Slashdot Mirror
Leaked Docs Provide An Unprecedented Look At Income Of Uber Drivers (buzzfeed.com)
In 2013, Uber told the Wall Street Journal that a typical Uber driver takes in more than $100,000 in annual gross fares. The ride-hail platform, which has shared similar estimates many times since, says that the company's efforts toward its drivers is a pathway to a modest, more attainable American dream. Turns out, the it has been exaggerating. According to BuzzFeed News, which obtained leaked documents, drivers in some markets don't take home much more than service workers at major chains like Walmart when it comes to net pay. According to the publication, drivers in three major U.S. markets -- Denver, Detroit, and Houston -- earned less than an average of $13.25 an hour after expenses. From the report:Based on these calculations, it's possible to estimate that Uber drivers in late 2015 earned approximately $13.17 per hour after expenses in the Denver market (which includes all of Colorado), $10.75 per hour after expenses in the Houston area, and $8.77 per hour after expenses in the Detroit market, less than any earnings figure previously released by the company.
Of course the exaggerated. I've been watching companies do this my whole life, it seems par for the course.
The large print giveth, and the small print taketh away. Because of this, I would never work for a franchise outfit like Uber; instead I would file a 1099 and use my own SSN for the business number (sole proprietorship) and actually work for myself.
C|N>K
If you start out talking about "100k in Gross Fares" then reveal that number was wrong, you need to tell us what the actual GROSS FARE was. Switching to take hour earnings, after expenses is the mark of an incompetent statistician, and a poor journalist. At the very least.
For those of you that did not read the article, they claimed that expenses were 25-33%, so at 100k, that would be somewhere between 66 and 75k, assuming 60 hour week that would have been $22 an hour, far more than the current claims of $13.25 (which sound exaggerated to me.)
excitingthingstodo.blogspot.com
great deal considering a lot of service workers pay for their car out of pocket. Same goes for a smartphone and the service which is another write off for uber drivers
is really expensive. Being a no-fault state makes things cost a bit more but the state has a mandatory "uninsured motorist" clause in all policies so that people who don't want to pay for insurance can be covered by those who do. It's something like $300-400 per car per year. I suspect the number is higher for commercial drivers.
Looks like they make less than they do driving a taxi full-time in Denver....
"The median annual Taxi Driver salary in Denver, CO is $33,803, as of May 31, 2016, with a range usually between $28,077-$41,255 not including bonus and benefit information"
http://www1.salary.com/CO/Denv...
At $13.17 an hour, 40 hours a week, 52 weeks a year, an Uber drive in Denver would pull in $27,394 at that rate, and that's WITHOUT benefits and bonuses.
There's a lot that I' assuming here, like a person working strictly full time as an Uber driver.....but if you were going to work strictly as a driver, you'd probably be better off driving a taxi.
If you post as Anonymous Coward, don't expect a reply.
I used to track all my DoorDash deliveries to a T. That gig earns $11.21 an hour in the Minneapolis/Saint Paul market on average. I'd be happy to share my data spreadsheet with anyone interested.
...typical Uber driver takes in more than $100,000 in annual gross fares.
Are they saying that the typical driver brings in $100,000 to Uber? If you take an Uber or taxi, the fare is brought in by the driver, then his pay is deducted from that.
--- Keep the choice with the user..
you can buy your own car to use on uber. leasing is easier when you do your taxes
They won't buy you a car but they're eager to sell you one on dubious credit terms..
And did you exchange a walk on part in the war for a lead role in a cage? - Pink Floyd.
Cherry picked?
What?!?? You mean those signs by the side of the road or emails I get saying I can make $80K a year in my spare time doing this or that are not telling me the whole truth??? I am shocked.
They won't buy you a car but they're eager to sell you one on dubious credit terms..
Actually, what they do is hook you up with a sleazy lease company. They will give you a lease even if you don't "deserve" one because you're a bad risk, but the rates are high, and they want way too much to buy out the vehicle at the end of the lease period. Presumably since times are tough there's no trouble finding people willing to work as repo men, so it's a fairly secure business model. People aren't going to shit up a car they're using as an Uber taxi.
"You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
Did anyone really think that being an Uber driving was the new American Dream??
About a year ago, Uber was advertising heavily on Craigslist for drivers in my area. But if you did the math, based on the numbers they put in their ads, you would have to drive 70 hours a week to make the amount of money they claimed. I see now that the amount of money they are claiming you can make per week has been cut in half.
I will take a job that let's me make my own schedules based on my socioeconomic needs: I'm having a bad time financially, I can work longer hours for decent overtime (do they even pay overtime in the US?). I want a rested month, be it 1, 2 or 3 per year, I do part-time. The number of companies offering these two benefits at once. Not to mention some people really enjoy driving in urban traffic. I highly doubt people at Walmart enjoy their jobs half as much as the average. And they admit it's a modest American dream. You know, not one that entails being in the top 1% but actually providing a decent service to society through value your own hands create and not some stupid stock market gambling, seed round handout, a flat out buyout or IPO profits, like them vaporware startups. These people are actually doing something only humans can do safely, at least for the next 10 to 20 years.
so you pay this first car on time, raise your credit and get the next car on better terms. not like leasing a 20 year old NYC taxi for $2000 a month which is what cab drivers are forced to do
Ah, the return of the company store.
Really, given the facts on display and a history of the 19th century only a few clicks away, why exactly does Uber still have defenders?
"I know I will be modded down for this": where's the option '-1, Asking for it'?
so you pay this first car on time, raise your credit and get the next car on better terms.
Or you don't make enough to survive and pay for the lease driving for uber unless you spend every waking hour doing it, and uber knew they were grossly exaggerating so they're party to your suffering.
I'm an outspoken proponent of things like uber, I'm just not sure it's uber. I still cheer their legal victories since it's good for their competitors, too
"You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
or you share the car with another uber driver. i know a few and they make decent money. one of them is on vacation right now across the ocean. nice vacation too. another driver i know shares a honda accord with someone else so it's used almost 24 hour a day. he's got his own car but doesn't want to use it.
This completely invalidates the analysis. Colorado is huge and I'm sure there are several small cities way outside of Denver that skew the statistics.
I've used Uber in some small towns (like Idaho Falls, ID) where it was basically just one dude with his old Prius. He just sits at home and waits for Uber to ding and jumps in his car. How much money he's making "per hour" isn't really a relevant metric...
I worked the same - fast food, then a retail outlet. Not the best jobs - totally agree. But much better than driving my car around picking up people and hoping that they aren't smokers who will make my car smell (bad smoke allergies) just from their clothes, drunks who may puke in the seat, etc. I'm sure 90% of fares are fine, but the other 10% - heck I wouldn't want them. Better to work fast food or retail.
Would it of been?
Driving people around is a marginally skilled luxury service that in theory a teenager with 1-3 years of personal driving experience could do. Heck, a 20 year old born and raised in an area can probably do it more competently than an older "more experienced" driver who hasn't lived in the area that long.
This is like the outrage that McDonalds workers, people who make $2 hamburgers, are the lowest men and women on the food industry totem poll in terms of wages. Forget automation; if your job is something that a 19 year old high school dropout who fits the stereotypes can do as competently as a "20 year veteran," you aren't going to make much money because the barrier to entry and value of experience is minimal.
It's like going back 100 years and complaining that "senior ditch digger" doesn't pay substantially more than "junior ditch digger."
Here is BuzzFeed article listing more information on how they arrived at their numbers
https://www.buzzfeed.com/jsvin...
They're going to be sorry they spent that money on vacation when that Accord wears out from extreme use.
Laws are rules for the court, but merely a bottom bar to hit for life. Think beyond laws in your actions always.
I learned that there are often two sets of books in businesses: one for the public/Auditors, and one for the top executives/owners. You can guess the numbers reflected in the public books. It's funny how the 2 books never seem to match. Of course with vulnerabilities, people's lack of tech security matters, plus private/government installed backdoors (added to or as part of software products/OS), documents like this will be leaked with increasing frequency. And the revelation will be shocking to those who believed the marketing hype. If these folks want to keep their private set of financial books secret, they'll have to learn to go back to paper, or at least use a set of isolated computers that never touch the Internet.
"Imagination is more important than knowledge" - Einstein
What Uber is saying is true, from a certain point of view. In this case yes it's possible for an Uber driver to earn in gross fares $100,000 per year.
That's what they say about the construction trades, which has an acute shortage of skilled workers. As a plumber/electrician/carpenter, you too can make $100K+ per year. The fine print is that you will need to work 60 to 80 hours per week and/or start your own company to make that kind of money. Most people are unwilling to put in that much time for a well-paid job. I had a coworker who left a $50K-per-year government IT job to start his own roofing company and makes $10K per week in the San Francisco Bay Area.
The job market is exactly that - a market that sets wages.
Rare, highly sought skills command high salaries. Driving a car is not one of those skills.
No one should expect a person driving people around in a car to make $100k a year. That's crazy.
If people willingly want to work for Uber at those wages - what's the issue?
Because they're making money devaluing yours. It should be plainly obvious that any business model that relies on having desperate people "trade" the equity in their vehicles for less cash than the equity is not much different than loan sharking.
sounds like you've never driven a honda. it's not like a GM or a chrysler
Really, given the facts on display and a history of the 19th century only a few clicks away, why exactly does Uber still have defenders?
Because the taxi racket has been enjoying its monopoly for too long. Where I am, we have some of the highest taxi prices in Canada while many the taxi drivers are near minimum wage (because the drivers rent the licenses from the people who could actually afford them). An Uber driver told me he makes more money on Uber than he did driving a cab, although I didn't ask if that factored in vehicle wear'n'tear.
Everyone I know had pretty much stopped taking cabs because they were so unreliable. You could end up waiting an hour longer than claimed, or the cab just wouldn't show. Uber has effectively brought taxis back into our lives as a viable option.
From everything I've heard, Uber takes advantage of its workers and uses some pretty shady tactics. I support government regulation to ensure drivers can make a decent wage. But they've disrupted a market that desperately needed disrupting and have noticeably improved my personal standard of living.
So given the choice between Uber and the previous status quo? Yeah, I'm an Uber Defender, if a cautious one.
Last post!
If the minimum wage is to be a "livable" wage, then that minimum wage is way too low in many places - and too high in others. That's the problem with a Federal minimum wage - it doesn't make sense in the vast majority of These United States. Leave it to each State to set its own minimum. Which, ideally, should be regional - for example, San Francisco should probably be $17/hr to be livable, but down in Gilroy it could be $10/hr.
Browsing at +1 - no ACs, I ignore their posts. So refreshing!
It says on the cover "Human Resources"
It's a cookbook.
A COOOOOKBOOOOK!!!!11!!!
the preceding comment is my own and in no way reflects the opinion of the Joint Chiefs of Staff
However with the "gig economy" you are your own boss, and have greater control of your hours and what you do. So that $13.00 an hour isn't going to make you rich, It is profit. Plus you can work more hours to make up the difference too. Or work a job and have this as a part time supplemental job.
If something is so important that you feel the need to post it on the internet... It probably isn't that important.
Hey my jeep had 371,+++ miles on it when the fuel pump went out because it sat for too long with not enough fuel in the tank for a winter. So not all Chrysler corporation vehicle don't keep running. Granted it was a rusty pile of crap which is why I didn't replace the fuel pump, one apart all that stuff was never going back together, but up until I basically did it in on accident it ran great. then again that engine was the 4.0L inline 6 that was not a Chrysler designed motor and it didn't have one of the trash Chrysler designed automatic transmissions.
Time to offend someone
Are there any outlying suburbs left in Detroit? I remember reading a while back that the city wanted to shrink the footprint and was bulldozing entire neighborhoods that only had a few families living in them to do so.
Any vehicle will wear out from being driven 24 hours a day.
Laws are rules for the court, but merely a bottom bar to hit for life. Think beyond laws in your actions always.
I don't think anyone in history has said that minimum == plenty.
Interesting what you did there, calling the $13.00 after expenses a "profit". What's left out in the expenses is the salary for the contractor. That $13.00 is their take home pay after the expenses of running their car. So, if you have zero living expenses and don't eat, then sure, call it profit. But since Uber drivers are humans, they actually need food and shelter. Some of us also think that all humans should have a decent standard of living and have a decent work/life balance, not just those of us that can make six figures surfing the web all day and occasionally banging out a few lines of code.
$13.00 take home pay equates to roughly $26k/year (using the standard 2000 hour work year that every software person I know uses to compute their "salary" based on their consulting rate). The poverty line in the US is roughly $23k.
tl;dr: the $13.00 is not profit, it's salary; $13/hr won't even let you save and the US deems that salary the bare minimum to just scrape by. Working more destroys the work/life balance.
-Chris
I understand that drivers can't count on tips to be consistent or even provided. It's also common to tip Uber drivers. I don't see these articles taking tipping into account. Probably fair since Uber probably didn't assume any tip in their $100k figure. I'd find it interesting to hear how tipping might change that hourly wage figure.
So this is meant to be an anti-Uber argument. To some extent it is because it suggests that Uber overstates what drivers can earn per hour.
On the other hand, it indicates that in most markets Uber drivers can earn a living wage and even in the most competitive markets they can cover expenses and beat the minimum wage.
I suggest this is a valid choice for Uber drivers. It doesn't suggest that you would leave a good manufacturing job with benefits to drive people around, but is that realistic in any case?
I actually had a lower estimate on what could be made doing this, and would have bet that many drivers don't earn enough to cover the wear and tear on their vehicles. Clearly this isn't the case.
I feel less guilty about using Uber after reading this.
The problem with quotes on the internet, is that nobody bothers to check their veracity. -- Abraham Lincoln
Detroit is almost all out lying suburbs. It is the city itself where the situation you describe has been going on for the most part.
BlameBillCosby.com
Really, given the facts on display and a history of the 19th century only a few clicks away, why exactly does Uber still have defenders?
I think Uber are a bunch of cocks but I also think that Taxi medallion programs are bullshit. I'm happy to cheer for Uber's legal victories against them. If people mistake that for cheering for Uber, so be it.
"You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
Makes me wonder how much of the $13/hour will remain at the end of the day.
Laws are rules for the court, but merely a bottom bar to hit for life. Think beyond laws in your actions always.
You're not getting paid the same amount though, because working in a fast food restaurant you're not wearing out your car.. a car that you now depend on for an income.
Laws are rules for the court, but merely a bottom bar to hit for life. Think beyond laws in your actions always.
All business owners are humans that need to live. Profit is what you take home from your business, not what you save. The profits an Uber drive makes may be shitty, but that doesn't mean you get to re-define words.
Working more destroys the work/life balance.
You've never been poor, I see. Working 2 30-hour jobs is the normal way you get by. One 60-hour job is better, saves you 1 commute. One 60-hour job where you at least sort of control your hours is much better.
Socialism: a lie told by totalitarians and believed by fools.
Living wage? You know there are still a lot of costs that need to come out of that 'wage' right? In fact, if Uber drivers are in fact contractors, that isn't considered a wage at all, that's considered income for their company as a private driver. Then out of that their company pays vehicle costs, insurance, and health coverage. Their wage can be what is left over. There can't be much left.
Laws are rules for the court, but merely a bottom bar to hit for life. Think beyond laws in your actions always.
I actually had a lower estimate on what could be made doing this, and would have bet that many drivers don't earn enough to cover the wear and tear on their vehicles. Clearly this isn't the case.
Don't be so quick to sell yourself short. Your lower estimate may be correct.
The IRS rate for vehicle depreciation is around $0.50 per mile. Uber is calculating $0.06 a mile in value depreciation and 0.07 per mile in fuel costs and adding in $3000.00 a year in "other" costs. In my opinion, that kind of calculation is clearly designed to muddy the waters in regards to what the actual costs of their drivers are over the long term. If they just used the $0.50 number, which for the entire fleet, is probably closer to the truth, the numbers would look much worse for Uber drivers.
That IRS rate may not be perfect, but there is no corporate agenda driving it's calculation.
I don't always use unix-like operating systems; but when I do, I prefer FreeBSD.
How many "jobs" let you decide you don't feel like working this week with no consequences?
How many "jobs" let you decide on the spur of the moment that, because your plans fell through, you're going to work for an hour and make some extra cash?
Uber isn't a job. It's a way for people who have a stable income to pick up a little extra cash. Uber drivers deserve to be paid practically nothing. They are not taxi drivers, who commit to serve an area on a predictable and reliable schedule, and do not deserve to be compensated as though they were.
-1 Uncomfortable Truth
It's a work vehicle, it's supposed to wear out from extreme use. It's more economical to use a piece of capital equipment 24 hours a day than to let it sit. The faster they use it up, the faster they reclaim their initial investment.
W..w..W - Willy Waterloo washes Warren Wiggins who is washing Waldo Woo.
The 13/hr is supposed to be net after expenses like car maintenance and taxes.
I dunno. My wife's car is an '02 Cherokee, and while there's tons to complain about, the engine's never once quit on us.
Granted, window motors have died repeatedly, the coolant system is fubared, the overall quality of the interior was pretty shit when it was new, but the damn thing runs and runs well.
Linux, you magnificent bastard, I read the fucking manual!
You can't just throw "consent of the people" out there and then couch it with "in theory". Communism is perfect! In theory. :)
I've never met anyone who was happier in a city cab than an Uber. The only "consent" going on is the payoff from the taxi companies to the city.
W..w..W - Willy Waterloo washes Warren Wiggins who is washing Waldo Woo.
The majority of wear and tear on vehicles happens when their fluid and tire rotations/changes are neglected. Keep those things constant, realign the suspension every 3-6 months, and a car would last a long time as a taxi. The issue is companies see those costs as an issue up front, even though long term they would get 2-4 times the use out of it with minimal repairs.
The faster they have to replace it.
Laws are rules for the court, but merely a bottom bar to hit for life. Think beyond laws in your actions always.
How many "jobs" let you decide you don't feel like working this week with no consequences?
UPS is one
When I worked as a loader (in the local Teamsters union) I got 100% medical and dental benefits, got $15/hour and the official policy was that if you don't show up WITHOUT CALLING IN for 4 days in a row, that was grounds for termination (it was *grounds* for termination... but I rarely, if ever, saw anyone fired)
I personally saw, several times, people not call in and not show up for a week at a time. Then they would show up when they needed money.
Because of the benefits and short hours (no full time employment and anything over 4 hours in a single shift is overtime, which was almost never authorized) there were a lot of people who had their own businesses during the day and just use UPS for the benefits.
I was going to school at the time and UPS also kicked in a few thousand per semester for that.... I always recommend UPS to people... it amazes me how many people turn their nose up at it.
My eyes reflect the stars and a smile lights up my face.
The article assumed the car would "wear out" after 250K miles and would need replacing. Although it was based on a pretty crap car of 17K if I remember right. It was part of the expenses that were deducted in arriving at the hourly salary. The main take away was the net from driving for uber was highly dependent on location. Detroit was like 8.79/hr. Sounds like colorado is the place to be for driving for uber.
Is your argument just about definitions? Yes, $13/hr is not very much--comparable to working in fast food. But salary refers to salaried employees. Income is probably a better word here.
That IRS rate may not be perfect, but there is no corporate agenda driving it's calculation.
And you know the IRS isn't really in the business just giving away money out of the kindness of their hearts -- though with things like earned income tax credit and whatnot they have been somewhat transformed into a wealth redistribution scheme so, who knows?
How many "jobs" let you decide you don't feel like working this week with no consequences?
How many "jobs" let you decide on the spur of the moment that, because your plans fell through, you're going to work for an hour and make some extra cash?
Every self employment "job" has those aspects. There are consequences for not working. One does not make the cash and may not be able to pay the bills.
Uber isn't a job. It's a way for people who have a stable income to pick up a little extra cash.
I agree with you that is the original design of the service but there are many drivers are working 60+ hours/week and Uber is their only source of income. If they truly want to go back to the "extra income" model they need to limit work hours. The problem is that Uber would not have enough drivers.
Taxation is, by definition, a wealth redistribution scheme.
How best to set up that scheme is the debate to have.
And, yes, given that our tax system is heavily influenced by corporations, perhaps me saying there was no corporate agenda behind it is not accurate. It's certainly not Uber's specific corporate agenda.
I don't always use unix-like operating systems; but when I do, I prefer FreeBSD.
Uber has zero regulation burden while cabs have a lot of regulation they must comply with. Regulation compliance costs money which is why there is a lower margin for cab drivers.
Not in the slightest. People own the car anyway. They have a few hours in which they would like to make some money - and now, through Uber, they can. They can sit in their car watching a movie or reading a book until a car comes and then make some money. No work. No fuss. Until there is a fare. Then you go, make some money and then go back to your book or movie.
Some people might actually like having a part-time job that they go to WHEN THEY FEEL LIKE IT.
It has its advantages. If you don't like it - don't do it. If you use the service and feel that way then tip better.
If you're scared of your govt then you need to further restrict its powers
Vote 3rd Party in 2016 and beyond
That's the point. You buy a piece of capital equipment to make money. The faster you wear out your equipment, the more money you make. Usage of your capital equipment is a GOOD problem to have.
W..w..W - Willy Waterloo washes Warren Wiggins who is washing Waldo Woo.
but uber, new economy, sharing etc - and besides it is still better than nail polishing business.
Or uranium ore mine in some free market country.
I'm not an expert, but I believe that capital assets in the future have lower value than they would if they were in the present. So you want to wear them out as soon as possible.
Ezekiel 23:20
Exactly my point. That AMC I6 is a great motor, the rest left a lot to be desired, but the AMC designed drive train (transmission, transfer case, etc) was all very good. Mine had plywood for floors and the good old armstrong windows. It even had an aftermarket radio as the original probably went to shit long before I got it.
Time to offend someone
What engine does it have? The 4.0 liter I6 is a great engine for reliability but that wasn't a Chrysler designed engine as it came originally from AMC. It seems like Chrysler mostly left that I6 alone only hacking fuel injection in to it, seriously the intake manifold looks like it is still set up for a carburetor with the awful intake plumbing setup and the taps for the injectors.
Time to offend someone
.. and his costs are $9,700.00 per week.
You pulled this number out of your ass for what reason?
Wrong.
How much does Uber cost?
Your Uber fare is calculated on 4 criteria:
Base fare â" A flat fee charged at the beginning of the ride
Cost per minute â" How much youâ(TM)re charged for each minute youâ(TM)re inside the ride
Cost per mile â" How much youâ(TM)re charged for each mile of the ride
Booking Fee (Formerly known as the âSafe Rides Feeâ(TM)) â" A flat fee to cover âoperational costsâ(TM) (Not included for UberBlack and UberSUV)
http://www.ridesharingdriver.c...
However from another point of view, Obi Wan manipulated a son into trying to kill his father and blow up infrastructure to push his own political/religious agenda, so from a certain point of view, Obi Wan is a terrorist, ISIS like figure.
Heh. Reminded me of this... :D
Ezekiel 23:20
Correct ONLY if the above "earnings" account for depreciation (which I don't think they do). If they are then then effectively uber IS paying for a new car for the drivers. If not then the wearing out of the car is an unrealised loss the drivers are incurring which will come back to haunt them once their car is toast.
Uber driver's use their mom's car.... Profit!!
I believe it's a 4.0 but don't quote me as I'm not really a car guy.
Linux, you magnificent bastard, I read the fucking manual!
In any country where Uber drivers are making $13 an hour they already have a very decent standard of living. Compare an Uber driver in the USA or Europe to anyone from Africa, the Middle East, India, or most of China.
No wonder the rest of the world considers first-worlders such pricks. We complain about living in the lap of luxury. We have air conditioning, big screen TVs, internet, no warlords raping and killing us by the thousands, and so much food that over half of us are obese and dying from it! Yet folks like you complain about earning more than minimum wage?!
Even the poorest in the first world is like a king. But most importantly of all: even if you're poor now nothing prevents you from rising above it thanks to the relative freedom and opportunity we enjoy in the first world. Yes, it absolutely isn't a cake walk to raise oneself out of poverty, but then again all it takes is hard work and not making stupid decisions in the first world. No wonder the third world is stampeding our borders.
Reading posts like this makes me glad I'm not married any more. Such a money drain.
According to TFA, they accounted for a $16,000 car lasting 250,000 miles, plus $3,000 / year in maintenance, and getting 25 mpg on gas that costs only $1.75/gal.
Regulations are useless if they make the whole industry useless to customers. Waiting an hour for a cab to arrive (if it comes at all) makes the service completely unusable.
The numbers provided where estimates that purported to include vehicle costs. They may be a bit low or a bit high, but they're not too far off. Even in busy markets, you can earn money doing this. Driving a cab is never going to be a shortcut to wealth and an excellent lifestyle. Uber isn't going to change that.
The problem with quotes on the internet, is that nobody bothers to check their veracity. -- Abraham Lincoln
I don't see the problem. $13/hour is much better than what many, many other people earn at other jobs. The minimum wage is only $7.50, and there's plenty of people who earn somewhere between $7.50 and $10/hour in this country.
Maybe you should complain first about the plight of all those people who really are below the poverty line, before worrying about Uber drivers who are above it.
What's more, countless Uber drivers claim that they make more money with Uber than they ever did driving for taxi companies. So what's the problem? You want them to go back to being even poorer than they are now?
The concentration camps were legal (and thus brought on by the consent of the people in theory).
If you feel you live in such a country, I suggest you immigrate somewhere else immediately. Why would you live there?
Laws are rules for the court, but merely a bottom bar to hit for life. Think beyond laws in your actions always.
According to TFA, they accounted for a $16,000 car lasting 250,000 miles, plus $3,000 / year in maintenance, and getting 25 mpg on gas that costs only $1.75/gal.
I'm pretty sure we haven't seen gas at $1.75/gallon since the early 90s. It almost got there briefly several months ago.
In any case, that figure is ludicrous.
I don't see the problem. $13/hour is much better than what many, many other people earn at other jobs.
The problem isn't that $13/hr is inhumanely low. The problem is that Uber's recruiting material says its drivers make $20-30/hour, net, after expenses and taxes, but their drivers actually make $9-13.
In any case, that figure is ludicrous.
So is 25 mpg, isn't it? Here in Europe, that would be 9.5 liters/100 km. Here, you'd throw that car away and buy a new one to save almost $20k over the life time of that vehicle.
Ezekiel 23:20
Detroit is actually a nice place, in the suburbs. It's the city itself that's a disaster.
I'm not going to argue that $13/hr is in any way good money objectively, for all the reasons you've already laid out, but the median personal income for the US is in fact just about $26k/year.
Which just means that almost everybody is pretty squarely fucked, but literally half of Americans are even more fucked than someone making $13/hr full time.
-Forrest Cameranesi, Geek of all Trades
"I am Sam. Sam I am. I do not like trolls, flames, or spam."
Granted, window motors have died repeatedly
I've replaced three of them on my '02 GMC Sierra with 130K miles. The stupid Bowden cable assemblies that everyone uses now run a stainless steel cable over nylon pulleys and are pretty much guaranteed to die at some point. The older scissor-lift mechanisms were heavier, but much sturdier, and you could replace just the motor instead of the whole damned assembly. Otherwise my Sierra has been a tank.
Please stand clear of the doors, por favor mantenganse alejado de las puertas
Lets go back to the no regulation time where the following occurred;
1. No inspections to ensure safe vehicles.
2. No licenses to pull in case of violations.
3. No accessible vehicles for the disabled.
4. No employment standards so exhausted drivers are on the road.
5. Rampant discrimination so certain groups can not get a cab.
6. Low insurance so accident victims are not compensated fully.
etc.
Do you have to wait an hour every time you call a cab? Doubt it. Do you have to wait an hour on the few high usage nights like Halloween and New Years? Probably. No business can carry the number of cabs all year to deal with those two nights and that is not an excuse for killing the business the rest of the year.
Regulations built up through the years to deal with bad actors. They exist for a reason.
Because the legality of taxis and the corruption in that industry really doesn't affect my daily life much?? WTF?
You're full of shit.
Yes, I really do have to wait an hour every time I called a cab. I lived that before in one place, when I was temporarily without a car and before I started using Uber. No, it wasn't on high-usage nights, that's just the way it was.
And your stupid regulations don't work for the other things either. The cabs I've been in were just shitty old Crown Vics; they were not "accessible for the disabled". And they were falling apart, so I call bullshit on your "inspections". There's countless stories about exhausted cab drivers, so #4 is bullshit too. And there's countless stories about black people in NYC being unable to hail a cab, so #5 is total bullshit too.
Because they're making money devaluing yours. It should be plainly obvious that any business model that relies on having desperate people "trade" the equity in their vehicles for less cash than the equity is not much different than loan sharking.
But the figures cited take into account expenses, including depreciation of the vehicle. So it sounds like Uber still pays significantly more than the value of the equity in the vehicle.
Breakfast served all day!
You were talking about concentration camps, presumably referring to nazi concentration camps. If you feel your government is capable of such a thing then you should move. Having a controlled market with certain positives and negatives is way different then having concentration camps. The taxi regulations prevent too many cars from being on the road and help to contribute to overall safety for drivers and passengers.
Laws are rules for the court, but merely a bottom bar to hit for life. Think beyond laws in your actions always.
If the cost of using the car is higher than income generated by the car, then you really should not be in business driving.
W..w..W - Willy Waterloo washes Warren Wiggins who is washing Waldo Woo.
No, here 25mpg is not ludicrous. It's low, but not that low.
You're an idiot. I was making a comparison that legality and regulation aren't necessarily correct, and it's true for taxis too. The taxi regulations do nothing but artificially reduce competition, and I can't imagine how anyone could argue that's a good thing, and it's proven by how poor taxi service is in so many markets.
That's their own fault. I wouldn't sympathise with people bitching that they don't make a living wage from their paper route, either.
I wonder how many of you remember paper routes. Bought my 5 1/4" floppy drive with paper route money. No more saving my programs on cassette tapes... good times.
-1 Uncomfortable Truth
or you share the car with another uber driver. i know a few and they make decent money.
Nice. So who's the named insured in these situations? What happens when one of the other people is driving and gets into an accident?
"If there was a gay Afro-Puertorican Linux distribution, I'd give it a try" ~lucm
"Turns out, the it has been exaggerating. According to BuzzFeed News, which obtained leaked documents, drivers in some markets don't take home much more than service workers at major chains like Walmart when it comes to net pay."
Cue the "I'm shocked" posts.
Wow, could believe that a fine upstanding company like Uber would fib about something like the pay rate of their slaves, err, I mean their "independently-contracted-not-an-employee-drivers"
Just cruising through this digital world at 33 1/3 rpm...
Except that the newspaper didn't run adds like this. Making $24.41 an hour sounds pretty good.
I guess where you live cabs are pritty bad. Where I live it is very different.
I used to drive cabs so I know a few things you don't. I had to take the cab in every 6 months for inspection at an approved shop. Our company had to have a designated number of accessible cabs on the road at all times or we were fined. You didn't see an accessible taxi because you didn't ask for one. Yeah we were tired at times but were not allowed to work 16 hour shifts. I also notice you didn't mention the license that could be pulled for violations.
This was in northern NJ. The cabs there are atrocious. SanFran cabs are also infamous for being horrible, which is the whole reason Uber did so well there and took off. The ones I used in Phoenix sucked too.
The only place I've seen that had pretty decent cabs (if you're white) is Manhattan, NYC, but that's mainly because there's so many of them, and they're used by so many people, that it's usually pretty easy to get one by standing on the corner. However, black people in Manhattan have to use Uber because the cabbies won't pick them up.
As for license pulling for violations, what happens when the cab is being driven by one of the cabbie's unlicensed relatives? That's pretty common too. (I think one of the other comments here mentioned that one.)
As for accessible taxis, there were none of those in NJ. You must be from NYC or something, where they really do have that stuff. You'll never find an accessible cab in a city like Phoenix either.
Mmm yeah, I don't use the service for the same reason I didn't shop at Walmart when I lived in the US...
Tipping the driver isn't a solution for the problem of Uber running at a loss to deflate the market either.
Looks like that was created by an enterprising individual who gets a commission when he signs people up, and not Uber themselves. I doubt Uber would put a link allowing people to sign up with Lyft if it were their site...
-1 Uncomfortable Truth
it's one of the dirty little secrets of these outfits. I know a couple guys that do this sorta work as part runners. By the time they're done writing off their mileage they effectively have $0 income. This doesn't get them food stamps or welfare (God only knows how destitute you have to be to get those, everybody I know who hit a rough patch got turned down) but it gets them healthcare.
On the one hand it's incredibly fucked up because it's a multi-billion dollar subsidy for Uber. On the other hand I think the local gov'ts have got wise to this and started demanding more proof of income documents though so they can kick 'em off the programs. Most of these pseudo employers won't give you that because what they're doing isn't legal.
I can't decide which is more fucked up, giving those bastards a subsidy or the nasty way we're trying to deprive these folks of health care. At any rate it wasn't an issue when it was a few hundred thousand part runners. But Uber & Lyft have millions. Gonna be interesting to see how it plays out.
Hi! I make Firefox Plug-ins. Check 'em out @ https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/youtube-mp3-podcaster/
Hah. City driving. Well, that could explain things. But a PHEV could probably fare better.
Ezekiel 23:20
When the cab's tag gets pulled it is a big deal. The driver license is a minor inconvenience.
Here is a list of accessible taxis in Phoenix.
How about this one from Uber's site? $1029.79 is a good haul for a week.That is over $52K/year.
Ignorant fuckstains like you, who have zero financial sense, are a blight on the world.
I make $50K per year at government IT job, save 20% of my income and live in Silicon Valley. If you live a modest lifestyle, this is entirely possible. Unfortunately, most people who live in Silicon Valley want big cars, big houses, big wife and big kids. That gets expensive in a hurry.
Because your post reminded me of all the "Make $5k/week" ads I see.
There are jobs where you can make obscene amounts of money IF YOU ARE WILLING to work 80 hours. My former coworker currently makes $10K per week for 80 hours per week. Prior to going full time as a roofer, he did roofing as a 40-hour job while working 40 hours remotely in government IT at night for six months after getting his contractor license. Construction is red hot now because there is an acute shortage of skilled workers.
If you don't like the job, get a different one.
Taxi regulations give enough of the pie to everyone involved in the industry to make a living, while maintaining control over the number of cars on the road and the quality and safety of those cars. They ensure that there is service for everyone, not just the most profitable people so that they can be part of overall municipal transportation solution. It's good for drivers and the general public. Again, you shouldn't live in a country where you are so paranoid of government corruption.
Laws are rules for the court, but merely a bottom bar to hit for life. Think beyond laws in your actions always.
I live in the US. If this is the poster child for corruption, then the whole world is fucked.
The taxi regulations don't work. They give us shitty cabs driven by people who don't speak English, drive around in circles, and take an hour to show up when hailed. This is contrary to the whole idea that we should have fewer cars on the road, and be sharing more (i.e. instead of owning your own car, you should use services for transport when possible): because public transit and cabs don't actually work for people, they're forced to buy and maintain their own cars, so we end up with exactly what we were trying to avoid: too many cars, too much pollution, too much of a cost to society.
By contrast, Uber has actually made it so that some people have decided to give up their cars and use Uber exclusively. This is what regulations should have done in the first place, but utterly failed to do. Don't blame the consumers for the failure of the bureaucrats to craft good regulation.
Is there a $16,000 car on the face of this earth that will last 250,000 miles?
Laws are rules for the court, but merely a bottom bar to hit for life. Think beyond laws in your actions always.
Then why not buy the cheapest car you can and have it break in a year and replace it?
Laws are rules for the court, but merely a bottom bar to hit for life. Think beyond laws in your actions always.
"You don't want to let them fuck you over? Then don't" is no moral defense against the way they exploit their drivers, and is no defense at all against those who are poor and have no choice but to allow themselves to be fucked over from time to time. Just because a sucker is born every minute does not make it right to take a sucker's money unethically.
At some point "free markets" give way to "morality" -- otherwise we'd still have child labor.
This comment is my opinion and does not represent an official position of Donald Trump or others I do not work for
No you make minimum wage at your McJob.
$50,000+ per year IS minimum wage for technical jobs in Silicon Valley. It could be worse. A Dell technician only makes $17 per hour plus mileage in Silicon Valley. Some tech sweat shops only pay $10 per hour.
You retardation is proof of that.
Funny you should mentioned that. I spent the first eight years in Special Ed because of an undiagnosed hearing lost. Skipped high school, spent four years at community college, and got an associate degree in General Education. A decade later I went back to school, got a associate degree in Computer Programming, and made the president's list for maintaining a 4.0GPA in my major.
You claim that you live in SV and only make $50k in a government IT job? That is what GS-5?
Beats me. I'm a contractor and $50K is the national average for a senior system administrator position. I've been trying to get my contracting agency to pay me a Silicon Valley cost-of-living adjustment to bring my pay rate up to $100K+ per year.
That is a job that requires zero education as educated people can start with the feds at GS-7 or even 9.
All the people hired for the project that I'm working on has 20+ years of IT experience. All accepted $50K per year. That pay rate goes far in the Pacific Northwest and Southwest, but not in Silicon Valley.
Of course you can save money, you are sharing your 1 room apartment with 5 people.
I live by myself in a studio apartment for the last 11 years. In Silicon Valley. I'm three years from being priced out of the market. A few more certifications underneath my belt, my next job will pay $120K+ per year.
Exactly! Nobody said you'd get rich driving for Uber.
There are taxi services like that, you just have to pay for them. I guarantee you, a society without regulations is damn sure to not work. All they need is for someone to fight to improve them. Granted, government is out of touch but don't take it out on the taxi industry. Those are the hard working people who are supposed to be rewarded in this country. Uber will never be anywhere as good for the people in terms of quality of life. They'll have automated cars as soon as they are available. I'm not saying we can hold back the tide of AI, but let's look at who the little guy really is here.
Laws are rules for the court, but merely a bottom bar to hit for life. Think beyond laws in your actions always.
Oh please, Uber drivers aren't all "hard working"? Taxi drivers are just corrupt players in a pay-to-play system. Fuck 'em.
And I'm sorry, I am NOT going to sit around for 1 hour waiting for some guy with a stinky cab who can't speak English and insist his card reader is "broken" just to support "the little guy". Not when there's a far superior service available, or I have any alternative at all.
And finally, if the taxi drivers don't like the regulation, then THEY can lobby to fix it. They're the ones paying off the politicians anyway.
Yeah well you take the 'screw everyone as long as I get what I want' approach that is becoming so prevalent around here.
Laws are rules for the court, but merely a bottom bar to hit for life. Think beyond laws in your actions always.
Yeah well you take the "if I keep trying the same thing over and over, maybe it'll come out differently" approach that insane people take. Taxis have proven themselves to be miserable choices, that's why Uber and Lyft have become so popular. If you can't get your head out of your ass and figure that out, then you're beyond hope. You're just like the dinosaurs in the media industry who just can't figure out why people don't want to watch TV with commercials any more.
Good senior sys admins can make $100k a year in both the public and private sector.
This is the first job that ever gave me the title of senior system admin. Which is why I'm learning everything I can for my next position in three years that will pay $100K+ per year.
You guys are just the dregs left over that will work for peanuts because it is the best you can do.
That's funny. We were hired as desktop techs. When the contract started, we found out we were all senior system admins responsible for 80,000+ systems. Obviously, the prime contractor low-balled us. After two years of job security, I don't mind using this position as a stepping step to my next job.
Certifications are meaningless and don't cover your lack of formal education.
Certifications are worthless without the experience to back it up. Everyone I worked with has higher-level certifications than I do.
At least you are proud of your retardation.
I don't let negative people put me down. I know where I came from, I know where I'm going. Most people don't know either.
Yes... first world problems indeed.
Laws are rules for the court, but merely a bottom bar to hit for life. Think beyond laws in your actions always.
It most likely is the 4.0 which is a really good engine as far as reliability goes so long as the main seals are good on them the rest of the vehicle will turn to dust around them. This isn't all that different from those old Volvo diesels that that just keep going just fine while the rest of the car rusts away to nothing. The 4.0 liter engine wasn't designed by Chrysler and they don't appear to have mucked with it much which is probably it is a really good engine. If you want to find out just open the hood and if there is a really long engine (that inline 6 is substantially longer than it is wide) then you have the 4.0. I gave up on my jeep when the fuel pump went out even though the engine ran great as it was so rusty I would have likely had to replace all the fuel lines, fittings, tank, and tank support when changing out the pump that it just wasn't worth my money and time with that many miles. I do miss having a vehicle with real 4WD, limited slip differentials on both axles, and high clearance though.
Time to offend someone
You dramatically missed the point. They're saying that, distance otherwise being equal (which is reasonable for estimating car maintenance), you want to go that distance in as short a time as possible, as long as it's being used to make money.
Examine even your most deeply held beliefs. Nobody is always right.