Slashdot Mirror


Tiny Vermont Brings Food Industry To Its Knees On GMO Labels (ap.org)

schwit1 writes: General Mills' announcement on Friday that it will start labeling products that contain genetically modified ingredients to comply with a Vermont law shows food companies might be throwing in the towel, even as they hold out hope Congress will find a national solution. Tiny Vermont is the first state to require such labeling, effective July 1. Its fellow New England states of Maine and Connecticut have passed laws that require such labeling if other nearby states put one into effect. The U.S. Senate voted 48-49 Wednesday against a bill that would have blocked such state laws. The food industry is holding out hope that Congress will prevent states from requiring such labeling. Some companies say they plan to follow Vermont's law, while others are considering pulling their products from the small state.

740 comments

  1. Why conceal it? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Insightful

    If they're happy with it, if it has advantages they can sell the consumers, then they should sell it to consumers on its advantages.

    Why would you try to conceal GMO products from the consumer? It's confirmation that the makers of GMO products have something to hide!

    1. Re:Why conceal it? by MadCat221 · · Score: 5, Insightful

      For the same reason that people find it a bad idea to self-identify as "liberal" or "socialist". Reactionary types have poisoned the word in the popular vernacular.

    2. Re:Why conceal it? by ArmoredDragon · · Score: 5, Insightful

      They aren't concealing anything. Food manufacturers already make it a point to label it non-GMO if it isn't, because they know that people who follow the food religion will prefer it, even if it means paying more. The same applies to kosher and halal labels.

      Anyways, requiring a GMO label is intended for nothing else than to stigmatize. It is every bit as asinine as the California proposal a few years back to require cell phones have a radiation output level, which is retarded because cell phones emit all of zero sieverts, but some dumb fucks think it's a wonderful idea to have to put manufacturers in the position of making phones that emit less EM energy, and for no good reason whatsoever.

      This is the same plan as those wanting GMO labeling, not to mention that fighting GMO food is dumb and even counterproductive from an environmental perspective.

    3. Re:Why conceal it? by sirsnork · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Why do you think it stigmatizes anything?

      Everyone putting food on the shelf in that state will be required to do this as far as I understand, so _everyone_ is in the same boat.

      This gives consumers the choice. If they want to buy more expensive non GMO options they will be able to make that decision.

      The fear the companies have is that there will be non GMO products available at the same price they have been selling theirs at, and everyone will buy that instead.

      If everyone is using the same base GMO ingredients, then no one has anything to worry about and everyone will keep buying exactly what they are already buying

      --

      Normal people worry me!
    4. Re:Why conceal it? by goose-incarnated · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Anyways, requiring a GMO label is intended for nothing else than to stigmatize. It is every bit as asinine as the California proposal a few years back to require cell phones have a radiation output level, which is retarded because cell phones emit all of zero sieverts, but some dumb fucks think it's a wonderful idea to have to put manufacturers in the position of making phones that emit less EM energy, and for no good reason whatsoever.

      Regardless, if you'd rather pull the product than relabel it then you know in advance that your product can't survive with an accurate label. People are stupid, but tough - that's just the way the market is.

      --
      I'm a minority race. Save your vitriol for white people.
    5. Re:Why conceal it? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Because if their law is like the one proposed here in WA, it will require separate fields, farm equipment, storage, trucks, and packaging equipment to guarantee that the non-GMO food isn't contaminated by the GMO food. Also, even if you did all of that, a lot of non-GMO would still be legally required to have a GMO label because of the required space between them. On my parent's farm, if it had passed with their neighbors on all four sides that grow GMO, they'd have to label their non-GMO apples as GMO because of the required no-grow area between GMO and non-GMO plants.

    6. Re: Why conceal it? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It was sad that didn't pass. This shithole of a state is ruled by Republicans.

    7. Re: Why conceal it? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      All of that extra equipment and buildings would have stimulated the economy so of course those Republicans killed it.

    8. Re:Why conceal it? by ArmoredDragon · · Score: 2

      Why do you think it stigmatizes anything?

      Seriously? /facepalm

      https://www.youtube.com/watch?...

    9. Re: Why conceal it? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      One study showed the GMO law would have increased the labor costs for food by nearly 30%. We really needed those jobs.

    10. Re:Why conceal it? by ArmoredDragon · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Regardless, if you'd rather pull the product than relabel it then you know in advance that your product can't survive with an accurate label. People are stupid, but tough - that's just the way the market is.

      The label isn't less accurate if it's omitted. Whether or not it's GMO is completely immaterial to the product. Another analogy is requiring mention of whether or not somebody died in a house prior to you selling it. Mentioning that fact will probably reduce its value, however if they never find out then there's no harm at all, and even if they do, there's still no harm, other than maybe it bothers the buyer's religious view, but nonetheless all 50 states in the US have laws preventing civil suits against people who don't mention this (or other immaterial facts, like whether a previous resident had AIDS.)

    11. Re:Why conceal it? by ChromeAeonium · · Score: 5, Informative

      Because facts without context are deceptive. Evolution is 'just' a theory, agree with me? So why not label that on textbooks? Hey, it's a fact, you don't want to hide facts do you? The thing is, your average person has no idea what genetic engineering really is or what it means. Giving people one small detail, without telling the complete story, without explaining the details, knowing full well that years of misinformation are going to result in them thinking something that is not so, is not informative. It is a lie of omission, plain and simple. These laws are forcing lies because no one stopped to ask people who actually know the science behind the crops what they thing.

      And don't try to tell me that it is being hidden; that's another intellectually lazy excuse. A quick Google search tells you what is and is not GE, and how. Corn, soy, cotton, canola, papaya, summer squash, sugar beet, alfalfa, and soon apple and potato, with traits like insect resistance (Cry and Vip genes), herbicide tolerance (C4 EPSPS and bar genes), virus resistance (PRSV-CP and WMV-CP genes), drought tolerance (CspB), and soon consumer oriented traits. Yeah, it isn't on the label, but neither is any of the other things we do to crops that you don't know about. I've never seen head of lettuce as containing the Nr gene for aphid resistance bred in from the wild species Lactuca serriola. I've never seen a product containing watermelon labeled as containing an artificially produced polyploid, as seedless watermelons are. I've never seen an apple labeled as being a bud sport, a somatic mutant derived form a chance shoot, as many apples in stores are. I've enver seen citrus labeled as having been developed through radiation induced mutagenesis, yet that happens. I've never seen corn be labeled as having been produced via doubled haploid hybridization, yet that is also a thing. I could go on but you get the point. Every plant in the grocery store has a story. Genetic engineering is just one part of that.

      Now, what you are asking is why food producers don't want to single out one part of a much larger story, one that has been stigmatized by years of scientifically baseless fearmongering, knowing that your average person is completely ignorant of the history and present science of crops and agriculture, and slap a label on that doesn't actually tell you anything meaningful (genetically modified how and why? Label doesn't say). Be real here, they have a very good reason for it. This push for labeling is just the GMO denialists' response to being completely wrong about the safety and benefits of genetic engineering. They lost on the facts, now they're trying to make it look like genetic engineering needs labels, because if they're so safe why hide it? Of course, these same people then point to Europe and say 'if they're so safe why do they need labels?'

      I'll believe this is about honesty and transparency whenever the anti-GMO crowd demands that non-GMO corn be labeled as having higher mycotoxin levels. I'm not holding my breath for that though.

    12. Re:Why conceal it? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If they're happy with it, if it has advantages they can sell the consumers, then they should sell it to consumers on its advantages.

      Why would you try to conceal GMO products from the consumer? It's confirmation that the makers of GMO products have something to hide!

      Free market my ass. Companies don't want a free market, they want a captive market and uninformed consumers.
      Nice victory for Vermont. Hope California follows the path as well.

    13. Re:Why conceal it? by DNS-and-BIND · · Score: 0, Troll

      The history of the 20th century finds plenty of reasons those words were poisoned, and it has nothing to do with media bias. It has everything to do with the depraved hearts of socialists and the utterly ruthless way they went about implementing socialism. I think you really don't know your own history. You need to hit the books. For the short version, one picture is worth a thousand words.

      --
      Shutting down free speech with violence isn't fighting fascism. It IS fascism!
    14. Re: Why conceal it? by ArmoredDragon · · Score: 1

      Actually Democrats are the worst offenders in this department:

      http://www.politico.com/magazi...

    15. Re:Why conceal it? by dougmc · · Score: 1, Insightful

      This cartoon tells why we shouldn't mandate labeling of them.

      *No* dangers have been found. None. And these foods (well, the GMO plants that went into them) are among the most heavily tested on the planet.

      Even the nutritional characteristics are the same -- and if they weren't, the FDA would require labeling, because then it would actually be different.

      This labeling makes even *less* sense than the Prop 65 warnings in California -- at least there, the chemicals in question really have been found to cause cancer (though in things bearing that ubiquitous warning label usually have the chemicals in question in utterly minuscule amounts that are many orders of magnitude lower than what's been found to cause even the smallest problems, or they're in things that aren't consumed by humans at all. (You wouldn't eat a Disneyland, would you? (Note that I didn't say "eat at Disneyland", but instead "eat Disneyland itself".)

    16. Re:Why conceal it? by ChromeAeonium · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Regardless, if you'd rather pull the product than relabel it then you know in advance that your product can't survive with an accurate label.

      How do you think it would affect sales if organic products had to 'accurately' say that they were grown in 400-700 nm radiation?

    17. Re:Why conceal it? by Kohath · · Score: 1

      Why bully people for not mentioning something irrelevant?

    18. Re:Why conceal it? by Tyr07 · · Score: 1, Informative

      They want to conceal it because they have genetic modifications they want to make that increase profitability, not things that benefit the consumer.

      E.G They make it heavier / larger by having it absorb more water. Nutritional value either remains the same or decreases, but you pay more.

      How does this benefit you? It doesn't. You pay more for something that has more water in it. Doesn't have more calories or anything.

    19. Re:Why conceal it? by WaffleMonster · · Score: 1

      Anyways, requiring a GMO label is intended for nothing else than to stigmatize.

      Translation: People are stupid and must not be allowed to make their own decisions.

      is every bit as asinine as the California proposal a few years back to require cell phones have a radiation output level, which is retarded because cell phones emit all of zero Sieverts

      So do Microwave ovens.

      but some dumb fucks think it's a wonderful idea to have to put manufacturers in the position of making phones that emit less EM energy, and for no good reason whatsoever.

      Less EM = increased battery life

    20. Re:Why conceal it? by imidan · · Score: 5, Insightful

      I'm conflicted over this. I agree that the label is intended to stigmatize. But I can't quite see that we shouldn't have them. The people who want the label to be there want it because it's scary sounding and they hope it will dissuade people from buying food that contains GMOs. And those people want to undermine the GMO food industry for a lot of stupid, superstitious, bullshit reasons.

      But I do have objections to GMO food. My objections revolve mainly around two things: intellectual property rights and monocultures. I don't think it's a good strategy for our species for corporations to "own" and "license" the right to plant certain seeds. Also, agricultural monocultures can open us up to harm when some plant pest, pathogen, or disease latches on to the monoculture and potentially causes crop failure because our crops are all genetically identical. (The latter problem is possible without GMOs, but is enhanced by GMOs.)

      The labels are factual, but when people are dissuaded from buying GMO foods because of the label, they're just buying in to a superstition that GMOs are bad. The people advocating for labels are doing it for the wrong reasons, but I do think we need to put some real thought into how we incorporate GMO foods into our food supply. I'd just rather we did it for the right reasons, because the way we're going now, we're having the wrong conversations about the dangers of GMOs.

    21. Re:Why conceal it? by imidan · · Score: 1

      Anyways, requiring a GMO label is intended for nothing else than to stigmatize.

      Translation: People are stupid and must not be allowed to make their own decisions.

      Actually: people are stupid and will make decisions based upon spurious information and superstition. People buying food still get to make their own decisions when there is GMO labeling. It's just more likely that they'll make decisions that aren't in their interests based upon their senseless bias against GMOs.

    22. Re:Why conceal it? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

      You might be surprised to learn that "socialism" is not a dirty word in most of the first world. There are many political parties across the globe that use terms like "social" and "liberal" in their names with no shame... including Germany, the very nation depicted in your picture. I think it's entirely fair to say that American media bears at least some responsibility for that particular stigma's continued existence at home.

    23. Re:Why conceal it? by ChromeAeonium · · Score: 4, Informative

      Why do you think it stigmatizes anything?

      I can't imagine why. Where have you been for the past two decades? Have you really missed the controversy, fearmongering, lies, and generally unscientific bollocks that lead up to this? This push for labeling is not coming from plant & agricultural scientists, and for good reason. It is coming from people who already stigmatize GE crops and wish to do so further.

    24. Re:Why conceal it? by imidan · · Score: 1

      At least in cereal grains, it doesn't work that way. Grains are paid out based upon analysis of nutritional content including protein, and not purely by weight. I don't know, it may work that way for fruits and vegetables, but not for wheat and corn. And wheat and corn are usually genetically modified crops.

    25. Re:Why conceal it? by ChromeAeonium · · Score: 1

      There is no genetically engineered wheat on the market. As for fruits and vegetables, well yeah farmers water before harvest for applicable crops but that's got bugger all to do with genetic engineering.

    26. Re:Why conceal it? by Dog-Cow · · Score: 0, Troll

      We have monocultures without GMO. No GMO intellectual property rights have ever caused any farmer any problems, anywhere.

      If you fall for FUD, you're a willfully ignorant savage, and you deserve food poisoning from your precious non-GMO vegetables.

    27. Re:Why conceal it? by Jack9 · · Score: 1

      Yeah, why have ingredients on food at all? Why give a ticket for speeding on an empty road?

      People expect the state to know and disclose information about food. That's just the current state of society. That's why.

      This isn't a logical decision, it's a societal movement that will (probably) subside in a generation or so. That's not right or wrong, it's an interest elevated to the political level and now the legal level.

      --

      Often wrong but never in doubt.
      I am Jack9.
      Everyone knows me.
    28. Re: Why conceal it? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You don't seem to remember the farmers who were threatened with lawsuits over Monsanto gm seeds.

      Farmers that never used Mseeds themselves but blew over from neighbouring fields but didn't deter the big $$$ company from threatening legal action for using theirproduct unlicensed.

    29. Re:Why conceal it? by DNS-and-BIND · · Score: 1, Flamebait

      The American media is solidly left-wing and has been so since the days of Vietnam when they turned Peace With Honor in 1972 into the perception of a defeat in 1975. The crimes of socialism are responsible for the negative reputation of socialism. What did the North Vietnamese do in 1975 that could have tarnished the reputation? Oh, right, invading and conquering another country with tanks, and then murdering the right-wingers. Who has even heard of this history?

      --
      Shutting down free speech with violence isn't fighting fascism. It IS fascism!
    30. Re:Why conceal it? by slashping · · Score: 1

      This gives consumers the choice.

      I'm all for choice, but the problem is that 99% of consumers are lacking the knowledge to make an informed decision relating to GMO products. And if expert opinion is that GMO products are unsafe, why allow them at all ?

    31. Re:Why conceal it? by imidan · · Score: 1

      Yes, you're right, there isn't any GMO wheat on the market at the moment. But the point was, wheat is valued by measures such as protein content. When wheat grows very large very fast, it increases in bulk but not nutritional content, and it is valued less by weight than wheat with higher protein content.

      Anyway, I guess what I was trying to say was that even if there are GMOs involved, the point of the modification is usually not to increase water uptake to make bigger or heavier grains, because we do not value grains by those metrics. So that would be a waste of genetic engineering in those cases.

    32. Re:Why conceal it? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      A person can be smart, but people are dumb.

    33. Re:Why conceal it? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Still - it is their right to know what is in their food. There are also people that do not want (or are allergic to) some food additives, and want that labeled too. If the consumer wants to know, they should be given that information. If the food industry likes it or not..

    34. Re:Why conceal it? by execthis · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Your argument boils down to: People don't think/believe/do what you want, therefore they should be denied their right to know.

      I think it is you who is sick.

      Too bad you can't handle freedom.

    35. Re:Why conceal it? by imidan · · Score: 5, Informative

      We have monocultures without GMO.

      To which I explicitly stipulated in my comment. GMO property rights have demonstrably caused farmers problems. Those problems may have been brought on more by the farmers than the GMOs, but they have certainly occurred. In addition to those problems, I also anticipate problems in the future. As we cede power to massive agro/chemical corporations, they will inevitably take advantage. This is borne out by all of human history.

      Here is an example of an IP right causing a problem for farmers:
      http://www.monsanto.com/newsvi...

    36. Re:Why conceal it? by execthis · · Score: 1

      I cannot believe that you could actually make such an atrocious, sick argument. You are arguing that people should be denied the right to know if their food contains GMOs because they don't think/believe what you think they should think/believe.

      How appalling.

    37. Re:Why conceal it? by execthis · · Score: 1

      Actual translation is: People don't think/believe what the poster wants, therefore screw their rights. People only get rights when they think/believe what the poster thinks!

    38. Re:Why conceal it? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Or, just that you don't want to redesign your labels and leave other useful information off to make space for a 'contains GMO' label in exchange for the tiny market share VT holds.

      Next thing you know, some other small state with some nuts running it will decide that foods must be labeled if they contain DHMO.

      Then, another state will pass a law requiring that foods that contain any non-homeopathic ingredients be labeled as such.

      There is not one shred of scientific evidence that GMO foods are harmful to humans and there's no reason to label them. If producers want to cater to a cult, they can label their food as "contains no GMO ingredients". This will be much more helpful to those who seek out such foods as they can stop searching the label when they find the "no GMO" label (which, presumably, will be prominently displayed on the front as it's targeted at a group of suckers who will pay more for such a product).

      I assume that anyone that objects to GMO foods will also reject all modern corn since it was created by selective breeding in the past (today, we might use genetic engineering to accelerate the development process). DNA is DNA, it has no memory of how it was created -- through genetic engineering or through natural mutations which were then bred because humans or animals intentionally or inadvertently favored them in some way.

    39. Re:Why conceal it? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Why do shitty people think they should control what I eat? Just fucking tell me if it is organic, GMO, etc. and tell me what the heck the ingredients are. I'll make an informed choice that suits me. Maybe they think I am too stupid to even know what I want. Screw them!

    40. Re:Why conceal it? by slashping · · Score: 0

      You are arguing that people should be denied the right to know if their food contains GMOs

      I don't remember arguing that at all. I'm just saying that GMO labelling results in many people making uninformed choices. If you believe that GMO products are unsafe, why would you want to allow them to be sold at all ? That's atrocious and sick. And appalling.

    41. Re:Why conceal it? by Tyr07 · · Score: 1

      There are strains of fruits that have been GMO'd to "grow larger" by modifying the amount of water it naturally absorbs. So the flavor and nutrition gets diluted ( technically remains the same) but the product is larger and heavier as it stored more water, and you pay more as it's measure by weight.

    42. Re:Why conceal it? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      They can't conceal it. If they aren't using GMO, then they won't have to change their labeling, right? and If they are using GMO, they simply withdraw their products from the market....thus letting everyone in the other 49 states know that they use GMO...

      Sounds fool-proof to me, unless Monsanto has come up with a new method that doesn't use G or M or O...

    43. Re:Why conceal it? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      No memory? And how willing are you to bet the human race on that statement?

      Also, the difference between selective breeding and genetic engineering is slightly more complicated that you appear to understand.

    44. Re:Why conceal it? by slashping · · Score: 1

      Still - it is their right to know what is in their food.

      There's a difference between a right to know, and a requirement to label it on a package.

    45. Re:Why conceal it? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Whether or not it's GMO is completely immaterial to the product.

      There are, actually, some people out there that care about how their product was made because they may not support the practices that were used to make it... I believe that there are long term issues with the development/reliance on GMOs and I'd prefer not to put my $$$ towards them.

    46. Re:Why conceal it? by slashping · · Score: 1

      And then people find out it's not as tasty, and stop buying the product. It happened to Dutch grown tomatoes. They didn't use GMO, just regular cross breeding to make really big tomatoes, and then found out that German importers avoided them, calling them "water bombs". After that, there was a noticeable effort to go back to smaller and tastier varieties.

    47. Re:Why conceal it? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      This gives consumers the choice.

      I'm all for choice, but the problem is that 99% of consumers are lacking the knowledge to make an informed decision relating to GMO products. And if expert opinion is that GMO products are unsafe, why allow them at all ?

      That is the thing, Ignorance is curable, stupid is forever because stupidity is willful ignorance. You have to want to learn otherwise you won't.
      There is no consensus that GMO products are unsafe, and there has not been. IN general especially in biology, diet and nutrition the words "Bad" and "Good" kind of lead you astray. Example.. for a diabetic, sugar is not bad or good.. if your blood sugar is low you need to eat some or adjust to needing less (by consuming more fats in your diet.) But if your blood sugar is chronically high, you need to avoid sugars in general. Sugar is what it is, it is not bad or good. There are some nutrients like Trans-Fats, that should be not consumed at all if possible and the research is clear on it. Research has shown no measurable health effects thus far on GMO versus non-GMO products. Just so you are aware. What the consumer knows is on them, it is on them to educate themselves and it is the manufacturers responsibility to correctly label it's products in accordance with state and federal laws.

    48. Re:Why conceal it? by WaffleMonster · · Score: 1

      Actually: people are stupid and will make decisions based upon spurious information and superstition. People buying food still get to make their own decisions when there is GMO labeling. It's just more likely that they'll make decisions that aren't in their interests based upon their senseless bias against GMOs.

      Routinely find myself annoyed by "organic" labeled crap on the shelves. Some cheaper non-organic labeled options have all but disappeared entirely. As a result I get to pay more for what I strongly suspect is nothing more than a lame excuse to charge more.

      I sometimes find myself feeling sorry for health crazed fools I know who are into all manner of "natural" snake oils. Billions wasted on vitamin/supplement bullshit not proven to provide any tangible benefit. More importantly they won't shut up going on and on reciting marketing drivel they read on the Internet about their precious natural products.

      Still I don't give a shit how stupid and gullible people are. They deserve to be informed (even the annoying ones) and deserve to have the opportunity to make up their own minds even if it means they make the wrong choice.

      The concept some seem to be in favor of where information is withheld because they believe others are incapable of making informed decisions or otherwise fear a negative unjustified reaction strikes me as a particularly tyrannical and unsustainable position.

      If there is consensus x, y and z is fine and you don't agree with public perceptions to the contrary you have the option of working to win others to your position and build a consensus for it. Taking shortcut of forced ignorance because you think you know best and can't or don't feel like working to convince people directly is not a principal I support or agree with. Ends don't justify means.

    49. Re:Why conceal it? by WarJolt · · Score: 1

      Don't blame the mass media. President Hubert Hoover used the phrase rugged individualism often long before the 24 hour news cycle.

    50. Re:Why conceal it? by Maxo-Texas · · Score: 1

      It's no different than requiring if the product has gluten, or sugar, or etc.

      Labeling the product is the best way to end the stigma- because then they can charge a fair price and people will get used to it as a product.

      --
      She was like chocolate when she drank... semi-sweet at first and then increasingly bitter.
    51. Re:Why conceal it? by Luckyo · · Score: 2

      Indeed, just like German media has been left wing since days of world war two in 1945, which their media somehow sold as a perception of defeat.

    52. Re:Why conceal it? by cowdung · · Score: 4, Insightful

      I don't believe the dangers of GMOs are from a health standpoint.

      The main danger of GMOs is the social effect on small farmers being forced out of the business by companies like Monsanto. This is a real problem that affects farmers in many many countries where IP law is being used to bully the small guy into paying the big multi-national or go out of business.

      But again its not so much the technologies, but the legal framework around it that is causing this problem.

    53. Re:Why conceal it? by SvnLyrBrto · · Score: 4, Insightful

      I agree actually that the anti-GMO arguments are pretty stupid. But people have the right to eat what they want to eat, be it non-GMO, organic, fair trade, kosher, vegan, ovo/lacto vegetarian, gluten free, paleo, soylent, or whatever the next diet fad that comes down the pipeline will be. And it's a dick move to try to talk, trick, or coerce people into eating something they don't want to eat. Yeah, some of proselytism by people about their diets can be obnoxious. But that's no reason to withhold information about their food in order to trick them into breaking said diet. And if you think the GMO-free ones are the worst, I suspect you've not encountered many vegans or paleos.

      --
      Imagine all the people...
    54. Re: Why conceal it? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Informative

      They don't have that freedom because if they did they would say all their products cure cancer and give you a huge boner.

    55. Re:Why conceal it? by slashping · · Score: 3, Funny

      The concept some seem to be in favor of where information is withheld because they believe others are incapable of making informed decisions or otherwise fear a negative unjustified reaction strikes me as a particularly tyrannical and unsustainable position.

      I would like to know if any bees that were used to pollinate the crops in a product (including feed for animal products) were near cell phone towers during their pupal stage. Do you think we should require that on the label ? If not, your position is particularly tyrannical.

    56. Re:Why conceal it? by imidan · · Score: 1

      Still I don't give a shit how stupid and gullible people are. They deserve to be informed

      I agree with practically all of your post, but I choose this to respond to. It annoys me when my friend announces that she is now on a no-gluten diet even though she doesn't have celiac and is also incapable of explaining why she's excluded gluten from her diet except by vague handwaving about gluten being "bad". At the same time, I recognize that that's certainly her right, and I expend very little effort trying to argue with her about the effects of gluten. It's not my problem. I just wish that shit like this wasn't happening at a national level. I guess that's the price we pay for having a modern, world-wide telecommunications system with 24-hour TV and the Internet.

    57. Re:Why conceal it? by Aighearach · · Score: 1

      Why do you think it stigmatizes anything?

      A lot of people are against the labeling even though they understand there are real issues of choice, so they promote ignorance as a counter to the opinion that it is bad. To prevent you from choosing. It "stigmatizes" simply because some people don't want it; I guess the same is true of stigmata. ;)

    58. Re:Why conceal it? by Aighearach · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Where have you been for the past two decades? Have you really missed the controversy, fearmongering, lies, and generally unscientific bollocks that lead up to this?

      Except that intelligent people also accuse the food industry of these things.

      This push for labeling is not coming from plant & agricultural scientists, and for good reason.

      Yeah, the good reason is that scientists are not politicians or legislators. Lots of people who are scientists support food labeling, of whatever things people want to know about the product. Why do you just assert that scientists are anti-information, anti-choice? That is insane.

    59. Re:Why conceal it? by ChromeAeonium · · Score: 2

      I don't disagree; what I'm saying is that they have no right to legally mandate their personal dietary preferences. Notice how things like non-Kosher and Haram labels are not required by law. If, say, a Muslim demanded that non-Halal products had a Haram label on them because they were too lazy to learn about their own belief system, would you feel any sympathy for that person's 'right to know?' I certainty wouldn't knowingly do something like give such a person teriyaki chicken cooked with mirin and not tell them the food was cooked with alcohol, but still, they don't get to dictate regulations and mandate labels for something they could easily look up.

    60. Re: Why conceal it? by omfgnosis · · Score: 1

      Because I'm not a Puritan. People should be allowed to destroy or cultivate their own lives as they see fit. And they can't do that when the conditions they care about are hidden from them.

    61. Re:Why conceal it? by Aighearach · · Score: 1

      Horseshit. You don't think 99% of consumers can look at a product and decide if they want to consume it? You drove your talking points right off the cliff.

      It is really easy. Hand them the product. See if they put it in their mouth. If they do, then their knowledge informed them to eat it. If not, then it didn't. The vast majority off them will not read the label details, and yet they have all the knowledge that they need to either put it in their mouth, or not. And others read every word on the label, and then either put it in their mouth, or not.

    62. Re:Why conceal it? by SvnLyrBrto · · Score: 1

      What are the medical dangers from eating or not eating a kosher or halal diet? None. Yet we still have appropriate food labeling to allow people who wish to follow those diets to do so. And you can still get all of your nutrients either way. We also have all the labeling necessary for vegans (A diet which can easily cause health problems if you do it wrong.) to avoid all animal products as well.

      --
      Imagine all the people...
    63. Re:Why conceal it? by Aighearach · · Score: 2

      Regardless, if you'd rather pull the product than relabel it then you know in advance that your product can't survive with an accurate label.

      It certainly doesn't advertise confidence in the product safety when they make clear that they'd rather not even sell it than tell you what it is.

      People who read labels already know that there are a lot of products with strange ingredients.

    64. Re:Why conceal it? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Aahh a corporate slave. Nice, how about getting some treatment for your stockholm syndrom.

    65. Re:Why conceal it? by Aighearach · · Score: 1

      The label isn't less accurate if it's omitted.

      Perhaps not, but it is unquestionably less precise.

    66. Re:Why conceal it? by slashping · · Score: 1

      You don't think 99% of consumers can look at a product and decide if they want to consume it?

      Apparently you misunderstand the term "informed decision". Obviously anybody can make a decision based on what they read on the label, but in most cases, that decision won't be based on the latest scientific insights, but on crap they read from a random stranger on the internet.

    67. Re:Why conceal it? by omfgnosis · · Score: 1

      I doubt it would affect sales at all. Organic producers would explain reality to their customers, where gigantic food factory corporations apparently are incapable of discussing facts with their customers.

    68. Re:Why conceal it? by ChromeAeonium · · Score: 1

      therefore they should be denied their right to know.

      If I thought that, I wouldn't have explained exactly what was what right here. I'm not denying information; just the opposite, I want complete accurate information. Where these labels fail is on the complete part of that. A lie of omission is still a lie.

    69. Re:Why conceal it? by Aighearach · · Score: 3, Interesting

      If all products grown in light had to be labeled that they were grown in "radiation" then why would you even be talking about organics? That would still be a different part of the label.

      If there is demand for products grown only with light in the 400-500nm range, then it would make sense to add it to the standardized labels. Presumably nobody cares.

      Nobody is asking you or anybody to agree if you should care about that part of the label. The purpose is because people want the information, not because it is believed to be "different." In the same way that one brand might command a different price than another that you consider the same. Maybe one has a nicer logo. That is a difference in the product. Just like having the country of origin. Maybe you don't believe there is any difference in a product if it came from one side of a political line, or the other. But people want the information, so it is on the label.

      Saying we shouldn't be allowed to have the information because we might make illogical purchasing decisions is like trying to ban logos because people might irrationally prefer one logo to the other.

    70. Re: Why conceal it? by slashping · · Score: 3, Insightful

      And they can't do that when the conditions they care about are hidden from them

      Most of the conditions of the food is hidden from them. Why single out GMO as one of the required pieces of information ? Why not mandate accurate display of all pesticides and herbicides, or why not the additives that were added to the blend of rubber of the tires of the harvester ?

    71. Re:Why conceal it? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      All it takes is one fuck up and it can cause a lot of harm. Kind of like moving animals around. Do you think americans enjoy the tumbleweed and asian carp? Do you think Australians enjoy the rabbits, the cane toads, coyotes and other animals that were moved there?

      All you need with GMO is one fuck up from one of these irrisponsible corporations which have no oversight at all and are nothing but trigger happy fuck suing everyone for everything. I could be for GMO, if it was done by some responsible company with correct oversight, and unfortunately that rules out all american corporations. I have zero trust in them.

    72. Re:Why conceal it? by Aighearach · · Score: 1

      Or, just that you don't want to redesign your labels and leave other useful information off to make space for a 'contains GMO' label

      The only label in the whole store that has no room for extra words isn't even food, it is Dr. Bronners soap. And it probably already says non-GMO. ;)

      Have you ever actually shopped before? I mean, obviously you don't shop for groceries every year, but you've at least been in a store once or twice, maybe while on vacation without your mo^H^Hstaff there to wait on you? You do know that labels are not filled with information... right? Or do you just eat fast food every meal if nobody is there to cook for you?

    73. Re:Why conceal it? by chefren · · Score: 0

      Is this the model for Trump's upcoming wall on the mexican border?

    74. Re:Why conceal it? by DavidRawling · · Score: 1

      Then where, exactly, should the information be provided? Does each product need to come with a paper leaflet? Do you assume all consumers have ubiquitous Internet access such that they can hit the company website to see what's in a product? Or should they all register all product recipes with a central government agency? In my experience if a company isn't forced to toe the line like this, the ingredients will be listed on the back of a tomato sauce sachet in 1pt yellow on white type, which can be found "on display in the the cellar, in the bottom of a locked filing cabinet, stuck in a disused lavatory with a sign on the door saying ‘Beware of the Leopard." [Douglas Adams, paraphrased].

    75. Re:Why conceal it? by Aighearach · · Score: 1

      And then people find out it's not as tasty, and stop buying the product. It happened to Dutch grown tomatoes.

      LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOL

      OK. Go to a supermarket. Buy a nice looking tomato.

      Now, go to a farmers market. Buy a nice looking tomato.

      The one from the store is flavorless crap. Very few people stop buying it. Lots of produce has changed in this way. A lot of people buy organics because they are higher quality heirloom strains, not the watery flavorless crap from the monofarm. They simply taste better, not because they're "organic" but because they're a traditional variety grown in a traditional way.

    76. Re:Why conceal it? by Aereus · · Score: 0

      Because GMO is a largely meaningless buzzword. All foods we eat today have been "genetically modified" in some fashion. Ever seen what wild bananas or heirloom apples look like? We cross-bred until we got the desired traits aka genetics we wanted from them. The fearmongers want you to see GMO on a label and think it means they added some gene to make it glow in the dark or something, when in reality 99% of the time its something benign. Just a "GMO" label is meaningless—what that really should be is a note on exactly what foreign traits were transferred, if anything.

    77. Re:Why conceal it? by Ambassador+Kosh · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Do you want research and development to be done on seeds that have been engineered to get all or part of their nitrogen from the air? It is a major area of research to make nitrogen fixing plants and it would HEAVILY cut the usage of fertilizers and that would have a HUGE environmental benefit.

      If it takes decades to get it to work right and billions of dollars but you can't license the technology you realize we won't get that tech right?

      Would it be better for us as a species if the seed company was able to make and license those seeds and tell them at a price where the farmer pays more for the seed that a regular seed but less for fertilizer so in the end the farmer pays less than they do now? The environment is helped and the farmer is better off than before and the research gets done.

      There is lots of effort in trying to make the food healthier and better for the environment. All of that would go away if you can't own and license the seeds for at least a limited time. The problem is that this effort takes many billions of dollars and large teams of scientists to do the work. Government is not funding this research on anything other than a trivial scale. If you ever want to see this actually get used then allowing a corp to temporarily own their work and charge for it is the only way.

      Monocultures are a huge problem but they are not a GMO problem. Organic and GMO are both grown as monocultures.

      --
      Computer modeling for biotech drug manufacturing is HARD! :)
    78. Re:Why conceal it? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Manufacturers are already required to display all sorts of things they would rather not, including caloric content, nutritional value if any, and actual ingredients used to assemble the product, some of which may resemble food. This is a step in the right direction and manufacturers who don't want the public to know what they're consuming can stand next to tobacco manufacturers who didn't want the public to know that tobacco products were lethal and lied to the public when questioned. In fact, the food manufacturers can probably thank the tobacco industry for this label now.

      Captcha: Impostor. I'm not the real AC, I'm an impostor.

    79. Re:Why conceal it? by Opportunist · · Score: 1

      Counter question: Would you like to have to label your food to show it contains a "lactobacillus" if it does? Hell no, right? Bacillus, that's some pathogen! That makes people sick, of course that SHOULD be labeled, but who would WANT to, right?

      Well, pretty much anyone selling yogurt, bread, cheese, beer, wine and a few others would have to. Because they are affected by that kind of microorganism and if they weren't, they weren't what they are supposed to be. Because that stuff actually makes yogurt into yogurt.

      It just has a nasty ring. It doesn't sound "good". Not really like something you'd want to read on an ingredients label. The various E-numbers exist for a reason, because they sound a lot more family friendly than the nasty and sometimes outright intimidating chemical compound names that contain various -acids and even -cyanids. Yes, that nasty word that sounds like it's going to kill you (and outside of certain compounds it most likely would).

      It's less that they have something to actually hide. But the whole GMO discussion has been so insanely poisoned with misinformation (from BOTH sides, don't feel left out here Mosanto!) that there simply is no sensible way to put this back into proportion. At this point, GMO food could cure AIDS and it would still be treated like something the cat dragged in.

      --
      We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
    80. Re:Why conceal it? by slashping · · Score: 1

      If there is demand for products grown only with light in the 400-500nm range, then it would make sense to add it to the standardized labels. Presumably nobody cares.

      I bet if you put the warning on the label, people will start to care.

    81. Re: Why conceal it? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      There's generally some effort to exclude pesticides and herbicides from the final product. If the harvester's tire treads make it into the final food product in anything other than undetectable trace amounts, something somewhere has likely gone very wrong. On the other hand, GMO products sometimes have built-in pesticides that cannot be excluded in the usual way (by washing them) which are actually poisonous to consumers.

      Why use them? Because money.

    82. Re:Why conceal it? by Opportunist · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Nice illustration how word poisoning works. For you, "socialist" is a nasty word. For me, here in Europe, we have had a socialist party in our government for the better parts of the latter 20 century, and we have reached a prosperity level that most of the world, and I dare say including the US, envy us for. So someone calling himself "socialist" isn't that big a deal here.

      I needn't hit books to see that. I need to open my window.

      He would, by the way, be the absolute polar opposite of a "liberal" for the average European. Also due to our political history, where the liberals are usually found at the right edge of the political spectrum.

      A "conservative" here is more a centrist than a right wing nutjob. If you're looking for poisoned words in the political arena here, I guess you have to reach for "nationalist". That well has been utterly poisoned for good, I think. But I guess that's what starting the bloodiest war in the history of mankind would do.

      --
      We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
    83. Re:Why conceal it? by slashping · · Score: 1

      To provide complete information about a product and all its subproducts, would probably require a few hundred pages. I don't think a label of leaflet would suffice. The most logical way would be to put it on the producer's website, with subproduct links to different manufacturers, that you can access by scanning the UPC code. For people without internet access (far fetched, but okay), they could go to a public library, or even write a letter.

    84. Re:Why conceal it? by Tyr07 · · Score: 1

      Someone already responded but basically what he said. A lot of it has to do with that people aren't aware as to why it has been tasting different and aren't sure.

      If they saw it was GMO it would click and they would be 'Ahh..I see. Well, I don't like these' and then they might stop buying them. People aren't always sure that it isn't them that changed their opinon of a food, not the fact that the food itself has changed.

    85. Re:Why conceal it? by omfgnosis · · Score: 1

      Not in any meaningful way.

    86. Re:Why conceal it? by Opportunist · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Are you high?

      Do you REALLY need an explanation why it might not be in the consumer's interest, if not outright dangerous, if the manufacturer gets to state what he wants to say about the product and what he does not?

      If so, just think back a few years and what we learned since about cheap Chinese child toys.

      --
      We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
    87. Re:Why conceal it? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      DNA is DNA, it has no memory of how it was created -- through genetic engineering or through natural mutations which were then bred because humans or animals intentionally or inadvertently favored them in some way.

      What a wonderfully ignorant statement that captures the very essence of this argument. While DNA has no "memory" of how it was created, DNA is not the only concern with GMO foods. GMO foods are engineered to contain genes that express proteins that are advantageous to the recipient plant. Proteins, when expressed the wrong way can wreak havoc on the humans (or animals) that consume them. About the agent that causes CJD: It is difficult to kill, it does not appear to contain any genetic information in the form of nucleic acids (DNA or RNA), and it usually has a long incubation period before symptoms appear. In some cases, the incubation period may be as long as 50 years. See Prions. Prions cannot be destroyed through cooking, and therefore would be present in any product manufactured from the ingredient that contained them. Not to say that GMO products will contain Prions, but if a GMO protein contained in a foodstuff was harmful, it could take decades before it was discovered.

      Additionally, our understanding of how DNA works is laughably limited. While we know that DNA contains the instructions to produce a protein, the exact mechanisms that determine the expression of those genes are complicated and aren't always understood. Our understanding of how proteins work and how they interact with each other and RNA is even more limited, especially when you consider how many interactions that must be considered to determine if a GMO protein will be safe to consume.

      What hubris you, and everyone who claims that a few years of very limited research, is enough to prove that something this complicated is absolutely safe and warrants no caution by the consumer.

      As for myself:

      “I am sufficiently proud of my knowing something to be modest about my not knowing all.”

      Vladimir Nabokov, Lolita

    88. Re:Why conceal it? by slashping · · Score: 1

      A lot of people buy organics because they are higher quality heirloom strains, not the watery flavorless crap from the monofarm.

      Thank you for making my point.

    89. Re:Why conceal it? by Hognoxious · · Score: 1

      Ever seen what wild bananas or heirloom apples look like? We cross-bred until we got the desired traits aka genetics we wanted from them.

      Which of course is completely the same thing as putting genes from a glow-worm into a cat.

      --
      Confucius say, "Find worm in apple - bad. Find half a worm - worse."
    90. Re:Why conceal it? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      ... the same price they have been selling theirs at, and everyone will buy that instead.

      How dare product differentiation be used to benefit the consumers. This isn't what big-agricultural means by 'free market'.

    91. Re:Why conceal it? by slashping · · Score: 0

      My point was that "freedom" is never absolute. Obviously, there must be limits to the freedom of the manufacturer, based on recognized safety and health standards. It is equally reasonable to limit freedoms of consumers to optimize their actual health and safety. Crowding the label with irrelevant information could cause them to make choices that are actually bad for them.

    92. Re:Why conceal it? by slashping · · Score: 1

      Which of course is completely the same thing as putting genes from a glow-worm into a cat.

      Why not drop the useless hyperbole, and provide a sane argument instead ?

    93. Re:Why conceal it? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Oh, how interesting! People oppose GMO because of superstitious, bullshit reasons, but your reasons are rational.

      The fact is that you have Stockholm syndrome because "in the land of the free" you are not free to choose the food you eat, for whatever reason you consider suitable. You paint people that oppose GMO as stupid dumbheads but this is not reality.

      My father has both degrees in Chemistry and biology, working all his life around this field in Europe, his vision was GMO for things like making organic ink. He is scared about GMO because he knows the field. He had seen mutations and things going wrong and he is very rational.

      There are perfect reasons to oppose GMO for food in rational ways, the most important one is that we don't know shit. We can implant genes but we don't really understand them, and we also modify the genes in the process. In the future this will be less of an issue, but not understanding the consequences of what we do will hold.

      Let's not even talk about using GMO to flood plants with Round up pesticides that a GMO plant can stand but the people that eat that food does not.

      I believe in progress, if millions of Americans want to voluntarily offer themselves as guinea pigs for unintended consequences of experiments to enrich big multinationals all the better, thanks to that understanding of the problems will accelerate.

      But I don't want to risk my family on those experiments just to what my daughter have cancer when she is 25.

    94. Re:Why conceal it? by Smidge204 · · Score: 3, Insightful

      ...so it's okay if manufacturers lie just a little bit?

      I understand that you're taking this position from the perspective that GMOs are harmless. It's not like labeling foods that contain or may contain traces of peanuts, where a small population are demonstrably, deathly allergic to peanuts. Let me say that I agree that GMOs (at least so far) do not pose any health threats.

      However, there are reasons beyond health and safety that people might choose one product over another... even irrational reasons. For a "free market" to work, consumers need to be informed. Therefore manufacturers lying consumers *in any capacity* then that is, in my opinion, an injustice to the general population: how are the people who do not want GMOs in their foods supposed to have their voices heard in the "free market" if they can't tell what foods contain GMOs?

      Enough people care if their foods contain GMOs that they got laws passed to require labeling. In a properly democratic society, that means food should require labeling regardless of if it makes sense or not. And since there are no higher or existing laws that overrule or prevent this requirement, guess what? I think manufacturers should label their products.
      =Smidge=

    95. Re:Why conceal it? by jellomizer · · Score: 1

      Because Of generations of science fiction telling us that anything genetically modified is bad and prone to disaster.

      --
      If something is so important that you feel the need to post it on the internet... It probably isn't that important.
    96. Re:Why conceal it? by sonamchauhan · · Score: 4, Insightful

      No, we can't - its a balance. Giving consumers the ability to choose what they eat outweighs the 'freedom' the manufacturer has to display what they want.

    97. Re:Why conceal it? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      We don't have a problem with evil, radioactive giant super-bees that gained their mutant powers by being exposed to cell phone towers in their pupal stage. What real-world concerns would you have about that, which a consumer would benefit from being informed by?

    98. Re:Why conceal it? by thegarbz · · Score: 2

      Why would you try to conceal GMO products from the consumer? It's confirmation that the makers of GMO products have something to hide!

      I'll bite. Because consumers are in general stupid masses that instantly fear what they don't understand and then will research using some form of confirmation bias to suddenly stop buying a product because it contains something that regulatory bodies have classed as "safe".

      You need look no further than anti-vaxxers to see that writing complicated things on packaging does not help keep people "informed". Likewise I imagine that the sale of water will suddenly plummet if producers are forced to list every chemical in full on the label: "State law requires us to inform you that this product contains high levels of di-hydrogen monoxide."

      Oh my god that sounds scary. I better look that up: *Googles "facts about dihydrogen monoxide"* http://www.dhmo.org/facts.html Yep the FDA is corrupt for letting this product on the shelf and I'm never buying anything containing dihydrogen monoxide again! Open your eyes sheeple, we're being poisoned!

      And this is without even considering the fact that label laws are getting so ridiculous in some areas that there's barely any space left on the small bottle for a picture to guide me if I'm buying ketchup or habanero sauce, a mistake that you only make once.

    99. Re:Why conceal it? by cbraescu1 · · Score: 1, Insightful

      Your whole text reinforces the disdain of Central and Eastern Europeans against selfish Western Europeans.

      "For you, "socialist" is a nasty word. For me, here in Europe, we have had a socialist party in our government for the better parts of the latter 20 century, and we have reached a prosperity level that most of the world, and I dare say including the US, envy us for. So someone calling himself "socialist" isn't that big a deal here."

      In Central and Eastern European members of the EU the reality is that "Socialist" is being seen as a more tricky version of "Communist" (which in itself is seen as nothing different than "Nazi"). Yes, the Socialists themselves tend to believe being a Socialist is oh-so-different than being a Communist (with a minority being actually hardcore Communists who realize their only way to influence is by using the Socialist umbrella). But since most Socialist parties are in reality former Communist ones (you know, those who enslaved their own nations post WW2), their situation is very similar to those who are sorry for being caught, not sorry for doing something bad. For the majority of the population Socialism has negative connotations (for obvious reasons).

      "He would, by the way, be the absolute polar opposite of a "liberal" for the average European."

      True. A liberal in Europe still follows the classical liberalism stance of freedom.

      "Also due to our political history, where the liberals are usually found at the right edge of the political spectrum."

      Not true. And it shows that you're a socialist / social-democrat / leftist yourself (not that there were much remaining doubts by now). European liberals are on the CENTRE-RIGHT of the political spectrum. On the RIGHT-EDGE are, well, right-wing / nationalist / populist movements and parties. But as usual European leftists believe they are the center, so of course a liberal would be so far to the right...

      "A "conservative" here is more a centrist than a right wing nutjob."

      I fail to see where on this discussion (which is focusing exclusively on either USA or the European Union) conservatives are *EVER* believed to be "right wing nutjobs". The only place would be some Communist propaganda outlets... So now we know even better your position, comrade "Opportunist"!

      "If you're looking for poisoned words in the political arena here, I guess you have to reach for "nationalist". That well has been utterly poisoned for good, I think. But I guess that's what starting the bloodiest war in the history of mankind would do."

      Funny thing is that WW2 was started by National-SOCIALIST Germany and COMMUNIST Russia attacking and sharing Poland. So let's tone down the obvious lies that the bloodiest war in history was not the direct effect of left wing nutjobs bringing socialist / communist revolution to the unprepared world.

      --
      Catalin Braescu
      Ofaly.com
    100. Re:Why conceal it? by thegarbz · · Score: 1

      If everyone is using the same base GMO ingredients, then no one has anything to worry about and everyone will keep buying exactly what they are already buying

      That isn't even a remotely credible scenario. All that will happen is people will google with a healthy dose of confirmation bias "The dangers of GMO" and declare the FDA unfit to decide what is safe for them to put in their mouths and start huge campaigns.

      For a classic example of this in action look to the anti-vaxxers. Information is out there, consumers are given the choice, and they made the most illogical and irrational choice possible because they fundamentally don't understand the information presented.

    101. Re:Why conceal it? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2

      And that's what poor education brings you. If we were to be completely fair, the nationalists didn't start the bloodiest war in history, they merely continued it, and brought it to its peak.

      The guy who ultimately started it was Napoleon when he crushed the Holy Roman Empire, it was further fanned by Bismarck, who provoked the Franco-German war, Wilhelm I, who out of pure pettiness insisted on having Alsace and Lorraine annexed to the Reich -- all of which was a major contributor to the first world war, and ultimately led to the French-dictated revenge-peace which was probably the biggest mistake of them all. A bit more foresight there, and Hitler wouldn't have had a leg to stand on. As it were, it made a new war practically unavoidable.

      TL;DR Blaming nationalist for WWII is making things too simple, it was a result of greed, vanity, lust for revenge (on all sides!) and arrogance as much as nationalism.

    102. Re:Why conceal it? by skam240 · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Yeah, the left wing media did us all a massive disservice demonizing a war that amounted to sending non-voluntary soldiers to a war meant to suppress a government that our government knew would most definitely win a democratic election (the reason that both the French and then US wouldn't allow elections in the country). In fact, we have a good sized record of disrupting legitimately elected governments because they we inconvenient for us. "Socialist" governments are most definitely not the only form of governance that has served to oppress people.

      --
      I ignore Anonymous Coward posts. If you want to discuss something, that's awesome. Log in.
    103. Re:Why conceal it? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      There needs to be a label stating whether or not food contains chemicals. Chemicals are bad for you.

    104. Re:Why conceal it? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Liar. Cross-breeding is NOT the same thing as GMO.

      There is no way in hell any amount of cross-breeding a potato can make it pick up genes from a fucking fish to make it more cold-resistant.

      Your deliberate misuse of "cross-breeding" labels you as a fraudster, a liar, a shill and human vermin. FUCK OFF poo-eater!

    105. Re:Why conceal it? by surd1618 · · Score: 1

      For the same reason that people find it a bad idea to self-identify as "liberal" or "socialist". Reactionary types have poisoned the word in the popular vernacular.

      When I think of those terms, I tend to think of people who are willing to work with or be complicit with the current capitalist regime. To me, that is poisonous. They are both actually worse than 'pure' capitalism in the way that the proponents of 'progressive liberalism' or 'democratic socialism' both apologize for the current shit capitalists. I think that if 'democratic socialism' was the majority, then we would be in an even worse mire than we are now.

    106. Re:Why conceal it? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Many consumers want to know the political affiliation of the companies they buy from. Should they be required to post a list of their political donations on every package?

      After all, it's information that consumers care about. Why would you try to hide it?

    107. Re:Why conceal it? by InterGuru · · Score: 3, Insightful

      The lefi wing nutjobs are on campus, the right wing nutjobs are in Congress, governors chairs and state legislatures.

    108. Re:Why conceal it? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If so, just think back a few years and what we learned since about cheap Chinese child toys.

      Perhaps you can let us know which company(s) imported and sold those cheap chinese child toys? DId you buy them from a chinese company?
      That same company which moved manufacturing offshore to boost profits could/should have spent more time on QC. Apple makes all their products in china to but clearly have a decent QC policy.

      you never bought tainted toys from a chinese company... you bought them from an american company who probably could have made them in the US and sold for similar amounts, but it was far more profitable to move it offshore

    109. Re:Why conceal it? by Dog-Cow · · Score: 0

      Talking about the "free market" and about legislation at the same time is (oxy)moronic. If people care about GMO, they can petition companies to label their products, or they can stick to those who already label of their own volition.

      If there is ever a health risk associated with GMO, we can worry about labelling.

    110. Re: Why conceal it? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Another reason in lawsuits. Many times they can't guarantee supply chain. You label it GMO free and suddenly there are some. Plus with plants it's easy for GMOs to cross pollinate with decidedly non-GMO crops.

    111. Re:Why conceal it? by Dog-Cow · · Score: 1

      Intelligent people also believe the Universe was created around 6000 years ago.

    112. Re:Why conceal it? by Dog-Cow · · Score: 1

      If you care about GMO, you assume a product contains GMO unless it's labelled otherwise. This is how it's been since GMO became a thing. What is so fucking hard about this that the perpetually-paranoid assholes need to enact a law about this?

    113. Re:Why conceal it? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0, Insightful

      Talking about the "free market" and about legislation at the same time is (oxy)moronic. If people care about GMO, they can petition companies to label their products, or they can stick to those who already label of their own volition.

      If there is ever a health risk associated with GMO, we can worry about labelling.

      What good does petition do if no company labels its products ? None at all. It isn't like you can stop buying food eh ? So regulation is necessary.

    114. Re:Why conceal it? by Opportunist · · Score: 1, Troll

      Now that's cute. But you're not really trying to pretend that the Nazis were a left wing movement, do you? I mean ... even you can't have your view distorted that badly and know that little about history.

      --
      We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
    115. Re:Why conceal it? by Dog-Cow · · Score: 1

      So don't.

    116. Re:Why conceal it? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      From a food mfrs standpoint, the issue is far less about GMO labelling, and more about state specific compliance.

      If state x has different labelling requirements than state y, your packaging becomes very, very complex. When it's just one or two states that are 'uniquely different' it's manageable, but if multiple states have competing or conflicting requirements the expense to manage that, schedule that, and logistically ship to that will be very very very expensive to manage. Who's going to pay for that? You are, either in the form of higher product costs or in the form of fewer choices. I've already seen instances where companies are refusing to ship to california simply because the cost to manage to Ca specific requirements was deemed excessively high, and as such they simply exited that market.

      THIS is why the federal government (FDA) has established a singular umbrella requirement for labelling that is universal (well, in US anyway). To enable intra-state commerce effectively. Once states subsegment that in the name of 'consumer interest', it will always be the consumer who looses financially, or in terms of product availability. Always.

    117. Re:Why conceal it? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Too bad you can't handle freedom of manufacturers to choose what they want to display.

      They can choose what they want to display. They don't want to display foods with a certain label, they don't manufacture them.

    118. Re:Why conceal it? by StormReaver · · Score: 0, Troll

      Reactionary types have poisoned the word in the popular vernacular.

      I'm sure there was a similar discussion when people first started objecting to Uranium in drinking water, when Uranium was first discovered. It was hailed as having many health benefits by those selling it. Now it's considered assanine, as will eventually be the case with GMO.

    119. Re:Why conceal it? by Dog-Cow · · Score: 0

      You mean organic food growers (what food isn't organic?) will explain to their customers that their food is no more healthy, and possibly quite a bit less so, than the GMO competition?

      Oh right. You don't mean the reality we live in, you mean the "reality" invented by the paranoid-delusional.

    120. Re:Why conceal it? by Stephen+Chadfield · · Score: 1

      It is commonly referred to as "Darwin's Theory of Evolution". That is hardly hiding the fact that it is a scientific theory...

    121. Re:Why conceal it? by sumdumass · · Score: 2

      Nope. Trump's wall is supposed to be taller and taller depending on how much Mexican government officials past and present protest or ridicules it.

      You can likely look towards the great wall of China and the trump tower for insight.

    122. Re:Why conceal it? by Opportunist · · Score: 2

      Hmmmm... Napoleon was only the, some say inevitable, aftermath of the rein of terror after the French Revolution. Which was in turn the reaction to the unfettered absolutism. Which in turn was what Louis XIV installed after the Fronde to eliminate the threat of an aristocracy revolt. Which was ... you get the idea.

      There is rarely, if ever, a historic event that stands by itself, without influence or push from the past. True, nationalism was first "introduced" as a concept to the people during Napoleonic times when the various "nations" (very different context than what it is used for today and would today better be described as "peoples") got aware of their heritage and history. And yes, if Clemenceau didn't push for the humiliation and destruction of Germany after WW1, maybe WW2 would have looked differently, or maybe it would not have happened at all. Or at the very least not in this way. Would that have been better, though? Considering that many states in central Europe (Germany, Italy, Austria, Hungary) were turned into right wing dictatorships, it would be interesting what the 30s to 60s would have been like for Europe without a WW2.

      In the end, though, the topic was how words and terms are poisoned. And for this, realities matter less than sensitivities. Nationalism is what people connect with the atrocities of that time. Because that was the most tangible culprit. I don't want to say reason. But it sure felt that any country that took nationalism "too serious" got turned into an asshole state.

      --
      We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
    123. Re:Why conceal it? by Dog-Cow · · Score: 1

      We also don't have problems with GMO food, but that hasn't stopped the paranoid-delusional.

    124. Re: Why conceal it? by Dog-Cow · · Score: 1, Insightful

      That has never happened. The one case involved a farmer who went out of his way to gather the seeds from his neighbor's crops and use them in preference to other seeds. At no time has Monsanto gone after a farmer for accidental use of Monsanto seeds.

    125. Re:Why conceal it? by Dog-Cow · · Score: 1

      If someone causes a problem for themselves, you can't blame the object in dispute. That's just being a shithead.

    126. Re:Why conceal it? by Dog-Cow · · Score: 1

      You really think it's no different? You must be one of those paranoid-delusionals who haven't heard of celiac or diabetes.

    127. Re:Why conceal it? by Dog-Cow · · Score: 1

      There is not a single country in the world, not even Israel, which legislates labelling of Kosher food. Your comparison is completely ridiculous.

      (I don't know about Halal. Muslim countries have weird laws.)

    128. Re:Why conceal it? by slashping · · Score: 4, Informative

      They were nationalist, but with left wing social economic policies. That's pretty common among populist parties. A lot of people get confused because they're trying to map a complex set of opinions and policies onto a 1-dimensional left-right spectrum.

    129. Re: Why conceal it? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yeah, but in other departments, like say, abortion, Republicans are busy cooking up scares over fetal tissues (not to mention their various TRAP laws), or trying to shut down mention of any concerns about rising sea levels.

      Then again, the real issues might be tied to what caused the denial of leaded gasoline and smoking tobacco as health risks.

    130. Re:Why conceal it? by slashping · · Score: 4, Insightful

      ...so it's okay if manufacturers lie just a little bit?

      No.

      how are the people who do not want GMOs in their foods supposed to have their voices heard in the "free market" if they can't tell what foods contain GMOs?

      That's quite obvious. Any producer is free to include a label that says "GMO free", and sell his products for a premium.

    131. Re:Why conceal it? by Opportunist · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Quite the opposite.

      A free market according to its model requires one thing that does not exist in our reality: A consumer with total information available to him. And while this is impossible, we can still try our best to get to it as close as we possibly can. Because that's what the market model demands.

      Only an informed consumer who knows every aspect of the product could possibly choose the "best" product. Only then could he even come close to having the function that the free market requires from him: Determine the product that fits his needs best, choose this product, reward the producer making it and punishing those who fail to do so.

      This would be what a FREE MARKET requires and demands! Without this, there is no free market. Unfortunately, whenever someone start blaring "free market", the very last thing he has in mind is such a model market. What he has in mind is a dumb customer who will buy whatever shit you feed him. Either you then get to hear that a customer "could try to get that information on his own if he really wants to" or even the completely bogus shit that there is no need to inform that customer or that he has no right to any kind of information altogether.

      That is bullshit. Because then he CANNOT perform his function in the free market system. The consumer does not only have the right to be informed, he MUST be informed, whether he likes it or not, to perform his elementary function in the system! And that's independent of any health hazards or whatever else you could think of. The question the free market asks is not whether it is good for someone, the question is whether he wants it.

      So no, free market and labeling legislation are not contradicting. They're pretty much a requirement.

      --
      We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
    132. Re:Why conceal it? by Opportunist · · Score: 1

      Don't worry, you can make toys just as poisonous in the US, it's not like China has any advantage there yet.

      --
      We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
    133. Re:Why conceal it? by Teun · · Score: 1

      GMO food is a man-made deviation from natural food so there is a damn good reason to label it.
      Coming from an advanced farmer community I can see around me GMO has so far not proven to deliver significant savings in price or increases in production. the seeds and chemicals are expensive, the weeds get immune and you have to start again.
      The more and more obvious result of immunisation of weeds and unwanted cross pollination to other plants are just some good reasons to reconsider GMO.

      --
      "The likes of Facebook and WhatsApp are free to those whose privacy is of zero value."
    134. Re:Why conceal it? by slashping · · Score: 1

      Consumers already have the ability to choose. Manufacturers can label their products as "GMO free", if they want. You can assume that any product not labelled as such contains GMOs. This allows freedom to both.

    135. Re:Why conceal it? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Except for "new tech" like Twitter and Facebook. The world has changed, and large companies do have open, direct dialog with their customers.

    136. Re:Why conceal it? by Teun · · Score: 1, Insightful

      You're full of it, and in the pocket of Monsanto as well.
      Cross breeding is extending the natural process by the same natural means, GMO is laboratory chemistry typically to achieve what nature wouldn't allow.

      --
      "The likes of Facebook and WhatsApp are free to those whose privacy is of zero value."
    137. Re:Why conceal it? by PopeRatzo · · Score: 1

      Anyways, requiring a GMO label is intended for nothing else than to stigmatize.

      Food also has labeling for amounts of fiber. is that to stigmatize fiber?

      Don't be a dope. If GMO's have the benefits you say they do, then labeling will help sell them.

      --
      You are welcome on my lawn.
    138. Re:Why conceal it? by sumdumass · · Score: 1

      I don't see any problems with his claims. Hell, even in the US with the first red scare back in 1919 you couldn't really tell the difference between communism and socialism and most of the communist expelled from the US ended up being key players in Germany and Italy where we saw how they naturally progressed. Hitler reportedly said people do not understand the difference between principle and policy and that most people are pamphleteres not understanding that he was implementing the policy they were pushing with their pens.

      Now you may be thinking well we have this scale someone invented which defines it all differently so it is unpossible but history shows us different. Nazi Germany was a very progressive country.

      Now that doesn't mean all progressive or socialist policy will result in a new communistic or fascist state but it is not out of line if someone connects the dots.

    139. Re:Why conceal it? by PopeRatzo · · Score: 1

      Too bad you can't handle freedom of manufacturers to choose what they want to display.

      I'll bet that if you think about the sentence you wrote for a little while, you'll come to realize why it's the stupidest goddamn thing.

      Can you maybe think of a reason you wouldn't want manufacturers to have the ability to put whatever they damn well please on the label of their products?

      --
      You are welcome on my lawn.
    140. Re:Why conceal it? by Teun · · Score: 1

      This is how it's been in the US.
      There are many other developed nations that from the onset have ruled the other way by either requiring labelling or banning GMO outright.

      People here keep saying there is no proof GMO food is bad for your health but forget about the huge problems these products are causing for the farmers and eventually nature as a whole. Keyword: 'Cross pollination'

      --
      "The likes of Facebook and WhatsApp are free to those whose privacy is of zero value."
    141. Re:Why conceal it? by sumdumass · · Score: 1

      Shouldn't that be stockholders syndrome?

      I mean its just as silly as the rest of your comment.

    142. Re:Why conceal it? by slashping · · Score: 1

      Can you maybe think of a reason you wouldn't want manufacturers to have the ability to put whatever they damn well please on the label of their products?

      I didn't say that, and I don't think they should. But it's hypocritical to yell "you can't handle freedom", if your "freedom" means you want to force producers to put irrational warning labels on their products that will scare away consumers.

    143. Re:Why conceal it? by Dutch+Gun · · Score: 1

      And those labels are completely voluntary, driven by market forces, not by law.

      --
      Irony: Agile development has too much intertia to be abandoned now.
    144. Re:Why conceal it? by sumdumass · · Score: 2

      I think the problem here is that there is no credible scientific evidence showing gm foods are dangerous or different from organics or other foods. It is akin to forcing manufactures to put smiley or sad faces on the package if morons on the street think the people or animals making the food are happy or not.

    145. Re:Why conceal it? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I think it's more important than that. You're assuming the food quality is no different. Some may not be but tomatoes definitely are. They're heart sure, and vapid. I'm no luddite either. I just think that immediately qualifying new technology as obviously better is short sighted.

      As usual it's not really what you do as much as how you do it. And up until now the product quality has little bearing on how companies design their products across many categories. With food above all, quality should not take a back seat.

    146. Re:Why conceal it? by slashping · · Score: 1

      You find stupid claims on both sides of the spectrum. That's why we have organisations that perform scientific tests on food products.

    147. Re:Why conceal it? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I think you mean the regressive left has done a good job of poisoning the word in the popular vernacular. "Reactionary types" didn't even need to they didn't even need to try. The left has done it all on it's own by not controlling the batshit insane element in their midst and in many cases ignoring it or supporting it. The last 6 years have been a fine testament to that. Everything from whining about how "air conditioning is sexist" to whining that any form of disagreement/differing opinion is racist/sexist/homophobic. To making bullshit up to try and paint and tar xyz groups of people as xyz "all types of evil", and the media running with it because it generated views. Then when found out to be fake, ignoring it, or supporting fake hatecrime/assaults/rapes and then circling the wagons while saying "but it was just to start a conversation" as an excuse.

      That you actually BELIEVE in the truth of all of this hate and despite towards liberals/progressives/socialists/leftists may tell you something.

      Seriously, you can mouth all of this, but can you bring up the what those on the right have done? Even historically?

      But shoot, all you have to do is look at the investigations being made for the sales of fetal tissue that arose because of some fake videos.

      Nah, nah, that's too much to ask. Let's just go on demonizing the left. They deserve it.

    148. Re:Why conceal it? by sproketboy · · Score: 1

      Because how do you even define it? Many foods are modified, Bananas, Lemons, etc... etc... So much labelling for no reason.

    149. Re:Why conceal it? by Teun · · Score: 1

      Indeed, the problem with GMO isn't necessarily food safety when eating the hamburger but the way this stuff is marketed to farmers and the long term effects on an otherwise balanced nature.
      Monocultures are bad anywhere, look at Microsoft Windows, and with GMO (IP!) they are harder to avoid.

      --
      "The likes of Facebook and WhatsApp are free to those whose privacy is of zero value."
    150. Re:Why conceal it? by slashping · · Score: 1

      The consumer does not only have the right to be informed, he MUST be informed, whether he likes it or not, to perform his elementary function in the system!

      How does this work ? A consumer picks up a product, sees the GMO label, and puts it down. Then, from behind the produce section, an armed guard forces him to watch a 3 hour lecture on the science of genetic engineering until the consumer is satisfied that the GMO product is safe, and puts it back in the cart.

      Only an informed consumer who knows every aspect of the product could possibly choose the "best" product

      Every aspect ? So it's not sufficient to tell that the product contains GMOs. The consumer must be informed about the exact base pair sequence that has been altered.

    151. Re:Why conceal it? by PopeRatzo · · Score: 1

      I'm all for choice, but the problem is that 99% of consumers are lacking the knowledge to make an informed decision relating to GMO products.

      That sounds like a marketing opportunity for companies.

      If the manufacturers had taken the billions they've spent fighting labeling and used it to tell consumers about all the miraculous, world-saving properties of their GMO products, maybe we wouldn't be having this discussion.

      --
      You are welcome on my lawn.
    152. Re:Why conceal it? by Teun · · Score: 3, Informative

      Kosher and especially Halal diets make men grow beards and women cover their hair or even whole body.

      --
      "The likes of Facebook and WhatsApp are free to those whose privacy is of zero value."
    153. Re:Why conceal it? by St.Creed · · Score: 2, Insightful

      According to the NSDAP it was a bit before that: the "stab-in-the-back" legend is pretty infamous and basically claimed the same thing: the first world war was actually going pretty well for Germany, apart from minor setbacks, and if only the left hadn't risen up in revolt against the emperor and the papers hadn't claimed defeat, they still could have managed to salvage the whole thing.

      This legend works best on people who have no idea about the historical situation at the time.

      It's also quite funny how army leaderships always keep telling the rest of the world it wasn't their fault they lost the war. I'm pretty sure the Carthago Press Corps had the same problems in the Punic wars.

      --
      Therefore, by the (faulty) logic you're using, you're just a cow with a keyboard - osu-neko (2604)
    154. Re:Why conceal it? by slashping · · Score: 1

      If the manufacturers had taken the billions they've spent fighting labeling and used it to tell consumers about all the miraculous, world-saving properties of their GMO products, maybe we wouldn't be having this discussion

      "Manufacturers wouldn't spend billions on an information campaign if they didn't have something to hide"

    155. Re:Why conceal it? by PopeRatzo · · Score: 1

      Obviously anybody can make a decision based on what they read on the label, but in most cases, that decision won't be based on the latest scientific insights

      Where did you get the ridiculous notion that consumer decisions have to be based on the "latest scientific insights"? Do you believe someone who chooses a blue shirt over a red shirt must only do so if there is scientific evidence that supports blue being superior to red?

      --
      You are welcome on my lawn.
    156. Re:Why conceal it? by St.Creed · · Score: 3, Informative

      *some* left wing social economic policies. And true, they never would have gotten anywhere otherwise. However, after the Night of the Long Knives any lingering sympathies for left wing social economic policies was effectively purged from the party in a long and bloody night of murder.

      The fact they used the name "socialist" because of the positive connotations at the time, is hardly unsurprising. What surprises me every time is that so many people who should have read Null-A, fail to appreciate the difference between the map and the territory, or the word and the thing itself, or the flag and the reality. Not aiming at GP btw, it's just a general observation that as soon as someone applies a label, everyone applies a world of meaning to it. But labels like "centrum", "democrat", "nationalist", "socialist" and "communist" have all been used by political parties that in reality implemented none of the policies associated with the label.

      --
      Therefore, by the (faulty) logic you're using, you're just a cow with a keyboard - osu-neko (2604)
    157. Re:Why conceal it? by EzInKy · · Score: 1

      Personally I would love to support GMO foods by only buying foods that I am certain have been enhanced by science. I am a nerd, after all. Unfortunately manufacturers stubbornly refuse to proudly proclaim the technological advantages of their products on their labels. I really think their fear of a Luddite backlash is depriving them opportunities to draw us forward thinking types to their foodstuffs. Shame really.

      --
      Time is what keeps everything from happening all at once.
    158. Re:Why conceal it? by slashping · · Score: 1

      Food also has labeling for amounts of fiber. is that to stigmatize fiber?

      Fiber content has been scientifically proven to affect health.

      Don't be a dope. If GMO's have the benefits you say they do, then labeling will help sell them.

      Vaccines have huge benefits, and despite giving people much more information, fewer people want them.

    159. Re:Why conceal it? by slashping · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Manufacturers are already required to display all sorts of things they would rather not, including caloric content, nutritional value if any, and actual ingredients used to assemble the product

      And as soon as you can show that GMO food affects consumer health, like the caloric content does, then we should have a warning for GMO as well.

    160. Re: Why conceal it? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Uh, socialists started WWII. NSDAP, look up the meaning of the word. And then prepare to use the No True Scotsman fallacy, because that's what you do every time.

    161. Re:Why conceal it? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qKAOfhyRMoA

      Gmo is not good

    162. Re:Why conceal it? by drinkypoo · · Score: 1

      I agree actually that the anti-GMO arguments are pretty stupid.

      Even if you think that GMO is the greatest thing since sliced bread, you pretty much have to accept the argument that most GMO is Monsanto-related, and that Monsanto is literally evil. If you don't, you're ignoring history, and we all know what happens to people who ignore the lessons of history; the rest of us have to sit around and watch you fuck everything up so that we can't have nice things.

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
    163. Re:Why conceal it? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Seed patents date back to the 1930s. Biological patents (yeast was the first) date back to the nineteenth century. Agricultural "intellectual property" has nothing at all to do with genetic engineering, a technology that wasn't commercialized until the 1980s.

    164. Re:Why conceal it? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qKAOfhyRMoA

      you must see this

    165. Re:Why conceal it? by turbidostato · · Score: 1

      "Too bad you can't handle freedom of manufacturers to choose what they want to display."

      When thinking about a "free market" basically the first thing that comes to mind is "informed decision". As long as a side of the equation (the prospective customer) feels that knowing if a food is GMO or not is part of their informed decision process, is the duty of government (one of the only ones even for die hard liberals) to make sure producers comply.

    166. Re:Why conceal it? by drinkypoo · · Score: 2

      The label isn't less accurate if it's omitted. Whether or not it's GMO is completely immaterial to the product.

      Wrong. There are at minimum economic ramifications to purchasing GMOs that I would like to avoid. In addition, I note that none of the chucklefucks claiming that breeding and GMO are the same thing actually have any credentials in this area. They're all armchair dickheads. GMO lets us achieve goals we can't achieve with selective breeding, and therefore it is substantively different. Claiming that it's the same as selective breeding is at best a lie, or potentially just being a colossal idiot.

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
    167. Re:Why conceal it? by drinkypoo · · Score: 1

      The people who want the label to be there want it because it's scary sounding and they hope it will dissuade people from buying food that contains GMOs.

      You're an asshole, and fuck you. I want the label for my own benefit, and the benefit of the planet; GMOs are used primarily so that we can shit on it harder, growing crops in soils that should be laid fallow or amended rather than being pushed more towards desert via depletion, or so that we can use additional pesticides which have been shown to persist not only in the soil, but also in the human body. And I am not sanguine about the prospects of consuming foods containing DNA that nature could never have put there on its own, because we don't know how that will turn out. The chances of that being problematic are much higher than a random mutation, especially since ma nature never mutates an entire population at once and then protects it. Mutations usually fail.

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
    168. Re:Why conceal it? by slashping · · Score: 1

      Where did you get the ridiculous notion that consumer decisions have to be based on the "latest scientific insights"? Do you believe someone who chooses a blue shirt over a red shirt must only do so if there is scientific evidence that supports blue being superior to red?

      You're very confused. Obviously, red/blue is just a personal preference, whereas GMO/non-GMO is based on health-related fears. If you want to argue that GMO is purely a personal choice, without any relationship to health or safety, then voluntary labels work just fine.

    169. Re:Why conceal it? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Conventional strains can be patented and owned by big corporations. Agricultural products developed via genetic engineering can be free and open source. The two issues have nothing to do with each other at all. Seed patents date back to the 1930s. Genetic engineering wasn't commercialized until the 1980s.

    170. Re:Why conceal it? by drinkypoo · · Score: 1

      Well, pretty much anyone selling yogurt, bread, cheese, beer, wine and a few others would have to. Because they are affected by that kind of microorganism and if they weren't, they weren't what they are supposed to be. Because that stuff actually makes yogurt into yogurt.

      And guess what? When yogurt has not been pasteurized and contains active cultures, it says so on the container.

      It is a travesty that ingredients for alcohol are not required to be listed on the bottle.

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
    171. Re:Why conceal it? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Hubert Hoover??? WTF???

    172. Re: Why conceal it? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      National socialists are not the same as."socialists"...

    173. Re:Why conceal it? by unrtst · · Score: 1

      IMO, your "anti-vaxxers" example is a great example of the situation, but with entirely different impact on the user and others.

      Where it fails is that if one were anti-GMO, they can easily eat a healthy diet still, and their decision to do so does not affect anyone else. However, those choosing to live anti-vax are arguably putting others in society at risk, as well as their own well being.

      Where it is similar is that the result is a relatively tiny portion of people are hardcore anti-vax (or anti-GMO), but why not allow them to make that decision? What harm does that do to you or others? I suspect that in most cases where people may consider the GMO label in a purchase decision, it'll be when they have two very similar products to choose from, similar to most whole foods customers and the choice between "certified organic" and their other produce.

    174. Re:Why conceal it? by roman_mir · · Score: 0, Offtopic

      Liberal used to mean free from government oppression while socialist always meant authoritarian collectivist. The so called 'democratic socialism' of Sanders is government oppression of some based on the voting of the majority to steal and redistribute, basically collectivist or mob oppression of minorities. In the USA, liberal today in the basically socialist.

      To me all forms of collectivism, socialism, fascism, religious, nationalist is no different from authoritarian and oppressive, anti individual freedom, anti humanist. Collectivism brings us the evil of the gulags, government taxation of income and wealth with the intent of equalization and so called 'solidarity', which is a misnomer for theft and oppression. I have never and will not ever feel and have any solidarity with anybody based on oppression, coercion and violence and all that government is - it is oppression, coercion and violence.

    175. Re:Why conceal it? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      That analogy doesn't really hold. Germany wasn't winning pretty much every battle by any objective military measure in the months leading up to surrender.

    176. Re:Why conceal it? by bondsbw · · Score: 1

      Most importantly, they had genocidal foreign policy. Not left-wing or right-wing, but wrong-wing.

      --
      All my liberal friends think I'm a conservative, all my conservative friends think I'm a liberal.
    177. Re:Why conceal it? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The sad thing is, you probably believe that the Russians were acting like Socialists when it came to Eastern Europe.

      Sorry, but they were militarist authoritarians with a dose of imperialism at the time.

      Most of the actual reforms were in the 1920s, but even they were soon forgotten.

      Claiming to be socialist made for a good cover, just like the Kings of Old claimed to be blessed by the Gods.

    178. Re:Why conceal it? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Sure, or you source some of your ingredients in such a way that you can't really be sure, and the cost of tracking it down will increase the cost of your product to the point that you're losing money, and you might not be able to just raise the price to cover - do you really think Vermonters won't just go buy the unlabeled versions in Massachusetts if the price differential is too high?

    179. Re:Why conceal it? by shawn2772 · · Score: 1

      If they're happy with it, if it has advantages they can sell the consumers, then they should sell it to consumers on its advantages.

      Why would you try to conceal GMO products from the consumer? It's confirmation that the makers of GMO products have something to hide!

      I have no problem with labeling, as long as we make sure we label all the GMO products, not just the ones that resulted from gene splicing. We also need to label all of the products that resulted from mutation breeding, using radiation, transposons or mutagentic chemicals to cause large numbers of random mutations. Obviously, those products are much more dangerous than the ones created by carefully altering one tiny section of the organism's DNA.

      Unfortunately, there's a problem: labeling the results of mutation breeding would require labeling virtually everything in the grocery store. Mutation breeding has been widely used for a century now, and most of the strains we currently eat were produced that way. So if we labeled accurately, the labels would be uninformative.

      And this is why I actually oppose labeling. If accurate labels are uninformative, then inaccurate labels can have no value whatsoever.

      If you want to add a label that says something useful related to the riskiness of eating an organism, perhaps the best thing to do is to identify the age of the strain. Something we've been eating for a thousand years is likely safe (not that there's anything that old in the grocery store). Something we've been eating for 50 years is less safe, but probably safer than something that just came into existence last year, in the sense that there's a better chance we've observed the negative effects.

      So, if you want to label, I'd say label by the age of the strain, whether it was created by gene splicing, mutation breeding or "natural" selective breeding (which is only different from mutation breeding in that it relies on cosmic rays and other "natural" mutagens to provide the mutations for selection). What would really be ideal is to label with an estimate of the number of people who've eaten that strain without apparent harm, perhaps weighted by how long ago they ate it, in order to increase the odds that problems would have been observed.

      That would be scientifically-accurate and useful information that you could put on a label.

    180. Re:Why conceal it? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      GMO foods can be dangerous to people with allergies. A genetically engineered variety of plant X may contain proteins that normally only occur in plant Y. Surely in that case, at least, it would make sense to distinguish in food labels between "X" and "genetically engineered X also featuring genes from Y, Z, W,..."?

    181. Re:Why conceal it? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Think on it this way: your friend is subsidizing the diets of genuine celiac sufferers by helping to enlarge the market for gluten-free foods, allowing economies of scale and competition to make more products available and drive the prices down.

    182. Re:Why conceal it? by shawn2772 · · Score: 1

      Regardless, if you'd rather pull the product than relabel it then you know in advance that your product can't survive with an accurate label. People are stupid, but tough - that's just the way the market is.

      There's an assumption in this statement: That the label is accurate, in the sense that it usefully distinguishes the labeled product from all of the unlabeled products. Given that the discussion is about labeling only GMOs produced by gene splicing and not all of the other GMOs produced by mutation breeding, which is the process of showering organisms with radiation and/or mutagenic chemicals in order to induce large numbers of random mutations, from which those that appear safe and useful can be selected, that assumption of accuracy is false.

      If we're going to label GMOs, we should label all GMOs, not just the ones created by the safest and most controlled method.

    183. Re:Why conceal it? by Giant+Electronic+Bra · · Score: 2

      Yup, and as a long-time Vermonter I can say that Vermont is not generally a place that is run with idiocy and hype. Its a place where money has little part in politics and people get what they want. Like one of the most livable places on Earth, and one that is leading the way into the future environmentally, socially, etc. It has a fair number of issues too, but here we have a very classic example of how government FOR THE PEOPLE works, vs how government FOR THE BANKS works. Well, heck, even the US Senate isn't totally corrupt yet, heh.

      --
      "Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem." -- Jefferson
    184. Re:Why conceal it? by CanadianMacFan · · Score: 1

      Yes because in thousands of years of farming we've managed to to take genes from one species and put it into another. Or from an animal and put it into a plant.

      Of course we have haven't. Genetic engineering is NOT the same as creating hybrids in the manner we have been doing since we've started farming. If we were to use the technology to speed up the process to move genes within the same species I wouldn't have a problem with it. I'd love to see a new term for it. Something like Genetically Modified, Same Organism (GMSO).

      My problem with using genes from different organisms isn't that food won't be safe to eat. It's that we don't know enough about the interactions of genes. Humanity isn't as smart as we like to believe we are and we have a terrible track record when it comes with the consequences of our decisions.

    185. Re:Why conceal it? by Barsteward · · Score: 1

      99% of consumers are also lacking the knowledge to make an informed decision relating to voting.

      --
      "The hands that help are better far than lips that pray." - Robert Ingersoll (1833-1899)
    186. Re:Why conceal it? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I do not understand why fighting GMO food is dumb and counterproductive?

      I live in a region that has been working the fields for about 9,000 years. Thousands of years of evolution in agriculture have turned this region in the most fertile lands and where the cause of many scientific revolutions. It was thanks our farming that the population grew exponentially in the middle ages. The population became so big that there were more people living in the North West then around the traditional dense populated Middle East. This was the cause why Europe became so successful and ready to dominate the world.

      The key for success was working with water, choosing what crops to produce at what moment, rotating the fields. Thousands of years of study of the seeds have mastered they way to work the fields all year round without making the soil infertile. The techniques that were developed even enriched the soils.

      Now all of the sudden GMO comes into the picture and thousands of years of tradition is destroyed by introducing enormous large fields of mono culture. In only one decade one third of the soil has flooded away. Because in order to let GMO food be more profitable than traditional food, all hedges and water works had to be remove and leveled. This was to counter the overproduction caused by the mono culture. Overproduction and contracts that forced farmers to keep on producing the same crops lowered the prices under the cost price for the farmers. Year after year, villages are being run over by mud streams which then end up in the sewer system and flow into the canals and rivers to the sea. The fertile layer that took thousands of years to prepare is only 1 to 3 meters thick. It's not much and it has to be protected. But regional conditions is not what scientists in some remote lab take into consideration.

      These scientists in some remote laboratory probably think they are doing "the right thing", they are just working for the profits of big companies who only think about maximizing profits. What do they care about some local conditions? Rain forests? Just burn them down and plant our seeds. Soil no longer contains nutrition for our seeds? Just burn more rain forest. Old techniques of smaller fields not profitable with our GMO? Just create very large fields. Soil eroding away? There is still plenty left for at least another 20 years.

      My opinion is that most farming cultures know very well how to work their local fields. GMO is okay when used to help farmers instead of using the slower method of cross-pollination. It is not good when used to destroy thousand of years of tradition and the work of hundreds of generations of farmers by introducing IP on forms of life and killer contracts of which even a medieval feudal lord would say "How evil".

    187. Re:Why conceal it? by PopeRatzo · · Score: 1

      You're very confused. Obviously, red/blue is just a personal preference, whereas GMO/non-GMO is based on health-related fears.

      I think you might be confused. There are reasons to oppose GMO foods that have nothing to do with health related fears. You might oppose the patenting of organisms, or the threat GMOs pose to biodiversity, or simply the companies that are involved.

      --
      You are welcome on my lawn.
    188. Re:Why conceal it? by PopeRatzo · · Score: 1

      "Manufacturers wouldn't spend billions on an information campaign if they didn't have something to hide"

      Dummy, manufacturers already spend untold billions promoting their products. Why is it just in the area of GMOs that companies aren't expected to, you know, actually do a little marketing?

      --
      You are welcome on my lawn.
    189. Re:Why conceal it? by PopeRatzo · · Score: 1

      Fiber content has been scientifically proven to affect health.

      So, you're saying that there are no benefits to GMO foods? Nothing good Monsanto can say about them that might people want to buy and consume them? Good to know,

      --
      You are welcome on my lawn.
    190. Re:Why conceal it? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The main advantages are on production side, less pest problems larger harvests that sort of thing. Problem is that your average consumer is an ignoramus and three letter abbreviations of any sort are scary. The solution would be to lobby a legislation that classifies selective breeding as genetic modification too, then only wild berries and such can get away without the gmo label.

    191. Re:Why conceal it? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      ... freedom of manufacturers to choose what they want to display.

      Like the amount and source of cellulose in grated Parmesan cheese "product"?
      Like the amount of melamine in milk?
      Like the amount of antifreeze in wine?

      Clearly, you fail to grasp a critical aspect of Capitalism. In order for Capitalism to work, consumers must be informed, otherwise there is no "free hand of the market".

      You are either a shill, or an idiot, or both.

    192. Re:Why conceal it? by penguinoid · · Score: 5, Funny

      I vote that any foods that are radioactive, even if just a little bit, be required to be labeled as radioactive and have a measure of how much radioactivity per serving. This seems to me more important than labeling GMO foods, but then maybe you don't mind eating radioactive food.

      --
      Don't waste your vote! Vote for whoever you want, unless you live in a swing state it won't matter anyways
    193. Re:Why conceal it? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You're the one trying to use the deceptive language in downplaying the differences.

      Which is just as bad as hyperbole, from a different direction.

      But it was Jellyfish, not Glow-worms.

    194. Re:Why conceal it? by PopeRatzo · · Score: 1

      Vaccines have huge benefits, and despite giving people much more information, fewer people want them.

      Would you support the vaccination of people without their knowledge or consent?

      --
      You are welcome on my lawn.
    195. Re: Why conceal it? by JoeRobe · · Score: 1

      FWIW, the Vermont law specifically defines GMO as modified using modern molecular techniques, not hybridization:

      ""Genetically engineered (GE) seed" means seed produced using a variety of methods, as identified by the National Organic Program of the U.S. Department of Agriculture, used to modify genetically organisms or influence their growth and development by means that are not possible under natural conditions or processes. Such methods include cell fusion, microencapsulation and macroencapsulation, and recombinant DNA technology (including gene deletion, gene doubling, introducing a foreign gene, and changing the positions of genes when achieved by recombinant DNA technology). Such methods do not include the use of traditional breeding, conjugation, fermentation, hybridization, in vitro fertilization, or tissue culture. (6 V.S.A. Â 641)."

      ""Genetically modified organism" (GMO), as defined by Vermont statute, means any organism altered or produced through genetic modification from a donor, vector, recipient organism, or by other means using modern molecular techniques (6 VSA Â 1030)."

      --
      The best way to predict the future is to invent it.
    196. Re:Why conceal it? by tomhath · · Score: 1

      where IP law is being used to bully the small guy into paying the big multi-national or go out of business

      The problem is political corruption, but not IP law.

      If you really want to help farmers in Third World countries you would help them break the monopolies that the commodity buyers have in their markets, where a farmer must sell at a price set buy the buyer who has the political connections. That is what drives farmers to suicide.

    197. Re:Why conceal it? by aliquis · · Score: 1

      Here in Sweden all sorts of people likely want to call themselves liberals because it sounds good and carries no stigma and the left calls anyone opposing immigration for fascist even though the socialist by definition is fascists for all I care, they may be open for immigration rather than not but they are still for a large authoritarian state (or global communism as if that was any better or changed shit.)

      But if one were to be more honest about them they should and would be split into social-liberals and neo-liberals (classical liberals.)

      As for the parties I guess they are:
      (Not in the parliament) Feministiskt initativ - Created by party leader of VÃnsterpartiet (former communist party) below, feminist and pro-immigration party of the same. They are all pretty similar, say they are all socialist parties but one which focuses on feminism brand, one on communism, welfare, unions and anti-capitalism and one on environment and mass-immigration.
      VÃnsterpartiet - Former communist party, social-democratic anti-capitalists pro-government for immigration and human "rights" and welfare for everyone and against borders with revolutionary voters and an over-representation by immigrants.
      MiljÃpartiet - Former environmental party, used to be pretty liberal but is social-democratic with tolerance of market / free-choice for services and such when they think that may benefit the person. Very "humanist" so to say, want free immigration and open borders.

      Socialdemokraterna - Social-democrats. Social-liberals with a realistic view on immigration and capitalism vs socialism, for unions and with a very left/communist/pro-immigration/communist/revolutionary young voting group. Allied with Islamists. Mostly united with the two above because they can't rule otherwise.

      Liberalerna, former Folkpartiet - (Social-)liberals.Very consistent.
      Centerpartiet - Liberals and rural areas/farmers party, try to sell themselves in as that alliance environment party.

      Moderaterna - Supposed to be liberal-conservative. But to get more voters they have approached the politics of the Socialdemokraterna. They pushed through the current migration politics with the environmentalist party and the following two parties above and one below but claim to be against it now when they are in opposition. For freedom of choice and capitalism and liberalism and open borders and trade but realistic when it comes to voter support so not necessarily for lower wages, destruction of the welfare, tolerant of immigrants and so on. Ass-kissing liberals so to say.

      Kristdemokraterna - Christian/religious/family/humanist value social-conservative economically liberal party. I guess it's what I perceive as the most sane of the bunch now. Sweden is so agnostic and progressive that they aren't actively against abortion or homosexuals and so on AFAIK. Guess this would be the most American party of our parties? But with more support for families (but including liberal solutions, such as parents taking their "newborn children period" in whatever way they want or be free to have one parent at home and so on.

      Sverigedemokraterna - Social-conservative nationalist liberal-for-Swedes anti-immigrants and pro assimilation party. The supposedly "Nazis" and fascists and brown ones and dangerous and anti-humans and ..

      There's a huge lack of neo-liberals in the Swedish parliament. The center and christian and possibly moderate party could had been such but due to their alliances and real-politics they can't really act like that and have to find a mixture which work and grant them voters.

    198. Re:Why conceal it? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The reactionary types are going to flock toward whatever they perceive to be the exact opposite of whatever they think has that label. For non-GMO folks, that'll be "organic" and for non-socialist types that'd be outright stupidity, err, "conservative" policies. It won't have to be labelled as such for them to do this. But this won't matter to most everyone else who just need their food to be less expensive. While "organic" is popular, the stuff not labelled organic still flies off the shelves.

    199. Re:Why conceal it? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      It doesn't necessarily have to be a health affecting issue for them to be required to label it. One of the conditions of TPP (and might be part of NAFTA as well) is that you won't be allowed to label what country the food comes from. Personally, I like to buy food that comes from my country. Call me "nationalist", but I see value in keeping my dollars local. It's not a health issue in that case (although it can be for other clauses of TPP-enforced labelling), but an economic and ideological one. Why shouldn't people get to make the same choice when it comes to GMO?

      Efforts to prevent disclosure of facts only serve corporate interests and no-one else's.

    200. Re:Why conceal it? by wvmarle · · Score: 2

      What is worse is that farmers can be sued for producing their own seeds, from non-GMO crops, but they get contaminated due to bees bringing in pollen from nearby fields with GMO crops. As a result the patented genes end up as contamination in what should have been non-GMO crops, and in the end everything under the sun is owned by Monsanto et.al. It goes further than Monsanto customers trying to save seeds to grow next season. The saddest part here is that Monsanto has sued, and won judgements against, those farmers that are trying to stay away from GMO but can't due to this cross-contamination.

    201. Re:Why conceal it? by Kohath · · Score: 1

      Yeah, why have ingredients on food at all?

      It's not worth threatening or bullying people over. Food at restaurants doesn't have an ingredient list and life goes on.

      Why give a ticket for speeding on an empty road?

      Yes. Why? It hurts someone. It helps no one. You'd have to be kind of a punitive, arrogant asshole to think its a good idea to be pointlessly nasty to someone driving on an empty road.

      That's just the current state of society. That's why.

      Punitive, arrogant assholes who are routinely, thoughtlessly nasty to their neighbors for no benefit to anyone. That is the current state of society.

      Let's be better than that.

    202. Re:Why conceal it? by ChromeAeonium · · Score: 4, Interesting

      Lots of people who are scientists support food labeling, of whatever things people want to know about the product.

      I happen to be one of the scientists you are referring to. I work in plant science, where my opinion on this is not uncommon. I'm not against information, far from it, I want more people to know about what it is we really do in my field. What I am against is selective reporting of information, leaving out critical details, to make a falsehood appear true. There is a big difference between that and actual education. Why do you accuse me of being anti-information and anti-choice for demanding labeled be complete, honest, and accurate information while saying exactly what a GMO is?

    203. Re:Why conceal it? by slashping · · Score: 1

      Would you support the vaccination of people without their knowledge or consent?

      That's not the point. I'm just using the example to show people are easily misguided even if plenty of good information is available to them. The idea that extra information about GMO would lead to more people making rational choices is most likely wrong. More publicity could easily have the opposite effect.

    204. Re:Why conceal it? by slashping · · Score: 1

      So, you're saying that there are no benefits to GMO foods? Nothing good Monsanto can say about them that might people want to buy and consume them? Good to know,

      These are two different things. Even if there are benefits, then providing additional information can make people scared. Imagine if your local supermarket puts big blue stickers on their chicken products saying that "THESE CHICKENS HAVE BEEN FED DIHYDROGENMONOXIDE". Do you imagine that sales could drop, even though this information is correct and harmless ?

    205. Re:Why conceal it? by ChromeAeonium · · Score: 1

      how are the people who do not want GMOs in their foods supposed to have their voices heard in the "free market" if they can't tell what foods contain GMOs?

      Same way millions of Jews, Muslims, Hindus, vegans, and others with personal dietary restrictions get by: knowing their own beleif system. If for example a Muslim picks up a steak that does not explicitly say 'Halal' in a non-Muslim majority country, than they can reasonably assume that it is not Halal. Likewise, if you pick up a product containing corn, soy, cottonseed, canola, sugar not specified as cane sugar (that is, from a sugar beet), or summer squash or a Hawaiian papaya, you can reasonably assume it is genetically engineered. I don't think it is too much to ask that those who do not wish to consume GE crops take responsibility for their own belief system like everyone else.

    206. Re:Why conceal it? by matbury · · Score: 0

      Everything from whining about how "air conditioning is sexist" to whining that any form of disagreement/differing opinion is racist/sexist/homophobic... ...or supporting fake hatecrime/assaults/rapes...

      My guess is that you don't have many female friends, you know, those batshit crazy feminists shivering over on the other side of the office who dare not speak up because of... well, you know... YOU.

    207. Re:Why conceal it? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Indeed. The point however from my perspective is that if we allow our self to forget what really makes history pan out the way it does, we increase the risk of it repeating itself. And if we all blame "nationalism" for WW2, and forget what roles players like the warmongering imperialist Churchill, Clemenceau, Wilhelm I, Bismarck and Hitler really played, we're making a huge mistake.

      Being vaccinated against nationalism doesn't make you immune to corrupted, war-loving drunks who attempt to manipulate our understanding of things in order to further their own agenda.

    208. Re:Why conceal it? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Your welcome. America helps pay for all your welfare programs so they stay afloat. When the day comes when America can no longer hand out money Europe will go down with America.

      Go look at what happened in Greece, that is where you are heading if you are a socialist country, only a matter of time.

    209. Re:Why conceal it? by BitZtream · · Score: 1

      Or perhaps people that identify themselves as 'liberal' or 'socialist' have poisoned the word?

      Its funny how its always the other side's viewpoint that is the one thats fucked up, isn't it?

      You ever wonder why you're the only guy who 'gets it'?

      --
      Persistent Volume manager for Kubernetes - https://github.com/dwimsey/openshift-pvmanager
    210. Re:Why conceal it? by slashping · · Score: 1

      You might oppose the patenting of organisms, or the threat GMOs pose to biodiversity, or simply the companies that are involved.

      I also might oppose a thousand other things that are not on the label. Also, non-GM organisms could be patented too, or threaten biodiversity, and the companies that you don't like may also produce non-GM crops that you'd want to avoid. This isn't something that the law needs to get involved with. If there's a sufficient demand for non-GMO products, or products that are ecologically sound, manufacturers can put their own label on the product. Some of these already exist. You can buy only foods from certain brand you trust and like, or buy in an organic store.

    211. Re:Why conceal it? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      So belief in "Superstition" is a constitutional right if worship but isn't important if the subject is GMO foods. Food producers have the right to peddle whatever crap they want , I have the right to refuse to buy it or eat it for whatever reason I chose superstition or not. if that costs me more that is my choice. Their right to sell doesn't outweigh my right to make an informed choice.

    212. Re:Why conceal it? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Are you daft? He can't do what he wants, and you suggest, because accurate labeling of GMO products is not required. Which is what this whole article is about/

    213. Re:Why conceal it? by currently_awake · · Score: 1

      You could pay for the wall with adverts for American products and jobs, available once the Mexicans bribe the "Honest" American guards to let them through (just like how the Mongols bypassed the great wall of China).

    214. Re:Why conceal it? by blogagog · · Score: 1, Interesting

      Socialism is only a dirty word in places that have experienced it.

    215. Re:Why conceal it? by AthanasiusKircher · · Score: 3, Insightful

      I don't disagree; what I'm saying is that they have no right to legally mandate their personal dietary preferences.

      If you were talking about an individual, sure I agree. But luckily we live in something still resembling a representative democracy, where individuals get to make all those arguments to their representatives, and those representatives get to vote on such things.

      I don't see how asking a company to provide some information about ingredients is some sort of violation of any "fundamental right."

      Notice how things like non-Kosher and Haram labels are not required by law. If, say, a Muslim demanded that non-Halal products had a Haram label on them because they were too lazy to learn about their own belief system, would you feel any sympathy for that person's 'right to know?'

      If a single Muslim demanded that our food labeling system be changed, I probably wouldn't pay much attention. If a significant segment of the population cared and convinced a state legislature that such labeling would be helpful to many people, though, I wouldn't have a problem with such labeling on consumer goods.

      This isn't about a "right to know." It's a question about whether states have ability to pass minor regulatory laws. They pass them all them, requiring all sorts of random crap. Yes, some of those regulations are probably unnecessary or even an abuse of power. I sincerely doubt that GMO labeling laws would come close to even the top 1000 of most egregious acts that state governments have mandated through regulation in the past year.

      Yet for some reason this particular one causes everyone to get up in arms.

      I certainty wouldn't knowingly do something like give such a person teriyaki chicken cooked with mirin and not tell them the food was cooked with alcohol, but still, they don't get to dictate regulations and mandate labels for something they could easily look up.

      Again, you're talking about individuals. TFA is talking about the actions and decisions of a representative governmental body. Last time I checked, local and state governments can pass pretty much whatever laws they want to regulating whatever, as long as they don't violate any fundamental rights and aren't fundamentally abusive, arbitrary, or discriminatory. If you don't like such policies, lobby your representative or move to another state.

    216. Re:Why conceal it? by ChromeAeonium · · Score: 2

      You do realize that Monsanto is not a farming company, yes? They're an ag supply company. They want small farmers to go out of business the same way restaurant supply companies want restaurants to go out of business. What gain would Monsanto have from having less customers?

    217. Re:Why conceal it? by currently_awake · · Score: 1

      Very little research has been done on GMO foods, and most of it was done by the companies selling it.

    218. Re:Why conceal it? by ChromeAeonium · · Score: 1, Insightful

      That's a pretty poor case you're making. If someone is knowingly, intentionally, violating patent law or breaking a contract they signed, that's their fault. I suppose you could complain about the very concept of plant patents if you care to explain how crop breeders getting paid a fair price for their work, selling something that no one is forced to buy or use but is still desirable enough to command a premium seed price, is somehow wrong.

    219. Re:Why conceal it? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The Nazis were far more fascist than socialist. Their party stemmed directly from disaffected former military organizations. Hitler's actual economic policies were fascist/totalitarian.

      Honestly, I don't know how you would say otherwise, unless you really had no idea what you were talking about. Maybe crack a book or two. Keegan's Second World War gives a pretty thorough overview of Hitler's rise to power and subsequent economic policies, not because he has any political story to tell, but because he's a military historian and such things had a rather large impact on the war. If you don't like that one, you can find others. There will be none which suggest that either aggressor was at war to bring socialism/communism to Europe.

    220. Re: Why conceal it? by AthanasiusKircher · · Score: 1

      Most of the conditions of the food is hidden from them. Why single out GMO as one of the required pieces of information ?

      Because people want to know, and they have asked their state legislators to require this. Since we live in a representative democracy (and the regulations do not violate any fundamental rights, aren't blatantly discriminatory or arbitrary, etc.), they can do this.

      (I may think most of the people who want to know have irrational reasons for wanting to know, but that's irrelevant. Lots of legislation and government policy is irrational.)

      Why not mandate accurate display of all pesticides and herbicides

      I'm sure some people would like this too. And if they convince a state legislature to require it, I personally wouldn't have a problem with it.

      That's sort of how democracy works. If the business doesn't like it, they can hawk their goods somewhere else.

      New York City, for example, has mandated all sorts of wacky food laws in the past decade. If people or businesses don't like them, they can lobby their representatives to try and change them, or else move somewhere else.

    221. Re:Why conceal it? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Point to where we can easily look up GMO/NON GMO status for all items at the grocery.

    222. Re:Why conceal it? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      This gets a five? Swearing, insulting, using ignorant and abusive language? At least it shows the temperament and intellect of those who DO support GMO crops. Thanks goodness none of you Slashdot posters actually gets to determine policy. You are the masters of you with your all knowing comments. This place makes YouTube look intelligent.

    223. Re:Why conceal it? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      maybe you don't mind eating radioactive food

      Don't mind? I love eating bananas!

      That said, sure, why not? I don't see why that would be a bad thing.

    224. Re: Why conceal it? by Type44Q · · Score: 1

      Why would you try to conceal GMO products from the consumer?

      Because, contrary to popular belief, GMO's are actually being pushed by sinister elements of the Military Industrial Complex such as Monsanto but rather a secret organization of enlightened scientists who've realized that the average westerner is eating more and more mineral-and-nutrient-depleting (i.e. toxic) fruits and vegetables and their intake of true superfoods (such as wheat, corn and soy) is on the decline. Really, they're trying to save us from ourselves... and pay no mind to all these "shills" (i.e. a distasteful slur for all the unfamiliar Slashdot users paid to come out of the woodwork to chime in on this debate like a pile-up); it's an extremely unfair term for those who're struggling on behalf of Big Ag and Big Pharma... sorry, I mean on behalf of the world's population...

    225. Re:Why conceal it? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      And how exactly am I supposed to do that w/o a label which says "this is GMO"?

    226. Re:Why conceal it? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Just skimming and noticed "tar xyz groups" ... took a second trying to recognize whether that was a valid tar command.

    227. Re:Why conceal it? by currently_awake · · Score: 1

      Bananas are radioactive. This isn't Chernobyl fallout though, it's from the potassium naturally containing a radioactive isotope. You might want to set limits on this, however, for produce from Japan.

    228. Re:Why conceal it? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I vote that any foods that are radioactive, even if just a little bit, be required to be labeled as radioactive and have a measure of how much radioactivity per serving. This seems to me more important than labeling GMO foods, but then maybe you don't mind eating radioactive food.

      I would love to see this. For my curiosity and for the scare it would cause when bananas carried warning labels saying that they were radioactive.

    229. Re:Why conceal it? by Marful · · Score: 1

      Because the issue is more complex than you realize.

      Lets imagine that there are two farmers next to each other both growing wheat. Farmer A is "organic" certified and doesn't use GMO modified wheat. Farmer B does use GMO to maximize yield and thus profits. Both Farmers sell their wheat to two different food processing companies, who then process the wheat and sell it to a different food distribution companies, who then sells the processed wheat to end consumers.

      One such consumer is a small independently owned bakery in Vermont who sells packaged bread to other local vendors. This bakery decides to sell only healthy organic, non GMO foods and purchases their food ingredients to conform to this.


      Now here is the "crunch" question.

      Farmer A finds out that his crop of wheat were cross pollinated from Farmer B's fields when Monsanto comes by, tests their wheat, and claims a patent violation by using unlicensed GMO wheat strains.

      The Food Processing company that Farmer A sold his, what he believed was non-GMO "organic", wheat to has all of their food products now cross-contaminated with GMO food products.

      The Food Distribution company that Farmer A's wheat is sold to is now selling food that "may" contain GMO without proper labeling.

      The small Independently Owned Bakery that bought Farmer A's wheat is now selling baked goods that were supposed to be "organic" but now "may" contain GMO food products.

      Who is legally culpable for violating the law? Who is legally responsible for any damages (re: lawsuit)?

      Bonus question: What if one of the suppliers in the product distribution chain knowingly omitted labeling foods as containing GMO's to attempt to cash in on the "organic food craze" and make a quick buck by defrauding consumers. Are their consumers now legally culpable and responsible?

    230. Re: Why conceal it? by Type44Q · · Score: 1

      GMO's are actually being pushed

      Typo; that should've read "GMO's aren't actually being pushed..."

    231. Re:Why conceal it? by Marful · · Score: 1

      Whoosh!

    232. Re: Why conceal it? by currently_awake · · Score: 1

      Mandatory labeling of what was fed to an animal before it hits the grocery shelf would be nice. You can tell free range eggs from regular ones by colour and taste, so clearly there are differences.

    233. Re: Why conceal it? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I have bleeding holes in my hands and feet, you insensitive clod!

    234. Re:Why conceal it? by CrashNBrn · · Score: 1

      It's General Mills. Not counting their 'crappy bag of oats' - they don't make "food", they make 50% sugar-injected powdered shit.

      See Coaches Oats, for something that might be worth actually eating.

    235. Re:Why conceal it? by AthanasiusKircher · · Score: 1

      The label isn't less accurate if it's omitted. Whether or not it's GMO is completely immaterial to the product.

      Not if you care about that fact. I may think most of the anti-GMO arguments are nonsense, but other people care about these things.

      Some food producers, for example, would argue that "humane treatment" of animals is "completely immaterial to the product." They might even produce scientific studies that say the nutritional content of the resulting food is the same.

      But some consumers might care about ethical treatment of animals. If a state wanted to require labels that stated the average density of animals in their living space to give consumers an idea of whether they are crammed together or allowed "free range," it might satisfy those people. You may say it's irrelevant to the product, but other people might not.

      Another analogy is requiring mention of whether or not somebody died in a house prior to you selling it. Mentioning that fact will probably reduce its value, however if they never find out then there's no harm at all, and even if they do, there's still no harm, other than maybe it bothers the buyer's religious view, but nonetheless all 50 states in the US have laws preventing civil suits against people who don't mention this (or other immaterial facts, like whether a previous resident had AIDS.)

      Notice that you say there are LAWS which prevent such suits. You've just lost your point right there, because that implicitly acknowledges that the DEFAULT position is that people might care about this and if there weren't such laws, they might be successful in a lawsuit.

      (Oh, and by the way, you're wrong. There are NOT such laws in all states. Some states, like California, Alaska, and South Dakota explicitly REQUIRE sellers to disclose if a recent death has occurred in a house. Other states have laws like you mention, explicitly NOT requiring disclosure. And in most states, the buyer could still sue if you could prove that a lack of disclosure caused an incorrect valuation. For example, if a house is well-known in an area as being "haunted" or whatever (particularly if it has been claimed to be so in print, etc.), that could make it difficult for a buyer to sell later, regardless of how ridiculous the claims are. In that case, a buyer could be successful -- see, for example, the so-called Ghostbusters ruling if you don't believe me.)

      States get to determine their own laws, voted on by representatives of constituents. If those constituents overwhelmingly demanded the right to sue people over not disclosing the fact that someone died in a house, the state legislature has the right to overturn such laws.

      And if the people of a state convince their legislature that certain products need to be labeled in a certain way or disclose certain elements, as long as such labeling is not a violation of anyone's fundamental "rights," etc., they can do so.

    236. Re: Why conceal it? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Actually Democrats are the worst offenders in this department:

      http://www.politico.com/magazi...

      Leave it to a Republican ass clown like you to point that out. FUck off ok? GO to hell, back to your corporate masters and let them know you failed!
      Dick!

    237. Re:Why conceal it? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Maybe GMO product producers aren't hiding it. Maybe they just don't want to go to the expense of changing their label, or printing two sets of labels depending where the produce is going to market. Maybe they don't want to obscure their brand by adding something irrelevant to their packaging, making their product less visually appealing to the typical consumer. Maybe they don't want to lose market share among the people who don't want to pay for organic produce but hear all the scaremongering and wonder if it might be wiser to just not take the chance.
      So no, they don't necessarily have something to hide. They have something to lose.

    238. Re:Why conceal it? by ArmoredDragon · · Score: 2

      Even if you think that GMO is the greatest thing since sliced bread, you pretty much have to accept the argument that most GMO is Monsanto-related, and that Monsanto is literally evil.

      In the future we might call this argument "the strawman that broke the back of the green revolution". Since I live in a first world country, I don't have to worry about starving any time soon though.

    239. Re:Why conceal it? by j-turkey · · Score: 1

      Why do you think it stigmatizes anything?

      Because all labeling does is slap a label onto a product that says "GMO". It says nothing about the genes modified (for example, whether if a plant is Roundup Ready or vitamin A enriched). It does not educate consumers, as just being GE does not tell the whole story. GMO labeling for the claimed purpose of informing consumers is as disingenuous as requiring voter ID in order to stop non-existent voter fraud. I feel that it is being used as a tool for several other purposes, including furthering fears generated by junk science (that has been outright fraudulent, in some cases). This is not to say that I don't have problems with the business practices of a certain seed company, but I don't believe that generic GMO labeling laws are an appropriate way to handle what I believe are patent abuses.

      Besides, there are already federal rules for organic food labeling, and this already means no GMO ingredients.

      --

      -Turkey

    240. Re:Why conceal it? by ArmoredDragon · · Score: 1

      I'm in favor of GMO technology and didn't know a lot of this stuff. Well said.

    241. Re:Why conceal it? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Informative

      Yeah, the left wing media did us all a massive disservice demonizing a war that amounted to sending non-voluntary soldiers to a war meant to suppress a government that our government knew would most definitely win a democratic election (the reason that both the French and then US wouldn't allow elections in the country). In fact, we have a good sized record of disrupting legitimately elected governments because they we inconvenient for us. "Socialist" governments are most definitely not the only form of governance that has served to oppress people.

      Yeah, better to allow Communism to take over/survive like it did in North Korea. You may want to read the "Long Telegram" and the reasons for containment:

      * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/X_Article#The_Long_Telegram
      * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_F._Kennan

      The Paris Peace Accords allowed for the existence for a North and South Vietnam, but the North were planning to invade. Nixon (a general bastard, but not in all maters--he did create the EPA after all), said the US would defend its ally, but a Democratic-controlled Congress (though with good amount Republican support) passed a law forbidding helping the South, and so when the Accord was broken and Saigon fell, the US couldn't help:

      * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Case–Church_Amendment

      It should be noted that while messy, the US military did not lose a signal major engagement during its involvement in Vietnam. They did lose the propaganda war though.

      I'm no fan of propping up dictators, but as someone whose family came from Poland, I'm no fan of Communism either.

    242. Re:Why conceal it? by AthanasiusKircher · · Score: 1

      Because facts without context are deceptive. Evolution is 'just' a theory, agree with me? So why not label that on textbooks? Hey, it's a fact, you don't want to hide facts do you? The thing is, your average person has no idea what genetic engineering really is or what it means. Giving people one small detail, without telling the complete story, without explaining the details, knowing full well that years of misinformation are going to result in them thinking something that is not so, is not informative.

      I absolutely agree with all of this. But this is not a problem unique to this case -- it's a common trait among our politicians and our political discourse, where people win debates by taking facts out of context. It's encoded in the underlying policies of Wikipedia, which emphasize "verifiability" of atomic facts (which might be distortions, even if true), rather than requiring appropriate context, expert review, etc.

      It is a lie of omission, plain and simple. These laws are forcing lies because no one stopped to ask people who actually know the science behind the crops what they thing.

      This is where my agreement stops. To my knowledge, no one is preventing a company from putting a long explanation on its food box about why GMO foods are good and why they are necessary. No one is preventing a company from creating advertisements or press releases arguing for the validity of their products and how GMO information can be misinterpreted.

      So how is anyone "forced" to present a "lie of omission" here? Companies which produce GMO food are welcome to provide all the context they want.

      Are egg producers forced to present "lies of omission" because they list the amounts of cholesterol in their products on labels, even though recent studies increasingly show that dietary cholesterol and egg consumption in particular is unlikely to be a cause of elevated blood cholesterol numbers? No -- because egg producers have been running ad campaigns for decades to provide context and information about their products.

      I think most of the anti-GMO rhetoric is stupid and ignorant too. But no one is being forced to present information without context here. If they are, I would agree that that would be deplorable.

      Regardless, people are demanding this information, and they've convinced a state legislature to vote for it. The regulation does not violate any fundamental rights. If a company doesn't like it, they can hawk their goods in another state. Elements of this controversy may be stupid, but that's how democracy works.

    243. Re: Why conceal it? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Do you work for monsanto? Either that or you're the most naive fool around.

    244. Re:Why conceal it? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Your first mistake is not realizing that the American mainstream media is literally controlled by six multi-billion dollar corporations, all of which are interconnected. Everything that makes it onto the big networks comes from the same place, and it carefully crafted. That's why everybody tends to report on things with a pretty much identical message.

      Your second mistake is buying into the false, contrived left/right paradigm. A more realistic paradigm is rich (really, truly rich) / poor (the rest of us). The people who actually run this world don't give a fuck about political ideologies beyond making sure we're all under their collective boots. They also don't care what color our or their skin us, or about the borders of nation states.

    245. Re:Why conceal it? by TechyImmigrant · · Score: 1

      Why do you think it stigmatizes anything?

      I can't imagine why. Where have you been for the past two decades? Have you really missed the controversy, fearmongering, lies, and generally unscientific bollocks that lead up to this? This push for labeling is not coming from plant & agricultural scientists, and for good reason. It is coming from people who already stigmatize GE crops and wish to do so further.

      The science pro GMers like to reference shows that GM food is safe to eat. That is moot. It's what GM seeds do to farming that rational people dislike and GMO labelling is a scheme to apply back pressure at the other end of the chain.

      --
      I should use this sig to advertise my book ISBN-13 : 978-1501515132.
    246. Re:Why conceal it? by TechyImmigrant · · Score: 1

      The safety of GMO food isn't in question. It the effect on farming practices that we hate.

      With GMO labelling, Roundup Ready = sell your grain for less.

      --
      I should use this sig to advertise my book ISBN-13 : 978-1501515132.
    247. Re:Why conceal it? by TechyImmigrant · · Score: 1

      I think the problem here is that there is no credible scientific evidence showing gm foods are dangerous or different from organics or other foods.

      FFS do keep up. Over the past 20 have you not noticed that the safety isn'i the issue? That's a strawman. The problems are with GMO farming practices which people hate.

      --
      I should use this sig to advertise my book ISBN-13 : 978-1501515132.
    248. Re:Why conceal it? by TechyImmigrant · · Score: 1

      Not if being intelligent includes being right about stuff.

      --
      I should use this sig to advertise my book ISBN-13 : 978-1501515132.
    249. Re:Why conceal it? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Dickhead! This is what you put in your body FFS. I see it far more crucial to know what is going in my body over which schmuck voted for which schmuck.

      You're conditioned, you need help. It's not your fault. But the first step is waking the fuck up. The second stage is "getting over" the depression / the fact you woke the fuck up and realized just how much damage you've done to not only your own body but also what you've done to your kids by shoveling them with shitloads of carcinogens and sugars from that weekend trip to McDonalds. And you know its not like they dont act like raving crack addicts over the stuff if you tell them "no we're not going this weekend".

      Really when you research food you begin to learn just how much stuff isn't what should be even classified as food. From there you can experiment with cleaner fresher food. Once you've tasted a _proper_ tomato or a _proper_ seeded melon when it is 3x more juicer and cruncher than any of that pesticide filled shit you buy at the shops. And then how much better your body reacts too it you begin to not only re-evaluate how horrid GMO alone truly is.

      The stigma is justified. Deceiving people for marketing / political purposes... Yeah get fucked!

    250. Re:Why conceal it? by TechyImmigrant · · Score: 1

      Ever seen what wild bananas or heirloom apples look like? We cross-bred until we got the desired traits aka genetics we wanted from them.

      Which of course is completely the same thing as putting genes from a glow-worm into a cat.

      Well I'll be sure to avoid glowing cat meat as I go around the supermarket. I'll know they are GM even though it isn't labelled.

      --
      I should use this sig to advertise my book ISBN-13 : 978-1501515132.
    251. Re:Why conceal it? by ArmoredDragon · · Score: 1

      I think it's more important than that. You're assuming the food quality is no different. Some may not be but tomatoes definitely are.

      You're right! And in the few cases where the quality is different, it's actually better. See this white paper for example:

      http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pu...

      That still doesn't help your argument though.

    252. Re:Why conceal it? by slashping · · Score: 1

      In that case, you should lobby for a 'farmed using a practice I hate' label, and not a GMO label, as those are two different things.

    253. Re:Why conceal it? by ArmoredDragon · · Score: 1

      In addition, I note that none of the chucklefucks claiming that breeding and GMO are the same thing

      It occurs to me that I haven't ever seen anybody claim this. What has been mentioned however is that the argument against GMO often amounts to "we don't know, therefore bad" while completely disregarding the fact that natural reproduction produces a LOT more unknowns, and in addition to that, also disregarding the fact that GMO changes are precisely known.

    254. Re:Why conceal it? by slashping · · Score: 1

      So because one company is evil, we should punish all of them ?

    255. Re:Why conceal it? by ArmoredDragon · · Score: 1

      Not if you care about that fact. I may think most of the anti-GMO arguments are nonsense, but other people care about these things.

      And we already have not one, but two labels that tell you if something doesn't have GMO food: GMO-free and Organic. The later even has a USDA definition.

    256. Re:Why conceal it? by Maxo-Texas · · Score: 1

      You think people with food allergies don't need to know what foreign genes are in the tomatoes?

      GMO needs to be labeled- not just as GMO but with what is in the mix. If you put wheat genes in the tomatoes to make them resistant to crops, people with celiac disease would like to know about it.

      With diabetes, at least you can test and determine which foods are screwing up your blood sugar.

      I think in your haste, you took my point backwards.

      --
      She was like chocolate when she drank... semi-sweet at first and then increasingly bitter.
    257. Re: Why conceal it? by Type44Q · · Score: 1

      They also don't care what color our or their skin us, or about the borders of nation states.

      No, they certainly don't but convincing us otherwise is obviously incredibly useful...

    258. Re: Why conceal it? by Type44Q · · Score: 1

      Anyways, requiring a GMO label is intended for nothing else than to stigmatize. It is every bit as asinine as the California proposal...

      Fortunately, merely saying these things makes them true, otherwise you'd have quite the uphill battle on your hands trying to be convincing...

    259. Re:Why conceal it? by CanadianMacFan · · Score: 1

      Or you can achieve that with the proper crop rotation. Plant clover when you also plant grass to make silage as it fixes nitrogen. Beans and similar plants also fix nitrogen. Just don't pull up the roots when you harvest. You don't need to add the nitrogen fixing gene(s) to everything.

      As a bonus, when you do proper crop rotation you get a reduction in pests (bacterial, fungal, viral, and animal) because they have a harder time gaining a foothold in a field. If you always plant potatoes in a field then there will always be food for the pests that attack potatoes. However a proper rotation will only have potatoes in that field approximately every seven years so there will probably be nothing for the pests to eat in six of the seven years and they will die (or at the very least have a lot harder time surviving).

    260. Re:Why conceal it? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      My guess is you don't enjoy much female company in general.

    261. Re: Why conceal it? by ArmoredDragon · · Score: 1

      I'm not a Republican, I'm just showing asshats like you that voting for the corrupted party that you enamor has its obvious downsides.

    262. Re: Why conceal it? by careysub · · Score: 1

      Uh, socialists started WWII. NSDAP, look up the meaning of the word. And then prepare to use the No True Scotsman fallacy, because that's what you do every time.

      And, no doubt, you believe that the Democratic People's Republic of Korea, is a democracy because, you know, look up the meaning of the word "democracy".

      --
      Starships were meant to fly, Hands up and touch the sky - Nicky Minaj
    263. Re: Why conceal it? by cyber-vandal · · Score: 1

      Hitler sent communists to the gas chambers. The Nazis were no more socialists than the Democratic Republic of Korea is a democracy.

    264. Re:Why conceal it? by roman_mir · · Score: 1

      Collectivists of all colours are masquerading as people with good intentions. Of course their results at the end are the same: destruction of individual freedoms, destruction of the human right for self determination, confiscation of income and wealth by the oppressive, authoritarian government to build the power of the state. I see socialists, fascists, communists, feminists, greens, all religions for what they are: murderers, thieves, dictators, nothing less and nothing more.

    265. Re:Why conceal it? by CanadianMacFan · · Score: 1

      But the big agriculture companies are making large profits so it must be good! /sarcasm

    266. Re: Why conceal it? by cyber-vandal · · Score: 1

      I bet you believe the DEMOCRATIC Republic of Korea is a democracy too. Hitler hated the communists in Russia and betrayed them and invaded their country, killing millions. Hitler was not a socialist or a left winger he was a racist and nationalist right wing lunatic.

    267. Re:Why conceal it? by phantomfive · · Score: 1

      I'm conflicted over this. I agree that the label is intended to stigmatize. But I can't quite see that we shouldn't have them. The people who want the label to be there want it because it's scary sounding and they hope it will dissuade people from buying food that contains GMOs. And those people want to undermine the GMO food industry for a lot of stupid, superstitious, bullshit reasons.

      For me, it's entirely how the product is labeled. If it's a giant scary GMO on the front of the product, I don't support that, because the purpose is to scare people away from buying it.
      If it's a line at the end of the ingredients or something, then I can support that, because the people who care can find out, and the rest of the world doesn't have to be pestered by ideology.

      --
      "First they came for the slanderers and i said nothing."
    268. Re:Why conceal it? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It kinda is. There have been many articles written about how Denmark's leadership keeps saying "Stop calling us socialist!" and I suspect that the rest of the countries with coordinated market economies and a generous welfare state (along with strict immigration laws) would say the same.

    269. Re:Why conceal it? by PsychoSlashDot · · Score: 1

      Why do you think it stigmatizes anything?

      Everyone putting food on the shelf in that state will be required to do this as far as I understand, so _everyone_ is in the same boat.

      The label itself doesn't stigmatize anything. Labels never do. It's the more nebulous "public opinion" that does. Same reason (most) homosexual people don't wear shirts saying "I'm gay". The shirt wouldn't stigmatize anything. But it sure would give ignorant people the means to identify those they wish to discriminate - wrongly - against.

      Wait. There is one way. The label being present denotes a product that "someone in authority" has legislated needs to be identified. It's not the label per se doing the stigmatization but the regulation requiring it sure does.

      This gives consumers the choice.

      This gives consumers the choice they are not qualified to make. It's enabling fear-mongering. It's enabling discrimination on grounds that Joe Average doesn't understand. I'm not saying it should be impossible, or even difficult, to research and find out how a given food is developed. It's just that this label requirement is awfully similar to my country's requirements that cigarette manufacturers print photos of diseased lungs, and rotten hearts on their packages... only unjustified.

      If they want to buy more expensive non GMO options they will be able to make that decision.

      The fear the companies have is that there will be non GMO products available at the same price they have been selling theirs at, and everyone will buy that instead.

      If everyone is using the same base GMO ingredients, then no one has anything to worry about and everyone will keep buying exactly what they are already buying

      I'm not a fan of Monsato and the gang, but until there's some real evidence that GMO is something that matters in a health sense, this is like requiring farmers to put a label on their product saying "fertilized with SHIT". Those companies who do hydroponics will be all for such a label. And the public will be thrilled that they can (pay more to) buy SHIT-free produce. But it's all stupid, because there's no reason to think that hydroponic tomatoes are safer, better, or in any meaningful way different from SHIT tomatoes.

      --
      "Oh no... he found the .sig setting."
    270. Re:Why conceal it? by phantomfive · · Score: 1

      've never seen head of lettuce as containing the Nr gene for aphid resistance bred in from the wild species Lactuca serriola. I've never seen a product containing watermelon labeled as containing an artificially produced polyploid, as seedless watermelons are. I've never seen an apple labeled as being a bud sport, a somatic mutant derived form a chance shoot, as many apples in stores are. I've enver seen citrus labeled as having been developed through radiation induced mutagenesis, yet that happens. I've never seen corn be labeled as having been produced via doubled haploid hybridization, yet that is also a thing.

      When you say it like that, it sounds kind of scary.

      --
      "First they came for the slanderers and i said nothing."
    271. Re: Why conceal it? by cyber-vandal · · Score: 1

      How much do you pay? Citation needed. By the way it's "you're welcome" which you'd know if you'd actually had an education.

    272. Re:Why conceal it? by phantomfive · · Score: 1

      "State law requires us to inform you that this product contains high levels of di-hydrogen monoxide."

      Never eat anything you can't pronounce!

      --
      "First they came for the slanderers and i said nothing."
    273. Re:Why conceal it? by Bing+Tsher+E · · Score: 1

      It only seems like that until your Junior year. Wait and you'll see. The homework load then makes it impossible to have the time to hang out around those cute freshmen chicks at the lit table.

    274. Re: Why conceal it? by smugfunt · · Score: 1

      At no time has Monsanto gone after a farmer for accidental use of Monsanto seeds.

      That is an implicit admission that Monsanto has 'gone after' farmers for using Monsanto seeds. Monsanto's 'intellectual property' has therefore caused problems for farmers who were doing things that in the past were SOP.

    275. Re:Why conceal it? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Whether it's GMO IS material, because, um, that's what the food is composed of. You can argue that GMO doesn't change health risks, but that doesn't mean food with GMO isn't materially different from food without GMO.

      House isn't affected by what person lived and died there. But you can't hide the type of insulation it has just because you think it is as good as the other available types.

    276. Re:Why conceal it? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      When the civilian leadership cripples the troops with impossible ROE and then announces that we're fleeing before any kind of job is actually done, then it's not the army leadership, it's the elected one. Don't blame the military for the politicians' failures.

    277. Re:Why conceal it? by BenBoy · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Well put. For those of us (here in the US) who have forgotten the difference between capitalism and plutocracy (I know, so technical, right?), a couple of citations:
      Information Asymetry.
      Why you (and your 401K) care.
      In short, voting with your dollars for a product whose contents you're forbidden to know is like voting in an election for a candidate behind door number three or taking what's behind the curtain. Kinda like now. But I digress.

    278. Re:Why conceal it? by PopeRatzo · · Score: 1

      Also, non-GM organisms could be patented too, or threaten biodiversity, and the companies that you don't like may also produce non-GM crops that you'd want to avoid. This isn't something that the law needs to get involved with.

      No, it shouldn't be something the law needs to get involved with, but the GMO industry has had plenty of time to accede to the demands of their customers (over 90% want GMO labeling). So now the law gets involved because these corporations won't do what consumers demand.

      --
      You are welcome on my lawn.
    279. Re:Why conceal it? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      How childish people like argue is truly amazing. I also buy food based on its origin and fair trade, it has nothing to do with my health.

    280. Re:Why conceal it? by TechyImmigrant · · Score: 1

      I'm lobbying for you to understand the fallacy of your argument.

      --
      I should use this sig to advertise my book ISBN-13 : 978-1501515132.
    281. Re:Why conceal it? by Bing+Tsher+E · · Score: 1

      I vote that the food producers should label anything that they think MIGHT have any GMO components in it should voluntarily label it GMO. In fact, they should slap the label on everything they produce just to be safe.

      The people terriified of GMO food can live on granola from the health-food-cooperative and those smallish very expensive wilted 'organic' oranges.

    282. Re:Why conceal it? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Whether or not it's GMO is completely immaterial to the product

      HAhqhhahahahahahahhahaa hahahahahhahaha hahhahahahahaha
      Hahahahahhahahahahah ha ah ahahaha

      LOL

    283. Re:Why conceal it? by PsychoSlashDot · · Score: 1

      However, there are reasons beyond health and safety that people might choose one product over another... even irrational reasons.

      So... you're advocating law-enforced legislation for the purpose of enabling irrational behaviour.

      --
      "Oh no... he found the .sig setting."
    284. Re: Why conceal it? by cyber-vandal · · Score: 1

      There have been plenty of articles from more moderate lefties denouncing them but funnily enough they don't listen and In some cases they try to get the person fired too.

      In any case we're no more responsible for their behaviour than moderate righties are responsible for the KKK or Stormfront, both of which have existed for much longer than Jezebel.

    285. Re: Why conceal it? by Bing+Tsher+E · · Score: 1

      And the Communist USSR sent Trotskyites and other leftist factions to the firing squad, early after the revolution, while Lenin was still alive. Though the "Trots" will maintain it was all Stalin's fault.

    286. Re:Why conceal it? by slashping · · Score: 1

      There is no need for the law to get involved, because this problem can be solved perfectly well with a voluntary "does not contain GMO products" label.

    287. Re:Why conceal it? by russotto · · Score: 1

      What a wonderfully ignorant statement that captures the very essence of this argument. While DNA has no "memory" of how it was created, DNA is not the only concern with GMO foods. GMO foods are engineered to contain genes that express proteins that are advantageous to the recipient plant.

      Non-GMO foods contain genes that express proteins that are advantageous to the recipient plant also. The rest of your post is just the argument from ignorance plus the precautionary principal. There is no doubt that some GMO protein could turn out way down the line to cause some subtle health issues. But the same goes for every other (naturally evolved) protein in the plant; if you don't want to eat anything unsafe, you'll have to starve to death.

    288. Re:Why conceal it? by BradleyUffner · · Score: 1

      Otherwise intelligent people are also anti-vax.

    289. Re:Why conceal it? by Aighearach · · Score: 0

      You work "in plant science" that is nice.

      It has nothing to do with politics, or public policy. You "stepped right in it" there.

      I don't give a rats ass what you or your colleagues think; you're certainly not public policy experts. And I really doubt you're a "scientist." That is horse shit, or you'd know how irrelevant that is to what information humans want on labels. It isn't about "education" that you would determine for people, it is about information, the availability of it. Not the quality, or if you agree, or whatever.

      You're more likely a food industry worker with an undergraduate degree with "science" in the name, based on your irrational stance and lack of knowledge about what "science" is and how it relates to this issue.

    290. Re:Why conceal it? by BradleyUffner · · Score: 1

      Because they wan't the legislate GMOs out of business. They haven't been able to convince people using rational arguments, so now they have the have laws passed to but scary labels on things they don't like.

    291. Re:Why conceal it? by Solandri · · Score: 1

      Whether or not it's GMO is completely immaterial to the product.

      I agree. Which is why they should've labeled it without a fuss to start with. At the least, they should've labeled it the same time they started labeling non-GMO products.

      But instead they listened to some marketer who insisted that labeling it would make some people think there was something wrong with it. Well, now with how hard they've been fighting the label, they've succeeded in convincing even more people that there is in fact something wrong with it.

    292. Re:Why conceal it? by Wrath0fb0b · · Score: 2

      Manufacturers are already required to display all sorts of things they would rather not, including caloric content, nutritional value if any, and actual ingredients used to assemble the product, some of which may resemble food.

      Because those things are scientifically proven to be relevant to the health of the human being consuming it. Meanwhile, every single scientific agency and organization has concluded that there is no proven impact to human health from consuming GMOs.

      This is the left's Climate Change conspiracy, where the weight of scientific consensus isn't worth as much as your political loyalties.

    293. Re:Why conceal it? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      In your opinion. Not everyone shares your opinion. Some people have decided that whether a food has GMO ingredients or not makes a difference *to them*. There are enough of them in the state of Vermont that they've passed a law allowing them to know (not restricting your ability to buy foods *with* GMO ingredients there, it's information only). Not agreeing with their opinion doesn't make forcing them to unknowingly eat GMO foods and ingredients against their will any better than stopping you from eating foods with GMO ingredients.

      Your argument is like that of any petty dictator: You believe your opinion is the only right one and so we should stop, by force, all of these wrong-opinioned people who still ostensibly live in a democracy. Neither opinion is dangerous, you just want to stop them from having one that is different from yours.

    294. Re:Why conceal it? by mellon · · Score: 1

      It will almost certainly cost them sales in the short term. However, in the long term forcing them to tell the story of why GMOs are a good idea instead of just hiding the fact that the products are made with GMOs is a better way to get conspiracy freaks to chill. This whole thing could have been over a decade ago if the GMO proponents hadn't tried to dodge public concern. People assume that where there's smoke there's fire, and when you try to stifle public concern about something, it's totally natural for the public to freak out and get paranoid.

    295. Re:Why conceal it? by Frobnicator · · Score: 4, Interesting

      Quite the opposite.

      A free market according to its model requires one thing that does not exist in our reality: A consumer with total information available to him. And while this is impossible, we can still try our best to get to it as close as we possibly can. Because that's what the market model demands.

      That is pretty much the ideal. Give the person all the information and let them make choices based on it.

      Unfortunately it gets back to the great-great-great-however-many-greats-granparent post: Several large, well-funded activist groups have been pushing for labeling of the products plus some disinformation campaigns. Not in an attempt to educate people about the truth of GMO food, but in an attempt to get GMO products killed.

      I'm all for complete labeling and consumer education, but it doesn't play nicely with disinformation and misinformation campaigns.

      Too many people are uninformed or misinformed. This is not just "Roundup Ready" plants. Many in the "natural" movement have caused serious regressions, such as using far more harmful "natural" pesticides when we have alternatives that are tightly focused and less harmful overall. Yet they forget all of the modern fruits and veggies we eat today are the product of several millenna of cross-breeding, selective-breeding, and cultivation.

      Many of those cultivation are dangerous for many reasons. It isn't just superficial things like carrots that are an unnatural orange rather than their natural deep purple. The world loves modern bananas without seeds but can no longer naturally reproduce. A few decades ago thanks to eliminating natural variance, a disease destroyed the world's banana population and a new strain needed to be cultivated. We crave seedless oranges that are so large they are dangerous to the trees and have so few seeds they are also requiring human intervention to reproduce, have less juice and less flavor and are prone to several diseases ... but they are popular because they have easy-to-remove peels and no seeds. Most of the world's avocados are all splices from a single tree, the genetic diversity has vanished in under a century, but it seems growers around the world turn down genetic diversity in favor of the single Hass tree's fruit. Wheat and corn once had long deep roots and low yield; today the plants have barely enough root structure to stand but the wheat plants produce far more wheat kernels, and ears of corn went from a single 25mm cob per plant to multiple cobs more than ten times the size, and now both of them are getting even less genetic diversity with Roundup Ready cultivations being the popular single survivor. Giant, bright-red tomatoes are more colorful and juicy than ever, and in the last 50 years cultivation has been for mass and color rather than flavor, and we are quickly losing genetic diversity.

      Somehow GMO activists tend to not mind the changes giving bigger fruit or popular features over the past many thousand years. It is only the ones done in a chemical lab most activists seem concerned about.

      --
      //TODO: Think of witty sig statement
    296. Re:Why conceal it? by Aighearach · · Score: 1

      And I absolutely support their right to have any over-the-counter vaccinations labeled as such, even though I wouldn't let their kids in public schools. ;)

    297. Re:Why conceal it? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Um, news flash for you: the US military won every battle in Viet Nam but lost the war, and even the US Army official history doesn't claim otherwise (nor do they claim that the media lost the war; they explicitly lay the blame on bad tactics and ill-defined, impossible goals). Between those tactics and the careerist military officers who wouldn't speak out against the increasingly obvious failure of those tactics, we went to hell and stayed there.

      "Peace with Honor" is just another Nixonian lie, right up there with his statements in 1968 and 72 election campaigns that he had "a secret plan to win the war".

      That the NV politicians, VC, and NVA could be as vicious (say in Hue, 1968) as the US was (Strategic Hamlets, Phoenix Program, unrestricted bombing of civilian-loaded cities and neutral countries, poisoning most of VN with organometallic toxins) is neither a surprise nor important in the long run of history.

      If you want to talk about history, go read REAL history, not the distortions you've been fed by your right-wing sources who want to control you.

      "Free your mind and your ass will follow."

    298. Re:Why conceal it? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Random mutations can also create plants/animals that could do all the things you are concerned about (and much more). In fact, a single corn plant in a "naturally bred" field of "organic, non-GMO" corn could have a mutation that produces a few cobs of corn with a protein deadly to humans and which will only be discovered when you eat a few of the kernels in your dinner one night.

      At least the engineered modifications to GMO foods are known and undergo some amount of testing (mostly because the developers will, inevitably, eat the product just to make sure that it doesn't taste like complete crap) unlike natural mutations that get inadvertently propagated.

      Anyway, if someone is fearful of GMO, they can just buy "non-GMO" foods only. Just as if one is fearful of "unnatural" electricity, they live somewhere far from the nearest power-line, generator, or solar panels. Or, if they are excessively fearful of X-Rays, they don't consent to having them done by their dentist or to determine if they have a broken bone. There are so many varieties of Luddites, it's impossible to label everything that they fear -- how, for example, are you going to label radio frequencies once they have left the transmitter?

      In reality, if "may contain GMOs" labeling is required, virtually every product in the store will have that label -- if nothing else, to insulate from lawsuits if a few GMO corn kernels in the bottom of a truck hopper remained before the truck was filled with "non GMO" corn and the load was delivered to the cereal factory. It will be like the "Prop 65" warning sign that appears, "just in case", on virtually every commercial property in California and which is therefore useless.

    299. Re:Why conceal it? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Ingredient labeling and health information is relevant.
      The health impacts of GMO corn, 'Organic corn', and normal corn are all identical.
      Therefore, it is not relevant and labeling should not be required.

      Speeding is a major cause of accidents, both multi- and single-car. Therefore it is relevant to the usage of public roads.
      Ionizing radiation is relevant to cancer. Therefore, sources should be labeled. Non sources, like cell phones, should NOT BE LABELED!

    300. Re:Why conceal it? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Probably for the same reason why your nike shoes or polo shirt don't say: "sweat shop #42, india" on the main label. It just says India.

      I'm not saying GMO's are tantamount to slave labor in badness, but in some peoples eyes its pretty close. Hence why they don't want to show where it came from.

    301. Re:Why conceal it? by bjwest · · Score: 1

      Manufacturers are already required to display all sorts of things they would rather not, including caloric content, nutritional value if any, and actual ingredients used to assemble the product

      And as soon as you can show that GMO food affects consumer health, like the caloric content does, then we should have a warning for GMO as well.

      By that time, it may be too late. Look what the low fat craze and HFCS is not bad for you BS has done to the health of the American population. We still don't know what goes on in our digestive system on a molecular level, and there are some studies that say the DNA of our food may have some effect on us. I'd rather not eat something with pesticide, or resistance to it, somehow built into it on a genetic level without fully knowing that will not effect my health in the future.

      --

      --- Keep the choice with the user..
    302. Re:Why conceal it? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      (AC here that you were responding to).

      I shop at four to six different food stores every week. I rarely eat fast food (maybe five times a year) or at restaurants at all (maybe once a month at the outside). So, you are quite wrong.

      As you suggest, products which are specifically "non-GMO" are generally already labeled so (there's little reason for a manufacturer to go to the expense of insuring no GMO components are in their products if they are not going to tout that fact -- the consumer can't taste or sense the difference unless they do costly DNA sequencing on every sample of the product they buy).

      If I cared about GMO foods (and I don't), I'd buy things that are labeled as 'Non GMO'.

      Manufacturers of any product labeled as "non-GMO" should be dragged through the courts for fraud if a single sample of their product ever shows a GMO ingredient -- legislation should be focused on ensuring that consumers/class action lawyers can do that.

    303. Re:Why conceal it? by Oligonicella · · Score: 1

      Does this include forcing them to display if their product contains that dread chemical dihydrogen monoxide?

    304. Re: Why conceal it? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      That would indeed be great information to have available. Perhaps a QR code that links to an extended list on their website? More information is better, let the consumers sort out the part they actually care about.

    305. Re: Why conceal it? by cyber-vandal · · Score: 1

      So you believe that North Korea is a democracy too then.

    306. Re:Why conceal it? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yes, one is very controlled with minimal, and known, changes to the genome. The other is random and relatively uncontrolled with unpredictable, and historically unknown, changes to the genome.

      Guess which is which. It's rather like the difference between firing a gun in the general direction of the sound of a voice in a crowded hostage situation and a sharpshooter putting a bullet through the the base of the hostage holder's skull.

    307. Re: Why conceal it? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yes

    308. Re:Why conceal it? by PopeRatzo · · Score: 1

      There is no need for the law to get involved, because this problem can be solved perfectly well with a voluntary "does not contain GMO products" label.

      Do you realize that the GMO industry has sued companies for using the "does not contain GMO products" label? I bet you didn't know that.

      --
      You are welcome on my lawn.
    309. Re:Why conceal it? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      List of socialist states

      Current
      (marxist)
      People's Republic of China
      Republic of Cuba
      Lao People's Democratic Republic
      Socialist Republic of Vietnam
      (non marxist)
      People's Republic of Bangladesh
      Republic of Guinea-Bissau
      Co-operative Republic of Guyana
      Republic of India
      Democratic People's Republic of Korea
      Federal Democratic Republic of Nepal
      Portuguese Republic
      Democratic Republic of São Tomé and Príncipe
      Democratic Socialist Republic of Sri Lanka
      United Republic of Tanzania

    310. Re:Why conceal it? by slashping · · Score: 1

      While it is true that we don't know the long term effects of GMO foods, we also don't know the long term effects of many traditionally bred crops, new pesticides/herbicides, additives, or novel combinations/treatments. The biggest (and best known) killer is still the high calorie (fat and sugar) foods, and despite nutrition info on the package, people still eat them.

    311. Re:Why conceal it? by greggman · · Score: 1

      Really? So by your argument consumers should be informed of the race of the people that grew, canned, or are selling the product so they can choose to buy or not buy from certain races.

    312. Re:Why conceal it? by slashping · · Score: 1

      No I didn't know that. Can you give a reference ? But that would be a perfect place for the law to step in, and explicitly allow products to carry such a label.

    313. Re:Why conceal it? by greggman · · Score: 1

      By your argument we should include the race of the people that grew, processed, packaged, and shipped all products as well because

      > Only an informed consumer who knows every aspect of the product could possibly choose the "best" product

      That way people can choose not to buy from certain races.

      There are valid arguments for not including certain labeling. People that think they need to know if something is GMO should be grouped in with people that think vaccines cause autism. It has no place in labeling

    314. Re:Why conceal it? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Labeling is the only reason I only smoke non-GMO cigarettes. They're better for me.

    315. Re:Why conceal it? by Smidge204 · · Score: 1

      Except there's a slight but important difference: Kosher/Halal are about ingredients, which are already labeled on the packaging.

      If a product contains "corn" you have no way of knowing what kind of corn.

      I don't think it is too much to ask that those who do not wish to consume GE crops take responsibility for their own belief system like everyone else.

      And how does one "take responsibility" if they do not have all the requisite information? What you are suggesting is that people just assume, which is not at all the same as being informed.
      =Smidge=

    316. Re:Why conceal it? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      We don't have to prove it isn't safe, the manufacturers have to prove it is. I speak as a biologist with background in genetics.

      However, they consistently refuse to provide such proof, while blocking attempts to have consumer labeling that identifies what foods
      have GMO components.

      Also, there are many GMO crops (StarLink, for one) that are specifically kept OUT OF THE HUMAN FOOD SYSTEM. Hmm, why might that be?

    317. Re: Why conceal it? by Solandri · · Score: 5, Informative
      False. Monsanto routinely went after organic farms for using their seed. These were farms that didn't want the seed in the first place - they considered it a weed because it would upset their customers. It had contaminated their fields.either by blowing there or by cross-pollination.

      The one case involved a farmer who went out of his way to gather the seeds from his neighbor's crops and use them in preference to other seeds.

      That's the way Monsanto portrayed it. Fact is, the judgment against the farmer was reduced by the Canadian Supreme Court to $1 because he didn't do anything to take advantage of the Monsanto seed. He didn't use Round-Up on his crops - he couldn't afford to use it on his fields. He only used it in ditches surrounding his farm to prevent weeds from encroaching into his fields. So there was zero benefit to him going "out of his way to gather the seeds from his neighbor's crops and use them in preference to other seeds." He had no motive for behaving as Monsanto claimed he did. (Incidentally, the resistant seed came from canola in one of these ditches - what he thought was his canola. It was theorized that it was instead blown there from a neighboring farm, or seed which had fallen off a truck driving down the intervening road. He did not gather the seeds from his neighbor as you portray.)

      The Canadian Supreme Court let the ruling against the farmer stand however because they believed Monsanto's argument that its Round-Up Ready resistance could not be spread by pollination, and so the farmer "ought to have known" that any canola which survived being sprayed with Round-Up was their patented seed. This was later shown to be false as they've found the GMO portions of Round-Up Ready resistance in wild plants.

      But the damage was done, and the reason there haven't been recent cases of Monsanto going after farmers is because they've mostly thrown in the towel and just pay Monsanto if they suspect they've got Round-Up Ready crops in their field even if they never knowingly planted it. Which is Monsanto's real goal here - charging rent for the privilege of farming.

      In terms of IP law, this combined with the dismissal of organic farms' opposition is a terrible precedent because it decouples risk from reward. If Monsanto's seed finds its way onto your farm and you benefit from it, Monsanto profits from it. If Monsanto's seed finds it way onto your farm and you are harmed by it, Monsanto is not liable for it. It cannot work that way. Either you are allowed to release a product and profit from it but are liable for the harm it causes, or you are not allowed to release it.

    318. Re:Why conceal it? by ewibble · · Score: 1, Troll

      What like the USA? Oh wait that probably the country that has experienced it the least.

      The horror of when you get sick, being able to know you can afford to go to the hospital. If you loose your job knowing you won't be on the street.

      Sounds horrendous, Socialism is only a dirty word in the USA because of some nation wide brain washing left over from the cold war. Sure supporting everybody no matter how little they do is not a good thing, and people should rewarded for their hard work. It is not an all or nothing proposition you can have a balance.

    319. Re:Why conceal it? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It maybe news to you, but food is sold on the assumption that it is non-radioactive.

    320. Re:Why conceal it? by thegarbz · · Score: 1

      God that statement makes me sad for our human race. The only thing worse on this topic than food-babe's existence is the fact she has followers.

    321. Re:Why conceal it? by khallow · · Score: 1

      Napoleon was only the, some say inevitable, aftermath of the rein of terror after the French Revolution.

      And some say the Moon is made of green cheese. Just because Napoleon might be inevitable doesn't mean he had to be competent.

    322. Re:Why conceal it? by Rockoon · · Score: 1

      Your argument boils down to: People don't think/believe/do what you want, therefore they should be denied their right to know.

      I believe that all foods that do not use Black Magic in their growth and preparation should be labeled as such.

      Before you go there, how dare you deny my right to know.

      --
      "His name was James Damore."
    323. Re: Why conceal it? by sumdumass · · Score: 1

      Democracy has little to do with communism in practice.

    324. Re:Why conceal it? by Rockoon · · Score: 1

      Giving consumers the ability to choose what they eat outweighs the 'freedom' the manufacturer has to display what they want.

      Which is why there should be clear labeling whenever the manufacturer neglected to use black magic. Even fruits should have stickers on them if black magic wasn't used. Its very dangerous not to use black magic when growing food. The public has a right to know.

      --
      "His name was James Damore."
    325. Re:Why conceal it? by penguinoid · · Score: 4, Interesting

      It maybe news to you, but food is sold on the assumption that it is non-radioactive.

      Uh, no. Food is sold on the assumption that it is always radioactive. It isn't labeled as radioactive because every food item would have that label.

      And I really am in favor of labeling all food with the measure of radioactivity per serving. It would be educational for paranoid idiots whose stupidity is harming my health.

      --
      Don't waste your vote! Vote for whoever you want, unless you live in a swing state it won't matter anyways
    326. Re:Why conceal it? by PopeRatzo · · Score: 1
      --
      You are welcome on my lawn.
    327. Re:Why conceal it? by ShanghaiBill · · Score: 1

      In the USA, liberal today in the basically socialist.

      Not really. When self identified "liberals" and "conservatives" are asked their views on specific issues, the issue where they differ the most is abortion. On that issue, it is the liberals who want less government interference in our lives.

    328. Re:Why conceal it? by Aighearach · · Score: 1

      And they have every right to labeling of school books that disagree as "science" or with a "no religious content" mark if they're not sure which book is their Good Book and which isn't, if they can get enough support for the policy.

    329. Re:Why conceal it? by Aighearach · · Score: 1

      Don't worry, being intelligent has nothing to do with people thinking you're right. Or with you thinking they're right, even.

    330. Re:Why conceal it? by dryeo · · Score: 1

      You do know that GMO is a tool and like all tools, can be used for good and bad. Just because so far it has been used for good does not mean that it'll always be used the same way.
      We live in a capitalist society and history has shown that given the chance, the capitalist will choose profit, even if it means taking shortcuts that are harmful. Hide the use of the tool and possibly the businesses will start taking shortcuts on testing, with a "good enough, lets ship" attitude that seems to eventually infect so many businesses.
      So just because so far GMO has been used responsibly, does not mean it will always be used responsibly as it just takes one ex-tobacco CEO to be in charge of a GMO product line.

      --
      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inverted_totalitarianism
    331. Re: Why conceal it? by cyber-vandal · · Score: 1

      I know but saying that the Nazis were socialists just because they said they were is as illogical as saying Kim Jong Un is a democrat just because he says he is. Hitler hated communists and invaded Russia with the intent to destroy them.

    332. Re:Why conceal it? by slashping · · Score: 1

      Good to read that they won the case, at least, even though they had to add a disclaimer.

    333. Re:Why conceal it? by Dog-Cow · · Score: 1

      Kosher is about more than the ingredients. I don't know about Halal.

    334. Re:Why conceal it? by Dog-Cow · · Score: 2

      We've been eating GMO food for decades. Can you find one medical or lab report that implicates GMO food in a medical diagnosis or lab result?

    335. Re:Why conceal it? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      good idea. the first thing to be labelled, then, are bananas. yes, bananas. because of the natural isotopic distribution of Potassium, they can be used to check the operation of radiation meters.

    336. Re:Why conceal it? by Dog-Cow · · Score: 1

      I should think that you should have to demonstrate that there is a fallacy in the first place. I realize you're a paranoid-delusional, but for everyone else, fallacies don't exist just because you declare them to be.

    337. Re:Why conceal it? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      A purely socialist society cannot and will not work. Neither will a purely capitalist society (its what we in the U.S have now...it only works for the wealthiest). A successful society will have elements of both along with other ideas mixed in.

    338. Re:Why conceal it? by Dog-Cow · · Score: 1

      You are free to request this information of the companies producing food you would like to purchase. No one is stopping you, and most companies will gladly answer such questions. Those that won't can be avoided. Why is it so hard to take personal responsibility for your life choices?

    339. Re:Why conceal it? by Dog-Cow · · Score: 1

      Why does it have to be easy? If you want to know the status of your food, grow it yourself, you lazy fuck-tard.

    340. Re:Why conceal it? by Dog-Cow · · Score: 1

      Only a pure idiot would define intelligence that way.

    341. Re:Why conceal it? by jedidiah · · Score: 2

      > and we have reached a prosperity level that most of the world, and I dare say including the US, envy us for.

      Only because of liberal media propaganda...

      Most Americans that actually get to see the European lifestyle don't consider it prosperous at all. Socialism in general and in it's European version distorts the value of labor and personal effort even in the working class.

      Americans are free to make irresponsible choices that aren't available to Europeans.

      --
      A Pirate and a Puritan look the same on a balance sheet.
    342. Re:Why conceal it? by Applehu+Akbar · · Score: 1

      Yes, but I'm with parent. Any level of radioactivity, even one atom of bismuth, should be on the food label. It's the only honest way.

    343. Re:Why conceal it? by jedidiah · · Score: 1

      My wife disavowed herself of "feminists" in college after she got married (to me) because of all of their perverse expectation of what that meant (marriage).

      Modern feminists really are damaging the brand.

      --
      A Pirate and a Puritan look the same on a balance sheet.
    344. Re:Why conceal it? by Applehu+Akbar · · Score: 1

      Food labels today list ingredients. GMO is not an ingredient.

    345. Re:Why conceal it? by Applehu+Akbar · · Score: 1

      "Even if you think that GMO is the greatest thing since sliced bread, you pretty much have to accept the argument that most GMO is Monsanto-related, and that Monsanto is literally evil."

      Then why do you people rip up fields of golden rice, a GMO that is open source and has nothing to do with Monsanto?"

    346. Re: Why conceal it? by sumdumass · · Score: 1

      History sort of tells a different story. It is widely known that Hitler co-opted the communist success with the working class. But it is also widely known what you say about hitler's views is true to.

      So you see, he used communism internally to gain power in order to exterminate communism externally which he labeled as a conspiracy of the Jews to enslave the world.

    347. Re:Why conceal it? by Jerry+Atrick · · Score: 1

      "The fear the companies have is that there will be non GMO products available at the same price they have been selling theirs at, and everyone will buy that instead"

      Finally.

      The vast majority of GM food is designed to be cheaper to grow, not be better as food. As long as you can't distinguish it from non GM food you can't assess a fair price for it. You can't do the arithmetic and work out how much of the saving the patent owning company is siphoning off, or work out if you're getting a good deal.

      The industry is afraid the public will realise the cost benefits aren't reaching them, that there's no reason to buy GM.

    348. Re:Why conceal it? by repvik · · Score: 1

      "steal and redistribute", and this garbage is voted 3, Insightful? WTF.

    349. Re:Why conceal it? by ShanghaiBill · · Score: 4, Interesting

      just like how the Mongols bypassed the great wall of China

      Minor historical quibble: It was the Manchurians, not the Mongols, that breached the wall by "bribing the guards", and they didn't just bribe a few sentries. They used a combination of bribes and threats to cause entire Han armies to defect to their side. In 1644, Manchuria had about 2% of the population of Ming Dynasty China, yet they were able to conquer all of China, and much more surrounding territory, including Tibet, Xinjiang, and much of southern Siberia. China the only empire that expanded, not by conquering, but by being conquered and then demographically swamping and absorbing their conquerors.

    350. Re:Why conceal it? by jedidiah · · Score: 1

      > The people terriified of GMO food can live on granola

      No. Just make your own stuff from actual ingredients that don't need labels because they are themselves just simple agricultural commodities.

      Most GMO crops serve as cheap fuel for the JUNK FOOD industry. This isn't about "feeding the world" or any other nonsense like that. This is all about making a cheaper TWINKIE.

      So if you avoid processed junk in shiny plastic packages, then you avoid much of this GMO concern.

      --
      A Pirate and a Puritan look the same on a balance sheet.
    351. Re:Why conceal it? by Dog-Cow · · Score: 1

      1) VT is in the US.

      2) Contrary to "popular" belief, farmers aren't forced to use GMO seeds. They choose to do so because it's advantageous.

    352. Re:Why conceal it? by Dog-Cow · · Score: 1

      The companies bringing food to your supermarket are not the companies producing the GMO seed. Monsanto isn't going to market to your because you're not their customer.

      Do you quiz car dealerships on where and under what conditions the raw materials of their vehicles were mined?

    353. Re:Why conceal it? by jedidiah · · Score: 1

      > They can choose what they want to display. They don't want to display foods with a certain label, they don't manufacture them.

      Kellogs has had trouble with this. They wanted to get in on the anti-GMO bandwagon but found their options limited since some crops are already highly dominated by GMO varieties. Some of their big brands CANT be non-GMO.

      Now I think they should have gone ahead with embracing non-GMO. They could have just been honest and up front about the brands they couldn't change. They might have even triggered some changes that would have allowed them to go all non-GMO.

      They could have portrayed it as listening to the consumer while being honest with the limitations they have to work under.

      --
      A Pirate and a Puritan look the same on a balance sheet.
    354. Re:Why conceal it? by Dog-Cow · · Score: 1

      Buy foods that are labelled non-GMO. There are hundreds of such products. There are supermarkets that specialize in such products. It's not that hard. Stop legislating just to save your lazy ass a little bit of work.

    355. Re:Why conceal it? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      > If they're happy with it, if it has advantages they can sell the consumers, then they should sell it to consumers on its advantages.

      True.

      > Why would you try to conceal GMO products from the consumer? It's confirmation that the makers of GMO products have something to hide!

      GMO is an adjective just like synthetic: on itself it means exactly nothing.

      I might favor a GMO chicken with DNA altered to have 18 "drumsticks" (because that's my favourite piece -- weird name BTW, English is so much fun...NOT); what I don't like is eating food like a plant with increased content of an aggressive natural poison for insects which might give me problems in the long run -- after I've paid for them and made some big corporation owners rich beyond belief (actually I don't mind they getting rich, but I'm not really appreciative of the "me dying" part... sorry for being so egocentric).

      This and the fact that they want to sell GMO things RIGHT NOW instead of waiting some 100 years till we separate what is good for consumption from what's not. Why such hurry? :-)

      The fact that corporations can lobby and have a greater weight in law preparation also does not help. If we wanted them to rule, it would be "corporationcracy" and not democracy. The particle "demo-" should give them a hint that they are not welcome in the law production chain (I'm trying to avoid expressions like "fsck them", because I usually write "M$" and idi^W people misread me as childish...).

    356. Re:Why conceal it? by Dog-Cow · · Score: 1

      Is there legislation which requires disclosing the type of insulation in a building, if that insulation does not contain a substance, such as asbestos, which is known to pose health risks? I'll wait while you try to find any.

    357. Re:Why conceal it? by jedidiah · · Score: 1

      So... the voter analogy here would be Monsanto suing the League of Women voters.

      We can't have those stupid consumers having too much information. They might choose the wrong option. They might vote for a candidate we don't agree with. Can't have that.

      I despise the average person as much as the next guy (probably more) but I still think they should be free to make that wrongful choice. They should also have as much information as possible with which to make that wrongful choice.

      --
      A Pirate and a Puritan look the same on a balance sheet.
    358. Re:Why conceal it? by Dog-Cow · · Score: 1

      Umm, either the tomato has gluten or it doesn't. You don't put on a label that reads "GMO-produced gluten", you just print "contains: gluten". If your tomato triggers peanut allergies, you take it off the market, because you screwed up.

      If you can't find any actual examples of bad things happening, you are spreading FUD, and you deserve to be drowned in it.

    359. Re:Why conceal it? by Dog-Cow · · Score: 1

      Right. The farmers who use those seeds did a cost-benefit analysis, and when that showed it would cost them significantly more, they yelled "hell, yeah!" and bought all they could find.

      Why do people think farmers are idiots? Projecting, is my guess.

    360. Re:Why conceal it? by Dog-Cow · · Score: 0

      Monsanto isn't marketing to food consumers, you idiot. They are marketing to food producers, because there's a benefit to them.

      Please go off and choke on a nice piece of Organically-grown apple.

    361. Re:Why conceal it? by Dog-Cow · · Score: 1

      Funny thing... we know about all sorts of naturally-occurring foods and strains which trigger allergies, but not a single GMO-produced trait. If you spread FUD, you deserve death by a thousand organically-grown coconuts falling on your head.

    362. Re:Why conceal it? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You're an asshole, and fuck you.

      Wow. You're just super at conversation, aren't you? I stopped reading there, so if you had anything useful to contribute, you shouldn't have buried under crude ad-hominem.

    363. Re: Why conceal it? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "Some food producers, for example, would argue that "humane treatment" of animals is "completely immaterial to the product.""

      Yes, and I'd take the same umbrage at people arguing for mandatory "factory farmed" labelling.

    364. Re:Why conceal it? by ChromeAeonium · · Score: 1

      which are already labeled on the packaging.

      Sometimes they are, but the key things is that they are voluntary and not required by law, and when was the last time you saw a non-Kosher or Haram label? No one is saying never have labels; I'm saying don't make them legally required.

      And how does one "take responsibility" if they do not have all the requisite information?

      I literally said exactly how in my post. There is a certain list of things you avoid, or by explicitly labeled as non-GMO variants. That's how you do it. Just like how a Muslim knows not to eat bacon, even if there is no label in the ingredients section specifically saying that it is Haram, you can tell quite simply what foods probably contain GE ingredients learning about your own dietary restrictions and checking the ingredients. If you can't be buggered to spend 10 minutes learning about your own dietary belief system, then either you don't really care much about it anyway, or the push for labeling is just an attempt to further stigmatize genetic engineering. Given that major anti-GE groups like the Non-GMO Project clearly state what you need to do to avoid GE crops yet people still push for labels, this whole manufactroversy is clearly the latter case.

    365. Re:Why conceal it? by TechyImmigrant · · Score: 1

      So being wrong about stuff is a sign of intelligence?

      --
      I should use this sig to advertise my book ISBN-13 : 978-1501515132.
    366. Re:Why conceal it? by PopeRatzo · · Score: 1

      Do you quiz car dealerships on where and under what conditions the raw materials of their vehicles were mined?

      No, but I can get a list of the patented products that go into my car.

      All I want is the same thing for food. Because I do not want basic foodstuffs to be covered by intellectual property laws. That's the number one concern that makes me want all GMO foods labeled.

      --
      You are welcome on my lawn.
    367. Re:Why conceal it? by jader3rd · · Score: 1

      Why would you try to conceal GMO products from the consumer? It's confirmation that the makers of GMO products have something to hide!

      It's not that there's something to hide, it could just comes down to cost. How much does it cost to find out if any one of the perfectly safe ingredients in your supply chain can be labeled as GMO? It could be a lot. Plus, there's the overhead of changing the labeling just for Vermont. Then the logistics of making sure that Vermont only good end up only in Vermont, and non-Vermont goods stay out of Vermont.

      There's nothing to hide, but there also could be nothing to be gained.

    368. Re:Why conceal it? by jader3rd · · Score: 1

      In a properly democratic society, that means food should require labeling regardless of if it makes sense or not.

      But when people believe that they feel the need to be informed is for safety purposes, and yet this is completely a non-food safety issue, that information is now deceptive. And it is not good for some members of a society to be enforcing deceptive information onto the rest of the populous.

      When the information actually effects you, I agree with your stance. But given that the GMO vs non-GMO doesn't affect your body at all, I find this information to be more of a hindrance than a help.

    369. Re:Why conceal it? by jader3rd · · Score: 1

      You're assuming that they know that every item in their product chain is GMO-free. They may not know. They know that it's safe, and they know what it does for their product; because so far, that's all that they needed to know.

    370. Re:Why conceal it? by jader3rd · · Score: 1

      I don't believe the dangers of GMOs are from a health standpoint.

      But most people do believe that it's a health thing. Even the first comment in this thread is about the safety of the food.
      So recognizing that most people do believe that it's a health issue, do you think it is better to have a label which will be taken as deceptive or not?

    371. Re:Why conceal it? by Aighearach · · Score: 1

      They don't know, because last year they didn't have labeling requirements. This isn't rocket surgery. They do in fact need to know about their supply chain. I've worked in the food packing industry and they're required to have a lot of information about the ingredients. Just because they don't put all that info on the box doesn't mean they don't know where anything came from.

    372. Re:Why conceal it? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Try that analogy again when people are trying to legally mandate labelling of all non-Kosher/Halal foods. No one has a problem with GMO Free labels, aside from them likely being used to charge more off the back of public ignorance.

    373. Re:Why conceal it? by aralin · · Score: 5, Interesting

      There is a little problem with your narrative. For decades now the US pharma companies almost exclusively concentrate on drugs that treat symptoms rather than underlying diseases. Every drug also has a laundry list of side effects for which you take other drugs to manage those. It is madness. On top of it, they are allowed to advertise their products. I have zero confidence in this industry actually producing anything beneficial other than profits.

      The food industry is even worse. When I live in a totalitarian communist country a chocolate had cocoa butter, milk and sugar. Now that Nestle took over the factory, it has palm oil, high fructose corn syrup, lactose, milk powder and dozens of color and taste enhancers. How is this better?

      Socialism might be dirty word, but it is the norm across the Western Europe and now with the fall of Soviet Union also across the Eastern part. Before there was a dictatorship of proletariat, authoritarian system that had nothing to do with socialism except for name.

      And when it comes to Bernie Sanders, he could not run in any country in EU. You know why? He is a right wing nut. Yes, that is right. If his policies were proposed in any EU country, including UK, the people there would revolt against them. Because 10 days of paid vacation is simply inhuman. Only 12 weeks of maternity is barbarity. Nobody would stand for such right wing craziness. Even the Tories in UK are left of Sanders on social issues.
       

      --
      If programs would be read like poetry, most programmers would be Vogons.
    374. Re:Why conceal it? by blogagog · · Score: 2

      Sounds like you are creating straw men and roundly thrashing them!

      Move to Venezuela for a year before you tell me how good socialism is.

    375. Re: Why conceal it? by chentiangemalc · · Score: 1

      Because many people have an irrational fear of GMO, just like people fear MSG for no good reason ...

    376. Re:Why conceal it? by aralin · · Score: 1

      Actually you should at least get the legend right. The stab in the back legend was basically saying that the Jewish owners of the munition factories decided that the war needs to end and stopped producing munition and shipping it to the front lines. Could be other legends in other countries, but this is the one in Germany.

      --
      If programs would be read like poetry, most programmers would be Vogons.
    377. Re:Why conceal it? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Bananas are radioactive. One Banana Equivalent Dose (BED) is roughly 0.1 Sv. It is due to the naturally occurring Potassium isotopes.

    378. Re:Why conceal it? by aralin · · Score: 1

      You are talking maybe about Romania, but what the grandparent post says is true in most of West and Center of Europe. Anywhere from France to Poland and Hungary pretty much. The entire political spectrum of EU is left of the entire political spectrum of US. Bernie Sanders, if he proposed whatever he is proposing in US would be labeled as right wing nut. Liberals in EU are way to the right of everybody as we don't have anything even remotely resembling liberal agenda in EU.

      --
      If programs would be read like poetry, most programmers would be Vogons.
    379. Re:Why conceal it? by bjwest · · Score: 1

      Traditionally bred crops don't contain DNA from incompatible and/or non plant species or totally man made sequences. Other than the lowered nutritional value, it can reasonably be considered safe. The monster crops Monsanto is pushing out on us, however, cannot. Not without major testing that they won't allow, or are hiding the results of because they know it's harmful. If people want to eat GMO foods without knowing fully the effects it has on their bodies, so be it, labelling won't stop them. Just let those of us who don't want to gamble with our future health, or that of our children, decide for ourselves.

      The cigarette industry fought against labelling cigarette packages and hid studies of the harmful effects for years. Do you think the food industry is above doing this? I don't, and I prefer to error on the side of caution when it comes to my health.

      The old saying "you are what you eat" is truer than you think. You body is made up 100% of what you eat and drink, and it's manufacturing system works on a molecular level. Eat what you want and give me the information to eat what I want.

      --

      --- Keep the choice with the user..
    380. Re:Why conceal it? by Bartles · · Score: 1

      Those nations you are thinking of aren't socialist. Socialism isn't the warm, fuzzy, western european welfare state that you are thinking of. Socialism is totalitarian, and it is evil, and it has never been brought to a country by revolution without killing millions.

    381. Re:Why conceal it? by Bartles · · Score: 3, Funny

      He meant Herbert Humphrey.

    382. Re: Why conceal it? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Well I personally would recommend France, the wine and cheese are excellent

    383. Re:Why conceal it? by Bartles · · Score: 1

      Socialism is only a dirty word to people that understand what socialism is. A single payer healthcare system, does not socialism make. That impressiion that has been forced upon you the entirety of the time you have been politically aware, is wrong.

    384. Re:Why conceal it? by Bartles · · Score: 1

      You think we have a purely capitalist society (you mean economy, it's an economic system)? Are you nuts, or just stupid?

    385. Re:Why conceal it? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Nope, trying to remove socialism by our moronic short lived ex-PM caused massive country wide protests in Australia in the weeks following his election and when his deception became apparent he wanted to privatize everything. Fastest disapproval rating for a PM ever. So no, socialism is a wonderful word in many countries that have it.

    386. Re:Why conceal it? by roman_mir · · Score: 1

      I know, it is amazing, sometimes the objective truth gets upvotes.

    387. Re:Why conceal it? by Bartles · · Score: 1

      For you there in Europe? You mean like Greece? Italy? Portugal? Spain? The more socialist a European nation gets, the worse off it and it's people are.

    388. Re: Why conceal it? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yes but that's because most Americans like shitey throwaway crap that noone else would like, like liquid cheese in a tube

    389. Re:Why conceal it? by Bing+Tsher+E · · Score: 2

      Hint: Most of the packages you find in the pet section of the supermarket that have pictures of cats on them don't actually contain cat meat.

    390. Re:Why conceal it? by Bartles · · Score: 1

      Look at the economic success of the countries on that list. It's like the who's who of the 1st world.

    391. Re:Why conceal it? by dougmc · · Score: 1

      What are the medical dangers from eating or not eating a kosher or halal diet? None.

      If you wanted to bring in an analogy of kosher or halal food, the appropriate analogy would be the people making kosher or halal food pushing for a mandate that all non-kosher/halal food be labeled.

      Of course, they aren't doing that, and they aren't telling people (with no scientific evidence) that non-kosher/halal food is untested, dangerous or causes cancer or something either.

    392. Re:Why conceal it? by Bartles · · Score: 1

      Are you under the impression that socialism can survive without being authoritarian?

    393. Re:Why conceal it? by St.Creed · · Score: 1

      While I exaggerated slightly in one way, you go overboard in the other direction...

      The stab in the back legend was coined by Ludendorff who blamed all sorts of things, including strikes at munition factories, but mostly the social democrat and communist parties(SPD/KPD). During the twenties this turned more and more in an anti-semitic direction, but that didn't prevent the assassination of many leaders of the Weimar republic by extreme rightwing forces (like Rathenau and Erzberger) based on a general sentiment that they were to blame for the loss of the war and the Versailles treaty. Ludendorff and others claimed this.

      The nazis jumped on it and gave it their own twist. Adolf Hitler wrote about it in Mein Kampf, claiming the existence of an alliance between Bolsheviks, center-left Weimar politicians, and Jews in a conspiracy to defeat Germany from within. Strikes in munition factories were just a part of it - uprisings, large scale mutiny, Jewish and Bolshevik agitation were a part of it as well. And so was the press. The term "lügenpresse" comes from this era, meaning "lying press" and targeted the press specifically. This was a part of the whole conspiracy theory, although not the main part.

      Sources (in German):
      - https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/...
      - https://www.dhm.de/lemo/kapite...
      The latter one is the site of the German History Museum.

      --
      Therefore, by the (faulty) logic you're using, you're just a cow with a keyboard - osu-neko (2604)
    394. Re:Why conceal it? by Bartles · · Score: 1

      Wait. You're equating the health benefits of GMO with that of Uranium? Don't you believe in science?

    395. Re:Why conceal it? by dougmc · · Score: 1

      Farmers buy seeds from Monsanto and other companies because those seeds provide benefits that are more than worth the cost. Period.

      Monsanto may have some unethical business practices (though to be fair -- I've never seen any real evidence of this) but the same can be said of any large corporation. And from what I can tell, Monsanto's most unethical business practice that's actually true (they're accused of a lot of things that aren't true) seems to be that they make seeds and don't give them away for free.

    396. Re:Why conceal it? by Bartles · · Score: 1

      Really? By forcing everybody, regardless of their views on abortion, to pay for the abortions for whoever wants one?

    397. Re:Why conceal it? by Bartles · · Score: 0

      I think the only option available to you, is for you to produce all of your own food. It's the only way you will actually know what's in it. Let us know how that goes.

    398. Re: Why conceal it? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Our media is center at best. If you'd ever left your basement or this country you would know that

      Also it's cute you hate socialism so much. Ignorance and stupidity in the face of reality is just so adorable on a Sunday afternoon.

      The real thing to fear is capitalism. We murder democratically elected heads of state, and say "it's for freedom." How does that work?

      We've murdered over a million Iraqis but you're not out here talking tangentially about that.

      Stop being such a fucking idiot, or shut up and die already so the rest of us can (get on with progress).

      Ps I have a masters in Econ so I'm gonna say you're libertarian ass is gonna end up a bit out classed on this argument.

    399. Re:Why conceal it? by dougmc · · Score: 1

      The advantages of GMO food are usually to the producer or the farmer rather than the final consumer of the food.

      That said, there's a few exceptions -- the Arctic Apple that doesn't brown so easily, the reduced carcinogen (all potatoes have acrylamide which is suspected to cause cancer) "Innate" potatoes, Golden Rice that provides vitamin A, etc. Since there's a difference (an advantage) to the end user, these things are indeed labelled voluntarily, because they're believed to be better.

      But as for the seed that's sold to the farmer, absolutely, it's labelled. The farmer knows exactly what he's buying, and he knows why he's paying extra for it -- because for his purposes, it's better. (If it wasn't, he wouldn't buy it.)

      But the end product, what he sells? It has no practical difference from the non-GMO variety, so there's no reason to label it as different except as a "scarlet letter" to be pushed for by the people who want to make their non-GMO foods look better than the the GMO varieties. Of course, they already have a label for that -- "organic" -- though to be fair, "organic" means more than simply non-GMO. (Though there are some non-GMO labels they can voluntarily use as well if they want.)

      In any event, the organic certification allows crops altered with mutagenisis -- where things are treated with radiation or mutation inducing chemicals and they see what happens, and if they like it they keep it -- which always struck me as far more scary than anything involving transgenics which is much more controlled, but hey, our ruby red grapefruit, that's organic, even though it was made with mutagensis and not tested anywhere near as much as something made with transgenics, because of ... reasons.

    400. Re:Why conceal it? by mixed_signal · · Score: 1

      There's no justification in not providing information to consumers. I prefer to know whether the food my family purchases is locally grown, from the US, Canada, south of the border or elsewhere. The long term environmental consequences of GMOs are yet clear (e.g. more pesticide/herbicide use leading to resistance, etc.; see, for example: http://phys.org/news/2014-01-s...)

    401. Re:Why conceal it? by Bartles · · Score: 1

      GMO is plural, not singular.

    402. Re:Why conceal it? by mixed_signal · · Score: 1

      It may be perfectly healthy to consume GMO foods, but the environmental consequences of them are not clear.

    403. Re:Why conceal it? by mixed_signal · · Score: 2

      "GMO is not an ingredient." No, it's an adjective telling you something about the ingredients, similar to "organic" (if applied consistently). If "wheat" or "corn" meant something consistent up until about 20 years ago, then it would be go to know if something quite different is being used.

    404. Re:Why conceal it? by Bartles · · Score: 1

      People aren't allergic to peanuts. They are allergic to a specific protein found in peanuts. The great thing about modifying genes, is that you get to select the specific genes that you want to modify. It's called science, and your irrational fear doesn't change that.

    405. Re: Why conceal it? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      0.1 micro-Sievets: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Banana_equivalent_dose

    406. Re: Why conceal it? by cyber-vandal · · Score: 1

      What communism did he use? Did he nationalise all the industry? He was a fascist like Mussolini not a communist like Stalin.

    407. Re:Why conceal it? by Smidge204 · · Score: 1

      for safety purposes

      Not that it matters WHY, but what makes you think that it's a safety concern?

      It could be out of environmental concern, since a lot of GMO crops are made to allow use or more pesticides and herbicides.

      Or it could be out of concern that the companies that produce GMOs end up having an effective monopoly on the crops, since it's explicitly illegal to replant using seeds from the harvest... in other words, farmers have to buy more seed every crop cycle.

      Or it could just be on general principle.

      Safety is only one of several potential reasons why someone might not want to purchase foods made with GMOs.
      =Smidge=

    408. Re:Why conceal it? by aralin · · Score: 1

      That sounds about right. Thanks for the correction.

      --
      If programs would be read like poetry, most programmers would be Vogons.
    409. Re:Why conceal it? by Smidge204 · · Score: 1

      Sometimes they are, but the key things is that they are voluntary and not required by law

      The FDA has a pretty long list of requirements for food labeling, including but not limited to identifying what's in the package.

      I literally said exactly how in my post. There is a certain list of things you avoid, or by explicitly labeled as non-GMO variants. That's how you do it.

      What you actually said was, people should avoid anything that MIGHT be a GMO. (The words you used were "reasonably assume"). Good luck avoiding things that contain corn, rice and wheat.
      =Smidge=

    410. Re:Why conceal it? by saigon_from_europe · · Score: 1

      Really? By forcing everybody, regardless of their views on abortion, to pay for the abortions for whoever wants one?

      Doing a job of "by forcing everybody to pay for X , regardless of their views on X", is what government does. And X may be a thing like war, education, space exploration, roads, water supply... Abortion is no exception in that sense.

      --
      No sig today.
    411. Re:Why conceal it? by skam240 · · Score: 1

      The South Vietnamese government were not some happy capitalist / democratic good guys. They committed terrible human rights abuses, were massively corrupt and most definitely didnt represent the democratic will of the people it claimed to represent. Now I'm not saying the communist North Vietnamese were some kind of heroes who respected human rights but what I am saying that if the war had been won by us and the government of the South controlled the whole country it is quite likely that it would have been just as bad for the people of Vietnam as it was under the communists.

      --
      I ignore Anonymous Coward posts. If you want to discuss something, that's awesome. Log in.
    412. Re:Why conceal it? by Bartles · · Score: 1

      Yes it is. In 99.9% of cases it is elective. And don't act like there are no ethical issues surrounding it.

    413. Re:Why conceal it? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The American media is solidly left-wing and has been so since the days of Vietnam when they turned Peace With Honor in 1972 into the perception of a defeat in 1975. The crimes of socialism are responsible for the negative reputation of socialism. What did the North Vietnamese do in 1975 that could have tarnished the reputation? Oh, right, invading and conquering another country with tanks, and then murdering the right-wingers. Who has even heard of this history?

      Where is any of that socialism? Or where is the socialism in any of that?

      Conquering another country, with tanks, or without, does not socialism make, nor does the slaughter of the opposition, or else we'd have to declare the Gileadites to be Socialist.

      Please give us an example of actual socialist crimes.

         

    414. Re:Why conceal it? by dryeo · · Score: 1

      One Genetically Modified Organism (GMO)
      Two Genetically Modified Organisms (GMO)
      'Tis both.

      --
      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inverted_totalitarianism
    415. Re: Why conceal it? by Bartles · · Score: 1

      Yes, but in your post the usage is plural but your verbage is singular.

    416. Re:Why conceal it? by jader3rd · · Score: 1

      but what makes you think that it's a safety concern?

      Because when it came up in Washington state, when anyone I talked to who was for the labeling their concern was always "Isn't GMO food less safe?"

    417. Re:Why conceal it? by Bartles · · Score: 1

      Unless of course you were talking about a single organism, which means you were missing the indefinite article. I'm just going grammar NAZI, because there is a common propensity out there for people to use "GMO" when they should be using "GE". But of course those people that are concerned about GMO and GE, don't really care about reality, definitions, or facts. They are more concerned about chemicals, and processing, and radiation.

    418. Re:Why conceal it? by turbidostato · · Score: 1

      "You are free to request this information of the companies producing food you would like to purchase."

      Yes, and given my understanding of how much it could cost to me act that way and how much it would cost to me to read the label, I take another path I'm also free to take: requesting my representatives to pass a law for such information to be in the label.

      "Why is it so hard to take personal responsibility for your life choices?"

      Why is it so hard for some pseudo-liberals to understand how representative democracy works?

    419. Re:Why conceal it? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      As GP points out, this is the very opposite of anything that can reasonably be called "true". Socialism is not a "dirty word" in places that have experienced it.

      "Capitalism", now...

    420. Re:Why conceal it? by DrJimbo · · Score: 1

      There are valid arguments for not including certain labeling. People that think they need to know if something is GMO should be grouped in with people that think vaccines cause autism. It has no place in labeling

      So by avoiding GMO foods someone can cause harm to others via an outbreak of measles or other potentially deadly diseases? Can you explain how that works? Another difference is that people know when they are getting vaccinations and they have access to information about what is in the vaccinations.

      The only similarity perhaps is that you think both groups are idiots. I have no sympathy for the anti-vaxers but I do have sympathy for people who want to personally avoid GMO foods, just like I had sympathy 40 years ago for people who had the far-out idea of avoiding non-organic foods. If people want to pay extra to avoid GMO foods then more power to them. I don't see how they are harming others by this choice.

      An example of the common perception of organic/health food in the 1970s is illustrated in the lyrics of Escape (the Pina Colada Song):

      If you're not into yoga, if you have half a brain
      [...] I'm not much into health food

      I don't know how to fix the anti-vaxer problem but one thing I do know is that restricting information about the vaccines (like information on GMO foods is restricted) will only make the problem worse, not better.

      --
      We don't see the world as it is, we see it as we are.
      -- Anais Nin
    421. Re: Why conceal it? by dilvish_the_damned · · Score: 1

      Its confirmation that focus groups show people think GMO producers have something to hide.

      --
      I think you underestimate just how much I just dont care.
    422. Re: Why conceal it? by sumdumass · · Score: 1

      He used the communist party to gain power. Then he burned down the parliament which allowed the enabling act which allowed his true stripes to shine through.

      What the fuck is so difficult about that? The communist in the first red scare who attempted but failed spectacularly at starting a revolution in the US back in 1919 wanted to install a Mussolini type dictatorship in the US to. The fascist and communist of the time blended together often as well as the anarchist. They used each other - perhaps unknowingly but were indistinguishable in the use of frustration among the workers.

    423. Re: Why conceal it? by Mashiki · · Score: 1

      In any case we're no more responsible for their behaviour than moderate righties are responsible for the KKK or Stormfront, both of which have existed for much longer than Jezebel.

      You know what's funny about that statement? The usual suspects on the left are the ones that like to claim it's the people on the right who are responsible for what the KKK or Stormfront do. Don't think I mentioned Jezebel, though I could have named academia in general.

      --
      Om, nomnomnom...
    424. Re:Why conceal it? by Mashiki · · Score: 0

      My guess is that you don't have many female friends, you know, those batshit crazy feminists shivering over on the other side of the office who dare not speak up because of... well, you know... YOU.

      My guess is you don't know much of anything. Those "batshit crazy feminists" don't actually work or last long in the world I work in(you know a world where merit and ability are required). To top it off, those women are generally apathetic to feminists in the west or wholly against feminists in the west because they're batshit insane. Funny that you tried to blame me, for their own level of shitiness though. You must be a really great beta male(or would you prefer numale).

      --
      Om, nomnomnom...
    425. Re:Why conceal it? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      they've been hard at work making vaccines, idiot.

    426. Re:Why conceal it? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Counter question: Would you like to have to label your food to show it contains a "lactobacillus" if it does? Hell no, right? Bacillus, that's some pathogen! That makes people sick, of course that SHOULD be labeled, but who would WANT to, right?

      Well, pretty much anyone selling yogurt, bread, cheese, beer, wine and a few others would have to. Because they are affected by that kind of microorganism and if they weren't, they weren't what they are supposed to be. Because that stuff actually makes yogurt into yogurt.

      It just has a nasty ring. It doesn't sound "good". Not really like something you'd want to read on an ingredients label. The various E-numbers exist for a reason, because they sound a lot more family friendly than the nasty and sometimes outright intimidating chemical compound names that contain various -acids and even -cyanids. Yes, that nasty word that sounds like it's going to kill you (and outside of certain compounds it most likely would).

      It's less that they have something to actually hide. But the whole GMO discussion has been so insanely poisoned with misinformation (from BOTH sides, don't feel left out here Mosanto!) that there simply is no sensible way to put this back into proportion. At this point, GMO food could cure AIDS and it would still be treated like something the cat dragged in.

      Ironically enough, there are brands of yoghurt (at least here in Australia) that marketing has labelled as containing lactobacillus and other pro-biotics. You don't really see it with cheeses though as most people don't know how cheese is made and a subset of those would be quite turned off by the process...

    427. Re:Why conceal it? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Not in an attempt to educate people about the truth of GMO food, but in an attempt to get GMO products killed.

      So they're morons? So what? Negative effects on the environment? Negative effects on people? Yea, you just described how the free market works all the time, even without active misinformation and disinformation campaigns. Hell, advertising in general is more of a disinformation campaign than any attempt to educate people, yet we don't go all hardline on fraud charges on that.

      Somehow GMO activists tend to not mind the changes giving bigger fruit or popular features over the past many thousand years. It is only the ones done in a chemical lab most activists seem concerned about.

      Yep. They're morons and they're doing their part to destroy the planet and its people just like most other activists, be they free market activists, anti-free market activists, anti-drug activists, pro-drug activists, Christians, Jews, Atheists, and even the Agnostics. So...what? Even tyranny to force doesn't fix things because even if there were a single, right answer, you don't know it any more than I do and you sure as fuck clearly can't convince enough people that your tyranny would be any sort of benevolent one.

      Honestly, as stupid as it is, just let the GMO activists have their stupid labeling and be done with it. Feel free to run your own anti-disinformation campaign if you like about GMOs (you already are, apparently, right here). Life goes on.

    428. Re:Why conceal it? by drinkypoo · · Score: 1

      It occurs to me that I haven't ever seen anybody claim this.

      Not only is this claimed in every debate on the subject here, proving that you haven't been paying attention, but it's claimed in basically every debate on this subject everywhere, further proving that you haven't been paying attention. It's not clear why anyone should care what someone thinks when they haven't been paying attention.

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
    429. Re: Why conceal it? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      that's odd, that's not what the wikipedia article says:

      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monsanto_Canada_Inc_v_Schmeiser

      "The case drew worldwide attention and is widely misunderstood to concern what happens when farmers' fields are accidentally contaminated with patented seed. However by the time the case went to trial, all claims had been dropped that related to patented seed in the field that was contaminated in 1997; the court only considered the GM canola in Schmeiser's 1998 fields, which Schmeiser had intentionally concentrated and planted from his 1997 harvest. Regarding his 1998 crop, Schmeiser did not put forward any defence of accidental contamination.[2]"

      so man, if you're gonna try to rewrite history, you need to at least change the wikipedia article accordingly.

    430. Re:Why conceal it? by ttucker · · Score: 1

      There are circumstances where such labeling is actually prohibited. Say you want pork that was not raised with ractopamine, and there were a manufacturer that wanted to label their product as such. According to your theory, no problem at all... in reality though, they have to submit the label for USDA approval, who will likely say, "that label is not allowed because racopamine does not materially affect the pork".

    431. Re:Why conceal it? by Opportunist · · Score: 1

      Reductio ad absurdum? No other argument left in your quiver already, really?

      --
      We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
    432. Re:Why conceal it? by Opportunist · · Score: 1

      What does racism have to do with free market?

      It's ok if you think that withholding certain information should be done. But then please don't go and call it a free market. Because it is not. It is a restricted market.

      I just hate it if people cry and bitch about how we should have more of a "free market" because all those limitations and regulations keep us from having a real "free market", only to see them go out on the ridiculous tangent when I point out how the exact limitations are what would ALLOW us to finally have what comes at least close to a free market economy model.

      Because few of those "free market" criers want a free market. They only want free reign to screw with their customers at lib.

      --
      We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
    433. Re:Why conceal it? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Mentioning that fact will probably reduce its value, however if they never find out then there's no harm at all, and even if they do, there's still no harm, other than maybe it bothers the buyer's religious view, but nonetheless all 50 states in the US have laws preventing civil suits against people who don't mention this (or other immaterial facts, like whether a previous resident had AIDS.)

      Oh my, you must NOT have read the National Association of Realtor's Code of Ethics.

      REALTORS® shall avoid exaggeration, misrepresentation, or concealment of pertinent facts relating to the property or the transaction. REALTORS® shall not,
      however, be obligated to discover latent defects in the property, to advise on matters outside the scope of their real estate license, or to disclose facts which are confidential under the scope of agency or non-agency relationships as defined by state law.

      But Disclosures are a fact of law, and while there are limits, your representation of the facts seem to be in error. There may be states that do not require a disclosure, but California, South Dakota, and Alaska do have some requirements.

      So you're off by 3, if not more. And the code of ethics generally frowns on non-disclosure, for a reason.

      There may be states that legally allow you to keep such information from potential buyers, but that doesn't make it right. It just means that the law is at risk of subversion.

      Personally I dislike the tendency to walk around disclosures and push a caveat emptor approach, especially when it comes to hazards like lead paint and asbestos.

      It's craven and greedy.

    434. Re:Why conceal it? by dywolf · · Score: 1

      I think you really don't know your own history. You need to hit the books.

      Right back at ya.

      A) You've (again) confused totalitarianism, masquerading as communism, for socialism.
      B) You apparently still either have never heard of Europe, Canada, or handful of others
      or C) you believe they are post apocalyptic hellscapes, despite all evidence to the contrary.

      --
      The guy who said the election was rigged won the presidency with the second-most votes.
    435. Re:Why conceal it? by dywolf · · Score: 1

      No, the media is a corporate creature, owned by corporations that lean overwhelmingly to conservatism.

      It's a conservatism that doesn't care about social issues like abortion, gay rights, etc, because they aren't stupid, and can see which way the culture is eventually going to go. but on all else (fiscal, environmental, regulatory, etc) they are solidly conservative, but more importantly, pro-corporate. even MSNBC rarely covers things that matter like campaign financing or lobbying. one of the biggest conservative apologists on TV is on MSNBC.

      15 Things Americans Would Know if There Were a 'Liberal Media'

      --

      Again: peace with honor was a lie.
      The final solution reached at the Paris Peace Talks was we withdraw, and the North waits a few months before reinvading.
      That was our "Peace With Honor", ie, "pretty please don't make us look bad by reinvading right away".
      And it was a defeat. Everyone knew what would happen once we left. We had not defeated the North militarily, and we couldn't because they were being supported by Russia and China, so to truly do so would mean ultimately open conflict with Russia and China, and nobody wanted that. That's how proxy wars work, and they are not winnable in the classic sense unless you move into open conflict with the sponsor nations. They did it to us in Vietnam, and we returned the favor in Afghanistan.

      --

      And as long as we're judging entire political theories based on one country (that wasn't even socialist) actions, then I guess since the People Democratic Republic of Korea is a terrible place with no freedom, democracy must truly suck, eh?

      And again:
      N Vietnam = Communist
      Communist != Socialist

      Moron.

      --
      The guy who said the election was rigged won the presidency with the second-most votes.
    436. Re:Why conceal it? by dywolf · · Score: 1

      exactly.
      the reason companies have fought it is because they don't like change and risk, and this change brings the risk that their profits could be hampered by consumers, who are currently "locked in" customers buying their products regularly, might stop buying their products.

      personally I don't really care about gmo/non-gmo.
      this is a free market situation, and free markets require information
      a sizable segment of the public wants that information, to make better (they think) decisions.
      and there is no compelling interest in NOT providing that info.
      just some corporations that stand to lose don't want to give the public that information.
      so the role of government in this situation is to ignore the companies, and remember that they serve the citizen public.

      companies that stand to lose customers always fight change.
      companies that stand to gain them always support it.
      in the end, they don't really care, they are simply making self interested decisions to protect their bottom line.
      once the status quo has changed, they'll adapt like they always do, and protect their bottom line somewhere else.

      --
      The guy who said the election was rigged won the presidency with the second-most votes.
    437. Re:Why conceal it? by dywolf · · Score: 1

      it doesn't matter whether it impacts health or not.

      there is a large segment of the public that wants the info, because they see it as part of making an informed decision.
      because we use a (largely) free market system.
      and free markets require information.
      there is no compelling public interest in hiding the info.
      just some corporations that fear an impact to their bottom line.

      and it's not a warning.
      it's just a stamp, akin to the Kosher stamp or any of the other product certifications stamped on food packaging.

      --
      The guy who said the election was rigged won the presidency with the second-most votes.
    438. Re:Why conceal it? by dywolf · · Score: 1

      ah yes, the ol throw them on the mercy of the corporations argument.
      (also: you honestly think they wont charge a premium as is if they do have to label ???)

      because consumers should always depend on the goodness of a corporations heart in order to obtain the information they need to make a decision in a free market....

      no.
      food labeling laws are already far too lenient towards corporations ( such as "0g trans fat" actually meaning any value less than 1g, whether its 0.01g, or 0.999g).

      the role of government is to protect the consumer, not the corporation.
      there is zero harm in a free market with requiring information be provided to the consumer.
      the only people you are protecting with your stance is the corporations.

      --
      The guy who said the election was rigged won the presidency with the second-most votes.
    439. Re:Why conceal it? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Do you quiz car dealerships on where and under what conditions the raw materials of their vehicles were mined?

      You may want to inform yourself of the American Automobile Labeling Act.

    440. Re:Why conceal it? by Maxo-Texas · · Score: 1

      Or you can simply require labeling of gmo food so the consumer can make informed choices.

      --
      She was like chocolate when she drank... semi-sweet at first and then increasingly bitter.
    441. Re:Why conceal it? by dywolf · · Score: 1

      and they can choose to not label anything.
      or, without a defined certification, and penalties for falsely claiming it, just cause they say "gmo free" doesn't mean it is.
      which is actually the way it is RIGHT NOW.

      all of which leaves the consumer in the dark.
      without information.

      this isn't freedom.
      this is information asymmetry.
      which only benefits the corporation.

      and given your prolific posting here, can only assume you're being very well paid.

      --
      The guy who said the election was rigged won the presidency with the second-most votes.
    442. Re:Why conceal it? by dywolf · · Score: 1

      and whats wrong with that?

      the interests the government should be concerned with is the public's, since after all, the public IS the government.
      government does not serve corporation (or at least it shouldn't). it serves the public.

      so we get together, we decide there's this piece of information we want on the packaging, so we can decide whether to punish or reward companies based on that information. we do this through our government, and our dollars.

      doesn't matter whether that information is GMO content, worker treatment, national origin, or whatever.
      the only entities that stand to lose from consumers making a decision based on information they want is the corporations, and the government doesn't work for them (again: in an ideal world).

      --
      The guy who said the election was rigged won the presidency with the second-most votes.
    443. Re:Why conceal it? by dywolf · · Score: 1

      "Corporations are people too my friend"

      --
      The guy who said the election was rigged won the presidency with the second-most votes.
    444. Re:Why conceal it? by dywolf · · Score: 1

      basically you are defending corporations who fear losing money because they fear that if the public had the information it wants, it might not buy their products.

      decisions based on assumptions are not informed decisions.
      they are gambles.

      also: the only freedom government should be concerned with in this situation is the freedom of choice of the consumer.
      its not governments job to protect corporations from consumers in the free market.

      --
      The guy who said the election was rigged won the presidency with the second-most votes.
    445. Re:Why conceal it? by dywolf · · Score: 1

      technically true.
      but again, like many topics, at this point we have two separate definitions depending on context, the different being the scientific context, and the general public use context.

      and at this point, when lay people begin talking about GMO, they mean the direct manipulation of genes, not the somewhat uncontrolled manipulation through breeding. we all know it, and going on about its scientific meaning in a layperson context is merely a waste of time.

      --
      The guy who said the election was rigged won the presidency with the second-most votes.
    446. Re: Why conceal it? by dywolf · · Score: 1

      And they can't do that when the conditions they care about are hidden from them

      Most of the conditions of the food is hidden from them. Why single out GMO as one of the required pieces of information ? Why not mandate accurate display of all pesticides and herbicides, or why not the additives that were added to the blend of rubber of the tires of the harvester ?

      We absolutely should do that.
      But I predict that when we do that, you'll be back to shill against providing pesticide information too.

      --
      The guy who said the election was rigged won the presidency with the second-most votes.
    447. Re:Why conceal it? by dywolf · · Score: 1

      its not your job or place to judge the rightness of their decision.

      --
      The guy who said the election was rigged won the presidency with the second-most votes.
    448. Re:Why conceal it? by dywolf · · Score: 1

      and here's the libertarian ironically defending corporations right to hide information and hinder the public making a fully informed free market decision.
      just through the public at the corporations mercy.

      --
      The guy who said the election was rigged won the presidency with the second-most votes.
    449. Re:Why conceal it? by dywolf · · Score: 1

      yes, protecting consumer interests is "tyranny".
      because when comes to rights, the rights of corporations should trump citizens.

      --
      The guy who said the election was rigged won the presidency with the second-most votes.
    450. Re:Why conceal it? by dywolf · · Score: 1

      not really no, there isn't.
      the former is an objective, a goal.
      the latter is how you meet that goal.

      --
      The guy who said the election was rigged won the presidency with the second-most votes.
    451. Re:Why conceal it? by Sloppy · · Score: 1

      By that logic, we should also have labeling to indicate whether or not people with red shirts ever worked on packaging the food. If redshirts working on the food isn't something that needs to be hidden, then why hide it?

      --
      As copyright owner of this comment, I authorize everyone to defeat any technological measure which limits access to it.
    452. Re:Why conceal it? by doconnor · · Score: 1

      It's true, GMO is much more controlled then cross-breeding. The results are more predicable when a well understood gene is added in a well understood way rather then randomly combining millions of genes and hoping to to get the result you want along with thousands of unknown side effects.

      (I wonder if my argument would be more persuasive if I used the one-two punch of swearing and alteration.)

    453. Re: Why conceal it? by Opportunist · · Score: 1

      The NSDAP was a lie. In every single one of its letters.

      It was not national. If it had been, Hitler would have never ceded Southern Tyrolia to Italy. A group claiming to have a national agenda would not simply hand off a part of its claimed nation, not even to an ally, if that part has very strong historic ties to the claimed nation.

      It was not socialist. Hitler was fully dependent on the money from large corporations and companies. He never dreamed of thinking about doing anything as silly as nationalizing any kind of means of production. Actually if anything he tightened the control companies have over their employees.

      It was not "Deutsch" (German). Hitler himself was no German, and many of the upper echelons were not either. Although one has to admit, this is maybe the most "honest" of the five letters, it was actually formed in Germany.

      It was no workers ("Arbeiter") party. Hitler made some token concessions to the worker's movement like making May 1st a holiday, but in general he crushed the unions, he outlawed organizes labor, outlawed strikes and generally tremendously increased the powers companies have over their workforce, up to and including that the threat of losing your job in a "dishonorable" way could lead you to being considered "unwilling to work", which nearly guaranteed a KZ sentence.

      And it was no party. It was a one person dictatorship without any provisions for succession. There was not even any kind of provision for the case that Hitler could for some odd reason not stay in control (which can be seen by the rather haphazard attempts to keep the ball rolling towards the end when communication with Berlin HQ became spotty).

      And I sure hope you do not want to suggest that this five letter joke had anything to do with socialism. Please don't tell me you're that deluded. Has education been replaced that thoroughly by propaganda that you can conflate "socialism" with "anything bad" in the US and it sticks?

      --
      We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
    454. Re:Why conceal it? by Opportunist · · Score: 1

      Wait, wait, what? What do the USA pay for Europe, please tell?

      Is that what they tell you in the US? That you pay for our "socialist paradise"? That's cute. ... In a rather tacky way.

      --
      We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
    455. Re:Why conceal it? by Opportunist · · Score: 1

      Yes, and we can't imagine why you think that's a good thing.

      Then again, when we heard about the outcry about "Obamacare" (which is basically a watered down version of our healthcare system, btw), we could not fathom why anyone would NOT want it.

      You'd start a civil war here if you tried to as much as think about pondering taking it from us.

      Well, if that's how you like it, ok. I guess that way everyone gets what they want, and isn't that what is best for everyone?

      --
      We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
    456. Re:Why conceal it? by Opportunist · · Score: 1

      Sweden, Austria, Germany, Norway, Finland?

      Right wing neocon bastions, I guess?

      --
      We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
    457. Re: Why conceal it? by Bartles · · Score: 1

      Which one of those is socialist?

    458. Re:Why conceal it? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      absolutely spot on Sir...

    459. Re:Why conceal it? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I've never heard of people who prefer not to self-identify as either of those. Socialists of the more moderate kind tend to prefer calling themselves social democrats, but I don't think they generally really object to being called socialists. Liberals (and even those who are actually more conservative than liberal) usually prefer the term 'liberal' to anything that puts them on the right side of the political spectrum more explicitly.

    460. Re: Why conceal it? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      He did not transfer ownership of private enterprises to the state (for the most part), but he did introduce state control of development, production and logistics for anything considered remotely relevant to the war effort or the advancement of his ideologies.

    461. Re:Why conceal it? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      How? I buy my fruit and veg from organics markets? I dont eat dairy or meat. But if do eat meat its grass fed and from local butchers who will even tell me which farms they are from, etc etc. And if you're adventurous enough can go visit if time permits. Although when it comes to meat it's an expensive practice, so I've abandoned meat mostly. And that alone has improved my health at least 2 fold (well i feel). I can exerciser longer, bowl movements are better, and never get sick... If you do veg correctly and minus / minimize the GMO crap you feel great every day. No slow days, no emotional days, every day is a good day.

      My total spend in a shopping centre. Is usually toiletries and the occasional food time. Could be less then $20-30 per week for me and the wife. the Fruit and Veg store is usually about $60 per week.

    462. Re:Why conceal it? by drunken_boxer777 · · Score: 5, Insightful

      You clearly don't work in medicine, healthcare, the pharma industry, or even understand how drugs work. I also suspect that you've had very basic instruction in biology. I get tired of hearing "pharma companies only make drugs that address symptoms so they can keep selling you drugs." I think you are conflating "disease treatment" and "cure". Most drugs are disease treatments, since permanent cures are not possible (at this time) for the vast majority of diseases. But, e.g., there were recent market approvals of 3 actual cures for hepatitis C.

      Drugs are developed to have a mechanism of action that directly addresses underlying disease. When it costs in excess of $1 billion and 10 years to bring a drug to market, you don't waste time on something that you have no idea how it works. Never mind that FDA and every other health regulatory agency in the world frowns upon pharma companies saying "we have no idea how it works, but it does, so just approve it." You make sure you are targeting the molecular and cellular causes of the disease. The drugs drastically reduce the severity of the disease. This manifests in a reduction in symptoms. The average person sees it as "the drugs only treat symptoms, I still have the disease", but what is actually happening is the drug is treating the disease and reducing its severity and a reduction or disappearance of symptoms is really just a side effect of treating the disease.

      TL;DR: "Treatment" and "cure" are not the same, and "cure" is often not possible at this time. So should pharma companies not bother?

    463. Re:Why conceal it? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Only because of liberal media propaganda...

      Propaganda cannot change facts.

      Most Americans that actually get to see the European lifestyle don't consider it prosperous at all. Socialism in general and in it's European version distorts the value of labor and personal effort even in the working class.

      I am not a fan of socialism, but let's be honest: the vast majority of people are far better of in Western Europe than they are in the U.S. The food is better, health care is better, education is better, crime is lower, roads are better, public transport is better, there is some actual culture, the legal system is not so broken, the democracy is less broken, there is more freedom of religion, etc. Sure, some things are better in the U.S., but overall, life is simply better in Europe.

      Americans are free to make irresponsible choices that aren't available to Europeans.

      Such as? The only thing I can think of is gun ownership. Otherwise, Europeans enjoy more freedom than Americans.

    464. Re: Why conceal it? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      All European countries have some degree of socialism, liberalism and conservatism in proportions that vary more with time than with region, on average. What sets the (troubled) Southern European countries apart from the (economically succesful) Northern European countries (including e.g. Austria) is:
      - A more organised economy and better organised state and regional governments with less bureaucracy (North)
      - Moderate spending (North) versus US-style deficit spending (South)
      - Relatively reasonable and constructive unions and low union membership (North) versus very powerful unions with that are strongly opposed to reforms and austerity (South)
      - Corruption in the North is negligiable, but in the South it can be substantial in some regions
      To a lesser degree, the Northern countries also tend to export more high-valued goods, whereas the southern countries tend to be more dependent on agriculture and fisheries. Also, in Southern countries, employees tend to work longer hours with a less strict separation between work and private life, which paradoxically reduces overall productivity in the long run.

      The Southern countries were closing the gap for some time, but they devaluated their currencies from time to time to keep their trade balance acceptable in a (locally) politically acceptable way. Joining the Euro has made this impossible and politicians have not been able (or even willing in most cases) to make the economies structurally more competetive with the North (and the rest of the world). This led to capital consistently leaving the country and public spending that the economy could not bear. Throw in global financial crisis and some banks with dodgy balance sheets and you get the situation of the past years. Things are improving slowly, but only because politicians and voters have no other choice than to do some of the things they should have been doing for decades in the first place.

      The South has many problems and some of them are due to socialism. However, there is not strictly speaking more socialism in the South than there is in the North. It just works somewhat differently, since the cultures differ.

    465. Re:Why conceal it? by TechyImmigrant · · Score: 1

      >Most of the packages you find in the pet section of the supermarket that have pictures of cats on them don't actually contain cat meat.

      Most of the packages you find in the pet section of the supermarket that have pictures of cats on them don't actually contain meat.

      There, fixed that for you.

      --
      I should use this sig to advertise my book ISBN-13 : 978-1501515132.
    466. Re: Why conceal it? by phocion · · Score: 1

      This should be modded up higher than 5 (or everything else should be knocked down to 4 or less). Best response in the thread. The only argument I can see for GMO labeling is that I'd buy it over any non-GMO alternative. I know that I'm the exception in this. Hopefully companies will hold out and not label. When the people in VT can't get the food they want they'll toss the labeling requirements out.

      --
      Smile, it makes people wonder what you're up to.
    467. Re:Why conceal it? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Are you a retard? Food is something you ingest.Why don't you stick that cell phone up your ass every night? See how long before you get ass cancer.It's fuckwits like you CORPORATE COCK SUCKERS who make the world a rotten place.

      I want to KNOW what is in my food...you big pharma cock sucker.

    468. Re:Why conceal it? by david_thornley · · Score: 1

      Thank you for such an excellent illustration of GP's point.

      --
      "When you have eliminated the unacceptable, whatever is left, however improbable, must be the truthiness" - Holmes
    469. Re:Why conceal it? by david_thornley · · Score: 1

      The party started with nationalist and socialist wings. When Hitler attained power, he eliminated the socialist wing quite bloodily, and got very chummy with the big capitalists. Naturally, he didn't admit to having dropped everything socialist about the party, because that would have meant changing the propaganda front (there's a full description in Mein Kampf), and because that would have alienated people. Much better to call the party socialist and practice fairly extreme capitalism.

      A lot of people get confused because they are taking Hitler's words at face value.

      --
      "When you have eliminated the unacceptable, whatever is left, however improbable, must be the truthiness" - Holmes
    470. Re:Why conceal it? by david_thornley · · Score: 1

      The other problem with requiring labels to cover everything is that the label gets overly unwieldy.

      What I want is a "sulfites" label. I have a friend who's seriously allergic, and so I wind up reading label after label looking for certain code phrases. (Some of them may not actually indicate sulfites, but I'd rather be too picky than have her rushed from my dinner table to the emergency room.) There are other reasonably common allergies that can seriously affect people's health, and I'd like to see those labeled.

      So, I get really frustrated by people who want mandatory labeling for stuff that doesn't really matter, because they're scared of it.

      --
      "When you have eliminated the unacceptable, whatever is left, however improbable, must be the truthiness" - Holmes
    471. Re: Why conceal it? by david_thornley · · Score: 1

      How about allergens? Some are required to be listed, some not. When the conditions they care about can land them in the emergency room, shouldn't we be more worried about labeling them than things like GMO that aren't harmful? (They test the heck out of GMO strains, guys.)

      --
      "When you have eliminated the unacceptable, whatever is left, however improbable, must be the truthiness" - Holmes
    472. Re:Why conceal it? by david_thornley · · Score: 1

      So, I'm in the grocery store, trying to figure out if this product or that product is safer for my guests. I scan the labels and find that the grocery store has horrible cell reception and no WiFi. Now what do I do? Or if I leave my phone at home? I like having something I can get information from immediately without electronic devices that can fail.

      --
      "When you have eliminated the unacceptable, whatever is left, however improbable, must be the truthiness" - Holmes
    473. Re:Why conceal it? by david_thornley · · Score: 1

      Would you care to cite one of those suits? The one I'm most familiar with involved a farmer who was starting with blow-over seeds and trying to preserve the Roundup-ready property. I've not heard of a single suit Monsanto filed against a farmer who wasn't trying to take advantage of Monsanto's GMO seeds. If you know of one, please post, because I'd love a further reason to hate Monsanto.

      --
      "When you have eliminated the unacceptable, whatever is left, however improbable, must be the truthiness" - Holmes
    474. Re:Why conceal it? by CauseBy · · Score: 1

      Before a thousand people answer you, are you honestly too fucking stupid to answer that yourself, or are you just trying to troll?

    475. Re:Why conceal it? by david_thornley · · Score: 1

      The little guy has a choice between buying Monsanto seed and not buying Monsanto seed. If the little guy doesn't have enough up-front capital, that's a separate problem. If the little guy makes more money buying Monsanto, cool. If the little guy makes more money not buying Monsanto, cool. I don't really care. If the little guy needs to buy Monsanto in order to compete with everyone else buying Monsanto, that's the way it is.

      There's plenty of unfair practices used to squeeze the small farmer, but GMO seed isn't one of them.

      --
      "When you have eliminated the unacceptable, whatever is left, however improbable, must be the truthiness" - Holmes
    476. Re:Why conceal it? by david_thornley · · Score: 1

      The one from the supermarket has probably been on a long trip from where it was grown, and tomatoes don't seem to keep their flavor well.

      If I want to buy a tomato I can taste, I can go to a farmers' market (in season), or I can buy a particular brand at the local supermarket. I don't know that the tomatoes are themselves any different, but the handling is different and the time from vine to mouth is much smaller.

      --
      "When you have eliminated the unacceptable, whatever is left, however improbable, must be the truthiness" - Holmes
    477. Re:Why conceal it? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      GMO is light year behind CRISPR. No comparison.

    478. Re:Why conceal it? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It's not the biology in question, it's the business model.

    479. Re:Why conceal it? by Coren22 · · Score: 1

      Real glass? What a luxury!

      --
      APK likes to ask for responses to the same things over and over. Maybe he just likes the responses?
    480. Re:Why conceal it? by Aighearach · · Score: 1

      Nope, travel doesn't take the flavor out of a tomato.

      You can grow the same strains in the garden if you want to test if there is a flavor difference, or if just picking early has the same effect.

      You're speculating, and you're wrong. If you think you can buy an equal tomato at the supermarket, it tells me you don't know. You haven't done the comparison.

    481. Re:Why conceal it? by Applehu+Akbar · · Score: 1

      For the hippie mother market there are already food processors who label for No GMO. I'm sure they assume that anything not labeled this way was made using the dreaded process.

    482. Re:Why conceal it? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      And as soon as you can show that GMO food affects consumer health, like the caloric content does, then we should have a warning for GMO as well.

      No one said this label was a warning label. Food today lists water in the indigence. Is that a warning or just honest?

    483. Re:Why conceal it? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You work "in plant science" that is nice. It has nothing to do with politics, or public policy....And I really doubt you're a "scientist." That is horse shit, or you'd know how irrelevant that is to what information humans want on labels.

      That's hilarious. It really sounds like you're arguing that the scientific understanding of GMOs should not play a crucial role in setting public policy. Will you be arguing in a post for some later article that the scientific understanding of AGW should play no role in public policy? I'm guessing "no".

      - T

    484. Re:Why conceal it? by MiSaunaSnob · · Score: 1

      So you are on board for tyranny of the masses, you know because its what the majority wants and its the right thing for democracy and the free market?

    485. Re:Why conceal it? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The *increase* in foodstuffs I have become allergic to in the last 20 years is scary. I've attributed it to either pesticide use or GMOs. Pesticide use has gone down, while GMO has gone up. Maybe my gut is getting more sensitive, you say? I can eat most anything when traveling overseas..
      Look into the trends of IBS in America, which is often a sign of low-level food intolerance.

    486. Re: Why conceal it? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Why show it? Why care? Link me the scientific study that proves, using facts, that gmo s are bad. We have been eating gmo s long before it was sensationalized in the media to no ill effect. Gmo s allow increased quality and production. They are the future.

    487. Re:Why conceal it? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Keegan's Second World War gives a pretty thorough overview of Hitler's rise to power and subsequent economic policies, not because he has any political story to tell, but because he's a military historian and such things had a rather large impact on the war. If you don't like that one, you can find others. There will be none which suggest that either aggressor was at war to bring socialism/communism to Europe.

      Different scholars have viewed Hitler as being on the left and on the right. It's certainly not unanimous. A lot of the difficulty comes from the fact that we don't have good, unambiguous definitions of what it means to be right and left. Certainly some of Hitler's policies were more to the left than others, especially early policies. For that matter, some of his policies were more to the left than policies favored by some current 'Labour' parties, viewed by most as being on the 'left'.

      However, that's a fairly minor point. You're left a key aggressor when you say 'either aggressor'.

      Given that the Soviets invaded Finland, Poland, and a bunch of other states during the early years of the war, I would certainly call the Soviet Union one of the aggressors in WW2. Further, there's a huge amount of circumstantial evidence that Stalin intended to invade Germany, either the same year the Germans invaded (less likely, but possible), or the year after (much more likely). One of the reasons the initial German attack was such a disaster was that large portions of the Red Army were positioned very far forward, as was the Red Air Force, in positions that were weak defensively but well suited for use as jumping off points for an offense. So many planes had been moved forward that the Soviet airstrips were massively overcrowded, and hence extremely vulnerable to German air. Worse, large numbers of tanks were in transit via train to the border area, and hence extremely vulnerable as well. There's not much doubt this particular aggressor was planning to bring socialism/communism to Europe, as their actions showed after the war. They'd even tried to do this after WWI (before WWII), but were repelled by the Poles.

      Some, of course, will claim that the Soviets weren't really socialist, but the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics certainly implemented the prime tenant of socialism, namely the workers controlling the means of production. It's also worth noting that accounts of the war by former Soviet soldiers (published after the Cold War ended) give the impression of pretty strong support for the state, even after all these years. That means that, contrary to some posts on this forum, Socialism in the Soviet Union was a popular movement (at least among Russians, some of the other nationalities in the Soviet Union weren't too keen on it, since they didn't want to be a part of anything Russian).

      Claims that the Soviets were not socialist seem to largely be a matter of people trying to distance themselves from the (many) economic failures of socialist states (in Asia, Africa, and South America) during the 20th century. A lot of people today identify themselves as socialists without actually understanding the meaning of word. A lot of people who identify themselves as socialist think that means they support having good welfare systems, but welfare systems predate the coining of the word socialism (or, for that matter, capitalism, a term created by Marx), by many centuries. Ironically, since welfare systems are traditional, that means that true Conservatives actually support the idea (though they differ with the Liberals on many of the details). Socialism, on the other hand, is primarily a matter of who controls the means of production.

    488. Re:Why conceal it? by mattack2 · · Score: 1

      The food industry is even worse. When I live in a totalitarian communist country a chocolate had cocoa butter, milk and sugar. Now that Nestle took over the factory, it has palm oil, high fructose corn syrup, lactose, milk powder and dozens of color and taste enhancers. How is this better?

      So pay a lot more for a higher end chocolate bar that has the few ingredients you want in it.

      The rest of us will (usually) gladly take the cheaper bar.

    489. Re:Why conceal it? by mattack2 · · Score: 1

      Then again, when we heard about the outcry about "Obamacare" (which is basically a watered down version of our healthcare system, btw), we could not fathom why anyone would NOT want it.

      I would NOT want it because I want people to be responsible for themselves, NOT me paying for your health care (nor vice versa). Why should I pay for someone who got lung cancer because they smoke?

    490. Re: Why conceal it? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Or it's a confirmation of the fact other people are grossly ignorant of science.

    491. Re:Why conceal it? by execthis · · Score: 1

      Wow, despite your fascist, rancid view on life, people have a right to not eat GMOs because they don't want to eat GMOs.

      You can poop your pants and have conniption fits all day about it. I'm sure you will. But people have that right and they have that choice.

    492. Re:Why conceal it? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I'm all in favor of retards spending too much on food that is less nutritious.

      I'll eat the GMO food that's been sprayed with immunizations via chemtrail planes.

    493. Re:Why conceal it? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Right. That's why Bush got treated so gently by the mainstream press.

    494. Re: Why conceal it? by Bartles · · Score: 1

      You are confusing social programs with socialism.

    495. Re: Why conceal it? by Bartles · · Score: 1

      This was misposted, ignore it.

    496. Re:Why conceal it? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      And it's a dick move to try to talk, trick, or coerce people into eating something they don't want to eat.

      That's quite an absolutist position you have there.
      I think we should stop people eating "nasty greens" that they don't like, and encourage them to eat more fries and ketchup.
      Like maybe with advertising?
      Is that not included in your "talk, trick or coerce people" scenario?

      How about encouraging people to drink water instead of soda?
      Or eat less fat? Or less sugar?

      The marketing industry is all full of "dick moves", but you're not railing against them?

    497. Re:Why conceal it? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      To fix nitrogen into the soil, just grow cannabis instead of the fallow period.

    498. Re:Why conceal it? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You are confusing socialism with communism.

    499. Re:Why conceal it? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      As much as your comment is infuriating it has a point. Id say that there should be a law that states that if you choose not to label your ingredients, nutritional value, etc, etc especially GMO or no GMO. Then the shelf the food is placed on should be marked in red with black bold print like those warning signs you have at construction sites.

      "Warning! these foods have the potential to KILL YOU. Since we have no indication what is in the box your about to purchase therefore we can not verify directly that is in fact food."

      Or is that not free enough? Maybe we she get even more free? FREEEDOM!!!!

    500. Re:Why conceal it? by Teun · · Score: 1

      Short term profits, disregard for those after us.

      --
      "The likes of Facebook and WhatsApp are free to those whose privacy is of zero value."
    501. Re:Why conceal it? by Teun · · Score: 1

      That's why informed politicians should stop or at least control GMO.

      --
      "The likes of Facebook and WhatsApp are free to those whose privacy is of zero value."
    502. Re:Why conceal it? by DNS-and-BIND · · Score: 1

      So, the message isn't that the media isn't leftist, it's that it's not leftist enough.

      I note that you conveniently leave out the fact that the Democrat-controlled Congress deliberately cut the South Vietnamese off from aid and ensured their downfall. Why? Why did millions of people have to suffer? Well so they could make sure Nixon didn't have a positive legacy. Seriously. What a bunch of pricks.

      --
      Shutting down free speech with violence isn't fighting fascism. It IS fascism!
    503. Re: Why conceal it? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Claims to be a learned expert; Doesn't know the difference between communism and socialism. Probably thinks Hitler was a socialist.

    504. Re: Why conceal it? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      BUT COMMUNISM

    505. Re: Why conceal it? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Well they don't work very hard at it. Idiot. Vaccines and antibiotics are not very profitable, and they receive much less attention than they need.

      http://www.ncpa.org/pub/ba655/

      http://www.wsj.com/articles/SB113141787830190837

    506. Re:Why conceal it? by Smidge204 · · Score: 1

      In so far as there are no founding principles or higher laws (In the case of the US, the Constitution and Federal law) then that's the risk inherent in a democratic system.

      And, like it or not, it is exactly how this country has been run since its inception. "Tyranny of the masses" is already the status quot, and it takes quite a lot of effort to establish a higher (read: Federal) law to overcome it.

      Of course, you have unwittingly equated requiring manufacturers to inform consumers what's in their products to *tyranny* ... so I'm not sure how serious your point deserves to be considered.
      =Smidge=

    507. Re:Why conceal it? by micahraleigh · · Score: 1

      I read somewhere once that bananas have a radioisotope of potassium because of nuclear activities from humans.

      I took that to mean banana trees suck up potassium from their environment and some of it happens to be a radioisotope with a long half life.

    508. Re:Why conceal it? by rtb61 · · Score: 1

      In the internet age, not only should there be a label but they should be a direct link to a website with full details of product, every single ingredient, the production process (if it's boiled in sulphuric acid I want to know and I want to avoid it) and packaging details (if the packing gives on oestrogen emulators I want to know and avoid it). There is no excuse for providing full details of all food products.

      --
      Chaos - everything, everywhere, everywhen
    509. Re: Why conceal it? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Not so. Google "Carnation Revolution" please and educate yourself. Every day is a good day to learn something new...

    510. Re:Why conceal it? by Wrath0fb0b · · Score: 1

      I don't disagree with anything you have said. In fact, I didn't say anything on the topic of "good" or "bad" or "used responsibly". I made a few claims:

      (1) The weight of scientific evidence is that GMOs currently on the market are not harmful to human health. This view is endorsed by all the scientific agencies and groups listed in the GP link.

      (2) The nutritional labels on food should describe all things relevant to human health such as calories, nutrients and ingredients.

      (3) As a result of the above, GMO foods should not be required to be labeled at this point. If the facts described in (1) change, then so too does this conclusion.

    511. Re:Why conceal it? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Your reply makes me think that food is sold under the assumption that the organisms used as ingredients have never undergone genetic modifications...

      ... so at least in Vermont I can now finally be sure that that the DNA of the organisms that go into MY food is exactly the same as when God created said organisms 6000 years ago!

      #wecanwin #nomoremutants #greenpeacego

    512. Re:Why conceal it? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Well then I'm just glad radiation doesn't cause any genetic modifications or else ALL food should be labeled as containing GMOs./s

    513. Re:Why conceal it? by aralin · · Score: 1

      Profit gives you incentives that are profit oriented.

      --
      If programs would be read like poetry, most programmers would be Vogons.
    514. Re:Why conceal it? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Dictatorship, not of proletariat.

      Actual dictatorship of proletariat is basically not allowing felons to vote, so people who want other to work for them without working themselves won't be allowed to interfer in the country's politics.

      It's only the extreme cruelty of Russian Civil War (caused by the support of nearly all Western nations to mass-murderes in order to suppress the Soviet Revolution) that turned a reasonable system like dictatorship of proletariat into dictatorship of the Party then into dictatorship of Stalin.

    515. Re:Why conceal it? by sumdumass · · Score: 1

      Freedom doesn't mean you are allowed to do whatever they give you permission to do.

      If people wanted GMO free foods, there would be a market demand for them and labels indicating the absence would be on package and you still can make your choices. So either you are misled and think more people want it than actually do or are under the wrong impression of what freedom actually is.

      Remember the next time the government does something you do not like (spying on citizens for instance), you justified the bigger government and as it is well known - the bigger the government the smaller the people. It's a trade that screws us in the end

    516. Re:Why conceal it? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "There is no excuse for providing full details of all food products."

      And yet, your post implies that you DO want full details of all food products. Did you mean to say "there is no excuse for NOT providing ..."?

      Words are important. Make sure you use all the ones you meant to use.

    517. Re:Why conceal it? by Luckyo · · Score: 1

      Oh it was, according to your esteemed colleague herr Goebbels.

    518. Re:Why conceal it? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Sorry to post as an AC, I am nobodie, but didn't think I was gonna log in, just lurk. Buuuut...
      Having lived in Europe, as a European, after being born in the US and raised by Americans as an American let me help things along a bit and try to facilitate some understanding.
      In America we do allow people to make crazy mistakes and to be crazy successes. There are obvious examples that I won't use to poison the discourse, but Steve Jobs would be a good example as well. This is at a very great cost though. Less than 5% of the "entrepreneurs" who start their own business are in business after 5 years. I should know, it happened to me. Bankruptcy, loss of all assets, etc.
      My wife, in Holland, also started her own business some years before I met her and a few years after I went bankrupt. Before she could start the business though, because the government understood how hard it is to create a successful business she had to take a course in business and how to start a business and how to know when to quit before you lose your shirt. So, when her business wasn't working out she closed it and saved herself the kind of abject failure, food stamps and government handout that I needed because I got in too deep before pulling out.

      Hopefully you see the point: in Holland the government made a small investment in education focused on someone who wants to start a small business. How to succeed in business 101 we could call it. In america you get a meeting with a banker who gives you money at interest and a "here's your hat, where's your hurry?" and out the door you go. Do people go out of business in Holland? Yes, of course. Do they fail catastrophically? Not as often as in the US and you don't see the foolishness of trying to hold on when you can realistically close a business and try another idea or approach. We don't get that choice because we wait too long.

      How do I know this? After my bankruptcy I went to community college and studied accounting and book-keeping for three years. I wanted to understand that failure. Now I do, and don't plan on going into business again.

      One final note about the wonderful (sarcasm drips frothily here) American system that we all treasure. What drove me into bankruptcy was not the invisible hand, or even "good old American capitalism". No, it was a long and carefully planned campaign against a superior product by two giant American corporation: Owens-Corning and Johns Mansville. They not only created dummy companies (or used existing front companies like "Borden's") to sell product, set up franchise arrangements with clueless and untrained franchisees and then turned them loose on American consumers knowing they would create a consumer nightmare. I was in court with people suffering from the results within six months. Even though I diversified my companies because I saw the end coming, I wasn't fast enough. The big boys steam-rollered 10,000 small contractors and put us all in bankruptcy. We were just a blip in a larger recession (1982) and most of us came back a few years later to try again. I knew too much and just didn't have the heart to fight that kind of dirt.

      So, our system has some things that seem rather broken to me. I should note also, that while I do not fear government, especially a socialist government, I do fear a government that is run by the corporations , for the corporations. And I claim that this is the result of the Reagan and Bush years. You and the media have been duped into believing that all government must function like this, but that is a big , fat lie. It does not have to be so. It is the intervention of the corporations that has created our dysfunctional government.

    519. Re:Why conceal it? by coinreturn · · Score: 1

      Then again, when we heard about the outcry about "Obamacare" (which is basically a watered down version of our healthcare system, btw), we could not fathom why anyone would NOT want it.

      Because it was backed by a black man. Republicans had no problem with Romneycare (Massachusetts version of Obamacare) and Obamacare has its roots in past Republican proposals. Liberals and progressives wanted single-payer, aka Medicare for all.

    520. Re:Why conceal it? by coinreturn · · Score: 1

      Americans are free to make irresponsible choices that aren't available to Europeans.

      Such as? The only thing I can think of is gun ownership. Otherwise, Europeans enjoy more freedom than Americans.

      Such as the freedom to delude themselves into thinking they have it better. It happens every damn day.

  2. Corn and other grains by the_Bionic_lemming · · Score: 0, Troll

    We've been genetically modifying food for centuries.

    anything that has corn, wheat, barley etc etc has been genetically modified by ancient ancestors.

    --
    _ _ _ Go for the eyes Boo! GO FOR THE EYES!
    1. Re:Corn and other grains by LaughingRadish · · Score: 1, Informative

      Selective breeding is a lot more predictable than directly twiddling genes. There are a lot of unforeseen side-effects.

    2. Re:Corn and other grains by mishehu · · Score: 1

      Such as?

    3. Re:Corn and other grains by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Such as corn with teeth that bite back!

    4. Re:Corn and other grains by mishehu · · Score: 1

      At least it's not vagina dentata....

    5. Re:Corn and other grains by Barny · · Score: 1

      Goes further than that. Domesticated animals? Pretty much all fruit (especially bananas)? We have, as a species, genetically modified nearly everything we consume to make it more appealing or effective. Probably should just put the warning label at the front of the store.

      --
      ...
      /me sighs
    6. Re: Corn and other grains by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Centuries? Wrong. A few decades sure. Before that was selective breeding.

    7. Re:Corn and other grains by My+Name+Is+Neo · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Selective breeding is a lot more predictable than directly twiddling genes. There are a lot of unforeseen side-effects.

      [citation needed]

      Bill Nye would disagree with you. Specifically, here is a quote from when he changed his mind about GMO's:

      "The thing is, genetically modified food has no effect on us. That is to say, there is no difference between it and organically raised food. This is scientifically provable. It’s certainly provable to my satisfaction, and that’s the most straightforward thing about it, to see if it’s still nutritious and see if it has any allergic effect, and it absolutely does not. In fact, in general, all of these foods are more nutritious."

      Source: http://ecowatch.com/2015/07/14...

      There's further details in his recent book Undeniable about why there aren't "unforeseen side-effects" from GMO foods. I think anyone with doubts or curiosity about the subject (and evolution in general) should read it.

      --
      Snarf This.
    8. Re:Corn and other grains by Maow · · Score: 1

      Selective breeding is a lot more predictable than directly twiddling genes. There are a lot of unforeseen side-effects.

      Such as?

      As we've seen with antibiotic resistance, expect Round-Up resistant weeds for starters.

      In fact, it seems to already be a problem, with over 61 million acres as of 2012.

      Health-wise, GMOs seem to have proven themselves pretty safe - not the worse thing in our diets.

      But not sure what most of them are really for. Leaving out Golden Rice, which is awesome, there isn't a food shortage that GMOs are trying to solve, there's a huge amount of wasted food:

      The Food and Agriculture Organization (FAO) of the United Nations, which keeps tabs on what's grown and eaten around the globe, estimates that one-third of food produced for human consumption worldwide is annually lost or wasted along the chain that stretches from farms to processing plants, marketplaces, retailers, food-service operations, and our collective kitchens.

      At 2.8 trillion pounds, that's enough sustenance to feed three billion people. In the United States, the waste is even more egregious: More than 30 percent of our food, valued at $162 billion annually, isn't eaten. Pile all that food on a football field and the layers would form a putrefying casserole miles high.

      Anyway, for the most part I don't see the rush to GMOs, and I'm definitely in favour of labelling and can't understand anyone being against it other than for knee-jerk reasons. Let the market decide indeed.

    9. Re:Corn and other grains by phantomfive · · Score: 1

      Selective breeding is a lot more predictable than directly twiddling genes.

      Not really. Selective breeding can end up with some really bizarre things, and has given us poisonous potatoes.
      GMOs get a lot more testing before they make it to your dinner table, as well.

      --
      "First they came for the slanderers and i said nothing."
    10. Re:Corn and other grains by DNS-and-BIND · · Score: 1

      Scientist changes his mind on a subject.

      Scientist, without any sense of irony, writes book titled Undeniable, thus pulling up the stairs behind him. /facepalm

      --
      Shutting down free speech with violence isn't fighting fascism. It IS fascism!
    11. Re:Corn and other grains by 93+Escort+Wagon · · Score: 1

      I like Bill Nye... but he's an engineer, not a scientist.

      --
      #DeleteChrome
    12. Re:Corn and other grains by ChromeAeonium · · Score: 1

      As we've seen with antibiotic resistance, expect Round-Up resistant weeds for starters.

      That's a problem with any herbicide system though, to make a long story short. Here's an article from 1992, several years before the release of Round-Up Ready crops, discussing the issue of resistant weeds. You very well can't blame GE crops for something that happens to non-GE crops. Problem is, no one talks about it when it happens to other herbicides, because then it's not a 'controversy,' it's just a problem for farmers, and no one pays attention to that. I hope you can see my problem with the typical anti-GMO talking points you've likely heard; even though some of them almost sound logical, that's only without critical context, which the anti-GMO groups never give, leading to much public misunderstanding.

    13. Re:Corn and other grains by Your.Master · · Score: 1

      It's been my consistent position that you can effectively achieve the same results by labelling things as GMO-free, if that's what consumers actually want.

      No law has to be passed to cause that to happen (assuming reasonable truth-in-labelling laws exist, anyway), and if consumers love things being GMO-free then they will look for the label. This has happened successfully with, for example, Kosher labels.

      This way it's voluntary and nobody has to get in a twist.

    14. Re:Corn and other grains by mishehu · · Score: 1

      Neil deGrasse Tyson basically says the same thing: There's not a food at our supermarket that we haven't been performing some form of GMO - some for thousands of years even. Unless they can find for me a truly wild beef cow, then all beef products need to be labeled at GMO... There's multiple copies of NdGT's comments, but here's one: https://www.youtube.com/watch?...

    15. Re:Corn and other grains by mishehu · · Score: 1

      John Oliver had an episode of Last Week Tonight about food waste. According to what his team determined, the vast majority of that waste (at least for produce) was for purely aesthetic reasons - whether or not the food was physically attractive.

    16. Re:Corn and other grains by imidan · · Score: 1

      This is a problem not just with GMOs, but also with selective breeding:
      http://www.nytimes.com/2012/06...

      That is to say, one of the problems with genetic modification is that we can do it a lot faster than selective breeding and find ourselves in bad places with our food much more quickly. It's not typically irreversible, but it is a concern.

    17. Re:Corn and other grains by DNS-and-BIND · · Score: 1

      He bills himself as "the science guy"...uh....

      --
      Shutting down free speech with violence isn't fighting fascism. It IS fascism!
    18. Re:Corn and other grains by Jack9 · · Score: 1

      Difference between Domestication and Taming? (e.g. why we don't domesticate zebra?)

      https://www.youtube.com/watch?...

      --

      Often wrong but never in doubt.
      I am Jack9.
      Everyone knows me.
    19. Re:Corn and other grains by Aighearach · · Score: 3, Informative

      Yes, you can blame the Round-Up Ready crops, because that isn't applied to non-GMO crops. It would kill them. On the GMO crop, they spray it over the whole field. You really can't separate the problem, because that is the only time that it is being frequently applied broadly like that.

      For example, they use it on Giant Knotweed around here, but they have to use a hand sprayer and spray individual plants.

      And there currently is an epidemic of resistant weeds in GMO fields. Maybe you don't read enough ag news to know about it? And the GMO farmers are getting really whiny, because they thought science cured weeds. LOL And they are really resistant to the idea of going back to old weed control methods. "The sky is falling, the sky is falling." The sky isn't falling, but if the weeds come back they should switch back to normal seed because the GMO plants are less robust. (the resistance has a metabolic cost)

    20. Re:Corn and other grains by Ambassador+Kosh · · Score: 2

      This statement is completely wrong and that is what makes me sad about this whole debate. People make decisions that they are not qualified to make.

      Selective breeding is MUCH less predictable than direct gene editing. With gene editing I know exactly what I am inserting and where it goes and like a computer program I also know what it does.

      With selective breeding you are selecting for visible traits and not for the DNA. Selective breeding of tomatoes to make them solid red also dramatically cut their nutrition content. The tomatoes that where red with a little green on the top where healthier for us but selective breeding eliminated healthy parts along with selecting for solid red.

      The same has been done with corn and many other foods we eat.

      If you want to make a plant more drought resistant then directly add the gene for it, Don't try to selectively breed for it since you will get a lot of other changes to the plant also.

      --
      Computer modeling for biotech drug manufacturing is HARD! :)
    21. Re:Corn and other grains by Maow · · Score: 1

      It's been my consistent position that you can effectively achieve the same results by labelling things as GMO-free, if that's what consumers actually want.

      No law has to be passed to cause that to happen (assuming reasonable truth-in-labelling laws exist, anyway),

      Current laws regarding ingredient lists ought to cover GMO products, so I'd agree no new laws should be needed.

      But the lack of such labelling indicates the truth-in-labelling laws might not be stringent enough. Hence the "this product does not contain GMOs.

      This way it's voluntary and nobody has to get in a twist.

      The "No GMOs" can still be voluntary, but like multi-lingual labels, ingredient listings, and nutritional info, a GMO indication isn't the burden industry would portray it to be.

    22. Re:Corn and other grains by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Genetic engineering and selective breeding are two completely different things. You can genetically engineer humans to glow under UV lights, good luck trying to breed that into the species.

      What I'd like to see, but we'd never get because packaging sizes are too small, is to know why the items were engineered. "GMO" by itself is mostly useless. I want to know if the items were designed for faster growth, more sugar, less browning, secrete insecticides, grow in colder climates. etc... I don't have anything against the tech, but I don't trust the companies behind it to full examine how their products will effect the world. These products get approved with little to no environmental research. Sure the good companies you hear about in the news do the research, but there are far more out there that don't. Almost all GMO changes are for profit, not health. Our apples keep getting closer and closer to candy and those nice looking strawberries have much fewer nutrients.

      A similar (though not GMO yet) example, trying to extend the growing regions of specific types of grass. Around here everyone buys the same type of grass and it sucks. It's hard to keep it alive and people pour tons of water into their lawns and lots of time and money ripping up anything else that tries to grow. Sometimes the rain fall is low and lots of grass dies or people pump even more water onto it. Once in a while we get a little drought and most of the lawns die. Water gets rationed and much of that water is spent on lawns, If people didn't need to water their lawns we'd never have water shortages in our area. And they don't, because the local grass grows perfectly fine. It doesn't die during the drought and never needs watering. It's almost exactly the same as the corporate approved grass expect it works better and looks the tiniest bit different. If you compare the gasses side by side you can tell the difference, if you look at a single type by itself, you can't determine which one it is. But nooo, everyone has to spend a lot of time, money, and effort ripping the local maintenance-free grass out and replacing it so that our lawns will look the same if you decide to instantly teleport to another state across the country and look at their lawns. GMOs are making this problem worse, not better.

      I would donate to support non-profit GMO research, but I'm not going to support privately developed, corporate GMO products.

    23. Re:Corn and other grains by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Problem is, no one talks about it when it happens to other herbicides, because then it's not a 'controversy,'

      Actually, some people do talk about it. If the media hasn't been paying attention, put that on the media, not the people who are trying to draw attention to what they see as an issue.

      Similarly with how some people think monoculture is a problem with non-GMO foods. And they talk about it. There are non-profit groups in my country dedicated to preserving heirloom strains. This isn't specifically because of GMO but because of monoculture in general. But if the media only picked it up as an issue after GMO crops became common, again, don't put that on the people trying to raise awareness.

      The scale of these issues, with or without GMO crops, is bigger today than it was before GMO crops became common. Some of these issues would've gained more attention even if there were no GMO crops because they are more of an issue today than they were in the past: our population is higher so demand for food is higher; we'll have less arable land to grow food; and as our climate changes, we'll have more variability in the factors that affect food production.

    24. Re:Corn and other grains by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Enough with this idiotic fucking bullshit ... the difference between selective breeding and jamming in genes which didn't naturally occur is a fucking vast amount.

      Plants that glow and pigs whose milk produces spider silk is not the same fucking thing.

      The problem is the idiot lawmakers on the payroll of asshole corporations have been paid off to pretend like it is so that morons like you can say this stupid fucking shit every time this topic comes up.

      GMO and selective breeding haven't got a fucking thing to do with one another you idiot.

      People have a right to know what they're really eating ... and the difference between selective breeding of existing plants and some science experiment which is presumed safe until proven otherwise is not the same fucking thing.

      You can eat all the fucking GMO crap you want, but let the rest of us make an informed choice instead of listening to idiots like you.

    25. Re:Corn and other grains by tomhath · · Score: 1

      because that isn't applied to non-GMO crops

      Nonsense. Spraying the ground before planting a non-glyphosate resistant crop is common practice to kill weeds and/or a cover crop. Read up on "no-till" agriculture.

      It's also common with some crops to spray at the end of the season to make harvesting easier; for example, potatoes are often sprayed a couple of weeks before being dug to kill the tops.

    26. Re:Corn and other grains by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Monsanto's biggest engineering problem with GMO's has been that Roundup resistance only lasts for, at most, 7 generations. Then they have to re-splice the gene to make it work again. Early production techniques only got 1 or 2 generations out of GMO crops before they reverted and burned up when doused in glyphosate (a.k.a. Roundup).

    27. Re:Corn and other grains by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Bill Nye is a propagandist. He's just repeating messaging and is a media figurehead, go look up his scientific qualifications. Where have I heard this before?

      "The thing is, smoking has no effect on us. That is to say, there is no difference between smoking and not smoking. This is scientifically provable. It’s certainly provable to my satisfaction, and that’s the most straightforward thing about it, to see if smoking is harmful and see if it causes cancer, and it absolutely does not. In fact, in general, people who smoke are healthier."

      I'll agree to remove the GMO labeling requirement once we don't have rich global corporations with an interest to gain from keeping the dirty facts about their product secret. Until then, I'm going with what all experience hath shewn: Marketing figureheads lie. More information is better.

    28. Re:Corn and other grains by mindwhip · · Score: 1

      "this product does not contain GMOs" is a misleading a marketing claim just like "organic food is pesticide free"*.

      The fact being that every crop has had some kind of genetic modification by humans. At one end you have selective breeding techniques, sometimes with 1000s of iterations giving a crop that is not even close to the starting plant and would not survive in the wild without various farming techniques such as fertilising (both "organic" and chemical) and watering. Then you have things like hybrids where two different strains (and even sometimes plants) are cross-bread producing a third (usually sterile) variety. Then you have the chemical modifications that have been in use for years such as the process that genetically modifies water melon (and other plants) seeds before planting that makes them a seedless variety. Most of these are genetic modifications that would not normally happen in nature (or if they do, would only happen rarely, not to the same extreme, and have no impact as they are not viable).

      (* Organic farmers use pesticides produced using "natural processes" as opposed to being chemically synthesised, which is in itself a very fine line as their production is still usually a chemical process, just the source of the chemicals or where the process is preformed differs. Some "organic" pesticides and their by-products are more toxic and harmful to humans and the general environment than their non-organic equivalents)

      --
      [The Universe] has gone offline.
    29. Re:Corn and other grains by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      In many parts of the U.S.A. it is actually illegal to put "GMO-free" on the label, because it would effectively be GMO labeling on the other foods.

    30. Re:Corn and other grains by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      As we've seen with antibiotic resistance, expect Round-Up resistant weeds for starters.

      In fact, it seems to already be a problem, with over 61 million acres as of 2012.

      Those weeds didn't develop Round-Up resistance through GMO. They developed it through old-fashioned selective breeding. Self-selective, but still selective. The Round-Up resistance in the weeds would've happened whether the crops were GMO or not, so long as they were created with the Round-Up resistance one way or another.

    31. Re:Corn and other grains by Aighearach · · Score: 1

      Look buddy, rub a couple brain cells together and think about it. Are there significant differences in the amount? Yes. Yes there are. That is not debatable, and you don't even debate it; you simply point at squirrels.

      You don't know anything about what is used on a field when, or you'd know there is a huge difference in the amount applied. Either use the truth, or don't bother pretending to have knowledge about the subject.

      It really serves no purpose to be intentionally misleading even after the correct points were already made.

    32. Re:Corn and other grains by Rockoon · · Score: 1

      Engineer? For fuck sakes Bill Nye has always been a performer. He's been riding his name recognition since "Science Guy."

      Here he is as one of the "High-fiving white guys."

      --
      "His name was James Damore."
    33. Re:Corn and other grains by istartedi · · Score: 1

      This argument appear whenever GMO is mentioned oni /., and it's usually disingenuous. Selective breeding != GMO, and I suspect you know that.

      --
      For all intensive purposes, "whom" is no longer a word. That begs the question, "who cares"?
    34. Re:Corn and other grains by dywolf · · Score: 1

      this is not a troll.
      mod up.

      --
      The guy who said the election was rigged won the presidency with the second-most votes.
  3. thank you by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    we're not allowed to lose this race.. thank you

  4. truly free markets require full information by sittingnut · · Score: 4, Interesting

    while a free market economy is much better at allocating scarce resources than any other method(especially government controlled or regulated economy), for a truly free market to work , there should be full information and perfect competition, impossible conditions.

    it doesn't help that in real world people who are most vocal for free capitalism tend to be the same who are against full information disclosure. i am willing to bet that those who voted against this labeling were such 'supporters' of 'free market capitalism'.

    1. Re:truly free markets require full information by Jiro · · Score: 4, Insightful

      It's funny how nobody who ever says that then supports the idea of labelling foods "This food picked by Mexican immigrants", even though that's information that some people would certainly like to use in their purchase decisions.

      No packaging can disclose every bit of information about the product, and the government picking and choosing what information the company is forced to provide, for political reasons, is not free market. (And make no mistake, "some pressure groups hate GMOs and want the government to force companies to label them" is "political reasons".)

    2. Re:truly free markets require full information by brian.stinar · · Score: 1

      There are costs associated with deciding which information should be fully available and then providing it. Would you like to know the person's name that picked your food, processed, drove it to the store, and then put it on the shelf? Perhaps each item should be fully labeled, and all steps of production attributed to the individuals responsible? This may seem extreme, but it helps illustrate a point.

      How about if 72% of the time the corn used in my delicious CHEETOS is genetically modified, 16% is not, and the other 12% is uncertain? Is the consumer going to have to pay the costs associated with determining that extra 12%, while the producer is going to have to go to the work? Would there be two labels for CHEETOS, three? Basically, this is saying that a food producer company:

      1. 1.) Has to be aware of when genetically modified ingredients are used
      2. 2.) Has to label food appropriately when genetically modified ingredients are used
      3. 3.) Cannot use the same labelling when switching between genetically modified, and not.

      Why should a food manufacturer have to clearly differentiate when genetically modified foods are used? Are genetically modified foods less safe? I don't believe so, and I don't believe there is a "right" to know anything, unless you pay for it. I don't want to pay for this additional cost in food production, and I don't believe other people should force me to pay for it through laws they pass.

      I believe that the reason manufacturers are interested in hiding this is because they don't have a good idea of exactly when they are using genetically modified ingredients, and they freely switch between modified, and non-modified ingredients depending on market conditions.

    3. Re:truly free markets require full information by brian.stinar · · Score: 1

      Man, the preview totally screwed up my order list HTML formatting and made me think I needed to add numbers... Thanks slashdot.

    4. Re:truly free markets require full information by DNS-and-BIND · · Score: 1

      Do you have any actual evidence, or you're just saying people that you don't like are people that you don't like? I'm aware that the first rule of tautology club is the first rule of tautology club, but come on, offer something better.

      How about a rule that says, "this food was harvested by American citizens", or did we suddenly move past full information and into something that you don't want to disclose? Two can play this game.

      --
      Shutting down free speech with violence isn't fighting fascism. It IS fascism!
    5. Re:truly free markets require full information by ChromeAeonium · · Score: 1

      Incorrect. A free market means buyers and sellers are free to act as they so choose. A regulated free market is one where some things are mandated, such as ingredients and nutrition, however, optional things, such as vegan, Halal, and Kosher labels are voluntary and subject to market demand. Why for example should a papaya have to say that it is genetically engineered, but not if it is orlah? They're both exactly as relevant to the fruit's nutrition.

      Mandating labels without a justification for the public good is the exact opposite of a free market.

    6. Re:truly free markets require full information by 93+Escort+Wagon · · Score: 2

      It's funny how nobody who ever says that then supports the idea of labelling foods "This food picked by Mexican immigrants", even though that's information that some people would certainly like to use in their purchase decisions.

      I believe produce has to be labelled with its country of origin, in the US at least.

      Although if you're talking about food grown in the US... then you should probably just assume it's all picked by Mexican immigrants.

      --
      #DeleteChrome
    7. Re:truly free markets require full information by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It's funny how nobody who ever says that then supports the idea of labelling foods "This food picked by Mexican immigrants", even though that's information that some people would certainly like to use in their purchase decisions.

      What? Of course I'd like my food to say that. Have you seriously run into someone who has argued for labelling and then argued against including that information? Because that sounds suspiciously like you are full of shit.

    8. Re:truly free markets require full information by Dog-Cow · · Score: 2

      It's probably fairly safe to say that food picked by Mexican immigrants was not grown in Mexico.

    9. Re:truly free markets require full information by SvnLyrBrto · · Score: 1

      Well, being able to verify that your produce was not picked by exploited, underpaid, or otherwise poorly treated workers (Which many Mexican immigrants in the US are.) is a legit desire. Likewise, systems should be set up so that they can confirm that neither their chocolate nor seafood is harvested with slave labor, if that consumer is concerned about such things.

      Yes, there's probably not room on the labels for every single item that may be of concern to a consumer. But there's definitely room for more than is already present. And it's the 21st century, after all. There's no reason the additional information has to be on the actual label itself. Just require; in addition to the basic information wrt/ nutrition, ingredients, and allergens; a QR code that shoppers can scan into an app that would pull up GMO, organic, fair trade, free range, grass fed, non-slave labor, and other such certifications or information. All of the information would be available consumer, and the producer still gets full choice about how to market their product.

      --
      Imagine all the people...
    10. Re:truly free markets require full information by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      What good is full information to uneducated morons who know crap about biology, genetics, chemistry, and agricultural processes? I mean, you don't have to be a specialist in all of these fields but at least you should understand enough not to be scared of getting mutations if you ingest DNA.

    11. Re:truly free markets require full information by LordLucless · · Score: 1

      The thing is, you don't need federal government intervention to gain access to full information.

      Take this case; if indeed, there is consumer interest in knowing that the food they eat is GMO-free, then there is an economic incentive for people who do sell GMO-free stuff to label their products accordingly - they'll get more sales. If you want to buy GMO-free, buy according to the label. You have all the information you need to make informed decisions, and it didn't need authoritarian legislation from on high.

      --
      Just because you're paranoid doesn't mean there isn't an invisible demon about to eat your face
    12. Re:truly free markets require full information by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Imagine my shock and horror that there are hypocrites in the free market crowd!

      Likewise, there are members of the "government is the will of the people" supporting Apple in the latest with regards to encryption.

      Oh, that full information disclosure is different.

      Right.

      Crazy world, ain't it?

    13. Re:truly free markets require full information by SvnLyrBrto · · Score: 1

      As a rule, we do expect manufacturers to do due diligence on their supply chain. Do you really think Frito-Lay doesn't know exactly what they're buying as raw ingredients for Cheetos? If they don't, it's likely that they're being willfully ignorant in order to have deniability because something seriously shady is going on.

      We scream bloody murder, after all, if Apple is even suspected of sourcing parts for their products made from conflict minerals. Why shouldn't we expect the same level of diligence from our food suppliers. Hell... for necessities like food, shouldn't we hold the producers to a *higher* standard then we do producers of consumer electronics?

      --
      Imagine all the people...
    14. Re:truly free markets require full information by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      A free market means buyers and sellers are free to act as they so choose.

      True, but I think the GP meant (which is pretty much what you learn at the beginning of every Econ 101 course) that free markets work optimally when every participant has perfect information. So a step towards that, I assume, is a good justification.

    15. Re:truly free markets require full information by NicknameUnavailable · · Score: 1

      It's funny how nobody who ever says that then supports the idea of labelling foods "This food picked by Mexican immigrants", even though that's information that some people would certainly like to use in their purchase decisions.

      You are drawing a comparison between a process and the thing derived from a process. People have a fundamental right to know what they are putting in their body.

    16. Re:truly free markets require full information by Aighearach · · Score: 1

      you should understand enough not to be scared of getting mutations if you ingest DNA.

      Is that the only area of concern that people raise? Or are there even non-health-related differences that people are interested in?

    17. Re:truly free markets require full information by Maow · · Score: 1

      It's funny how nobody who ever says that then supports the idea of labelling foods "This food picked by Mexican immigrants", even though that's information that some people would certainly like to use in their purchase decisions.

      And can you point to one instance, ever, where someone wanted GMO labelling but also specifically said they do not want labelling regarding who picked the crops?

      In the future, you'll be required to label the contents of that straw man as being GMO - and whether it was harvested by Mexican, Nicaraguan, or Honduran immigrants.

      No packaging can disclose every bit of information about the product, and the government picking and choosing what information the company is forced to provide, for political reasons, is not free market. (And make no mistake, "some pressure groups hate GMOs and want the government to force companies to label them" is "political reasons".)

      Right, no packaging can give all information, so you'll arbitrarily choose which information but certainly not for political reasons.

      I'm certain that ought to satisfy everyone.

    18. Re:truly free markets require full information by thegarbz · · Score: 2

      People have a fundamental right to know what they are putting in their body.

      People are too stupid to understand what they are putting in their body. The more information you provide the more fodder you give the doubters who don't understand what scary sounding chemical names are.

      Actually this is good. We should require the chemical composition of everything to be published on every label. Then we can get rid of all the stupid people who decide to never consume any dihydrogen monoxide, or sodium chloride (OMG a highly reactive metal, and something used to kill bacteria on my swimming pool!) again. The slightly smarter ones will google "facts about dihydrogen monoxide" and then die out too.

      That's assuming they don't die of polio first.

      I'm looking forward to a future world where we get a complete chemical composition of what's in the bottle right on the label, but don't have a clue if we're putting ketchup or habanero sauce on that sausage because there's no room left on the label to list what the actual product is. Maybe each bottle should be sold with a 30 page book, because information is good right?

      Where do you draw the line? Is everyone supposed to become their own FDA? It's almost like we need a central government body which understands to take care of this for us.

    19. Re:truly free markets require full information by Dog-Cow · · Score: 1

      If it's not health-related, they have no business, in a rational world, for legislation.

    20. Re:truly free markets require full information by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I guess I'll be the first since i don't see your point. If they added that label I have no problem. It informs me of how the company operates. Most of not all do the same but I can't vote with my wallet unless I know what I'm getting

    21. Re:truly free markets require full information by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It isn't safe to say that at all. They could have been immigrants into Mexico.

    22. Re:truly free markets require full information by shawn2772 · · Score: 1

      while a free market economy is much better at allocating scarce resources than any other method(especially government controlled or regulated economy), for a truly free market to work , there should be full information and perfect competition, impossible conditions.

      True, and this is why GMO labeling is a bad idea, because it's misleading and therefore reduces the information available to buyers.

      What makes it misleading is that the proposed labels only cover a tiny portion of the GMO products on the shelves. The labels only address GMOs produced by one specific method, gene splicing, and ignore all of the others produced by mutation breeding. Any logical analysis of the processes has to conclude that strains produced by gene splicing must be safer than those produced by drenching organisms in radiation and mutagenic chemicals to induce large numbers of random mutations, then selecting the offspring that appear to be safe and useful.

      Thus, the GMO labels highlight the "risks" of consuming safer products and imply that other, more dangerous products, are the safe ones.

    23. Re:truly free markets require full information by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Hey, who are you calling a nobody? Until we have fair and strong labor laws and trade agreements that respect fair and strong labor laws, I very much want food labelled to show its workers history. I also want to know if it contains GMOs.

    24. Re:truly free markets require full information by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I would like my merch labeled as you describe. We already have: "Product of Mexico", "Made in China". We used to have things with labels that said, "Made in the USA"... before our manufacturing sector was murdered on the altar of free-trade agreements and H1B, H2B, etc. relaxed immigration regulation.

      So, yes, I would like the choice to purchase from the farmer who pays a premium to help out his nation by employing American citizens rather than sells our country down the river to save a few shekels.

    25. Re:truly free markets require full information by AthanasiusKircher · · Score: 0

      So, yes, I would like the choice to purchase from the farmer who pays a premium to help out his nation by employing American citizens rather than sells our country down the river to save a few shekels.

      Wow -- the ignorance here is astonishing. First, there are plenty of "migrant workers" in the US who pick crops but are also American citizens. However, most of them also were either immigrants or their parents were immigrants, etc. Do you want to stigmatize them too?

      Second, farmers often operate on very slim margins. If they price their produce too high, it won't sell. And unlike many other products, they often can't wait around with a higher price and see if demand changes -- a lot of produce needs to sell within days after it has been picked. So they need to price it so it can sell... which means they are limited in what they can pay workers. This is a larger problem in the US, as we now expect "cheap food" everywhere -- American pay a much smaller proportion of their household budgets for food than they did 50 years ago. In the produce aisle, this is mostly due to cheap labor.

      Third, poke around online and read some stories about what happens when these big farms try to hire "American citizens" who haven't done such jobs before. The work is hard and the pay isn't great. And often those people who do picking tend to specialize and "learn the trade" over a number of years. Picking tends to be paid per volume picked, rather than by hour worked -- and new workers often won't earn very much, because they are incredibly inefficient. Unless you're willing to invest a few years in becoming an expert picker (and most young US citizens today aren't), you're not going to make decent money... even if you could with experience.

      The problem is complex. I'm absolutely NOT arguing in favor of just accepting the fact that illegal immigrants often pick a lot of our food -- I think that creates problems of all sorts, not least for the immigrants who often can't benefit from the regulations and benefits for US citizens. But just saying, "We need to hire more Americans" hasn't solved the problem in states that have tried that approach -- in some ways, it created new problems.

    26. Re:truly free markets require full information by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Your exact example might not be real, but we actually *do* label coffee as Fair Trade for this very reason. So argument-fail.

    27. Re:truly free markets require full information by CanadianMacFan · · Score: 1

      If a papaya is able to say that it's genetically engineered then I'm going to go out on a limb and say that some scientist probably went a wee bit too far with the engineering.

    28. Re:truly free markets require full information by Aighearach · · Score: 1

      It isn't health related, it was never health related, people who support this don't claim it is health related.

      Where in the Constitution does it say, "legislation can only be enacted for health-related reasons." Oh, wait, it isn't there.

      You don't even need to ask if there is a health reason. What you need to know is: Do people want to have the information about the product? Is that important to people? Do people believe it makes a difference to some issue, policy, or whatever in society?

      (And I'll give you the spoiler; very few people who care about this think it is a health issue!)

    29. Re:truly free markets require full information by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      God your arrogance is telling. People who are truly that ignorant of chemistry (not too hard since if it's at all mandatory you only learn about it for one term) will quickly catch on. That said, it's great because it means people will learn chemistry and have a better understanding of what they're putting into their bodies. And as another poster mentioned: the solution needs to be electronic. I would personally love to see information about the entire supply chain. That way, I can figure out how to stop supporting slave labour and horrendous environmental mismanagement. Heck, if I could do that then maybe I'd finally support the whole "free market" thing and get off of my socialist horse. Maybe.

    30. Re:truly free markets require full information by Jiro · · Score: 1

      I may not have been clear enough, but the example was about labelling food as made by Mexican immigrants for right-wing reasons (people don't like immigrants and would rather not buy food produced by them) rather than left-wing reasons (people like immigrants but don't want them to be exploited). Obviously labels made for left-wing reasons, such as fair trade labels, would appeal to the generally left-wing anti-GMO crowd.

    31. Re:truly free markets require full information by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Why not use QR codes on the food labels instead then if there is no room to disclose every bit of information as you suggest? It can point to a centrally managed gov site with in depth detail about the products history.

    32. Re:truly free markets require full information by dywolf · · Score: 1

      but we can decide which information we consider important enough to include.
      and its still a free market, because it is the consumer's choice we are protecting.

      corporation's interests are irrelevant, even though folks like you try to protect them and shield them from actual free market forces.

      --
      The guy who said the election was rigged won the presidency with the second-most votes.
    33. Re:truly free markets require full information by dywolf · · Score: 1

      technically correct (the best kind of correct), but the public rarely deals with technical definitions.

      all pedantic arguments aside, no, "GMO" 's common usage clearly refers to gene splicing/manipulating.
      any label required by law will also necessarily also be defined by law. and that definition will
      more than likely conform to the common accepted usage, rather than the technical.

      --
      The guy who said the election was rigged won the presidency with the second-most votes.
    34. Re:truly free markets require full information by shawn2772 · · Score: 1

      I'm not talking about "technical" definitions, I'm talking about "useful" definitions. If the goal is to inform people of possibly-dangerous products, then omitting those created by mutation breeding isn't a minor oversight, it's missing most of the point.

    35. Re:truly free markets require full information by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Thank you for making this argument. I personally use blood diamonds as an example but the principle is exactly the same: how something is produced matters, even if the end product doesn't differ in any other way.

      There's a nice overview showing how Monsanto is actually so evil that even if GMO's are the bees knees, you still don't want to buy anything containing their stuff: Wordpress article

  5. There is no reason to hide GMO satus by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Its always better to know more than less about the food you consume.. I would also like them to label animal products that have hormones because this can have a bad effect on some people who are fighting disease ..

  6. Anti science by Dorianny · · Score: 0

    The staples crops in the U.S are overwhelmingly GMO. If a product doesn't carry a "Organic" or "GMO free" label one can be quire confident the product contains GMO's. The purpose of the GMO label is not to help those in the market for GMO free products but as a scaremongering tactic for those that are not.

    1. Re:Anti science by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Maybe they'll put some money towards getting schools to teach kids skepticism to kids instead of liberalism.

      It wouldn't be anti-science of people weren't sheep.

    2. Re:Anti science by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It is not anti-sciense to NOT want GMO ingredients in your food.
      We just don't know the long term effects of messing with plant biology like GMO does.
      This is a totally different thing from selected breeding/crossing. Introducing (for example) a tomato gene into Corn is messing with plant biology.

      We don't even have this debate in the UK/EU. We (the consumers) has clearly demonstrated that we do not want GMO food.
      Those same food companies who rely on GMO have to do things differently when selling their products over here.
      I really does not matter to us if the US food giants don't want to sell their GMO Crap here.

      I applaud the stance of Vermont and other states.

    3. Re:Anti science by Dog-Cow · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Of course it's anti-science. Science is about formulating a hypothesis and conducting experiments to prove or disprove it. An anti-GMO stance is about forming a hypothesis and forcing everyone else in the world to validate it by fiat. No experimentation in sight.

    4. Re:Anti science by BlackPignouf · · Score: 1

      My anti-GMO stance comes from the same experiment that has been repeated hundreds of time over more than 50 years : "Let Monsanto decide if they can help people and be the good guys, or screw people and the environment, and generally be huge assholes."

    5. Re:Anti science by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Ah Monsanto. The same company who sues farmers who don't use their GMO seeds for patent violations because the wind has blown seed from their plants onto their fields. They didn't ask for GMO seeds to grow on their land yet they end up in court or throw in the towel and agree to only use Monsanto GMO seeds from there on in.

    6. Re:Anti science by Aighearach · · Score: 1

      Actually, science doesn't tell us which information we should want to have.

      The argument isn't that there is a provable science-y difference, that is just a straw man you erected. The argument is that people want to have this information. That is it. There are lots of reasons, including ones related to land management.

    7. Re:Anti science by sonamchauhan · · Score: 1

      Its an information label, not a warning label.

      Its there so consumers can follow their _own_ hypothesis -- not some lab's.

    8. Re:Anti science by Dog-Cow · · Score: 1

      Do you limit your food aversion to crops grown with Monsanto seeds, or do you vilify a technology because of one supposed abuser?

    9. Re:Anti science by Dog-Cow · · Score: 1

      I'm not the one who erected the ant-science straw man. You are making an argument that the poster I replied to did not make. Please try to keep up. While you're at it, stop legislating shit just because you want to know it. You have ways of getting the information that don't increase my costs.

    10. Re:Anti science by Aighearach · · Score: 1

      Look, it isn't "anti-science" to know what science is.

      What science tells you what labels I want? Is it ag science? Or do they not even study humans, much less this?

      What science tells you what labels I should want? There isn't one, that isn't science.

      I'm certainly not being anti-science. But if somebody tells me that my opinion is "anti-science" because they don't share my values, they should find a mirror. And I'm not talking about optics, I'm talking about psychology.

      It doesn't need to be "different" to you in order for me to want the label. Science isn't involved, except that we're having to explain to you what "science" is after you throw the word around.

    11. Re:Anti science by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      A pro-GMO stance is about leaping to unfounded conclusions and forcing everyone else in the world to validate it by fiat. No experimentation in sight.

      potatoes, patartoes ...

  7. Miniscule Rhode Island by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Funny

    But what does Minuscule Rhode Island have to say about this? When will Petite Delaware speak up?

    1. Re:Miniscule Rhode Island by 93+Escort+Wagon · · Score: 1

      I'm still waiting for Big Honkin' Texas to weigh in.

      --
      #DeleteChrome
  8. Pro-science by sonamchauhan · · Score: 1

    Whether ingredients in food are GMO (or not) is a data point.
    Its strange a scientist would want to want people to have access to _less_ data rather than more.

    Let people can form their own judgements here.

    1. Re:Pro-science by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It's not that they want access to less data. It's that they don't want to promote biased data.

      Nobody has ever seriously contemplated passing a law that says you *can't* call something a product containing GMOs or a product that contains no GMOs or whatever.

    2. Re:Pro-science by Ambassador+Kosh · · Score: 1

      It is not a data point and it has never been a data point. It is a useless label designed to promote fear.

      When you buy Organic potatoes does it tell you that they have been sprayed with heavy metals as a fungicide instead of the much safer chemical methods?

      When you buy Organic does it tell you that the seeds where mutated with completely natural and organic radiation to scramble the genome and then grown with expressed traits as the standard for which ones work?

      When you buy Organic does it tell you that chemical mutagens where applied to allow two plants to cross breed? Did you think that cross breeding is something actually natural and happens without help?

      Does the GMO label tell you what gene was inserted? Does it tell you where it was inserted? Does it tell you how it was inserted? A GMO label tells you absolutely nothing of any value at all and it just promotes fear.

      --
      Computer modeling for biotech drug manufacturing is HARD! :)
    3. Re:Pro-science by Aighearach · · Score: 1

      Right, but these are not actual scientists, these are people who speak for them on the internet.

      Any real scientist would agree that it is not a matter of science, but of which policy people want to have. Which information people care about can be measured scientifically; the result would be that many people care about GMO. But science can't tell us which policy we should want, and I'm very skeptical of somebody claiming to be a "scientist" and that that means they know what policy we should want. It certainly raises the question, "Wait, what science are you trained in again?"

    4. Re:Pro-science by sonamchauhan · · Score: 1

      Its an imperfect data point, but a data point nonetheless.

      "Organic potatoes ...sprayed with heavy metals
      Organic... seeds ... mutated with ... radiation"

      Well, I'd like this information :) That fact its not disclosed is a failure of the certifying authority.

      "Does the GMO label tell you what gene was inserted? [...] where ? [...] how ? "

      Well, I'd like this information too - so I can make my own risk assessment. I'd like to know, for instance, if octopus genes were inserted into passionfruit (would never eat that). Or was Granny Smith genome inserted into Red Delicious apples to make them tangier (I'd eat 'em).

      "A GMO label tells you absolutely nothing of any value at all and it just promotes fear."
      It tell me more than nothing (which is what you're advocating). Right now, at the very least, it tells me no foreign genetic sequences were inserted (versus silenced) in my foods.

    5. Re:Pro-science by Dog-Cow · · Score: 1

      It only tells you that no foreign genetic sequences were inserted on purpose.

    6. Re:Pro-science by Ambassador+Kosh · · Score: 1

      That is why I advocate that we need real labeling laws where the full information for a product is available online and you just scan something like a QR code with the food. That way you can put in all your food biases into your cell phone and then just scan the food to see if it is okay.

      Adding an Organic or GMO label doesn't help you make an informed decision it just makes it easy for you to make a decision that you feel better about but has done nothing for you. The problem is that decisions are being made based on fear and lack of understanding and long term that hurts everyone.

      I just can't support playing in to people's fears and giving information that does not actually help in any way.

      If this happens the very next thing that anti-GMO people will start saying it that if it was not dangerous it would not have a special label and then they will push to ban it for safety reasons even though no such reasons exist. The anti-GMO thing is almost 100% based on some kind of food religion and not on any science and I do not want to play into that crap.

      Food needs to have COMPLETE labels. That means all the chemicals the food is grown with, DNA, protein expression, presiticides, herbicides, heavy metals, location, fair trade etc etc etc. Then you just scan it with a phone. Partway just does more harm than good.

      --
      Computer modeling for biotech drug manufacturing is HARD! :)
  9. Smart companies will call it "Intelligent Design" by FrodoOfTheShire · · Score: 1, Insightful

    Just add the label "GMO Created by Intelligent Design" and the whole Heart Land will buy the products like gene spliced hot cakes.

  10. Re:Interesting spin because it's Vermont by 93+Escort+Wagon · · Score: 1

    Vermont is just tweaked that New Hampshire has a much better motto.

    "Freedom and Unity" is just lame...

    --
    #DeleteChrome
  11. Re:Interesting spin because it's Vermont by whit3 · · Score: 1

    This is clearly a case of states' rights...This is apparently acceptable because it's being done in Vermont.

    No, it's not being done in Vermont. The Vermont statute controls foods produced elsewhere and sold in Vermont: it's a major interstate commerce demand, and will add its burden to a broad swath of folk who couldn't vote in that state. Sadly, it's probably enforceable: state liquor laws have long created similar schisms, which is why a favorite pastime of yesteryear was to load up a few cases of a favorite beer from state A to take home to state B. So, I wonder how long it will take to certify non-GMO status for pepper from India? Coffee from Brazil? Will stocks of unlabeled seed from before the law came into effect be presumed GMO untill proven otherwise? Will liars prosper, or will false claims actually be investigated? How? I think the law reeks. What information I would like to have, won't be on the label. And learning that the poppy seeds in my salad dressing were genetically modified... is worthless, a waste of ink and paper.

  12. a word from my friend by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    no dummy that guy https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mYajHZ4QUVM&ebc=ANyPxKrnWom-LPptmNtmSTqu5beflsgme5QbbnlvYd6H1pnNxp6RlZVy0lPBCC20pag0x8pYnjrd

  13. Tiny Vermon? by Okian+Warrior · · Score: 2

    Tiny Vermont?

    If it's small, something else must be small. I guarantee you there's no problem. I guarantee.

    1. Re:Tiny Vermon? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Riiight. -Florida.

    2. Re:Tiny Vermon? by U2xhc2hkb3QgU3Vja3M · · Score: 1

      And why do they call it "Tiny Vermont" anyway? As a Canadian, I'm confused. Unless you call the other states with names like "Assholes California" , "Jerks New York", "Potato Head Idaho", etc.

  14. Re:Smart companies will call it "Intelligent Desig by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Just add the label "GMO Created by Intelligent Design" and the whole Heart Land will buy the products like gene spliced hot cakes.

    This is bigoted, even for a /. comment.

  15. Reminder: Anti-labelling means anti-free market by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    A lot of these people who oppose these laws say they do so because they prefer the markets to remain unregulated. However, the proper functioning of a free market, particularly with respect to its ability to enact societal change, is predicated on the idea that informed consumers will make purchasing choices that reflect their preferences. Whether you agree with anti-GMO people or not (and I think they're full of shit), the market can only properly value GMO vs. non-GMO foods if the end consumer can choose which one they are buying and (if they care enough) pay a premium for non-GMO products.

    Keep that in mind any time you read about international trade treaties: many of them carry labelling stipulations that are specifically designed to PREVENT informed consumers from making choices that might otherwise drive positive societal change, because tracking the whims and desires of an informed consumer is less profitable and more difficult than tracking the whims and desires of an uninformed one.

    1. Re:Reminder: Anti-labelling means anti-free market by Dog-Cow · · Score: 2

      A lot of people opposing these laws do so because these laws are promoting ignorance and stupidity. In no way or form is a free market intended to affect societal change, so who the fuck cares if it does so? In fact, if one were to use a free market to enact such a change, these anti-science groups should petition the producers directly to label their products. They should organize boycotts and similar free-market actions. Forcing an action through legislation is the precise opposite of a free market.

      Subverting a market to promote one's pet cause is not, in fact, promoting a free market.

    2. Re:Reminder: Anti-labelling means anti-free market by NicknameUnavailable · · Score: 1

      A lot of people opposing these laws do so because these laws are promoting ignorance and stupidity.

      Question for you: do you know how GMO foods are made? I'll give you a hint: we don't actually have genetic engineering cracked, it's "copy this from this thing into this other thing, did it do something that looks right for a finite subset of tests?" There is absolutely good reason to label GMO foods, people need to be every bit as informed as if they had a surgeon about to perform heart surgery on them that just roughly knows what location of the body the heart is in.

    3. Re:Reminder: Anti-labelling means anti-free market by Dog-Cow · · Score: 2

      Do you have any evidence that GMO is dangerous to those who consume them? I believe there's plenty of evidence that heart surgeons with a vague idea of anatomy are dangerous.

      Your comparison is so absurd that there really are no words for it.

    4. Re:Reminder: Anti-labelling means anti-free market by PopeRatzo · · Score: 1

      They should organize boycotts and similar free-market actions.

      How can you boycott a product based upon certain properties if the manufacturer purposely obfuscates whether or not the product has those properties?

      Bottom line: the people who are paying the bills - the consumers - want to know the provenance of their food. If it promotes "ignorance and stupidity" for people to know this, then it's the responsibility of the ones who are selling the product to do education and/or marketing to make sure people understand all the miraculous properties of the shit they want to sell.

      --
      You are welcome on my lawn.
    5. Re:Reminder: Anti-labelling means anti-free market by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Do you have any evidence that GMO-crap you're feeding people is safe? It won't hurt them or their genes, in 50 years?

      No? Well, fuck off then, shill.

    6. Re:Reminder: Anti-labelling means anti-free market by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "Leaded fuel isn't bad for us!"
      "Lead paint is perfectly fine!"
      "Cigarettes don't cause cancer!"

      I'm not giving those with commercial interest an inch when it comes to saying the shit they're selling is harmless. GMO corps are at the bottom of the barrel ethically, just look at the way they use their patents. Screw me once, shame on you. Screw me twice, shame on me.

      Do you have any real evidence from proven non-compromised sources which indicate there are no long term health problems associated with GMO? I mean, we've been down this road before with compromised studies so many fucking times, you'd have to be a fool to not have suspicions of new changes to food -- And you'd have to be a fucking shill (or parroting their words) if you think we shouldn't at the very fucking least make manufacturers label their shit. Or else how can we even run the fucking study to prove GMO harmful or harmless? Why do you fear science, bitch?

    7. Re:Reminder: Anti-labelling means anti-free market by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Do you have proof that GMOs are actually safe? And no, no evidence of harm is not proof they are safe. So they might be found unsafe one day in the future, perhaps everyone who ate more than a certain quantity in their life will get some gentic disease or something. It is possible, you can't prove otherwise, we just don't have a track record to go by.....

    8. Re:Reminder: Anti-labelling means anti-free market by Rockoon · · Score: 1

      Question for you: do you know how GMO foods are made?

      I do.

      They are grown using sunlight, water, nitrogen, carbon dioxide, and various other carbon compounds.

      I also know how non-gmo food is made. Wanna take a fucking guess as to how?

      Hand-waving isn't a fucking argument, you dumb fuck.

      --
      "His name was James Damore."
    9. Re:Reminder: Anti-labelling means anti-free market by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      No, your analogy would be your heart surgeon being legally mandated to tell you their religious and political beliefs before surgery. If they have nothing to hide, right?

    10. Re:Reminder: Anti-labelling means anti-free market by NicknameUnavailable · · Score: 1

      Do you have any evidence that GMO is dangerous to those who consume them?

      Examples of things that have harmed people after 5, 10, 20, 50 or generations away from their use exist throughout Human history. Lack of proven danger over such a finite span of time is not an argument by any stretch of the imagination. This on top of the fact every single GMO change is distinct. Go ahead and think about that a moment, consider just how many GMO products are out there, the average lifecycle for new changes in any given product line and the basic fact that any artificial adjustment to genes may produce adverse results that don't even manifest themselves for generations. You can fly blind if you like, don't presume to believe you have the right to force that on everyone, especially those of us with experience in synthetic biology. Let the developing world test it, they need the surpluses of food.

    11. Re:Reminder: Anti-labelling means anti-free market by NicknameUnavailable · · Score: 1

      I do. They are grown using sunlight, water, nitrogen, carbon dioxide, and various other carbon compounds. I also know how non-gmo food is made. Wanna take a fucking guess as to how? Hand-waving isn't a fucking argument, you dumb fuck.

      You clearly have no knowledge of synthetic biology and you are in fact evil for speaking on the subject without it.

  16. Re:Interesting spin because it's Vermont by Z00L00K · · Score: 1

    It's the freedom of the people - they will be free to make their own decisions based on sufficient information. Without the mandated information the freedom is actually limited to what the companies decide.

    --
    If builders built buildings the way programmers wrote programs, then the first woodpecker would destroy civilization.
  17. Why mandatory? by snowsnoot · · Score: 1

    Just let whatever company wants to market their product as non-GMO do so ans leave the rest as they were? BTW, organic certified = non-GMO so there's that already. Food industry is scared of having to respond to consumer demands? OK cool go out of business, see if we care!

  18. May Contain Genetically Modified Ingredients. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Don't require that each package positively state whether or not it contains GMOs. Some will contain them, some won't. It will vary form one batch of corn to the next. So allow the phrase "May Contain Genetically Modified Ingredients" to suffice. This will allow companies to slap it on EVERYTHING (including products without any ingredients for which there are GM varieties on the market). This will dilute the value of labeling until it no longer matters. Nearly every crop will be genetically modified eventually.

  19. Non GMO Foods by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    So when almost everything on the supermarket shelf is labelled as GMO product, and the non GMO versions cost significantly more and perform worse? Potentially even make people sick, like this whole raw milk stupidity?

    Anti GMOers are in for a rude shock, and I wholeheartedly support this.

  20. Re:Interesting spin because it's Vermont by NicknameUnavailable · · Score: 1

    No, it's not being done in Vermont. The Vermont statute controls foods produced elsewhere and sold in Vermont: it's a major interstate commerce demand, and will add its burden to a broad swath of folk who couldn't vote in that state. Sadly, it's probably enforceable: state liquor laws have long created similar schisms, which is why a favorite pastime of yesteryear was to load up a few cases of a favorite beer from state A to take home to state B. So, I wonder how long it will take to certify non-GMO status for pepper from India? Coffee from Brazil? Will stocks of unlabeled seed from before the law came into effect be presumed GMO untill proven otherwise? Will liars prosper, or will false claims actually be investigated? How? I think the law reeks. What information I would like to have, won't be on the label. And learning that the poppy seeds in my salad dressing were genetically modified... is worthless, a waste of ink and paper.

    I disagree and so do others. Thankfully this isn't an instance where you get to push your insane ideas on others (and in their bodies.)

  21. Idiots by pdavisgenoa · · Score: 0

    I can't wait for the day the rest of America wakes up to the fact that the anti-GMO movement is the Hipster/millennial/elitist version of climate change deniers. 62% of everything you buy in a typical grocery store - pre-processed, canned, frozen, fresh - is GMO. Has been for many years now. The only "evidence" that exists showing any negative effects from GMO's can be found only in the realm of fringe or conspiracy sites that also "educate" the public about the evils of flouride and vaccinations.

  22. Other labeling ideas by mi · · Score: 0

    I can suggest some other mandatory certifications to allay consumers' fears and help them make political statements:

    • "Grown in Vermont" — replace by your state or an even lesser locale as needed.
    • "Fair Paid" — all of the workers involved were paid at least double the national minimum wage.
    • "Minority Grown"no Whites among the workers involved. Optional sub-certifications can be added to specify, which racial minority in particular was involved.
    • "Grown by Whites" — no, scratch that, that's like sooo racist...
    • "Femininely Grown" — for the fish without bicycles.
    • "LGBT Farmed" — to help all those LGBT farmers in their struggle for acceptance.
    • If you identify as some other Foo-American, I sincerely apologize for failing to mention Foo — it was outrageously exclusionary and harmful of me. As soon as the hurt from my unwittingly virtually punching you in the face subsides, feel free to add the "Foo Raised" or "Proudly made by Foo" at the top of this list and we shall all cheer.

    The compliance with each label's statute shall be monitored and enforced by the Attorney General and penalties for violations shall be up to $1000 per day per person.

    Now, of course, if we interpreted the Commerce Clause of the Constitution as broadly as we do the First Amendment, none of this would be possible... But, hey, what good is a Democracy, if the majority can not impose its will on an (unpopular) minority?

    --
    In Soviet Washington the swamp drains you.
  23. Because free markets are for their use by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    A free and fully informed consumer market is only for the powerful corporations. Their consumers must be kept in the dark.

    I don't know if you've had this over in your country, but in the UK we used to have "Economy" loaves which came in three sizes of slice, just like normal bread:thin, medium, thick. Thin was only of use if you were so dirt poor that you could only afford a nearly uselessly thin slice of bread. Spreading anything other than warm margerine on it would roll the bread up and break the slice into pieces. And forget about toast. Thick slices meant that you had a lot of the cheap-ass bread to taste, which isn't why you wanted it, it's basically something to keep your fingers clean when you eat the filling. So medium slices only were used. Indeed even on expensive "tasty" bread, thick slices were barely used.

    But they got rid of the medium sliced economy loaf.

    "Why? I buy that!" you complained.
    "Our customers wanted that change. We had a survey" they responded.

    Yeah, right. No way a survey got that response. What question did they ask? If you had to choose between a medium sliced loaf twice the price and thick sliced economy, which would you chose?"?

    They got rid of thin slices. Nobody buys it.

    And medium cut into their profits.After all, you have to buy 50% more loaves if they're thick sliced. Or you can buy the store brand medium which is cheaper per slice, but more profit for them.

    All they had to do was get rid of the economy medium slice competition.

    Of course, in older days, bread had some taste, whereas now, to bake a loaf from basic ingredients in the minimum time fucks up the taste completely. And if they take longer, they produce fewer loaves or need much bigger production lines, meaning a higher cost outlay and more maintenance. So they gave out tasteless bread, even the "high quality" stuff. So the difference between economy low quality with no taste and premium high quality with no taste is fuck all other than cost.

    They HAD to kill the economy slice.

    Of course, since they got rid of the only economy sliced bread they sold, nobody bought it. And so within a year they got rid of economy bread altogether. "Our customers didn't want the economy loaf!". Yeah, right.

  24. "To Its Knees" is right... by Cornwallis · · Score: 4, Insightful

    As A Vermonter I love to see these stories. VT is increasingly a playground for the rich and those subsumed with WLG* to support the cause du jour.

    Hate fracking? Vermont BANNED it in a very public legislative effort. (Even though Vermont will never have fracking due to geologic conditions in the state.) But of course the Illuminati who run the state strongly support a new, natural gas pipeline that will transport fracked NG to the most "sustainable" of towns.

    Hate litter? We are all becoming professional garbage managers due to legislatively micro-managed trash laws. (Meanwhile, Keurig/Green Mountain Coffee STILL dumps millions of plastic, unrecyclable single-use K-cups into the environment.

    The local "food co-op" broadcasts BUY LOCAL then sells grossly overpriced Yuppie-chow imported from California.

    I can go on but you get the point. Do as I say - not as I do.

    *White Liberal Guilt

  25. Thank you for missing his by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    "The one from the store is flavorless crap. Very few people stop buying it"

    A large number of people is a million. But that's only 0.014% of the population of planet earth.

    You moron.

  26. Why not? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    they already label it. why not label it GMO. If it's supposed to be healthier and better for you, surely this is a GOOD thing to put on there?

    Why label things Organic? Why not non-Organic and let people choose if they want non-Organic food???

    Would that be because Organic methods are something you do to the produce used? Isn't genetically modifying them ALSO something you're doing to the produce?

    And, no, Cross breeding is NOT GMO. Otherwise sexual reproduction would be classed as GMO, and even living is GMO. And cancer GMO. And eating GMO. Why do YOU get to say how much broader the genetic change of a living organism's genetic code gets to be? If the word becomes so broad it cannot pass any information along, it ceases to have meaning, and if there is no GMO, then there can be no GMO patents or "IP" protection.

    1. Re:Why not? by Dog-Cow · · Score: 1

      Who claims that GMO is healthier? I mean, there are documented cases of organic produce having pathogens that GMO crops would not have, but let's ignore inconvenient facts for now.

  27. Corporations are people by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    And as people they cannot be compelled to say things that they do not wish to. The first amendment protects the corporation's free speech to print or not to print whatever they want to on packages. And the commerce clause of article I has already ruled that states cannot deny free trade with other states. If Vermont allows the sale of lettuce in their state, they must also accept lettuce from another state without tarrif.

  28. Tiny? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I've never heard of a town in Vermont named Tiny. Is this a reference to its size by area? There are five other states smaller than it. It's the not the least populated. What does tiny mean?

  29. Uh, it's 40 years on, dude. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0, Flamebait

    the media haven't been left wing for thirty years or more,and it's getting far right wing for the last 10-20 years. You REALLY missed the 70's, didn't you? Stop pretending the world is still the same halcyon days where you didn't notice anyone different from you anyhwere in your sight and everything looked to be proving God Loves America (tm).

    1. Re:Uh, it's 40 years on, dude. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Article after article on how the 2nd amendment "doesn't mean you can have guns", how the 1st amendment "should have limitations", how national borders are bad and we should accept unlimited immigration, how we need more welfare state, etc, are all left-wing agendas.

      Where exactly is this far right wing media you speak of?

    2. Re:Uh, it's 40 years on, dude. by khallow · · Score: 2

      Once FoxNews gets into the news space all other news sources cease to exist.

    3. Re: Uh, it's 40 years on, dude. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The CIA has total control over the mass media. They admitted this during the Church Committee hearings in 1970s, stating that they had been doing so since the early 1950s. Any perceived bias in the media serves their interests.

    4. Re: Uh, it's 40 years on, dude. by Type44Q · · Score: 1

      Disarming the masses isn't actually a "leftwing agenda;" it's a totalitatian agenda. Unless you have an IQ under 105 (and/or are entirely ignorant of history), you've already figured out that "left" and "right" are meaningless , as both so-called "schools of thought" have been commandeered by the same interests. Oh, wait; you haven't? Nevermind, then.

    5. Re: Uh, it's 40 years on, dude. by jedidiah · · Score: 1

      > Disarming the masses isn't actually a "leftwing agenda;" it's a totalitatian agenda.

      While all political parties seem to want to meddle in things that really are none of their business, certain people are hostile to the idea of self-reliance. You may need to take care of business for yourself some day. The situation may not allow for you to call upon some government entity to rescue you.

      When seconds count, the government is minutes away.

      --
      A Pirate and a Puritan look the same on a balance sheet.
    6. Re: Uh, it's 40 years on, dude. by Bartles · · Score: 1

      Show me a left-wing government that didn't disarm it's people as it rose to power.

    7. Re: Uh, it's 40 years on, dude. by Type44Q · · Score: 1

      Causation vs correlation; how about I show you (so-called) "rightwing governments " that have done (or are doing) the same thing? It's not about "left" and "right" as those have both been co-opted by interests that we could describe as fascist (which is really feudalism in disguise).

    8. Re: Uh, it's 40 years on, dude. by Type44Q · · Score: 1

      And yes, for all practical purposes Stalin was a fascist...

    9. Re: Uh, it's 40 years on, dude. by Type44Q · · Score: 1

      It's about actual power and control, not vapid ideologies. Those are just tools to confuse, as you've so clearly demonstrated...

    10. Re: Uh, it's 40 years on, dude. by Bartles · · Score: 1

      No he wasn't.

    11. Re: Uh, it's 40 years on, dude. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Actually, I'm a liberal and I would like to take away these people guns.

      Just these people though.

  30. Re:Interesting spin because it's Vermont by iris-n · · Score: 1

    Since Brazil and India already have GMO labelling laws in place, I doubt it will be problem.

    --
    entropy happens
  31. In love with Vermont by victorsosa · · Score: 1

    I starting to fell love with the state of Vermont; Sander's state

  32. Consumer choice, even if it’s all wrong by Theovon · · Score: 0

    if someone wants to believe in the FSM or that the earth is 6000 years old, they should have the right to do it. If someone wants to filter their food selections on the basis of being GMO or not, that should also be their choice.

    The GMO concerns, however, have some sense to them. While being GMO is not inherently bad, I have no confidence that GMO producers will test their GMO food products well enough. It’s not profitable. Also, for someone with a corn allergy (like my wife), the “GMO” label is the most reliable way to detect if there are hidden corn products in the food, because essentialy all corn is GMO. The FDA says that corn isn’t an allergen (even though the probability of encountering it times the probability of having a sensitivity is probably higher than the same metric for wheat), so it doesn’t have to be labeled, so this is the last safety net we have. And don’t tell me that we can avoid corn by avoiding processed foods: They sneak corn products into “100% pure chicken breast” for crying out loud.

    1. Re:Consumer choice, even if it’s all wrong by jader3rd · · Score: 1

      I have no confidence that GMO producers will test their GMO food products well enough. It’s not profitable.

      Hey, because the lawsuits from killing off millions of consumers would just be a little line item on the balance sheet.

  33. Spiderman? Fantastic Four? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Wolverine?

  34. I remember by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I remember there being a post on Slashdot a while bakc, where a survey at a university(!) showed that
    80% of all people taking the survey thinks that food containing DNA should be labeled.

    People in general have no idea what GMO is, or how it affects the body (hint: it does the same thing as other stuff with DNA).

  35. Soo..... Everything then? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Because really, nearly ALL the food we eat today has been "modified" at some point.

  36. How Was Organism Modified by wasteoid · · Score: 3, Interesting

    If it was old-fashioned breeding techniques, no problem. If scientists used a virus to splice genes to/from an organism, I want to know. That technique has not been proven to be completely accurate or side-effect free.

    1. Re:How Was Organism Modified by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It also hasn't proven to be inaccurate or have any side effects. Science has demonstrated that there are no risks to GMO that aren't also inherent in the way we've been selecting for desired traits for thousands of years. Maybe this isn't 'proven' but only in the same way that evolution is 'just a theory'. You can't prove that kind of negative, but you can still be confident or even certain, scientifically speaking, until evidence is found to the contrary.

      Inserting a desired gene through gene splicing is considerably safer and less random than the old-fashioned way. The old-fashioned way, after all, carries the risk of any number of other genes coming along for the ride, while a crop properly sequenced and analyzed makes sure it's absolutely certain one gene, and only one gene, is added.

      All you're saying is you're scared because the technique is comparatively new. It's an uninformed risk-analysis but it's also very common.

    2. Re:How Was Organism Modified by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      this! and to science's surprise: those trans-species genes were transmitted in germ line fashion from field to field in the wild. there is the evidence that perhaps ability has yet again exceeded wisdom.

    3. Re:How Was Organism Modified by pi_rules · · Score: 1

      Conventional breeding isn't guaranteed to be safe either. In the 60's we bred a poisonous potato on accident: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/...

      I'm sure there's more example of stuff like that happening but it's the only one I know off the top of my head. We've been doing conventional breeding for about 10,000 years and we only discovered DNA in the last century. You don't think we made another dud in the previous 9,900 years of mucking with plant DNA before we even knew what it was?

      You think it's more dangerous to splice in an isolated sequence into a known plant and then test the snot out of it before releasing it compared to caveman Og bumping plant sex organs into one another and hoping the offspring is better?

  37. Non-GMO Vegetable Oils less healthy than GMO by gordguide · · Score: 2

    One of the healthiest vegetable oils, Canola Oil, is a product of genetic modification to remove a potential toxin, making it safe for humans to consume. Most of the characteristics were obtained by "conventional" genetic modification, similar to that used to create, for example, a seedless fruit variety.

    However since Monsanto introduced the Gene-Spliced variety in the late 1990's, ("Roundup Ready Canola") that form has come to dominate the available crops in Canada and the USA. Also, the Monsanto variety has found it's way into the storage lots of the non-licensed seed stock. The result is the GMO Canola is virtually the only form available today in food grade Canola Oil (although it is worth noting that at least 87% is by grower's choice of the Monsanto seed, not seed stock contamination).

    To avoid the GMO variety is to abandon the use of Canola altogether.

    Canola pushes both all the "Heart Smart" buttons, and all the "GMO/non-GMO" buttons.

    Because food manufacturers have largely embraced Canola as an input in processed foods, essentially everything from all the middle aisles in a North American supermarket contains GMO Canola. In other words, almost all the products in the supermarket in Vermont will have to be labeled as containing GMO ingredients.

    The alternative is to use a less healthy vegetable oil, and that might include Hydrogenated varieties containing unhealthy Trans Fats, and earn the right to apply the NON-GMO label.

    1. Re:Non-GMO Vegetable Oils less healthy than GMO by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Canola oil is a hydrogenated oil

    2. Re:Non-GMO Vegetable Oils less healthy than GMO by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The alternative is to use a less healthy vegetable oil

      Or to use ordinary sunflower oil. It is healthier (more polyunsaturated fats), cheaper and more readily available.

  38. it would be really funny if... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    every major food manufacturer and wholesaler just pulled out of the vermont market instead........

  39. GMO's are not necessarily safe by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Man all the posts suggesting or outright saying GMO's are safe(and people are fools to think otherwise? WTF).

    GMO's as a singular definition is very poor, it needs to be labeled more like plastic/recycling programs; A reference number narrowing in on how the organism was modified/used.
    Examples:
    code#) Modified to resist pesticide (most, and worst use of gene modification; just easiest)
    code#) Anti-Rot Gene (Those tomatoes suck)
    #) Patented/method(bad idea but its 'the way it is'(
    #) So many..
    Technically GMO I believe can even be farmer selected/cultivated varieties.

    Resisting pesticides means more poison to environment and likely consuming a greater amount in the food itself(even if it's 'within safe limits' bleah).

    As I recall there was a cucumber developed and it went right into production for our dinner tables; It could have disastrous but the harvesters hand picking them developed rashes and it was destroyed.

    IMO we should be reducing world population to levels where GMO would seems like a wasted effort.

  40. TMI is a Tax on Bandwidth, Cost of Obfuscation by retroworks · · Score: 4, Interesting

    Vermont resident here. Best argument I heard against the labelling requirement was that it's TMI. Similar to the arguments about packaging being "recycled content" or "recyclable", or "made in USA", the opponents make the case that every additional disclosure requirement obfuscates ingredient and nutrition information, or dolphin-safe etc. If Vermont required companies put the number of women employed as a percentage of labor, or minority representation on company board of directors, or employee-owned stock, etc. etc., SOMEONE will always be in favor of "disclosing" it on the label. But there's a legitimate concern that the net effect is "noise". Consumers engage in a form of "moral licensing", giving more weight to "recyclable" than "carbs". T

    here is a social cost to obfuscation and "Too Much Information" on labels.

    Many in Vermont have a legitimate purpose in branding the state as more natural and organic because it's basically impossible to operate factory farming here. But while legitimate, it's also legitimate to argue Vermont's concerns are basically protectionism against milk and cheese made more cheaply in Ohio. My concerns over GMO has to do with monoculture and unintended consequences of reduced genetic diversity, and eventual loss of rights to plant your own seeds. And I feel strongly about it. But trying to make other people who are less educated, who think GMO is a health concern, share my agenda is a "poster child" technique which will produce fewer returns the more information is packed onto a label. If we put every "true" thing on a label, people will be deluged and stop reading labels. And THAT is the tactic I hope food labels don't embrace - EULA Agreement scale labels that provide so much "information" that the consumers are lost in politics, packaging, nutrition, ingredients, weight, volume, etc.

    --
    Gently reply
    1. Re:TMI is a Tax on Bandwidth, Cost of Obfuscation by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      absolutely nothing prevents farmers from planting non-GMO products.. the fact is that they are making the choice because the products are cheaper, higher yielding, etc. not sure what "eventual loss of rights to plant your own seeds" means.

    2. Re:TMI is a Tax on Bandwidth, Cost of Obfuscation by Ksevio · · Score: 1

      My concerns over GMO has to do with monoculture and unintended consequences of reduced genetic diversity, and eventual loss of rights to plant your own seeds.

      Then you should be lobbying for "monoculture", "causes reduced genetic diversity", and "restricted planting of seed" labels. Although common in GM foods, they are not unique to them (and not all GMOs fit under those labels).

  41. "May contain GMO ingredients" by aliquis · · Score: 1

    Can't they have a label for when it may or may not?
    And use that for those who don't want to have to be bothered with it?

    Or companies feel that consumers in other states will avoid the products if they say they contain GMO ingredients?
    I guess then they have made their choice. Personally I'm not sure I would care if I lived in the US. Also I would just take "may" for what it is, just as it was before.

  42. to *you* by aepervius · · Score: 1

    and to *me*. but not to those who have irrational thought about GMO. Or Hallal. Take it as a religion : how would you feel as a jewish person if people were adding pork stuff everywhere without labelling it ? Or Add in food stuff like, rind or pork grease, when you are a vegetarian by conviction,without noting it ? Same things here. If a majority of epople want it, then maybe it is us , the minority which recognize as GMO as being generally safe , which should hear and bow to the masses.

    --
    C. Sagan : A demon haunted world:
    http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0345409469/
    visit randi.org
    1. Re:to *you* by ArmoredDragon · · Score: 2

      If we use your reasoning, then we should label any non-kosher food as treif and any non-halal food as haram. Yet nobody actually does that. Instead they simply label it if it meets the demands of those religions. There are two dead simple ways you can avoid GMO food with present labeling:

      - Buy organic
      - Buy GMO free

      Food manufacturers prominently label both of these terms. Both of them are a waste of time (and in the case of organic, a waste of money) but don't let that stop you if you find that your god gets angry at you for eating GMO crop.

    2. Re:to *you* by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You're being accurate when you suggest that we take it as a religion, but your last sentence suggests the wrong sort of solution (especially when immediately followed by your sig). Accepting and embracing irrational viewpoints because they're popular is always the wrong choice.

  43. Right, so now they have to label all food... by rgbatduke · · Score: 3, Interesting

    ... except for salt. I guess salt has never been genetically modified compared to (say) 1000 to 5000 years ago, perhaps because it doesn't contain any genes.

    Everything else -- arguably including wild game -- has been modified by humans manipulating its genes, most often by the tried and true method of waiting for "nature" to cause a mutation and then selectively breeding to stabilize it in a domesticated population.

    So General Foods etc should retaliate by simply labelling all food products as having been modified relative to their "natural" state prior to the existence of mankind. Then consumers will get bored looking at the label (and possibly might be educated about the meaning of "GMO" relative to the biological human universe). End of problem.

    --
    Even when the experts all agree, they may well be mistaken. --- Bertrand Russell.
    1. Re:Right, so now they have to label all food... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I'd like to know if the meat I eat was fed antibiotics. Maybe grain fed vs grass fed or in a feed lot.

      I want to know if herbicides were used on the plants I eat. Or pesticides. And which ones.

      I buy most of my veggies from a CSA where I know the farmer and his techniques. He doesn't use herbicides so I don't have them on my food. He will use pesticides if the pest load gets too high. He uses techniques that reduce or eliminate the need for them. Pesticides == $$$.

      ex: His apple orchard. He puts sticky red balls on the perimeter trees and some at the center. Each week, he cleans the bugs off them & reapplies the sticky. The perimeter has 3-4 bugs/week. The center might have 1 or none. He's protected the trees from those bugs and doesn't need to spray his trees for that bug.

      I might get an apple from the perimeter that has a bug, but most of the apples do not have them. And they don't have a coating of a pesticide.

    2. Re:Right, so now they have to label all food... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      There's a difference between splicing in genes from other species, or even from other kingdoms into a creature, and selective breeding. A more descriptive term would be, "Frankenstein Organisms", but they tried to make GMO sound not so bad. If you're going to put selective breeding on the same level as "genetically modified organisms" then the terms become meaningless, (and now you see why GMO is named such as to be as least descriptive and vague as possible). By your logic we might as well call "murder", "death by natural causes", moron.

      Let the label read: "Contains Genetically Spliced Organisms". Now argue that genetic splicing is the same as selective breeding, dipshit.

    3. Re:Right, so now they have to label all food... by aralin · · Score: 1

      This is what happened when EU required restaurants to post allergens contained in individual meals on the menu. Most solved it simply by claiming that all foods served contain all known allergens. If you are allergic to anything, do not eat here.

      --
      If programs would be read like poetry, most programmers would be Vogons.
  44. Fight fire with fire by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Remember what happens at the end of the Spartacus movie, when the Roman army demands that, if they only turn over their leader, Spartacus, the rebellious slaves with be spared crucifixion? In the movie, the captured thousands rise up, each claiming to be Spartacus.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FKCmyiljKo0

    Were I a bold and brave corporate executive at Kraft or a similar company, I'd solve this problem easily. Every product would get GMO content, however small the quantity and unnecessary the inclusion. Every product would then come with that Vermont-mandated GMO labeling. "I am GMO" would be on every product, making the label worthless and prosecution impossible.

    Alas, that won't happened. Corporate executives are not renown for their courage. They get to the top by avoiding risk.

    1. Re:Fight fire with fire by PPH · · Score: 1

      Label everything GMO and let the hipsters starve.

      --
      Have gnu, will travel.
  45. Great! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Now, get the fear-mongerers out of the way by asking them to prove that GMOs are harmful.

  46. Has the world gone crazy? by AndyKron · · Score: 1

    Why are they worrying about this when food containing DNA is being sold unlabeled? Has the world gone crazy? /s

  47. Re:Interesting spin because it's Vermont by rossdee · · Score: 1

    I thought VT's motto was "Feel the Bern"\

  48. Re:Interesting spin because it's Vermont by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Maine beats them all... Live free or die!

  49. Because money by currently_awake · · Score: 1

    People are willing to pay more for "Natural" foods. If they label it, they have to sell at a discount. The entire point of GMO foods is to increase profit margins, and selling at a discount ruins that. The Lie that GMO foods will end world hunger needs to die. Third world farmers can't afford GMO anything, and western farmers have their production levels limited to protect prices.

    1. Re:Because money by ChromeAeonium · · Score: 1

      The Lie that GMO foods will end world hunger needs to die

      Well that's a strawman argument. It is as false as saying that seatbelts & airbags will end all auto fatalities, and I don't think I've ever heard anyone well versed in the topic make that claim. However, just because something does not solve a problem does not imply that it does not have a role to play in the solution.

  50. Cheese? by bryanp · · Score: 1

    I notice they exempted milk and cheese from the law. It couldn't possibly be because Vermont cheese is a big deal and virtually all cheese is technically GMO now (very few cheese makers get their rennet by cutting open a calf these days). The labelling law is stupid, but if you're going to do it, don't be hypocrites about it.

    --
    "An unarmed man can only flee from evil, and evil is not overcome by fleeing from it." Col. Jeff Cooper
  51. Food Allergies kill people by currently_awake · · Score: 1

    Food Allergies require knowing what you eat. If they put peanut DNA into a tomato then people will die from eating tomatoes, not knowing it's actually part peanut. This isn't something you can see or predict. Nobody with a peanut allergy would question eating a tomato, it's an unknowable hazard.

    1. Re:Food Allergies kill people by slashping · · Score: 1

      If they put peanut DNA into a tomato then people will die from eating tomatoes, not knowing it's actually part peanut

      Sure, if the tomato is changed so that it becomes an allergen, there should be a warning about possible reactions. But that's a very specific case.

    2. Re:Food Allergies kill people by Gr8Apes · · Score: 1

      It's not a specific case, it's an example of how and where GMO can become a major problem. GMO is not restricted to "this batch" of product like most things. It is self-replicating and can be very difficult or impossible to remove from the environment once released.

      --
      The cesspool just got a check and balance.
    3. Re:Food Allergies kill people by slashping · · Score: 1

      It's not a specific case, it's an example of how and where GMO can become a major problem

      An example is a specific case. Peanut allergies are caused by a couple of very specific seed storage proteins. Even if there was genetic material transferred from peanuts to tomatoes, people would not be transferring the genes for those specific proteins. In fact, it is conceivable that GMO techniques could be used to make a peanut that didn't cause allergies.

    4. Re:Food Allergies kill people by Gr8Apes · · Score: 1

      An example is a specific case.

      Yes, and when you use "very" to qualify it, you're implying it is of minimal importance. With GMO, nothing is minimal, because it is not limited.

      --
      The cesspool just got a check and balance.
    5. Re:Food Allergies kill people by slashping · · Score: 1

      Yes, and when you use "very" to qualify it, you're implying it is of minimal importance.

      Not that it is of minimal importance, but very specific. Not only do you have to copy a peanut gene to a tomato, but you'd have to copy the very small part that encodes the specific proteins that result in allergies.

    6. Re:Food Allergies kill people by Gr8Apes · · Score: 1

      And all of that takes me back to Michael Crichton's Jurassic Park and other works. Messing around with genetic material and releasing it into the environment should be expected to have unanticipated effects, generally negative. If you don't subscribe to this viewpoint, you're a blind optimist as just about every biological manipulation we've executed in the past whether planned or accidental has been largely negative. (e.g., Kudzu, rats, tiger mosquito, snakehead fish, Asian longhorn beetle, burmese pythons, cane toads, rabbits, and Nile perch)

      --
      The cesspool just got a check and balance.
    7. Re:Food Allergies kill people by Bartles · · Score: 1

      Using GE to create hypo-allergenic peanuts is the much more likely scenario. At least for those of us that believe in science.

    8. Re:Food Allergies kill people by bingoUV · · Score: 1

      In fact, it is conceivable that GMO techniques could be used to make a peanut that didn't cause allergies.

      Exactly. So the specific GMO strain identifier should always be specified on the food labels so that peanut allergics can eat those without worrying. Peanuts can easily have millions of GMO strains while remaining "peanuts" in everyday language - without strain information it is impossible to make various judgements about its safety.

      Similarly for every other GMO product (non-GMO too should have the exact strain).

      --
      Bingo Dictionary - Pragmatist, n. A myopic idealist.
    9. Re:Food Allergies kill people by MiSaunaSnob · · Score: 1

      You do realize that people are not actually allergic to part of the Peanuts DNA... they are allergic to a protein (or similar) in the peanut...

  52. Wow. you ARE a deluded SOB. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    First the second DOESN'T mean you get to carry a gun. You get to be a Millita and you can protect your state from federal, other states or external threats. Not just carry a gun and PRETEND you're a military operative.

    Many more articles on "Teh gubmint takin our gunes!", "War On Christmass", "Black Lives Matters Are Terrorists", "Ayrabs aer Terrrists (even if they're not arabs)", "Teh Left Libruls Aer Derstroyering Amuriga!".

    When a shooting turns up "You gurta arm them there gude peepull (but not them niggers or ayrabs, right, only good christian white men)!".

    RightWing demanding interviewers thrown in jail for asking gotcha questions. How Assange and WL should be shot and nuked on sight, Snowden broiled in a steam bath for a traitor, et al.

    Where exactly IS the left wing media you speak of, and how the fuck do you claim the above to be NOT far right? HOW FUCKING FAR RIGHT ARE YOU????

    1. Re:Wow. you ARE a deluded SOB. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "First the second DOESN'T mean you get to carry a gun. You get to be a Millita and you can protect your state from federal, other states or external threats. Not just carry a gun and PRETEND you're a military operative."

      The supreme court disagrees, you useful idiot.

    2. Re:Wow. you ARE a deluded SOB. by KingSkippus · · Score: 1

      Maybe, but it was one particularly conservative Supreme Court overturning a couple of centuries of precedent. And even in doing so, that <sarcasm>bastion of liberal activism</sarcasm> Antonin Scalia had this to say in his majority opinion of the case you're using for reference (Heller v. DC):

      Like most rights, the Second Amendment right is not unlimited. It is not a right to keep and carry any weapon whatsoever in any manner whatsoever and for whatever purpose: For example, concealed weapons prohibitions have been upheld under the Amendment or state analogues. The Court’s opinion should not be taken to cast doubt on longstanding prohibitions on the possession of firearms by felons and the mentally ill, or laws forbidding the carrying of firearms in sensitive places such as schools and government buildings, or laws imposing conditions and qualifications on the commercial sale of arms.

  53. GMOs, Weeds and Herbicides by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Let's start with unsustainable agriculture:
    http://www.i-sis.org.uk/SDILA.php

    Now on to human health due to agricultural practices:
    http://www.dw.com/en/pesticide-illness-triggers-anti-monsanto-protest-in-argentina/a-17013525

    Companies, like Monsanto, have been abusing their own products and now farmers are using tons of herbicides, poisoning their workers and communities. The "weeds" are now roundup resistant. The weeds have the GMO genes from the soy; transgenic traits likely from cross pollination, that make them resistant to more herbicides.

    By knowing if a product contains GMOs, namely corn and soy, I can choose not to support the agricultural methods that bring the product to market.

  54. Golden rice? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Damn, your shilling didn't get past the first, even though very short, sentence.

    Do better next time or you'll be replaced by a cheaper shill from Korea.

  55. ASTROTURF ALERT by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Spoken like a true GMO frankenfood lobbyist.

  56. Fuck it, mark EVERYTHING as GMO+. by Chas · · Score: 0

    Seriously, mark it all as GMO-bearing. Even if there's a chance it ain't.

    Have every company do this.

    Then let the fuckers scramble to find some high-dollar "all natural" alternative or starve.

    --


    Chas - The one, the only.
    THANK GOD!!!
  57. Label Monsanto, not GMO by The+Raven · · Score: 1

    I don't give a crap if something is GMO or not... we'd have a hard time feeding the world without GMO. What I care about is if my purchase profits Monsanto or not, considering the predatory, deceptive, and sometimes downright evil acts that company has perpetrated.

    GMO isn't bad... but the unfortunate fact is that the most visible and prolific company working in GMO crops is tarnishing the science of GMO by association.

    --
    "I will trust Google to 'do no evil' until the founders no longer run it." Hello Alphabet.
  58. dreadful state of affairs by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    The most striking thing in that story was that Senate was 1 vote away from passing a bill that would *prohibit* states from setting up such labeling requirements. How on earth do those 48 "people's representatives" explain how making it illegal for people to vote in a consumer protection law is in somehow in their interest!? There's not even a pretense of proper representation now. Just shameless corruption.

  59. I would rather have truth in nations by WindBourne · · Score: 1

    Seriously, it is far more important to know WHERE your food comes from, then if it is GMO.

    --
    I prefer the "u" in honour as it seems to be missing these days.
  60. They aren't worried by CanadianMacFan · · Score: 1

    They are just going to buy off, sorry contribute to the campaigns of, a few federal politicians to get a law passed that will outlaw the labelling of whether food contains GMO ingredients. Problem solved.

  61. But whatc*kind* of GMO? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    The issue I have is that the term has become so confused in the minds of people I talk to. All selective breeding id 'GMO' -- hell, all sexual reproduction is 'genetic modification'.

    I think wr need to be more specific in the respect of (for want of a better term) xeno-genetic of cross-species modification. This is the sort of thing people are thinking of as having unpredictable consequences I bet, but legislators and ignorant lobbyists might end up banning a lot more than they mean to.

  62. Label every food product by Applehu+Akbar · · Score: 1

    "This product genetically modified using Mendelian technology"

  63. itRe:Why conceal it? by Dog-Cow · · Score: 1

    90%? 90% of who, exactly? It sure as hell isn't 90% of their customers, or they'd have a really, really small customer base now, wouldn't they? Or are these 90% just authoritarian assholes who want to force companies to do stuff, even though it doesn't affect their buying habits in the slightest?

    1. Re:itRe:Why conceal it? by PopeRatzo · · Score: 1

      90%? 90% of who, exactly? It sure as hell isn't 90% of their customers, or they'd have a really, really small customer base now, wouldn't they?

      Read 'em and weep.

      http://www.nytimes.com/2013/07...

      --
      You are welcome on my lawn.
  64. Re:Interesting spin because it's Vermont by 93+Escort+Wagon · · Score: 1

    Maine beats them all... Live free or die!

    Sorry, man, but that's New Hampshire's motto.

    --
    #DeleteChrome
  65. Warning: This watch contains quartz crystals by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    which may or may not be harmful to your chi.

  66. GM Animal Feed by Mike+Greaves · · Score: 1

    Around 90% of GM food crop yield goes into animal feed.
    Less than 10% goes into the processed foods that will be impacted by the very naive Vermont law.

    I'll leave it as an exercise for the reader to find out whether meat, milk or eggs in Vermont, which came from GMO-fed source animals, need to be labelled. You shouldn't have to think too hard to realize the answer.

    The leading global GMO-supported food chain is RoundUp-Ready Soy going into "broiler" (chicken meat) production. It has not quite 100% share of soy going into chicken production. That will not change.

    The food industry has not been "brought to it's knees" by Vermont.
    And GMO "labellers" are just GMO opponents, and are very very ignorant people.

    --
    -- Mike Greaves
  67. Under the TPP by MrKaos · · Score: 1

    Such a pro-consumer law would be viewed as an "impediment' to profit under the TPP. The interested party (the company) will be eligible for an Investor State Dispute Settlement for non conformance to the TPP. The interested party nominates a number for compensation and then the taxpayer (also the consumer) has to maintain compensation to the company (i.e. pay them) until the "impediment" (i.e. the pro consumer law) is "nullified" (i.e removed).

    Essentially the TPP makes all pro-consumer laws and protections un-affordable to the state and the taxpayer. People are free to protest why laws can't be put in place to provide those protections and politicians will respond by saying they are unaffordable. What they won't say is that they are un-affordable because they are the ones who agreed to signing away their own nations sovereignty to a third party out of their control.

    --
    My ism, it's full of beliefs.
    1. Re:Under the TPP by JesseMcDonald · · Score: 1

      You almost make the TPP sound like a good idea. Almost. Unfortunately it's all-or-nothing, and there is more than enough bad in the TPP to cancel out any good this might have done. If they were willing to break it up, however, then penalities of this sort for protectionist and populist local legislation would be ones of the parts well worth adopting.

      --
      "The state is that great fiction by which everyone tries to live at the expense of everyone else." - Bastiat
    2. Re:Under the TPP by MrKaos · · Score: 1

      Only if you think destroying your own consumer rights is a good idea

      --
      My ism, it's full of beliefs.
  68. For the same reason as Kraft by jsrjsr · · Score: 1

    Kraft recently changed its Mac & Cheese by changing it to use natural ingredients. They sold the new formulation for three months before saying anything.

  69. If nothing is wrong with GMOs, why hide it? by WillAffleckUW · · Score: 1

    From a practical level, that's the first question anyone should add.

    Revel in your Frankenfood. Make special General Mills version of Frankenberries (with added GMOs) and Booberries.

    --
    -- Tigger warning: This post may contain tiggers! --
  70. CRISPR Hot GMO Not? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Thought GMO was pretty dead with the advent of CRISPR. Just my understanding.

  71. About time. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    What's wrong with people knowing what's in their food?

    We all know that science has ALL the answers.
    But maybe our all-knowing science isn't good enough to tell if GMO foods have a deleterious effect on the human body.
    We may not know for generations...at which time it may be too late to reverse.

    Let those who WANT to eat GMO foods do so, but let those who do not want to have to opportunity to opt out if they choose.

  72. Reg. Penna. Dpt of Agr by eric_harris_76 · · Score: 1

    Or however it goes. (Or went. Don't recall seeing it lately.) This isn't the first time one state has affected a national producer.

    Oh, and there's also Texas and history textbooks.

    --
    There's no time like the present. Well, the past used to be.
  73. Nothing a few stickers couldn't fix by RubberDogBone · · Score: 1

    This GMO thing is nothing some stickers couldn't handle. Some foods, like Coca-Cola made in Mexico and ramen noodles imported from Japan, already carry extra sticker labels on the packages to allow these imported items to conform to US labeling requirements.

    This happens routinely with imported food from all over. There is no reason a similar kind of GMO label could not be developed for Vermont and make it the duty of the retailer or distributor to ensure the labels are applied. Stores too could do this as they stock the shelves. In this way, the factories don't need to change at all, and there is no need to change anything for any other states nor worry how to conform to different laws in different states. Just make stickers very cheaply in bulk and apply where an when needed.

    Problem solved.

    And oh yes, sure DO pass on the cost of the stickers and labor to apply them to the consumers. Why not? It's a cost center.

    --
    Sig for hire.