Will Montana Become America's Third State To Ditch Daylight Savings Time? (missoulian.com)

"Okay...twice every year Slashdot disses Daylight savings time," writes turkeydance, bringing a story from Montana, where lawmakers are proposing that the state should stop setting their clocks forward by one hour every spring. Similar legislation in several past sessions...failed to advance even out of committee. But SB206 passed committee unanimously and once on the floor, more than twice as many senators voted for it as against it. Now the House will take up SB206 during the session's second half, and likely with a renewed focus on the history of daylight saving time and what it would mean for Montana to become only the third state in the country not to observe it.
Daylight savings time has been opposed by a grassroots group of Montana farmers and ranchers, who have to sync their work schedule to the sun rather than the time on the clock, but similar legislation has also been introduced in Texas, California, Iowa, New Mexico, Michigan, Rhode Island, Wisconsin, and Washington. Daylight savings time was originally introduced as an energy-saving measure during World Wars I and II, and returned during the 1970s energy crisis. There's just one problem, reports Live Science. "No one really knows whether daylight saving time saves energy at all. Research is decidedly mixed on the subject, with some studies actually finding that daylight saving time boosts energy consumption."

Comments

SAVING

[manicpop]

daylight saving time

Re:SAVING

[TokyoJimu]

Worth saving because I like having it be light outside until after 20:00 for as long as possible.

Re:SAVING

[The Real Dr John]

DST is biologically absurd. Earth time is based on an approximately 24 hr day, with seasonal shifts in the length of the day/night cycle based on latitude. Biological organisms synchronize with this cycle (termed circadian entrainment). Trying to shift that cycle by 1 hour artificially twice a year is counterproductive and harmful.

http://www.nejm.org/doi/full/1...

It is time (pun intended) to stop this nonsense.

Re: SAVING

[Anonymous Coward]

Depends where you live. Here it's still light at 23 bloody 00 at the end of June

Re:SAVING

[Anonymous Coward]

There's about fifty 20:00 you can choose from, what's the problem?

Re: SAVING

[ls671]

Here in Dawson City, the sun half sets and rises again in June so it is daylight 24/24.

Re: SAVING

[Anonymous Coward]

Which makes DST even more redundant. I lived in Fairbanks Alaska for a couple years, the Sun position is back to where it was "time" wise with-in two weeks of moving the clocks one hour because at this time of the year you're gaining 7 minutes of daylight per day.

Here in western WA, staying on standard time over summer would mean sun rises at something like 4am, which is a bit early, but it is nice to have daylight until around 10pm over summer - so I'd prefer to just stay on DST all the time.

Re:SAVING

[Anonymous Coward]

Worth saving because I like having it be light outside until after 20:00 for as long as possible.

Exactly right. Because the earth doesn't get the same amount of daylight all year round, DST makes perfect sense. Just get over it already and stop your bitching.

Daylight savings time has been opposed by a grassroots group of Montana farmers and ranchers, who have to sync their work schedule to the sun rather than the time on the clock

In which case, they just need to STFU because DST has absolutely no effect on them.

Re:SAVING

[BenFranske]

Yes. I know DST is incredibly unpopular on Slashdot and I can certainly understand why changing clocks is inconvenient and seems antiquated to the /. crowd. I don't care whether the sun is out while I'm at work/meetings/appointments but when I have free time in the evenings I would very much like it to still be light outside for as much of the year and as long as possible. If you hide in your house or never interact with others you may not care but for those of us who do need to interact with others it's nice to have off time when it's light out. This is especially important for those of us in northern latitudes in the spring and fall...

Re:SAVING

[clovis]

Also, DST is entirely useless at high latitudes and in equatorial zones.
DST also has less effect if you're located in the western side of the time zone as opposed to the eastern side.
That is to say, people on the western side of the time zone already have the sunset an hour later than people on the eastern side, so the "usefulness" of DST's effects depends greatly upon your latitude and longitude.

Re:SAVING

[skids]

I just prefer to drive home from work in daylght. So I'd rather have DST all the time than never.

Re:SAVING

[Anonymous Coward]

DST isn't unpopular here or anywhere. The biennial (also, semi-annual) time-change is.

This is also a place where you'll find a higher-than-average concentration of people who understand the math around time (and, on a greater scale, circles) and why time zones are a half-assed solution to the problems introduced by standardizing time for everyone. This is why UTC exists. Because if you're going to impose an inaccurate number on everyone, everywhere, you might as well simplify it to a single number instead of a constantly shifting set of 50-60 or so. No, it's not an easy 24, there are places where time zones are offset by 0:30 or 0:15 from surrounding areas. (Venezuela, Australia, India, and Iran seem to be the worst offenders for this.) Then there's dumb, regional shit like DST. It's a complete clusterfuck. But the answer is NOT to poke more regional holes in the clusterfuck, because that just makes it more of a clusterfuck. The answer is to say "fuck local clock-numbers, everything is UTC now."

It would take less than a year for people to get used to the new daylight hour-numbers.

Re:SAVING

[Anonymous Coward]

Yes but I think you are forgetting that Earth has 4 corner simultaneous 4-day TIME CUBE in only 24 hour rotation.

Re: SAVING

[Anonymous Coward]

I agree UTC would be so much easier. But then some countries still use their limbs to measure distances! >.

Re: SAVING

[corychristison]

As someone even more North than you (Canadian Prairies), it doesnt make any sense... sun is still down when most people go to work, and sun goes back down again before most people are done work.

Shifting it an hour really has no benefit when you only get 7 hours of daylight in the winter.

In the Summer it's polar opposite. Sun comes up between 5-6 am, sets around 10pm.

With that said, where I live, we don't have DST and I'm damn glad we don't.

It's largely a regional thing, based on where you are geographically. This is why generalized discussions about DST don't make sense. Everyone lives in different area's both on the horizontal and vertical axis.

In other words, your experience is not my experience. How about we quit arguing about it and get on with our lives?

Re: SAVING

[Anonymous Coward]

Less than a year? Clearly you are from a metric-using country.

Re: SAVING

[BenFranske]

I would actually agree that how much sense DST makes is very dependent on the latitude at which you live. To clarify, I would also agree DST does nothing to help with the winter and I wasn't saying it did, you simply couldn't shift the clock enough to make any substantial difference when it gets dark at 4:30.

In the summer if it's light where you live until 10pm it doesn't make much sense to have it be light until 11pm. A little further south though and it would be dark at 8pm standard time at the solstice, an extra hour would be nice. It's really the Spring and Fall which benefit the most in the northern US though, when whether is nice and you appreciate having that extra hour of daylight. For example, tonight it got dark at about 6pm. Tomorrow it will be very nice to have daylight until 7pm...

Re: SAVING

[Anonymous Coward]

Is Dawson City a cool place to live? Is Klondike Kate's a good place to eat? How good is your internet connection?

Re:SAVING

[Anonymous Coward]

That would fucking suck. That means every time I travel anywhere, I have to learn the hours and their correlation to where the sun is and readjust for each place. Trying to conduct international meetings and shit would be a nightmare.

Re: SAVING

[corychristison]

Seasons are relative, too.

We're in the middle of a snow storm. It was -30 deg C here today.

We generally get snow storms until the last week of May, sometimes into June.

Then summer (up to +45 deg C) until mid-late September and then we get crappy weather again.

Honestly time the sun rises and sets in the fall and spring doesn't matter when its too cold to be outside anyway.

Re:SAVING

[Z00L00K]

Just get to work early and you can leave early so you will get more daylight after work. When you work in an office you don't need daylight anyway so why let it go to waste?

Re: SAVING

[Z00L00K]

Which means that you live at about a measely 64 degrees North - and I understand what you talk about as I have lived at 67 degrees North. There are two seasons, mosquito-free and mosquitoes.

Re:SAVING

[thegarbz]

Trying to shift that cycle by 1 hour artificially twice a year is counterproductive and harmful.

Man are these people are not going cope if they have to get up early to make a meeting to work one day.

Re:SAVING

[Gussington]

DST is biologically absurd. Earth time is based on an approximately 24 hr day, with seasonal shifts in the length of the day/night cycle based on latitude. Biological organisms synchronize with this cycle (termed circadian entrainment). Trying to shift that cycle by 1 hour artificially twice a year is counterproductive and harmful.

Not as absurd as not shifting it.
The best option would be natural shifting of about a minute per week to match the seasons.
Second best option is a jarring shift of one hour twice a year.
Worst option is no change so the clocks are most out of sync with the sun

Re:SAVING

[Gussington]

Just get to work early and you can leave early so you will get more daylight after work.

And get all your friends to do it too. And all the shops, and the schools, and all the sports clubs, and... oh wait....

Re:SAVING

[reboot246]

I get off my job at 2:30 pm now. How much daylight do I need after work? Five hours? Six hours? No, and it will be dark for the first whole hour of work tomorrow morning and I'll just sit there doing nothing until the sun comes up because I work outside around people's houses. Wow, talk about productivity.

Re:SAVING

[The Real Dr John]

What benefit is there to DST? Name one single benefit. People are going to drive in the dark in the winter no matter what you do to the time on your clock. Either you drive in the dark in the morning, or in the evening. There are less than 8 hours of light in the beginning of winter, especially as you go further north or south toward the poles. Clearly the trend is to get rid of DST and I say good riddance.

Re:SAVING

[Anonymous Coward]

Trying to shift that cycle by 1 hour artificially twice a year is counterproductive and harmful.

Man are these people are not going cope if they have to get up early to make a meeting to work one day.

Fail troll is fail. Nothing you said actually counters what you quoted from The Real Dr John.

Re:SAVING

[nukenerd]

What benefit is there to DST? Name one single benefit.

More light time in the evening after work (during the months of DST time) to do outdoor jobs at home or do anything else outdoors. Sorry, that was two reasons; I'll stop there.

Re:SAVING

[nukenerd]

I know DST is incredibly unpopular on Slashdot and I can certainly understand why changing clocks is inconvenient and seems antiquated to the /. crowd....

Don't know why this is modded Troll, seems some fair points. DST is unpopular on /. because we have a high proportion of those who do not do much out of doors.

Re:SAVING

[The Real Dr John]

Get up earlier and stop messing with the clocks. Those are not reasons, those are poor excuses.

Re:SAVING

[Anonymous Coward]

What benefit is there to DST? Name one single benefit.

More light time in the evening after work (during the months of DST time) to do outdoor jobs at home or do anything else outdoors. Sorry, that was two reasons; I'll stop there.

So how does one do an outdoor job after work in Finland (for example)?

Note that the days in Finland are very short or non-existent in Winter. Driving to work and driving back after 8 hours can be in the complete dark both ways. It gets worse the further North you go past the arctic circle, where the day length's peak change is about 15 minutes per day.

Re:SAVING

[unixisc]

Also, DST is entirely useless at high latitudes and in equatorial zones. DST also has less effect if you're located in the western side of the time zone as opposed to the eastern side. That is to say, people on the western side of the time zone already have the sunset an hour later than people on the eastern side, so the "usefulness" of DST's effects depends greatly upon your latitude and longitude.

Solution to this could be a fuzzy logic approach, which would be that instead of having time zones defined by, among other things, political preferences, have time zones defined only by longitude, and that too, instead of by hourly or half hourly increments, have them increment by minute. In other words, every 4 degrees of longitude, it'll be a new time. In the old days, maintaining a clock would have been cumbersome, but since smartphones, computers and other time pieces are mostly online and can be geo-located, the exact local time at any spot can be determined by a combination of GPS and its reference to the NIST computer.

Take this approach, and you'll know the time. Like, since we are in a MT thread, let me use an example from there. There is a 10 degree difference in longitude b/w Billings and Kalispell. Calculating from 24 hours corresponding to 360 degrees, or 1 hr corresponding to 15 degrees, there would be a 40 minute time difference b/w those 2 towns, so that it won't be the same time in both places due to both of them being MST. And if one flies from one of them to the other, the phone's time will adjust automatically.

Re:SAVING

[paraax]

Daylight savings changes the clock during the summer, not during the winter. Arguments about use of sunlight during the winter misunderstand the nature of daylight savings time.

Re:SAVING

[Neuronwelder]

Could the business you work at give you flex-time for your coming in early? Just a thought.

Re:SAVING

[Gussington]

What benefit is there to DST? Name one single benefit.

I already did, it aligns the clock with the changes of daylight due to seasonal changes. It is crude and jarring, but it still closer to the natural cycle than not using DST. An improvement would be to gradually adjust the clock to the season rather than two big shifts each year.

People are going to drive in the dark in the winter no matter what you do to the time on your clock. Either you drive in the dark in the morning, or in the evening.

Some people do more with their lives than just drive around...

Re:SAVING

[Gussington]

Get up earlier and stop messing with the clocks.

I'm getting the impression you're about 85 and there's some kids on your lawn...

Those are not reasons, those are poor excuses.

Riiighttt.......

Re:SAVING

[The Real Dr John]

Closer to the natural cycle? You clearly have not thought this through. How is changing by 1 hour twice a year, in just two big jumps, anything like a natural cycle? Clock time is arbitrary, and making the time jump around is anything but a "natural cycle".

Re:SAVING

[The Real Dr John]

I'm guessing you are about 8 years old, and immature for your age.

Re:SAVING

[Aqualung812]

That's a cool idea, if you never have to meet anyone online.

Imagine trying to schedule a meeting with people where their start and end times for their meetings vary by 7 minutes, 13 minutes, 23 minutes, etc.

Perhaps you say "Well, schedule all meetings in UTC".

I'm down with that, but then, why would many people use solar time? Most people just want to know when the sun rises and sets, and that is also easily-provided information.

So, go UTC!

Re:SAVING

[Anonymous Coward]

I prefer DST - more time with kids outside.

Re:SAVING

[michael_wojcik]

That's easily fixed. Start your day earlier.

If a majority of people really, really, really feel they need the clocks set an hour ahead, that's easily fixed too. We set them ahead once, and then never change for DST again. There's no reason to "fall back" in the winter hours when many people end up rising before dawn and retiring after sunset.

We'll just permanently have the sun reach its apex around 13:00. The DST proponents will be satisfied, and rational people won't care.

Re:SAVING

[Gussington]

Closer to the natural cycle? You clearly have not thought this through. How is changing by 1 hour twice a year, in just two big jumps, anything like a natural cycle?

If you graph the hours of daylight throughout the year it would look like a stretched out sine wave. DST attempts to map this analog curve with a sampling frequency of twice per year. The Non-DST map has a sampling frequency of only once per year (ie a less accurate sampling rate). If we want clocks to more closely match nature, we need a higher sampling frequency, not less.

Clock time is arbitrary, and making the time jump around is anything but a "natural cycle".

A clock is not arbitrary, it is merely a low resolution map of the movement of the sun. It is inaccurate and clumsy, and DST is only slightly less worse. To improve this you would increase the resolution, not reduce it.

Re:SAVING

[unrtst]

IMO, if you're going to go that route, then take it to its logical conclusion (or damn near there). Set noon to high noon wherever you are. That way, you don't need GPS to know the time, and anyone can validate the current time once a day. Of course, every other system on earth would then start using UTC for coordinated time, which is what it's purpose is anyway, so that'd be a good side effect.

DST makes no sense. The largest proponents left seem to be farmers, which is the group it makes the least sense for... they should be shifting their time to start the day on regular basis to follow the time of sunrise/sunset/noon as needed for the thing they're working on. DST make that more difficult, not easier.

I can understand people wanting to retain timezones. If I move from one TZ to another, I don't want to have to relearn what time most people around me treat as lunch/dinner/bedtime/etc. It's convenient to have those timezone offsets. However, it's all ruined with DST, especially so when you have to cross the equator (a relative -2 hr for almost half the year, then -1 for a few weeks, then 0 for almost half the year, then -1, then -2 again).

In my ideal world:
* We have one counter of seconds (unix time) that does not count leap seconds
* We have TAI (international atomic time), a counter which includes leap seconds
* UTC, a timezone that respects leap seconds
* 24 standard timezones at 1 hour offsets from UTC. No more 15 or 30 minute offsets. No more daylight time. However, these can be applied as widely as one likes (ie. China can still pick just one timezone for the whole country if they like).

Re:SAVING

[unrtst]

That's a cool idea, if you never have to meet anyone online.

Imagine trying to schedule a meeting with people where their start and end times for their meetings vary by 7 minutes, 13 minutes, 23 minutes, etc.

Scheduling isn't really a problem...

The iCalendar/iCal format, and many others, already solved that. You pick your time to schedule the meeting. Your software knows your timezone information. It includes your timezone definitions in the schedule request (yes, this actually happens already). Others can easily use that to determine what that time means universally, and can then apply their own timezone definitions to determine what time that is in their own time.

Determining availability already requires shared availability information (ie. so you can see when they have stuff scheduled already, and vice-versa). Just asking, "when is good for everyone?", is already infeasible due to timezones and DST, unless you're all in the same location. If you're all in the same location, then all your clocks are and would be the same already either way.

I think there are loads of other problems that longitudinal timezones would introduce. I imagine it would make it quite difficult to keep a good grasp of times without computer assistance. For example, if I was going to go to the movies, and wanted to arrive by the showtime of 9pm movie-theatre-local-time, I might have to account for a 4 or 8 minute offset due to crossing a longitude, which could be inches from where I am (average distance of 1degree longitude is about 53 miles; 69 miles at equator; 53 at 40degrees; 0 at poles).

Re:SAVING

[The Real Dr John]

Are you claiming that human devised clock time is not an arbitrary scale in the sense that it is man-made, and could have been implemented many other ways? Clearly, if clock time was not arbitrary, then there would be no DST. That is another arbitrary convention. Mapping to a sign wave in two opposite jumps doesn't sound like any rational mapping to me. If you are going to do this, then all clocks must be able to auto-sync to a standard clock that shifts by seconds per day, accounting for longitude and latitude. A global time system that adjusts correctly, locally and everywhere.

Re:SAVING

[Gussington]

Are you claiming that human devised clock time is not an arbitrary scale in the sense that it is man-made, and could have been implemented many other ways?

It was specifically designed to match the rotation of the earth using units common at the time. That is not spin the bottle.

Mapping to a sign wave in two opposite jumps doesn't sound like any rational mapping to me.

It is how all digital sampling works and is quite rational, the only difference is how frequent you samples.

If you are going to do this, then all clocks must be able to auto-sync to a standard clock that shifts by seconds per day, accounting for longitude and latitude. A global time system that adjusts correctly, locally and everywhere.

Which was my original suggestion. Up until 20 years ago this was not feasible, so we are stuck with a low tech sampling frequency. There is no technical reason we couldn't release a DST v2 that was sampled 12 times a year or even 52 to closer match the natural cycle. NTP is already widely used in networks all over the world, there is no reason in the age of IOT we can't make this a new standard.

Re:SAVING

[The Real Dr John]

"It was specifically designed to match the rotation of the earth using units common at the time. That is not spin the bottle"

Designed by God or nature? Oh, you mean made up by people. So it is one of many possible human time systems, and not a natural system. There could be 12 hours a day, or 48. So that is arbitrary, and artificial. DST is another artificial, arbitrary aspect of that human invented system. And it does not mesh well with the recipients of the system, namely humans, who's circadian clocks don't like time jumping around by an hour twice a year.

Re:SAVING

[Aqualung812]

The iCalendar/iCal format, and many others, already solved that

How do they solve the inconsistent start times?

Let's say I want to meet right when I start my day, at 8:00am solar time. I'm going to have a 30 minute meeting with people in 3 other places.
Person A accepts my invite, and they get a meeting start time of 7:47am solar. They're cool, so they start 13 minutes early.
Person B gets 10:11am solar. They'll have to leave 11 minutes early, because they have a 10:30am solar meeting.
Person C gets 1:29pm solar, and they can only stay for 5 minutes before running to another invite they got at 1:34pm.

The point is that even with calendaring software, having set start times in 15 minute intervals eliminates a lot of overlap that happens when you do meetings starting at any 1 of 60 minutes.

It is hard enough to find a meeting with everyone starting at 15 minutes after the hour. I would likely never get a meeting if we all started a different times.

Re:SAVING

[unrtst]

When you compare availability information from the perspective attendees, find a block that is open on all and squeeze it in there so it doesn't overlap anyone elses schedules. Your scheduling software should even assist with that with ease.

To make things more human friendly, you can do the 15minute blocks thing, and base it on UTC. Almost all timezones would get slightly odd starting/ending offsets, but they'd be consistent.

FWIW, I don't think any of this means that the longitudinal based timezone offsets are a good idea. I just think the scheduling system is one of the few parts that is already updated to handle this (for the most part). There are already timezones with 30 minute and 45 minute offsets from GMT:
https://www.timeanddate.com/ti...
If you don't have to deal with people in those, that's great (certainly makes things easier to follow), but no one should be assuming that everyone is currently at even 1hr offsets from GMT right now.

Re:SAVING

[Aqualung812]

To make things more human friendly, you can do the 15minute blocks thing, and base it on UTC.

That's my point from the start.

Once you realize that in order to have blocks of time available for everyone to come together, you've accepted work meetings are best done in UTC, and personal time done in solar time if you wish.

I've worked in exactly one business that did everything in UTC, and it was awesome.

Re:SAVING

[Gussington]

Designed by God or nature? Oh, you mean made up by people. So it is one of many possible human time systems, and not a natural system. There could be 12 hours a day, or 48. So that is arbitrary, and artificial. DST is another artificial, arbitrary aspect of that human invented system. And it does not mesh well with the recipients of the system, namely humans, who's circadian clocks don't like time jumping around by an hour twice a year.

Righto so your definition of arbitrary is "made by humans". What an interesting world you must live in...

Re:SAVING

[The Real Dr John]

How do you explain that there are 24 hours in a day, rather than 12 time periods that are each twice as long? Are you saying that is not arbitrary? Maybe you think money is a natural phenomenon and the dollar is not arbitrary. Yes, man made conventions are arbitrary as to the specifics. You only mean it is not arbitrary because it has to somehow reflect the underlying natural phenomenon being modeled or mapped. And if you don't think DST is arbitrary, then you should look up the definition.

Re:SAVING

[Gussington]

How do you explain that there are 24 hours in a day,

http://lmfgtfy.com/?q=origin+o...

Are you saying that is not arbitrary?

Oh dear you aren't very good at this game are you?
http://lmfgtfy.com/?q=what+doe...
To quote "based on random choice or personal whim, rather than any reason or system".

So based on what we both now know, that the 24 hours clock was based on some reasoning or system, then no it isn't arbitrary (see how that works now?)

And if you don't think DST is arbitrary, then you should look up the definition.

I did. Now it's your turn...

Re:SAVING

[The Real Dr John]

You still have not said why there are 24 hours in a day, instead of some other possible number from among the many possible time systems that people could have come up with. Our specific system is one of many possible systems. I note that you chose the definition of arbitrary that fits your simple preconceived notions. Here is another:

"subject to individual will or judgment without restriction; contingent solely upon one's discretion:"

Now explain how 24 hours as opposed to 12 hours that are twice as long does not fit that definition?

You seem to think that you have thought this through, when you clearly have not at all. When I say arbitrary, I don't mean that it does not conform to rules, it is just that it is one possible system among many that could be used in its place. It is a human devised convention, not a law of nature. If you can't get that, then I can't reason with you.

Re:SAVING

[The Real Dr John]

And while we are at it, explain why we have AM and PM. Wouldn't it be more logical to have 12 hours a day (twice as long), and no AM/PM distinction? Now if you can show that this is not just making up a rule without any reason based on the natural system, then you have failed to make your point. Why do we have to designate that it is 1 am or 1 pm? I would not have made a system like that. Would you? Think.

Face it, the system is one of many that could have been devised, and this one was chosen for arbitrary reasons based on the people who designed it.

If you can stand it, take a look at this:

"As a rational policy, daylight saving time may be ineffective. But as a social ritual, it retains real value. Our biannual clock-tuning is a slip of the mask, a glitch in the matrix that reminds us that clock time is always artificial and arbitrary."

Link:

https://www.washingtonpost.com...

Re:SAVING

[The Real Dr John]

I take your lack of response as an admission that you were wrong.

Re:SAVING

[Gussington]

You still have not said why there are 24 hours in a day

I sent you the links, if you don't read them I can't help you.

Re:SAVING

[Gussington]

I take your lack of response as an admission that you were wrong.

Thanks for taking the effort to share that. That really added value to the discussion...

Re:SAVING

[The Real Dr John]

The link you sent said nothing about our time system not being an arbitrary scale. I sent you a link, that you apparently did not read. Why AM and PM? Why not just 12 hours that are twice as long? Your link says nothing about that. How about you find me a link to a good source that says there is nothing arbitrary about our time system of 24 hours a day?

Re:SAVING

[The Real Dr John]

Look, you are the one who started in with the "you aren't very good at this are you?" comments. Or was that supposed to add value to the discussion? Clearly you are not as good at it as you thought, and the Dunning Kruger effect was quite evident. Then you decided to go after my use of the term arbitrary, when in fact that was the correct word to use. Much of what you said was not adding value to the discussion. And you know that the idea of making all clocks auto-synchronize just isn't going to happen any time soon. So we are back to the usefulness of a 1 hour, arbitrary, time shift twice a year. As a biologist who started out in circadian biology: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/p... I find DST to be very arbitrary and counterproductive considering it even leads to increased heart attacks and traffic accidents. But crudely matching sine waves is so cool! Right?

Re:SAVING

[Gussington]

Then you decided to go after my use of the term arbitrary, when in fact that was the correct word to use.

If you don't understand English then this discussion is pointless...

Re:SAVING

[The Real Dr John]

I sent you a link where it was clearly stated that our time system is arbitrary. I also sent you another definition of arbitrary that fits perfectly. So I have to assume you're just yanking my chain now. You lost the debate after your snarky comment about me not being good at this. I actually know something about circadian biology, you obviously don't. Dunning-Kruger.

Could have mentioned the other two

[I'm New Around Here]

Rather than make everyone google it.

I know Hawaii doesn't use Daylight Savings Time. When I was there, we had to remember that twice a year our contacts on the mainland had different office hours compared to ours.

Re:Could have mentioned the other two

[TWX]

Arizona other than either the Navajo or Hopi reservation does not have DST.

Last I recall, a few counties in SW Indiana also did not have DST, but I haven't exactly kept up to know if they're still that way or not.

Honestly I'm not sure what DST is supposed to do besides screw with sleep schedules.

Re:Could have mentioned the other two

[Anonymous Coward]

Arizona other than either the Navajo or Hopi reservation does not have DST.

Nope, just the Navajo. The Hopi Reservation (inside the Navajo one) does not.

Last I recall, a few counties in SW Indiana also did not have DST, but I haven't exactly kept up to know if they're still that way or not.

Actually, it is Northwest (near Chicago) and Southwest (near Evansville) that are on CST, but no, they all observe DST now.

Honestly I'm not sure what DST is supposed to do besides screw with sleep schedules.

Adjust's people's daily schedules, which is more and more time reliant these days.

Same reason we have time zones really.

Re: Could have mentioned the other two

[slaker]

The Indiana exception isn't about DST but that some parts are on Central rather than Eastern time. As somebody who lives about 15 minutes from that border, it's pretty aggravating and causes way too many problems for us but we still forget and assume everyone is the same time we are.

Re:Could have mentioned the other two

[FrankSchwab]

The counties in Indiana switched over to DST ten years or so ago. They provided a unique opportunity to study whether or not DST saves energy, because they were located in and amongst counties that already used DST. As a result, you could correlate energy usage before and after the switch in both areas. That study showed a slight rise in annual energy usage with the switch to DST.

Re: Could have mentioned the other two

[BenFranske]

IIRC there used to be a difference in observing DST as well so a few counties were always on central time, most were on Eastern time, but in the summer most of them did not observe DST so they were in sync with the central time zone counties that DID observe DST, effectively changing the timezone of the state from the perspective of those of us who do observe DST..

Re:Could have mentioned the other two

[quenda]

I know Hawaii doesn't use Daylight Savings Time.

Being tropical, it would be ridiculous.

Why can't other states just legislate to change standard business hours so people work earlier in summer? That would make a lot more sense.

Re:Could have mentioned the other two

[jpaine619]

You obviously haven't checked in a long time. A state can opt-out but it has to be the whole state. It is no longer legal to do it on a county-by-county basis. This has been the case for many years now. Where the fed's got the authority to dictate this all-or-nothing is beyond me, but they do it.. Prob threaten states with funds or something....

Re:Could have mentioned the other two

[Plus1Entropy]

Arizona does not do DST. The Navajo reservation, inside Arizona, does DST. The Hopi reservation, inside the Navajo reservation, does not do DST.

There is a 100 mile stretch in Arizona which, depending on when you traverse it, may require 7 clock changes.

Re:Could have mentioned the other two

[Anonymous Coward]

I am guessing this path is a road that winds in and out of the various reservations multiple times? Because otherwise I only count 4. Starting in Arizona, enter the Navajo Reservation (1), enter the Hopi Reservation (2), exit the Hopi Reservation back into the Navajo Reservation (3), exit the Navajo Reservation back into Arizona (4).

Re:Could have mentioned the other two

[TWX]

I'm thinking that the borders with Utah and New Mexico could play a role too.

Time Marches On.

[zenlessyank]

And time says it is time to kill DST.

More Useful Daylight in Summer

[Lawrence_Bird]

All that matters is we get some extra daylight after work during the warm time of year so we can enjoy it. Is it a little darker in the morning that first month? Small price to pay. To alleviate the supposed "stress" of the one hour change, do it on Sat. instead of Sun. But honestly, are people dropping dead flying across a one hour time zone change?

Re:More Useful Daylight in Summer

[93 Escort Wagon]

I like daylight saving for this exact reason - more daylight after work (and no, I can't just change my work schedule to give myself more daylight time in the evenings).

I'd be fine with just settling on daylight savings time year round... no more "spring forward, fall back". I live in Washington state, so during winter it's going to be dark when I'm going to work and when I'm coming home anyway...

Heck, what I'd really like is the idea the Car Talk guys threw out there many years ago - "Double Dutch Daylight Savings", meaning the clocks would be adjusted by two hours. Do that, and do it year round.

Re:More Useful Daylight in Summer

[tomhath]

If that was the reason, we would change the clocks in May and September. The real reason is because merchants want people to go shopping after work.

Re:More Useful Daylight in Summer

[ColdWetDog]

Well, the various studies in TFA and elsewhere have always managed to show a weak association with DST and various ills (death, dismemberment, hemorrhoids). The values are typically small which makes me discount much of a causal association. Having the entire country do 10 jumping jacks on some random Saturday would probably cause similar mayhem.

It's just a pain in the ass for no good reason (like hemorrhoids).

Re:More Useful Daylight in Summer

[PPH]

are people dropping dead

Yes they are.

Re:More Useful Daylight in Summer

[Hognoxious]

It's one of those things that brings out the nutters, along with vaccination and water fluoridation. It's mostly the same nutters in all cases.

As to your last point, I wouldn't be surprised if the F-22's avionics have a problem.

Re:More Useful Daylight in Summer

[Anonymous Coward]

Fuck that. We don't have it in Arizona and we don't care. You have plenty of daylight in the summer without changing the clocks.

It's nonsense. End it. For good.

Re: More Useful Daylight in Summer

[Anonymous Coward]

Obviously the guy who came up with DST, had his IQ reduced by fluoridated water & autism from vaccines.

Re: More Useful Daylight in Summer

[ASDFnz]

Obviously the guy who came up with DST, had his IQ reduced by fluoridated water & autism from vaccines.

Benjamin Franklin? I am fairly sure that fluoridated water and vaccines had not been invented yet.

Re:More Useful Daylight in Summer

[Aighearach]

If it is actually true that these Montana farmers work by the clock of the Sun, instead of the wall clock, then they still have the exact same number of daylight hours after work either way and having daylight saving time or not doesn't even affect them.

Maybe people should just stop being afraid of the dark?

Re:More Useful Daylight in Summer

[Aighearach]

If you can't adjust your schedule now, and they moved the clocks year round (one or two, doesn't matter) your schedule would just get moved by the same amount of time, for whatever reasons they have it set where it is now. It only works now because of the difference, because people want to have the numbers on their schedule be the same year round. It would just get lowest-common-denominatored into what it is right now without daylight saving time.

Re:More Useful Daylight in Summer

[ls671]

I like daylight saving for this exact reason - more daylight after work (and no, I can't just change my work schedule to give myself more daylight time in the evenings).

I'd be fine with just settling on daylight savings time year round... no more "spring forward, fall back". I live in Washington state, so during winter it's going to be dark when I'm going to work and when I'm coming home anyway...

But... but... think of the children! They usually get young kids home from school before dark...

Re: More Useful Daylight in Summer

[Anonymous Coward]

Yes people are actually dying as a result. It's a very, very small amount of people but it happens. Here's the bottom line asshole. More people than you might think have sleep issues and forcing those who have enough trouble sleeping as it is to go through even more BS twice a year for no good reason is selfish bullshit. I live in Michigan. I have to be to work at 8 AM and get out at 5 PM. Come late December it's dark when I go to work and dark when I get out so who gives a fuck? Pick standard time or daylight savings time and stick with it. Changing twice a year for no good reason is fucking stupid.

Re:More Useful Daylight in Summer

[Anonymous Coward]

> All that matters is we get some extra daylight after work during the warm time of year so we can enjoy it.

So set the UTC offset to give you that extra daylight after work during the warm time of the year so you can enjoy it... and never change it again.

This isn't rocket science. Pick the nicest UTC offset and stick with it, don't pick _two_ and flip flop between them.

Re:More Useful Daylight in Summer

[BenFranske]

I assume you're being sarcastic, but just to clarify if you live in a norther latitude you get over this idea pretty quickly. No matter how much the clock gets adjusted it's going to either be dark when the children leave or when the get home (maybe both!) and there's nothing you can do about it. You may as well try to get as much evening daylight as possible, which is why I like DST.

Re: More Useful Daylight in Summer

[93 Escort Wagon]

Benjamin Franklin? I am fairly sure that fluoridated water and vaccines had not been invented yet.

That's just what the Freemasons WANT you to think...

Re:More Useful Daylight in Summer

[Cyberax]

The problem is that it also gets very dark during early morning in Autumn. It's not as bad if you live in Florida but up here in Washington it's really noticeable.

Re: More Useful Daylight in Summer

[Anonymous Coward]

I'm straining to make the association from DST to jumping jacks, which could cause hemorrhoids.

Re: More Useful Daylight in Summer

[berberine]

Benjamin Franklin was an advocate of vaccines. http://www.nytimes.com/2011/03...

Re:More Useful Daylight in Summer

[pixelpusher220]

Darker mornings mean kids are on the streets in the dark. That's the reality of today.

Now, there is some push to move the school day later so if that happens then there really is no downside.

Re:More Useful Daylight in Summer

[Imrik]

The farmers work by the sun, their machines work by the clock. For some farmers it may take most of the day to adjust the scheduling on all the machines they use.

Re: More Useful Daylight in Summer

[mrbester]

Then maybe he had mercury poisoning...

Re:More Useful Daylight in Summer

[Anonymous Coward]

I like daylight saving for this exact reason - more daylight after work (and no, I can't just change my work schedule to give myself more daylight time in the evenings).

Why does daylight matter? We've invented the lightbulb after all.

Re:More Useful Daylight in Summer

[93 Escort Wagon]

Why does daylight matter? We've invented the lightbulb after all.

Some of us like to be outdoors in the evenings; and it's hard to garden or mow the lawn by light bulb.

Re: More Useful Daylight in Summer

[michael_wojcik]

Franklin did not invent DST. He published a satire (so semi-serious) suggestion that French citizens be encouraged to rise earlier during summer months.

There are a couple of claimants to the invention of DST, because - as is usually the case - it was invented more than once, independently. That wasn't until around the turn of the 20th century, though, because the idea doesn't make sense until you have coordinated time in a sufficiently large political region.

The arguments for DST made some sense before electric lighting, and possibly even a little until the widespread use of air conditioning. Now they're rubbish, except for the egoist "well, I like it, and I can't change my schedule unless the government mandates it" stuff you'll see from the pro-DSTers in discussions like this. (Hey, I'd like it if there were fewer stupid reality shows on television, and I didn't have to hear a lot of crap about the Stuporbowl every year - but I don't want the government to legislate those changes.)

Re: More Useful Daylight in Summer

[michael_wojcik]

I live in Michigan. I have to be to work at 8 AM and get out at 5 PM. Come late December it's dark when I go to work and dark when I get out so who gives a fuck?

Alas, the fucks are given by Michigan's own genius Congressional rep Fred Upton, one of the main proponents of DST and its expansion a few years back.

Massachusetts' Ed Markey was the other rocket scientist behind that one, though of course all their fellow idiots who voted in favor of it share some of the blame. There's a worrisome correlation between states I've lived in that have names starting with "M" and DST proponents. Just to be safe, I'm staying out of Montana until this is over.

Re:More Useful Daylight in Summer

[michael_wojcik]

So what? In Michigan, at roughly the same latitude, keeping the DST offset wouldn't make much difference. If you live in Detroit and get up at 7 AM, you're getting up before dawn on the day DST ends and every day thereafter until March (specifically 6 March, this year).

Keeping the offset would cost you less than a week of rising after the dawn.

Yes, dawn isn't the whole story, and not everyone gets up at 7AM. Some get up later; many get up earlier. In any case, though, the "it's dark in the morning" argument for falling back is pretty damn weak.

(If you want to look at sunrise times in your neck of the woods, try this.)

Re:More Useful Daylight in Summer

[michael_wojcik]

Darker mornings mean kids are on the streets in the dark. That's the reality of today.

It's been the reality since streets were invented. And it used to be far more common for kids to walk to school - I walked to school from 2nd through 8th grade, through a small, densely-populated city, to schools that were nearly a mile away.[1] What's your point?

[1] Yes, in the snow, when there was some, but not enough to cancel classes. Yes, there were hills. It was quite pleasant, actually. We'd all be better off if we lived in a less dangerist[2] society and kids still walked to school.

[2] Beware Dangerism!

Re:More Useful Daylight in Summer

[Anonymous Coward]

I like it to get dark early, because she thinks my tractor's sexy!

Re:More Useful Daylight in Summer

[david_thornley]

But doesn't that bright circle in the blue ceiling burn?

Re:More Useful Daylight in Summer

[pixelpusher220]

What's my point? That kids shouldn't have to die so we get more daytime hours after work?

yes kids used to walk to school all the time. Up hill both ways even. Mortality was higher back then too.

It more dangerous for kids to be out in the dark of mornings than when it's light out. Do you disagree with that?

Re:More Useful Daylight in Summer

[knorthern knight]

You are a fucking idiot to even compare the two because you obviously don't understand the difference. But being from Arizona, I am sure you understand idiocy all too well.

***Don't you have another Nazi rally to attend?***

Are you aware, that it was Kaiser Wilhelm II (head of the *SECOND* Reich) who first implemented DST?

Re:More Useful Daylight in Summer

[Green Salad]

The bright circle at night is a summer-only phenomenon. As everyone from Seattle can plainly see, the ceiling is light mottled gray in the daytime and dark mottled gray at night.

Re:More Useful Daylight in Summer

[michael_wojcik]

It more dangerous for kids to be out in the dark of mornings than when it's light out. Do you disagree with that?

Yes, until you provide some reliable evidence showing a meaningful correlation, controlled for other variables.

Indiana Adapted it in 2006

[retroworks]

We should ask VP Pence if it was a mistake. https://www.scientificamerican... I seriously doubt it's saving anything.

Re:Indiana Adapted it in 2006

[Patent Lover]

Actually we should ask VP Pence why he thinks there should be gay conversion therapy. The world wonders.

Re: Indiana Adapted it in 2006

[Anonymous Coward]

Do you also deny climate change?

Re:Indiana Adapted it in 2006

[Anonymous Coward]

Indiana adopted it not because it saves energy, but because Indiana was surrounded by daylight saving time users, and many common folk were confused. So much so that TV stations time-delayed shows to give them the "correct" time, and relatives of mine were constantly confused by whether we were an hour ahead or behind them.

Re:Indiana Adapted it in 2006

[Streetlight]

IIRC, in the past wasn't DST a county option in Indiana? Depending on where you were while moving around you never knew what time it was.

Re: Indiana Adapted it in 2006

[Anonymous Coward]

We should also ask the VP why he and other so called Christians are so sexually repressed that they believe that every woman who wants to experience an orgasm should have a baby as a result. Just because you've decided to sexually repress yourself doesn't mean that you should force your own misery and guilt on others. Fucking is fun and not every ejaculation or orgasm deserves a name.

Re:Indiana Adapted it in 2006

[Anonymous Coward]

Actually we should ask them why we fill out taxes for them to reject things because some number is wrong. THEY know the right numbers...

But yeah lets ask them about trivia.

Re:Indiana Adapted it in 2006

[michael_wojcik]

To be fair, Pence wasn't governor when Indiana made the change. It was Mitch Daniels, who's now busy fucking up Purdue.

DST all year long!

[Anonymous Coward]

I would like to have daylight savings time all year. I like the extra hour of daylight in the evening, and I don't care if it's dark when I get up. I'm miserable in the morning regardless.

Re:DST all year long!

[Anonymous Coward]

This. A thousand times this. In the summer, twilight here begins just after 5 AM. If we had Standard time all year long, twilight would be just after 4 and the Sun would be full up just after 5 AM. WTF? Birds actually seem to have an ability to sing before twilight too, like about half an hour or more. They just know. That's all I need is to hear birdsong at 3 AM. It's odd enough with all that extra daylight in the bloody morning already, and the 5 PM sunsets we get around here in the winter SUCK. DUMP STANDARD TIME, NOT DST!!!! Give us a reasonable 6 PM sunset in the Winter, for fucking out loud, you cunts. It's so depressing I string Christmas lights up inside the house for most of the Winter. Oh, and I'm firing the wood stove in the living room just to stay warm too. If the cold weather is marginal I could dive under a blanket more often without starting my stove.

Industrial Window Cover Complex Conspiracy

[Anonymous Coward]

Daylight savings was brought about to promote curtain fading and generate revenue for this secretive but powerful industry.

People are going to be upset

[phantomfive]

People are going to be upset when they realize that they will lose an hour of sun in the summer evenings, instead of gaining an hour of sun in the winter evenings.

Re: People are going to be upset

[Anonymous Coward]

It's worth it. Around here even with the change It's dark by 5:30 in the winter. And it's light until like 9 during the summer.

I have to assume that the idiots enjoying the change are either unemployed or Southerners.

Re: People are going to be upset

[Anonymous Coward]

The change to DST is in the summer.

Re: People are going to be upset

[phantomfive]

Around here even with the change It's dark by 5:30 in the winter.

It's still going to be dark at 5:30 in the winter, mate.

Re:People are going to be upset

[markabq]

I wouldn't be, but apparently I'm one of only a very few people who think it should be dark at night.

Re:People are going to be upset

[Anonymous Coward]

Well, yes. The rest of the world thinks of you as a pedophile and a rapist. So of course it should be dark so you can practice your craft.

Still upside down from the 2006 & 2007 changes

[Anonymous Coward]

Still have not made up the energy savings that the 2007 extensions were to provide. Additionally, the data centre in Indiana that we had to deal with in 2005 and 2006 when the state decided to adopt daylight savings / summer time.

Convincing management that systems could not just be changed to America/New_York took man-months of discussion.

The "energy savings" angle needs to be ignored as a benefit, because it takes significant energy to make these adjustments. If things are going to be changed, consider two time-zones for the lower 48: https://qz.com/142199/the-us-needs-to-retire-daylight-savings-and-just-have-two-time-zones-one-hour-apart/

This again?

[BradleyUffner]

This twice annual ritual of suggesting we get rid of Daylight Saving Time is more annoying that actually changing the clocks.

Just the opposite.

[Anonymous Coward]

I would love DST year round. I hate it when it gets dark early. I know many people who feel this way. Abandoning DST would make it worse.

Re: Just the opposite.

[Anonymous Coward]

Agreed. We shouldn't get rid of DST, we should make it the new standard time.

Re:Just the opposite.

[Anonymous Coward]

What does "gets dark early" even mean? It gets dark when it gets dark. The problem is in your head and what you need is to shift your expectations. Replace the feeling you have when I tell you "6pm" with the feeling you have when I tell you "7pm", and so on. Once you have succeeded in shifting what feels early and what feels late by 1 hour, you will feel that it gets dark just right.

Marketing

[wap3com]

from what I know about the current usage it was done by marketing as people are more apt to shop on the home if is it not dark.
The farmers have a point, the sun is up/down on its rhythm - not ours - for the same amount of time twice each year on that day.

Don't forget fall

[Anonymous Coward]

Montana, where lawmakers are proposing that the state should stop setting their clocks forward by one hour every spring.

If you only get rid of setting the clocks forward in spring, without getting rid of setting the clocks back in fall, you're gonna have serious problems after a couple years.

Daylight Saving Time, not Savings

[steelshadow]

I just wish everyone would say it correctly - "Daylight Saving Time". It's not "Savings". I know I should expect the editors to get it correct in the post subject line but hey, it's Slashdot.

Re:Daylight Saving Time, not Savings

[Aighearach]

I remember way back when, before the whippersnappers ruined it, when slashdot was the one place where everybody read the glossary. If I could find my meds I'd go chase them off the lawn!

Re: Daylight Saving Time, not Savings

[Anonymous Coward]

Daylight's Saving Time

I agree!!!

[FudRucker]

abandon daylight savings time, i propose this one last time set the clocks forward 30 minutes, and then leave it right there in the autumn, it splits the difference between and hour forward in the spring and an hour back in the autumn, by splitting the difference at 30 minutes it is a good balance between the two

Re: Still upside down from the 2006 & 2007 cha

[Miamicanes]

Two timezones would suck, but three would make more sense... eastern = utc+4.5, central = utc+5.5, and Pacific=utc+7. Basically, splitting the difference for eastern & central, and making dst year-round in pacific. SoCal has ABSURDLY early sunrise & sunset compared to the east coast.

Re: Still upside down from the 2006 & 2007 ch

[Miamicanes]

^--- argh, I meant utc-4.5/-5.5/-7

daylight saving time is not CUBIC!

[clovis]

CREATION IS CUBIC, but
you are educated singularity
stupid by academic bastards.
Greenwich 1 day time is evil.
I know that you possess the
mind to think that there are 4
simultaneous 24 hour days
within a single Earth rotation,
I think that you are just evil.
Can you explain the 4 days
rather than the 1 day taught?
If not, you are truely stupid.
To ignore the 4 days, is evil.

Re:daylight saving time is not CUBIC!

[Anonymous Coward]

Well, that's as good an argument for DST as any.

Everyone keeps geting it backwards

[Narcocide]

Daylight Savings Time is good. We need to stop turning it off in the winter.

Re: Everyone keeps geting it backwards

[Anonymous Coward]

I don't give a shit one way or anotherâ, just as long as we.stop changing the clocks.

Re:Everyone keeps geting it backwards

[Anonymous Coward]

Then what you really want is just to change which tone zone you're in.

Re:Everyone keeps geting it backwards

[TeknoHog]

Daylight Savings Time is good. We need to stop turning it off in the winter.

But then you will have noon at 1pm every day, and midnight at 1 am. That's the silly bit about trying to redefine time, which used to have some connection to natural cycles. If you throw away that connection, you might as well rename things from A o'clock to Z o'clock.

I agree we should keep the same time all year, just like we should keep the same definitions for other physical measurements (think of making the meter shorter in the winter). But if you want DST all year, then what you really want is a shift in work hours etc. in relation to natural cycles. That is something you can fix without ruining time itself.

Also, if some people just want to go to work earlier than others, they should find a job that allows such a thing, instead of mandating such a shift for everyone. Moreover, if you're an early bird, do you really need to get to work first thing in the morning, or can you just wake up early and do other useful things before work?

Re:Everyone keeps geting it backwards

[StormReaver]

I don't think the timing itself is what everyone complains about. I think it's the constant switching of the timing that pisses people off. Most of the complainers (including me) want to just pick a time and stick with it.

Re:Everyone keeps geting it backwards

[Razed By TV]

But then you will have noon at 1pm every day, and midnight at 1 am.

We already have noon at 1pm and midnight at 1 am for 8 months of the year.

But if you want DST all year, then what you really want is a shift in work hours etc. in relation to natural cycles. That is something you can fix without ruining time itself.

That sounds easier said than done. Do we tie schedules to sunrise? "I work for 8 hours, 90 minutes after sunrise." "Do you want to catch a movie at 10 hours after sunrise?"
Variable work schedule? "I work 8 hours a day on the equinox, 6 hours on the winter solstice, and 11 hours on the summer solstice."

Re:Everyone keeps geting it backwards

[TechnoJoe]

Russia tried this, and it's a bad idea. Getting up in the dark has a deep effect on people psychological condition. After a year, they switch to standard time and haven't looked back.

Re:Everyone keeps geting it backwards

[michael_wojcik]

Then what you really want is just to change which [time] zone you're in.

Obviously that doesn't help, since the pro-DSTers want to change the delta between local and astronomical time. Changing time zones changes local time.

On the other hand, if a DST fan lives close to the eastern edge of their time zone, they should just move to the western edge. That's nearly an hour's difference right there, obviously.

We know that Daylight Savings wastes energy

[jader3rd]

We know that Daylight Savings wastes energy. Daylight Savings exists, because US Senators took note of how they were able to play more golf when Daylight Savings existed, and so re-established it to avoid spending time with their wives.

Re:We know that Daylight Savings wastes energy

[avgapon]

And most of the European countries must be obeying the US Senators, if we were to agree with your reasoning.

Re:We know that Daylight Savings wastes energy

[Cro Magnon]

European government officials play golf and have wives too.

As a Montanan and long-time Slashdotter...

[lannocc]

All I can say is the future looks bright no matter what my clock says. It's 6:30pm and nearly dark outside, there is snow on the ground, and later tonight it's time to set the clocks forward. Is it Spring already? Just another reminder of the years going by! I'm still working on my Web Shell Java/XML Framework; any help on IOVAR is appreciated.

As to the local time: my first instinct is to say I hope we don't change the law at this point. Best to continue to practice Daylight Savings Time like our neighboring states in order to ease confusion, although I am in favor of abolishment on a larger scale.

Indiana

[bigdavex]

I live in Indiana. We started doing this madness only recently. There's no good reason.

Possibly Colorado also

[cruff]

A local newscast reported earlier this week that a measure to place a ballot issue for the Colorado voters to do away with daylight saving time is shortly to be introduced (or has been by now) to the Colorado Legislature.

Re:Possibly Colorado also

[ColdWetDog]

Everybody will be too stoned to notice.

Re:Savings.

[Anonymous Coward]

OK, tard. Keep on tarding.

For the Love of God and all that is Holy

[Anonymous Coward]

Can we stop with the daylight savings time bullshit? Pick standard time or daylight savings time and stick with it. Jesus H. Christ on a bicycle. Enough already. If Trump can make that happen I'll vote for him next time around on that issue alone.

I'm all for 1 standard, but...

[ddtmm]

I think what is now DST should be the standard all year round. It gives better daylight time all year and we wouldn't have to deal with complete darkness at 5PM in winter. So what if the sun is over our heads at 1PM instead of 12PM. I don'e know about you but 12PM is not the halfway point in my day. Most people get up way after the sun's been up but stay up many hours after the sun's gone down. Adopting what is DST now as the standard all year would be perfect.

Re: I'm all for 1 standard, but...

[Anonymous Coward]

Depends where you live. Solar noon is close to 2 pm here during DST. Utterly stupid.

Permanent DST would mean sunrise at 10 am in December. Again, utterly stupid

Re:I'm all for 1 standard, but...

[Anonymous Coward]

So you're saying that DST is good because it tricks people into thinking that they get up late and stay up late while in fact they are getting up early? That's low. Do you enjoy tricking other people? Is that the real reason you want year-round DST?

Re: I'm all for 1 standard, but...

[Anonymous Coward]

DST year around is what I've been in favor of for years.

Since I cannot change the hours I'm working, I'd like to change what it corresponds to astronomically and have more sunlight after I'm off work rather than when I'm getting ready for work. I don't care if noon clock time doesn't match up with noon astro time, does it really matter much?

I don't care if the sunrise wouldn't be until after 9:00a for where I live for some of the year, hell that would be the first time some people ever are awake to see a sunrise. Right now during December the sun rises I'm already at work, the sunsets I'm still at work.

Re:I'm all for 1 standard, but...

[bigdavex]

The sun being over our heads is the definition of noon.

Large pizzas are often 14 inches. People like lots of pizza. So let's make inches slightly larger so that we get more pizza.

Yeah, it's that stupid.

Re:I'm all for 1 standard, but...

[Anonymous Coward]

That's why time zones are divided into seconds instead of something stupid like hours.

Re: I'm all for 1 standard, but...

[Anonymous Coward]

People are different. My personal preference is: Don't care if the sun sets at 3pm in December as long as it comes up at a decent hour.

To each their own. I guess it should be decided by a state/province-wide vote and majority rules

Re: I'm all for 1 standard, but...

[Anonymous Coward]

If your area changes to DST year around, then eventually your boss and coworkers will notice the effect and say "WTF there's too little sunlight before work and too much after work, let's change the work hours". You'll end up in the same situation as having no DST.

Basically those who would prefer earlier work hours are a minority because if they were a majority then the work hours would already have changed. Given that you're part of a minority there's nothing you can do to change the relationship between work hours and sunlight to your liking because the work hours are set according to the desire of the majority.

Re:I'm all for 1 standard, but...

[david_thornley]

Suppose that your work day ends at 1700. That means that, during much of the year, it actually ends at 1600, but during winter it ends at 1700. If we went to daylight saving time year-around, why do you think your work day would still end at 1600? The work schedule can change.

Re: Here's a way of looking at DST

[Anonymous Coward]

That's douchebaggery at its highest level. If you're a lazy piece of shit who needs the clock to change for no reason other than to motivate you to do something in your life then that's on you. Stop forcing that shit on the rest of us. There is no logical reason to change our clocks twice a year. Engaging in that behavior does nothing to help society. Unmotivated losers will remain that way with or without DST.

ObBetteridge

[Anonymous Coward]

No.

Smart clocks suck

[FrankSchwab]

I live in Arizona, which doesn't observe DST, which eliminates me having to wander through the house and reset all the clocks, right?
Wrong.
You see, I like to have my clocks all reading the same time, so almost all the clocks in my house are atomic clocks and keep themselves sync'ed with WWV. And every spring and fall, they dutifully jump forward or backward an hour, so I still end up wandering through the house resetting clocks. Ugh.

A fun fact

[slashmydots]

Did you know that daylight savings time single handedly kills more people from cardiac problems than terrorism per year.

Re: A fun fact

[Anonymous Coward]

Yes, but so does watching Fox News.

Re:A fun fact

[Anonymous Coward]

Did you know that daylight savings time single handedly kills more people from cardiac problems than terrorism per year.

To give us some idea of the numbers you're basing this on, how many people does daylight saving time kill from terrorism?

(Yes, yes, I know: damn near anything you can name kills more people annually than terrorism, but security theatre allows corrupt rich people to get richer while simultaneously allowing them to increasingly cow not-rich people. They've had a taste of power, so without a rebellion of some sort, it's likely to continue getting worse.)

Re:A fun fact

[Anonymous Coward]

Did you know that daylight savings time single handedly kills more people from cardiac problems than terrorism per year.

I'm not so sure about that. The US kills lots of people fairly regularly.

Re:A fun fact

[Imrik]

Yes, but we're not trying to use fear to effect political change, we're trying to eliminate one side of the argument to effect political change.

Re:A fun fact

[Gussington]

Did you know that daylight savings time single handedly kills more people from cardiac problems than terrorism per year.

As do people being shot by toddlers, but here we are. OMG Terrorism!!!

Re:A fun fact

[nukenerd]

Did you know that daylight savings time single handedly kills more people from cardiac problems than terrorism per year.

No I didn't. Is that what they put on the death certificate - "Killed by DST" ?

What is worse than keeping or dropping DST?

[Anonymous Coward]

Having random States on or off DST. This is like the Tower of Babel but for time. Have a multi-state conference call? Good luck coordinating that, can no longer say 3pm and have it mean 3pm this time-zone, even saying 3pm EST becomes tricky. Idiots.

Re:What is worse than keeping or dropping DST?

[Imrik]

No, saying 3pm EST will still work, (unless you don't actually mean EST) it's saying 3pm Eastern that won't.

Texas too

[Anonymous Coward]

Texas House bill HR2400 and Senate bill SR238 will be up for votes shortly to do the same. Russia in 2014 joined China, Japan and India in keeping Standard Time year round. In 2015 North Korea went half way to a year round 30 minute time change.

How about DST all year, for solar power purposes?

[Anonymous Coward]

With Standard Time, solar power production ends by about 1600 in the winter and 1900 in the summer. But peak usage is usually from about 1500-2100 or even 2200. Having the solar panels (in the summer) contributing until 1930-2000 or so (or even later in northern latitudes) helps. Especially if you have time-of-use rates.

Otherwise ... most of us don't live or work in solar-lighted (e.g. by windows) places any more. So any justification based on using less power for lighting is bogus. It's true, though, that in winter it results in near-darkness when kids are going to school - but with most riding in Mom's Taxi that's also not a serious issue.

Hopefully California is next

[Snotnose]

There is a bill in the lower intestine of the government to no longer switch to DST, with luck it will be on the ballot in November. From what I've heard not only in forums but talking to people, everybody hates it. The older I get the longer it takes me to adjust. In my 30s I was WTF is the big deal. In my late 50's it's "oh god, not this shit again".

DST? Love it

[CanEHdian]

So for something completely non-nerdy: I like to sit in the sun and relax for a bit (cold beer optional). So when you come home after work (say at the fixed time of 5:00pm), you can still enjoy the warmth of the sun as it's actually "just" 4:00pm. So do I care about the very end of the day? No, not really. The morning? Nope. But the extra hour in the afternoon, before supper? Absolutely.

It's about the variability

[pgn674]

My understanding is that Daylight Savings Time makes the sunrise time have a smaller range over the course of a year, at the expense of a more variable sunset.

Here is a chart.

And more fun for sysadmins

[clovis]

Having islands of DST and non-DST time can be a pain in the neck for sysadmins. It's not just the USA that's dicking around with the DST rules. It seems like every continent has their own start and end dates, not to mention various countries moving the time zones around.

It was a moderate pain when the DST rules changed in 2007. We were using both virtual machines and standalone servers with Ardence/Citrix Provisioning Server type technology, and not everything went smoothly.

Re:And more fun for sysadmins

[Gussington]

Having islands of DST and non-DST time can be a pain in the neck for sysadmins.

What is this 1999? Since Y2K, Machines should all be set to UTC, and the app should know how to deal with local conversion.

Re:And more fun for sysadmins

[clovis]

Having islands of DST and non-DST time can be a pain in the neck for sysadmins.

What is this 1999? Since Y2K, Machines should all be set to UTC, and the app should know how to deal with local conversion.

/quote

Ohhh, please no, do not let the apps do that. The bad stuff that happened during the 2007 DST change were mostly apps that did their own conversion.

Re:And more fun for sysadmins

[clovis]

Having islands of DST and non-DST time can be a pain in the neck for sysadmins.

What is this 1999? Since Y2K, Machines should all be set to UTC, and the app should know how to deal with local conversion.

Ohhh, please no, do not let the apps do that. The bad stuff that happened during the 2007 DST change were mostly apps that did their own conversion.

Never mind.
It just occurred to me that you did not mean let the apps maintain the timezone/DST etc tables, but rather use the OS tables to inform the apps to do the local time conversions, like Outlook does for mails sent/received in different timezones, (when it's working correctly).

Re:And more fun for sysadmins

[Anonymous Coward]

Outlook has never worked properly. Book a DST meeting when it's not DST to see., Heck, book a meeting at 02:30 on the day that no such time exists! Outlook is clueless.

DST is not the issue

[markdavis]

>"Okay...twice every year Slashdot disses Daylight savings time,

Most people on Slashdot are not dissing Daylight Savings Time. That isn't the issue. The issue is CHANGING TIME TWICE A YEAR. Just put it on DST and leave it there permanently!

Re:DST is not the issue

[Anonymous Coward]

Better solution: double the offset to 2 hours and then make it permanent.

Ditch time zones altogether.

[_Shorty-dammit]

Time zones are ridiculous. If it is 1500 hours in Vancouver, it should be 1500 hours anywhere and everywhere else on the planet. It's not like this would be difficult to adapt to. After all, you don't hear of anyone trying to get everyone to convert to date zones by latitude, so that January in Australia is winter, too.

DudeA: Happy Birthday!

DudeB: It's not my birthday.

DudeA: What? It's July 17th today. I could swear your birthday was July 17th!

DudeB: It is. But I'm not from this date zone. So it isn't for another 6 months when it is July in Australia.

DudeA: Sorry! I forgot!

I don't see time zones being any different than that. Get rid of them. People are more than capable of figuring out that morning for them is at 1900 hours even if it is at 0500 hours for someone somewhere else on the planet. Just like they can figure out that August 1st in Las Vegas is in the summer but in New Zealand it is winter. No more mistakes because you got a time zone conversion wrong. It's the same time everywhere, just like it should be the same date everywhere.

Re:Ditch time zones altogether.

[Anonymous Coward]

But that means going to work on Monday and going home on Tuesday, with the work day something like 1700-0200.

DST is designed to move early sunny hours, where most people are still asleep, to late evenings. How well this works depends on where you live.

And if you don't use DST, then you have to change local work schedules and that would be worse. One of my Arizona connections changes the time zone indicator to help out of state callers.

Re:Ditch time zones altogether.

[Anonymous Coward]

I've always said this, but never went as far as an analogy. It's a good one, I'll have to remember it.

Re:Ditch time zones altogether.

[ChunderDownunder]

Only 12% of us live in the Southern Hemisphere.

Is it that confusing for those of you who live north of the equator? Or are you just jealous of us spending Christmas at the beach instead of under a metre of snow? :)

Re:Ditch time zones altogether.

[_Shorty-dammit]

"But that means going to work on Monday and going home on Tuesday, with the work day something like 1700-0200."

Yeah, so? It's all arbitrary anyway. The point is if you can agree that it is Sunday, March 12th for everyone then you should be able to agree that it is 1700 for everyone, too. The fact that it will seem odd to you at first given your current point of view does not mean it will always be odd. Just like January being summer in Australia should not seem odd to you.

Everyone uses the same calendar. Everyone should use the same time. It is, after all, the same moment in time for everyone anyway. The fact that the sun rises for you at a different moment in time because of the longitude of where you are on the planet shouldn't be relevant, especially since you don't think the latitude of where you're at is relevant to the date. That's the point you need to get through your head. Saying east and west matters but north and south doesn't is odd. And it should be clear which one should be thrown out.

Re:Ditch time zones altogether.

[_Shorty-dammit]

I'm pretty sure my argument was that it is not confusing at all, nor should it be if we all converted to one single time.

Re:Ditch time zones altogether.

[Anonymous Coward]

Perhaps you shouldn't speak so confidently about changing things when you don't even understand the current situation. It is not Sunday, March 12th for everyone.

go montana!

[filesiteguy]

DST is absurd. I see no valid reason to change twice a year. Maybe in northern latitudes, the sun changes more drastically. I live in the south. I recall the old argument to switch off - that kids would be going to school in the dark - and thinking, "why don't they adjust the start time of school to something more reasonable than 8:00?"

Not looking forward to tomorrow.

Fall guy here

[fyngyrz]

If you only get rid of setting the clocks forward in spring, without getting rid of setting the clocks back in fall, you're gonna have serious problems after a couple years.

What? No. Let's make a bet. A hundred bucks says you come back twenty four years from now, you'll see our clocks aren't off at all.

Check and mate, sonny.

Ever thought about ntp for next time?

[raymorris]

> You see, I like to have my clocks all reading the same time, so almost all the clocks in my house are atomic clocks and keep themselves sync'ed with WWV.

Your radio synchronized clocks* are accurate to within a about 200ms or so. Using NTP, your clocks can all read the same time to within about 1ms. Any computer or computing device (such as even a consumer grade wireless router) includes a NTP client. You set one device as the master for your house. It syncs to a couple of nearby tier 2 servers, then all your other clocks sync to the local master, which is only nanoseconds away. That can be far more accurate than syncing to a source a thousand miles away, over a 60Khz radio signal.

* Unless you spent at least $1,500 on each clock, what's advertised as an "atomic clock" is actually a radio synchronized clock. Internally it keeps time with a quartz crystal, just like any clock you'd find at the dollar store. However once or twice per day it tries to sync to the radio signal which is loosely synchronized to an actual atomic clock. Operating at only 60Khz, the WWV is significantly less accurate than something like the signals CDMA and GSM phones use.

poor summary...

[Anonymous Coward]

state should stop setting their clocks forward by one hour every spring

so, the way the first line reads, the state wants to end setting the clock forward every spring.. but no mention about stopping setting it back an hour every autumn....

if they do that... montana will end up even more backwards than kentucky

Sigh...

[magamiako1]

I love the complaints in here over DST, I especially like the suggestions that "schools should adjust schedules so that kids should not go to school in the dark."

And therein lies the problem. So instead of adjusting the clocks, we'll now adjust everybody's schedule. In the winter time, you work from 9A-6P. In the summertime, you work from 10A-7P. Bam!

You now sleep until 8A instead of 7A, or in the winter time you sleep until 7A instead of 8A!

And....you're doing exactly what you would have fucking done with DST, except where you change the timings...

Re:Sigh...

[Anonymous Coward]

Perhaps but it would be more democratic.

Local time.

[westlake]

Daylight savings time has been opposed by a grassroots group of Montana farmers and ranchers, who have to sync their work schedule to the sun rather than the time on the clock.

Take the argument to its logical conclusion and these farmers should be reverting to the pre-railroad days of setting their clocks based on local solar time. Be sure to re-set your watch every 25 miles or so as you move east or west.

Re:How about DST all year, for solar power purpose

[Imrik]

Changing the time they're contributing only helps if the peak usage doesn't shift along with it.

Daylight Saving Time - How Is This Still A Thing?

[aneroid]

From Last Week Tonight with John Oliver: Daylight Saving Time - How Is This Still A Thing?

I'll say it again

[Anonymous Coward]

DST becomes an issue in my state about every ten years. It arises solely because half the population lives on the border of a state that uses DST. That means in summer, businesses can deal with the neighbouring state for only 7 hours per work-day. Oh, the humanity of it all.

We need to fall back an hour every day

[Anonymous Coward]

Let the sun rotate in the sky as it may. Give us all a break and add an extra hour to every day. More productivity because we would get better sleep.

Wasting time on industrial scale

[Max_W]

to change time on multiple devices. Please, cancel it.

Get up two hours earlier

[tomhath]

Just get up earlier. You don't need the state to tell you to do so.

Re:Get up two hours earlier

[Anonymous Coward]

Just get up earlier. You don't need the state to tell you to do so.

Not that I agree with this, but it isn't about getting up earlier it is about leaving work earlier. Not everyone can pick their own hours. Still, I agree a state based solution is moronic.

"Energy savings"

[Anonymous Coward]

It would be insanely easier to educate EVERYONE in to saving energy every day than hoping DST would save energy.
Most people do one of these:
slightly cold? turn heating up. (even if it gets too hot)
too hot? turn AC on, put fan on.
leave lights, TVs and heating on in rooms nobody is in.
Having lights on full-bright. (regardless of them having a dimmer switch or not)
Washing things in hot water ALL the time.

If you are cold, put some damn clothes on. Don't have comfy clothes? Buy some! You'll save stupid amounts of money on less heating bills!
Likewise if you are too hot, buy some comfortable light clothes for those days.
You should only ever be using those if it is dangerously cold / hot, to the point you are shaking / sweating buckets. In those cases, it is absolutely fine.
Get dimmer switches for every room. They are cheap and save so much power. You should only ever need full-bright lights if you are working with things that absolutely need the ability to resolve fine details and/or color.
And more to the point, if possible, AVOID those scenarios. It's bad for your health in general, but also for your financial health. (less so if you are on the rich end, but even still!)
Get TVs with auto-turn off features and set them. Sure it might ask you if you are still active every X period with a huge pop-up on screen, but it will save you power over time if you are forgetful.
Washing water on high heat all the time is also stupid. Well over 90% of the things in any average household do not require such heavy cleaning. Room-temp water + agitation is all that is needed to clean those things, whether it is clothes or plates.
The only things that are reasonably acceptable for hot water are really baked in stains, fats and oils and similar. Although with fats and oils, a simple soap and room-temp water is still all you need. Absolutely no stupid anti-bacterials either. They should be banned already. So god damn dangerous, they should never be allowed outside medical use like anti-biotics, -fungal and -viral.
They DO NOT WORK and only make things worse off in the long run. The instant you clean, say, plates, sit them on a drying rack, put them away, oh hey, suddenly bacteria start moving in and calling it home. Most people don't clean their cupboards or drying racks regularly, hell, I know many people that don't even put plates IN cupboards. (including my mother!)
If you want to ensure they are clean, wash them before use. But even then, it is pointless since your body DEPENDS on constant infection to work properly.
Washing things so obsessively is the reason for massive increases in autoimmune. Whether it is yourself, clothes, plates or food, do not wash them so much!
On the body part, the reason bodies smell in the first place is BECAUSE people over-wash. You wipe off all the useful healthy bacteria that keep your skin fresh. Getting rid of those lets simple bacteria colonise quickly, which are usually the stinky ones.
Boom, saving even more money.

It is easy to make these simple changes, cheap as well.
They'd save more money than DST possibly has since its inception in ONE YEAR.

Why do "farmers and ranchers" care anyway?

[nukenerd]

FTFA

Daylight savings time has been opposed by a grassroots group of Montana farmers and ranchers, who have to sync their work schedule to the sun rather than the time on the clock

So why TF does it matter to a farmer what the clock says? They of all people can entirely ignore what the clock says, including DST, and just get up when the cock crows or use whatever other criterion they want to. DST only matters if you have an employer to report to.

actually

[Anonymous Coward]

we should double or quadrupe the number of time zones if timezones were 15
min apart, everyone would have a much truer experience as regards sunlight.

Re: Still upside down from the 2006 & 2007 c

[Anonymous Coward]

we should have infinitly many timezones, tied to your exact longitude.

sun vs time

[avgapon]

> Montana farmers and ranchers, who have to sync their work schedule to the sun rather than the time on the clock, This is one of the most ridiculous arguments against DST I have ever heard. People who sync to the Sun don't care about the clocks, DST or not.

Re: ASPERGERS?

[Anonymous Coward]

You and Principal Skinner "Am I Out Of Touch? No It's The Children Who Are Wrong".

I'm over 40 and I've never heard anyone call it by the proper name. Instead, everyone has always said "daylight savings time," so I think the toothpaste has left the tube on this one. When almost everyone (old and young) says something one way, then that makes it correct, too. In fact, it probably makes it more correct than the "official" name. Just ask BandAid, Kleenex, and Xerox.

tl;dr: Stop trying to make water flow uphill. Also, ease up, and you might live longer.

Keep DST, ditch STANDARD time

[Anonymous Coward]

Totally agree, let's quit switching. Let's ditch standard time though, not DST. How many people want sunset to be an hour earlier in the day? How many people want sunset to be an hour later? I'm guessing the "later sunset" group has the "earlier sunset" group outnumbered.

We humans are IDIOTS!!!

[martinfb]

Why must we find "white" lie-like crap to pretend it makes lives better?!

How about we all strive to stop fooling ourselves?!
If it is too dark (thus the need for more energy) when your alarm goes off, go back to bed. Get up when it is light; then put in your 8 hours - or whatever works as most productive for you.

And, while we are at it, PAY ATTENTION TO WHO YOU ARE VOTING FOR!!!