EFF Calls On HP To Disable Printer Ink Self-Destruct Sequence (arstechnica.com)

HP should apologize to customers and restore the ability of printers to use third-party ink cartridges, the Electronic Frontier Foundation (EFF) said in a letter to the company's CEO yesterday. From an ArsTechnica report:HP has been sabotaging OfficeJet Pro printers with firmware that prevents use of non-HP ink cartridges and even HP cartridges that have been refilled, forcing customers to buy more expensive ink directly from HP. The self-destruct mechanism informs customers that their ink cartridges are "damaged" and must be replaced. "The software update that prevented the use of third-party ink was reportedly distributed in March, but this anti-feature itself wasn't activated until September," EFF Special Advisor Cory Doctorow wrote in a letter to HP Inc. CEO Dion Weisler. "That means that HP knew, for at least six months, that some of its customers were buying your products because they believed they were compatible with any manufacturer's ink, while you had already planted a countdown timer in their property that would take this feature away. Your customers will have replaced their existing printers, or made purchasing recommendations to friends who trusted them on this basis. They are now left with a less useful printer -- and possibly a stockpile of useless third-party ink cartridges."

Comments

Just don't buy HP

[mmiscool]

Just don't buy HP

Re:Just don't buy HP

[Anonymous Coward]

This right here.

Re:Just don't buy HP

[Anonymous Coward]

That doesn't help all the people who bought HP before they knew this "feature" would activate at a later date.

Re:Just don't buy HP

[omnichad]

Yeah, great hindsight there. If you said so in March with details on why, that would have actually been useful.

Re:Just don't buy HP

[KiloByte]

Yeah, but "don't buy HP printers" has been good advice for at least 20 years.

Re:Just don't buy HP

[Anonymous Coward]

GM should open gas stations, then make the cars fail when you use other gas in the car.
They could do it via an OnStar update.

Re:Just don't buy HP

[mwvdlee]

How do you not buy HP retroactively?

Re:Just don't buy HP

[tripleevenfall]

What is this "printer" thing you people speak of?

Re:Just don't buy HP

[spire3661]

This is where we are now. Everything you buy today is sold with Darth Vader terms "I've altered the deal, pray i dont alter it further" with no recourse other than to not buy or stop using it. IN the past you could work around these things, but DMCA kills most of that.. Unless you are running open solutions, you are at their mercy. We are here, we have arrived. Its not some dystopian future, its here, now, today.

Re:Just don't buy HP

[spire3661]

Sunk cost fallacy. Cut your losses and move on.

Re: Just don't buy HP

[Anonymous Coward]

Don't buy hp anything. My last hp purchase was 14 years ago and I was sorry then.

Re:Just don't buy HP

[Anonymous Coward]

People have been saying for years that HP's inkjets where you have to replace the printer head with every cartridge and even when only one ink has run out is needlessly wasteful. It's not our fault that you refuse to pay attention.

Re:Just don't buy HP

[Darinbob]

I print personally maybe once a year, for taxes. A moderately priced home printer isn't good enough for that. At work, I print maybe 2 or 3 additional times per year. Printing is just becoming extremely rare for me.

My mother however likes to print a few times a year, and it's problematic. It's a second hand printer first of. But generally ink cartridges aren't working, nozzles get clogged, the color she wants is empty, several prints needed before it gets sized correctly, etc. If she understood things like thumb drives and how to use them she'd probably do better just taking it to the local drug store to print, or to a friend's house.

Re:Just don't buy HP

[thegarbz]

Just don't buy HP

Ahhh yes. The USA. Freedom to get screwed over by corporations where the only power is to not buy from corporations after the fact, or to start a class action lawsuit netting the victims of corporate sabotage a $15 discount voucher for their next HP product. And when we're finished boycotting every company we can go back to using a mechanical pencil, at least until one company decides to release a 0.35mm version and their own super expensive refills for that.

I think it's time the USA woke up to the fact that the anti-government / free market takes care of all of our problems approach is not necessarily having the best outcomes.

Re:Just don't buy HP

[thegarbz]

Yeah, but "don't buy HP printers" has been good advice for at least 20 years.

So has don't buy Canon. Oh and didn't Lexmark start this whole cartridge encoding thing? And then there was Brother's reputation for jamming more than a fruit preservative factory.

The only good advice is to use pencil and hope you never need to duplicate pages at home because quite frankly all printer companies have shown some level of dickish behaviour.

Re:Just don't buy HP

[omnichad]

That's an entirely separate issue and the reason I don't personally use HP. However, it's not so bad that I would have recommended against them. Especially for everyday consumers who let the ink dry out in the printhead.

Re:Just don't buy HP

[ShanghaiBill]

What is this "printer" thing you people speak of?

If you deal with governments, lawyers, or doctors, you still need to print stuff on paper. I emailed a form to my local hospital, and they called and said I had to fax it. So I "e-signed" it, and sent it with my fax card. They called again and said that they could not accept e-signatures, so I had to print it out, sign it with real physical ink, scan it back in, and then fax the image. That was two months ago, and I haven't used my printer since.

Re:Just don't buy HP

[Anonymous Coward]

I think it's time the USA woke up to the fact that the anti-government / free market takes care of all of our problems approach is not necessarily having the best outcomes.

Yes, clearly the solution is an even bigger monopoly, one that you're forced to do business with at the point of a gun. For added comic relief, we could put people like Trump and Clinton in charge of the whole thing. Do you perchance have a newsletter to which I could subscribe?

Re:Just don't buy HP

[Anonymous Coward]

This. And it will only become worse. When - not if - TTIP or some mutated offspring of it are passed, *ANY* form of circumvention or recourse will cease to be. Forever. We might see FOSS become illegal in short time as well, as "unfair competition". The world will belong to half a dozen megacorporations, at first. Then it will become two. Then one. National sovereignty is already on its way out, superseded by global authorities. Privatization of those authorities is a matter of time. Welcome to the end of times.

Re:Just don't buy HP

[David_Hart]

I print personally maybe once a year, for taxes. A moderately priced home printer isn't good enough for that. At work, I print maybe 2 or 3 additional times per year. Printing is just becoming extremely rare for me.

My mother however likes to print a few times a year, and it's problematic. It's a second hand printer first of. But generally ink cartridges aren't working, nozzles get clogged, the color she wants is empty, several prints needed before it gets sized correctly, etc. If she understood things like thumb drives and how to use them she'd probably do better just taking it to the local drug store to print, or to a friend's house.

Laser printer... No clogged heads, dried ink, etc....

Re:Just don't buy HP

[Tharkkun]

This is where we are now. Everything you buy today is sold with Darth Vader terms "I've altered the deal, pray i dont alter it further" with no recourse other than to not buy or stop using it. IN the past you could work around these things, but DMCA kills most of that.. Unless you are running open solutions, you are at their mercy. We are here, we have arrived. Its not some dystopian future, its here, now, today.

Well if 3rd parties didn't create absolute substandard ink cartridges HP wouldn't be forced to do this. Instead you buy a 3rd party cartridge. It leaks or breaks in your printer. You call HP because your product is broken and they find out you didn't use a HP cartridge. Now it becomes a huge problem for their support department when trying to determine fault. Do you refuse support and send them to the 3rd party to fix their printer? That makes HP look bad... So it only makes sense to ban 3rd party cartridges.

Re:Just don't buy HP

[Anonymous Coward]

Pretty close to 20 years. LJ4+ was EOLed in 1996.

Re: Just don't buy HP

[Grishnakh]

Oh please, what a pile of crap.

I have an HP printer, and it's excellent. It's a LaserJet 2300d, made in 2003. It's only 13 years old.

Re:Just don't buy HP

[jdavidb]

I'm coming at you from an HP laptop I bought this year and have been happy with. But I bought a printer this year and after hearing that they are acting like such bastards about it I am very glad I didn't buy HP.

I bought a Brother double sided laser printer for $80 or $90 dollars off of Amazon. It also functions as a scanner, and third party cartridges for it from Amazon cost about $10-$15 and have worked great so far. I have been extremely happy with it. The double sided printing has been very helpful for some of my kids' school projects this year, and my wife and I had some paperwork we needed to scan earlier this year. The software for the thing is a little bit jerky (it asked if I want it to check for updates, and when it does it "helpfully" tells me about other software I might want), but that's nowhere near as bad as what HP is apparently doing with their printers.

Re: Just don't buy HP

[Anonymous Coward]

This.

I have an HP LJ2100, so about 16 years old, still works fine and I've been using non-HP toner cartridges for years. I recently (a couple of years ago now) bought an HP color laser (400 series) so I could print color (got tired of replacing cartidges on the OfficeJet) and do full duplex.

I don't print often but when I do it's typically a lot of pages -- I'm a writer and still prefer hardcopy and a pencil for a final edit pass.

Re:Just don't buy HP

[laurencetux]

the problem is when the OEM carts are the inferior product.

what should happen is somebody should develop a printer where the head and the ink "tank" are completely separate and then publish a spec for the ink itself and the tank (with details on how big/heavy the tank should be max to prevent the carriage from getting damaged).

also any product with OTA/OTN firmware upgrades should have an actual physical jumper to enable/disable the flashing process

Re:Just don't buy HP

[Jawnn]

Oh, STFU you Rand fan boy. This, right here, is a prime example of why your vaunted "free market" does not work. Did you RTFA? You know, the part about how HP sneaked this update in well before activating it? Free market's require informed consumers. Furthermore, it requires that what I thought I bought continues to be what I bought. Changing my property without my informed consent is all kinds of wrong.

Re:Just don't buy HP

[martinX]

Thank you. I needed that. I have a colour laser printer from HP that's stuffed, not because they've done anything to deliberately disable it, it's just crap.

Re:Just don't buy HP

[macs4all]

This is where we are now. Everything you buy today is sold with Darth Vader terms "I've altered the deal, pray i dont alter it further" with no recourse other than to not buy or stop using it. IN the past you could work around these things, but DMCA kills most of that.. Unless you are running open solutions, you are at their mercy. We are here, we have arrived. Its not some dystopian future, its here, now, today.

Yeah, good luck building that Open Source Printer...

Re: Just don't buy HP

[swalve]

HP printers have been hunks of shit since the 4200 (or so) series. I believe, but can't be sure, that's when they stopped using Canon print engines and went with their own. Lexmark was dogshit for quite some time as well, but the MS and CS series printers are pretty bullet-proof.

Re:Just don't buy HP

[reboot246]

I hope the technology they used to treat your illness was a little more advanced than their antique fax machines. Are they keeping your medical records on 21st century machines? Doesn't exactly inspire confidence in them, does it?

Re:Just don't buy HP

[swalve]

I think they did, but they are pretty open about it. At least on current models. Also, their consumables are relatively cheap.

Re:Just don't buy HP

[macs4all]

This is where we are now. Everything you buy today is sold with Darth Vader terms "I've altered the deal, pray i dont alter it further" with no recourse other than to not buy or stop using it. IN the past you could work around these things, but DMCA kills most of that.. Unless you are running open solutions, you are at their mercy. We are here, we have arrived. Its not some dystopian future, its here, now, today.

Well if 3rd parties didn't create absolute substandard ink cartridges HP wouldn't be forced to do this. Instead you buy a 3rd party cartridge. It leaks or breaks in your printer. You call HP because your product is broken and they find out you didn't use a HP cartridge. Now it becomes a huge problem for their support department when trying to determine fault. Do you refuse support and send them to the 3rd party to fix their printer? That makes HP look bad... So it only makes sense to ban 3rd party cartridges.

Your reasoning falls-apart because HP didn't DISCLOSE that their driver update SURREPTITIOUSLY installed what amounted to a LOGIC BOMB in their Printer. Show me where it disclosed that in the EULA. Otherwise, it is by definition a FRAUD upon the consumer.

Re:Just don't buy HP

[wbr1]

Get a $100 brother laser. B&w o ly bit no clogs and just works. Hook it to USB so it can't lose wifi settings and forget about it.

Re:Just don't buy HP

[wbr1]

Had to make an ER trip for a kidney stone recently. Payment terminals were still Windows XP.

Re:Just don't buy HP

[Anonymous Coward]

Class action suit? I thought these went the way of the dodo as soon as the Supreme Court said these could be excluded in the fine print...

Re:Just don't buy HP

[macs4all]

That's an entirely separate issue and the reason I don't personally use HP. However, it's not so bad that I would have recommended against them. Especially for everyday consumers who let the ink dry out in the printhead.

Yeah, the alternative is exactly that.

I had to trash an almost-new $500 Epson inkjet; because the head WASN'T in the cartridge, and if you didn't print at least once or twice per week, the ink turned to some sort of "concrete", that, despite my best efforts and best Googling, would not dissolve with anything that wouldn't also turn the print head to mush.

So, I'm kinda glad that HP decided to put the print-head into the print cartridge, thankyouverymuch.

Re:Just don't buy HP

[Anonymous Coward]

My Radeon graphics card comes with a "if you overclock, you void your warranty" option. Seems like a reasonable middle ground, especially if it's out of warranty. Stay faithful for however long the warranty lasts for and then leave it up to the consumer.

Re:Just don't buy HP

[macs4all]

I think it's time the USA woke up to the fact that the anti-government / free market takes care of all of our problems approach is not necessarily having the best outcomes.

So you think this update was only for HP printers sold in the USA?

Stupid git.

Re:Just don't buy HP

[Kernel Kurtz]

Yes, for both individuals and businesses who are making a decision based on cost of ownership, HP's just went up a lot.

Probably moved them way down the list on the value for your dollar scale now. Not to mention they are no longer trustworthy either.

Re:Just don't buy HP

[Kernel Kurtz]

That is what class actions are for.

Re:Just don't buy HP

[drinkypoo]

I'm coming at you from an HP laptop I bought this year and have been happy with. But I bought a printer this year and after hearing that they are acting like such bastards about it I am very glad I didn't buy HP.

I am still using a HPLJ2300DN with a jetdirect card in, and I love it. But I had an HP laptop with the G71 Quadro FX1500 which had a known wire bonding problem. It took over 24 hours of phone time to get the machine replaced. Fuck HP sideways. I won't buy anything new of theirs. I hear there's another printer made about the same time as the 2300 which is a little bigger and fancier and also good, but this fucker is multi-protocol and prints 17 PPM at 600 dpi which is really enough for anyone... who's just printing documentation.

Re:Just don't buy HP

[thegarbz]

So you think this update was only for HP printers sold in the USA?

Wow you really have the reading comprehension of a 2 year old.

Stupid git.

Words fail me.

Re:Just don't buy HP

[thegarbz]

Do you perchance have a newsletter to which I could subscribe?

No. But you can read about my thoughts in the legal systems of many other countries. But don't worry American't the rest of the world will bail you out when our consumer advocacy agencies which actually have teeth solve this mess for you. Just like we did with the Xbox red ring fiasco.

Re:Just don't buy HP

[LinuxIsGarbage]

Laser printer... No clogged heads, dried ink, etc....

While old HP Laserjets are legendary, even my clearance model 5 year old Samsung Monochrome laser all in one is great when I need to print off the very rare printout... I still have the original ream of paper I bought with it.

That was the last printer I bought. I've had good luck with a couple low end Samsung Monochrome lasers before it.

Re:Just don't buy HP

[sconeu]

My ancient Samsung ML-1710 has been running for years. My Samsung CLP-300 color laser, on the other hand, jams every third page. I've given up using it. One of these days I'll get rid of it and free up desk space

Re:Just don't buy HP

[jimtheowl]

New technology may be faster, but planned obsolescence and corporate greed means that it is not always better, nor more reliable.

Records are also a lot easier to steal and falsify on 21st century machines than they used to be.

Re:Just don't buy HP

[Anonymous Coward]

You talkin bad bout Merka??!! Well see here. Erythang's gunna be aight, cause we turnin thangs round, SON!

Re:Just don't buy HP

[unixisc]

I'd only consider a laser combo device that's colored value for money, but that costs an arm and both legs

Re:Just don't buy HP

[gweihir]

People may need to learn the hard way that there is no free lunch here. If HP original printer + third party ink looks like a deal that is too good to be true, it probably is. Not defending the underhanded and dishonorable tactics of HP here, but in the end they have to make a profit and if they make a loss on the printer, they have to sell their own ink to compensate. This should not come as a surprise and neither should it be a surprise that HP would resort to sabotage.

The right approach is, of course, to buy from a manufacturer that is upfront about the cost both for printer and ink so that they make a profit on both and hence can live with only selling the printer. This whole problem exists because HP printer customers apparently cannot do basic math and are far too trusting. And no, that is not victim-blaming, that is just pointing out the basic fact that if you make yourself look like a victim, some con-men will find you. Here it has been HP.

Re:Just don't buy HP

[UnknownSoldier]

> or to start a class action lawsuit netting the victims of corporate sabotage a $15 discount voucher for their next HP product.

$15 !?

Usually the lawyers make millions and the people get a $0.10 refund.

Re:Just don't buy HP

[Anne Thwacks]

HP. However, it's not so bad that I would have recommended against them

Their software, however, is the work of the devil, and its "quality and reliability" entirely justify jailing the entire board of directors - possibly to several life sentences each.

Re: Just don't buy HP

[Grishnakh]

I'm fairly sure the 2x00 series printers used Canon engines.

Anyway, my 2300 is 13 years old now and still works great, though the plastic is yellowing. The 2200d I have before that was great too, but was slower and didn't have as many features, but it was quite reliable.

Re:Just don't buy HP

[Anonymous Coward]

And then there was Brother's reputation for jamming more than a fruit preservative factory.

I've used the expression "jammin' more than Bob Marley" to describe similar circumstances. -PCP

Re:Just don't buy HP

[blindseer]

That's been my advice for 20 years.

Just had another "I'm getting old" moment there.

Re:Just don't buy HP

[ChoGGi]

$300 isn't too bad
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B016...

Re:Just don't buy HP

[Anonymous Coward]

We only sell HP printers because HP is the only company that has good documentation which can be utilized to identify good and bad models. I'll admit that this would not have resolved this though. However they still are better than the other companies in some ways and every other manufacturer has a ton of reasons not to go that route either. Like *they don't release the full set of source code* needed to be properly supported on GNU/Linux systems. At least with some model HP printers you can get proper support. The only problem is that there is still non-free firmware running on the printers themselves, but as far as the software needed to connect there isn't any non-free driver/OS-loadable firmware needed.

Re:Just don't buy HP

[Anonymous Coward]

Wow - no. We don't need government. What we need is a company to step up to the plate and sell printers where they provide 100% of the source code which runs on the printer and the drivers needed for them. Humorously HP is one of the few companies that bothers to document this and you can check which models *really* suck. I don't think this would have solved the problem in this particular case, but it's not like any other manufacturer currently around is any better. This is a matter of opportunity for someone to get into the market or and opportunity for *somebody* to compete on different terms.

Government would just step in and regulate things increasing the costs of doing business which would ensure startup competition can't get its foot in the door.

Re:Just don't buy HP

[TheGratefulNet]

I'd only consider a laser combo device that's colored value for money, but that costs an arm and both legs

that's racist.

#rgbPrintHeadsMatter

Re:Just don't buy HP

[RoverDaddy]

I realize it's a pain, but print something once a week whether you need it or not. I print some coupons from a local discount store. One sheet a week will keep things working. And I only have black ink in my printer (miraculously it complains that the cartridges need alignment but it prints anyway).

Re:Just don't buy HP

[Anonymous Coward]

If you actually have a legitimate claim:

- Sue them in Small Claims Court
The printers are so dirt cheap now, they might not even bother showing up which means an automatic judgement in your favor.

- Use your credit card's extended warranty coverage and make a claim.
Now HP is forced to deal with a big bank, which they aren't going to screw around with. If enough customers start making claims, the banks will start putting the screws to HP because it's starting to affect the banks' bottom lines.

Re: Just don't buy HP

[Anonymous Coward]

They never stopped using Canon engines for their lasers, and probably never will, except for some of their heavy copiers.

Re:Just don't buy HP

[Anonymous Coward]

Why are you so fucking stupid?

Re: Just don't buy HP

[Anonymous Coward]

Mine is a LaserJet 4L, purchase in 1994. Still works like a champ. Wouldn't touch the inkjet models with a stick, though.

Re:Just don't buy HP

[Anonymous Coward]

This sort of thing should be illegal! As should the price gouging that has been going on for decades on printer ink! I did some calculations a few years ago on the cost of ink refills. Basically the ink would have cost over $3500.00 per gallon! This was not the cost of refilled cartridges, but just the ink refills themselves.

Region codes, and now having to get price gouged for HP cartridges is making going paperless as much as possible look better and better all the time!

Re:Just don't buy HP

[blackest_k]

ML 2510 here also keeps slogging on, usually the rollers need a wipe with a lens tissue about every 2 years or so. it is bad for the rubber so it doesn't get done unnecessarily.

I really like the cartridge protection on the cartridge. It keeps a count to around 5000 pages before it starts to refuse to print more than 1 page at a time (you have 2 switch it off in between prints).

I found this out when swopping between 2 cartridges, I had refilled one with a bottle of toner that wasn't perfect it puts a line down a page but for print outs it is ok, so I use it when a print doesn't need to be high quality.

But back to the cartridge protection the counter reset is digital with a fuse :)

A new cartridge has a fuse attached to a holder on the back it isn't electrically connected to it.

it's around a 200/400mA fuse TV repair shops keep them for repair jobs.
when a new cartridge goes in it connects to the fuse and blows it

the effect is a digital 1 0 using a bit of foil gets a 1 1 and that will not do the reset.

Taking out and reinsert the cartridge that is a 0 0 so the counter keeps counting which is why it caught me using 2 cartridges, the page count got too high , low on toner just means you have probably printed enough pages to have used most of it. There is no measurement of toner.

But isn't that such cool protection, no chips on the cartridge just a plain old fuse. One of my old canon inkjets shines an led through the cartridge when light gets detected then it is out of ink and needs refilling :)

One of my favorite printers is an epson it can do black & white photo printing with just the black cartridge you need to tell it to print gray scale on plain paper but use photo paper. With a little tweaking usually lightening the image a little you get a really nice print. With the normal method the inkjet mixes magenta and cyan which tends to lead to magenta in the shadows and cyan in the highlights and this degrades over time due to the uv. with the single black it stays true black from start to finish.

I have prints using both techniques and the color ones are a pale miscolored comparison after just a few years where the black ink printed ones are still looking as good as the day i printed them. For something exceptional a silver halide print is still the best.

Re:Just don't buy HP

[Anonymous Coward]

The manufacturers want vendor lock-in, it's the razor-blade business model. This mythical person does not exist. We have it across every product. The world's best selling tablets and mobile phones have batteries that start to die after two years, and were barely hold a charge at five. They're soldered to the main board and are specialist level requirements for replacements - a cost beyond the value of the crippled design. We have light bulbs talking back to the Philips mother-ship, we have clothing with weaves designed to fail after a few usages (ever noticed why shirts, t-shirts and dresses develop a rotation?) We have TVs that will not function fully unless they can communicate with Sony, Samsung and LG's whatever the fsck. Even laundry machines are coming with online functionality thanks to $5 SoC.

Firmware is in the past. All of these devices are running Linux based OSes, the kernel isn't being updated, a few python programs are.

Re:Just don't buy HP

[Xest]

Whilst I'd never defend manufacturers grossly inflated ink prices, I do recall years ago, in my first ever job I had to repair printers sometimes and you could always tell when people had bought 3rd party ink because it genuinely did completely fuck up the print heads. It would just clog the things up, and it'd be a nightmare cleaning the dodgy ink off, my advice back then was to suck it up and buy 1st party, because it was still cheaper than getting your printer repaired, or replacing it every 6 months. The other advantage of 1st party ink is that you could go without printing for months and still be able to print, with 3rd party your printer would basically be dead at that point without excessive use of solvents to eliminate the ink and even then it was hit and miss.

Does anyone know what the quality is like on these 3rd party inks nowadays? I'm assuming it's improved, or is there still some merit in the buy 1st party because 3rd party ink still clogs up your machine? If it was the latter I'd have at least some sympathy for HP, because it must have drastically increased support costs for them back then for a problem that was not really of their making. Does it still remain true now does anyone know? I haven't used ink based printers in a long time now, let alone had to repair any for the best part of 2 decades so I'm not really up on their resilience.

Again though, given this is Slashdot and you have to repeat yourself a lot, I'm not defending the costs here of 1st party ink, I agree it's extortionate and I absolutely agree what HP did here was wrong - you should never retroactively change people's systems, at worst they should just detect refilled or 3rd party cartridges and void warranty for repairs resulting from their use but still leave it up to users to decide what they want to do.

Re:Just don't buy HP

[jaklode]

The print head is basically irrelevant, as it's part of the ink cartridge anyway, at least on recent HP printers.

Re: Just don't buy HP

[Anonymous Coward]

Stock up on a years supply of toner and let us know if it works after the 6 month mark.

Alternatively try to print from Win10 on that 13-year old printer.

Re:Just don't buy HP

[Anonymous Coward]

It works for Microsoft, why wouldn't other companies be all over this?

Re:Just don't buy HP

[Anonymous Coward]

I must have missed the story about HP sending out teams of ninjas to break into homes and offices, installing the new firmware on non-networked machines. Or could it be that in fact, the consumer still has the ultimate power as long as they aren't stupid enough to expose every appliance to the Internet. And yes, that may mean you'll have to refrain from buying the latest 'smart' tv or smart toaster or smart lightbulb with built in spyware crap.

Re:Just don't buy HP

[ausekilis]

Wait... RMS was right?

I'm sure there's gonna be flames in all directions for that comment... The guy can be fanatical, but he does have some good points about giving up our freedoms.

Re:Just don't buy HP

[Anonymous Coward]

Except wide use of arbitration clauses makes that impossible.

Re: Just don't buy HP

[Grishnakh]

Stock up on a years supply of toner and let us know if it works after the 6 month mark.

Yeah, why wouldn't it? I've had the same toner cartridge in there now for at least 3 years, and I print to it every few days at a minimum. Works great.

Alternatively try to print from Win10 on that 13-year old printer.

Why would I give a shit about that? Besides, it's a Postscript printer; if Windows can't handle that, then Windows is broken.

Re:Just don't buy HP

[Anonymous Coward]

I've had problems like this trying to buy a house.

Realtor: Can do nearly everything as e-sign.

Finance company: Some e-sign but a few things have to be done with paper and ink, but at least they accept a scan from a scanner or a picture from my phone.

Both of the above are very flexible and process things quickly, but from here it goes down hill:

Retirement services (for 401k loan check for closing/down payment): We ONLY accept paperwork through physical mail or fax. Oh, and you need this processed quickly? Sorry, it's 2 days to "order the paperwork" that just requests some other paperwork which could have just been uploaded when the loan request was made if they were with the times. No, lets live in the dark ages. Once this paperwork is "ordered" we will mail it by standard mail only, but if you call us and wait on hold a while we'll agree to fax instead, but that takes another day to send the fax. Once you have the paperwork requesting more paperwork we want you to reply by mail, but again if you call and wait on hold forever we will agree to accept a fax, oh but it takes two more days to "scan the fax" into our system. Oh, and there is still processing of the paperwork which takes 3 more days, on the 3rd of which we will call you and tell you we need something more that we never asked for, so lets go through the whole fax+processing delay again. Finally we "approve it" on the 2nd try and write a check, oh but this takes two more days to process, and then the only option is to mail a check as we can only do ACH deposit to banks, not credit unions. It's standard mail, but we will overnight it if you pay us some money.

Then the title company: Oh, we only accept wire transfers for down payment/closing.

Credit Union: Yeah, you can deposit that 401k check that you received this morning today, but because of the amount you can't smart deposit with your phone and it takes 7 days to clear, so we can't wire anything yet. If you ask real nice and provide some paperwork I'll talk to my manager and override the hold to shorten the hold to 3 days so you can do the wire sooner, and wires this large have to be done in person so you have to come back. Oh, and by the way once it's clear you have to do the wire before 3pm or else it's delayed another 22 hours before being sent. Sorry, looks like you have to delay closing yet again.

Ugh. I know some of this stuff is expected, but dealing with retirement services is the worst of it. Get with the times!

Re:Just don't buy HP

[Lothsahn]

I use an HP 4600DN. Yeah, it weighs a TON, and I had to have it shipped via pallet, but it's indestructible, Laser (no drying out), has compatible color cartridges, and it prints color.

The color quality for picture is good, but not amazing, and for documents it just works. I've had to buy one toner cartridge in the last 3 years. Works under Linux.

Getting a printer cartridge that didn't smear or leak, though, was an entirely other problem. The official HP ones cost $300 per cartridge, which is way too much, but most of the aftermarket ones leak or smear or have some random problem. I went through 4 cartridges to replace a single one (with the other 3 sent back as defective).

Re: Just don't buy HP

[BundyGil]

I got caught with this firmware update and i'm using genuine hp cartridges. I'm still able to print but have to go through a rigmarole to do so. I've complainted to the Australian ACCC national consumer authority as hp's action is quite illegal there with really hefty fines. This will concentrate hp's mind.

Re:Just don't buy HP

[spire3661]

I thought Magnusson-Moss Act killed this argument 40 years ago. This is the same argument the automakers used to try and lock out 3rd party parts.

Re:Just don't buy HP

[omnichad]

I usually only let Windows auto-install drivers rather than downloading the installer package to try to avoid the junk. I seem to remember Windows 10 offering a way for OEMs to push the bloat down the wire with the drivers now, though, and I don't know if they've started doing it.

Re:Just don't buy HP

[unixisc]

Your link provides just the printer: toss in the toner, and it's close to $500

Re:Just don't buy HP

[Anonymous Coward]

What is this "printer" thing you people speak of?

If you deal with governments, lawyers, or doctors, you still need to print stuff on paper. I emailed a form to my local hospital, and they called and said I had to fax it. So I "e-signed" it, and sent it with my fax card. They called again and said that they could not accept e-signatures, so I had to print it out, sign it with real physical ink, scan it back in, and then fax the image. That was two months ago, and I haven't used my printer since.

If this was 2 months ago and you use it that rarely, it makes more sense to just go to a FedEx Kinkos or UPS, get your work done and be done with it. Besides, if you had a png or bmp image of your signature, you could have pasted it there and still e-faxed it back.

I live in the US, where I normally do this, but occasionally travel to India. There, having a printer at home does make sense, since most Xerox shops would allow you to photocopy cheaply, but if you need to print stuff, or worse, yet, scan stuff, or do anything in color, first finding such a place is complicated, and also, costs pile up. So at my family home there, I do have a 3-in-1, and use it whenever I need to.

Re:Just don't buy HP

[Areyoukiddingme]

My Samsung CLP-300 color laser, on the other hand, jams every third page.

A little fine grit sandpaper applied to all the internal rollers will fix that. The rubber rollers get too smooth as they age and harden and begin to grip the paper unevenly, which causes jams. One grips, another doesn't, screws everything up. The sandpaper trick works for quite a while. When it stops working, you just replace the rollers and all is well. There are kits for HP and Xerox laser printer rollers. Might be something for Samsung too. The ones for HP run around $15 for the five or six rollers you need to replace (depending on the model).

Re:Just don't buy HP

[unixisc]

Yeah, that is somewhat insane. The original Windows 8 - the version that came w/ the Metro UX and depended heavily on touch - would have been ideal for this application

Re:Just don't buy HP

[Areyoukiddingme]

So has don't buy Canon. Oh and didn't Lexmark start this whole cartridge encoding thing? And then there was Brother's reputation for jamming more than a fruit preservative factory.

The only good advice is to use pencil and hope you never need to duplicate pages at home because quite frankly all printer companies have shown some level of dickish behaviour.

All wannabe's anyway, HP included. I bought a business-class Xerox color laser off-lease and it has never betrayed me. It's ridiculously large and overpowered for what I need, since I turn it on maybe two or three times a year, but it has 4 independent toner cartridges for CMYK and Just Works, Windows and Linux over the network (it has its own Ethernet port). Never dries out, can do color if I need it, driver supports black-only printing so I don't waste color toner needlessly, and it's built like a tank. Weighs about as much as a tank too. When I turn it on, it emails me to tell me how it's feeling. Vast statistics on page counts, drum age, toner quantities, etc.

Re:Just don't buy HP

[K10W]

That doesn't help all the people who bought HP before they knew this "feature" would activate at a later date.

in fairness most who actually research a printer will steer clear of them as HP are one of the worst and have been for a long time, it is folks who bought it due to sale price or it was the first thing they saw in store etc who'd been burned most likely. Canon and Epson are the only two in the game really and even then you need to research and be careful what you install. With decent aftermarket ink and good resetter etc the right printers from those two companies tend to be fine for their life. I've been through several canon ip4500/4600/4700 that I've printed massive amounts through to the point I had to replace them due to not being worth servicing past a certain point; I'd change waste ink pad and use fw hacks, new print heads and so on a couple of times before death but cheap enough to replace once they are knackered. My pro-10 is still doing fine but I steered clear of the next model up I was going to get as the Pro-1 waste ink and the extra greys didn't make a difference big enough to put up with that. Similar things with epson and some I've dealt with in past or friends who run them are a dream with CIS setups but some models are nightmare to operate like that.

Re:Just don't buy HP

[ChoGGi]

If you want to get the official toner
https://www.amazon.com/Compati...

Re:Just don't buy HP

[Xest]

Fair enough, I guess that's one way to solve the clogged print heads problem - make the fucking things disposable :)

Re:Just don't buy HP

[cthulhu11]

Or if you want to be able to board an airplane when you're delayed and your phone's battery runs out.

Re:Just don't buy HP

[Anonymous Coward]

"The other advantage of 1st party ink is that you could go without printing for months and still be able to print, with 3rd party your printer would basically be dead at that point without excessive use of solvents to eliminate the ink and even then it was hit and miss."

That advantage dried up (so to speak) a long time ago. If you don't use a HP printer regularly even with genuine HP printheads and inktanks (business inkjets) or cartridges (domestic systems) then they gunge up. Idleness is the enemy of inkjets (and waxjets) - which is why we've pretty much expunged them entirely at $orkplace. Those people who absolutely must have personal printers (sensitive materials) get lasers, otherwise we end up with a fulltime support position just cleaning printers.

Brother

[Anonymous Coward]

I can't recommend their small lasers highly enough. Canon is also good for inkjet and there is 3rd-party ink widely available.

There was once a reason to buy HP printers but there really isn't anymore, unless you need a large-format plotter or something.

Re:Brother

[Bob the Super Hamste]

I got a Samsung color laser about 6 years ago and am only on the second set of toner cartridges and it is going strong. Unfortunately I do need to print color often enough that getting a color laser instead of a black and white made sense. That said I don't print off pictures at home as there are cheaper services for that and give me better results. At the time it was one of the better small laser printers and convinced the wife that we would save money the first time we didn't have to go buy a set of ink cartridges for the epson it replaced because they dried out. My usage is very sporadic, I will go months without printing and then I will end up printing 300-400 pages in a month, so ink drying out and nozzles getting cloggedwas a problem.

Re:Brother

[Anonymous Coward]

Brother InkJet's suffer from the DRM foolishness along with HP. They have "chips" in the carts that, after one or two uses, render the cartridge useless in your printer so refilling them is not recommended. (Although, I'm told the cartridge will work just fine in another printer that's not seen it before.)

There is quite the cottage industry that's sprung up producing compatible chips that "reset" each time you insert them. Problem is, Brother has continued to release new firmware updates (cleverly installed with little user interaction or notification) that renders existing "refillable" cartridges useless once more. This has pushed the price of refillable cartridges to nearly the cost of new OEM ones, and carries the risk that the next firmware update will make the investment a waste after the first use.

Where I like my Brother MFC InkJet for durability and print quality, the cost of OEM ink is a bit much if you ask me.

HP should be shut down

[Anonymous Coward]

Do the world a favor.

Re:HP should be shut down

[Anonymous Coward]

Nope, make a bigger statement. Confiscate all of the stock and give one share to each poor bastard who bought the printer. Let the previous shareholders sue the directors, personally, for fraud that led to loss.

Probably actually illegal

[bluefoxlucid]

This is probably actually illegal. Sony had to pay a settlement for disabling Linux on the PS3; HP is doing the same, so has at least a civil suit. Uniquely, however, HP has proven that their product is compatible with third-party ink, and has taken action to specifically to lock-out competition. That's probably an instance of Tying, and HP has sufficient market power to show that Tying is anti-competitive.

Re:Probably actually illegal

[Anonymous Coward]

So... lawyers are going to get several millions and consumers will get $5 off coupon for the next HP purchase. Great!

Re:Probably actually illegal

[rijrunner]

Probably, but I am reminded of the Microsoft/Stacker lawsuit. Stacker was a company that did on-the-fly disk compression for DOS systems. Microsoft met up with them and went through a lot of due diligence and saw a lot of Stacker's software code as part of a discussion about Microsoft licensing Stacker for the next version of DOS. They did not reach an agreement. Microsoft then incorporated a product in the next version that looked a lot like Stacker. Stacker sued and eventually won, but was already driven out of business by the time everything cleared court.

So, I ask you.. does it really matter if something is illegal if no one goes to jail and it is cheaper to pay a fine than deal with competition?

Re:Probably actually illegal

[Anonymous Coward]

I don't know about the USA, but in Brazil it *is* illegal, and as soon as enough such printers are "caught in the act" to be used as evidence, HP will be sued by PROTESTE (a consumer rights action group mostly made out of lawyers :p).

Re: Probably actually illegal

[Anonymous Coward]

Fines and other fees usually turn into tax deductions if your accountants are on the ball. Business ethics and regulatory capture seem to be mutually exclusive.

Re:Probably actually illegal

[Darinbob]

But will HP be punished enough so that they change their behavior? A suit is not always about getting rich.

Re:Probably actually illegal

[Darinbob]

I worked at a company next door to Slacker in the 90s. Long after the suit. And yet there was their building with a few actual people going in and out that we could see. The theory we had was that they were living off of the proceeds from the lawsuit, so yes, it was worth it for them.

Re:Probably actually illegal

[Darinbob]

Sorry, "Stacker", not "Slacker". Freudian slip.

Re:Probably actually illegal

[swb]

The payout from the lawsuit was probably over time and the people who got the proceeds probably paid less taxes to take it over time. Keeping the shell of the business running for a few years made sense financially even if it was just a sham operation that would eventually fold.

Re:Probably actually illegal

[Tharkkun]

I don't know about the USA, but in Brazil it *is* illegal, and as soon as enough such printers are "caught in the act" to be used as evidence, HP will be sued by PROTESTE (a consumer rights action group mostly made out of lawyers :p).

Except you void your warranty using non-HP ink so good luck with that.

Re:Probably actually illegal

[gurps_npc]

You are falling for the fallacy of scale.

Everyone knows that a candy bar is worth about $1-$2. So when you see someone get one for 50 cents, you know they underpaid, and when someone pays $10 for one, they overpaid.

But you have no idea the value of something like stakker. So they got a huge amount of money, it was their BUSINESS, and was beyond doubt worth a huge amount of money. If they had a $200 million company, but settled for $20 million, you would see that same thing as if they had settled for $400 million.

Usually you settle for a fraction of what you deserve, and the lawyers take 1/3 minimum to 1/2. The longer the suit, the higher percent they take.

Basically, you are some shmuch that looked where I pointed, saw a large hill and said "That's big" without ever realizing I was pointing at Mt. Killimanjaro behind the hill.

Re:Probably actually illegal

[Knightman]

A warranty cannot be voided if you replace a part that has a limited life due to being used up, for example ink-cartridges, paper in a printer, brake-pads on a car etc etc..

If someone claims otherwise they are wrong. Just check the Magnusson-Moss Warranty act regarding "Tie-in sales".

The only time you can void your warranty in this kind of instance is if you use 3rd party replacements parts even though the original manufacturer supplies the replacement for free OR if your 3rd party replacement breaks the equipment.

Re:Probably actually illegal

[tlhIngan]

Probably, but I am reminded of the Microsoft/Stacker lawsuit. Stacker was a company that did on-the-fly disk compression for DOS systems. Microsoft met up with them and went through a lot of due diligence and saw a lot of Stacker's software code as part of a discussion about Microsoft licensing Stacker for the next version of DOS. They did not reach an agreement. Microsoft then incorporated a product in the next version that looked a lot like Stacker. Stacker sued and eventually won, but was already driven out of business by the time everything cleared court.

That was an interesting lawsuit - and I think in the end it was the compression algorithm they used more than anything - I had a beta version fo DOS6 and a legit version of DOS6 and the two wouldn't work together. I called Microsoft Support one day about that and they sent me a disk with a DoubleSpace to DriveSpace conversion utility that converted one format to the other.

Re:Probably actually illegal

[rijrunner]

Not really...

They won an original settlement of $120 million (about $5.50 per copy of DOS sold) less $13.6 million awarded to Microsoft for their countersuit. That was never paid. Microsoft appealed the decision and hung it up in court. Eventually, they settled for Microsoft investing $39.9 million into Stac (ie, they ended up part owner of the company they screwed over) and $43 million for Stac to try to move into a different area. Stac tried other products, but failed. In 2002, they sold their remaining assets and refunded the money to their stockholders (including Microsoft).

Re:Probably actually illegal

[wbr1]

It is easier to ask/pay for forgiveness than permission.

Re:Probably actually illegal

[Anonymous Coward]

There's a difference between the thing failing due to natural causes and an company intentionally disabling 3rd party stuff.

Re:Probably actually illegal

[Darinbob]

No one could really predict what it would be worth had Microsoft not stolen it. Microsoft's software was very popular because it was from Microsoft and included by default, whereas a third party product would struggle to get a decent market share over time. On the other hand they could have done the partnership deal with Microsoft, but would they have gotten the same amount of money that way? This was slighlty before the era of Microsoft shafting everyone and buying out competitors for a dime and shutting them down.

Re:Probably actually illegal

[Anonymous Coward]

Short answer: no.

Long answer: no, but at least I have $5 off my next purchase of an HP printer!

Re:Probably actually illegal

[Anonymous Coward]

What they've done is definitely illegal in the EU. Look for a money-spinner coming out of there soon enough.

Re:Probably actually illegal

[bloodhawk]

HP et al have always stated 3rd party replacement cartridges and refills are not supported so they aren't removing functionality that they claimed to have when sold. Having said that the whole printer market is broken where they sell printers at cost or a loss with the intent of making the money on the cartridges. Best answer is don't buy from HP, but then they pretty much all operate the same model.

Re: Probably actually illegal

[bluefoxlucid]

A tax deduction is a smaller fine or fee. You get a $1 million fine, you deduct $1 million, you pay only $600,000.

Re:Probably actually illegal

[bluefoxlucid]

The "value" doesn't exist. Things don't have value; people place a valuation on things--a property of the observer, not the object. You might value (verb) a candy bar at $1, but it has no actual value (noun).

Things have a cost and a price. That cost is directly related to human labor time required to make the thing. All business expenses go to pay wages, buy from other businesses, and take profit. Recurse this and all business expenses reduce to wages, {alie profit+wages}, profit; which just becomes wages and profit. In aggregate, price can never be lower than wages; and the minimum sustainable wage is one that keeps your labor force alive (even slaves must eat and be sheltered from the cold, and it's cheaper to treat illness than to raise a new slave).

If that candy bar requires $1.80 to make and you value it at $1, you're not buying a candybar. If that's what people think of candy bars, then candy bars aren't a product until we invent technology to use roughly half as many people to make the same number of candy bars.

Your complaint essentially boils down to, "Stacker could have conned someone into paying a lot more than the business and its products were actually worth. You don't know how successful they'd have been at convincing people to overpay."

Re:Probably actually illegal

[Anonymous Coward]

No one could really predict what it would be worth had Microsoft not stolen it. Microsoft's software was very popular because it was from Microsoft and included by default, whereas a third party product would struggle to get a decent market share over time. On the other hand they could have done the partnership deal with Microsoft, but would they have gotten the same amount of money that way? This was slighlty before the era of Microsoft shafting everyone and buying out competitors for a dime and shutting them down.

What you are missing is that Microsoft could predict this overall. The total value of the companies that Microsoft was blocking was the entirety of the computing market. They knew that companies previously important in computing ( Eckert-Mauchly / DEC/ ICL / even IBM in the end) all ended up becoming part players in the end. For example, this company started by providing a data compression layer, but would probably soon have started providing a complete filesystem. Logically they would then port it to multiple systems providing compatibility and this would allow Microsoft's customers to escape and use dual solutions. In the end, this would mean Microsoft customers would have a choice and Microsoft themselves would not be able to dominate and plunder

Microsoft was treating each of these little companies as an existential threat. The only reasonable solution would be to invert their logic and treat each company Microsoft destroyed as worth a reasonable fraction (25%??) of the entire computing market.

Only one surprise

[AlanBDee]

The only surprise here is that anyone would still recommend HP printers.

Re:Only one surprise

[Fire_Wraith]

They're great for reenactments of Office Space, at least.

Re:Only one surprise

[thegarbz]

The only surprise here is that anyone would still recommend HP printers.

Since we don't recommend pretty much every printer company for various and often similar dickish behaviour (seriously you think HP had enough innovation left to come up with this? They just copied this from Lexmark, and added a time delay to make it look new), just what should we do?

Re:Only one surprise

[Anonymous Coward]

Epson and Canon make ink-jet printers that take tanks of ink that you can refill from a bottle. The printers are priced more like laser printers, but if you print a lot (and want ink-jet), you can do it.

Not every printer is sold using the razor-blade model.

Re:Only one surprise

[Fnord666]

Since we don't recommend pretty much every printer company for various and often similar dickish behaviour (seriously you think HP had enough innovation left to come up with this? They just copied this from Lexmark, and added a time delay to make it look new), just what should we do?

Maybe Lexmark could sue them for infringing their business model.

Re:Only one surprise

[martinfb]

Not me. I have been severely recommending against any HP product; due to excessive crap-ware on installs, and things like this ink cartridge scam.

I though every one was going paperless.

[mmiscool]

I though every one was going paperless.

I though every one was going paperless

[mmiscool]

I though every one was going paperless

Re:I though every one was going paperless

[Scarletdown]

I though every one was going paperless

For those of us who eek out a living in ecommerce mail order, affixing a tablet (even a cheapo one) with a jpg of a postage label on it to each package would be cost prohibitive. Because of this, we still have to actually print out our labels and tape them to the packages before mailing.

Re:I though every one was going paperless

[Grishnakh]

If you're doing that, you must be really clueless about ecommerce mail order, or you just got started and haven't figured out the proper way to do shipping.

The way you ship stuff is you buy a Zebra 4x6 label printer, and print your postage labels on that. Then you just peel and stick. You can even print these labels from within PayPal, though you can get better rates through places like encidia.com if you do a lot of volume (there's a monthly fee for those places though, so it's only worth it if you ship a lot of stuff).

Re:I though every one was going paperless

[Scarletdown]

If you're doing that, you must be really clueless about ecommerce mail order, or you just got started and haven't figured out the proper way to do shipping.

The way you ship stuff is you buy a Zebra 4x6 label printer, and print your postage labels on that. Then you just peel and stick. You can even print these labels from within PayPal, though you can get better rates through places like encidia.com if you do a lot of volume (there's a monthly fee for those places though, so it's only worth it if you ship a lot of stuff).

What I have been using for years is an HP Laserjet 4100 network printer my little brother gave me (with enough refilled toner cartridges to last me a lifetime). Before printing, I reduce the label size down to 80%. At that size, I only need three short strips of clear tape to apply the label. Since I do have a paper guillotine and a tape emoizer*, it is a pretty quick process nowadays. No need to spend money on dedicated sticky labels either, as I have a metric buttload of regular paper to print on, which is more than good enough.

* Tape Emoizer (n) a tape dispenser, because it turns a regular $1 roll of packaging tape into emo tape, which is tape that cuts itself.

Re:I though every one was going paperless

[Anonymous Coward]

FYI the word is "eke".

Re:I though every one was going paperless

[Scarletdown]

Thanks for the correction. It isn't an expression I use frequently, at least not in writing, so the typo should be understandable. ;)

Re:I though every one was going paperless

[Scarletdown]

And on that note, said printer is now undergoing a visit from the Fuck Up Fairy. Starting yesterday, the display was showing a message of "Data Received", but nothing was printing.

Then just a short while ago, I was able to have one system print out a test page, but now it is showing an EIO 2 Error 82.0181. If neither cycling the power nor a cold reset fixes it, then I will probably haul it over to my little brother's so he can help troubleshoot. Not sure if that would be tonight, or tomorrow night after we get back from the Def Leppard/REO Speedwagon/Tesla concert.

Either way, it will probably turn into an impromptu movies/munchies/alcohol/weed night. :D We are the types who can declare a Code 420 at most any time for most any reason (or no reason whatsoever at all).

Re:I though every one was going paperless

[macs4all]

If you're doing that, you must be really clueless about ecommerce mail order, or you just got started and haven't figured out the proper way to do shipping.

The way you ship stuff is you buy a Zebra 4x6 label printer, and print your postage labels on that. Then you just peel and stick. You can even print these labels from within PayPal, though you can get better rates through places like encidia.com if you do a lot of volume (there's a monthly fee for those places though, so it's only worth it if you ship a lot of stuff).

So, how does that make the labelling PAPERLESS?

And if you use a DTT (Direct Thermal Transfer) printer (which are the cheaper-type label printers), NOW you're putting Aluminum into the landfill ALONG with the paper.

VERY "green". NOT!!!

Re:I though every one was going paperless

[Grishnakh]

What in the fuck are you yapping about? Has the Apple cult driven you completely insane?

I never said anything about paperless anything; we're talking about printing here.

And WTF are you talking about with aluminum? Aluminum isn't environmentally-unfriendly, especially not in the minute quantities it might be used in thermal paper. It's certainly a lot better than using a bunch of plastic packing tape to tape labels to packages.

Re:I though every one was going paperless

[Grishnakh]

Peeling and sticking 4x6 labels is far easier.

And I'm not sure how you can reduce a label to 80% and have it still work, though I'm admittedly somewhat ignorant on barcode standards. Do the labels still even scan?

Sticky labels are dirt cheap if you buy them in bulk on Ebay.

Re:I though every one was going paperless

[Scarletdown]

Yes. They still scan. I actually verified that with our postal clerks a few years ago when I got the notion to shrink labels so smaller packages could be shipped. This has been discussed occasionally on the eBay seller forums. I think the record posted for label shrinkage was something like 50%, but don't quote me on that; since it has been a long time since such a discussion took place.

Re:I though every one was going paperless

[Grishnakh]

Thanks for the reply, this is actually good to know in case I have to deal with that in the future.

For my side business, I usually ship using 6"x9" manila envelopes, so a 4x6 sticker fits on that just fine. But my next project is to see if I can just use a laser printer with the paper path going straight through to print directly on the envelope, bypassing the sticker altogether.

Re:I though every one was going paperless

[YukariHirai]

And I'm not sure how you can reduce a label to 80% and have it still work, though I'm admittedly somewhat ignorant on barcode standards. Do the labels still even scan?

I do know a thing or two about barcodes. They're not based on absolute measurements of line thickness, they're proportional. Look at any random half dozen different items with barcodes on the packaging, odds are they'll all be the same standard and there'll be at least three different sizes represented. A barcode reader that can only read one specific size of barcode would be fucking useless.

Therefore, as long as the scaling is fairly precise, you can shrink (or grow) just about any given barcode and still reasonably expect it to scan. Allowing for how precise with small print or how wide an area the average barcode reader can handle, of course.

Brother laser printer $39 off Amazon

[Anonymous Coward]

I ran into this issue when the firmware auto updated and then all of the ink cartridges that I used to refill suddenly stopped working. There are a few hacks that involve putting tiny pieces of tape over the copper sensors of the ink cartridge, but it's not easily done. I ended up turning my HP printer into just a scanner and purchased a brother black/white laser printer off Amazon for $39. I've printed hundreds of documents and it's still running strong. My HP printer would print around 10 documents before running out of ink.

Go laser and never look back, black and white preferable unless you really need to print photos or something. We use Walgreens online for photos so don't really mind. What HP doesn't understand is they are shooting themselves in the foot over the longterm just to make short term profits.

Re: Brother laser printer $39 off Amazon

[Anonymous Coward]

Had a small Brother HL series laser for years, using refills with no problems. Also, GhostScript has a driver for lower end HLs that don't talk postscript, so all I needed to get it working on *any* unix was a filter script pushing the input to gs.

Re:Brother laser printer $39 off Amazon

[Anonymous Coward]

The last two multifuntion inkjet/scanners I had also disable the scanner if one inkjet cartridge went empty. One was Epson, the other HP. Using the printer for perhaps 20 pages per year cost $100 easily, because the print nozzles went through a cleaning process every time you turn it on just for scanning. Nice scam they have, they went into the trash. Replaced with Cannon multifuntion laser printer, one toner cartridge has lasted 3 years so far.

Re:Brother laser printer $39 off Amazon

[Mahldcat]

Ran into a fun scenario many moons ago when I was working for a Sylvan Learning Center. They would routinely print out hundreds (if not thousands) of student programs on an ink jet printer. Keep in mind that 90% of this stuff was black and white documentation. When I asked them about why they were wasting their money on cartridges for this, was told this is how they "did things?" Ultimately ended up researching what they were paying in ink per month combined with what they were paying to lease a standalone copy machine, and had the guy from the leasing company figure out what it would cost per month to upgrade the copy machine to a network copy machine/laser printer, and got them to buy off on the change. If memory serves, this ended up saving them like $500/month just on the price of ink cartridges....

Re:Brother laser printer $39 off Amazon

[michael_wojcik]

I'm in a similar situation. I got a free HP inkjet printer-scanner-copier (left behind by a college student, box never opened) a few years back. I've printed a few things on it, when I was at a secondary office, because it's reasonably portable; but at my main office, all my printing is done on a 1992 HP LaserJet 4M which I manually upgraded to add Postscript support. I've had to buy a few toner cartridges for it, but even after 24 years and tens of thousands of pages (I don't do a lot of printing) it still works fine.

I use it through one of those cheap USB-to-Centronics adapters. Required a bit of kluging to get the appropriate printer drivers installed on Windows and configured, but that was a tiny fraction of the hassle of using the inkjet printer.

I use the inkjet pretty much exclusively for scanning these days.

The real (and very bad) message: no updates

[whoever57]

This promotes the notion that you should never install updates. That's a really bad lesson.

Re:The real (and very bad) message: no updates

[Anonymous Coward]

How is this bad?

If a software is well designed and tested, with considerations of non-fonctional requirements such as security etc, there shoudn't need any update at all. Think spacial: do you think they can apply a patch on a 5 billion satellite launcher in the air?

Updates just give the manufacturer the possibility to sell you crap!

Re:The real (and very bad) message: no updates

[Calydor]

Wow.

Please show me this amazing code you have written that has zero bugs ever and runs flawlessly in scenarios you had no way of imagining when you wrote it.

Re:The real (and very bad) message: no updates

[Anonymous Coward]

This promotes the notion that you should never install updates. That's a really bad lesson.

Windows.

Re:The real (and very bad) message: no updates

[Anonymous Coward]

Wow. He never claimed that.

He said that updates which remove features discourage the installation of updates.

Re:The real (and very bad) message: no updates

[Obfuscant]

Please show me this amazing code you have written

I have this printer that does everything it was advertised to do correctly and prints just like it is supposed to. I have never seen it fail to produce a document that doesn't match the electronic version it was sent, except for hardware related issues (out of toner, e.g.)

Why the hell would I want to "update" it when "update" means "change" and "change" means it may do something different than it used to? It is doing what I want; change is not necessary.

I have yet to have any of my HP printers update anything. Maybe that's because I'm smart enough to not put the gateway address into the networked ones so they couldn't talk to a remote update server even if they tried.

Re:The real (and very bad) message: no updates

[Anonymous Coward]

Think spacial: do you think they can apply a patch on a 5 billion satellite launcher in the air?

Yes, actually, they can. Many of NASA's probes and rovers have had updates applied remotely.

Re:The real (and very bad) message: no updates

[Anonymous Coward]

This promotes the notion that you should never install updates. That's a really bad lesson.

You are incorrect. It's actually a really shrewd administrative strategy. Perhaps it should be more of a "never install an update," until you have a security issue you need patched, a software bug you need fixed, or a new feature you wish to exploit. The lesson should be never mindlessly install anything.

Once upon a time, one could reasonably safely and mindlessly install any available updates, and be assured it was a good thing. Today, this practice still occurs, but anyone mindlessly installing updates is a fool. If there is not a bug you need fixed, if there is not a security issue that you need patched, if there is not a new feature you are seeking, why install an update? Instead, don't. The sky will not fall.

Re:The real (and very bad) message: no updates

[Calydor]

No, he said that the ability to upgrade lets manufacturers slack on code testing. Please look at which post I replied to.

Re:The real (and very bad) message: no updates

[AK Marc]

10 Print "Helo World"
20 goto 10

Perfect, and never needs updates.

Re:The real (and very bad) message: no updates

[Calydor]

I am sitting here wondering if 'Helo' was deliberate or not. Well done.

Re:The real (and very bad) message: no updates

[Obfuscant]

He's advertising his rotary wing aircraft store.

Re:The real (and very bad) message: no updates

[AK Marc]

The answer is the same either way. The purpose of it, as software goes, is to test I/O, not produce "Hel[l]o World". So even if errored, it does fulfil its purpose. So no update is needed, even if "wrong". That's one of the points of software updates. Change to add "polish" often drives introduction of functional bugs.

Re:The real (and very bad) message: no updates

[cwsumner]

Wow.

Please show me this amazing code you have written that has zero bugs ever and runs flawlessly in scenarios you had no way of imagining when you wrote it.

If it works for what you need, then by definition it has no serious bugs.
Risking useful operation by installing updates is not usually a good idea.
Updating everything, all of the time, is something pushed by the corporate "control freaks".

Re:The real (and very bad) message: no updates

[Patabugen]

Last week, after her HP Printer rejected her cartridges, I had a client text me, furious and asking me to disable all Windows updates because she can't live with her computer changing all the time and just wants to get some work done.

Security updates are important - I'm questioning disabling everything else by default.

Re:The real (and very bad) message: no updates

[whoever57]

Security updates are important - I'm questioning disabling everything else by default.

Good luck with that.

HP employee here

[BenJeremy]

Well, HPE, and not for much longer (going out on my terms)... anyway - we used to get ink for free, before the split last November, but honestly, I stopped using my HP printer about a year before that. The scanner functionality didn't work right over the network and after getting a Dell (the horror) color laser, there was no reason to print on an inkjet anyway. Now I have an All-in-one that prints great color and scans, all over the network - even does AirPrint and an app to print over Android devices, too.

Regardless of my feeling toward Meg Whitman and destruction of HP, I'd still recommend never buying HP Inkjets - same as I recommend not buying Epson (had those for years, then they put in a self-destruct after 3000 prints that just printed garbage on your media, dumb and expensive to the user).

The tactics of these companies are reprehensible, and should not be supported by anybody. It's not like HP cares about its customers any more, anyway. It's all about stock prices so they can sell it all off to hedge funds (and devalue the middle class' pension funds to line their own pockets) just before it finally collapses.

Re:HP employee here

[NatasRevol]

Ditto from another HPE employee.

HPI makes printers, ink & consumer electronics (desktops, laptops, etc)

HPE makes enterprise hardware. (servers, networking gear, SANs, etc)

Re:HP employee here

[whoever57]

I have an HP Multifunction that works great and is cheap. On the other hand, it is only used for scanning, so HP has made a loss on the sale.

Re:HP employee here

[LVSlushdat]

Regardless of my feeling toward Meg Whitman and destruction of HP...

Unless you switched in mid-stream to talking about eBay, I do believe it was Carly Fiorina that fucked HP into the ground...Both of those ladies did a bang-up job on their respective corporations...

Re:HP employee here

[Grishnakh]

Not quite: Ebay these days is actually still pretty useful, depending on what you're shopping for. I'm using it more than Amazon now, as the prices are frequently better. I've gotten lots of great stuff on there in the past year even: used cellphones, used laptops, new-old-stock items, etc. So Meg didn't quite manage to drive it into the ground.

Carly and HP, however, is another story....

Re:HP employee here

[Anonymous Coward]

When I worked for HP, we were forced to use centralized laser printers, often a long way from our work areas. I worked in a confidential area. We snuck "forbidden" laser printer models in our lab so we could have a printer near. HP wouldn't buy toner for the printers so I purchased knock off laser toner carts with my own money to do HP work. They worked flawlessly (bought on Amazon) at about 1/4 the cost.

It all seemed rather ridiculous but I did what was required to do my job efficiently.

Re:HP employee here

[Steve Hamlin]

While your point about Carly is taken, I think the parent poster is referring to the fact that Meg Whitman became CEO of Hewlett-Packard in 2011, and caused that entity to split up into HPE and HPI in 2015.

Fraud

[Anonymous Coward]

HP is falsely claiming that these cartridges are "damaged" when they aren't.

This is basically the same as an automobile mechanic telling you that your hovercontrol needs to be replaced or you need new brakes when you don't.

Re:Fraud

[Anonymous Coward]

My HP hovercraft is suddenly giving me error messages- "One or more eels appear to be damaged. Remove them and replace them with new genuine HP eels." I just filled it yesterday!

Back when there were no kids on my lawn...

[Anonymous Coward]

I remember the olden days when HP made good printers. Expensive, but good. They'd last 10+ years with virtually no trouble. Their network connectivity was flawless and reliable. Their mechanical design was indestructible. The print quality was top notch.

And then they started building "consumer" inkjet printers. And then they started marketing those low-grade printers to small offices. And then they jacked up the prices of ink. And now they're pulling this DMCA bullcrap. This is what "hell in a handbasket" looks like, and this is how legitimate businesses go to it.

What once was done by being a competitive provider of goods and services has now been replaced with marketing and lobbying. Corporations, take heed: hell hath no fury like a woman scorned, but even that doesn't hold a candle to nerd rage. Do. Not. Piss. Off. The. Nerds. Or. They. Will. Put. You. Out. Of. Business. And. Use. Way. Too. Many. Single. Word. Sentence. Fragments.

Re:Back when there were no kids on my lawn...

[Anonymous Coward]

10+ Try 20+! My father still insists on using his old LaserJet 4P, which he got second-hand in the late 90''s. According to wikipedia, that model was introduced in 1993. (It looks just like the one in the picture.) Believe it or not, not only can you still get toner cartridges for it, the toner cost per page is still competitive with modern B&W laser printers. It's quite slow by today's standards, but then, my father doesn't move very quickly these days either, so he doesn't mind.

Re:Back when there were no kids on my lawn...

[Trax3001BBS]

10+ Try 20+! My father still insists on using his old LaserJet 4P.

Laughs Out Loud, I have a LaserJet 5P I still use.

Re:Back when there were no kids on my lawn...

[Anonymous Coward]

I miss my Okidata dot matrix ribbon printer... Except for the paper jams.

A Note to Hewlett-Packard

[sehlat]

Once your product has been purchased, it is no longer your property!

New slogan for HP

[sehlat]

Third-party ink is killing printers!

Re:New slogan for HP

[Anonymous Coward]

Just say no to third party ink, won't somebody think of the children?!

Re:New slogan for HP

[Scarletdown]

The OEMs can counter cheap third party ink by making their OEM cartridges priced competitively with their competitors.

Re:New slogan for HP

[Place a name here]

"I say to you that third party ink is to the American corporation and the American public as the Boston strangler is to the woman home alone."

"You wouldn't steal a car
You wouldn't steal a television
You wouldn't steal a printer
You wouldn't steal ink

Using unlicensed third party supplies is stealing.
Stealing is against the law.
PREVENTING PROFIT. IT'S A CRIME."

Re:New slogan for HP

[sehlat]

Preventing profit. It's a crime.

So is improving on my idea. :D

Re:New slogan for HP

[sehlat]

Won't somebody think of the stockholders?!?!

Re:New slogan for HP

[Scarletdown]

The stockholders should love such a scenario. Customers having access to HP branded ink cartridges at prices that won't break the bank, means more sales for OEM ink cartridges than HP would have otherwise received keeping prices artificially and prohibitively high. Mere sales quantity and the subsequent bottom line would likely be much higher than they would be with the current business model.

Plus, if HP makes it affordable to use their products, then customers may consider buying an HP printer again in the future once their current printer is no longer good enough for them. Treat your customers as adversaries instead of customers, and you will lose the privilege of having customers when hardware replacement/upgrade time comes around, and those become customers of Canon, or Epson, or whoever else can meet the need.

Threw my HP OfficeJet in the garbage last week ...

[stongef]

I got fed up with HP's crappy business practices, an bought a new Epson Ecotank 2550 printer instead. No more cartridges to buy, just ink bottles ... and those last forever, it seems. The printer was more expensive yes, but now the family is back to printing without worrying about the cost of ink. Ah, and also, no more "dried up ink cartridges because it's been a while we printed" problem.

there will be a lawsuit soon..

[Anonymous Coward]

and hp will lose. but between now and then they'll make money off the clueless.

Screw HP

[AndyKron]

Don't buy HP printers, and let them fail

The EFF? WTF?

[jenningsthecat]

This strikes me as a contravention of anti-fraud and/or anti-trust laws, and should be the subject of criminal charges filed by various States and Federal attorneys. Sure, it's about Electronic Freedoms, and I'm glad the EFF is weighing in - but dammit, they shouldn't have to do so. Legal authorities should be doing their jobs.

Re:The EFF? WTF?

[Trax3001BBS]

This strikes me as a contravention of anti-fraud and/or anti-trust laws, and should be the subject of criminal charges filed by various States and Federal attorneys. Sure, it's about Electronic Freedoms, and I'm glad the EFF is weighing in - but dammit, they shouldn't have to do so. Legal authorities should be doing their jobs.

HP has been doing this for so long that EFF weighing in now is questionable.

Anyone else have a 3rd party ink ad at the bottom?

[Anonymous Coward]

Mine is for inkfarm.com. I appreciate the irony of the keyword ad placement.

Library, Kinkos, local print shop, Office store ..

[Anonymous Coward]

Library, Kinkos, local print shop, Office store, UPS ... I bet there are literally dozens of options at least a few of which you and your mom can access without buying a printer.

Scan your signature

[mi]

They called again and said that they could not accept e-signatures

This is why I keep a transparent-background PNG file with my signature around. Easily inserted into a LyX document and no one on the other end of the fax call can tell the difference.

Re: Scan your signature

[Anonymous Coward]

Actually, they can, they just don't care since it ticks the right boxes.

Re:Scan your signature

[ShanghaiBill]

This is why I keep a transparent-background PNG file with my signature around. Easily inserted into a LyX document and no one on the other end of the fax call can tell the difference.

That is what I meant by "e-sign". They rejected it. They could tell because there were several pages requiring signatures, and they were all exactly the same. They can also tell by the size/speed of the transfer. If only the sig is a scanned image the transfer will be much smaller than if the whole page is rasterized.

As much as hospitals charge, do you seriously believe that they aren't staffed up enough to detect fax cheaters?

Re:Scan your signature

[Anonymous Coward]

I do the same.
Extra helpful if it's in blue! (fools 'em into thinking it's even mo realz).

Re:Scan your signature

[Anonymous Coward]

Literally have multiple sigs for this purpose :D
It's a real life saver if away from the scanner-

PS: and in this case it's hardly 'cheating' (what an accusational tone you've chosen), it's due to being away from or having no access to a scanner. Is your neighbor Kinko's, or the library? Often it's not unwilling, it's unable. So yeah, multiple sigs. Legal as hell.

Re:Scan your signature

[Anonymous Coward]

This is why I keep a transparent-background PNG file with my signature around.

That is what I meant by "e-sign". They rejected it. They could tell because there were several pages requiring signatures, and they were all exactly the same.

That is why I run a CAPTCHA generator on my original transparent-background PNG signature each time it is required.

Re:Scan your signature

[LinuxIsGarbage]

That is what I meant by "e-sign". They rejected it. They could tell because there were several pages requiring signatures, and they were all exactly the same. They can also tell by the size/speed of the transfer. If only the sig is a scanned image the transfer will be much smaller than if the whole page is rasterized.

As much as hospitals charge, do you seriously believe that they aren't staffed up enough to detect fax cheaters?

Could they also tell by the crispness of the fax? I remember being amazed 20 years ago at how aligned and clear things I "printed" with my "fax modem" were. Any time you fax something physical it's every so slightly crooked and jaggy.

10 years ago I remember when the "scanner" on the Multifunction machine at the office actually faxed it, complete with header, and it would end up on the network. I gave up and scanned things with my digital camera.

At my current job, for the past 6 years, I think I've only HAD to send 3 faxes. I usually insult the recipient each time. This works best when they are your customer.

Re:Scan your signature

[Anonymous Coward]

What a load of crap. If the signature is not the same, then they should reject it.

You could get some random guy off the street to forge your signature and they would accept it.

Re:Scan your signature

[mi]

They could tell because there were several pages requiring signatures, and they were all exactly the same.

Remotely plausible... But only if the recipient is already suspicious. Which they probably were after you discussed the printing vs. e-signing with them.

They can also tell by the size/speed of the transfer.

Nonsense. You made this up.

As much as hospitals charge, do you seriously believe that they aren't staffed up enough to detect fax cheaters?

Let me tell you a story, that happened to me. I had a dedicated fax-line, its number differing from that of some medical office in another state only by the area code. Guess what? Incorrectly dialed faxes — from hospitals and other medical offices — would end up in my computer (been using Hylafax for 20 years now) a couple of times per week. PHI be damned — I got medical histories and exam results of total strangers.

Now, this was before HIPAA, but medical information was already a big deal — and yet, these much-charging organizations could not be bothered to properly verify fax-numbers... Dedicating resources/training to catch — not cheaters — people not wishing to waste paper is not going to happen...

High-Maintenance but can't give me a blowjob... no

[Pezbian]

If it floats, flies, fucks, or prints, it's cheaper to rent it.

I find I print more often after switching away from inkjet to laser. The problem with inkjet was I'd print so seldom that the cartridges would get clogged and that just made me want to use it even less. Why fiddle around for an hour trying to get a good photo print when the Walmart down the street is faster and doesn't go through $5 in ink each time? I had a geriatric (Centronics-50 SCSI; that's how old) Kodak dye sub printer that was less trouble.

I picked up a used business-class HP B/W laser all-in-one for $25 and the damn thing goes like a champ.
For color, I have a Brother laser. I'll sacrifice print quality for reliability any day.

Too Late.

[Anonymous Coward]

Regardless of how HP treats the situation, I will not buy from them again.

My trust has been lost, and when lost, its unlikely to be regained.

HP has really come a long way...

[ffkom]

... from a once great high-tech manufacturer whose products were expensive, but worth it, to an embarrasing ink seller with the behaviour of a shady used-cars dealer. Those days when I was happily using HP calculators and an HP workstation and a DeskJet 500 printer that could print thousands of pages on refills from a 1l bottle of Pelikan ink... now they seem as far behind as Egypt building the pyramids. Buying HP? I'd rather burn my money to make ink from the ashes myself.

Re:HP has really come a long way...

[avandesande]

Used to work in a chemistry lab in the 90s.. the analytical machines (GC, GC Mass spec, HPLC) where all top of the line and cutting edge.

old laser jet 4s?

[Joe_Dragon]

old laser jet 4s?

Build like tanks and they can take network cards and more. Also will just say something like NON HP cartage on boot up but that does not stop them from working.

Re:old laser jet 4s?

[macs4all]

old laser jet 4s?

Build like tanks and they can take network cards and more. Also will just say something like NON HP cartage on boot up but that does not stop them from working.

LJ 4s don't have any DRM on the carts. that I know of.

I'll second that!

I bought an LJ 4M (with the Postscript Module) and a Jet Direct card, used, at a Salvation Army for $8. It had 8,000 copies on it (!!!!!)

It will work for me until the heat-death of the universe.

It's REALLY slow rendering Postscript; but if you send it PCL, it's pretty fast (about 8 ppm?).

I would, however, look for an LJ 4+; because it has a "sleep" mode that is reduced power, and doesn't keep the fuser hot all the time, like the non-"plussed" LJ 4.

But for $8, with 8k copies, who am I to complain?

And even if you can't find one with a Jet Direct card, you can get those offa eBay for a small number of dollars all day long.

Re:old laser jet 4s?

[Anonymous Coward]

I use old LJ5's myself.
The bigger LJ4 is the same i think. The small one is hard to find toner cartridge now :(
Truely are built like a tank, one came in 23 peices from UPS and after a couple pieces of tape on the sensors still ran.
The cartridge on my old LJ4 is getting hard to find.

They don't care much about which cartridge is loaded nor waiting months between print jobs.

I do have a small inkjet for good color but needs ink each time. For other color jobs I have an ancient HP 4500 color laser that prints color for the price of B&W now :))

Haven't dealt with much of the printer crap going on again in over a decade...and hopefully another to come as i have a spare for each.

PS: the 10 year-old driver for the 4500 is better than the new ones they push on you now for WIN7. For some reason the current driver refuses multiple copies :/

Re:old laser jet 4s?

[drinkypoo]

You don't have to go that far into the past. You can get a HPLJ2300. $3 or so on eBay gets you a stick-on PCB which will bypass the toner DRM. Just transfer it to your next toner cart with some nice thin double-sided foam tape. It's a drastically better printer than a HPLJ4.

However, neither of these printers will print color, which is probably a requirement for his mom. She should just go to Kinko's.

Re:old laser jet 4s?

[Darinbob]

Yup, probably a good idea if you don't want color. I remember at the time of their popularity that people didn't like dealing with the powder cartridges, but probably simpler overall then the inkjet cartridges.

Modern day Peasents

[Stan92057]

Welcome to the decade where business tell YOU what you can and cant do with hardware you pay for. Dont expect Congress to help either, they are all millionaires who have stock in all these companies and those companies line their political campaign pockets as well. They are royalty we are their modern day peasants/slaves..because very few have the balls to say no.

New business strategy

[Anonymous Coward]

Let's try this out: We come up with a software update that makes our existing customers hate us, motivates them to move to competitors, and give us such a horrible reputation that new customers will avoid us! How can it fail?

Re:High-Maintenance but can't give me a blowjob...

[Anonymous Coward]

... it floats, flies, fucks ...

I agree. Unfortunately, the world depends on a purchase-driven market for the last one. Good news; men have been refusing the licensing terms and renting is becoming legal again.

Epson headed the other way?

[Anonymous Coward]

Interestingly the new Epson Eco-Tank will do several thousand pages (they say averaging 2 years) and can be refilled without a cartridge.
But the cheapest all-in-one version on Amazon is like $275. So do you save in the end. Probably not if your don't print that much.

Re:Epson headed the other way?

[jaklode]

Also it's an Epson, so if you don't print every second day, your print head stops working.

Even better...

[Applehu Akbar]

I call on my IT service customers to stop using inkjet printers entirely. Even if you insist on color, there is a Canon color laser for about $250. For the rest of us, there are a number of good $100 monochrome lasers. You can send the occasional color photo to Snapfish, with two-day turnaround.

Re:Even better...

[Anonymous Coward]

Or go to Walmart (and other) brick-and-mortar print shop for instant color photo prints.

The TPP

[Anonymous Coward]

... planted a countdown timer in their property ...

This is illegal in most countries so I'm wondering if the TPP will fix that. Does it become a question of who will benefit the most, the OEM or the imitation manufacturer? Since by definition, the OEM will have a higher mark-up than the imitator, the OEM will have more money to spend in the court-room.

Such a hidden agenda for HP

[Anonymous Coward]

This was not something users of these printers knew when they upgraded the firmware. I doubt anyone knew their was a built in date to shut down any use of non HP cartridges. This would be similar to a auto maker requiring you buy all OEM parts for your car and not go to a Auto Zone for them. It's absolutely a deliberate attempt of HP to force these printer owners to buy HP replacement cartridges.

Magnuson-Moss Act

[Anonymous Coward]

Pretty much why the law was created was for this kind of scenario. I'm surprised it's not been enforced. OK, I'm not surprised. Money was surely involved...

yeah

[JustNiz]

I've used HP printers exclusively for decades, mostly because they "just work" with Linux.
I recently had to get rid of my still perfectly working HP all-in-one (PSC950) because it wouldn't work with Windows 10 and HP aren't concerned enough to support it anymore.
I switched my brand loyalty to Epson entirely because of these stupid ink cartridge games HP keep playing, and because Epson have individual cartridges for each ink colour, whereas none of the HPs I was looking at did. I calculate that In about 6 months of ownership, just my ink bill savings from going Epson this time round have more than paid for the new printer. It was only $89 but its actually a great networked printer/scanner.

Illegal in Canada

[davecb]

We just expanded the law to deal with variation on the scheme: an academic paper on it is at http://digitalcommons.osgoode....

How many times do we have to say this?

[freeze128]

Listen up and take heed: It's not that you should "Stop buying HP Printers". It's that you should "Stop buying *INKJET* Printers". HP makes plenty of laser printers that last longer and are a WAY better investment than buying an inkjet printer.

OK, so I guess I'll be the one to say it:

I RECOMMEND that you buy an HP LASERJET PRINTER!

Re:How many times do we have to say this?

[Anonymous Coward]

I RECOMMEND that you don't buy from a company that FUCKS YOU OVER like this!

Re:How many times do we have to say this?

[Anonymous Coward]

I did the math. My HP Officejet Pro 8600 plus inkjet all-in-one has a same-or-cheaper cost-per-page than the color laser all-in-one options. At least if you go by the advertised page counts on inkjet and toner refills.

What specific laser do you recommend?

Re:How many times do we have to say this?

[thegarbz]

And then what? The world market shifts to toner. Toner prices from manufacturers increase, and companies come in to fill the niche by refilling those cartridges. Printer companies go on the war path and we're back to square one.

This isn't about not buying HP, or not buying a particular brand. This is about corporation vs people. This is about lock-in. This is about being sick of bending over and grabbing my ankles every time some company wants to make another dime.

Criminal damage and extortion charges

[Bruce66423]

My machine was working, Now it's not. Therefore you have deliberately damaged it. And you are extorting money from me.

If each owner of an affected printer files a local criminal charge against the company, it will be forced to employ lawyers for each court appearance, they will soon be very very poor.

I call on HP to dieeeeeee!

[Anonymous Coward]

Since Meg Whitman fucked Carly Fiorina, YOU ARE DEAD TO ME

don't buy printers

[unixisc]

I quite agree w/ this. I used to have a printer, but found myself using it once in a blue moon. Actually, I had a combo device, and I used it to copy and scan documents to save in case of emergencies.

I think that it makes more sense to go to FedEx or UPS and print/scan/copy whatever one needs. All the paper activity one does won't sum up to the cost of a printer. And if the day comes when one can show a cellphone snapped copy of a document, such as a driver's license, to the government, that would eliminate the need from printers altogether

Only printer I have - a Brother label printer

Gasoline And Ink

[Anonymous Coward]

Can you imagine if car manufacturers forced you only to buy their gas?
Then why should HP force you to "fill up" with only their ink?
Fuck HP.

Re: The KORAN

[Anonymous Coward]

Meh, you would probali miss, given your phisical deformaties, the result of in family breeding.

Re: Epson EcoTank, you buy ink bottles.

[Anonymous Coward]

Epson has come up with EcoTank series inkjets. You buy ink bottles and pour those to printer.

http://www.epson.com/cgi-bin/Store/jsp/Landing/ecotank-super-tank-printers.do?ref=van:us-ecotank

HP destroys trust

[Anonymous Coward]

HP does this because it sells printers below cost and makes up the difference on ink.
Whether or not that is a good strategy, they should not take such sneaky actions with their customers.

I will not buy printers from a company that does this to their customers. It destroys trust.

Simpler

[Anonymous Coward]

Just don't print.

Just don't buy inkjet printers

[Anonymous Coward]

I haven't messed with an inkjet printer since the early 2000s, and I am happy for it. Compatibility with Postscript, PCL 5, or some other standard printer language is a possibility with Laserjet. Toner has a reasonable cost per page, and less mechanical problems. I have a 10 year old $150 HP Laserjet, which I can move around. I bet a used laser printer can be had for under $100. And, for getting just a few pages printed out, there is Kinkos.

So, I just say no to inkjet

Re:When is epson's turn?

[Joce640k]

Just buy lasers, people.

It really is as simple as that. Why anybody would suffer an inkjet in their house is beyond comprehension.

For photos use any one of the millions of photo printing services out there. You'll get better results, better paper, etc. Does anybody even print photos since we have smartphones?

If you work in graphic design and spend all day long printing photos then fair enough. Get an inkjet. The rest of the world should avoid them like the plague.

Sue them

[Anonymous Coward]

The agreement between me to buy the printer and HP to sell was never conditional upon me using only their ink cartridges. This action is therefore denying me the right to use as I see fit property that is legally mine. If people in enough jurisdictions fight back (class action in the USA and Class Proceedings Act in Ontario) they (HP) will be looking at some hefty fines and compensation.

HP who?

[Anonymous Coward]

I bought an HP multifunction printer about 13 years ago. When it runs out of ink it will not allow me to scan a document. Let me say that again: When it has no ink remaining, I cannot use a function of the device that does not require ink!

HP has irrevocably damaged our relationship; the trust is gone. I haven't bought an HP product since and have no plans to ever do so again. Presently I have a very nice Brother all-in-one that does not hold it's other functions to ransom when the ink runs dry.

HP could close up shop tomorrow and I wouldn't even notice. I would not accept an HP printer if it was given to me for free.

Re:Threw my HP OfficeJet in the garbage last week

[Anonymous Coward]

exact same situation, and result... inability to print essential documents on HP Deskjet after one software update.. caused rage

Got a sandwich and spent some very creative "Hp printer desctruction" videos (recommended if in similar situation)

Then spent $300 on the ET-2550.

Have since printed thousands of colour and bw pages from home without much problem for an ink price of less than 2c per page (including paper).

Message to HP: please stop holding your loyal customers to ransom, become a bit more understanding, and we may still buy some of your future products...

  the Ransom Business model needs to change very soon if HP is going to survive

Special Advisor

[Anonymous Coward]

Can we just take a minute to appreciate that this letter to the CEO of HP was penned by Cory Doctorow? Co editor of Boing Boing, writer of Down and Out in the Magic Kingdom, Little Brother, and Makers. That's pretty neat.

The 1990's called....

[theinfamousgeek]

They want their printers back.

Fines and punishment needs to be severe.

[martinfb]

If we are allowed to use any gas in our cars, shouldn't we be able to use any ink in OUR printers? Once purchased, that printer fully belongs to the purchaser.

Companies, or any entity, that engages in practices (such as this HP scam) needs to be quite severely punished; to the point that it is woefully disadvantageous to even consider this practice.
Otherwise, companies will continue to abuse customers.

Why inkjets anyway?

[therealbev]

Only crazy people PRINT photos. My cheap (under $100) Brother laser printer (newer versions are cheaper and better) has been working since 2009 and cartridges (I've bought 2 for under $30 each and I don't need to install the second one quite yet, although the yellow light blinks occasionally) are cheap. Taxes, program listings, the occasional letter, etc. I'm really pissed at HP for doing stuff like this.

Re:When is epson's turn?

[K10W]

Just buy lasers, people.

It really is as simple as that. Why anybody would suffer an inkjet in their house is beyond comprehension.

For photos use any one of the millions of photo printing services out there. You'll get better results, better paper, etc. Does anybody even print photos since we have smartphones?

If you work in graphic design and spend all day long printing photos then fair enough. Get an inkjet. The rest of the world should avoid them like the plague.

you don't get better results and paper from any I've seen apart from the VERY expensive gallery mount services who use the same papers I tend to use. For documents and standard disposable printouts inhouse is needed and it is convenient (I use canon ip4700's mainly with aftermarket ink). For my photos I use precisioncolor aftermarket ink in a canon pro-10 and print on ilford gold FB silk. No way I can get photos printed on paper like that with a gamut like that with no fade issue for a similar price esp 13"x19" size which cost me around £3 a print at home but few hundred £ from places that do similar/same paper giclee prints. Most pro printshops print photos on cheap paper like fuji crystal archive, insta-dry microporous style papers are not better apart from fast turnarounds, most places tend to use high OBA papers to give impression of high dmax BUT that wont last with time. A decent alphacellulose or cotton rag paper done right will keep the colours, all of mine look as good as when I printed them (after they dried) despite being mounted for years.

The issues I've had with hp printers

[Anonymous Coward]

has caused me to abandon them entirely.

If 3d printing is going to not such as bad as 2d printing, they better figure out a way to make sure it's all about the printers and not the consumables.

Consumables is how companies make the big bucks though. I don't see any solution, just more of everything sucking even more.