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Lenovo Denies Claims It Plotted With Microsoft To Block Linux Installs (theregister.co.uk)
Reader kruug writes: Several users noted certain new Lenovo machines' SSDs are locked in a RAID mode, with AHCI removed from the BIOS. Windows is able to see the SSD while in RAID mode due to a proprietary driver, but the SSD is hidden from Linux installations -- for which such a driver is unavailable. Speaking to The Register today, a Lenovo spokesperson claimed the Chinese giant "does not intentionally block customers using other operating systems on its devices and is fully committed to providing Linux certifications and installation guidance on a wide range of products."
Complaints on Lenovo's forums suggest that users have been unable to install GNU/Linux operating systems on models from the Yoga 900S to the Ideapad 710S, with one 19-page thread going into detail about the BIOS issue and users' attempts to work around it.
Complaints on Lenovo's forums suggest that users have been unable to install GNU/Linux operating systems on models from the Yoga 900S to the Ideapad 710S, with one 19-page thread going into detail about the BIOS issue and users' attempts to work around it.
Here's the link to the actual story in case anyone was interested in reading it: http://www.theregister.co.uk/2...
This is the second story posted twice today - the first being the Google Allo story. News day twice as slow
Can we have Bennett Haselton back?
I'm in the market for a new laptop, so I'll skip all of the Lenovos, and will pass that along to all of my clients. Thanks!
Politics; n. : A religion whereby man is god.
Often a minority group thinks it is being persecuted against because the majority doesn't go out of its way to make the minority welcomed.
I expect Lenovo wasn't really actively stopping Linux however they weren't actively trying to make something that Linux will work on either. They were making sure it would work for Windows though.
If something is so important that you feel the need to post it on the internet... It probably isn't that important.
Is this the second posting? I didn't read the first but it seemed to be accusing Lenovo and Microsoft, this one appears to be Lenovo denying the previous claims. That would seem to make them separate stories.
Comment removed based on user account deletion
Don't worry, the driver will be released along with GNU Hurd.
Yeah, but 2 stories about the same topic - Lenovo's sabotage of Linux on the Yoga. Another one was about Google Allo - first being its availability, and second being about its pulling back on its privacy options, or whatever
Precisely! There is System 76, that now offers a wide variety of choices. Go for those.
Define Linux? Seriously? Its the fucking kernel, that is Linux, the rest of the OS is GNU utilites.
Of course they didn't conspire to block Linux installs - it was all about providing security to the user, by preventing anyone from attacking the BIOS and the operating system. The fact that this includes the user, and prevents them from "attacking" the operating system by replacing it, is entirely unintentional - or so they'd have you believe.
Sarcasm aside, there is a lot of security-related motivation in attempts to lock down the BIOS, UEFI, etc. The problem is that much of this also has consequences, and we clearly can't rely on companies to simply keep our best interests at heart on their own - but that should come as a surprise to no one here.
Dear god, no. Can you imagine the horror of listening to Haselton explain the flaws in manishs decision process for determining which stories to dupe and how his weighted reader apathy algorithm is better at finding the articles people want to see duped? For fucks sake man, think of the children.
As explained in the slashdot story from 3.5 hours ago ...
A reddit poster offered this, in his link Lenovo says the dev team is working on it:
""[–]0xFFFFFF 89 points 7 hours ago*
Levono is aware of the issue and fixing it: https://forums.lenovo.com/t5/L...
It is on hackernews, where people are being rational and theorizing that this is not microsofts fault. More like best-buy rep doesn't know what he talks about and the SSD doesn't have support drivers in linux kernal.. Or lenova messed up their bios implementation.
Luckily we have the reddit witchhunt in full force, so we can make uninformed rants!
Note: Every single previous similar scenario about linux being locked out has not been microsofts fault, which is why people are sceptical that this is the case this time..
I also have a Signature Edition laptop, it runs linux fine..""
https://www.reddit.com/r/linux...
The Lenovo link has an official post saying:
"Re: Yoga 900-13ISK2 - BIOS update for setting RAID mode for missing hard drive on linux install Options
07-27-2016 10:04 AM
Thank you for confirming it is still not possible to install Linux on Yoga 900-13ISK2 systems.
This issue has been escalated to the Development team. I am unable to offer a timeframe for fix at this stage in the investigation. With previous cases, BIOS fixes have been delivered anywhere from several weeks to several months.
I will post again when I have more information on the investigation."
https://forums.lenovo.com/t5/L...
This story is a couple of hours after the allegation story, if that story was updated with the denial and explanation now, there would be near zero discussion on the denial and explanation while the outrage about the allegation would stand in full.
That is why something as big as this is due two separate stories when the allegation and denial are that far apart - now go discuss the new "information" on the topic, does it change any viewpoints from the last story? Lets watch and find out.
This doesn't fit with the reply (from levono i assume) that the guy in the first story on /. said he got:
When he complained that he was unable to install Linux, the answer he got was: "This system has a Signature Edition of Windows 10 Home installed. It is locked per our agreement with Microsoft."
When he complained that he was unable to install Linux, the answer he got was: "This system has a Signature Edition of Windows 10 Home installed. It is locked per our agreement with Microsoft."
Now, please let me load Linux onto any Chromebook. That's what I really want.
That is what I did when I wanted a Linux laptop, repurposed a Chromebook.
Why? Because Windows laptops are well know to have Linux compatibility problems. There is no existing reasonable expectation of Linux compatibility for laptops as there is for desktops. Laptop compatibility is still a Linux wish list item. Buyers still have to do their homework.
Be sure to tell Stallman and his devotees
The world's burning. Moped Jesus spotted on I50. Details at 11.
I'll agree with you on proprietary RAID, but not on PCIE SSD. That's one of a few fairly standard choices to either move beyond the speed of SATA or just shrink the interface and hardware.
Your assuming a 2.5 drive thats are getting to be a big space eater in notebooks and they are moving to pcie for speed in the m2 format. It's a bit harder when it's a pcie drive.
No sir I dont like it.
Personally, I've had pretty good experiences with ZAReason, vendor of Linux laptops, desktops, and servers.
I think we've pushed this "anyone can grow up to be president" thing too far.
I agree, but it spares one the pain of finding out - while or after installation - that WiFi does not work, or sound does not work, or whatever. With 76, since the business is selling Ubuntu, that's already taken care of. Plus, while talking to them, one can ask whether they can preload steam or whatever. Also, a System 76 would start at $700. Not the $250 that many would like to pay, but you know that what you are getting works w/ Linux OOTB
Precisely - is its interface worse than KDE or Gnome or LXDE or XFCE or LXQT or Razor-qt or any of the myriad DEs out there?
Wow. We're going to start to use that weird mental gyration again? When will you learn that Android is not Linux. They use the same kernel, yes but they don't offer the same functionality. When are you people going to get with the program and not sound like some Fandroids or It n00bs?
There's a world of difference and if you can't see that then I guess you probably don't know much about Linux and all it entails.
Lenovo is total crap
aaaaaaa
If they haven't fixed this within the week, I'm going to consider this malicious intent. If they do, I'll consider it sloppy QA.
In either case Lenovo have lost considerable reputation in my eyes...and this isn't the first time they've walked the edge between malice and incompetence, so they were already sliding down. I doubt that I'll recommend them to anyone for any purpose after this, but new stories are always popping up, and this isn't yet egregious enough that I'm sure I'll remember them as "always avoid".
The reason for "within the week", is that by then my opinions will have set, and I'll have my attention off this story. It gets pretty hard to change my mind after that, and currently I'm leaning towards malicious.
P.S.: While I'm only talking for myself, I don't delude myself that my thoughts and opinions are unique. So for Lenovo time *is* of the essence. If I don't become convinced that they weren't malicious this story will tack on the addendum "and then they lie about it".
I think we've pushed this "anyone can grow up to be president" thing too far.
What's stopping you?
Many chromebooks can have a seasbios legacy boot mode installed without risk at all.
Check this out, for instance.
https://johnlewis.ie/custom-ch...
I am posting this from a Celes right now.
Failing that, you could try Crouton:
https://www.linux.com/learn/ho...
The main issue with booting real linux on a chromebook is the use of the SPI bus instead of a legacy PCI bus. This makes for serious issues with getting SDCard slots, keyboards, and mice running.
Linux can fix that by adding better support for SPI based devices in mainline, but clearly it is google's fault. (rolls eyes)
Former flash memory industry worker here. Flash does not work that way. Write Enable is attached to whatever logic circuitry is there - to be asserted following the sequence of address/data write cycles from the CPU or controller to the flash. Write Enable is a dynamic signal tied to the controlling circuitry and logic - it's not something connected to a switch that can be turned on or off by the system's owner.
What you are thinking about is something called Write Protect - which locks a flash, but this can't be a standard solution, b'cos no 2 vendors implement it the same way. Some lock the entire flash i.e. the entire BIOS. Some lock the entire top few sectors and/or bottom few sectors. Some allow the user to select which sectors are to be locked when Write Protect is asserted. Yet, some flash have no Write Protect pins at all. Motherboard vendors - meaning the Asusteks, Gigabytes, Quantas, Compals, Arimas, et al are always cutting deals w/ the likes of flash vendors for the cheapest flash out there, and their designers are required to have interchangeable parts so that they can pit their suppliers in a price pissing contest w/ each other. Since WP# varies, result is the designers would deliberately either make WP# a no-connect, or tie it high to make sure it's permanently disabled. Thereby defeating your solution.
The whole history of BIOS started w/ it first being on PROM/EPROMs. But then, as motherboards became more advanced and in-system re-programmability became necessary, flash memory started replacing them. Usually, it would lock the 'boot blocks' of the flash - meaning either the top few or bottom few sectors, depending on where the boot code of the OS was supposed to reside. However, the rest of the flash was still exposed and vulnerable to being corrupted, which is why the UEFI and the Core Boot conventions were developed.
The real solution to this whole boot thing is the respective projects - be it GRUB or Linux or BSD - coming out w/ a comprehensive solution to UEFI. I know that FreeBSD has come some way in that, but still doesn't allow it such that I can set UEFI protection while still booting from an USB drive (which is how TrueOS wants to distribute the OS). That would help a lot more than playing footsie w/ the default settings of the PC.
It's not the disk itself, it's the controller between the disk and the rest of the system.
Lenovo: We 100% support linux on this laptop! You can install Bash and Ubuntu libs on Windows 10 just fine!!!!!!!!!!!!1
Android is not Linux, but what about ChromeOS?
Most motherboards (both desktop and laptop) have multiple modes for the disk controller.
"Legacy" mode emulates something similar enough to IDE for old operating systems (think winxp) to boot without additional drivers.
"AHCI" mode uses the AHCI standard to communicate with the OS. Older operating systems had trouble with this but all recent ones support it out ot the box.
"RAID" mode enables the use of the fakeraid support in the bios and requires a specific driver.
Note that being in "RAID" mode doesn't nessacerally mean you actually have a raid array.
My understanding of the issue here is that the controller is stuck in "RAID" mode and linux doesn't have a driver for that particular controller in "RAID" mode.
note: i'm known as plugwash most places but i screwd up registering that here somehow in the past and now can't register
If the issue was only that Linux lacked drivers for their SSD configuration that wouldn't be a problem (even though a bit of a dick move from their side). The problem is that there was BIOS setting to change the configuration from RAID to AHCI, but this setting was locked down. The person had to go through some pretty heroic lengths to unlock it.
Not having a Linux driver? That's explainable by stupidity.
Not having a legacy compatibility mode? Could have been explained by stupidity if it were the case.
Having a legacy compatibility mode, but making it inaccessible without a soldering iron? That's just malice.
And frankly, if the company is even considering locking down the BIOS like this, it shows that they have a very weird idea about who owns the damn laptop, and they're never getting my money.
entropy happens
I don't think the $300-$500 penalty is from lack of crapware. I think it is from the lack of economies of scale that other vendors have.
I like the idea of buying a laptop that has hardware chosen based on it's ability to run linux well, rather than simply hoping that linux works well on it after reading a bunch of forums, and I don't mind paying a premium for that.
I was actually about to buy a lemur, but recently determined I need to be able to run Autodesk Fusion 360, which only runs in windows, plus the lemur doesn't have a 4k screen, which is something I'd like to have.
you don't know the whole story.
lenovo is many companies. their business laptop division is nothing like the 'yoga crap' that they sell consumers with crapware.
You mean the Thinkpad line that they acquired from IBM ? Yes, that one is an entirely different kind of beast.
- The good thing is that they are very easy to repair. (In addition to being very sturdy)
Whereas with some other constructors you can find two laptops that have the same official name, but different internals, to the point that their customer service actually asks you to give part of the serial number instead (HP, I'm looking at you...)
With Thinkpads, it's actually the opposite: plenty of different models share common parts (e.g.: the keyboard is usually the same across lots of models).
- The bad thing is all the BIOS / Firmware weirdness. Older laptops I've seen didn't have a full BIOS Setup. Only a couple of basic stuff could be change from the setup. Most of the settings where handled by DOS tools (like settings IO Ports and IRQs).
And the whole black/white list fiascos date back from IBM time - they "had to protect their business", i.e.: make sure you could only buy mini-PCI cards from their (expensive) shop, instead of any compatible after-market 3rd party part.
the spyware and phone home stuff does not tend to exist on the business level lappies. business guys would not put up with that
One of the main reason is that upon buying new equipment, the IT department of most business tends to reinstall a whole new OS from scratch (usually combined with all the necessary crypto-layers, remote-access tools, etc.) ..unless you manage to get it running on the "Intel ME" (The "lights-out" management engine from Intel : a separate low-power core that runs a small webserver that enables the IT department to do remote management on any corporate workstation or laptop, even when the main CPU is shut down, as long as the device is connected some how to the corporate network) or "IPMI" (the industry standard for the same functionnality used by anyone else beside Intel).
So trying to pre-install any crap on a business laptop is futile...
This firmware is currently NOT open, and can't be installed by anyone. It only comes together with the BIOS/EFI upgrades.
And researchers has already found tons of vulnerabilities in these firmwares. To the point that you don't actually need a real backdoor/spyware to spy on users, you just need to abuse one of the multiple exploit in the wild.
Current best practice :
- for servers : keep the management on a separate private network.
- for laptops : just kill the function, and ask the user to physically bring the laptop whenever you have maintenance to do. The remote access isn't worth the security risk.
"Sufficiently advanced satire is indistinguishable from reality." - [Tips: 1DrYakQDKCQ6y52z6QbnkxHXAocMZJE61o ]
Neither Android nor ChromOS are Linux, they are their own operating systems hosted by the Linux kernel. The Linux kernel hosts many things, embedded applications in devices and appliances all the way up to operating systems like the preceding.
In order to run the Linux operating system on a ChromeBook you have to disable firmware/boot security and "replace" the ChromOS with the Linux OS.
For example, Kaspersky make a handy rescue disk that you can burn to CD or install on a USB drive for performing offline scans of computers. If these Lenovo computers have crippled access to their SSD drives (intentionally or otherwise) then these tools won't be able to see the SSD and disinfect the computer.
You also have tools like GPARTED for repartitioning disks, DBAN for erasing disks prior to disposal, and I suspect there are a range of other useful rescue and recovery tools that rely on Linux as well.
By not allowing people to use these tools, it's likely that problems that could otherwise be fixed will only be repairable by doing full system erases and rebuilds, or returning the laptop to Lenovo for repair.
The fact that these computers don't run Linux on a 24x7 basis isn't the issue - its that when you need to boot them of Linux (installer, libe install, or revovery tools) the ability is not there.
I doubt it's a deliberate decision by Lenovo - however it does indicate that whatever design and manufacturing criteria they have for their products is not particularly well thought out, and doesn't speak well for the quality and utility of their other products.
"Android is not Linux"
AINL
I can only pronounce this as "ANAL".
Love it.
They aren't selling to Linux users, if you don't like it, take your business elsewhere.
System76 sells Linux laptops
And so does Dell
Just sayin'
Hahaha, you can't count!
>> today, a Lenovo spokesperson claimed the Chinese giant "does not intentionally block customers using other operating systems on its devices and is fully committed to providing Linux certifications and installation guidance on a wide range of products."
Thats great. I'm sure that Lenovo are right now working hard to rush a new unlocked version of the BIOS out that fixes all the issues.
Precisely! There is System 76, that now offers a wide variety of choices. Go for those.
You can even get Dell Inspiron, Latitude and Precision laptops with Ubuntu pre-installed.
I see you've never talked to a customer service person before so let me give you a quick primer:
a) they don't know what they are talking about.
b) they don't know what you're talking about.
c) they will say anything that sounds fancy to say that their product should work an you're using it wrong.
Now the other answer we got from higher up is that Lenovo is working on a BIOS update have given a time frame from a couple of weeks to a few months. But really all of this is beside the point since the reason the laptop can't run Linux has nothing to do with Lenovo, a BIOS setting, or anything, but rather that Intel haven't provided an easy working driver for their chipset to work in FakeRAID under Linux. This goes years back. Just look at the multi-page how-tos and screw arounds that people have used to get it working.
If Intel provided proper drivers then Linux would run regardless of the BIOS setting.
Having a legacy compatibility mode, but making it inaccessible without a soldering iron? That's just malice.
The other story had a link explaining the most likely cause of this was to force Windows to only use an Intel driver rather than allowing it to use AHCI, something which apparently has caused battery life issues on this chipset.
I'm inclined to believe this was done with good intentions but someone stupid enough to consider that the legacy option exists for a reason.
That's the answer, doesn't make it true. I've had many instances of being told many conflicting things, enough that I can't quote one response and consider it final.
What happened to critical thinking, or at least considering alternatives?
Taking a fact that matches your beliefs, yet is not actually true, is literally the whole problem of the current USA election cycle. And you are part of the problem, regardless of your country of citizenship.
In addition, sibling post is correct about customer service repeating talking points, frequently without understanding. Same problem.
Stop being the problem.
But if you read some of the AC's in this thread, being "Anti-Microsoft" clouds our ability to discern fact from fiction. :) Gotta love the Microsoft Astroturfing...
It's the Stay-Puft Marshmallow Man.
This doesn't make any sense. This was a BIOS setting, Windows wouldn't be able to change it even it if wanted to.
And AHCI causing battery life issues, really? This standard is old, and widely used. It is extremely unlikely that the chipset would be made just to work with RAID and AHCI remain untested. Most likely they just took some chipset that had been working with AHCI for years and added RAID support. I'll believe your claims about battery life if I see a benchmark.
entropy happens
Seems correct for me? 1, 1, 2, 3, 5, ...
You have never done support I see. Hint: you are so fucking wrong - people do things they have no fucking idea what it'll do with their system just because they are "so good" with computers. Low level formatting because (insert reason) and then complain their system doesn't load? Forcing an expansion card or memory stick into some place it shouldn't go? Flashing a new BIOS that is intended for another motherboard (requires forcing the process as checksums etc. doesn't match)?
Users do stupid things all the time, locking down options are a good way to reduce support costs.
See, if you had read the article then you wouldn't be looking like such a complete idiot right now.
The person had to go through some pretty heroic lengths http://imgur.com/a/ox4Ey to unlock it.
Now THAT was hacking. This is the EXACT definition of hacking. Thank you for linking that.
"Someone needs to talk to the tree of liberty about its ghoulish drinking problem." by ohnocitizen
This doesn't make any sense. This was a BIOS setting, Windows wouldn't be able to change it even it if wanted to.
My point exactly. The BIOS setting forces Windows to not load it's AHCI driver. In other news if you tried to do a vanilla install of Windows 10 on this laptop it will also fail to detect the SSD. This all comes down to attempting to force a host to use Intel's RAID driver which happens to not exist for Linux.
And AHCI causing battery life issues, really? This standard is old, and widely used.
Since when has the age of a standard had anything to do with the out-of-the-box driver working for it flawlessly with full functionality, and likewise the ability for a vendor to produce a 100% bug free chipset, especially considering that many of these options are likely "value added".
Most likely they just took some chipset that had been working with AHCI for years and added RAID support
Again, an Intel problem. This is their integrated chipset we're talking about.
And HP. Why not vote with your wallet and support those that support you rather than giving money to both Lenovo and Microsoft.
No, this is not your point exactly, it is exactly the opposite. If the BIOS was set to RAID Windows would simply fail to load. It wouldn't search through the BIOS to see whether there existed a AHCI setting and then flip it. Making the setting inaccessible only fucks the user, it doesn't change anything else.
entropy happens
To me, the fact that they have not publicly refuted the statement from service agent means that it is probably correct and they are just trying to sweep it under the carpet...
http://imgur.com/a/ox4Ey
Clearly, it is not a driver issue, it's a locked bios issue. The original customer support was correct and higher up levono exes are now lying to the press.
Except that being a signature series laptop has zero to do with linux and there's plenty out there that run it just fine.
Err it IS a driver issue. The RAID driver isn't present in Linux. No more no less. The fact that Lenovo's BIOS doesn't expose AHCI has nothing to do with Linux not running on hardware that doesn't have a driver for it. Reports are there were reasons to disable it as well due to buggy AHCI support in Windows.