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E-Cigs Are Exploding In Vapers' Faces At An Alarming Rate (buzzfeed.com)
E-cigs are becoming increasingly popular, but are they safe enough? BuzzFeed News is reporting about accidents where e-cigs have exploded in vapers' faces. The report claims that these incidents are occurring at an alarming rate. From the report (condensed): Across the country, defective e-cigarettes -- the nicotine delivery machines that have taken over every strip mall and sidewalk, seemingly overnight -- are creating hundreds of victims like Cavins (a 63-year-old Orange, California-based family therapist who lost an eye after an e-cig device exploded in his face), people whose lives are suddenly and horrifyingly changed when their devices blow up. They are people like Thomas Boes, whose vape exploded while he was driving outside San Diego and struck him with such force that two of the three teeth he lost lodged in his upper palate; Kenneth Barbero, whose exploding device ripped a hole in his tongue; and Marcus Forzani, a 17-year-old whose left leg was charred from his calf to his thigh after a vape battery exploded in his pocket. An unpublished FDA analysis found 66 reports of e-cigarette overheating, fires, and explosions in 2015 and the first month of 2016, a number the agency calls "an underestimate of actual events."
And people say evolutionary pressure doesn't exist in modern society...
66 whole reports?! Why, we need a law immediately! Someone call Congress!
Or just criminalize them? I really don't want to pay more for health care because of other people's stupidity.
Government to the rescue!
Seriously, use a protected battery, use only one battery in the device, in low wattage devices that have short-circuit protection, and don't overcharge your battery. And don't buy the cheap shit batteries - the three bucks you save won't be worth it. It's that fucking simple.
..I've come down with a case of the vapers!
Time to mandate that they're sold in plain black packaging with a scary picture on it.
Confucius say, "Find worm in apple - bad. Find half a worm - worse."
and not the devices themselves.
That's just big pharmas FUD spreading.
Keep in mind that it's not just e-cigs that can explode in your face when smoked. The same thing can happen if you choose to smoke pole. It's a slightly different kind of explosion, but in both cases one's face can take the brunt of the impact.
This explains what brought down Flight 804.
Can't risk losing an eye, time to switch back to regular cigarettes where I can only lose a lung....
Sweet sweet irony.
The battery... I've only ever heard of them exploding or overheating with the massive, third party, batteries that go well beyond 4.8v This is the same nonsense as the "e-ciggs cause popcorn lung" fiasco. No, they don't. But if you are an idiot that heats it up to 700 degrees, you deserve what you get. I've quick smoking thanks to my ecigg, and i'm basically done using that as a crutch. THAT'S why these reports exist, follow the trail and you'll find yourself at the feet of big tobacco
I used to construct high power ( > 1000 mW ) hand-held lasers as a hobby, which has quite an active community on the Web.
As anyone in that community will tell you, a VERY high priority safety issue (amongst others) is lithium ion battery safety. We would work to figure out which brands were the safest and most reliable, make sure newbies understand the dangers of recharging and handling the batteries, and knew the best practices.
The trouble with these vapes are that the batteries are coming out of whatever crap factories in China can make them for the least expense (by cutting corners), and these crap batteries are being used by people who have not been educated about the dangers or the best practices.
Just like the "hoverboards"...
I've been vaping for about 1 1/2 years using White Cloud E-Cigs. They are made in America and are basically a cylinder battery that can't be modded. The cartiridges are also prefilled. Kinda like "Blu" but much more normal looking.
I would imagine that it's these crazy giant type batteries/vaporizers that are causing the exploding issues/hazards that are coming from all over the world. I would never touch those. A person at my work has one of these customizable ones and it's the size of a Sony Walkman from 1980. He carries two different ones of those in addition to about 3 bottles of liquid of different flavors. Too much of a hassle.
It's one thing to look at regulating these things as 'cigarettes' (which I don't agree with) but quite another in regards to their batteries. Isn't there any regulation regarding batteries? This is a particular use case only, we know of batteries that have exploded/caught fire in laptops, electric skateboards etc. I am only presuming, but isn't there any kind of regulations regarding the safety of batteries? If not that would seem relatively strange given we regulate most everything else.
Clearly this particular use case is one of the most dangerous (having it blow up in your face can't be fun), but it seems to me this isn't about the e-cig so much as the batteries these companies are using.
There's not even a link to somebody I would trust to even claim to be reporting facts in TFA.
This is why you never accept a vape from Bugs Bunny.
Does it make you happy you're so strange?
To many are also using devices that are completely sealed so if the battery does "let go" the pressure exits the easiest way. This is out the atomizer connection as it is usually only pressure fitted. One final thing about they guy who put the battery in his pocket and burned his leg. Well don't put a high energy battery in a pocket with loose metal. It shorted out and dumped all of it's energy in a split second causing his pants to catch.
There have been 66 cases reported according to the first link. 66. Out of tens of millions of devices.
This is just a typical case of control freaks in government looking for something else to get their fingers in.
..who believe big government regulation is the solution to everything.
Also LOL @ the Buzzfeed article being taken seriously.
We three Kings of Orient are; Tried to smoke a rubber cigar; It was loaded, it exploded; We two Kings...
Poorly made batteries are a problem for everybody. Think outside the box and wonder why more phones, laptops, and other ubiquitous devices that depend on high-energy batteries don't start blazing away, and whether they may start now that this cheap shit is flooding the market. It may be fun to poke at the vaper who cooks his balls, but how about the vaper who checks her vape into the luggage compartment of the airplane you're riding? ISIS will claim responsibility for your plane going down, 'cause, you know, why not - prove they didn't, but all along it was just some mislead nico-addict who thought she was doing the right thing for her health.
Besides, this takes attention away from the real harm in vaping... all that completely unregulated shit they put into that liquid. Tobacco is bad, sure, but who the fuck knows what solvents, preservatives, and fuck-knows-what goes into those little bottles that you breathe all... the... way... in.
Take it easy, Charlie, I've got an Angle...
https://www.usfa.fema.gov/downloads/pdf/statistics/v13i6.pdf
http://www.pfa.org/firesafe/CFSC_facts.pdf
http://www.tcforensic.com.au/docs/uts/essay5.pdf
Would you rather live in an apartment next to a smoker OR a vaper?
I don't get it.
I know that the first thing people will reach for is regulatory oversight, including banning them, but I remember that Underwriter's Laboratories isn't a government agency, and people are buying vaporizers from dodgy sources. Lawsuits, in this case, can only do so much I think. The companies will simply go bankrupt.
So I have to ask, as I'm a non-smoker who hasn't looked into it, are there any safety organizations that have published safety standards and are offering their guarantee mark to vaporizers that meet said safety standards?
A few stories like this making the rounds of e-cig communication lines(forums, magazines, websites), and the saying to 'get a UL listed one or you risk it blowing up!', and safety should improve.
I don't read AC A human right
3/10 on troll quality, would not recommend. Too over the top, needs a question mark in there somewhere to try and lure a response. Disappointing.
CommentBot 0.7a running with args "-module irritate,disagree -target random"
Chinese lithium batteries are exploding in people's faces. How is it news that substandard Chinese merchandise is malfunctioning?
Everybody knows that smoking kills you. The 'modern' method just does it quicker.
Tobacco industry and medical industry probably has enough shareholder overlap, so they are legally obliged to making the shareholders happy. So they have to continue making people sick or injured. Once all the cancer from tar and that crap was curbed a bit, they had to invent a new way to hurt everyone!
Most of these incidents you never get any details what the device in question actually was.
Was it a mechanical mod or similar where the user did not have the technical skills/experience to be running it in the first place (which anecdotally appears to be the majority), was it a shoddy Chinese knock-off?
I've yet to hear about a more typical temp/volts regulated device from a reputable manufacturer. I've got a very strong suspicion the vast majority of these are you get what you pay for, and know what your personal capabilities are.
This is what happens when you listen to liberals. You stop smoking real men's cigarettes and start smoking faggy e-cigarettes and get your face blown off. That is the liberal agenda. To blow your face off. Blow your face off.
This is why you DO NOT BUY CHEAP BATTERIES.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?...
This is what happens if you get a shitty 18650 without any kind of protection circuitry and/or an ecig without a vented battery compartment.
How to tell if the battery is likely to explode:
http://www.lygte-info.dk/info/...
http://lygte-info.dk/info/isMy...
tl;dr stop buying cheap shit and expecting it to withstand a 35+ amp draw.
When I went to college, it was still legal to smoke in class. The work office always had a smoke cloud clinging to the ceiling. It was all acceptable and the norm. In under a decade both these practices were illegal. Bars and other places where people went to smoke a decade later. Maybe with the push for legalization of marijuana it will be legal again.
Bic lighters have been blamed for several deaths and several injuries over the years too. The link above was in regards specifically to Bic lighters from 1979 to 1984.
>> The world doesn't need one more way for humans to kill themselves
Sure we do. Humans keep removing all sources of natural selection and thats a bad thing. Its not the job of the government to turn the whole world into nanny state and put rubber bumpers on every sharp corner.
We should let these weak, stupid people that have a habitual need to suck on an electric tit carry on and kill themselves and do the rest of the world a favor.
And all but a couple bucks of that cigarette pack are taxes, so it's not money that the tobacco industry is seeing.
My answer would be that e-cigs likely use synthetic nicotine.
I don't read AC A human right
The problem is big tobacco doesn't like competition from e-ciggs. They can't or don't seem capable of making decent e-ciggs and the mom & pop competitors are literally eating into big tobacco's market. Start looking at whose funding these studies and whose drumming up the fear mongering you'll notice it is all linked to big tobacco. Sure- there are busy bodies everywhere too propagating this FUD, but they're not the root of it. Cigarettes are worse than pot generally speaking (unless maybe your a habitual pot smoker), but e-cigarettes are better than traditional cigarettes. The small number of people relative to the numbers harmed also is telling of just how much *safer* e-cigarettes are relative to traditional cigarettes. If we have a mere few hundred or few thousand deaths from e-cigarettes it'll be far far far fewer than the more than 480,000 people in the United States along who die for traditional tobacco products.
Oh, come on, no-name lithium batteries have to fail sometime.
https://www.youtube.com/c/BrendaEM
I was smoking an e-cig while riding on my hoverboard when my Dell laptop battery exploded in my backpack.
I've yet to hear of any regulated mod (battery voltage regulator) blowing up.. only non-regulated ones. The non-regulated ones are simply a push button switch that shorts positive and negative terminals of the battery via the coil of the device.
Of course if you're coil is of so little resistance as to cause a short, the battery is going to explode.. much like jumpering the postitive and negative batteries of a car battery.
If people stopped being uninformed idiots that don't know how to use an unregulated mod, then they deserve what they get..
Or in other terms, don't stare into laser with good remaining eye.
Too little bad chemicals in the smoke, so we need another measure.
As a practicing Progressive, I think these undesirable people should all die off. Is there a way to put a bigger battery in these things?
Please stop doing big tobacco's dirty work for them, you useful idiots.
It's not rocket science. If you expose a lithium-ion battery to a high amount of heat it can explode
With this latest news, I can only imagine what would happen if a bunch of people started vaping while riding around on their hoverboards. Sounds like it'd be a blast!!
Morons are using the wrong batteries and/or buying dirt cheap gas station devices.
will undoubtedly account for 99% of these cases. There are no details in this story about what caused the batteries to explode, but I've read other articles which sometimes shed light on these cases. The guy with the leg burns kept loose batteries in his pocket with keys and coins. Another victim was a brand new vaper using a mech mod (it said he pushed the button on the bottom of the device, a tell-tale sign that it was a mech mod), and it was clear that someone else has prepared his gear and he had no idea what he was doing. In fact, I'd wager that most people with exploding batteries were mech mod users. Why mech mods still exist is beyond me. They have no protective circuitry, so if your build causes too high a draw on the battery, or the device gets stuck in the "on" position, you're going to have a big problem.
The one possibly unavoidable problem with any e-cigarette is counterfeit batteries. If you're trying to be safe and you buy Sony, Samsung or LG batteries, it can be tough to tell if they're genuine or not (I've gotten counterfeits myself through an Amazon third-party seller). If I have any doubts that a battery I'm using isn't genuine, it gets boxed and disposed of immediately. Of course, counterfeit batteries aren't only a problem for vapers, but the proximity of the device to your face will generally cause more damage than for, say, a flashlight user.
I have seen worse odds.
~500K Americans will be killed by smoking this year, ~10 million worldwide.
66 people were injured by being dumb with the only effective smoking cessation method (well 1 of 2, the other being death). Yes, they were dumb. We have EEs in here probably already explaining what you do not do with a vape.
Ban vapes!!! OMG TERRAR! BAN THEM!!
Big Tobacco is part of the Pro Cancer movement looking to ban vapes for obvious reasons.
Big Pharma is against vapes as the best they can put out is products with a lower success rate than nothing (cold turkey)
Politician often are Pro Cancer for the campaign contributions, as well as having people taxed like no one's business via something they cannot quit. Then there are the tobacco bonds.. Which this article misattributes to doing well due to low gas prices rather then the success of the Pro Cancer movement and its war on vapes http://www.bloomberg.com/news/...
So give some ad money to Buzzfeed and they will help kill millions.
Join the Pro Cancer movement and you can help kill millions. BAN VAPES! Think of the children!
These types of batteries are basically identical to those found in iPhones or any other modern device. Most are cylindrical lithium polymer. What is causing the problems is three basic things.
1) A complete lack of safety circuitry. Forget a smart battery system and gas gauging, many of the units I took apart had no safety at all (relied on the charger alone) to at most a leaky over and under voltage protection that was custom implemented. No charge or discharge current sensing and no temperature sensing. No faulty cell detection and no permenant disable for a faulty battery. Just like when Lipo batteries first hit the hobby market this means fires galore, and when enclosed, sizable explosions.
2) People use the incorrect chargers. Add to that little to no safety and it's a disaster.
3) People modify thier units without knowing what they are actually doing. They may have read a forum post or read a blog or had a friend do it. They don't realize any dangers or take any precautions.
Disclaimer: I have designed smart battery systems for products in the field. I have had failures but nothing the safety systems did not shut down before catastrophe.
There is a danger and I will warn my friends who might use one.
Pretty fucking simple shit.
If you pay close attention to the words used by the e-Cig marketing campaigns, they all go very far out of the way to say they are "less dangerous" or "less unhealthy" than cigarettes, not "safer than" or a "safe alternative" to them.
To be clear, e-Cig makers are not claiming their products are safe to use, nor that they are healthy, and are basically admitting that either their products or dangerous or that we don't know whether they are safe. Why would we want to push so hard for ubiquitous acceptance of a product that nobody says is safe?
That's how asbestos and mesothelioma became a thing.
The clue is in the summary : "left leg was charred from his calf to his thigh after a vape battery exploded in his pocket"
It's not e-cigs exploding, per say, so much as cheap & nasty chinese batteries.
Seriously. If you have any hope of recapturing your audience, you won't post garbage by Buzzfeed.
Now if only there was some way to make real cigarettes do the same thing...
-Forrest Cameranesi, Geek of all Trades
"I am Sam. Sam I am. I do not like trolls, flames, or spam."
An alarming rate would be 1,000s or 10,000s. 66 may be some, and even a significant number, but compared to the # of users of these things, I don't think its alarming. I'd be very surprised if there weren't significantly more injuries and damage caused by cigarette smoking causing fires or other accidents than this.
for some time now. It gives us a buzzy head and make us die sooner. That wasn't good enough. We figured out a way to add circuitry and potentially explosive batteries. We will now get buzzy heads and die sooner but not as soon. We promise not to be surprised when something goes badly. Is it just us or do dolphins sound like they're laughing?
"Win treats sysadmins better than users. Mac treats users better than sysadmins. Linux treats everyone like sysadmins."
The cigarette industry always advertised that there would be second-hand smokers available to the tobacco users. Smoking is a breast-feeding fantasy. The cigarette (or vape) in your mouth is the nipple; your hand against your lips is the breast; the smoke is the milk and the most important part, the second-hand smoker, is your mother. You can't breast feed alone. You can do the math.
What on earth went wrong here that we started posting Buzzfeed articles? Please go find the source that Buzzfeed plagiarized and post that instead. Thanks!
Articles like this are a heaping load of shit. I'd take them more seriously if they actually mentioned the device that was being used during each incident. They reason why is that a lot of these expolosions aren't from the device exploding, it's from the batteries inside of them. And further more, you'll find that nearly all of them are inexperienced people using mechanical or unregulated mods. Either they're using garbage batteries from Trustfire or Efest, or they're building their coils far far too low for what their batteries can handle. The other possibility is that these people aren't properly maintaining their batteries when the insulating wrapping is damaged, which risks creating short circuits inside the device and once more causing the battery inside to explode. We'd absolutely have fewer articles like this if people weren't complete morons when it comes to using 18650 batteries for vaping.
The Amarri pray for god, the Caldari pray for profit. the Gallente pray for peace, but the Minmatar pray their ships hol
As a non-smoker, I really prefer occasional battery incident now and then if this reduces the ordinary fires caused by ordinary burning tobacco products. From the smokers view, it could be different. Smoker usually dies in the fire and that's all, vaper survives and complains. If you are concerned, QUIT SMOKING, after all...
So instead of one drug dealer (cigarette shop) he turned to another drug dealer (vape shop) and now he complains his addiction hurt him.
Here is the new boss, same as the old boss.
He'll be vaping again. The addiction must be satisfied, slave.
As it turns out, making a really good battery means putting a lot of energy into a small thing. Enough energy that failure induced rapid discharge is basically an explosion.
Combining this with low-weight requirements leads to little shielding, which makes the batteries more vulnerable. Finally, lets add some heat in usual use, and we get this.
Basically the same thing happened with the hoverboards. l-ion scares me.
So the Joker went electric.
I am more afraid of second hand explosions not second hand smoke
we've got perfectly good laws already and they're going to be enforced. Also you wouldn't be making light of it if you or one of your friends or family was one of those 66.
Now, we might want some new laws that allow small businesses to safely sell vaping gear and equipment. The current laws were all written for big tobacco. They're likely to put mom & pops out of business. I'd like to see a middle ground here. We can start by properly funding the regulatory agencies so that it doesn't take them 2 years and $100 grand to review an application. You don't think this sudden push for enforcing existing laws came out of nowhere do you? Where do you think the political will to get it done came from?
Hi! I make Firefox Plug-ins. Check 'em out @ https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/youtube-mp3-podcaster/
Sounds like the real issue may be the quality of the batteries being used.
If you're smoking you at least know damn well you're engaging in dangerous behavior. If you're vaping you have no expectation that the vape pen is going to blow up in your face. The exact opposite actually. You expect it to be safe.
Hi! I make Firefox Plug-ins. Check 'em out @ https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/youtube-mp3-podcaster/
I bet it's no where near the amount of cell phones, laptops and tablets explode annually.
I equals V over R. If your battery cannot supply the amps you are asking it for, it may pop.
Now, if you'll excuse me, I have backups to corrupt.
I have to worry about 2nd hand shrapnel?!?
As a longtime tobacco user, I made the switch to vaping about 4 years ago. I agree with the above posters that speak of either cheap knock off batteries, and overly ambitious "Mods". I don't even like going into a vape store anymore and purchase anything I need online because of all the idiots toking on their drip mods with coils that they wound themselves, and that resemble the huge exhaust tips on some kids Ricer-mobile. They seem to think they everywhere they go is a cloud competition. I was grateful that vaping allowed me the opportunity to give up tobacco when nothing else worked, and as far as whether it's as harmful or not, time will tell. but common sense would dictate that inhaling something that is essentially on fire or at least smoldering is bound to be more harmful than water vapor with a little nicotine added. My bottom line is that its all about moderation, and whatever you do, you need to make sure you know what you're doing. I would bet money that every one of those 66 incidents involved either cheap knock-off hardware/batteries, or some idiot who was pushing the envelope and lost.
Shorting high current batteries with "sub-ohm" coil modifications and/or using cheap Chinese suppliers may explode. Same goes for cheap cell phones. There are many safe local companies that use quality materials.
tons of people do stupid stuff with there e-cigs including ruining them hot or at hi wattage. i mean really a battery is going to get pretty dam hot before exploding you will notice something is wrong unless your stupid.
The story reminds me of Laurel and Hardy's exploding cigar gag (Great Guns 1941). Someone should put them up on Youtube so we can all watch.
It's almost like smoking nicotine products is BAD FOR YOUR HEALTH!
missing and eye and your front teeth doesn't really slow you down from procreating. Given that your offspring would have their eyes and teeth, as e-cig explosions don't alter your genes. So you really only need to survive until they are able to take care of themselves.
“Common sense is not so common.” — Voltaire
Imagine this if you will slashdotters:
You read an article on some website about how computer programmers are causing people to get viruses that steal their bank accounts. One commenter even heard somewhere that a computer virus can infect the outlets in your house if you leave it plugged in after you catch the virus.
This is how vapers feel when they read comments where almost none of the commenters has the slightest fucking clue what they're talking about. It just sounds like someone repeating words they heard on the news from some OTHER people who had no fucking idea what they were talking about either.
I'll try to break this down:
There are many different types of vaping devices.
They all use lithium ion type batteries, some replaceable, some internal. Various battery chemistries are used, depending on desired attributes.
Most of these are regulated devices, meaning they have electronics built in to control the output power and to protect the battery. These devices fail almost never. If they do, the cause is typically an incorrectly selected battery which simply fails to provide adequate power to operate the device.
Then there are the unregulated devices. Aka mech mods. They actually have sort of an interesting history but the upshot is they are considered ADVANCED tools for people who know what they are doing. You must be well versed in Ohm's Law and battery safety to use them safely.
The problem is, well, SoCal. A bunch of hipsters on the west coast thought they looked cool and/or were sold these things by people who knew they would be perceived as "ironically cool" or something. And thus began the problems.
If you over-discharge Lion batteries with no protection, they will first heat up, then vent, then possibly catch fire especially if you continue to discharge them after they have begun to fail. If you put a spare Lion battery in your pocket with your keys and a pocket full of change, you will probably end up with a burned leg at best.
All of this can be avoided with some basic knowledge, much of which a certain class of vaper steadfastly refuses to learn, presumably because it would no longer be hip if they're following a bunch of rules.
These are the people who blow up thier batteries, that it happens in thier face sometimes is just a coincidence. They are lost causes, which the vast majority of the vaping community spends all thier time trying to simultaneously educate for all our sakes and distance themselves from.
It's like people who cut the ground prongs off every plug on everything they own because "it doesn't matter". I never trot out my qualifications normally, but here I actually can. I'm an electrician of 15 years and I can say with some confidence those people are correct right up until they are wrong. You don't need that ground until you do, and when you do, if it's not there, YOU will be the ground.
An unfortunate tiny percentage of the vaping community keeps cutting off the ground prongs, and making us all look like we can't be trusted with access to outlets.
Probably 99% of people who vape do so using regulated devices, at low power, for the sole purpose of trying to quit, or remain off of, cigarettes.
I'm not even sorry
Interestingly, at the same time this relentless fear-porn negative coverage about e-cigs is being bandied about (among other things like "vape juice is worse than cigarettes!"), millions of people are saving their own lives by switching to electronic cigarettes. The big tobacco companies do not like this one bit. Nor do governments who see billions of dollars every year in cigarette tax, nor does big Pharma, who generate massive sums off the "management" of cancer victims and others. This is why we only see a negative narrative with regards to the phenomenon.
One has only to examine the sources of the many studies for and against E-cigs to see that the negative ones - while not completely irrelevant - are largely funded by big tobacco in collusion with governments.
Even more interesting, companies like Philip Morris are developing their own proprietary vape technology even as they spend obscene amounts of money trying to convince us E-cigs are evil. It works by vaporizing actual tobacco in a traditional cigarette form factor, ensuring a transition to smokeless cigarettes while still maintaining the high prices and exclusive government approval for public sale. As always, follow the money - not the hype.
Slashdot now does the work of the anti-freedom forces and establishment busybodies? This is FUD.
Researchers at Harvard T.H. Chan School of Public Health found that the chemical diacetyl (and acetoin) is present in several vape flavors. Diacetyl is used for "butter flavor" in popcorn & candy - and over a decade ago workers at the popcorn factories began to show signs of the lung disease Bronchiolitis Obliterans, hence the name Popcorn Lung. Links were made between diacetyl and this irreversible lung disease.
There is a very real concern that breathing in vapes containing diacetyl could give uses Popcorn Lung.
Sure - we don't always need a law. But how many people know of this link - and is there a responsibility to inform them? Whose job is that?
CBS News account of the story: http://www.cbsnews.com/news/e-...
Wikipedia: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/...
I think I've met bigger cunts than you , but I am not sure.
You mean your mom?
Any counter examples? Any?
Birds are not dinosaur descendants;birds are dinosaurs, for all useful meanings of "birds", "are" and "dinosaurs"