatever is fashionable enough to attract foolish greedy investors, but long term it looks bad to me. I'm getting out... buy into a wood pellet fab or something else that will do well when everyone becomes poor.
Ego Dude:
I think
I think I am
Therefore I am
I think
The Main:
Of course you are my bright little star
I've miles and miles of files
Pretty files of your forefather's fruit
and now to suit, our great computer
You're magnetic ink
Ego Dude:
I'm more than that, I know I am
At least, I think I must be
Id Dude:
There you go man, keep as cool as you can
Face piles and piles of trials with smiles
It riles them to believe
That you perceive the web they weave
And keep on thinking free
Street Fightin' Man!
Quick! We need more H1Bs to fill the gap caused by people who will be persuaded by the data to skip a CS education.
We should decline H1B's by >8%
No, Sexconker, it's the H1-B workers who are cash cows for asshole U.S. corporations who keep firing U.S. workers and hiring them, so they can make more money off of destroying the middle class in this country.
This is why you must vote for Bernie (if you're a liberal) or Trump (if you're a conservative). Clinton, Bush and Rubio want exactly the same thing which is to make their corporate masters richer while gutting the middle class. When Disney was laying off their entire IT department and forcing them to train their H1B replacement workers, whose campaign do you think Disney was funding? Hillary and Jeb's. Not Bernie or Trump: Disney hates these guys.
There's nothing Conservative about Trump. He represents the dysfunction present in the most bigoted of the Conservatives, but has no positive qualities.
That's blatantly untrue. He's funny. And has a great hairpiece.
We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
At the rate things are going, I won't even bother to register to vote, let alone vote for any of them, because I don't think any of them are either qualified, or represent my interests.
Are YOU using the TOOL, or is the TOOL using YOU? Think about it!
That's odd. I was told by a recruiter yesterday that there are five software positions open for every developer that is looking in the Twin Cities metro area. I'm also seeing wage inflation to go along with those positions.
Where are you living that you're seeing the opposite?
that the US is going to kick out 8% of the people working in programming jobs in the US who are only there on H1B visa, right?
Right?
We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
So you talked to a recruiter, and he tried to sell you a job. I can't tell whether you're serious or a troll. (I guess that you pass the Turolling Test.) But to further your analogy if you're being sarcastic, it's kinda like going to an empty, weedy old used car lot where the cars are "kept in a garage in the back," talking to a used car salesman and having him tell you that you're going to get "top dollar" for that trade-in, but sign on the line first!
For many nations, their GDP is based primarily on the service sector of the economy; jobs that primarily local based. With globalism, the following axiom holds true "What can be in-sourced or out-sourced will be!" As Americans for most of us, we're too expensive in the global market! That, combined with our national debt, stagflation will remain until we focus on services and skills that can only benefit a local economy. Learning a craft or skilled trade in grey collar work is your best bet to maintaining a middle class job. You know, work that requires tangible results by human hands. If it's producing a product behind a keyboard, that jobs is in direct competition with the global market, and you can't live off an Indian or Chinese low wage. Not going to happen !!
Life is not for the lazy.
For that matter, there's nothing Conservative about the GOP. Fuck that K-Street boy Paul Ryan!
Trump is many things, but he's NOT establishment.
Life is not for the lazy.
Instead of scamming /. why don't you just "short" life, yours in particular
Don't tell me the big mouths lied to us about the talent shortage! /sarc
When you remove the signals, the end result becomes much, MUCH worse.
Does it become... noise?
Chuuch. Preach. Tabernacle.
Amen to that. I was pulling my hair out during the last presidential installation cycle when the RNC was killing Jon Huntsman and Ron Paul by literally breaking laws, rigging the debates (DIAF, Bret Baier), and replacing them with mittens and Paul Ryan. I still remember one Republican chick saying, "Oh, I like Paul Ryan. He's young. He just seems like a leader." She, of course, had a couple of grad degrees and a few years under her belt.
Our species is doomed.
income based student loan repayment plans are good even if you get a job for a few years then you are replied by an H1B then they can't touch your mc job min wage pay.
Stop drooling over PutinHedge. It's not even funny any more.
Good news everyone.
Though the number programming job is in the U.S. will fall 8% in the next decade, the number of programming jobs in New Delhi will rise 120%
Different guy here, though I'm a contractor. Actually, there are plenty of jobs. I also get lots of calls from staffing agents for jobs I can fill that I don't have time for because I'm already employed. As soon as one contract ends I quickly am placed into another one, and my contracts last 1 - 1 1/2 years. I haven't had any trouble keeping this up for the last ten years. This past year I received multiple actual offers that I had to turn down.
24 year old, 1 year of experience, bachelors degree in computer science, in a small city in NYS north of NYC. I applied to 10 software dev jobs 4 months ago. I received 8 offers. I am absolutely no one special. My skill set isn't better than anyone else, my degree isn't from an overly prestigious university, etc.
I understand my experience is anecdotal. But, your analogy doesn't hold up either. If anything a recruiter wants to make you think you have no options, and that you aren't special, so they can negotiate your wage down and make you take their crappy 6 month contract position in Looky Lew, west virginia,
The BLS stats miss the point.
1) The ability to off-shore programming jobs has been a reality for 20 years. It's done nothing but increase my bill rate. Here's the deal. Accenture, IBM, Wipro, etc come in to take care of all the IT needs. On paper the costs are cheaper. Five years later the companies that did off-shore development are typically very unhappy with their work product. Too much re-work, not enough velocity of code getting into prod. Once a offshore company has your entire IT process they can turn the screws and increase bill rates.
I come in with teams that kick out the off-shore units, clean house and usually within a year the problem we have is our backlog doesn't have enough work. We're just too efficient. The reason it's increased my bill rate is companies pulled back from college hire programs. It really creates a problem keeping experience developers in the pipeline. I don't have much competition domestically because the ivy league MBAs that decided to offshore decided not to invest in the next generation workforce. I laugh all the way to the bank.
2) Start Up Factor. You don't need to get hired to make money programing. There are hundreds of thousands of developers making money by releasing their own apps.
Thank you! So tired of seeing H1B's support their own scabbiness. It's all good until someone does it to you!
I keep saying this. In 20 years, compilers and languages will evolve to the point that software engineers will not be needed anymore. It is a dead career path for any kids today. It's sad. But it is the ultimate truth. C level execs want to make costs lower. That means that there will be demand for simpler languages and a plethora of people that can use them. Increase the supply of coders and reduce the demand (through better languages requiring a lower time cost) and you end up with cheap labor. It will be the first "engineering" field to end in unionization. it will have to in order to give meaningful salaries to those suckers stuck in this career.
I'm not discounting what pharmacists do -- they know more about drugs than most doctors. I am saying that they have a very nice, protected work life, the entry into the field and licensure is limited to keep supply low, and demand is high; you can go anywhere you want and get a pharmacy job. If I could tell "19-year-old Me" anything, it would be to study hard and get a job in s profession, rather than fight tooth and nail for the last remaining IT or developer jobs.
The reason CVS and the like haven't removed pharmacists from the stores, beyond liability reasons, is the fact that pharmacy is a licensed profession. It's a profession with a strong political lobby, just like doctors have and lawyers had. (The ABA sold out the legal profession by flooding the job market and allowing offshoring.) This serves as a very important lesson to techies everywhere -- even if you don't form a "union", which I think wouldn't work, we need to work together to stop things like H-1B abuses, offshoring of critical work, and rampant incompetency in the software and systems "profession." I've said it before, IT people and developers need to pool their resources, set up an engineering-style profession, and buy a few favorable laws. I don't know whypeople are so opposed to this - every large company pays for legislation, including laws that reduce employment and salaries for IT/dev.
I think it would be a huge step forward:
- No more idiot snake oil consultants selling magic tools -- I do systems management and can't even count the number of dashboards, data aggregators, etc. that are super-simple tools, get bought for 6-figures, and end up shelfware.
- Salary progression over a whole career, not just the under-40 part.
- Real training (not vendor propaganda)
- While there will always be different levels of talent, the idea of not working with complete morons fresh out of coder bootcamp or vendor certification academies is very appealing.
the end of work visas. Public Education to train local talent. Requirements to hire local talent. You use Unions to lobby gov't and organize voting blocks that can stand up to the corps dollars. You also use Unions to get information out there to voting blocks so people know how to vote. Look at the AARP for a good example of a political organization that protects it's members interests. Their the reason the Right Wing hasn't been able to defund Medicare.
It's a "you can go home, but you can't take the ball" approach to politics. If the corps want to leave they can. The fact is they _don't_ want to leave. The want the best of everything. Hell, they just plain want _everything_ for themselves. That's why it's called Winner Take All. America has more than enough wealth. We've been giving it away to the 1% out of some misplaced notion that if e don't give it up the other guy will take it. Stop that.
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they'll train up for that too if the prices get too high. There are already laws in place to bring cheap blue collar labor in from overseas; mostly in corrupt right wing states in the South but their spread.
Go into medicine. It's the last field that still has a Union (the AMA, who's smart enough to not call themselves a Union).
Hi! I make Firefox Plug-ins. Check 'em out @ https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/youtube-mp3-podcaster/
I can confirm that hiring talented C++ or Java developers in the Twin Cities area is very difficult. It takes us a long time to fill open positions, and headhunters are calling people everyday. And we are losing people to other firms that routinely offer someone a big bump to switch.
You need 1 software developer to manage a team of programmers and feed them requirements. This is a genuine drop in middle class American jobs due to outsourcing. There will be a small increase in the folks who manage the Indians and give them their marching orders...
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when you do what the summary suggests: Hire some local folks to feed the requirements to the offshore guys. The rank and file coder that used to make a decent wage is what's going to drop 8%. Those are a lot of middle class jobs going *poof*...
Hi! I make Firefox Plug-ins. Check 'em out @ https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/youtube-mp3-podcaster/
From TFA:
The government counted 328,600 computer programmers in 2014, but over the next 10 years this number is expected to decline by 8% or 26,500 jobs. ...
Software developers, the largest occupational group in IT, which employs 1.11 million, will increase by 17% or 186,600, over this period.
26,500 loss in "programmers" versus 186,600 gain in "developers". Ooh, what a tragedy.
Guess what, people? You all got trolled. It's funny to see the usual "dey tuk ar jerbs" and "join a union so Jimmy Hoffa can break your kneecaps" types spew out their usual drivel though. Ha!
This is why you must vote for Bernie (if you're a liberal) or Trump (if you are scared of mexicans and muslims).
Trump doesn't give a shit about anything but his own ego. All he cares about is that the spotlight is on him. He'll do anything and say anything to keep that going. If I was going to compare Trump to anyone on the democrat side it would be Hillary. He's just a weather vane. Granted he's a better weather vane than Hillary, but that's all he is.
For that matter, there's nothing Conservative about the GOP.
Sure there is. They are pro-life and anti-gay. Those are pretty conservative positions.
Attempt to create a distinction where there is none, thereby making it seem like they have less of something than they actually have.
What a load of rubbish. People will pay fair local prices if they can afford to, and/or if they have no choice - but of course they want cheaper foreign stuff because they can.
Also, American corporations are not suffering from high labor costs. They are squeezing the middle class because they want more profit. Wages have been stagnant (adjusted for inflation) for 40 years. Benefits and perks are practically nonexistent. Meanwhile profits and productivity are higher than ever, but the gains all went to the top 20%. So please spare us the "we can't afford American labor" whining.
(captcha: diarrhea)
I don't want to be rude, but there's always plenty of junior positions everywhere. You can't really measure the job market by the average number of offers a newly minted graduate has. Even in a somewhat stagnant market, the companies will hire junior people and fire them after a few years to keep the average wage down, so new positions are always available.
English is not my first language. Corrections and suggestions are welcome.
And why couldn't a robot vending machine do your job? It would be a lot cheaper
http://saveie6.com/
I can find an Indian willing to do your job for 60k. 220k is too much money for a non executive position and a welder who is skilled can work in the oil fields for 100k
http://saveie6.com/
Very difficult. For the 1st embarrassing time of my career I got demoted back. I kept pointing to problems and solutions which is what us non professional managerial types do. I made very powerful enemy's who wanted to be told what to hear and stressed myself crazy. It's not for everyone
http://saveie6.com/
Dude I was told on Slashdot to change my major from computer information systems to business as by 2015 no one would program anymore. WORST mistake EVER! If grads with 0 years experience can pull 70k while managers with 10 years pull 55k I think that advise is full of it if you don't mind me saying so
http://saveie6.com/
We are having the same problem in Wisconsin. My company is now going to India for Java developers because we can't get them. In Wisconsin there is 1 Java programmer for every 10 Java positions open. The majority of the jobs are in Madison and Milwaukee areas though. Not many people want to move to Central Wisconsin for a Java position. We have been recruiting right from university's locally and training them. Knowing that 1 in 3 will probably leave after 2-3 years of getting some experience. But at that level they don't get paid the "big bucks" so it's a risk. Some will stay some won't but that is the business of IT....
There are more than just those people running. What you're saying is that you're too lazy to care who gets chosen, that you're fine with anyone, including those people. You can submit a blank ballot (never tried that on an electronic voting machine before...) or vote for some obscure person. Not doing one of those two things means you support everyone else. That needs repeating:
NOT VOTING MEANS YOU'RE SUPPORTING EVERYONE YOU DON'T WANT ELECTED.
Get off your lazy ass and vote.
This is already happening in Canada: http://www.cbc.ca/beta/news/canada/montreal/quebec-pharmacists-granted-more-power-by-government-1.3121547
My wife is a pharmacist. I think you underestimate what a pharmacist contributes to the equation. A pharmacy tach does not usually have the same problem solving ability as a tech. The education requirement for a PharmD vs a tech isn't remotely comparable.
Hey my family is from Looky Lew WV ! It's a great place for a dead end career.
Harrison's Postulate - "For every action there is an equal and opposite criticism"
You lost me at Brogrammers.
Why not just scream cisgendered asshole at everyone?
Go be a profession victim somewhere else, the rest of us don't want to talk to someone who's head is completely up their own gigantic ass.
Pharmacy tech vs Pharmacist...
Learn the difference.
Get off your lazy ass and vote.
Listen, asshole: If you don't get a statement meant to convey APATHY when you see it, then you're probably not very clever, so STFU.
Are YOU using the TOOL, or is the TOOL using YOU? Think about it!
A robot can't answer questions about the drug, evaluate whether or not it's right do the patient beyond what the MD knows, and legally every Rx in the county has to be handled by a pharmacist, even when counted by a robot.
Fuck you, asshole, because I can't fucking buy ANYTHING at ANY price if I can't even get a GODDAMNED JOB because some fatass 1%er decides his profit margin is more important than the entire country he lives in, and YOU are probably one of the goddamned cheap-ass unskilled undereducated H1-B jackasses who get imported over here to put better educated, experienced U.S. workers out of a job, and then you send your money back overseas so it doesn't benefit even the local economy any, so how about you shove it up your ass and go back to your shithole 3rd world country?
This is why you must vote for Bernie (if you're a liberal) or Trump (if you're a conservative).
I want to vote for the guy that supports doing away with the two party system, reduces all terms for elected officials by 50%, creates an Instant voter recall process for all offices, Changes the law so that An independent commission has to approve all salary increases for members of congress/senate based on reviews of individual performance, sets a 12 year career limit for politicians (Cumulative number of years in House/Senate), mandates that all elections be proportional representation based on popular vote Instant Runoff Voting, AND Restricts public access to congressional votes as necessary, in order to conceal from/prevent special interest groups from discovering whether or not specific members of congress voted for or against their special interest.
(In other words, do away with the excessive bit of transparecy that enables this pathological situation of representatives cowtowing....)
I am torn between Bernie/Trump, because no candidate really serves us. I am Pro Economic Liberty, I am against Institutionalized Theft or Tyranny of the majority, AND Pro-Personal-Freedom.
The Democrat party claims to support personal liberty, but then members go off and favor bullshit like "Gun Control.", And Health Care "Reform" that renders more people UNinsured than before; their members don't do a thing to counter privacy violations by the feds, they do nothing to reign in abuses by the TSA and the IRS "investigating" groups because if their political ideas... The Republican party claims to support economic liberty, but then they allow injustices like Absurd government spending, their party members in Congress lack the fortitude to actually act on their convictions and do what's necessary, they let Perpetual Copyright Extension slide, they do nil about Civil Forfeiture abuses, Patent System Abuses, and more, to go on and on, without lifting a finger.
Also, I feel both parties are highly hypocritical, and lately, all the representatives of both major parties seem to be cowards.
Otherwise... Please explain why Obama is so impotent and incompetent when dealing with important issues, and yet, nobody will stand up to him, not even members of the opposing party?
He represents the dysfunction present in the most bigoted of the Conservatives
I think the "conservatives" in government may be closet liberals. The congress do not even attempt major strides when they have a majority. They support the other party by yielding to them.
At the rate things are going, I won't even bother to register to vote, let alone vote for any of them, because I don't think any of them are either qualified, or represent my interests.
I think you'll find that is actually interpreted as "I'm happy for any of them to represent me".
You forgot an important data field. Which best describes your salary?: under 40K, under 60K, under 80K, under 100K, under 200K
Yes, that's a beginner's mistake. We all did that. It's a learning process.
What you have to learn is who is the biggest fish in the pond and then simply latch on to him, nod when he nods and you're set. For about a month you have a hard time shaving without cutting your throat because you can't stand that asshole looking back at you from the mirror, but it gets better at the end of the month when the paycheck arrives.
We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
It is time to stop programmers and software tech jobs in general from being replaced with H-1B visa immigrants... The outsourcing is commerce. And it swings back and forth. But H-1B visa use is for when there are no domestic qualified workers. We have plenty of unemployed in the software tech fields.
My wife is a pharmacist. I think you underestimate what a pharmacist contributes to the equation. A pharmacy tach does not usually have the same problem solving ability as a tech. The education requirement for a PharmD vs a tech isn't remotely comparable.
I've worked with a lot of pharmacy techs and pharmacists, and agree completely that their level of education and problem solving capabilities are not remotely comparable. That is absolutely not in question here. The question is merely are pharmacy technicians good enough?
Walgreens for instance started a push back in 2013 to elevate the responsibilities of pharmacy technicians. This has given their pharmacists more face to face time with their patients, but it has also pushed the limits of what pharmacy technicians can be expected to do. For the time being their focus is on improving customer service, but they are also positioning themselves for a time where health care costs are dramatically cut. If pharmacists are mostly just providing better customer service instead of performing more necessary tasks, they can be more easily displaced. Those new Walgreens desks where the pharmacists talk with patients could soon become kiosks where you talk to pharmacists in a calling center.
When I went to pharmacy technology seminars and trade shows, the primary selling point of the software and hardware was reduced payroll costs. Reduced drug waste was minor because hospitals generally already do a good job with that by employing more pharmacists and pharmacy techs. And the vast majority of those payroll cuts went towards pharmacists, not pharmacy technicians. Usually the staff reduction was done through attrition instead of job cuts so there is less resistance from existing pharmacists on staff.
-- All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing. -- Edmund Burke
IT jobs in the future will require a higher level of skill. It will be required that IT employees are proficient developers. If IT jobs increase, those that fill those positions will be developers anyways. Most in IT cannot learn to code proficiently; which is likely why they are in IT. If you disagree, then you are likely employed in an IT department that is ass backwards; lacks vision; and cannot see the writing on the wall.
Not to mention, code can be programmed pretty much anywhere, up/downloaded. Too many cheap labor imports taking jobs.
I find it surprising that some of you don't recognize apathy and hyperbole when you see it. Will I vote for someone? Yes. Will I like it? Highly unlikely, I think every single last one of them is a jackass in one way or another. Also, I reject your entire premise, I don't want ANY of them 'representing' me. I'd just as soon that they all were on the same plane at the same time, and the plane crashes and kills them all; the country would probably be better off in the long run. That being said where is my 'none of the above/no confidence' check-box on the ballot? I think we desperately need one, so we can toss the lot of them out, and repeat the whole process until we get down to someone who may not be able to run fast enough to escape being elected, but that won't be a total jackass. If such a person exists. While I'm at it I'll close my eyes and wish real, real hard that Santa Claus actually does exist, and that magic is real, because that's about as likely to happen too.
Are YOU using the TOOL, or is the TOOL using YOU? Think about it!
..oh, and one more thing, before you even say it: yes, I'm angry, and if you're not angry at the political mess in this country right now? Then I have to wonder why.
Are YOU using the TOOL, or is the TOOL using YOU? Think about it!
Nice try, GLOBALIST SCUM. How much are you being paid to say these things? 50 rupees/hr?
We are too expensive.....
No. We are more expensive, sure, but not too expensive.
It is really stupid to allow ( and I'm not talking govt intervention ) all these jobs to flow out and be replaced by "grey market, low wage" jobs.
Who will be the buyers when all these jobs and the wages thereto have been shipped elsewhere?
American Corporations, you are selling your future. You, personally, wont be welcome in the countries you are sending the jobs to, and they will eventually exclude you ( as corporations and people ) from participating, once things hit a certain point.
In the long run, wages will equalize. The countries we are sending the jobs to will gain economic power, political power, and will bring back more authoritarian dealings with people, there will be less personal liberty, less freedom, less happiness.
Sad.
emt 377 emt 4
Well, I don't live in your country, so probably better that I don't express my opinion.
I've a friend, head ruby developer, all their other developers are in other continents
Problem with having "None the above" is it doesn't actually lead to any sort of clear action. Like, what are you actually going to do with that figure... say 30% vote "None" and gets more votes than any other candidate. What then? You keep the old guy? You have nothing at all and plead for someone else to stand? What happens in the meantime?
I see alot of (justified) anger or apathy, but never any clear (realistic) suggestion of what to do about it. The suggestions range from "shoot them all" to "we should re-think democracy and wouldn't it be, mm, nicer if we all just, mm, got along and came to agreement", but none actually get down to the issue of how do you command a leadership of millions of people.
It can take years to find a single competent programmer. What makes you think you can easily replace them? I'm not arguing about skill distributions around the world. I'm sure there are just as many good Indian programmer per-capita. What I'm arguing is that good programmers are nearly impossible to find. Big companies have such a hard time finding good programmers that they will buy out an entire company for the sole purpose of getting their programming talent, then liquidate the company.
Individual skills may be a bell-curve, but individual skills multiply with others, creating a power curve in talent. The top 20% do 50% of the work and the top 4% do 25% of the work. Even among the elite, the power-curve mostly survives. It's like a fractal. No matter how deep you dig, the top 20% contribute about 50% of the total.
I don't consider myself the best in anything and I know many are far better than I. But a State came to our company saying that the last 5 companies said what they wanted was impossible, and we were their last hope. We were the last because we charge the most. Even within our company, all of the other teams turned down the project saying it was too hard. It took it on, designing all of the infrastructure by myself, and we got one other junior programmer from another team to make a simple yet functional front end. I hate front-ends. We not only delivered ahead of time, but under budget, and the State said we did so well, that they actually passed a law requiring such high quality because they now knew it was possible. Everything just worked and new features had turn-arounds measured in days, not weeks or months.
I was strait up told by a VP that the CTO said it could not have been done without me. Gave me a 30% raise. I don't make a west coast income, but I make plenty where I am, I enjoy my job, the people are nice, and we're the best in our business.
It seems to me if they were truly desperate, they would be looking all over the US, and to import people from Canada. Looking in the next state is hardly trying.
Laws are rules for the court, but merely a bottom bar to hit for life. Think beyond laws in your actions always.
Bullshit.
You missed out. The timing was fortunate and I was able to buy a bunch of hard assets in 2007-2009. You're not the only one who's thinking along the lines of what you're thinking (a few friends are actually getting *more* into franchise ownerships, for example) so if you're serious about it then you might want to get in on it soon. Or take a giant leap and play in the market...
"So long and thanks for all the fish."
I vote. I have for 40 years. I vote third party - even if I don't want 'em to win. Why? I know that they're not going to win. However, if I do it long enough and enough people do it with me then the number crunchers are eventually going to notice. Then, and only then, will we have a chance at a third party candidate and *maybe* break this two-party system a little bit.
I might be a Libertarian but my party hasn't fielded an electable presidential candidate, well, ever... I'll vote Green/Independent, Socialist, Communist, Satanist, or even for a friggen dog. I'm not scared. It's not like they're going to win. But, eventually, there will be enough of us who are sick of the shit and stop voting for the two major parties and we can actually consider getting some true representative democracy going.
But no... Nobody listens to a David. I don't have pithy sayings suited best for bumper stickers. I'll probably be dead before this happens but I'm patient.
"So long and thanks for all the fish."
I'm clearly not a Republican or a Democrat and I'm not white. Sadly, I had to add that. Why? To answer your question in your last sentence. This is just an observation, but...
They tried. They got called racists.
"So long and thanks for all the fish."
they tuk er jerbs!!
Yeah, digging shit out of a clogged toilet is way better than programming. You sir have obviously never worked a trade. Working odd hours, weekends, holidays, and sometimes having no work are what you get in a trade. Oh, and no vacation, healthcare, or any other benefits are included.
Kids: Go into coding only if you enjoy it _and_ are good at it. Put CS studies on top. In that case you will have decent opportunities and decent pay. All the mediocre and bad coders (and there are a lot out there, as they are the vast majority) will become working poor in the near future.
Most ACs are not even worth the keystrokes to insult them. Be generically insulted by this and ignored otherwise.
Don't forget transportation costs. Oil is cheap right now, but that can change. Some mines in the strait of Hormuz, for example. It might be that gas might spike like 2008, and if a 2-3 times jump in price was bad, how about a 10-20x spike, which could happen pretty quickly.
Having the ability to make something or have a trade is good. Yes, the job at punching a button and having Ansible go and do the work is a nice thing... but if the economy tanks to 1929 levels, having a farm and producing or fixing things that people need will be important as well. It might be that one might have to start making 1920s-1960s style tractors and automobiles because access to the latest and greatest chips for ECMs may not be allowed (a China-led trade embargo on the US, perhaps.) In any case, metal shop skills, plumbing, electrician, HVAC, and other items are always needed. You can't offshore the guy who wires up the 120 circuits, nor can you outsource the lawyer who is in the courtroom.
It is wise to have a good "on grid" set of skills, and a good "off-grid" set. Even if one's "off-grid" set of skills is something one wouldn't think about, such as a good musician, entertainer, or teacher. Having the ability to fall back on a community is important, and community, as a whole, is something lacking here in the US (especially with the political races trying their best to wedge and divide everyone.)
The first thread completely disappeared. One message there was very informative (although moderated as a troll), And now the whole thread is missing.
The weather here has a bad reputation. Aside from that, it's a very good place to live.
"When you have eliminated the unacceptable, whatever is left, however improbable, must be the truthiness" - Holmes
I had to look up you comment history.
Too bad you aren't consistent.
John McAfee 'It was like that time I hired that Bangkok prostitute; to do my taxes, while I fucked my accountant'
I've seen the opposite in the last 10 years - companies less and less willing to offshore, and insisting developers are local and work onsite every day.
I'm not Libertarian, even if I've been told I have leanings in that direction.. but I also have some leanings in all directions; I'm registered as Independent (and sometimes as 'None of the above', and then I leave the line blank, just to thumb my nose at the whole thing and make someone wonder about it). More than once I've considered voting for some third-party candidate, but there's a problem with that: I know damned well that someone, somewhere, is keeping track of who is voting for whom, and if I vote for someone who is running as, say, Libertarian, then my vote is saying "I agree with everything this candidate stands for", which may or may not be true -- and you have to admit, some of the third-party candidates, very often, are bigger whack-jobs than Republican or Democrat candidates. I'd have to do tons of background research on any of them just to make sure that there isn't some gigantic red flag on them, like they believe in pederasty, or plural marriage, or has been associated with some seditionist militia, or whatever, that would end up with me on some FBI watchlist.
On the off-chance this guy is reading this: Having a 'None of the Above' choice on a ballot, would serve as a vote of 'No Confidence' in any of the candidates on the ballot, and if the majority votes 'None of the Above', then all the candidates would be disqualified, and the campaign process starts all over again, with and entirely different set of candidates; the person currently occupying the office being elected for would continue on an interim basis, until someone the majority can agree on actually gets elected. It would reduce the 'lesser of many evils' problem of elections.
Are YOU using the TOOL, or is the TOOL using YOU? Think about it!
Your vote should not be associated, in any way, with your name. It should be truly anonymous. If it isn't then you have bigger problems. Where I vote, it's not an issue. It's paper ballots still. ;-) Complete with a big, locked, wooden box that was probably built back in the 1940s or something.
Anyhow, you probably fit one of the many schools of Libertarianism. I believe we've interacted enough to know that I'm actually (mostly) sane and I'm a Libertarian. There are *many* different schools within the Party. I am kind of surprised but the Wikipedia article is not bad. It's worth a look, if you're interested.
I'm a Classic Libertarian (self-titled, I can do that) as I find it simpler to say than to express my displeasure at Randians and Republicans. I'm fairly close to what is known as a Socialist Libertarian. In fact, much of my ideals would indicate that I'm a socialist except I'm not. Unlike Socialists, I used reason and logic to reach my conclusions - as opposed to emoting my way to a decision.
I've got a minute, I'll give you an example or two...
I have my key hanging outside my house door, if you know where to look for it. I'm many miles away but, strangely enough, no one has stolen anything though I often have friends who make use of my game room while I am not home. Some even make use of my garage to work on their own vehicles. Why? Well, I have insurance. I'd rather you use a key than break the door down and steal my stuff.
I support single-payer health care. Why? It's cheaper to prevent than it is to cure. It's cheaper to buy in bulk. Healthy people can, now that I mostly just invest, make me more money than sick people can. Healthy people can pay more in taxes and keep the government going along at a better pace than normal.
I support inexpensive, perhaps State funded (in certain areas and with caveats) higher learning. Why? An educated populous is a more innovative populous and staying ahead of the game is essential if we wish to improve or maintain our station in life.
See, I don't think people "deserve" those things. In fact, just the opposite. I think they don't deserve them but they should have access to them simply because it makes us more likely to succeed, acquire wealth, acquire power, and to be able to act on our liberties more easily. The more wealth you have, the easier it is to be free. The more assets you have, the more likely you can enjoy the liberties you have. ;-) You'd probably fit, fairly well, under the Libertarian tent for it is broad and welcoming. Me? I'm usually trying to be logical (which also includes emoting) and try to base my beliefs on logic and reason. I am a Libertarian because that's who I am. I am not a Libertarian because that's what the party is. I am, for the most part, really an Independent as I'm not one to strictly insist on a party line - I am not a zealot. However, it's "close enough" but has the varied caveats.
"So long and thanks for all the fish."
...if by "they", you mean Rick Santorum and Scalia.
The rest of the Republicans couldn't care less.
Your vote should not be associated, in any way, with your name.
In a perfect world, yes, however..
It should be truly anonymous. If it isn't then you have bigger problems.
That's the thing: I trust the federal U.S. government (or to be fair, various parts of it; otherwise it's like saying 'all Chinese are bad' or 'all Muslims are bad' when what you mean to say is 'the Chinese government is mostly bad' and 'some so-called Muslims are bad, but they're only Muslims in name, not in actions') about as far as I can throw it. Various three-letter agencies are up to their elbows in data collected on natural-born U.S. citizens, demonstrably so, so I assume that they're getting into who is voting for who and what, as data to add to their 'profiling' capabilities.
I'll have to read your comment more carefully later on and do some research.. but I'll be honest with you, I hate being 'categorized' and pigeon-holed, which is the smaller part I don't usually mention about why I don't consort with any political party. Eventually they all do something that rubs me the wrong way.
Are YOU using the TOOL, or is the TOOL using YOU? Think about it!
Then, by all means, remain Independent. That doesn't mean you wouldn't be welcomed under the Libertarian tent. Hell, we've got a bunch of Republicans under the tent already (they're not really welcome but we can't just kick 'em out). So, it's not like the label really matters.
I'd like to convince them to leave but I'd never kick them out. Once upon a time we were recognized as being the crazy leftist party. Somehow, we've become the crazy rightist party - at least in perception. I suspect it's that we've let anyone with a voice and a microphone speak for us and it'd be a bit awkward if we didn't. I do wish they'd form parties with more accurate names as many of them aren't the least bit concerned with liberty and seem inclined to put business interests in front of the individual or commons.
It's things like that which make me remember that Serenity Prayer thing that the drunks say. I just strip out the word God and I'm good to go.
"So long and thanks for all the fish."
we've got a bunch of Republicans under the tent already
You know, if that means they're not backing Trump, then it's worth whatever you might have to bear, in my opinion. Trump is an extinction-level event for humanity just waiting to happen. The only good thing he's made happen is he's brought the real hardcore racists, bigots, and wingnuts come out of the shadows, so we know who all of them are now.
I'll still go re-read some text on libertarianism in it's various flavors, and (attempt to) vet the candidates under that flag. I think it's time for me to get off the fence, anyway. What I always say is, "If what you're doing doesn't work, try something else, repeat until success". There will be some facets of my personality that will still cluck their tongue at me for 'wasting' a perfectly good vote, but on the other hand, I'll at least feel like my hands are clean; when whoever it is in the White House does something monumentally stupid, I'll be able to put up my hands and say "Hey, I didn't vote for so-and-so, don't blame me!".
Are YOU using the TOOL, or is the TOOL using YOU? Think about it!
Heh, that is true.
For that matter, there's nothing Conservative about the GOP.
This is a perfect instance of changing the facts to fit your views. Nobody likes inconvenient truths; that's not a right- or left-wing thing. The facts and evidence say that the GOP is Conservative.
Just because the U.S. is a republic does not mean it is not a democracy. Democracy/republic are not mutually exclusive.
We're stuck in a two-party system. I don't believe we'll ever get out of it in our lifetime, unless something catastrophic happens.
Just because the U.S. is a republic does not mean it is not a democracy. Democracy/republic are not mutually exclusive.
YOU ARE PRO BOLD.
Just because the U.S. is a republic does not mean it is not a democracy. Democracy/republic are not mutually exclusive.
A robot can't answer questions about the drug, evaluate whether or not it's right do the patient beyond what the MD knows
Soon it will...
Just because the U.S. is a republic does not mean it is not a democracy. Democracy/republic are not mutually exclusive.
Yet we have a job that pays 220k.
Just because the U.S. is a republic does not mean it is not a democracy. Democracy/republic are not mutually exclusive.
I'm not sure what you're talking about, I'm recruited in 3 markets (Texas, North East and CA) every week between 3-6 jobs, but I have a great job now so I haven't jumped. I would say the cream rises and doesn't see the same problems. If you're good at what you do the outlook is different.
Which just verifies what the last AC said.
It would break term limits and is illegal even on an interim basis
$200,000 a year and you can get anybody you need. If you cannot pay that, you have want, not need.
SJW: a person who perceives an injustice, and while correcting it, commits a greater injustice.
The software company I worked for uses the existing developers to maintain and enhance the core of the main product. Anything new is developed in cheap, eastern European countries like Ukraine or Slovenia. They fly analysts out to do the talk to customers part as well as develop the specs and work with the programmers. So it's a case of the entire function is outsourced, not just the programming. This is mainly so the analysts are linguistically compatible.
Only boring people are ever bored.
He is having fun. Bettering his brand recognition too. But we have lots of sociopaths running. Why settle for he-thought-he-was? But if he is scripted then I am greatly impressed.
Two party? Can u name both. We in a one party system with 2 different 'wings' pretending to have differences on topics such as abortion or immigration, while the real issues are ignored (debt timebomb, constant undeclared unconstitutional wars, supporting foreign dictators and funding terrorists, loss of liberties, militarized police state, surveillance). All the issues that actually matter are treated the same way by both wings of the 1 party.
SO if I can't major in Computer science anymore to get rich, what the fuck do I major in?