EFF Petitioned To Investigate Windows 10 Upgrades (change.org)

An anonymous reader writes: One of the most frustrating things about the ongoing stream of stories about Windows 10 upgrades is that there seems to be no way to hold Microsoft to account. Or perhaps there is: a petition asking the Electronic Frontier Foundation to investigate has now been posted on Change.org.
The petition argues "people are being tricked or forced into upgrading to Windows 10 from their current, preferred version of Windows," and describes Microsoft's actions as "ignorantly unethical at best and malicious at worst."

Comments

Windows 10 upgrades are good

[NotInHere]

they make people hate windows. This is the first step in installing GNU + systemd.

Re:Windows 10 upgrades are good

[Anonymous Coward]

I think GNU/system===D is pretty great. It has a lot of features in common with Linux, and is partially compatible with that OS.

Re:Windows 10 upgrades are good

[flyingfsck]

Yup - GNU/Systemd Fedora is my preferred OS. Pretty rock solid.

Re: Windows 10 upgrades are good

[Anonymous Coward]

Tired of Microsoft forcing unwanted changes on your OS? Use Linux where a small clique of Redhat engineers will do it instead!

Re:Windows 10 upgrades are good

[ilsaloving]

Oh no, what have you done?

I like systemd just fine, but I'm still gonna call it system====D from now on cause that's just too damn funny.

Re:Windows 10 upgrades are good

[lsatenstein]

Yup - GNU/Systemd Fedora is my preferred OS. Pretty rock solid.

MINE TOO.
One year with F22 with no hic-cups. 6 mo with F23 and no hic-cups.

Here is how to hold Microsoft accountable

[flacco]

- Back up your data files
- Wipe that abusive shit operating system off your machine
- Install Linux.

Don't look back.

Re:Here is how to hold Microsoft accountable

[MobileTatsu-NJG]

There are a *lot* of people who would lose important software in that move. Be mindful of that if you're going to be opportunistic.

Re:Here is how to hold Microsoft accountable

[houstonbofh]

Until this situation improves, if it ever does, we still need to have a Windows boot option.

As long as you use the Windows boot option, it will not improve. I have Steam on Linux, and a backlog of games to play that I bought on sale. (Note that borderlands 2 and then borderland the Pre Sequel back to back really is too much...) I will no longer spend money on games that will not run on my computer.

Re:Here is how to hold Microsoft accountable

[DaHat]

Surely systemd will soon have that missing functionality, then all will be well again.

Re:Here is how to hold Microsoft accountable

[houstonbofh]

- Back up your data files - Wipe that abusive shit operating system off your machine - Install Linux.

Don't look back.

I have had more clients ask about Linux in the past 3 months then in the past three years prior. With everything moving to the cloud, it is actually happening.

Re: Here is how to hold Microsoft accountable

[Anonymous Coward]

Pray tell, how exactly am I supposed to run all the software I need on a daily basis to, you know, actually make money and shit?

WINE isn't complete enough to handle 100% of the applications out there. Sooner or later you land up fiddling around with some "garbage" rated application, and your only choice then is to give up or dive into the source code yourself and implement all the missing pieces.

VMware Workstation and VBox have working rudimentary 3D acceleration, but it's not enough to support anything high end when running serious workloads.

ReactOS isn't Linux, but at least it's not really Windows either- not that it matters because you can't run anything significant on it in the first place.

I guess there's Apple, but they're busy running amok doing their own thing again (ie, with Metal, instead of actually writing a decent OpenGL stack and producing reasonably powerful hardware), plus they don't give a shit about backwards compatibility.

So... What is the solution?

Are you suggesting I should install Linux for... what? Browsing the internet and checking my email? Just reboot back into Windows 7 whenever I need to get some work done? What exactly does Linux solve for me, as a working professional, who needs access to a stable platform that can run a wide variety of commercial software packages? Am I just supposed to give up my freelance business and go open source because it's better to be free then to be able to actually do something with your computer?

What exactly is your point here?

Re:Here is how to hold Microsoft accountable

[houstonbofh]

I think we may have different customers. I have several that have partially switched.

Re:Here is how to hold Microsoft accountable

[cfalcon]

> Linux does not run most games

STOP

"Some games are still not designed to run on Linux" is more correct. This includes the subset of games that both (a) don't have a native Linux version and (b) use OS calls that WINE doesn't fully support yet.

Microsoft Windows doesn't run your games. Your games jumped through hoops to run under Microsoft Windows.

Re:Here is how to hold Microsoft accountable

[cfalcon]

Linux is a much better gaming OS than Windows is. The developers just have to get on board with that fact. Don't mistake "most games aren't compiled for Linux" with that somehow being Linux's fault.

Re:Here is how to hold Microsoft accountable

[U2xhc2hkb3QgU3Vja3M]

Borderlands 2 gives me a headache with its shitty FOV. I can play any first-person game for hours, but that one makes me want to puke after only a few minutes.

Re:Here is how to hold Microsoft accountable

[houstonbofh]

What is the motivation to write a Linux port if they will get your money anyway?

Re: Here is how to hold Microsoft accountable

[Trax3001BBS]

Clearly then the problem is grown-ass men playing video games is the problem.

Be old and be a proud game player.

I have a youtube video that has seen over 400K hits, it leaves demographics you wouldn't believe. It's a game video and the demographic that caught me eye are the ages of those that visited, there are three substantial peaks - at the ages of 36, 56, and 62. Note they take a dive at 21-30, college, a family, and life in general.

Re:Here is how to hold Microsoft accountable

[Dutch Gun]

I hope there are a few more people like you that are putting your money where your mouth is so it makes my investment worthwhile. I'm ordering a new Linux development box shortly, as I don't want to mess with my primary dev machine, plus I need space to test a few distros out anyhow. It's something I've wanted to do for a while, but hadn't really committed yet.

The way you get more games on Linux, oddly enough, is to buy games that have Linux ports. At most places I've worked over my career, a non-Windows version of the game wasn't even a blip on anyone's radar. These days, a quite a few games at least have a Mac version as well, and once you've gone that far (assuming it's not a Cider "port" of some kind), it seems like a reasonably short hop to doing a Linux port as well, given that Mac is POSIX/OpenGL as well. I guess I'll find out *how* short a hop it is fairly soon.

Honestly, even as a long time Windows developer and someone who actually prefers using Windows, Microsoft's behavior toward their users has been rather disgusting with this Windows 10 update debacle. They've burned through a lot of good will with me. I mean, I never really expected for them to be saints - I'm not that unrealistic, but I didn't expect them to be quite as high-handed with their own customers. So, I guess I'll do my small part and make sure any software I write works on as many platforms as possible.

Re: Here is how to hold Microsoft accountable

[chipschap]

Are you suggesting I should install Linux for... what?

I can't answer that question for you, but for me, the answer is "to get all my work done" as I've in fact done for 15+ years. Now, 15 years ago, it was much more of a struggle. Today, there is so much software for Linux that I seldom have to look very far. Office suite, graphics, audio processing, typesetting and desktop publishing, OCR, and on and on--- everything I need to do what I do.

I know there are specialized apps and games that don't run on Linux, and I know that Wine and even VMWare are not always good solutions. I know that some people legitimately need to run Windows, or simply want to run Windows.

But I do submit that the number of cases in which the claim is made that the job can't get done on Linux is more a function of not wanting to, rather than not being able to.

Re: Here is how to hold Microsoft accountable

[chipschap]

Correct that last sentence!

"But I do submit that quite a number of cases in which the claim is made that the job can't get done on Linux is more a function of not wanting to, rather than not being able to."

Re:Here is how to hold Microsoft accountable

[krelvin]

- Back up your data files
- Wipe that abusive shit operating system off your machine
- Install Linux.

Don't look back.

Fantasy land...

You now can then stare at the computer and realize that none of the applications and tools use you are on your now almost completely useless workstation....

Your solution is simplistic and really not very realistic for most people even those with good technical knowlege.

A workstation is more than the OS that is loaded on it. Just replace Windows with Linux and you have a box that pretty much doesn't do anything, Just like if you loaded Windows on a new workstation.

It is the applications that you use on the OS where most of what you do takes place.

What many people find is that can't find replacements for the applications they use daily or only find limited numbers of apps which work completely different, don't offer the same options or features (even if it is a Linux version of the same application). Even after a long time of searching and trying various applications you are still nowhere close to where you were before you made that jump. And you have eaten up all that spare time you never had in the first place.

You use the right tool for the job. I have a primary workstation with Win7, it has hundreds of applications I use daily for my own business, personal use, and interacting with others. It is backed up via 3 different backup solutions to ensure I don't lose my info and is the central location for most of my info.

If you look at my servers, you won't find a winbox among them. All of them are either Linux (debian), AIX a smattering of Solaris and I still have some FreeBSD boxes for specific tasks. I don't use them for a workstation, most of them are non-gui based setup, command line.

Right tools for the right jobs.

Re:Here is how to hold Microsoft accountable

[U2xhc2hkb3QgU3Vja3M]

And what is the value to use to get a "normal" FOV? And why did the programmers mess with something that's been a default for over two decades?

Re:Here is how to hold Microsoft accountable

[houstonbofh]

I almost never boot into my Windows VMs. I did not realise it but I had disconencted the Windows hard drive in my desktop some time ago, and had not tried dual booting back to wWindows sence. (And I found out when I was upgrading my desktop hard drive! For the record, WD Purple is a slow ass drive, and WD Black is WORTH THE MONEY!)

As for the Miscrosoft plan these days... It is called "selling down goodwill" and looks good on a balance sheet for a few years. Then it catches up and often they never recover.

Re:Here is how to hold Microsoft accountable

[Gr8Apes]

For the record, WD Purple is a slow ass drive, and WD Black is WORTH THE MONEY!

Any spinning drive is slow as crap these days. SSDs all the way. I only use spinning drives for backups and mass store features.

Regarding windows VMs, I very rarely spin one up, and never for games. The reason AAA games are having a tougher and tougher time is because they expect you to drop $2K every year or two for the latest and greatest hardware/software combo so you can see that wizbang shaded shadow flicker at 60fps instead of 30 fps. Honestly, most of the games are based on how fast you notice and react. You'd be best off playing them on high end CRTs (no latency) While some think that's fun, I've been more of the "where did all the fun games go". Thank goodness for GoG and Steam (believe it or not, they're actually helping the situation even though I'd rather buy everything via GoG).

Re:Here is how to hold Microsoft accountable

[i.r.id10t]

I'd be that you can do more on a Linux box with a fresh install of the latest versions of Ubuntu, Mint, or Fedora than you can on a Windows box with a fresh install of Windows.

Re:Here is how to hold Microsoft accountable

[messymerry]

I did that in '06. Best damned computational move I've ever made. I'm not lookin' back Boss,,, Actually, without corporate and government gravy, M$ would be populating the bread lines. M$: You forget who you really work for. The people that you call "CONSUMERS" are the true engine of corporate growth. YOU SERVE THE BWANKERS!!!

Re:Here is how to hold Microsoft accountable

[sjames]

On the other hand, A lot of people don't use anything that isn't replaced with something already available as part of the distro. They would be well advised to switch.

Re: Here is how to hold Microsoft accountable

[green1]

Luckily 100% of your programs have nearly exact duplicates available, that most likely work even better than their windows counterparts, and are easy to find an install with your Linux package manager.

Re:Here is how to hold Microsoft accountable

[Ol Olsoc]

Linux does not run most games, like, say, Fallout 4. Until this situation improves, if it ever does, we still need to have a Windows boot option.

Define We. You have the decision to make. You want to play your games badly enough and own one computer? Then you are Microsoft's bitch, and don't complain you made the decision to accept whatever they feel like dionog to you. Otherwise, put together a games only system for Windows 10, and some other system for anything you want any control over.

It's that simple.

Re:Here is how to hold Microsoft accountable

[Ol Olsoc]

Sorry. 'nix still isn't a gaming OS.

I remember when the Windows guys used to stick their noses in the air, and Claim that the Amiga was just a gaming machine, not suited for serious work.

How the tables have turned, the only reason to keep a windows machine is rapidly becoming as a game machine.

Re:Here is how to hold Microsoft accountable

[Ol Olsoc]

Surely systemd will soon have that missing functionality, then all will be well again.

blah, blah, blah. If you hate systemd, then who the hell is forcing you to use it on Linux? There are distros without it. More fun to be a troll though, eh?

Do you even Linux?

Re:Here is how to hold Microsoft accountable

[Ol Olsoc]

I think we may have different customers. I have several that have partially switched.

I have many that have. Windows 8 started the exodus.

Linux haters are a little like Electric car deniers. Spouting problems from 1995 as if they are happening today, while the inevitable is happening.

And if we are going to spout ancient issues, I want to talk about the piece of crap that is Windows 1.

Re: Here is how to hold Microsoft accountable

[Ol Olsoc]

Pray tell, how exactly am I supposed to run all the software I need on a daily basis to, you know, actually make money and shit?

I made a significant amount of money using OSX - what's your point?

I'll leave the shit part to you since you use Windows. That fits perfectly.

Re: Here is how to hold Microsoft accountable

[Ol Olsoc]

And then find that 90% of your programs aren't available.

Name them.

Re:Here is how to hold Microsoft accountable

[Ol Olsoc]

Let me know when Linux has support for the Wacom Cintiq Companion 2, all of the 3d modeling software I regularly use, and comes with free money to buy the Linux versions of the software.

The fucking world revolves around you apparently. If you are using a monoculture program have at it. And if Microsoft demands you will do exactly what they say. You are their bitch.

Re: Here is how to hold Microsoft accountable

[trabby]

Blame consoles more than anything, people want to be able to see their game on the TV.

TV's are a smaller "target" area than a monitor, the viewer is sitting further back, so they reduce the FOV so there is minimal perspective distortion.

PC users of course complain about it in the port as they are sitting much closer, as they need a more open FOV.

Funnily enough though a PC game that fiddled with the norm that I first remember is Half-Life 2, with its 75 degree default.

Re:Here is how to hold Microsoft accountable

[houstonbofh]

No doubt! The Linux desktop was way in advance of Windows. Remember the 3D multi desktop cube? And as soon as Linux had the most amazing desktop of any OS, the "Flat Design" craze started... Coincidence? i think not! ;)

Re:Here is how to hold Microsoft accountable

[houstonbofh]

For the record, WD Purple is a slow ass drive, and WD Black is WORTH THE MONEY!

Any spinning drive is slow as crap these days. SSDs all the way. I only use spinning drives for backups and mass store features.

Unless you need capacity. I need a 2TB drive in my desktop between the development VMs and piles of data. And a 2TB Samgsung is $750, or almost 10 times the cost of the Black!

Agree with you on the games. Just played the Deus Ex series again with the modded upgraded graphics engine in WINE. Good Game!

Re:Here is how to hold Microsoft accountable

[DeVilla]

Linux has plenty of good games. You just have to decide if you love the Windows exclusive games more than you hate the way Microsoft treats you. Then accept your decision. If you stick with Microsoft, it's your fault, not theirs. Several people have moved on. More will. The market is reacting.

Re:Here is how to hold Microsoft accountable

[mark-t]

That it is not Linux's fault that games aren't compiled for it doesn't change the reality of that fact, or its consequences for otherwise would-be Linux users.

Re: Here is how to hold Microsoft accountable

[TapeCutter]

I'm in the 56 group, arcade Pong was also my first video game (circa 1970). I picked up PC gaming with Sopwith, Buck Rogers, Doom, etc.

My wife is in the same group, her first game was internet bridge, after a very long while I convinced here to try World of Tanks, she was hooked in the first hour.

Re: Here is how to hold Microsoft accountable

[Waccoon]

What if the software you want isn't in your distro repository? The binary compatibility issue is my #1 problem with Linux, has been for a very long time, and it's something that no Linux fan wants to address. Until that's resolved, Linux isn't going mainstream -- period.

But I do submit that the number of cases in which the claim is made that the job can't get done on Linux is more a function of not wanting to, rather than not being able to.

Power users don't understand this, but everyone else does. No matter how many times Linux people insist that a distro is perfectly usable by normal people, it's totally inevitable that you'll have to drop to a shell prompt sooner or later to install something or get it working. Any time that happens, it's a function of "not being able to."

Re:Here is how to hold Microsoft accountable

[Bob_Who]

You may be onto something: This is how Microsoft intends to motivate its customers from desktop to their improved os+cloud. I wonder when the clouds part for that re-genesis...

Re:Here is how to hold Microsoft accountable

[dbIII]

plus I need space to test a few distros out anyhow.

A 60GB SSD will give you enough space for about eight of them.

Re:Here is how to hold Microsoft accountable

[dbIII]

Funny thing is when MS Windows 7 came out with those little window snapshots instead of just icons is that it made me think of the Enlightenment Window Manager doing that in 1997.

Re: Here is how to hold Microsoft accountable

[dbIII]

claim GIMP is a viable replacement for Photoshop

For most people faced with having to actually pay for Photoshop it most definitely is and those extra features don't seem to matter so much any more. How many people actually need to do colour separations to prepare for professional printing these days? Do you really want to spend enough to buy a whole new PC just to crop photos for personal use when other software can do the job?

Besides, don't "real" graphic designers use Macs anyway which renders this petty Win vs Linux tactic meaningless?

use AutoCAD

Yes, I've used it as well, from version 1.2 (on two floppy disks) onwards. It's funny how that went from the cheap option to run on PCs instead of on *nix workstations to just about the only game in town for a while. Now there is qcad, some dassualt thing and all the rest.

There are people in my workplace that like an old version of AutoCAD from before a major interface change. We run it in linux under WINE because it will not run in Vista/Windows7 and later. There's some annoying 16 bit stuff in there that prevents it from starting on a 64 bit MS Windows.

Re: Here is how to hold Microsoft accountable

[Ol Olsoc]

All major distros have adopted/had it forced upon them.

So don't use a major distro. Go to Distrowatch and find one you like out of the hundreds there. Or roll your own, and be master of your domain.

If it gets really bad, use Windows 10...................

Re:Here is how to hold Microsoft accountable

[Ol Olsoc]

Yeah yeah, just reinstall, fixes everything. Until the next distro switches to systemd, then reinstall again.

It used to be that reinstalling was the solution for Windows problems.

Yeah yeah, I've never had to reinstall any Linux system for any problems related to systemd. Sometimes I've installed a different distro for experimentation.

Hell, I even have applications that I have to use that depend on the poster child for all that is wrong with systemd - PulseAudio. Despite early issues that are long cured, I'm not having issues with either PA or systemd now.

Recently I've taken to working with Ubuntu Mate. Good interface, and so far works great. (also have UMate on an R-pi, so a little consistency is nice) I have a few programs like Outpost and Soundmodem that appear to work better in Linux than in Windows - I have them on both OS's.

Re: Here is how to hold Microsoft accountable

[Cro Magnon]

All major distros have adopted/had it forced upon them.

So don't use a major distro. Go to Distrowatch and find one you like out of the hundreds there. Or roll your own, and be master of your domain.

If it gets really bad, use Windows 10...................

Until Win10 starts using systemd! :eek:

Re:Here is how to hold Microsoft accountable

[Ol Olsoc]

Whoa, dude, you found a Wacom device that doesn't have Linux support?

You think dude has ever used Linux?

Speaking of driver support, I was outfitting some computers for a radio application. The laptops needed a serial to USB dongle attached. They were also dual boot to demo Linux versions of the programs we were using.

We used the Staples brand, because it has lights to indicate serial activity.

One laptop was being a nuisance. It set up great on Linux, but not on the Windows side. Finally I took a close look at the adapter. It looked exactly the same, kind of a long smoed transparent case. But the model number was different.

So I looked it up. There were no Windows drivers for it any more, nor were any going to be offered.

Turns out it was an adapter from an old Palm Plot type device. It looked like the new ones physically, so someone threw it in the box with the new dongles.

The experience taught me to laugh when people bloviate about lack of driver support. I haven't had that issue with Linux in the last ten years. I have had that problem in droves with Windows Vista, from the same era.

Re:Here is how to hold Microsoft accountable

[cfalcon]

Sure, but claiming Linux isn't a gaming OS is like claiming the Wii-U isn't a gaming console. It's not true at all, just because less games are made for it than another option. All the phrasing like "Linux doesn't run games" implies that something is wrong with Linux- and that influences perception.

Re:Here is how to hold Microsoft accountable

[Gr8Apes]

If I needed all that, I'd buy 2 1TB SSDs. If your VMs and data are truly needed often, then there's no reason to wait on even a black drive. Black drives are still slow, especially if you compare them to 10K or 15K drives. But the noise and power draw make the couple of hundred extra spent on SSDs worth it. (BTW, last time I priced a 2TB black drive it was running $120 on sale)

I managed to drop all my work requirements to a 500GB RAID0 pair of SSDs on my desktop, with VMs running off of a separate 500GB 850. I have a couple of other older SSDs floating about, but those are used for testing OSes and stuff. I was considering adding 2 more drives to the RAID 0 set, not to increase size but to speed it up, but found that for my main tasks I'm looking to speed up I'm CPU bound because those are single threaded and disk I/O is no longer the bottle neck.

Re: Here is how to hold Microsoft accountable

[chipschap]

No matter how many times Linux people insist that a distro is perfectly usable by normal people, it's totally inevitable that you'll have to drop to a shell prompt sooner or later to install something or get it working. Any time that happens, it's a function of "not being able to."

You make a good point, and perhaps those of us who are long-time Linux users underestimate or don't remember how long it took us to become proficient.

But ... when something doesn't work on Windows ... does the "normal" user know what to do? They don't drop to the shell because they don't know what that is and, on Windows, they would have real fun even trying to find out how to get a shell prompt.

Re: Here is how to hold Microsoft accountable

[ilsaloving]

The thing is, the parent has a fair point.

Switching OSes is not *just* about switching OSes. You also have to deal with all the applications that you were running on the previous OS. Some packages have equivalents. Most don't.

If you've already made a significant software investment on the old platform, switching can be very difficult depending on time, costs, or just plain inclination.

Sometimes you can use a stopgap solution such as running the previous OS in a VM, but it's rarely as easy as just switching.

(And yes, I'm ignoring piracy as a viable option)

Re:Here is how to hold Microsoft accountable

[mrchaotica]

On the contrary, games are designed just as much for OpenGL as they are for Direct3D. PS4 is just as much of a "first class" platform as Xbox One is (in contrast to all PC platforms -- Mac, Linux and Windows -- which are second-class afterthoughts).

Re: Here is how to hold Microsoft accountable

[lsatenstein]

Are you suggesting I should install Linux for... what?

I can't answer that question for you, but for me, the answer is "to get all my work done" as I've in fact done for 15+ years. Now, 15 years ago, it was much more of a struggle. Today, there is so much software for Linux that I seldom have to look very far. Office suite, graphics, audio processing, typesetting and desktop publishing, OCR, and on and on--- everything I need to do what I do.

I know there are specialized apps and games that don't run on Linux, and I know that Wine and even VMWare are not always good solutions. I know that some people legitimately need to run Windows, or simply want to run Windows.

But I do submit that the number of cases in which the claim is made that the job can't get done on Linux is more a function of not wanting to, rather than not being able to.

Aside from LibreOffice, I found two other products that perform as well as MS Office. Cost Effective writing is a joy without worrying about Windows and MS Office costs. By the way, I do tip the authors of software I use and for which I recognize as "worthwhile".

Re:Here is how to hold Microsoft accountable

[david_thornley]

Excuse me? GP's software setup does revolve around him. Neither you nor I are qualified to tell him what he should do about it. You want him to move off Windows to put pressure on Microsoft. He wants to get work done without additional hassle and expense. The best you can offer him is that, if he goes to a lot of additional work and expense, he might be able to put some small influence on MS that might pay off someday. You don't even seem to have a plan other than "move off MS Windows and see what happens".

Re:Here is how to hold Microsoft accountable

[Ol Olsoc]

Better make that other system something other than Linux because otherwise you are just going to be Linus's bitch.

F8unny, but Linux never went full surveillance on me, so says wireshark.

Re: Here is how to hold Microsoft accountable

[Ol Olsoc]

The thing is, the parent has a fair point.

Altogether too many users seem to think that there is a one size only wrench and one size only is what it shall forever be.

I use the best tool for the job. Sometimes that is OS X, and software I cannot get on any other platform. Sometime it is Linux, when it's either no other platform for the software, or I need better security than Windows. And if there is no other option - then Windows.

But as I said, it appears that most computer users act like the locals down at corner gas, and argue like it's Ford versus Chevy.

Are you saying that all Windows software is markedly superirm, and in no case can be performed by another platform? That software that is not on Windows is inferior? Because that's what so many here seem to believe.

That outlook by the away - is wrong.

Re: Here is how to hold Microsoft accountable

[Ol Olsoc]

Fuck you, ya old bastard!

You'd never go back to sheep.

Or you could be like me, and buy the computers you need. I play games, and if I need a Microsoft platform I use that. I won't put anything else on it though.

Re: Here is how to hold Microsoft accountable

[Ol Olsoc]

Well if you like your Amiga so much, why don't you marry it? Then you can fuck it and have little Atari babies or some shit. You're old and should feel old for being old.

You mad, bro?

Re: Here is how to hold Microsoft accountable

[Ol Olsoc]

I mean it couldn't possible be because you're wrong...

Not for that reason I can't.

Re:Here is how to hold Microsoft accountable

[Ol Olsoc]

Excuse me? GP's software setup does revolve around him. Neither you nor I are qualified to tell him what he should do about it.

I'm not telling him what to do about it - you must have me confused with someone else. I did tell him that if he had to use a Windows only program (I wrote monoculture because the same holds true for OSX and Linux - he was beholden to that OS, and had to jump through any hoops they demand. Their bitch, as it were.

You deny that?

You want him to move off Windows to put pressure on Microsoft.

Once again, not me. I have all three platforms in use. I do not like the Windows ecosystem, so my Windows machines - one W10 Dell, and an iMax running W7 do not have anything other than the very few programs I need, and nothing personal. They get booted when I need them, then shut down when I'm done.

And if you want to talk about being somoene's bitch, some of the programs I have to use for Linux require PulseAudio, so I have no choice about systemd - I don't find it problem, but some do.

He wants to get work done without additional hassle and expense.

Okay - all decisions a person has to make to decide if they are going to accept Windows and it's issues.

The best you can offer him is that, if he goes to a lot of additional work and expense, he might be able to put some small influence on MS that might pay off someday. You don't even seem to have a plan other than "move off MS Windows and see what happens".

Once again, you seem to be confusing me with someone else.

Make no mistake, I find Windows 10 to be a decent OS, but it's telemetry and other invasive features have me determine that is a steaming pile of shit.

So for the couple programs that I have to have, but are only on Windows I do have the capability, but Microsoft's telemetry doesn't get much from my setup. The insane thing around this place is that being fluent in three operating systems, and using them on a daily basis is considered a bad thing. As I said before, if you want Microsoft only, you will take what they give you.

Re: Here is how to hold Microsoft accountable

[dbIII]

If that is all you are doing the MS Paint is a viable replacement for Photoshop

Indeed it is for many.
Need a few more features and then it is not enough but GIMP is enough.
Need the stuff that is only in photoshop and that's what you need, but most people don't need those features.

Re: Here is how to hold Microsoft accountable

[dbIII]

A lot of technical drawing is not 3D loser, thus qcad is on the list along with things that can do 3D for when constructive solid geometry and similar is required.
Would you use a 3D tool to draw a map? If so you are going to waste a lot of time for no gain.

Re: Here is how to hold Microsoft accountable

[allo]

Please ...

most people who cry photoshop isn't replacable, cannot actually use more than 1% of the functions without ruining their images. And like 80% are possible with gimp/krita.
People who REALLY need photoshop are rare, and they are skilled enough to achieve the same with a combination of other programs, if photoshop is not available. Who still needs PS (and if only, because its all in one, he learned this and really uses the obscure functions) can still stay with windows or use a mac. But 99% of the users do not need PS.

Re:Here is how to hold Microsoft accountable

[david_thornley]

I was primarily reacting to "The fucking world revolves around you apparently.", which is really, really unhelpful. I'm not arguing about facts, but I don't think your attitude towards what others do is good.

Re:Here is how to hold Microsoft accountable

[Ol Olsoc]

I was primarily reacting to "The fucking world revolves around you apparently.", which is really, really unhelpful. I'm not arguing about facts, but I don't think your attitude towards what others do is good.

Here's what I am saying,

Do my computer habits dictate yours? Do the Programs I use allow me to demand what you use?

Furthermore, someone with a specific OS requirement making a comment that they have that requirement with the insinuation that it is a dumb concept for others to move to a different platform is completely useless.

It's like when Windows updates, and a number of clients have problems, and some others come on to the group to gloat that they've never ever had a problem with Windows - that's just a useless statement. It's so very similar to the monoculture argument.

Because I've seen enough of these monoculture arguments that after a while, they aren't positive exclamations, they come across as whining.

Re:Here is how to hold Microsoft accountable

[peawormsworth]

Sorry. 'nix still isn't a gaming OS.

Windows is a toy?

There's only one way to fix Microsoft

[JustNiz]

It boggles my mind how people rightly complain about this and all the other abuses by Microsoft, then go right out and buy another PC with Windows.Self-inflicted much?

Jeez people just vote with your wallet already.

Re:There's only one way to fix Microsoft

[Anonymous Coward]

Yeah, well anytime I can run all my PC games on another platform, you just let me know.

Re:There's only one way to fix Microsoft

[houstonbofh]

The do not sell Linux PCs at Best Buy and Sam's club. That makes it beyond a lot of people.

Re: There's only one way to fix Microsoft

[Anonymous Coward]

Currently, modern Linux desktop distros are by far easier to install that Windows, and dont require any faffing about with third party drivers just to get the system working properly... like Windows does.

"After spending all their money on cheap booze and drugs, users just can't afford to go out and buy food, and telling them they're doing something wrong just makes you sound like an asshole".

They're wrong. Besides, you're under the misconception that you still own Windows. Windows 10 owns you, your data, and your eyeballs. Sucker.

Re:There's only one way to fix Microsoft

[geekmux]

It boggles my mind how people rightly complain about this and all the other abuses by Microsoft, then go right out and buy another PC with Windows.Self-inflicted much?

Jeez people just vote with your wallet already.

People DID vote with their wallet. That's why they're running a (cheap) Windows PC.

Wake up.

Re:There's only one way to fix Microsoft

[Anonymous Coward]

Try buying a computer without windows... it's a hassle and limits your options quite a bit...

My private laptop is a Macbook pro running linux (don't even have osx on the disk)..
For my work-laptop it's a dell, but the only model that matched my requirements only came with windows so no option in just buying the hardware and installing linux.. The windows-tax is crazy! Would like a law that would make it illegal to forcefully bundle hardware and software together.. If the hardware is capable of running more than one OS it must be possible to buy it without any bundled OS.

Re:There's only one way to fix Microsoft

[JustNiz]

YOU wake up.
Windows costs money.
Linux is free.

Re: There's only one way to fix Microsoft

[houstonbofh]

And Androids that are also Linux based. But not a true Linux desktop without work, which was my point.

Re:There's only one way to fix Microsoft

[I75BJC]

Others have declined the M$ EULA/agreement and petitioned for a refund for the M$ O$ successfully. Buy the PC you want; decline the M$ 0$; install what you want and wait for your refund. Others have done this and documented the process for others to follow. Just to be safe, you can remove the original disk and use another (faster or flash/solid state) drive. Just Do It!

Re:There's only one way to fix Microsoft

[geekmux]

YOU wake up. Windows costs money. Linux is free.

Oh, so cost is what is really holding the Year of the Linux Desktop?

Yes, that must be it, because this is the first year Linux has been free, right?

Give me a break. Unfortunately, now Microsoft is going to try and compete with that price tag, and even with all of the complaining about telemetry, I'm willing to bet the masses STILL won't convert to Linux.

And my original comment was targeted towards the actual competition out there, which is the (considerably more expensive) OSX option.

Re:There's only one way to fix Microsoft

[U2xhc2hkb3QgU3Vja3M]

How about you get a taller computer tower so you can have Linux on the floor?

Re:There's only one way to fix Microsoft

[HiThere]

While true, this *does* fall squarely within the purpose of the EFF. But perhaps the people asking for this should join, so they can ask as members rather than just as outraged victims.

The thing is, while this is clearly within the area that the EFF was formed to address, almost none of their membership is strongly affected. And they don't have enough clout to address every abuse, so it's reasonable that they should pay most attention to those issues that most directly affect their members. And this is a request that they support those who are supporting one of their major opponents.

FWIW, I *am* a member, but I'd be more interested in seeing them address abuses of the RIAA/MPAA, even though I never acquire recordings or movies anymore. And I'd be even more interested in seeing them do what they could to ensure the freedom of APIs. Something I took for granted until those bastards at Oracle convinced or bribed a judge to say they could be copyright. Idiocy or corruption? It's hard to tell. My guess tends to be corruption, but I acknowledge that it *is* only a guess.

Re:There's only one way to fix Microsoft

[JustNiz]

I'm not even sure I know what this mythical "Year of the Linux Desktop" is even meant to be so I'm probably not the best person to ask about it. I can only speak from my own actual experience that I've been using Linux as my desktop just fine for years now, and I have found I am far more productive with Linux as a desktop than Windows.YMMV I guess.

Sorry but I can't respond to the rest of your rant because its not clear to me what point you are even trying to make.

Re:There's only one way to fix Microsoft

[thegarbz]

It boggles my mind how people rightly complain about this and all the other abuses by Microsoft, then go right out and buy another PC with Windows.Self-inflicted much?

Jeez people just vote with your wallet already.

I also complain every day about being stuck in traffic and about the cost of petrol. But there's few other ways to get to work so I take my complaining arse to the petrol station, part with another 80EUR and then potter along the highway at 20km/h.

Not because I like the self inflicted pain, but because it's one of the few choices available.

Re: There's only one way to fix Microsoft

[houstonbofh]

Let me know when a Chromebook can actually run software. No, browsing the web, sending mail or writing a letter doesn't count.

http://dailygenius.com/office-...
As everything goes to the cloud, local systems have less importance.

Re:There's only one way to fix Microsoft

[MobileTatsu-NJG]

Gee, it's almost as if their frustration is from not having adequate alternatives.

Re:There's only one way to fix Microsoft

[i.r.id10t]

Yup - but for those of us who *have* made the total switch, is dependent on what we use our desktops for.

Re:There's only one way to fix Microsoft

[JustNiz]

I've been doing just fine for years with Linux as my Desktop.

Re:There's only one way to fix Microsoft

[Ol Olsoc]

It doesn't solve the problem of Microsoft abusing customers who (rightly) feel that have no other choice without either becoming a computer expert, or spending an arm and a leg for a Mac..

Then the decision is made. They will put up with whatever shit Microsoft wants them to eat. World witout end, Amen.

First off at least for me, I could give a damn about which computer is most popular. I tend toward using a computer for the tools it gives me. I do a lot of work on OSX that uses Mac Specific applications. Price? Doesn't matter, but if the price difference you claim is the proverbial arm and leg, difference, that difference isn't so much numerically that they might consider sticking with their old computers if it's a problem. But I digress.

I use Linux for more security. I have one application that I need a Windows machine, otherwise I "use" Windows only to learn how to troubleshoot Windows machines.

But the programs that I need to interface between the OS's are provided by Open source, like the Office Suite. Micorsoft Office isn't compatible between Mac and PC, so it's a non starter. They are tools, and the concept of one being too expensive (which it isn't anyway) is like deciding that you will only use slip joint pliers instead of sockets because slip-joints are cheaper.

Re:There's only one way to fix Microsoft

[Ol Olsoc]

Oh, so cost is what is really holding the Year of the Linux Desktop?

ANd my ford will trounce your Chevy, p> And Captain Picard can kick Captain Kirk's ass from here to friggen vulcan and back.

You do realize that almost no one gives a damn about "The Year of Linux on the Desktop" don't you? Just you and a few people who don't even know where the meme came from.

Re: There's only one way to fix Microsoft

[VValdo]

Let me know when a Chromebook can actually run software. No, browsing the web, sending mail or writing a letter doesn't count.

This fall.

Re:There's only one way to fix Microsoft

[Ol Olsoc]

I'm not even sure I know what this mythical "Year of the Linux Desktop" is even meant to be so I'm probably not the best person to ask about it.

It's what the fanbois chant whenever someone says something positive about Linux, an ancient meme that should immediately be followed by a retort about how Windows 1 sucks.

Where exactly it came from is buried in history,(maybe) but it's pretty pointless, as no Linux user I know has a remote interest in just how "popular" it is.

Popularity is for People Magazine, Kim Kardashian rappers, and Windows fanboys. I got work to do.

Re:There's only one way to fix Microsoft

[Ol Olsoc]

I also complain every day about being stuck in traffic and about the cost of petrol. But there's few other ways to get to work so I take my complaining arse to the petrol station, part with another 80EUR and then potter along the highway at 20km/h.

Not because I like the self inflicted pain, but because it's one of the few choices available.

Too bad there is zero other choice.

Re:There's only one way to fix Microsoft

[Ol Olsoc]

The only people who care are fuckwits like you who can't seem to grasp that you already lost a long time ago. Just suicide already.

Tumblr called - they want you back.

Re: There's only one way to fix Microsoft

[tsa]

I really don't understand people who see Google's stuff as an alternative to Windows 10.

Re: There's only one way to fix Microsoft

[JustNiz]

Nor do I. Windows 10 is much worse.

Re:There's only one way to fix Microsoft

[MobileTatsu-NJG]

I would take a hit in productivity.

Re:There's only one way to fix Microsoft

[JustNiz]

I guess it depends on what you're doing. I take a (big) hit in productivity working under Windows.

Re: There's only one way to fix Microsoft

[david_thornley]

If I go out to a computer store, buy a computer, and take it home, will it be easier for me to run Windows or Ubuntu on it? Windows installation might be difficult (it's been a long time since I did it), but it's already done, while it would be necessary to spend a little effort to install Ubuntu.

Re: There's only one way to fix Microsoft

[JustNiz]

Chances are it will already have windows on it. Ubuntu installation is so simple its crazy, yet actual facts won't stop a bunch of windows fanbois trying to tell you otherwise Just ignore them and try it for yourself.
  I guess the question is waht matter to you most? The 15 minutes of mild inconvenience it takes to install Linux, or the years of almost constant aggravation you will get from keeping windows?

Re:There's only one way to fix Microsoft

[exomondo]

It boggles my mind how people rightly complain about this and all the other abuses by Microsoft, then go right out and buy another PC with Windows.Self-inflicted much?

Jeez people just vote with your wallet already.

So if you've chosen to use something you're not allowed to complain that it isn't perfect? The auto-upgrade to Windows 10 was a minor annoyance and it should have been handled better but in the end all my Windows programs still run just as they did before.

Sure if it's a "critical" problem then the answer is to change, it will be difficult and probably require time and monetary contributions/investments to make sure alternative programs are available but that's the cost.

Re:There's only one way to fix Microsoft

[JustNiz]

You think forcing an upgrade on people is a minor annoyance? omg lol

Re:There's only one way to fix Microsoft

[exomondo]

You think forcing an upgrade on people is a minor annoyance? omg lol

Yes, actually you exclusive Windows users are a long way behind the times. When a new version of iOS comes out people upgrade, when a new OS X version comes out people upgrade, Ubuntu users apt-get dist-upgrade regularly, Android users (when they are lucky enough to get them) do an OS upgrade when it comes through. In face most of the complaints surrounding Android about people not getting enough upgrades!

We are all used to upgrading our systems in a reasonable timeframe after the upgrade has been released, it only seems to be Windows users that don't do this. Of course that may be due to the fact that almost all (actually maybe all of them) have been paid upgrades rather than free ones.

Re:There's only one way to fix Microsoft

[JustNiz]

>> Yes, actually you exclusive Windows users are a long way behind the times.

That isn't me, I have a Linux desktop and won't even let Windows on my PC.

Re: There's only one way to fix Microsoft

[david_thornley]

Yes, it will have Windows on it. Ubuntu installation requires a few steps. I've done it several times, and I know what I'm doing. I download the distro, burn it to a DVD-ROM, boot from it, and select install. I then answer a few questions about partitions and the like. After all, I do more or less know what I want for disk partitions, and my SSDs and hard disks are large enough that it won't matter if I make minor mistakes. (It's been a couple of years since I installed it, so I'm fuzzy on the details.) It's easier than installing Windows, according to my very limited experience.

We're outside the comfort zone of the average user. Assuming the average user knows to get Ubuntu (or Mint, or some other generally friendly distro), downloading it isn't difficult. Burning and booting from the DVD-ROM is unusual. The technical stuff is going to be intimidating. This is a barrier. If I were to recommend Ubuntu to a non-technical person (and Linux will work best for the seriously technical and the thoroughly non-technical), I'd install it myself and run the person through a few things.

Re: There's only one way to fix Microsoft

[vilanye]

I just set up a new Dell laptop for a friend.

It required a ton of work for a new laptop. Sound was miserable and required that I search Dell's website for a proper driver and then mess with settings to get it acceptable.

Same with graphics drivers to get the screen to auto-rotate in tablet mode.

Of course, I had to install anti-beacon + anti-virus since it was Windows 10.

Most Linux distros work without extra effort once the install is done.

Windows is significantly harder to install and setup, even if an OEM installs it.

Re:There's only one way to fix Microsoft

[Toshito]

A computer with windows is like a car with a gas engine. It's very popular, and you can find gas everywhere.

A Mac is like a car with a diesel engine (in North America), it's much less popular, and not all gas station have diesel.

A computer with linux is like a car with a propane engine. Good luck finding a propane distributor when you're away from big cities.

That's why people still buy windows PC, it's because 90% of software is made for this OS.

What is the EFF supposed to investigate?

[Anonymous Coward]

The petition asks for the EFF to "investigate Microsoft". What investigatory powers does the EFF have? They can't just show up in Redmond and go "hey assholes, open up" - so did the petition's author mean the FTC instead or something?

Re:What is the EFF supposed to investigate?

[ClickOnThis]

The EFF does not have investigative powers, but it does have investigative talent, and a recognized history of advocacy for consumers.

Re:What is the EFF supposed to investigate?

[Motherfucking Shit]

I think it's just an odd choice of phraseology on behalf of the petition creator. EFF has filed a number of lawsuits against companies that do harm to consumers, so that's probably the goal here. Count me in.

Re:What is the EFF supposed to investigate?

[kheldan]

It won't be the first time that Microsoft has misbehaved on a scale that required some sort of large legal action. An organization like the EFF has enough credibility that if they 'investigate' the situation, find serious problems, and start talking to the right people, they'll be heard and something on an official level will be started. Random tech geeks complaining on an internet discussion forum aren't going to get anything done on their own, especially when 99% of the computer-using public don't even understand the problem when you try to explain it to them, they think they're just getting something that costs hundreds of dollars for free, and since the malware aspects of Windows 10 is silent, they don't even know how they're being taken advantage of with hardware they bought and paid for with their own money.

Re:What is the EFF supposed to investigate?

[Anubis IV]

This is the Internet equivalent of asking your big brother to fight your fights for you. The EFF has no authority, no power, and no ability to compel Microsoft to do anything, other than possibly laying the groundwork for someone else to initiate a class action lawsuit regarding this behavior.

Re:What is the EFF supposed to investigate?

[PolygamousRanchKid]

They can't just show up in Redmond and go "hey assholes, open up"

Well, that strategy did seem to work with Goatse.

Not that the Internet needs any more of that.

Re:What is the EFF supposed to investigate?

[im_thatoneguy]

What exactly would they even charge them with.

"Hey assholes, stop updating and maintaining your flagship product!"

This would set a really really bad precedent if they somehow did find Microsoft Legally guilty of something. What would that something be? Illegally updating code without consent? Downloading a bit without explicit consent?

Issue a security patch, have it install automatically: lawsuit.
Replace certificate in keychain: lawsuit.
Cache website before it's clicked on: lawsuit.
Download email automatically using default settings: lawsuit.

It's also incredibly ironic that Google is criticized for failing to keep the OS up to date on most devices causing fragmentation and Microsoft is criticized for failing to allow their OS to become fragmented. I'm sure most people with an Android device wished they had the problem "Google keeps ensuring every device gets the latest version of Android."

Re:What is the EFF supposed to investigate?

[swb]

They don't have any official investigatory powers, but what they do have is a level of organizational competency and probably some level of lobbying influence (like, they can actually get a meeting with a congressional aide who isn't a summer intern).

They also might have the time and staff to setup some kind of coherent and competent testing to build an understanding of the when and hows of Windows 10 auto upgrading.

Right now my sense is we have a chorus of people complaining about a lot of contradictory behaviors with Windows 10 upgrades. In this forum alone I've read what sound like competent people (ie, they type in complete sentences with basic grammatical correctness) describing totally contradictory outcomes.

It would be nice if an organization like the EFF actually ran a dozen or however many was necessary Win 7 desktops to see what's involved in getting to a nearly forced upgrade, and did it in a way that mimicked the scientific process enough to seem fairly conclusive.

At this point I don't know what I believe other than my own personal experience that says setting the GWX registry keys works so far. I haven't seen a system with them set (via group policy or locally) that has upgraded to Win 10.

That being said, I completely believe Microsoft is willing to force Win 10 by hook or by crook. It also wouldn't surprise me if their upgrade system had varying levels of aggressiveness based on criteria we don't understand, with the idea that by creating confusion as to potential outcomes that they can get away with a level of aggressiveness because people who haven't yet been targeted for it will write off those who have as incompetent or crackpots.

Re:What is the EFF supposed to investigate?

[frier]

*Issue a security patch, have it install automatically* - what's the damage?
*Replace certificate in keychain*- what's the damage?
*Cache website before it's clicked on*- what's the damage?
*Download email automatically using default settings*: OK, here the *damage* is obvious :- )
*Made my PC temporary unusable at the wrong and unplanned by me point of time* - the damage is measurable and demonstrable...

Wrong priorities

[MobileTatsu-NJG]

Yes, Microsoft is being too aggressive, however I feel this is less important than finding out what is being sent via the telemetry service. I will not use Windows 10 because many of the projects I work on are under NDA. How do I know Windows isn't sending out info to the mothership that, in essence, violates that NDA? What if Windows is sending a list of all the folders on my hard-drive? An employee of theirs might see that and go "Hey, this guy is working on the Nintendo NX*! I'm going to post this to the rumors sites!" That's the sort of thing that could get me, my colleagues, and the companies I work for in trouble.

* I am not working on anything Nintendo related, I just plucked that example out of the air.

Re:Wrong priorities

[Anonymous Coward]

Any version of WIndows with error reporting enabled will send any memory dumps to Microsoft when crashes happen. This will violate your NDA, HIPAA, and virtually every other law protecting information.

Re:Wrong priorities

[mlts]

There is also the fact that we don't know how well the data is secured. Unlike a cloud provider, if Cortana or a search process sends data to the mother ship about something sensitive, MS may not use it, but there is always the concern that they get compromised and someone now has that info about the new NX, with the exact SoC chip masks and other confidential items.

There is also the fact that MS may be coerced to forking that info over. For example, if something got uploaded to MS in the US, and Elbonia put the squeeze on MS, there isn't anything to stop MS handing any/all info they get to the Lower Elbonia Street Squad on a constant basis. Lawsuits? Between arbitration and EULA precedents, it would be almost impossible to actually get anything accomplished.

I wish there were another desktop that is viable in the enterprise. However, there isn't anything that is as manageable on a large scale as Windows, nor any management infrastructure that can scale up as high as AD/GPOs. Most likely, companies might have to move to VDI or block communication to MS, pushing out security updates via WSUS or SCCM.

Re:Wrong priorities

[cfalcon]

I mean, they weren't totally opt-in in 2013, and that was before Windows 10.

http://community.websense.com/...

Re:Wrong priorities

[ljw1004]

I believe it doesn't send *memory dumps*. It sends crash dumps, also called "mini-dumps" within Visual Studio. They don't have the heap. They include registers. They include callstacks, but I think these only include address pointers not the stackframes themselves (not sure). They include a list of all loaded DLLs/EXEs in the process along with the address at which they're loaded.

(I work at Microsoft, and have had to investigate the occasional crash-dum- to fix whatever bug caused it, and the dumps didn't have any heap, so it's always taken a lot of guesswork and detective work to figure out what the bug was based only on the callstack).

Re:Wrong priorities

[HiThere]

When I asked my doctor about that, he said it was ok with the HIPAA because the feds had certified it as compliant.

Re:Wrong priorities

[HiThere]

An anonymous coward makes an assertion that says lots of other posters were wrong, stupid, or incompetent. Should I believe him?

OK, you are actually Anonymous Coward #52254331, but this doesn't provide me a feeling of certainty in your integrity. I do understand why you might not want to admit who you work for, however. (Several reasons.)

Re:Wrong priorities

[Anonymous Coward]

Here's an idea - maybe reading Slashdot comments doesn't count as "reasonable and informed".

Re:Wrong priorities

[U2xhc2hkb3QgU3Vja3M]

It does explain your seemingly crazy post.

Just update your computer and stop whining!

[slasher999]

These complaints are coming from the same noisy minority who will ignorantly blame Microsoft or anyone else when their computer is infected by some exploit that would have been prevented had they kept it up to date.

YASP (Yet Another Stupid Petition)

[BarbaraHudson]

The EFF has zero enforcement powers. And petitions are useless. Real change happens in the courts, or by you changing your own behavior so as to not buy their products. Petitions are for slackers.

Re:YASP (Yet Another Stupid Petition)

[thegarbz]

Real change happens in the courts,

That's cute, especially given Microsoft's history in the courts, especially on the losing side.

Re:YASP (Yet Another Stupid Petition)

[Anonymous Coward]

The EFF has zero enforcement powers. And petitions are useless. Real change happens in the courts, or by you changing your own behavior so as to not buy their products. Petitions are for slackers.

Real change happens in many places, often slowly enough that it is not immediately apparent.

Your absolute statements above are - while not strictly false - not particularly helpful, either.

Re: YASP (Yet Another Stupid Petition)

[AgNO3]

The EFF has lawyers and act in a fashion similar to the ACLU. They have the legal expertise to sue or present proper legal arguments to the DOJ for the DOJ to investigate with public pressure and oversight to insure a more fair investigation.

Re:YASP (Yet Another Stupid Petition)

[fustakrakich]

The courts aren't supposed to change anything. They exist to settle disputes. And petitioning has changed some legislation in some places where the elected officials are failing. I think we should petition to reduce their salaries. We can do it, you know.

Re:YASP (Yet Another Stupid Petition)

[simplypeachy]

After successfully updating Adobe Reader on a customer's laptop, Windows 10 politely informed me that the "default PDF handler was corrupted". It was not. Windows 10 then automatically set the default PDF reader to Edge. Real change happens in the courts, then a few years later is forgotten.

Re:YASP (Yet Another Stupid Petition)

[BarbaraHudson]

So what's stopping all these slackers from going to small claims court when their system fails to boot after the upgrade?

Re: YASP (Yet Another Stupid Petition)

[BarbaraHudson]

100,000 small claims court claims would be quicker, use up more of Microsoft's resources, and get money into the hands of the victims instead of the lawyers and the victims getting a $5 voucher.

Re:YASP (Yet Another Stupid Petition)

[BarbaraHudson]

The courts would just be enforcing existing tort law. Microsoft caused the user damage, they should pay. No new laws needed, no judicial over-reach.

Re: YASP (Yet Another Stupid Petition)

[BarbaraHudson]

Hardly. When all everyone does is post to others who feel the same, it's just an echo chamber. A feel-good exercise. One of the guys who founded the 1% protests in New York admitted that in the end it was ineffective in achieving change.

Re:YASP (Yet Another Stupid Petition)

[netkgb]

Doing something is better than doing nothing.

Re:YASP (Yet Another Stupid Petition)

[sjames]

The EFF has lawyers for a reason.

Re:YASP (Yet Another Stupid Petition)

[BarbaraHudson]

Doing something is better than doing nothing.

Really? If you know it's going to be ineffective and you do it anyway because you don't want to do any of the more effective approaches outlined elsewhere, what does that say about your commitment?

Re:YASP (Yet Another Stupid Petition)

[BarbaraHudson]

And your point is? What law will you tell the lawyers that Microsoft is breaking?

The license you agreed to allows them to do this. Don't like it - turn off updated until after July 29th, or switch to another OS. Problem solved.

Re:YASP (Yet Another Stupid Petition)

[sjames]

Actually, I don't do windows. It has been a pain for people I know, however. Naturally, my point is that pursuant to your suggestion that real change happens in courts, the EFF has lawyers (people who specialize in making change happen in court). That kinda refutes the whole EFF has no power.

Re:YASP (Yet Another Stupid Petition)

[BarbaraHudson]

If you actually looked at the EFF Victories Page, you'll see that all those "victories" no longer mean anything.

For example, their "win" against pen registers is obsolete because now you have skyhooks that can track ALL phones in an area.

Re:YASP (Yet Another Stupid Petition)

[sjames]

So Julius Caesar was a nobody because Rome is gone?

Meanwhile, perhaps you should look at the more recent wins, not the oldest.

Re:YASP (Yet Another Stupid Petition)

[BarbaraHudson]

That's all they had posted on their victories page. Pretty thin gruel.

Re:YASP (Yet Another Stupid Petition)

[sjames]

You should check your browser, there were a lot more (and far more recent). I found them following your link.

I think it would be interesting...

[Razed By TV]

to see either a class action lawsuit, or investigations into Microsoft committing unauthorized computer access / installing software for the purposes of spying on people.

Lets be real now, what did MS do wrong?

[Anonymous Coward]

Anything and everything related to Windows 10 is stated plainly in the EULA.

First year law school stuff here folks. A EULA is a contract, and MS is just doing what they stated they have the right to do as per the agreement spelled out quite plainly before someone hits "accept".

Any investigations by the EFF's part or even lawsuits will be smacked into oblivion. In fact, the EULA forces all claims into arbitration anyway, so any judge who has gotten beyond first semester in law would find the EFF culpable for vexatious litigation, and find for MS.

Re:Lets be real now, what did MS do wrong?

[grumbel5969]

Could you point me to the part in the Windows 7 EULA that says that the system will randomly self destruct and replace itself with a different OS at some random point in the future?

Re:Lets be real now, what did MS do wrong?

[ledow]

You should have stayed on for the second year of law school. They would have told you that a contract cannot be automatically upgraded unless reasonable and the reasonable opportunity given to back out or otherwise not agree to the terms, that all contracts have to be reasonable anyway, that contracts are meetings of minds, and that unfair contracts will be interpreted in favour of the party that didn't draw them up (i.e. the user).

A EULA is also not specifically a contract, though it may form part of one, but a grant of licence to use a copyrighted work. If the terms to use that copyrighted work include, say, automatic control over your computer, upgrades, telemetry, etc. then it could easily be interpreted as overbearing for a copyright licence. It's also certainly not an automatically binding contract, and is override by basic statutory rights and contract law. Just because you agree to "give your firstborn" does not mean that's legal - even if you WANT to do that! And changing the goalposts later never goes down well in court.

And I agreed the Windows 7 EULA, not the Windows 10 one. What if I disagree with the Windows 10 one? Are they trying to trick me into agreeing by other methods (i.e. automatically upgrading me?), giving me no reasonable option, etc.? That's basically duress.

Personally, I think MS are on a hiding to nothing, and they'll "get away" with it for the most part. And then when Windows 10 becomes "pay only", and Windows 11 is treated the same way, they'll be a comeback that everyone else will have seen coming.

All its shown me is that MS hasn't changed one bit in its existence and all the posturing of recent years is just a trap to force you to upgrade. I certainly shan't be buying MS licences for my own use and, by extension, I avoid and recommend against their cloud services, office products, browsers, and even their consoles, phones, tablets and software services (though, let's be honest, you hardly need to avoid that shite).

Chromebooks are going down well with everyone asking me about "cheap laptops". Office compatibility for home use is barely an issue any more. Cloud services have plenty of alternatives. Most people have seen iPads and Macs and understand "they aren't Windows" and it doesn't stop people nowadays. I get just as many Apple Pages job applications as Microsoft Word (and when its for a techy position, I file those in the Deleted Items folder appropriately).

Here's hoping it's just a swansong for Microsoft, but if we can screw them to the floor with an EU parliament investigation or similar, maybe we can completely remove their influence more quickly.

Re:Lets be real now, what did MS do wrong?

[whoever57]

And I agreed the Windows 7 EULA, not the Windows 10 one. What if I disagree with the Windows 10 one? Are they trying to trick me into agreeing by other methods (i.e. automatically upgrading me?), giving me no reasonable option, etc.? That's basically duress.

You think that Microsoft has not got its legal ducks in a row? I seriously doubt that. It's possible that either the Windows 7 EULA includes sufficient terms for Microsoft to do the upgrade, or, somewhere along the line of updates from Microsoft, hidden in the small print, there were terms that allow the Windows 10 upgrade.

It might be more interesting to look at the legality of this in the EU, where contract trickery is not so well tolerated by the courts.

Re:Lets be real now, what did MS do wrong?

[Insanity Defense]

A EULA is a contract, and MS is just doing what they stated they have the right to do as per the agreement spelled out quite plainly before someone hits "accept".

Really? Every time I have bought software it was termed as a sale and had a receipt for the sale. A License/Contract was never mentioned. I doubt also that the retailer has a contract with Microsoft to enable them to sign a contract for MS. Normally the terms of the contract are agreed to BEFORE payment is tendered, they are not normally presented AFTER payment.

Re:Lets be real now, what did MS do wrong?

[cfalcon]

It's under section 7, Internet-Based Services. The line for Windows Update says "To enable the proper functioning of the Windows Update service in software (if you use it), updates or downloads to the Windows Update service will be required from time to time..."- it also mentions that they will be downloaded without further notice to you. The second part isn't important, but the first part is- it means that Windows Update can essentially become any manner of beast that they want, *should you choose to use it*. Or at least, they would probably be able to use that in a legal dispute about all this Windows 10 trick-upgrade bullshit.

Re:Lets be real now, what did MS do wrong?

[cfalcon]

> And I agreed the Windows 7 EULA, not the Windows 10 one. What if I disagree with the Windows 10 one?

Then it tries to back out all the million changes it just made and put you back on 7, lol.

> Are they trying to trick me into agreeing by other methods (i.e. automatically upgrading me?), giving me no reasonable option, etc.?

I think that's the track you'd have to walk down, but I'm pretty sure they have thought of it and have a pretty high confidence that they could defend it. The fact that Windows 10 can break you on attempted upgrade OR downgrade may be a solid attack vector, however, as maybe could an argument about downtime, etc? Who knows, its all jackdickery until someone with standing files a lawsuit.

Think about how vast the profits from the Windows 10 adware must be, for it to come to this. Microsoft considers it worthwhile to upset users, break people's computers who are using them in life-or-death situations, risk multiple valid legal angles, and absolutely infuriate a group of highly technical users who see this stuff and are busy switching their friends and small businesses to Linux. All that lost business, all that legal risk, and possibly even blood on their hands, all for those sweet sweet adbucks. It must just be so fucking many adbucks man, so fucking many.

Re:Lets be real now, what did MS do wrong?

[nomadic]

Courts have long upheld a party's right to unilaterally modify a procedural term in a contract if they explicitly retain that right; in any event, if the agreement is to purchase a computer operating system, and updates are part of that computer operating system, the user doesn't get to dictate how MS is providing it. Like if I commit to a year-long HBO subscription, I can't argue that cancelling my favorite show is a Also "unfair contracts" are not prohibited under law; you may be thinking of "unconscionable" contracts, and there is a high burden to meet that level. Contracts certainly don't have to be reasonable, and it's ambiguous contracts, not unfair ones, that are interpreted in favor of the non-drafter.

Forced upgrade

[Bruinwar]

It happened last night. Right at the start of my son's LAN party. One kid was on my personal desktop, just got in Overwatch & they called me downstairs. "Preparing to install Windows 10. Do not turn off your computer". Fuck that, one kid without a computer for the evening was unacceptable. I immediately hit the reset button. Luckily it booted right into Windows 7 where, for better or worse, I downloaded & ran Never10.

Linux is not an option for me. The software I run for work no longer has a version for Linux. I am stuck with MS for now & likely will be installing Win10 in the next few weeks anyhow.

Re:Forced upgrade

[cfalcon]

> Linux is not an option for me. The software I run for work no longer has a version for Linux.

This is the kind of lock-in that is just so hard to fight. Most of the visible fight is on the side of games, because gamers are ultimately trendsetters in hardware and software, and are numerous, but all the myriad productivity business applications that are coded to only run on Windows is this death-grip on the software industry. If you absolutely had to, you might be able to VM it, or find a way to run it under WINE, but your most likely path is to just use Windows, and then buy another computer for your other needs. This is a win/lose for you: you get privacy and a real OS, but you have to maintain double compies. Microsoft, on the other hand, is grinning ear to ear.

Re:Forced upgrade

[Bruinwar]

cool, thx.

Re:Forced upgrade

[Bruinwar]

Yep, I got a disabled brother who's been "Microsoft free since 1998" who's keeps telling "use WINE!" but i t really is not practical & makes no sense as I would still be using Windows. VM is the same, what's the difference? I really don't see it changing anytime soon.

Last grasp

[iamacat]

Microsoft must be truly desperate to risk this much bad publicity and user alienation. I guess they got p0wned on mobile and MacBooks/Chromebooks, coupled with various cloud software, cast the need of anyone to own a Windows PC into doubt.

So they must have decided that they HAVE to defragment their install base and edge into mobile through tablets - or die. If you are a committed Windows user, you should probably hope that they succeed. Otherwise you will be left, at best, with poorly maintained platform run by a diminished company.

On the other hand, we don't personally owe anything to Microsoft and should just move to platforms that best suit our needs.

Re:Last grasp

[Anonymous Coward]

Microsoft is desperate to prevent Windows 7 from becoming the next XP.

    Computers have gotten to the point where they're sufficiently powerful enough for the average user (email, Facebook, shopping, etc.). And enough people know at least one tech savvy friend who can fix their computer for them when it's fucked. This combined with the increasing usage of mobile has killed desktop and laptop sales. This means that people just buying a new computer doesn't convert people to the next version of Windows as fast as it used too, and people dislike 8 and 10 enough that they're actively avoiding buying new computers to keep 7.

This has made Microsoft collectively shit their pants at the idea of having to support an OS decades beyond it's original end of support like they did with XP. They will do ANYTHING to get people off 7 and onto 10 because any bad publicity is still cheaper than having to support 7 for the next 20 years.

Re:Last grasp

[PinkyGigglebrain]

While I agree that MS must be getting desperate I have to disagree about the "user alienation".

Most users are already OWNED outright by MS, they don't know about the alternatives, or don't care enough to switch because they only play solitaire, or don't want to switch at home because they have to use it at work, and it would just be too hard to learn how to use a different OS, whaaaa!!!!!!

Lets face it; other than users who read /. and the other tech forums most people don't have a clue. They just use what ever OS came with their system and whatever software that runs on it and everyone else they know has.

Unless the companies that create the software and configure the systems start supporting/distributing other OSs on a large scale nothing is going to change anytime soon.

just my $.02

Re:Last grasp

[cfalcon]

> any bad publicity is still cheaper than having to support 7 for the next 20 years

Maybe they could release a sequel to Windows 7 and charge for it. Windows 7 2? I don't know what you would call it....

Sigh.

[ledow]

Vote with feet.

Problem solved.

Re:Sigh.

[ledow]

No, here voting with your feet thus means "stop buying software reliant on Windows".

The home user scenario has been sorted for a long time, especially with cloud services for things like office suites.

But if your company hasn't learned in the last 25 years to stop tying themselves into Microsoft, they have only themselves to blame. Especially in the post-ActiveX era where you can just do everything in a web browser and the back-end hardly matters.

If you're still buying into that shite "because we have to have Microsoft", you cooked your own goose, nobody else. Maybe you should have looked into standardised APIs, cross-platform compatibility, and web-based services (even hosted in-house on Microsoft servers!) 10 years ago, when everyone else did.

You keep using that word.

[Anonymous Coward]

“You keep using that word, I do not think it means what you think it means”

Someone might want to look up what the word malicious actually means, and while you're at it have a look at "hyperbole".

Re:You keep using that word.

[HiThere]

Actually, I think that malicious does plausibly describe the reported actions of Microsoft. Now whether they actually performed those actions I can't say, since I haven't used anything from them since around 2000.

While I agree that they probably didn't do it with the intent to harm, there is reasonable evidence that they acted with reckless disregard of the fact which they knew or had reason to know, would harm their customers.

Not surprising

[SurenEnfiajyan]

Not surprising, Microsoft is a legal criminal organization.

Hmm...

[fahrbot-bot]

... people are being tricked or forced into upgrading to Windows 10 ...

Judges recently ruled raped women can sue an enabling web site. Can we get this extended to cover what Microsoft is doing to our PCs? In this case they're both the aggressor *and* enabling web site.

No means No Microsoft.

Does Windows10 == systemd? Redhat == MS?

[walterbyrd]

Seems like the same idea. Most users hate it, but it is being maliciously forced on users for the sake of the vendors.

Re:Does Windows10 == systemd? Redhat == MS?

[HiThere]

No. Many users hate systemd, but most users don't even notice it.

That said, it is the same kind of change in a much more restrained way.

Is Windows 10 Pro "better", WRT control?

[NotQuiteReal]

Still on Win7 Pro here. No forced updates, doesn't ask, wasn't invited for the free "upgrade".

Does Windows 10 Pro have more settings to control things?

Re:Is Windows 10 Pro "better", WRT control?

[Rockoon]

Probably you simply lack the free disk space required on your system drive. Its silently waiting for the moment that you have 1 byte more than the threshold.

Re:Is Windows 10 Pro "better", WRT control?

[Billly Gates]

The professional one does. You can select an update schedule or you can enable defere updates which means you will go on the business channel which is every 3 months and just get security updates.

Re:SAME SOLUTION DAILY MICRODOT

[Anonymous Coward]

Home routers are basically all Linux.

Android is Linux.

It's already a *nix world. Mac is a walled garden version of *nix... same bash shell but many
obstacles and registrations to even use XQuartz/XCode etc.

Mac OS X is the gay way to get away from Windows. For home users the best thing to do is multi-boot.
Every day surfing the web and whatnot are much better in Linux. As stated above, YUMI lets you do it
simply all on a USB flash drive.

Nice post.

Re:Too bad...

[cfalcon]

No, you own Windows 7. You also have a license to operate Windows 7. They cannot change this contract at any time. The WoW example is a really bad one, because with WoW you only own the client, and you must agree to their latest EULA in order to connect to their server- but you are free to continue running the WoW 1.0 client that you own for as long as you like. There's just nothing to connect it to.

Re:Precedent

[cfalcon]

> I am forced to upgrade my Mac and iPhone all the time.

Like you can fucking turn that off you know. All of it. Do you even settings bro?

Bully pulpit?

[Anonymous Coward]

What the EFF *does* bring to the table is a (relatively) big megaphone. Major media will pay more attention to them than they will to us individually. Maybe.

Re:The focus is wrong

[HiThere]

Different people have different reasons for not wanting to upgrade, and some wouldn't object if it weren't being forced at an inconvenient time.

FWIW, my wife always wants to postpone upgrades as long as possible. I doubt that she's alone. She just doesn't like having to learn new icons, new control positions, etc. And I don't find her objections unreasonable even though the changes are rarely so stupid as to flummox me for very long. (P.S.: She's on Kubuntu.)

Re:Precedent

[psergiu]

You actually cannot disable them on iOS 9 and newer.
That's the reason i still keep my parents and in-laws iPads still on iOS 8.

Re:Precedent

[cfalcon]

Settings > iTunes & App Stores, disable "Updates" under "Automatic Downloads".

If you already automatically downloaded one and it is nagging you, go delete it under "Storage".

microsoft's response:

[Black Parrot]

"the upgrade window is part of the operating system"

Arguably illegal in Canada

[davecb]

http://www.advocatedaily.com/aaron-edgar-microsoft-risks-running-afoul-of-anti-spam-legislation.html

To summarize, the company needs informed consent. A customer's saying "no" is a binding denial of consent.

Re:SAME SOLUTION DAILY MICRODOT

[HiThere]

Whether that works depends on what you're doing. Some specialized software is only available for certain operating systems. What makes this really nice is that some of it may work well on some version of MSWind, but not work at all on MSWind10.

Ok everyone!

[yoshi_mon]

Here is what you can do for now. Run Win7. It is a perfectly fine OS. Yes MS has packported the spyware, aka "telemetry", to the system and how do you fix that? You manually monitor your system(s) for what updates are on them. Use this script: wmic qfe get >C:\updates.txt

Run that batch file as admin and then search for KB3035583 (the Win10 installer) and KB3021917 (spyware) and if they are there remove them.

Is this annoying and bad? Yes. Is it doable on a large scale where you have to admin hundreds or thousands of machines? Likely not. But if you just need your own personal machine that runs a stable Win64 OS then Win7 still is a decent system and you can fix it to run just fine.

Let us all stop freaking out until we see how this shakes down after Win10 goes "not free" and see if Redmond has another epiphany like they did after Vista and releases a real OS again.

Investigate this

[Waccoon]

If it's true the EULA is a copyright agreement and not a true contract, would it apply to the installation of the software, and not just the usage? It may be a legal problem to install the OS first and then make people accept/deny the EULA just to regain control of their computer. I think if MS was forced to to present the EULA first before installation, there would be fewer problems with "accidental" upgrades.

Given how many horror stories I've heard of the rollback feature not working, and people needing to use their PC in a hurry, I'd imagine there are a lot of people who just accepted the Win10 upgrade because they felt they had no choice or refusing it would cause their PC to blow up. I know I sure as hell wouldn't trust a rollback procedure, especially after an update to Win10 on my dad's media center ended up automatically deleting a bunch of applications with no warning.

Wrong version

[dbIII]

2.1

Let me see if I understand

[ausekilis]

So... people have petitioned the Executive branch of the US government about a nonprofit organization to "investigate" a private corporation.

I feel I'm missing something here. Change.org was about government transparency and action, such as the petition to build the death star, or classify westboro baptist church as a hate group (thereby removing any federal funding for 'religious organization'). Where is the link between the Obama administration and a nonprofit organization?
I get why the EFF could be involved in a lawsuit against MS, but they likely aren't going to stir up crap here... nor do they have any investigative powers.
What exactly are they investigating for? Are they doing anything that illegal? if that EULA is enforcable as a contract, by clicking "ok" you've agreed to MS's terms.

Google pushes the GApps with every android device, all of which phone home in some way shape or form and collect your data. Even better, they are next to impossible to remove. So MS is doing the same thing with the desktop. Why is it okay for my phone, which I use many times a day to look things up and communicate with others, and not my desktop that I use every few days?

Not that I agree with either practice, but if something pisses you off, it should piss you off no matter who is doing it.

Update - not Upgrade

[zero_out]

I wish people would stop calling it an upgrade. That implies that it's better than its predecessors, which this clearly is not - when compared to Windows 7, at least. Windows 10 is only an update, which means that it's newer.

Now everyone, please upgrade your adjective.

Stupid is as stupid does

[phorm]

I have friends/family who are the same way about their ISP's. One of the local ISP's has been underperforming for years, and technical support # pretty much blames any issues on the user / users' equipment.
I actually called them on it after being hired ($100/h) by a second person for the same issue. First thing out of the guy's mouth "everything is fine with our mailserver, your computer must be having issues, have it serviced." So then I explained I was the tech, and asked why THEIR server was returning "bad mailbox" errors periodically when I tested mail commands via telnet. The answer then switched to "we're upgrading."

So my friends, family, and customers all know that this ISP is crappy, but as soon as their contract is up our conversation is like.
"Still having internet issues. Your contract is up, so why not switch"
"Oh, I uh, signed up for another two years because they were offering a free Xbox"

fuuuuuuuuuuuu********

How many people need to sign?

[CaptainDork]

The other day it was 200.

Today it's 1000.

This goddam petition is bloating, so clearly, Microsoft is behind it.

Wrong organization

[AnalogDiehard]

If you want an organization with teeth to investigate software, call the Business Software Alliance. Oh wait, Microsoft owns them...

Apple?

[synoge]

Where are all the whiners about Apple and their practices. Numerous apps on iOS that will not install unless you are on newest version. There is a reason fragmentation happens and Microsoft finally starting to follow the rest of the industry and all of sudden everyone is upset.