Slashdot Mirror
The City Of Munich Now Wants To Abandon Linux And Switch Back to Windows (techrepublic.com)
"The prestigious FOSS project replacing the entire city's administration IT with FOSS based systems, is about to be cancelled and decommissioned," writes long-time Slashdot reader Qbertino. TechRepublic reports:
Politicians at open-source champion Munich will next week vote on whether to abandon Linux and return to Windows by 2021. The city authority, which made headlines for ditching Windows, will discuss proposals to replace the Linux-based OS used across the council with a Windows 10-based client. If the city leaders back the proposition it would be a notable U-turn by the council, which spent years migrating about 15,000 staff from Windows to LiMux, a custom version of the Ubuntu desktop OS, and only completed the move in 2013...
The use of the open-source Thunderbird email client and LibreOffice suite across the council would also be phased out, in favor of using "market standard products" that offer the "highest possible compatibility" with external and internal software... The full council will vote on whether to back the plan next Wednesday. If all SPD and CSU councillors back the proposal put forward by their party officials, then this new proposal will pass, because the two parties hold the majority.
The leader of the Munich Green Party says the city will lose "many millions of euros" if the change is implemented. The article also reports that Microsoft moved its German headquarters to Munich last year.
The use of the open-source Thunderbird email client and LibreOffice suite across the council would also be phased out, in favor of using "market standard products" that offer the "highest possible compatibility" with external and internal software... The full council will vote on whether to back the plan next Wednesday. If all SPD and CSU councillors back the proposal put forward by their party officials, then this new proposal will pass, because the two parties hold the majority.
The leader of the Munich Green Party says the city will lose "many millions of euros" if the change is implemented. The article also reports that Microsoft moved its German headquarters to Munich last year.
libreoffice is just as good!!!*
*as MS Office 2000
I've seen this: some high-powered MS rep chats up a boss, and *presto*:
MS is great
We've got to migrate
Put that to whatever jingle you want. Also: inspect bank accounts and campaign funds.
Note also that the study supporting the move back to WIndows was carried out by Accenture (some of us know them better by their old name, Andersen Consulting). Accenture was Microsoft's Alliance Partner of the Year in 2016, so I'm sure that they have a neutral, objective reason for recommending Microsoft software.
Enjoy life! This is not a dress rehearsal.
Everyone is going to point at MS Office, but that's no the problem. There are man many "proprietary" applications that have become standards across certain industries and organizations such as municipalities where Wine simply isn't an option.
But speaking of Office, and I'm sure the subject will start great arguments, but there are some who like Outlook, and many that rely on some of its features that, sorry, Thunderbird et al just don't replicate well or at all.
If you want news from today, you have to come back tomorrow.
Microsoft will helpfully "analyze" all of the software and data files on your system and send the info back to Redmond. Windows should not be allowed anywhere.
linux is not for the general public, it is for the computer literate.
I would love an Ask Me Anything from some of the sys admins. I'd be curious how the switch went, the troubles or lack of them they had during and after the switch and why there is pressure to switch back to Windows.
--I bet somebody's getting "compensated" in some way to bring this forward. Not only would they be giving up flexibility for a corporation-centric solution, but they would be giving up privacy as well. This site alone is full of Win10 articles detailing what a POS bit of spyware it is, masquerading as an OS. Not to mention random reboots due to upgrades.
--I can only hope this doesn't get approved, but in this world currently nothing is apparently safe or predictable.
.
== WolfriderV6 == I'm willing to admit that *I just might* be wrong... Are you??
If the leader of the Munich Green Party is right and the city will lose "many millions of euros" if the change is implemented, it's too bad they don't use all that money for hiring an army of programmers. They could implement the changes they want in the FOSS themselves, and give something back to the community for the billions they will save over the next 100 years.
Linux is mainly for servers and embedded systems. On the desktop it's for people that enjoy tinkering with computers rather than getting work done.
A lot of "enterprises" including my employer went to office365 and it doesn't matter what the client OS is. I use Linux at home and Mac at work to do employer's things, it just doesn't matter
That this discusssion will get Godwin'd very quickly
I guess if Microsoft started agitating for Windows in beer halls.
It's 2017. Things have changed a bit in the last 19 years
The desire to switch to an office suite with the "highest possible compatibility" clearly indicates they've had trouble opening MS Office documents, and that people with MS Office have had trouble opening ODF documents.
To maintain their position in the market Microsoft make a deliberate attempt to make other software incompatible with their formats, and make their software incompatible with other formats. For example, they claim 100% technical comparability with the ODF formats, but if you open an ODS spreadsheet in Excel it strips out all the formulas, thus rendering the spreadsheet worthless.
This seems like intentional abuse of their market position to me.
the year of Linux on the desktop.
It would be nice to have another choice other than Microsoft or Apple, but until the various Linux communities figure out how to make their software work as easily as either of the big boys, which means running real programs such as Photoshop/DxO Optics Pro/Capture One for those in the photo field, or the numerous games out there for most other people, it's just not going to make decent penetration on the desktop even if it is free.
Granted, Microsoft conspiring with Intel to lock their chips down doesn't help, but that's not the fault of the Linux community.
For general web surfing and such, Linux is there. For everything else, it has a long way to go.
I mean, that's just an assumption about what Linux users do with their systems. Microsoft has great data on what their users use their systems for- timestamps of executable programs, all data typed by keyboard, which ads are most likely to lead to sales, etc. Until someone starts tracking everything done by Linux users in the same manner Microsoft tracks all Windows users, I'm afraid your assertion is likely to remain unproven...
It does matter. We're stuck with Vista because several of the Microsoft apps we have to run won't run on any newer version of Windows. From:
https://products.office.com/en-US/office-system-requirements
"Office 365 is designed to work with Internet Explorer 11." But, the highest version of MSIE that is allowed to be run on Vista is MSIE 9. And with Chrome already dropping upgrades and Firefox scheduled to drop them in September, Office 365 is quickly becoming unusable on many of the versions of Windows that Microsoft requires us to use to use some of their products.
I'm sure the founders of the LiMux project thought that by 2017 the YotLD had long since come and gone, that mainstream drivers and software would be there almost by default at near zero cost. The latest stats from StatCounter says that worldwide Linux has 1.55% desktop OS market share. Even if I pick Germany which is a very pro-Linux market it's 3.46%. From a local politician's view I can understand that it looks like an endless uphill battle, regardless of the actual merits of the OS there will be far more solutions for Windows. It's just a fact of running an obscure solution.
Live today, because you never know what tomorrow brings
Anal ventriloquism; impressive. I've switched over hundreds of my clients [who are casual users] from Winblows to Mint over the past six years or so and the less technically adept they are, the more likely they are to benefit.
Never heard of a place that standardized on Vista of all things, that's kind of weird. Your employer better get themselves some 7 or 10
If web based services are what most office staff and bureaucrats use all day long, then you only need a browser. And Linux runs a browser just as well as Windows. And ChromeOS, if you can call it Linux, runs a browser way better than a desktop. (but that's about all it does)
Office software on a desktop is still a little better than the web based options. There isn't a huge difference in terms of capabilities and usability between Office 16 and LibreOffice, but the compatibility between the two is quite poor so it's best to pick just one. Throwing data into a spreadsheet, making some graphs, and slides is pretty much a solved problem on Windows and Linux. Web based stuff is a few steps behind, I anticipate in 3-4 years that it will be to a point that my company can switch (10000+ employees)
When you get into content creation that you have to think carefully about what OS to us. Desktop publishing, graphic design, etc.
“Common sense is not so common.” — Voltaire
Obviously, the go-to assumption is that there was a deal made on a golf course somewhere. It's entirely possible - probable, even...but let's take a moment to suspend the "crucify Microsoft" direction and consider a possible alternative...
Libreoffice is a solid product. I do not mind it one bit; in some cases I even prefer it to MS Office. Munich probably did save a bundle in licensing costs for Office. However, that's not the whole story. Integration with Office can frequently be a mission-critical requirement. There's a whole lot of reporting software, calculation software, CRM software, and document management software that integrates with Office. These vendors do not typically include integrations for LibreOffice, which means there are two options:
1. use products that work with LibreOffice.
2. roll your own.
Option 1 is a bit of a quagmire because it's not like they were moving to a computerized system from filing cabinets and typewriters, so it's not like they could just start with "linux/LO compatibility required" as a bidding condition. If they did, it probably would have been better for OSS as a whole, but alas, there is data residing in incumbent systems which need to be considered. Thus, we land at option #2.
How many programmers would be required to make a LibreOffice/LogicalDoc rollout roughly comparable to MSO/Sharepoint, move all the data over, access the same set of databases and workflows, etc., and do it in a timeframe that doesn't bring the city to a halt? Well, that needs to be compared to the cost of just using MSO, and do so favorably...but let's say that it did, and we ignore the user training side of things. What about the server side of things? Were they still using Windows Server and Active Directory, or migrate all that over to LDAP? Same with Exchange and Dovecot? MS SQL and Postgres? It's a bundle of money, but moving everything over, everywhere, ever, is almost as challenging as getting Linux desktops to work flawlessly with a Microsoft backend.
Now, let's head back to the golf course. Who called the meeting? If it was Microsoft, that's a good thing. Do you really think that Microsoft will be able to convince the city to migrate back without giving them one hell of a good price on it? If MS wants the contract back, you know they're taking pennies on the dollar for it.
If the takeaway of this exercise is that Microsoft is giving the city of Munich a software contract at 70% off for the next decade and that the OSS community ends up with a to-do list of functions that were considered shortcomings, then it sounds like some good ultimately came out of it. If it really was an offer they couldn't refuse, then by all means, crucify them.
If you're in IT, linux is whatever you make it. If you have end-user desktop needs, you manipulate it in a way that's friendly to the end-user on the surface.
If you can't do that, then you have no business in IT in that particular organization.
Microsoft spends lots of money to make all sorts of peripherals ... work.
No Microsoft don't. It is the peripheral makers who spend the money and effort to make their stuff work in Windows; they do not always bother to do that for Linux. All Microsoft need to do is sit on their arse and let it happen.
It's Windows that wastes time with upgrades and balloons that get in the way when someone is trying to get work done, not to mention forced unwanted reboots that lose work and the "installing updates" during shutdown or powerup that can go on for over an hour when user is in a hurry to get stuff done. And installing something might require reboots and reconfig and registry editing, what a colossal time waster windows is. It is very badly engineered bloated garbage. We won't even talk about powershell, I pity the poor bastard who has to write a script with that shit.
They wont care about making drivers for the next version of windows and just tells you to buy a new one
Mendacem Memorem Esse Oportet
I hear that a lot, but from the average person, it is a lot easier to get stuff done with Linux. The exception is games and esoteric programs. Yes, using Excel with trillions of cells is esoteric, and works better than libre office in that context. In fact, my wife uses Windows and frequently cannot do things that I can easily do on Ubuntu. Like open certain files. Windows send to be good for inertia, but that is not the same as getting things done. It's the difference in people vs systems. If you said it is better for people who favor not learning new things, then I would agree. The same could be said of Apple probably, but with more snobbery.
Given that you can basically spin up Linux userland stuff with Ubuntu/Bash on Windows Services for Linux - including Compiz - on Windows 10, switching would simply allow them to keep what they have on the Linux side on the same desktop as on the Windows side without resorting to VMs. The big expense in any rollout of this type isn't licensing, it's deployment and maintenance of the environment. Nerds are always more expensive than licenses - especially the nerds with the unique skillset required to manage a Linux desktop production deployment of this complexity.
I'd guess that might be problematic on account of the apps they use that won't run on those versions of MS Windows? Good suggestion though. Are you an MCSA?
I remember, oh, around 1995, when people were proclaiming "Linux is ready for the desktop" ! I was a full-time user myself and was in full disagreement with that idea too. Yes, some users can adapt and would do okay, but not the business world, average office workers, and so on.
You should stop spreading FUD.
I should stop feeding the trolls.
Sometimes it is the little things, like really little things. I remember when an employee for the university I was working for turned down a new computer because it was not Mac, and only Macs had the proprietary font that she liked to use.
Troll is not a replacement for I disagree.
MS Enterprise Agreement Licensing is expensive and confusing.
An EA operating system license gets you unlimited upgrade rights for $80 per year per machine. This is unrealistic for government agencies who upgrade OS maybe once every 5 years. Also unlimited upgrade rights on Office for just $300 per year, also upgraded once every maybe 2 to 5 years.
The only benefit is yearly licensing can be budgeted. Where if you upgrade every 5 years, the money will not be in your budget.
Just as evil as ever. To this day, the pustulent ghost of Grand Architect Gates still restlessly wanders the halls of Redmond, shedding clouds of toxic dandruff that instantly purges whoever it contacts of all morality.
When all you have is a hammer, every problem starts to look like a thumb.
I remember, oh, around 1995, when people were proclaiming "Linux is ready for the desktop" ! I was a full-time user myself and was in full disagreement with that idea too. Yes, some users can adapt and would do okay, but not the business world, average office workers, and so on.
I have seen a number of offices with employees ranging from superuser to imbecile. These days, even the imbecile level users are not afraid to poke the computer various ways until it does what they want. A decade of smart phones has given them confidence that they can't really break it, and in the few cases where you have an employee that just can't hack it, hiring a replacement that can, costs less than a windows license... For almost everyone else, you put icons on the desktop for the things they would normally need, and they wont even care what the OS is, they'll be able to just use it. Hell, most of them even know how to save their own bookmarks to the desktop *in any OS* because chrome / firefox / safari already do that from within the browser. That is the fundamental reason why MS pushed the new user interface with win 8 and 10, and has been trying to push the surface. If they can get the users used to an interface that is fundamentally incompatible with other OS's, then the value proposition for switching away from windows is far less attractive. The problem they have is that they screwed the pooch, and the majority of users have seen IOS and android, and they don't like windows 8 or 10. That means that the entire employee base has already grown up knowing how to use alternative operating systems and have no fundamental love of windows like Gen Y did. It's over now, and all that is left is watching Microsoft die by inches the way IBM has been doing for the last 30 years.
I wish I had a good sig, but all the good ones are copyrighted
I write this on Android, which is Linux.
Bleh.
IOS [] is FreeBSD.
I wish people would stop spreading this nonsense.
CLI paste? paste.pr0.tips!
they most certainly do, they have an entire group dedicated to testing peripherals.
"Science is the power of man"
I remember, oh, around 1995, when people were proclaiming "Linux is ready for the desktop" ! I was a full-time user myself and was in full disagreement with that idea too. Yes, some users can adapt and would do okay, but not the business world, average office workers, and so on.
All Microsoft has to do is start enforcing licenses and businesses will migrate. I had a client that I dropped about 8 months ago. Over the course of 10 years they continually refused to upgrade their Exchange mail server, and even bastardized their mail infrastructure by setting up a Linux mail server for 'normal' users while keeping their 'advanced' users in Exchange using Outlook. They purchased 20 licenses for Exchange and then proceeded to load 120 users on the system. Exchange 2007 is EoL and they are freaking out that it will cost them $20k to upgrade and become compliant. That doesn't even cover all the copies of Outlook that aren't licensed. Or that need to be upgraded because Outlook 20whatever isn't compatible with Exchange 2007. To become compliant in their infrastructure they need to spend nearly $60k. Or they could just switch to Linux. The cost of me moving ~120 mailboxes from Exchange to Linux would be ~$500.
...but they *NEEEEED* Exchange because it has a calendar....but they don't use any of the shared calendaring features...and they don't want to pay the licenses... FML
Seems pretty obvious that either the right people were bought off, pressure applied in the right places, or both. How many Microsoft suits visited with Munich suits, and what went on?
I, too, like leading people to their deaths over a cliff while telling them "it's really cool over there!" I'm a Linux user, and there's no way they didn't have some issue with breakage or missing software they needed. Or they're a bunch of monkeys on typewriters.
TL;DR: you're full of it
"On the desktop it's for people that enjoy tinkering with computers rather than getting work done."
Not my experience. I'm a plain vanilla Linux user who wants nothing to do with tinkering. I just want the computer to work. Windows kept making problems and Linux fixed them.
Don't step on the baby.
Worked fine on whatever version of LibreOffice I have.
I wish I had a good sig, but all the good ones are copyrighted
"but windows and mac can work for everybody very easily"
Until they don't. And then Linux saved my sanity.
Don't step on the baby.
After all of these years, there's still nothing like OS X
Really? I find Mint/Cinnamon superior to OS X and Windows 10.
You'll have to explain to me what's so good about OS X.
A typical Linux install, unaided by a visit from tech support (and endless rounds of downloads and compiles and patching and dependency resolving and package management goofiness), will not properly support many printers and scanners, will have sketchy ausio support, and will not play common media formats.
Funny you should mention that, My work PC just got upgraded to windows 10 last week, and on Friday I spent half the day trying to get two of the office Brother printers to print anything. I finally gave up and called tech support, I presume they will fix it on Monday.
I wish I had a good sig, but all the good ones are copyrighted
I wish people would stop spreading this nonsense.
NeXT? What's that? scroll scroll scroll FreeBSD! I've heard of that! And so it goes.
"You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
I just did a migration for a Windows 7 customer to a new Windows 10 machine. Manually get all of the accounts and settings on the new system set up like the ones on the old system. Copy over all the data folders. Change over from the old Windows Live email setup to the new Windows 10 Outlook that won't import Windows 7 mail archives and with the People contacts application that doesn't work. Then for the hard part: wait while user thrashes through every file cabinet and closet box looking for his software install discs so I can reinstall the applications. In three cases, download a trial-mode application copy from the company site and wait while user calls Support to wheedle for a usable copy of a license key that he last used eight years ago. Elapsed time, about five hours.
Now a Münchner were to migrate from an old Mac to a new Mac, all he needs to do is unmount the up-to-date Time Machine backup drive from the old machine, plug it into the new machine, click on Migration Assistant, and go pour a Spaten Optimator while it sets up the new machine to be just like the old machine, including all the installed applications.
Confirmed basement dweller. None of these are problems if you buy Enterprise versions..
Right, so the solution to the problem of Microsoft software getting in the way and reducing productivity is to..... Give them more money?
Where I come from we have a word for software like that.
I wish I had a good sig, but all the good ones are copyrighted
Linux Mint works pretty well for me. The only thing I miss is World of Tanks, so I switched to War Thunder and it's pretty damn good.
Let's all take a moment to remember (and laugh at) Microsoft's attempts to foist upon the world a smartphone that ran Windows.
To Microsoft's credit, it did usually start on the third pull.
would make me dump the whole thing, too. Easily one of the Worst Email Clients, ever.
I believe that this was done before Ubuntu went w/ Unity and later Mir. So while it may have been Ubuntu based, that would have simply meant a user friendly version of Debian.
I own a private museum with about 100 computer-driven displays and half a dozen admin/office PCs. Originally I used Linux for 95% of it. Ten years later I have 2 Linux boxes left and the rest are Windows 10. I used to believe all the pro-Linux arguments I'm reading again here, but in the real world there are just too many problems with Linux. It's not any one problem - it's the plethora of annoying niggles that eventually wear you down. For example:
- Unavoidable but incompatible 3rd party hardware and software.
- "Linux-compatible" versions of software that are just crap.
- Driver issues.
- Minor but frequent differences in the way MS Office docs are rendered.
- Browser rendering differences and problems with 3rd party websites (shouldn't happen but does - nothing I can do about that).
+ many, many more little things.
If I was a better sysadmin/programmer and enjoyed spending time addressing these issues then maybe I could make Linux work better. But I'm not and I don't, so Windows it is.
Wow, straight out of the marketing literature! Seriously, who other than microsoft would mumble something like "served up securely" when talking about the "cloud"? Only someone from the market department would ever say "knocked it out of the park".
Big reason is that when an organization goes w/ an FOSS approach, the schedule of whether and when to upgrade is in their hands. With Microsoft, they were first forced out from XP to 7, and now from 7 to 10. A lot of organizations don't have the inclination to upgrade every other year just b'cos...
Besides, in this case, Munich had gone to Linux some years ago doing a complete exercise, from rolling out their own distro - Munix - to getting all their document systems to this. So their entire software infrastructure is already on this. Now, it could be that that leaves them unable to use things like Visio, or lose some of the previous Excel functionality that they had. But they need to assess how much (as a fraction) of their time and effort is spent on such Microsoft-only approaches, vs working on things like a LibreOffice document, or being online on Chrome.
Your argument would make sense if they were already on Windows and considering whether to go Linux. Or maybe even if they had no computing platform and were determining which one to adapt. But it doesn't in this case where Linux is already there, and the move is to migrate to Windows
I wish people would stop spreading this nonsense.
This is why I hate RMS: the grumpy old bastard was right about caling it GNU/Linux. He knew this confusion would come. He was widely mocked as trying to ride on Linus' coattails (even though Linux would never have come to be without the GNU project), but really, he knew that it was likely the kernel would get wrapped in proprietary systems[*] and Linux would not mean what it was customary for it to mean.
[*] Yeah I know it's techincally open, but with the reliance on closed drivers and locked phones, that's of little practical use. Which is yet another thing he was right about.
SJW n. One who posts facts.
Hmmm...so keeping your valuables in MS clutches will not automatically make them available to any authoritarian state that asks for them?
That's very tidy. How...Putin-Trump-Erodgan of you. You do realize they are the same person, yes?
There are flavors of Linux that are end user friendly, like Android or ChromeOS.
Distributions like Ubuntu and Red Hat aren't even close, however. Even now, the UI's seem to be designed to only handle about 90% of common configuration options, with the remaining 10% still requiring users to log onto the command line with sudo/root access or edit obscure configuration files to resolve problems like driver issues.
Sorry guys, but most end users even more afraid of the command line now than they were 10 years ago. If you require users to do this to solve a problem, you've failed at your job as a UI designer.
If the leader of the Munich Green Party is right...it's too bad they don't use all that money for hiring an army of programmers ...
It could just be that the city government feels that its competence lies in providing traditional municipal services like police and fire protection and not in the development of an office suite.
t's for people that enjoy tinkering with computers rather than getting work done
I do like tinkering, but one of the advantages of using Limux/BSD is the lack of annoying disturbances while working.
No nagging about Windows updates or forced reboot, no nagging about the virus scanner doing anything, no nagging of programs needing updates (Adobe, Java, etc.), no nagging advertising (apparently), no nagging about no internet connection if the router or firewall reboots, etc.
My barebones desktop environment (by default totally blank with a clock in the bottom corner) provides me the setting to do what I want to do on the PC; use the programs I started without any distraction.
Write and/or read. https://scifurz.wordpress.com/
Ve vill ask ze questions!
Have gnu, will travel.
This, should be modded up.
"Trump!!", the new Godwin.
100 years from now we'll all be muslims.
"Trump!!", the new Godwin.
Yep, Android is NOT what we usually know as Linux. It only uses the kernel and some low level libraries.
The rest of the system is completely not Linux-like: The filesystem layout is not like the one Linux uses, it barely uses any of the libraries/programs that we take for granted on a Linux system: Bash, XWindows or Wayland, systemd or sysv init.
"when people got shit to do, they dont want to waste time"
Tons of people just want to do internet stuff and email, and there are good linux based OSs for that
I thought I wouldn't be dead in 40 or so years.
Should I convert now or can I sign some sort of promissory note which says that if I'm still alive in 100 years, I'll convert?
Will the people responsible for providng the desktop systems to end users allow them to run things like Crossover Office and Wine, or are they OSS fanatics that force the users to use crappy software even when better albeit non-free alternatives exist? I suspect the latter is the real issue, not the fact that the systems are running Linux.
What? Android rules the smartphone market, while Linux rules the server market, and the supercomputer market.
MS had to give Windows 10 away so people would use it.
What are you smoking?
SAP is a piece of shit. That last I heard usually ran on Linux or UNIX based servers. So is your problem with a (probably) web based client?
If you think poorly written software won't crash in Windows I have a bridge to sell you.
Really? Last I heard Apple applications break with OS upgrades quite easily.
Many prefer to email within word and not open a million compose new message in Outlook. Also the ribbon UI. The file menus are quite dated and mellinials do not know how to use menus outside hamburger ones from their phones
http://saveie6.com/
Gee, what a coincidence. MS moves their European offices to Munich, and Munich "decides" to switch back to Windows... Boy, have I a deal for you!
Sometimes, real fast is almost as good as real-time.
Google migration wizard at Microsoft's website?
http://saveie6.com/
If web based services are what most office staff and bureaucrats use all day long, then you only need a browser. And Linux runs a browser just as well as Windows. And ChromeOS, if you can call it Linux, runs a browser way better than a desktop. (but that's about all it does)
Office software on a desktop is still a little better than the web based options. There isn't a huge difference in terms of capabilities and usability between Office 16 and LibreOffice, but the compatibility between the two is quite poor so it's best to pick just one. Throwing data into a spreadsheet, making some graphs, and slides is pretty much a solved problem on Windows and Linux. Web based stuff is a few steps behind, I anticipate in 3-4 years that it will be to a point that my company can switch (10000+ employees)
When you get into content creation that you have to think carefully about what OS to us. Desktop publishing, graphic design, etc.
Hi IT?
This is Mary from Finance. The CFO needs to submit data to our bank and Java 1.4 from 2002 is not working. It only works for this one. Worse, it keeps saying IE 7 not found? We need this done ASAP by COB as our loan is due and we can't use the security exploit in Java 1.4.2 to open Excel and create a dump of a CSV file for our records! We will be fined a fee?!
Sadly I am speaking of a real situation too and wish that was a joke
http://saveie6.com/
If you want proprietary, go with MS-Windows.
Some here think that that statement is over-emotional bashing, but it's not. I really mean it. Microsoft does proprietary better than Red Hat.
There are advantages to proprietary. An OS controlled by one group will be more coherent. Today's Linux, by contrast, is all over the map.
The downsides of a proprietary system is deliberate obfuscation, and vendor lock-in.
Red Hat is following Microsoft's playbook to the letter. Right down to the exact same propaganda, FUD, and astro-turfing. I followed MS business practices for decades, and to me, it's glaringly obvious.
From another forum:
> This sharper division between developers and users is also a goal of the freedesktop/systemd/gnome push. If you don't believe me, go look in /etc/udev and tell me humans are intended to touch anything in there. No line breaks, no comments, no reliable documentation other than the source. Same for dconf, although it least it, unlike the Windows Registry, has an explicit feature for help text as an option for each key... although it is pitiful how few actually have any supplied. Again, the assumption in actual use in the field is that dconf is for applications. Developers will write apps that store values in the 'registry' and those apps alone will manipulate them. If an app doesn't expose a knob to change one the user isn't supposed to manually tamper with it.
> This reminds me of Microsoft paying De Icaza to attack Linux from the inside with the Mono trojan horse. Now, it is Red Hat (no doubt directed by their customer Fed Gov) directly attacking the simple, modular, do-one-thing-right Unix design philosophy and replacing it with the far-reaching, metastatizing blob that is SystemD. Why? To bake-in impossible to find, intentional backdoors and vulnerabilities as designed by Poettering and the rest of his paid-off coven.
In a migration, OS X carefully identifies applications that are not compatible with an OS upgrade and places them in a special folder. In a major release there is usually one or two of these.
Your link goes to a Not Found page, but there was a Windows migration utility in the past. It is no longer offered with 10.
In your dreams buddy.
Our senior citizens over 45 hate change and open tickets if they have to change their workflows in any way.
Worse, these melenials you speak of love the ribbons and flat UI of office and windows 10. The nested hell of menus of LibreOffice is like a Horror movie to them.
I used to use Linux as my main OS. It's not worth it for me or anyone who uses it for non servers. It's a VM to me as I had to keep using VMS last decade and dual boot to game. I got tired of it and Windows 7 was actually stable.
http://saveie6.com/
That would leave them in Dia straits :)
The FreeBSD desktop is PC-BSD which recently got rebranded TrueOS. Regrettably, the latest versions are somehow buggy: I've simply been unable to update my system to that, w/o having it hang. I'd really like to install the 'Playonbsd' and on that, Steam, and get going.
I think that you are confusing user land and kernel land.
Linux is not an operating system. It is just a kernel.
Ubuntu is an operating system. It generally include the Linux kernel and a mostly GNU user land.
But Ubuntu isn't Linux; it also runs on Windows.
Only Linux is Linux. And Android uses Linux for a kernel.
Kid-proof tablet..
Besides looking a bit different, and fixing serious shit bugs, outlook 2015+ is hardly any different to 2007.
Why cant people use software for 10 years + like they use cars, its not like software degrades over time like food, it still works, just companies dont fix bugs.
Ahh i know, its policy to always have bugs, never fix anoyying bugs in present released, but only in new releases so that people have to upgrade.
Liberty freedom are no1, not dicks in suits.
how anyone gets any work done on Windows or Mac OS is beyond my understanding.
either use online outlook.com or use google apps.
Which ever $/user/month suits you.
Saves you in power bills and running hardware, give the old server away to your IT guy or ebay it.
Its amazing how many quad core xeon 3ghz, 16gb ram servers you can find for under $500 online. If anything, good for a home cloud/server.
Liberty freedom are no1, not dicks in suits.
I don't understand how moving to Microsoft would improve compatibility. Their handling of open formats is nororiously bad.
If you are working for the Government, then you probably want to choose LibreOffice, because it complies with standards and is not controlled by an overseas commercial interest which you cannot influence.
Or, you might be American.
Sent from my ASR33 using ASCII
And that differs from the desktop applications on Windows?
In particular, in my experience, there is a lot more support for Linux than Windows. In fact, I have been using computers since before Windows was invented, and have NEVER managed to get any useful support from MS, ever. (Very good support for OS/2 from IBM though).
I would support long terms of imprisonment for anyone forcing UI changes on users, regardless of OS - Ribbons, Unity, "flat" Androids: They are all aggravation for the sake of aggravation. The pedals and gear stick on my Ford are the same place they were on my 1955 model Ford. If it works, don't #~$% with the UI!
Sent from my ASR33 using ASCII
Dear Mary,
Please log on, via the VDI to a Windows machine I've just set up (URL here, and help URL here), with your usual credentials, and you should be able to complete this. Let me know when you are done as since this relies on a security hole I'll block access to it afterwards, but rest assured that the machine will be available on request next time you need it.
Regards,
IT
This is why the millions of people using Raspberry Pis cannot possibly use it, it's too difficult for them, when we see them using it, we are dreaming or deceived by Descarte's evil demon.
Sarcasm apart, I've used it as a desktop for about 10 years, it's become steadily easier over that period. We started a project for a housing estate (that's a 'project' for Americans, but it may be nicer) with about 20 older machines that we repurposed. Older people (therefore without some of these prejudices) used Linux, without really realising that they were not using the market standard.
I can see that a lot of commentary here will be Microsoft astro-turfing, so I won't both to reply to each one, but the above statement is nearly nonsense. Incidentally, I'm not a fanatic either, I keep a Windows laptop for music, because I still use Pro Tools. I must say, in terms of random problems (and I'm very careful about virus protection etc.) it is much more of a pain than my vintage 2006 tower running Linux Mint, usually due to driver problems and resultant BSOD episodes.
On y va, qui mal y pense!
Windows Vista is not supported anymore since 2012, and the extended support will end this year, IIRC. The OS was released in 2007. It seems to me that Redhat life cycle is that long since RHEL 5, which was released before Vista. And Redhat's support is actually happening if you need it... So yeah, support ain't an advantage ?
Canonical only offers 5 years for the LTS releases of Ubuntu. So wouldn't have cut it for your Vista example, yet, 5 years seems quite reasonable to plan an upgrade of the OS. It's not because MS users run outdated OS for 10+ years that it makes it a good idea.
Anal ventriloquism; impressive. I've switched over hundreds of my clients [who are casual users] from Winblows to Mint over the past six years or so and the less technically adept they are, the more likely they are to benefit.
How, by being tied to you for paid support?
I've run Linux farms, and won't go anywhere else for most application servers, because they can configured perfectly for the task at hand. But user machines need to be prioritised to UI, device compatibility, and familiarity and Linux is horrible by comparison.
I don't expect much agreement in here, but I've worked in several places that allow techy staff (non-MS techies) their own machines (laptop/desktop), and most of them choose Mac or Windows. I know of precisely zero non-techy staff that have even heard of Linux.
There is a reason that the Linux desktop has failed outside a few fringe experiments (like Munich) because it simply doesn't stack up.
If web based services are what most office staff and bureaucrats use all day long, then you only need a browser. And Linux runs a browser just as well as Windows. And ChromeOS, if you can call it Linux, runs a browser way better than a desktop. (but that's about all it does)
We ran a Chrome project as a desktop replacement experiment. It's still going after a couple of years, failing mainly due to device issues (printing scanning type things) , and legacy app issues. Because although most of the world is going web, it only takes one non-web app to kill any Chrome strategy.
I suspect one of the reasons large, public IT projects like this, tend to fail, is that they are unrealistically ambitious and ill-planned. It is possible to make a transition like this, if it is done gradually and with buy-in from the people who have to use it. It is all about impact management; there is always going to be a set of problems for each new component, and if you replace all components in a large system in one go, you end up with a situation where all users are hit by the sum of all the problems at the same time. What you have to do is make smaller transitions, limit the number of users hit with problems, work with them to fix everything, and get them to like the new system; then the rest of the users are all going to want it. Then on to the next component.
As for using Firefox - it is perfectly doable to have a mix of browsers and mail clients and concentrating on sorting out the problems you may have on Firefox. Firefox has many advantages (or used to - I haven't compared them for a long time) over IE - once people are confident that they can do their job just as well with Firefox, they will probably want to use over their old browser.
Most likely their forms and submissions relied on MS Office docs. Then add probably some other things like Autocad for plan review and what not. I can see where all of this failed without proper prepping.
Linux is mainly for servers and embedded systems. On the desktop it's for people that enjoy tinkering with computers rather than getting work done.
Funny that I stopped using Windows and moved to Linux on my desktop precisely because I was tired of having to maintain the system itself and wasting my time on tinkering rather getting work done.
Right. Try to find ASIC design software that does not require Linux.
The article also reports that Microsoft moved its German headquarters to Munich last year.
*sigh*... like this is going to be a rational vote for what's best in the city. And for a temporary boost in jobs, they're going to shoot themselves in the foot over the next 5 years. I never thought I'd see this narrow-minded short term profit mentality spread to Germany, of all places...
"Set a man a fire, he'll be warm for the rest of the night. Set a man afire, he'll be warm for the rest of his life."
I'm surprised there isn't a national government somewhere funding open source software.
In the US, the National Endowment for the Arts spends $146 million a year on stuff which most Americans never see or are affected by in any way, and some of which is offensive to large segments of the population ("Piss Christ", nude "performance art, etc.).
Imagine how much quality open source software could be produced with $146 million per year? For comparison, LibreOffice has a budget of under a million euros per year.
This discussion is like talking about socialism or religion. Logic has no place in the discussion. Yes, those that have done it know that Linux is far more stable and reliable for the average user but those that shout the loudest will convince people that they cannot live without Windows. Why? Just like you ask the average person about socialism and they will shout about Stalin and not let you discuss Scandinavia or Germany or explain that the best economies in the world are socialist. Try and talk about Muslims and people will focus on the 0.05% that are a problem and ignore the fact that that does not represent the truth. I have set up Linux workstations for people that need reliability and they work for years without attention. That is the main thing that most people want. When I was not around, one client was talked into returning to Windows but after 6 months ended up switching to Apple because having got used to Linux, Windows is terrible. I cannot stay around to support people but I have not had anyone who spends long enough to actually get used to Linux choose to return to Windows.
I love stacking my barbecues in the shed at the end of summer - you can't beat a bit of grill on grill action.
NeXT was based on a Mach microkernel. Apple wantes some of the userland of a modern Unix to go with the NeXTStep carcass so they ported in some of the FreeBSD userland. They hired one of the lead FreeBSD developers because Apple didn't have native talent for a real, robust OS.
Before NeXTStep, they pissed away many millions on two in-house attempts at a next generation OS. They failed both times. Apple just isn't good at anything but the cosmetic top GUI layer. Their NIH culture always bites them; in the end they give up and buy in something from outside to rebrand.
This is all common knowledge that any nerd can explain anytime the fanboys aren't blathering and the marketing fucks aren't controlling the conversation by peppering in adjectives ('great', 'incredible', etc.)
Munich never really switched fully to Linux. They also made matters more complicated by not using an off the shelf distro and instead rolling their own. Nevertheless, it does show that desktop Linux is lacking tremendously in user experience and that support of especially MSO formats is sorely lacking. I use LO and once in a while I get a docx file that is unreadable when opened in LO. For some part due to MSO not fully complying with OOXML despite Microsoft ramming this horrific format through standards bodies, but also that FOSS is notorious for "we do it because we like it that way" and "not invented here" attitude. How many times did I try to make the switch myself just to find that it takes hours just to set up a network share that can also be accessed by Windows systems? Or the not that unusual hardware like a Brother network printer that has craptastic hardware support under Linux. Or the inexplicable need by desktop managers to ape the look and feel of OS X. Don't get me wrong, for free the Linux distros are excellent, especially when running on low cost SBCs like a Pi 3. Using a Pi and Linux one can build a desktop system for less money than what a Win 10 license costs, not to speak from the large amount of free software. Nevertheless, Linux desktops will be a niche as long as UX, file format and hardware support do not improve significantly.
Are you serious? We're not talking about upgrading some kid in his basement from Windows 7 to Windows 10.
If you are an administrator in an Enterprise, this sentence alone should get you fired on the spot for gross incompetency
Sigh, another MacTard that is clueless about Enterprise requirements.
An enterprise installation is a different animal. The admin sets up one user system to the desired configuration, images it, and then copies the image into umpty identical machines. This works the same way for Mac and Windows, so the easy IT path is for the lowest-cost hardware. When a Windows box gets trashed by the usual malware, you just re-image it from the company standard.
"There isn't a huge difference in terms of capabilities and usability between Office 16 and LibreOffice, "
No, you are wrong.
I had not use Office for about 10 years and just got a new version. It is really much better than LibreOffice in terms of performance. For grammar checking and spell check, it is not even close. As an OS Linux is fine, I use Linux every day for development at work but I also have a Windows box that I just use for Skype and Office.
Honestly, if I could get Office and Skype for business on my Linux machine I would not need the Windows machine. Before anyone suggests Whine, a VM, or some other solution let me add this. I work for a large company so they have to dot every i and cross every t. We can spin Linux VMs up and down all day long but when we touch Windows it must be done by EIT.
See my blog http://ilovecookes.blogspot.com/ for light hearted technical information.
The average Android phone provides much less freedom to the user than desktop Windows, even Windows 10.
There is even sort of a class warfare angle to Android phones : perhaps you buy a $800 bleeding edge phone every couple year and get the freedom to run a patched system, unlock this, unlock that, install a firewall, etc.
An average Android phone allows none of those things. It runs an abandonware version of Android 5.0.1 or 5.1, it might be carrier-branded (and GSM-unlocked) or called something like "Glurbz JY8" or even be a lower end model from a semi-recognizable or recognizable brand, and a web search about doing stuff with it will turn empty.
Again, this is in the absolutely simplest sense. Prior to this the admin has, of course, used System Center or similar, to make sure that each user can only run the applications he is allowed to run, and that those apps are in fact installed on the PC when the user logs in etc...
Now, to your repeated jab at Windows, why does Apple run its entire iCloud infrastructure on Windows (Azure and AWS)? If Windows is as bad as your Fan-boy religion tells you,wouldn't that be counter-productive? Which do you think needs the better stability and up-time, iCloud or the toy you use to play games on?
As someone over 45, I appreciate those tickets. They let me, and my peers, know what the _users_ need the system to do, not what we wish the users wanted to do with our systems. And their requests are very good early warning signs of very real bugs, or of user documentation that needs to be improved.
Azure is a server OS that has nothing to do with consumer Windows.
Anal ventriloquism; impressive. I've switched over hundreds of my clients [who are casual users] from Winblows to Mint over the past six years or so and the less technically adept they are, the more likely they are to benefit.
How, by being tied to you for paid support?
I've run Linux farms, and won't go anywhere else for most application servers, because they can configured perfectly for the task at hand. But user machines need to be prioritised to UI, device compatibility, and familiarity and Linux is horrible by comparison.
I don't expect much agreement in here, but I've worked in several places that allow techy staff (non-MS techies) their own machines (laptop/desktop), and most of them choose Mac or Windows. I know of precisely zero non-techy staff that have even heard of Linux.
There is a reason that the Linux desktop has failed outside a few fringe experiments (like Munich) because it simply doesn't stack up.
The office worker normally does a few things and needs to do them well
Spread Sheets
Technical Proposals
Power Point type slides
Emails
The top three are from LibreOffice. Until the new release is available with the ribbon interface, I would use wps.com's software on Linux. LibreOffice takes too many keystrokes to get things done and is not fully compatible with MS Office. The wps.com stuff is fully compatible and is a Linux version.
If the user loses time preparing spreadsheets and writing documents, then consider that the lost manhours are worth more than Linux and LibreOffice.
However, if LibreOffice can work as well as wps.com's offerings, I can't see a reason to switch backwords to Windows 10.
The city government must realize that its not just W10, but anti-virus, and a whole workforce to support W10. In my view, a much larger workforce than is needed for Linux support.
Leslie Satenstein Montreal Quebec Canada
Microsoft took the city's leaving so seriously that then CEO Steve Ballmer flew to Munich to meet the mayor. More recently, Microsoft last year moved its German company headquarters to Munich.
None of anything you said is terribly relevant for a large enterprise. Windows is far from trouble free. That's why you need experts to deal with it so that the rank and file employees don't have to waste their time.
A Pirate and a Puritan look the same on a balance sheet.
With regard to MS Office / LibreOffice, I'm not surprised.
I've edited a few large contract documents in the last year, and LibreOffice Writer consistently mangled the images and in some cases the formatting, even with things which had been added to the document by LibreOffice itself. In other words, we'd save a file in LibreOffice, load it back, and get something different than we had before we saved it.
MS Word has the same kind of problems (can't reliably save and load back to itself), however when I was working on those documents last year, it proved much more reliable than LibreOffice Writer.
Which is a shame, as apart from the open source goodness, and the price, LibreOffice has a nice change history / diffing tool (which we kept on using).
In one case, loading a file into LibreOffice Writer mangled the formatting of some text so badly someone thought a financial proposition was quite different than what was really being said, causing a right panic, and only when I loaded the same file into MS Word were we able to clarify the problem.
Also I don't think I've ever seen an MS Word form render properly in LibreOffice.
We really had no choice but to buy MS Word licenses, though I'd really rather not, and can't really afford them.
No. Esoteric is something that the vast majority of users don't use and have never heard of and it would never occur to them to do.
This is why Macs can be so useful. The vast majority of consumer users don't need obscure vertical apps or an overwrought word processor. Using a spreadsheet doesn't even occur to them.
Even among actual business users, more esoteric spreadsheet functions are not relevant and would probably be considered backwards and cludgey. This is 2016. We have moved past the single user desktop mentality of the 80s.
A Pirate and a Puritan look the same on a balance sheet.
Total rubes are helpless and always will be helpless. It doesn't matter what OS they are running. Also anti-engineered designs like iTunes and other Apple applications really help no one.
A Pirate and a Puritan look the same on a balance sheet.
You have that backwards. The Linux projects lead where Microsoft followed. All of them rushing off a cliff at full speed.
A Pirate and a Puritan look the same on a balance sheet.
"The mayor was against free software from the beginning," said Matthias Kirschner, the president of Free Software Foundation Europe (FSFE). "When he was elected, he took pride in getting Microsoft to move their office to Munich [a move that took place last September]. He even gave this study to Accenture, which is a Microsoft partner."
"I used to believe all the pro-Linux arguments I'm reading again here, but in the real world there are just too many problems with Linux
"I own a private museum" ref
What's the name of this private museum?
Te Awamutu Space Centre. www.spacecentre.nz
Yet.
~ People that think they are better than anyone else for any reason are the cause of all the strife in the world.
Have you tried office 365 in a browser?
Anal ventriloquism; impressive. I've switched over hundreds of my clients [who are casual users] from Winblows to Mint over the past six years or so and the less technically adept they are, the more likely they are to benefit.
How, by being tied to you for paid support? I've run Linux farms, and won't go anywhere else for most application servers, because they can configured perfectly for the task at hand. But user machines need to be prioritised to UI, device compatibility, and familiarity and Linux is horrible by comparison. I don't expect much agreement in here, but I've worked in several places that allow techy staff (non-MS techies) their own machines (laptop/desktop), and most of them choose Mac or Windows. I know of precisely zero non-techy staff that have even heard of Linux. There is a reason that the Linux desktop has failed outside a few fringe experiments (like Munich) because it simply doesn't stack up.
I'm not sure how to tell you this, but quite a few casual users I've dealt with have walked off with Linux live disks taken from my emergency stack because of Microsoft's UI decisions from Win8 on--and most seem to be pretty happy with the move.
Admittedly, the flavors in my stack of Linux live disks are deliberately picked to be luser-friendly--it exists so I don't have to be bothered by others' needing data off a hosed OS, or who can't even tell if it's a software or hardware problem. (In the second case, I basically tell them pick a disk, tell me if the computer will boot and if it does, do you still have the problem?)
If they can't manage to get a disk into an optical drive and boot the computer up...well, either that's outright part of what is wrong with the machine and I need to go over with a live USB to continue diagnostics, or I can safely identify where at least one major problem is located and that it is one that cannot be fixed...
It is a great time to own a restaurant in Munich...think of all of those dinners and "best of the best" bottles of wine and/or brandy that Microsoft and/or Microsoft's "partners" are buying for all of those "conservatives"/"traditionalists" (i.e., traditionally, they're accustomed to being wined and dined, minimally, if you want corporate/public money diverted into your pockets)....
Orwell: "In a Time of Universal Deceit, telling the Truth is a Revolutionary Act"
Linux is mainly for servers and embedded systems. On the desktop it's for people that enjoy tinkering with computers rather than getting work done.
While that is a popular impression of Linux, the past several years has been allowing people who have no idea of what they are doing to use Linux. It is now simpler to use than Windows by a wide margin. My wife was so pissed off at Windows 8, she refused to use the nice laptop I bought her. I installed Mint, and she hasn't looked back, and even does her system maintenance now.
Perhaps http://www.microsoft.com/en-us... has something to do ith it. Politicians are easily purchased. And I am certain that Redmond has been having a hissy fit since Munich betrayed them, so the right number of Deutschmarks to the right people and all your problems go away. Because there are no problems with Windows 10 - it's the best OS ever!
Personally, I hope that they do, so that they can experience the joy of Windows 10.
The shepherds did so well protecting the flock that the sheep no longer believed that wolves existed.
I know that you can get MS Office for Macs, so honestly I suspect that the only thing keeping Microsoft from selling a Linux version is a perceived lack of demand, never mind that I suspect it'd take rather little effort to actually get out the door.
That said, my experience with MS Office and LibreOffice is that they're equally good overall--each has different places where they're better or worse, and the problem is that MS Office expects me to pay for a program that's merely differently dysfunctional from what I can use for free. (I'm a bit amused that spellcheck is part of what keeps you in MS Office, because it's actually what drove me to try the FOSS alternative--MS Office's spellcheck was annoyingly hostile to my writing things thick with technical vocabulary, and not that friendly to attempts to get it to learn new words. As for grammar checking...my experience is that neither's really any better at it yet than 'small human paid with bag of candy.')
Anal ventriloquism; impressive. I've switched over hundreds of my clients [who are casual users] from Winblows to Mint over the past six years or so and the less technically adept they are, the more likely they are to benefit.
Darth Nadella has just felt a shift in the force, and the ShillTroopers will be coming after you.
Especially since you are right.
The shepherds did so well protecting the flock that the sheep no longer believed that wolves existed.
We do not have approval for Office 365 at my office. The real issue is Skype for Business. That and our Linux Boxes have strange issues with the security proxy.
See my blog http://ilovecookes.blogspot.com/ for light hearted technical information.
I'm not sure how to tell you this, but quite a few casual users I've dealt with have walked off with Linux live disks taken from my emergency stack because of Microsoft's UI decisions from Win8 on--and most seem to be pretty happy with the move.
Admittedly, the flavors in my stack of Linux live disks are deliberately picked to be luser-friendly--it exists so I don't have to be bothered by others' needing data off a hosed OS, or who can't even tell if it's a software or hardware problem.
Microsoft shills have become the next generation of denialists. They experience cognitive dissonance when faced with the truth. My wife has less problems with her Minty laptop than I do with my brand New W10 Envy. I run my database and spreadsheet on my iMac on AO that I take from the Mac to AO on Linux, and AO on My new machine. 100 percent compatible. On Windows Office, it isn't even compatible from Windows to MacOS, and nothing on Linux. Well, except that I can open Microsoft Office files.
My guess, outside of the paid shills, is people who maybe tried Linux in early days and went through dependency hell, people who tried to impose Windows on Linux, and maybe people who only run server farms. Certainly for some of my more exotic work, I need to use the terminal, and make, compile and install my own applications, but my Wife who uses Linux exclusively (Mint) maintains her own computer, and doesn't even know what the terminal is. She uses the typical emsil Browsing and AO office suite.
The shepherds did so well protecting the flock that the sheep no longer believed that wolves existed.
You're kidding, right? Most of the people I've watched hate Win8+ most are 'melenials'--including myself (from the upper end of it) and people who are designers, some of whom are even willing to do it for $$$. (Design tends to be one of those places where somebody not doing it professionally may be very good at the official skillset but either lacks or doesn't feel they are paid enough to obtain the unofficial required skillset of 'dealing with delusional idiots from management.')
I will admit, the flat UI is nice, but honestly? I am pretty sure somebody's already kicked out the door what I need to get whatever flavor of Linux desktop to have that flat look, without things like tiles unless I decide in a fit of insanity I need those. The ribbons? Actually, really damn annoying, because ribbons seem to be intended to be menus for barely-literates who cannot be trusted with hotkeys either. Just let me customize my toolbar or ribbon or header of buttony goodness so everything I actually need regularly is up there. I want to be able to click (or tap) once and be done.
Honestly, I kind of suspect ribbons are the result of delusional idiots from management, precisely because a lot of the stuff that seems to end up in the ribbon that's most easily gotten at are those things I would expect somebody in middle management to use most often.
This discussion is like talking about socialism or religion. Logic has no place in the discussion. Yes, those that have done it know that Linux is far more stable and reliable for the average user but those that shout the loudest will convince people that they cannot live without Windows.
That's because Linux OS people aren't paid to yell.
I use 'em all, I know what is best, more stable, and easiest to use. I don't really care what people whose argument's main point is that if you aren't on Windows think., you're a moron.
The shepherds did so well protecting the flock that the sheep no longer believed that wolves existed.
Azure is a server OS that has nothing to do with consumer Windows
Azure is Windows Server. Windows Server and regular Windows are built on the same core with some parameters changed on Windows Server to prioritize differently than what is required on a client OS. You should cure your ignorance before continuing.
Please note, there is also an amount of Linux servers in Azure, but these were added to the platform subsequent to Apple moving to Azure and are not used by Apple.
None of anything you said is terribly relevant for a large enterprise. Windows is far from trouble free. That's why you need experts to deal with it so that the rank and file employees don't have to waste their time.
Ahh,that brings up something else. I've always been intrigued by the Windows is less expensive crowd. Where I was, there was an army of people supporting Windows, and 1 person supporting OSX - me. And I supported Windows as needed. If everyone switched to OSX, the department would lose almost everyone. Yet they always chanted the mantra that Windows was the cheapest OS to use. As long as you didn't count the employees, the managers, and the division head, that is.
The shepherds did so well protecting the flock that the sheep no longer believed that wolves existed.
So, I take it you're one of these "mellinials"? As for Millennials, many of us have been using computers long enough to have gotten to use Win7 if not older versions such as WinXP, especially since K12 schools can often be expected to have their Win boxes running older versions--those of us at the older end can even remember working with Win3.1.
I've personally worked on everything from command lines to ribbons and honestly have had an easier time with things I had to rely on using badly-documented command lines to get to work than quite a few ribbons. They're a mix of the worst of toolbars and menus, wrapped up with the assumption that the enduser is barely literate in any sense of the word. (I've worked on systems where I wasn't fluent in the OS's language, too. Still a better experience than ribbons.)
You might want to be a bit cautious about calling an entire generation stupid when you can't even spell its name right, especially when browsers typically have built-in spellcheck. I will, though, agree that most of it is--it's just not this stupid outside of the delusions of the people who believe that the current UI trends are a Good Idea.
Sounds about right--part of the entire reason I have those live disks is because I'm not being paid to provide support, and thus prefer to enable DIYing it since I've no incentive to up billable hours. (The other part is that I use them myself.)
Sounds about right--part of the entire reason I have those live disks is because I'm not being paid to provide support, and thus prefer to enable DIYing it since I've no incentive to up billable hours. (The other part is that I use them myself.)
THIS! Being retired now, I want to help people, but I don't want to own every problem they have, and I want to get them fixed and get out.
Now that being said, if I was a paid support guy, you can damn well bet I will tell people they need to install and use Windows 10. That way I have a built in return market.
All I can say is thank heavens for Teamviewer. I've come to the point where I explain to them what the problems are while I'm doing the Teamviewer session. I've found a lot of them have tried troubleshooting - especially with audio problems - and insist that since Windows said there was no problem, that there was no problem.
And that includes a couple assholes who got pissed off at me because I told them they couldn't depend on Windows troubleshooting. A funny world where people ask for free help, and be a jerk to the person helping them.
The shepherds did so well protecting the flock that the sheep no longer believed that wolves existed.
Jesus Christ man, my exorbitant bullshit meter melted when I pointed it towards your post! Thanks for nothing, you insensitive clod!
Not so. I switched to Linux about 10 years ago because I was tired of continually having to tinker with windows to get it to do what it was supposed to do. Linux allowed me to use my computer to do actual work, and not have to do worry about the machine doing what it wanted to do instead of what I wanted it to do.
Tempora mutantur, nos et mutamur in illis
Thanks. I'm not and never have been a gamer, so I never really look at that side of it. But I think you're right, Linux needs to be more recreation-friendly to pick up some important, new generation, younger users.
On y va, qui mal y pense!
The office worker normally does a few things and needs to do them well Spread Sheets Technical Proposals Power Point type slides Emails
The top three are from LibreOffice.
To a point, the problem you run into is if you are a decent sized org, you will also have ERP integration, which generally works with Excel out of the box.
You also get compatibility issues if you share docs across organisations. It might work most of the time, but the few times it fucks up you will under the spotlight as to why you chose this shit software.
Windows/Office works with more things more often, which is why most businesses go down that path.
The city government must realize that its not just W10, but anti-virus, and a whole workforce to support W10. In my view, a much larger workforce than is needed for Linux support.
You're talking TCO, which numerous studies have demonstrated the results.
There is a reason that 90%+ of desktops are Windows, and it's not all to do with golf course deals.
Microsoft shills have become the next generation of denialists. They experience cognitive dissonance when faced with the truth.
Oh this is going to be fun... My wife has less ...
So your experience is based one individual use case? Cognitive dissonance is indeed a powerful force...
The state of consumer electronics and small computers is indeed reprehensible.
But what does this have to do with Android using Linux, and Linux being only a kernel?
Kid-proof tablet..
Nothing.
But that's like someone trying to do something on Windows 10 that can't be done unless one runs an Enterprise or Server edition, and he/she is replied : "but the telnet and ping it uses come from BSD!"
Or because this needed be godwin'ed : "What are you complaining about with the Holocaust? The crematorium ovens were neat and efficient. This spared a number of sanitary issues."
I already Godwin'd the thing just by showing up.
But that's an interesting tangent, since all of the current Windows run essentially the same kernel, and pretty much all of the IP stack was borrowed from BSD...
Kid-proof tablet..
I am pretty sure somebody's already kicked out the door what I need to get whatever flavor of Linux desktop to have that flat look, without things like tiles unless I decide in a fit of insanity I need those.
Ricing my desktop was one of the things that got me into Linux and a source of amazement that Microsoft still doesn't provide a clean, out-of-the-box, just-werks way to buy and install themes on Windows.
Right...
Everywhere I've worked with multi-platform users (PC & Mac) the Mac admins smugly argue they could support the entire organization by themselves, but they ignore how much work the non-Mac admins do:
Manage file, application, database, web servers
I did that.
Manage end-user authentication
I did that.
Manage network infrastructure
Didn't run copper, but spec'ed and installed an Apple server or two.
Manage internet security
Surely you jest!
Perform daily backups
Hourly.
Mac admins make sure their client machines stay up and users can work with their applications.
Those smug Mac People! I did all of that stuff (except manually running copper) that you extol as proof of the superiority of the Windows ecosystem and it's maintainers, plus knew how to work with Mac's, If I was at all smug, it was because the people whose skillset extended to Windows and nothing but Windows were ready to piss their pants if there was a Mac problem even given to them. It's like a celebration of people knowing less. The less operating systems you know about, the more you can know that the one you do know about is the unparalleled best one.For some folks. I guess.
The shepherds did so well protecting the flock that the sheep no longer believed that wolves existed.
Microsoft shills have become the next generation of denialists. They experience cognitive dissonance when faced with the truth.
Oh this is going to be fun... My wife has less ...
So your experience is based one individual use case? Cognitive dissonance is indeed a powerful force...
What? You take an example and somehow determine that I only have one example?
The irony in your cognitive dissonance comment is truly satisfying. You are exactly correct, though perhaps applying ti to the wrong person. I drove across the state of Florida two days ago. That does not translate to I ave driven across the state of Florida only once, or that I am the only person to ever drive across the state of Florida. I have done that many times, and many people do it.
If you need more examples, I have switched dozens of people from Windows to Linux. MOstly grandma types who are tired of the problems they have with Windows. And some folks who are more adroit, but likewise tired of the hassle.
The shepherds did so well protecting the flock that the sheep no longer believed that wolves existed.
I am pretty sure somebody's already kicked out the door what I need to get whatever flavor of Linux desktop to have that flat look, without things like tiles unless I decide in a fit of insanity I need those.
Ricing my desktop was one of the things that got me into Linux and a source of amazement that Microsoft still doesn't provide a clean, out-of-the-box, just-werks way to buy and install themes on Windows.
It's like they don't even want that money.
The really sad thing here is that you can get a lot of low-level accessibility just by installing the right themes--for example, if you've got light sensitivity problems, the high contrast themes do nothing, and I suspect you could kick out a visually-enjoyable set of themes designed for those with forms of colorblindness. (I'd have the dual goals of it not at any point needing the user to be able to perceive colors at all, and being obvious about it.)
Small businesses can use office365 or G Suite or similar. works on any current platform including Linux.
by the way, I use outlook for mac (and all the other office for mac stuff) at work, haven't had problems
If you need more examples, I have switched dozens of people from Windows to Linux. MOstly grandma types who are tired of the problems they have with Windows. And some folks who are more adroit, but likewise tired of the hassle.
And if you can't appreciate that the use cases for computer users worldwide is more than a dozen grandmas you've met, then I can't help you. Cognitive dissonance and all that...
It's about principles. FOSS isn't about saving $$ (though by most objective measures that does happen) ... FOSS is about the principles of openness and liberty. Windows ... is about the principles of corporatism and pay-to-play. Note I didn't say capitalism ... corporatism.
"Ahh! I see you're in that indeterminate Schrodinger state where - oh, uh
Chromebooks tend to scroll better than the same hardware running Windows. Having done some development for ChromeOS before, there is a fair amount of custom work to accelerate browser behavior on that platform. They can do this because shipping Chromebooks have hardware chosen for the task, even if the CPU and graphics chipset usually fairly low spec.
A Linux box with poorly supported hardware is not going to scroll very well, it's falling back to software memmove/bitblit to shuffle the screen on the best browser and redrawing to a back buffer on the worst browsers. But generally these days if you pick a system with Intel graphics that isn't a mobile chipset, it's going to work out of the box and have enough support for hardware on X11 or Wayland to accelerate 2D. Nvidia cards that aren't the current generation (or Optimus) work great on Nouveau for 2D out of the box on nearly all distributions. I haven't bothered with Radeon in years, so I'm sure you can research that yourself if you're interested in the answer there.
“Common sense is not so common.” — Voltaire
Sadly, most of the world does not use one standard document format. If you operate a large organization you can at least decide on the format you wish to use internally and possibly put requirements in place for which formats you will import and export. My preference is to use an open standard so you aren't screwed over later by the single corporation that controls the format. Multiple vendors that can provide software allows for fair bidding of contracts, and that alone should probably make proprietary formats considered illegal in the context of a government.
My main problem with mixing LibreOffice and MSOffice is that the conversion from one to the other appears to work on the surface, but sometimes the document or spreadsheet is loses macros and formulas that you may require for your editing workflow.
At work we use Excel to do project planning, and every developer checks the file out and updates it daily. It's packed full of cell formulas to work out schedule burn down and estimate when tasks are on a critical path. This works well as long as someone doesn't edit it with LibreOffice. We've demonstrated that the same kind of spreadsheet can be made to work with LibreOffice, so it's down to everyone agreeing to use the same software.
You may wonder why we don't buy some snazzy software to do the job. This is cheaper and any team can replicate the workflow and adapt the fields easily to maybe different kinds of projects. So there are version for Software, Hardware, QA(sw and hw), and it can theoretically be used for IT upgrade planning. (but IT uses some more agile-like set of special programs instead)
“Common sense is not so common.” — Voltaire
Porting Office from Win32/COM to Cocoa was almost certainly a big job, and there is not much that you can leverage on the GUI in porting it to GTK or QT to run on Linux. But if anyone has access to an army of developers to get it done, it's Microsoft.
“Common sense is not so common.” — Voltaire
Great. Same for my ex, some minor problems in the first couple of weeks (mainly education rather than software) and now 'it just works'.
On y va, qui mal y pense!
This is the new astro-turfing mantra from Microsoft now that people are switching away. Actually the last large Windows deployments where I worked, we waited 20 minutes for roaming profiles, each morning, multiple crashes each month. Every other recent place where we (developers) have been given the choice, it's always been some kind of Linux desktop, faster boot, free of Windows viruses, lower powered systems etc. etc.
I'd love to see the 'measurements' for this assertion, since Win 10 has only been around for a moment too.
On y va, qui mal y pense!
The worst part is it's an intentional decision. Microsoft decided that the risk of something crashing due to mismatched library versions was more important than countless billions of man-hours. It's one of the more staggeringly wasteful decisions in history, in my opinion.
Those who advocate genocide deserve every protection afforded by law, and none afforded by common human decency.
This is also why the millions of people (including small children) currently using Raspberry Pis cannot possibly use it, it's too difficult for them, when we see them using it, we are dreaming or deceived by Descarte's evil demon: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/...
Sarcasm apart, I've used it as a desktop for about 10 years, it's become steadily easier over that period. We started a project for a housing estate (that's a 'project' for Americans, but it may be nicer) with about 20 older machines that we repurposed. Older people (therefore without some of these prejudices) used Linux, without really realising that they were not using the market standard.
I can see that a lot of commentary here will be Microsoft astro-turfing, so I won't both to reply to each one, but the above statement is nearly nonsense. Incidentally, I'm not a fanatic either, I keep a Windows laptop for music, because I still use Pro Tools. I must say, in terms of random problems (and I'm very careful about virus protection etc.) it is much more of a pain than my vintage 2006 tower running Linux Mint, usually due to driver problems and resultant BSOD episodes.
On y va, qui mal y pense!
If you need more examples, I have switched dozens of people from Windows to Linux. MOstly grandma types who are tired of the problems they have with Windows. And some folks who are more adroit, but likewise tired of the hassle.
And if you can't appreciate that the use cases for computer users worldwide is more than a dozen grandmas you've met, then I can't help you. Cognitive dissonance and all that...
And if you use this argument tactic, let us just remember that the issue isn't how many people I switched over, But it is however, that the people I swittched over had the shitz of Windows and now have almost zero issues with Linux Mint. You appear to be incapable of understanding that, my dear chachalaca, and have become wrapped around the axle of numbers, and fail to get the point. I do hope that it is purposeful trolling on your part, and that you do not actually believe that any numerical attributes from any one person somehow wins the argument. Mint is demonstrably easier to work with I've done that demonstration with many supposedlycomputer illiterate people, and with the advent of Windows 10, a lot more stable. If I were to attempt your strange numerical argument, I could say that your denial is but one case. But I wouldn't. Because that would be a dumb argument. Ciao, me chachalaca!
The shepherds did so well protecting the flock that the sheep no longer believed that wolves existed.
And if you use this argument tactic,
What tactic is that, quoting your own words back to you?
Oh dear cognitive dissident, it is you that seems to have missed the point, which is generally how cognitive dissonance plays out. You are so tied up defending your religion you failed to see the science
... and have become wrapped around the axle of numbers
Not numbers fool, use cases. You struggle to understand why people use Windows at the same time as failing to grasp the concept of different types of use cases. I even tried to spell it out and you still missed it.
It matters not, no amount of angry Linux fanboys will change the fact that Windows is more popular on the desktop because it is better at the fitting the requirements of most users most of the time.