EFF Petitioned To Investigate Windows 10 Upgrades (change.org)

An anonymous reader writes: One of the most frustrating things about the ongoing stream of stories about Windows 10 upgrades is that there seems to be no way to hold Microsoft to account. Or perhaps there is: a petition asking the Electronic Frontier Foundation to investigate has now been posted on Change.org.
The petition argues "people are being tricked or forced into upgrading to Windows 10 from their current, preferred version of Windows," and describes Microsoft's actions as "ignorantly unethical at best and malicious at worst."

Comments

Windows 10 upgrades are good

[NotInHere]

they make people hate windows. This is the first step in installing GNU + systemd.

Re:Windows 10 upgrades are good

[Anonymous Coward]

I think GNU/system===D is pretty great. It has a lot of features in common with Linux, and is partially compatible with that OS.

Re:Windows 10 upgrades are good

[flyingfsck]

Yup - GNU/Systemd Fedora is my preferred OS. Pretty rock solid.

Re: Windows 10 upgrades are good

[Anonymous Coward]

Tired of Microsoft forcing unwanted changes on your OS? Use Linux where a small clique of Redhat engineers will do it instead!

Re: Windows 10 upgrades are good

[Anonymous Coward]

Not usually one to comment on system d but.

Burn.

Re:Windows 10 upgrades are good

[ilsaloving]

Oh no, what have you done?

I like systemd just fine, but I'm still gonna call it system====D from now on cause that's just too damn funny.

Re:Windows 10 upgrades are good

[lsatenstein]

Yup - GNU/Systemd Fedora is my preferred OS. Pretty rock solid.

MINE TOO.
One year with F22 with no hic-cups. 6 mo with F23 and no hic-cups.

Re: Windows 10 upgrades are good

[Anonymous Coward]

Yeah but I hear the F35 has lots of hiccups so be cautious!

How about Just Ditching Windows?

[Anonymous Coward]

The EFF has bigger fish on the pan. And it needs you. Donate. As to windows... good riddance, will be good for you!

Re: How about Just Ditching Windows?

[Anonymous Coward]

Exactly. You hold windows accountable by not using it. If you cant do that, then your threats and complaints are empty.

Re: How about Just Ditching Windows?

[Anonymous Coward]

Like blocking ads instead of just not visiting the website.

Here is how to hold Microsoft accountable

[flacco]

- Back up your data files
- Wipe that abusive shit operating system off your machine
- Install Linux.

Don't look back.

Re:Here is how to hold Microsoft accountable

[Anonymous Coward]

Sorry. 'nix still isn't a gaming OS.

Re:Here is how to hold Microsoft accountable

[MobileTatsu-NJG]

There are a *lot* of people who would lose important software in that move. Be mindful of that if you're going to be opportunistic.

Re: Here is how to hold Microsoft accountable

[Anonymous Coward]

Whhahhhaaaaaaaaaa

Re:Here is how to hold Microsoft accountable

[houstonbofh]

Until this situation improves, if it ever does, we still need to have a Windows boot option.

As long as you use the Windows boot option, it will not improve. I have Steam on Linux, and a backlog of games to play that I bought on sale. (Note that borderlands 2 and then borderland the Pre Sequel back to back really is too much...) I will no longer spend money on games that will not run on my computer.

Re:Here is how to hold Microsoft accountable

[DaHat]

Surely systemd will soon have that missing functionality, then all will be well again.

Re:Here is how to hold Microsoft accountable

[houstonbofh]

- Back up your data files - Wipe that abusive shit operating system off your machine - Install Linux.

Don't look back.

I have had more clients ask about Linux in the past 3 months then in the past three years prior. With everything moving to the cloud, it is actually happening.

Re: Here is how to hold Microsoft accountable

[Anonymous Coward]

Pray tell, how exactly am I supposed to run all the software I need on a daily basis to, you know, actually make money and shit?

WINE isn't complete enough to handle 100% of the applications out there. Sooner or later you land up fiddling around with some "garbage" rated application, and your only choice then is to give up or dive into the source code yourself and implement all the missing pieces.

VMware Workstation and VBox have working rudimentary 3D acceleration, but it's not enough to support anything high end when running serious workloads.

ReactOS isn't Linux, but at least it's not really Windows either- not that it matters because you can't run anything significant on it in the first place.

I guess there's Apple, but they're busy running amok doing their own thing again (ie, with Metal, instead of actually writing a decent OpenGL stack and producing reasonably powerful hardware), plus they don't give a shit about backwards compatibility.

So... What is the solution?

Are you suggesting I should install Linux for... what? Browsing the internet and checking my email? Just reboot back into Windows 7 whenever I need to get some work done? What exactly does Linux solve for me, as a working professional, who needs access to a stable platform that can run a wide variety of commercial software packages? Am I just supposed to give up my freelance business and go open source because it's better to be free then to be able to actually do something with your computer?

What exactly is your point here?

Re:Here is how to hold Microsoft accountable

[houstonbofh]

I think we may have different customers. I have several that have partially switched.

Re: Here is how to hold Microsoft accountable

[Anonymous Coward]

And then find that 90% of your programs aren't available.

Re:Here is how to hold Microsoft accountable

[Anonymous Coward]

Let me know when Linux has support for the Wacom Cintiq Companion 2, all of the 3d modeling software I regularly use, and comes with free money to buy the Linux versions of the software.

Re:Here is how to hold Microsoft accountable

[Anonymous Coward]

Your solution to not being able to play the games you want is to not play the games.

Nailed it.

Re:Here is how to hold Microsoft accountable

[cfalcon]

> Linux does not run most games

STOP

"Some games are still not designed to run on Linux" is more correct. This includes the subset of games that both (a) don't have a native Linux version and (b) use OS calls that WINE doesn't fully support yet.

Microsoft Windows doesn't run your games. Your games jumped through hoops to run under Microsoft Windows.

Re:Here is how to hold Microsoft accountable

[cfalcon]

Linux is a much better gaming OS than Windows is. The developers just have to get on board with that fact. Don't mistake "most games aren't compiled for Linux" with that somehow being Linux's fault.

Re:Here is how to hold Microsoft accountable

[Anonymous Coward]

Linux does not run most games, like, say, Fallout 4. Until this situation improves, if it ever does, we still need to have a Windows boot option.

Can't one run things in Windows VMs, like say VMware?

Re:Here is how to hold Microsoft accountable

[U2xhc2hkb3QgU3Vja3M]

Borderlands 2 gives me a headache with its shitty FOV. I can play any first-person game for hours, but that one makes me want to puke after only a few minutes.

Re:Here is how to hold Microsoft accountable

[houstonbofh]

What is the motivation to write a Linux port if they will get your money anyway?

Re:Here is how to hold Microsoft accountable

[Anonymous Coward]

Exactly.

Re: Here is how to hold Microsoft accountable

[Trax3001BBS]

Clearly then the problem is grown-ass men playing video games is the problem.

Be old and be a proud game player.

I have a youtube video that has seen over 400K hits, it leaves demographics you wouldn't believe. It's a game video and the demographic that caught me eye are the ages of those that visited, there are three substantial peaks - at the ages of 36, 56, and 62. Note they take a dive at 21-30, college, a family, and life in general.

Re:Here is how to hold Microsoft accountable

[Anonymous Coward]

You know you can change that in the options, right?

Re:Here is how to hold Microsoft accountable

[Anonymous Coward]

I use opensuse 42 with KDE 5. It is far more polished and consistent than Windows 10,8 or 7.

It performs much better, is much more stable. It idles at ~400 MB of RAM, It has been 15 years since a Windows OS has done that.

Re:Here is how to hold Microsoft accountable

[Dutch Gun]

I hope there are a few more people like you that are putting your money where your mouth is so it makes my investment worthwhile. I'm ordering a new Linux development box shortly, as I don't want to mess with my primary dev machine, plus I need space to test a few distros out anyhow. It's something I've wanted to do for a while, but hadn't really committed yet.

The way you get more games on Linux, oddly enough, is to buy games that have Linux ports. At most places I've worked over my career, a non-Windows version of the game wasn't even a blip on anyone's radar. These days, a quite a few games at least have a Mac version as well, and once you've gone that far (assuming it's not a Cider "port" of some kind), it seems like a reasonably short hop to doing a Linux port as well, given that Mac is POSIX/OpenGL as well. I guess I'll find out *how* short a hop it is fairly soon.

Honestly, even as a long time Windows developer and someone who actually prefers using Windows, Microsoft's behavior toward their users has been rather disgusting with this Windows 10 update debacle. They've burned through a lot of good will with me. I mean, I never really expected for them to be saints - I'm not that unrealistic, but I didn't expect them to be quite as high-handed with their own customers. So, I guess I'll do my small part and make sure any software I write works on as many platforms as possible.

Re: Here is how to hold Microsoft accountable

[chipschap]

Are you suggesting I should install Linux for... what?

I can't answer that question for you, but for me, the answer is "to get all my work done" as I've in fact done for 15+ years. Now, 15 years ago, it was much more of a struggle. Today, there is so much software for Linux that I seldom have to look very far. Office suite, graphics, audio processing, typesetting and desktop publishing, OCR, and on and on--- everything I need to do what I do.

I know there are specialized apps and games that don't run on Linux, and I know that Wine and even VMWare are not always good solutions. I know that some people legitimately need to run Windows, or simply want to run Windows.

But I do submit that the number of cases in which the claim is made that the job can't get done on Linux is more a function of not wanting to, rather than not being able to.

Re: Here is how to hold Microsoft accountable

[chipschap]

Correct that last sentence!

"But I do submit that quite a number of cases in which the claim is made that the job can't get done on Linux is more a function of not wanting to, rather than not being able to."

Re: Here is how to hold Microsoft accountable

[Anonymous Coward]

Be old and be a proud game player.

I have a youtube video that has seen over 400K hits, it leaves demographics you wouldn't believe. It's a game video and the demographic that caught me eye are the ages of those that visited, there are three substantial peaks - at the ages of 36, 56, and 62. Note they take a dive at 21-30, college, a family, and life in general.

I'm in that 62-yo group. Pong was my first video game. I picked up PC gaming with DOOM, then Quake and still play them using Linux. Other PC favorites are Carmageddon (I play that now on my phone), The SIMS, and Postal2. On the PS3, it's Red Dead Redemption, GTA-V and PAIN.

I play because it's fun, no matter what my age. All men are actually 13-yo boys all of our lives.

Now get off my lawn.

Re:Here is how to hold Microsoft accountable

[krelvin]

- Back up your data files
- Wipe that abusive shit operating system off your machine
- Install Linux.

Don't look back.

Fantasy land...

You now can then stare at the computer and realize that none of the applications and tools use you are on your now almost completely useless workstation....

Your solution is simplistic and really not very realistic for most people even those with good technical knowlege.

A workstation is more than the OS that is loaded on it. Just replace Windows with Linux and you have a box that pretty much doesn't do anything, Just like if you loaded Windows on a new workstation.

It is the applications that you use on the OS where most of what you do takes place.

What many people find is that can't find replacements for the applications they use daily or only find limited numbers of apps which work completely different, don't offer the same options or features (even if it is a Linux version of the same application). Even after a long time of searching and trying various applications you are still nowhere close to where you were before you made that jump. And you have eaten up all that spare time you never had in the first place.

You use the right tool for the job. I have a primary workstation with Win7, it has hundreds of applications I use daily for my own business, personal use, and interacting with others. It is backed up via 3 different backup solutions to ensure I don't lose my info and is the central location for most of my info.

If you look at my servers, you won't find a winbox among them. All of them are either Linux (debian), AIX a smattering of Solaris and I still have some FreeBSD boxes for specific tasks. I don't use them for a workstation, most of them are non-gui based setup, command line.

Right tools for the right jobs.

Re:Here is how to hold Microsoft accountable

[U2xhc2hkb3QgU3Vja3M]

And what is the value to use to get a "normal" FOV? And why did the programmers mess with something that's been a default for over two decades?

Re:Here is how to hold Microsoft accountable

[houstonbofh]

I almost never boot into my Windows VMs. I did not realise it but I had disconencted the Windows hard drive in my desktop some time ago, and had not tried dual booting back to wWindows sence. (And I found out when I was upgrading my desktop hard drive! For the record, WD Purple is a slow ass drive, and WD Black is WORTH THE MONEY!)

As for the Miscrosoft plan these days... It is called "selling down goodwill" and looks good on a balance sheet for a few years. Then it catches up and often they never recover.

Re:Here is how to hold Microsoft accountable

[Gr8Apes]

For the record, WD Purple is a slow ass drive, and WD Black is WORTH THE MONEY!

Any spinning drive is slow as crap these days. SSDs all the way. I only use spinning drives for backups and mass store features.

Regarding windows VMs, I very rarely spin one up, and never for games. The reason AAA games are having a tougher and tougher time is because they expect you to drop $2K every year or two for the latest and greatest hardware/software combo so you can see that wizbang shaded shadow flicker at 60fps instead of 30 fps. Honestly, most of the games are based on how fast you notice and react. You'd be best off playing them on high end CRTs (no latency) While some think that's fun, I've been more of the "where did all the fun games go". Thank goodness for GoG and Steam (believe it or not, they're actually helping the situation even though I'd rather buy everything via GoG).

Re:Here is how to hold Microsoft accountable

[i.r.id10t]

I'd be that you can do more on a Linux box with a fresh install of the latest versions of Ubuntu, Mint, or Fedora than you can on a Windows box with a fresh install of Windows.

Re: Here is how to hold Microsoft accountable

[Anonymous Coward]

About 90 degrees. You basically want as wide as possible without getting a "fish bowl" effect. As for why, I believe it has something to do with giving a more movie-like camera effect. Dead space seems to do this well with its over the shoulder camera, but the implications are wanting to barf from the narrower field of view panning quickly around the scene.

Re:Here is how to hold Microsoft accountable

[messymerry]

I did that in '06. Best damned computational move I've ever made. I'm not lookin' back Boss,,, Actually, without corporate and government gravy, M$ would be populating the bread lines. M$: You forget who you really work for. The people that you call "CONSUMERS" are the true engine of corporate growth. YOU SERVE THE BWANKERS!!!

Re:Here is how to hold Microsoft accountable

[sjames]

On the other hand, A lot of people don't use anything that isn't replaced with something already available as part of the distro. They would be well advised to switch.

Re: Here is how to hold Microsoft accountable

[green1]

Luckily 100% of your programs have nearly exact duplicates available, that most likely work even better than their windows counterparts, and are easy to find an install with your Linux package manager.

Re:Here is how to hold Microsoft accountable

[Ol Olsoc]

Linux does not run most games, like, say, Fallout 4. Until this situation improves, if it ever does, we still need to have a Windows boot option.

Define We. You have the decision to make. You want to play your games badly enough and own one computer? Then you are Microsoft's bitch, and don't complain you made the decision to accept whatever they feel like dionog to you. Otherwise, put together a games only system for Windows 10, and some other system for anything you want any control over.

It's that simple.

Re:Here is how to hold Microsoft accountable

[Ol Olsoc]

Sorry. 'nix still isn't a gaming OS.

I remember when the Windows guys used to stick their noses in the air, and Claim that the Amiga was just a gaming machine, not suited for serious work.

How the tables have turned, the only reason to keep a windows machine is rapidly becoming as a game machine.

Re:Here is how to hold Microsoft accountable

[Ol Olsoc]

Surely systemd will soon have that missing functionality, then all will be well again.

blah, blah, blah. If you hate systemd, then who the hell is forcing you to use it on Linux? There are distros without it. More fun to be a troll though, eh?

Do you even Linux?

Re:Here is how to hold Microsoft accountable

[Ol Olsoc]

I think we may have different customers. I have several that have partially switched.

I have many that have. Windows 8 started the exodus.

Linux haters are a little like Electric car deniers. Spouting problems from 1995 as if they are happening today, while the inevitable is happening.

And if we are going to spout ancient issues, I want to talk about the piece of crap that is Windows 1.

Re: Here is how to hold Microsoft accountable

[Ol Olsoc]

Pray tell, how exactly am I supposed to run all the software I need on a daily basis to, you know, actually make money and shit?

I made a significant amount of money using OSX - what's your point?

I'll leave the shit part to you since you use Windows. That fits perfectly.

Re: Here is how to hold Microsoft accountable

[Ol Olsoc]

And then find that 90% of your programs aren't available.

Name them.

Re:Here is how to hold Microsoft accountable

[Ol Olsoc]

Let me know when Linux has support for the Wacom Cintiq Companion 2, all of the 3d modeling software I regularly use, and comes with free money to buy the Linux versions of the software.

The fucking world revolves around you apparently. If you are using a monoculture program have at it. And if Microsoft demands you will do exactly what they say. You are their bitch.

Re: Here is how to hold Microsoft accountable

[Anonymous Coward]

But that just isn't true, I hear people repeat this crap all the time, the same people that claim GIMP is a viable replacement for Photoshop or that Audacity is a viable replacement for Logic Pro. I use AutoCAD and Revit regularly as well as Solidworks, there is no decent building design and modeling package on Linux and the existing solid modelers (yes I have tried brlcad, freecad and a host of others) are not even close to comparing in terms of tools and functionality.

Yes it means I have to run Windows, but the Windows partition makes my system effectively an appliance to run those 3 programs, once it starts and I launch the program it doesn't matter what the underlying OS is. It's statements like yours that lead to people trying Linux and ultimately being disappointed.

Re: Here is how to hold Microsoft accountable

[trabby]

Blame consoles more than anything, people want to be able to see their game on the TV.

TV's are a smaller "target" area than a monitor, the viewer is sitting further back, so they reduce the FOV so there is minimal perspective distortion.

PC users of course complain about it in the port as they are sitting much closer, as they need a more open FOV.

Funnily enough though a PC game that fiddled with the norm that I first remember is Half-Life 2, with its 75 degree default.

Re:Here is how to hold Microsoft accountable

[Anonymous Coward]

Linux is a much better gaming OS than Windows is. The developers just have to get on board with that fact. Don't mistake "most games aren't compiled for Linux" with that somehow being Linux's fault.

You must not understand much about game development if you think "compiling it for Linux" is the fix for the problem. These games are designed to run on DirectX, not OpenGL. The games currently being ported to Linux are usually using some kind of wrapper to translate the DirectX to OpenGL. If the games were designed to run on OpenGL or Vulkan, then it'd only be a matter of compiler options and weeks or even months of debugging.

However, you are correct in one thing, Linux is a much better system for gaming than Windows. It's a much more resource-efficient OS.

Re:Here is how to hold Microsoft accountable

[houstonbofh]

No doubt! The Linux desktop was way in advance of Windows. Remember the 3D multi desktop cube? And as soon as Linux had the most amazing desktop of any OS, the "Flat Design" craze started... Coincidence? i think not! ;)

Re:Here is how to hold Microsoft accountable

[houstonbofh]

For the record, WD Purple is a slow ass drive, and WD Black is WORTH THE MONEY!

Any spinning drive is slow as crap these days. SSDs all the way. I only use spinning drives for backups and mass store features.

Unless you need capacity. I need a 2TB drive in my desktop between the development VMs and piles of data. And a 2TB Samgsung is $750, or almost 10 times the cost of the Black!

Agree with you on the games. Just played the Deus Ex series again with the modded upgraded graphics engine in WINE. Good Game!

Re: Here is how to hold Microsoft accountable

[Anonymous Coward]

But I do submit that the number of cases in which the claim is made that the job can't get done on Linux is more a function of not wanting to, rather than not being able to.

Economists call them switching costs and they're quite high once years have been invested into learning and working on a specific computing platform. Sometimes a particularly traumatic experience, a system crash and loss of all data for example, will motivate people to make a switch, but for the most part Mac people are Mac people, Windows people are Windows people and the Linux geeks look down their noses at all of us.

Re:Here is how to hold Microsoft accountable

[DeVilla]

Linux has plenty of good games. You just have to decide if you love the Windows exclusive games more than you hate the way Microsoft treats you. Then accept your decision. If you stick with Microsoft, it's your fault, not theirs. Several people have moved on. More will. The market is reacting.

Re:Here is how to hold Microsoft accountable

[mark-t]

That it is not Linux's fault that games aren't compiled for it doesn't change the reality of that fact, or its consequences for otherwise would-be Linux users.

Re: Here is how to hold Microsoft accountable

[TapeCutter]

I'm in the 56 group, arcade Pong was also my first video game (circa 1970). I picked up PC gaming with Sopwith, Buck Rogers, Doom, etc.

My wife is in the same group, her first game was internet bridge, after a very long while I convinced here to try World of Tanks, she was hooked in the first hour.

Re: Here is how to hold Microsoft accountable

[Anonymous Coward]

-Real MS Office, on the local machine for ITAR compliance, not online, not Open/Libre Office which -mostly- works (until you need it to).
-LabVIEW FPGA (targets Xilinx tools, LV doesn't offer Linux and it is closed off to you hacking it into working)
-MS Exchange/Outlook, by policy I can't hit my corp email from unallowed clients. Fortune 10 company, short of CEO title, no one is changing policy
-LTSpice, we have a healthy investment in LTSpice models, scripts, etc
-Visio, tied into numerous other tools via custom code that there is no Linux version of...

That's 90% or more of my computer time - no linux version to move to

Re: Here is how to hold Microsoft accountable

[Waccoon]

What if the software you want isn't in your distro repository? The binary compatibility issue is my #1 problem with Linux, has been for a very long time, and it's something that no Linux fan wants to address. Until that's resolved, Linux isn't going mainstream -- period.

But I do submit that the number of cases in which the claim is made that the job can't get done on Linux is more a function of not wanting to, rather than not being able to.

Power users don't understand this, but everyone else does. No matter how many times Linux people insist that a distro is perfectly usable by normal people, it's totally inevitable that you'll have to drop to a shell prompt sooner or later to install something or get it working. Any time that happens, it's a function of "not being able to."

Re: Here is how to hold Microsoft accountable

[Anonymous Coward]

Dia kicks Visio's ass

Office is a bloated pile of shit.

Outlook is the worst part of the worse office suite.

LTSpice? LAWL

Re: Here is how to hold Microsoft accountable

[Anonymous Coward]

People who work usually care very little about their computers. To me, they're just machines. I'm sorry you invest so much commitment and emotion into them, it means you don't have much in the way of human affection. I don't care about windows, I don't care about ios, I don't care about linux. I care about getting stuff done and spend my time away from the keyboard. There is a life out there and it can be beautiful. But I don't expect an antisocial nerd to understand this. Personally I think you should all be carted away to some remote island so you can play with your machines and stop being a nuisance to us Real People.

Re: Here is how to hold Microsoft accountable

[Anonymous Coward]

All major distros have adopted/had it forced upon them. However, the issue isn't over. systemd is continuing to make changes incompatible with POSIX and then going round trying to strong-arm other projects to adopt the systemd way of doing things and raft of ridiculous gnome dependencies that go with it. The issue isnt that there are still a few brave hold outs, it is that systemd is polluting and corrupting the whole ecosystem. Fuck systemd and all its nazi developer scum.

Re:Here is how to hold Microsoft accountable

[Bob_Who]

You may be onto something: This is how Microsoft intends to motivate its customers from desktop to their improved os+cloud. I wonder when the clouds part for that re-genesis...

Re:Here is how to hold Microsoft accountable

[dbIII]

plus I need space to test a few distros out anyhow.

A 60GB SSD will give you enough space for about eight of them.

Re:Here is how to hold Microsoft accountable

[dbIII]

Funny thing is when MS Windows 7 came out with those little window snapshots instead of just icons is that it made me think of the Enlightenment Window Manager doing that in 1997.

Re: Here is how to hold Microsoft accountable

[dbIII]

claim GIMP is a viable replacement for Photoshop

For most people faced with having to actually pay for Photoshop it most definitely is and those extra features don't seem to matter so much any more. How many people actually need to do colour separations to prepare for professional printing these days? Do you really want to spend enough to buy a whole new PC just to crop photos for personal use when other software can do the job?

Besides, don't "real" graphic designers use Macs anyway which renders this petty Win vs Linux tactic meaningless?

use AutoCAD

Yes, I've used it as well, from version 1.2 (on two floppy disks) onwards. It's funny how that went from the cheap option to run on PCs instead of on *nix workstations to just about the only game in town for a while. Now there is qcad, some dassualt thing and all the rest.

There are people in my workplace that like an old version of AutoCAD from before a major interface change. We run it in linux under WINE because it will not run in Vista/Windows7 and later. There's some annoying 16 bit stuff in there that prevents it from starting on a 64 bit MS Windows.

Re:Here is how to hold Microsoft accountable

[Anonymous Coward]

Meh, if it doesn't work without problems in wine then it will probably not work without problems on Windows 10.
I still keep a Windows 2000 machine around to be able to use some measurement equipment. If I intend to use it on a modern machine I will try an emulated environment on Linux next time, newer versions of windows failed pretty hard.

I'm starting to feel the same way about other software as I feel about games.
If it is a system exclusive release I will avoid it as far as it is possible.
System exclusiveness is anti-competitive marketing bullshit for platforms that can't compete on their own merits.

Re: Here is how to hold Microsoft accountable

[Anonymous Coward]

No, heavy Linux users that actually play real games still use Windows. Hardware is expensive, opinions are free.

Re:Here is how to hold Microsoft accountable

[Anonymous Coward]

There are a *lot* of people who would lose important software in that move. Be mindful of that if you're going to be opportunistic.

And they didn't lose anything in the move to Windows 10?

My father lost his touch-pad driver and malware scanner (replaced my Microsofts own, of course). My brother had to spend a couple of hours fixing the worst problems.

Re:Here is how to hold Microsoft accountable

[Anonymous Coward]

Yeah yeah, just reinstall, fixes everything. Until the next distro switches to systemd, then reinstall again.

It used to be that reinstalling was the solution for Windows problems.

Re: Here is how to hold Microsoft accountable

[Anonymous Coward]

Sounds like something that your place of work should pay for a separate PC for you to use, instead of forcing you to run Windows on your own computer.

Re:Here is how to hold Microsoft accountable

[Anonymous Coward]

Whoa, dude, you found a Wacom device that doesn't have Linux support?

Last time I've managed to get one without Linux support was in 1998 (a serial (RS232) PenPartner), every Wacom device I've owned since has had great Linux support.

Re: Here is how to hold Microsoft accountable

[Ol Olsoc]

All major distros have adopted/had it forced upon them.

So don't use a major distro. Go to Distrowatch and find one you like out of the hundreds there. Or roll your own, and be master of your domain.

If it gets really bad, use Windows 10...................

Re:Here is how to hold Microsoft accountable

[Anonymous Coward]

Oh no! Someone pointed out a flaw in Linux! Well...but....Linux has no flaws, so they're just using their computer wrong!

Re:Here is how to hold Microsoft accountable

[Ol Olsoc]

Yeah yeah, just reinstall, fixes everything. Until the next distro switches to systemd, then reinstall again.

It used to be that reinstalling was the solution for Windows problems.

Yeah yeah, I've never had to reinstall any Linux system for any problems related to systemd. Sometimes I've installed a different distro for experimentation.

Hell, I even have applications that I have to use that depend on the poster child for all that is wrong with systemd - PulseAudio. Despite early issues that are long cured, I'm not having issues with either PA or systemd now.

Recently I've taken to working with Ubuntu Mate. Good interface, and so far works great. (also have UMate on an R-pi, so a little consistency is nice) I have a few programs like Outpost and Soundmodem that appear to work better in Linux than in Windows - I have them on both OS's.

Re: Here is how to hold Microsoft accountable

[Cro Magnon]

All major distros have adopted/had it forced upon them.

So don't use a major distro. Go to Distrowatch and find one you like out of the hundreds there. Or roll your own, and be master of your domain.

If it gets really bad, use Windows 10...................

Until Win10 starts using systemd! :eek:

Re:Here is how to hold Microsoft accountable

[Ol Olsoc]

Whoa, dude, you found a Wacom device that doesn't have Linux support?

You think dude has ever used Linux?

Speaking of driver support, I was outfitting some computers for a radio application. The laptops needed a serial to USB dongle attached. They were also dual boot to demo Linux versions of the programs we were using.

We used the Staples brand, because it has lights to indicate serial activity.

One laptop was being a nuisance. It set up great on Linux, but not on the Windows side. Finally I took a close look at the adapter. It looked exactly the same, kind of a long smoed transparent case. But the model number was different.

So I looked it up. There were no Windows drivers for it any more, nor were any going to be offered.

Turns out it was an adapter from an old Palm Plot type device. It looked like the new ones physically, so someone threw it in the box with the new dongles.

The experience taught me to laugh when people bloviate about lack of driver support. I haven't had that issue with Linux in the last ten years. I have had that problem in droves with Windows Vista, from the same era.

Re:Here is how to hold Microsoft accountable

[Anonymous Coward]

Better make that other system something other than Linux because otherwise you are just going to be Linus's bitch.

Re: Here is how to hold Microsoft accountable

[Anonymous Coward]

Let me guess, Dia kicks Visio's ass because it has more features.
Office is a bloated pile because LibreOffce/OOO has less features.
Outlook is the worst compared to some dream mail client that only exists in your head and only does exactly what you want (but missing a lot of what everyone else wants).

Re:Here is how to hold Microsoft accountable

[cfalcon]

Sure, but claiming Linux isn't a gaming OS is like claiming the Wii-U isn't a gaming console. It's not true at all, just because less games are made for it than another option. All the phrasing like "Linux doesn't run games" implies that something is wrong with Linux- and that influences perception.

Re:Here is how to hold Microsoft accountable

[Gr8Apes]

If I needed all that, I'd buy 2 1TB SSDs. If your VMs and data are truly needed often, then there's no reason to wait on even a black drive. Black drives are still slow, especially if you compare them to 10K or 15K drives. But the noise and power draw make the couple of hundred extra spent on SSDs worth it. (BTW, last time I priced a 2TB black drive it was running $120 on sale)

I managed to drop all my work requirements to a 500GB RAID0 pair of SSDs on my desktop, with VMs running off of a separate 500GB 850. I have a couple of other older SSDs floating about, but those are used for testing OSes and stuff. I was considering adding 2 more drives to the RAID 0 set, not to increase size but to speed it up, but found that for my main tasks I'm looking to speed up I'm CPU bound because those are single threaded and disk I/O is no longer the bottle neck.

Re: Here is how to hold Microsoft accountable

[chipschap]

No matter how many times Linux people insist that a distro is perfectly usable by normal people, it's totally inevitable that you'll have to drop to a shell prompt sooner or later to install something or get it working. Any time that happens, it's a function of "not being able to."

You make a good point, and perhaps those of us who are long-time Linux users underestimate or don't remember how long it took us to become proficient.

But ... when something doesn't work on Windows ... does the "normal" user know what to do? They don't drop to the shell because they don't know what that is and, on Windows, they would have real fun even trying to find out how to get a shell prompt.

Re: Here is how to hold Microsoft accountable

[ilsaloving]

The thing is, the parent has a fair point.

Switching OSes is not *just* about switching OSes. You also have to deal with all the applications that you were running on the previous OS. Some packages have equivalents. Most don't.

If you've already made a significant software investment on the old platform, switching can be very difficult depending on time, costs, or just plain inclination.

Sometimes you can use a stopgap solution such as running the previous OS in a VM, but it's rarely as easy as just switching.

(And yes, I'm ignoring piracy as a viable option)

Re:Here is how to hold Microsoft accountable

[mrchaotica]

On the contrary, games are designed just as much for OpenGL as they are for Direct3D. PS4 is just as much of a "first class" platform as Xbox One is (in contrast to all PC platforms -- Mac, Linux and Windows -- which are second-class afterthoughts).

Re: Here is how to hold Microsoft accountable

[lsatenstein]

Are you suggesting I should install Linux for... what?

I can't answer that question for you, but for me, the answer is "to get all my work done" as I've in fact done for 15+ years. Now, 15 years ago, it was much more of a struggle. Today, there is so much software for Linux that I seldom have to look very far. Office suite, graphics, audio processing, typesetting and desktop publishing, OCR, and on and on--- everything I need to do what I do.

I know there are specialized apps and games that don't run on Linux, and I know that Wine and even VMWare are not always good solutions. I know that some people legitimately need to run Windows, or simply want to run Windows.

But I do submit that the number of cases in which the claim is made that the job can't get done on Linux is more a function of not wanting to, rather than not being able to.

Aside from LibreOffice, I found two other products that perform as well as MS Office. Cost Effective writing is a joy without worrying about Windows and MS Office costs. By the way, I do tip the authors of software I use and for which I recognize as "worthwhile".

Re: Here is how to hold Microsoft accountable

[Anonymous Coward]

Fuck you, ya old bastard!

Re: Here is how to hold Microsoft accountable

[Anonymous Coward]

Tux Racer only qualifies as a "game" if you're five.

Re: Here is how to hold Microsoft accountable

[Anonymous Coward]

Well if you like your Amiga so much, why don't you marry it? Then you can fuck it and have little Atari babies or some shit. You're old and should feel old for being old.

Re: Here is how to hold Microsoft accountable

[Anonymous Coward]

He named them and you shut the fuck up. About damned time! Linux is not the panacea you guys claim it is. I'm also adding autocad to the list. Nope, kicad, freecad, eaglecad are not acceptable substitutes.

Re: Here is how to hold Microsoft accountable

[Anonymous Coward]

Ah yes. Going with the tried and true conservative argument that the OP is lying about using Linux. I mean it couldn't possible be because you're wrong...

Re:Here is how to hold Microsoft accountable

[Anonymous Coward]

lmao. That's the dumbest comment I've seen on /. in a long time. Save for issues related to interoperability, let's see your suggestions for just how much more you can do with a fresh install of those distros that you can't do with Windows. And for the record, I reverse engineer software across a wide landscape of architectures, so I'm in more operating systems than you can shake a stick at. I just think what you said was approaching full-retard. Let's see your specifics.

Re:Here is how to hold Microsoft accountable

[david_thornley]

Excuse me? GP's software setup does revolve around him. Neither you nor I are qualified to tell him what he should do about it. You want him to move off Windows to put pressure on Microsoft. He wants to get work done without additional hassle and expense. The best you can offer him is that, if he goes to a lot of additional work and expense, he might be able to put some small influence on MS that might pay off someday. You don't even seem to have a plan other than "move off MS Windows and see what happens".

Re:Here is how to hold Microsoft accountable

[Ol Olsoc]

Better make that other system something other than Linux because otherwise you are just going to be Linus's bitch.

F8unny, but Linux never went full surveillance on me, so says wireshark.

Re: Here is how to hold Microsoft accountable

[Ol Olsoc]

The thing is, the parent has a fair point.

Altogether too many users seem to think that there is a one size only wrench and one size only is what it shall forever be.

I use the best tool for the job. Sometimes that is OS X, and software I cannot get on any other platform. Sometime it is Linux, when it's either no other platform for the software, or I need better security than Windows. And if there is no other option - then Windows.

But as I said, it appears that most computer users act like the locals down at corner gas, and argue like it's Ford versus Chevy.

Are you saying that all Windows software is markedly superirm, and in no case can be performed by another platform? That software that is not on Windows is inferior? Because that's what so many here seem to believe.

That outlook by the away - is wrong.

Re: Here is how to hold Microsoft accountable

[Ol Olsoc]

Fuck you, ya old bastard!

You'd never go back to sheep.

Or you could be like me, and buy the computers you need. I play games, and if I need a Microsoft platform I use that. I won't put anything else on it though.

Re: Here is how to hold Microsoft accountable

[Ol Olsoc]

Well if you like your Amiga so much, why don't you marry it? Then you can fuck it and have little Atari babies or some shit. You're old and should feel old for being old.

You mad, bro?

Re: Here is how to hold Microsoft accountable

[Ol Olsoc]

I mean it couldn't possible be because you're wrong...

Not for that reason I can't.

Re: Here is how to hold Microsoft accountable

[Anonymous Coward]

U.r.id10t

Re:Here is how to hold Microsoft accountable

[Ol Olsoc]

Excuse me? GP's software setup does revolve around him. Neither you nor I are qualified to tell him what he should do about it.

I'm not telling him what to do about it - you must have me confused with someone else. I did tell him that if he had to use a Windows only program (I wrote monoculture because the same holds true for OSX and Linux - he was beholden to that OS, and had to jump through any hoops they demand. Their bitch, as it were.

You deny that?

You want him to move off Windows to put pressure on Microsoft.

Once again, not me. I have all three platforms in use. I do not like the Windows ecosystem, so my Windows machines - one W10 Dell, and an iMax running W7 do not have anything other than the very few programs I need, and nothing personal. They get booted when I need them, then shut down when I'm done.

And if you want to talk about being somoene's bitch, some of the programs I have to use for Linux require PulseAudio, so I have no choice about systemd - I don't find it problem, but some do.

He wants to get work done without additional hassle and expense.

Okay - all decisions a person has to make to decide if they are going to accept Windows and it's issues.

The best you can offer him is that, if he goes to a lot of additional work and expense, he might be able to put some small influence on MS that might pay off someday. You don't even seem to have a plan other than "move off MS Windows and see what happens".

Once again, you seem to be confusing me with someone else.

Make no mistake, I find Windows 10 to be a decent OS, but it's telemetry and other invasive features have me determine that is a steaming pile of shit.

So for the couple programs that I have to have, but are only on Windows I do have the capability, but Microsoft's telemetry doesn't get much from my setup. The insane thing around this place is that being fluent in three operating systems, and using them on a daily basis is considered a bad thing. As I said before, if you want Microsoft only, you will take what they give you.

Re: Here is how to hold Microsoft accountable

[Anonymous Coward]

For most people faced with having to actually pay for Photoshop it most definitely is and those extra features don't seem to matter so much any more.

No that isnt the case "for most people", not at all. In fact that is exactly why Photoshop is the incumbent in the industry.

Do you really want to spend enough to buy a whole new PC just to crop photos for personal use when other software can do the job?

If that is all you are doing the MS Paint is a viable replacement for Photoshop and quite frankly you're an idiot if you're paying for Photoshop just to do that, but this is a use case you are just imagining, nobody is buying Photoshop just to do that.

Besides, don't "real" graphic designers use Macs anyway

No.

Now there is qcad, some dassualt thing and all the rest.

You don't seem very familiar with it despite your claim, QCAD isnt even 3D so most definitely *not* even close to being a viable alternative! And "some dassault thing"? Definitely doesn't sound like you know what you're talking about in terms of being somebody capable of suggesting alternatives.

Re: Here is how to hold Microsoft accountable

[Anonymous Coward]

"But I do submit that quite a number of cases in which the claim is made that the job can't get done on Linux is more a function of not wanting to, rather than not being able to."

I would love to have a really good open source CAD program.

Something well designed that leaves AutoCad and Visio in the dust, with a good graphical interface that also functioned as an engineers notebook.

Something with a decent scripting and/or automation language, not TCL or anything PERL or LISP or BASIC-based, or other antiquated garbage created by inexperienced people that don't understand programming languages.

I don't need 3d anything. 2d is fine. We're basically talking about software technology from the 1980's, except for the automation language.

I would even love to write that program, if I didn't have to pay the Bills.

Until that happens, I use Windows because I have to.

Re: Here is how to hold Microsoft accountable

[Anonymous Coward]

Linux is already mainstream. From the smallest devices to the largest, in space and on Mars.

List some issues with binary compatibility.

It has been at least 12 years since I had to use a command prompt. I choose to use it because it is faster and has more features than any GUI available.

Fuck, I had to use a command prompt in Windows 10 the other day.

Re:Here is how to hold Microsoft accountable

[Anonymous Coward]

Their bitch, as it were.

And you don't have the ability to make your point without the infantile characterization? Now respond to this, bitch :P

Re: Here is how to hold Microsoft accountable

[Anonymous Coward]

For *most* people photoshop is overkill.

So is GIMP.

Very few people use 10% of the features in either of them.

They are niche programs.

Re: Here is how to hold Microsoft accountable

[Anonymous Coward]

Dia is better, period.

All I need from an email client is to send and receive email. Outlook sucks at that and adds unneeded nonsense.

You would be less angry if you stopped being MS's little bitch

Re: Here is how to hold Microsoft accountable

[Anonymous Coward]

How many Windows users use Autocad?

0.00001%?

Re: Here is how to hold Microsoft accountable

[dbIII]

If that is all you are doing the MS Paint is a viable replacement for Photoshop

Indeed it is for many.
Need a few more features and then it is not enough but GIMP is enough.
Need the stuff that is only in photoshop and that's what you need, but most people don't need those features.

Re: Here is how to hold Microsoft accountable

[dbIII]

A lot of technical drawing is not 3D loser, thus qcad is on the list along with things that can do 3D for when constructive solid geometry and similar is required.
Would you use a 3D tool to draw a map? If so you are going to waste a lot of time for no gain.

Re:Here is how to hold Microsoft accountable

[Anonymous Coward]

I would love to, but I have thousands of dollars in software that do not work on Linux and there is not high quality equivalent, not to forget my games for my free time. In fact I am starting to wnoder about not using Linux anymore at work.. know why? Because I work developing high level real time graphics for medical imaging and all the fanatism in the kernel against NVIDIA is risking to push away the only decent graphics solution. Serious companies see that behavior as ared sign and already start dropping support for linux on their plans. In their arrogance the kernel fundamentalists prefer linux to not have good graphics (no.. 30% of what the same harware achieve on windows is not decent) than to have proprietary drivers.

They can drown in their fanatism and arrogance, that is the reason Linux will NEVER be a major contender for anything other than backend server, that comming from someone that work with linux since 2001 and simply love the work environment it provides.

Re:Here is how to hold Microsoft accountable

[Anonymous Coward]

False, the kernel group fights against the only high quality implementations that allow good gaming in linux, a.k.a NVIDIA proprietary drivers. All the open drivers are simply CRAP and cannot even remotely match the performance the same hardware gets on windows, while NIVIDIA provides performance within 2-3% of windows. but... the fanatics fight against anyone that is not PURE FREE!!!!

Linux will never be taken seriously for alot of stuff while the fanatism about FREE remains. Freedom also encompases the freedom to ahve somethign PROPRIETARY.

Re: Here is how to hold Microsoft accountable

[Anonymous Coward]

For me, there are more Linux games available that I want to play than I'll ever hope to be able to play. So excluding games that only run on Windows/Mac isn't that much of a loss in my case, even though I do agree that I'm unable to play some games that I'd probably buy otherwise, such as StarCraft 2 and the new Doom game.

Re:Here is how to hold Microsoft accountable

[Anonymous Coward]

who cares

Re: Here is how to hold Microsoft accountable

[allo]

Please ...

most people who cry photoshop isn't replacable, cannot actually use more than 1% of the functions without ruining their images. And like 80% are possible with gimp/krita.
People who REALLY need photoshop are rare, and they are skilled enough to achieve the same with a combination of other programs, if photoshop is not available. Who still needs PS (and if only, because its all in one, he learned this and really uses the obscure functions) can still stay with windows or use a mac. But 99% of the users do not need PS.

Re: Here is how to hold Microsoft accountable

[Anonymous Coward]

I hope you're not actually trying to be serious now. If tux racer was all there was then you'd have a point, but that has never been the case.

Re: Here is how to hold Microsoft accountable

[Anonymous Coward]

The performance wouldn't be good enough in a vm (with a few exceptions). You can run some windows only games in wine, but personally I simply don't bother buying games that don't work on Linux.

Re:Here is how to hold Microsoft accountable

[david_thornley]

I was primarily reacting to "The fucking world revolves around you apparently.", which is really, really unhelpful. I'm not arguing about facts, but I don't think your attitude towards what others do is good.

Re:Here is how to hold Microsoft accountable

[Ol Olsoc]

I was primarily reacting to "The fucking world revolves around you apparently.", which is really, really unhelpful. I'm not arguing about facts, but I don't think your attitude towards what others do is good.

Here's what I am saying,

Do my computer habits dictate yours? Do the Programs I use allow me to demand what you use?

Furthermore, someone with a specific OS requirement making a comment that they have that requirement with the insinuation that it is a dumb concept for others to move to a different platform is completely useless.

It's like when Windows updates, and a number of clients have problems, and some others come on to the group to gloat that they've never ever had a problem with Windows - that's just a useless statement. It's so very similar to the monoculture argument.

Because I've seen enough of these monoculture arguments that after a while, they aren't positive exclamations, they come across as whining.

Re: Here is how to hold Microsoft accountable

[Anonymous Coward]

What, you never have to do that or hack the registry on Windows to get things working?

Maybe you've just been lucky.

Re:Here is how to hold Microsoft accountable

[Anonymous Coward]

Install any version of retail Windows.

Try to play a DVD without having to go to third party websites.

You get that shit out of the box with most Linux distros.

Same with 99% of hardware drivers.

Re:Here is how to hold Microsoft accountable

[peawormsworth]

Sorry. 'nix still isn't a gaming OS.

Windows is a toy?

Re:Here is how to hold Microsoft accountable

[Anonymous Coward]

Nah, I just haven't bothered to see if Linux has adequate multi-touch, properly ignores touch while the pen is in sense range, handles jitters and skips (last time I checked, it didn't do so well). And really, it comes down to preferring to use professional tools that work, rather than figure out which half dozen Linux programs might do what I want, maybe. I don't care about what OS I'm using, I care about my workflow.

There's only one way to fix Microsoft

[JustNiz]

It boggles my mind how people rightly complain about this and all the other abuses by Microsoft, then go right out and buy another PC with Windows.Self-inflicted much?

Jeez people just vote with your wallet already.

Re:There's only one way to fix Microsoft

[Anonymous Coward]

"Oh my gosh!! How do I have any control over this giant money-fueled monster?!?!"

"I know! I'll go buy another Windows machine!"

Re:There's only one way to fix Microsoft

[Anonymous Coward]

It's called not having other options. Most PCs come pre-installed with Windows, and most people just want a system that works without a lot of technical know-how. Sure, people could install Linux, but most people can't or won't because they just can't figure it out or need some piece of software that's only available on Windows (Office, CAD, Photoshop, etc.) Sure, people could go out and buy a Mac, but not everyone can afford that after purchasing their current PC.

Telling people their issues are self-inflicted just makes you look like an asshole. It doesn't solve the problem of Microsoft abusing customers who (rightly) feel that have no other choice without either becoming a computer expert, or spending an arm and a leg for a Mac..

Re:There's only one way to fix Microsoft

[Anonymous Coward]

Yeah, well anytime I can run all my PC games on another platform, you just let me know.

Re:There's only one way to fix Microsoft

[Anonymous Coward]

It's called not having other options. Most PCs come pre-installed with Windows, and most people just want a system that works without a lot of technical know-how. Sure, people could install Linux, but most people can't or won't because they just can't figure it out or need some piece of software that's only available on Windows (Office, CAD, Photoshop, etc.) Sure, people could go out and buy a Mac, but not everyone can afford that after purchasing their current PC.

Telling people their issues are self-inflicted just makes you look like an asshole. It doesn't solve the problem of Microsoft abusing customers who (rightly) feel that have no other choice without either becoming a computer expert, or spending an arm and a leg for a Mac..

1. buy a mac pc or pc with linux preloaded.
2. pretty sure that software companies will follow the money.

Re:There's only one way to fix Microsoft

[houstonbofh]

The do not sell Linux PCs at Best Buy and Sam's club. That makes it beyond a lot of people.

Re: There's only one way to fix Microsoft

[Anonymous Coward]

Currently, modern Linux desktop distros are by far easier to install that Windows, and dont require any faffing about with third party drivers just to get the system working properly... like Windows does.

"After spending all their money on cheap booze and drugs, users just can't afford to go out and buy food, and telling them they're doing something wrong just makes you sound like an asshole".

They're wrong. Besides, you're under the misconception that you still own Windows. Windows 10 owns you, your data, and your eyeballs. Sucker.

Re:There's only one way to fix Microsoft

[Anonymous Coward]

But in the mean time I will DIE if I can't play until it gets ported to Linux.

DIE!!!

Re:There's only one way to fix Microsoft

[geekmux]

It boggles my mind how people rightly complain about this and all the other abuses by Microsoft, then go right out and buy another PC with Windows.Self-inflicted much?

Jeez people just vote with your wallet already.

People DID vote with their wallet. That's why they're running a (cheap) Windows PC.

Wake up.

Re: There's only one way to fix Microsoft

[Anonymous Coward]

What are you talking about? I've seen plenty of Chromebooks at big box retailers...

Re:There's only one way to fix Microsoft

[Anonymous Coward]

Try buying a computer without windows... it's a hassle and limits your options quite a bit...

My private laptop is a Macbook pro running linux (don't even have osx on the disk)..
For my work-laptop it's a dell, but the only model that matched my requirements only came with windows so no option in just buying the hardware and installing linux.. The windows-tax is crazy! Would like a law that would make it illegal to forcefully bundle hardware and software together.. If the hardware is capable of running more than one OS it must be possible to buy it without any bundled OS.

Re:There's only one way to fix Microsoft

[JustNiz]

YOU wake up.
Windows costs money.
Linux is free.

Re: There's only one way to fix Microsoft

[houstonbofh]

And Androids that are also Linux based. But not a true Linux desktop without work, which was my point.

Re:There's only one way to fix Microsoft

[I75BJC]

Others have declined the M$ EULA/agreement and petitioned for a refund for the M$ O$ successfully. Buy the PC you want; decline the M$ 0$; install what you want and wait for your refund. Others have done this and documented the process for others to follow. Just to be safe, you can remove the original disk and use another (faster or flash/solid state) drive. Just Do It!

Re:There's only one way to fix Microsoft

[Anonymous Coward]

That sounds pretty backwards. If you could afford a Mac, why would you change the OS? When OS X is pretty much 'unix' with Apple's Quartz windowing system.

My last laptop came with Windows 8.1, which was pretty unusable, and so I wiped that disk and installed PC-BSD. It's served me well - except for the WiFi

Re:There's only one way to fix Microsoft

[geekmux]

YOU wake up. Windows costs money. Linux is free.

Oh, so cost is what is really holding the Year of the Linux Desktop?

Yes, that must be it, because this is the first year Linux has been free, right?

Give me a break. Unfortunately, now Microsoft is going to try and compete with that price tag, and even with all of the complaining about telemetry, I'm willing to bet the masses STILL won't convert to Linux.

And my original comment was targeted towards the actual competition out there, which is the (considerably more expensive) OSX option.

Re:There's only one way to fix Microsoft

[U2xhc2hkb3QgU3Vja3M]

How about you get a taller computer tower so you can have Linux on the floor?

Re:There's only one way to fix Microsoft

[HiThere]

While true, this *does* fall squarely within the purpose of the EFF. But perhaps the people asking for this should join, so they can ask as members rather than just as outraged victims.

The thing is, while this is clearly within the area that the EFF was formed to address, almost none of their membership is strongly affected. And they don't have enough clout to address every abuse, so it's reasonable that they should pay most attention to those issues that most directly affect their members. And this is a request that they support those who are supporting one of their major opponents.

FWIW, I *am* a member, but I'd be more interested in seeing them address abuses of the RIAA/MPAA, even though I never acquire recordings or movies anymore. And I'd be even more interested in seeing them do what they could to ensure the freedom of APIs. Something I took for granted until those bastards at Oracle convinced or bribed a judge to say they could be copyright. Idiocy or corruption? It's hard to tell. My guess tends to be corruption, but I acknowledge that it *is* only a guess.

Re: There's only one way to fix Microsoft

[Anonymous Coward]

Let me know when a Chromebook can actually run software. No, browsing the web, sending mail or writing a letter doesn't count.

Re:There's only one way to fix Microsoft

[JustNiz]

I'm not even sure I know what this mythical "Year of the Linux Desktop" is even meant to be so I'm probably not the best person to ask about it. I can only speak from my own actual experience that I've been using Linux as my desktop just fine for years now, and I have found I am far more productive with Linux as a desktop than Windows.YMMV I guess.

Sorry but I can't respond to the rest of your rant because its not clear to me what point you are even trying to make.

Re:There's only one way to fix Microsoft

[Anonymous Coward]

Jeez people just vote with your wallet already.

I suspect that's what is behind Micosoft's push of Windows 10.

Re:There's only one way to fix Microsoft

[thegarbz]

It boggles my mind how people rightly complain about this and all the other abuses by Microsoft, then go right out and buy another PC with Windows.Self-inflicted much?

Jeez people just vote with your wallet already.

I also complain every day about being stuck in traffic and about the cost of petrol. But there's few other ways to get to work so I take my complaining arse to the petrol station, part with another 80EUR and then potter along the highway at 20km/h.

Not because I like the self inflicted pain, but because it's one of the few choices available.

Re: There's only one way to fix Microsoft

[Anonymous Coward]

If one is willing to use a chromebook they cannot complain much about the actions of MS.

Re: There's only one way to fix Microsoft

[houstonbofh]

Let me know when a Chromebook can actually run software. No, browsing the web, sending mail or writing a letter doesn't count.

http://dailygenius.com/office-...
As everything goes to the cloud, local systems have less importance.

Re:There's only one way to fix Microsoft

[Anonymous Coward]

The only people who care are fuckwits like you who can't seem to grasp that you already lost a long time ago. Just suicide already.

Re:There's only one way to fix Microsoft

[Anonymous Coward]

Nobody ever got fired for buying Windows!!!

Re:There's only one way to fix Microsoft

[MobileTatsu-NJG]

Gee, it's almost as if their frustration is from not having adequate alternatives.

Re:There's only one way to fix Microsoft

[i.r.id10t]

Yup - but for those of us who *have* made the total switch, is dependent on what we use our desktops for.

Re:There's only one way to fix Microsoft

[Anonymous Coward]

Jeez people just vote with your wallet already.

I didn't realize it was a choice unless you assemble system on your own. Last I checked (which was several years ago) good luck getting anything with no windows "deal" on it.

Re:There's only one way to fix Microsoft

[JustNiz]

I've been doing just fine for years with Linux as my Desktop.

Re: There's only one way to fix Microsoft

[Anonymous Coward]

Ahh, you misinterpreted it through your penguin colored glasses. I don't mean "can't figure it out" with installation, anyone with 20 minutes can install Linux. I mean "can't figure it out" as in the minute something goes wrong, they don't want to spend however long it will take to figure out how to fix whatever problem they're having. Not everyone is built with the drive to know technical stuff about computers like us. The audience that Mac and Windows cater to are the ones that don't give a flying fuck about PCs. They have a task to do and those OS's make it simple for them.

That's the one thing that geeks don't get about the typical PC user... They just want to do what they do on the PC. They don't want to jump through hoops to get their software, that they use a PC for, working on a platform that their software wasn't designed to run on. They don't want to learn about WINE or VMs or any technical shit. They just want to turn on their PC, run their software, and do their work.

The sooner you learn that, the sooner you'll figure out that you are probably better off not trying to convince people to use Linux. I've been using only Linux for coming up on 10 years now (7 years on Ubuntu and close to 3 on Mint,) and I wouldn't recommend it to anyone that didn't have some kind of lean toward learning about computers.

Re:There's only one way to fix Microsoft

[Ol Olsoc]

It doesn't solve the problem of Microsoft abusing customers who (rightly) feel that have no other choice without either becoming a computer expert, or spending an arm and a leg for a Mac..

Then the decision is made. They will put up with whatever shit Microsoft wants them to eat. World witout end, Amen.

First off at least for me, I could give a damn about which computer is most popular. I tend toward using a computer for the tools it gives me. I do a lot of work on OSX that uses Mac Specific applications. Price? Doesn't matter, but if the price difference you claim is the proverbial arm and leg, difference, that difference isn't so much numerically that they might consider sticking with their old computers if it's a problem. But I digress.

I use Linux for more security. I have one application that I need a Windows machine, otherwise I "use" Windows only to learn how to troubleshoot Windows machines.

But the programs that I need to interface between the OS's are provided by Open source, like the Office Suite. Micorsoft Office isn't compatible between Mac and PC, so it's a non starter. They are tools, and the concept of one being too expensive (which it isn't anyway) is like deciding that you will only use slip joint pliers instead of sockets because slip-joints are cheaper.

Re:There's only one way to fix Microsoft

[Ol Olsoc]

Oh, so cost is what is really holding the Year of the Linux Desktop?

ANd my ford will trounce your Chevy, p> And Captain Picard can kick Captain Kirk's ass from here to friggen vulcan and back.

You do realize that almost no one gives a damn about "The Year of Linux on the Desktop" don't you? Just you and a few people who don't even know where the meme came from.

Re: There's only one way to fix Microsoft

[VValdo]

Let me know when a Chromebook can actually run software. No, browsing the web, sending mail or writing a letter doesn't count.

This fall.

Re:There's only one way to fix Microsoft

[Ol Olsoc]

I'm not even sure I know what this mythical "Year of the Linux Desktop" is even meant to be so I'm probably not the best person to ask about it.

It's what the fanbois chant whenever someone says something positive about Linux, an ancient meme that should immediately be followed by a retort about how Windows 1 sucks.

Where exactly it came from is buried in history,(maybe) but it's pretty pointless, as no Linux user I know has a remote interest in just how "popular" it is.

Popularity is for People Magazine, Kim Kardashian rappers, and Windows fanboys. I got work to do.

Re:There's only one way to fix Microsoft

[Ol Olsoc]

I also complain every day about being stuck in traffic and about the cost of petrol. But there's few other ways to get to work so I take my complaining arse to the petrol station, part with another 80EUR and then potter along the highway at 20km/h.

Not because I like the self inflicted pain, but because it's one of the few choices available.

Too bad there is zero other choice.

Re:There's only one way to fix Microsoft

[Ol Olsoc]

The only people who care are fuckwits like you who can't seem to grasp that you already lost a long time ago. Just suicide already.

Tumblr called - they want you back.

Re: There's only one way to fix Microsoft

[tsa]

I really don't understand people who see Google's stuff as an alternative to Windows 10.

Re:There's only one way to fix Microsoft

[Anonymous Coward]

when most of the software you want to run only runs on windows you don't really get to vote with your wallet.

Re: There's only one way to fix Microsoft

[JustNiz]

Nor do I. Windows 10 is much worse.

Re:There's only one way to fix Microsoft

[MobileTatsu-NJG]

I would take a hit in productivity.

Re:There's only one way to fix Microsoft

[JustNiz]

I guess it depends on what you're doing. I take a (big) hit in productivity working under Windows.

Re: There's only one way to fix Microsoft

[david_thornley]

If I go out to a computer store, buy a computer, and take it home, will it be easier for me to run Windows or Ubuntu on it? Windows installation might be difficult (it's been a long time since I did it), but it's already done, while it would be necessary to spend a little effort to install Ubuntu.

Re: There's only one way to fix Microsoft

[JustNiz]

Chances are it will already have windows on it. Ubuntu installation is so simple its crazy, yet actual facts won't stop a bunch of windows fanbois trying to tell you otherwise Just ignore them and try it for yourself.
  I guess the question is waht matter to you most? The 15 minutes of mild inconvenience it takes to install Linux, or the years of almost constant aggravation you will get from keeping windows?

Re:There's only one way to fix Microsoft

[exomondo]

It boggles my mind how people rightly complain about this and all the other abuses by Microsoft, then go right out and buy another PC with Windows.Self-inflicted much?

Jeez people just vote with your wallet already.

So if you've chosen to use something you're not allowed to complain that it isn't perfect? The auto-upgrade to Windows 10 was a minor annoyance and it should have been handled better but in the end all my Windows programs still run just as they did before.

Sure if it's a "critical" problem then the answer is to change, it will be difficult and probably require time and monetary contributions/investments to make sure alternative programs are available but that's the cost.

Re:There's only one way to fix Microsoft

[JustNiz]

You think forcing an upgrade on people is a minor annoyance? omg lol

Re: There's only one way to fix Microsoft

[Anonymous Coward]

Because Windows never breaks...

Re:There's only one way to fix Microsoft

[exomondo]

You think forcing an upgrade on people is a minor annoyance? omg lol

Yes, actually you exclusive Windows users are a long way behind the times. When a new version of iOS comes out people upgrade, when a new OS X version comes out people upgrade, Ubuntu users apt-get dist-upgrade regularly, Android users (when they are lucky enough to get them) do an OS upgrade when it comes through. In face most of the complaints surrounding Android about people not getting enough upgrades!

We are all used to upgrading our systems in a reasonable timeframe after the upgrade has been released, it only seems to be Windows users that don't do this. Of course that may be due to the fact that almost all (actually maybe all of them) have been paid upgrades rather than free ones.

Re:There's only one way to fix Microsoft

[JustNiz]

>> Yes, actually you exclusive Windows users are a long way behind the times.

That isn't me, I have a Linux desktop and won't even let Windows on my PC.

Re: There's only one way to fix Microsoft

[david_thornley]

Yes, it will have Windows on it. Ubuntu installation requires a few steps. I've done it several times, and I know what I'm doing. I download the distro, burn it to a DVD-ROM, boot from it, and select install. I then answer a few questions about partitions and the like. After all, I do more or less know what I want for disk partitions, and my SSDs and hard disks are large enough that it won't matter if I make minor mistakes. (It's been a couple of years since I installed it, so I'm fuzzy on the details.) It's easier than installing Windows, according to my very limited experience.

We're outside the comfort zone of the average user. Assuming the average user knows to get Ubuntu (or Mint, or some other generally friendly distro), downloading it isn't difficult. Burning and booting from the DVD-ROM is unusual. The technical stuff is going to be intimidating. This is a barrier. If I were to recommend Ubuntu to a non-technical person (and Linux will work best for the seriously technical and the thoroughly non-technical), I'd install it myself and run the person through a few things.

Re:There's only one way to fix Microsoft

[Anonymous Coward]

How many windows users use CAD? 1 in 10 million?

Photoshop is overkill for 99.9999% of computer users. So is GIMP, by the way.

Very, very few people need Office over LibreOffice.

Wiping Windows off a hard drive and installing Linix is trivial.

It is self-inflicted and you are an asshole.

Re: There's only one way to fix Microsoft

[vilanye]

I just set up a new Dell laptop for a friend.

It required a ton of work for a new laptop. Sound was miserable and required that I search Dell's website for a proper driver and then mess with settings to get it acceptable.

Same with graphics drivers to get the screen to auto-rotate in tablet mode.

Of course, I had to install anti-beacon + anti-virus since it was Windows 10.

Most Linux distros work without extra effort once the install is done.

Windows is significantly harder to install and setup, even if an OEM installs it.

Re:There's only one way to fix Microsoft

[Toshito]

A computer with windows is like a car with a gas engine. It's very popular, and you can find gas everywhere.

A Mac is like a car with a diesel engine (in North America), it's much less popular, and not all gas station have diesel.

A computer with linux is like a car with a propane engine. Good luck finding a propane distributor when you're away from big cities.

That's why people still buy windows PC, it's because 90% of software is made for this OS.

What is the EFF supposed to investigate?

[Anonymous Coward]

The petition asks for the EFF to "investigate Microsoft". What investigatory powers does the EFF have? They can't just show up in Redmond and go "hey assholes, open up" - so did the petition's author mean the FTC instead or something?

Re:What is the EFF supposed to investigate?

[ClickOnThis]

The EFF does not have investigative powers, but it does have investigative talent, and a recognized history of advocacy for consumers.

Re:What is the EFF supposed to investigate?

[Motherfucking Shit]

I think it's just an odd choice of phraseology on behalf of the petition creator. EFF has filed a number of lawsuits against companies that do harm to consumers, so that's probably the goal here. Count me in.

Re:What is the EFF supposed to investigate?

[kheldan]

It won't be the first time that Microsoft has misbehaved on a scale that required some sort of large legal action. An organization like the EFF has enough credibility that if they 'investigate' the situation, find serious problems, and start talking to the right people, they'll be heard and something on an official level will be started. Random tech geeks complaining on an internet discussion forum aren't going to get anything done on their own, especially when 99% of the computer-using public don't even understand the problem when you try to explain it to them, they think they're just getting something that costs hundreds of dollars for free, and since the malware aspects of Windows 10 is silent, they don't even know how they're being taken advantage of with hardware they bought and paid for with their own money.

Re:What is the EFF supposed to investigate?

[Anubis IV]

This is the Internet equivalent of asking your big brother to fight your fights for you. The EFF has no authority, no power, and no ability to compel Microsoft to do anything, other than possibly laying the groundwork for someone else to initiate a class action lawsuit regarding this behavior.

Re:What is the EFF supposed to investigate?

[PolygamousRanchKid]

They can't just show up in Redmond and go "hey assholes, open up"

Well, that strategy did seem to work with Goatse.

Not that the Internet needs any more of that.

Re:What is the EFF supposed to investigate?

[Anonymous Coward]

It would not surprise me if EFF has members with investigative powers, both legal and otherwise.

Re:What is the EFF supposed to investigate?

[Anonymous Coward]

The "forced upgrade" then decline the EULA method sounds like a great way to plant a trojan horse.
Someone needs to fully investigate the differences between a system that has Never10, one that is getting spammed, and one that has declined the EULA.

Re:What is the EFF supposed to investigate?

[im_thatoneguy]

What exactly would they even charge them with.

"Hey assholes, stop updating and maintaining your flagship product!"

This would set a really really bad precedent if they somehow did find Microsoft Legally guilty of something. What would that something be? Illegally updating code without consent? Downloading a bit without explicit consent?

Issue a security patch, have it install automatically: lawsuit.
Replace certificate in keychain: lawsuit.
Cache website before it's clicked on: lawsuit.
Download email automatically using default settings: lawsuit.

It's also incredibly ironic that Google is criticized for failing to keep the OS up to date on most devices causing fragmentation and Microsoft is criticized for failing to allow their OS to become fragmented. I'm sure most people with an Android device wished they had the problem "Google keeps ensuring every device gets the latest version of Android."

Re:What is the EFF supposed to investigate?

[swb]

They don't have any official investigatory powers, but what they do have is a level of organizational competency and probably some level of lobbying influence (like, they can actually get a meeting with a congressional aide who isn't a summer intern).

They also might have the time and staff to setup some kind of coherent and competent testing to build an understanding of the when and hows of Windows 10 auto upgrading.

Right now my sense is we have a chorus of people complaining about a lot of contradictory behaviors with Windows 10 upgrades. In this forum alone I've read what sound like competent people (ie, they type in complete sentences with basic grammatical correctness) describing totally contradictory outcomes.

It would be nice if an organization like the EFF actually ran a dozen or however many was necessary Win 7 desktops to see what's involved in getting to a nearly forced upgrade, and did it in a way that mimicked the scientific process enough to seem fairly conclusive.

At this point I don't know what I believe other than my own personal experience that says setting the GWX registry keys works so far. I haven't seen a system with them set (via group policy or locally) that has upgraded to Win 10.

That being said, I completely believe Microsoft is willing to force Win 10 by hook or by crook. It also wouldn't surprise me if their upgrade system had varying levels of aggressiveness based on criteria we don't understand, with the idea that by creating confusion as to potential outcomes that they can get away with a level of aggressiveness because people who haven't yet been targeted for it will write off those who have as incompetent or crackpots.

Re:What is the EFF supposed to investigate?

[Anonymous Coward]

God is assessing the hearts of Bill and Melinda as we speak.

Dig a big big big fucking tomb.

Re:What is the EFF supposed to investigate?

[frier]

*Issue a security patch, have it install automatically* - what's the damage?
*Replace certificate in keychain*- what's the damage?
*Cache website before it's clicked on*- what's the damage?
*Download email automatically using default settings*: OK, here the *damage* is obvious :- )
*Made my PC temporary unusable at the wrong and unplanned by me point of time* - the damage is measurable and demonstrable...

Re:What is the EFF supposed to investigate?

[Anonymous Coward]

Updates should be clearly labelled with what they do (no vague generic descriptions), they should also be appropriately categorised (putting Windows 10 advertising in a security update is just wrong). Updates that push advertising in to the OS should not be automatically installed at all.

A lot of what people are complaining about is not the regular updates, but the extra unwanted crap MS shoved down everyone's throats. BTW, Windows isn't their flagship product, their flagship would be Office. And even if it is, the flagship version of Windows would be 10, the reason most people are complaining is because they don't like 10, they can keep updating 10 all they like, but stop fucking up the older version that people have paid for and like just the way they are.

And yes, I'd be pissed if Google forced updates on my phone too. Personally I prefer the Android 4.x UI to 5.x (haven't really had much of a look at 6). It is good to have the option, but I don't want it forced on me.

Ahh, change.org

[Anonymous Coward]

email address harvesting masquerading as a Slashdot article!

Wrong priorities

[MobileTatsu-NJG]

Yes, Microsoft is being too aggressive, however I feel this is less important than finding out what is being sent via the telemetry service. I will not use Windows 10 because many of the projects I work on are under NDA. How do I know Windows isn't sending out info to the mothership that, in essence, violates that NDA? What if Windows is sending a list of all the folders on my hard-drive? An employee of theirs might see that and go "Hey, this guy is working on the Nintendo NX*! I'm going to post this to the rumors sites!" That's the sort of thing that could get me, my colleagues, and the companies I work for in trouble.

* I am not working on anything Nintendo related, I just plucked that example out of the air.

Re:Wrong priorities

[Anonymous Coward]

Any version of WIndows with error reporting enabled will send any memory dumps to Microsoft when crashes happen. This will violate your NDA, HIPAA, and virtually every other law protecting information.

Re:Wrong priorities

[mlts]

There is also the fact that we don't know how well the data is secured. Unlike a cloud provider, if Cortana or a search process sends data to the mother ship about something sensitive, MS may not use it, but there is always the concern that they get compromised and someone now has that info about the new NX, with the exact SoC chip masks and other confidential items.

There is also the fact that MS may be coerced to forking that info over. For example, if something got uploaded to MS in the US, and Elbonia put the squeeze on MS, there isn't anything to stop MS handing any/all info they get to the Lower Elbonia Street Squad on a constant basis. Lawsuits? Between arbitration and EULA precedents, it would be almost impossible to actually get anything accomplished.

I wish there were another desktop that is viable in the enterprise. However, there isn't anything that is as manageable on a large scale as Windows, nor any management infrastructure that can scale up as high as AD/GPOs. Most likely, companies might have to move to VDI or block communication to MS, pushing out security updates via WSUS or SCCM.

Re:Wrong priorities

[Anonymous Coward]

So what? You should disable that then.

Re:Wrong priorities

[Anonymous Coward]

Those dumps are opt-in and you can see the data going out.

Re:Wrong priorities

[Anonymous Coward]

We have over 2500 Windows 7 Pro PCs (all different makes/models across like 100 sites with many different configs). Not single forced W10 upgrade. We prepared... We're actually looking at upgrading now. People want it and all of our testing has been fine.

Re:Wrong priorities

[Anonymous Coward]

im so sorry that you have so many stupid ignorant users.

Re:Wrong priorities

[cfalcon]

I mean, they weren't totally opt-in in 2013, and that was before Windows 10.

http://community.websense.com/...

Re:Wrong priorities

[ljw1004]

I believe it doesn't send *memory dumps*. It sends crash dumps, also called "mini-dumps" within Visual Studio. They don't have the heap. They include registers. They include callstacks, but I think these only include address pointers not the stackframes themselves (not sure). They include a list of all loaded DLLs/EXEs in the process along with the address at which they're loaded.

(I work at Microsoft, and have had to investigate the occasional crash-dum- to fix whatever bug caused it, and the dumps didn't have any heap, so it's always taken a lot of guesswork and detective work to figure out what the bug was based only on the callstack).

Re:Wrong priorities

[HiThere]

When I asked my doctor about that, he said it was ok with the HIPAA because the feds had certified it as compliant.

Re:Wrong priorities

[HiThere]

An anonymous coward makes an assertion that says lots of other posters were wrong, stupid, or incompetent. Should I believe him?

OK, you are actually Anonymous Coward #52254331, but this doesn't provide me a feeling of certainty in your integrity. I do understand why you might not want to admit who you work for, however. (Several reasons.)

Re: Wrong priorities

[Anonymous Coward]

Buy Windows 10 based system.
Activate it.

Tell router not to allow your IP off the Lan or disable DHCP and don't give it a gateway. You'll be able to access locally available network resources ( same subnet ) but it won't be able to go anywhere else.

Use a secondary system, preferably Linux based ( or Mac for those of you who swing that way ) for all your Internet needs.

That is about the only way I will ever use a Win 10 system.

Re:Wrong priorities

[Anonymous Coward]

Here's an idea - maybe reading Slashdot comments doesn't count as "reasonable and informed".

Re:Wrong priorities

[U2xhc2hkb3QgU3Vja3M]

It does explain your seemingly crazy post.

Re:Wrong priorities

[Anonymous Coward]

They include a list of all loaded DLLs/EXEs in the process along with the address at which they're loaded.

And you don't think that something like, hypothetically, an uptick of HALFLIFE3.EXE executables (Insert HALFLI~3,EXE joke here for plausible deniability) dumping core from an IP range owned by Valve isn't material nonpublic information about one of Microsoft's competitors?

This is why I will never run Win10. It's polite to help developers by opting in (and I'm willing to compromise -- "by not opting out") -- but the user must always have the option to opt out, because when it comes right down to it, if the user doesn't want to help MS help third-party developers, it's none of your fucking business what processes they're running.

(Concluding PROTIP: The most unreliable process on my machine is PRIME95.EXE, not because the program is buggy or the OS is buggy, but because I use it for testing overclock stability. In short, by not letting me opt out, all you're doing is polluting your data set.)

Re:Wrong priorities

[Anonymous Coward]

"I believe", "I think" - sounds like Microsoft don't educate their staff very well.
No official documentation on what the telemetry does?
Or, just perhaps, a troll sent to "calm our fears" with unsubstantiated rumour...

Just update your computer and stop whining!

[slasher999]

These complaints are coming from the same noisy minority who will ignorantly blame Microsoft or anyone else when their computer is infected by some exploit that would have been prevented had they kept it up to date.

Re:Just update your computer and stop whining!

[WaffleMonster]

These complaints are coming from the same noisy minority who will ignorantly blame Microsoft or anyone else when their computer is infected by some exploit that would have been prevented had they kept it up to date.

Windows operating system is dying while Microsoft stumbles around drunk on cloud Kool-Aid. You can't make this shit up. batshit insanity. A company that lives or dies on TRUST keeps attacking their customers with one underhanded shady maneuver after another.

Vast majority of ownage comes from social engineering attacks requiring no unintentional software defects to succeed. Vast majority of Windows security patches are irrelevant to users who do not participate in a multi-user environments and do not expose any services to the network.

At this point given recent history of last few years using a third party browser and disabling windows update wholesale while sprinting to get yourselves the heck off Windows seems like the only rational course of action remaining.

YASP (Yet Another Stupid Petition)

[BarbaraHudson]

The EFF has zero enforcement powers. And petitions are useless. Real change happens in the courts, or by you changing your own behavior so as to not buy their products. Petitions are for slackers.

Re:YASP (Yet Another Stupid Petition)

[thegarbz]

Real change happens in the courts,

That's cute, especially given Microsoft's history in the courts, especially on the losing side.

Re:YASP (Yet Another Stupid Petition)

[Anonymous Coward]

The EFF has zero enforcement powers. And petitions are useless. Real change happens in the courts, or by you changing your own behavior so as to not buy their products. Petitions are for slackers.

Real change happens in many places, often slowly enough that it is not immediately apparent.

Your absolute statements above are - while not strictly false - not particularly helpful, either.

Re: YASP (Yet Another Stupid Petition)

[AgNO3]

The EFF has lawyers and act in a fashion similar to the ACLU. They have the legal expertise to sue or present proper legal arguments to the DOJ for the DOJ to investigate with public pressure and oversight to insure a more fair investigation.

Re:YASP (Yet Another Stupid Petition)

[fustakrakich]

The courts aren't supposed to change anything. They exist to settle disputes. And petitioning has changed some legislation in some places where the elected officials are failing. I think we should petition to reduce their salaries. We can do it, you know.

Re:YASP (Yet Another Stupid Petition)

[simplypeachy]

After successfully updating Adobe Reader on a customer's laptop, Windows 10 politely informed me that the "default PDF handler was corrupted". It was not. Windows 10 then automatically set the default PDF reader to Edge. Real change happens in the courts, then a few years later is forgotten.

Re: YASP (Yet Another Stupid Petition)

[Anonymous Coward]

If enough slackers come together to collectively use our fat fingers then even us couch-lords can make a small difference or at least raise awareness. Better than doing nothing.

Re:YASP (Yet Another Stupid Petition)

[BarbaraHudson]

So what's stopping all these slackers from going to small claims court when their system fails to boot after the upgrade?

Re: YASP (Yet Another Stupid Petition)

[BarbaraHudson]

100,000 small claims court claims would be quicker, use up more of Microsoft's resources, and get money into the hands of the victims instead of the lawyers and the victims getting a $5 voucher.

Re:YASP (Yet Another Stupid Petition)

[BarbaraHudson]

The courts would just be enforcing existing tort law. Microsoft caused the user damage, they should pay. No new laws needed, no judicial over-reach.

Re: YASP (Yet Another Stupid Petition)

[BarbaraHudson]

Hardly. When all everyone does is post to others who feel the same, it's just an echo chamber. A feel-good exercise. One of the guys who founded the 1% protests in New York admitted that in the end it was ineffective in achieving change.

Re:YASP (Yet Another Stupid Petition)

[netkgb]

Doing something is better than doing nothing.

Re:YASP (Yet Another Stupid Petition)

[sjames]

The EFF has lawyers for a reason.

Re:YASP (Yet Another Stupid Petition)

[Anonymous Coward]

the more you talk, the more I'm convinced of your utter stupidity.
and that was before I noticed your sig.

Re:YASP (Yet Another Stupid Petition)

[BarbaraHudson]

Doing something is better than doing nothing.

Really? If you know it's going to be ineffective and you do it anyway because you don't want to do any of the more effective approaches outlined elsewhere, what does that say about your commitment?

Re:YASP (Yet Another Stupid Petition)

[BarbaraHudson]

And your point is? What law will you tell the lawyers that Microsoft is breaking?

The license you agreed to allows them to do this. Don't like it - turn off updated until after July 29th, or switch to another OS. Problem solved.

Re:YASP (Yet Another Stupid Petition)

[sjames]

Actually, I don't do windows. It has been a pain for people I know, however. Naturally, my point is that pursuant to your suggestion that real change happens in courts, the EFF has lawyers (people who specialize in making change happen in court). That kinda refutes the whole EFF has no power.

Re:YASP (Yet Another Stupid Petition)

[BarbaraHudson]

If you actually looked at the EFF Victories Page, you'll see that all those "victories" no longer mean anything.

For example, their "win" against pen registers is obsolete because now you have skyhooks that can track ALL phones in an area.

Re:YASP (Yet Another Stupid Petition)

[sjames]

So Julius Caesar was a nobody because Rome is gone?

Meanwhile, perhaps you should look at the more recent wins, not the oldest.

Re:YASP (Yet Another Stupid Petition)

[BarbaraHudson]

That's all they had posted on their victories page. Pretty thin gruel.

Re:YASP (Yet Another Stupid Petition)

[sjames]

You should check your browser, there were a lot more (and far more recent). I found them following your link.

I think it would be interesting...

[Razed By TV]

to see either a class action lawsuit, or investigations into Microsoft committing unauthorized computer access / installing software for the purposes of spying on people.

Lets be real now, what did MS do wrong?

[Anonymous Coward]

Anything and everything related to Windows 10 is stated plainly in the EULA.

First year law school stuff here folks. A EULA is a contract, and MS is just doing what they stated they have the right to do as per the agreement spelled out quite plainly before someone hits "accept".

Any investigations by the EFF's part or even lawsuits will be smacked into oblivion. In fact, the EULA forces all claims into arbitration anyway, so any judge who has gotten beyond first semester in law would find the EFF culpable for vexatious litigation, and find for MS.

Re:Lets be real now, what did MS do wrong?

[grumbel5969]

Could you point me to the part in the Windows 7 EULA that says that the system will randomly self destruct and replace itself with a different OS at some random point in the future?

Re:Lets be real now, what did MS do wrong?

[ledow]

You should have stayed on for the second year of law school. They would have told you that a contract cannot be automatically upgraded unless reasonable and the reasonable opportunity given to back out or otherwise not agree to the terms, that all contracts have to be reasonable anyway, that contracts are meetings of minds, and that unfair contracts will be interpreted in favour of the party that didn't draw them up (i.e. the user).

A EULA is also not specifically a contract, though it may form part of one, but a grant of licence to use a copyrighted work. If the terms to use that copyrighted work include, say, automatic control over your computer, upgrades, telemetry, etc. then it could easily be interpreted as overbearing for a copyright licence. It's also certainly not an automatically binding contract, and is override by basic statutory rights and contract law. Just because you agree to "give your firstborn" does not mean that's legal - even if you WANT to do that! And changing the goalposts later never goes down well in court.

And I agreed the Windows 7 EULA, not the Windows 10 one. What if I disagree with the Windows 10 one? Are they trying to trick me into agreeing by other methods (i.e. automatically upgrading me?), giving me no reasonable option, etc.? That's basically duress.

Personally, I think MS are on a hiding to nothing, and they'll "get away" with it for the most part. And then when Windows 10 becomes "pay only", and Windows 11 is treated the same way, they'll be a comeback that everyone else will have seen coming.

All its shown me is that MS hasn't changed one bit in its existence and all the posturing of recent years is just a trap to force you to upgrade. I certainly shan't be buying MS licences for my own use and, by extension, I avoid and recommend against their cloud services, office products, browsers, and even their consoles, phones, tablets and software services (though, let's be honest, you hardly need to avoid that shite).

Chromebooks are going down well with everyone asking me about "cheap laptops". Office compatibility for home use is barely an issue any more. Cloud services have plenty of alternatives. Most people have seen iPads and Macs and understand "they aren't Windows" and it doesn't stop people nowadays. I get just as many Apple Pages job applications as Microsoft Word (and when its for a techy position, I file those in the Deleted Items folder appropriately).

Here's hoping it's just a swansong for Microsoft, but if we can screw them to the floor with an EU parliament investigation or similar, maybe we can completely remove their influence more quickly.

Re:Lets be real now, what did MS do wrong?

[whoever57]

And I agreed the Windows 7 EULA, not the Windows 10 one. What if I disagree with the Windows 10 one? Are they trying to trick me into agreeing by other methods (i.e. automatically upgrading me?), giving me no reasonable option, etc.? That's basically duress.

You think that Microsoft has not got its legal ducks in a row? I seriously doubt that. It's possible that either the Windows 7 EULA includes sufficient terms for Microsoft to do the upgrade, or, somewhere along the line of updates from Microsoft, hidden in the small print, there were terms that allow the Windows 10 upgrade.

It might be more interesting to look at the legality of this in the EU, where contract trickery is not so well tolerated by the courts.

Re:Lets be real now, what did MS do wrong?

[Insanity Defense]

A EULA is a contract, and MS is just doing what they stated they have the right to do as per the agreement spelled out quite plainly before someone hits "accept".

Really? Every time I have bought software it was termed as a sale and had a receipt for the sale. A License/Contract was never mentioned. I doubt also that the retailer has a contract with Microsoft to enable them to sign a contract for MS. Normally the terms of the contract are agreed to BEFORE payment is tendered, they are not normally presented AFTER payment.

Re:Lets be real now, what did MS do wrong?

[cfalcon]

It's under section 7, Internet-Based Services. The line for Windows Update says "To enable the proper functioning of the Windows Update service in software (if you use it), updates or downloads to the Windows Update service will be required from time to time..."- it also mentions that they will be downloaded without further notice to you. The second part isn't important, but the first part is- it means that Windows Update can essentially become any manner of beast that they want, *should you choose to use it*. Or at least, they would probably be able to use that in a legal dispute about all this Windows 10 trick-upgrade bullshit.

Re:Lets be real now, what did MS do wrong?

[cfalcon]

> And I agreed the Windows 7 EULA, not the Windows 10 one. What if I disagree with the Windows 10 one?

Then it tries to back out all the million changes it just made and put you back on 7, lol.

> Are they trying to trick me into agreeing by other methods (i.e. automatically upgrading me?), giving me no reasonable option, etc.?

I think that's the track you'd have to walk down, but I'm pretty sure they have thought of it and have a pretty high confidence that they could defend it. The fact that Windows 10 can break you on attempted upgrade OR downgrade may be a solid attack vector, however, as maybe could an argument about downtime, etc? Who knows, its all jackdickery until someone with standing files a lawsuit.

Think about how vast the profits from the Windows 10 adware must be, for it to come to this. Microsoft considers it worthwhile to upset users, break people's computers who are using them in life-or-death situations, risk multiple valid legal angles, and absolutely infuriate a group of highly technical users who see this stuff and are busy switching their friends and small businesses to Linux. All that lost business, all that legal risk, and possibly even blood on their hands, all for those sweet sweet adbucks. It must just be so fucking many adbucks man, so fucking many.

Re:Lets be real now, what did MS do wrong?

[Anonymous Coward]

> And I agreed the Windows 7 EULA, not the Windows 10 one. What if I disagree with the Windows 10 one?

Then it tries to back out all the million changes it just made and put you back on 7, lol.

Resist the urge to be a lol-tard, makes everything else you've written not worth reading.

Re:Lets be real now, what did MS do wrong?

[Anonymous Coward]

I agreed [to] the Windows 7 EULA

It's standard behaviour for corporations to reserve the right to change anything, anytime, without notice but the commerce law in my country doesn't allow that, empowering with the buyer with control. Here, computers that suddenly turn Win 7 into Win 10 may be in breach of the law.

Cloud services have plenty of alternatives.

You liking cloud services makes this totally a bitch against Microsoft. Microsoft is abusing their consumer by including what is spyware in their operating system, then forcing people to use it. But uploading your personal documents and writings to the cloud also enables spying. It's why I limit my cloud usage to web-mail, where cyberspace cannot be avoided, and registry back-ups.

Re:Lets be real now, what did MS do wrong?

[nomadic]

Courts have long upheld a party's right to unilaterally modify a procedural term in a contract if they explicitly retain that right; in any event, if the agreement is to purchase a computer operating system, and updates are part of that computer operating system, the user doesn't get to dictate how MS is providing it. Like if I commit to a year-long HBO subscription, I can't argue that cancelling my favorite show is a Also "unfair contracts" are not prohibited under law; you may be thinking of "unconscionable" contracts, and there is a high burden to meet that level. Contracts certainly don't have to be reasonable, and it's ambiguous contracts, not unfair ones, that are interpreted in favor of the non-drafter.

Re:Lets be real now, what did MS do wrong?

[Anonymous Coward]

First year law school stuff here folks. A EULA is a contract

So, if it's not signed, it's not valid (it's clearly not a verbal contract).
If I didn't agree to it before I paid, it's not valid (a contract after the fact is not valid).

That's good to hear, because I've heard completely different claims from Microsoft.

Forced upgrade

[Bruinwar]

It happened last night. Right at the start of my son's LAN party. One kid was on my personal desktop, just got in Overwatch & they called me downstairs. "Preparing to install Windows 10. Do not turn off your computer". Fuck that, one kid without a computer for the evening was unacceptable. I immediately hit the reset button. Luckily it booted right into Windows 7 where, for better or worse, I downloaded & ran Never10.

Linux is not an option for me. The software I run for work no longer has a version for Linux. I am stuck with MS for now & likely will be installing Win10 in the next few weeks anyhow.

Re:Forced upgrade

[Anonymous Coward]

Don't forget Spybot AntiBeacon to stop all the "telemetry" bollocks too.

Re:Forced upgrade

[cfalcon]

> Linux is not an option for me. The software I run for work no longer has a version for Linux.

This is the kind of lock-in that is just so hard to fight. Most of the visible fight is on the side of games, because gamers are ultimately trendsetters in hardware and software, and are numerous, but all the myriad productivity business applications that are coded to only run on Windows is this death-grip on the software industry. If you absolutely had to, you might be able to VM it, or find a way to run it under WINE, but your most likely path is to just use Windows, and then buy another computer for your other needs. This is a win/lose for you: you get privacy and a real OS, but you have to maintain double compies. Microsoft, on the other hand, is grinning ear to ear.

Re:Forced upgrade

[Bruinwar]

cool, thx.

Re:Forced upgrade

[Bruinwar]

Yep, I got a disabled brother who's been "Microsoft free since 1998" who's keeps telling "use WINE!" but i t really is not practical & makes no sense as I would still be using Windows. VM is the same, what's the difference? I really don't see it changing anytime soon.

Re:Forced upgrade

[Anonymous Coward]

> "use WINE!" but i t really is not practical & makes no sense as I would still be using Windows.

WINE is both a framework for running Windows executables and DLL libraries on Unix machines, and a reimplementation of various Windows DLLs. Practical upshot: you can run your application with WINE using Windows DLLs (if you have them), but you can also run the application without any Windows DLLs.

The situation is somewhat more complicated than that (e.g., functionality coverage isn't 100%, so YMMV), but I suggest you give it a try.

Re:Forced upgrade

[Anonymous Coward]

As soon as someone can set a distro to do KVM/ VGA-passthrough by default, you can start making inroads until Gabe / Steam get more big-iron game companies to develop natively for Linux.

Easier said than done, I know (so many hardware specific nuances, plus giving up your best 3D card for passthrough and thus being unable to use it in Linux when desired...).

Last grasp

[iamacat]

Microsoft must be truly desperate to risk this much bad publicity and user alienation. I guess they got p0wned on mobile and MacBooks/Chromebooks, coupled with various cloud software, cast the need of anyone to own a Windows PC into doubt.

So they must have decided that they HAVE to defragment their install base and edge into mobile through tablets - or die. If you are a committed Windows user, you should probably hope that they succeed. Otherwise you will be left, at best, with poorly maintained platform run by a diminished company.

On the other hand, we don't personally owe anything to Microsoft and should just move to platforms that best suit our needs.

Re:Last grasp

[Anonymous Coward]

Microsoft is desperate to prevent Windows 7 from becoming the next XP.

    Computers have gotten to the point where they're sufficiently powerful enough for the average user (email, Facebook, shopping, etc.). And enough people know at least one tech savvy friend who can fix their computer for them when it's fucked. This combined with the increasing usage of mobile has killed desktop and laptop sales. This means that people just buying a new computer doesn't convert people to the next version of Windows as fast as it used too, and people dislike 8 and 10 enough that they're actively avoiding buying new computers to keep 7.

This has made Microsoft collectively shit their pants at the idea of having to support an OS decades beyond it's original end of support like they did with XP. They will do ANYTHING to get people off 7 and onto 10 because any bad publicity is still cheaper than having to support 7 for the next 20 years.

Re:Last grasp

[PinkyGigglebrain]

While I agree that MS must be getting desperate I have to disagree about the "user alienation".

Most users are already OWNED outright by MS, they don't know about the alternatives, or don't care enough to switch because they only play solitaire, or don't want to switch at home because they have to use it at work, and it would just be too hard to learn how to use a different OS, whaaaa!!!!!!

Lets face it; other than users who read /. and the other tech forums most people don't have a clue. They just use what ever OS came with their system and whatever software that runs on it and everyone else they know has.

Unless the companies that create the software and configure the systems start supporting/distributing other OSs on a large scale nothing is going to change anytime soon.

just my $.02

Re:Last grasp

[cfalcon]

> any bad publicity is still cheaper than having to support 7 for the next 20 years

Maybe they could release a sequel to Windows 7 and charge for it. Windows 7 2? I don't know what you would call it....

Sigh.

[ledow]

Vote with feet.

Problem solved.

Re:Sigh.

[Anonymous Coward]

If the way that things have always been done is proving to be harmful then it is time to find a new way. Even if that means giving up things that you can't imagine doing without right now.

Microsoft has had too much power for far too long and they using it now to fuck you and everyone else over.

Take it back from them while you still can.

Re:Sigh.

[ledow]

No, here voting with your feet thus means "stop buying software reliant on Windows".

The home user scenario has been sorted for a long time, especially with cloud services for things like office suites.

But if your company hasn't learned in the last 25 years to stop tying themselves into Microsoft, they have only themselves to blame. Especially in the post-ActiveX era where you can just do everything in a web browser and the back-end hardly matters.

If you're still buying into that shite "because we have to have Microsoft", you cooked your own goose, nobody else. Maybe you should have looked into standardised APIs, cross-platform compatibility, and web-based services (even hosted in-house on Microsoft servers!) 10 years ago, when everyone else did.

You keep using that word.

[Anonymous Coward]

“You keep using that word, I do not think it means what you think it means”

Someone might want to look up what the word malicious actually means, and while you're at it have a look at "hyperbole".

Re:You keep using that word.

[HiThere]

Actually, I think that malicious does plausibly describe the reported actions of Microsoft. Now whether they actually performed those actions I can't say, since I haven't used anything from them since around 2000.

While I agree that they probably didn't do it with the intent to harm, there is reasonable evidence that they acted with reckless disregard of the fact which they knew or had reason to know, would harm their customers.

Re:You keep using that word.

[Anonymous Coward]

"I see you said no to the update! Whoops! Here's another chance. Oh I see you changed the registry so you don't get it! Whoops! I see you postponed it to a date sometime after the heat-death of the universe! Whoops!"

No. Means. No.

Too bad...

[Anonymous Coward]

You don't OWN windows 7 or 8. You have a license. Microsoft is free to change this license at any time they want and if they want to change the product the license is linked to, they can do so if they want.
This is like people who complain after a game change completely from the time it was originally release (like World of Warcraft)

Re:Too bad...

[cfalcon]

No, you own Windows 7. You also have a license to operate Windows 7. They cannot change this contract at any time. The WoW example is a really bad one, because with WoW you only own the client, and you must agree to their latest EULA in order to connect to their server- but you are free to continue running the WoW 1.0 client that you own for as long as you like. There's just nothing to connect it to.

Re:Too bad...

[Anonymous Coward]

No, you don't. Please try to read the EULA before posting. I know comprehension is a skill hard to master, but let's try, shall we?
SOFTWARE PRODUCT LICENSE The SOFTWARE PRODUCT is protected by copyright laws and international copyright treaties, as well as other intellectual property laws and treaties. The SOFTWARE PRODUCT is licensed, not sold .
Not my words, the words of out lords and masters from Microsoft (and most other software companies)

Precedent

[Anonymous Coward]

I am forced to upgrade my Mac and iPhone all the time. Sometimes even nagged while I'm driving and trying to answer or make a "hands free" phone call. Point being, wouldn't they have to go after Apple too setting a dangerous precedent?

Microsoft will just say it's critical security updates, blah, blah, blah, drop support for 7. They can argue that 7 machines are getting pawned by ransomware, etc.

Also the EFF can't do shit anyway. They're not a court. Although I'm sure they could lobby people.

Re:Precedent

[cfalcon]

> I am forced to upgrade my Mac and iPhone all the time.

Like you can fucking turn that off you know. All of it. Do you even settings bro?

Re:Precedent

[psergiu]

You actually cannot disable them on iOS 9 and newer.
That's the reason i still keep my parents and in-laws iPads still on iOS 8.

Re:Precedent

[cfalcon]

Settings > iTunes & App Stores, disable "Updates" under "Automatic Downloads".

If you already automatically downloaded one and it is nagging you, go delete it under "Storage".

heh, mine failed miserably

[Anonymous Coward]

My workstation tried to upgrade to windows 10, but failed miserably. It spent an hour "installing" and then it rebooted... started, picked language, and then boom, instant reboot...back to windows 7 thankfully.

Re:heh, mine failed miserably

[Anonymous Coward]

When I had a Winbook, it stayed with 8.1 - to upgrade it to 10, which I wanted to do, I had to back up the data on OneDrive, go to a Microsoft Store in town and turn in that tablet and ask them to upgrade it for me. In a couple of days, I got it back, upgraded.

Not surprising

[SurenEnfiajyan]

Not surprising, Microsoft is a legal criminal organization.

Hmm...

[fahrbot-bot]

... people are being tricked or forced into upgrading to Windows 10 ...

Judges recently ruled raped women can sue an enabling web site. Can we get this extended to cover what Microsoft is doing to our PCs? In this case they're both the aggressor *and* enabling web site.

No means No Microsoft.

The focus is wrong

[Anonymous Coward]

EFF should instead be focusing on the objectionable content in Windows 10 (spyware).
That's the reason people don't want to upgrade.

Re:The focus is wrong

[HiThere]

Different people have different reasons for not wanting to upgrade, and some wouldn't object if it weren't being forced at an inconvenient time.

FWIW, my wife always wants to postpone upgrades as long as possible. I doubt that she's alone. She just doesn't like having to learn new icons, new control positions, etc. And I don't find her objections unreasonable even though the changes are rarely so stupid as to flummox me for very long. (P.S.: She's on Kubuntu.)

The Consumer is the Product

[Anonymous Coward]

Given the push they are making for Windows 10 (for free!) and all the advanced data collection that is enabled on Windows 10, clearly Microsoft is trying to get on the Google/Facebook train of monetizing its user base by collecting and selling their data.

Does Windows10 == systemd? Redhat == MS?

[walterbyrd]

Seems like the same idea. Most users hate it, but it is being maliciously forced on users for the sake of the vendors.

Re:Does Windows10 == systemd? Redhat == MS?

[HiThere]

No. Many users hate systemd, but most users don't even notice it.

That said, it is the same kind of change in a much more restrained way.

Easy just reverse engineer the driver for the hard

[Anonymous Coward]

Easy just reverse engineer the driver for the hardware that no longer works. This is where the weapons grade malware is hidden.

SAME SOLUTION DAILY MICRODOT

[Anonymous Coward]

http://www.tenforums.com/tutorials/22322-upgrade-windows-10-update-enable-disable-windows-7-8-1-a.html

https://www.grc.com/never10.htm

http://www.pendrivelinux.com/yumi-multiboot-usb-creator/

http://distrowatch.com/

https://www.virtualbox.org/wiki/Download_Old_Builds

https://www.virtualbox.org/manual/UserManual.html

Windows 10 Global Mother Fucking Spyware makes it game-only. You can multi-boot Linux a lot of ways and you have access to way more and way better software. You can also boot Android x86 on your PC/laptop. See distrowatch.com

Avoid Ubuntu/Redhat/Fedora unless you like Microsoft-like dickmoves. Wise guru types ditched Redhat after 7.3. Cunts.

http://portableapps.com/news/new

If you use anything on Windows you should look for portable versions. They don't mess up your "precious fragile registry". No install, just shortcut to executable. For the most part those portable apps are all available on Linux/BSD. Most are ported from Linux world. If you haven't started using Linux already you are very slow minded. Android is Linux too.

Apple is also punk shit. There is no such thing as a trustworthy homosexual.
http://i.imgur.com/oll9Cp6.jpg

You don't have to stop using your Windows for games. You are wise to ditch Windows because it is Global Mother Fucking Spyware. Period.

Linux is superior in every way. I prefer BSD's over Linux as well but Linux has simpler documentation if you are a noob. Use forums. This site is Linux. Every major site is Linux based. The International Space Station runs on Linux. All of the supercomputers with rare exception run on Linux or BSD. You think people write games for Windows because it's better? Tools. They write games for Windows because they want the guaranteed consumer base. Microsoft has it via decades of proprietary retail dickmoves. Notice how the US Gov isn't saying "oh we will split Microsoft in two if they don't cooperate" any more?

Bill has plenty of money to ship an OS that isn't total Global Mother Fucking Spyware. $80 Billion how many computer scientists can you hire? But he's spooked by spooks. See what you did? See why dabbbft?

Re:SAME SOLUTION DAILY MICRODOT

[Anonymous Coward]

Home routers are basically all Linux.

Android is Linux.

It's already a *nix world. Mac is a walled garden version of *nix... same bash shell but many
obstacles and registrations to even use XQuartz/XCode etc.

Mac OS X is the gay way to get away from Windows. For home users the best thing to do is multi-boot.
Every day surfing the web and whatnot are much better in Linux. As stated above, YUMI lets you do it
simply all on a USB flash drive.

Nice post.

Re:SAME SOLUTION DAILY MICRODOT

[HiThere]

Whether that works depends on what you're doing. Some specialized software is only available for certain operating systems. What makes this really nice is that some of it may work well on some version of MSWind, but not work at all on MSWind10.

Re:SAME SOLUTION DAILY MICRODOT

[Anonymous Coward]

All of those apps work well. Microsoft does go to great lengths to stifle Linux and BSD. They are
largely influenced by the US Gov now. Bill Gates has too much money and is not ready to die and go to
Hell yet, but it's coming. The US Gov makes sure he stays scared. Big time homo fuckfest.

Is Windows 10 Pro "better", WRT control?

[NotQuiteReal]

Still on Win7 Pro here. No forced updates, doesn't ask, wasn't invited for the free "upgrade".

Does Windows 10 Pro have more settings to control things?

Re:Is Windows 10 Pro "better", WRT control?

[Anonymous Coward]

No, but their winsxs folder isnt larger than win7. by factor 2 at least. (Calculated via .vdi-file comparison)

I also still have my win7.
How?
If you dont activate your windows7, you are not eligible for the win10-rape: Win-win.

Re:Is Windows 10 Pro "better", WRT control?

[Rockoon]

Probably you simply lack the free disk space required on your system drive. Its silently waiting for the moment that you have 1 byte more than the threshold.

Re:Is Windows 10 Pro "better", WRT control?

[Billly Gates]

The professional one does. You can select an update schedule or you can enable defere updates which means you will go on the business channel which is every 3 months and just get security updates.

Bully pulpit?

[Anonymous Coward]

What the EFF *does* bring to the table is a (relatively) big megaphone. Major media will pay more attention to them than they will to us individually. Maybe.

microsoft's response:

[Black Parrot]

"the upgrade window is part of the operating system"

Arguably illegal in Canada

[davecb]

http://www.advocatedaily.com/aaron-edgar-microsoft-risks-running-afoul-of-anti-spam-legislation.html

To summarize, the company needs informed consent. A customer's saying "no" is a binding denial of consent.

GA Computer Systems Protection Act

[Anonymous Coward]

Somehow it would seem that with all the Lawyers chasing ambulances in this state one or more would pick the following paragraph from the Georgia Computer Systems Protection act and see if there were grounds for a class action law suit. Which is in the section that states anyone doing so, "SHALL BE GUILTY OF COMPUTER THEFT." The sentence is a fine of up to $50,000 and 15 years in prison, Pocket change to Microsoft but multiplied by a million or more and you might be talking some real money. Also holding the officers of the corporation accountable for the prison time might even be more attention getting. After all Corporations "are" people, but since you can't lock up the corporation why not the Officers and Board?

    (11) 'Without authority' includes the use of a
            computer or computer network in a manner that
            exceeds any right or permission granted by the
            owner of the computer or computer network.

There are several other applicable paragraphs in this statute that also might apply. However, IANAL.

Ok everyone!

[yoshi_mon]

Here is what you can do for now. Run Win7. It is a perfectly fine OS. Yes MS has packported the spyware, aka "telemetry", to the system and how do you fix that? You manually monitor your system(s) for what updates are on them. Use this script: wmic qfe get >C:\updates.txt

Run that batch file as admin and then search for KB3035583 (the Win10 installer) and KB3021917 (spyware) and if they are there remove them.

Is this annoying and bad? Yes. Is it doable on a large scale where you have to admin hundreds or thousands of machines? Likely not. But if you just need your own personal machine that runs a stable Win64 OS then Win7 still is a decent system and you can fix it to run just fine.

Let us all stop freaking out until we see how this shakes down after Win10 goes "not free" and see if Redmond has another epiphany like they did after Vista and releases a real OS again.

Go ahead...

[Anonymous Coward]

... Fight another useless battle, EFF. Keep wasting time and resources. Keep defending burning ruins. The war for a free internet has been waged and lost a long time ago and it has been a one-sided affair. While we were divided and bickering among ourselves going after thousands pointless little causes, the other side was focused, determined and its resources were so plentiful that the outcome had never been in doubt. We have had more than 20 years - TWENTY YEARS - to get our shit together and at least present a united front but nope, we were too busy being a bunch of clowns pumping our fists in the air at the cry of "they are never gonna stop us". Well, guess what, they did it. The internet has pretty much been conquered, and any pocket of resistance is being mopped up. Did we ever try to win the hearts and minds of people? No, we wanted to be cool badasses and be "distinguished and different" from the "sheeple". Now we pay for it. Way to shit in your own mouths, assholes.

Investigate this

[Waccoon]

If it's true the EULA is a copyright agreement and not a true contract, would it apply to the installation of the software, and not just the usage? It may be a legal problem to install the OS first and then make people accept/deny the EULA just to regain control of their computer. I think if MS was forced to to present the EULA first before installation, there would be fewer problems with "accidental" upgrades.

Given how many horror stories I've heard of the rollback feature not working, and people needing to use their PC in a hurry, I'd imagine there are a lot of people who just accepted the Win10 upgrade because they felt they had no choice or refusing it would cause their PC to blow up. I know I sure as hell wouldn't trust a rollback procedure, especially after an update to Win10 on my dad's media center ended up automatically deleting a bunch of applications with no warning.

Wrong version

[dbIII]

2.1

Let me see if I understand

[ausekilis]

So... people have petitioned the Executive branch of the US government about a nonprofit organization to "investigate" a private corporation.

I feel I'm missing something here. Change.org was about government transparency and action, such as the petition to build the death star, or classify westboro baptist church as a hate group (thereby removing any federal funding for 'religious organization'). Where is the link between the Obama administration and a nonprofit organization?
I get why the EFF could be involved in a lawsuit against MS, but they likely aren't going to stir up crap here... nor do they have any investigative powers.
What exactly are they investigating for? Are they doing anything that illegal? if that EULA is enforcable as a contract, by clicking "ok" you've agreed to MS's terms.

Google pushes the GApps with every android device, all of which phone home in some way shape or form and collect your data. Even better, they are next to impossible to remove. So MS is doing the same thing with the desktop. Why is it okay for my phone, which I use many times a day to look things up and communicate with others, and not my desktop that I use every few days?

Not that I agree with either practice, but if something pisses you off, it should piss you off no matter who is doing it.

Re:Let me see if I understand

[Anonymous Coward]

You are mixing your websites up numbnuts.

change.org is not a government website. The lack of .gov should clue you in.

Update - not Upgrade

[zero_out]

I wish people would stop calling it an upgrade. That implies that it's better than its predecessors, which this clearly is not - when compared to Windows 7, at least. Windows 10 is only an update, which means that it's newer.

Now everyone, please upgrade your adjective.

Stupid is as stupid does

[phorm]

I have friends/family who are the same way about their ISP's. One of the local ISP's has been underperforming for years, and technical support # pretty much blames any issues on the user / users' equipment.
I actually called them on it after being hired ($100/h) by a second person for the same issue. First thing out of the guy's mouth "everything is fine with our mailserver, your computer must be having issues, have it serviced." So then I explained I was the tech, and asked why THEIR server was returning "bad mailbox" errors periodically when I tested mail commands via telnet. The answer then switched to "we're upgrading."

So my friends, family, and customers all know that this ISP is crappy, but as soon as their contract is up our conversation is like.
"Still having internet issues. Your contract is up, so why not switch"
"Oh, I uh, signed up for another two years because they were offering a free Xbox"

fuuuuuuuuuuuu********

How many people need to sign?

[CaptainDork]

The other day it was 200.

Today it's 1000.

This goddam petition is bloating, so clearly, Microsoft is behind it.

Fuck SystemD & Fuck BTRFS

[Anonymous Coward]

Recently I had my Linux desktop lock up. WTF? I change to a console screen and try to log in. Login fails. WTF? I power cycle the machine.

A couple of seconds into the boot process, I see a console message about systemd can't write to the journal due to a lack of space and I'm dropped into single user mode. 'Holy shit! How could I have allowed the disk to run out of space?' A quick DF shows me that I'm not out of space at all. I've got 100GB of free space on the volume. WTF?!?!

Well, a whole lot of struggling later I come to find that the volume is BTRFS(distro default) and btrfs has some limited metadata cache that falls over at 75%. WTF? 75% full and you lock up? The whole filesystem is unwritable because a metafile is 75% full?! Eventually I was able to resolve my issue and get the system up and running enough to move my data to a BETTER file system(EXT4).

So, now you're saying that this isn't a systemd problem, it is a btrfs problem. Yea, that's true. BTRFS sucks! But, systemd would not allow the system to boot at all because it couldn't write to its pathetic excuse for a system log. SYSTEMD sucks! How can you refuse to boot a system just because you can't write to the system log?

SYSTEMD SUCKS!
BTRFS SUCKS!

Wrong organization

[AnalogDiehard]

If you want an organization with teeth to investigate software, call the Business Software Alliance. Oh wait, Microsoft owns them...

Re:Windows 10 'upgrades' are good

[Anonymous Coward]

Knowing to NEVER trust Microcrap, We know that Win10 will soon be pushing advertisements (for MS profit) to our screens. Profit from advertising and sales of our personal information are all that MS lives for, hence their 'free' Win10 'upgrade'. Ubuntu lives and thrives on MS greed and purposeful misdirection, thank you MS for the push. RIP Microsoft.
 

Apple?

[synoge]

Where are all the whiners about Apple and their practices. Numerous apps on iOS that will not install unless you are on newest version. There is a reason fragmentation happens and Microsoft finally starting to follow the rest of the industry and all of sudden everyone is upset.