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Suicide of an Uber Engineer: Widow Blames Job Stress (sfchronicle.com)
An anonymous reader shares a report: Joseph Thomas thought he had it made when he landed a $170,000 job as a software engineer at Uber's San Francisco headquarters last year. [...] But his time at Uber turned into a personal tragedy, one that will compel the ride-hailing company to answer questions before a judge about its aggressive work culture. Always adept with computers, Joseph Thomas worked his way up the ladder at tech jobs in his native Atlanta, then at LinkedIn in Mountain View, where he was a senior site reliability engineer. He turned down an offer from Apple to go to Uber, because he felt he could grow more with the younger company and was excited about the chance to profit from stock options when it went public. But at Uber, Thomas struggled in a way he'd never experienced in over a decade in technology. He worked long hours. He told his father and his wife that he felt immense pressure and stress at work, and was scared he'd lose his job. [...] One day in late August, Zecole (the wife) came home from dropping their boys off at school. Joseph was sitting in his car in the garage. She got into the passenger seat to talk to him. Then she saw the blood. Joseph had shot himself. [...] Uber declined to comment on the legal dispute and said Thomas never complained to the company of extreme stress or racial discrimination.
"He turned down an offer from Apple to go to Uber"
If he had a job offer from Apple and choose to go work at Uber it also means he was good at what he does and he could have dropped his new job and find a better one, at Apple or some other place.
Some Bay Area tech companies are real meat grinders. I've definitely been so stressed out and overworked that it affected me emotionally. But that's a long way from suicide. I can't imagine what Uber could do to an employee that is different than some of the worst companies I've worked at. I suspect that some people are more sensitive to on the job pressure, or other psychological conditions may be at play here. And I would have hoped someone in that situation seek counseling or quit their jobs before getting to the point of suicide.
“Common sense is not so common.” — Voltaire
I share your cynicism about the idea that the true cause was an "aggressive work culture" but the same time this was a human being. You, the person hiding behind the screen and the AC title. Don't be an a-hole. Joseph probably had depression, you have a-hole disease.
Sometimes being an a-hole is a sign of metal illness as well. I think we should all slow down and not be quick to judge.
He worked long hours. He told his father and his wife that he felt immense pressure and stress at work, and was scared he'd lose his job...
Look , were all scared we'd lose our job. That's the nature of [most] work these days.
What I have learned in the west is that people do not really "enjoy life." They live to work. Laws surrounding how family matters are handled do not necessarily favor the male. These could all have had a hand in this.
I must say I am sorry for the family's loss. I also think we in the west need to take life easier a bit. It's not all about money. We should also understand that elsewhere in the world, there are folks who seem to be happier with much less than what we have here.
I know this, for I am well travelled. To conclude, let's not start blaming the employer right away. There's definitely much more to this than this piece says.
Uber declined to comment on the legal dispute and said Thomas never complained to the company of extreme stress or racial discrimination.
Why do I get the feeling that he complained about being "really stressed" but technically not "extreme stress"? Oh yeah, it's because Uber is a bunch of shysters that would gladly stab you in the back and sell your children into slavery if they knew they could get away with it.
Anons need not reply. Questions end with a question mark.
It's a tragedy that this guy killed himself but I'm sure that working for a bunch of assholes was just a contributing factor the guy had clearly successfully moved jobs several times in the past and I'm sure it wouldn't have been difficult for him to do it again. That his widow is suing Uber over his suicide just smacks of jumping on the "Everyone Hates Uber" bandwagon
Build a Man a Fire, and He'll Be Warm for a Day. Set a Man on Fire, and He'll Be Warm for the Rest of His Life.
Sometimes being an a-hole is a sign of metal illness as well. I think we should all slow down and not be quick to judge.
Sometimes it's a sign of having a realistic outlook on things and not sugar coating them, too.
I go home exhausted, work frequently out of town
The sane response would be to say, "wow, we really ought to stand together and do something to put an end to this" rather than this crab-bucket syndrome you're perpetuating.
Proud neuron in the Slashdot hivemind since 2002.
boo hoo hoo complaining you work to hard when making $170,000 a year. what a joke
Look, the name associated with a comment here is irrelevant. As far as I'm concerned, "plague911" is just as anonymous and meaningless as "Anonymous Coward" is.
Somebody has died, and all you can think about is attacking people here because of the name associated with their comments?!
Here are the only names you should be thinking about right now: Joseph Thomas, Zecole Thomas, Ezekiel Thomas, and Joseph Thomas, Jr.
Please, show some compassion. Please. It's the least you could do.
I share your cynicism about the idea that the true cause was an "aggressive work culture" but the same time this was a human being. You, the person hiding behind the screen and the AC title. Don't be an a-hole. Joseph probably had depression, you have a-hole disease.
Also, although job culture could not really have been the root cause, it definitely could be a contributing factor. Someone prone to depression can easily enter a downward spiral when placed under immense stress, to a degree that they're too depressed to take the obvious actions to get out of the stressful environment. If this guy came from LinkedIn and turned down a job at Apple, he obviously had excellent prospects for getting another job, and that would have been the obvious response to excessive job stress. But depressed people don't think that clearly. A good manager and good co-workers should have recognized the situation and encouraged him to seek help.
Note that I'm assuming here that the wife is right, and that it really was a toxic work environment. It's also possible that the work environment is fine and that it was just severe clinical depression. Given the rest of what we hear about Uber, though, it wouldn't shock me to learn that the work environment contributed a great deal.
Note to ACs: I usually delete AC replies without reading them. If you want to talk to me, log in.
For people reading this, my suggestion is to make an effort to simply be kind and/or friendly to people you work with or interact with. Maybe it will help someone who really needs it.
If something is so bad that you can't be kind or friendly, find another job or make whatever other change you need to make.
"Sometimes it's a sign of having a realistic outlook on things and not sugar coating them, too."
Yes, but no too, and probably most of the time
With this guys credentials he couldn't get another job? Give me a break.
He could have gotten another regular tech job elsewhere. But if he bought into the startup culture, and spent more money than he had because he expected a big payoff with the IPO, a regular tech job couldn't pay the bills for the black hole he gotten himself into.
You can cut the red-pill conservative bullshit thats been going around lately. Things like toughen up snowflake, not my problem etc work only when you are the third party not affected by the current situation. Guess what, its normal to be human and have some problems. Next time you encounter a loss in life, invite someone to poop over yourself and see how it feels!
"fortune and fulfillment" - this. I
I believe having those 2 is probably the key to a happy life. It doesn't even mater if you're wise or intelligent - as long as you do what you like and make enough to get whatever you feel you need, you will be OK. Of course society and its consumerism step in to screw that amazing balance, but that's what society needs to move forward, not you, at least not immediately. What YOU need is either the endurance to keep that balance, or allow some risk for your own inclusion in that innovative, ever-evolving club. Mid-life crisis is known to be a catalyst for people losing that balance, and that's why its called a crisis - a lot of people "let go" of their balance around this time, many by suicide.
"A company's culture reflects the people at the top"
It could very well be the case here, and considering the stereotypical negative bashing other employees have reported only reinforces that.
How would a manager or co-worker know there was a problem?
I mean, granted it may be more of a contractor thing, but who makes friends at "work"? I mean, you go there to earn money and leave for the day, period.
It isn't usually in ones' best interest to discuss problems with co-workers or management lest you wish them to think something wrong with you and possibly lose your job, or choice assignments.
I pretty much always have clearly separated work from personal time. I have lots of friends outside work that I love to spend time with and will confide in them, etc...but the work place is NOT the place for such things.
I'm quite amiable at work, I'll listen and talk to people, but I try my best to never give off too much personal information and certainly not give out information on my emotions or personal problems I"m having. It could be used against you in so many ways at work.
Work is a competition for resources and money. And you have to always make sure you have the edge.
So, I would guess this guy likely didn't tell or give off signs at work that anything was wrong. And that's not a bad strategy.
Your personal support group should be your friends and family outside the work environment.
Light travels faster than sound. This is why some people appear bright until you hear them speak.........
*Said while not hiding as AC. ;)
File this under who gives a crap. I make a fraction of that money. I go home exhausted, work frequently out of town. Work long hours for no extra money. With this guys credentials he couldn't get another job? Give me a break.
I'm surprised that you have to work that hard and travel so much, just to be an asshole. And really, I wouldn't expect being an asshole to pay all that well. Plenty of people are willing to do it. You probably just love the job, eh?
"What the American public doesn't know is what makes them the American public." -Ray Zalinsky (Tommy Boy)
If he was clinically depressed then it isn't Uber's fault at all.
Depression is an actual Medical condition driven by chemical imbalances in the brain. they might as well try to sue Uber for him contracting Kidney disease or something.
When Fascism comes to America, it will call itself Anti-Fascism, and tell you to give up your guns.
I'd say there's a decent chance of lawsuit if this happened at any company.
Let's just pile on Uber and blame them for all kinds of things. They seem to be the designated whipping boy for all things bad in the tech industry now, so why not? I think that it is now fashionable to beat on Uber for all it's perceived sins. I'm not saying Uber is a great place, it obviously has earned some of this, but at this point, we are beyond what seems reasonable to me.
Where I feel for this guy's widow, Uber is ultimately NOT responsible for his death, he is. I know this is hard to admit and as she goes though the stages of grief she is obviously hurting and lashing out at Uber as she goes though this process. I hope she can find peace with this issue eventually and see that her husband's death is only one person's fault. That person is not her or Uber, but hm. In the mean time, I'm very sorry she is going though this.
For anybody out there thinking of following in this guy's footsteps. Consider this: The pain you leave behind for your loved ones is real and the question of "why" will forever cloud their lives in an unfair way. Please get help, tell somebody and work it out somehow, for them, killing yourself is not an answer, it doesn't make the problem go away.
"File to fit, pound to insert, paint to match" - Aircraft Maintenance 101
About the only thing you can spend too much on is rent, at least in the Bay Area. And that's resolved by moving, perhaps very far away (Hayward to San Francisco is not a very nice commute). People don't normally go out and buy lots of expensive cars when they get a new job. But they do often get into an apartment that is beyond their means. As for houses, it's hard to get a loan for a house without having some history at your new salary. The days of easy mortgages has long past.
“Common sense is not so common.” — Voltaire
Maybe, but hardly bingo considering Uber's record.
There's also a magnitude of difference between a toxic work environment and "I go home exhausted, work frequently out of town. Work long hours for no extra money." as the original poster put it. I've done the latter and even enjoyed it but I've also stuck a toxic work environment for years past the point I should have left and ended up suffering from serious stress and depression (not sleeping, panic attacks if my phone rang out of hours, depressed on a Saturday night because I can sense Monday approaching). You can also feel that its your own fault, particularly if others seem to cope and especially if there's bullying involved.
I can't really judge this case from a short summary, but people poo-pooing the idea have just never experienced it.
"Joseph Thomas had worked slightly less than five months at Uber when he killed himself. "
He went from happy engineer to suicide in less than five months?
It can happen for all sorts of reasons, not all related to job stress.
While more than job culture might be needed to make it into a suicide, I think it's plenty important to note that misery and hopelessness can easily come out of job culture alone, and this article should be a wake-up call for that.
Some people are naturally courageous. Others can easily find themselves in this situation. You were once a great developer. Now you moved to a new job, and miss a few deadlines. They tell you you're not so hot. Maybe overtly, maybe not -- maybe they just hound you about stuff over and over, or rewrite all your code, or not invite you to important meetings. At first you may still think, I am still a great engineer, they are just treating me unfairly. After a while, though, many people start to believe, I do suck, and it's kind of a fluke of resume that I actually got hired here in the first place. Maybe I can't get another job. Maybe I haven't spoken to my recommenders in years. Maybe there's other pressure -- not to be misogynistic, but I've been there personally -- maybe the wife spends 100% of their income. So what do you do? You're stuck. Without depression, maybe you don't do anything drastic, you just slowly let your health deteriorate. Doesn't sound so unbelievable to me.
Maybe you start having panic attacks, and attend group therapy, where your therapist drops dead in front of you, and then THAT finally gets you to make a change...
People don't normally go out and buy lots of expensive cars when they get a new job.
I knew a Cisco engineer who bought two Tesla cars He couldn't afford one much less two but he had to outcompete the other engineers on the hardware specs. And then he wonders why he's stressed out all the time.
I share your cynicism about the idea that the true cause was an "aggressive work culture" but the same time this was a human being. You, the person hiding behind the screen and the AC title. Don't be an a-hole. Joseph probably had depression, you have a-hole disease.
From TFS:
"Joseph Thomas worked his way up the ladder at tech jobs in his native Atlanta, then at LinkedIn in Mountain View, where he was a senior site reliability engineer. He turned down an offer from Apple to go to Uber..."
Seems like what he was really suffering from was greed; as in the particular flavor of greed that allows someone with this kind of work experience to put up with an "aggressive work culture" in order to cash out on the get-rich-quick stock option game.
I'm sincerely sorry for his family and loved ones affected by this. He was a human being. That said, the parent was merely stating the truth. He could have easily quit and gotten another job, which tends to make the "scared he'd lose his job" excuse rather weak.
Did that stock option shit once. This tends to highlight why I'll never do that shit again.
If he was so stressed out that he committed suicide, it means he wasn't a good match for the job. But he must have been quite a bit above average to even make it that far and he could easily have found a well-paying job elsewhere.
It seems likely, given the nature of Uber, Silicon Valley, and San Francisco, that diversity goals may have played a role in his hire. We know from academic environments (where this is easier to study) that this kind of mismatch harms its intended beneficiaries. Success at technical jobs is, after all, not just a question of privilege and knowing the right people.
Psychological problems are far more than a bunch of chemicals gone awry, that's a very reductionist and shortsighted perspective. Outside factors will have an impact on your mental state which can quite significantly worsen your condition.
If you get hired into a job you can't handle, face losing your $170k/year salary, and are stuck with your family in a city surrounded by the ultra-wealthy? Absolutely. Job changes are extremely stressful even without all those added pressures.
Coming from the New York metro area, I know how insane cost of living is compared to other parts of the country. Generally, New York, Boston, Washington DC, Chicago and of course California cost way more to live in than just about anywhere else. Part of it is taxes, part of it is because that's where all the high-salary jobs tend to gravitate to, but the reality is that a $170K salary in San Francisco is barely above middle class. Rent in SF proper is more expensive than anywhere outside Midtown Manhattan, and houses start in the million dollar range and go up from there. California has great weather, but I would never live there for that reason. I already pay a lot for a house in a suburb about 60 miles from the city -- I love living here but there would be no way I could justify paying more than double what I'm already paying to buy a house.
I think the fact that this person moved from Georgia to California without demanding a much higher salary is a huge contributor to his stress. Uber isn't exactly known as a warm and fuzzy employer either -- it sounds like a carbon copy of all the other frathouse startups from Bubbles 1.0 and 2.0. Anyone who's older and different in an environment like that is going to have a hard time fitting in. If you can't do 16-hour coding sessions while playing beer pong, you're an outsider, but will still be expected to perform the same way as everyone else. Older people who have worked a fair amount usually realize when they're being taken advantage of, but what if this guy just felt he couldn't leave? Having a potential lottery ticket in the form of stock options is a big reason lots of people stay in the crazy startup culture. With a family to support, and the feeling that he'd fail if he had to go back to Atlanta, no wonder he lost it.
That's one of the reasons I'd never work at a startup -- there's zero work life balance, no stability and the "if we wanted you to have a family, we would have issued you one" culture. Seriously, I'm older and have seen how companies take advantage of employees -- I prefer to work hard enough to have an employer want to keep me, but not give my life over to them. That's for suckers!
You what? Nowhere does it say he had a bad family life (actually, the fact she got him to see a doctor indicates that she was doing all she could). So blaming his wife is flat out contrary to what the article indicates.
This is purely and simply a management issue. If the manager didn't catch severe depression from overwork coming up on one of his employees, they're no manager at all. It's a _huge_ part of management, ensuring that your staff are performing correctly (and that doesn't mean just 'hitting targets', that's easy, it means "they're performing as human beings, with resilience and sufficient endurance"). And yes, I do management as well as having done the working all the way up to it. Hell, I've run companies before, and keeping people with high morale as much as possible is what gets you through the tough times.
When you become depressed and anxious (the article indicates he was suffering from comorbid anxiety and depression), then looking for an alternative is _not_ an option. The brain convinces you that you're not capable, or that nobody would want you.. Or that he'd fail his family and it would all go wrong unless he kept the money coming in.. All sorts of things, so it makes you prone to trying to keep what stability is there... Though his history shows that he was clearly able to perform in well managed environments, and excel.
There is one obvious variable that changed, and that's his workplace. After working at Uber, he tanked, after excelling at previous similar roles. This points to management and environment causing undue anxiety leading to depression. This was not identified at Uber (him saying that "his boss didn't like him" was quite possibly true, and at least shows that there was a huge disconnect in his direct management).
Not sure what the internals of the company are generally like (though it sounds like there's vast rumbling of discontent, which indicates that it's not being run properly), but it definitely points to a failure of management, and management represent the company. It's going to legally be tough for them to wriggle out of.
Much though I dislike 'Ambulance Chasing', I don't think this is chasing ambulances. It's a failure and negligence on the part of the management chain, and possibly general management focus too. If there's no penalty to doing this, it'll continue.
Sounds like a hostile or at least dismal work environment to me. More lord of the flies than a workplace really.
Suicide doesn't seem like an appropriate answer to a stressful job. He probably had problems well beyond Uber's bad HR policy. Loosing a job, your house, your car... isn't the end of the world. Anyone rational enough would realize this. But suicide is usually from problem well beyond external problems which needs to be treated.
If something is so important that you feel the need to post it on the internet... It probably isn't that important.
You don't have to be friends with someone to see the behavioral changes that come with serious depression. Though, personally, I do like to make friends at work. I still regularly see people I worked with decades ago, because we built enduring friendships. Actually, that reminds me, it's time to organize another lunch or two...
Note to ACs: I usually delete AC replies without reading them. If you want to talk to me, log in.
Given that other developed nations have strong regulations protecting employee rights and work/life balance, and have higher worker productivity than the US you might want to ask yourselves " What are we Americans doing wrong ?"
Spoken like someone who doesn't pay taxes.
"He went from happy engineer to suicide in less than five months?"
If you don't have them already, have kids and get back to me. I'm very lucky that my wife has a great job as well, but I know lots of people with a family to support who are constantly worried. Even if you're not in debt up to your eyeballs (we're not,) it adds a lot of stress to your life. I have to live my life as if I'm going to lose my job at a moment's notice, because that's the world we live in now. Quadruple that stress if your spouse doesn't work, and add more on for each kid. It's not a sign of weakness; it's a sign of being a responsible person in my mind. Worrying about what happens to your family has to come first when you decide to go down that path. I feel bad for Mr. Thomas, because you have to be in a pretty dark place to feel like your life insurance policy is the best thing you can contribute.
I know it's an anachronism, but I do think things were better when people had more stable work and were able to stay with employers for a longer period of time. These days, it just seems like the cycles of boom and bust are increasing in frequency, and the amount of time it takes companies to cut employees or offshore just keeps getting shorter. I think I'm one of the only people who advocate for lifetime employment and no-layoff policies, but we had this only a few decades ago and life was much better. When people feel stable in their jobs they can relax, buy houses, buy cars, take vacations, etc. Now, we're more data-driven than ever and companies are using this to squeeze people harder.
I get the feeling you are young and still are surrounded by your friends from school. Once everyone pairs up, moves to jobs farther away and can't get together all the time like they used to, where do your friends come from? At a point in my life, not so long ago, most of my friends came into my life through work. Same age, same interests, same general goals.
Things have changed and not for the better.
Where i work now (same company but different culture now) to admit you are struggling with depression would get you in contact with HR and quietly laid off due to "right sizing". Problems are for others, not us. Which sounds a lot like what we are told about Uber.
Also, although job culture could not really have been the root cause, it definitely could be a contributing factor. Someone prone to depression can easily enter a downward spiral when placed under immense stress, to a degree that they're too depressed to take the obvious actions to get out of the stressful environment. If this guy came from LinkedIn and turned down a job at Apple, he obviously had excellent prospects for getting another job, and that would have been the obvious response to excessive job stress. But depressed people don't think that clearly. A good manager and good co-workers should have recognized the situation and encouraged him to seek help.
That is an excellent point. That actually makes me think even further... Why wouldn't his wife who should be the closest person to his life know about his depression? Or did she ever suggest him to find a new job if her husband made a lot of complaints about his work situation? Or did she actually pressure him to keep working in the place? How about his father whom the wife claimed that he was complaining about the job to? What was actually going on at home for him? There are too many unknown things that we should not jump into a conclusion. Though, I agreed with you that the work environment had at least some (if not huge) contributions to the tragedy...
I know two people, the specific relationships are not anyone's business.
One tried to kill them self. The other experienced suicide idealization while in middle school.
Both are now on small does of Risperidone. The Psychiatrist stated that this was a result of a chemical malfunction in the brain. He further stated that the brain is an organ just like anything else. "Mental Illness" is an artificial moniker given to a set of conditions that physicians are just now beginning to fully understand. It is no different than any other medical condition.
And sure, you can develop medical conditions as the result of work conditions...lack of sleep and stress can give you high blood pressure which can lead to strokes, kidney failure, etc. Should Uber or any other company be held liable for that too?
With respect to depression, it can also be brought on by lack of sleep. Sleeping is a required function of the brain. You sleep for a reason...physiological reasons. That's why people with sleep disorder diseases can die without sleep.
When Fascism comes to America, it will call itself Anti-Fascism, and tell you to give up your guns.
My wife and I collectively make less than half that and we pay 3k a month. I'm not about to shoot myself.
Absolutely and well said. Vote this man up.
We had a coworker whom wasn't handling the stress of our job well (by nature it is a high stress job and we try to select people whom thrive in crisis management). This guy just wasn't doing well and spiraling some. We couldn't convince him to leave, we couldn't move him to another job, and the process to get rif of an employee is quite a long time. We were worried about him.
That's when I saw my current manager do one of the absolute best things that I've ever seen done in a company. He called his wife in for a private meeting. She said that he was seeing doctors, looking for meds, etc, etc. He said that she needed to tell him to leave this job. She said that she tried but he was really invested in succeeding at this. That's when he said "You are his wife. You put your foot down on this. He comes home and you tell, not ask him, but tell him that he's putting in his two weeks. You say that it's because you're scared for your marriage and his life and nothing is worth it; that you'd rather be homeless with him than without him." Then he got the employee's mother's phone number from her and gave her a call and a light pre-brief that he was concerned for this employee's health and that if called she should also encourage him to separate from the job.
He put in his notice the next day. A month later he took my boss out to dinner to thank him for saving his life. He had been contemplating suicide and actually had a plan that he was going to execute on within the next week or so. The ironic thing is that because my boss is such a good guy, that added to the anxiety of him not being able to perform -- he desperately wanted to work for me box. Just wasn't in the right role. That's what good management looks like.
Coworkers I like become my friends after they leave, or after I leave the company. While I don't take it as far as the previous poster, I tend to agree that it's probably for the best not to confide your deepest vulnerabilities to people capable of using that against you later.
Just because it's "driven" by chemical "imbalances" in the brain doesn't mean it can't be caused by working conditions.
Yeah, the fact that stress can affect one's health is pretty well established... except with certain Slashdotters, apparently. I have little doubt this guy had a predisposition to depression; but I've seen first-hand how stress can affect people who were previously managing their clinical depression well.
Heck, so much about how our bodies work is not binary. You can have a predisposition to type 2 diabetes, but keep it in check with diet and exercise. You can have a family history of heart disease, but (at least somewhat) control its effects with diet.
#DeleteChrome
You have asshole disease, yourself, if you're not smart enough to realize you are hiding your true identity behind a username.
How many times do I have to point it out to you people?
It's like I'm dealing with a bunch of dopey fucking Trump supporters, here.
I am one of those people that was considered a computer prodigy myself. A lot of us when we are younger we believe we can change the world. We believe the world values technology, science and advancing human civilization. And then we come into contact with the real world that really doesn't care about those things. It primarily cares only about profits and in a lot of cases doesn't even care about morals and ethics. What you find is that your one and only true natural talent doesn't have near the value in this "advanced" society as you thought it did and your entire sense of self identity rests upon that very idea.
You have two choices when you arrive at this crossroads. You accept what you've come to understand reality to be or you don't. If you don't and you continue to try to reject reality and insert your own, it's quite possible you could end up where this unfortunate soul did. If you accept it, you realize that your skills and money and all that stuff are really a means to an end. And it really is a means to attain freedom so that you can do what you want, in whatever way you want and not have to compromise with this apathetic system we have.
I think the saddest part of it all is this is another young, idealistic person who came into the workforce, torch burning bright full of life and passion and he was snuffed out. He was looked at as a resource. The thing that the corporate types full of apathy and devoid of compassion don't realize is that when you put that flame out, it's typically out for good. In the case of Joseph Thomas, it's really out for good and that's a terrible tragedy.
We'll make great pets
It's simple, the cars go away when you stop making payments. No more cars and [mostly] no more problems. Some people have 50K in credit card debt, it sucks and if you let it get to you it can ruin your relationships and affect your health. But it horrible debt is a solvable problem, I don't want people to get pushed to the point of suicide over it.
It's amazing how people can get themselves worked up over things that don't matter that much. Worst case is no Tesla and bad credit, but he can still feed his family. Of course stress, anxiety and depression aren't rational things.
“Common sense is not so common.” — Voltaire
At first I was thinking that boss did it on the cheap by not laying of your coworker with a compensation package... then I realized that for the guy to loose his job could have been the straw that broke the camel's back. Well played.
This manager is really the kind that inspire loyalty, something that I feel is missing in a lot of places in the Silicon Valley unfortunately. As companies demand loyalty from their individual contributors, they often forget that it has to work both ways.
Nope, not even close.
In in the way above 40 yrs old set.
I have college friends in New Orleans that I reconnected with, but I also stay in regular touch with friends from the states I did live throughout my life and schooling.
I tend to meet people as neighbors and through them. And in NOLA, there is the concept of the neighborhood bar. I tend to meet many friends, neighbors and women there.
I don't do social media, but I have plenty of friends in meatspace locally as well as visitors or my travelling about to see them.
Once you "pair up", that doesn't mean you have to give up your friends of your youth. I'm still in regular touch with my oldest friend I met when I was 11 and he was 12yrs. A lot of my friends close are 15-20years friends and we still regularly hang out.
I am quite nice and cordial to co-workers, but I never get close to them. Unless they are in my immediate group I don't even really notice them as that I am busy at work.
I'd never stay with a woman that made me get rid of my friends...after all, I've known and respected them for MUCH LONGER than I've been fucking her....you know?
Light travels faster than sound. This is why some people appear bright until you hear them speak.........
I don't get why people have to status symbol themselves beyond their means.
It's called the American Dream.
Yes and no. Most startups have the opportunities for growth, stock options that could become valuable, etc., though you always have a decent chance of not getting anything from them other than more work. But there's definitely a point beyond which that extra work qualifies as worker abuse. This is why we need stronger laws on employee work hours.
Don't get me wrong; I'm okay with people hiring "exempt employees" with the understanding that their work hours will vary throughout the year, depending on what is happening. Where that scheme goes off the rails is when that turns into an expectation that you'll work 50+ hours every week—something that is fundamentally unsafe from a psychological perspective, causing serious harm to workers when done over a prolonged period. And from what I've read, Uber is one of "those companies".
Make no mistake, that culture is entirely the fault of Uber's management. Young people tend to think they're invincible, so without managers telling them to do otherwise, they will work themselves into the ground—sometimes literally. They think that by working ridiculous hours, they'll get ahead of their coworkers, and when enough people do that, others start to believe that long hours are required; thus, a work culture forms around that expectation.
What those young people don't realize is that those longer hours invariably lead to bad decision-making and lower quality output. Statistically, for every hour above about thirty hours, productivity falls off, and by about 50 hours or so, productivity actually goes negative; for every hour worked beyond that limit, you end up doing more than an hour of extra work to fix the additional screw-ups caused by the hour of extra work. For this reason, it is crucial for every tech business to have competent managers who strongly encourage employees to maintain a healthy work-life balance. Managers who do not do this—managers who prioritize short-term gains over worker health—invariably lead to worker burnout, long-term low productivity, and yes, suicides.
Unfortunately, between Uber and video game companies, it is pretty clear that self-regulation by industry isn't working, and that government needs to step in. Exempt shouldn't mean "we own your life". It should mean "40 hours average", i.e. the same as non-exempt workers, but allowing for seasonal variation. It should be illegal for exempt workers to spend more than an average of 40 hours per week spread across a one-year period. Huge fines are quite literally the only thing that companies like Uber will understand.
Check out my sci-fi/humor trilogy at PatriotsBooks.
Yes, there are more super high tech warplanes to build and more cops to hasrass and beat up the homeless to hire!
Nope, not even close.
In in the way above 40 yrs old set.
I have college friends in New Orleans that I reconnected with, but I also stay in regular touch with friends from the states I did live throughout my life and schooling.
I tend to meet people as neighbors and through them. And in NOLA, there is the concept of the neighborhood bar. I tend to meet many friends, neighbors and women there.
I don't do social media, but I have plenty of friends in meatspace locally as well as visitors or my travelling about to see them.
Once you "pair up", that doesn't mean you have to give up your friends of your youth. I'm still in regular touch with my oldest friend I met when I was 11 and he was 12yrs. A lot of my friends close are 15-20years friends and we still regularly hang out.
I am quite nice and cordial to co-workers, but I never get close to them. Unless they are in my immediate group I don't even really notice them as that I am busy at work.
I'd never stay with a woman that made me get rid of my friends...after all, I've known and respected them for MUCH LONGER than I've been fucking her....you know?
And you are above 40? Wow.
There's also a magnitude of difference between a toxic work environment and "I go home exhausted, work frequently out of town. Work long hours for no extra money." as the original poster put it. I've done the latter and even enjoyed it but I've also stuck a toxic work environment for years past the point I should have left and ended up suffering from serious stress and depression (not sleeping, panic attacks if my phone rang out of hours, depressed on a Saturday night because I can sense Monday approaching). You can also feel that its your own fault, particularly if others seem to cope and especially if there's bullying involved.
I can't really judge this case from a short summary, but people poo-pooing the idea have just never experienced it.
^^^. I've been through both also, long hours for the money and/or toxic environments, only one, though. The later one was bad enough to make me depressed for a while. If you live long enough and aren't the type that stays at one job forever, you are bound to experience it all.
It's going to legally be tough for them to wriggle out of.
This is morally wrong and dangerous. Morally wrong because if you commit suicide, you did it, not someone who made you feel bad. Dangerous because incentive payments for people who commit suicide is counterproductive unless you want more suicides.
Societies should disallow these types of lawsuits -- maybe with some sort of exception if you can prove someone had the specific intention of driving the person to suicide.
As a white midwesterner working in CA, I can sympathize with the idea that CA tech companies have toxic cultural problems. I can only imagine what it's like to be a black dude.
CA runs on passive aggresive behavior. It can be psychologically damaging to someone who grows up and has worked with real people their whole life.
While I disagree with the mockery of the dead, 170k salary and 4k rent is far far better than the typical American 45k salary and 1k rent.
You need to rethink your assessment of his income and quality of life.
A 170k salary in SF equates to roughly 8k monthly income (after taxes, 401k, benefits contribution). Of that 8k, in SF and close to SF, 4k will go directly to rent. Add to that utilities etc, and you'll be looking at 4300. That leaves 3700. Add a car payment ($300), car insurance ($100) and preschool for 1 child (~$800) and now you have $2500 left for a family of 4.
Don't look at the gross income, look at disposable income. See also this: http://www.mercurynews.com/201...
San Francisco and San Mateo counties have the highest limits in the Bay Area - and among the highest such numbers in the country. A family of four with an income of $105,350 per year is considered "low income."
Yes, you read that right. A 6 figure income can qualify as "low income" based on ALL the factors.
I'm not a complete idiot... Some parts are missing.
I tend to agree that it's probably for the best not to confide your deepest vulnerabilities to people capable of using that against you later.
If that's a potential issue, I find a better job.
Note to ACs: I usually delete AC replies without reading them. If you want to talk to me, log in.
Yep..and its been a wild ride so far....looking forward to more fun years of life!!
As much as possible at least....so many places to go, people to meet..things to do.
And I"m happy and blessed to have so many long tern friends in my stable, and alway looking to meet new ones.
Light travels faster than sound. This is why some people appear bright until you hear them speak.........
I will agree. He is still deserving of compassion as he was shooting for the stars (in a very unpoetic way that working for Uber I imagine to be) without wanting to harm anyone and he fell because he didn't know how to read the signs. Reminds me of a story of a newly minted NBA player who found the training so intense that he started pissing blood. For him that was enough and he quit the whole thing, fame and fortune be damned. Had he pushed anyway, he would have been sort of like this Uber engineer. Except it's much easier to know something is wrong when it's one day physically obvious than when a dark cloud creeps in on you gradually. Hence the compassion, and a warning for others in similar position to check in on themselves frequently. And maybe to spend some time contemplating on what they really want from life.
Sometimes it's a sign of having a realistic outlook on things and not sugar coating them, too.
Said every asshole ever
NO organization conducting a credit check is going to say, "Oh, you've got 50,000 options of Uber? That's as good as money in the bank... of course we'll give you millions of dollars."
When I was out of work for eight months (2013-2014), my credit union gave me $2,500 loan to cover a month of expenses between accepting the contract and starting the contract for my current job. I submitted my resume, signed contract and start date. I repaid the loan in 18 months.
Did I mentioned that I was out of work for two years (2009-2010) and filed for Chapter Seven bankruptcy?
If he financed them, then he had to prove he actually was credit-worthy, which means that he's proven he can make the payments.
I could probably qualify for $50K+ in credit cards. Doesn't mean that I have the cash flow to pay them back.
I suspect your friend is stressed out more because he has a job that requires him to actually work [...]
He probably got laid off in the last round of layoffs at Cisco. When I got laid off in 2013, all the Indians in middle management got let go. That shocked all the Indians.
[...] allow him to sit on Slashdot all day telling people, "I'm reading here while my scripts run," [...]
When I worked at Cisco, I spent my free time at work reading the CCNA certification book and playing with my Cisco rack at home. That was my on the job training. I had no time for Slashdot then.
It's an anti-social company that's a horrible place to work. Everybody knows that by now.
What nobody can know for sure is why an individual takes his life, or what circumstances would have to be different.
Take Google, which in several recent lists is the best company in America to work for. Google has just shy of 60,000 employees. Given the US suicide rate of 46/100,000, if Google were largely reflective of that you'd expect 28 suicides/year among Google employees. Of course (a) not all Google employees are Americans and (b) Google employees are economically better off than most people in their societies, so you'd expect there to be a lower rate of suicide. But it's safe to assume a dozen Google employees a year take their lives.
And if you look at them as individuals, you'd inevitably suspect work stress was involved, and if you'd look you'd probably find it -- because it's a chicken-or-egg thing. Suicide is a catastrophic loss of coping ability; when you head that way you will find trouble everywhere you turn.
When something like this happens to an individual, everyone feels the need to know why -- even strangers. But that's the one thing you can never know for certain. Now if suicide rates were high for Uber, then statistically you could determine to what degree you should be certain that Uber is a killing its employees with a bad work environment (or perhaps selecting at-risk employees).
I think its inevitable and understandable that this man's family blames Uber. And it's very likely that this will be yet another PR debacle for the company. But the skeptic in me says we just can't know whether Uber has any responsibility for the result.
Post may contain irony: discontinue use if experiencing mood swings, nausea or elevated blood pressure.
Sounds like something the boss would get in trouble with HR for.
So you had proof of income sufficient to cover the amount of the loan, and no other outstanding credit, given your recent bankruptcy.
I opened a secured credit card account three months after my bankruptcy, as recommended by most financial advisers. Three years later, my credit score was where it was prior to the Great Recession. The bankruptcy had zero impact on my life.
[...] "I had options in some small hot startup and the bank gave me a 50k loan," [...]
From what I've been reading, "options in some small hot startup" aren't worth shit.
So you have a friend, but you're not sure if he was laid off in the last round of layoffs?
If you re-read my comment, I wrote "I knew a Cisco engineer". I didn't say he was my friend. I'm a contractor. I don't have friends at work because I'm here today and gone tomorrow.
Pretty solid friendship, man. I bet you even remember his name, MOST of the time.
This guy was one of a handful of Indians who debated car specs outside my cube. No, I don't remember his name. But he did teach me how to use Wireshark to survey wireless access points on a floor.
All that Cisco certification, and still only 50k a year fixing windows laptops. Aim high, bro. Aim high.
I read the Cisco certification book. I spent $1,500 on Cisco rack (four routers, three switches and related equipment). I haven't done Cisco certification. My goal for this year is the Security+ and ITIL Foundation certifications to match my peers. I'll probably take the Cisco Security certification next year.
Uber has turned the potential golden goose of transportation business models into Goose Liver Pâté by taking an overly aggressive and paranoid market stance and pushing its engineers past the breaking point. Lyft is looking much better by comparison. Having worked for companies who demanded 80 hour weeks and working through vacation time, I've come to conclude life is more valuable than that.
Sometimes being an a-hole is a sign of metal illness as well. I think we should all slow down and not be quick to judge.
Sometimes it's a sign of having a realistic outlook on things and not sugar coating them, too.
It's usually a sign of having a rather sheltered existence and an entitled attitude, without ever having been in his position.
Sadly, I've already commented and I don't use sockpuppet accounts, so I don't have a way to mod this up to the 5 that it deserves.
I've read a lot of comments dissing managers for not being more... "managerial", I suppose. Reading this story, this manager was obviously top-notch, perceptive, and concerned about the health of his staff. (I hope he was good at the task-related responsibilities, too, and paid a LOT for his skillset. People like that are rare.)
I don't want to sound like a crusty old fart, but... until you've been there, there's a lot you don't understand. Of course, everything I'm about to say applies to people who actually give a shit, as I endeavored to. The frat-boy types (see also: Wall St.) don't give a shit, never will, and you're on your own. That said:
How do you get to be a manager? At places like IBM, you're chosen carefully, put through a lot of training, and monitored closely. At startups, SV, Wall St.- frat boy crap- you're the person who can keep headaches away from your boss. That's about it. At a startup about 17 years ago, I was cast into a managerial role over 8 people with no preparation whatsoever. I read a lot of books because I wanted to make an honest go of it, but it wasn't really enough. Training? Hah. Sure, I cared, but I didn't have the skillset, and I was too busy trying to get things done to be as attentive as I should have been.
Fortunately, I didn't lose anyone, and I like to think that I was good enough that I got some things done and remain on good terms with most of my staff long after my/our departure.
I'll leave you with the following thoughts:
1. The best thing you can do for a manager is police the BS. This doesn't mean compromise yourself, rather, try to work through your issues before invoking the system.
2. Managers aren't gods. I once made one of my staff (VERY highly rated and regarded) listen in on a call I placed to the CEO where I got in his face about why the employee's raise hadn't been approved. The CEO blew me off (unsurprisingly, it was that kind of place) but remember: it's a lot easier to get computers to bend to your will than other people with their own agenda.
3. I will never manage again. I'll PM from time to time, but I don't need the MITM crap. Line managers are woefully underpaid. Unfortunately, the salaries don't really start to change until you're the step above line, and then you're surrounded by asskissers that present their own set of problems.
I mean, granted it may be more of a contractor thing, but who makes friends at "work"? I mean, you go there to earn money and leave for the day, period.
Oh man, I'm sad for you after that comment. I understand work/life separation and all that, and I can also be painfully introverted, but if you form no meaningful relationships someplace you spend half of your waking life, I hope you'll reevaluate your priorities. It's not like you have to go to each other's family events or be besties or anything, but if you don't have someone at work who you trust enough to really know how each other is doing, might I humbly suggest you're missing out and there are better workplaces to invest your time.
If you don't like your job or feel intense pressure at work that you can't take it. Fucking quit! He apparently had the skills to turn around and probably get an offer by the end of the week! Millennials....
You'd be surprised. Depressed people can come off as pretty much normal when interacting with people. Their productivity will probably be dismal, so a manager might pick up on it.
"When you have eliminated the unacceptable, whatever is left, however improbable, must be the truthiness" - Holmes
If he was clinically depressed to the point of suicide, he fell under the Americans with Disabilities Act, and Uber was required to seek reasonable accommodations for his problem.
"When you have eliminated the unacceptable, whatever is left, however improbable, must be the truthiness" - Holmes
I'd suspect he suffered from depression. Stress can aggravate it.
"When you have eliminated the unacceptable, whatever is left, however improbable, must be the truthiness" - Holmes
Tack on the bullshit of community property, the housing bubble pop, a special-needs kid, and having seen what state "hospitals" did to a family member. Then every bully that is rewarded with a promotion, every predatory co-worker, every lying fat-cat executive with a goofy name, every abusive boss becomes a direct threat to your family's future. That, my friends, is stress. For those who've never been to the Silly Valley in recent years: everyone is competing with everyone else, 24 hours a day. There is no off / down time, ever. Housing has become so escalated -- thanks to the bullshit companies who insist that employees relocate there -- that the $ amount listed in the article could maybe get them an hourly rental with an hour commute. The entire region is a karmic black hole.
You know what? You can both simultaneously feel compassion for the guy and his family AND believe that what he did is wrong.
They're not mutually exclusive.
I work with people I consider friends/get along with/work with.
Some, I'd confide in if needed.
Others, I KNOW they are the worst possible choice for that.
Everyone I know at work is classified in some way in my head. there's the guy you can't joke about animals with, the lady who gossips about everything, the lady who will throw you under the bus at a moments notice. these are just some examples.
Knowing this, you modulate your behavior around them.
The under the bus lady has a huge amount of knowledge about gardening. I ask her for tips. I know that's what shes good for. But not for opening up, certainly not.
Unless you've lived through a toxic work environment. You can't understand it. I once had a job with such a level of incomprehensible workload: The manager would load you up and expected everyone not to get through it. We believe he had asperger's as well. HR was unresponsive. Three team members had left after shouting matches.
I found myself, one morning, staring at a screen with an unfixable issue and realized I'd been staring for 30 minutes. No work, no problem solving, not even daydreaming.Just blank staring with shaky hands..
So I got up, went downstairs to HR and quit.
HR herded me into Stress leave ( Staffing was low, they were getting hammered over people quitting, stress leave was better on their numbers). I had 5 weeks off to sit in therapy sessions with people who had it worse than me, to learn how to handle this.
When I came back, nothing bothered me and I often told my manager what he was asking for was impossible. He'd pop a vein, I'd say "Sorry, but that's just how it is. If you'd like, I can verify this in writing". Six months later, I found a new job and did quit.
Speaking as someone who suffers from severe depression (coming up on a decade of official diagnosis), I do everything I can to avoid my co-workers and deflect their earnest questions about my well-being.
It's not that I'm ashamed of my depression: I'm very open about it amongst friends and family, a small part of trying to turn down the stigma of it. But I would never tell my co-workers: I don't want to pull them into this at all, and I fear their pity. As much as I hate myself now, it would be even worse if I knew people were treating me with kid gloves, because I would be causing extra stress for them. The only reason the company owners know is because I revealed during a particularly rough mental state. But they don't know what to do, and I don't expect them, and I sort of don't want them to, as well.