Slashdot Mirror


Did A Billionaire Harvest Big Data From Facebook To 'Hijack' Democracy? (theguardian.com)

Long-time Slashdot readers walterbyrd and whoever57 both submitted the same article about the mysterious data analytics company Cambridge Analytica and its activities with SCL Group, a 25-year-old military psyops company in the U.K. later bought by "secretive hedge fund billionaire" Robert Mercer. One former employee calls it "this dark, dystopian data company that gave the world Trump." Facebook was the source of the psychological insights that enabled Cambridge Analytica to target individuals. It was also the mechanism that enabled them to be delivered on a large scale. The company also (perfectly legally) bought consumer datasets -- on everything from magazine subscriptions to airline travel -- and uniquely it appended these with the psych data to voter files... Finding "persuadable" voters is key for any campaign and with its treasure trove of data, Cambridge Analytica could target people high in neuroticism, for example, with images of immigrants "swamping" the country. The key is finding emotional triggers for each individual voter. Cambridge Analytica worked on campaigns in several key states for a Republican political action committee. Its key objective, according to a memo the Observer has seen, was "voter disengagement" and "to persuade Democrat voters to stay at home"... In the U.S., the government is bound by strict laws about what data it can collect on individuals. But, for private companies anything goes.
A branch of this company reportedly also received half the campaign budgets of four pro-Brexit campaign groups, and there's some dark talk about "military-funded technology that has been harnessed by a global plutocracy...being used to sway elections in ways that people can't even see." The article notes the two firms have plied their services in Russia as well as Lithuania and the Ukraine, and suggests that "we are in the midst of a massive land grab for power by billionaires via our data. Data which is being silently amassed, harvested and stored."

452 comments

  1. Just the beginning by volodymyrbiryuk · · Score: 5, Informative

    and it won't stop as long as these "persuadable" voters make their decisions based on facebook posts.

    --
    sudo rm -r -f --no-preserve-root /
    1. Re:Just the beginning by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Don't worry. I'm sure the human race will become enlightened and wise any moment now.

    2. Re: Just the beginning by fubarrr · · Score: 0

      Go drink vodka Volodya

    3. Re:Just the beginning by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You've actually reversed it. People base their facebook posts on their voting decisions.

    4. Re:Just the beginning by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Informative

      Or 30+ years of political experience, in-depth exposure to and familiarity with US law, experience with international relations, military operations, and other required skills. Instead, this campaign let Bozo get elected because he was orange and talked down to women and treated them as objects. You're 1/2 already, but still no Trump or Putin.

    5. Re:Just the beginning by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Or vapid, vacuous candidacies based on nothing more than having a vagina...

      Ah, so the choice was between an arsehole and a vagina.
      Nope, it still doesn't make sense.

    6. Re:Just the beginning by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yeah, fuck decades of experience, altruism, and understanding the system, right?
      How dare a candidate actually have thoroughly thought-out and actionable policy proposals instead of only shouting hate and lies!

    7. Re:Just the beginning by TheRaven64 · · Score: 4, Insightful
      That's not the problem. The problem is that a company like Facebook knows:
      • Roughly how old you are (at least enough to tell whether you're of voting age)
      • Where you live (roughly if it has to guess from IP addresses, precisely, if you've ever bought anything from a company that shares data with Facebook).
      • What news articles you read (what issues are important to you?)
      • What news articles you share (what are your opinions on the issues that are important to you?)

      This is enough that they can identify what ads to show you to influence your opinion (Candidate X strongly supports issue Y), but more importantly they can share this info with canvassers who can target the undecided votes in a constituency and knock on their doors and say 'have you thought about [issue that we know is your number one priority], are you aware that our candidate believes [exactly what you believe]?'.

      --
      I am TheRaven on Soylent News
    8. Re:Just the beginning by gweihir · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Indeed. The Brexit and Trump are the most stupid things voters did recently, but they are not unique. The vulnerability here are voters without a clue about reality. That one cannot easily be fixed, but throwing the staff and financiers of such companies in jail would be a start.

      --
      Most ACs are not even worth the keystrokes to insult them. Be generically insulted by this and ignored otherwise.
    9. Re:Just the beginning by Kiuas · · Score: 4, Interesting

      This is enough that they can identify what ads to show you to influence your opinion (Candidate X strongly supports issue Y), but more importantly they can share this info with canvassers who can target the undecided votes in a constituency and knock on their doors and say 'have you thought about [issue that we know is your number one priority], are you aware that our candidate believes [exactly what you believe]?

      Yup. And this isn't even the worst of it, they can also do the opposite and create targeted attack ads. "Did you know the other candidate is doing [thing that you're strongly opposed to]?" And it doesn't even need to be true because these can be masked by creating blogs on 'alternative media' and conspiracy sites with no official link to the campaign. In other words. this sort of targeting allows targeted deception of the voterbase with little to no actual consequences.

      --
      "It is the business of the future to be dangerous" -Alfred North Whitehead
    10. Re:Just the beginning by CrimsonAvenger · · Score: 1

      They know all that...

      This is enough that they can identify what ads to show you to influence your opinion

      But do they know that I use an adblocker? Only time I've seen an ad online this century was when I switched browsers and had to download a new adblocker for the new browser. That must have been the best part of 20 minutes when I could see ads this century....

      --

      "I do not agree with what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it"
    11. Re:Just the beginning by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0, Interesting

      in-depth exposure to and familiarity with US law, experience with international relations, military operations, and other required skills

      That's an awesome comment. Hillary's familiarity with US law comes mostly from stonewalling grand juries, special Investigators, and congressional investigations for her numerous illegal dealings.

      International relations? Pffft. She was a failure during her internship at the State Department.

      And military operations? You mean like running across tarmacs to avoid snipers? Oh wait, she lied about that too.

    12. Re:Just the beginning by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Interesting

      > voters make their decisions based on facebook posts

      As opposed to what? The paranoid ravings of journalists who see some big conspiracy behind everyone they disagree with?

      Every month they come up with some other bullshit: fake news, bots, russians, alt right, Facebook posts, some billionaire, etc. These nutjobs whipped themselves into a mass hysteria because people dare oppose their views.

    13. Re:Just the beginning by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

      Or 30+ years of political experience, in-depth exposure to and familiarity with US law, experience with international relations, military operations, and other required skills. Instead, this campaign let Bozo get elected because he was orange and talked down to women and treated them as objects. You're 1/2 already, but still no Trump or Putin.

      The butthurt is strong in this one!

      If the Horrendous Harridan was so fucking competent, why'd she run such an utter train-wreck of a campaign?

      Hillary! LOST!!! BWAAA HAAA HAA!

      America lost.

    14. Re:Just the beginning by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      and it won't stop as long as these "persuadable" voters make their decisions based on facebook posts.

      Or vapid, vacuous candidacies based on nothing more than having a vagina...

      Relax man. The longer they spend time trying to figure out why their unlikable warmongering criminal-grandma didn't win due to "outside factors", the longer they'll go losing seats all across the board letting the decent people of the US get some stuff done.

    15. Re:Just the beginning by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Interesting

      The vulnerability here are voters without a clue about reality. That one cannot easily be fixed, but throwing the staff and financiers of such companies in jail would be a start.

      Does that include companies like The Guardian too? They're one of the biggest culprits when it comes to trying to influence clueless voters with their version of reality. Hell, these demagogues are still peddling the "Pepe is racist hate speech" nonsense, on their frontpage no less.

    16. Re:Just the beginning by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      ^Found the neurotic easily persuaded target.

    17. Re:Just the beginning by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      People who are "swayed" by this sort of tactics would not be intelligent enough to run adblockers. Or to not click on phishing links.

      --sf

    18. Re:Just the beginning by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      YEAY ! distopian future begins now !

    19. Re:Just the beginning by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      >warmongering
      current president is worse. the defense industry found out he is much easier buy-able than H.

    20. Re:Just the beginning by loonycyborg · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Both Brexit and Trump are examples of votes where there were designated "right" solution and designated "wrong" solution. If the "wrong" decision is objectively wrong then there's no need to put it into the ballots in the first place. So any vote that have only one designated right option is not vote at all, and shouldn't have happened in the first place. So you may consider that people chose "wrong" option as protest against this false democracy. If people's votes don't matter then there's no way they could make a stupid vote, or any meaningful vote at all beside a vote of non-confidence.

    21. Re:Just the beginning by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0, Funny

      take your meds its important

    22. Re:Just the beginning by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      the president has been caught LYING again and again with evidence in twitter or video

    23. Re: Just the beginning by Zero__Kelvin · · Score: 2

      Trumps small handwringing is even funnier! :^)

      --
      Guns don't kill people; Physics kills people! - John Lithgow as Dick Solomon on Third Rock From The Sun
    24. Re:Just the beginning by Z00L00K · · Score: 4, Insightful

      30+ years of political experience also means 30+ years of being exposed to corruption and becoming a stagnant and stale piece in the political field.

      The latest US presidential election was a lose-lose situation. Overall the election highlights that the US election system has become pretty stale. A transit to the election pattern that France uses would be a step forward. But that would hurt both the Democrats and the Republicans.

      --
      If builders built buildings the way programmers wrote programs, then the first woodpecker would destroy civilization.
    25. Re:Just the beginning by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Or 30+ years of political experience..

      Given how utterly fucking corrupt politicians become after spending an extended amount of time doing that job, this is becoming more of a questionable trait rather than some kind of badge of honor.

      ...in-depth exposure to and familiarity with US law, experience with international relations, military operations, and other required skills.

      And what did all that experience bring us? Whitewater. Benghazi. Leaked classified information and coverups. I rest my fucking case regarding corruption.

    26. Re:Just the beginning by Tranzistors · · Score: 3, Insightful

      That must have been the best part of 20 minutes when I could see ads this century

      You mean overt ads. Ads that are integrated into the content are not skipable. And we are not even talking about positive feedback loops in curated feeds.

    27. Re:Just the beginning by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Distopian future began January 1980. It's merely been accelerating since then.

      Now shut up, have your citizenshp papers ready, pee in this jar while preparing to strip naked before you can travel across state lines to get a new job. And have your passwords handy so that we can check the contents of your phone, tablet, and laptop.

    28. Re:Just the beginning by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0, Flamebait

      Not a fan of Clinton (both of them!) by a long stretch...

      but compared to them Trump's a major catastrophe. Really.

    29. Re:Just the beginning by GLMDesigns · · Score: 1

      30 years experience?

      Really?

      She was a one term senator and a secretary of state for one term. She was not particularly distinguished in either role.

      Oh. She was the wife of a governor and president. Sorry Charlie, that doesn't count.

      --
      If you're scared of your govt then you need to further restrict its powers
      Vote 3rd Party in 2016 and beyond
    30. Re: Just the beginning by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      And in your own mind, his whole argument just got erased... like overwriting a buffer that only contains 100 characters.

    31. Re:Just the beginning by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      But her emails...

    32. Re:Just the beginning by jarle.aase · · Score: 5, Interesting

      If we assert that human brains are nothing more than complex state machines with lots of individual properties and variations - then it's obvious that if someone have the data and algorithms to predict how to alter the current state of individuals into a more desired state - and the infrastructure to deliver state-altering stimuli, then that's exactly what they will do. That's a predictable move. To say that those who do this is evil or saints is just a matter of perspective about the desired outcome.

    33. Re:Just the beginning by GLMDesigns · · Score: 1

      So. People are stupid if they disagree with you?

      Suit yourself.

      --
      If you're scared of your govt then you need to further restrict its powers
      Vote 3rd Party in 2016 and beyond
    34. Re: Just the beginning by Zero__Kelvin · · Score: 1

      It still gets under his skin. How sad. Terrible. He will no doubt soon launch an investigation :-)

      --
      Guns don't kill people; Physics kills people! - John Lithgow as Dick Solomon on Third Rock From The Sun
    35. Re:Just the beginning by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      But do they know that I use an adblocker?

      Yes, most likely.

      It's no big thing for the the ad networks to send ping backs each time they get a referrer with your domain on. Any user with page views that are missing ping backs don't view ads.

    36. Re:Just the beginning by dbIII · · Score: 2
      There's a long list of reasons why they should be ignored especially now.
      The main one would be that none of those contributed much to her loss. She failed to get the attention of what is supposed to be the Democrat "core" demographic, average people with average jobs, and put a focus on special cases instead. Most Americans appears to think so little of their country to bother to go out and vote so complacency about the sort of people that always vote Democrat was fatal. Trump wasn't complacent about the people who always vote Republican and it appears that they did bother to turn up and vote instead of staying home.

      I can't imagine why she lost the election it must be "the Russians"

      Even though that may not have had much of an impact do you really think that sort of thing should be encouraged? There's a disturbing amount of Putin loving going on from people who should know better and would be called traitors in another situation.

    37. Re:Just the beginning by GLMDesigns · · Score: 1

      Obama is out of office. Keep up with the time.

      "You can keep your doctor ..."
      Benghazi was a spontaneous riot caused by an anti Islam film (This is more Hillary than Obama.)

      --
      If you're scared of your govt then you need to further restrict its powers
      Vote 3rd Party in 2016 and beyond
    38. Re:Just the beginning by dbIII · · Score: 4, Insightful

      30+ years of being exposed to corruption

      I still find it incredibly funny that people think anybody at all in US politics is less corrupt than a casino owning property developer. Atlantic City is such a bastion of law and order after all.

    39. Re: Just the beginning by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      > Trump doesn't care about you or this country, all he cares about is getting money.

      To add to which, he's a drooling idiot, and/or he's a sad old man with incipient dementia.

      This was clear before the election, but somehow you scions of the master race failed to spot that.

    40. Re:Just the beginning by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      >If you're scared of your govt then you need to further restrict its powers
      I Am more scared of unrestricted corporations, which is why we need more powerful checks on them by government. This only works if the government isnt controlled by big corp, like it is today.

    41. Re:Just the beginning by serviscope_minor · · Score: 1, Flamebait

      Both Brexit and Trump are examples of votes where there were designated "right" solution and designated "wrong" solutionApparently though,

      No not "designated", "obviously". As in, Brexit was obviously the wrong move. However, many people are impervious to evidence, no matter how obvious it makes a point.

      To say there was a designated outcome is facile. There was a leave campaign for Brexit (as well as a remain one) run by a bunch of the people in power. They called it the official campaign and lied egregiously.

      If the "wrong" decision is objectively wrong then there's no need to put it into the ballots in the first place.

      Another facile comment. In the case of Trump/Clinton, it was an election. You have those very 4 years, it's not like you can avoid putting it to the ballot. In the case of Brexit, yes it was completely the wrong move. It was a mix of the Tories not wanting to share power with the lib-dems again combined with some political infighting. There was no need to go to the ballot over that. And making such a major change on a simple majority was beyond stupid.

      So you may consider that people chose "wrong" option as protest against this false democracy.

      Yeah well, protest votes count. In the case of the US anyone who protest voted did it by voting for the party of evil. I mean, what else would you describe a party that makes rape a preexisting medical condition so coverage can be denied, but not, say, erectile dysfunction.

      At some point, you have to take responsibility for your actions. If you vote for the far worse evil, you have some responsibility for their actions.

      --
      SJW n. One who posts facts.
    42. Re: Just the beginning by ganjadude · · Score: 0

      no, you guys lost because you honestly believe this though

      --
      have you seen my sig? there are many others like it but none that are the same
    43. Re:Just the beginning by mi · · Score: 2

      As opposite to newspaper articles?

      --
      In Soviet Washington the swamp drains you.
    44. Re:Just the beginning by mi · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Or 30+ years of political experience, in-depth exposure to and familiarity with US law, experience with international relations, military operations, and other required skills.

      So you voted for McCain, not Obama, right?

      --
      In Soviet Washington the swamp drains you.
    45. Re:Just the beginning by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      See, there's three kinds of people: dicks, pussies, and assholes. Pussies think everyone can get along, and dicks just want to fuck all the time without thinking it through. But then you got your assholes, Chuck. And all the assholes want us to shit all over everything! So, pussies may get mad at dicks once in a while, because pussies get fucked by dicks. But dicks also fuck assholes, Chuck. And if they didn't fuck the assholes, you know what you'd get? You'd get your dick and your pussy all covered in shit!

    46. Re:Just the beginning by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I would reply with a list of lies and falsehoods by Trump, but there is so many, so I will just give you a link to his twitter :
      https://twitter.com/realDonald...
      Careful, there is an occasional truth here and there (like Australia having better healthcare)

    47. Re:Just the beginning by Freischutz · · Score: 1

      So. People are stupid if they disagree with you?

      That depends entirely upon what it is that we disagree about.

    48. Re:Just the beginning by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      No. There are just "alternate".

    49. Re:Just the beginning by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I still find it incredibly funny that people think anybody at all in US politics is less corrupt than a casino owning property developer. Atlantic City is such a bastion of law and order after all.

      You must think the government-run lotteries across the country are also corrupt, then, because gambling, right? Don't forget all those casinos owned and run by Native Americans. You would never call them corrupt, right?

      People who hate for no good reason are the funniest of all. What a joke!

    50. Re:Just the beginning by ganjadude · · Score: 1

      why would you be scared of an entity you dont have to interact with?

      --
      have you seen my sig? there are many others like it but none that are the same
    51. Re:Just the beginning by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Maybe they were voting against the evil party that kills its citizens with drones without a warrant, charges, trail, or conviction.
      They also make jokes about killing foreigners that point out their corruption as well.

    52. Re: Just the beginning by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      > You basically elected, into the most powerful position in the entire world, a rich narcissistic sociopath with zero political experience or self-control, who has never done a single thing in his life for his country or other people.

      Golly that sounds just like Obama who was, and is, all too happy to support White Globalism, which you identify with and you blindly hate the right.

      You feel like you're losing all the entitlements and benefits you had as self-smug self-righteous person because you thought the the right thoughts and blame it on "old white men" because that's who you're told to hate today by the propaganda you THINK you're railing against.

      Trump's right and you hate the right because they demand people actually contribute to society and think that words should actually mean things along with science instead of just doing what feels good du jour. That's why Richard Nixon created the EPA and not Kennedy or Johnson.

      It means you voted for Hillary even though she had abused her position as Secretary of State to leak trade secrets to further ingratiate her rich (white male) friends who, in turn, would bankroll her run for Presidency. It's why she sent the emails to her private servers so she could keep these discussions off the record. She out right LIED to the public about Benghazi and threw a man in jail for making a YouTube video to give political cover for her statements (which, if it had been any other white male candidate with an R behind their name Slashdot AND YOU would've screamed to high hell about it and run endless articles, like this one, but no... that's just another lie in your smug little brain - better to believe the aasier story that nazis have taken over America, led by the Russians.

      Here's a clue twit - Hillary NEVER CARED about you or this country, all she cared about was getting political power and money.

      Now tell me again about Obama getting $400,000 for one speech to Wall Street.

    53. Re:Just the beginning by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I use ublock origin and yet I still see ads. Not nearly as many as without, but still see them. Hell, /. has ads that aren't blocked by it. There's one about IP addresses right there on their main page. Though to their credit they make it a different color to show that it's sponsored content and don't try to hide it.

    54. Re: Just the beginning by Trondheim · · Score: 5, Insightful

      You voted for Trump because you identify with his white nationalism and you blindly hate the left. You feel like you're losing all the entitlements and benefits you had as a white male and you blame it on women and minorities....

      As a white male, this is the funniest thing I've read all day! In all seriousness, though, THIS is the reason why Trump won. Average people who go to work every day, spend time with the family, and try to be involved in their communities are tired of being labeled, called names, told they're meanies, etc. when they don't agree with mouth-foaming liberals. Liberals have nobody to blame but yourselves for Trump.

    55. Re:Just the beginning by kilfarsnar · · Score: 1

      and it won't stop as long as these "persuadable" voters make their decisions based on facebook posts.

      Oh, it won't stop there either. If Facebook stops being an effective vector, they'll move to something else. Propaganda is an ancient art. Technology and the fact that so many people are volunteering their personal information, just make it more effective.

      Everyone should read the article linked behind "a global plutocracy" in the summary above. https://www.theguardian.com/po... This is a very well organized and funded campaign. The average person, being unaware of even the possibility of doing what they are doing, has no defense against it. People call me paranoid and a conspiracy theorist when I say that society and culture are being engineered behind the scenes. Well, read the article and see if you can honestly tell me you don't think so too.

      --
      "What the American public doesn't know is what makes them the American public." -Ray Zalinsky (Tommy Boy)
    56. Re:Just the beginning by tommeke100 · · Score: 1

      newsflash: this is how facebook makes money. It's hardly a secret.
      You want to target all females age 16 - 45 in your small city for your new trendy fashion store? That's 50$. Try to beat that coverage with the cost of printing flyers, posters and running ads on the local radio and TV station.

    57. Re:Just the beginning by GLMDesigns · · Score: 0

      I'm for Brexit. According to the OP then I'm stupi (or to put it more precisely I was for a "stupid thing").

      I don't think Brexit is stupid. I think the EU has overstepped it's bounds and is now a runaway bureaucracy.

      No matter the view point it is foolish to simply ignore your opponents as simply "stupid." Even young-earthers should not be so simply swept away. Their arguments must be met. This holds true with tenants of Islam, with flat-earthers, with 911 hoaxers, etc.... Meet the arguments head on.

      --
      If you're scared of your govt then you need to further restrict its powers
      Vote 3rd Party in 2016 and beyond
    58. Re:Just the beginning by blahplusplus · · Score: 2

      "So. People are stupid if they disagree with you?"

      You make it sound like its not complicated, it is VERY complicated because science is discovering people are NOT authorities on what they do and don't know about themselves and the errors in their own views and reasoning. See the science:

      On reason

    59. Re:Just the beginning by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      and it won't stop as long as these "persuadable" voters make their decisions based on facebook posts.

      Or vapid, vacuous candidacies based on nothing more than having a vagina...

      Or looking like one.

    60. Re:Just the beginning by kilfarsnar · · Score: 5, Insightful

      The butthurt is strong in this one!

      If the Horrendous Harridan was so fucking competent, why'd she run such an utter train-wreck of a campaign?

      Hillary! LOST!!! BWAAA HAAA HAA!

      So, tell me, are you part of what is described in the summary and articles? I have noticed that since shortly before the election, all of the message boards I participate in have been swarmed with right-wing trolls. And I do mean all of them. The vast majority are just like you; hurling stupid insults and trying to get under people's skin and provoke an emotional response. Either Trump's supporters just all decided to get active online at the same time, or there is a coordinated effort going on. Knowing what I do about social manipulation, I suspect the latter.

      So are you one of them? Do you get paid for this? Are you merely a computer program? These are the questions we need to ask, at least to ourselves, when reading comment sections and other social media. Well funded organizations are working to manipulate and influence what we think, what our values are and how we view the world. Let's at least keep an eye out for it.

      --
      "What the American public doesn't know is what makes them the American public." -Ray Zalinsky (Tommy Boy)
    61. Re: Just the beginning by moehoward · · Score: 3, Interesting

      My 2 cents on why I voted for Trump as a white male, middle-class, technology-employed, highly-educated (CS degree and 2 Masters) guy.

      1) Taxes - As someone fairly educated on economics, Clinton had zero tax/economic policy. I wish she did, so I could compare. I easily could see myself voting for Clinton, despite her personal failings. But, Trump campaigned on a reasonable corporate tax plan that I see as key to growth.

      2) Education - As a father of 2 kids who went through (or finishing) a public education in a wealthy suburb, I was horrified at Common Core and other federally mandated (dept of ed) baloney. My gosh. Clinton had really no stand here (other than free community college), while Trump was clearly against central federal involvement to the level that we had achieved over the previous 16 years.

      3) Illegal immigration - Yes, I took all those many hours and tons of effort to actually type the word "illegal" in front of the word "immigration". Amazing how this issue is talked about as the "immigration" issue, as if it is so freaking difficult to put the word "illegal" in front of the word. I have illegals living in a rental next door to me. It is a revolving door of tenants, but the drug dealing, uninsured driving, drug use, and other bad behavior makes this issue VERY local for me. All politics are local and I ALWAYS will vote in my own self interest. My local police behave in sanctuary city mode (even though we are not), and refuse to turn these folks over to ICE after the continuous strings of arrests/traffic stops. Clinton framed this issue as nothing more than "Trump is against immigrants." Why couldn't she just propose a comprehensive low-wage immigrant worker program? I mean, that is what the country ultimately needs. I would have voted for her if she had such a plan. She did not.

      4) Open source - Well, I mean "open". Trump talked to the press and anyone who would listen. Clinton gave canned speeches to small groups of supporters. She basically never gave press conferences. I just wanted to hear what she had to say about issues, but I strained to hear her message from her mouth during any phase of the campaign. If she would have been able to explain her positions (whether I agreed or disagreed), then I would have been comfortable voting for her.

      5) Terrorism/Syria - The Benghazi thing sort of put a lot of questions in my head. My feeling is that Clinton phoned-in her tenure at State. She was granted a Senator seat in NY. Trump, though, had a well-storied history (past and current) of being a tireless 16-hour-a-day worker. I suppose that this sort of goes to character for me. I didn't like either of their personalities, but so what.

      6) ACA - I can do math. I have an understanding of models. The ACA is doomed by math. Clinton would not say the obvious. Why not?

      Ultimately, the president in the US is not king/queen. But, because it is our only elected national office, it gives our nutty press/entertainment industry something to rally around. I thought the election was totally entertaining. I love watching all the "protests" and the frothing at the mouth by singers and actors. If the corporate tax rate gets lowered, illegal immigration is somewhat stemmed, the dept of ed gets a smack down, and the ACA gets replaced with a workable plan, then I'm good and we will have moved forward, as we always do.

      --
      "If you want to improve, be content to be thought foolish and stupid." - Epictetus
    62. Re:Just the beginning by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Your entire post doesn't give one actual fact to support that either Brexit was bad, or that Republicans are the part of evil. You state it like it's fact and your supporting evidence is a combination of your own opinion and lies. Rape is not considered a pre-existing condition that can deny eligibility under the AHCA. You read the bullshit propoganda (lies) spread by a bunch of assholes and consider it truth. You wasted so many keystrokes on a post that was complete bullshit. Brexit had very compelling reasons to be on the ballot. Just like Scotland's independence. Getting out of the crushing and likely failing EU would be wise for any country other than those like Greece which use it as a crutch to continue to rule their lands via bankruptcy. You are one of the prime candidates for psychological advertisement. Your brain is mush and so easily made to believe anything the left farts out.

    63. Re:Just the beginning by kilfarsnar · · Score: 1

      They know all that...

      This is enough that they can identify what ads to show you to influence your opinion

      But do they know that I use an adblocker? Only time I've seen an ad online this century was when I switched browsers and had to download a new adblocker for the new browser. That must have been the best part of 20 minutes when I could see ads this century....

      Of course they know you use an ad blocker. That's one more data point they have about you..

      --
      "What the American public doesn't know is what makes them the American public." -Ray Zalinsky (Tommy Boy)
    64. Re:Just the beginning by Sperbels · · Score: 1

      Just the beginning? No, it's just more of the same. This stuff has never stopped happening since the stone age.

    65. Re:Just the beginning by argStyopa · · Score: 1

      Wait, so you're suggesting that being part of a giant hive-mind of attention-deficit, poorly educated know-nothings might be corrosive to democracy?

      What?

      --
      -Styopa
    66. Re:Just the beginning by loonycyborg · · Score: 1

      To say there was a designated outcome is facile. There was a leave campaign for Brexit (as well as a remain one) run by a bunch of the people in power. They called it the official campaign and lied egregiously.

      But it was said many times(even you confirm it) that people in power who contributed to "leave" campaign didn't expect it to succeed and participated in it as part of a political game. This is exactly what makes me think that that vote was fake. Both "remain" and "leave" were created by competing parts of the Establishment as part of a political game and even leavers didn't really want it. You can consider the outcome to be vote of non-confidence for both of those factions. Same applies to Trump. In course of their political games reps and dems decided that Hilary becomes the Queen next, so they pruned the candidates accordingly. Kicked out Bernie and chose Trump as second candidate as he was considered too politically incorrect to be elected. And other parties weren't considered because the public is conditioned to never vote for them to avoid "wasting" their votes. They could as well not exist.

    67. Re: Just the beginning by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Can you explain why it is that the left continually sinks to playground level insults? It's not constructive in any way. It just serves to divide.

    68. Re:Just the beginning by GLMDesigns · · Score: 1

      That did not address the point I was making. Dismissing people as stupid because they disagree with you is not conducive to a free society. Citizens communicate with each other; persuade each other (soap box); and accept the results of elections (ballot box).

      The alternative to being a citizen is be a subject to a ruling class. Your choice.

      Disagree with someone. Fine. Don't simply dismiss your opponents as stupid or evil or fascist (when they're not). That road leads to only one end.

      --
      If you're scared of your govt then you need to further restrict its powers
      Vote 3rd Party in 2016 and beyond
    69. Re:Just the beginning by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If there is a right and wrong solution your "democracy" is already fucked.

    70. Re:Just the beginning by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      There is no "obviously" wrong move. Cherry picking your issues does not clarify a binary decision. Stop whining about people needing to take responsibility.

    71. Re:Just the beginning by king+neckbeard · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Yeah, she's got experience in politics. Experience agreeing with the Republican's biggest mistakes while having enough baggage and inconsistencies to alienate basically everyone. She voted for the Patriot Act and the Iraq War. She shouldn't be running for dog catcher, let alone POTUS. And yes, that applies to the majority of the rest of the Dem leadership too. That's why they've lost at historical levels despite increasingly favorable demographic advantages.

      --
      This is my signature. There are many like it, but this one is mine.
    72. Re:Just the beginning by king+neckbeard · · Score: 1

      Trump being corrupt doesn't change the fact that people don't want to wait in line to vote for someone that makes them want to vomit. Not making Americans vomit was basically all she needed to do to win. Trump is the least popular candidate in US history. He won because the right groups of people hated her more than they hated Trump.

      --
      This is my signature. There are many like it, but this one is mine.
    73. Re:Just the beginning by king+neckbeard · · Score: 1

      Okay...but we're talking about Hillary Clinton here....

      --
      This is my signature. There are many like it, but this one is mine.
    74. Re: Just the beginning by bigwheel · · Score: 1

      Sorry, no mod points. But this is +1 interesting - regardless of who you voted for.

    75. Re:Just the beginning by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Your brain is mush and so easily made to believe anything the left farts out.

      That's another way Progressives go about their indoctrination of unsuspecting minds. Their farts are so chemically toxic that an unprotected brain looses its ability to think two steps ahead. /allegory

    76. Re:Just the beginning by silentcoder · · Score: 1

      Yes, most lotteries are incredibly corrupt, and yes Native American casinos are as corrupt as white owned ones are - though I'm more forgiving of them - they are in the business to feed their kids after the resources that had done so for tens of thousands of years were taken from them by an occupying force from an invading army - very few white casino owners can seriously say if they didn't start robbery-palaces they would have starved instead.

      --
      Unicode killed the ASCII-art *
    77. Re:Just the beginning by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Just summon APK. He could easily be replaced by a small shell script and has professed his undying love for Fuhrer Trump. If I were Trump I would likely disavow the support of people like APK as he makes the skinheads seem sane.

    78. Re:Just the beginning by silentcoder · · Score: 1

      Look I like the occasional anal as much as the next guy but how any straight guy can choose an asshole over a vagina on a permanent basis for four years I don't get.

      And if the asshole you're about to enter is orange, do not proceed - fake a sudden upset tummy and get the hell out of there !

      --
      Unicode killed the ASCII-art *
    79. Re:Just the beginning by Plumpaquatsch · · Score: 1

      Both Brexit and Trump are examples of votes where there were designated "right" solution and designated "wrong" solution.

      And they found the third option and went for the "dumb" solution.

      --
      Of course news about a fake are Fake News.
    80. Re:Just the beginning by bickerdyke · · Score: 2

      I have noticed that since shortly before the election, all of the message boards I participate in have been swarmed with right-wing trolls. And I do mean all of them. The vast majority are just like you; hurling stupid insults and trying to get under people's skin and provoke an emotional response. Either Trump's supporters just all decided to get active online at the same time, or there is a coordinated effort going on. Knowing what I do about social manipulation, I suspect the latter

      Yes, but the coordinated social media activity was a false flag operation by the democrats to make right-wing trolls appear as stupid and insulting hoping that would rub off on the public image of Republicans in general.

      Heck, considering that this was the first election that was decided on which was less hated, both candidates could have been slipped into the opposing party as "poison pill" without any difference whatsoever.

      --
      bickerdyke
    81. Re:Just the beginning by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      >you dont have to interact with?
      are you really that stupid ?

    82. Re: Just the beginning by Maritz · · Score: 1

      Sad!

      --
      I do not want your cheap brainburning drugs. They are useless for work. And I am a working man today.
    83. Re:Just the beginning by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      People have been doing this for ages. It just hasn't been so automated. Con men, great poker players, politicians, lawyers, etc. are examples of people that do this on a "one off" basis.

      Religion is a prime example of gaming the core of the human "state machine" in a way to self propagate.

      Business have been trying to do this at scale for ages and the press, radio and TV advertising was the first major breakthroughs. Now the internet is the next wave.

      The use of newer tech is a bit scary though because of how much power small groups of people can wield with it.

    84. Re:Just the beginning by ShanghaiBill · · Score: 3, Interesting

      The problem with this conspiracy theory is that if the billionaires got to pick the president, it would have been Jeb Bush, not Donald Trump. Do you think that "the elite" wanted TPP cancelled, NAFTA re-negotiated, and subsidized pensions/healthcare for coal miners? Most billionaires would have picked Hillary over Donald. She was the "status quo" candidate, and the status quo is working pretty well for them.

    85. Re:Just the beginning by Maritz · · Score: 1

      "Hurr durr I've nothing to hide"

      --
      I do not want your cheap brainburning drugs. They are useless for work. And I am a working man today.
    86. Re: Just the beginning by Fire_Wraith · · Score: 5, Informative

      1) Taxes - As someone fairly educated on economics, Clinton had zero tax/economic policy. I wish she did, so I could compare.

      Here, let me take two seconds to google that for you:
      http://www.taxpolicycenter.org...

      It's certainly fair to disagree with any of Clinton's policies, but to say she had none is either disingenuous or misinformed. Clinton had a huge policy shop - it just never caught much if any press attention. Maybe that was her fault for not pushing them more - perhaps the advice of campaign consultants to avoid her tendency to "wonk out" and glaze people over with details maybe.

      while Trump was clearly against central federal involvement to the level that we had achieved over the previous 16 years.

      The flaw in your logic here is that removing all of that doesn't improve the situation, it makes it worse. Getting rid of an inefficient or messy solution to a problem doesn't get rid of the original problem.

      Clinton framed this issue as nothing more than "Trump is against immigrants." Why couldn't she just propose a comprehensive low-wage immigrant worker program? I mean, that is what the country ultimately needs. I would have voted for her if she had such a plan. She did not.

      Her policy was a bit more than that. Again, I suggest using a search engine rather than accepting what others are telling you (whether on social media, or from various news shows/sites) without question. As for why she couldn't, I would suggest that given the history of both her and her husband, she would be entirely willing to entertain a reasonable (and widely supported) compromise. The Clintons have never been ideologues, and that's partly why they take lots of flak from the Left, because while they're on the left, they're also more than willing to throw whatever pet cause under the bus in order to champion a policy they think is going to attract majority support.
      Trump, meanwhile, has shown zero inclination to any sort of compromises from an absolute hard line position, either on the campaign trail or now that he's in office. Furthermore, his past history has not been that of a compromise type, but rather someone who is adamant about getting his way, and using hardball tactics to get it. Now, if you want the policy he's pushing, then sure, that's a good thing - but I would argue that he's only going to cause us vastly greater problems for a variety of reasons, but that would be an entire thread of its own, so I'll skip it.

      4) Open source - Well, I mean "open". Trump talked to the press and anyone who would listen. Clinton gave canned speeches to small groups of supporters. She basically never gave press conferences.

      Clinton has always had an uneasy relationship with the press, sure. That said, she did give press conferences - far moreso than Trump, yet she was the one who was criticized in certain parts of the media (particularly those that leaned right). Worse, Trump outright banned reporters from certain major media outlets whose coverage he didn't like:
      http://money.cnn.com/2016/06/1...

      My feeling is that Clinton phoned-in her tenure at State.

      Based on what? Criticism on Fox or such? It's fair to disagree with the outcomes, and to suggest she could have done things differently, but it seems strange to me to suggest she spent her time not working.

      ACA - I can do math. I have an understanding of models. The ACA is doomed by math. Clinton would not say the obvious. Why not?

      The ACA isn't doomed by math any more than Social Security will run out in 203X. Since this is Slashdot, here's the requisite car analogy. If your engine is making a whining or knocking sound, do you throw up your hands and say

    87. Re:Just the beginning by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      > Brexit was obviously the wrong move.

      So, in your world, issues like "sovereignty" are not a thing? From what I can see, Brexit is obviously the correct move, as it returns sovereignty to the country.

      I submit to you that what you are declaring as "obviously" correct or incorrect moves are matters of opinion. And that different people in different situations can come to different rational answers.

    88. Re:Just the beginning by chispito · · Score: 1

      That's not the problem. The problem is that a company like Facebook knows:

      • Roughly how old you are (at least enough to tell whether you're of voting age)
      • Where you live (roughly if it has to guess from IP addresses, precisely, if you've ever bought anything from a company that shares data with Facebook).
      • What news articles you read (what issues are important to you?)
      • What news articles you share (what are your opinions on the issues that are important to you?)

      This is enough that they can identify what ads to show you to influence your opinion (Candidate X strongly supports issue Y), but more importantly they can share this info with canvassers who can target the undecided votes in a constituency and knock on their doors and say 'have you thought about [issue that we know is your number one priority], are you aware that our candidate believes [exactly what you believe]?'.

      Plenty of websites know all that about you. Or about most people, anyway.

      --
      The Daddy casts sleep on the Baby. The Baby resists!
    89. Re: Just the beginning by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Unfortunately, you are incorrect. They vote based on what Facebook groups they are already a part of tell them to do. Almost no one is legitimately informed, if they were, neither of the candidates that ran in the general election would have got past the primaries.

    90. Re: Just the beginning by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The Trump defender started with getting personal, so it's of an odd question. But you folks need to get your shit together and work as a team again. Reach each others hands - even if one of you has really small ones - and shake them. Good boys!

    91. Re: Just the beginning by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I don't disagree with you, however, after 100 days in office the status quo seems safe for the 0.1%

    92. Re:Just the beginning by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Does that include companies like The Guardian too? They're one of the biggest culprits when it comes to trying to influence clueless voters with their version of reality. Hell, these demagogues are still peddling the "Pepe is racist hate speech" nonsense, on their frontpage no less.

      No, there is nothing wrong with openly trying to influence people. The Guardian is an openly corporatist, "liberal" (in the European sense of "right wing", lassaiez-faire with "bien pensant" support for social improvement, but without actually committing to doing anything themselves, for example by paying extra taxes). This is not something they hide, they state it openly on their editorial pages. Their attacks on both left wing and extreme right wing authoritarian groups within Europe are clear and well understood. They still attempt to report the truth as they understand it and often include articles from their opponents when they don't (which is much of the time).

      If you don't understand the difference between that and someone who is actively lying and misleading then you need to read up about freedom of expression. The guardian's "misunderstandings" could be easily answered by more contrary speech.

      For example you claim that the guardian is reporting that "Pepe is racist hate speech", which would hardly be a news story, however I find, on the Guardian's front page, the story that Pepe the Frog creator kills off internet meme co-opted by white supremacists - it's talking about the actual original artist who made the frog drawings. Now that is news, whether you agree with Mr Furie or not. It becomes clear that the question is not "why is the Guardian reporting this" but instead "why is the rest of the media not reporting this.

    93. Re:Just the beginning by HornWumpus · · Score: 1

      Insert 'Bill Burr' bit: 'You don't make Brady's wife the next quarterback, she didn't learn by osmosis!'

      --
      John McAfee 'It was like that time I hired that Bangkok prostitute; to do my taxes, while I fucked my accountant'
    94. Re:Just the beginning by torkus · · Score: 1

      There's also the obvious but unwritten:

      People are tired of politicians being totally above the law and doing whatever they wanted.

      There was a reasonable belief that clinton intentionally abused the email server situation. When she was absolved of guilt (among some rather damming evidence and various political infighting) it simply made her look worse, not innocent.

      In managing to 'get away' with that whole mess, Clinton simply made it clear to the average joe that she could, would, and does whatever she wants irrespective of the law. People are tired of corrupt politicians and she couldn't have given better proof. Trump, despite being rather coarse and uncouth, was Something Different.

      --
      You can get rich if you own a politician, but you have to be rich to buy one in the first place.
    95. Re:Just the beginning by torkus · · Score: 1

      They know all that...

      This is enough that they can identify what ads to show you to influence your opinion

      But do they know that I use an adblocker? Only time I've seen an ad online this century was when I switched browsers and had to download a new adblocker for the new browser. That must have been the best part of 20 minutes when I could see ads this century....

      Of course they know you use an ad blocker. That's one more data point they have about you..

      And it's why all the FB ads are basically "news" in your feed now.

      --
      You can get rich if you own a politician, but you have to be rich to buy one in the first place.
    96. Re: Just the beginning by mrclevesque · · Score: 1

      "The butthurt is strong in this one!

      If the Horrendous Harridan was so fucking competent, why'd she run such an utter train-wreck of a campaign?

      Hillary! LOST!!! BWAAA HAAA HAA!"

      Left + Right

    97. Re:Just the beginning by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      We need to pull the fuck out of Facebook/other massive social media NOW (more like years ago) before they start legislating themselves into the core of the Internet with some kind of "digital passport" where these mega providers are the gatekeepers of identity.

      It seems like every local news site on the planet is letting Ivan post as a "God-fearing MAGA-loving American from ... uhh, Krasnoyarsk... Texas?" so let's be real about just how much they value authenticity after seeing the social media "effect" go to town on Western democratic institutions.

    98. Re:Just the beginning by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Or 30+ years of political experience, in-depth exposure to and familiarity with US law, experience with international relations, military operations, and other required skills.

      Do you not understand that these are the things that Trump voters were trying to eliminate? Washington is a cesspool and you don't clean it up by voting the same trash into office repeatedly.

    99. Re:Just the beginning by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You kids, You gave it to them, you didn't listen to anyone older than 50 telling you NOT TO.

      Leave with one good thought, anything you ever put online or use a CC to buy will only ever be used against you. It can not be pulled back or erased later.

      Now do with this info what you want.

    100. Re: Just the beginning by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Oh no!! If you don't support the feminists (aka The Women's Separatists Movement), then you must be evil. Or a man. Its the same thing.

      Coward women backstabbing their way to the top. Or bottom. It depends which one the ugly lesbians are.

      Hillary was a big piece of shit. That's why she lost. It should be so obvious now. And its a good thing. Trump is doing a lot of good.

      Sure change is scary. But if you recall the best things happening for America, it was time of change.

      And this is America. Not the new world order or globalist. So it is irrelevant to try to argue about how all the other messed up countries are doing it right by making themselves rape capitals and slums.

      That is exactly why trump will get elected a second term. So get your tissues and diapers ready. You traitorous communist pigs.

    101. Re:Just the beginning by phantomfive · · Score: 1

      Who is more corrupt, the one buying, or the one being bought? I'm not sure the answer to that is particularly meaningful.....

      --
      "First they came for the slanderers and i said nothing."
    102. Re:Just the beginning by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Indeed. Trump and Brexit are the most brilliant displays of real Democracy in action we have seen in our life-time. Thank god that despicable, establishment-friendly policies can be held at bay, thus preventing the detriment of populous.

      PS go fuck yourself and the horse you rode in on.

    103. Re:Just the beginning by Trondheim · · Score: 1

      Maybe they were voting against the party that celebrates killing unborn children.

    104. Re:Just the beginning by chispito · · Score: 1

      Either Trump's supporters just all decided to get active online at the same time, or there is a coordinated effort going on.

      Maybe people are just tired of being told that they only reason they voted the way they did was because they were manipulated, uneducated, or racist.

      Or maybe you're right, and just like your candidate knew all along, the Vast Right Wing Conspiracy is alive and well.

      --
      The Daddy casts sleep on the Baby. The Baby resists!
    105. Re:Just the beginning by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yes, most lotteries are incredibly corrupt . . .

      I agree, government doesn't have a good track record at running lotteries, or anything for that matter.

      . . . and yes Native American casinos are as corrupt as white owned ones are - though I'm more forgiving of them - they are in the business to feed their kids after the resources . . . were taken from them . . .

      We're all just trying to feed our kids and ourselves, and we all have ancestors that lost wars. The truth is you favor minorities because your political party told you to and you thought it was a good idea because white men.

      . . . very few white casino owners can seriously say if they didn't start robbery-palaces they would have starved instead.

      1. They would have found something else to do, as many have. They aren't all running casinos. Apparently, I have a lot more faith in Native Americans than you do. You should think about why that's the case.

      2. Casinos aren't akin to robbery because gambling at a casino is done by choice, whereas robbery is not. That's why taxing citizens for things they don't need or don't want is a form of robbery -- one party takes from another party by force. That's not what happens at a casino, as no one is forced to be there. It's an important distinction you'd be wise to learn.

    106. Re: Just the beginning by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Informative

      Common Core was not federally mandated.

    107. Re:Just the beginning by Archangel+Michael · · Score: 1

      Trump and Hillary are both stupid choices. Pretending one is worse than the other is stupid. And just because you don't understand why people voted a certain way is your own stupidity.

      At least I understand why people voted for Trump and Clinton. They weren't stupid people doing it. At least with Trump, they had choices (16 of them) to choose from. People voting for Clinton only had ... Clinton and Bernie, and she made sure he couldn't win. So liberals didn't have a choice beyond Stupid, which is stupid.

      Don't let your stupid butthurt get in the way of your reality.

      --
      Agent K: A *person* is smart. People are dumb, stupid, panicky animals, and you know it.
    108. Re:Just the beginning by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Hillary lost because of....Hillary. Democrats were prepared to coronate her without an election. She, after all, was the obvious choice, except to those who found her out of touch and unlikeable. Hillary sucks. Our youth don't like her. A bunch of crony Dems were living in Bill Clinton's era, which I Iiked just fine. But Hillary wasn't bringing that economic boom back.

      The economy sucks. Thousands have lost their jobs under Obama's economic policies. He stood there and told America to "buck up", those jobs aren't coming back. Hillary stood for 8 more years of no jobs. So let me boil it down here for the butt hurts. It's the economy stupids. The rise of tent cities through out our cities should have been a sign that all is not well. Trump promised jobs. What did you think was going to happen?

    109. Re:Just the beginning by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Oh, sure. But it's a different type of corruption. Corruption in business doesn't prepare you for corruption in politics the way that corruption in politics prepares you for corruption in politics.

    110. Re:Just the beginning by Archangel+Michael · · Score: 2

      As in, Brexit was obviously the wrong move.

      Define "wrong move" here. Please, without referring to articles explaining your point of view. In your own words, explain.

      Because every time I've asked a liberal elitist to explain why Brexit was bad, and when they could actually answer, it was usually about things that probably won't happen, and if they do happen, probably won't be nearly as bad as the liberals think. Kind of like Trump. The world is going to end! the Russians are coming!!! OMG Trump is going to personally rape your daughter and eat your puppies!

      Stop believing the hyperbole. It is ridiculous

      --
      Agent K: A *person* is smart. People are dumb, stupid, panicky animals, and you know it.
    111. Re:Just the beginning by Anonymous+Cow+Ward · · Score: 1

      Oh, FFS. Rape is not a pre-existing condition. The AHCA is bad enough without spouting a bunch of BS about it.

      --
      Examine even your most deeply held beliefs. Nobody is always right.
    112. Re:Just the beginning by MightyMartian · · Score: 1

      There are a lot of Aspies in need of cognitive therapy.

      --
      The world's burning. Moped Jesus spotted on I50. Details at 11.
    113. Re:Just the beginning by MightyMartian · · Score: 1

      At the end of the day, the "elite" as it were, will get their way anyways. It's unlikely Trump's wall will ever be built, his health care plan (or rather Ryan's) is unlikely to get through the Senate, and if it does, it will be so altered as to be unrecognizable. It's going to be two, maybe four years (depending on whether the Democrats make any in-roads in 2018) of Republican lawmakers cuing up for selfies with Trump while they work behind the scenes to undermine his every initiative.

      --
      The world's burning. Moped Jesus spotted on I50. Details at 11.
    114. Re:Just the beginning by Archangel+Michael · · Score: 1

      You're right, but you're also wrong.

      The masses have always been easy to manipulate. But when you look at logic and reason, the whole persuasion of the left is based on Mass Hysteria. "People are starving, we must raise taxes to feed the starving people! " Even right now, people are wanting to raise taxes, because there "are hungry people ..." or some edge case anecdotal evidence is proof of widespread horror. My current tax rate is approaching 50% (all taxes, fees, mandated payments etc), and yet, we STILL can't get everyone fed right? Tell me how that is even possible?

      My opinion is, that most liberals want OTHERS to pay for things they themselves are unwilling to pay for.

      --
      Agent K: A *person* is smart. People are dumb, stupid, panicky animals, and you know it.
    115. Re:Just the beginning by MightyMartian · · Score: 2

      That was Hillary's mistake. She should have lied big and lied often. In a way it almost inoculated Trump against the accusation of being a liar. Because he is a shameless fantasist, supporters feel completely free to reinterpret his every utterance in any way they please.

      --
      The world's burning. Moped Jesus spotted on I50. Details at 11.
    116. Re: Just the beginning by penandpaper · · Score: 1

      The more you project what you think I think the more you will not understand my voting behavior and the more you will lose elections.

    117. Re:Just the beginning by Archangel+Michael · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Remember, the Republicans had some 16 candidates to chose from, while the Democrats ostensibly only had one, being the Bernie never had a chance against the rigged DNC election machine. The bad choice of the Republicans is their choice of their party members, the bad choice of the Democrats was the DNC choice. The fact that Bernie made a significant run and almost beat Hillary shows you how bad a candidate she really was.

      Hillary Loss is fully on the DNC and Hillary as a candidate.

      That, and the US Presidential Election is almost always a lose lose proposition. That is the nature of the two party electoral nonsense.

      --
      Agent K: A *person* is smart. People are dumb, stupid, panicky animals, and you know it.
    118. Re:Just the beginning by Archangel+Michael · · Score: 1

      RIght, because the lady smart enough to figure out Cattle Futures that one time is a much better choice.

      --
      Agent K: A *person* is smart. People are dumb, stupid, panicky animals, and you know it.
    119. Re:Just the beginning by bugs2squash · · Score: 1

      maybe they should actually put a "fuck the lot of you" checkbox on the ballot, so people can register a complaint with their vote without having to pick some ridiculous protest candidate or write out a name.

      --
      Nullius in verba
    120. Re:Just the beginning by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      >I mean, what else would you describe a party that makes rape a preexisting medical condition so coverage can be denied, but not, say, erectile dysfunction.

      I would describe it as one that isn't running a criminal that got away with it as their candidate.

      >Yeah well, protest votes count. In the case of the US anyone who protest voted did it by voting for the party of evil.

      See, here's the problem. You are exactly what loonycyborg was talking about.

      >At some point, you have to take responsibility for your actions. If you vote for the far worse evil, you have some responsibility for their actions.

      Hilary and Trump are equal levels of evil. The answer is to not vote, of course, but some haven't figured that one out yet.

      >There was a leave campaign for Brexit (as well as a remain one) run by a bunch of the people in power. They called it the official campaign and lied egregiously.

      And the other side lied too.

      Evil on all sides.

      Keep voting and let me know when it stops evil. I won't hold my breath.

    121. Re:Just the beginning by penandpaper · · Score: 1

      has no defense against it

      I don't understand this. How is this different than any other time in history? Someone is always trying to convince you of something and many times that something is against your self interests... How did people before manage to get by ? What is fundamentally different about people that they cannot consume information and parse out what is in their self interest? There have always been liars and thieves and being on a computer doesn't change the proper defense of liars and thieves.

    122. Re:Just the beginning by mjwx · · Score: 4, Insightful

      The vulnerability here are voters without a clue about reality. That one cannot easily be fixed, but throwing the staff and financiers of such companies in jail would be a start.

      Does that include companies like The Guardian too? They're one of the biggest culprits when it comes to trying to influence clueless voters with their version of reality. Hell, these demagogues are still peddling the "Pepe is racist hate speech" nonsense, on their frontpage no less.

      The only thing you've revealed here is that you've never even picked up a copy of the guardian.

      The Daily Mail and their ilk are the biggest culprits in trying to influence clueless voters. This does not excuse the Guardian but what you wrote is completely wrong. The Guardian is trying to influence clued voters, why (and this is how we can tell you've never read the Guardian) is because the Guardian is written much more eloquently. There is a minimum education level required to understand the language used, your clueless readers end up going back to the Daily Mail or Sun to read celebrity trash and extreme right wing propaganda sandwiched between Page 3 girls. The Sun and DM target the most basest desires (which is why they're little more than soft porn these days) with the most basic language.

      It's clear you're a Murdoch fanboy (Fox News/Daily Mail) as you don't even know that "front page" is two words.

      Now if it were up to me, I wouldn't get rid of the DM or the Guardian. I'd simply enforce the same editorial standards as the BBC across the entire industry... And I'd tighten them up too. Get caught publishing a falsehood, a retraction must be issued on the front page. Get caught doing it deliberately, the retraction must run for 5 days.

      --
      Calling someone a "hater" only means you can not rationally rebut their argument.
    123. Re:Just the beginning by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Just for the record, these "designated" and "obviously" wrong moves with "no need to put it into the ballots", are, in fact, what the populations of the various countries voted for. Don't get me wrong - I think that some issues are wrong also, but I acknowledge that I am in the minority on many things. Part of living in a democracy is that the things that the population votes for are *right*, regardless of what *you* think. The above two posts are the most arrogant that I've ever seen (really!) - where the posters seem to think that their view is the *only* view, and that other views should be *silenced*.

      As an example, the citizens of my geographic area recently petitioned the city to purchase/operate a golf course. The golf course was losing money and wanted to be sold and turned into apartment buildings (allowable under its zoning provisions). The citizens did not want that to happen, and would prefer to pay taxes on a money-losing golf course. They put it to a vote ("money-losing golf course" vs. "apartment buildings"). The other citizens voted for "money-losing golf course" - and they are *right*, because that is the will of the people.

      Targeting people, swaying minds, etc. is allowable. Swaying minds and convincing people to vote is __what you are supposed to do__. Doing it better than your opponent with a bunch of datasets or whatever is __perfectly allowable__.

    124. Re: Just the beginning by aquacrayfish · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Liberals have nobody to blame but yourselves for Trump.

      No, no, no, no, no. Party A does not get to blame party B for party A's candidate. Be proud of what your own candidate stands for if you wish, but you *DO NOT* get to deflect imperfections of your own candidate/office holder onto another party. Trump is who he is, and we have what we have because we keep on nominating unlikable candidates and can't agree on basic facts about what's important.

      ... when they don't agree with mouth-foaming liberals.

      Also, you don't get to react like this to a comment about someone talking about you 'blindly hating the left' with this comment. Stick to your points, and the people who feel compelled to use labels will rightly be ignored.

    125. Re:Just the beginning by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      So you may consider that people chose "wrong" option as protest against this false democracy.

      Yeah well, protest votes count. In the case of the US anyone who protest voted did it by voting for the party of evil. I mean, what else would you describe a party that makes rape a preexisting medical condition so coverage can be denied, but not, say, erectile dysfunction.

      At some point, you have to take responsibility for your actions. If you vote for the far worse evil, you have some responsibility for their actions.

      These people have convinced themselves that Ma and Pa Kettle voted from Trump to troll the establishment as part of some masterful stroke of 47 degree chess strategy.

      As you say, "many people are impervious to evidence."

    126. Re: Just the beginning by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      In all seriousness, though, THIS is the reason why Trump won. Average people who go to work every day, spend time with the family, and try to be involved in their communities are tired of being labeled, called names, told they're meanies, etc. when they don't agree with mouth-foaming liberals. Liberals have nobody to blame but yourselves for Trump.

      Claiming that people voted for a dangerous incompetent who will screw them over because the the "other side" is mean to them is just another way claiming that that they are stupid.

      How mean of you.

      But we agree. Trump won because people were stupid enough to vote for him.

    127. Re: Just the beginning by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You are special smurt. I wish i were as smurt as u.

    128. Re:Just the beginning by loonycyborg · · Score: 1

      It would be as wasteful as voting for non dem-rep party

    129. Re:Just the beginning by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      But isn't all this talk about social media influence just a distracting from the important conversation we need to be having about Hillary's e-mails?

      Also, I'm no Trump supporter, but can you please provide a source for any of what you said? I think you're maybe experiencing a bit of paranoia.

      (and so on, and so on... the gaslighting is real.)

    130. Re: Just the beginning by Raenex · · Score: 1

      No, no, no, no, no. Party A does not get to blame party B for party A's candidate.

      Actually, you do, at least partially. When party B becomes a mix of odious identity politics that vilifies white people, and white males in particular, a reactionary candidate in party A gains traction.

      Personally speaking, I only supported Trump because the left had gone insane with political correctness and "progressive" causes, even though I supported Obama for the previous two elections.

    131. Re:Just the beginning by Raenex · · Score: 1

      all of the message boards I participate in have been swarmed with right-wing trolls

      "Correct" the Record was part of the Hillary campaign.

    132. Re: Just the beginning by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      There is some truth to what you are saying. But the foam dripping from your mouth obscures it quite a lot.

    133. Re:Just the beginning by Enigma2175 · · Score: 1

      I would have, if he was still year 2000 John McCain. Instead, he chose someone with no experience, qualifications or talent to be his running mate. Sorry, I just couldn't support putting someone like Palin a heartbeat away from the presidency even if it meant having a decent person as president. Didn't vote for Obama that year either, like usual it was a choice between a turd and a douche.

      --

      Enigma

    134. Re:Just the beginning by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      I'm pretty sure they already did that considering FB is in bed with the Democrats because hurr durr resistance.

      Google openly modified search suggestions and similar things.

      This is suddenly "news" because it has the "it benefited Trump" label. This is another "The Russians" smear attempt to see if it sticks.

      Next!

    135. Re: Just the beginning by Raenex · · Score: 1

      Trump, meanwhile, has shown zero inclination to any sort of compromises from an absolute hard line position, either on the campaign trail or now that he's in office.

      That's bullshit, because he's been all over the map on many issues. Just take immigration as one example. He softened his stance to support "dreamers". He went from an all-out ban on Muslim immigration to a narrow ban based on a list from Obama's administration.

      Look at health care. He's not holding to his campaign promises (which were impossible, because he wanted it all without any way to pay for it), and he doesn't really seem to give a shit about the particulars of the Republican plan, as long as something gets passed and he can claim victory on getting rid of Obamacare.

      Look at the most recent budget that was passed. By all accounts, Trump got hardly anything of his "hard line" positions that he campaigned on.

      That said, she did give press conferences - far moreso than Trump

      What the fuck? It was a national story that Hillary was not doing press conferences.

    136. Re: Just the beginning by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      >she did give press conferences

      Yeah no. You should really use search engines instead of just using your canned talking points.

      You left-wing trolls are really sad.

    137. Re: Just the beginning by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Liberals have nobody to blame but yourselves for Trump.

      It appears you are inferring that Trump is something to be blamed for, or something bad...
      Interesting.

    138. Re: Just the beginning by randallman · · Score: 1

      " tired of being labeled, called names, told they're meanies, etc." ... "don't agree with mouth-foaming liberals"

      Covered in mud, slinging mud. Funny. I hear the talk radio gods talk about the mouth-foaming liberals, though I've never met one. I'm sure you can find some. It's a straw man. Describe a mouth foamer who's brain is infected with "liberalism" and throw everyone you disagree with into that box.

      I voted for Bill Weld - by far the best candidate in the bunch. Complain about the mobster and the lunatic and pretend there are only 2 sides - and of course it's self fulfilling.

    139. Re: Just the beginning by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Your replies on Tax and Immigration issues are "google this, google that", which is basically RTFM, and that's your (and Hillary's) problem. There is a large number of people who want to hear things from the horse's mouth, and that's where Hillary has failed so miserably.

    140. Re: Just the beginning by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Are you kidding? Trump is one of APKs main beta testers.

    141. Re: Just the beginning by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      > Party A does not get to blame party B for party A's candidate.

      Why not?

      > Be proud of what your own candidate stands for

      I don't think you understand US polarization politics. There's one or two issues you focus on and the other side is dead wrong on almost everything. You might understand reality in a few years, or not, as you are currently affected with the disease.

    142. Re: Just the beginning by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      So, some people called you a couple names, and you say that's the reason you voted for trump? Do you realize how dumb you sound right now. You think trump is going to protect you? Trump is racist, there is no debating that. So you are saying it's ok for the conservatives to call people out and name call, but when the liberals do it, the worlds burning.

      Your kind screams all the time about SJW and how everything that is PC is bullshit, yet when someone calls you a name it's different. You aren't shit but a hypocrite. And the people that modded you up are hypocrites as well. You think you are entitled, you are not. You aren't special.

      I'm flabbergasted right now.

      TLDR: "the liberals called us names, so we voted for trump because he's going to protect us from the bad liberals who never do anything right."

      Pathetic, truly truly pathetic.

    143. Re: Just the beginning by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      /p>

      Look at health care. He's not holding to his campaign promises (which were impossible, because he wanted it all without any way to pay for it), and he doesn't really seem to give a shit about the particulars of the Republican plan, as long as something gets passed and he can claim victory on getting rid of Obamacare.

      Talk about damning praise. By your own words, you condemn him. He just wants to claim credit, victory, and doesn't give a shit about the costs of it. And you're right, they won't be without a price.

      But it's ok, he just wants credit for something. And therein lies the rub.

      He will lie to us about what he wanted to do, he will lie to us about what he did do, and then he will attack us for daring to point out his shame. The Emperor will walk naked while cloaked in hollow glories, and hang any who speak the truth.

      Thank you, thank you for admitting the truth.

    144. Re:Just the beginning by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Found the 'the_Doughnut' cultist.

    145. Re: Just the beginning by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      That is the dumbest analogy I have ever heard.

      It falls apart right from the beginning. And if you can't see why, then I guess that's the reason you like Bill Burr. Because he calls out stupid shit he has no business calling out. Then he creates thinly veiled analogies that fall flat on anybody with an ounce of intelligence.

      Brady's wife isn't with him practicing going over game plans, learning the trade. But I bet you Hillary had some input in everything Bill did. He bounced ideas off of her, debated about policies, etc. she was gaining valuable experience just by being by his side.

      Quarterbacking is a physical trait with a bit of intelligence. Politics is 100% intellectual, and can be learned over time by being around those situations.

      You won the award for idiot of the day, for 1) quoting Bill Burr of all people and 2) using a flawed ass analogy to further your point.

      Isn't there a post about how John Oliver slashdoted the FCC website and a bunch of conservatives were calling him out and telling him to mind his business. Yet if it were Bill Burr, that somehow makes it ok. Once again, hypocrites. Conservatives are the biggest group of hypocrites I've ever met. At least liberals lie behind your back. Conservatives are flat out dishonest and try to hide it.

    146. Re: Just the beginning by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Everybody hates common core, but isn't actually able to explain what common core is. As a teacher, I really think all the butthurt over Common Core is all a great pile of nonsense. In, say, 10th grade English, they want you to read books and be able to write a competent paragraph. It's the most basic generic BS you can imagine. Surely all but the most incompetent teachers would all go over this stuff anyway. There is no government inspector telling us we have to teach the true value of Communism on the third day of the week or whatever parents are afraid of. Just a list of basic things that teachers should be reviewing, I guess because maybe in really shitty school districts they never get around to teaching essay-writing.

    147. Re: Just the beginning by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Your reasons are bunk. So either you aren't as smart as you insist that you are, or you voted for Trump for reasons that you would rather not openly admit to.

    148. Re:Just the beginning by ganjadude · · Score: 1

      there is no opting out of your government

      if i dont like walmart, i dont shop there

      see the difference???

      --
      have you seen my sig? there are many others like it but none that are the same
    149. Re: Just the beginning by Raenex · · Score: 1

      Talk about damning praise. By your own words, you condemn him. He just wants to claim credit, victory, and doesn't give a shit about the costs of it. And you're right, they won't be without a price. [..] Thank you, thank you for admitting the truth.

      You're welcome. I call out bullshit as I see it. I never liked Trump, but I supported him over Hillary this election because I think immigration is out of control, Islam is a real threat, and "progressive" identity politics had gone too far. All exasperated by a political correctness that was strangling the country. I see Trump as an antidote to some of that, but that doesn't mean I'm going to blindly support him.

    150. Re: Just the beginning by aquacrayfish · · Score: 1

      So this isn't a policy statement, more of a reaction why the voters went with Trump. I wasn't sure, I suppose I should have led with that question.

      As a white male I don't feel particularly vilified by anything that's been going on. Maybe that's thick skin or too much naivete, whatever the case I have trouble seeing past staying home during this voting cycle versus voting the other way. I typically only ever look at policy, and while there's a lot not to like with both major parties the basics of why I have trouble voting Republican haven't changed since Bush Jr became the standard-bearer.

      So, I guess my point is that I don't see how any Trump policies won over people who were for Obama. Trump is *way* more charismatic than Clinton and the presentation of both party's agendas is why people weren't buying (D) this time around. That said, from a policy perspective in 2016 versus 2012 I didn't see any major changes from either party. Maybe I'm just not looking in the right places.

    151. Re:Just the beginning by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Strange... As I read this, I was thinking of all the name-calling liberal posts I have been seeing everywhere, accusing every Trump supporter of being racist, misogynist, etc and so on to the point that to even begin to appear conservative gets one blasted. Perhaps it makes more sense that there is a coordinated attack going on both sides in order to increase the divide for some as-yet-unknown purpose? ...Or perhaps it is simply confirmation bias. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confirmation_bias

    152. Re:Just the beginning by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Define "wrong move" here. Please, without referring to articles explaining your point of view. In your own words, explain.

      The biggest flaw was that the "Brexit" was undefined, unspecified, and thus needed to be negotiated. Bad enough on its own, since it was being taken as a final, absolute, mandatory and compulsive course, but add in the problem of Theresa May who took power based on her purported position on Brexit, leaving out her own plans and finding it offensive that the people, or even their representatives might want to review her behavior, or even decide otherwise, and it's not good at all.

      She even went to court to fight the idea that she had to consult with Parliament. On that ground alone, I'd condemn her for her role in the process. She just wanted to be the tyrant.

      Because every time I've asked a liberal elitist to explain why Brexit was bad, and when they could actually answer, it was usually about things that probably won't happen, and if they do happen, probably won't be nearly as bad as the liberals think.

      Actually, that's the root of it. We don't know what will happen. Yet we are being treated as if we must pursue this course, in the dark, on a moonless night, with a bunch of low tides, and there's not even a need to proceed with caution for the shoals.

      Besides, her's the reason for the Brexit from its supporters: BAD THINGS WILL HAPPEN if we don't do it. It is double-plus wrongbad ungood! Evil! Evil! Evil!

      I mean really, Nigel Farange's froting speeches are pretty good selling points against the UKIP.

      Kind of like Trump. The world is going to end! the Russians are coming!!! OMG Trump is going to personally rape your daughter and eat your puppies!

      Yes, Trump did behave like that, he's rather hysterical in his hyperbole, though he tends to pick things like "The Werld iz going to end! Only I can save you, OMG BUY MY STAKES THEY'RE DEELICORICE" instead.

      But Archangel Michael, you believe him. You're a true believing Republican Stalwart, and can never even offer the slightest criticism of the GOP. At all.

      Which is fine, that makes you a useful barometer, as your consistent inability to recognize the fault, and your cowardice in refusing to admit to your partisanship, makes you reliable. Anything you are for? I look for the fault in it. Anything you oppose? I look for who would benefit from pursuing it.

    153. Re: Just the beginning by HornWumpus · · Score: 1

      Bullshit. Just bullshit.

      --
      John McAfee 'It was like that time I hired that Bangkok prostitute; to do my taxes, while I fucked my accountant'
    154. Re: Just the beginning by Zero__Kelvin · · Score: 1

      You have GOT to be kidding me.

      --
      Guns don't kill people; Physics kills people! - John Lithgow as Dick Solomon on Third Rock From The Sun
    155. Re: Just the beginning by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Keep thinking people don't know kenh is a bigoted racist nutbar with a partisan agenda, that'll be convincing.

    156. Re:Just the beginning by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "Oh My!"

      So, Peter Thiel, Woody Johnson, Carl Icahn, Sheldon Adelson, Carl Ichan, Tom Barrack, Woody Johnson, Steven Feinberg, Steve Mnuchin, T. Boone Pickens, Stanley Hubbard, Darwen Deason, Wilbur Ross, Andrew Beal, and John Paulson, ALL of whom supported Trump had no influence?

      Do you REALLY think Hillary would have picked the people for the cabinet and department heads that Trump has?
      Do you think she would have picked Rick Perry to guard the Nukes? Ben Carson for HUD? Betsy DeVoss for Education?

      If so, I have a few bridges in New York to sell you. Cheap. They are Bigly Profitable. Don't read that! Just sign here! You will get everything you ever wanted.

    157. Re:Just the beginning by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yeah, it's not like the guy who created Pepe had to kill the character off to try and stop it from being used by racists for their hate speech.

    158. Re: Just the beginning by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      So...you're an idiot, then?

      Because we all know that smacking down the Department of Education is a thing that sane people are all about. Trump failed at running a casino, and can barely put words together.

      You're well off, you're white, and you hate immigrants. You don't give a damn about anyone other than yourself, and you think having a moron running the country is entertaining.

      I hope your wife is cheating on you with someone who isn't a pile of garbage.

    159. Re:Just the beginning by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I still find it incredibly funny that people think anybody at all in US politics is less corrupt than a casino owning property developer. Atlantic City is such a bastion of law and order after all.

      1. Owning a casino doesn't make someone corrupt.
      2. Owning property or being a property developer doesn't make someone corrupt.
      3. Owning one or more casinos and also being a property developer doesn't make someone corrupt.
      4. The developer of a piece of property doesn't necessarily control who buys or rents it.
      5. The developer of a piece of property doesn't control what the buyer or renter does and so cannot be responsible for the buyer's or renter's immorality.

      Your statement really is nothing more than an insult, an ad hominem, name calling-- rubbish.
      The fact that you were modded +5 insightful really makes me wonder why I waste my time here instead of just reading Ars or twiddling my thumbs.

    160. Re: Just the beginning by Raenex · · Score: 1

      So, I guess my point is that I don't see how any Trump policies won over people who were for Obama.

      After 8 years of Obama, another 4 years of "progressive" politics would have been too much. When Obama started, he wasn't even in support of gay marriage. Eight years later, and a Christian baker is forced under the law to bake a cake for a gay wedding.

      Title IX was abused to cause kangaroo courts and a rash of sexual assault claims that ruined students' lives.

      I supported intervention in Libya at the time, but now it looks like a giant mistake, and it looked like Clinton wanted to repeat that mistake in Syria.

      Obama wouldn't use the phrase "Islamic terrorism". Clinton wanted to take in 50,000 Muslim refugees, in addition to those we've already taken in. And she certainly wasn't taking a stance against illegal immigration from Mexico, which I've never liked, and I think it's about time we got serious about it.

    161. Re: Just the beginning by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Clinton also traveled more than any other SoS, which seems to be a big part of State's job (**cough** Tillerson).

    162. Re:Just the beginning by dbIII · · Score: 1

      despite being rather coarse and uncouth, was Something Different

      So you still think that even now? If so you are really in for a shock some time.

    163. Re:Just the beginning by dbIII · · Score: 1
      Indeed, in the theoretical case, but consider the way he has operated in reality. He proudly relates corrupt practices in his ghostwritten book for example.

      The fact that you were modded +5 insightful

      It's because people remembered items about him in the media over the decades on the topic.

    164. Re:Just the beginning by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      No. The problem is ambivalence of the populace. The problem is money in politics and no recourse for the populace. The problem is that I can't afford a lobbyist. Neither can you, or you, or you.

        But the IMPORTANT companies have their lobbyists drafting our legislation.

      The problem is that the vast majority of voters have been disenfranchised but brainwashed to think their vote makes a difference. A corporation is now a person. I donated $50 to Bernie. I'm pretty sure Ed Koch, another American Citizen, didn't donate $50 to Trump..

      99.9% of voters COMBINED can't compete with the top 10 individual wealth-holders much less the corporations.

      We live in an oligarchy and, as of the last election, *all* branches of government are bought and paid for. Welcome to *free* market. Lets roll back that pesky net neutrality. Lets roll back any oversight of health insurance. It's not like corporations are *ever* predatory against the consumer..... It's not like socialized medicine might actually work when you eliminate the profit margin.... (see every country in Europpe) and (yes, they are *always* predatory. Always).

      I would love to see a no-confidence vote that could be initiated by petition (say, with a 40% disapproval) and loss forces a new election and losers go to federal fuck-you-in-the-ass prison.

    165. Re:Just the beginning by chihowa · · Score: 1

      It was more than just his choice of running mate that made him a horrible choice. He went from being a fairly reasonable and level-headed guy to a wingnut raving loon just in time for his bid for presidency. I hope that he was only acting that way under guidance of the GOP coaches, but I"m not sure he could ever come back from that. I'm not a R (or D), but I could have voted for him before he pulled that shit.

      --
      If you want a vision of the future, imagine a youtube comments section scrolling - forever.
    166. Re: Just the beginning by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Well, because the right took all the racial slurs

    167. Re: Just the beginning by chihowa · · Score: 1

      I have no idea what the mouth-foaming conservatives say because I don't listen to garbage talk radio, but I can assure you that mouth-foaming liberals exist. The GP post above is a great example of one. He rages against straw men and calls people hateful names. He's not trolling and there are many people like him.

      I'm at a university, so I see plenty of them all of the time. They assume I'm one, too, so they foam around me but not at me, but they certainly foam.

      I didn't vote for either of the two major party clowns, either, by the way. A pox on both their houses.

      --
      If you want a vision of the future, imagine a youtube comments section scrolling - forever.
    168. Re: Just the beginning by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Just want today that the baker is at fault for this... if he didn't say why he was turning down service he would be fine. Hell, he could probably tell them to fuck off and get out of his store because "he didn't like the way they looked at him"

    169. Re: Just the beginning by Raenex · · Score: 1

      The baker is not at fault for standing up for their beliefs. The problem is an overreaching government. Don't blame the victim.

    170. Re:Just the beginning by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The tone of your comment is that you are a "smart" person and anyone who voted for either Trump or Brexit are "stupid". You come across as someone above the riff-raff because what you support is right and anyone who does not follow your lead is stupid. And Trump won because the people running the government for the past 20+ years has not been doing there job. What's worse is the all the "smart" people throwing hissy fits is totally bereft of the powers the Executive branch actually has. Don't look at Trumps statements look at what has actually been done. Trump's critics are the ones doing the most damage right now. Trumps critics are unable to differentiate between the person and the office. After Trumps win his critics went after the system. The concentrated hostility directed at Trump by the "smart" people are concentrating on the wrong target. A President can do little damage that cannot be corrected by the next person to hold the office. Executive orders can be nullified by the next President. It is the legislative branch that is running the country into the ditch. They have no term limits. They are responsible for defining and enforcing the rules governing political campaigns. The 501c entities provide the financial instrument used to buy politicians with no questions asked. The Senate and the House are internal rules that actually determine how much influence a Senator or House member actually has. Freshman legislators have almost no choice in how they vote. The legislative branch waste more time and money on their "investigations" then actually doing their job. Not to mention that these "investigations" are politicized to provide the ammunition needed in the next election cycle. They also have the power to block anything Trump proposes but they never offer any alternatives.

      Trump has accomplished the following:
      1. Sidelined and basically broke both the Republican and Democrat parties.
      2. All those who spent billions trying to influence their chosen Democrat and Republican candidate got nothing for their investment.
      3. He openly questioned and hinted the F-35 program might be dropped because of cost and the next day 15% was deducted from the cost and promises were made to reduce the cost even more. Lockheed's stock dropping 15% was enough incentive to do something to reverse that. A President doesn't normally focus the spotlight on a company like Lockheed.
      4. Questioned whether NATO was really needed and shortly after all the countries who had not been paying there agreed upon amount started paying their share.
      5. For all the hysterics about Russian influence the US has not removed any sanctions or did anything else that could benefit Russia in any way.
      6. He bitched slapped Syria with a few missile to get their attention while Russia just stood there watching as it happened. Now Russia is talking about creating "safe areas" and "cease fires" in the hope of doing anything they can to extract themselves from that useless conflict. Russia's military is paper thin and they are burning money in both Ukraine and Syria. The state of California has a higher GDP than Russia so they cannot afford to spend this type of money. Certainly not with the price of oil sinking to record lows.
      6. Finally upped up the tension level in NK to get China to take their thumbs out of their asses and get their mini-me back in line. There are so many missile defense installations surrounding China that their nuclear deterrent is being compromised.

      Sometimes the quickest way to initiate change is to say or do anything outrageous enough to evoke a response. Trump comes across as unpredictable and that is not necessarily a bad thing. The US has become predictable to the point of inaction being the only response to any crisis. If your enemy is predictable than it's easier to manipulate the outcome of any conflict.

      I am a 50 year white male, heterosexual, college educated, widower, no children, and practice no organized religion. These qualities mean there is not a single government policy or action being

    171. Re:Just the beginning by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      and you think you can escape them by shopping by another store ? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/...

    172. Re: Just the beginning by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The baker is not at fault for standing up for their beliefs. The problem is an overreaching government. Don't blame the victim.

      The baker is at fault for attempting to impose his beliefs on society at large. Society, however, has decided that bakers can't compel us to respect their refusal to bake cakes for people based on their relationship. If they don't want to bake cakes for such customers, they don't get to be in business, any more than they do if they don't want to wear hairnets or not racially discriminate.

      But then they can't be honest as judges either.

    173. Re:Just the beginning by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      TLDR = The votes of people who were excited to have Hillary as a candidate don't matter because I want to believe that anyone supporting the person I liked (who had never been associated with the party whose system he was using and benefiting from) was being oppressed!

      But the two-party system is indeed endlessly depressing.

    174. Re: Just the beginning by Raenex · · Score: 1

      The baker is at fault for attempting to impose his beliefs on society at large.

      What a load of horseshit. Freedom of association is the basic default in a free society. The one imposing is the government and couple insisting he either bakes a cake against his religious beliefs or goes out of business.

      Society, however, has decided that bakers can't compel us to respect their refusal to bake cakes for people based on their relationship.

      Nobody is compelling "respect". Just take your fucking business elsewhere.

    175. Re:Just the beginning by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Indeed. The Brexit and Trump are the most stupid things voters did recently, but they are not unique. The vulnerability here are voters without a clue about reality. That one cannot easily be fixed, but throwing the staff and financiers of such companies in jail would be a start.

      a matter if opinion...

    176. Re:Just the beginning by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Didn't Socrates get killed for doing something similar?

    177. Re:Just the beginning by kilfarsnar · · Score: 1

      Either Trump's supporters just all decided to get active online at the same time, or there is a coordinated effort going on.

      Maybe people are just tired of being told that they only reason they voted the way they did was because they were manipulated, uneducated, or racist. Or maybe you're right, and just like your candidate knew all along, the Vast Right Wing Conspiracy is alive and well.

      And all those people just decided to get online and tweak the liberals? Please don't assume who my candidate was. I am not a Democrat, and think the "My team vs. Your team" dynamic is damaging to our democracy.

      --
      "What the American public doesn't know is what makes them the American public." -Ray Zalinsky (Tommy Boy)
    178. Re:Just the beginning by kilfarsnar · · Score: 1

      The problem with this conspiracy theory is that if the billionaires got to pick the president, it would have been Jeb Bush, not Donald Trump. Do you think that "the elite" wanted TPP cancelled, NAFTA re-negotiated, and subsidized pensions/healthcare for coal miners? Most billionaires would have picked Hillary over Donald. She was the "status quo" candidate, and the status quo is working pretty well for them.

      You are making assumptions about the goals of whomever is behind this. Did you read the other linked article? https://www.theguardian.com/po... People do things for reasons other than making money or preserving the status quo. Besides, I'm just relating what I have experienced. Since a little before the election, right-wing trolls have been out in force, in a way I have never seen before. I can assume it's a coincidence that so many on the right have taken to comment sections where they previously were not found. Or I can think they were sent there. Read the article; it is plausible they were sent there.

      --
      "What the American public doesn't know is what makes them the American public." -Ray Zalinsky (Tommy Boy)
    179. Re:Just the beginning by chispito · · Score: 1

      Either Trump's supporters just all decided to get active online at the same time, or there is a coordinated effort going on.

      Maybe people are just tired of being told that they only reason they voted the way they did was because they were manipulated, uneducated, or racist. Or maybe you're right, and just like your candidate knew all along, the Vast Right Wing Conspiracy is alive and well.

      And all those people just decided to get online and tweak the liberals? Please don't assume who my candidate was. I am not a Democrat, and think the "My team vs. Your team" dynamic is damaging to our democracy.

      Nor am I a Republican or on either of those "teams." I doubt there is a coordinated effort by the far right to astroturf online. It seems much more likely that you're just encountering emboldened trolls.

      --
      The Daddy casts sleep on the Baby. The Baby resists!
    180. Re: Just the beginning by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You're welcome. I call out bullshit as I see it.

      Oh really? Then can you show your history of pointing out how Trump is all hat and no cattle? How he can't help but offer empty words that make him about as substantial as one of those dancing characters that gesticulate wildly as the air moves through them, but lack anything inside?

      The bullshit has been thick on him, if I could put it on my garden, I'd grow the YUGEST TOMATOES. YUGE!

      I never liked Trump, but I supported him over Hillary this election because I think immigration is out of control, Islam is a real threat, and "progressive" identity politics had gone too far.

      Oh, so you pointed out the bullshit over his feckless executive bans (what kind of idiot tries to blanket remove approved visas for people in the air?) that are now being challenged due to his own stated plans for a Muslim ban(which he wants us to ignore now, since they make him look bad, but he's a man of his word, so shouldn't be take him at it?), and denounced his use of identity politics (which even included his surrogates claiming Obama invented Racial tensions), as a pernicious influence on the country? His sanctuary cities denunciations have been roundly criticized, his list of so-called crimes committed by "immigrants" buried after it started listing toddlers, and his list of terrorist acts became an object of scorn and mockery. And even BLM is beating him, notice how nobody has managed even the most tepid criticism of the response to the Texas shooting?

      Also, did you denounce his Mexican wall, his resorting to false claims about us not discussing Obama's deportations, and how he's bullshitted us with stories about deporting criminals, while he's busy deporting parents who have committed no real crimes?

      Good for you. Where did you show it?

      All exasperated by a political correctness that was strangling the country.

      Indeed, the right-wing dogmas that they find politically correct are strangling the country, and Trump's all sizzle and no steak makes it all the more important to slaughter their sacred cows.

      I see Trump as an antidote to some of that, but that doesn't mean I'm going to blindly support him.

      An antidote, or more like Chemo drugs, the toxic poison that you hope kills the cancerous tumor before it kills the rest of you?

      Hmm, well, that's a choice. I've never favored the Deutscher approach, but then I never understood why it was a business in the first place. It just seems a stupid risk. Time travel to kill dinosaurs? With what they knew? But that's your responsibility, so on your head be it.

      Also, you may want to look up the history of sexual assaults at Oktoberfest. It may not be as bad as Spring Break or Mardi Gras in the US, but it's nothing new. Then again, there is Germany's own history. The Nazis got up to some pernicious interbreeding themselves.

    181. Re: Just the beginning by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      What a load of horseshit.

      Yes, those are banned in bakeries too.

      Freedom of association is the basic default in a free society.

      We're talking about dis-association, and you don't have the right to impose that on others.

      See Shelley v. Kramer. See Heart of Atlanta Motel v. United States.

      The one imposing is the government and couple insisting he either bakes a cake against his religious beliefs or goes out of business.

      If your religious beliefs prevent you from serving customers without imposing your religion on them, I fail to see why you should be able to compel society to impose on people who just want a cake.

      What next, allowing your religion to decide who gets to adopt babies? Who gets a divorce? How people can pay you? Whether or not I can eat meat on whatever day I like? Whose marriage is legally enforced?

      see Obergefell v. Hodges, Adar v. Smith, and Kitzmiller v. Dover Area School District.

      Society, however, has decided that bakers can't compel us to respect their refusal to bake cakes for people based on their relationship.

      Nobody is compelling "respect".

      Well, not for religious people who want their religion to control our lives, no. That's the point. They aren't allowed to do that. We don't live in their theocracy.

      Just take your fucking business elsewhere.

      Fucking is a whole different business, though yes, we should certainly disallow religions from having control of that as well. There are valid concerns when it comes to regulation of sexual intercourse, but as Griswold v. Connecticut and Lawrence v. Texas show, it should not be driven by religion.

      So far, you've not shown any legal cases to even support your contention, so exactly why should I allow a baker to break contracts, and summon the police, just because their religion compels them? Why must I subject myself to their control? That is what you want, isn't it? How else will you handle it, because it has happened, so you can't ignore it.

    182. Re: Just the beginning by aquacrayfish · · Score: 1

      The baker is at fault for attempting to impose his beliefs on society at large.

      What a load of horseshit. Freedom of association is the basic default in a free society. The one imposing is the government and couple insisting he either bakes a cake against his religious beliefs or goes out of business.

      I have yet to understand this mindset. When you go into business, your personal beliefs should not be driving how you conduct business. You enter that space as a business owner. Granted, if you consistently make more bad decisions than not, you will eventually go out of business.

      That being said, it's no different than the old Hobby Lobby argument. Your core business is not religion (it's cakes, or art, or... whatever) - it's something else. In this instance, the wedding cake business is not a religious establishment. That is the belief of the person owning the business. I don't see why the owner's personal beliefs should transcend, legally, to the business. People who cannot keep those thought processes separate should not be business owners.

      Granted, this is easy for me to say as someone who isn't a business owner. I know I don't have the mindset for it.

    183. Re: Just the beginning by Raenex · · Score: 1

      Then can you show your history of pointing out how Trump is all hat and no cattle?

      I don't know if you are the same Anonymous Coward that I replied to, but either way you should have noticed what I was thanked for.

    184. Re: Just the beginning by Raenex · · Score: 1

      We're talking about dis-association, and you don't have the right to impose that on others.

      Actually, you do. It's the default. It's only when the government overreaches that all of a sudden it somehow becomes the business imposing on others instead of practicing their freedom of association, something which was saliently pointed out by the original Anonymous Coward (perhaps you) when they said:

      "if he didn't say why he was turning down service he would be fine. Hell, he could probably tell them to fuck off and get out of his store because "he didn't like the way they looked at him" "

      So far, you've not shown any legal cases to even support your contention

      I'm talking about government overreach. You do realize the courts are part of the government, right?

    185. Re: Just the beginning by Raenex · · Score: 1

      I have yet to understand this mindset.

      It's called liberty and freedom of association. It's what the country was founded on.

      When you go into business, your personal beliefs should not be driving how you conduct business.

      Your business is part of your life, and you should run it as you see fit. For some business owners that may mean taking less profit and doing the "right" thing, whatever it is they consider that to be. In fact, it's generally recognized that business owners have this right except when the government decides to intervene.

      Granted, if you consistently make more bad decisions than not, you will eventually go out of business.

      Indeed, that's the dumbest thing about this government overreach. The couple could have easily found another baker who would have been happy to take their business. But they decided the business owner had to put aside their religious beliefs and work against their will.

    186. Re:Just the beginning by gweihir · · Score: 1

      I actually think this would be a good idea.

      --
      Most ACs are not even worth the keystrokes to insult them. Be generically insulted by this and ignored otherwise.
    187. Re:Just the beginning by gweihir · · Score: 1

      Lets talk again in 10 years. Then it should have become obvious to you too.

      --
      Most ACs are not even worth the keystrokes to insult them. Be generically insulted by this and ignored otherwise.
    188. Re:Just the beginning by ebvwfbw · · Score: 1

      Why are so many people still in denial? It wasn't Trump. It wasn't race, women, Russians... and so on and so on... recently Hillary even tried to blame the date of the election, which her own people said didn't matter.

      Fact is, it was her election to lose and there wasn't enough lipstick to put on that pig to win. Just face it, she's a loser, lost more than one time for the Presidency. This isn't hard people. Be very thankful she lost.

      Then there is the fact that the Democrats have nobody else. Just some old farts, that will likely pass away before the next election anyhow. Hello, Democrats, anyone listening? I don't think they're in.

    189. Re: Just the beginning by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Granted, this is easy for me to say as someone who isn't a business owner. I know I don't have the mindset for it.

      Oh, it's quite simple. Instead of baking cakes for a living (That's hard work!), you pull a stunt, and get all the deluded Christians to think you're a victim of the evul Gubbermint Oppression and they pay you money for it.

      Same reason they used to fake amputations, it's easier than the real thing.

    190. Re:Just the beginning by peawormsworth · · Score: 1

      Did you forget that facebook knows all your friends?

      Facebook knows which friends you like and which you don't based on clicking "like" more often on closer friends then those you don't talk to or like much.

      The number of friends you have and the likes you get probably correlate with your social political influence.

      And when you scroll down, facebook knows what you read and what you don't based on how quickly you scroll or pause as pictures and text are displayed.

      Facebook knows your work or if your unemployed, if you have medical issues and your sleeping and eating patterns and probably how often you poop.

    191. Re:Just the beginning by peawormsworth · · Score: 1

      Plenty of websites know all that about you. Or about most people, anyway.

      Sure, but facebook knows a lot more than most websites. Probably more than your bank or employer. I mean you don't declare your friends list to the bank. And you don't report your sleeping patterns to your employer.

    192. Re: Just the beginning by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It's what the country was founded on.

      Not true, as Scalia, Alito and Thomas insisted, the country was founded on religious principles that could not be denied. I believe Roberts left that out though.

      Like the historical practice of Slavery and Racism is part of the country. As Chief Justice Taney opined. At length. And so did Alexander H. Stephens and Henry Billings Brown.

      Still, the fact is, religious bias and discrimination was behind the formation of many colonies. They didn't land on Plymouth Rock for freedom, they fled to the New World because they wanted their own theocracy. Roger Williams could educate you on that.

      The thing is, all of that was explicitly and expressly rejected as no more appropriate than having a monarch. Thus the Pilgrims have no more power than the Plantation owners or the Royal Throne.

      That's the world for you, always changing.

    193. Re:Just the beginning by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Actually, no. Billionaires would generally prefer the weaker, yet more direct candidate. Trump is shameless about supporting the wealthy, and barely gives a passing mention to the working class. This gives the billionaires who put him in plausible deniability to their true intentions. They would still need to pussyfoot around with Jeb! or Hillary, and their agenda would take much longer to realize.

    194. Re:Just the beginning by GLMDesigns · · Score: 1

      Let's put your prediction on record. What will be the dire effects of Brexit on the UK? Scotland may vote to separate from the UK. Is that a good thing? I think so. England will have greater control over its borders and laws. I think that's a good thing as I'm not in favor of either Imperial Washington or Imperial Brussels,

      You think there will be dire economic consequences. I disagree.

      We'll see.

      --
      If you're scared of your govt then you need to further restrict its powers
      Vote 3rd Party in 2016 and beyond
    195. Re: Just the beginning by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Then can you show your history of pointing out how Trump is all hat and no cattle?

      I don't know if you are the same Anonymous Coward that I replied to, but either way you should have noticed what I was thanked for.

      Perhaps you didn't notice, that it was your praise for him that was revealed as truthfully a condemnation?

      Yeah, in reality, you were trying to defend his actions, but you totally ignored the consequences of your misbegotten praise anyway.

      C'mon, pony up some real meat, show you can do what you said, not your laughable attempt to say "Trump isn't such a bad guy, he totally backed off on all the promises he made, yay Donald!" when in reality, what Trump did was make promises that he couldn't and didn't want to keep(not that he cared, but he should have known better than to do that), and you, and especially Paul Ryan (who has dreamed of killing Medicaid for some reason), didn't want him to keep anyway. That's just you chewing the bullshit and savoring the taste, but really running your mouth enough we can smell the odor.

      Let's see you deliver on what you said you could do. Provide us with your denunciations of Trump's history of bullshittery. He's got a LONG history, so you have plenty of material. Show you can do it.

    196. Re: Just the beginning by Plumpaquatsch · · Score: 1

      You voted for Trump because you identify with his white nationalism and you blindly hate the left. You feel like you're losing all the entitlements and benefits you had as a white male and you blame it on women and minorities....

      As a white male, this is the funniest thing I've read all day! In all seriousness, though, THIS is the reason why Trump won. Average people who go to work every day, spend time with the family, and try to be involved in their communities are tired of being labeled, called names, told they're meanies, etc. when they don't agree with mouth-foaming liberals. Liberals have nobody to blame but yourselves for Trump.

      So you knowingly elect a moron not fit to be President - yeah that will make sure nobody ever calls you names again [rolls eyes]

      --
      Of course news about a fake are Fake News.
    197. Re: Just the beginning by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You voted for Trump because you identify with his white nationalism and you blindly hate the left.

      Actually I am a socialist so not voting for Hilldog has nothing to do with hating the left. I am left according to you. Hilldog IS NOT ON THE LEFT. Hilldog is almost as far right as Trump. Almost but not left at all. Just look at the money behind her.

      You feel like you're losing all the entitlements and benefits you had as a white male and you blame it on women and minorities,

      Actually I am Native American NOT WHITE! let's not get insulting. You are right in that I am losing all the entitlements and benefits I had as a Middle Class American. The things I have lost have NOTHING to do with being white. No I don't blame women nor minorities hell I am a minority. I do blame rich thiefing assholes like both Hillary and Trump and the corporations behind them.

      but really it's because you got lazy and complacent and thought a GED would get you through life because you're white.

      Well I happen to have a PHD not a GED and again I AM NOT WHITE!!!

      She's left and you hate the left because they give minorities things for free and care more about people and the environment than money.

      AGAIN! Hillary has never been to the left of anything where do you get this crap from. Now Bernie was left center NOT! Hillary. Just look at her backers.

      And if none of that is true,

      Actually nothing you have said so far is true.

      it means you voted for Trump only because of Hillary's failings, ignoring all the other candidates on the ballot,And if none of that is true, it means you voted for Trump only because of Hillary's failings, ignoring all the other candidates on the ballot,

      Actually I voted for Johnson the only dog left in the race with any level of honesty. I would have voted for Bernie. I did in the primary. I didn't vote for Hillary because she broke the law. Laws that if I broke them would have put me away for years. Yet she is stilll walking around. Also her "pay to play" while in office. The woman is a crook. A vile and evil person who only cares about herself and her power.

      ignoring all the other candidates on the ballot,

      No I voted for Johnson you are the one that ignored the rest and voted for a crook.

      a rich narcissistic sociopath with zero political experience or self-control, who has never done a single thing in his life for his country or other people. Trump doesn't care about you or this country, all he cares about is getting money.

      This I can agree with.

      BTW how much did you get paid to write this dribble? Who do you work for?

    198. Re: Just the beginning by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      We're talking about dis-association, and you don't have the right to impose that on others.

      Actually, you do. It's the default.

      Nope. It's not, neither you nor I have a right, by default, to impose on others. Zero. None.

      If you did, that'd make you inherently superior, able to diminish and override others. That'd be wrong. You're not, and never will be greater than another.

      Therefore, it is only circumstantial considerations that matter. And circumstances where it has been seen fit to reject your desire to impose on others, include business transactions where your refusal hinges upon race, religion, sexual orientation, and disabilities, among others.

      Sorry, but your desire to compel the rest of us to follow the tenets of your religion has been rejected.

      It's only when the government overreaches that all of a sudden it somehow becomes the business imposing on others instead of practicing their freedom of association,

      Indeed, a government imposing on others to grant your religious dictates the force of law is overreach, that is correct, and hence why same reason Churches don't get eminent domain, or the right to close down businesses.

      They tried though. See Larkin v. Grendel's Den. Sorry dude, no churches telling people where they can run their businesses either.

      something which was saliently pointed out by the original Anonymous Coward (perhaps you) when they said:

      "if he didn't say why he was turning down service he would be fine. Hell, he could probably tell them to fuck off and get out of his store because "he didn't like the way they looked at him" "

      Yes, you can lie about your motivations and get away with a lot of things. That's how con artists work.

      And a baker faking say, sudden illness to avoid preparing a cake, is not going to be high on the investigation list.

      It can even include "secular" reasons, see all the pharmacies who refuse to dispense certain
      medications because they're afraid of being prosecuted. They're not being prosecuted, even though people are dying.

      Sometimes you get caught though. See Edwards v. Aguillard. Bob Jones University v. United States.
      Selman v. Cobb County School District. LeVake v. Independent School District 656.

      So far, you've not shown any legal cases to even support your contention

      I'm talking about government overreach.

      Churches getting power over government is certainly overreach.

      See McCreary County v. American Civil Liberties Union. Epperson v. Arkansas. McLean v. Arkansas.

      You do realize the courts are part of the government, right?

      And they've decided that the government (and individuals) shouldn't be compelled to support your religion.

      See Thornton v. Caldor. County of Allegheny v. American Civil Liberties Union. Glassroth v. Moore.

      Sorry, but you can't use your religion to deny people cakes, for weddings or otherwise. Not and have the government's support and endorsement. Or housing. Or a baby. Or a loan for a car. Or medication. You don't get to impose your will and dictates on others just because you think a Bearded Man in the Sky, a Flying Spaghetti Monster, or your Toaster told you to do so.

      Feel free to impose on yourself, but that may have consequences. Just like a pharmacist refusing to fulfill a prescription may have consequences.

      Noesen v. Wisconsin Department of Regulation and Licensing Pharmacy Examining Board, Stormans, Inc. v. Wiesman.

      You want to turn people away for religious reasons? Stick to operating a Church, not a Bakery, Pharmacy, Apartment Housing, or Adoption Agency.

      Though don't be like Kent. Kent was naughty.

      If you want a religious theocracy, you'll need to move somewhere like Iran or Saudi Arabia, even the UK has repealed their blasphemy laws.

      Of course, they may not pick your religion, but what are you going to do? Protest?

    199. Re:Just the beginning by jwhitener · · Score: 1

      Waiting for the public to take a greater interest in politics, or expecting more people to become better informed, is something you'll wait your whole life for and never see.

      Promoting end user behavior change is far less effective than putting systems in place to 'force' change.

      That is why when a city wants to increase recycling, they don't beg their citizens to recycle more. No, they put a program in place that makes it either easier to recycle, or harder not to recycle.

      Instant run off voting is a system that would help I think.

      Instead of voting only for a single candidate, voters in IRV elections can rank the candidates in order of preference.

      I bet more people would have voted for Bernie if they could have also voted for Hillary. Hedging their bets.

      There are systems that would help reduce or remove the effects of Gerrymandering. Heck, getting rid of the Electoral College with zero other changes would have meant Al Gore instead of George Bush and Hillary instead of Trump.

      The problem is convincing politicians and news agencies to undo the systems that keep the hyper-partisanship alive. It is their bread and butter. That is why I encourage friends and family to vote for politicians who want things like instant run off voting, or campaign finance reform. Solve the problems at the source instead of trying to fight the resulting problems.

    200. Re:Just the beginning by jwhitener · · Score: 1

      despite increasingly favorable demographic advantages.

      That advantage has been systemically taken off the board though. The 2010 gerrymandering alone removes the advantage. But you can also toss in things like voter id (aka suppression) laws as well. Here is the Governor of Pennsylvania admitting that voter id laws will help Romney win his state: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EuOT1bRYdK8

      But it can't go on forever, eventually demographic changes will force the Republicans to change. Change their messaging at the very least, but eventually their policies.

       

    201. Re:Just the beginning by jwhitener · · Score: 1

      Do you think that "the elite" wanted TPP cancelled, NAFTA re-negotiated, and subsidized pensions/healthcare for coal miners?

      Do you think 'the elite' care about the messaging of a campaign vs what is actually done once in office? Because so far Trump has accomplished zero of his promised changes, so..... time will tell I guess.

    202. Re: Just the beginning by Raenex · · Score: 1

      Perhaps you didn't notice, that it was your praise for him that was revealed as truthfully a condemnation?

      Nope, you thought you had a "gotcha" moment. I was being brutally honest in my take on the situation. If I wanted to "praise" him I would have spun it in a positive manner. The problem is you're so biased that you can't assess the situation in an impartial manner.

      C'mon, pony up some real meat

      If you want a debate with me, then get an account and use it. I'm generally disinclined to respond to Anonymous Cowards, and when you don't argue in good faith and try to extend the argument to all things Trump, I'm not going to comply.

    203. Re: Just the beginning by Raenex · · Score: 1

      Nope. It's not, neither you nor I have a right, by default, to impose on others. Zero. None.

      Good, then you agree that the gay couple does not have the right to impose their beliefs on the baker, and force him to bake a cake against his will. We are, after all, talking about what it means to live in a free society, so surely you aren't using Orwellian language to call slavery, freedom, and vice versa.

      Sorry, but your desire to compel the rest of us to follow the tenets of your religion has been rejected.

      I'm an atheist. I have no desire to impose my lack of belief on the baker. It is you who insists the baker must be forced to act against his will. The gay couple, using freedom of association, could have gotten their cake from another baker, so they would have been able to have their wedding and eat their cake too, without imposing on the original baker.

      Yes, you can lie about your motivations and get away with a lot of things. That's how con artists work.

      The point you're missing is that you can legally refuse business for any number of reasons because that's the default in a free society. A con artist would not recognize this point and would use Orwellian speech to portray a baker exercising freedom of association as "imposing".

    204. Re: Just the beginning by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Nope, you thought you had a "gotcha" moment.

      Nope, I thought your praise of him was nauseating, and remarked upon how it was actually a condemnation. Even now, I suspect you can't forthrightly state that everything you said was a reason to find Trump repellent and disgusting while admitting that you found it admirable as you fawned over his ability to pull a scam job on the people who believed him.

      I was being brutally honest in my take on the situation.

      Funny, you're not even honest enough to admit you were praising him for not keeping his promises, and just wanting credit, without caring about the cost, or the consequences of his actions. Just as long as he gets that praise.

      If I wanted to "praise" him I would have spun it in a positive manner.

      Except, you did spin it in a positive manner, to you, it was a good thing. Yet you can't even admit to that.

      The problem is you're so biased that you can't assess the situation in an impartial manner.

      Ah, the problem I have is that you can't even admit to your own words. I am kinda biased against your lies, I'll admit that.

      C'mon, pony up some real meat

      If you want a debate with me, then get an account and use it.

      If you want a debate with me, back up your own words with a demonstration of your ability to call out Bullshit on Trump. Genuine, straightforward, not your sycophantic praise of Trump's ability to pull a con job over on folks.

      Make sure to include some self-admissions too, it'd really make a good point for you to own up to your own disingenuous behavior, and your failure to actually do what would have shown your claimed ability.

      I'm generally disinclined to respond to Anonymous Cowards, and when you don't argue in good faith and try to extend the argument to all things Trump, I'm not going to comply.

      I'm generally inclined to respond to you as an Anonymous Coward when you don't argue in good faith, and when you don't even try to back up your words about being able to call out bullshitting, but instead heap on more of your own, I'm going to continue to do so.

    205. Re: Just the beginning by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I have no idea what the mouth-foaming conservatives say because I don't listen to garbage talk radio, but I can assure you that mouth-foaming liberals exist.

      And so what? There wasn't a disputation that they existed, just a disputation of the meaningfulness of them.

      So why does their existence matter?

      The GP post above is a great example of one. He rages against straw men and calls people hateful names.

      Oh no, the horrors. But actually, he's a great example of somebody, no matter how uncouth, speaking some truths.

      He's not trolling and there are many people like him.

      He's not wrong, and there are many people like PoopJuggler describes.

      I'm at a university, so I see plenty of them all of the time. They assume I'm one, too, so they foam around me but not at me, but they certainly foam.

      I'm not at a university, but I see plenty of the type PoopJuggler talks about, they assume I'm one too, so they foam around me, but not at me, but they certainly foam. And rage. And I'm related to them. I know they exist, they're out there. And they have more impact than I like.

      But more importantly, I don't agree with denying they exist. Yet that is the paradigm of the folks who would rather blame the liberals for them.

      I didn't vote for either of the two major party clowns, either, by the way. A pox on both their houses.

      Good for you, oh wait, you just wasted your vote! Should have voted for Kodos.

    206. Re: Just the beginning by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      We're talking about dis-association, and you don't have the right to impose that on others.

      Actually, you do. It's the default.

      Nope. It's not, neither you nor I have a right, by default, to impose on others. Zero. None.

      Good, then you agree that the gay couple does not have the right to impose their beliefs on the baker, and force him to bake a cake against his will.

      Oh, let's include some words for context. Added back. As you already admitted, disassociating others is an imposition, and while you can do that(it is not prohibited per se), it is only allowed under certain circumstances.

      Certainly not as you claimed, by default. That's your problem, you tried to make it the default. It isn't.

      Not by far. Only in particular circumstances will the state recognize your attempts to compel others to disassociate as lawful.

      Same with operating a business, such as a bakery. There are multitudes of requirements to operating one. This includes obeying the laws which require you not to discriminate on certain grounds that are considered unlawful. You don't get to have a bakery, by default.

      We are, after all, talking about what it means to live in a free society, so surely you aren't using Orwellian language to call slavery, freedom, and vice versa.

      Surely you aren't calling up the dreaded specter of Orwell's fiction to cloak your words in an aura of respectability?

      Oh wait, you are.

      But no, I can't say we're talking about what you claim either. I'm not anyway. You may be, but I've not even included the term. Personally, I don't even know for sure what you mean by it, but I think you've demonstrated enough errors to indicate you're not accurately describing the society we do live within.

      Sorry, but your desire to compel the rest of us to follow the tenets of your religion has been rejected.

      I'm an atheist. I have no desire to impose my lack of belief on the baker. It is you who insists the baker must be forced to act against his will.

      But it is you who insists the gay couple must be forced to act against their will. By not getting the particular cake they want, and are willing to pay for.

      Hence, you have every desire to impose your beliefs on the rest of us. You just won't admit to it.

      That makes you dishonest about yourself. You seem to think your tenets are considered acceptable to compel others upon, but you're not even admitting to them. That isn't going to even come close to acceptable.

      The gay couple, using freedom of association, could have gotten their cake from another baker, so they would have been able to have their wedding and eat their cake too, without imposing on the original baker.

      Which, again, demonstrates your desire to impose upon them. You seek to make them go to another baker. Rather than purchase the cake the man, who chose to be a baker, was fully capable of making, and was going to make by written contract, except for his desire to impose his beliefs on others, which caused him to suddenly seek to impose upon them and force them to seek a cake elsewhere.

      Sorry, but I don't support his imposition in the circumstances. It's for reasons that don't pass muster. He wants his religion to be superior. He wants the state to intervene, and support his desire to break a lawful contract. For business he routinely performs and which he'd perform for others with no qualm, and little question.

      Nope. On the other hand, I am persuaded by the reasons to tell him to bake the cake without regards to the sexuality of the persons involved, the same as I would be to race, disability, or language, or certain other characteristics.

      Same as I'm persuaded by the reasons to tell him to accept the payment in the currency of this country, to abide by hygiene laws, and to carry insurance.

    207. Re: Just the beginning by Raenex · · Score: 1

      As you already admitted, disassociating others is an imposition

      Wrong, I was asserting the right to not associate, not "admitting" your Orwellian terminology. What I made clear in that comment and others is that free association, which includes the right to not associate, is not an imposition, but rather it is those who would force association and work for others who are imposing.

      But it is you who insists the gay couple must be forced to act against their will. By not getting the particular cake they want, and are willing to pay for.

      Paging Dr. Orwell. Paging Dr. Orwell. We've got a live one here. Doublethink is doubleplus activated.

      The point you're missing is that you cannot legally refuse business for reasons that are deliberately and specifically rejected by the society we live in.

      No, I already acknowledged the legal standing as part of government overreach against the principles of a free society. It is you who refuse to acknowledge that in the general case that, absent those special cases carved out in the law, the business owner has a right to free association and to refuse service. That makes you intellectually dishonest, despite that fact that you already admitted that the baker could have chosen to lie about his reasons and refused service based on his default rights of free association, thus working around the carved out exceptions in the law. It's only possible because the law has carved out those exceptions out of the default freedom of association.

      Given your dishonest propaganda and failure to argue honestly, along with the argument going in circles, I will use my right to free association and longer reply.

    208. Re: Just the beginning by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      As you already admitted, disassociating others is an imposition

      Wrong, I was asserting the right to not associate, not "admitting" your Orwellian terminology.

      We're not talking about a right to not associate, we're talking about a disassociation of others.

      They're quite different. The baker was demanding that others leave, not exercising the right for himself not to enter.

      What I made clear in that comment and others is that free association, which includes the right to not associate, is not an imposition, but rather it is those who would force association and work for others who are imposing.

      No, you didn't make that clear, but what you are making clear, is that you don't realize that we're talking about an imposition of disassociation upon others, which is to force others to leave, and not even receive the work they already paid to have done.

      But it is you who insists the gay couple must be forced to act against their will. By not getting the particular cake they want, and are willing to pay for.

      Paging Dr. Orwell. Paging Dr. Orwell. We've got a live one here. Doublethink is doubleplus activated.

      Yes, yes, like I said, you've made it quite clear that you'll try to associate yourself with Orwell, rather than recognize the actual substance of what you're asking to be done, or try to make your points without the cloak of another around you.

      But it's actually rather unoriginal, and inaccurate. At least pick a complaint that's accurate, because in reality, I'm doing the opposite of doublethink, specifying and identifying what's actually going on, rather than allow your misidentification to remain unchallenged.

      The point you're missing is that you cannot legally refuse business for reasons that are deliberately and specifically rejected by the society we live in.

      No, I already acknowledged the legal standing as part of government overreach against the principles of a free society.

      Oh, I see you didn't define what you mean by free society yet. That's something I might have forgotten to ask you to do, but you should define it. I submit that it is possible, depending on your definition that you aren't correct, and we don't live in such a state.

      Certainly the people who have chosen to agree to abide by the laws of the state in order to form a corporation to expressly limit their liability don't, but have chosen to engage the protections of the state, which comes with quite a set of conditions.

      It is you who refuse to acknowledge that in the general case that, absent those special cases carved out in the law, the business owner has a right to free association and to refuse service.

      Indeed, as that's both mistaken, as we are talking about the right to disassociate(in other words, to use the power of the state to impose on others), and irrelevant, as the specific case is one where it is carved out in the law as one where the state will not allow itself to be used support your actions. Or allow you the discretion to do so.

      That makes you intellectually dishonest, despite that fact that you already admitted that the baker could have chosen to lie about his reasons and refused service based on his default rights of free association, thus working around the carved out exceptions in the law.

      Nope, it makes me capable of realizing that a person can work around the parameters of the law to achieve their desired end, even if it is contravening the rights of others.

      Sad, but true. It is an unfortunate limitation of humanity. We are capable of being deceived and misled.

      It's only possible because the law has carved out those exceptions out of the default freedom of association.

      Nope, it's possible because you can lie, and sometimes achie

    209. Re:Just the beginning by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      That is the definition of democracy. Call them names all you want, Mr. "I hate identity politics", but democracy is based on the principle of 1 person = 1 vote. Not one educated, literate, white male person = 1 vote.

  2. Only those we disagree with "hijack democracy" by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

    If we agree with the person doing the activity?

    Why, that's just democracy in action!

    1. Re:Only those we disagree with "hijack democracy" by Gravis+Zero · · Score: 1

      Only those we disagree with "hijack democracy"

      Not really. If you are spreading misinformation or FUD to influence voters then you are "hijacking" democracy. If you are merely promoting the truth to influence voters then it's called campaigning.

      What makes one different from the other is that democracy is designed around the idea that people will vote for what is in there interest (altered by misinformation) rather than reflexively (altered by FUD).

      --
      Anons need not reply. Questions end with a question mark.
    2. Re:Only those we disagree with "hijack democracy" by WhiplashII · · Score: 1

      OK then, which were the Russians engaged in? They revealed true, but damaging, information about the Democratic candidate in the United States. They almost certainly used illegal means to do so.

      Is that democracy in action? Is that hijacking democracy?

      In the words of the true guardians of the galaxy, a little bit of both?

      --
      while (sig==sig) sig=!sig;
    3. Re:Only those we disagree with "hijack democracy" by Gravis+Zero · · Score: 1

      They revealed true, but damaging, information about the Democratic candidate in the United States. [...]
      Is that democracy in action? Is that hijacking democracy?

      Despite being true it's hijacking due to it's timing. Last minute revelations fall under the category of FUD because they are intended to evoke a reflexive psychological response which is definitely something that happened in the US. I think this is why the French have a law against campaigning immediately before the vote.

      --
      Anons need not reply. Questions end with a question mark.
  3. Nothing to hide by 605dave · · Score: 5, Interesting

    When informed about mass surveillance and privacy issues many people respond that they have "nothing to hide". My response to them is that they may have no criminal activity to hide, but with all that information they can be me manipulated without knowing it. I give the example of a first date. If you know what the person likes and dislikes before the date you can easily shape your approach to the evening, presenting yourself to be as pleasing as possible.

    This is exactly what theses projects are doing to us on a national level, manipulating people one by one. And that's the danger of having so much data about ourselves out there. We can be influenced and manipulated on a personal and societal scale simply by these groups knowing so much about us.

    --
    Be kind, for everyone you meet is fighting a difficult battle. - Plato
    1. Re:Nothing to hide by 110010001000 · · Score: 2

      That gives me a good idea. I should start a company that influences what people do. I would call it "Marketing" or something like that.

    2. Re:Nothing to hide by Baron_Yam · · Score: 1

      For a moment there I thought you were going to suggest you'd be offering something more specific - date consulting.

      Imagine the money you could squeeze out of guys by advanced cyber stalking, data mining, and analysis of potential dates. You could rate them on looks, personality, and, most importantly, likelihood of putting out for a particular client utilizing a particular approach.

    3. Re:Nothing to hide by 605dave · · Score: 5, Informative

      This goes way beyond traditional marketing. This isn't branding, this isn't an ad campaign, this isn't a PR slack on TV. This is psychological manipulation on a personal level.

      --
      Be kind, for everyone you meet is fighting a difficult battle. - Plato
    4. Re:Nothing to hide by 110010001000 · · Score: 2

      Sort of like...targeted marketing?

    5. Re:Nothing to hide by 605dave · · Score: 1

      Sort of. Except past the point of acceptability. At least that's my opinion. I don't believe democracy can survive mass psychological manipulation at this scale. There has always been propaganda for the masses, but this is different. This is propaganda for the individual.

      --
      Be kind, for everyone you meet is fighting a difficult battle. - Plato
    6. Re:Nothing to hide by tquasar · · Score: 1

      PsyOps. As was said in The Generals Daughter: We f**k with peoples minds. http://www.imdb.com/title/tt01...

    7. Re:Nothing to hide by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      ...so direct marketing?

      Yes, the tech makes it easier to work with individuals and not with aggregates... that's one of the key things about "big data" (you no longer have to work with aggregates).

    8. Re:Nothing to hide by penandpaper · · Score: 1

      mass psychological manipulation

      You mean politics? Because politicians/liars/thieves have never tried to manipulate opinions on a mass scale..

      I have a bridge to sell you.

      There has always been propaganda for the masses, but this is different. This is propaganda for the individual.

      What's the difference? Mass are just lots of individuals.

      How do I know you are not a paid troll/computer program promoting this idea to change by vote for the next election? Therein lies the solution. Everyone is trying to convince you of something. This is no different.

    9. Re:Nothing to hide by 605dave · · Score: 1

      I am both a paid troll AND a computer program you nub!

      --
      Be kind, for everyone you meet is fighting a difficult battle. - Plato
    10. Re:Nothing to hide by penandpaper · · Score: 1

      Me too!

    11. Re:Nothing to hide by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You've been warned about this for years, so what is acceptability?

    12. Re:Nothing to hide by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      When informed about mass surveillance and privacy issues many people respond that they have "nothing to hide". My response to them is that they may have no criminal activity to hide, but with all that information they can be me manipulated without knowing it. I give the example of a first date. If you know what the person likes and dislikes before the date you can easily shape your approach to the evening, presenting yourself to be as pleasing as possible.

      This is exactly what theses projects are doing to us on a national level, manipulating people one by one. And that's the danger of having so much data about ourselves out there. We can be influenced and manipulated on a personal and societal scale simply by these groups knowing so much about us.

      Its not that I have nothing to hide, I simply don't believe that hiding information is a viable option. It will be found. Or false data will be used in its stead.

      The problem is not the data. The problem is the way that it is used. Including they way it is used by you.

      If you lose out of a rewarding relationship because you are easily manipulated, take stock of your own shortcomings and lighten the fuck up. "Problem" solved.

  4. Wouldn't be a problem -if-... by johannesg · · Score: 5, Insightful

    This wouldn't be a problem if the media were still fulfilling their role of informing people of the facts, instead of also taking up the role of interpreter of those facts.

    So what if you're influenced by something you hear? That's normal: you receive information and act on it. You should, however, have -all- the information and not just the subset deemed supportive of the cause by invisible people, with the rest made up with suggestive phrasing and outright lies. But reporting of actual facts, supported by accurate and relevant numbers, has become a rarity, and finding those numbers is becoming less and less possible, despite the vast possibilities the internet offers for unlocking information.

    So it's all down to hollow phrases, and given that total lack of input, people become suggestible. I would suggest, however, that the solution lies in a well-educated population that is aware of the problem, and is given unlimited access to uncensored facts and figures.

    1. Re:Wouldn't be a problem -if-... by Jzanu · · Score: 2

      Then you get the dictatorship of the wealthy leisure class; they are the ones who can pay for access to all the information (hint: it isn't free) and have the spare time to to redundantly perform the analysis. Problem is that not only is that simply selecting a group to rule without any oversight, it acts to disenfranchise all of the people who do the work that makes civilization possible.

    2. Re: Wouldn't be a problem -if-... by fubarrr · · Score: 1, Interesting

      The same media landscape existed in mid-nineties Russia.

      Imagine a media channel that is worse than fox neuz on information/disinformation ratio. Worse than Infowars and Breibart. Orders of magnitude more vapid, energetic and aggressive at spewing mental bulshit than crazy street preachers.

      Now imagine that backing of such news organisation is a prerequisite for anybody to win any election. This is how it was, and this is what made Russian subhumans to vote in a former KGB leutenant into Kremlin.

    3. Re:Wouldn't be a problem -if-... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      But what you say about the media has always been true, because such a thing as an objective human being has never existed. It's a scale, more or less objective, but one that is truly objective doesn't exist.

      Everything you think, believe and know to be "true" is colored by your upbringing and your experiences.

      And you talk about "accurate and relevant numbers", those do not exist either, all data are interpretated somewhere, if not by the writer, then they have to be interpretated by the reader, who is completely unfit to interpret data. The understanding the average Joe has regarding statistics makes them completely unfit to understand and draw conclusions from data.

      That leads to another pet peeve of mine, we teach mathematics in schools that will be hardly ever used by a common human being. We should focus on statistics, percentages, how to balance your checkbook and how to do your taxes. Things that they can actually use and use to understand the world we are living in.

      I completely agree with "that the solution lies in a well-educated population that is aware of the problem, and is given unlimited access to uncensored facts and figures.".

    4. Re:Wouldn't be a problem -if-... by TheRaven64 · · Score: 1

      You should, however, have -all- the information and not just the subset deemed supportive of the cause by invisible people

      The main reason that we have representative, rather than direct, democracy is that no one has the time to do that. Do you understand the causes of the conflict in Syria? The economic impact of NAFTA? The costs and benefits of EU membership for each member state? People who spent their day jobs don't fully understand these, so what chance does the general population have? You need some kind of filter that will highlight the parts that are relevant for you to care about, the problem is that there's no accountability. News organisations can tell outright lies without penalty and ideological spin is an expected minimum.

      --
      I am TheRaven on Soylent News
    5. Re:Wouldn't be a problem -if-... by johannesg · · Score: 2

      Are you seriously saying opinion should be force fed to poor people because they are too poor to understand facts? That's just... wow.

      Any opinion in the media without underlying facts is mere propaganda. That's precisely what I'm arguing against. And since the government collects pretty much all information anyway, why not give it the task of opening its databases and letting people see facts?

      That also costs (some) money, but nobody ever said democracy should be free. In fact, some generations had to give their lives for it. Be glad you can keep the whole thing going just by paying a small fee...

    6. Re:Wouldn't be a problem -if-... by CrimsonAvenger · · Score: 4, Insightful

      You should, however, have -all- the information and not just the subset deemed supportive of the cause by invisible people

      So, when was the magical period when we had "all the information, not just the subset deemed suuportive of the cause"?

      Certainly wasn't this century.

      Or the 20th either.

      Hell, the Spanish-American War of the 19th Century was at least partly the result of the efforts of William Randolph Hearst and Joseph Pulitzer...

      And there were more than a few American newspapers pushing the people's buttons in the late 18th Century leading up to the American Revolution.....

      --

      "I do not agree with what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it"
    7. Re:Wouldn't be a problem -if-... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      > Then you get the dictatorship of the wealthy leisure class;

      The solution to that is simple: redistribute wealth.

    8. Re:Wouldn't be a problem -if-... by Jzanu · · Score: 1

      Not at all, the presentation of opinion is used as a brand and people are free to select what they follow. That is the free market practice of allowing individual choice. I believe your problem is the sheltered environment you know, ignoring the reality of the world and even of the majority of your fellow Americans. People don't have time to keep up with their own health, their families, or anything else. Why do you insist on increasing the burden for them?

    9. Re:Wouldn't be a problem -if-... by Jzanu · · Score: 1

      Maybe that will be possible, once 6 or so giant robots produce all the goods that the world requires and energy is so abundant that distribution costs disappear.

    10. Re:Wouldn't be a problem -if-... by h33t+l4x0r · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Right, as opposed to a congress that passed a health care bill that nobody read. Nobody in congress is doing their job, so why not direct democracy?

    11. Re:Wouldn't be a problem -if-... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Ooh! I love quizzes.

      Do you understand the causes of the conflict in Syria?

      Hillary and Obama

      The economic impact of NAFTA?

      Dey took our jobs.

      The costs and benefits of EU membership for each member state?

      impending genocide

      People who spent their day jobs don't fully understand these, so what chance does the general population have?

      About 50-50

    12. Re:Wouldn't be a problem -if-... by johannesg · · Score: 1

      You are right, but all of those flaws we have to live with. There is no benevolent intergalactic government we can appeal to for good governance of planet Earth. And I do not buy into the notion that a small elite of 'smarter' people is an acceptable, let alone the best solution. Down that road lie the gas chambers.

      Besides, we can do a hell of a lot better than we do now. Too many claims in the media go entirely unsupported by any kind of statistics. I'm not asking for perfection; I'm asking for honesty and an honest effort. That should be good enough.

    13. Re:Wouldn't be a problem -if-... by SimonInOz · · Score: 2

      There's a problem. Newspapers used to be funded by adverts - specifically classified adverts, notably on Saturdays. And now there are better ways, Craigslist, eBay, GumTree, etc. Better, yes, But no money flows to the newspapers.

      So they are desperately struggling for income. Subscriptions, anything really. But overall, they are no longer strong enough to be independent.

      TV ads are under heavy threat - DVRs, internet, NetFlix, Playstation, many things compete for attention. And money.

      So media is struggling financially. It's not surprising it is not quite the heavy hitter it used to be. It's easy to be bold when you have lots of sources of money ... when they are fading, it's harder.

      So we'd better subscribe to the newspapers and media we want.

      Or we won't have them. (Full disclosure, I subscribe to the Sydney Morning Herald and The Guardian).

      --
      "Cats like plain crisps"
    14. Re:Wouldn't be a problem -if-... by AmiMoJo · · Score: 4, Insightful

      It's not that the media fails to inform - there is informative media out there. During Brexit, for example, the BBC in particular and a few other neutral organizations did debunk the lies and post what little factual information was available. The problem is that people didn't want to hear it.

      In the post-truth world, people don't care about reality or facts. They only care about hearing what they want to hear, which is why populists did so well. Facebook is a great platform for this. Fake news and biased information on Facebook has credibility, because it appears to be coming from "friends". Not politicians, who all lie all the time, but friends and "ordinary people" who are far more trustworthy.

      It's a very efficient system. Someone posts a meme or some fake news. Lots of other people like it and re-post it, giving it credibility and truthiness. Any dissent or contradiction is quickly silenced by virtue of being comment #697 that no-one will ever read.

      --
      const int one = 65536; (Silvermoon, Texture.cs)
      SJW, n: "Someone I don't like, and by the way I'm a fuckwit" - AC
    15. Re:Wouldn't be a problem -if-... by kenh · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Perhaps the fact that a great majority of Democrats choose to get their news from comedians pretending to be journalists in front of studio audience on a cable channel rather than, you know, an actual news broadcast has some impact. Colbert, Oliver, Trevor, Maher, et all are NOT news shows, they are entertainment, as witnessed by the "laugh" signs in their studios.

      --
      Ken
    16. Re:Wouldn't be a problem -if-... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      ...So it's all down to hollow phrases, and given that total lack of input, people become suggestible.

      Gullible idiots, are gullible. Go figure.

      I would suggest, however, that the solution lies in a well-educated population that is aware of the problem, and is given unlimited access to uncensored facts and figures.

      Gullible idiots are also fucking lazy. They don't want to put forth the effort to research the truth.

    17. Re:Wouldn't be a problem -if-... by dehachel12 · · Score: 1

      >Not at all, the presentation of opinion is used as a brand
      what about stating an opinion as NEWS?

    18. Re:Wouldn't be a problem -if-... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      say, why don't you get us started by sharing your wealth? You don't mind, do you?

    19. Re:Wouldn't be a problem -if-... by CanadianMacFan · · Score: 1

      The problem is that people are going to believe what they want to believe. It's part of being human. We saw that with Brexit. The Leave side was promising all of this money for the NHS, no immigrants, sunshine every day, clown free circuses, etc. There were people, including some news organizations, calling out their lies. And we see how well that turned out.

    20. Re:Wouldn't be a problem -if-... by Tranzistors · · Score: 1

      If this is indeed your level of understanding, you have just illustrated the point of The Raven perfectly.

    21. Re:Wouldn't be a problem -if-... by rholtzjr · · Score: 1

      This has always been my interest in that the facts be presented to allow people to make their own decisions. If people wanted opinion, they should ask. This is why some people think that journalism is not what it used to be and not being as trustworthy as it once was. It seems recently to be more subjective instead of objective.

    22. Re:Wouldn't be a problem -if-... by DontBeAMoran · · Score: 1

      clown free circuses

      Oh, where do I sign?

      --
      #DeleteFacebook
    23. Re:Wouldn't be a problem -if-... by rholtzjr · · Score: 1

      The problem with that is there are some facts governments do not want you to know about. What I would like to know is who makes that determination and for what reason. There seems to be quite a bit more information that is deemed secret these days.

    24. Re:Wouldn't be a problem -if-... by james_marsh · · Score: 3, Informative

      Actually the BBC failed miserably to debunk the lies. In its typically misplaced idea of "neutrality" it would typically avoid making a factual statement and instead have interviewees on to make opposing points. The effect of this was to dignify the lie and place it in the centre ground.

      They've done this consistently for years, especially since coming under significant pressure from the Blair government around the Iraq war time (regarding the dodgy dossier, David Kelly etc). And now the threat of the Conservatives scrapping or reducing the licence fee appears to make them particularly timid about calling out political lies, for example never questioning the premise of austerity and the blame placed on the previous labour government.

      With the advent of 24 hour news the factual content is even more diluted and it's 90% speculation and sensational interviews with nutters.

      Channel 4 News in the UK does a much better job of fact checking and challenging, as does BBC Newsnight, but sadly they mostly only attract the educated and more liberal demographic that is less likely to be misled in the first place.

    25. Re:Wouldn't be a problem -if-... by grahamsz · · Score: 1

      The media have never been very good about being a purveyor of facts. I think I'd say that it was worse now, but there was never some golden age where there was no media bias.

      Simply by choosing which facts to present you are injecting your own opinion. Consider police brutality, it's long been a concern in minority communities but until fairly recently media outlets simply chose not to cover it so most American's grew up with a more positive view of the police.

    26. Re:Wouldn't be a problem -if-... by serviscope_minor · · Score: 2

      It's not that the media fails to inform - there is informative media out there. During Brexit, for example, the BBC in particular and a few other neutral organizations did debunk the lies and post what little factual information was available.

      Not very well. The large media organisations have been caught somewhat flat footed. I don't recall previous campaigns where one side was knowingly, brazenly lying about their biggest points as the Brexit leave campaing. In the past there's generally been some attempt to hide it, or weasel it and either way, both sides are usually as bad. This time they weren't.

      The trouble with being "neutral" when one side is objectively worse is that you end up giving equal time to the worst of the lies, which is what happened.

      --
      SJW n. One who posts facts.
    27. Re:Wouldn't be a problem -if-... by Freischutz · · Score: 1

      It's not that the media fails to inform - there is informative media out there. During Brexit, for example, the BBC in particular and a few other neutral organizations did debunk the lies and post what little factual information was available. The problem is that people didn't want to hear it.

      In the post-truth world, people don't care about reality or facts. They only care about hearing what they want to hear, which is why populists did so well. Facebook is a great platform for this. Fake news and biased information on Facebook has credibility, because it appears to be coming from "friends". Not politicians, who all lie all the time, but friends and "ordinary people" who are far more trustworthy.

      It's a very efficient system. Someone posts a meme or some fake news. Lots of other people like it and re-post it, giving it credibility and truthiness. Any dissent or contradiction is quickly silenced by virtue of being comment #697 that no-one will ever read.

      People do eventually learn to care about the issues over the message they want to hear. The problem is that they only learn after voting in a demagogue like Donald Trump and watching him trash their nation for four to eight years. Even worse is that this has to repeat itself every generation because young people are even less likely to listen to the people who have seen it all before than they are to read comment #697.

    28. Re:Wouldn't be a problem -if-... by jbmartin6 · · Score: 1

      Like so many other things, this is just an amplification by the net of things which were already there. There was never really a time of objective journalism, they have been taking sides since the invention of the printing press in China. We aren't living in a "post truth" world, it is the same old world. The only change is the massive shrieking feedback loop of the Internet.

      --
      This posting is provided 'AS IS' without warranty of any kind, implied or otherwise.
    29. Re:Wouldn't be a problem -if-... by Sique · · Score: 1
      But what mathematics we need for that?

      For statistics, you need combinatorics and calculus. For both of them, you need set theory and functions. For percentages, you need cross-multiplication, and you need to know how rational numbers work. Doing your taxes and balancing your checkbook is basic arithmetics, cross-multiplication, and understanding exponential growth.

      Looks to me as if that's quite close to the curriculum we have right now.

      --
      .sig: Sique *sigh*
    30. Re:Wouldn't be a problem -if-... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Democrats like to laugh at political jokes. Republicans vote political jokes into office.

      You didn't even try to demonstrate that these lefty comedians aren't providing accurate reporting and worthwhile insight.

    31. Re:Wouldn't be a problem -if-... by nine-times · · Score: 1

      This wouldn't be a problem if the media were still fulfilling their role of informing people of the facts, instead of also taking up the role of interpreter of those facts.

      If you're looking for objectivity, I think you're misunderstanding what's possible. The media cannot be simply a source of facts. Even if they provided nothing but facts, they're necessarily interpreting things by choosing which facts to present, and in what order. In order to group facts together into a story and decide which facts are relevant to that story, you have to interpret them.

      However, the interpretation isn't really the problem. Sensationalism is. News has become increasingly like the tabloids, reporting on what will catch the attention of the lowest common denominator. But honestly phrasing the problem that way is misleading, and doesn't indicate the real culprit. There is informative, relatively unbiased, not-very-sensationalistic news available. People don't read/watch it. It's not entirely the fault of the media, insofar as a lot of the news organizations are simply responding to what people are demanding.

    32. Re:Wouldn't be a problem -if-... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It turns out that the viewers of these comedy news shows are better informed than their "journalist" watching counterparts.

      They also appear to have fewer issues revolving around sexual harassment and racial discrimination.

    33. Re:Wouldn't be a problem -if-... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Informative

      My dad was a reporter for CBS News radio. He originally started at WCOA in Mobile Al in the late 1950's. He covered the march from Selma to Montgomery in 1965. He eventually moved to DC and WCBS radio ending up covering the White House before passing away in 1994.

      When ever I went to see him in my late teens to early 20's, I would occasionally go with him to work to watch him cover stories at the white house or capital hill, AND his exact words to me every time was if you are not telling both sides of the story all you are telling is propaganda. My dad made sure he was telling both sides of the story.

      Sadly I have failed to see that type of reporting since his passing. I used to watch CBS Evening news all the time. I switched every few years since his passing, to either ABC or NBC and maybe back again to CBS.

      But, I started noticing the downfall of news turning into propaganda since September 2001. I gave up watching any network news around the 2006 or 2007 timeframe and have never turned it back on.

      My dad is rolling over in his grave, God rest his soul.

    34. Re:Wouldn't be a problem -if-... by Fire_Wraith · · Score: 1

      And yet, you could do a lot worse than informing yourself on an issue by watching someone like John Oliver. You're going to get tons more relevant and factual information from watching one of his segments on a given issue than you ever will watching any one of a number of "opinion" personalities on most cable news networks.

    35. Re:Wouldn't be a problem -if-... by AmiMoJo · · Score: 3, Insightful

      The BBC started its Fact Check site, and Leave did come out a lot worse from it... Problem is, few people read it. Especially if they were already in the Leave camp, then they just dismissed it as left wing / establishment bias or the worthless opinion of experts.

      --
      const int one = 65536; (Silvermoon, Texture.cs)
      SJW, n: "Someone I don't like, and by the way I'm a fuckwit" - AC
    36. Re:Wouldn't be a problem -if-... by HornWumpus · · Score: 1

      Everybody, send me your money, before it's too late!

      --
      John McAfee 'It was like that time I hired that Bangkok prostitute; to do my taxes, while I fucked my accountant'
    37. Re:Wouldn't be a problem -if-... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You must be one of those viewers if you think that thinkprogress.org is a legitimate source.

    38. Re:Wouldn't be a problem -if-... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      OK, I hear your point about Dems listening to entertainment...

      But you ARE aware that Fox News is a propaganda machine, right? It doesn't present fair and impartial reporting, it produces Republican-approved reporting.

      So how exactly is watching an echo chamber of sculpted "news" meant to re-enforce my hate and biggotry ANY better than watching Colbert?

      You feel sorry for me, but I feel much more sorry for you. At least I KNOW when the program I'm watching is NOT news.

    39. Re:Wouldn't be a problem -if-... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      last time I had broadcast or cable tv the "news" was centered on sensationalism like the latest murder, drug arrest, tragedy X. It was not informational, it was ratings based. O'Reilly was an early incarnation of this, spinning his tales in a manner to evoke an emotional response, facts optional. The rise of pundits is an effort to gain more listeners because traditional news was failing to inform, unless you count the crack team of CNN or TLA news network on site droning on and on about the boston marathon bombing/fugitive manhunt..."Im here near the police barricade, and I see police. they are looking around, they may see something.......they are all looking at something; could it be a shoe? Yes, I think it is they found a shoe, and its got blood on it or its got red coloring in the design. And now they pick it, Donna back to you for a different prospective on the finding of a shoe." I myself tend to be searching for background any assertions I hear on those show that grab my attention as to who is worth listening to.

    40. Re:Wouldn't be a problem -if-... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      What makes an an actual news broadcast more accurate or informative than a comedian? Is there some sort of truthiness test that news anchors have to take?

      FOX news, for years, has been presenting opinions AS facts(OR alt-facts as Mrs Conway says) which is called propaganda.

    41. Re:Wouldn't be a problem -if-... by Raenex · · Score: 1

      And yet, you could do a lot worse than informing yourself on an issue by watching someone like John Oliver. You're going to get tons more relevant and factual information from watching one of his segments on a given issue than you ever will watching any one of a number of "opinion" personalities on most cable news networks.

      You'd get an incredibly biased view of an issue if all you did was watch John Oliver. I stopped watching him after he 1) perpetuated the debunked wage gap myth, and 2) made the ludicrous claim that the robbery video from the convenience store in the Ferguson case had no relevance to the "hands up, don't shoot" issue.

    42. Re:Wouldn't be a problem -if-... by Enigma2175 · · Score: 1

      if you are not telling both sides of the story all you are telling is propaganda

      You assume that every issue has 2 sides (and only 2 sides) and each is equally valid. That's certainly not the case for a ton of issues, like the "vaccination" issue or the "evolution" issue or the "pizzagate" issue or the "climate change" issue. I agree that the media has become too polarized but it's really just a reflection of the electorate - people WANT to live in their bubbles and only hear about things they agree with. Journalists used to want to inform the public, these days it's all about what gets eyeballs, the more sensationalist the better. It's certainly not a new phenomenon ("if it bleeds, it leads" is a pretty old saying) but it seems like the internet has allowed the sensationalism and polarization to become more pronounced.

      --

      Enigma

    43. Re:Wouldn't be a problem -if-... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If Oliver is only a comedian, then how was he able to break the FCC.gov site TWICE in his call for people to respond to Net Neutrality?
      I'd like to see one of the jokers on Fox "News" do that.

    44. Re:Wouldn't be a problem -if-... by Alsn · · Score: 1

      I don't care either way, but the source is the Pew Research Center (which to my knowledge is a non-partisan research group), not thinkprogress.org. They say so literally in the first sentence of the article.

      That said the article and poll are from 2007 and the percentage differences are rather small so I would take the conclusions with some grains of salt.

    45. Re:Wouldn't be a problem -if-... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Hey, he did pretty good considering he didn't have the crib sheet that the Congressmen have:

      Vote yay or nay based on...

      1) which party sponsored the bill

      2) how much I was paid to vote for/against it.

      Who cares about causes and understanding of the topics?

    46. Re:Wouldn't be a problem -if-... by johannesg · · Score: 1

      I have no problem with opinion. I just have a problem with it being represented as 'news', because it isn't.

  5. We need mind-antivirus by Visarga · · Score: 1, Interesting

    This kind of sophisticated attacks reveal that we have reached the next stage in communication, where we must use anti-virus like techniques. The body continuously gets assaulted by viruses, computers too. Now it's our minds that get virused.

    1. Re:We need mind-antivirus by AmiMoJo · · Score: 1

      It's a shame that the Free Speech Warriors will scream "censorship!!1" when anyone tries to deal with this. Some of them are the ones benefiting from it, and some of them are just useful idiots.

      --
      const int one = 65536; (Silvermoon, Texture.cs)
      SJW, n: "Someone I don't like, and by the way I'm a fuckwit" - AC
    2. Re:We need mind-antivirus by omnichad · · Score: 1

      The fix for viral ideas is not censorship. It's trying to cultivate the idea of questioning everything.

    3. Re:We need mind-antivirus by AmiMoJo · · Score: 1

      Spam filtering is not censorship.

      --
      const int one = 65536; (Silvermoon, Texture.cs)
      SJW, n: "Someone I don't like, and by the way I'm a fuckwit" - AC
    4. Re:We need mind-antivirus by Anonymous+Cow+Ward · · Score: 1

      If your proposed tool for dealing with it is censorship, then yeah, I can see why they'd say that.

      --
      Examine even your most deeply held beliefs. Nobody is always right.
  6. Politicians promising what the people want to hear by Roodvlees · · Score: 1, Offtopic

    It's been going on for a very long time.
    Now we just have better technology. Macron did it too.

    --
    Thank you, Bradley Manning, Edward Snowden and so many others, for courageously defending humanity, my freedom and more!
  7. Mysterious by 110010001000 · · Score: 0

    The company is so mysterious. They even have a website that tells you exactly what they do in big bold letters.

    1. Re:Mysterious by OneAhead · · Score: 3, Informative

      By the same logic, I present you a few fine organizations that cannot possibly have anything to hide because they have a website that tells you what they do:
      The FSB
      The mossad (hope this is the right site because I didn't much care to enable javascript)
      The CIA
      The NSA

      On a completely unrelated note, would you by any chance be in the market for a bridge? I can make you a really good price, because you're my friend!

  8. Nonsense. Facebook is your friend. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Believe in it and it will believe in you. Tell it your desires, your lusts, and your deepest darkest secrets, and you will be rewarded. Pay it forward, and pay it forward with Facebook.

    Thank you, and may God Bless

  9. So is it Russia, or this manipulation group ? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I thought it was Russia that was subverting democracy ?

    Now we have this group whats doing it ?

    I wish people would make their minds up...

    1. Re: So is it Russia, or this manipulation group ? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Could of course be both. Did you consider that?

  10. Boo Hoo by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0, Flamebait

    Trump won fair and square. Get over it, leftists. Legally buying information to better reach and influence voters isn't hijacking an election. Trump and the Republicans ran a better and smarter campaign, and this is just another example of them doing so. Americans don't want leftist policies and it's time that you liberals get over it. Clinton's had far more money than Trump's, so they easily could have acquired the same information. And yet they made blunder after blunder, including not visiting Midwest states that they took for granted. You lost. Get over it, leftists.

    - snruter rotsac

    1. Re:Boo Hoo by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      you are a faggot

    2. Re: Boo Hoo by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      As usual, more ad hominem from the left, can't accept the facts. You lost because Americans disagree with your politics, but you can't accept that. I know that you leftists are apoplectic that Americans don't want ridiculously high taxes and the government controlling theor lives, etc, etc. Perhaps you need to change and get in touch with the American people.

      - snruter rotsac

    3. Re: Boo Hoo by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      fuck off you russian sponsored troll

    4. Re: Boo Hoo by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      As usual, more ad hominem from the left, can't accept the facts. You lost because Americans disagree with your politics,

      Hold on, the majority voted Clinton?
      Or is CNN a source of leftist alternate facts:
      http://edition.cnn.com/2016/12/21/politics/donald-trump-hillary-clinton-popular-vote-final-count/

    5. Re: Boo Hoo by kenh · · Score: 0

      Perhaps you need to change and get in touch with the American people.

      Maybe if Hillary ran a third "Listening Tour" she could finally get a sense of the American people and their wants and needs?

      Her greatest message this past campaign was "I'm Not Trump", while his was "I'm not Hillary", with the easily predictable outcome after some 20+ years of Clinton Scandals, Hillary lost to an unproven leader, because she has proven herself to be a poor leader. Remember when her first stated campaign accomplishment was having "travelled over 1 million miles as Secretary of State"? Remember how quickly Carly Fiorina destroyed it by pointing out that that is an "activity, not an accomplishment"?

      She was a lousy candidate with an incredible number of issues and the world learned through email leaks that she was hand-picked by democrat leadership before the primaries even started.

      --
      Ken
    6. Re:Boo Hoo by omnichad · · Score: 1

      Both sides spread lies left and right through media outlets of their own design. This is not a "better campaign" by any metric. It's pandering without any merit.

    7. Re: Boo Hoo by HornWumpus · · Score: 0

      CNN is clearly 'fake news' the last campaign made that clear to _all_. But keep pretending nothing has changed.

      The only majority that matters is the majority of the electoral college.

      --
      John McAfee 'It was like that time I hired that Bangkok prostitute; to do my taxes, while I fucked my accountant'
  11. What kind of bullshit article is this? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Interesting

    When Obama won in 2008 slashdot ran slobbering articles about how the tech industry had used data mining techniques to properly target ads towards the appropriate voters and who the Dems needed to target to maximize votes. In 2012 this was repeated along with Facebook altering walls to make sure only the "proper" messages were showing up on walls.
    Now the "other" side is doing it and its "evil" and "manipulative" and "fake news"

    No that's bullshit. You can't praise the use of story planting and voter manipulation when your guy does it then turn around and demand all the rules be changes because for all that whiz bang technology you couldn't get voters to choose your sucky candidate. Maybe that's the real story here... that all this voter manipulation and Orwellian tech doesn't really work and individuals still pick the best candidate presented?

    Naaah... they're sheep when they don't vote the way you want and enlightened peoples when you use the same techniques.

    1. Re:What kind of bullshit article is this? by Jzanu · · Score: 2, Interesting

      The difference is the kinds of ads that were used. In Trump's case, the vast majority reflected his campaign of populist dogma with no substance and flag waving blame of the whipping-boy of the hour (Arabs, Gays, Disabled Americans, etc.); here the point is pointing out abuse of data for psychological warfare that violates the rights of all people.

    2. Re:What kind of bullshit article is this? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Oh bullshit.

      Obamas ads were just as vapid and demagoguery as were Hillary's as is THIS ARTICLE.

      Or have you not seen the Trumps a nazi discussions and articles?

      No nooo... Your guy ran a campaign of information and the other guy ran a campaign of fear.

    3. Re:What kind of bullshit article is this? by Jzanu · · Score: 3, Interesting

      I'm German and a member of CDU/CSU, my "guy" is a woman named Merkel. The issue with abuse of data is the new front in civil life. The military has some awareness but that is mostly limited to destroying communications networks of the enemy and protecting those used by allies. Civil culture must adapt to the reality of increasing mesh between the internet and real-world regarding data collection, analysis, and application. That is the challenge of the 21st century.

    4. Re:What kind of bullshit article is this? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Interesting

      At the expense of me probably being flogged alive by the left, would this be similar psychological manipulation that says an ethnic minority cannot be racist? I get a lot of that on Facebook these days.. I'm sexist because I'm male. I'm racist because I'm white. If those direct accusations irritate me, it's because of "male fragility" or "white fragility" (god forbid you tell a woman she's sexist, or an ethnic minority that they're racist). These are becoming so pervasive these days, that it's quite scary. And before you level charges of 'racist' at, all the psych tests that have been used to show "implicit bias" show me having no bias towards any ethnic persuasion. Nor do I exhibit it in day to day life. So somehow, despite every science based/research based test telling me "You are not racist, you have no bias", I'm still somehow a racist.. If it upsets me to be accused of that, it's somehow my fault for being "a fragile white", and I need to be even more tolerant of ethnic minorities (which, as has already been shown by psych tests, I'm as tolerant to as any other skin colour).
      That, to me also falls under 'flag waving blame of the whipping-person of the day".
      I've hated it while the left used psych coercion to achieve their ends, and I hate it now the right have picked up on it (but the right are simply using better tech at the moment).

    5. Re:What kind of bullshit article is this? by kenh · · Score: 1

      Exactly - here are some of the links:

      MIT's Technology Review
      New York Times
      InfoWorld

      --
      Ken
    6. Re:What kind of bullshit article is this? by Sique · · Score: 2
      The problem is always that actions, which are tolerable if you are a minority, become unbearable if you are the majority. It's like monopoly tactics. If you are the dominating force, there is not enough regulative to migitate the effects of your actions. A single person saying: I don't like XYZ is ok. This is a personal opinion. The majority saying: I don't like XYZ is mobbing, because it heavily weights against anything XYZ can do.

      Yes, a minority can be totally racist. But that's not the problem, as long as they are a small minority. Bundling other products to your most successful product to get into new markets is not a problem if you are just one company of many. But if you control the barrier of entry of everyone else, it becomes a problem. And being racist becomes a problem if you are part of the dominant group which controls the entries for everyone else.

      --
      .sig: Sique *sigh*
    7. Re:What kind of bullshit article is this? by chispito · · Score: 1

      The difference is the kinds of ads that were used. In Trump's case, the vast majority reflected his campaign of populist dogma with no substance and flag waving blame of the whipping-boy of the hour (Arabs, Gays, Disabled Americans, etc.); here the point is pointing out abuse of data for psychological warfare that violates the rights of all people.

      Or maybe a majority of targeted voters knew it was all bollocks but preferred it to the alternative.

      --
      The Daddy casts sleep on the Baby. The Baby resists!
    8. Re:What kind of bullshit article is this? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      >The problem is always that actions, which are tolerable if you are a minority, become unbearable if you are the majority.

      >Yes, a minority can be totally racist. But that's not the problem, as long as they are a small minority.

      So racism, violent protests and rioting are tolerable as a minority but unbearable if you're a majority?!

      Do you even THINK about what it is you're saying in a rational way or just spew off the talking points because they come from "your side"?!

    9. Re:What kind of bullshit article is this? by Sique · · Score: 1

      I didn't include violent protests and rioting in my argument. Expanding it and then arguing against points I didn't make is which logical fallacy again?

      --
      .sig: Sique *sigh*
    10. Re:What kind of bullshit article is this? by Raenex · · Score: 1

      I'm German and a member of CDU/CSU, my "guy" is a woman named Merkel.

      So you're still voting for Merkel after over 1,000 of your women were violated in the Cologne New Year's Eve sexual assaults, which were the result of a disastrous immigration policy?

    11. Re:What kind of bullshit article is this? by Jzanu · · Score: 1

      The few real rapes were normal criminality for a festival in a nation the size of Germany. There were some cases organized by a criminal syndicate, but few perpetrators were actually refugees. The large part of the attention gained was due to the predisposed hatred of Syrian and Iraqi refugees of which Germany receives actually a low percentage. Particular elements of law were changed due to longer standing issues related to historic low reporting - which in itself makes your claim of 1000 reported from a single day ridiculous. The immigration policy of welcoming has succeeded in growing the German economy. Unlike some of the other party I support the ascension of Turkey and the inclusion of Muslims in the modern EU as continuation of the melding that benefits everyone. The Russian advocated fantasy of culture war is one that only incites dehumanization of the hated elements is just a stupid approach designed to prop up their faltering economy.

    12. Re:What kind of bullshit article is this? by randallman · · Score: 2

      You're kidding yourself to think the two elections were anyware similar. Politifact - Trump only 31% true (to some degree) - 16% pants on fire. Obama - 75% true (to some degree) - 2% pants on fire. Trump lies or is just ignorant 69% of the time.

      Unprecedented hoards of absolutely fake news and headlines as documented in the article we're discussing. What fake news is there from the Obama election other than he's a secret Muslim not born in the U.S.? The pizza parlor shooting (from ACTUAL fake news) is just one of countless ridiculous "accusations" (I use quotes because the accusers always suggest - "I don't know ... maybe") I've heard on right wing talk radio and the likes.

      Trump - POW's are bad soldiers. Mexico is "sending" their "killers and rapists". Anyone who criticizes him is "fake news".

      Please. There's no comparison.

    13. Re:What kind of bullshit article is this? by Raenex · · Score: 1

      The few real rapes were normal criminality for a festival in a nation the size of Germany.

      Really? So it's ok that over a 1,000 women were sexually assaulted, as long as they weren't "real rapes"? And do you have evidence for that "normal criminality" claim? Because here in the United States, I've never heard of such a thing as being "normal" during New Year's Eve celebrations, let alone packs of thousands of men sexually assaulting women in public.

      but few perpetrators were actually refugees

      Oh, I'm sure they were just your average German men then, right? Or perhaps not:

      "Police reported that the perpetrators were men of "Arab or North African appearance" and said that Germany had never experienced such mass sexual assaults before. [..] Chief Prosecutor Ulrich Bremer stated that "the overwhelming majority" of suspects were asylum seekers and illegal immigrants who had recently arrived in Germany."

      The large part of the attention gained was due to the predisposed hatred of Syrian and Iraqi refugees of which Germany receives actually a low percentage.

      Yeah, I said disastrous immigration policy, and did not specify Syria or Iraq. The fact that so many immigrants flooded in from other countries under Merkel's policy while supposedly helping war refugees is not a point in your favor.

      The immigration policy of welcoming has succeeded in growing the German economy.

      *snort* I guess if you consider welfare for poorly educated immigrants "growing the economy", then yes.

      I support the ascension of Turkey and the inclusion of Muslims in the modern EU as continuation of the melding that benefits everyone.

      Of course, more Trucks of Peace and Aloha Snackbars for Europe. Enjoy your cultural enrichment.

    14. Re:What kind of bullshit article is this? by chihowa · · Score: 1

      Yes, a minority can be totally racist. But that's not the problem, as long as they are a small minority.

      It is a problem if anybody is racist and minorities expressing racist sentiments only serve to increase tensions and racial hatred. Tolerating it is foolish, but encouraging it is downright malicious.

      Martin Luther King would be spinning in his grave if he could see the increasing racial divide and disharmony that's being celebrated by the "champions" of the poor minorities.

      --
      If you want a vision of the future, imagine a youtube comments section scrolling - forever.
    15. Re:What kind of bullshit article is this? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You read everything wrong, and just ignored the points your bosses won't let you reply to - you fucking Russian state-sponsored troll!

  12. Meh, just another hit piece by davide+marney · · Score: 0

    FTY:

    ...what is happening in America and what is happening in Britain are entwined. Brexit and Trump are entwined. The Trump administration’s links to Russia and Britain are entwined. And Cambridge Analytica is one point of focus through which we can see all these relationships in play; it also reveals the elephant in the room as we hurtle into a general election: Britain tying its future to an America that is being remade - in a radical and alarming way - by Trump.

    I stopped reading right there. When you start your research with your conclusion already in hand, you're no longer researching, you're just finding additional support for your thesis.

    And I no longer bother with Trump Is Teh Evil articles anymore. People have had their say, 10 times over. Enough.

    --
    "We receive as friendly that which agrees with, we resist with dislike that which opposes us" - Faraday
    1. Re:Meh, just another hit piece by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You do know how writing a newspaper report works right? Literally since the dawn of print media, people have been writing the salient points in the first paragraph and then expanding upon them subsequently. How do you not know that?

    2. Re:Meh, just another hit piece by davide+marney · · Score: 1

      What I am objecting to is the "Evil Matrix" assumption that underlies that first, summary paragraph. Re-read that paragraph again. The author's assumption shows up in literally every sentence.

      These types of articles are a waste of time. There is nothing new to be learned.

      --
      "We receive as friendly that which agrees with, we resist with dislike that which opposes us" - Faraday
    3. Re:Meh, just another hit piece by kenh · · Score: 1

      The Left seems to have forgotten how Obama won the 2008 campaign - look at MIT's Technology Review, the New York Times, and InfoWorld.

      --
      Ken
    4. Re:Meh, just another hit piece by Tranzistors · · Score: 1

      When you start your research with your conclusion already in hand, you're no longer researching, you're just finding additional support for your thesis.

      I guess you stop reading scientific articles at the abstract, since those usually have conclusions in them.

    5. Re:Meh, just another hit piece by dbIII · · Score: 1

      The irony is that even if this is true it's just a new way of doing what Rupert Murdoch has been doing for years in a lot of different places (including the US in the last election), and other media magnates did it before him.
      One of the reasons he pulled out of Chinese media is because he couldn't use it to influence government.

    6. Re:Meh, just another hit piece by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      This article is the left's version of the right-wing conspiracy theory. Instead of the "shadowy cabal of Zionist overlords" we have "dark talk about... a global plutocracy." This is like reading a version of 4chan where the word "Jew" has just been regexed into "Hedge Fund Billionaire" and the political party flipped. People always want a scapegoat to blame for their side's failings. The globalists lost with Brexit and Trump, so now they want to blame a conspiracy instead of admitting that their message failed to resonate with enough voters to win.

      Out of touch with the people? Distance yourself even further from reality by inventing vast conspiracies of near-magic mind-control powers through the dark art of data analysis.

    7. Re:Meh, just another hit piece by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Odd, all the papers I've written, the abstract talks about what I'm investigating. Then throughout the paper I talk about previous research, then go into methods I use, then the data I collected, then results I got, then lastly I'll give conclusions. And honestly, the conclusions are fairly vague and short and usually don't involve an interpretation of results. The results are there for people to make their own interpretations. I mean, hell, 90% of the time I do have thoughts it's just did I think it worked or not, and what do I think could be done to improve or what to look at next.

    8. Re:Meh, just another hit piece by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      WOW. Just wow. You're seriously trying to tie a scientific article to an opinion piece/political hit piece?

      Besides which the article ASSUMES it's conclusion re: "Trump is in Russia's pocket"...NONE of the allegations have been proven, not 1. And there is not 1 single 'spit' of evidence to support this conclusion.

      If you started a supposedly scientific article to Nature with 'The creation of the universe's link to God & the Devil are intertwined', you wouldn't get that past the first reviewer!

  13. sick if the nonsense by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0, Insightful

    anybody else sick to the back teeth of listening to these tinfoil hat conspiracy theories from people with far left views?
     

    1. Re:sick if the nonsense by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Yes and also sick of the paranoid conspiracy theories from the far right. Alex Jones is a gelding.

    2. Re:sick if the nonsense by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      classic ad hominem... Although I admit it does read like a conspiracy theory, only disappointingly these aren't fictitious companies, the actions of whom form a conspiracy but not a theory.

    3. Re:sick if the nonsense by coastwalker · · Score: 2

      anybody else sick to the back teeth of listening to anonymous cowards claiming that there are these tinfoil hat conspiracy theories from people with far left views?

      --
      Facts are history now plebs have politics for religion on social media.
    4. Re:sick if the nonsense by king+neckbeard · · Score: 2

      Honey, this isn't far-left. This is the center-right members of the relatively left-wing party upset that Third Way politics is failing.

      --
      This is my signature. There are many like it, but this one is mine.
    5. Re:sick if the nonsense by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The republican party has no interest in the common man, they represent the interest of maybe 1%, and should not have access to any democratic process, just like people in prisons are prohibited from voting, so should these.

  14. Underwood by sad_ · · Score: 1

    did it first!

    --
    On a long enough timeline, the survival rate for everyone drops to zero.
    1. Re:Underwood by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      An echo did it first?

  15. Only somehow related to this article by CustomSolvers2 · · Score: 1

    I am reasonably sure that some people with lots of money are actively working on trying to somehow condition the feelings and fears of the masses via social media (e.g., over-promotion of isolated or even completely false events of violence or chaos). Just as an example, I have seen various "curious" global trends which, after a quick research, seemed to be almost exclusively triggered by accounts associated with certain online-positioning companies (note that validated/good-track-record accounts can get global trends easier) which, after a little further digging, seemed to also be related to certain bigger companies/millionaires.

    Note that I am not too much into the paranoid conspiracy world and have an eminently practical attitude ("We have no online privacy? OK, I guess that I will have to accept this reality. I certainly don't agree with it and expect social pressure to gradually reduce abuses like this."). I am plainly sharing my objective impressions about some things which I have been seeing lately.

    --
    Custom Solvers 2.0 = Alvaro Carballo Garcia = varocarbas.
    1. Re:Only somehow related to this article by CustomSolvers2 · · Score: 1

      In case there is even the slightest doubt, I meant Twitter global trends.

      --
      Custom Solvers 2.0 = Alvaro Carballo Garcia = varocarbas.
  16. yay. by DMJC · · Score: 5, Insightful

    And yet Stallman is the crazy one? The man is a fucking prophet. Almost everything about computers he's predicted has come true including the eventual turning of computing technology and user data against democracy.

    1. Re:yay. by ArhcAngel · · Score: 2

      The two are not mutually exclusive. In fact most genius' suffer from borderline psychosis and many eventually succumb to it.

      --
      "A person is smart. People are dumb, panicky dangerous animals and you know it." - K
    2. Re:yay. by dbIII · · Score: 1

      eventual turning of computing technology and user data against democracy

      That's not a prediction but an observation, at the risk of going a Godwin over a division of IBM long ago.
      It's an ever present threat to watch over for as long as the technology existed so it's good for him to remind us of it.

    3. Re:yay. by phantomfive · · Score: 1

      most genius' suffer from borderline psychosis and many eventually succumb to it.

      There's definitely a [citation needed] on that statement.

      --
      "First they came for the slanderers and i said nothing."
    4. Re:yay. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      And yet Stallman is the crazy one? The man is a fucking prophet. Almost everything about computers he's predicted has come true including the eventual turning of computing technology and user data against democracy.

      Stallman isn't crazy, but he is a little bit gross. Eating toenails in a public forum is yucky.

  17. Did you say you don't vote? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Expect -1 very soon. This is taboo the only thing worse is saying voting is useless. I will send round re-educators. (or the police if it is illegal to not vote in your area). You will soon learn to vote for tweedledee.

    1. Re:Did you say you don't vote? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Joking aside, who the fuck has scores or moderation on? I'd say the only thing worse than having fox news or this pr firm filter the content you see is having random morons across the internet doing it. actually has moderation on or even bothers looking at scores are a part of that retard group I'm talking about. they don't think so of course. in reality, just like voting for candidates none of whom you would want to vote for, moderation systems on sites like this are just a way to give users the illusion they have power to do something about something they disagree with.

    2. Re:Did you say you don't vote? by jbmartin6 · · Score: 1

      There are plenty of other reasons to mod parent down, it has nothing to do with not voting.

      --
      This posting is provided 'AS IS' without warranty of any kind, implied or otherwise.
    3. Re:Did you say you don't vote? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      That's funny. You think "modding" does anything besides you clicking your mouse. Here's some real life for you, you internet ugly society reject: Someone posted something you disagree with. It's written, it's online, there is zero you can do about it. The only people who don't see it are the morons like yourself who don't read at -1 and let your content be censored by other morons like yourself.

  18. It's the argument for an aristocracy by swb · · Score: 2

    It's kind of the argument for a republic if not an aristocracy.

    The masses are too ignorant, gullible and guided by base motivations to make serious decisions. In a Democratic Republic you at least have the will of the people as voiced in elections for Representatives, but that as a rule intelligent, serious people will actually be making the decisions.

    It's what's kind of interesting at times in the British monarchy -- the crown doesn't run government but by virtue of its status, gives advice and guidance to the government and acts as a conscience. I think at this point -- historically, politically and perhaps geriatrically -- this idea has been exhausted.

    Historically, though, you find that most institutions diluted the common man's voice. Rome certainly did with Senatorial asset requirements and differing electoral classes.

    I don't think poor people are too poor to understand facts, but I think at times they are too uneducated *and* too provincial in their outlook. And the level of understanding required to make educated decisions on many topics has gotten pretty deep. I like to think of myself as well-read and well-educated, but when I think of what's involved in truly understanding economics, diplomacy, health, I think I know my limits but do other people, or are they merely indulging in the fallacy that they understand when they don't?

    1. Re:It's the argument for an aristocracy by rmdingler · · Score: 1
      It's not always about education levels or income.

      Citizens from poverty level to upper middle class are typically burdened with conventional jobs or other entrepreneurial adventures, child-rearing, sleeping, hobbies, eating... all sorts of humdrum daily activities that fill up the hours of one's busy little life.

      Unless politics or government is your gig, there's just not enough time nor inclination for the average person to collect the data themselves, so most people align with a socially acceptable news source.

      I've lived in the South where Fox News is on everywhere you go, and in the Northeast where it never is. Never discount the power of fitting in for most of us.

      --
      Happiness in intelligent people is the rarest thing I know.

      Ernest Hemingway

  19. It's good to keep it in the news by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    But this is all info that's been reported for over 6 months. Robert Mercer of Renaissance Technologies is working with other billionaires and Islamic banking and 'thought leaders' to use big data to consolidate global power, while the consolidating is good.

    It's not a plan that will scale upward to world domination, but the end result is wealth manipulating democracies and destroying people's trust in media and freedom of press.

    All in all their algorithms aren't that good and amount to little more than targeted slander ads for the most part. The real factor here is changing media focus. As people migrate from TV news to internet news, they are highly vulnerable to fake news because they are moving from at least semi trusted sources to mostly unknown sources from Facebook and all kinds of news startup designed to take advantage of this trend and feed back into Facebook. Some of those are funded by the mercers, but most are now. Google, Bing, Facebook, Reddit and others all make money from the clicks, so they are along for the ride at the end of the day.

    The really bad part is coming, which is when they get AI chat bots to the point that most people cannot tell the difference. Instead of target ads you will have convincing 'fake people' who use the same Facebook data to plant doubt and conspiracy theories in people heads under the guise of having similar interests as them and being actual people, not just coded ads. Instead of armies of thousands of trolls, they can have millions of AI chat bots to befriend and corrupt people.

    As automation kills more jobs you have more easily influenced people sitting at home on Facebook being bombarded with this stuff and automation will keep killing jobs for the foreseeable future.

    At the end of the day the real problem is that society is not ready to transition away from their simple work week based lives, but science and technology are ready to start that transition. We can have better production with less people and for less money. Not healthcare needed for robots!

    People need jobs to keep them sane and well behaved, but we are running out of jobs as more and more of our basic needs and the jobs associated with them get automated.

    The fast and simple solution is to create more jobs for the people who are getting left behind so they don't destroy society in their childish, ignorant rage. The transition from the Industrial Age to the Automation Age must be managed by government, corporations and society itself or it will be a very bumpy ride that is, as usual, exceptionally bad for those working paycheck to paycheck.

    They will just essentially wake up one day and be mostly unemployable and with an attitude that doesn't embrace continued education, they will stay that way.

    In the bigger picture of things wealth itself will decline in value as labor costs drop and with it the cost of basically everything other than land. If you don't have to pay for labor the amount of resources and farmable land on the planet increases significantly. The cost to build housing falls, the cost to build goods falls and people who have a lot of equity will mostly loose that equity if they don't convert it.

    With the wealthy no longer able to control the job markets, their grip on the voters also rapidly drops off and I believe we are seeing some of that now, but it will get exponentially worse as big automation plans take hold and AI progresses to start displacing office and other white collar jobs. Amazon and other internet sales are already killing retail jobs.

    I would reduce the work week, raises wages, create jobs, create more professional certifications and programs to get people into them as well as make it easy for citizens to get guidance on available programs, including education and job placement. People need one number they can call for all their state and federal government assistance/guidance. They should be assigned a social worker who can actively guide them through all the layers of BS that state and federal governments hav

    1. Re:It's good to keep it in the news by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Well hello there Mr. Marx. I didn't realize you were back from the dead.

  20. Re:Politicians promising what the people want to h by dave420 · · Score: 1

    That's not what this story is about at all...

  21. No by Dog-Cow · · Score: 1

    Democracy doesn't depend on informed voters. Democracy is nothing more than giving the vote to citizens who are not part of the government. The outcomes will be better, for certain definitions of better, but there's no way to hijack democracy.

  22. George Soros by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I am reasonably sure that some people with lots of money are actively working on trying to somehow condition the feelings and fears of the masses

    George Soros has been doing exactly that for years.

    Moveon.org, Occupy Wall Street, Black Lives Matter, Women's Day March, People's Climate March, the list goes on and on. His money is behind all of them.

    1. Re:George Soros by CustomSolvers2 · · Score: 1

      My post wasn't meant to be focused on politics, much less in the US with the current president there, how he uses social media and my not-too-good actual knowledge about the whole situation there. In any case, note that I am a leftist who doesn't like Trump at all; certainly no fan of fanaticism-prone movements of any type and also not interested in starting a discussion about politics (look at some of my old posts to know about some of my ideas on this front and my intention of not talking about them anymore here).

      I meant more abstract and long-term expectations, apparently not addressed to a specific group of people (US voters) and not meant to accomplish a specific short-term goal (US election), but for less clear reasons. Testing the actual social-media-manipulation effect? Contributing towards the appearance of fears towards certain people/countries? Too bored people getting some distraction? No idea. Just weird, curious and worth sharing.

      --
      Custom Solvers 2.0 = Alvaro Carballo Garcia = varocarbas.
  23. Curious by argStyopa · · Score: 1

    Curious that they are portrayed by the poster as some insidious master data manipulator...when as recently as 2016 advertising industry magazines mocked them for being "all hat, no cattle".
    Several customers were quoted as complaining that their $16k monthly fee produced nothing of value except constant sales pitches.

    http://adage.com/article/campa...

    --
    -Styopa
  24. Fake news? by sciengin · · Score: 1

    And there I thought it was the conservatives that had the occasional fake-news problem

    It seems impossibly hard to believe for some that Trump won because people were honesty, genuinely fed up with the alternative. Instead its one nutty conspiracy theory after the other about why he really won.

    1. Re:Fake news? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It seems impossibly hard to believe for some that Trump won because people were honesty, genuinely fed up with the alternative.

      And WHY were people fed up with the alternative?

      They were "fed up" because they were spoon fed information that painted a picture that wasn't very accurate. They are "fed up" over distraction and made up issues. In the meantime we are going to have some serious problems in the next few years. No one is addressing them because the American people are stupid and easily manipulated and distracted over stupid shit.

      I'm at ground zero of the District 6 run in Georgia and it's the same shit all over again.

      The people are stupid. They are easily manipulated because they just want to hear what they want to hear. We treat politics like professional sports - it's our team vs their team.

      We do not deserve our Republic. Never the less arguing is pointless.

    2. Re:Fake news? by dbIII · · Score: 1

      It seems impossibly hard to believe for some that Trump won because people were honesty, genuinely fed up with the alternative

      I wonder if it will take the full four years to wake up and see how stupid that is in hindsight - thinking the alternative is worse than Trump I mean not the observation that people were doing it. He's already playing chicken with nukes (which not even Hillary or any of the Republicans at the primaries would do) so what's going to happen next?
      You got scammed by a slick salesman. Enjoy the snake oil.

    3. Re:Fake news? by king+neckbeard · · Score: 1

      They're fed up because the Dems are only offering GOP-lite candidates instead of someone that will actually protect their interests. Now, are the Republicans taking advantage of that? Yes, but the Dems could easily undermine that by actually being useful.

      --
      This is my signature. There are many like it, but this one is mine.
    4. Re:Fake news? by lucasnate1 · · Score: 1

      There's also another option, that this is real news but that the democrats won for the same reason in the past. The masses are dumb and manipulated, democracy is a lie.

  25. Sounds Familiar... by kenh · · Score: 2, Insightful

    I'm pretty sure Obama For America employed many, if not all the same tactics in 2008 election...

    Why yes, look at MIT's Technology Review, the New York Times, and InfoWorld - again, another glaring example of a profound double-standard. When Team Obama did it, it was "ground-breaking", when Republicans employ similar tools it a nefarious plot to control the world!

    --
    Ken
    1. Re:Sounds Familiar... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      So no difference ? All politicians lie ? Look at the lying percentage. A "regular" politico lies about 20 %. Trump has invented ALTERNATIVE FACTS.

    2. Re:Sounds Familiar... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      oh shut the fuck up. fucking whiners like you have ruined this site.

    3. Re:Sounds Familiar... by Freischutz · · Score: 3, Insightful

      I'm pretty sure Obama For America employed many, if not all the same tactics in 2008 election...

      Why yes, look at MIT's Technology Review, the New York Times, and InfoWorld - again, another glaring example of a profound double-standard. When Team Obama did it, it was "ground-breaking", when Republicans employ similar tools it a nefarious plot to control the world!

      Normally I'd agree with you but since you are trying to compare putting Obama in the White House to putting Donald Trump in the White House I'm going to have to disagree here. Obama, whatever you may think of him, at least had a multi digit IQ that allowed him to answer questions from reporters, skin that was too thick for his soul to be injured by Saturday Night Live skits and had a clear idea of which countries he had bombed. Trump on the other hand walks out of press conferences when he gets questions he does not like, launches twitter storms where he lambasts anybody who lampoons him and told a reporter he'd launched a missile strike on Iraq until the reporter corrected him and pointed out the strike was on Syria.... and those are just three sample of the highlights of what those bastards at SCL Group and their friends have saddled us with

    4. Re:Sounds Familiar... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Do you really not see the difference? Let me point it out....

      Obama's system identified likely Republican voters and IGNORED them (according to the New York Times article you linked to). Why? because Obama was attempting to motivate his supporters and sway those on the fence over to his position.

      The Republican system identified likely Democratic votes and attempted to make them so sick of the process that THEY WOULDN'T VOTE.

      One side tries to get out the vote... The other tries to suppress the vote. I can tell which is evil. Can you?

    5. Re:Sounds Familiar... by king+neckbeard · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Why are you blaming SCL when it's was the Clinton campaign's strategy for a "Pied Piper" nutjob to be the GOP nominee (because she's too bad of a candidate to run against an adult), Bill encouraged him to run, and the media gave that asshole $2 billion in free advertising.

      The reason that we have this problem is that our electoral system lacks an option to shoot both candidates into the sun and have a mulligan. That could have gotten 65% of the vote, easy.

      --
      This is my signature. There are many like it, but this one is mine.
    6. Re:Sounds Familiar... by ooloorie · · Score: 1

      Obama, whatever you may think of him, at least had a multi digit IQ that allowed him to answer questions from reporters, skin that was too thick for his soul to be injured by Saturday Night Live skits and had a clear idea of which countries he had bombed.

      Well, yes, he ran on being an intellectual, so he has to behave like one.

      Trump on the other hand walks out of press conferences when he gets questions he does not like, launches twitter storms where he lambasts anybody who lampoons him and told a reporter he'd launched a missile strike on Iraq until the reporter corrected him and pointed out the strike was on Syria.... and those are just three sample of the highlights of what those bastards at SCL Group and their friends have saddled us with

      And Trump ran on being an alternative to the Washington establishment, so that's how he's behaving.

      You're a fool if you think that anybody can just bumble into the presidency. Trump knows what he is doing as much, if not more so, than Obama. Trump is far from the first president to play this game.

      The question is what these people use their intellect for.

    7. Re:Sounds Familiar... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      And Trump ran on being an alternative to the Washington establishment, so that's how he's behaving.

      No, he isn't. He's behaving as a Washington insider.

      You're a fool if you think that anybody can just bumble into the presidency.

      Yes, it does help to start with hundreds of millions in advance.

      Trump knows what he is doing as much, if not more so, than Obama. Trump is far from the first president to play this game.

      Oh, so you want us to believe he's playing a fool, a bumbling, narcissistic incompetent, fool

      The question is what these people use their intellect for.

      Apparently you use yours to excuse your belief that a bumbling, narcissistic, incompetent fool, is a good thing to have in the Oval Office.

    8. Re:Sounds Familiar... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Citizens who didn't vote now upset about results they would have voted against! News at 11.

      Screw you - VOTE. If your category of voter can be persuaded to not care enough about a 4-year repercussion national-level election and take 30 minutes out of their day (anytime during the preceding week!), then your opinion doesn't get counted. Period.

      Data manipulation was used by both sides. "Our side only said nice things about the opponent" or "Our side tried to get everyone to vote - even those that disagree with us" are excuses, not policy. Elections are ugly, get over it. You want to make discouraging advertising illegal? Go for it. Both people played by the rules of the system, and one of them won. Quit the whining.

    9. Re:Sounds Familiar... by Raenex · · Score: 1

      Normally I'd agree with you but since you are trying to compare putting Obama in the White House to putting Donald Trump in the White House I'm going to have to disagree here.

      So when you don't like the outcome you think being a hypocrite is ok.

      Obama, whatever you may think of him, at least had a multi digit IQ that allowed him to answer questions from reporters

      Trump answers them too.

      skin that was too thick for his soul to be injured by Saturday Night Live skits

      I'm not sure that his "soul" is being "injured". Also, Obama had his own personal feud with Fox News.

      and had a clear idea of which countries he had bombed

      But apparently didn't know how many states were in the country he was the President of.

      Let's get real here. As much as I think Trump is prone to buffoonery, he managed to become a billionaire. And after years of political correctness and a President who refused to use the phrase Islamic terrorism, a guy like Trump was needed to call a spade a spade and shake things up.

    10. Re:Sounds Familiar... by Raenex · · Score: 1

      One side tries to get out the vote... The other tries to suppress the vote. I can tell which is evil. Can you?

      Oh, so there there was no negative advertising against Romney or McCain? They were telling people what they wanted to hear to get the results they wanted. It's all politics.

    11. Re:Sounds Familiar... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Please point me to a question that Obama answered that had an actual substantive answer to it...e.g. not something simply said to pander to his audience. What 'Saturday Night Live' skits or ANY comedic skits are you referring to that showed Obama as an outright liar and/or idiot? Where were the skits that could have & should have made him look TOTALLY impotent for instance ("This is the red-line you shall not cross"...oops, I mean this one...ok it's not really red it's more pinkish) or actually depict him as a 'puppet of Russian'...you know that stupid plastic 'Reset' button..O and they fucking couldn't even SPELL it correctly! If that was Bush or Trump the media, SNL & every comic on the face of the fucking planet would have been making hay over how 'stupid' these guys are...but not Obama, no he's got a 'multi-digit IQ' so it's just a random mistake right?

      Come on, feel free to point me to any 'no holds barred' comedic skits, ones with dick jokes about how Obama is just a 'cock holster' for Putin...anything resembling 'biting satire' about how impotent & worthless the Obama administration's positions and policies are/were...O right, you won't find any because the media & the left wing asshats now running SNL etc. aren't 'equal opportunity offenders', they are 'cock holsters' for the Democrats...anything they say or do can't possibly be wrong/bad...at one time at least SNL didn't care what stripe of politician you were as ALL politicians were suspect (as they should be)...sadly those days are long gone.

  26. Let me guess: by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Big data was great when it was getting Obama into office, and it was great when Eric Schmidt et al were trying to get Hillary into office, but it's bad ("hijack democracy?") when their opponents use it?

  27. Facebook data... by __aaclcg7560 · · Score: 1

    I'm reading "Chaos Monkeys: Obscene Fortune and Random Failure in Silicon Valley" by Antonio Garcia Martinez, about Facebook advertising. I'm at the part where Facebook internal data connects with external data to attach personal information on to every piece of data that Facebook had collected from the web. Scary stuff.

    1. Re:Facebook data... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
    2. Re:Facebook data... by __aaclcg7560 · · Score: 1

      Have you read Weapons of Math Destruction: How Big Data Increases Inequality and Threatens Democracy?

      No, I haven't. Thanks for the heads up!

  28. And yet... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    And yet it was somehow not creepy when Obama hired teams of social psychologists in order to find the most effective ways to sway public opinion, right? It wasn't a bad thing when HIS people went after "suggestible voters," right?

    Oh wait, that's right, I forgot. This stuff is only creepy if it is done by the "other" guys.

    1. Re:And yet... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
  29. Modern day magician - a dream job. by dschiptsov · · Score: 1

    Nothing is new under the moon. Some clever guys could persuade some rich guys that they could change the future by shitposting of primitive memes in the internets, and for that the rich guys have to pay a big money. The key idea here, as it was a milenia ago, is that there is no way to ascertain that the crap worked. If the prophesy seems to fulfill, it is, obviously, due to the skills and abilities of the magician to influence the goods (use a big data). If it fails miserably, it means, if course, that there was not enough sacrifice (amount of a big data) has been given, and the failure is chiefly due to lack of funds to perform a big-enough sacrifice. Thousand of years passed, nothing is changed. There is absolutely no way to prove that *any* of these activities, leave alone the big-data analytics crap have a substantial impact on election results. 4chan, for example, could be a *much* bigger factor to influence the uneducated and naive that all that facebook analysis crap combined. One catchy meme ("Shillary will start WW3!!1") with an appropriate picture of a nuclear blast popularized on /b/ would accomplish more than any purchased dataset... But, obviously, you need to know some psychology to understand that. So, instead, you are telling the customers with usual powerpoint crap that it is your pseudo-scientific research activities and data crunching is what swayed the election, not the 4chan, reddit and similar boards powered by the law of big numbers. This, by the way, is the remarkable example of how shit works in the high places. If you thing finance or investment are different - think again. If you are bold enough you will attribute success to yourself and failures to not enough funding, like a good old brahman or oracle of old days. The only difference - instead of masks and amulets one dances with computers and datasets.

  30. I'm just here for the dank memes by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I'm not sure how photos from my vacations and dank memes can sway elections, but whatever.

  31. What, Not Russian Hackerz Anymore? by pipingguy · · Score: 1

    Yet another "explanation" for people rejecting big-government and so-called progressivism. Because it couldn't possibly be that people are fed up, could it.

    1. Re:What, Not Russian Hackerz Anymore? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The problem here is that well, big government wasn't the problem. Big corporations, as in corporate interests trumping national interest, was the issue. And yet what people in the US voted for was to increase direct control by corporate interests in the US while at the same time reducing government power. If turkeys could vote for Christmas (or Thanksgiving, I guess) then that is precisely what it would look like.

    2. Re:What, Not Russian Hackerz Anymore? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I'd like to add that in this respect it's not exactly like they had much of a choice. To forestall the comments that Trump stands for national interest, the turkeys will soon be finding out that the interests of the consumer and the producer are diametrically opposed, often with cranberries.

    3. Re:What, Not Russian Hackerz Anymore? by king+neckbeard · · Score: 1

      They didn't reduce government power. They increased the power of the corporate-government circlejerk. What they reduced was social welfare programs and industrial regulations.

      --
      This is my signature. There are many like it, but this one is mine.
  32. New Headline by lbmouse · · Score: 1

    Free Market Trumps Democracy

    1. Re:New Headline by dehachel12 · · Score: 1

      "Free" Market.

  33. You mean someone besides Zuckerberg? by mpercy · · Score: 1

    I thought the whole point of Facebook was to give him access to that data.

  34. Google and Clinton by RoccamOccam · · Score: 1

    So, no mention of the startup company (Groundwork) that Eric Schmidt (former Google CEO) created for the Clinton campaign to do exactly the same kind of data analytics?

    “There are a lot of people who can write big checks,” Slaby says. “Eric recognizes how the technology he’s been building his whole career can be applied to different spaces. The idea of tech as a force multiplier is something he deeply understands.” https://qz.com/520652/groundwo...

  35. Evolution of reason by oh2 · · Score: 1
    Its like this with everything new, first we see the benefits and rejoice. We ridicule dissenters and pooh at their naivety only to realize a few years later that they had a point and we were being naive. Since by then some have learned to bend the relatively benign into something malignant and corrosive and we have to learn to deal with it.

    Primates, eh?

    --

    Now the world has gone to bed, Darkness won't engulf my head, I can see by infra-red, How I hate the night.

  36. Evil Billionairez Hijacked teh Democracy!!! by clonehappy · · Score: 1

    Anything to deflect the blame anywhere else but themselves. Liberals really ARE just like small children. Wonder what next month's excuse will be?

  37. This isn't new. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    As a low level volunteer on a campaign I heard of a voter database that linked magazine subscriptions etc. Welcome to the 90s.

  38. Also at ground zero of District 6 run in Georgia by mpercy · · Score: 1

    And what I'm seeing is millions and millions of dollars being funneled into the Democrat's coffers from outside the district. Speaking of outside the district, he does not live int he district and so he's not eligible to vote in the district in which he is running. Some 95% of his campaign funding is coming from outside of Georgia, mostly New York and California. He outspent his opponents by multiple millions in the jungle primary (most of them had campaign spending of about $400K, he spent $8M+).

    Almost all of his commercials and mailings fail to mention the word "Democrat", in a concerted effort to try to convince voters he is something other than a hand-picked minion of the Party. He inflates his resume to make it seem like he is a national security expert (he was an intern still in college for much of the time-span claimed) and anti-corruption (but he is supported by Nancy Pelosi).

    If he wins, it will certainly be an example of a seat being bought by outside funding throwing piles of money into the campaign--ironically funded largely by people who despise Citizen's United ruling. Money can certainly make a difference.

    The main reason he may actually win, though, is that his Republican opponent is Hillary-esque in her own negatives and there is about zero enthusiasm to get her elected.

  39. Legitimate question... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    So this psyops operation persuaded Obama voters to stay home? Isn't that the claim?
    I mean, had Clinton secured the same votes as Obama, she would have won.

    Are we sure that the problem wasn't a politically weak, out-of-touch candidate under a party that failed to listen to its own constituents and manipulated their own run-offs while refusing to come to terms with existence of the disconnect?

    1. Re:Legitimate question... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Ignore the US politics lure, the real problem was the firm's involvement with the stupid Brexit.

  40. Archer sez... by Entrope · · Score: 2

    Seriously, are we not doing Betteridge's Law any more?

  41. I'd say the vast majority of you are victims by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Both the left and right wing, and the various private organisation that feed off the power of those governments, are doing this.

    Its not just the 'evil' right wing.

    Traditional news outlets are part of it - The Guardian are in bed with this type of profiling and influence as part of the left wing.

    Facebook (so social media) is just the latest mechanism, and its even more effective.

    Media (in all forms and by all sponsors) have driven a wedge in between the right and left, forcing you down one path or another, and almost every single person reading this post is not able to critically think about anything political. Its turned us all into morons, sheep that follow a path that we are convinced is our own.

  42. Soros by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0, Insightful

    Yawn.

    The left can start complaining about people like this after George Soros is hanged for crimes against humanity and the murders, riots, and more he's caused through his various NPOs.

  43. Democracy can be "hijacked"? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Doesn't that prove that democracy itself is fatally flawed?

    If democracy is broken at such a fundamental level, then it's time to seriously re-examine, and probably dismantle, the institutional power structures which have been established using "democracy" as an excuse.

  44. Stop. Just stop. by Trondheim · · Score: 2

    Can we stop with the Trump conspiracy theories already? The facts are that Clinton was an completely undesirable candidate, and conservatives were tired of Obama's progressive policies (and being called names anytime they disagreed). Is that so hard to understand?

    1. Re:Stop. Just stop. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Can we stop with the Trump conspiracy theories already? The facts are that Clinton was an completely undesirable candidate, and conservatives were tired of Obama's progressive policies (and being called names anytime they disagreed). Is that so hard to understand?

      Clinton was an undesirable candidate; I supported Sanders in the primary, and voted Johnson in the General...

      However, this does not preclude the possibility of voters being manipulated via the use of big data.

    2. Re:Stop. Just stop. by king+neckbeard · · Score: 1

      True, but before we start blaming big data boogeymen, which isn't easy to confirm the efficacy of (perfect for scapegoats), why not focus on the more objective issues that clearly would have been able to swing the election. She was the most unpopular candidate ever, save Trump, and ran the least-issue driven campaign in the millennium. She ignored all of the people telling her the things she needed to do to win, and screwed over the most popular politician in the country to make sure she would lose to the least popular.

      --
      This is my signature. There are many like it, but this one is mine.
    3. Re:Stop. Just stop. by whitroth · · Score: 2

      I wanted Sanders. I really don't like Clinton.

      However, like most of us, we voted for her. Or did you happen to miss the small detail that SHE WON THE POPULAR VOTE BY ALMOST THREE MILLION?

      So shut up. And the rest of you, oh, right, next you're going to tell me that we don't need new laws to protect democracy from modern tech... and you probably believe that Diebold "I'll deliver OH for Bush" all-electronic voting machines didn't lie, and that you don't need recounts other than "tell the spreadsheet to give me the result again".

      In other words, you libertidiots don't actually believe in democracy, you want plutocracy, and figure you're going to be a plutocrat any day now, if you just work a little harder.

      Clue: you're reading and posting here. No, you won't become a billionaire, you're just a sucker.

    4. Re:Stop. Just stop. by king+neckbeard · · Score: 1

      I actually WANT a progressive agenda to get passed. That's why I DON'T want horrible candidates like Clinton to run, because they put us at risk of electing people like Trump, even though ~60% of the country hates him too. Had the Democratic nominee literally been a ham sandwich, it probably could have beaten Trump by TEN MILLION votes.

      There are tons of problems with our elections, and I'm not opposed to considering concrete solutions to them. Ideally, we should have something like 2FA IRV blockchain voting. That's far more concrete than anything being proposed by the fearmongerers. However, this is mostly just a smokescreen so the whores in the Dem party don't have to stop taking corporate money. That, and scary clickbait so an "expert" can rake in a lot of money to not do anything but maybe make our elections even more susceptible to hacking or interference.

      --
      This is my signature. There are many like it, but this one is mine.
  45. This is an assault on our very humanity by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Insightful

    When informed about mass surveillance and privacy issues many people respond that they have "nothing to hide". My response to them is that they may have no criminal activity to hide, but with all that information they can be me manipulated without knowing it. I give the example of a first date. If you know what the person likes and dislikes before the date you can easily shape your approach to the evening, presenting yourself to be as pleasing as possible.

    Well put, nuanced point. Unfortunately, I tend to find people who use the "I have nothing to hide" don't do nuance well. What does seem to get through to them is the following: "Do you mind taking a dump in the middle of 5th Avenue/Main Street/The High Street? No? Why not? What have you got to hide?" Privacy is a right and a requirement for decent quality of living, irrespective of whether or not you "have anything to hide." And there are lots of reasons to legitimately have something to hide: childhood sexual abuse, escaping an abusive and dangerous partner, a foolish act committed as a teenager or young adult that would mar your reputation or prevent you from obtaining gainful employment (e.g. driving drunk, or experimenting with drugs, or whatever other nonsense young people often get mixed up in before they're old or wise enough to know better), and so on.

    This isn't just an assault on our democracy. It's an assault on our humanity.
     

    1. Re:This is an assault on our very humanity by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I don't think you're doing nuance well either. I have nothing at all to gain by taking a dump in the middle of main street. I have a potentially more secure country to gain by giving up some privacy, which is fine by me.

      Sounds to me like you want to trade our national security for a personal free pass on stupid shit you've done and rather than say that, you claim your privacy is your 'humanity' - funny. Also, the ship has sailed on your privacy - your reputation is already fragile just as you've described and most people traded that just so they could have facebook, yet aren't willing to make the same deal when it's for something a little more important, like national security.

  46. One Question by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Why did the globalist SJW jew who owns facebook decide to use it to corrupt democracy to promote Trump? Even after they were caught altering trending lists to support the Hilldawg.

    The left can't internalize it's failures - blame whitey for everything.

  47. The Lithuania by mi · · Score: 1

    as well as Lithuania and the Ukraine

    Either the article belongs in front of "Lithuania" as well, or it does not belong in front of "Ukraine".

    --
    In Soviet Washington the swamp drains you.
  48. Re:No. Next question. by coastwalker · · Score: 1

    Read my signature

    --
    Facts are history now plebs have politics for religion on social media.
  49. They Know Nothing by oldgraybeard · · Score: 1

    About Me, I don't have a Facebook account. And I usually vote ;)

  50. Here is a company that does a thing by lowkeyknight · · Score: 1

    They were paid a whole lot of money by people who would benefit from the thing they do, and therefore we assume they did the thing they do.
    Immediate response: They didn't do the thing, and even if they did it didn't work, and it was the fault of your woman that she lost, not the thing they did that is a bit totalitarian and scary and I totally oppose. I'm not wrong! My thoughts are my own. Proven psy-ops techniques don't work on ME! My side is anti-psy-ops-style-totalitarian-government-intrusion and would never do the thing. They clearly paid the company for puppies and flowers!

    1. Re:Here is a company that does a thing by king+neckbeard · · Score: 1

      Did this company make Clinton vote for the Iraq War, Patriot Act, support Wall Street, help craft TPP, oppose the fight for the 15, say single-payer will never happen, run the least issue-based campaign in modern US history, and advocate that the media take "Pied Piper" Trump seriously, to the tune of $2 billion in free air time?

      --
      This is my signature. There are many like it, but this one is mine.
    2. Re:Here is a company that does a thing by lowkeyknight · · Score: 1

      No, they did their thing. It's one thing to say there were other factors. Because of course there were other factors. It's another thing entirely to say that such huge sums of money spent on massive data gathering with vast and advanced algorithms that have been extensively tested had no effect whatsoever.
      Of course it was not the only factor in most people's decision making. But it's entirely possible that such techniques had a non-trivial impact.
      Advertising works.
      Targeted advertising works.
      Psyops work.
      The nature of the electoral college is such that such techniques can almost certainly identify with extremely narrow focus the people who can be convinced and who need to be convinced to swing the college and allow them to be targeted.
      This cannot be a surprise or even contentious to a slashdot reader.
      What I find amusing is the outright denial of everyone here (many who clearly did not read the article) that this did not happen or influence either the reader personally or the result, when if it were a theoretical discussion, or no claim of the operation being used in the US election were made, everyone would have very different position.

    3. Re:Here is a company that does a thing by king+neckbeard · · Score: 1

      Big data is great at some things, horrible at others, and sometimes a mix of both. In many markets, including advertising, they almost never have a real clue at how effective it is. You may recall Pepsi recently releasing an ad that bit them in the ass because advertising doesn't always work. It's even harder to say conclusively what degree of effect this had in politics, because Trump and Brexit are two of the worst indicators we have. There were so many larger factors involved, and both involved horribly planned gambits by multiple parties. Hell, the only reason that Trump had ANY success was because the donors told him no, and convinced him to run on being above money in politics, and some of Brexit's proponents weren't even expecting to win.

      Clinton ran an awful campaign and was an awful candidate. That isn't just my opinion, that's by the numbers. It's also obvious to anyone outside of the Democratic establishment's wishful delusions that we fucking hated Clinton in '08, and she hasn't done anything to change that perception other than not being in so much of a spotlight. That buffed her numbers when she started the campaign, but when people started to remember what she was like, her numbers kept sinking.

      Slashdot isn't collectively saying that it had zero effect. Anything to that effect is probably a reaction to this idea being vastly oversold by clickbait articles, in conjunction with the Dem establishment refusing to admit that they backed a goddamn train wreck, and played a major role in electing the least popular candidate ever. Instead, they look for scapegoats, whether it's Russia, Comey, Wikileaks, Sanders/Bernie Bros, racism, or big data.

      Could big data have had a large enough effect to swing the election? Sure, but you'd get ten times the effect if Clinton had simply took the popular stance of descheduling marijuana, actually visiting the Rust Belt, or picking a VP that wasn't the dictionary definition of milquetoast. Or even, y'know, not having a candidate that half of the country has been indoctrinated to hate for decades.

      --
      This is my signature. There are many like it, but this one is mine.
    4. Re:Here is a company that does a thing by lowkeyknight · · Score: 1

      I'm not defending Clinton. she screwed up in many ways. I'm just saying she also lost the big data arms race and that's THIS conversation.

    5. Re:Here is a company that does a thing by king+neckbeard · · Score: 1

      How do we know that she lost the big data arms race? What we know is that she lost the electoral college, and she ignored plenty of low hanging fruit that the data clearly supported, like the Sanders platform parts her and her cronies fought against, which enjoy around 70% support. How much the big data for Trump vs. the big data for Clinton affected the results is very difficult to tell, especially without access to all that data ourselves. The Berniecrats in the Rust Belt were screaming that she needed to get there because there was serious trouble, but she ignored that data.

      Trump did have one major data advantage, but it had nothing to do with this company. It had to do with him not spending decades in the DC bubble, meaning that he wasn't COMPLETELY tone-deaf to how the rest of the country thinks. Not that he was great at it, but the bar was set so low by his GOP opponents, as well as his GOP-lite opponent, that in that respect, he seemed like Stephen Hawking.

      --
      This is my signature. There are many like it, but this one is mine.
  51. I thought Russia hacked the election by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Now they're saying facebook did it? lolol

    1. Re:I thought Russia hacked the election by lastman71 · · Score: 1

      I suppose that lolol is a way to say: "sorry, I can't read. But still I'm going to make comment about the article, even if I don't know what is about"

  52. Most ridiculous part of this post by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    "In the U.S., the government is bound by strict laws about what data it can collect on individuals."

    If you believe that, I have virtual real estate in my home Sims desktop to sell you.

  53. Come on everybody... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    The conspiracy train is in full motion. Next month: How aliens sabotaged the Hillary campaign in exchange for mars.

  54. No we need intelligent thought by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Instead of blaming big evil shadowy corporations, we need to admit that we ran a slimy crook who publically admitted that she despised half the populations. No big evil right-wing conspiracy

    1. Re:No we need intelligent thought by HornWumpus · · Score: 1

      Remember 4 and 8 years ago the same media that ran this story was praising Obama's '21st century, internet based campaign'. Which was the _exact_ same thing.

      --
      John McAfee 'It was like that time I hired that Bangkok prostitute; to do my taxes, while I fucked my accountant'
  55. How to vote: by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    ...vote for the person only mentioned in passing on the news

  56. Urgh... by cshark · · Score: 1

    Look, just because this is a left leaning piece, does not mean that it isn't a steaming pile of Alex Jones conspiracy claptrap.

    None of this even makes sense, if you believe people have agency.

    If you don't believe people have agency, you're in a world of hurt already, at least in terms of politics, and it's going to get worse. You'll have to come up with a dozen reasons, other than Liberals have lost the ability to sell their talking points to the public, in order to explain what is about to happen. The 2018 midterms are going to be an absolute bloodbath for the Left, if my numbers are right, which they have been.

    Social media works well as a predictor, but not necessarily as an influencer. Studies have shown that nobody changes their minds because of what they see on Facebook or Twitter. If you think that's what might be happening, I'm sorry, but you're wrong.

    Rather, it makes more sense to use the tools to predict, and reflect -- which is all they're suited to do. There's a lot that can be done there.

    --

    This signature has Super Cow Powers

  57. Re:Also at ground zero of District 6 run in Georgi by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    And what I'm seeing is millions and millions of dollars being funneled into the Democrat's coffers from outside the district.

    And millions and millions of dollars being funneled into the Republican's coffers from outside the district, so...

    Speaking of outside the district, he does not live int he district and so he's not eligible to vote in the district in which he is running.

    Strange how you don't mention how he was born and raised in Northlake, Georgia, raised there, and he currently lives near Emory University (just a few minutes outside the district) because his...girlfriend is attending medical school there. What a carpet-bagger.

    Especially compared to Karen Handel, who has been bouncing around the country and world, doing wonderful things like cutting off breast cancer funding because she hated Planned Parenthood. That all the investigations she cited came up bupkus, well...

    Some 95% of his campaign funding is coming from outside of Georgia, mostly New York and California. He outspent his opponents by multiple millions in the jungle primary (most of them had campaign spending of about $400K, he spent $8M+).

    Money talks, and you know it. The GOP is only jealous they didn't have a standard-bearer.

    Almost all of his commercials and mailings fail to mention the word "Democrat", in a concerted effort to try to convince voters he is something other than a hand-picked minion of the Party.

    Oh no, he's not mentioning the word "Democrat" as if that were a meaningful argument.

    He inflates his resume to make it seem like he is a national security expert (he was an intern still in college for much of the time-span claimed) and anti-corruption (but he is supported by Nancy Pelosi).

    ah, still upset over Nancy Pelosi? The GOP's hate-on for her is so legendary, they use her to attack anyone, even DONALD TRUMP, who has been photographed with her on multiple suspicious occasions.

    It's why they misquoted her for so long. Meanwhile they actually did pass a bill they admitted they didn't read.

    If he wins, it will certainly be an example of a seat being bought by outside funding throwing piles of money into the campaign--ironically funded largely by people who despise Citizen's United ruling. Money can certainly make a difference.

    Individuals can hate Citizen's United, while still loving their impact.

    The main reason he may actually win, though, is that his Republican opponent is Hillary-esque in her own negatives and there is about zero enthusiasm to get her elected.

    And Trump. Trump's wonderful support.

  58. Here's my question by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Did a submitter pose a question in the title as a way to make an accusation he has no basis for?

  59. pot calling the thimble black by ooloorie · · Score: 1

    Those claims are ridiculous in light of what actually happened:

    Hillary Clinton, with her sophisticated, very expensive data analytics machine, won the popular vote by the slimmest of margins on Election Day. But Donald Trump, with his reality-TV-tested, carnival-barker sense of what people wanted to hear, was able to find a path through America’s Rust Belt to a stunning electoral college victory.

    He did it by tapping into emotion, not by mapping data points.

    Hillary's data-driven campaign:

    Kriegel’s anodyne title is Clinton’s director of analytics, but it’s a job that makes him, and his team of more than 60 mathematicians and analysts, something of the central nervous system for the campaign: charged with sensing, even predicting, the first tinglings of electoral trouble and then sending instructions to everyone on how to respond.

    When Clinton operatives talk about their “data-based” campaign, it’s invariably Kriegel’s data, and perhaps more importantly his models interpreting that data, they are talking about.

    Hillary was clearly targeting individual voters and groups.

  60. And this is different how, exactly? by bwanagary · · Score: 1

    Mainstream media has be hijacking democracy for decades and decades, reducing it to "mob rule". This is just the new medium. Tch-tch. Welcome to the new millennium :-)

  61. This is how democracy is *supposed* to work by OldMugwump · · Score: 1

    Each side does its best to persuade voters, then the voters decide. That's how democracy is *supposed* to work, so stop freaking out about it. If you don't like it, then you don't like democracy. Which is fine, but at least have the honesty to admit it.

    --
    "Shoot, a fella could have a pretty good weekend in Vegas with all that stuff."
  62. Yes. by whitroth · · Score: 1

    And for the fools who think billionaires would have chosed Jeb... why do you think all billionaires agree? And, for that matter, do you think they all have the same resources? Thiel *does* know what he's doing, and he wanted Trump.

    Try reading the entire damn article, and tell me psyops doesn't work.

  63. More grasping at straws by zerofoo · · Score: 1

    Russia, facebook, alt-right (whatever that is). The excuses just keep coming.

    The best argument against democracy is a five-minute conversation with the average voter. - Winston Churchill

    I don't think Winston had Facebook to blame when he made his observation about the average voter.

    The sad fact is that Hillary Clinton was a highly unlikeable candidate. Even if we could fix the "fake news" problem, it would not have changed the fact that she was a terrible candidate.

    You could just as easily blame the election results on the DNC for the way they treated Bernie as you can the Russia-Facebook-Alt-right boogyeman.

    The DNC needs to take a long hard look in the mirror - that's where the blame for the election results lie.

  64. The Answer is No by OYAHHH · · Score: 1

    It was lowly people like myself who were fed up with the status quo in Washington, DC. And we busted a gut to make it happen.

    --
    Caution: Contents under pressure
  65. Red Scare all over again by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    But now it is lead by the Democrats, ohh the irony is just so delicious.

  66. Haha! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    But, it was the Russians, and Comey, and Misogyny, Wikileaks, Deplorables, Buckets of Losers, and now, Robert Mercer. This has gone from pathetic to plain stupid. Take a deep breath and get a grip. Hillary was a garbage candidate with no discernible message. She only does what she thinks will benefit herself. Example: "Stronger Together" has turned into "Resist". If she really meant the former, she'd bow out gracefully and not take up the mantra of the latter.

  67. Privacy by TheDarkener · · Score: 1

    If there was still such a thing as reasonable privacy in the "digital age", much of this would be moot. Though, it seems the current human condition is that money > privacy. And sites like Facebook, which feed off of the data of their users, is simply a cog in the machine that is driving toward erasing any trace of privacy left in the world for people who are connected to the Internet. Makes me fucking sick to my stomach.

    --
    It is pitch black. You are likely to be eaten by a grue.
  68. The difference is that in words and deeds by rsilvergun · · Score: 1

    Obama generally sided with the working class (generally, he's a politician and that means compromises). I'm not expecting the same from a billionaire. It's the difference between convincing Ayn Rand to take Social Security in her old age and her writings to convince people on SS are paracytes. There is actually a difference, ya know.

    --
    Hi! I make Firefox Plug-ins. Check 'em out @ https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/youtube-mp3-podcaster/
  69. Wolowitz syndrome by epine · · Score: 1

    Of course they know you use an ad blocker. That's one more data point they have about you ...

    It lumps you into the bucket of people with enough initiative to change the default settings on any aspect of their daily existence. You're probably an educated technocrat.

    People Who Use Firefox or Chrome Are Better Employees

    Michael Housman ... said that while the company's research hasn't identified anything to suggest causality, he does have a theory as to why this correlation exists. "I think that the fact that you took the time to install Firefox on your computer shows us something about you. It shows that you're someone who is an informed consumer .... you've made an active choice to do something that wasn't default."

    Okay, you're harder to neutralize with micro-disinformation.

    So they suck you into pointless debates about SpaceX, colonising Mars, medical nanotechnology, life extension, the AI singularity, Hayekian economics, Objectivism, or liberal save-the-world TED porn.

    Effectiveness: what you know times what you do.

    Wolowitz syndrome: able to configure an ad-blocker, but not exactly picking the right fight.
    ____

    I've already got a bit of file on Robert Mercer.

    Yachts seen close together — March 2017

    As Rene Magritte would say, "this is not a smoking gun." Not yet, anyway. Hey, that reminds me, has anyone here got a match?

    Rachel Maddow Explains "The Money Man" — August 2016

    Kellyanne Conway, who ran Robert Mercer's Super PAC, she's a very familiar figure in Republican politics.

    What Kind of Man Spends Millions to Elect Ted Cruz? — January 2016

    Working with his daughter Rebekah, he's spent tens of millions more to advance a conservative agenda, investing in think tanks such as the Heritage Foundation, the media outlet Breitbart.com, and Cambridge Analytica, a data company that builds psychological profiles of voters.

    Groups he funds have attacked the science of global warming, published a book critical of Hillary Clinton, and bankrolled a documentary celebrating Ayn Rand.

  70. Mouth Foaming Liberals by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    This is genuinely funny!

    There is an identifiable breed of right wing commentator who actually fits this description. We all know who they are. Fox likes them certainly, so does talk radio, some have migrated to their own websites or specialist Alt-Right websites.

    Here's the APB description:

    1). White;
    2). Male;
    3). Usually middle-aged or older;
    4). Gets red-faced during a good rant;
    5). Excited enough to spit, though this does not usually get captured by the medium;
    6). Liberally sprinkles their tirade with terms like "Social Justice Warrior", "Libtard", "Extreme Socialist", "Freedom", "The American Way", "Second Amendment Rights", "Illegals", "Crime", "Terrorism", "Threats", "Feminazi", etc.
    7). Knows what they like and what they like is exactly like themselves. Thus "A Good Guy" is white, male, middle-aged or older, dislikes immigrants, women are fine but feminists are not, ...

  71. The Avenger Initiative will not succeed. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Hail Hydra!

  72. Your country by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Is stupid.

  73. Presidential Qualifications by mi · · Score: 1

    I would have

    The question was not for you, but for the AC, who suddenly decided, long experience is important to being the President of the US.

    But you wish to talk about Sarah Palin:

    Instead, he chose someone with no experience, qualifications or talent to be his running mate.

    Sorry, I just couldn't support putting someone like Palin a heartbeat away from the presidency

    Unlike both Barack Obama and Joseph Biden (and even John McCain), Sarah Palin actually did have executive experience — she previously ran her town as a mayor and her State as a governor. So, on the subject of experience you are objectively and verifiably wrong. Four Pinocchios...

    "Talent" and "qualifications" are subjective, so I'm not going to go there.

    like usual it was a choice between a turd and a douche.

    No, after the Democratic primaries, where the two opposed each other, Obama was the turd and Biden was the douche. And you helped the nation elect both, while leaving the unarguably more experienced (and arguably qualified and talented) team out. Something to tell your grandchildren about...

    --
    In Soviet Washington the swamp drains you.
    1. Re:Presidential Qualifications by Enigma2175 · · Score: 1

      Unlike both Barack Obama and Joseph Biden (and even John McCain), Sarah Palin actually did have executive experience — she previously ran her town as a mayor and her State as a governor. So, on the subject of experience you are objectively and verifiably wrong [imgflip.com]. Four Pinocchios...

      Please, she was the mayor of a town of 7000 people and the governor of a state with fewer people than 47 of the 50 states (around 700,000 people, fewer than many congressional districts) for less than 2 years before the election and couldn't even finish that job. Contrast with Obama, who was an Illinois state senator for 8 years, representing around the same number of people as Alaska has in total, and a US senator 4 years, representing around 6 million people. You are really touting being the mayor of Wasilla as "executive experience"? This shows me you aren't interested in reasoned discussion, you are so blindly partisan that it's not worth the effort.

      --

      Enigma

  74. It's only a Hijack if it involves Trump by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    You anti-trumpers are deranged. >shadowy >dystopian. The only thing dystopian is socialism.

  75. il principe by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Niccolo Machiavelli understood all these things, these methods are 600+ years old...

  76. Re:No. Next question. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I love you people. Lonely losers who want to share that little offtopic piece of themselves. Maybe someone will understand me, talk to me, love me - please read my thought of the day. Pleeeeeze. So alone - just read this - I'm beautiful inside, ignore the outside.

    Go read your own signature nerd. Don't no one care what you think or what you are. We are here to have a discussion on the article and your thought of the day. Stay ugly loser. We need more clowns.

  77. Equality? by martinfb · · Score: 1

    Where is there any equality in this sort of thing?

    How is it fair for entities (with lots of money) to go collecting data for the purpose of toying with psyches
    with hopes of effectively brainwashing into serving their wishes?

    How is it fair for entities to go collecting data at all without knowledge AND permission from the subjects?

    I reserve the Right to protect myself from any and all things that threaten any part of my privacy and freedom.
    This includes any psychological attempts on any part of psyches!

    --


    Self-importance and self-indulgence is the root of ALL evil.